0:11 Hello and welcome back to today's
0:13 episode. My name is Ron Simpson. I'm a
0:15 creative entrepreneur from Amsterdam and
0:17 we have a stellar lineup of guests as
0:20 promised with today Der Feltzman and I
0:22 know how to pronounce that because we
0:23 are both in the Netherlands at the
0:25 moment. How are you doing?
0:27 >> I'm doing well, thanks Ron. Lovely to be
0:28 with you.
0:29 >> It's amazing to have you here. We're
0:31 going to take a deep dive into the world
0:34 of talent acquisition, AI, workforce
0:36 strategy, and absolutely everything in
0:37 between. I hope you're ready for that.
0:39 There's going to be some jokes, too. I'm
0:42 just warning you. Um cuz it's, you know,
0:44 we're listening to get inspired. We're
0:45 listening to hear all this news and
0:47 insights, but we're also we just want to
0:49 be entertained a little bit as well. So,
0:51 from data to disruption, we're covering
0:54 it all. Please buckle up and let's get
0:57 ready. Um cuz I've heard like I've read
0:59 your bio and I've read absolutely
1:00 everything. But for everyone who's been
1:02 living under a rock that doesn't know
1:04 the academy or the fact that you're a
1:06 professor in South Africa and doing all
1:08 this cool [ __ ] could you explain
1:11 exactly who you are and what you do? As
1:14 if we were at a party.
1:17 >> As if we were at a party. Right. So um I
1:19 would probably start by saying I'm the
1:22 the chief HR scientist at the Academy to
1:24 Innovate HR. And as much as I would love
1:26 to say that that means I do some freaky
1:28 experiments in a lab somewhere, that's
1:29 actually not what it means.
1:30 >> Are you sure?
1:32 >> Well, maybe from time to time, right?
1:34 >> Okay. Yeah, let's keep it real.
1:36 >> From my side, that means I am
1:38 responsible for a we're a a platform
1:40 focused on career development for HR
1:42 professionals globally. and I'm
1:44 responsible for a lot of our insights
1:46 work, a lot of our thought leadership um
1:48 as well as then understanding what are
1:49 the challenges that our clients are
1:51 facing in the HR world and how can we
1:52 help them solve through skills
1:55 development going forward. So a little
1:56 bit boring probably for a party that
1:58 last part but uh that's typically what I
2:00 get up to.
2:02 >> I wouldn't say it's it's uh it's boring.
2:03 I would say it's long. I don't know if
2:06 that fits on a business card but you
2:09 know I get that. And um now besides that
2:11 like personally and and how would you
2:13 describe yourself as a person cuz we're
2:14 talking human capital.
2:17 >> Yeah, of course. Right. So I think I'm
2:19 uh somebody that's fascinated by the
2:21 behavior of other human beings whether
2:23 that's in their personal lives or in
2:25 their professional lives. Someone that
2:27 loves the outdoors, love nature. Um and
2:30 yeah, just kind of love to see how
2:31 people set up their lives and the
2:33 decisions that they make that makes them happy.
2:34 happy.
2:36 >> Cool. So, I want to talk a lot about
2:38 strategy and innovation with you today.
2:41 Um, but obviously it's also a lot about
2:43 resumes and who you know that type of
2:44 stuff. So,
2:46 >> I'm sure you have a very long resume,
2:48 but what would be the top three shining
2:50 items on it?
2:53 >> Yeah. So, I mean, I have a little bit of
2:55 a I think a very diverse career. So,
2:56 maybe let me put it that way that the
2:59 three shiny items would be on the one
3:00 side. I have a bit of an academic
3:02 career. So I am a professor of practice
3:04 which means that I lecture and involved
3:07 in a lot of research priorities. The
3:09 second part is I am an ex- chief HR
3:11 officer. So I looked after a global
3:12 business from an HR point of view
3:14 looking after Asia, Africa and the
3:16 United Kingdom. And on the other side I
3:18 am the chief scientist as I mentioned at
3:20 AIHR. So building a lot of frameworks
3:22 about the future of HR and the future of
3:24 work. And I'm a published author. I've
3:26 just released um a book a couple of
3:28 months ago and there's another two on
3:29 the way that will release before the end
3:31 of 2025.
3:33 >> Holy [ __ ] Okay. So, do I call you chief
3:35 from now on or can I just say diet?
3:37 >> DA is perfectly okay. No worries.
3:40 >> Okay, that's great. Okay, so we've
3:42 discussed all that shines on your
3:44 resume, which is quite a lot. What would
3:46 be the one thing that should actually be
3:48 on there that is not on there? What do
3:51 we need to know about you also
3:53 professionally or or something? Are you
3:56 amazing at, I don't know, folding paper
3:59 planes or saving the world or running backwards?
4:00 backwards?
4:03 >> Uh, I think I am amazing at seeing how
4:05 other people have designed wonderful
4:07 PowerPoint slides and then reusing them
4:09 for myself without having to design them
4:12 uh on on my own. So,
4:13 >> chief artist,
4:16 >> well, the the chief collector of other
4:18 people's art. Let me put it that way.
4:20 >> I would definitely put that on resume.
4:22 That sounds like you're saving me time.
4:25 you know, that that's just that's that's
4:28 a smart thing to do. Um, so yeah, are
4:30 you ready to dive right in? Are you
4:32 ready to, you know, get the people what
4:34 they want, which is kind of important, I
4:36 think. Um, because there's a big
4:38 question like when it comes to the whole
4:40 transformation of talent acquisition,
4:43 right? There's a lot going on. Um,
4:45 workforce strategy, the whole AI thing,
4:47 the automatization thing, the shortage
4:49 thing, like everyone in the world is
4:51 looking at all these trends and
4:55 problems. um how do you think you as a
4:57 person or you with your company or
4:59 wherever you uh partner up with make an
5:02 actual impact and in which part of these
5:03 fields would that be?
5:05 >> Yeah, great question. Right. So, as I
5:08 said before, our universe is the human
5:10 resources professional and I define that
5:11 very broadly, right? It's people working
5:13 in talent, people working in learning
5:15 and development, in HR and in
5:16 organizational development. for
5:18 basically anybody that's working in the
5:20 people's science. I think we make a
5:22 massive difference in helping and
5:24 enabling those people to have the skills
5:26 to guide and help their organizations in
5:28 the times that we find ourselves. So to
5:30 make that really practical, you know,
5:32 when we have to talk about how is AI
5:34 going to impact an organization, there
5:37 has to be a people science HR person in
5:39 the room that says but that's got a real
5:41 impact on people and we make a
5:42 contribution about giving that
5:44 particular individual the skill sets
5:46 that they require to be confident in
5:47 those conversations. So for me it's very
5:49 much around how do we prepare the HR
5:52 workforce to guide the organizations and
5:53 to kind of shape that next chapter of
5:56 work. So very much inside out, right?
