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DR JAMES DYSON interviewed for the film 'The Challenge of Rudolf Steiner'

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Summary

Core Theme

Rudolf Steiner's work offers a holistic understanding of human beings, integrating the spiritual and material realms, and suggesting that our inner spiritual development is intrinsically linked to the evolution of the universe.

what do you think asin's key insights in

terms of not just the understanding of

the child but of of the human being all

together I think he's given us given us

a foundation for penetrating the

connection of mind and body of psyche

and Soma of Consciousness and substance

in the sense of of you know metabolic

substances he he was schiner was a

monest he didn't split the world into

into two parts and say one part is

mental and another part is physical one

part is conscious and another part is

material for schiner matter and spirit

worked together and if there was if

there was any anything going on in in

the realm of cognition in the human

being at any rate is connected with a

metabolic process now that doesn't mean

that you can reduce Consciousness to the

materialistic picture of substance that

we have but um neither does it mean that

Consciousness is something that's

floating around

somewhere neither does it mean that

Consciousness is produced by the brain

in the way that say red blood cells are

produced by the bone marrow but all

these images that we struggle to with

which we struggle to understand

Consciousness end up being dualistic and

schiner insisted on on a on seeing the

same thing from two points of view and

his approach to medicine as well as

child development really bears that out

and G and enables us

to to see an awful lot of um things that

are going on

psychologically in terms of their physiological

physiological

correlates and movement I suppose is an

example of that it's a movement the way

we move is a bridge between the

metabolic processes that underly

movement and the gesture the

Consciousness the the drives the

awareness that that movement clearly

embodies you know is move does movement

come from from from Consciousness or

does Consciousness come through movement

it's neither the one nor the

other yeah what then is one to make

ofer's utterances about life after death

when we clearly don't have a physical body

body

I think for schiner the the life after

else I think I think it it was

acknowledging A continuing presence

within the same world that we are

otherwise living in but but at a

different level of

being um you know the the organs of the

Body for instance the liver the kidney

I don't see these organs

as merely instruments of physiological

function but I see them as as the homes

of Spiritual Beings of of living of

Living spirit and soul

beings we don't see them in the

ordinarily understood sense so I don't

see the spiritual world as something out

there but in the mysteries of the heart

which have never been better understood

than now for instance equally well of

the kidney and the liver but the heart

is perhaps a special organ in this

respect you know in in the mysteries of

how the heart functions of of the

coherence of the heart the fact that the

heart is now fully recognized as the

most sensitive sense organ in the body

not it's certainly not a crude pump

pumping the blood round it it it it

plays a unique role within the

circulatory system as a as an

enhancer of movement and and as an organ

of of coherence I would say but equally

well we can begin to be aware that the

heart is also an organ of our

Consciousness cardiac neurology card

neurology is is a subject in its own

right there a lot of work being done on

that in in America in the heart math

Institute for instance which is quite

remarkable how much is is Steiner's work

known about and respected in the medical

world generally I think I would have to

say nothing like as much as I would have

hoped or that I feel it

deserves on the other hand what I would

say is that

that

science not just the neurosciences but

science as a whole

with its increased sophistication

possibilities of you know highly complex

brain scans perfusion studies all the

manner of things that that nowadays are

possible is bringing forward

forward

evidence that those of us who have lived

and worked for many years with schiner

see as confirmation of what schiner has

said I I somehow feel it's it's up to us

to be able able to um often

interpret what is arising nowadays

through scientific research and and and

perhaps you know not not to be too

concerned whether whether people

recognized that schiner had anticipated

it in one way or another of

course in shiner's time science well

biological sciences were very primitive

I don't even know if there was a real

Concept in his day of the immune system

and and therefore he couldn't or even

the endocrine system so he couldn't

speak in in s in language that would

nowadays be regarded as scientific but

he was able to see into a field so for

instance he said that an endocrine land

what is that an endocrine land a

secretor land like the thyroid or the

