0:01 if you want to invest into wine first
0:04 you need to love wine and and you need
0:06 to have pleasure with it because it's a
0:10 risky asset so if you don't it's not
0:12 something secure it's not a way to
0:14 securely store some money somewhere so
0:15 at least you need to take the pleasure
0:18 so if I always say it's the most liquid
0:19 investment because at the end of the day
0:21 if it's a poor investment you still have
0:23 a great wine you open it and you you
0:24 pour it and you drink it with your
0:27 friends I often wonder whether or not
0:30 the uh the best days for wine
0:33 Investments are gone because you see
0:35 like some of these bottles especially
0:38 burgundy especially BTO are so expensive
0:40 and then the question arises how more
0:43 expensive can it get it is a very good [Music]
0:49 question hi everybody Welcome to no
0:52 sediment wine podcast and today my guest
0:54 is tamama Haymon wine adviser for
0:57 private wine collectors correct correct
0:59 did I pronounce your name correctly absolutely
1:00 absolutely
1:03 okay hi hi so before we start could you
1:06 please tell tell us more about yourself
1:08 and your wine journey and why are you
1:10 qualified to talk about wine investment
1:12 sure hello everyone I originally come
1:15 from a a family of wine merchants and we
1:18 deal in wine since 1842 in in the north
1:20 of Belgium so I grew up in a wine
1:22 environment where you start getting a
1:24 few drops of wine in your water when
1:25 you're 12 when you start drinking wine
1:28 when you're 15 and you start learn the
1:30 Journey of learning about about wine so
1:32 that's how I started and I got very
1:35 interested into wine not only Bordeaux
1:38 where originally uh we were investing in
1:39 and we had already the family had some
1:41 wine Estates like
1:45 V down there so but I also decided to
1:48 harvest in burgundy and to visit the and
1:51 to visit the B Main and and other
1:54 regions outside of France and in 2005 I
1:57 decided to set up my own Boutique um to
1:59 help people that wanted to uh collect
2:01 wine so that there's basically two
2:03 Trends um is to make people discover
2:06 other wines and help people to make
2:09 private Collections and can you explain
2:12 what wine investment is and how it
2:15 differs from Simply collecting wine yeah
2:17 it it's it's really the strategy is what
2:18 do you want to do with the wine that you
2:21 will be buying so some people buy wines
2:23 uh to enjoy it in a couple years
2:26 themselves some people ask me to do
2:27 private collections for their children
2:30 saying I want I want long-term wines but
2:32 let me buy wines that I will enjoy with
2:33 my children or that my my children will
2:36 enjoy after me but that's really an A
2:38 View to consume the wine to enjoy it a
2:40 wine investment is of course a a more
2:42 mertile approach is to say I will buy
2:45 now uh wine in order to be able to
2:48 resell them with a profit in five 10
2:51 years Time 5 10 10 years that would be
2:54 the yes that I always say less than 5
2:56 years is is not really an option okay
2:59 and and 10 is probably the best is is
3:00 basically by the the ones when they're
3:02 young and starting to sell them when
3:05 they enter and they their drinking
3:07 window yeah sure so what is an
3:10 investment great wine an an investment
3:13 great wine is of course a wine that can
3:14 age so you need to have the Aging
3:17 potential and a wine that people will be
3:19 looking for in five to year 10 years
3:22 time at a higher price than the one you
3:24 that the price that you paid for it so
3:26 that's the main if you want to buy wine
3:27 to make a profit in a couple years it's
3:30 of course the first AR argument now
3:32 beyond that you still need to take
3:35 pleasure and therefore invest in wines
3:37 that you believe are are are great wines
3:40 otherwise it's it's just like a private
3:42 car collector or a private stem
3:45 collector or you invest in something
3:46 that you believe will bring you some
3:47 profits in the year within something
3:50 that that you enjoy as well but there
3:53 must be several factors that that impact
3:55 whether or not the wine is really
3:57 investment grade wine and I often think
3:58 that one of the factors would be ageability
3:59 ageability
4:02 you said that it must be able to live at
4:04 least five or 10 years yes so the the
4:08 first thing is is a wine that improve
4:11 with age so one one of those 20% of of
4:13 the total uh wine production in the
4:16 world that can age that get better after
4:19 five six seven 10 years Bordeaux is one
4:21 example we spoke about it earlier most
4:23 great bordeau have to wait minimum 5
4:25 years and ideally 10 years we always say
4:27 you have to start opening them after 8
4:29 to 10 years so that's that's that's one
4:31 of the reason because otherwise if you
4:33 invest in a wine that that has to be
4:34 drunk within the next two years or
4:37 doesn't improve there is no real reason
4:39 to keep it that that that actually
4:41 answers my next question because I was
4:45 thinking um is there maybe some examples
4:47 or exceptions that there are wines that
4:50 are not necessarily great for aging but
4:53 there could still be investment grade
4:55 wines probably not I probably not I will
