0:11 into Cincinnati all right um thanks
0:15 everybody for coming and thank you to
0:18 everybody uh joining this world economic
0:20 Forum on mind matters all around the
0:24 world uh on the W's live stream which uh
0:27 just began I'm David rhods I'm executive
0:30 chairman of the Sky News Group group
0:33 based in London and uh a former young
0:35 Global leader of the Forum and now on
0:39 the forum's international media Council
0:42 and I'll be moderating today's session
0:44 and we've got an incredible group uh to
0:47 weigh in on the topic today which is
0:51 mental health at work so first we have
0:57 Minister Mady of uh the of South Africa
1:00 uh we have Christy Hoffman of the Union
1:03 Union based now here in Switzerland
1:07 Steve McMillan of H logic and Bill REI
1:10 of U uh of
1:13 Pinterest um we've talked a lot at the
1:16 Forum all week about
1:18 productivity and most of us that have
1:20 been in these discussions that
1:22 productivity dialogue has been about
1:25 artificial intelligence in its various
1:28 aspects but of course another aspect of
1:31 productivity impact by AI but by many
1:32 other factors that we're going to get
1:36 into today is mental health at work and
1:39 that's mind matters that's today's topic
1:43 uh The Forum estimates that some one
1:46 trillion in productivity loss is
1:50 attributable each year to a mental
1:53 health issue of some nature at work so
1:55 when you think about that one trillion
1:59 the billions of hours of uh of lost productivity
2:00 productivity
2:03 to this situation it really does Merit
2:05 the kind of discussion that we're going
2:07 to have today but we'll just jump into
2:11 that uh in all of its aspects um and
2:14 Minister mus lady I want to start with
2:17 you you look at this in a public health
2:22 context um and there are so many factors
2:26 that impact on Mental Health at work
2:28 just describe for us a bit thinking
2:30 about that public health context what
2:33 what are all of those
2:37 factors yeah thank you very much uh yes
2:41 I I know that the topic is about mental
2:43 health at work and
2:46 productivity but I I I wish to take it
2:50 as a whole because I want to argue that
2:54 a mental health at work is just a subset
2:59 of the whole mental health problems and unfortunately
3:01 unfortunately
3:02 I think we are in
3:04 trouble big
3:07 trouble mental health is a Cinderella of
3:08 Health Care
3:12 Systems when Health Care Systems get
3:15 underfunded the first to be discarded is
3:18 mental health we don't start with it in
3:20 other words we we'll deal with it if
3:23 there is money and having been in health
3:26 care for that long I know for sure this
3:29 to be a problem the World Health
3:30 Organization even called a special
3:33 conference I think it's 10 years ago
3:37 about mental health we took resolutions
3:39 we even developed the program I don't
3:42 know in other countries but in my
3:44 country I don't think we have even
3:48 implemented it this despite the fact
3:51 that the problem was recognized long
3:54 time ago let me take you
3:59 back to 1978 by the way in 1978 our was
4:01 a first year medical
4:03 student when the World Health
4:07 Organization and UNICEF cohosted the
4:10 conference on Primary Health
4:13 Care in the small town of almaa in the
4:17 former Soviet Union where they defined
4:20 what health is and can I just add so
4:23 were you you were a student at that time
4:25 you were watching that from afar
4:28 obviously yes and I was very inspired
4:30 because I believed what they were saying
4:31 which never
4:34 happened because they defined Health as
4:36 not just the absence of disease or
4:39 infirmity but the state of good
4:43 physical mental and social wellbeing and
4:46 at the moment in many parts of the world
4:49 we regard Health as just a good health
4:51 as a state of physical well-being full
4:54 stop the mental and social part we've
4:56 discarded that's what I'm saying when I
4:58 said I used to believe but it's not
5:00 happening that way
5:03 so that is the problem we're faced with
5:05 and it's getting worse because of the
5:08 stresses of life now
5:12 postco is even much much worse it's much worse
5:14 worse
5:16 postco I don't know in other countries
5:21 in my country there's a new issue now of
5:24 drugs there's a drug called crystal meth
5:27 which kids have gone to it doesn't make
5:30 them high it make them go
5:33 psychotic yes psychotic yes they go
5:36 psychotic they come you know in Chains
5:38 and all that so you're covering a few
5:40 different things here I think you when
5:41 you think about in a public health
5:44 context you're thinking about Mental
5:46 Health First just acknowledging that
5:48 that's a part of Public Health which is
5:53 relatively new it is second that there's
5:54 a whole context around what's going on
5:56 in the community if there are drugs what
5:58 are those drugs what are new what are old
6:00 old
6:02 then there's obviously being able to
6:06 fund these Health Systems I just I want
6:08 to bring in Steve for a moment because
6:10 one thing that you're talking about is
6:13 that you say right the first thing to go
6:15 are mental health programs and you
6:18 oversee a very large Public Health
6:21 scenario Steve I think people think of H
6:25 logic I know maybe I do as maybe medical
6:28 device people maybe people who help
6:31 people get a mammog
6:33 maybe people who are in that part that
6:36 the minister is describing of providing
6:40 physical resources for health but you've
6:42 been doing some work or maybe
6:45 commissioned some uh studies uh
6:47 certainly a Gallup survey recently that
6:51 tries to get at what the outlines are of
6:52 this part of the problem that's not in
6:55 the physical yeah it's exactly right and
6:57 uh I probably had my eyes open much
7:00 later in life than Minister meletti did
7:03 uh but about 5 years ago we partnered
7:04 with Gallup for those you don't know we
