0:02 Welcome, welcome. Really excited for
0:07 this event. Um, I'm joined by a dear
0:11 friend and a badass and Gianna. I'm
0:12 super excited to get into the
0:15 conversation today. Um, we got lots of
0:16 people coming in, but we're going to get
0:21 started. Um and uh really the focus of
0:24 the uh the conversation today is um
0:27 talking more about um the brand demand
0:30 expand approach that I'm sure you've
0:32 been seeing all of Refined Labs talking
0:34 about this year. Um you know, and we're
0:36 not claiming we made it up. This is just
0:38 going back to like key marketing
0:40 fundamentals that are timeless and that
0:42 always work and especially as we're all
0:46 trying to do our best to uh kind of uh
0:49 manage through the AI era um some of
0:51 these timeless marketing principles um
0:53 are really where we should all be
0:55 thinking about in order to to drive
0:56 sustainable growth for our companies.
0:59 And so excited to talk through this
1:00 today. you you probably know from our
1:04 Refined Labs events and content, we are
1:06 heavily focused on talking about all
1:07 things demand and we've really been
1:11 leaning into more um uh content and um
1:15 events focused around brand strategy and
1:16 brand measurement. And I'm really
1:19 excited today because Gianna is really a
1:22 customer marketing expansion advocacy
1:25 expert. And so we're going to really um
1:27 talk a lot about that expand pillar and
1:29 how customer marketing and customer
1:33 advocacy is a is fuel for for your brand
1:35 and for actually closing deals and
1:37 getting deals over the finish line. And
1:40 so um we're going to get into it. So
1:43 Gianna, welcome. I've known you for
1:44 years. I'm so glad we're doing an event
1:46 together, but would love to kick it over
1:48 to you to just introduce yourself and
1:50 your your uh and champion.
1:52 >> Oh, thanks so much, Megan. Hey,
1:54 everyone. I'm Ganna. Everyone calls me
1:57 G, so feel like I have to say the same.
2:00 Feel free to call me G. Um I I met Megan
2:03 years ago back when I was a GM at
2:05 Airall. She graciously gave me some of
2:08 her time as I was uh really exploring
2:10 how to grow the customer success, right?
2:13 So talk about expand uh function of our
2:15 business and you know my lens has always
2:19 been looking at uh SDR BDR all the way
2:20 through customer success. So that full
2:23 go to market engine. Um prior to air
2:24 call I had been at a company called Blue
2:27 Wolf and Mondo where I helped scale it
2:29 um as part of and running the RevOps
2:31 team. And so that's really the lens in
2:33 which I view things. But today I'm I'm
2:35 coming to you as a co-founder of
2:37 Champion. Um we're a customer marketing
2:40 platform where we help our enterprise
2:42 customers grow through their customer
2:44 base. So really thinking about how do
2:47 you use your customers as a channel? uh
2:50 and this has been a lot of fun because I
2:53 bring a lot of the fundamentals uh that
2:56 uh I've experienced through building um
2:58 go to market engines and and now this is
3:00 really that that layer in that piece
3:02 where you could add in advocacy all
3:04 across that customer journey as you know
3:06 every organization is really trying to
3:09 find that path to efficiency and and
3:11 profitability and I think customers are
3:14 the key to it but that's no secret.
3:16 >> Awesome. Yes. And for those of you that
3:18 know my background, I kind of grew up in
3:21 the world of customer success. And so,
3:23 um, I love when customer success and
3:25 marketing can collide. And I think more
3:28 than ever, it's, um, such a powerful
3:31 growth lever that honestly, I think most businesses,
3:32 businesses,
3:36 um, haven't really prioritized to date.
3:39 And so the good thing about that is it's
3:43 a real tangible opportunity um to think
3:46 about how you're leveraging your
3:48 customers as part of your growth engine.
3:50 Um and this is of course you know in
3:52 addition to delivering for your
3:55 customers and you know meeting your
3:57 brand promise and driving results for
4:00 them. That's table stakes of course. Um,
4:02 but there are all of these uh
4:05 considerations for uh how you can use
4:08 your customers to fuel new business
4:11 growth and also expansion within your
4:14 current customer base as well. And so um
4:16 we're let's jump in. We'll kind of
4:20 tackle each pillar and uh we'll start
4:22 with brand. We we'll just jump right in.
4:25 And so, you know, we've been talking a
4:27 lot more about this. Our, you know, our
4:30 roots at Refine Labs have um, you know,
4:32 were originally really rooted in demand
4:35 genen and that is was our real core
4:37 competency and what we had focused on.
4:41 And what we're finding is that if you
4:43 have too much tunnel vision on a
4:47 demandonly strategy that you will hit a
4:49 growth plateau that you will start to
4:52 see diminishing returns and that the two
4:53 additional pillars that are really
4:56 required um to continue to grow a
4:59 business is is brand and expand. And so
5:02 from a brand perspective, um, obviously
5:04 there's things that you can do, you
5:05 know, from a paid advertising
5:07 perspective to build brand awareness,
5:09 but there's so many other programs that
5:11 you need to be thinking about and
5:14 implementing for a true holistic brand
5:18 strategy. And, you know, we we all know
5:20 the stats, right? Like we all know that
5:23 most B2B buyers have essentially a day
5:25 one consideration set when they're
5:28 starting a buying process. they already
5:30 know a set of brands that they're
5:33 probably going to buy from and if you're
5:34 not on that day one consideration set
5:37 list, it's very likely you're not going
5:40 to, you know, win the deal. And so, uh,
5:42 it's a missed opportunity for a lot of
5:45 folks that are, um, too focused on
5:47 performance marketing or demand genen at
5:50 the expense of a more holistic strategy.
5:53 Um, and we just know that, you know, I
5:56 think it's like 90% of purchases will be
5:58 from that day one list. So, of course,
6:00 there are ways to get in and people
6:02 might find you via search or other
6:05 means. Um, but prioritizing this is
6:07 really, really key. Um,
6:09 >> it's a short list these days too from
6:11 what I read and I can't remember the
6:13 exact study but I think it was something
6:16 like uh today's consumer is looking at
6:18 two to three products as opposed to
6:20 traditionally that five to six. So it's
6:22 also a short list that you need to get
6:24 into. So it's a double whammy there.