adrenal gland is a kind of an extension

of the brain into the metabolism well

that's an imaginative picture what do

you make of it but when you appreciate

now that the brain is a a neuros

secretory organ and that there is a

connection between

neurotransmitters and hormones and that

the hormones secreted in the body also

have an influence back on on

neurological development so there's a

kind of conversation going on between

between metabolic processes through the

glands and the Brain you can immediately

see what it was that schiner was was getting

getting

at um but in a in a way there's no point

in then saying well Shiner should have

got a Nobel Prize for it but

nevertheless in many areas some of his

insights medically as well as

scientifically were clearly way ahead of

their time you know I could one could

give examples of that he mentioned he

mentioned lead poisoning for instance he

mentioned the relationship of of

fluoride to the teeth

um there were many many many connections

that he made which have since been been

substantiated but I think that that it's

our job to be able to use what he said

to make more of current

science do you feel that the word

spiritual is confusing even misleading

for people today it varies enormously I

think in many ways it's much less

confusing than it was when I started my

career 30 odd years ago um I think many

I think many people appreciate that by

Spirit one doesn't mean something

floating around supernaturally but one

is referring to the creative core of a

of a person the self in Psychology for

instance in psychospiritual or even

transpersonal psychology the terms self

and spirit are often used almost interchangeably

interchangeably

because the character and the nature of

self I think is is increasingly

recognized as having something quite um

unique and separate from the the its

biological basis of course in saying

that I'm in a way falling prey to my own

dualism but it's difficult to get around

so I don't I don't personally feel

constrained by the use of the word

Spirit In My Own in my own work I I find

that people

generally um know exactly what one

means of course you can't use the word

in in in a scientifically in a scientific

scientific

environment you have you have to find

other ways but that's not not always so

difficult I think what's more

problematic with schiner shiner's

vocabulary is that he did adop

words that that were originally derived

from a kind of Eastern theosophical

context so much of his medical writings

and not only also the educational do use

terms like astral body and etheric body

which which were the terms that he had

out of the necessity of his own

biography inherited and they were the

terms that people were familiar with who

were asking him the key questions and he

said for instance in his lectures to

Young doctors I wish we could reinvent

our vocabulary here but we can't so I

just you just have to appreciate what I

mean by what I

say what what is his picture of the

human being I mean in in language that

we could relate to now people talk about

Body Soul and

Spirit but

he's little more scientific than that in

a sense isn't he I'm sure he was the

first person to to speak about Body Soul

and Spirit in in a holistic way but he

also spoke about how how we are

supported by our by the physical

substance how we have a functional body

what would nowadays perhaps be called an ecological

ecological

body uh in which the the life is held

and a a body of Consciousness a body of sentient

sentient

awareness which we share with the

animals and then this unique capacity to

self-reflect to um

observe the very process the very

activity that is going on within oneself

at any given moment we can

disidentify from

our body feelings mind and who is doing the

disidentification that's the self and

that would be the the gateway to the

spirit and the bridge between spirit and

body and schiner also

um connected the these different

functional systems which interrelate

they're not they're not separate but

they they're only separate as far as our

thinking is concerned he he he related

them to the classical elements as

described in ancient Greece and pre in

other in other earlier cultures so the

the the actual mineral world the fluid

world the air reform the air the gasius

and the Fire or the warmth um schiner

reinstated not as mere descriptions of

states of matter but

as conditions through which

different systems in the human being

were able to connect to the physical so consciousness

consciousness

is very much sentience Consciousness

reactivity sense perception is very much

held within within the the gasius

element the air element and the the life

processes very much within the fluid body

body

um and and of course one can translate

this nowadays into uh into chemistry

because of course we know just how

important the dissolved gases are in the

body in relation to our

Consciousness oxygen carbon dioxide and

indeed also nitrogen you know our our

our soul life our Consciousness life is

intimately related with particularly the

gaseous elements within

us you see that for instance in in the way

