0:05 hi I'm Ally Jackson Jolly I'm here with
0:06 Dr Marcus Collins who's a clinical
0:09 assistant professor of marketing um at
0:11 the University of Michigan he is also
0:14 the author of for the culture the power
0:17 behind what we buy what we do and who we
0:19 want to be so welcome Marcus hi how's it
0:22 going yeah glad to talk to you we this
0:23 is the third in a series of
0:26 conversations we've been having um
0:31 around College as a investment one of
0:32 the larger Investments that people will
0:35 make in their lifetime um and how they
0:37 should be thinking about that return on
0:39 their investment um it's appropriate
0:41 because right around now if you have a
0:44 student at home a senior at home or if
0:47 you're a parent or a professor you know
0:49 that students are getting their
0:51 applications in right now and getting
0:53 ready for those decisions to come back
0:57 so consumers of higher education are
0:58 really thinking about this right now and
1:02 so I wanted to ask ask you um what do
1:06 you think are the big things that these
1:08 students should be thinking about in
1:11 terms of making sure they get the most
1:14 out of their investment if you would
1:16 have asked me this 10 years ago I think
1:19 my answer would be different but having
1:22 uh been a part of Academia for almost a
1:26 decade now and teaching U at a high
1:28 caliber uh
1:30 University my answer different so back
1:33 then I would have said oh you need to go
1:37 to a place where uh you know where your
1:39 major is really good that you can you
1:42 know learn from really good professors
1:43 and you know you can have a really great
1:45 experience and you can get a job after
1:47 the fact because people going to see
1:49 that brand on your resume and it's going
1:51 to Signal something about you and you're
1:52 going to open up more
1:56 doors I think today my thinking is a
1:58 little different because I feel like I
2:00 have always been taught or had always
2:03 been taught to think of college as a
2:06 vocation as a place where I study my
2:10 vocation right uh if I want to be a a
2:12 marketer I study marketing if I want to
2:16 be a writer I go into writing right or
2:17 creative writing where the case may be
2:20 or maybe English but what I found though
2:21 and maybe this is a bit provocative I
2:25 think that college is better seen as a
2:29 place to learn how to learn to learn how
2:32 to learn how to develop critical uh
2:35 thinking skills that enable you to be
2:38 able to put in almost any situation and
2:41 navigate it with some level of skill
2:45 some Acumen of of of knowhow because
2:47 learning how to learn is almost one of
2:49 the most critical things to have and I
2:51 realized that in my undergraduate
2:53 experience that I didn't know how to
2:57 learn so I struggled mightily through uh
2:58 my undergraduate experience in the early
3:00 years cuz I didn't know how to learn
3:03 took me a long time to be a good learner
3:05 and as a professor now but I tell my
3:07 students that the very best thing I can
3:09 give you the most important thing I can
3:12 give you is perspective a way of seeing
3:14 the world because skills are going to
3:16 come things are going to change you have
3:18 to adapt to these new things but the way
3:20 you see the world would be a way by
3:23 which it's framed so if you have the
3:25 ability to widen the aperture to keep
3:27 seeing the world in many different ways
3:29 because you know how to learn then you
3:32 can adapt to any situation and that's
3:34 really what's going to give us that's
3:36 going to be sort of the uh the best
3:39 determinant of success of the job you
3:41 want of the high salary you're going
3:43 after all these things are byproducts of
3:46 our networks of our opportunities and
3:49 our abilities to rise to the opportunity
3:51 so um that's so it is a little
3:52 provocative but I really like that
3:53 that's really an interesting way of
3:55 thinking about it but let me ask you
3:59 this because um there's all kind of parents
4:00 parents
4:03 everywhere that know that stem jobs are
4:07 the jobs so is there is it better to
4:11 learn to learn how to do stem like is
4:13 there any value in learning to learn a
4:16 specific skill that um we look at the
4:18 economy and we say okay that's where the
4:21 economy is going or do you think that
4:24 just cart blank you can learn to be a
4:28 critical thinker and and and do that in
4:31 stem or in journalism or well we say it
4:35 this way say um I want to write code
4:37 okay great I want I want to write code
4:38 so I'm going to go to school to learn
4:41 how to do that the idea then is that in
4:43 four years I still want to write code
4:45 and what I have learned will be able to
4:47 help me do that but in the world of tech
4:51 it is constantly sorry in the world of
4:53 tech it's constantly changing therefore
