True human development and wisdom are not algorithmic or purely computational; they involve deep introspection, understanding one's motivations, and integrating complex emotions and existential questions to navigate a world of increasing power and risk.
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wisdom is not algorithmic and cannot be
made algorithmic you can't have a if
this and that algorithm that actually
equals wisdom and and if you can then
we're just a intermediate bootloader for
the AIS that are better creatures than
us right Daniel I I'm very impressed
that we finally managed to get this
recording sorted not only between time
difference challenges or me needing a
rearrange or a global pandemic were
finally here we finally got each other
on the line you know the global
pandemics [ __ ] up our schedule sometimes
it's very inconvenient
yeah it's incredibly inconvenient you
know um so as you where we talk a lot on
this podcast about self development and
you help people to make sense of the
world sense-making preventing global
catastrophic risks so in light of the
way that the world is at the moment what
are your thoughts about how people can
develop themselves while still ensuring
that we have a functioning world that
isn't isn't risky we can go like a
million places with that question and so
we'll just start and see what see what
happens even the topic of personal
development what that means is pretty
ambiguous the idea of development means
that something can progress to some
stage of more refinement or more
capacity and so we know what that means
in mathematics or in playing classical
piano or weightlifting right there's
some sense of progressive development
but what does it mean for a person to
develop beyond early adulthood we also
have a very clear sense that children go
through developmental stages of
increasing their cognitive and social
and linguistic and motor and all these
types of capacities but then when does
that stop
does it have to stop there's a
development of more skills but what does
becoming a more developed human being
fundamentally mean is a philosophic is
spiritual religious existential question
and to the question of what is a
meaningful human life is underneath that
and then how do I effectively develop
myself align with what is most
meaningful and when I'm asking what is a
meaningful human life there's not just
my own experience but how do I relate to
the whole of life how does the
meaningfulness of life relate to both
what I experience and also what I
contribute to the experience of others
and so when we think about the current
world situation does the world situation
were in create a context for what kinds
of human development are relevant within
the general parameters of some universal
truths and it certainly does because
what the world needs if we want to
really effectively serve to protect
against unnecessary harm and to increase
the quality of life it needs different
skills than it needed a thousand years
ago and it needs different it actually
needs totally different kinds of minds
and sense-making in many ways and then
some aspects of it are obviously going
to be the same across lots of contexts
like the refinement of our clarity and
our own motivation and our own emotional
resilience and things like that I think
the motivation is an interesting one to
start on which is as soon as you have a
concept of human development and there's
some concept of more developed and you
can conceptually understand that to try
and orient yourself
then there becomes an inherent
comparison with other people of are
they've comprehensively more developed
human than I am and or am i more than
they are and is my thinking that I'm
more than they are some sign of ego
which is actually a sign of low
development in some particular way and
it's easy to cognitively understand what
some higher stage of development would
Express like and be able to act it
without it actually being real and so as
soon as there's you know you read David
it--and you have the an authentic man is
such and such or embodied woman is such
and such or whatever well you can just
start acting that and having it be
a bunch of personal development
mimicking for basically status seeking
and what's underneath that the status
seeking impulse which is usually
fundamental insecurities is actually not
healing itself which would the real
personal development would be it's
actually doubling down on itself in
building up a presentation package and
whether it's I'm rich or I'm buff or M
enlightened just depends on the
subculture you're appealing to that is a
very hard red pill to swallow and I
couldn't agree more the there's a quote
from member John who says that character
will always beat strategy
he's a CrossFit coach and I think what
he's talking about there is the virtue
of doing the thing because it's the
thing that you want to do from your
innermost being as opposed to doing the
thing because that's what you think you
should do based on what you've been told
so that you can then signal that you are
a person who has these virtues it's tart
horse or horse cart when you mention
virtue signaling which will obviously
show very differently in different
cultures right I'm a good Republican
versus I'm a good Democrat is going to
have totally it'll be repulsive to the
people of the different tribe or
religions or different types of
aesthetics from an evolutionary biology
perspective it's mostly just mate signaling
signaling
and so whether it's a 150 foot super
you know having read all the books in a
particular space and presenting yourself
in a way that we say okay well where is
that imperative to want people to
respond to me in a particular way well
it has something to do with power
dynamics in a tribe and largely
basically mate signaling is the
evolutionary origin of it it's valuable
to just admit that and just kind of
reflect on it to say the more I can
reflect on the biological
predispositions that arise the less I'm
controlled by them and I don't want to
be ashamed of a repressed they more just
automatically go with them right because
they gave rise to the capacity for
abstraction and the abstraction can give
rise to higher order interests than the
base interests so this is actually a
very valuable thing in personal
development is just taking the time to
very deeply earnestly inquire into your motive
motive
and okay I'm wanting to develop in this
way why is because mostly the Y's are
actually lies right it's I believe that
when I'm buff then I will dot dot dot
and it's and it's not gonna be true
right so the thing happens and then it's
just some other set of goals and and so
typically whenever someone is going
about doing some project to help the
world or develop themselves or whatever
they usually have mixed motives they
have like a dozen different motives
driving them and they're usually only
aware of half of them and they'll
usually only admit like one or two of
them and but this will affect your
results and your trustworthiness because
those motives will pull in different
ways and so let's say I'm trying to
develop myself as someone who's more
capable of making a difference in the
world and so I'm doing some alleviating
poverty project and the read the mission
statement of why we're doing this is
because these kids don't have shoes and
they don't have food and we need to
bring it to them and we care that might
actually be true like I might actually
care as one of the twelve or so motives
as me doing that I might also need to
make some money and this nonprofit is a
way that I can make some money I also
might want to feel successful in a
different way and this hits a certain
idea of what what will make me feel
successful and then there may be a bunch
of stuff that's unconscious like
insecurity from childhood and school and
still wanting to hear that I did a good
job that my parents didn't give me or
that they did project it on to the rest
of the world the degree to which you can
just really watch that right just watch
the things that are rising in the mind
and they'll show up when you notice
where who you're comparing yourself with
and where you feel jealousies which is
something that you think that your one
thing that they're someone else is
getting socially or whatever
and just in in reflecting then you can
so which of these seem like they're
coming from wholeness like from from the
deepest whole list version of myself I
could imagine and which of them feel
like they're more coming from insecurity
or woundedness and if I imagine myself
growing in my wholeness which of these
would deepen in which would lessen and
then of the ones that would lessen you
can just ask if this wasn't there at all
how would my life be different like the
desire that people like me or whatever
it is this wasn't there at all and that
doesn't mean to pathologize it just you
just get it inquire in that and notice
how does it move you and maybe some ways
that it moves you are fine but it's good
to at least be clear on it are those
some of the signals that people can use
to identify that because the pernicious
thing about our subconscious is that
were not conscious of it not without
doing a tremendous amount of
introspective work time in solitude and
all that sort of stuff
so are there any signals that people can
say that's that's that thing manifesting again
yeah I mean I think a lot of people if
they just make time kind of already know
what some of the signals are say there's
a project you want to do and you want to
do it because it actually feels
intrinsically meaningful right there's a
real intrinsic motive and you think
about someone else getting credit for it
you're not getting credit for it versus
you getting credit for it you just or
even notice in the process of a
conversation where there is a credit
seeking impulse arise in you and you say
oh that impulse and the impulse to
actually serve are not the same impulse
those are two different impulses that
are both arising and they maybe they can
be made to be to sled-dogs pulling in
the same direction but they might be
sled dogs pulling in opposite directions
because sometimes the way I can serve
the project best is to let someone else
take credit so they work harder to make
the thing happen and this is why you
know if you read the daodejing
as a book of leadership almost it just
says that thing again and again the best
leader is the one that nobody even knows
is leading who doesn't want to lead who
other people push to lead because they
trust them and really just empowers
everyone else yeah I get it so thinking
about what this means for people on a
broader scale what it means for an
individual to understand their
motivations toward leading a good life I
think one of the key insights that I've
had from spending time exposed to this
sort of content is that I didn't for a
long time and still mostly don't know
what I want to want truthfully it's a
yeah there's a in processes in the
process of development of becoming more
self reflexively aware so first you're
living in a particular way and you
aren't even really reflecting on if
that's the right way to be living right
and then you start reflecting on and you
realize oh I'm actually behaving ways
that go against the things that I want
and so I'm getting angry or I'm getting
jealous or I'm whatever it is that isn't
who I really want to be and this is kind
of like tier one the medics and personal
development let me see if I can work on
and some people will start to realize
wow that pattern of being angry or being
habituated or whatever being lazy was
conditioned in me because had I grown up
with the Sioux Indians or with the
matcha Ganga tribe or whatever I would
be different right like there's no