way

that stress is handled in the body

nitrogenous products nitrous oxide

are involved in the maintenance of blood

pressure the whole connection of

something like blood high blood pressure

I mean hypertension with stress which is a

psychophysiological inter relationship

which I think everyone now recognizes

and which has so much to do with the

with the

kidney these connections schiner

appointed to long before the the

detailed physiology of the kidney in

relation to

rein Angiotensin nitrogen metabolism

carbonate secretion all these things

were were were were

known he he also you know he made

statements such as the much that goes by

the by way of heart disease today and

enlarged Hearts should be seen in terms

of kidney pathology well people would

stare at that at the time and not know

what he meant nowadays the relationship

between the the two is well established

and much of heart pathology is treated

via the

kidney I think what what this points to

is that is that Steiner's

insights were looking for physiological

verification he wanted this he always

said the spiritual researcher can show the

the

direction but the scientific researcher

has to corroborate this show that it

that it that it holds together and from

a certain point of view schiner was born

much too early because the science of

his day the instrumenty the the

investigations simply couldn't do what

he was needing on any level nowadays he

would have been

um working with the scientific

researchers in a much more active way

than was possible in in his time therefore

inevitably I think a split arose between

the the the general approach of the

anthroposophical doctor and the approach

that conventional medicine took and I

think that nowadays we're all really

working at at Cross referencing here we

we don't want there to be such a thing

as anthroposophical

medicine we want there to be medicine

but a great deal that schiner has said

and addressed can take hold of and and

make much more sense of medicine as it

is so yes we have to

maintain something of our own identity

because it's not possible for the two

streams to flow together instantaneously

but the direction we're working is one of

integration and certainly in the

practice of Medicine

nowadays there is no way that an

anthroposophical doctor can can isolate

himself from what's going on out there

in the

mainstream it's

impossible James what about um the

nature nurture debate I mean

that's kind of cliche almost that the

that these two

factors explain as it were where we are

now what what what is where does time is

in insights come in in that sense I mean

nature would nowadays be we would see

very much in terms of genetics I think

and nurture

environment I think one of the most

Illuminating fields of modern research

is is some

epigenetics which is epigenetic

regulation for instance it's

studying the relationship between the

effect of sense

perception and

via VIA the nervous system obviously how

influence which genes become active the

whole balance between the stimulator and

the inhibitor genes during the

developmental period of life you see

schiner made an outrageous statement in

this field which which we've been um

staring at for a long time um with I

think on the one hand realizing yes what

he's saying is is right in principle but

how on Earth can we justify it

scientifically the statement was that by

the time a child is seven he's overcome

the forces of in of his inheritance he

has he is a genetically different

individual from the person that was born

well of course DNA testing um doesn't

exactly confirm that fact however what

we are now aware of is the extent to

which our genetic inheritance is not

determining how that will necessarily

manifest in our life it will depend upon

how it is regulated particularly in the

early years of childhood and that's epigenetic

epigenetic regulation

regulation

and there is a particular window of

opport opportunity for this particularly

in the in the first three years but I

think it extends a little longer and it

also works between Generations

so how a child deals with the

environment now and what what comes

towards a child may not necessarily have

an immediate effect on the on on the

genetic expression of that child but may

so back to your question of Nature and

nurture they work

together the given the the the genetic

material that is given

is far more

malleable than our um traditional

science of genetics would have thought

in the past far more open and malleable

to sense perception and of course this

this emphasizes just how important early

the early years of childhood are in

terms of establishing um genetic

Pathways and in in terms of

salutogenesis in terms of health

promotion but in in in simpler terms am

I right in thinking then that we are not

totally determined uh by our genetic

inheritance on the one hand and the the

sort of environment in which we grow up

on the other other that there is another

factor which what exists already before

we're born I mean that's the implication

is yes that that's very much the

implication that what that what we meet

in our environment is not actually