7:07 are very focused in uh All Women's
7:08 Health breast cancer screening cervical
7:10 cancer just about every woman's probably
7:12 had uh been touched by our products in
7:15 life but after years of discussions
7:18 around Women's Health what I realize is
7:20 we're a diagnostic company and what gets
7:23 measured gets results and there's always
7:27 been talk and so we embarked on
7:28 something that I actually hope will
7:32 become our most profound product ever
7:33 and it's one we'll never make any money
7:36 on and it's called the G holic Global
7:38 Women's Health index now we didn't know
7:40 how to do this so we went out and
7:42 partnered with Gallup who every year
7:44 does the World Poll and so what we've
7:46 been doing now for the last four years
7:48 we just unveiled the year four report at
7:51 Gold's house yesterday is getting
7:55 longitudinal data on 142 countries we're
7:57 interviewing almost 300,000 people every
8:00 year we now have data for four plus years
8:02 years
8:05 on 142
8:07 countries and when they first came back
8:09 to me with a questionnaire and this was
8:11 by partnering with somebody good you
8:14 know we're looking at cancer screenings
8:15 high blood pressure screenings all these
8:17 kind of stuff and Gallup came back and
8:19 said we need to have a major component
8:22 on mental health and we even have
8:25 questions in this index like I feel safe
8:26 walking down the street at
8:29 night now to your point you know I had
8:32 never thought really about mental health
8:35 in that way and it opened my eyes but
8:38 what we are absolutely seeing in the in
8:42 the data is some emotions like anger and
8:44 stress that you mentioned peaked during
8:47 covid and they're still elevated but
8:49 coming down but the two emotions that
8:53 are really rising and far worse today
8:57 than then in Pre in pre-co time is
9:00 sadness and worry
9:02 and when you think about particularly
9:05 anxieties worri yes yeah and you know
9:07 you think about it I was raised by a
9:10 single mom and so I probably have a
9:13 unique male uniquely male perspective on
9:16 everything that falls on women and I
9:18 think in a postco world right it's
9:19 always trying to balance everything but
9:22 there's still so much that falls on
9:24 women and I think the concerns about the
9:26 Health Care Systems you know concerns
9:28 about rights concerns about everything
9:30 have been magnified and so while the
9:33 immediate pieces of stress and anger
9:36 might be down a touch that sadness and
9:42 worry Rising is to me very concerning
9:45 very sad in and of itself but also now
9:48 we have very clear quantitative data to
9:50 show that happening and we're hoping as
9:52 we take that to each country they can
9:54 start to put action plans so these are
9:57 things happening what you're describing
10:00 and what the minister is describing in
10:01 terms of drug use these are things
10:03 happening outside the workplace that
10:06 certainly impact how people deal with
10:09 this at work and in other
10:11 contexts christe you're very focused on
10:15 work you you're talking about labor
10:18 organization and how uh
10:21 employees how employees work but some of
10:24 it is work is changing I mean we've
10:27 talked about you've talked a lot
10:29 about jobs that maybe didn't didn't
10:33 exist if not preco certainly in the time
10:37 we're describing back to the 70s and
10:40 80s what is it about work that is making
10:42 this more of an
10:45 issue well I think the single biggest
10:48 factor in work sort of started pre-co
10:51 and really uh became accelerated during
10:53 and after covid is the level of
10:55 surveillance and pressure for higher
10:58 intensity work that is made possible
11:01 through the AL rmic management tools um
11:03 that we have now so it links back to
11:06 technology um and that in general the
11:08 pace of work has gone up in so many
11:11 places but even if it hasn't people are
11:13 surveilled or monitored far more than
11:14 they ever were before and again this
11:17 accelerated during covid it causes huge
11:19 amounts of stress to many workers that's
11:21 the number one complaint in so many
11:24 workplaces is the level of monitoring
11:26 and stress that they experience from
11:29 that technology I think another uh type
11:31 of employee that's really become
11:33 prominent in our work around mental
11:35 health are the workers that work in the
11:38 data supply chain who do all the content
11:40 moderation or that could be an element
11:43 of factchecking but it's mostly like
11:46 visuals um and you know labeling and so
11:50 on in that case that work can be really
11:53 really traumatic those workers most of
11:55 whom not all are located in the global
11:58 South could be looking at hundreds and
12:01 hundreds of of videos you know all day
12:04 long 5 days a week um which show various
12:08 degrees of really harmful violent um and
12:10 emotionally impactful content whether it
12:12 could be like drowning puppies which
12:15 might be the softer choice although all
12:17 kinds of animal abuse or torture
12:20 beheadings you know violent acts and
12:22 they have to label that or you know put
12:24 it into a box or a category that's a
12:26 place where we're seeing and we work
12:28 with a lot of workers in nine countries
12:30 um and it does get media attention I
12:33 will say it's getting a lot of attention
12:35 and we're dealing with employers and
12:37 what is the answer in that scenario to
12:39 that to that type of work because it
12:41 does cause all kinds of
12:44 PTSD um people saying their lives are
12:46 changed forever even when they go home
12:48 they can't really Rel they can't sleep
12:49 they can't relate to their family it's
12:52 too traumatic so we're looking at what
12:54 can the solutions be in that scenario
12:57 it's not just enough to say if you need
12:58 psychological help we have someone
13:01 available you really have to change the
