This content is an interview with Daniela Mestnik Young, a survivor of the Children of God cult, discussing her upbringing, the cult's practices, and her insights into the nature of cults. It highlights the extreme control, manipulation, and abuse inherent in such groups, using her personal experiences as a case study.
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Oh,
I grew up in cult.
Little children, it is the last time. I
SAID, LITTLE CHILDREN, it is the last
time. And as you have heard, the AC
shall come AC.
>> Who is he?
>> Hey, the antichrist. Even now the AC
What's up? This is Vice Culture Club.
I'm your host, Jackson Garrett. Uh some
interesting things going on at Vice this
week. We've got this really interesting
documentary series called Kids Fight. Uh
it's about MMA fighters in Pakistan. Uh
there's a lot of poverty, kids on the
streets, but they're finding like uh a
place to be in MMA gyms. Uh if you've
heard of like leave your kid in Dagistan
for 2 or 3 years, maybe it'll be
Pakistan next. You might see something
interesting coming out of Pakistan in
the future. Uh on the written side, uh
I've been told to say there is an
interesting article out there about
dogging in LA. Uh apparently there's
like goths, some ginzy goths or
something each other outside and
we did some sort of expose on that. Uh
check it out. I'm going to check it out
as well. Uh it seems interesting. Uh
today we have on a really cool guest uh
on Vice Culture Club, Daniela Mestnik
Young. She wrote this great book. It's a
memoir uh a couple years ago called
Uncultured. Uh it's about her time in
the Children of God cult growing up in
that and then also her time in the US
military comparing the two. And man,
there's some fascinating stuff on here.
We're going to talk about it today. She
also is coming out with a new book. If
you've ever asked yourself, what is a
cult? What makes it different from
religions? what makes it different from
uh any other movement, companies, uh
political movements. Check out this
book, The Cultting of America. She has a
10-part framework in it to describe
exactly what a cult is. Uh we're going
to ask her about it today. She's also
known as the knitting cult lady on
social media, and she is here knitting,
which is really interesting and fun. So,
thanks for coming on, Daniela.
>> Thanks for having me.
>> A big reason we wanted to talk to her
was I I put out a poll on uh Vice's
social media. I said, "Do you know
anyone in a cult?" 13% of you said yes,
a close friend or family. 13% of you
said yes, an acquaintance. A couple more
said not sure. Most of you said no. The
next one was, do you think Colts are on
the rise over the last decade? And 54%
of you said yes, 22% no, and 24% about
the same. So clearly you guys have been
touched by Colts, several of you, and
are interested and think it's on the
rise. So I want to bring on a cult
expert. And before we start talking
about her expertise, I want to talk
about her upbringing a bit because
that's a huge part of like what got you
to this point and the cult you were
raised in was the children of God cult.
Can you tell us about it?
>> Yeah, so the children of God was started
in 1968 which was kind of our last era
of cults or last well cult I like to
call it. And David Berg was kind of a
failed preacher, successful alcoholic.
And he went on the beaches of California
just recruiting people for his cult,
which he said was about faith, love, and
Jesus. And he was the prophet of God,
and we were going to win the world for
the end of days. I describe it as it
turned into, you know, religious
prostitution and pedophilia and a
constant preparation for the apocalypse.
It's uh it got pretty tough there. I
read your memoir. It was uh pretty
brutal at times. Uh you know, it's you
give a framework later on of like what
is like a capital C cult and the
Children of God's like very much up
there as like one of the ones that
people think of in their mind as as like
some of the worst cults out there. Uh
can you tell people like what the
hierarchy was like? What are like the
most known traits of this cult? I mean,
we were most famous for in in the 80s.
It was in Time magazine. It was such
published to make German magazine and it
was what I call this herum photo, which
is this old guy with a beard, 13
scantily clad women saying calling it a
sex cult because they were absolutely
using religious prostitution. And then
Time magazine picked that up and they
became like pretty famous around the
world for that. Then they would go on to
do what I think is maybe the most
successful rebranding outside of the
Mormons because in the '9s we would
perform twice at the White House and
performed for president in Brazil, write
a marching song for Marcos in the Philippines.
Philippines.
And so we went from being this religious
prostitution organization to an
entertainment organization. And that's
really the world I grew up in was we
were, you know, 7,000 singing, dancing, performing
performing
little little street kids and beggars
for God. And they just trafficked us all
around the world doing that.