arbitrary no more than what we meet in

our body is

arbitrary and the two are not as

disconnected as our dualistic

Consciousness might imagine

there is there is perhaps even a lock

and key relationship so how does one

understand that one can imagine a kind

of a kind of unifying system if you like

at a higher level that is linking and

body but okay and and I mean to to to

put it in to put it in dualistic

language the human the human self the

human Spirit pre-exists birth

and exists after

death the spirit is at work before birth

both in the building up of the body and

in the building up of the

environment both this is this is if you

like the story that schiner is offering

us perhaps it's a

parable we can't can't take it too

literally because the language in which

it's expressed is is Earthly language

and it's talking about something that

transcends the Earth but I think the the

essence of it is that we are not simply

arbitrarily placed here on this planet

the victim of our genetic makeup or for

that matter the victim of our

environment but

that there is there is a part of us

which is the architect of both and that

is the part that awakens in our

Consciousness as self we may not be

aware of it but an increasing number of

people nowadays often are you know

people do have not only near-death

experiences but experiences of of of

birth and pre-birth memories this is

well well known and well

established also you know all the work

that Yung did

around the theme of

coincidence you know the outer event

matching the inner

process this is confirmation of the fact

that we don't we don't simply live in a

cause and effect relationship to the

outside world but a an ecological one

that there is in fact a a

coherence between the two now we can

call that coherence the third factor

that transcends the nature and the

nurture but but works through

both I think that would be that would be

one attempt to to describe something

that is in in its Essence um

transcendental and

transpersonal I think Barfield would

have called it no etic I think and it's

this what you call third element then

that in a wall of school they are also

as it were addressing and and nurturing

with that be right if you hold an

awareness of this third element in terms

of an attitude in terms of a of an

approach to the child I think that that

your your possibility of of empathy

increases and I think that your your

capacity to be there to serve the

individual nature of each child is is

enhanced I I think it it it helps to

build faculty

rather than holding uh you know I mean

was it Aristotle who said education has

more to do with lighting fires than

filling buckets you know well if you're

talking about lighting a fire what are

you talking about fire warmth Spirit

self and the spirit in the child needs

to be seen the spirit needs to be heard seen

seen

recognized a child's neurology

neurology

mirrors being seen the the act of being

seen is vital for the inner stimulation

of the

child's bioc

pychology even even to the extent that

that there are neurons nowadays

identified called mirror neurons and I

think they have something to do with

their activity I think has something to

do with with autis or the autistic

Spectrum but in a sense all of us not

just children are hugely influenced by

how other people perceive

us I think we're not just seeing

outwardly but a sense of what we are or

might become

yes and and this is vital in ter in

terms in terms of an approach to

education because if you concentrate

solely on weable and measurable

outcomes then you already have a mold

fulfill you can hold that as part of

your your picture but there is another

half there is another part

there what's seeking to emerge what's

seeking to unfold because a human being

doesn't just replicate a species in the

way that an animal does a human being

has this unique capacity to unfold

something new and creative that will

make a difference in the world

fundamentally but that depends upon the

human being knowing that they

are valued that they are

important so a child centered education

vital that's very well

expressed should we tackle re Carnation

means I mean how does that play into

doctor well I certainly don't claim to

be able to

trace illness or happenings in this life

to former lives and neither do I see

that as my my task for yourself or for

your patient or both for both generally speaking

speaking

but the the way that you the way that you

you

carry if you see if you see a human life

as a segment of a much bigger

process then it enables you to

appreciate that the mission or the

Destiny or or the the the motivation

that lives in a child is

probably an activity of will that is

carried over from a former life that

there is something there of a mission

that was perhaps in a former life only

able to come to a very provisional um

fruition or expression and is now being

um given an opportunity to go

further and I I certainly hold the

picture that that

um we take

stock of what it is that we're here

for and that

we we then at the end of our life as is

indeed often described in you know

people who've had near-death experiences