6:27 >> Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we've
6:29 had a lot of really great sessions
6:31 recently with Matt Chanella and Dale
6:35 Harrison. And it's fascinating when you
6:38 really dive deep into brand how people
6:41 believe that one program or one
6:44 activation is enough and that the like
6:48 the memory decay of one particular brand
6:52 program is so rapid that this always on
6:56 brand motion is really required. And so
6:58 um you know from my perspective when you
7:01 think about a brand strategy priority
7:05 number one is your unique point of view
7:07 and your strategic narrative. You know
7:11 what are what is your story right? What
7:13 story are you telling to the market that
7:17 is going to make them understand the
7:20 problem that you solve your solution and
7:22 have a recall of and you know sort of
7:25 association of your brand with that
7:28 problem and solution. Um getting that
7:32 story right making it compelling is much
7:34 harder than I think people give it
7:38 credit for. And so that is a key input
7:40 in order for any brand program to be
7:42 successful. Um
7:44 >> yeah, you know, it's interesting having,
7:46 you know, we're two years into Champion
7:49 now and well about two and a half and
7:51 you know, I'd always been at a scale up,
7:52 right? And so it was so interesting to
7:54 build from the ground up and really to
7:56 build that brand from its infancy and
7:59 thankfully uh my co-founder Jeff Rickers
8:01 is a brilliant marketer and so he really
8:03 took the reigns here. Uh but it was
8:05 really fascinating to watch how
8:09 important it was to survey, right? Speak
8:11 to thousands of customer marketers. Of
8:12 course, that was the space that we were
8:15 selling into to help us understand what
8:18 those problems were to use their words
8:20 within our branding, within our
8:22 messaging, that narrative that you speak
8:25 of so that we really could show and
8:28 explicitly be aligned to right those
8:30 problems that we were solving as we're
8:32 creating a little bit of a new space.
8:33 There are a lot of players in customer
8:37 marketing but um it's still not a major
8:40 strategic program in the eyes of the
8:42 seauite and that's where Jeff and I are
8:44 really trying to change that narrative
8:46 alongside our customers to say look at
8:49 how much impact you can make and do make
8:51 as a customer marketer and that's really
8:54 that narrative Megan that you eloquently
8:57 said is so hard to do sometimes right to
9:00 to to really create that wave. Yeah,
9:02 absolutely. I'd love to dig into this
9:05 more. Um, in terms of from your
9:08 perspective, what are some of the brand
9:11 programs that you have activated to get
9:13 your story out into the market? What's
9:15 been successful for you guys so far to date?
9:16 date?
9:18 >> Yeah, so um, definitely, you know,
9:20 social obviously, you know, having a
9:21 presence on social and really being
9:25 thoughtful about the content. Um, but we
9:28 wholeheartedly believe that business is
9:30 human and we are trying to make the
9:32 buying cycle human again. And to do
9:34 that, that means that we're sharing
9:37 human stories, human struggle, human
9:39 successes. And so, we're really bringing
9:41 our customers to the forefront of this
9:43 story. So, whether that's them helping
9:47 us really create um the narrative and
9:49 understand the pain points, it's also
9:51 really amplifying their voice and what
9:54 they've done. So one social and util
9:56 utilizing our customers actual voice
10:00 stories etc for that win. Um but then it
10:05 was it's also um creating events. So we
10:07 did a whole series of events. So we
10:09 partnered with another company doing
10:11 roundts and giving again the platform
10:13 for our prospects, our customers, our
10:18 main ICP to really create a beautiful
10:21 environment so that they can share what
10:23 they're going through. So we're just
10:25 like the platform, right? The the medium
10:27 for them to get together, but that in
10:29 turn builds a brand to show that we are
10:31 invested in them. And that's part of our
10:33 core value is really showing this
10:36 community that we're a part of wanting
10:39 to help them rise um and getting more
10:41 seuite visibility. And to do that, it's
10:42 about elevating each other. Now that
10:45 we're kind of past the COVID era um I
10:47 think we're all noticing and seeing
10:49 either as you know observers or
10:52 participants or hosts in-person events
10:56 are so powerful. Small dinners um are
10:58 are great ways to engage with your
11:01 audience. Um, and community and and
11:03 community can mean a lot of different
11:04 things, right? It doesn't always
11:06 necessarily need to be a Slack
11:08 community, but that can absolutely help.
11:10 It's like how are you bringing, you
11:13 know, your uh your perspective customers
11:16 and your customers together so that they
11:19 can share and learn. Um, Donna, I love
11:23 your question in the chat around um
11:25 customer interviewing. And when Gianna
11:28 gets back on, uh, we'll definitely get
11:31 her her take on this. I think one thing
11:33 that we've been testing out at Refine
11:35 Labs in relation to customer
11:38 interviewing is we've been um we've been
11:40 leveraging the winter software platform
11:42 for some really interesting brand
11:44 sentiment surveys as well as buyer
11:47 research. And we have been finding that
11:50 actually having some customer um
11:53 interviews that are really focused on
11:57 the buying process specifically has been
11:59 really eyeopening about what they
12:02 actually care about um and kind of
12:05 piecing together like the murky customer
12:06 journey that we know people kind of go
12:10 through today. And so I'll be really um
12:12 interested in uh hearing GO's
12:15 perspective on on what they did for for
12:17 their customers. Don, I'm seeing your response.
12:20 response. Um
12:21 Um
12:23 yeah, and I think what we have noticed
12:25 is we have been leveraging both
12:29 technology for some kind of surveying a
12:33 as well as getting in front of actual
12:34 people. And I hear you, Donna. It's
12:36 expensive from, you know, both a time
12:39 and resource perspective, but the
12:41 insights um are so valuable. And the
12:43 reality is, you know, we've been doing
12:47 these in, you know, cohorts of 10 or 15.
12:49 You don't necessarily need hundreds or
12:53 thousands to get really valuable and
12:56 interesting insights. And um Donna was
12:58 actually really interested to hear more
13:00 about how you did the customer
13:03 interviewing that you mentioned for um
13:05 you know big groups of people and she
13:07 she's interested to hear a little bit
13:08 more uh about that. I was sharing a
13:10 little bit about some of the buyer
13:12 committee research projects we've been
13:14 running at Refine Labs but those are on
13:17 a very small scale very focused on how
13:19 people buy but share your experience uh
13:21 with what you've done with customer surveys.
13:22 surveys.
13:25 >> Absolutely. Um, so we actually, um, did
13:28 these live, uh, or one-on-one via Zoom.