5:57 You look from a company strategy and you
5:59 say, "Hey, these are the tools you will
6:01 need to make sure that you are futurep
6:03 proof with everything that is coming."
6:05 >> Yeah. And I think it goes both ways,
6:07 right? So inside out, how do we give you
6:08 the skill to be able to have that
6:10 impact? And then outside in, what's
6:11 happening in the external world that
6:13 then feeds the new things that you need
6:15 to learn um over time. So for me it's
6:17 all about you know if somebody walks to
6:19 me up to me in a couple of years time
6:20 and said you know the stuff that you and
6:23 AHR did made me relevant and impactful I
6:25 think we would have done a great job.
6:26 >> Well that sounds like a compliment to
6:30 get. Do you think um like for any
6:32 company at the moment is would it be a
6:34 strategy based on like the most
6:36 brilliant and most talented and best
6:38 people in the world or just a really
6:41 good strategy that could give tools to,
6:43 you know, a way bigger group than that
6:45 to actually get the work done?
6:46 >> Yeah, I have a I have a lovehate
6:48 relationship with strategy, right? So, I
6:50 think it's something that we spend a
6:52 hell of a lot of time on, but I think we
6:54 don't necessarily translate that into
6:56 the day-to-day practical realities of
6:57 what are we going to do. Let's be
6:59 honest, strategy crafting is not that
7:01 difficult. We can all come up with great
7:03 plans, but are we able to translate them
7:05 into what we need now and how we shift
7:07 and move the organization forward? I
7:10 think we are at an interesting point in,
7:11 you know, how organizations think about
7:13 their future with things like AI, etc.,
7:15 around what does that next chapter for
7:16 them look like and how they're going to
7:19 get there. I personally don't think it's
7:20 just a couple of brilliant minds that'll
7:22 get us there. I think we are actually
7:24 facing an era where it's about workforce
7:27 transformation and who the workforce is
7:28 and who's going to be doing the work
7:30 going forward. And you know, an example
7:32 I always love to use is we we talk about
7:34 how AI is going to impact work and it
7:36 most definitely will. So what are we
7:38 going to do with regards to the global
7:39 workforce because this is
7:41 >> sorry let's go back for for you know I'm
7:44 a very simple person. You just said 70 70
7:45 70
7:47 >> 70%. there's a still a lot of people
7:50 that are not operating in this domain
7:51 that we talk about whenever we talk
7:53 about the digital reality of the world.
7:55 Now a lot of that sure sits in the
7:56 developing world but when we look at how
7:58 economies are also growing and where a
8:00 massive opportunity is in future those
8:02 are the types of markets that we should
8:04 also be talking about. So I think it's
8:06 not just a couple it's about how do we
8:07 do this for the broader masses and what
8:09 that's going to look like. That's an
8:11 interesting take because it feels like
8:13 all these problem shifts and trends are
8:15 are sort of in a bubble and actually if
8:18 70% is outside of that is that also what
8:22 holds a lot of businesses back like you
8:23 can figure out how to be cutting edge
8:25 for everything and everyone inside of
8:27 that bubble when it comes to innovation
8:30 or automization or use of AI but
8:32 sometimes you know people look at
8:33 companies and they're like why didn't
8:35 they just make this big strategic move
8:37 or why didn't they use this tool is this
8:38 one of the reasons
8:40 >> I I think it most definitely is and and
8:42 think about it from the external point
8:44 of view it also means that a whole bunch
8:46 of your consumers are not yet operating
8:47 in that domain right so I think as a
8:49 company target market will shift a lot
8:51 in future and then from the internal
8:53 point of view you know I think sometimes
8:55 we we forget that there's still a very
8:57 big part of the workforce if you think
8:59 frontline blue collar etc that don't
9:01 necessarily operate in all these
9:02 different domains and I think we need to
9:04 think very holistically about that we've
9:06 been skewed towards workforce
9:09 innovations being very knowledge worker
9:11 based um and that's not the majority of
9:13 the people um you know that that
9:14 actually forms part of the workforce and
9:16 I think it is an inhibiting factor and
9:19 we are at a tipping point where
9:20 >> the great innovations we seeing now
9:22 around technology and talent and all
9:23 those things can either bring us
9:25 together and I think build a stronger
9:27 future or it can continue to divide us
9:30 even further and I think that's the big
9:31 risk that we need to ask ourselves kind
9:34 of at a macro and societal level
9:37 >> so yeah do we want AI and tech to create
9:40 you know even more space between workers
9:43 and thinkers right very very simply said
9:45 um I think that's a very interesting
9:48 insight you also said 70% is not online
9:50 so trends outside of the bubble are
9:53 interesting as well if AI tech
9:55 automatization shortage and all these
9:57 things would be part of that bubble
9:59 which trends would you see outside of
10:02 that bubble what is going on in that 70%
10:03 that is not online
10:05 >> yeah I think you know there's still a
10:07 very strong reality and I sometimes
10:08 smile. You know, whenever we talk about
10:10 things like employee value propositions,
10:13 people work for different reasons and
10:14 they work to get different things done,
10:16 right? So, for some people, it's a
10:17 vocation. They just love what they do.
10:19 It's the reason they wake up. For other
10:21 people, work is a reality because I need
10:23 to feed my family and this is what was
10:25 available in my current context and in
10:27 my particular environment. So, I think
10:29 there's also trends with the
10:30 relationship that people have with work
10:32 is starting to change and that fits
10:34 outside of that bubble. Happens there as
10:35 well. But I think it's actually
10:37 shifting, you know, to go a lot more
10:39 beyond that. Um, and I think it will be
10:41 interesting to see cuz for me in the
10:42 talent market, what's going to be
10:44 interesting over the years to come is
10:46 how does that relationship shift between
10:48 employers and employees and the
10:49 decisions that people make around why I
10:51 want to work for a particular company
10:53 because maybe it's the only company in
10:55 my community I've got no other choice,
10:56 but that's got a significant impact on
10:59 my engagement and my motivation. or if I
11:01 do have a different choice, am I willing
11:02 enough to vote with my feet and go
11:04 elsewhere if, you know, this isn't
11:05 something that aligns with what I
11:07 actually want?
11:09 >> That's a very strong insight. Um,
11:11 Ashley, I've this whole conversation
11:13 with you up until now has been one big
11:16 aha moment for me, right? I'm like, aha.