meet the question what have you done

with your

life now no human life can never fulfill

its entire potential it can only be a

fragment a part and for me I find the

the idea that that is one fragment among

many very helpful but of course it's not

the it's not the the personality that

reincarnates it it's that invisible

intell that we're calling self that is

able to self-

observe it is it is a part of the

universal self it's a part of the universal

universal

spirit and I think that through

reincarnation and

Karma the spirit is evolving through human

beings you know a remarkable statement

schiner once made is that human beings

are the religion of the

Gods another way of putting that is is

the spirit that through the spirit in

the human being the spirit in the

universe is also evolving and that in

the course of evolution human beings are

in this sense um Co

co-participants in in in the

Divine and within every individual human

spark for me the picture of

reincarnation and Karma thoughts that

makes it more more coherent more more more

intelligible and one would then be able

to look

upon even

illnesses as as possibly a part of the

the resistance that we have to meet in

order to fulfill our potential because

resistance in life is vital you know

without without resistance psychology

talks about optimal

resistance if if a child isn't given

resistance nothing develops it's the

same in with muscles isn't it you know

we muscles need resistance in order to develop

develop

strength psychological muscles need

resistance too and sometimes in our

lives we have to we have to meet

resistance and pain in order that it

will eventually bring the best out of us and

and

that that is now now dayss in in in

medical in the medical field we call that

that

self-regulation the the the the ability

of a human being to to be aware of the

resistances of illness and to to take

account of them and assume assume

responsibility within them rather than

expecting Medical Science to just do it

for you because however much Medical

Science indeed can and does do it's the

self-regulating activity that is

probably the the health promoting

activity if you want to make a person

ill you disempower them you give them

you you put them in an environment in

which they their ability to feel that

they matter is worn down and it's the

worn down person who has no longer any sense

sense

of the ability to change the environment

that they're in that will die it's the

the spirit that remains

remains

um inwardly active and responsible under

adversity that survives the concentration

concentration

camp and therefore this is seen

increasingly um

Factor antonovsky work in America B

bears that

out James one of the sort of stumbling

blocks for for people they come across China

China

is how can somebody know these sort of

things with that sort of exactitude and

certainty it's even quite

off-putting what what would you say to

that well in the first instance I think

it's a matter of

it's a matter of living living with the

facts as you perceive them and coming to

terms with with the facts isn't

it what facts well

well

schiner shiner's work is so

all-encompassing so

transdisciplinary it spans so much that

we would assume that it's unrealistic

that any one human being could have

brought so much forward and indeed many

people have said if schiner had just

specialized on any one field he would have

have

become the Einstein the Freud or

whatever of that particular field given

that he he

was interdisciplinary multidisciplinary

he could never achieve that status

that's that's true but it is it is

remarkable that a human being is is able

to say so much from

a from the point of view of what he he

himself calls uh spiritual cognition spiritual

perception you can only live with it and

live with it um with your own

questioning questioning

mind and see to what extent it makes

sense and that's what he asks us to

do probably most people dismiss it

because it it it doesn't it doesn't

appear to easy digestion that's for sure

to to really

work to really get to grips with schiner

you have to you have to work hard very

hard over over over years over decades

decades and

gradually something of where he's coming

from conveys itself and a sense of a

sense of integrity and and confidence in

this person grows not because you're

believing in his authority but but

because there there is a a coherent

inter relationship between what he says

in one context and what he brings in

another and also because you will be

looking for substantiative evidence in

in the fields in which he's speaking and

also the proof of the pudding is in the

eating you know you know W of

education has its result

as does anthroposophic

medicine as does biodynamic farming

farming

um now

how if that if that fact increases one's

awe and respect for what the human

spirit is capable

of that can only be a good thing and

schiner had a particular capacity which

um and he he came at a particular moment

in evolution and culture you know at

that moment when the 19th century

materialism was in a way falling falling

away but when the the modern world of of