13:31 Um, and so, well, I should say that
13:32 there were different parts of it. Um,
13:34 how we really got started was booking
13:36 time and and asking, uh, for people's
13:38 time. So, whether it's your customer
13:40 base that you're doing this with or, uh,
13:42 as we were entering the market building
13:44 a product, it was really, you know, no
13:46 lies about, you know, what the intent
13:48 was, which was really asking for
13:50 people's time to help us. And I think
13:51 that that's really important to
13:55 explicitly um share um and that you're
13:57 not trying to sell them um but you are
13:59 asking for their time. And so you know
14:01 we did one-on-one meetings with people
14:03 30 minute time slots if if they could a
14:05 lot 30 minutes with you know just very
14:07 specific questions to learn about their
14:09 pain points. So, you know, if you are exploring
14:11 exploring
14:14 um wanting to solicit feedback from
14:17 others, I would say, you know, really
14:19 understand what it is you are trying to
14:21 gather and create a framework that you
14:23 could use and replicate with many. And
14:25 so, we did that for one-on-one
14:27 conversations. We also threw some
14:29 events. So we did some like happy hour
14:31 style events where we gave a very brief
14:34 presentation to tease an idea and then
14:37 within that idea we were then able to
14:39 walk around the room, solicit feedback,
14:41 book some follow-ups that way, which was
14:42 a great way to go deeper into a
14:44 conversation. From a survey perspective,
14:46 there are great tools out there that you
14:49 can use um to again, you know,
14:51 formulate, you know, some bigger, you
14:54 know, um responses from from a larger
14:56 sample size. Uh and so again I think it
14:58 always boils down to really thinking
15:00 about what outcome you are looking for,
15:02 what type of information you are looking
15:04 for and then create your framework of
15:06 questions from there where you could
15:08 really extract thematically
15:11 um you know the the different responses
15:14 uh to drive change.
15:16 >> Yeah, awesome answer. I love it. I love
15:19 it. Um I mean we could go on and on and
15:20 on about brand, but let's move on to the
15:23 next pillar and dive a little bit into
15:25 the demand pillar. I'll speak to this a
15:27 little and then we'll we'll love to get
15:30 your take Giana especially from you know
15:31 customer marketing and a customer
15:33 advocacy perspective. I think this is
15:35 another area that I think can be so
15:38 underutilized or underleveraged. Um and
15:40 so you know when we think about the
15:43 brand demand expand pillar um the goal
15:47 of brand is really um being on that day
15:49 one consideration set like that's really
15:51 the goal that you're after. From a
15:55 demand perspective, we uh are looking at
15:58 that in how do we convert interest and
16:01 attention into sales conversations and
16:04 pipeline. And this is where you get a
16:06 lot of what I would say is probably, you
16:09 know, the the stuff that's become really
16:11 the go-to in terms of growth strategies
16:13 over the last five years is how are we
16:16 thinking about performance marketing?
16:17 How are we thinking about our website?
16:19 How are we thinking about uh people
16:21 converting off the website? How are we
16:24 educating and activating our buyers? Um
16:25 how do we make sure if they're searching
16:28 for us somewhere that we are coming up
16:30 in that search so that we can be part of
16:33 the process? How are we making that
16:37 experience as frictionless as possible?
16:39 Um, and what I like to say is usually
16:41 from a when you're looking at all of
16:45 these pillars, the demand pillar is
16:47 probably the easiest thing to spend the
16:49 most money on. And so I think you have
16:52 people um honestly overinvesting in this
16:56 pillar because it feels coin operated.
16:57 I'm going to put some money in. I'm
16:59 going to get some customers out. It's
17:03 easier to defend with your CFO. Um, it's
17:05 easier, you know, in some ways to
17:08 measure success and to track. We're not
17:09 going to get into an attribution
17:13 conversation today. Um, but the the the
17:15 key here is this is a critical pillar,
17:17 right? Like this is how you drive short
17:20 and medium-term results for your
17:22 business and it's critically important,
17:25 but should not be over prioritized
17:27 relative to the other pillars if you're
17:30 really looking to build a sustainable
17:32 growth engine. Um, something I'm really
17:34 interested in from your perspective, G,
17:36 is um, and things that I wasn't
17:39 necessarily automatically connecting to
17:41 customer marketing, but you know, you
17:43 guys talk a lot about how you can, um,
17:45 facilitate, you know, references or
17:47 referrals, and so would love to you to
17:51 to expand on your perspective there
17:53 because I do think that is again like
17:55 something that's underutilized, which
17:58 um, you know, for all of us could be an
17:59 opportunity that we haven't capitalized
18:02 on yet. Yeah, for sure. I think you
18:04 nailed it, right? What what is not
18:06 mentioned often in demand is how do you
18:08 use your customers to facilitate growth
18:10 within this segment? How do you
18:12 facilitate customers to increase your
18:15 win rates, decrease time to close,
18:17 right? Um, references is a great way to
18:19 do that. So, something that we're doing
18:21 at Champion is thinking about how do we
18:24 use AI to pair your best prospect,
18:27 right, with your best customer. Uh, it's
18:29 smart matching. And why I bring this up
18:31 is not just to say hey look how awesome
18:33 we are at Champion because we are but
18:35 it's to say how are you thinking about
18:38 what that pairing looks like because um
18:41 not any customer looks exactly the same
18:44 and so you want to have as
18:46 contextualized as a conversation as
18:48 possible. You really want going back to
18:51 the pain, right? Understanding what that
18:54 prospect, why haven't they said yes yet,
18:55 right? Understanding what their
18:57 objection is and then finding that
19:00 customer that had that same problem they
19:02 worked through. That's going to be the
19:04 best conversation. So, utilizing AI to
19:06 be able to pair that is what will
19:10 actually tick the needle into um ticking
19:12 that needle for revenue, right? And then
19:14 it also facilitates sales having more
19:16 time to focus on all of the other
19:18 things. So it can expedite the sales
19:21 process as well. Also, what we don't
19:24 think about with references is the
19:26 psychological benefit that it gives to
19:30 the customer. They get to share how much
19:32 they love you. Think about when you do
19:34 that when you're just talking about a
19:36 restaurant that you went to or that new
19:38 product you just tried. It brings joy
19:42 and so it it evokes that emotion again.
19:45 So, in a way, a customer serving as a
19:48 reference also helps with expand because
19:50 they're reminded of how much benefit and
19:52 value they've gotten from you because
19:54 they get to talk about it time and time
19:55 again. Hopefully, you're not overusing
19:56 and abusing them though on the reference
19:59 side. Um, you also asked Megan about
20:02 referrals. Um, this again is a really
20:04 great way to utilize your customer base.