question that there would be a lot about
me that's different so I don't want to
just be the kind of default byproduct of
how I happen to grow up that I didn't
even really have a say in where I chose
so can i recondition it's like yeah I
can recondition it then there's some
more reflection it says so I can
recondition my behaviors to be more
aligned with what I want and what I
value they're like [ __ ] what I want what
I value is conditioned also because do I
want to be a good Christian or I want to
be a good Muslim or I want to be a good
Hindu or a good scientist do I want to
be a Wall Street banker or a good family
man do I
that was probably also conditioned right
all the way down to your your
metaphysical framework for what reality
is and what the good life is in there
now you've entered the heart of
existentialism because you're asking
what is worth wanting and then you have
to say well what is the basis to answer
that that wasn't just conditioned is
there some deeper than my conditioning
basis can i pierce through the
conditioning and so what I'm trying to
ask is is there anything intrinsically
meaningful about the nature of reality
that I can come to understand that is
beyond where I happen to have been
conditioned where regardless of where I
would have been conditioned this is
something I could come to and it turns
out that there are meaningful ways to
address that tell us that's what we're
here for Tania we are here to to find
out about that there's different ways of
approaching this that have validity so
I'm not gonna say what the truth of a
meaningful life is but I'll say some
ways that I have found and that others I
have seen have found that are meaningful and
and
also acknowledged you can walk one or
multiple of these paths I forget the
author there's a famous quote the heart
knows reasons the reason knows nothing
of and there is a kind of poetic
artistic answer to the question which is
it just is right there's a deep there's
a sense of this is meaningful because
it'll serve this and then that because
this and then at a certain level there's
a sense of just prima facie it just is
and like life life is fundamentally
meaningful and worth serving
why just it's right there's no deeper
explanation that adds more clarification
than that it is based on your own direct
experience of your experience of
aliveness feeling intrinsically
meaningful and then you're sensing the
depth of other people's experience of
life and seeing that that's meaningful
in your desire to serve life in that way
and it just enter the answer there is
not really a deep philosophical inquiry
that's great and you know the first
verse of the Tao Te Ching is that the
knowledge that is knowable is not the
eternal knowledge and the Dao that is
which means the to translate the meaning
or the purpose of everything that you
can describe in words isn't really it
semantics is a symbol that has a very
finite meaning that is supposed to
represent a certain ground right like
the word Apple references Apple you know
but when I'm talking about
meaningfulness of reality there is no
word that can actually hold the ground
of everything and so there can be though
a certain kind of felt sense of
now we can also think about it more and
come up with better answers and it's
actually nice when we do both of these
and there's a confluence of the
deepening of our own felt connection and
the deepening of the clarity of how we
so some people go to landmark and it
starts with well I don't want to say
what landmark says there there are some
systems that will say reality is
fundamentally meaningless and that's
empowering and beautiful because you get
to create the meaning there isn't some a
priori God that said this is how you win
the race at the end and you either get
it right or you get it wrong by some you
know predefined definition that can feel
empowering there's actually some kind of
metaphysics smuggled in there which is
to say you get to create the meaning is
still actually holding some concept of
meaningfulness and the value on your own
creativity right so there it's not
actually doing the deeper inquiry to say
well why do I value choice why do I
value creativity and what is the basis
for meaningfulness my own assessment so
again those are just in prima facia held
as meaningful so science is a process of
trying to come to understand the
objective world in a way that goes
beyond my own subjective sense of what
it is which means beyond my conditioning
and my bias right and so I might think
this sound travels faster than light at
room temperature and air so I set up an
experiment and measure it and I find out
that it just doesn't and then I can do
that a hundred times or a million times
and other people can do it we can use
different apparatus and there is a the
measure ability and the repeatability
gives us a certain sense of the
objectivity of it right well so science
has done a very good job of giving us a
framework for is what is
that is not based on what I think is it
doesn't it hasn't given us the same
basis for what ought to be and there's
this classic division between science
and ethics or science and existentialism
called the is aught distinction science
can say what is it can't say what aught
because the process of science is a
observing and measuring observable
things which are inherently third-person
objects and then being able to find
patterns of regularities expressed that
I can express in something like math and
so it pertains to the domain of the
things that are measurable and repeatable
repeatable
our experience isn't measurable its
feelable its first person not third
person they're fundamentally different
categories right you say well no your
experience is measurable because we can
measure brain waves it's not measuring
the experience that's measuring a brain
state that happens to correlate with
your felt experience but someone who
studies the neuroscience of EEG s who's
looking at the brain pattern of a Zen
meditators can look at that and has no
idea what the experience is like
and so the fact that there might be some
neural correlates to experience doesn't
mean you're measuring the experience it
means there's some neural correlate
right but that's still the domain of
third person which is fundamentally
never first person
so first person is outside of the domain
of science formally this is important
because it says science is not a method
of knowing all of reality two method of
knowing parts of reality and there's
parts of reality that are rigorously
outside of the methods of science but we
want something like we had with science
which was a better process of knowing
and so are there better processes of
knowing about the nature of first-person
and the nature of the relationship
between the first person and third
person because a meaningful life is
going to involve the nature of the world
it's also going to involve the nature of
my experience and it's going to involve
the relationship between me in the world
right well that's at least three
different ontological categories third
person first person and the relationship
between the two which is neither
third-person nor first-person so that
requires a more robust philosophy that
includes but transcends the philosophy
so let's say we just look at a kind of
scientific story we can frame this lots
of different ways there's a lot of
people have
made a universe story based on a limited
part of science and then kind of made a
metaphysical story related to it like
they'll take the second law of
thermodynamics increasing entropy and
say okay so there's a lot of energy at
the Big Bang and basically the universe
is running down and will eventually turn
into just a cold vacuum and die in a a
big freeze kind of heat death and so the
metaphysics of universe is just as very
slow inexorable march towards
nothingness now if all there was of
science was the second law you might do
that that's obviously pretty silly and
there's a lot of things that aren't
explained by that at all and people will
take evolutionary biology and talk about
make a metaphysical answer that's all
about becoming apex predators and
dog-eat-dog kind of stuff and whatever
right that's actually an important one
to address because it's a still very
pernicious worldview nature's kind of
just cruel and optimizing it mmm anyone
who spent time in nature and watched
predation knows that it's pretty [ __ ]
cruel and the things that are the
fittest and the fittest can involve
suit of that being capable of
understanding Darwinian kind of process
should seek to be as fit as they can be
and that that's just being part of the
natural order of things and that not you
know of every species the weak ones
dying and giving cold is actually what
strengthens the genetics and drives
evolution forward so that cruelty the
predator usually taking the weak prey
out more is actually what's making the
prey better be because they're getting
the weak genes out and so then the
stronger genes come the slightly faster
lion that eats the slow goes L makes
game out because they'll slower over a
long periods of time so ultimately
predatory dynamics violence winning
competition is what drives all good
things in progress and like that that's
a very classic very narrow eye idea that
takes one very tiny part of science and
tries to blow it up to be the meta frame
and then interpret it in a way that
people wanted to interpret anyways to
basically justify [ __ ] that was that
they wanted to do I won't say the name
but a loved the people that are amongst
the most powerful people in the world in
terms of high finance have basically
quoted almost all of this to me verbatim
in conversations as how they see the
world and and they said you know either
like basically apex predators define the
topology of the space and so either
you're the apex predator or somebody
else is but the apex predators are gonna
be the one who runs [ __ ] and if you
don't like that you just won't be one of
the ones who run [ __ ] one of the guys
all animals are either predators or prey
and predators don't feel bad when they
kill prey and if you feel bad when the
prey humans die then you just said what
kind of animal you are and that animal
doesn't run the world and the of the
Predators who don't make it to alpha
apex they also aren't the ones whose
genes really go and run the world and if
you don't like the way that alpha apex
are won't make any difference because
they'll still be the ones who run the
world you just won't be part of it and
you know this the same conversation went
to other places about why the Holocaust
was a good thing for Jews and because
they got the State of Israel and nukes
and anti-semitism became a bad word and
etc like thinking about you can see what
that worldview does right the worldview
makes people to think like that [Music]
[Music]
the commerce sisters conversation
wouldn't go to much darker places - but
can I ask how did you feel hearing those
sorts of concepts come from people who
not only can imagine it from an armchair
philosophy perspective but actually have
the power to be able to wield it in the
real world as well
was that distressing to hear to sit down
opposite somebody and hear that yes
super distressing at first it was
something I didn't have I didn't have a
reference frame for from how I grew up
and that also meant they didn't
understand critical things about the
world that are important if you actually
want to be able to make a difference to
things in the world and so one of the
things that I started noticing was how
much there are certain psychological
dispositions that seek power more than
others and that are also willing to use
power in ways that give them more power
including by disempowering everybody