13:04 way and part of that is rotating workers
13:06 in and out of egregious content so that
13:09 nobody's doing one or more than an hour
13:12 a day for example of like the really
13:15 egregious visuals or reducing the pace
13:18 of work you know slowing it down that's
13:21 a big factor for those workers as well
13:24 um mandatory training because some
13:26 people won't come forward and say I want
13:28 mental health support or they won't be
13:29 given the time off their their job to
13:31 get that mental health support they have
13:33 to come on their own time so but really
13:35 ma making some of that mandatory and so
13:37 we're looking at a lot of different p
13:39 possible solutions some of which most of
13:42 which are not MediCal or you know it's
13:44 really about how do we change the work
13:46 so that it is less traumatic and cause
13:48 and has you know redu and reduced the
13:50 impact I want to get to Bill on a couple
13:55 of topics but we should talk about in
13:58 you mentioned the global South being a
14:00 place where many of these for instance
14:02 content moderation jobs are jobs that
14:04 didn't used to exist that could have
14:05 these kinds of
14:09 implications now exist now South Africa
14:13 has often on various issues spoken a bit
14:15 for the global South in terms of
14:19 representing what the situation is so
14:21 take us inside the communities that you
14:24 represent and how how is work Chang how
14:27 is work changing how is work different
14:29 for instance from when you were studying
14:32 medicine very different yeah
14:37 look where I started on the general
14:40 situation and say mental health work at
14:41 work is a
14:45 subset it it will be unlikely if in that
14:49 country mental health is not a big issue
14:51 in the Health Care System it will be
14:54 unlikely that you will find it better at
14:58 work because it starts with the overall
15:01 healthare system system I know in my
15:04 country it's compulsory to have a health
15:08 and wellness units people who are
15:10 trained in health
15:12 awareness in in in every government
15:14 department at least we're encouraging it
15:17 even outside government in the private
15:19 sector but when you look into what they
15:21 doing it will be mostly physical
15:23 well-being right because the overall
15:25 issue of mental wellbeing they don't
15:28 even think about it you know that's
15:30 exactly what I was saying say because
15:33 then even the number of
15:36 trained health I mean mental health care
15:40 workers will increase accordingly if if
15:42 the budget allows it but what I was
15:43 saying is well and if Steve's figures
15:45 are right we're going to need yeah
15:48 actually if you want to look for sectors
15:50 I mean we're going to need more people
15:53 sounds like to address this yes yes
15:57 definitely Bill you're a bit on sort of
15:59 both sides of the trade in the sense of
16:01 you provide what I would say just as a
16:03 user is a little bit of a happier place
16:05 online than maybe the one Christie just
16:09 described but equally you're trying to
16:13 manage a large and dispersed Workforce
16:15 that probably has different expectations
16:18 of the workplace today than when many of
16:20 us got in the workplace yesterday
16:22 certainly well a couple things I'd say
16:25 to maybe hit both sides of that you know
16:27 um there's multiple examples of talking
16:29 about well you know as we're talking
16:30 about mental health in the workplace
16:33 well people come to work with all these
16:35 pressures and you know uh sort of
16:36 circumstances that they're dealing with
16:38 outside the workplace that comes to work
16:41 as well um caregiving
16:43 responsibilities um you know uh you know
16:46 these kinds of things and so with
16:49 Pinterest we've really made uh you know
16:51 proving a more positive business model
16:54 for social media Central to our reason
16:56 for being uh you know there's a there's
16:57 a youth Mental Health crisis that's
16:58 happening and I think it's actually
17:01 brought than just youth um and a big
17:02 part of that has been fueled by social
17:05 media and the toxicity that has become
17:07 Central to uh so much of the business
17:10 model and social media so is it because
17:12 they weren't as young people prepared
17:14 for it when they confronted it or is it
17:16 just the nature of these Platforms in
17:17 general I think that it's it's it's
17:21 multifaceted um I would say that you
17:23 know if I step all the way back from it
17:27 you know rewind the clock when did
17:30 social media start to become more toxic
17:31 it's when it switched from being a
17:33 chronological feed of what our friends
17:35 posted which if you think back when it
17:38 was that most people felt like oh it's
17:39 helping democracies rise up and it's
17:40 helping us become closer to our
17:44 neighbors um and uh uh and you know
17:45 reconnect with you know long lost
17:47 connections that we hadn't seen since
17:49 high school or college or whenever and
17:52 then one day it flipped and you know I
17:54 think that flip a lot of that was about
17:58 AI being put in charge of what you see
17:59 uh in that feed instead of being a
18:00 chronological feed of what your friends
18:02 post it became a feed of what the AI
18:05 thought would make you watch the longest
18:06 uh and we talk a lot about AI you know
18:09 these last few years but it's really a
18:12 decade plus since ai's been in charge of
18:14 what you see in those feeds and the AI
18:17 figured out pretty quickly that you you
18:19 look longer at the things that are
18:21 triggering for you whatever your trigger
18:24 is um uh and you know whether it's you
18:25 know that politician that gets you
18:27 really fired up or whether it's somebody
18:30 else's fake life that you can't possibly
18:31 live up to you're you know you're
18:32 looking at somebody else's highlight
18:34 reel but comparing your everyday life to