20:06 I actually put this in place back when I
20:10 ran revops for a tech services company
20:13 and tech services um we grew it from 5
20:15 million to 100 million when we had our
20:18 exit and you know you you think about
20:20 what tech services is great at it is
20:21 network and relationship driven sales
20:23 right it's all about growing through the
20:24 customer base and that was something
20:27 that I was really surprised when I moved
20:30 over to product side that it's not as
20:33 mature right of really understanding how
20:35 customers how to utilize their network
20:37 and this is where I believe that
20:39 referral play comes in. So when I was at
20:41 this tech services company we realized
20:44 we were amazing hunters. We had grown to
20:46 about 30 million and then kind of were
20:47 lulled there and we realized we needed
20:51 to like crack the code on expansion,
20:53 crack the code on going wide as we
20:55 called it. And so what we did was we
20:58 trained every sales rep to just ask
21:00 their customers, hey would anyone else
21:03 in your network benefit from our
21:05 services? could you introduce me? And
21:07 that was incredibly powerful for sales
21:10 reps to really start the engine on a
21:12 referral introduction basis. And so now
21:13 think about taking that back on the
21:15 product side. That really is a form of
21:18 advocacy. Where along that customer
21:21 journey is it applicable and the right
21:25 time to ask your um buyer, your customer
21:27 for that referral. I did that at
21:30 Champion. I just closed a deal. Um she's
21:32 awesome. Saddaf, thank you. And I asked
21:34 her, "Hey, would anyone else like, you
21:35 know, benefit? You're out there. You're
21:38 in the community." And she introduced me
21:41 to um one of the my most favorite
21:43 clients right now, two-year contract,
21:45 closed it within like a three-month time
21:47 frame. Um one of the most recognizable
21:49 brands that my mother actually knows.
21:51 So, um really exciting that, you know,
21:54 when you ask in that right moment, um
21:56 you know, it it varies. You could I
21:57 asked them right at close and it was a
21:59 great time to do it. So just think about
22:01 that breath of network that you could
22:03 create there. Um lastly, what I'll say
22:06 is it also gives an opportunity for your
22:09 customers to build their brand as well.
22:12 Um it shows their network that they are
22:15 thought leaders and that um they have
22:17 suggestions and and value to bring
22:20 outside of um you know just what they're
22:22 doing within their organization as well.
22:24 >> Yeah, absolutely. I think one of my
22:27 biggest takeaways is, you know, even
22:29 myself, if I'm being honest, in terms of
22:32 references or referrals, I would say um
22:34 it's definitely more of a reactive
22:37 motion versus a proactive motion. I'm in
22:39 a sales process, someone asks asks for a
22:40 reference, and then I'm kind of
22:42 scrambling to like find the right
22:44 customer to connect them with. Um
22:47 referrals happen, you know, randomly and
22:49 spontaneously, but I don't necessarily
22:51 have an intentional strategy behind
22:53 that. And so, um, I think a huge
22:55 takeaway from everything that you just
22:57 covered is if you actually have an
23:00 intentional, proactive strategy for
23:03 references and referrals, it is a
23:06 massive unlock in terms of not only
23:08 potential new business growth, but also
23:10 customer happiness, retention, and
23:12 expansion of those customers as well.
23:15 So, I love that. I love that.
23:17 >> One other um motion that we didn't talk
23:19 about are job changes, right? like that
23:22 full flywheel of your customers. So,
23:24 thinking about you've got a customer who
23:28 has moved on to um another organization,
23:29 are you following them there? Because
23:32 that's a great way to generate warm leads
23:34 leads
23:36 >> 100%. And again, it's like you sort of
23:38 have a pulse on that or you hope that
23:40 they call you when they're in seat at
23:42 their new company, but having that
23:45 intentional strategy is is key to to to
23:47 be successful there.
23:49 >> Um we have another question in the chat.
23:51 So before we segue into the expand
23:54 pillar, um, and Duke, I see I see you
23:56 are your video is on. Can let's bring
23:57 you on. Steph, I don't know if you can
23:59 unmute. Duke, why don't you ask your
24:01 question live and we can chat about it.
24:05 >> Sounds good. Thank you. So I posted the
24:06 question of what's the right way to
24:08 measure and track how strong your brand
24:10 is knowing that it's the foundational
24:12 point of demand and expand. I then went
24:14 through and read some of the blog posts
24:17 Evan had sent over and what I took from
24:20 especially the brand one is it seems
24:22 like to me is a unique point of view and
24:24 then content. Are those the two most
24:26 important components from your
24:29 perspective? Um yeah and I think uh I I
24:31 noticed your question was very specific
24:34 around measurement and sort of tracking
24:36 and so I think from a brand program
24:39 perspective I think a core input is like
24:42 a clear ICP definition and a strong
24:45 strategic narrative or POV and then you
24:47 need to activate those right and so you
24:49 can activate that through content
24:51 through organic social thought
24:53 leadership through events through
24:55 community and those are probably the big
24:57 pillars in which you want to get in
24:59 front of your audience and find
25:01 different ways to communicate your
25:04 narrative in those programs in order to
25:06 build your brand, right? And build that
25:09 that recall um being, you know, being
25:12 part of that day one consideration set
25:15 from a measurement standpoint. Um we've
25:18 been looking at a few things um for
25:20 brand specifically. And so a really interesting
25:22 interesting
25:25 um uh metric to look at is share of
25:29 search. Um now looking at this requires
25:32 that you look at it over a pretty you
25:35 know long long span of time. And what
25:38 you want to actually start to measure is
25:40 what is the baseline of our current
25:42 share of search. So thinking through
25:44 this is you're going to have a set of
25:46 competitors in your market and people
25:49 are going to go to Google and we'll will
25:51 search specific brands. And so when you
25:54 actually aggregate all of the players in
25:57 your space, what percentage of that
26:00 >> sort of branded search is your company
26:02 getting relative to your competitors?