>> I'm shocked to hear uh you guys
performed with the president, especially
since so much of the scandal came out in
the 80s, right? Like which president was
it? Was it Clinton?
>> It was Bush that we Bush were twice. I
was not one of them, but one of my
siblings was
>> that's crazy. I uh I don't like you were
talking briefly about that they called
it flirty fishing, right? Like that was
like one of the early like big scandals.
What is flirty fishing?
>> So in the Bible there's a verse in
Matthew where he says, "I will make you
fishers of men." And so this was the
play on words that he used and we're
going to hang out these beautiful
attractive women to bring in money and
converts for God. And you know this
thing that cults do where they give
serious topics, very casual names,
flirty fishing while they get people
used to it. Um, you know, eventually
call them hookers for Christ. Like they
they really went into it. Um,
interestingly enough, I don't know if
you heard of the orgasm cults that was
here in New York City, but they were
pretty much doing straight up
prostitution. Very children of God style
as well. Well, I I because I read your
memoir. I know about the children of God
now, but please tell me about Thor
orcasm cult because I I wanted I was
going to wait till your begger other
cult stuff, but I want to hear it now.
>> Nicole Dayon and her chief skinny white
woman just got sentenced to to time in
prison for trafficking. But she
essentially started a group that was all
about focusing on women's orgasms and
having orgasms and turned it into what
cults always are, which is organized
crime. Cults are always about labor. And
one of the things I find, especially
with cults that have the sex thing, is
people get stopped at the what, right?
Right. So, children of God, people like
you believed in in pedophilia. And they
can't push past that to understand what
it actually was, which is we were just
child slaves in in child labor around
the world.
>> You mentioned the sex part. That seems
to be another very unique view. Uh you
know, there's all kinds of cults out
there with different views on sex. Some
of them try to hide it. Some of them are
more public with it. Children of God.
What were the views like? You know, it's
also important to understand that this
the context of this was the early 70s,
late60s when everyone in the world or at
least sorry, everyone in America was
questioning the sexual mores at the time
and what is a teenager versus an adult,
right? like all of this stuff was in the
culture and then these 10,000 people
just kind of dropped out of the culture
and completely isolated and continued to
like really go down a bad road. But it
basically his theory was I I would say
sex was his unique value proposition,
right? So he took regular
evangelicalism's control of sex and he
flipped it and he called it free love
and I call it forced polyamory and they
had schedules who was sleeping with who
that night in these big communes of 200
people and very quickly did the children
get brought into it and by children I
mean my 12-year-old mother on her
birthday toasted with a glass of wine by
her father and and had the cult aunties
ask her to make a list of which of the
men she would like to share with which
was yet another euphemism for in this
case rape of course
>> before we get into the the pedophilia
part of it what were the what was it
like as an adult in the children of god
what was there like the free love idea
how did it work
>> you know it's interesting actually when
they started they were very abstinent
and there was no sex at all which is I
believe another part of the
indoctrination and the breaking you down
and then very quickly paired people off
and there was like a whole bunch of you
wouldn't call them forced marriages but
you know the leader told you to be
together types of marriages and then
it just you were married to someone and
we did have nuclear families but you
were not allowed to be only with one
person and so it was very regular label
laborheavy communal living during the
days and then at nights it was usually
who are you pairing off with, who are
you going to sleep with? There were lots
of interesting parties as I I put in the
book. Um, and I I think the reality is
that for most men it probably wasn't terrible.
terrible.
Um, and as other cult experts have said,
women and children tend to almost always
be slave labor in cults. And that's
really what it was, I think, in addition
to having as many babies as you possibly
could, cuz after the recruiting of the
70s, that really became their main way
to produce more cult members.
>> Tell me about your mother, cuz you you
were you didn't join the cult
voluntarily. You were born into it, right?
right?
>> I did not join and my mother did not
join either. So my grandfather joined
actually in I believe it was 1970 and he
had a bad LSD trip where he met Satan
and the next day he was sitting in a
park with his head in his hands as one
does after they meet Satan and up came,
you know, four singing, smiling, dancing
children of God and off he went with
them. recently graduated CPA and brought
in his 18-year-old girlfriend from Texas
and he pretty quickly moved up to become
one of the main finance people. And so
my mother would become one of the first
children actually born into the group
again at a time when
it was very sort of undecided what the
rules were. The kids were just going to
be treated like little grown-ups in this
communal life. Um, that's so my mom came
into the picture and
15 years and two months later I would be born.
born.