Science and Technology was beginning he

he stood at that critical point also at

the time when

psychoanalysis was was in its infancy

but you know it was already launched but

this this this this this amazing time at

the beginning of the 20th

century and maybe he could only it he

could only have lived at that time and

brought forward what he did in the way

that he did

then it's no answer to your question

it's just it's an attempt at a

response Steiner did of course

indicate that the these faculties that

he were was drawing on were potentially

in all of

us y I mean that's important isn't it

because it stops one putting him in some

sort of ultimately UNH helpful box well

schiner schiner of course said a very

great deal from his out of his own let's

let's say intuitive spiritually

intuitive faculties which perhaps nobody

since has been able to say in quite that

way but his his message was to

everybody the capacity to come to

spiritual insights is latent in every

single individual person and the the

path the most important thing is that

each and every one of us finds their own

access to that to that development and

it will be a different access point for different

different

people phenomenology of the natural

world cultiv activating the ability to

observe to truly observe

nature um as for instance Dennis kochek

is is exemplifying Craig holridge people

I think you've already spoken spoken to

um these are individuals who are

developing and to a degree have

developed in their field a kind of

reliable perception of phenomena that

could be termed

spiritual following in many cases in

most cases the the indications that

schiner gave and schiner um also gave

us simple but nevertheless quite arduous

exercises to do in in order to to

develop um intuitive insights even um

quite apart from from developing

anything vaguely resembling

Clairvoyance so taking a child the

perception of a child how they've spoken

to you what's lived on in your

perception of that child into the night in

sleep and then noticing what you wake up

with in the morning in relation to the

child can awaken uh a capacity of of

practical intuition which he suggested

teachers developed and indeed this uh

something very similar can can happen

with a you know with with a doctor or a

therapist um one doesn't one doesn't

have to achieve the stage

of Clairvoyant perception that schiner

himself obviously had done in order to

be a a spiritual researcher and in order

to take further what he's

said um and I think that

the particularly in the last 20 years

the amount of secondary literature

that's appeared from schiner

from people who've been influenced by

schinina but have done independent

impressive schiner expressed in a verse

the the the the concept of the inter

relationship of the the macrocosm and

the human being and I if I remember

rightly it says um in the free human

being the whole universe is gathered

up so with the free resolve of your

heart take your own life in hand and you

will find the world

the spirit of the world will find

herself in you I think that was the

particular way he framed it in this in

verse one can't prove such a thing it

it's not a it's not a scientific

statement I don't think if by science

you mean you mean something that can be

Quantified but if the spirit of the

world if the Universal spirit that is

out there spiritual physical neither

matter nor Spirit but that which

underlies both if that spirit is

evolving in its own very

existence through human beings then it

follows from that that each human being

has to be an inner kind of has to have a

representative is is a drop of the ocean

has represents something of that

totality now you know schiner was often

very very crude and simple in the way

that he he said things you know when he

in his lectures to the Workman for

instance he said

well the hairs on our head are like the

grass on the

fields he made comparisons which from a

certain point of view seem seem very

simplistic but when you live into them

they're not necessarily

simplistic the stars in the sky

relate to the neurons in the brain why

not how many stars are there in the sky

has anybody tried to quantify it it's

it's probably an unquantifiable

question it's probably an unquantifiable

question how many interconnections

between neurons is it possible to have

quantifiable the these are imaginative

pictures which which if you take them

seriously can deepen your your

relationship to to who you are and how

you relate to the world and can overcome

alienation you know part of the problem

nowadays in depression is that the human

being feels powerless and alienated so

often from the

environment if we live with the picture

that what's out there in the universe

also lives in us and we can bring it to

an expression

in every every thought and every deed

then that can can give us a sense of our

own worth it can stimulate our

initiative it can bring out the best in

US whereas a you know a picture that

just shugs its shoulders at the whole

cynicism I think we have to distinguish

really between the what Shina gives as living

living