26:04 And so there's a way for you to get kind
26:07 of like a baseline. um often there's
26:10 pretty high correlation of share of
26:13 search to um to market share overall,
26:15 right? There are other factors that go
26:16 into market share, but there's some
26:19 interesting correlations there. Once you
26:21 have your baseline and understand how
26:22 you're performing relative to your
26:25 competitors, then that's when you can
26:27 begin to implement more focused brand
26:30 programs and then measure the change of
26:32 your share of search over time. I
26:33 typically would recommend looking at
26:36 this quarterly but really anchoring on
26:39 every six months to understand um how
26:42 you've improved that overall metric. And
26:45 I mean really what that is saying is are
26:47 the percentage of people that know your
26:50 brand and putting your brand into Google
26:53 increasing over time? And if so, you can
26:56 argue that your brand programs are being
26:58 successful. Now within each of the
26:59 programs there are obviously different
27:02 ways you can measure you know the
27:04 success of events and and your content
27:06 strategy etc. But I would think at at a
27:09 high level that that's critical and then
27:11 taking a step back you could argue that
27:14 your brand marketing has an entire halo
27:17 effect over the whole business. Mhm.
27:20 >> So, businesses that are growing at a
27:22 healthy clip year-over-year, that have,
27:26 you know, healthy margins, um, are are
27:28 always definitely running brand programs
27:31 and and you can argue that overall
27:34 business growth is a function of
27:36 effective brand. Obviously, sales is an
27:38 input. Obviously, you know, every team
27:41 has their role in that. Um, but that's
27:44 how I would think about measuring brand.
27:46 very distinct from if you're looking at,
27:48 you know, demand genen programs in terms
27:50 of paid, then you can get much more
27:52 granular at the program level of how
27:54 you're measuring success. But you need
27:56 to have a longer term mindset. I think
27:58 the other the last thing that I'll say
28:02 is um we've been testing um some of the
28:05 brand sentiment surveys via winter and
28:07 that's really interesting to get kind of
28:11 primary research on um essentially if
28:13 you are in the day one consideration set
28:16 with your target ICP and then running
28:19 those surveys every 6 to 12 months to
28:22 see if you are noticing an improvement
28:23 there as well. So that's another
28:25 concrete measurement that you can be
28:28 thinking about um uh from that
28:30 measurement perspective. So I kind of I
28:32 gave you a lot there. Any any feedback
28:34 or follow-up questions?
28:36 >> No, that all makes sense. Um and again,
28:37 I'm just going back to some of the
28:38 previous events your team's done with
28:41 Dale Harrison of again just talking
28:43 about okay companies trying to invest so
28:45 much more in the demand when they
28:47 haven't even done enough on the brand to
28:49 truly capitalize on both of that. So
28:51 that's why I'm wanting to just make sure
28:53 I'm starting from the perspective of
28:55 understanding that the brand needs to be
28:57 something that sets the tone for
28:58 everything else after.
29:00 >> Exactly. And that's why we've been
29:02 really championing this um you know kind
29:06 of brand demand expand framework because
29:08 you really need all three
29:10 >> and you need to be thinking about all
29:12 three within the context of building a
29:15 growth system and kind of get out of the
29:17 weeds of executing programs or
29:20 campaigns. And that's I think really the
29:22 difference between great companies that
29:24 are growing and profitable and the ones
29:26 that are not. >> Great.
29:27 >> Great. >> Um,
29:27 >> Um,
29:28 >> thank you.
29:30 >> Yeah, thanks for coming on, Duke. I
29:32 appreciate it.
29:35 Um, all right. So, we've talked about
29:36 brand and demand. I love the questions.
29:40 Keep them coming. Um, let's uh let's
29:42 touch a little bit more on the expand
29:44 pillar. We've been talking about a
29:46 little bit of that throughout, but I
29:49 think there's um there's several aspects
29:52 to this. And I think, you know, from
29:54 from a practical like digital marketing
29:58 perspective, there's also um some kind
30:00 of lowhanging fruit in my opinion in
30:03 terms of what we can be thinking about
30:05 in terms of bolstering our demand
30:07 strategies. And so, you know, these are
30:08 things that we've been doing for a long
30:10 time, but how are you putting out
30:12 customer case studies and social proof
30:14 and testimonials,
30:16 um, you know, as part of your paid
30:19 advertising mix? Um especially for
30:22 companies uh that you know are 500
30:24 million to a billion in revenue that
30:26 have tens and thousands um or hundreds
30:28 of thousands of customers, there are
30:30 meaningful ways for you to actually
30:32 market to your current customer base
30:35 because typically at that scale you have
30:37 multiple products and services that they
30:39 can take advantage of where most
30:41 customers are only using one or two of
30:44 them. And so there are some um you know
30:46 kind of table stakes programs that a lot
30:49 of people don't consider when they're
30:51 defining their demand or their paid
30:54 strategy um that can be really impactful
30:57 to integrate um both in directly
30:59 marketing to your customers but also
31:01 taking you know customer wins and case
31:03 studies and marketing them to
31:05 prospective customers as well. Um
31:07 there's so much more though when we
31:08 think about the expand pillar. What this
31:11 is really intended to represent is
31:14 retaining your customers, expanding your
31:17 customers, renewing your customers,
31:19 turning your customers into evangelists
31:22 and advocates. That's how businesses
31:25 will really continue to grow and scale.
31:29 And that that needs to be part of your
31:31 go-to market strategy. this these are
31:33 not things that are only relegated to
31:35 the customer success or customer support
31:38 team that it's actually a growth motion
31:40 and I think a lot of people don't view
31:43 it in that way so it doesn't get the
31:46 relative investment or priority that it
31:48 should and I think it's just because
31:50 people are not necessarily connecting
31:52 the dots of the impact that it could
31:54 have and I know you have probably like a
31:56 million things to say about this G so
31:57 I'll pass it over to you
31:59 >> yeah I think you know like theoretically
32:01 speaking I think where a lot companies
32:03 get it wrong as they mistake. Is the
32:05 customer happy versus is the customer
32:08 succeeding? And this is where I think
32:11 the focus really needs to land. Is the,
32:14 you know, is the customer succeeding on
32:17 your platform? Are they getting the
32:20 value right, the perceived value? And
32:22 it's constantly readressing this
32:24 endpoint. So it's thinking about arming
32:26 your you know customer success reps
32:29 making sure that you know they do a
32:32 business alignment understand what that
32:35 you know end result should be for that
32:37 client and it's constantly evolving and
32:39 so it really is a strategic partner in
32:41 ensuring that you're aligned with you
32:43 know the outcome that they're looking
32:47 for. Um there are so many different um
32:48 things that I want to say here that you
32:50 mentioned you know from um I'll share an
32:52 example um something that that is a
32:54 little off cuff that you wouldn't think
32:56 about. We talked about um references
32:58 right in that in that you know um kind
33:00 of demand portion of helping to convert
33:03 pipeline to one deals. Think about doing
33:04 the same for your customers. Megan, you
33:07 talked about expanding expanding
33:09 multi-product, right? Why not pair a
33:11 customer with a customer, right? And
33:14 really facilitate that growth pattern
33:17 that you can create and recognizing how
33:19 some of your strongest multi-product
33:22 customers got to that evolution, right?