>> 15 years later because that's how old
your mother was when she had you, right? >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> Like I I was a little, you know, from
reading the book I was a little confused
sometimes on like who your dad was, who
your mom was. I kept hearing aunts and
uncles, aunties and uncles. Like was
there a lot of confusion about like who
was who because of all the free love
because of the different trading and
thing go going on? So, I wouldn't say it
was confusing when that's all you know.
You know, that's just your life and you
you know, one of the things about cult
kids is we're really good at group
dynamics, I think, because we've been
managing and dealing with adults since
we were very, very young. Uh, it was
interesting when we were writing the
book and everyone else said the number
of people both in the commune and in the
military was overwhelming because I was
like, "Yes, [laughter]
that's what it is." Um what became
interesting for me was they didn't tell
me who my father was. So for the first
12 years I thought one person was my
father and then I got told somebody else
was my father and that came with a whole
bunch of new siblings which did come for
me specifically being a third generation
with the problem of we were getting
incestuous very very quickly and
actually oh yeah and this is because
after they stopped the flirty fishing
which was because of AIDS they went very
insular And the worst crime you could
commit was sleeping with someone who was
not in the family. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> So became very insular. And actually
during one court case in London, a judge
had them trace out the family trees. And
what they found was like in the third
generation, you're fine, but if you get
into the fourth generation, you're going
to start having the genetics problems
and the incest problems that you see in
in, you know, historically very small
and uh communities that limit themselves.
themselves.
>> Was was incest like allowed? Was that
like I mean there was another
>> No, no, I mean
that's so so here's part of the problem
and you know the stereotype with cults
almost always is that it started off
good and it got bad. In reality, David
Berg was already abusing his daughters.
He had already made both of his sons let
him have sex with their wives in front
of them. and he would go on to abuse his
his own future daughters. His
granddaughter was one of his worst
victims. So, was there incest?
Absolutely. Was it in any way allowed as
part of our theory? No. Um, and that was
kind of a big thing for me as I was
becoming a teenager and realizing like
my dad is an important guy. I have no
idea how many of these people are my
siblings and you know what am I going to
do if I grow up here?
>> The other like I'm trying to like etch
out like what was allowed and what
wasn't because incest was not allowed
but pedophilia pedophilia was right.
That was like part of the deal for so
long. [sighs and gasps]
>> I mean it really depends on who you ask
right because they will say of course
not. It never was. But it absolutely was
a big part of the deal. And absolutely
when so so when David Berg started the
flirty fishing, he started with his own
wife, right? As abusive men will do,
lending her out to people. She gets
pregnant. They invent the category Jesus
babies, which is what they called the
children that the the hooking brought
in. And so his own stepson is born as a
Jesus baby and he then decides he is
going to raise him as a sexually
liberated child. Right? The concept that
there's nothing wrong with sex. Sex is
natural. So we're just going to
introduce it to him from birth.
And then they proceeded to create what
has been called the worst cult artifact
of all times, which was a 762page
illustrated with photos
basically manual of pedophilia.
And so
like depending on where you were, I
think in the hierarchy, it got much
worse and much darker the closer you got
to the leadership. And people will
definitely maintain that it was never
part of the doctrine.
I I like to stand firm on they all read
the Davidito book and stayed.
>> That's what it was called Davidito.
>> The Davidito book cuz his name was
Davidito. Okay.
>> Which was little David.
>> Okay. And to back it up a little bit,
David Berg, you've mentioned David Berg
a couple times. He was the leader. He
went by a bunch of different names,
right? Like what was the hierarchy like?
>> So it was him and he had four children
and a wife when he started it, right? So
his they were all the leaders and then
the hierarchy was very very militaristic
and you know he was I believe briefly in
military training and then washed out
but definitely brought on some military
officers very early on as cults are are
want to do and they made this very
hierarchical structure. So I mean it was
developing for a long time but when I
was growing up in the early '9s you know
we were living in communes of 100 150
people sometimes you know children were
in dorms like everything was almost like
you might you know be in corporate
America right like everyone had someone
they reported to had someone they
reported to who had someone they
reported to but also the common cult
leader tactic of fire everyone all the
time keep them on their toes. was, you
know, he would ultimately fire all four
of his children, push him out of
leadership, and just constantly
constantly interchanging people. Some of
the only two people I felt like who kept
their jobs the whole time, both my
father and my grandfather who handled
the money.