else and that those people have ended up
being the people with most power most of
the time what are the most effective the
website prepared to go to the places
where are the people's sense of empathy
or virtue or in a compass or whatever it
might be would stop them before that
right so effective at a specific thing
and a specific thing that ends up
winning in a natural selection of
violence and so you might have a
peaceful culture that is way more
effective at producing happy people and
producing kind people in living in
harmony with the land but Genghis Khan
or Alexander the Great or whatever will
come slaughter them and take their space
and take their stuff and so then the
memes that go on or the memes that were
effective at winning in the natural
selection of warfare [Music]
[Music]
it ends up being that if you that drives
an arms race right because then somebody
becomes better at war so somebody else
has to get those same weapons plus the
counter weapons plus better weapons and
an eventually you get an exponential
curve where it turns into AI empowered
drones and bio weapons and etc and it's
actually too big to use any of the
weapons safely and you destroy the whole
world and that's why I work on
catastrophic risk is the pattern of how
we have made it through the local issues
is actually what's driving the global
issues currently that kind of rival risk
be the apex predator kind of thing at
scale is actually destroying the
capability for civilization to keep
going on
period and so this apex predator thing
we're not apex predators that's just
gibberish this is a really important
thing I'd like people to understand in
orcas an apex predator right killer
whale top predator in their environment
or polar bear or a tiger pick you right
there's lots of apex predators we could
pick but an orca is like the biggest one
you can think of so they're they're a
good example an orca can catch one fish
at a time right it's gonna go catch one
tuna and it's gonna miss most of the
time or one seal it can't it can't take
a mile long drift net and pull up a
hundred thousand tuna at once which we
can now with with industrialized dredge
net kind of fishing that that's not the
power of an apex predator rate a a polar
bear can kill one walrus at a time and
it's [ __ ] dangerous to do that and
it's pretty hard to do it can't slash
and burn an acre of forest a second
right or be able to do mountaintop
removal mining or factory farm whole
species of animal and hybridize new
species and extinct species so that's
not the power of apex predators that's
the power of gods were just shitty gods
if we say do do apex predator
have the ability to extinct whole
species quickly and destroy whole
ecosystems and make new ecosystems and
genetically engineered new species no
that's if that's not something that that
Darwinian process has anything to do
with Frank and so you think about if a
if a polar bear got really pissed and
went on a tirade and tried to break all
that it could how much harm could it do
compared to Trump or Putin with nukes
right like compared to one f-15 it's so
so then you say well who has the ability
to make new species and destroy species
and make new environments and destroy
them well we've thought of that
mythopoetic Lee as the domain of the
gods or nature itself since we have that
much power we can destroy nature itself
right and to not do that we have to be
safe vessels for that much power which
means that if you have the power of gods
you have to have the love and the wisdom
of God's to guide it into Holden and we
have developed in our power through
technology much much better than we have
developed in our love and wisdom to
wield that power well and we have
wielded our power to just how do i how
do we use our power to beat the other
guys and then they try to develop their
power but that process multiplied by
exponential tech destroys everything and
so we are at the brink of a phase shift
of either the end of civilization in the
not-too-distant future as we know it or
the emergence into something that is
actually worthy of calling civilization
right that is actually civil they can be
able to hold the power of AI and the
Internet of Things and geoengineering
and bioengineering and actually not [ __ ]
everything up with that much capability
there's this very deep question that say
as the power is getting stronger it's
also getting more decentralized right
so with CRISPR gene drives you can do
the level of bioengineering with a tiny
little lab that used to be a whole you
know the cutting edge of US military not
that many years ago and the same with
drone weaponry and whatever so we have
you know during the Cold War
we actually this important thing than
ascend until World War two we didn't
have the technological power to destroy
everything quickly as much as we would
have wanted to try we just couldn't for
the hundreds of thousands of years of
human history the most we could want to
destroy it would still be not that much
relative to the planet and then with the
bomb that changed like oh [ __ ] we can
actually make this place not habitable
for everybody pretty quickly with just
some pushes of buttons that's to be that
was the beginning of a whole new world
right and how do how do we deal with
having created a power that we can't use
or we don't exist and so when we created
that the entire world system had to be
recreated just to protect us from using
the bomb the Bretton Woods convention
coming out of World War two was
basically a whole new world system where
we had to have a United Nations because
individual national governments clearly
didn't prevent World War and we had to
have a world bank and we had to have a
totally new international monetary
policy and all of those kinds of
structures emerged then and we had to
have mutually assured destruction which
emerged a little bit later to make sure
that neither the US or the Soviets would
ever use that power right now me assured
destruction was this kind of automated
lockdown process that if anybody started
to fire up their nuke silos that the
other one the other ones would
automatically go so you couldn't
initiate the war without killing
yourself and that's what kept everybody
from doing it moocher sure destruction
was what saved us this is
some had computer glitches that started
to put us into launch sequence many
times and we only barely made it in
largely by luck
but that's where we only had two
superpowers that had that totally
catastrophic capability and those two
could fully spy on each other to know if
the other one was going to do something
and you only had one kind of catastrophe
weapon not lots of them two superpowers
one kind of catastrophe weapon and so
meat you assured destruction worked and
we we also wore when we start running
out of resources and then we're
competing for the same resources because
everybody's greed wants to get more
they're their own National Development
interests or their personal development
interests expressed as monetary
abundance says if there's a fixed
playing field of stuff my more has to be
your less okay [ __ ] it war right so one
of the other things that happened was
creating this kind of monetary system
coming out of World War two or we could
just make up [ __ ] tons of new money and
debt based finance and be able to create
this globalism and just create so much
physical abundance of wealth that we
didn't have to war right everybody could
be getting richer simultaneously that
was the idea it just happens whether
you're destroying the planet very
rapidly doing that by basically taking
all of nature and turning into trash
right which it is taking ecosystems that
took billions of years to develop and
Unruh new ibly destroying them on one
side and then turning them into
pollution on the other side after a very
short period of use and you just don't
get to keep doing that for very long on
a finite planet before you destroy the
planets ability to let you keep doing
that and also that that based finance
thing starts to catch up with you
because in order to pay back the debt
you got to take out more debt and you
know you get this embedded growth
obligation right you have to keep
growing exponentially year over year
just to break even because you get to
keep up with the interest
so we get to about where we are now and
the Bretton Woods world has completely
broken down because we can't keep just
debt based financing rapid growth to
prevent conflict because we already have
more of our total GDP going to servicing
the debt than is sustainable and so
we're at the end of the financial
systems ability to do that and Cova just
made that worse by lowering GDP and
increasing debt a lot and it was already
unsustainable we're near the planetary
boundaries on like a hundred different
boundaries and so we can't keep doing
the turn nature into trash but money
briefly on the way to trash process and
we have dozens of catastrophe weapons
now not just one and nukes there's just
not that many places that have uranium
and it's very hard to enrich and it's
not like a it's not like small groups
can really make nukes they're really
hard to make but that's not true for it
for weaponized drones they're really
easy to make and for a lot of other neat
types of exponential tech that
relatively small forces not even state
actors can make plus there's lots of
state actors that have new nukes now and
chemical weapons in bio weapons and
other things like that so now you're in
a world where you've got not two actors
but lots of actors more than we can even
identify ones that we don't even know
who can have catastrophe weapons and not
one type of catastrophe weapon but lots
of them where you don't have clear
counters for them and you're near the
planetary boundaries environmentally and
you're at the end of the economic
systems capability to keep doing the
thing it's done that's a transition point
point
and it's just I don't remember exactly
how we got here but important in
understanding this to say that the B oh
I was talking about the apex predator
model so that even before we had nukes
an apex predator couldn't doesn't make
something like a city
which is a completely altered
environment and we've been doing that
for thousands of years but and we've
been using that increased power
destructively and driving this arms race
of increasing destructive capacity but
at a certain point it became globally
catastrophic destruction and now it's
many many different methods of globally
catastrophic destruction initiate able
by many many actors and so this is now
we're like oh this is what the power of
gods without the love or wisdom to guide
it looks like and so you could ask this
question as exponential tech continues
and we get more power that becomes more
decentralized oh yeah it said all that
same nukes are pretty centralized but
the new tech is decentralized
how do we make a civilization that is
anti fragile with with decentralized
which means if I've got lots of
non-state actors that can make
catastrophe weapons and I don't even
know who they are how do we make a world
that doesn't break given the way that
humans have historically used power how
do we make a world where anybody can
interesting question it's a very
interesting question it doesn't surprise
me that we are in a situation where we
face challenges when we consider the the
intro to this discussion which was our
evolutionary predispositions are
socialized values that we consider to be
worth pursuing which are essentially
repurposed versions of a genetic
heritage no less austere it doesn't
surprise me with the most shaky
foundation ever that when you start to
add an awful lot of weight in the form
of power destructive power technological