33:24 And create that journey for your other
33:26 customers. So, um, one is just that
33:29 thematic identification, um, of that
33:31 customer journey and then pairing them
33:32 with the right customer at the right
33:36 time for that conversation.
33:40 Yeah, I love that. And I think, um, I'd
33:42 love to I feel like we've touched on
33:45 this throughout, but I know that um,
33:49 advocacy is something that you you talk
33:50 about a lot. I was going to say
33:56 Talk about getting a great brand name, right?
33:56 right?
33:58 >> I know. Exactly. Very fitting. Very
34:02 fitting. Um but uh I think the I think
34:04 uh I'd love for you to speak more about
34:07 that because I think um there's you know
34:09 and I think right now there's a kind of
34:12 a trend in B2B marketing around you know
34:16 influencers and how they can be um you
34:18 know essentially marketing your product
34:20 or influencing purchase decisions. But I
34:24 think an advocate is very distinct from
34:27 an influencer and maybe you know maybe
34:29 there's some overlap there of course in
34:31 some instances but how would you define
34:33 that and how you know how would you
34:36 describe the importance of that overall?
34:38 Yeah, I mean agreed in that like a word
34:39 is just a word and it's really how we
34:41 define it and and really what the
34:42 meaning that we want to extract from it,
34:45 the purpose, right? Um I think B TOC has
34:47 done an amazing job of of having
34:50 influencers and really from utilizing
34:52 that growth pattern and B2B is starting
34:53 to adopt that same principle and
34:56 practice in addition to right your loyal
34:58 advocates. When I think about the
35:00 difference between an influencer verse
35:05 an advocate, um an influencer is has a
35:07 brand, right? Their own brand and it's
35:09 utilizing their voice and their platform
35:11 to say, "Hey, I love this thing." I
35:14 think that hopefully it's done in a way
35:16 where um they really do love your
35:18 product, right? But
35:19 >> authentic and genuine.
35:21 >> Exactly. However, I think we've all seen
35:23 it. We all get that little cringe in
35:26 that like is it right? verse an
35:29 advocate. Um, an advocate is your
35:31 customer base that is deriving extreme
35:34 value from your product. They
35:36 intrinsically want to help you. So, if
35:39 you think about an influencer, you more
35:41 than likely will have to pay. It is a
35:45 one to many verse creating a many to
35:48 one. Create many advocates who are going
35:50 to have onetoone very meaningful
35:52 conversations over and over and over and
35:55 over again. And this is what will really
35:58 help you create um a flywheel effect of
36:00 your customers really being that word of
36:02 mouth for you, building your brand,
36:04 helping you drive demand, and then also
36:06 expanding. Now, I know that we're in the
36:08 expand section, but you can't talk about
36:09 advocacy without talking about the
36:11 influence across all three of these
36:14 pillars. Um you know, and you know,
36:16 really kind of diving into, you know,
36:19 the expand portion of it. Um, when you
36:22 build advocates, again, it's really
36:24 driving this extreme value. And so then
36:27 it's thinking about how do you partner
36:29 with them to better understand the
36:31 business needs, those growth potentials,
36:33 the expansion potential. And that's
36:35 really when you could go from a one-year
36:37 contract to a three-year contract or
36:39 start to push those boundaries, having
36:40 more and more transparent conversations.
36:42 So I think you could think of your
36:44 advocates as your partners in your
36:46 growth strategy within that core
36:48 account. thinking about it from
36:50 multi-product to then also thinking
36:54 about just a better contract um adding
36:56 in case studies utilizing you know their
36:59 their story right to then help you in
37:01 the other pillars as well.
37:06 >> Yeah 100% well said. Um so I think one
37:08 interesting topic related to all these
37:10 three pillars that I wanted to touch on
37:11 and then we'll open it up for some more Q&A
37:13 Q&A
37:16 um is budgeting and budget allocation.
37:18 So, we're in we're in budgeting season
37:20 right now. Everybody is putting together
37:24 2026 plans and 2026 budgets. I think the typical
37:26 typical
37:28 um you know the typical themes that we
37:30 see as we're working with customers and
37:32 we're um understanding how they're
37:34 currently deploying their go to market
37:36 budget. What we typically find and again
37:38 this is not everyone but this is sort of
37:40 general general conclusions is we
37:44 typically see demand is overfunded um
37:48 brand is underfunded and there's no real
37:50 proactive consideration around the
37:52 expand pillar. So that seems to be kind
37:55 of the predominant theme across a lot of
37:57 companies that we work with. And a lot
38:00 of people will ask like well how much
38:02 should we spend you know per pillar or
38:04 per channel or per pro per program? And
38:06 so, you know, I think there's no perfect
38:08 ratio. Every business is going to be
38:11 different. But I think that as a general
38:15 rule, we've been anchoring on um, you
38:18 know, the reality is, you know, growing
38:20 today and tomorrow and next week is
38:21 going to continue to be super critical
38:23 for every business. And so, you know, 50
38:26 to 60% of your budget maybe is allocated
38:28 to demand programs. That's really
38:30 anchored on those shorter and
38:32 medium-term results. Um but that you
38:35 know then hopefully 20 to 30% is
38:37 invested in various brand programs and
38:39 like let's get expand to the table at
38:41 least and allocate 10 to 20% of your
38:43 overall go to market motion. And again
38:46 these are intended to be ranges to
38:48 provide kind of a baseline for people to
38:51 just be thinking about their own budget
38:53 and first asking the question of like
38:55 how are we allocating things today? Are
38:56 there things that we're just totally
38:59 ignoring or not taking advantage of that
39:02 um are going to impact our ability to
39:04 grow in the medium and the long term and
39:05 should we be thinking about making some
39:08 changes? Um I would imagine you kind of
39:11 mentioned this earlier on in our talk,
39:14 Gianna, that um sometimes there's no
39:17 like budget line item at all for
39:19 customer marketing or various programs
39:21 related to customer marketing. And so
39:22 I'm sure you have a lot to say on this
39:25 topic too, but what's what's your POV on
39:27 sort of budgeting and how companies need
39:28 to be thinking about this?
39:31 >> Yeah, I I think that this is a CRO
39:34 conversation. It needs to be customer
39:37 marketing is a core function of making
39:41 sure that new gotom market motion runs.