4:57 think about it it's a very good question
4:59 but but but probably not because the
5:01 fact is that you have you need this time
5:03 for the price to increase of course if
5:05 you buy a bottle in January you're not
5:07 going to resell it with a 20% or 25%
5:10 increase in price in September unless
5:12 it's a very rare R and you have the
5:15 possibility to to have it at a good
5:16 price then you could do but that would
5:20 be more it would be more like as a buy
5:22 and resell is that you you get a very
5:24 good price if you buy them at a normal
5:26 price which would be most of the cases
5:27 of course you need this this period of
5:29 time for the wine to for the price of
5:32 that one to increase and and and also
5:34 for because you will resell them mostly
5:37 to people that will want to drink them
5:38 so you will want to resell them when
5:42 their their aging potential is reached
5:44 and the wine is ready for drinking so uh
5:46 how important is the role of limited
5:48 availability of that of that wine
5:51 because I often think uh and I might be
5:53 quoting wrong numbers but this is what I
5:56 read or heard somewhere D Peron which I
5:58 think is investment grade wine is
6:00 released like like 5 million bottles
6:03 every every year or every almost every
6:06 year yeah so it's it's um there are two
6:07 types of wines there are there are ones
6:09 that people are looking for because they
6:13 are rare if if you take ran for example
6:15 there's not that many bottles produced
6:17 every year so if you want a ran and if
6:19 you want a specific here it's going to
6:21 be difficult to find in bordo the same
6:24 goes for for Le two hectars a few
6:26 thousand botles a year so it's it's at
6:28 certain stage it gets R but you have
6:31 other examples like mut
6:32 they produce hundreds of thousands of
6:34 bottles every year and it's still a
6:37 great investment wine so it never gets
6:39 it really never gets rare but the price
6:41 still increases because people know that
6:43 the wine is getting better and so and
6:46 there are clients that are looking for
6:49 muton or laf that are ready to drink now
6:51 they don't want to wait so they say I
6:53 want a 2016 or I want a 2006 and they're
6:56 ready to pay the price okay yeah you
6:57 don't have to look for the one that is
7:01 only produced in in 800 cases there are
7:03 there are wines op in in Napa is the
7:05 same thing they produce quite a lot of
7:07 wine but it's still a great w investment
7:11 wine yeah but what I just uh realized
7:13 and I wanted to ask you how important in
7:16 nowadays of tech like the technology uh
7:18 is the Vintage because there are some
7:21 wine makers who will swear that the wine
7:23 is made into the vineyard like the great
7:25 wine is made within a Vineyard and there
7:27 are some who say that the Vintage
7:29 doesn't matter anymore because we have
7:31 technology like Optical swaters that
7:34 will make great wine every year I I
7:37 don't I mean I do wine myself and of
7:40 course the the years where the weather
7:43 wasn't as great as we hoped we do our
7:46 best to do the best wine we can but at a
7:47 certain stage if you didn't have enough
7:50 Sun if you don't get to maturity or if
7:52 there was too much water and and there's
7:54 more water in the graves than you
7:57 expected you can still do a very good
7:59 wine but it's still going to be lower
8:00 than the previous year or the the year
8:02 after where the meteorological
8:04 conditions are perfect and it's the same
8:06 for muton and it's the same for for
8:08 everyone it's that the certain stage of
8:12 course if you drink a muton 17 or 13
8:13 it's a great wine it's a fantastic wine
8:16 but if you compare it to a 16 then it's
8:19 it's a you will feel the difference even
8:20 though it's the same vintage it's same
8:22 Technologies the same people they take
8:24 the same care even more care in the
8:26 Years where it's too much rain on enough
8:28 Sun but still at the end of the day it's
8:30 it's still an agriculture product is the
8:32 quality the the quality of your Graves
8:36 when they enter the wine making facility
8:38 it really it it depends on the weather
8:41 so you can't make unless someone one day
8:43 wants to make a wine in in in a closed
8:46 area but I wouldn't recommend it yeah
8:49 also I I I don't want to live in that
8:51 time yeah no and don't do with wines
8:53 what you did with tomatoes please yeah
8:57 exactly that's a good point um Are there
8:59 specific wines or regions that are best
9:02 to invest yes of course there is
9:04 absolutely I mean if you you can invest
9:06 in you can buy as much moldavian wine
9:08 that you want and they are great
9:10 moldavian wines but I don't believe it
9:12 will be a huge increase in price over
9:15 over the years so there are regions they
9:17 of course as we always say there are
9:19 regions that are mature so if you take
9:22 Bordeaux burgundy Napa uh and and and
9:24 some parts of Italy like the super
9:26 tuscans of course that's the wine that
9:27 most people collect there are other
9:31 regions like in Spain Del or or the rone
9:35 which are really also slowly becoming uh
9:37 regions from which you should invest
9:40 into certain producer or certain bottles
9:43 we can think about ChatOn dup we can
9:47 think of where 20 years ago I don't