power when you start to add that on top
that the system becomes incredibly
unstable I wonder whether because I I
consider myself to be a good person I'm
not perfect but I don't I don't plan on
blowing up the world right I don't want
to go out and hurt people I don't to go
out and kill people um for me I think
the idealist inside of me relating to
self-development thinks well if
everybody becomes more self-aware is
able to iterate the introspection and
and slowly become better over time
go to bed less stupid than when they
woke up naturally out of that system you
wouldn't have any of the pathologies
emerge you wouldn't have any of the
challenges emerge because every
individual agent within the system would
understand genuinely what is best for
them genuinely how to deploy that and
also would be using any spare capacity
that they have to then help others to
understand that and then further
progress their movement forward Aubry
Marcus on the show said you do not serve
others from your cup you serve others
from the source or the overflows around
your cup and what that means is you got
to sort your [ __ ] first and then what
you have as a surplus you use to help
others sort their [ __ ] that's how I saw
that and I wonder whether that's naivety
ignorance probably definitely a lot of
ignorance I've never been exposed to
someone who has been able to wield the
sort of power of the
people that you mentioned and and also
have that that mindset so probably some
ignorance there that I just haven't seen
this firsthand and it just sounds like a
Hollywood movie to hear that happen
right it just Suns totally detached from
yeah yeah yeah Daniel met a guy but they
don't really exist do they you're like
no these are actual people and yeah I
wonder I wonder how much of it is um I
wonder how much introspective work self
development working out what do you want
to want what should I want to want what
is genuinely good for me and then how
can I make what is good for me be good
for others I wonder how much of that can
be the answer to some of these
challenges that we face and where the
upper bound to what that can achieve is
a body isn't just 70 or 90 trillion
that would just be a pile of goo right
they'll just be bio protoplasm the body
is actually a coordination between those
it involves not just how they function
individually in a petri dish but how
they relate with each other to be able
to make tissues and organs and organ
systems and that whole thing right and
so a cell needs to do what it needs to
do to be a healthy cell but it also
needs to communicate with all the ones
around it to mediate what the tissue
needs to do and what it's because it
can't just be doing its own thing when
the muscle needs to flex that particular
muscle cell has to be engaged in the
process right and let's say that it's
being a good healthy cell but there's a
cancer cell nearby if some cells don't
actually take that cancer cell out it'll
replicate and kill the whole body and so
there is a need to be a healthy cell
there's also a need to coordinate with
those around you for the things that
need to happen there's also a need to
have an immune function when there are
things happening that damage the health
of the whole system
and so if we're talking about how do we
want to develop people we want to
develop people in all three of those ways
they want to be they want to have as
much capacity to do the things that they
should do individually they want to have
the capacity to synergize to to have
synergy with the people that are around
them and that they can access now
increasingly access I guess with the
tools that we have the immune function I
can't explain how does that manifest
that law is that just police what if you
see harm happening do you stop it do you
do something to correct the to correct
to harm and correct the sources of harm
who does right how does that differ from
synergy is it because the actor is
malignant as opposed to compliant or
cooperative well they're within a
actually very interesting in terms of
cancer because cancer isn't some
external pathogen it's a cell that
mutated in a way that stops doing
synergy with the other cells around it
right and because it's genetic code is
altered where it doesn't actually
identify with the rest of the whole in
the same way and so it doesn't want to
sacrifice its own maximum consumption of
sugar and reproduction rate to synergize
with everything it's like [ __ ] it I'm
just going to consume and replicate as
fast as I can which not which is like
really good for it for a short while but
it ends up killing itself when it kills
the host which is what humans are doing
with regard to the planet and also our
relationships with each other where you
do that with someone else and it
engenders enmity and war back and things
the bodies there's oxidative stress and
free radicals that are making cancer all
the time it's just it's also getting
addressed so the first stage of dealing
with cancer in a healthy body is just
not having that much carcinogenesis to
begin with right that the body is
actually doing a good job of dealing
with carcinogenic factors radicals and
oxidants and like that so cells aren't
turning cancerous that often if there's
too much carcinogenesis and this is why
we don't want exposed to carcinogenic
compounds right if there's too much
carcinogenesis it'll overload the body's
ability to deal with cancerous cells and
then you'll start to get a proliferation
so this is the preventative side how do
we have people not become cancer cells
in the first place how do we not deal
with it on the prison or judicial side
later but on how do we develop humans
that are psychologically healthy and if
psychologically healthy also means are
part of a whole so they behave in a way
then the next step is if a cell starts
to get damaged some oxidative damage
happens to it it trapped the rest of the
body tries to heal it first
can we actually bring antioxidants and
correct that process if that can't
happen then the body has to kill it if
that doesn't happen then it'll replicate
and usually kill the body so when we
start to think about the staging of the
immune function and what that represents
as a basis for thinking about judicial
type process the basis of it should be
proof identify what makes people orient
towards harming the Commons towards
violence towards sociopathy towards
greed and also identify what conditions
the best qualities in humans and try to
support all humans to have better
development right then there is a
protective function if people are
harming other people how do we prevent
the harm from happening and how do we
try to actually rehabilitate which is
the corrective force and it's only if
rehabilitation can happen that some
ongoing protection from that being able
to continue to cause harm has to occur
so you don't go kill people in Nigeria
to get to advance your oil interests
away a Nigerian oil Lord does but you
buy gas for your car or whatever the
equivalent is right which is ultimately
paying the supply chain to do the thing
it does which means paying the Nigerian
warlords at some part of the supply
chain you might never do the kind of
gruesome torture that happens inside of
a factory farm but you might go to a
restaurant and buy something that came
from a factory farm which is paying
someone to do those wet works and so
there starts to be this deep and
responsibility question of oh I'm
affecting the world at scale in a way
I'm not seeing through the supply chains
I'm interacting with
and so now there's harm that's being
caused that I'm not standing up to and
I'm also complicit with and it's not the
job of the police to stop that because
it's granted by law that that can happen
but it's not right law right law
wouldn't allow a factory farm you know
or those other things to occur so didn't
we have to say so do i what is mine to
do to actually see the injustice isn't
harms and problems in the world what is
mine to actually step up and resolve
that's a also important part of the
question very symbolic I like the
analogy to the cancer cells I'm going
back two years ago to an episode I did
with Cory Alan meditation teacher and he
had this analogy way he thinks when
someone gets angry with him as a
conversation Oh someone cuts him off in
traffic or or something happens that
cuts in line at the checkout and then
and then you can see they're itching for
event and he he treats that anger like a
pathogen like a flu virus and what he
thinks in his mind is I wonder where
that came from
like I wonder what the heritage of that
anger is like who passed it on to you
then who passed it on to them then who
passed it on to them then where did that
emerge from and that's the
interconnectedness right yeah the
interconnectedness it's a it's a basis
for compassion and understanding and
it's also an immune function to keep
yourself from getting infected
because if you get pissed off back at
them and you understand it as a pathogen
you'll realize that you actually just
lost your sovereignty and just got infected
infected
and if you see that as you know I don't
want to get infected then you're like oh
I mean you're going to relate to this
differently you can also be a be a
little bit of a bookend as well right if
that is part of a cathartic venting
procedure that allows that person to
drop their anger down by X percent but
you don't then pass it you don't hold
that rock and then pass it on then
through being conscious through the
mindfulness gap of being aware of the
trigger that's happened you can let that
go you can be you can reduce the entropy
in the system I guess you could say it
as is that a way to put it
yeah there's a there's a fine point of
nuance here which is not going into
reaction about someone else's poor
behavior also doesn't mean condoning it
and doesn't mean not having boundaries
it's actually very important to be able
to say I know that that person does that
abusive behavior because they were hurt
when they were a kid I know that wasn't
their fault
I actually feel shocked ton of
compassion for that kid I know they had
a head injury in war right and that's
really [ __ ] him up and they still
can't do that to me
and so I love them I forgive them and I
won't let them do that anymore it's a
difficult line to balance I had a
neuroscientist on talking about the
neuroscience underpinning the seven
deadly sins very interesting very cool
rework of that guy called Jack Lewis
bridge guy and everything all of them
were in moderation but not too much in
moderation but not too much Senecas
virtuous mean yeah in moderation but not
too much and it is so hard we are
absolutist creatures if you put a packet
of biscuits in front of me and say I can
eat nan or I can eat all of them
both of those situations are fine by me
if you say that I can only have one or
that half a biscuit torture yeah and so
this process of the balance of right
boundaries and right compassion there is
no algorithm for it to get it right
there isn't like a general rule of thumb
that is always the right answer it it's
it's something you actually have to
think about and feel into each situation
the instantiation of that situation and
you wrestle with it [Music]
[Music]
there are plenty of times where someone
does the tough love thing to a friend or
a family member that has addiction going
on and that's what it took for the
person to finally turn around plenty of
other times where someone does the tough
love thing and the person who just goes
and kills themselves and that same
person had they got to support it
another therapy a rehab clinic or
whatever could have turned around and so
what the right answer is is not like if
you have a very fast default it's
probably wrong it's something that you