39:44 And why I say that is because everyone
39:47 is really tasked with growing more
39:49 efficiently these days. And the way to
39:51 do that is to focus on NRR. That means
39:53 that you must focus on your retention
39:55 and your expansion of your customers. It
39:57 means that you have to have acute focus
40:00 on your ICP so that you're not wasting
40:03 dollars uh on brand or demand marketing
40:07 to the wrong people. How you continue to
40:11 invest in the right areas and understand
40:13 your ICP by understanding your
40:15 customers. making sure that you invest
40:17 in a cab so that you understand how
40:19 they're evolving. Therefore, your
40:21 product or your service evolves with
40:23 them as well. This is what's going to
40:24 ensure that your road map is always
40:27 representative of the evolving needs of
40:30 your ICP. So, in my mind, I would flip
40:32 it and say expand really like your
40:34 customers is where you need to invest
40:36 in. And we're starting to see that
40:38 customer marketing has more and more
40:41 influence within this conversation
40:42 because there are now tools like
40:45 Champion where you can really tie your
40:49 efforts to ROI showing the revenue
40:51 impact and that of course is what a CRO
40:54 needs to see but really thinking about
40:56 um how your customers are that
41:00 centralized kind of engine to the bigger engine.
41:01 engine.
41:04 >> Yeah, I love that. And as kind of a a
41:06 customer success professional at heart,
41:09 I spent the bulk of my career really in
41:11 that discipline, I you know, I couldn't
41:15 agree more. I think um and uh love that
41:17 you kind of are going at it from the CRO
41:19 angle. I think that's really smart and
41:22 that makes a lot of sense in terms of
41:24 who are the right folks at, you know, on
41:27 the C team that are going to have, you
41:29 know, budget authority and influence
41:32 over these types of decisions. Um,
41:33 Um,
41:34 >> yeah, because you think about customer
41:36 marketing, they're really influencing
41:38 the the full scope of the customer
41:40 journey, right? Everything from, you
41:42 know, brand and and utilizing the
41:45 customer voice to build that brand to
41:46 demand some of the different practices
41:48 that we mentioned of references,
41:51 referrals, tracking job changes to then
41:53 expand motions as well, creating
41:54 advocates, understanding who they are,
41:57 and giving them a platform of influence.
42:01 >> Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Awesome. Um,
42:04 let's open it up for questions. Um, we
42:05 have about 10 minutes left, so we can
42:07 take a few questions and do a few
42:10 closing thoughts. Um, oh, Duke had a
42:12 very direct question for you, G, in the
42:15 in the chat.
42:17 >> Um, are you reading it?
42:19 >> I have not read it yet. Uh, >> oh.
42:19 >> oh.
42:22 >> Um, he was asking, there's no pricing on
42:24 the Champion website. Is that is there a
42:26 strategy behind it?
42:28 >> And I'm a longtime listener, so I just I
42:30 remember Chris talking about this. so
42:32 many years ago. And again, it's
42:34 >> yeah, we do advocate for pricing transparency.
42:36 transparency.
42:37 >> So, I was just curious because honestly,
42:39 after listening to some of the initial
42:40 parts of this conversation, I
42:42 immediately forwarded your website link
42:44 to another team member. And like Megan
42:47 was saying, I'm going through my own
42:49 budget right now as well, looking at,
42:51 okay, is this something that I advocate
42:52 for just for my team? So, I was just
42:54 more curious than anything.
42:56 >> I love it. Uh Duke, I've written down
42:57 your name. you will be getting a reach
43:01 out after this but um uh we we took it
43:03 down because we are working on it. Uh so
43:06 the int intentionality is we are uh
43:09 revising our pricing structure.
43:11 >> Got it. So is the intent once you have
43:13 some kind of an updated model you'll
43:15 you'll publish it on the site for folks. >> Yes.
43:15 >> Yes.
43:17 >> Yeah. Nice. Nice. So it's under construction.
43:18 construction.
43:21 >> Under construction. Correct. But yeah,
43:23 we're we're big proponents of pricing
43:25 transparency and it just goes back to
43:27 the um kind of the point that I made in
43:31 in the demand pillar section around
43:33 removing friction from the buying
43:36 process, right? And um under giving
43:39 people all the information that they
43:41 need um so that when they're coming in
43:43 and saying, "Hey, I want to have a sales
43:45 conversation." um they've almost gone
43:47 through, you know, a majority of
43:49 qualification almost on their own by
43:51 understanding who you serve, what you
43:53 offer, how much it costs, you know, the
43:56 outcomes you can provide. So, uh for
43:58 those that are here, you can look in the
44:00 chat, but um Elaine is saying, "I'm
44:02 curious, do enterprise companies plan
44:04 their strategies around something like
44:07 brand demand expand?" Uh maybe that's a
44:08 silly question, but I'd love to
44:10 understand if that's actually how it
44:12 works asking this because it's mentioned
44:14 earlier that there's no budget for
44:16 allocated for expand. And so it's a
44:20 great question. So typically what I see
44:21 um and the majority of Refined Labs
44:23 customers are what I would classify as
44:25 like mid-market and enterprise
44:27 companies. So typically what we see from
44:31 a budget perspective is there's
44:34 typically budget allocated for demand
44:38 and brand. Um those are typically line
44:40 items. Again usually what we see is that
44:43 demand is almost overfunded and that
44:46 brand is underfunded. Now when we think
44:48 about the expand pillar, I think some of
44:52 the line items that might exist under
44:55 the expand pillar um are things probably
44:58 related to essentially product or
45:00 customer success. And so it's not that
45:03 there's sort of nothing there, but what
45:07 I would say is it's uh budgeted as
45:10 almost like um cost of goods sold and
45:13 not a growth investment. people are not
45:16 thinking about it that way and even the
45:18 handful of strategies that G went over
45:21 today in terms of uh references,
45:24 referrals, job changes, there's no
45:26 intentionality really behind that or
45:28 especially for these larger companies
45:31 like how are you actually marketing like
45:32 you have tens of thousands of customers
45:34 or you have hundreds of thousands of
45:37 customers like that's a huge audience
45:39 and you can be marketing to them just
45:41 like you market to your prospective
45:44 customers And so, um, typically what we
45:47 see is, um, what we're calling expand as
45:51 a growth pillar is not explicitly
45:54 budgeted for as a growth motion. And
45:56 there could be some line items that are
45:59 representing, you know, um, account
46:03 management or account expansion. Um, but
46:05 it's typically looked at as a cost
46:09 center versus a growth investment. Um,
46:11 and again, even if it is in the budget
46:14 as a cost center, it's typically
46:17 underfunded of what I think it it
46:20 deserves. Um, and I think it just
46:22 becomes I think it's really just a lack
46:25 of connecting the dots around how these
46:27 can have an impact. And what I would say
46:31 is if you think about like 2020 to 2024,
46:34 the reality is for most companies, net
46:37 new logo acquisition was the most
46:40 important thing. And really everything
46:42 else was kind of put to the side or
46:44 ignored. But we're moving into a new
46:47 world right now in a new era and we're
46:51 already beginning to see how the erosion
46:54 of your customer base in you know in
46:58 churn um you know a lack of flat NR or
47:02 declining NRR has really serious
47:04 business implications and so we're we're
47:07 at this juncture now where people are
47:09 starting to see this as a real problem
47:11 and this is why we are talking about
47:13 this because there's is actually
47:15 something that companies can do and they
47:17 can start to do things differently than
47:19 how they've done things before and I
47:21 think this is a good thing. Obviously
47:23 net new logo acquisition is super
47:24 important and it will continue to be
47:26 important but these other pillars are
47:28 just as important as well. And so my I
47:32 think for G and I I think the hope is if
47:34 we can just talk about things, educate
47:36 people, um give them a road map of how
47:38 to think about moving from where they
47:41 are today to the next phase of building
47:43 their growth engine that we can help
47:45 more and more companies move in this
47:47 direction. G, what would you add?