9:48 think anyone would have ever really
9:51 invested um I have some clients we
9:54 invested in K in in in 2009 and has
9:57 proven to be a very good investment yes
10:00 okay so it's it's it's growing but wine
10:02 collection and wine investment is a very
10:05 long-term uh process like like in every
10:06 it's a bit like real estate you got some
10:08 parts of the city where you yeah they
10:10 are really fashionable there are the
10:12 other parts of the city where you you
10:14 think they will become much more
10:17 fashionable but it's also a bet cuz
10:19 sometimes they never do that's true you
10:21 B the building you thought in 20 years
10:23 this is going to be the place to have
10:26 and 20 years later they not
10:28 really but that's part that's just
10:29 that's part of the fund as as well is
10:31 that you you you you should always
10:33 diversify and say I will take some of
10:35 the very established I will some of the
10:37 top top some of the established and also
10:40 some of the rising stars that hopefully
10:42 will will rise at a certain stage yes
10:44 okay so you said that would be like
10:48 bordeau burgundy champagne as well yes
10:50 definitely champagne are the most
10:51 established Napa as well some of the
10:54 Napa wines but also in those regions you
10:56 got very well established wines that
10:58 everybody wants to to collect and you
11:01 have also Rising Stars the younger
11:03 generation or or Estates that are
11:06 becoming a lot more I mean which
11:09 sometimes are there for for for for a
11:11 long time sorry yeah but that no to
11:14 start to have more attraction into wine
11:17 collections you take Spotswood in Napa
11:19 um she she unfortunately the founder she
11:21 unfortunately passed away a few years
11:23 ago but in 10 years ago nobody was
11:25 speaking of Spotswood no we integrate
11:27 Spotswood in several collections because
11:29 we we believe and we know that price is
11:31 increasing and there is demand for that
11:34 wine when it's 10 12 15 years old okay
11:37 oh and the emerging what would be the
11:39 emerging wine regions you you
11:42 mentioned yeah for me rone is definitely
11:44 uh but also a bit no more more than ran
11:47 if you go to Jura Sawa it's it's really
11:50 increasing we we saw someone like
11:53 gva also 10 or 15 years ago real
11:55 connoisseur knew the place but it wasn't
11:57 really considering as a collecting you
11:59 have some of the L as well well that is
12:01 they are they are increasing where where
12:05 you see demand and then and then um pimo
12:07 in Italy of course is is really Rising
12:11 not only the five top stars but others
12:13 and R Delo where you had a few wines
12:16 with 100 points which really started to
12:17 for collectors or people like me to
12:19 start looking at and say is there really
12:22 that quality there and there is there is
12:26 so this brought me to wondering is there
12:28 more regions outside Europe as well
12:31 because currently we only see kind of
12:34 Napa and I think uh that's a that's a
12:36 difficult one yes there is definitely a
12:39 Napa if you take a little bit in um in
12:42 Argentina so a few of the the top uh
12:46 Mendoza wines uh are are emerging the
12:48 fact is that the as you said it needs to
12:50 be rare but it cannot be too rare
12:52 because nobody knows about it if you do
12:54 a fantastic wine but you do 800 bottles
12:57 a year and you only sell it to your
12:59 neighbors then it doesn't get that
13:00 attraction and that's sometimes that's
13:01 something that you have in certain
13:03 countries like Argentina or Portugal
13:06 they are absolutely brilliant wines that
13:08 when I taste them I would really want to
13:10 put them in a collection but they don't
13:12 sell any cuz they say we have our
13:14 natural clients we've made a location
13:17 systems reproduce 800 cases a year and
13:18 they all go to these people so you have
13:21 to go to these people if you want a case
13:22 but but we're not going to do
13:23 collections with one case what we want
13:25 to have access is a bit a bit more but
13:28 sure yes yeah and I was also wondering
13:31 uh regarding theoha for example and the
13:34 question then arise in my mind does it
13:36 have to do something with the fact that
13:40 they lack ionic Wines in the region yes
13:42 because we have in Riva Delo we have
13:46 Vega Sicilia and in supp super in
13:48 Tuscany we have super tuskin like sasay
13:51 or Naya but in rioa maybe there's lack
13:54 of these like as you said 100 point or
13:57 like iconic the first thing is um for me
13:59 there there's two things there's super
14:02 Tuscan of Vegas Sicilia uh or or or
14:05 Pingus is that they it's it's bordo
14:08 Bloods so they they've tried to
14:11 reproduce What was made in bordo it's
14:12 it's very different at the end the
14:14 product is very interesting but they
14:16 didn't really work on the on the local
14:19 grapes and that's for me a little less
14:20 interesting because I always I always
14:23 think that local grapes should
14:26 first be brought to the top potential
14:28 but but yeah you need also some leaders
14:29 you need some people they want to
14:32 produce excellent quality wines and I'm
14:33 ready to put a price on it I say I'm not
14:35 going to sell it the price the people