have to really take the time to reflect
into what is actually called for here
and then reflect into what are my biases
am i biasing and they I don't want to
take their burden on or biasing and the
codependent I must take it on direction
that's gonna make me less clear it makes
me think about the is an old distinction
that you brought up and also about what
self development is at it's very core
which is trying to model an effective
way to operate within the world it's
trying to make as scientific as possible
the way that you behave the way that I
behave sometimes the way that we behave
there's books about relationships and
friendship and and and stuff like that
but mostly it tends to be personal
sovereignty upward mobility agency stuff
like that but as you've just identified
there in that situation like there is no
one-size-fits-all there is no objective
way to decide what the life that you
should lead is what your definition of a
good life is it's got a shaky foundation
evolutionarily it's got a very biased
foundation culturally and socially you
know that is what we're trying to
achieve what is the best way for me to
operate within this world but there is
no there is no Universal answer to that
this better end is worse but better by
who worse by who
you know you can you can run this back
as far as you want yeah so I would say that
wisdom is not algorithmic and cannot be
made algorithmic you can't have a if
this then that algorithm that actually
equals wisdom and and if you can then
we're just a intermediate bootloader for
the AIS that are better creatures than
us right I could actually go through
some long derivations as to why I think
consciousness is not computational not
purely computational but there's
something happening in consciousness
that is fundamentally trans
computational so strong computationalism
is the idea that computation is both
necessary and sufficient for
consciousness mind and universe and I
so there is something to the nature of
choice and this also good choice ethics
that can be informed by lots of
different principles and considerations
but not perfectly prescribed
and this is why at lower stages of
development when people can't hold as
much complexity and as much nuance with
as much awareness sometimes they need
just simple rules to not go off the
rails so you think of the 10
commandments as rules like that right if
you need to know don't kill anybody and
don't rape anything by the end don't
adulterer and whatever like okay will
tell you those things don't do that like
the society would be better if people
don't do those things but then you
notice New Testament comes along and
Jesus gives a different kind of teaching
right do unto others as you would have
them do unto you love thy neighbor as
thyself it actually doesn't tell you
isn't a do something or don't do something it's actually consider
something it's actually consider something a certain way so try to put
something a certain way so try to put yourself into the shoes of whoever
yourself into the shoes of whoever you're about to act and ask how you
you're about to act and ask how you would feel engage in empathy
would feel engage in empathy so it's an ethic that guides the
so it's an ethic that guides the guidance is consider something but not
guidance is consider something but not do this or don't do that so it's
do this or don't do that so it's ultimately not prescriptive but there's
ultimately not prescriptive but there's still wisdom that can be offered so
still wisdom that can be offered so there's a lot of kind of general
there's a lot of kind of general principles that we can offer that
principles that we can offer that support wisdom but it's not reducible to
support wisdom but it's not reducible to prescription now this is also something
prescription now this is also something about personal development if one is
about personal development if one is wanting to grow in wisdom as it doesn't
wanting to grow in wisdom as it doesn't look like do this thing
and so you also can't signal it very effectively by doing a particular thing
effectively by doing a particular thing [Music]
I mean someone could even try to signal aligned with what I just said right they
aligned with what I just said right they could say let me consider that as just
could say let me consider that as just some kind of signaling but that what I'm
some kind of signaling but that what I'm talking about like is a depth of
talking about like is a depth of earnestness of what do I actually care
earnestness of what do I actually care about and why do I care about it and how
about and why do I care about it and how do I reflect on what I believe to be
do I reflect on what I believe to be both true and meaningful right now and
both true and meaningful right now and what is right action factoring what I
what is right action factoring what I understand to be true and what I
understand to be true and what I understand to be meaningful and how
understand to be meaningful and how certain am I on what I think is true and
certain am I on what I think is true and how bias MI and what I think is
how bias MI and what I think is meaningful and can I refine those as
meaningful and can I refine those as well
it surprises me that we're even able to get out of bed in the morning like
get out of bed in the morning like should I why I mean is this maybe I
should I why I mean is this maybe I don't know sure I mean do I take the
don't know sure I mean do I take the covers off with my left hand do I take
covers off with my left hand do I take the covers off with my right hand but
the covers off with my right hand but this is the job of the ego right and
this is the job of the ego right and this is part of I suppose the usefulness
this is part of I suppose the usefulness of the fact that we are still in some
of the fact that we are still in some part primitive creatures that it allows
part primitive creatures that it allows us to have sufficient momentum to
us to have sufficient momentum to overcome the inertia a constant rolling
overcome the inertia a constant rolling existential crisis would stop us from
existential crisis would stop us from from being able to do the rolling
from being able to do the rolling existential crisis
which I grew up with mostly comes Joseph Campbell had some nice quote something
Campbell had some nice quote something about that I'm getting the quote wrong
about that I'm getting the quote wrong but paraphrasing that people wonder
but paraphrasing that people wonder about the purpose of life when they
about the purpose of life when they aren't engaged in the experience of
aren't engaged in the experience of feeling alive a little bit and that and
feeling alive a little bit and that and this is that prima facie thing that we
this is that prima facie thing that we were talking about in moments of full
were talking about in moments of full engagement with reality whether its
engagement with reality whether its fascination learning something or all at
fascination learning something or all at the beauty of something or whatever it
the beauty of something or whatever it is is typically not when people are in
is is typically not when people are in existential angst wondering what's
existential angst wondering what's meaningful or not because it is it is
meaningful or not because it is it is its present it is it is indwelling
its present it is it is indwelling within the experience right the
within the experience right the meaningfulness is eminent now if I'm
meaningfulness is eminent now if I'm disconnected from feeling the
disconnected from feeling the meaningfulness of life no thought will
meaningfulness of life no thought will replace that feeling and so then you
replace that feeling and so then you know separate I can say well what's
know separate I can say well what's what's the purpose of life well it's to
what's the purpose of life well it's to learn well what's the [ __ ] purpose of
learn well what's the [ __ ] purpose of learning well because you grow what's
learning well because you grow what's the purpose of that well then you can do
the purpose of that well then you can do more what's the purpose and there's no
more what's the purpose and there's no end to that right there's no terminal
end to that right there's no terminal value that you get to where you don't
value that you get to where you don't say why why that and that's because what
say why why that and that's because what we're training it's it's actually just a
we're training it's it's actually just a ridiculous question it's saying what
ridiculous question it's saying what part of reality is why all of it right
part of reality is why all of it right that's the question if I'm trying to say
that's the question if I'm trying to say the purpose of reality is it's love or
the purpose of reality is it's love or its growth or its awakening or whatever
its growth or its awakening or whatever it is I'm trying to I'm trying to take
it is I'm trying to I'm trying to take some little simple part I can
some little simple part I can conceptualize and make that the ordinate
conceptualize and make that the ordinate of everything which is just actually
of everything which is just actually silly right
you'll notice that purpose is a utilitarian concept the purpose of X is
utilitarian concept the purpose of X is y the purpose of my job is I do this
y the purpose of my job is I do this function at the business well if I if
function at the business well if I if okay I do the marketing of the business
okay I do the marketing of the business or the accounting or whatever it is well
or the accounting or whatever it is well if I assume the business existing
if I assume the business existing matters I then it makes sense why me
matters I then it makes sense why me doing that thing matters if it's
doing that thing matters if it's utilitarian right assuming the value of
utilitarian right assuming the value of y then I can say X relative to it but
y then I can say X relative to it but purpose is always extrinsic relational
purpose is always extrinsic relational utilitarian so if I say what is the
utilitarian so if I say what is the purpose of all of reality what is there
purpose of all of reality what is there outside of reality to ground that in
outside of reality to ground that in reference to so it's just actually ill
reference to so it's just actually ill question because purpose is a smaller
question because purpose is a smaller concept in reality is so yes reality
concept in reality is so yes reality doesn't have a purpose in the sense that
doesn't have a purpose in the sense that anything within reality does but it's
anything within reality does but it's also not purposeless
also not purposeless in the way that we think of
in the way that we think of purposelessness of things inside of
purposelessness of things inside of reality so the concept is too small to
reality so the concept is too small to apply do you know where I have my
apply do you know where I have my existential crises it's when I'm in the
existential crises it's when I'm in the supermarket at 3:00 a.m. every time
supermarket at 3:00 a.m. every time every time I get in there if I've been
every time I get in there if I've been at work and I've finished I've finished
at work and I've finished I've finished at the club and there's this big state
at the club and there's this big state change for me being loud and full of
change for me being loud and full of havoc and then I'm on my way home and I
havoc and then I'm on my way home and I realized that I don't have x4 tomorrow
realized that I don't have x4 tomorrow and then that's when it strikes me when