18:36 someone else's highlight reel you know
18:39 this this effect has been in place for
18:40 you know a decade Plus in building so I
18:42 think that's really driven a lot of the
18:43 Mental Health
18:46 crisis um and so you one of the things
18:48 we want to do with Pinterest is well
18:49 prove there's a different business model
18:51 in that if sort of Engagement via
18:52 enragement and these kinds of things
18:54 have become Central to the business
18:56 model of social media in so many ways
18:58 can we prove a different business model
19:00 more one that is centered on positivity
19:02 and one that can make
19:06 measurably positive contributions to
19:08 emotional well-being and I can talk more
19:10 about it but the headline is we've
19:11 proven that's possible we certainly
19:13 haven't solved it all but we've proven
19:15 it's possible if you could tune the AI
19:16 to maximize view time you had all these
19:19 negative externalities that led to
19:21 Mental Health crisis can you tune it to
19:23 be more positive can you tune it to make
19:26 people feel better and we've proven
19:27 that's possible now there's a lot more
19:28 of that to do we've proven that's
19:31 possible um but the part of that is also
19:33 how do we create a really inspired
19:35 engaged Workforce that's also dealing
19:36 with these things and so mental health
19:38 in the workforce matters a lot to us as
19:40 well so let's come back we'll come back
19:42 to the workforce Point as uh as you've
19:45 experienced at Pinterest but I wonder if
19:50 some of it is chrisy talking about Ai
19:52 and how over time that influences the
19:54 models of what people see influences
19:56 political speech influences
19:59 everything is one thing that you're
20:02 confronting well you come into these
20:05 workforces that you're describing Try to
20:06 Make a Better
20:09 situation but is the alternative to that
20:11 well we just won't have those workers at
20:12 all we'll try to get the AI to do it in
20:14 other words is there a potential unintended
20:15 unintended
20:18 consequence uh as it relates to those I
20:20 mean groups I think in terms of content
20:23 moderation it's not really uh a little
20:27 bit some companies you I won't say names
20:29 but have been really pressured from
20:31 public pressure because exposure to this
20:33 is quite oh my God that's awful you know
20:34 they've had that exposure and they've
20:37 said well then we just won't do it and
20:39 that's not the answer because we need
20:43 content moderation we the fact that a AI
20:45 could potentially screen out some of the
20:48 more egregious and hopefully over time
20:51 that will happen but that still doesn't
20:54 I we should want that to happen I mean
20:56 that that's not off the table and I
20:58 think even the companies who are large
21:00 usually you know bpos that do all kinds
21:02 of like let's say customer service work
21:06 and content moderation data labeling um
21:07 you know they they would say well
21:09 eventually this problem will go away
21:11 because the more egregious stuff will be
21:13 you know taken out by Ai and maybe
21:15 that's true but so far that hasn't
21:18 really happened despite the promise and
21:20 the answer to say well we just won't do
21:22 it because content moderators make
21:24 mistakes this could be also you know
21:27 another argument but but guess what they
21:29 you know I think the number that's
21:31 recently been used in the media is they
21:34 20% mistakes well you could improve upon
21:36 that if the working conditions were
21:38 better but minister is there a tradeoff
21:42 particularly in communities that you
21:44 would be familiar with and have talked
21:46 about is there a trade-off between like
21:48 we need the jobs I mean some of these
21:50 jobs are hard and expose people to
21:53 difficult conditions but of course you
21:55 know we're we're not dealing in a
21:57 perfect world where there's unlimited
22:00 number of employment
22:02 options no no no I I don't understand
22:04 that very
22:06 well I'm just saying from a government
22:10 standpoint we we want employment we want
22:12 Economic Opportunity for people we're
22:14 finding people go to work the workplace
22:17 is a different place than it used to be
22:19 it imposes mental health challenges what
22:20 are the
22:23 trade-offs well at the moment that's why
22:26 it it will differ from
22:28 developed I mean from developing
22:31 countries to developed ones right in a
22:33 developing country what you want is a
22:36 job regardless of what type of a job
22:39 that comes first there's no time of it's
22:41 a bit like your hierarchy of physical
22:43 health mental like I just I want a job
22:46 in fact unemployment itself can cause
22:49 serious mental stress just just being
22:52 unemployed and and in my country that I
22:55 can assure you is what's going on
22:57 because just sing sitting and idling
22:59 there especially if you have studied
23:01 with a belief that you're going to have
23:03 a better life and you don't have a job
23:05 that in itself causes mental health
23:08 problems so if any jobs come by you
23:11 won't think about the complexities or
23:13 complications of that job you'll rush
23:15 into it if there's a problem you'll
23:18 solve it there at work that's what I'm
23:21 trying to say so it might be that in
23:23 highly developed countries what they
23:25 worry about is what type of job whether
23:27 it will induce stress and all that
23:30 that's not what is deping in lwi income
23:33 countries can I jump in here because we
23:34 represent content moderators in nine
23:36 countries most of which are not in the
23:38 global not in Europe not in the United
23:41 States and the complaints are very loud
23:43 and clear coming from these countries
23:45 that this is not a job that I could stay
23:48 in that this is you know there's no
23:50 reason this is not really a big cost
23:52 item this is about like a slight