14:37 want to pay I want to sell it the price
14:39 I want them to pay for it and and it
14:42 takes years I mean if you think about uh
14:44 even Bordeaux I mean after the second
14:47 world war half of the midok was bankrupt
14:49 and nobody was collecting wines and
14:52 nobody in 1947 shat mangu I think was
14:56 blended into some Entre cuz he know what
14:59 to do with it okay I won't SP that one
15:01 if I remember correctly I would need to
15:03 check but but uh so it takes a
15:07 generation or two generations to to rise
15:08 and and you need people that want to do
15:11 that so yes it's it's it's it's it's
15:13 true you need iconic people you need
15:15 leaders you need locomotives to to pull
15:18 the rest of the to the top but the fact
15:19 is that I think those regions don't have
15:23 any choice anymore because uh globally
15:25 people drink less wine but the value
15:26 they're ready to put in wine is
15:29 increasing so we are selling in europeo
15:31 we we are selling more and more wines
15:33 but in litters less and less so you have
15:36 really to the only trend is is to is to
15:37 increase your quality because otherwise
15:40 you will be left behind yeah yeah the
15:43 premiumization yeah exactly okay so um
15:46 we talked about the regions and uh and
15:48 what is the investment grade wine but
15:50 what kind of returns can investors
15:52 expect from wine especially if we are
15:56 comparing to other asset classes yes um
15:58 of course it really depends how much how
16:00 much Mone you're ready to put in there
16:02 and it really depends how much risk
16:04 you're ready to take now if you remain
16:08 in the very classical collection um but
16:11 so far uh we we beat most of the asset
16:14 classes only also because it's more
16:16 risky that most of the other asset
16:18 classes so it's always a risk and return
16:20 but normally you can hope well above 5%
16:23 you can between 5 and 10% per year but
16:25 of course it's also it's a a bottle of
16:27 wine doesn't pay a dividend so you have
16:29 to invest the day one and you get the
16:32 money back with the with the profit 5 10
16:34 years ago but hopefully after 10 years
16:37 you have minimum double the price okay
16:39 uh of the bottle that you purchased yes
16:41 doubl that's
16:44 not but uh sometimes when I speak with
16:47 people uh I even have had situations
16:49 when there are people coming in in the
16:51 wine shop and they say I have this one
16:54 old bottle in my seller or in my living
16:56 room or in my kitchen and what would be
16:59 the price I want to know and usually we
17:02 unfortunately send these people away
17:05 because uh this is not really how the uh
17:07 like in wine wine investment uh and
17:09 selling and buying happens so could you
17:12 maybe walk us through the process of
17:15 buying and storing the wine indeed uh we
17:17 have a lot of people coming and I I
17:19 always say the problem is not the prize
17:22 the pro the real problem at the end is
17:24 to find the buyer so us have to keep in
17:27 mind is who will want to buy my bottle
17:30 and therefore and then if you if to work
17:31 the other way you start thinking about
17:33 first the provence is I need to have a
17:36 absolutely pristine Provence I need to
17:39 prove there is a lot of fake wines uh
17:41 which bottles are absolutely very
17:43 difficult to to to track the fact that
17:45 they are they are they are false bottles
17:46 so the first thing is where did I buy
17:49 this wine and keep the records of saying
17:51 I bought it from a very established wine
17:53 um shop or I bought it from a wine
17:55 merchant or about it there so trust to
17:58 show where you got that bottle from
17:59 that's the that's the first first point
18:01 it's also the possibility to track the
18:02 price that you put and then there is the
18:05 storage of that portal is that this it's
18:07 not only about the quality of the
18:08 storage you might have at home a
18:10 fantastic sell which is perfect in
18:13 condition in humidity Etc but you need
18:14 to prove it as well because after 10
18:16 years the people will ask you okay that
18:18 bottle of pit I want to buy where was it
18:21 stored or in my seller ah and my seller
18:23 is perfect is perfect but you can't
18:26 prove it yeah and so you everyone will
18:28 say it's been it's been perfectly stored
18:30 even if it was in the kitchen below the
18:33 light and has been there like a like a
18:35 decoration for 10 years and then for
18:37 sure the wine is dead but that person
18:39 who will want to sell the bottle will
18:41 tell you it was perfectly stored so my
18:43 recommendation will always be is use one
18:45 of those um use one of those companies
18:48 that store for you and that they can and
18:51 they can certify that the storage was
18:54 absolutely in perfect conditions um like
18:56 Venia for example and the others but
18:58 that's that's very important so that's
19:00 that's the process and then the third
19:01 process as I said that the most
19:04 difficult is to find a buyer and these
19:06 companies can help you finding a buyer
19:07 finding a restaurant that is looking for
19:10 H wine or looking for someone that is is
19:12 throwing a party and once and wants wine
19:13 from that that is ready to drink to
19:16 impress his guest so it's it's much