>> Okay. And so that's what kind of made
them special was the money part. Did
that give you like special treatment or
them special treatment? I guess
>> I mean I've been told that my biological
father was the only person who ever knew
like where all the money came and where
all the money went and he was
given access to
you know young young teenagers.
>> Where was David Berg before he created
this and like why did people allow him
to do this and believe it? That's what I
think blows so many people's mind is
like how does this happen? And how do so
many people fall under the spell of like
a charismatic leader like him?
>> You know, it seems like cult leaders are
almost always raised by cult leaders as
well. And he was the child of a 1930s
revivalist woman preacher who was very
very abusive to him in her own ways.
Obviously not justifying anything, but
um you know he came up with some
craziness. So he would go off and as an
adult tried to be a pastor um in a
organization called Christian Missionary
Alliance which is also definitely a cult
um that he got kicked out of for his
beliefs and the things he was trying to
espouse and it just you know I think he
just saw what was happening in the
late60s and was like this is my moment
and in fact like he was better at it
than a a lot of the other people who
were already doing it at the time. So,
he would go in and like kind of take
people's cults. He would like go in to
join up with them, but then ultimately,
you know, the children of God just had
so much energy and so much performing
and fun and power that people would be
like, "Oh, I want to go join these guys."
guys."
>> From like what I read from you and and
different places online, a big part of
their deal was just that they were like
co-opting the hippie movement a bit.
They had the good music. They had young
people. They had good-looking people. It
was hip and cool to be like in this.
People were looking for things.
>> And they would lie about the leader,
too. You know, I was talking to So, my
my grandmother who joined the
18-year-old, you know, her mother was so
thrilled to have her 18-year-old
troublesome daughter taken off her hands
by these lovely Jesus people that she
gave them a house, which is one of their
like first bases in in Texas. And so,
you know, my family would get even more
importance. Anyway, I recently talked to
someone who lived in that house and he
said he was involved with the children
of God for probably three months before
they were like, "Hey, so we have this
leader guy." And you know, this is one
of the things that I bring up a lot,
especially with regards to the military
being a cult, is everyone thinks you
know what you're doing when you sign up,
and you just don't. And there's a lot
of, you know, especially with children
of God, built-in deception around
getting you into this pipeline. And it
was a six months process till you, I
think, really actually kind of knew what
you signed up for. And at this point,
you're you're in it.
>> They had a bunch of different names,
too, right? He wasn't just known as
David Berg. There was also like some
weird stuff about like he wasn't allowed
to be seen or was or was or
>> so. So he came up with a whole bunch of
different names. And that's common for
cult leaders for two reasons. Building
their own mythology. So they have to
like connect themselves to something. So
in his case it was the Bible. So he was
Moses. He was King David. He was all of
these biblical figures. Um that's also
how they explain their fail their prior
failure, right? It's like well God chose
King David even though he was a terrible
horrible person. He did these things
through him. And so um he then
okay so they take all these names to
give themselves validity right so in his
case it was Bible names you see it with
a lot of yoga gurus you know they'll
adopt these names but they'll also use
the familial language so he immediately
had everyone calling him dad uh which
was easy cuz his kids were the ones
recruiting and then when I was growing
up we called him grandpa. That's all we
ever called him. Also, he was paying
attention to all of the cults getting in
trouble in the 70s and suddenly God
wanted us to go live all over the world
and everyone had to change their names
and he from that point on lived in
hiding and nobody was allowed to see
him. So growing up like we every part of
our lives was dictated by this man
grandpa and all we ever saw was a
cartoon of him like old white dude with
a beard or sometimes a lion's head and
especially if it was a real photo they
would have a cartoon lion's head over
his face.
>> Oh wow.
>> Because he was the lion of God.
>> I don't remember why he was a lion but
he was a lion.