47:49 >> Yeah, I I think you're exactly right
47:51 about that. What I would add is and this
47:52 is where it goes back to budgeting,
47:54 right? there needs to be a budget for
47:56 expand and it's really thinking about if
47:59 your only focus or your primary focus is
48:01 on adding net new pipeline, it's
48:03 constant hamster wheel because you're
48:05 not focused on the fallout and so you
48:06 not only have to grow if you need to
48:09 grow 15% but you're losing 10%. Like
48:11 you've got to make up that 10% and then
48:14 get to the 15% growth. Um that is very
48:17 expensive. That is what causes burnout.
48:21 that is what will give you and impact
48:24 your brand reputation of potentially not
48:28 meeting ICP needs. So again, really
48:30 focus in on this expansion motion,
48:32 really focus in on your growth through
48:34 your customers is inherently going to
48:38 help your growth rate on demand grow
48:39 because of that word of mouth, because
48:41 of that success, because of how it
48:42 strengthens the brand.
48:45 >> Yeah, 100%. Well said.
48:47 Um, any other questions before we wrap up?
48:49 up?
48:50 This is when I need my Jeopardy music playing.
48:56 All right. Well, we'll give it a another
48:58 second or two for some questions. See if
49:01 another one pops up. And G, you can
49:03 start preparing your your closing
49:06 remarks. Oh, Duke, come on. Come on.
49:07 Come on up. Just
49:10 >> one more if that's okay. What's your
49:12 best advice to create better sales and
49:19 I love this question. Um my favorite
49:22 favorite favorite activity um we did
49:25 this at air call. Um Maline Dup pre
49:29 helped um orchestrate this session. Um
49:31 we had
49:33 first team alignment um and we didn't do
49:36 this at the seauite we did it at um my
49:38 team did this right so again I shared
49:40 with you we were SDRBDR all the way
49:42 through customer success I had my VPs
49:44 and director level we all got in a
49:46 meeting and we talked about the customer
49:48 journey we talked about where there was
49:51 fallout we talked about really thinking
49:53 about where we could catch that fallout
49:55 and create improvement plans and we had
49:57 everyone build it together all of the
49:59 different department heads so that they
50:02 had to think about the impact of bum
50:05 MQLs or you know closing deals that
50:07 weren't within the ICP and how that
50:10 impacts the plus one that next team. So
50:12 really aligning everyone on the outcome
50:15 which is strong NRR right and whatever
50:18 that number might be your goals are and
50:20 building that program together really
50:22 understanding how would we rate
50:24 ourselves how would our customers rate
50:26 us within each of these segments of the
50:28 customer journey where is their fallout
50:30 and what can we do to improve that so
50:32 it's getting everyone to think about
50:35 this holistically the second tip and I
50:37 don't know if you can if you can do this
50:39 um something that I did was I put a
50:41 bonus in place so that we were looking
50:44 at the total growth number. So my goal
50:48 was, you know, ARR, right, and NRR. Um,
50:50 and so it was, you know, h putting a
50:53 bonus in place so that your BDR manager
50:55 is thinking all the way through customer
50:57 success. Uh, and and that way, you know,
50:59 have whatever that total, you know,
51:02 whether it's a a global number or a a,
51:03 you know, P&L number for a certain
51:06 geography, having them targeted on that
51:07 to make them think, you know, a few
51:10 steps ahead.
51:12 I love that. That's a great exercise. I
51:15 was going to just add I think um shared
51:18 goals and incentives. I think that a lot
51:21 of the um misalignment that happens um
51:23 can be solved at the leadership level
51:25 with appropriate goal setting and
51:27 incentives, but getting everyone in the
51:30 room and rallied around the customer is
51:31 how you're going to get like the boots
51:33 on the ground really invested, I think,
51:34 in that. I love love that
51:37 recommendation, Gianna.
51:39 >> Awesome. Thank you both.
51:40 >> Yeah, great questions, Duke. You were
51:48 >> Um, all right. I think, uh, great event.
51:49 We're gonna have to do this again
51:53 sometime. Um, so wonderful to have you.
51:56 Um, and as we're wrapping things up.
51:58 Okay. So, if I had to say, you know,
52:00 what were some of the top, you know, top
52:02 three takeaways from this conversation
52:03 that you just kind of want to reinforce
52:05 for everyone before we wrap up?
52:08 I focus on expand. That's what's going
52:10 to drive the other two. Strengthen the
52:12 other two pillars. I would end with that.
52:14 that.
52:16 >> I love that. So that's one, two, and
52:17 three. Focus on expand.
52:20 >> That's right. That's all you get from me.
52:20 me.
52:22 >> I love it. I love it. Well, it was
52:24 awesome to see everyone. Uh we'll be
52:26 publishing this to the podcast. Uh so
52:28 check out Stacking Growth. Um thanks to
52:30 Gianna for being here with me and we
52:32 will catch you next month which are with
52:35 at our next event. Good to see everyone.
52:36 Thanks for the great questions, Duke.
