0:05 ever scroll through the news and you
0:08 just think like how like how did they
0:11 get there how do we go from don't eat
0:13 the cookies before dinner to you know
0:15 trying to figure out like all these
0:18 really complex moral dilemas we see out
0:20 there in the world it is it's pretty
0:22 amazing to think about how we develop
0:25 that sense of right and wrong isn't it
0:27 it really is and uh one of the biggest
0:29 names in that is Colberg right
0:31 absolutely Berg's theory of moral
0:33 development which is the stage Theory
0:36 all about how people progress through
0:38 different stages of reasoning when it
0:40 comes to moral issues but he was really
0:42 focused on the individual right like
0:44 their own thought process yeah and it's
0:46 fascinating stuff but it does sort of
0:47 leave you with the question of like well
0:49 what about the environment what about
0:51 the context that those individuals are
0:53 developing in and that's where this idea
0:55 of Clark's transactional Theory comes in
0:57 oh yeah I like that so it's not just
0:58 like looking at the person it's looking
1:00 at everything around them too right yeah
1:02 exactly it's like you can't just look at
1:04 the plant growing you have to look at
1:06 the soil the sunlight all that stuff
1:08 yeah perfect I love that and so that's
1:10 kind of what we're diving into today is
1:12 this the way these two theories actually
1:15 go together to help us understand how
1:17 the environments we learn in can
1:19 actually shape our sense of what's right
1:21 and what's wrong yeah it's going to be
1:22 fun yeah it is going to be fun so first
1:24 up let's talk about this social presence
1:27 idea from Clark now I mean I think it
1:28 sounds kind of straightforward but how
1:30 does that actually play into the stages
1:32 that Colberg was talking about well you
1:34 know it's almost like social presence is
1:37 kind of like that real world application
1:38 of some of those stages right because if
1:40 you think about it Colberg talks about a
1:43 stage where understanding social norms
1:45 and expectations becomes really
1:47 important for moral development well
1:48 social presence is what gives us the
1:50 context for actually understanding those
1:52 things so it's like not just knowing the
1:54 rules but it's like seeing them play out
1:57 yeah exactly and seeing like the nuances
1:58 right I mean imagine if you were taking
2:01 like a college semar on ethics it's one
2:03 thing to read the theories in a textbook
2:05 right but it's a whole other thing when
2:08 you've got a group of people students
2:09 and they're debating they're
2:11 respectfully disagreeing with each other
2:12 right they're challenging each other's
2:14 views the professor is in there kind of
2:16 guiding that discussion that's high
2:18 social presence and that really pushes
2:21 you to think about the why behind
2:23 ethical behavior and ethical Norms
2:24 totally and especially when you think
2:27 about like going from that kind of like
2:30 good boy good girl stage that cber talk
2:32 about to understanding broader societal
2:34 laws and stuff I mean you need that
2:36 social back and forth absolutely do you
2:38 think you could get that just from
2:39 observing or does it need to be like an
2:42 intense social presence that is a really
2:44 interesting question and I think you're
2:45 right that observation definitely plays
2:47 a role right we walk people we learn
2:50 from that yeah but Clark's Theory would
2:52 say that the more we actually actively
2:54 participate in those social interactions
2:56 the stronger like the deeper our
2:58 understanding of those moral principles
3:00 becomes and I always think about this
3:02 with language you know you can pick up
3:03 some vocabulary just by listening to
3:06 someone talk yeah but you don't really
3:07 become fluent until you're actually
3:09 having a conversation yeah that's true
3:11 right it's that back and forth yeah
3:12 totally okay so then what about
3:15 cognitive presence okay how does that
3:17 piece that Clark talks about connect to
3:19 what Colberg was saying about moral
3:20 reasoning okay this is where things get
3:23 really cool I think because Colberg
3:24 tells us that real moral development
3:28 isn't just about feeling bad when we do
3:30 something wrong right like oh I feel
3:31 guilty right right it's about the
3:33 reasoning behind that right it's about
3:37 actually being able to analyze like why
3:40 something is wrong and cognitive
3:42 presence is all about creating an
3:44 environment that Fosters that kind of
3:47 analytical thinking so like a classroom
3:49 where you're just memorizing rules
3:52 that's probably low cognitive presence
3:54 and maybe not doing a whole lot for your
3:57 moral development right probably not I
3:59 got it but imagine instead that you're
4:01 in a philosophy class and the professor
4:04 throws out this really complex ethical
4:06 dilemma something that's like ripped
4:08 from the headlines right something
4:10 really relevant and then encourages
4:12 everyone in the class to not only form
4:15 their own opinions but to defend those