>> But there was a lot of paranoia too,
right? you're talking about like there
was international communes, there was
like name chain like you're saying like
there was like raids, there was fake
raids, there was real raids,
>> you know. It's interesting cuz it's like
there was a lot of paranoia but oh there
was also for a real reason because they
were an international criminal syndicate
doing really crazy stuff, you know. So I
was like snuck across borders my whole
life, you know. We were always lying
about what we were doing with money and
what our education was. So there was real
real
they're out to get us, but it was of
course not explained to us as because
we're doing all these bad things. It's
because we are on the right track and
the world doesn't understand. And so it
was both. But I would go on to hold a
top secret clearance in the army. And
I've never seen one single security
procedure in the military that we didn't
have in the cult. I was like we had
classifications on documents, we had
everything. Like it was so so paranoid.
>> You had like a lot operational security situation.
situation.
>> So much operational security driving
around for 2 hours before you could go
home so nobody would find you, follow you.
you.
>> And there was like practice rates too,
right? Like it's like similar like you
drilled the same way in the army as you
drilled in >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> the cult to a certain extent. [laughter]
That chapter in my book about the
drilling and the programming children to
lie, deceiver is yet true. All that
rolling stone published that chapter. [laughter]
[laughter]
>> Yeah, tell me about the deceiver is yet
true. Tell me about that.
>> It was an so an actual theory and I
actually in my second book, Cultting of
America, I talk about justified lying
and most cults have some version of it.
My favorite name is transcendental
trickery. That's the Jehovah's
Witnesses. Um, we called it Deceivers
Yet True and we literally had a cartoon
comic book and it was drawn by my
stepfather and Jeremy Spencer formerly
of Fleetwood Mac and it was just all
these stories about like in the Bible
there's a guy named Joshua and there was
this prostitute Rahab so example of good
prostitutes and also she hid them from
the soldiers and then they were able to
you know come take the city and kill
everyone except her. nice story. Um, you
know, and we just had all it was just
all these different stories of like when
it's good to lie. Um, and you know, I
think this is actually one of the
hardest things for cult survivors to
heal from afterward is just I think so
many of us are really afraid that we are
sociopaths because we've been taught
that like it's okay to lie when it
benefits you and we have to build a
moral code completely from scratch when
we find ourselves out of that.
>> You were mostly a child in the cult
until about 15. I'm sure the adults had
one thing to lie about, but what what
would they tell the children to lie about?
about?
>> To be fair, I know if we were ever
children, but [laughter]
>> well, in fact, what does that mean?
>> I mean, just that we were
labor, you know, we were work from as I
mean, I was filming from before I was
one years old. So, like I and we were
also manual labor in
>> the commune. And there was nothing about
our childhood that was about being
children. You know, one of the things
that I say it's it's hard to talk about
children of God because everyone goes,
"Oh, sexual abuse. Okay, it was bad."
And it's like it was so much more than
that. You know, the I describe it like
we grew up in religious prison camps,
right? We're medically neglected. We
were worked as slaves and we weren't
really told anything other than this is
if you were born in the family, God
wanted you to be a soldier and this is
what you're going to do and anything
else you're going to hell. But you're so
controlled. And so what I said that like
ultimately the biggest abuse of growing
up in children of God was just no
spontaneous moments of joy. Like you can
never just relax and be a kid ever. It
is always like the headline is all the
sex. That seems to be one of the most
unique parts of the children of God, but
there were a bunch of other odd
behaviors or odd beliefs. Do you have
any others that like stick out that
people are most interested in?
>> Do you know about the sex with Jesus?
>> No. Okay. I did a lot of research. I did
not hear about this.
>> It was called loving Jesus. And this was
what his wife brought in after he moved
on and she took over the cult. And so
first it was everyone can talk to Jesus
directly. everyone can speak to the Lord
in prophecy, not just prophet. And next
it was, we're all married to Jesus. He's
our lover. And so it basically just just
became like out loud spiritual orgies
that the adults would house.
And also, even though they were very
homophobic, the men were supposed to
imagine that they were women while they
were having sex with Jesus so that they
wouldn't be imagining
gay sex. So, I guess they were cool with
trans like way way before the time.
>> Okay. So, there's you were having sex
with or they were having sex with Jesus
in an orgy style and the men were with
men or the men were like they were
pretending to be. So when they would be
in a group generally nobody was having
sex. They were just if you think about
like a church praising God. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But it was like talking dirty to God.
>> And the men had to talk dirty to Jesus
as a man.
>> Jesus. So then they were then instructed
that in their minds they were supposed
to be imagining that they were women.