23:55 rearrangement to work reorganizing work
23:57 this is not something that's going to
23:59 put the
24:00 clients that that are getting this work
24:02 done you know the big tech companies you
24:04 know it's not harming their bottom line
24:06 to make this work acceptable I mean this
24:08 is a human right to have a health and
24:12 safety health and I understand that
24:13 there are different levels trigger
24:15 points you know depending on how
24:17 desperately you want the job but it is
24:19 still a big complaint and it doesn't
24:22 need to be bill you have I think it's
24:25 fair to say a developed World Workforce
24:27 what are their what are their
24:30 expectations yeah so you know a few
24:33 things I'd say you know as as we've you
24:35 know really over the last two and a half
24:38 years Revitalize the company with you
24:40 know uh you know emotional well-being
24:43 you know a more positive uh business
24:44 model for social media at the at the
24:46 core of our reason for being we've made
24:47 a lot of progress on that but a
24:49 revitalized Workforce has been a big
24:50 part of that so some of the things that
24:52 we have done there you know we think
24:54 about future of work you know there's a
24:56 few things we think about one um you
24:59 know you know there needs to be flexib
25:01 right um uh and come back and talk about
25:03 we done with our pimplex program that
25:05 has really created flexible work
25:08 Arrangements that really helps for you
25:09 know more people to be able to engage
25:11 more the best and brightest to be able
25:13 to engage from all different backgrounds
25:14 um you know providing the flexibility
25:17 needed for uh those who are caregivers
25:20 um which by the way disproportionate um
25:22 disproportionately you see you know
25:24 women and underrepresented groups carry
25:28 disproportionate amounts of caregiving
25:31 um and so providing better flexibility
25:33 has also let us be more attractive to a
25:35 more diverse Workforce which has
25:37 actually you know been part of you know
25:40 we believe deeply part of our
25:42 reacceleration as a business and our our
25:43 Workforce has been delivering really
25:47 great results so flexibility is one um
25:49 second I would say is that future
25:50 oriented people want to see career
25:52 growth and Pathways and you know how
25:53 there's a future for their job and I
25:55 think a lot of discussions around AI
25:57 talk about well jobs are going to go
26:01 away versus well you know AI can
26:04 actually create a lot of new ways to do
26:05 really interesting new things and so
26:06 making sure there's a future orientation
26:10 for career growth and then thirdly uh I
26:11 would say is just you know it needs to
26:14 be fulfilling and you know fulfilling
26:15 can happen in lots of different ways but
26:17 I think people want to work on something
26:19 that matters and there's lots of
26:20 different ways to find things that
26:23 people can connect with but you know we
26:26 saw that as we made um you know
26:27 positivity Central to our reason for being
26:28 being
26:30 and really connected that with a bigger
26:34 purpose that's really you know I think
26:36 enlivened our Workforce even more that
26:37 they feel like they're working on
26:39 something that really matters and doing
26:40 something that has impact far beyond our
26:42 walls but I think you know that can be
26:44 at any organization so if you can have
26:47 flexibility you know future orientation
26:49 and fulfillment these things can really
26:52 drive real impact um and particularly
26:53 this one on flexibility where I think
26:56 there's a there's a change in Direction
26:57 there particularly around like forced
26:59 mandates back to office and things like
27:03 that and you know we're seeing that as
27:05 we've provided flexibility one it's been
27:07 a great attractor of talent particularly
27:11 of diverse talent but it's also driving
27:13 collaboration as well we see that those
27:16 that take advantage of our penflex
27:18 program are disproportionately engaged
27:19 in collaborative work which is
27:20 completely counter to the narrative that
27:21 you can't collaborate if you're not in
27:23 person but we do have a mixed model
27:25 there's some in person some remote um
27:27 now Minister mood will lady would remind
27:30 you that in all that developed roal
27:33 context still nothing competes for many
27:36 people with just having a job at all and
27:38 I think that's that's your point about
27:41 the the the imposed costs of just
27:44 unemployment on Mental Health in
27:47 Security in various ways yes that's what
27:50 I'm saying and and I think maybe we we
27:51 are agreeing but just at different
27:54 levels because my argument is
27:57 unemployment itself yeah is a big big stressor
27:58 stressor
28:02 and that you'll find more of that in a
28:05 developing country now once you get that
28:07 job is then that all
28:11 these problems come in to see whether
28:13 this is the type of job I've want
28:15 whether I've got any options which I can
28:18 study it comes later well one important
28:21 factor in that Steve do the numbers show
28:22 either your numbers that you're talking
28:26 about today I would think maybe in both
28:29 contexts that women are more risk to
28:33 these factors yes yes consistently you
28:35 know what's also interesting is we we
28:37 interview men in a lot of these things
28:38 and you get differences particular
28:41 things like U uh domestic violence and
28:44 of course the perception of men versus
28:47 women in so many of these areas is as to
28:50 whether it's not as big of an issue um
28:54 so you do see consistently on so many of
28:57 the mental health aspects women are
29:01 seeing it is a bigger deal than men and
29:02 I think
29:06 ultimately probably is a head notter to
29:08 many people but it's nice to have the
29:11 day I mean I think the uh the worry