and then that's when it strikes me when I'm in the supermarket you're totally
I'm in the supermarket you're totally correct it doesn't happen when you're
correct it doesn't happen when you're sat with the people that you care about
sat with the people that you care about it doesn't happen when you're on your
it doesn't happen when you're on your morning walk and just considering what
morning walk and just considering what it feels like to have the Sun on your
it feels like to have the Sun on your skin you know those are the times so
skin you know those are the times so does that not mean that seeking those
does that not mean that seeking those experiences where we do feel connected
experiences where we do feel connected and we do feel present is that why is
and we do feel present is that why is that not the North Star for how we
that not the North Star for how we should spend our lives
should spend our lives first I would love to suggest that you
first I would love to suggest that you go to the grocery store at 3:00 a.m. a
go to the grocery store at 3:00 a.m. a few times on purpose to have the most
few times on purpose to have the most meaningful connection with the people
meaningful connection with the people who are there you possibly can go with
who are there you possibly can go with that intention to transcend the the
that intention to transcend the the crisis well you have a Pavlovian
crisis well you have a Pavlovian conditioning now associated with that
conditioning now associated with that right you've had that experience there
right you've had that experience there enough times it's just going there
enough times it's just going there triggers it and you can recondition that
triggers it and you can recondition that and you can recognize having choice and
and you can recognize having choice and agency that in a place where you're
agency that in a place where you're questioning meaningfulness you can bring
questioning meaningfulness you can bring it yeah that's beautiful
it yeah that's beautiful [Music]
and it may simply be acknowledgement to one of the people who are working there
one of the people who are working there and maybe a deeper conversation
I've had so many experiences having a conversation with the person driving
conversation with the person driving uber for me instead of being on my
uber for me instead of being on my iPhone that ended up being profoundly
iPhone that ended up being profoundly enlightening and some of whom are
enlightening and some of whom are friends years later
friends years later so it's interesting what happens when
so it's interesting what happens when you explore that way 100% I mean this is
you explore that way 100% I mean this is before we get on to should we seek being
before we get on to should we seek being present this is the probably the most
present this is the probably the most meaningful the most important one of the
meaningful the most important one of the most important changes I've made over
most important changes I've made over the last few years as someone who's an
the last few years as someone who's an only child who spends a lot of time in
only child who spends a lot of time in solitude working who is comfortable with
solitude working who is comfortable with my own company overly comfortable with
my own company overly comfortable with my own company learning the fulfillment
my own company learning the fulfillment and the pleasure that comes from
and the pleasure that comes from connecting with other people for no
connecting with other people for no reason other than their there and that
reason other than their there and that they are there and you can connect with
they are there and you can connect with them it's been such a huge change like a
them it's been such a huge change like a ridiculously big change for me and it
ridiculously big change for me and it sounds so stupid you know especially if
sounds so stupid you know especially if you grew up with that five brothers and
you grew up with that five brothers and sisters and you all see each other every
sisters and you all see each other every Christmas and do whatever may be your
Christmas and do whatever may be your worldview and mine you can't really
worldview and mine you can't really understand why I wouldn't think that
understand why I wouldn't think that that would be a good thing to do but I'm
that would be a good thing to do but I'm telling you that I did telling you that
telling you that I did telling you that it was very much a single focused lack
it was very much a single focused lack of just lack of even awareness of other
of just lack of even awareness of other people not even a consideration had I've
people not even a consideration had I've been aware I probably would have
been aware I probably would have considered but it was incredibly
considered but it was incredibly blinkers on and um yeah man like so this
blinkers on and um yeah man like so this answers the question you were starting
answers the question you were starting to ask right about pursuing a state okay
to ask right about pursuing a state okay that can be done narcissistically and it
that can be done narcissistically and it won't produce a meaningful life why
so you run a thought experiment everybody in the world does that and
everybody in the world does that and you're here by yourself but you can have
you're here by yourself but you can have like a fighter jet and Lamborghinis and
like a fighter jet and Lamborghinis and like whatever mansion you want there's
like whatever mansion you want there's just nobody else here most people when
just nobody else here most people when they take time to really run through
they take time to really run through that scenario try to figure out how to
that scenario try to figure out how to entertain themselves with experiences
entertain themselves with experiences for a while and then fundamentally can't
for a while and then fundamentally can't find meaningfulness in it and to the
find meaningfulness in it and to the extent they can it's because they have
extent they can it's because they have the idea of a god which is still a being
the idea of a god which is still a being they're relating with or they get really
they're relating with or they get really friendly with animals but ultimately
friendly with animals but ultimately consciousness wants to be in
consciousness wants to be in relationship with consciousness and as
relationship with consciousness and as the basis of any way someone reifies
the basis of any way someone reifies meaningfulness do you think that's
meaningfulness do you think that's fundamental to consciousness or do you
fundamental to consciousness or do you think that that's embedded due to these
think that that's embedded due to these social animals that we are and that
social animals that we are and that every other animal is
both interesting can you can you talk me through your thinking with regards to
through your thinking with regards to how its fundamental to consciousness so
how its fundamental to consciousness so we think of consciousness associated
we think of consciousness associated with an organism like a person maybe a
with an organism like a person maybe a dog whatever right and we think of them
dog whatever right and we think of them having some kind of separate
having some kind of separate consciousness associated with that brain
consciousness associated with that brain in that body container and so the
in that body container and so the consciousness is just is the emergent
consciousness is just is the emergent property of their brain or dwells in it
property of their brain or dwells in it or something like that this is this is a
or something like that this is this is a really deeply flawed concept because
really deeply flawed concept because inside of my body brain package that I
inside of my body brain package that I call I physically that I think my
call I physically that I think my consciousness associated with doesn't
consciousness associated with doesn't include all of the coral reef and
doesn't include all of the plants and doesn't include the soil microbiome I
doesn't include the soil microbiome I don't think of those as I but I wouldn't
don't think of those as I but I wouldn't exist without all of them
so can I say that my consciousness is an emergent property of this thing without
emergent property of this thing without saying it's an emergent property of all
saying it's an emergent property of all of that because this thing is an
of that because this thing is an emergent property of all of that
emergent property of all of that and so without the plants I'm not even
and so without the plants I'm not even an idea
there isn't even a well-formed concept of me that exists without an atmosphere
of me that exists without an atmosphere and oxygen and without the Sun and
and oxygen and without the Sun and without the other planets that keep the
without the other planets that keep the asteroids from hitting us and without it
asteroids from hitting us and without it just keep going on and we find the
just keep going on and we find the entire universe is configured in a way
entire universe is configured in a way that I'm the emergent property of a part
that I'm the emergent property of a part of it and you take away the galactic
of it and you take away the galactic center you take away the Sun you take
center you take away the Sun you take away the other planets you take away the
away the other planets you take away the gravitational field of the
gravitational field of the electromagnetic field or the bacteria
electromagnetic field or the bacteria and I don't exist
so my consciousness is not an emergent property so imagine putting me in a
property so imagine putting me in a complete and perfect vacuum and just
complete and perfect vacuum and just imagine I didn't physically die for a
imagine I didn't physically die for a moment which I of course would what
moment which I of course would what would the sensory experience be there'd
would the sensory experience be there'd be no sensory input what would the
be no sensory input what would the contents of consciousness with no
contents of consciousness with no sensory input be I think in words that
sensory input be I think in words that were developed by other people I think
were developed by other people I think in images that were created by other
in images that were created by other people ie
all of the contents of my consciousness came from the world so the idea that
came from the world so the idea that it's my consciousness is just kind of
it's my consciousness is just kind of sloppy thinking and a misnomer that's
sloppy thinking and a misnomer that's fantastic
fantastic the fact that you are the tip of the
the fact that you are the tip of the finger which is the end of everything
finger which is the end of everything which came before which permitted you to
which came before which permitted you to be and still not just before and still
be and still not just before and still continues to permit you to be yeah turn
continues to permit you to be yeah turn the Sun off by yeah we were touching on
being present as being the thing that you are to chase in order to discover
you are to chase in order to discover meaning or why is that why is that not
meaning or why is that why is that not purely the thing that you should you
purely the thing that you should you should seek and I think that you
should seek and I think that you mentioned about narcissism and the fact
mentioned about narcissism and the fact that there's an interconnectedness with
that there's an interconnectedness with other people whether I am
pursuing a state through racing cars or doing cocaine or doing the right kind of