11:19 Okay, so this makes sense. Um, what
11:21 would have been your aha moment? I mean,
11:23 you you're, you know, in the trenches,
11:25 you're all the way deep inside of this
11:28 industry. um which tool or strategy or
11:32 move or even thought or concept gave you
11:35 a real aha moment when it comes to you
11:37 know moving forward within HR.
11:39 >> So I think there's a you know there's
11:41 maybe a couple there. Um I think maybe
11:44 the first aha insight especially in the
11:46 HR space was I think we haven't done a
11:49 great job over the years of redefining
11:51 what HR's mandate is going to be in the
11:53 future of work. So practically what do I
11:55 mean by that is very often you know and
11:56 that's why I smiled at the beginning
11:57 when you asked me you know how would I
11:59 describe myself at a party if somebody
12:01 asks you very few HR professionals are
12:03 kind of standing up proud to say you
12:05 know I am in HR because what's the
12:07 response you get you know can you look
12:09 at my CV do you have opportunities you
12:10 know I'm struggling with a really difficult
12:10 difficult
12:12 >> I was just about to ask could you take a
12:13 look at my
12:14 >> exactly right so it's very much still
12:17 the higher fire mentality that a lot of
12:19 people have but that yes that's part of
12:21 what HR does but HR is so much more than
12:24 that today. So that for me was a massive
12:27 insight that not everybody sees HR for
12:29 the value driver that it can be and very
12:31 often that it's the baggage of the past
12:33 that holds it back. I never realized how
12:35 that actually plays out in practice
12:37 because you know you deal a lot with the
12:39 strategic work from HR, strategic
12:41 talent, etc. But for a lot of people
12:43 that reality is still very
12:45 transactional, very operational, still
12:47 you know they jump into the boardroom
12:49 when I see HR coming because it means
12:51 I'm in trouble. So that was quite a, you
12:53 know, I think a big insight for me. Um, yeah.
12:53 yeah.
12:55 >> Okay. Yeah. Cuz it always feels like HR
12:58 is for the company and they always say
12:59 we're for the people, right? So I think
13:01 that that also for me personally when I
13:02 used to work in corporate that was
13:05 always the vibe. Um, and I'm a marketeteer.
13:06 marketeteer.
13:07 >> I believe everything is marketing
13:10 anyway. So I've personally seen quite a
13:13 big rebranding of HR lately. I don't
13:16 think I've heard the word HR um at a
13:18 party anymore, right? people would say
13:20 all kinds of different things like I
13:22 work in human capital or I work in
13:23 >> you know
13:24 >> no you're right I think you know I've
13:27 I've often said um you know HR
13:29 departments have got a PR problem um
13:30 because I think you need to some
13:33 repositioning on your reputation etc and
13:35 it you know it's fine for me if we
13:36 change the name whether we call it
13:37 people and culture whether we call it
13:39 human capital whether we call it you
13:42 know operations people experience etc
13:44 but are we fundamentally changing the
13:46 mandate and the type of work we do with
13:48 the rebranding of the name. Otherwise,
13:49 it just feels like the same old thing,
13:51 but we're just dressing it up in a new
13:53 sexy term, which I don't think helps in
13:56 >> lipstick on a pig. There we go. Finally
13:58 that one in context. Uh yeah, just
14:00 changing packaging. I mean, that that's
14:01 not good enough, right? We need a
14:04 product to move. So, I know you don't
14:06 have a crystal ball or at least I'm I'm
14:07 hoping you don't because life is more
14:09 fun without it. But
14:11 >> where would you see talent acquisition
14:13 and the whole HR tech heading in the
14:15 next two or three years? Yeah, I think
14:17 you know it's such an interesting time
14:18 there because I I think what we are
14:21 already starting to see is high level of
14:23 personalization starting to take place
14:24 just given some new technologies that
14:26 coming into play. So you know you
14:27 mentioned you're a marketeteer. I think
14:29 on the talent acquisition side we're
14:31 starting to take a lot of lessons from
14:32 marketing and how you actually would
14:34 nurture a customer during the different
14:36 stages of the funnel. And I think that's
14:38 fundamentally changing the way that
14:39 talent acquisition is not just about the
14:41 interviews I have and the engagements.
14:43 It's a lot more about the brand
14:44 building, the visibility, the
14:46 credibility in the market and what leads
14:48 toward that decision for people to want
14:51 to engage with you as a brand. When I
14:53 talk about the personalization pieces, I
14:54 think you're starting to deal with
14:56 talent that expects things to be more
14:59 outbound, tailored to their preferences,
15:01 a lot more targeted, and that is
15:02 definitely going to change the way that
15:04 we segment and think about the talent
15:07 market and who we trying to attract. see
15:08 different messaging from the same
15:10 organization going out to cater for
15:12 different profiles and I don't think
15:14 it's going to be a standardized
15:16 experience anymore. I think it will be
15:18 highly personalized with memorable
15:19 moments that we put out and we'll have
15:21 the technology to be able to do that at
15:23 scale and I think that's interesting to
15:24 see how it changes.
15:26 >> I think that's interesting as well. Do
15:28 you think um because of this right we're
15:32 doing more volume we're doing more uh
15:34 access points and data points to figure
15:35 out the targeting for every specific
15:37 person whether it's language or or you
15:39 know whatever it is that's a lot of work
15:43 so do you think the traditional sort of
15:48 hiring practice will be replaced by tech
15:49 >> I think a lot of it will be I think
15:51 we've already seen massive automation in
15:53 that space over the last couple of years
15:56 right and I think um in the HR space at
15:58 least with AI adoption, sourcing, talent
16:00 acquisition, recruitment has been one of
16:01 the areas that's been targeted and
16:03 focused on first. So we see a lot of use
16:06 cases in that environment already. Of
16:07 course, there's some legislative things
16:09 we need to sort out and figure out from
16:11 an ethics point of view there as well.
16:13 But I think to do high level
16:14 personalization that's data and
16:16 evidence-driven at scale, you do need a
16:18 different approach with a different
16:20 technology stack that's actually driving
16:21 that over time. And to be honest, you
16:23 need a different HR skill set that looks
16:25 at that in a very very different way.