29:15 index is up to 42% of all women in the
29:17 world and that's are saying they
29:22 experience significant periods of worry
29:24 every day and the number and the latest
29:27 one for sadness and again the question
29:30 is written you know do you experience
29:34 this for significant parts of a day is
29:37 up to 30% for women chrisy who do people
29:39 in the workforce whether there's a
29:43 gender divide or not who do they think
29:46 it's the respons their responsibility to
29:48 solve these
29:52 problems is that companies is that is
29:54 that governments who is it I mean I I I
29:57 think if if people identify that they
29:59 have a work related problem they expect
30:01 their employer to help them solve it or
30:03 they blame their their employer um you
30:06 know it it could be different sources of
30:09 anxiety or depression but you know at
30:12 the end of the day for work related um
30:14 mental health issues it is on the
30:16 employer to figure out some kind of
30:19 solution and I think that employers also
30:21 need to identify that as I think someone
30:24 said at the early stages it's a it's an
30:27 economic issue for employers the deoe
30:30 did it do did a study that found for
30:33 every $1 invested in mental health
30:37 there's a $5 Improvement in attendance
30:39 um and you know productivity so I think
30:43 it's really not just a question of um PE
30:44 workers have problems and they expect
30:46 their employers to fix it it's in the
30:48 employer's interest to create a work
30:50 environment that addresses you need some
30:52 measurement yeah yeah and I I would
30:54 strongly agree with that the thing I
30:55 would add is that I think while an
30:58 employer has you know both a
31:00 responsibility in some ways as well as a
31:02 real benefit if you can address these
31:05 things um I also think though you have
31:06 to start with the recognition that you
31:09 don't have all the answers and engage
31:10 deeply with communities that are
31:12 affected to find those answers so some
31:15 examples that I would give um you have a
31:17 caregivers group and so I talked about
31:19 some of what we've done around you know
31:21 flex flexible work Arrangements that you
31:23 know um are helping those that carry you
31:26 know caregiving uh burdens um or
31:28 caregiving responsibilities um but we've
31:30 also you know heard through that you
31:31 know ways that we can expand our
31:33 benefits programs that would be helpful
31:35 uh for caregivers but we've actually
31:38 done this across as we've driven uh you
31:40 know greater inclusion in our Workforce
31:42 we have what we call P inclusion groups
31:43 that you know are groups of employees
31:46 that can come together that you know are
31:48 you know uh you know share similarities
31:50 and things that they're facing and can
31:52 talk about not only what they're facing
31:55 but actually creates Forum to talk about
31:57 you know how can we how can we help to
31:58 solve these things
32:00 and that's a forum where sort of folks
32:02 can come together to talk about you know
32:05 real issues but also to talk about well
32:06 how can we work together to make
32:07 progress on those issues because we
32:09 don't have all the answers we need to
32:11 engage deeply with communities that do
32:14 even the work I was mentioning on um you
32:16 know our our our mental health programs
32:18 um you know not just for our Workforce
32:20 but you know across those that that use
32:23 our platform uh We've engaged deeply
32:25 with those that are in the mental health
32:27 community and that's actually led to a
32:30 lot of some of them here in the room um
32:31 uh you that has actually led to a lot of
32:33 the insights that have informed actions
32:35 that we have taken so I think you know
32:36 one you've got to start with
32:38 acknowledging there is a mental health
32:41 crisis that's happening you know two how
32:43 do you engage you know with with you
32:45 know lots of folks that are trying to
32:46 solve this and coming with different
32:48 angles but then three how do we think
32:49 about different effects on different
32:51 communities and different parts of the
32:52 population and different answers we
32:54 might need for different parts of the
32:55 population different communities but I
32:56 think you have to engage deeply with
32:58 those communities to get those answers
33:00 because employers don't have all of them
33:02 but we can participate in them if we if
33:03 we engage more closely with those
33:07 communities yeah I just going to mention
33:09 a paradox and it's a question that's
33:11 I've had kind of looking through the
33:14 data for us maybe all to think about but
33:17 the the Paradox that I'm finding is as
33:19 particularly in more developed markets
33:21 where we've gone to a lot of remote work
33:23 and we're a company that's actually just
33:25 been flexible I think we were one of the
33:27 most flexible companies preco we're
33:30 probably considered less flexible now we
33:32 never did any mandates of anything
33:35 around work and office or anything else
33:36 but what I'm finding very interesting
33:39 and my children are 23 to 34 so if you
33:42 think in in that group is so many folks
33:46 who say they want to work
33:49 remotely but I worry are getting
33:52 incredibly lonely they're feeling like
33:54 they're connected and they're saying yes
33:56 and I think the loneliness is feeding
33:59 into the sadness worry in a weird in a
34:00 profound way and I think about it this
34:04 is too simple drug use and other other
34:06 bad yeah it's way too simple analogy but
34:07 if you ask kids you know they they want
34:10 sugar right they want candy bars okay
34:13 well I want to work from home but it
34:17 might not be the best for you right like
34:20 eating healthy and so there's you know
34:24 is there some somewhere in between that
34:26 you know I'm not saying work in the
34:29 office all the time but I think complete