4:18 opinions using logic evidence maybe even
4:19 challenging like some long held
4:22 assumptions right that's high cognitive
4:24 presence and that's like a gym you know
4:27 for your moral reasoning skills I love
4:28 that like a gym that's a really good
4:32 analogy but makes me think too about the
4:34 different ways people learn right some
4:36 people are very analytical some are more
4:38 feeling based does Clark's Theory
4:40 account for that at all or is it
4:42 assuming that like everyone's going to
4:44 thrive in that really kind of like
4:46 intense cognitive environment that's a
4:47 great point and I think that is
4:49 something that Clark does acknowledge
4:51 right that cognitive presence isn't
4:53 about like trying to force everybody
4:56 into this like same analytical box right
4:59 it's about providing a space where
5:01 people can engage with the material in a
5:04 way that's meaningful for them that that
5:06 really gets them thinking so for some
5:07 people that might mean heated debate
5:10 right they thrive on that for others it
5:12 might be more like quiet reflection and
5:14 writing So Different Strokes for
5:17 different folks the key is that the
5:19 environment encourages that act of
5:22 wrestling with those ideas yeah okay
5:23 that makes a lot of sense okay let's go
5:25 to transactional distance which I'll be
5:27 honest when I first saw that I was like
5:30 what yeah yeah it sounds very Tech
5:32 but is it basically about how much
5:34 intellectual Freedom you have in a
5:36 learning environment you nailed it yeah
5:37 High transactional distance is like that
5:39 old school classroom you know the one
5:41 where the teachers at the front they're
5:43 dictating you're memorizing there's no
5:44 room for questioning right that's high
5:47 distance right low distance is more like
5:49 you have a mentor and that Mentor is
5:50 challenging you they're pushing you to
5:52 think for yourself to explore different
5:55 viewpoints maybe even to disagree with
5:57 them right right which looking back to
5:59 Colberg you need that to develop your
6:01 own moral compass absolutely right
6:02 you're not going to be able to develop
6:04 it if you're not allowed to you know
6:07 even Explore the terrain right but do
6:09 you think there's ever a time where that
6:11 high transactional distance could be
6:13 beneficial I'm thinking about like those
6:16 earlier Colberg stages where having very
6:20 clear rules and expectations like that's
6:21 kind of crucial that's a really great
6:23 point and I think you're right there can
6:26 be times when a more structured like a
6:27 higher distance approach is actually
6:29 appropriate especially when we're
6:30 thinking about about earlier stages of
6:32 moral development you know think about
6:35 teaching a small child about like basic
6:37 safety rules you know you need to have
6:39 those clear boundaries yeah yeah yeah
6:41 you need those expectations to establish
6:43 that Foundation right but as people
6:45 mature as they move through those stages
6:48 that distance needs to shrink right it
6:49 needs to shrink to allow for that
6:51 exploration that critical thinking that
6:54 really fuels that higher level moral
6:55 reasoning yeah oh that makes a lot of
6:57 sense this has been so insightful and it
6:59 really highlights something I think that
7:01 these theories talk about which is the
7:04 importance of discussion absolutely
7:06 right like iron sharpens iron yes when
7:08 you're bouncing ideas off other people
7:09 it makes you really look at what you
7:12 believe right yeah and not just look at
7:14 it but articulate it right you have to
7:15 put it into words you have to defend it
7:17 you might even change your mind based on
7:19 what other people are saying you know
7:21 that's where real growth happens it's
7:23 it's not when we're just in isolation
7:24 it's when we're actually having that
7:26 dialogue that back and forth people
7:28 think it's a little messy it's in that
7:31 that space that we really start to
7:32 understand ourselves and understand our
7:35 own morality so for everyone listening I
7:37 think the big takeaway here is that it's
7:40 not just about us you know in our heads
7:42 thinking about this stuff the
7:44 environment the people we're around the
7:47 ways that we're encouraged to think all
7:50 of that actually impacts how our sense
7:52 of morality grows yeah it's that Inplay
7:54 you know it's our minds and it's it's
7:56 the world around us they both shape each
7:58 other yeah I love that so I think a good
8:00 thing for everyone listening to think
8:02 about is you know where have you seen
8:03 these theories kind of play out in your
8:05 own life right think about those mentors
8:07 you've had think about different
8:09 classrooms maybe even online communities
8:11 how did those places how did those
8:13 groups of people actually change the way
8:16 you think about right and wrong it's a
8:18 good question to ponder it is yeah
8:19 awesome well thank you so much for
8:21 joining us for this deep dive thanks for
8:22 having me yeah this is great my pleasure
8:23 all right we'll catch you next time