19:18 easier if there is a Marketplace or if
19:21 the company is helping you to sell it
19:23 because also people will see that
19:24 they're buying from a
19:26 professional even though the profit will
19:28 be for you because you you pay for that
19:30 ble 10 years ago and you will get the
19:32 profit but it's much easier than going
19:33 with you pus on the road and say I have
19:42 5,000 but of course we sometimes find uh
19:45 fantastic private Sellers and we audit
19:48 them and we check them but for me it's a
19:50 different class it's is when I resell
19:52 when I buy those private and then I
19:55 resell them I resell them to people that
19:57 know and we explain them this was a
19:59 private seller we've checked we've been
20:02 there it was an elderly person is he had
20:05 a fantastic uh wine seller we tested the
20:07 wine it's is beautiful but please know
20:09 it comes from a private seller okay for
20:11 me it's important that people know
20:12 because when they buy from a
20:14 professional they're expecting if if
20:15 it's not a specific case they're
20:17 expecting something absolutely pristine
20:19 in terms of Provence and in terms of
20:20 storage so would you say that buying
20:22 from a private seller means you have
20:26 higher risk that also means lower uh
20:29 price Than People yeah this this
20:30 normally you should pay a lower price
20:34 when you buy it from a private seller um
20:35 if if you buy it and the problem if you
20:37 store it in your private seller you
20:39 probably will sell it lower MH unless
20:41 you find someone that trusts you but if
20:44 you sell it on the open market usually
20:46 private sellers are sold at the lower
20:49 prices okay and uh if I would want to
20:53 invest in wine uh would I have to do
20:56 like whole cases is like whole cases
20:58 easier to sell or like single bottles
21:01 can I buy whole for example can I buy
21:05 whole case of uh muton Ro child and then
21:07 may me drink few bottles and then sell
21:10 like 10 bottles away what is that
21:12 that
21:14 it's no that's a very good question I
21:16 always say that the day you open the
21:19 case you lost 25% of its value okay so
21:21 you need to know that entire case is
21:26 closed with the band Etc uh are have a
21:27 better value that's what people are
21:28 looking for they're looking for close
21:31 cases that doesn't mean you can't sell a
21:33 few bottles and what you're saying is an
21:34 excellent idea that's what I I mainly
21:37 say if you buy into if you invest into
21:39 wine that you enjoy at least drink one
21:41 or two because otherwise it's a bit of a
21:43 Pity and maybe your profit you will
21:44 drink your profit but at least you will
21:46 have drunk this beautiful wine for free
21:49 because the rest of the B so yes you can
21:52 decide to invest into one one one pus
21:55 one na one oppus one Etc this this is
21:58 this is absolutely feasible but if you
21:59 have the means I would always recommend
22:03 to um to invest into full cases yeah but
22:05 there are cases of three on on premium
22:07 WIS okay so there's cases of one if you
22:10 go to that level about €500 a bottle you
22:12 can have an original wooden case of one
22:15 which which is then very nice and I I
22:16 recently have a client who bought he
22:19 wanted a vertical collection of of L and
22:21 and I told him if you want that I would
22:23 strongly recommend to buy original
22:25 wooden cases of one of each is going to
22:27 be much nicer and I would recommend you
22:29 never to open them even if you unless
22:31 you want to drink it of course but if
22:32 you don't want to drink it if the idea
22:34 is to resell it later my recommendation
22:37 would not to um open them because it's
22:39 it's it's it's much easier and it's much
22:42 people are looking for this original
22:45 yeah yeah yeah wooden case yeah sure
22:46 okay okay I did not know because
22:48 originally it just seems that when you
22:50 want to invest and you have to start
22:52 like for example with Bordeaux then to
22:54 buy whole case which would be six or 12
22:57 bottles is a lot of investment and then
23:00 you mentioned like have to diversify and
23:02 that's even more yeah but if you want to
23:05 do per one buy original wooden case of
23:08 one bottle of my or original wood case
23:11 of one of M uh because that's going to
23:15 be easier to resell yes okay
23:18 um actually which I did not mention and
23:20 now I'm thinking about it we keep
23:22 thinking we we keep talking about
23:26 bordeau but uh we did not talk about on
23:28 Premier yeah which is uh in the
23:30 investment Market is becoming more and
23:33 more popular but lately I've also seen
23:36 some articles that say that not
23:38 necessarily the price is increasing or
23:42 or is increasing as fast as we expect so
23:44 do what is what are your thoughts on on
23:47 on Premier currently in this current
23:49 stage it's it's again a bit looking into
23:51 the bowl of Crystal and and trying to to
23:54 guess uh people I always tell to people remember
23:55 remember
23:57 1997 when the when the wines were
24:00 released the prices were lower than on
24:03 prer so people that bought 1997 on prer
24:04 most of them lost money between the
24:06 between the time they paid and the time
24:08 they received the bottles so it's not an