16:27 It's not just about the process, it's
16:29 about the experience that I'm trying to
16:30 create and how can I use what I've got
16:33 available um to its utmost effect
16:35 >> or even the result right of that whole
16:37 process or the whole thing. Like it's
16:39 just we're trying to achieve something
16:42 and these are tools. Um, so for me I was
16:44 always like wondering me as a marketer I
16:45 was just looking at this market like
16:48 okay how long will it take before AI
16:50 writes a resume then sends it to an AI
16:52 who reads the resume then responds and
16:53 they're just going to have a
16:55 conversation and at the end I just walk
16:56 into a room right
16:58 >> they're like hey I think our computers
17:00 like each other let's uh let's go
17:02 >> and I mean you you're absolutely correct
17:04 that we already starting to see you know
17:06 experimentation and things like AI based
17:09 interviewing and like CV screening etc.
17:11 I sometimes wonder if the if the
17:12 converse is not going to happen around
17:14 the fact that people are going to seek
17:16 authenticity and human touch a lot more
17:18 and sure you can't do it at every single
17:20 step and every single stage of the of
17:22 the process but actually be attracted to
17:25 that a lot more. I think what's going to
17:26 be clever for organizations to think
17:29 about is for what talent in which
17:31 segment do I want to create a hightouch
17:33 experience versus where it's just about
17:35 volumes and efficiency and making sure
17:37 that I get people through you know the
17:38 pipeline and I think that's an
17:40 interesting conversation that we that we
17:42 can have that goes beyond
17:44 standardization of practice and process
17:47 um but what do I want to create
17:49 >> there's music on the streamers and
17:51 there's a vinyl record that someone
17:53 loves dearly I think it's one That's
17:55 exactly what it should be. >> Um,
17:57 >> Um,
17:59 so listen man, you're you're doing so
18:02 many things, right? On the one hand,
18:03 you're busy with innovation. On the
18:04 other hand, you're busy with tech. On
18:06 the other hand, you're teaching, you're
18:09 doing all these cool things. So, looking
18:11 ahead, um, what's currently on your
18:14 strategic work for workforce agenda,
18:18 let's say, for the next 24, 36 months?
18:20 >> Yeah, it's an interesting question,
18:21 right? I think there's a there's a
18:24 couple of things that you know I ponder
18:26 about a lot. Maybe if I can start there.
18:27 >> Okay. Yeah.
18:30 >> Right. So I I think you know rightly so
18:32 AI is all the buzz but I think over the
18:34 next 24 to 36 months it's about figuring
18:36 out how do we make it practical and
18:38 sustainable and I think there's a lot of
18:40 questions there. So on not only my plan
18:42 but also us as a business is what does
18:45 allin on AI look like for us? What does
18:46 that mean and how do we make that real
18:48 and practical for both our members and
18:50 ourselves? I think that's for me quite a
18:53 big you know a big question. The second
18:55 one is you know we play a lot in the
18:58 learning and development domain for HR
19:00 professionals and I think a big one is
19:03 we are battling for people's attention.
19:05 Um and that's become even more so. So
19:07 how do we create those meaningful
19:09 moments that matter for people in the
19:11 flow of work and in the flow of life
19:13 because I think we are competing with
19:15 various you know content channels and I
19:16 think people are getting completely
19:19 overwhelmed. So if human development is
19:20 important, where and when do we do it?
19:22 And I think that's quite an interesting one.
19:22 one.
19:24 >> And as I said before, I never I think it's
19:25 it's
19:26 >> there's never ever been a better time to
19:29 be in HR than now. But the next 24 to 36
19:32 months requires significant shifts in
19:35 mandate, how we put our operating models
19:36 in place and how we are going to
19:38 reposition ourselves as we enter this
19:40 new, you know, call it AIdriven
19:42 organizations of the future.
19:44 >> I think it's very interesting because in
19:45 the marketing world, we've been
19:47 discussing this forever, right? the
19:48 attention economy and everyone's
19:50 fighting for the same seconds and
19:51 minutes, right?
19:54 >> It's interesting that that even reaches
19:57 >> HR professional
20:00 >> on at a global, you know, scale.
20:03 >> To me, it's it's the like the big shadow
20:05 thing that is just eating the world at
20:07 the moment. It's like who gets your
20:10 attention and and and also the retention
20:11 and therefore the engagement, which I
20:13 think is interesting to see that from an
20:16 HR perspective as well. Um, at the same
20:18 time, speaking of things that get that
20:19 are getting our attention, like the
20:22 world has probably always been on fire,
20:24 but it feels more on fire than ever,
20:26 right? There's so much going on. Um,
20:29 whether it's wars or it's tariffs or
20:32 it's lord knows what's going on. Um, and
20:34 together with the speed of like the
20:36 development of things like AI, but
20:39 mostly the communication around things
20:41 like AI, right? You wake up every day,
20:43 five new tools, five new this, five new
20:45 that. Um,
20:47 looking at that, would you say it would
20:52 be smarter to shorten your like future
20:54 plans and like maybe in the past we
20:56 would do five year plans and threeear
20:57 plans, maybe it should now be three in
20:59 one or maybe it should turn into months.
21:00 I don't know. How do you see that? Do
21:02 you think we we are strong enough to
21:04 predict the future when it comes to
21:06 strategy within this industry or we
21:10 should actually adapt to way more, you
21:12 know, flexible work? Yeah, I'm going to
21:14 give you the typical psychologist answer
21:15 on that one, right? In terms of that
21:18 it's a it depends and it's an andor that
21:20 we would probably need to do. I think
21:22 >> in times that we are living in now
21:24 that's very turbulent and with where
21:25 change happens quite a bit and I think
21:27 there's a lot of very you know big
21:29 disruptive events you know and you can
21:31 kind of list the name what's happened
21:33 over the 12 months there. I think it's
21:35 even more important to be very clear as
21:37 an organization on your purpose and your
21:39 reason for existence. And I think that's
21:40 a long-term thing that you aspire to
21:43 over time. The other side of that is
21:45 that the world is changing too quickly
21:47 to be that predictable and that static.
21:49 So I think in your strategies you need
21:51 to build in a lot more scenario-based
21:53 thinking. So what happens when these
21:56 various futures start to occur and then
21:57 I think you do need to review it on a
21:59 more regular cycle because strategy is
22:02 no longer a threeyear or a 5year plan. I
22:04 think purpose definitely is, but I think
22:06 strategy has become something that we
22:08 look at a lot more frequently to make
22:09 sure are we still making the right
22:12 decisions on what we say yes and no to
22:14 in order to be able to move our
22:16 organization along. So I think there's a
22:18 little bit of both around being nimble
22:20 in execution but also on the other side
22:22 knowing when and where to kind of chat
22:24 about you know the strategic stuff. Um
22:26 not being rigid I think is going to be a
22:28 key you know key thing for any
22:30 organization um over the next couple of months.