4:56 you have to be able to be nimble and be
4:59 able to be flexible to change right so
5:00 we' say say oh don't just take
5:03 engineering courses take some Behavioral
5:04 Science courses take some of these
5:07 courses to help round you out and that's
5:09 another you know way of euphemism of
5:11 saying to see the world in many
5:13 different ways and different lenses so
5:15 you can pull at these things so while I
5:17 say if you want to be a doctor that is a
5:18 vocation I want to be a doctor right so
5:21 I'm going to go a doctor driven track
5:23 but if you're like look I want to be in
5:26 business oh let's talk about that right
5:29 that's a this is how I want to apply my
5:31 skill the environment in which I want to
5:33 apply my skills then I'd say great now
5:35 we need to learn how to learn so you can
5:37 navigate the environment well think of
5:38 it this way for I teach at a business
5:42 school um someone says I want to go into
5:45 into operations great I want to go into
5:48 Supply Chain management I have never
5:50 received a phone call from any of my
5:53 classmates in the NBA program that said
5:55 hey was that that that law that Litt law
5:56 thing again give me that that that
5:59 calculus again no no no you know we call
6:01 our classmates asking for I have a
6:03 problem with my manager I'm having a
6:05 problem with this employee who I can't
6:08 get to do a thing my my leadership do
6:10 doesn't recognize they don't see me how
6:12 do I break through these are things that
6:14 aren't taught in a vocation they're
6:16 taught they aren't taught in school as a
6:19 vocation they're learned throughout the
6:22 way how do we learn how to learn I think
6:26 that the when I I gu sort of focus group
6:28 of one when I started to learn how to
6:31 learn the world open up for me when the
6:32 World opened up for me I start to say
6:34 ooh if I want to do that I need to learn
6:36 these skills I'm going to learn those
6:37 skills oh if I want to learn that I need
6:40 to understand this this idea this
6:42 concept this Theory so I go learn that
6:43 and the Alchemy of those things help me
6:46 be better suited to solve the thing I
6:48 believe that if I were doing that
6:50 earlier I'd probably be in better places
6:52 but I think that the notion here is that
6:55 in those early years we are learning how
6:57 to apprehend the world and make sense of
7:00 the world then we say okay I'm ready to
7:02 go do it and then the master's program
7:05 is about being an apprentice I know I
7:06 I've learned how to learn I've got some
7:08 skills I want to be a master at this
7:11 thing so I go into a master's program
7:13 right from journeyman to Apprentice to
7:16 Mastery and then I go okay now I can
7:18 apply these things in all the many
7:20 heterogeneous ways in which they come to
7:23 be but it starts with being able to see
7:25 the world in multiple ways so I that's
7:29 so I love this idea about choosing a
7:32 college or a program based on at least
7:34 from an undergrad level um being able to
7:38 learn to learn um does that make the old um
7:40 um
7:42 Stern Professor sort of a thing of the
7:44 past because if you want to learn teach
7:47 someone to learn you want to make it fun
7:48 right you want to make their your
7:50 students have fun doing it feel good
7:52 about it so in your view is there sort
7:56 of like a college professor type that is
7:59 going to be outdated well I think the
8:02 idea of Professor like I'm going to
8:03 profess things to you in a very
8:06 professorial way I think that just like
8:10 any uh media consumption habit have been
8:12 disrupted that people going to have
8:13 different expectations the same thing
8:16 goes in the classroom I I tend to get my
8:19 pedagogy from uh a gentleman named Jean
8:23 P right I'm a pan kind of guy and he
8:25 believed that people learn when they
8:28 find themselves in a state of cognitive
8:30 uh cognitive dis ibrium right that is
8:33 the world I thought I know is disrupted
8:36 now I have to allocate all my energy to
8:37 putting the world back together again
8:40 this is how I tell my students uh my my
8:42 daughter uh Georgia used to be obsessed
8:44 with cows right and we're on a road trip
8:46 and I go hey Georgia look at those cows
8:48 over there she go I don't see any cows
8:49 my wife goes the cows right there honey
8:50 what are you talking about she's like I
8:53 don't see cows well the cows we were
8:56 pointing to were Brown in Georgia's mind
8:58 cows are black and white say moo and eat
9:01 grass she was like them ain't no cows
9:02 and in that moment Georgia found herself
9:05 in a state of cogn disequilibrium and
9:07 she had two choices she could say oh
9:09 cows are black and white and brown and
9:11 now see the world differently or she
9:13 could say Mom and Dad y'all wrong that's
9:16 not a cow she would have strengthened