>> Okay. They were getting in touch with
their feminine side a little bit. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
So I mean that was that was a weird
belief. uh cults, all cults, I think,
hate medical care. So, that was a big
one. And I think it's for two reasons,
which is the obvious, you know, first
reporters stuff, but also medical care
is individual, and you're not supposed
to be an individual.
Um, but I think maybe my favorite was
that when we died, we went to heavenly
city, which was a physical city of gold
in the moon.
>> In the moon. and the moon.
And uh so one of the things I say in my
my research book is cults always promise
space travel. And you know I've been
thinking about that for a very long
time. And so he he came out with this
theory that we're all going to go live
in heaven and there's levels you know of
how close you are to God. There's a
hierarchy even in in heaven. And he gave
me for it right which is a ripoff of
Noah's arc. about to say. Yeah, it feels
very Noah's arc.
>> And so it turns out it took a couple
years cuz we were pretty isolated, but
maybe 2, three years later, somebody
figured out that those dimensions didn't
actually fit inside the moon.
>> Oh no, they were too big.
>> Too [laughter] big. Okay.
>> And so then it just became, well, they
don't know how to measure the moon. And
who are you going to believe? The
devil's scientists or me, God's prophet?
>> Well, you mentioned the the space one.
So we've got I didn't realize Children
of God was also had a space element.
Scientology has a crazy space element.
Uh, Heaven's Gate was behind Haley's
Comet, right? Is there any other ones
I'm missing right now?
>> Oh, the Mormons.
>> Oh, the Mormons get lots of planets.
>> Promise collab. But the Mormons have
lost their planet. So, I don't know what
they did, but they don't get their
planet anymore.
>> I feel like my face is like you keep
saying stuff and I keep like reacting.
The thing is I I thought a lot about it
especially with the creation of the
space force and I was like okay there's
a pattern here. So I think it's it's
necessary to coercive control and this
has been a lot of my figuring it out.
It's like I recognize a pattern and then
I have to think about it and then I can
go in the research. And I I think it's
crucial to coercive control to have
something that you're promising
that is beyond the pale. Right? So, it's
not always physical space, but
metaphorical space, another dimension,
another body, another level, another vibration.
vibration.
I have found that with single family
cults, cuz that's a thing a lot of
people don't know about that the promise
of Disney World, so Space Mountain
>> can be Oh, okay. I see what you did
there. The micro to macro cult
situation. Like, there's families that
are cults. There's macro, there's like
political movements that are cults and
we we kind of concentrate on this like
middle ground of cult, right? Like
>> this like not nation state, this
charismatic leader because they land
somewhere in the middle like a family
cult you wouldn't never do anything
about or people wouldn't talk about
because there's a lot of those
>> big political movements are legitimate.
They see them as legitimate but it's the
medium ones, right?
>> I guess because I don't know why.
>> Why do we concentrate? Well, it's funny
because if I talk about nations, people
will be like, "Stop belittling it by
calling it a cult." It's a actually
totalitarian nation is a subset of cult.
It's a cult that now has the military ultimately.
ultimately.
>> Like I have I have it on my list for
later, but like North Korea.
>> Yes, absolutely.
>> Like cult of personality.
>> The examples and one of the only ways I
think to pass down a cult of personality
is when you have a closed off nation and
you own the military. So there are all
you need for a cult is two people. So
you have one to one cults and then you
have single family cults. The most
famous one is probably Westboro Baptist Church.
Church.
>> Okay. But I think actually one of the
most useful things that I do on a
day-to-day basis is tell people that
your abusive relationship could have a
an occult dynamic and your family,
especially if it was, you know,
narcissist plus enabler, both of whom
are abusers with children, like very
often single family cults. And part of
what we know is like we're never going
to know. We're never going to define all
of the cults. And I truly truly believe
that you have to understand what you
went through to be able to, you know,
contextualize it and recover from it.
And so part of what I do, I just call it
the value of the extreme story. No one
is going to dare tell me that I wasn't
in a cult or that I don't understand
cults. And so I'm kind of like, well, if
you're relating to my stories, yes. You
know, one of the things I say in the
workbook is, if you think you were in a
cult, I believe you.
>> Let's, you know, work on why, you know,
I can really help people put names to
things like justified lying,
>> which is often just circle of trust in a
family, right? Or we don't talk about
this outside the home.
>> When did you realize you were in a cult?
>> Two years after I left.
So, I was 17 years old, living pretty
much on my own, going to high school.
Really still had no concept of the world whatsoever.