22:31 months.
22:33 Yeah, I think purpose gives you
22:35 direction. It gives you, you know, a
22:37 compass to know where you're going, but
22:39 then on that path could be anything. You
22:41 need nimble uh you need to be nimble.
22:43 You need flexibility to be able to adapt
22:45 to that.
22:47 >> I think you see that more with people as
22:50 well. Uh obviously organizations and
22:52 companies, they're they're bigger and
22:54 therefore slower to move and uh and
22:55 innovate, but in people, I see it all
22:57 the time. like someone could reposition
23:00 themselves every week, every day,
23:02 >> which I think is interesting and and to
23:03 me that is what companies should look
23:07 out for as well. Like be the company you
23:09 need to be to achieve your purpose. I
23:11 think that's a a very interesting thing.
23:12 Now listen,
23:15 >> I just want you I I need a hard answer,
23:18 right? We're just doing one.
23:19 >> Yes, but it's a very easy question, but
23:21 it is game show style. So, do you
23:23 believe traditional long-term planning
23:25 is dead? Yes or no? >> Yes.
23:26 >> Yes.
23:29 Thank you. Same. Um, now I could I could
23:31 listen to you like forever, but I also
23:33 know that you're going to be a speaker
23:34 at a very cool event right here in
23:37 Amsterdam in September. Um, which I
23:39 think is cool. And it also it's
23:41 basically like HR. It has this
23:44 incredibly long name which I'm going to
23:46 repeat for everyone. It's going to be
23:48 the Global Talent Strategy and
23:50 Intelligence Conference. Right.
23:52 >> We need to find a They need to make a
23:55 short little version of that. Um, but it
23:56 it's going to be cool. It's going to be
23:58 three days. You're going to be on stage.
23:59 There's going to be amazing other
24:02 speakers as well. Now, imagine, right,
24:04 the world changes and you can only use
24:07 one slide. What will be on it?
24:09 >> On my slide, I would talk Oh, that's a
24:12 very good question actually. Um,
24:14 yeah, I would I would talk about what
24:17 are the scenarios for the future that we
24:18 need to consider in terms of our talent
24:20 strategies. If I only had one slide, I
24:22 would say there's three possible
24:24 futures. what are the ones that we think
24:26 is going to start to happen and how do
24:27 we prepare today to be ready for
24:29 whichever one of the futures um you know
24:32 becomes the reality over time. So
24:34 there's three. Okay. We're not going to
24:36 give all three away. Just just tease
24:39 one. Tease one of them and come to the
24:41 event to hear the other two. Let's go.
24:43 >> Yeah. So I think the one is, you know,
24:45 talent um international talent mobility
24:47 is in a situation where given global
24:49 conflict, you know, people are less
24:51 mobile than what they were before and
24:52 the workforce becomes a lot more
24:54 distributed. How do we work in that
24:57 reality? um where you you can't get your
24:59 people together um and you are working
25:01 with colleagues sitting together even
25:02 though their countries might be in
25:04 conflict with each other. What does that
25:06 look like? Um so I think those are the
25:07 types of things that we need to think
25:09 about in the in the talent world.
25:11 >> I think you're absolutely right. I can't
25:15 wait to hear the other two. Um
25:17 another sort of game show question I
25:19 guess right short sweet answer. Are you
25:22 more of a data person or a gut feeling
25:25 person? data definitely
25:27 every day of the week
25:30 >> data for breakfast why
25:31 why
25:33 >> so you know I think for there's a couple
25:35 of reasons for that right I think we are
25:38 all as human beings we are biased and we
25:39 have our own beliefs and assumptions
25:41 about the world and as much as I think
25:43 that makes us beautiful interesting
25:45 human beings it also sometimes makes us
25:47 limited in what we think the the current
25:50 reality is having said that though I
25:51 think data helps us cut through a lot of
25:54 that noise but data in isolation is not
25:56 useful. It's for me about data in
25:58 context. So data is something that
26:00 informs and phrases our thinking and
26:02 helps us to see new possibilities um as
26:04 part of that and I'm very much on how do
26:07 we combine what you know yourself with
26:09 the data that you see and how does that
26:11 generate a new insight for you that
26:12 wasn't something that you thought about before.
26:14 before.
26:15 >> So it's about thinking and knowing. I
26:17 haven't heard feeling one time. So is
26:19 feeling out of HR?
26:21 >> Of course not. So it's obviously part
26:22 and parcel to what we do but I think it
26:26 is also about um you know making sense.
26:28 So for me sense making is a big big part
26:30 of that. How do we make sense of what's
26:32 happening to us? And that combines you
26:34 know thinking, feeling and doing. Um if
26:35 you want to think about them in a little triangle
26:37 triangle
26:39 >> I like triangles. That's good. Um and
26:41 since you you are very data driven like
26:44 what would be the three most important
26:45 data points to look at? Which one matter
26:47 the most?
26:48 Well, I almost want to answer it in a
26:50 little bit of a different way. I would
26:51 say what are the three questions that
26:53 you're asking um that you should rather
26:55 be asking yourself and then to go and
26:57 look at the data in that context because
26:58 I think we make the mistake of being
27:00 obsessed with the data and not so much
27:02 with the questions that we need to ask.
27:04 Um you know, if you're working in talent
27:06 management today, I think you should be
27:07 asking, you know, what does our what
27:10 what can our workforce in the future do?
27:12 How is that different than what we have
27:14 today? And what should we put in place
27:16 today to bridge that gap? I think those
27:17 are three crucial questions you should
27:19 always be asking yourself when you're
27:20 thinking about the future of talent
27:23 management and talent insights. The data
27:24 points that answer those questions will
27:26 differ from time to time depending on
27:28 who you are as an organization but I
27:31 think the questions stay the same.
27:33 >> That's very true and I think that's also
27:35 like I believe in data a lot but I
27:37 believe in feelings too and
27:39 >> um the thing I think is interesting is
27:41 that data by itself is nothing right.
27:44 It's all about the analytics of the data
27:48 >> and those are uh the tools to create the
27:51 stories in which we present the data. So
27:54 do you think a lot of data stories are
27:57 like you know corrupted colored or you
28:00 know beneficial from the the presenter
28:04 um or do you think that data is is you
28:08 know the fundamental truth of what
28:11 people are using it for? So I think we
28:13 we fall into the trap you know that
28:14 you've mentioned a little bit that we
28:17 get so sucked into the data itself that
28:18 we forget that you know data is a
28:20 vehicle to achieve something else. So
28:22 whenever we talk about you know
28:24 utilizing data to tell stories we always
28:26 say but what is the question you're
28:28 asking? What is the um answer that you
28:30 are trying to to explore and then what
28:32 is the action that you want people to
28:34 take? Utilize the data in the narrative
28:35 and in the story to be able to get
28:38 there. Um, you know, there's a very big
28:39 difference between what is interesting
28:41 from a data point of view versus what is
28:44 what is useful and it's not always, you
28:45 know, the same. I've been in boardrooms
28:48 where they build beautiful like
28:50 datadriven packs that is not useful at
28:53 all versus somebody else in real time.