doing cocaine or doing the right kind of psychedelics or meditation
it's not that different it's some kind of process I can find to give me some
of process I can find to give me some state of experience that I feel that I
state of experience that I feel that I don't have and that I need to arrange
don't have and that I need to arrange the world a particular way for me to
the world a particular way for me to have
the Bible or the Tao Te Ching all of the various wisdom traditions were
various wisdom traditions were interesting to me growing up so I'm not
interesting to me growing up so I'm not saying this in a way that people have to
saying this in a way that people have to accept that book as anything other than
accept that book as anything other than interesting remember there was a quote
interesting remember there was a quote in Luke attributed to Jesus that really
in Luke attributed to Jesus that really bothered me as a kid and I came to
bothered me as a kid and I came to understand the really profound wisdom in
understand the really profound wisdom in it after contemplating him for a long
it after contemplating him for a long time and I may be obvious for a lot of
time and I may be obvious for a lot of people said to those who have more shall
people said to those who have more shall be given and to those who don't have the
be given and to those who don't have the little they have will be taken away and
little they have will be taken away and it really deeply bothered because of the
it really deeply bothered because of the context of it being in the Bible and
context of it being in the Bible and something that someone like Jesus would
something that someone like Jesus would say that I wanted to be Robin hood-like
say that I wanted to be Robin hood-like and say like no no well well we'll give
and say like no no well well we'll give to those who don't have
and we can see where this is true just in terms of like if you have debt you
in terms of like if you have debt you get compounding interest in debt and if
get compounding interest in debt and if you have savings you get compounding
you have savings you get compounding interest in savings to those who have
interest in savings to those who have more as given to those who don't have
more as given to those who don't have the little they have is taken away it it
the little they have is taken away it it just ends up being something that shows
just ends up being something that shows up as true in lots of places when
up as true in lots of places when someone is in a state of not having
someone is in a state of not having around relationships and they feel
around relationships and they feel lonely and upset with people and
lonely and upset with people and whatever they're not maximally
whatever they're not maximally attractive as a person in that state
attractive as a person in that state right when someone's in the kind of
right when someone's in the kind of abundance of their relationships they
abundance of their relationships they show up in a way that's more attractive
show up in a way that's more attractive to those who have more it's given
to those who have more it's given ultimately they have and not have our
ultimately they have and not have our states of consciousness
and so there is a place where I feel like I don't have enough and I'm some
like I don't have enough and I'm some kind of empty needy thing that needs to
kind of empty needy thing that needs to get mine from the world whatever that is
get mine from the world whatever that is more acknowledgement more money more
more acknowledgement more money more muscle more knowledge more something
muscle more knowledge more something more good state through meditation but
more good state through meditation but I'm still basically coming from some
I'm still basically coming from some kind of lack and what what's in it for
kind of lack and what what's in it for me I think okay so growth can happen in
me I think okay so growth can happen in that place but there is a there's a
that place but there is a there's a place for that concert to shift
where I stop thinking I need anything from the world in particular
and there is a felt sense of connection to life that has a fullness indwelling
to life that has a fullness indwelling within it and then what what do I get
within it and then what what do I get out of life stops being the relevant
out of life stops being the relevant question and how do I pursue a
question and how do I pursue a particular state stops becoming the
particular state stops becoming the relevant question and are there other
relevant question and are there other people who are suffering who don't know
people who are suffering who don't know how to shift it that I can do something
how to shift it that I can do something about and are there things that I can
about and are there things that I can create for the world starts to become a
create for the world starts to become a more interesting question and I think
more interesting question and I think life kind of starts there
I love it I love it it Maps very closely on to the reality that I've started to
on to the reality that I've started to see slivers of I think principally
see slivers of I think principally through this project balsa through other
through this project balsa through other things I think you've given a very
things I think you've given a very robust framework for people to
robust framework for people to understand the interconnectedness the
understand the interconnectedness the fact that you are because of everything
fact that you are because of everything that came before and everything which is
that came before and everything which is still coming now the fact that
you have the opportunity to affect those around you in a way that allows you to
around you in a way that allows you to make them more of them and less of the
make them more of them and less of the things that they don't want to be people
things that they don't want to be people are always going to weaponize in a rival
are always going to weaponize in a rival risk capitalist economy people are
risk capitalist economy people are always going to be able to weaponize
always going to be able to weaponize meaning seeking wisdom seeking a better
meaning seeking wisdom seeking a better life state change whatever it might be
life state change whatever it might be they're always going to be able to do
they're always going to be able to do that because there is going to be a
that because there is going to be a reward for the people who are able to
reward for the people who are able to dangle that carrot and allow other
dangle that carrot and allow other people to go chasing after it but the
people to go chasing after it but the fact that so many of the pleasures that
fact that so many of the pleasures that we have in life genuine pleasures that
we have in life genuine pleasures that we have in life come from such simple
we have in life come from such simple things
should be a signal to people it's a very subtle signal it's not as loud or as
subtle signal it's not as loud or as brash as a Lamborghini blasting past but
brash as a Lamborghini blasting past but it should be a signal to people of where
it should be a signal to people of where to look right like it should be
where you should point your attention because hedonic adaptation hedonic
because hedonic adaptation hedonic treadmill lottery winner versus person
treadmill lottery winner versus person that loses their legs you know pick your
that loses their legs you know pick your mental model with regards to that and
mental model with regards to that and yeah if you consistently connected with
yeah if you consistently connected with the people that were around you and felt
the people that were around you and felt like you were contributing to something
like you were contributing to something that you genuinely care about and we're
that you genuinely care about and we're progressing and we're still satisfying
progressing and we're still satisfying that airy review that wants to feel like
that airy review that wants to feel like growth like everything else I think
growth like everything else I think would fall into place
would fall into place and the beauty of the extraordinary in
and the beauty of the extraordinary in the ordinary is is something hopefully
the ordinary is is something hopefully that as people develop themselves they
that as people develop themselves they start to strip away the things that they
start to strip away the things that they think that they need and are left with
think that they need and are left with with something which is more more simple
with something which is more more simple and more pure and I loved at the start I
and more pure and I loved at the start I didn't I didn't bring it up but as you
didn't I didn't bring it up but as you mentioned about sort of the tier 1 tier
mentioned about sort of the tier 1 tier 2 tier 3 of self development that really
2 tier 3 of self development that really struck me about His Dark Materials which
struck me about His Dark Materials which is a children's trilogy by Philip
is a children's trilogy by Philip Pullman and in it there's a girl called
Pullman and in it there's a girl called Lyra Belacqua gets the name Lyra silver
Lyra Belacqua gets the name Lyra silver tongue halfway through you can tell her
tongue halfway through you can tell her I listen to it and read it a lot as a
I listen to it and read it a lot as a kid and um she's given this
kid and um she's given this truth-telling device called an early
truth-telling device called an early Theo meter and she's given it and the
Theo meter and she's given it and the nuns in the Oxford of the Universe that
nuns in the Oxford of the Universe that she lives in it's a multiverse story
she lives in it's a multiverse story then the nuns of the the University that
then the nuns of the the University that she lives in tell her this story about
she lives in tell her this story about how people need to study for their
how people need to study for their entire lives I have to study for my
entire lives I have to study for my entire life but the people who have
entire life but the people who have these devices have to study the books
these devices have to study the books and eBooks arcane texts they have to
and eBooks arcane texts they have to understand all of these different things
understand all of these different things and then they can read them and she's
and then they can read them and she's she's given one in secret and it turns
she's given one in secret and it turns out that she can read it
out that she can read it she's never learned to she can read it
she's never learned to she can read it so she has natural grace
so she has natural grace she has unconscious competence
she has unconscious competence and she's able to read it which he could
and she's able to read it which he could draw an analogy to experiencing life the
draw an analogy to experiencing life the purity of experiencing life as a child
purity of experiencing life as a child there's a lucuma song which opens up at
there's a lucuma song which opens up at 17 you don't think that much about life
17 you don't think that much about life you just live it and I think that's the
you just live it and I think that's the same then she hits puberty and as she
same then she hits puberty and as she hits puberty she loses the ability to
hits puberty she loses the ability to read this truth-telling device
read this truth-telling device she loses that conscious on competence
she loses that conscious on competence she becomes aware it's the fall from