24:10 automatic thing you can't you cannot
24:12 believe I will pay that price and it
24:15 will increase later the shatto of course
24:17 will increase the price between the
24:19 people that bought opem and then people
24:20 will buy when the wine is available they
24:22 will because that's part of the rules
24:25 but after on the secondary Market if
24:28 there is too much wine as currently you
24:29 might might see the prices dropping and
24:30 that's what we've seen recently if you
24:33 take the last year most most of the even
24:34 the iconic wines we saw the price is
24:37 slowly uh going down and that's what
24:39 also provoked the bordeau to issue their
24:43 arm prier 2023 with a with a 20 to 40%
24:46 discounts compared to last year yeah so
24:48 it's it's it's not automatic but over
24:51 the time if you look since some existed
24:53 yes is that normally you you pay even
24:56 less if you take the opim risk because
24:57 you need to know it's a risk because you
24:59 give the money the wine doesn't exist
25:01 already it's it's in a barrel somewhere
25:02 but the bottles are not there so you
25:04 don't know what could happen either to
25:07 your Merchant or or to the wine but I I
25:08 recommend it I say to people if you want
25:10 to really make I mean not if you want to
25:12 make a collection of 12 bottles I
25:13 wouldn't go there but if you
25:15 systematically we have collectors they
25:18 gave us an order of saying you buy a
25:19 case of each of these ones every year on
25:23 PR until I die and and that's part of
25:25 the game they want to have they want to
25:27 make sure that to have the one they want
25:29 to make sure they pay the best
25:31 what should be the best price and and
25:33 they want vertical collections so they
25:37 won muton from from 2010 to 20040 but
25:38 they W every single year in their
25:41 collection yes so I I would recommend it
25:44 and over the years it has been the case
25:46 that it was always cheaper on premere
25:48 than later yeah with a few exceptions
25:50 and there are now some Chateau that are
25:53 exiting on premere system for example
25:55 atour I think yeah yeah so what are your
25:58 thoughts on this they are essenti
26:01 releasing wine when they say it's ready
26:04 yeah that's what um that's what mupo
26:05 said he said I want to release my wines
26:08 when I believe they already so L 17 has
26:11 been released recently but no no younger
26:13 vintages and he hasn't released 16
26:15 Because he believes 16 is not I think
26:19 the the main the you need to think about
26:22 the origin of a the origin of a was
26:25 first store wine takes a lot of space so
26:28 the chatos they need every year to see
26:30 those bottles leave the estate because
26:33 they don't have unlimited space to store
26:35 except a few a few of them but also in
26:38 terms of Treasury the originally the EM
26:40 was not accessible to the end consumer
26:42 it was the negoti the wine Merchants
26:44 were helping the Chateau by advancing
26:47 them Treasury and and already have have
26:49 their wines and now the problem that we
26:52 see is that some of those they just are
26:55 acting as Brokers so by the minute they
26:57 bought the bottle on PR at the chatau
26:58 they try to resell it or they resell it
27:00 automatically and so people with very
27:03 Deep Pockets like Mr P he said why
27:05 should I I don't need Brokers I need
27:07 people that age because the idea of emur
27:09 is that the nego would buy it on Prem
27:11 would Age it in bottles and would
27:13 release it a few years later if you take
27:15 our grandparents you could never buy the
27:17 latest vintage it was always all the
27:20 ones that even at the wine making
27:22 facility it was there so that's why some
27:23 people are basically said if if that's
27:25 the case if they only act as a broker I
27:27 don't need the cash so I'll just do it
27:29 myself and I'll I'll benefit from the
27:32 increase in quality and in price yes
27:34 okay but we thought at a certain stage
27:36 we thought it would be a very big Trend
27:39 but it's it hasn't been really uh this
27:42 it's only a few a few ones so far and
27:44 we've seen other Estates who were not
27:46 available em we decided to enter the
27:48 entrepreneur system so it's it's back
27:52 and forth okay actually yeah before we
27:55 move on to the next question uh you
27:58 reminded me of something you said I I I
27:59 decided to buy wines that I thought I
28:01 could never have access to and this is
28:05 something that I maybe start to feel a
28:07 bit angry about when we talk about wine
28:10 investment then be it is because of that
28:14 that wine has become an investment asset
28:17 many people who love wine simple people
28:19 like me I cannot afford these wines
28:22 anymore I often think about salom which
28:24 was which is amazing champagne and I
28:26 liked it so much there's no way I'm
28:28 buying that bottle anymore you want to
28:32 spend ,000 on the B more more I mean
28:36 whenever I checked lately it is like th
28:40 1,800 like close to 2,000 per bottle and
28:42 it's just and and actually in this case
28:44 I even blame the producer because they
28:48 did release the 2008 only in Magnum so
28:51 it yeah okay yeah in decreases yeah yeah
28:54 yeah and also increased price so yeah so