28:55 >> Exactly. By dashboarding and slicing and
28:57 dicing and everything and then I've been
28:58 in other rooms where people bring in two
29:00 slides that's based on some data
29:02 insights that they've done and it sparks
29:04 a full day conversation on decisions
29:06 that we need to make. So I think it is
29:08 about seeing things in context as I've
29:10 mentioned but don't drown in the data
29:12 rather spend time in the insight and in
29:13 the sense making and what is the action
29:15 that we wanted to take because data
29:17 needs to move things. It's not about
29:19 keeping things you know static and it's
29:20 not just about looking back. It's about
29:22 what do we know about the past through
29:24 the data that can help us with
29:26 conversations for the future.
29:27 >> I think that's a brilliant quote. Data
29:30 needs to move things. I like that. I'm
29:33 putting that on a t-shirt. Is that okay?
29:36 >> Go for it by all means. Okay, happy to.
29:38 Um, you know, so there's there's also a
29:40 lot of systems. We're talking about
29:41 data. We're talking about, you know, the
29:43 attention economy. We're talking about
29:45 all these things. So there's almost no
29:48 way to not discuss social online
29:50 platforms or digital online platforms,
29:52 right? So in the world of HR, obviously
29:54 there's there are things like LinkedIn,
29:56 there are things like Indeed. What is
30:00 your take on these platforms? So I think
30:02 they play a very important part of the
30:04 you know the talent ecosystem if I can
30:06 call it that of the future. I think you
30:08 earlier made the point to say you know
30:10 any platform or technology remember what
30:13 it is it is a tool in the context of
30:15 something else that does need to happen.
30:17 I think where they play a massive role
30:19 is for the first time you know HR
30:21 professionals are able to reach a bigger
30:23 part of the workforce in a way that is a
30:24 lot more as I've said before
30:26 personalized and scalable. And I think
30:28 on the other side it does allow us with
30:30 the opportunity to engage with people in
30:32 a very different way and be able to kind
30:34 of gather them in a very different way
30:36 and communicate with them.
30:38 >> I think um what it should never be is
30:40 just about the technology and I think
30:42 the technology is not something to hide
30:44 behind if I can call it that that kind
30:46 of replaces the human connection that we
30:48 want to create in the organization.
30:49 >> But you know I think massively
30:51 technologies already changed talent and
30:54 HR significantly and will continue to do
30:56 so. Um I always just ask people around
30:58 is the technology driving what you do or
30:59 are you using the technology to drive
31:01 what you actually wanted to achieve
31:03 because it's two very very different
31:05 things. Um I think we can get stuck on
31:07 you know I have tool X that can do XY Z
31:09 so that becomes my strategy which I
31:11 think isn't correct versus I want to
31:14 achieve this which tool can help me get
31:16 there or combination of tools and how do
31:18 I put them into play and I think that is
31:21 what the important focus should be. I
31:23 would call that uncommon sense.
31:25 >> Uncommon sense like that. It's probably
31:27 strong word you can also use.
31:30 >> Yeah. Yeah. True. But you know
31:35 marketing. So anyway um these platforms
31:37 um when I compare them to other you know
31:41 more social driven mass audience things
31:43 um they are a little bit lacking
31:44 >> right because they don't have the same
31:46 amount of users and so they develop less
31:48 tech or maybe they they have different
31:50 preferences. But how do you think these platforms
31:52 platforms
31:55 uh need to evolve? What would you add if
31:56 you could if you were the master of
31:58 LinkedIn? What would you add?
32:00 >> Yeah. So I'm going to answer it in two
32:02 ways, right? So the first one is, you
32:03 know, and I hear this a lot from
32:05 employees where they say, you know, why
32:07 when I engage with your HR technologies,
32:09 it feels like 1960, but when I'm
32:11 outside, it feels like I'm in 2025. Why
32:13 aren't we applying the same
32:15 consumer-based principles when we build
32:17 technologies for consumers that we do
32:19 when we build for employees? You know, I
32:22 would argue that employees spend, you
32:24 know, x amount of time at work. The type
32:26 of technology that they need to utilize
32:27 also kind of needs to give that
32:29 intuitive experience. You know, the same
32:30 things that you would think about in
32:32 marketing, the hooks you want to build
32:33 in, the way that the technology
32:36 operates, it being intuitive, etc. So, I
32:37 think that's a crucially important
32:39 thing. The second thing you know you ask
32:41 then what would I do differently about
32:43 the current technologies
32:44 we do need to get a point and I know
32:46 that for commercial reasons people don't
32:48 want to go that way but where these
32:50 technologies start playing a lot better
32:52 with each other and stops confusing the
32:54 employee on the other side there's still
32:56 so many employees where organizations
32:58 have great HR technology but it's not
33:00 integrated it gives a fragmented
33:01 employee experience I have to swap
33:03 between different systems to do
33:04 different things some things are
33:07 available in this channel and not in in
33:09 another channel. So for me it would
33:10 start with understanding who the
33:12 employee is as a consumer of the
33:14 technology and then actually designing
33:15 for them in that way that's a lot more
33:18 integrated and you know just makes a lot
33:19 more sense. >> Rich,
33:21 >> Rich,
33:25 that's you have a fan by now. Okay. Um I
33:27 I I think those are really legit. I
33:28 think those are uh those are interesting
33:30 involvements as well because to me it
33:32 feels like the
33:34 >> the consumer experience world is blurring.
33:35 blurring. >> Yeah.
33:35 >> Yeah.