34:31 remote work I worry is actually
34:33 extending this we don't have that in the
34:36 data but it was a question that kind of
34:39 jumped into my head we've got about 10
34:41 minutes we and I want everybody to get a
34:44 chance to sum up but I also sense that
34:46 we've got a little bit of vibration in
34:48 the room of people who want to put
34:51 questions to uh our panel today and so
34:52 we should we should get to some of those
34:56 including two in the front row so you
34:59 guys decide who wants to go first great
35:02 thanks and oh please just uh also for
35:04 the benefit of the live stream just
35:06 identify yourself and however you want
35:08 to uh mention your affiliation
35:10 absolutely so my name is Alicia London
35:12 I'm the CEO at prospa Global we
35:14 exclusively work on mental health
35:16 strategies for companies investors
35:18 philanthropists but I'm also a young
35:21 Global leader so great to see other y's
35:24 in the room um the question I wanted to
35:27 ask well just uh for some context I I'm
35:30 often approached by CEO's leadership
35:32 with a question of I just don't know
35:35 what to do about this it's a really
35:37 complex issue I I have to say Pinterest
35:39 has been extraordinary and really deeply
35:41 engaging with communities yeah and
35:45 really understanding this um and and
35:47 that's quite rare so most leadership
35:49 will come and say where do I start
35:51 there's a list of a hundred things I
35:53 think even some Advocates are you know
35:55 and I come previously from an advocacy
35:57 World wanting to do the hundred things
35:59 and we'll rate you up well um so one of
36:01 the things we've done is created an
36:03 audit assessment a diagnostic for
36:05 companies based in
36:07 countries um and different Industries
36:09 around where the biggest risks and
36:10 opportunities are to help narrow that
36:13 down um do you think that kind of thing
36:14 is helpful so we can measure it properly
36:16 and give baselines are there other tools
36:18 that would be helpful um would be great
36:20 to hear as As Leaders what would be
36:22 helpful for you and then just one thing
36:24 I wanted to share because you brought up
36:26 my favorite current topic on
36:28 expectations one of our assessments we
36:30 see this quite a lot and we just pulled
36:35 us um workers in in December and found
36:38 that 50% of employees in the US believed
36:40 it's a company's responsibility to cause
36:42 them no
36:46 stress no stress and and so actually I
36:47 think there's a real challenge there for
36:50 Business Leaders to un not just meet
36:52 expectations but not just maybe give the
36:56 sugar um analogy um is that a challenge
36:58 it obviously varies both region um how
37:01 do we reset healthy psychological
37:03 contracts between workers and employees
37:05 in a way that does bring the benefits
37:06 we're looking for all right two
37:09 questions there who wants to
37:13 start I mean I I can say we also have an
37:15 assessment tool that we would recommend
37:18 to our Union shop stewards and so on or
37:21 to you know unions that are coping with
37:25 problems and and you know one clear
37:27 measure is just how many people are
37:29 absent due to burnout or some other work
37:32 rated stress and I think that that's an
37:35 indicator um but there's also um some
37:38 basic factors such as how precarious is
37:40 the job and this goes back to your point
37:43 that not having a job is incredibly
37:45 stressful so if you're working in an
37:47 environment where you're on a two-month
37:50 contract or you know it's not what you
37:52 would consider to be a secure job
37:54 there's a lot of workplace changes
37:56 taking place and you're not involved in
37:57 it you're not part of the discussion I
37:59 mean we would have an assessment tool I
38:01 think that's you know and these were the
38:03 elements that we would be looking at
38:05 that would normally stress out any
38:07 worker and then some would react
38:09 differently than others so I I think
38:12 that's a a fair a fair point and as to
38:15 your point about expectations which I
38:17 think is really more closely identified
38:20 with younger workers and you know I also
38:22 have a 27 yearold and a 30-year-old at
38:24 home and I don't know what to say to
38:26 that because I do really believe that
38:28 it's a problem and this idea that you've
38:30 grown up thinking work is a place of
38:32 meaning and you know but nobody wants to
38:35 do work that's horrible you know I I
38:37 that's that's a longer conversation I
38:39 think everybody's dealing with across
38:43 Generations that that um you know I I
38:44 could tell you some of the things that I
38:47 say to my too but I wouldn't want to say
38:48 it in this room
38:50 probably they might be watching they
38:54 might be watching and you know no I mean
38:55 just I don't have that much patience for
38:58 it but yeah let's uh let's come here so
39:00 my name is deani pavar I'm a global
39:03 shaper from baramati India and I
39:05 represent the grassroot communities
39:07 because our Hub is the first rural hub
39:10 from India my question is a mix of what
39:13 he said that um unemployment is the
39:15 biggest concern in terms of mental
39:18 health and also I would like to uh talk
39:20 about Pinterest as well so I just want
39:23 to correlate both of these things when I
39:25 talk about grassroot communities there
39:27 are so many self-help groups so many
39:30 people uh trying to find Opportunities
39:32 to grow and kind of reinvent the things
39:35 which they do so uh in terms of
39:37 unemployment and seeking Inspirations
39:40 from Pinterest how can we bridge the gap
39:42 between because Pinterest is uh
39:45 perceived as very Urban platform right
39:48 but uh it has such an incredible way of
39:51 inspiring people to start new things
39:54 right and how can it be implemented in
39:56 Grassroots because it will solve