imaginations which an individual person

may fruitfully live with and if you like

facts that are in the literal sense true

um schiner works with both but we have

to know when he's doing the one and when

he's doing the other so this picture

that the human being is a microcosm of a

macrocosm um is is at least in the first instance

instance

an imagination to live with and to

explore it it's an Avenue into a

meditative approach to the

world schiner said for instance imagine

that our sense organs our eyes and our

ears are

like the source of a river in in the top

of a

mountain and then imagine that our

muscles and blood are like the salt

water of the sea

and imagine how the the water in the

springs is connected to the water in the

sea and

recycles and in the same way imagine how

what we take in through our sense

perceptions enters into our blood and

muscles and inspires our action and our

will and

then goes beyond us because our actions

that we put into the world are no longer

bound up with ourselves they then have

their own life and fate out there in the

world that's that's in a way like the

water returning to its source it's a cyclical

cyclical

picture now living living with pictures

like that

connects the scientificness of the fact

with with the feeling and it can

stimulate um

initiative and these pict es can can

live fruitfully not not not in a not in

the sense are they true or are they

untrue but what do they release and

unlock within the human

being they they

also depend very much on the way they

are taken up you know that the mood the

sole mood and this is where I think for

schiner the the the science Shin of the

scientist the artist and the religious

person flowed together they weren't

science art and religion were not Forin

of three different things the scientific

fact should engender a response in the

feeling and should invoke an an awesome

feeling in the will which is of more of

a religious character let's say a

respect and there is then a a kind of

cycle from the one through the one to the

other GIA Consciousness

Consciousness

theme an appreciation that the the

universe that we live in um nurtures us

and has the the quality and character of

the mother this is a

a an expression of the the picture that

we are we are children of the universe

that we're not just objects that have

evolved in an arbitrary way and that we

together last

question the film's called The Challenge

of Rin what what do you see is the

challenge schina challenged us to take

our own

thinking very very

seriously he challenged us to think Way

Beyond The Logical framework of what's

inside the box but to make connections

in our thinking which we could continually

continually test

test

the the challenge of schiner is to

uphold the freedom of the individual

human being and to awaken in each of us

a sense of our

responsibility for the not just for the

future of the planet physically but for

the for the evolution of this this

Matrix in which we find ourselves this

firmament as Shakespeare called it to

evoke a sense not just of

connectedness but of co-responsibility

and in that in the challenge of that

path we have to meet also

um limitations and our own potential for

evil we have to we have to meet in other

words our own

Freedom we can't just

replicate what what we've been told but

something has to be reborn in us because

we will it so because we think it

so I think that's perhaps the ultimate

Challenge to to to help to bring human

beings to the point where we can sit

around a table together and say our

collaboration is in the service of

of the universe as we know it we can

change we can we can make a

difference and he's given us a unique

set of tools to approach that if we can

if if we if we if we resonate with them

and and take them up you haven't use the word

God I I I don't I don't want to

postulate I don't want to postulate a

hypothetical god um but the the material

world of which we are part

part

is is in its Essence Divine substance I

mean that that that that schiner was

quite clear about

about

substance silica

calcium magnesium

carbon the these are the clothing of the

body of

God and God is that being through which

all these

substances find find their ultimate um

sublimation God created the

substances and they they've come to rest

just for a short while in order that

human beings can find their freedom in

relationship to them and I think at some

future point we will all go into a kind

of um process together again the world

that we know won't be here in this form

forever how can it be if it's if it's in

evolution you know the sun's life is

limited the Earth's life is limited but

does it all stop when the the outer

manifestation Falls

away this is this is the ultimate

existential question question for human

beings isn't it can you

disidentify from the manifestation and

still retain a connection to the sense

of being and I think for many people God

being the ground of our existence that

we through which we experience our own our

our

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YouTube 字幕：DR JAMES DYSON interviewed for the film 'The Challenge of Rudolf Steiner'