she becomes aware it's the fall from grace it's and then there's this like
grace it's and then there's this like tiny little passage towards the end of
tiny little passage towards the end of the book and she's speaking to somebody
the book and she's speaking to somebody another one of the nuns about how am I
another one of the nuns about how am I going to get the ability to tell the
going to get the ability to tell the truth back from from my device from the
truth back from from my device from the Alethea meter and she says my dear child
Alethea meter and she says my dear child it will take you a lifetime of study but
it will take you a lifetime of study but the depth of your understanding will be
the depth of your understanding will be deeper and greater than it ever ever was
deeper and greater than it ever ever was before conscious competence and I think
before conscious competence and I think that timeline Maps sort of quite nicely
that timeline Maps sort of quite nicely on to what I hope personal development
on to what I hope personal development self development actually ends up being
self development actually ends up being for people yeah there's definitely a
for people yeah there's definitely a presence that we see in children they
presence that we see in children they can be overjoyed and fulfilled with the
can be overjoyed and fulfilled with the experience of life and this is the in no
experience of life and this is the in no way except you turn and become like
way except you turn and become like little children she pass on the kingdom
little children she pass on the kingdom pepper and to be able to have a
pepper and to be able to have a connectedness with life that isn't
connectedness with life that isn't always seeking what stimulus is gonna
always seeking what stimulus is gonna fulfill me next with adult capacities
fulfill me next with adult capacities that can actually show up to the world
that can actually show up to the world is very interesting there was a I saw
is very interesting there was a I saw Jordan Peterson life a couple of years
Jordan Peterson life a couple of years ago and they were reading questions out
ago and they were reading questions out from Twitter that had been submitted
from Twitter that had been submitted Dave Rubin goes up on stage and asks in
Dave Rubin goes up on stage and asks in these questions and one of the questions
these questions and one of the questions that somebody asked him was that
that somebody asked him was that essentially boiled down to
essentially boiled down to the depth of my consciousness causes me
the depth of my consciousness causes me to suffer I wish that I thought less I
to suffer I wish that I thought less I wish that I didn't consider things so
wish that I didn't consider things so much it is both a blessing and a curse
much it is both a blessing and a curse to feel thoughts of things so very
to feel thoughts of things so very deeply and Jordans answer to that's
deeply and Jordans answer to that's stuck with me which was that you can try
stuck with me which was that you can try and regress back to a more animalistic
and regress back to a more animalistic more simple time which would be people
more simple time which would be people looking at children and being envy of
looking at children and being envy of their innocence right and thinking look
their innocence right and thinking look at how simple it is or looking at their
at how simple it is or looking at their dog and thinking look how simple it
dog and thinking look how simple it would be if I was just a dog you know I
would be if I was just a dog you know I just lie in the Sun and play with balls
just lie in the Sun and play with balls and stuff like that but you don't have
and stuff like that but you don't have that option and Jordan gave this really
that option and Jordan gave this really symbolic answer as he often does and he
symbolic answer as he often does and he said um you can take more of the poison
said um you can take more of the poison until you girdle it into a tonic that
until you girdle it into a tonic that allows you to rule your own world and I
allows you to rule your own world and I really like that I like the idea that
really like that I like the idea that it's not about escaping from Dante's
it's not about escaping from Dante's Inferno it's about going through every
Inferno it's about going through every single level right to the very very
single level right to the very very bottom and that's where you then sort of
bottom and that's where you then sort of break it all open Donnie man I feel like
break it all open Donnie man I feel like we could go on for forever but for me
we could go on for forever but for me it's 11:00 a.m. and for you it's 3:00
it's 11:00 a.m. and for you it's 3:00 a.m. so I feel like I sadly need to let
a.m. so I feel like I sadly need to let you go it's been a dude it's been six
you go it's been a dude it's been six months since we've been planning this
months since we've been planning this and I'm so grateful for you coming on
and I'm so grateful for you coming on can't share a closing thought absolutely
every emotion has a value and has a place and so someone has an idea that a
place and so someone has an idea that a more developed human state never has
more developed human state never has sadness or anger or fear then their idea
sadness or anger or fear then their idea of a more developed human state as a
of a more developed human state as a sociopath because the key kind of
sociopath because the key kind of definition and sociopathy is can't feel
definition and sociopathy is can't feel fear and remorse and guilt and certain
fear and remorse and guilt and certain negative emotions which is why they can
negative emotions which is why they can hurt people so easily
so if I'm angry I'm angry because maybe I can process it better and I can I can
I can process it better and I can I can write maybe I can I made up some fake
write maybe I can I made up some fake meanings and I'm angry about something
meanings and I'm angry about something that didn't even really happen I kind of
that didn't even really happen I kind of took what that person said the wrong way
took what that person said the wrong way whatever but insofar as I'm there's a
whatever but insofar as I'm there's a real thing and I'm responding to it and
real thing and I'm responding to it and anger is rising it's the there's
anger is rising it's the there's something that I care about or that I
something that I care about or that I love that I think somebody's harming and
love that I think somebody's harming and I'm focused on who's harming it right
I'm focused on who's harming it right I'm angry about litter because it
I'm angry about litter because it actually there's a care for nature in
actually there's a care for nature in the environment that is the basis of
the environment that is the basis of that or someone's hurting an animal or a
that or someone's hurting an animal or a kid or whatever it is and then anger
kid or whatever it is and then anger arises so the basis of the anchor is
arises so the basis of the anchor is love if there wasn't something I loved
love if there wasn't something I loved and cared about it just wouldn't give a
and cared about it just wouldn't give a [ __ ] go ahead and hurt it and if I'm
[ __ ] go ahead and hurt it and if I'm afraid I'm afraid that something that I
afraid I'm afraid that something that I care about is going to be harmed so
care about is going to be harmed so again the basis of the fear is love the
again the basis of the fear is love the same with sadness same with all so there
same with sadness same with all so there are times where based on what's going on
are times where based on what's going on in the world some anger arises and I
in the world some anger arises and I wouldn't want to feel any other way like
wouldn't want to feel any other way like there would be something wrong with me
there would be something wrong with me if I felt a different way because I'm
if I felt a different way because I'm not making up stories I'm not reactive
not making up stories I'm not reactive and I want to go hurt someone or
and I want to go hurt someone or whatever but there is a there is an
whatever but there is a there is an authentic love and care for the world
authentic love and care for the world that also is noticing an injustice and
that also is noticing an injustice and that it expresses to that emotion and me
that it expresses to that emotion and me feeling that in that moment is actually
feeling that in that moment is actually me and wholeness and relationship with
me and wholeness and relationship with life rightly so am i pursuing always
life rightly so am i pursuing always being in a particular kind of happy
being in a particular kind of happy state nope because that would be
state nope because that would be shutting off all of the intelligence
shutting off all of the intelligence that the various emotions that are
that the various emotions that are giving me real information about reality
giving me real information about reality are there is a certain kind of wholeness
are there is a certain kind of wholeness where
I'm not driven by I can experience desire and aversion but I'm not driven
desire and aversion but I'm not driven automatically by it
automatically by it I don't automatically think I don't
I don't automatically think I don't automatically react because I'm afraid
automatically react because I'm afraid of something or have to get something I
of something or have to get something I want I can actually just access okayness
want I can actually just access okayness right that's important but yeah I just
right that's important but yeah I just on this topic of should we all be
on this topic of should we all be seeking those states well yes sometimes
seeking those states well yes sometimes and like we were mentioning about but
and like we were mentioning about but you know even in the moment where
you know even in the moment where someone's feeling really angry at an
someone's feeling really angry at an injustice they're not questioning the
injustice they're not questioning the meaning of life that's also an
meaning of life that's also an experience of aliveness they might be
experience of aliveness they might be feeling meaningfulness very [ __ ]
feeling meaningfulness very [ __ ] clearly in that moment and so does one
clearly in that moment and so does one want to actually have their emotional
want to actually have their emotional self and in addition to their cognitive
self and in addition to their cognitive self connected with reality yes and so
self connected with reality yes and so does someone want to have some actual
does someone want to have some actual presence in that connection yes but that
presence in that connection yes but that looks like all the things what a
looks like all the things what a wonderful way to start my day and to
wonderful way to start my day and to finish yours I hope I hope that we don't
finish yours I hope I hope that we don't have to rearrange a million more times
have to rearrange a million more times but I absolutely love to have you back
but I absolutely love to have you back on man whenever whenever we can make
on man whenever whenever we can make time it was really it was really fun I
time it was really it was really fun I enjoyed the conversation with you and if
enjoyed the conversation with you and if it's something that your listeners find
it's something that your listeners find interesting and they have more questions
interesting and they have more questions and I'm happy to come back fantastic
and I'm happy to come back fantastic thank you so much