39:58 unemployment issues with happen over
40:01 there yeah um well thank you um and
40:02 that's quite intentional on our part
40:04 that we I talked about not tuning just
40:07 for maximizing view time and tuning for
40:09 positivity part of what we found that
40:11 leads to positivity is if you can
40:14 actually help people to fulfill intent
40:17 to go find ways to go take action in the
40:19 real world to do something and so I
40:22 think a lot of these uh feelings of you
40:25 know hopelessness and sadness are much
40:29 more profound when there's you know when
40:30 you feel like it's sort of happening to
40:32 you and there's nothing that you can do
40:35 and so one of the things we see is that
40:36 um you know as we've looked at the
40:38 rising rates of anxiety and depression
40:40 and all these things that and we look at
40:42 tuning for positivity well so much of
40:44 that is actually helping people engage
40:46 in something that's going to be a
40:47 productive outcome for them and it
40:49 almost doesn't matter what is that
40:50 productive outcome you can choose your
40:53 own creative Endeavor but finding
40:55 something that has a productive outcome
40:58 is actually a great Rel belief of stress
40:59 and and so part of what we do on our
41:02 platform is try to help people get from
41:04 inspiration to action ability because we
41:07 see that that action again whatever it
41:10 is for for you actually goes from the
41:12 feeling of hopelessness and things
41:15 happening to you to I'm doing something
41:16 and even if that something isn't
41:19 necessarily self-help directly but I'm
41:21 just doing something that is worthwhile
41:23 that makes me feel good whether it's
41:24 figuring out how to put together that
41:25 outfit that's going to make me walk a
41:28 little taller or how I'm going to you
41:29 know the meal I'm going to prepare to
41:31 bring my family and friends together and
41:33 what that's going to mean or just how I
41:35 redo the room so it's a better place to
41:37 get the people I love to gather um these
41:39 are all just very productive outlets and
41:42 so I think that is um you know so much
41:45 of our sort of social media content
41:47 consumption has been around view time
41:49 maximization you know we're looking at
41:50 how do we create outcomes in the real
41:52 world so that people are getting real
41:54 world connection real world actions and
41:56 these things we do see and and and
41:57 there's lots of research on this
42:01 these things do lead to more feelings of
42:03 positivity because it's it's it's active
42:05 and productive versus sort of sitting
42:06 back and feeling that things are
42:07 happening to you we may have time for
42:10 one more if we have one more right by
42:13 the microphone than um my name is ien
42:15 and I'm from Indonesia I work in
42:18 education uh I heard that we talk about
42:21 uh social media as one of the the the
42:24 the what the trigger or the you know of
42:26 this all mental mental health problem
42:28 but is there a bigger problem in the
42:31 younger generation such as mindset I
42:33 mean I heard that uh someone said that
42:35 uh I think you mentioned about employees
42:40 saying that they they expect a uh work
42:42 that is not stressful and I think that
42:44 will make it even more stressful in my
42:46 opinion okay so is there a bigger
42:48 problem than that which is the mindset
42:51 and if so uh being in education I think
42:53 I want to ask how do we help this uh
42:55 prepare this younger generation they
42:57 will face more challenges in the you
43:00 know ahead maybe not social media but
43:02 whatever but how do we prepare them so
43:04 that they're more resilient and not fall
43:08 into the Trap or the pathway of that
43:10 mental health problem eventually
43:11 Minister I'm going to put you on the
43:14 spot because you have a very
43:18 young population by comparison certainly
43:22 with many uh many of the other uh States
43:24 represented and so how do you see how do
43:26 you see that are their expectations
43:28 different than for instance when you
43:31 went off to medical school oh
43:35 absolutely the kids are not like us
43:38 absolutely and and yes and and when you
43:41 tell them about resilience and they tell
43:44 you that was during your time that was
43:47 yes they want everything rolling in on a
43:50 silver plot definitely I mean I discuss
43:52 these things with my kids and tell them
43:55 how you know and they tell you that that
43:58 was during your time now
44:01 your father was poor and doing that to
44:05 you and you are rich now and you can
44:08 offer me everything I want so we we not
44:11 the same and and I'm worried I see a lot
44:15 of energy drinks used by our kids almost
44:18 on a daily basis it worries me because I
44:21 don't think they're healthy so it is
44:24 definitely a generational problem I I
44:27 don't have answers on on how yeah
44:31 because even now during my time when I
44:34 was a young doctor you know you know not
44:36 very young but at the age of 26 I could
44:40 work for many hours on end in a rural
44:42 hospital with no other doctor it doesn't
44:46 happen now you find a hospital with many
44:48 many young doctors but complaining of
44:50 overwork and blaming government this
44:53 government is useless and all that and
44:55 you can't even tell them I used to work
44:59 for 16 hours in a La nonstop and I
45:01 thought it was normal and I think it
45:03 developed me believe you me there's no
45:06 youngster who will tolerate that now so
45:10 you know no way you know Bill Steve
45:14 Christie Minister um yeah my day job I'm
45:16 a journalist I think our headline is the
45:18 kids are not like us
45:21 right if I was right in the but thank
45:23 you all for these insights thanks
45:25 everybody for participating in the
45:29 conversation uh the hashtag is we 25 and
45:30 uh thank you for coming today thank you
45:33 for watching [Applause]