33:38 >> Right. We we expect the same sort of
33:40 level of communication from major
33:42 entertainment whether it's Netflix or
33:44 Nike and we expect that now from our
33:47 dentist and from our employer right
33:49 >> and I think that's a very strong
33:51 realization that people need to
33:53 understand that if it's not that cool
33:55 that they lose attention and engagement
33:57 >> um so cool is sort of the new basic
33:59 which I think is an interesting thing
34:01 >> you know I speak to a lot of HR people
34:02 and they'll say you know oh our
34:04 self-service in the organization is
34:06 really really terrible why are we not
34:08 getting traction and adoption, you know,
34:10 would you use it if you had to buy it
34:11 with your own money? It's a question I
34:14 often ask my, you know, HR teams and and
34:16 some of our clients. I said, if
34:18 >> if HR was a product, would you buy it
34:19 with your own money? Would you recommend
34:21 it to somebody else and would you
34:22 continue to use it? Typical consumer
34:24 questions. If your question is, you
34:26 know, to be honest, I wouldn't really
34:27 buy it because it's not good enough,
34:28 then why on earth are you expecting
34:31 people to really adopt and to utilize
34:32 it? So, I think that thinking has to
34:35 change, uh, you know, quite a bit. Yeah.
34:37 Uh I had used actually the same
34:39 principles when it comes to like social
34:41 media content and things. Um talked to a
34:43 lot of brands and a lot of companies who
34:45 try to translate whatever they're doing
34:46 to content to reach consumers and I'm
34:49 like why on earth would I follow you?
34:50 You're a
34:51 >> spot on
34:54 >> you know with all respect um I don't
34:57 know why if you're if you're a plumber
34:58 why why should I be following you on
34:59 social media? >> Yeah.
35:00 >> Yeah.
35:02 >> There are ways to do it but there's more
35:03 ways not to do it. Right. put on.
35:05 >> And it doesn't really matter if you're a
35:06 plumber or or anything else. It's just
35:09 like the the the question why. Would you
35:11 use it yourself? Would you follow it
35:13 yourself? Would you buy it yourself? I
35:14 think that's a very very good tool. I
35:17 think you are absolutely spot on. Now,
35:20 you seem like a very clever man that
35:24 knows uh a few things. So, everyone
35:26 knows Indeed and everyone knows LinkedIn
35:27 and there's probably a whole bunch of
35:30 other platforms that you all know. But
35:32 what is like the who are the new kids on
35:34 the block? Who's the most exciting
35:36 company or most exciting tool or person
35:40 that you know that we should know about?
35:42 >> Well, that's a little bit of a question
35:44 putting uh putting me on the spot there,
35:47 right? So, um I think there's a lot of
35:49 interesting things that's being done in
35:51 two places, right? So, I think companies
35:53 that are playing very extensively in
35:54 like the skills-based market and
35:56 utilizing AI insights there. So, I think
35:58 you know companies like Techwolf, I
35:59 think companies like Gloat, I think they
36:02 do a really good job. um fuel 50 you
36:03 know kind of thinking very differently
36:06 about your internal talent landscape um
36:07 and you know not to you know kind of
36:09 promote any brands there or not but I
36:11 would keep an eye and a watch on the
36:13 young up and cominging HR tech companies
36:15 that don't have the legacy to build that
36:17 they need to fall back on and that's
36:19 really open to building and what we've
36:22 discussed today this new consumerfocused
36:24 um you know intuition type of technology
36:26 that is really focused on the experience
36:28 that we want to create I think people
36:29 that compete in that domain I think
36:31 they're going to be the ones that really
36:32 get ahead.
36:34 >> Okay. And without um promoting any
36:36 brands, could you accidentally name some?
36:43 >> Um you know, I think that there's going
36:44 to be different ones, right? Depending
36:45 on what you do. I think what is
36:47 interesting and maybe not to name any,
36:49 what I think is interesting is that it's
36:53 not the it's not the natural big ERP ERP
36:54 players that are the fastest with the
36:57 innovation um you know, driving
36:59 especially the talent landscape. I think
37:01 it's a lot more the smaller to mediumsiz
37:02 players that's coming out with really
37:04 really interesting things. I would
37:06 probably say a word of caution though. I
37:07 think at the moment everybody is using
37:10 AI and it masquerades as stuff that's
37:12 not necessarily AI. So, you know, I
37:13 think those would be things just to to
37:15 watch out for.
37:17 >> It's an amazing political answer without
37:19 accidentally naming absolutely anyone.
37:21 >> Okay, let's try this again. You are a
37:23 professor. I'm a student. I need help.
37:26 I'm failing. Who should I where should I
37:30 watch? What do I type in? like help.
37:32 >> So I maybe let me answer it differently.
37:35 Who do I keep an eye on? Right. So
37:36 >> yes, who would you keep an eye on?
37:38 >> Who do I keep an eye on? Like I said
37:40 before, I keep an eye on um a lot of the
37:43 AI skills companies. So yeah, I think
37:45 Techwolf for example, I think they are
37:46 doing really interesting things. I think
37:48 Gloat is doing really interesting
37:50 things. I do think indeed etc is doing
37:51 interesting things. They've been doing
37:53 um a lot of new innovations uh you know
37:55 that we've also started to see come out
37:56 there which I think is quite
37:59 interesting. Um I'm also it's a vendor
38:01 that we also utilize but I keep an eye
38:03 on what Lenosity is doing in the
38:05 learning landscape and how we measure um
38:07 you know impact based learning u which I
38:09 think they're also shifting things and
38:11 then a company I love to follow which I
38:12 think is just good from a market
38:15 insights point of view is Rellio Labs. I
38:17 think they do really excellent work on
38:19 labor and market insights that I
38:20 personally also follow for a lot of
38:23 talent trends and talent insights. So I would
38:23 would
38:25 >> thank you for not promoting anyone
38:27 >> to say go there I'm not promoting them. Yeah,
38:28 Yeah,
38:30 >> go there, see what those people are
38:32 doing, but they're uh I think they're
38:34 they're busy with some good stuff.
38:36 >> I feel you. Well, thank you for that. I
38:37 think that's going to be helpful for a
38:39 lot of people to figure that one out. Um
38:41 actually, the last subject I want to
38:43 touch upon probably is shortage, right?
38:46 This whole conception of
38:47 >> there's a shortage in the marketplace.
38:50 We can't find the right talents. um you
38:53 know is that about innovating to find
38:56 them or finally getting the basics right
38:59 to find what would you say?