28:56 what are your thoughts on this like how
28:58 can we apologize to those people who
29:01 cannot afford these wines anymore yeah
29:04 know I I I agree but but it's it's it's
29:07 a fact basically is that there is one
29:08 thing that people I
29:11 always when I speak about one investment
29:13 I always say to people keep in mind that
29:15 all these bottles are
29:17 somewhere so pay I mean of course some
29:19 of them are drunk when they're resell
29:21 sold but we know that some bottles like
29:24 Roman that we spoke before are basically
29:27 kept like trophies like gold and of
29:29 course the ction of gold increases and
29:30 we see the price of gold increasing so
29:32 it doesn't mean that it can still
29:34 increase in price but one day I would
29:35 say one day all these bottles will come
29:37 from the underground and will will pop
29:39 on the market and then you could see one
29:42 day that the price of wine decreases so
29:44 in wine investment is a risky investment
29:46 like like other Investments but also
29:48 like real estate or or or or if you buy
29:50 shares of a company it could also
29:51 decrease quite quite drastically for
29:53 some reasons that you were not expecting
29:56 but yes it's it's also my case is that
29:58 um I don't drinky
30:02 anymore exactly it seems almost I don't
30:05 know like inappropriate to open that
30:07 yeah I a chance to still drink it
30:08 sometimes with with clients or with
30:10 collections that really want to and and
30:12 their problem is with home can I drink
30:14 that and when I'm around they just dig
30:16 the opportunity to to open one but but
30:19 personally I'm I'm even psychologically
30:20 I'm not ready to put so much money in a
30:23 boss of one yeah yeah that's the thing
30:26 and um but it can we there are some
30:27 mistakes and people have to think about
30:28 it but there are some mistakes they want
30:31 to keep their prices down to give it
30:33 access to real amateurs and those ones
30:35 are very difficult to get but they also
30:36 sometimes ask you to sign with your
30:38 blood that you're going to drink what
30:40 they give you because they don't want
30:43 this to happen and I know that for Ober
30:45 V it was when he wrote about it he said
30:47 I'm so sad because I know that less than
30:49 half of the bottles that I produce are
30:52 drunk the others are stored somewhere
30:54 either in private collections to look at
30:57 it or trying to see the price increase
30:59 and it we we know went to the level of
31:03 28,000 for bottle of of DRC 28 uh 2008
31:06 yes it's it's it's at that stage it's a
31:09 bit of a pity for wine lovers yes yeah
31:13 yeah too sad um okay but let's move on
31:16 so uh we several times mentioned
31:17 technology and I want to talk with you
31:19 more about the technology but not the
31:21 one that we use in the winery or in the
31:25 the vyak but uh increasingly more uh how
31:28 can we use technology uh in our wine
31:30 investment to help us we you mentioned
31:33 Venezia yeah now the blockchain is a
31:35 fantastic tool as you know before some
31:37 State started to put QR codes on their
31:39 bottles and you can go mut for example
31:40 check my bottle because they know
31:42 there's a lot of fake production of of
31:44 mut but but even know with this with
31:46 these non-fungible tokens that you can
31:49 you can align the the ownership so it's
31:51 you it's basically representing the
31:53 ownership of the bottle it can store all
31:56 the storage conditions live and then it
31:58 it keeps it as a memory and you also
32:00 track all the all the movements or all
32:02 the transactions that were before so
32:05 it's for me it's a fantastic means for
32:07 wine investors and for for wine
32:08 collectors that you have to think about
32:11 it that that you can you can be for sure
32:12 know where the bottle is that it's a
32:14 real one where it came from and how it
32:17 was stored so this this nonf funable
32:19 tokens or using the blockchain is really
32:21 an opportunity yeah for the wine
32:23 collection industry yes and it also
32:26 helps to uh protect from the uh fragant
32:29 wine yes yeah I mean if you if you buy
32:32 it from a very reputable company and and
32:35 uh and they buy directly from the chatau
32:37 and and theable token is put on the
32:38 bottle or it's created when the bottle
32:40 needes the shut out it really protects
32:44 from the provence perspective okay and
32:47 one of my last questions is uh I'm I
32:50 told you about this uh before I often
32:54 wonder whether not the uh the best days
32:57 for wine investment are gone because you
33:00 see like some of these bottles
33:01 especially burgundy especially BAU are
33:04 so expensive and then the question
33:08 arises how more expensive can it get and
33:11 like that also decreases the amount
33:13 of I don't know increase of the of the
33:16 price in the future keep in mind that
33:19 the amount of potential customers is
33:21 increasing at a very high rate because
33:24 the upper middle class in in the world
33:26 is increasing a lot and most of those
33:28 bottles are stuff that people want so if
33:32 you take muton uh now in Asia there has
33:34 been like 250 million people that have
33:36 no access to that kind of money to buy
33:39 these kind of things and after a won