9:18 her current stance in the second
9:21 iteration but if she said oh these two
9:23 things exist she would have learned and
9:25 that's how I tried to teach like I think
9:27 of myself as not like a professor but as
9:29 like you're Obi-Wan Kenobi sort of
9:32 leading you through Jedi Knighthood by
9:34 providing experiences curating an
9:36 environment where you are are in
9:38 cognitive disequilibrium and I'm giving
9:40 you sort of the skills the tools the
9:42 provocations to help you put the world
9:44 back together again and I believe that
9:48 my students walk out thinking like I see
9:50 the world differently like I've learned
9:53 how to learn about the world around me
9:56 my schema has been broken and therefore
9:58 I have learned how to allocate cognitive
9:59 energy to make make sense of the world
10:01 to make meaning of the world I have
10:03 these theories I have these examples I
10:05 have these case studies to pull from to
10:07 help me make meaning of the world should
10:11 my world be disrupted again so that as a
10:14 institution we are making lifelong
10:16 Learners and when we are lifelong
10:18 Learners not only we become good
10:21 standing citizens in society we hit that
10:24 social uh aspect of things but those
10:26 people typically perform better in the
10:27 workforce they're typically more
10:29 ambitious they're typically have better
10:32 ideas they're typically more creative
10:34 typically more Innovative and therefore
10:36 all those things that we aspire to from
10:39 uh a financial Capital perspective we
10:41 are laying the groundwork the foundation
10:44 for people to get access to it h so if I
10:49 am looking to I just got my acceptances
10:51 and I want to know like which of these
10:53 universities are going to help me do
10:55 that but I I think I hear you say like
10:59 have transferable skills um and um just
11:02 be a good critical thinker and and
11:05 learner um how do I what do I look for
11:07 what are the what do you think are the
11:10 um sort of like little tipping points
11:11 that I know or the little tip offs that
11:13 I know that this University is going to
11:15 be good at that for me so my niece
11:18 Sydney right now she's a a senior in
11:19 high school and she's applying all the
11:21 things she's doing all the things right
11:22 now um and she's interested in food
11:24 science she's always been into baking
11:26 and that's kind of what she likes it
11:28 gets her gets her going and she thinks
11:29 in her mind right now that she's going
11:31 to be in that field and I go that's
11:34 great so I say Sid you should look for
11:38 schools where they do that well right
11:40 but pick the schools where you feel like
11:43 you're going to be able to learn best
11:45 that is the environment is curated so
11:48 that you can become a good learner and
11:49 you choose this major because you're
11:51 excited about it the idea of choosing
11:53 Majors you're excited about is that when
11:55 it gets hard because it's going to get
11:57 hard you can at least say I at least
11:59 like the subject matter and you know I
12:00 didn't learn that until I was in my
12:03 doctoral program they tell you Hey
12:04 listen whatever you're going to do as
12:06 your dissertation you better be really
12:07 interested in it because it's going to
12:09 get really sucky at some point it's
12:10 going to get really dark it's going be
12:12 really heavy and you're going to want to
12:15 quit but your your affinity for the
12:17 subject matter your affinity for the
12:19 topic that's going to keep pushing you
12:21 that's going to keep moving you forward
12:23 so you're learning about this thing that
12:25 you're interested in while you're
12:28 learning how to learn and in in in an
12:30 undergrad experience and this why I tell
12:32 Sid that like Sydney like you want to do
12:34 food science that's great go to the
12:35 schools and do that well but even if
12:36 they don't do that you can have a
12:38 proximal thing like chemistry for
12:40 instance right so like you are adjacent
12:42 to the thing that you want so you still
12:44 have some interest in it but you go to
12:46 the schools you go to the places where
12:47 you feel like the environment is curated
12:49 to help you learn but also you're
12:50 learning with the people that you think
12:53 you're going to learn best from and that
12:56 hopefully they'll open up some Financial
12:59 capital for you along the way yeah I
13:01 love it um thank you I actually have a
13:03 senior myself getting ready to go to
13:05 college so I will take some of this
13:08 advice home with me um but we're out of
13:11 time thank you so much for um being here
13:14 making us all a little bit smarter about
13:16 um how we can invest in our higher
13:18 education in a way that we will will
13:21 serve us well and return our investment