39:00 >> I think there's a there's a little bit
39:03 of both there in the sense that I think
39:04 the way that we've always thought about
39:06 how we design work needs to change
39:08 because I think we've put this in the
39:10 container of a job and people need to be
39:11 able to do absolutely everything that
39:14 fits into a job and I don't think that's
39:15 a reality anymore. So I think we are
39:18 selling ourselves short. So the way we
39:20 design work I think needs to change to
39:22 be more realistic for the type of skills
39:24 that the market has and then that's able
39:26 then to actually utilize skills in a
39:27 different way. So what do I mean by that
39:29 is you might not have all 10 skills
39:31 that's required in one particular job
39:33 might be very scarce to find but if I
39:36 break that down into three different
39:38 skills clusters that you have maybe I've
39:39 got three people that can do those three
39:42 different elements. So I think it's more
39:44 about bringing the world of orc design
39:46 and workforce planning together with the
39:48 world of talent acquisition together
39:50 with the world of talent development and
39:52 kind of starting to think about those
39:53 different areas because they're very
39:55 fragmented at the moment. You know, we
39:56 think about our strategic workforce
39:58 plan. Do we really tie that into what
40:00 our talent acquisition people are
40:01 telling us about the market and what
40:03 skills they're starting to find more
40:05 difficult, you know, to source? And then
40:07 I think on the other side to your point,
40:09 I think there's some basics that will
40:11 never change, right? So how do we use
40:13 the data to understand the skills market
40:14 how do we bring that across in terms of
40:16 where we go and search and find for
40:18 things and you know I think we're in a
40:19 position where there's so much
40:21 intelligence out there you know there's
40:23 a great company that for example changed
40:24 their talent strategy they've got
40:26 multiple locations they realized in
40:28 location A they're just not finding the
40:30 particular skill set so they actually
40:32 moved the division to somewhere else
40:34 working together remotely in a different
40:35 way to an area where that skill set was
40:38 actually available so I think it's about
40:40 making some of those calls but being you
40:42 know very realistic and pragmatic about
40:43 some of those things because I think we
40:45 have the skills in the world that we
40:47 need and that we can develop but I think
40:49 we are not necessarily have the
40:51 packaging of what we are looking for. So
40:52 maybe the packaging which is a little
40:54 bit the you know the traditional work
40:57 and job architecture is the problem.
41:00 >> Yeah. So is global hiring and remote
41:02 working the answer and solution to shortage?
41:03 shortage?
41:05 >> I think it's one of the strategies to
41:07 look at. I think you know if I can't
41:08 find something in location X maybe I
41:10 need to look somewhere else and
41:12 obviously that provides me with you know
41:13 different opportunities. I'm not saying
41:16 that it is the only answer. I think
41:18 there has to be a lot more talk between
41:20 organizations and industries as well as
41:22 then tertiary education institutions.
41:24 You know what are the skill sets that we
41:25 are actually producing and what is the
41:27 education system look like that will
41:29 give us the skill set we require for the
41:31 future. So for me it's about how do we
41:33 build that pipeline for the next couple
41:35 of generations whilst the generation
41:37 that's currently in the workforce how do
41:39 we start thinking differently about
41:40 utilizing the skills that's currently
41:43 available. So you know remote work I
41:45 think it's a very important part of your
41:47 talent strategy not the only one and
41:49 obviously there's a lot of nuance to
41:50 that depending on who you are as an
41:52 employer but personally I think it has
41:54 to be a conversation at least around
41:56 what is your stance on it.
41:59 >> Amazing. I agree. Um, I have the best
42:02 question in the world waiting for you.
42:09 >> What question have I not asked you that
42:13 you would have wished I had?
42:15 >> What question have you have you asked me
42:26 yeah. No, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Uh, am I
42:28 optimistic about the future of talent
42:29 and HR? Maybe that's the
42:31 >> Are you optimistic about the future of
42:32 talent and HR?
42:34 >> Well, it's great, Ron, now that you ask
42:36 that particular question. Now I'm saying
42:37 that tongue and cheek because I think
42:38 there is a big narrative out there that
42:40 it's all doom and gloom and you know
42:41 it's such a tough time and the
42:42 environment is really tough which I
42:44 think is are all there is some truth to
42:47 that but I think it's a very interesting
42:49 time to be in the talent and in the HR
42:50 space and domain and there's so much
42:53 opportunity that we can tap into but it
42:54 is going to call on us to be a little
42:56 bit more courageous and to be able to
42:57 let go of a lot of things of the past
42:59 and embrace some of the new things
43:01 there. Um, but I think it's a good news
43:02 narrative. It's a positive narrative
43:05 that we do need to tap into. And it's
43:06 not about, oh, doom gloom. We don't have
43:08 the skills. We don't have the talent.
43:10 You know, everything is is kind of too
43:11 complex. Everything is going going down
43:13 the drain. That's not where we are
43:15 today. But it does not mean that we
43:17 should be waiting for people to define
43:19 our future. So maybe maybe that that helps.
43:21 helps.
43:26 >> You're a bad thing.
43:29 >> I think it's just ridiculous. I don't
43:32 think um more you know inspiration could
43:35 fit into one podcast. So we might have
43:37 to put a little you know ribbon around
43:40 it and see you on stage. I think that's
43:41 going to be very interesting. The last
43:45 and final uh segment is about quotes.
43:47 That's all it is. Do you have favorite
43:49 quotes or you know inspiring insights to
43:51 share with the people which we can cut
43:52 into five seconds and make that
43:54 attention economy buzz?
43:57 >> Yeah. So I I grew up in South Africa. So
43:59 I think my favorite quote comes from an
44:00 African proverb that still talks about
44:02 the fact if you want to go fast go
44:03 alone. If you want to go far, go
44:06 together. Um and I think that remains,
44:08 you know, one of my key things that I
44:10 always talk talk about whenever there's
44:12 a difficult decision to make about how
44:15 we bring people along.
44:17 >> That's one. You want you want to do
44:19 another 21 of these or are you okay?
44:21 >> No, I think that one's okay.
44:23 >> I think that one's okay. I'll just add
44:25 an extra one which is yours. You know,
44:28 data is meant to keep things moving. I
44:30 think that's a very very nice one. Uh
44:33 I'm definitely putting in my quote set
44:35 and yelling it at people. So, it's going
44:37 to be good. Um I would love to thank you
44:39 for your energy and your time and all
44:41 the wisdom you shared with us today and
44:43 uh look forward to seeing you here in
44:45 Amsterdam in September.
44:46 >> Fantastic. Thanks so much, Ron. Much
44:48 appreciated and look forward to it.
44:51 >> Absolutely. Same here. Um, so thank you
44:53 everyone also for listening. It it was
44:55 an insightful conversation. I think it's
44:58 cool to see how we continue to navigate
45:00 this entire landscape that keeps on
45:01 changing on global talent strategy. And
45:03 I'm sure everyone listening took
45:05 something away from today's podcast. I'm
45:08 100% sure of that. So be sure to join us
45:12 for GTSI 2025. It's in Amsterdam. It's
45:14 in September. And be part of the future
45:16 of workforce transformation. Until next