33:41 back and and and a Prada shoes that's
33:43 something that they really want to have
33:46 in their hands so first second 20 years
33:48 ago when we say that bottles would be
33:50 more than 500 people thought we were
33:53 crazy this would never happen I can take
33:57 it for Vi 2007 I think at65 and then
33:59 people think it will never it will never
34:03 reach and now a bottle of 2016 is €450
34:06 on the on the retail market so I I don't
34:08 believe in the fact that it will stop at
34:10 a certain stage first there is inflation
34:12 that's the first thing and second the
34:13 fact that there's more and more
34:16 customers uh nobody's shocked anymore by
34:19 a, Price tack on certain bottles of
34:21 champagne or on certain bottles of
34:24 Bordeaux we sold shal BL to 2010 above
34:26 ,000 and it still sold I still sold some
34:28 of them it didn't stop people they
34:31 wanted to have sh BL 2010 20 years ago
34:33 people saying that the good years were
34:36 behind them and and the industry has
34:37 increased and has been very profitable
34:40 the last 20 years so I I I believe in a
34:42 very bright future for one collection
34:46 okay okay that means less for me
34:50 again less of the great wines for this
34:53 is what I do uh I invest in myself I
34:55 usually love I buy wines that I know
34:57 will become more expensive in the future
34:59 and I not be able to afford them anymore
35:02 so I buy and I keep but then drink them
35:04 and then I drink them the idea is not to
35:06 sell them just to make sure because
35:09 there are few like baros that I bought
35:11 10 years ago and there's no way I could
35:13 afford them right now no definitely and
35:16 my my my seller is a lot of that as well
35:18 is I don't buy the same wines I I buy
35:19 them to drink them it's absolutely no
35:22 investment for profit but I I the wines
35:23 I buy today are not the same wines that
35:26 I bought 10 or 20 years ago even if my
35:29 financial means increased those ones
35:30 that I bought 20 years ago are above the
35:32 price T I'm ready and I always try to
35:35 find the rising star so I find the ones
35:37 that in in 10 years time I will tell
35:39 myself you did a great investment this
35:41 wine is no it is of absolutely perfect
35:43 quality but on top of that no people
35:45 know about it and you you have them and
35:47 you when you bought them it was it was
35:50 affordable to you yeah exactly I didn't
35:53 I didn't overspend so and that's what
35:55 for for love for uh wine drinkers and
35:57 wine lovers what you should do is look
35:59 for for the rising stars of tomorrow
36:01 that's what is really exciting I agree
36:03 yeah this this guy will be a star in
36:05 yeah in 10 years yeah I have one more
36:07 question left but I wanted to ask you
36:09 before maybe there's something I didn't
36:11 ask you that you wanted to talk about
36:14 more specifically when we tackled the uh
36:17 topic of wine investment or collecting
36:20 no as as I say for me the the the first
36:22 criteria if you want to invest into wine
36:24 is first you need to love wine and and
36:27 you need to have pleasure with it uh
36:30 because it's a risky asset yeah so if
36:32 you don't it's not something secure it's
36:34 not a way to securely store some money
36:36 somewhere or save some money somewhere
36:37 so at least you need to take the
36:38 pleasure so if I always say it's the
36:41 most liquid investment because at the
36:43 end of the day if it's a poor investment
36:45 you still have a great wine you open it
36:46 and you you pour it and you drink it
36:48 with your friends and then you leave the
36:50 idea behind but of course for that you
36:52 need to love one yeah that's true so and
36:55 my last question is a question that I
36:58 ask everyone uh on my podcast is which
37:01 is one wine or one wine MTH that you
37:03 would like to debunk I have personally
37:09 an obsession is I try to buy um the
37:12 leader of a region and drink it just to
37:15 to feel the difference and I must say
37:17 that I have been often
37:19 deceived because sometimes you have
37:21 people that have a fantastic reputation
37:22 everybody tell you should drink their
37:25 wine is absolutely fantastic then you
37:27 take the means you buy the bottle you
37:29 drink it and then you think yeah it's a
37:32 very good one but it's not five times
37:35 better than his neighbor or or the other
37:37 guy or this rising star that is really
37:40 getting re reopening his mind so for me
37:43 one of the myth is it's it's like racing
37:45 you have the PO pole position but he's
37:47 not necessarily the winner at the end
37:50 okay I agree and uh off camera I will
37:53 ask you for few questions regarding some
37:57 of these Stars well uh yeah I wanted to
38:00 say thank you uh for coming actually
38:02 quite far from I know where you're
38:06 coming from and um uh thank you for uh
38:07 coming and we have been trying to
38:09 arrange this for a while now and this is
38:12 a small thank you gift that we give
38:15 everyone thank you very much yeah I will
38:18 definitely use it to harvest yes please
38:20 I'll be very happy because we need to
38:22 put a hat because of the sun it would be
38:24 perfect thank you very much thank you great
38:30 a [Music]
38:31 [Music] [Applause]
