0:01 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place
0:05 in this way. In those days a decree went
0:06 out from Caesar Augustus that all the
0:08 world should be taxed. This was the
0:11 first census taken while Corinius was
0:13 governor of Syria. All went to be
0:16 enrolled each to his own city. And
0:18 Joseph went up from Galilee out of the
0:20 town of Nazareth to Judea to the city of
0:23 David which is called Bethlehem because
0:25 he was of the house and lineage of David
0:27 to be enrolled with Mary his betrothed
0:29 wife who was great with child. And while
0:30 they were there, the time came for her
0:32 to be delivered. And she brought forth
0:34 her firstborn son, and wrapped him in
0:36 swaddling clothes, and laid him in a
0:37 manger, because there was no room for
0:41 them in the inn. Then Luke 2:8-20.
0:43 In the same region, there were shepherds
0:44 abiding in the fields, keeping watch
0:47 over their flocks. By night, and lo, an
0:49 angel of the Lord appeared to them, and
0:51 the glory of the Lord shone round about
0:53 them, and they were very afraid. But the
0:55 angel said to them, "Be not afraid, for
0:57 behold, I bring you good tidings of
0:59 great joy, which will be for all the
1:02 people. For unto you is born this day in
1:04 the city of David, a Savior, who is
1:06 Christ the Lord. And this is how you
1:08 shall know him. You will find a babe
1:10 wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying
1:12 in a manger."
1:15 All right. So
1:16 there's a variety of things happening
1:18 there. I'll unpack them briefly and then
1:20 we can discuss them. So the first is
1:24 that Christ is born under the dominion
1:27 of the state. That's the point of the
1:29 census and the forced movement of
1:32 people. The the state has a tyrannical
1:34 element. Every person even the savior of
1:37 the world is born into a situation where
1:39 they have to contend with the background
1:42 tyranny of the state. And then the next
1:44 part is that
1:46 >> and Augustus is the first god emperor.
1:47 It's important to understand.
1:49 >> Right. Right. So that's that's amplified
1:51 that fact, right? Because the Roman
1:53 state is also degenerating towards a
1:54 theocracy, right?
1:56 >> Isn't he called o because he's the son
1:59 of Julius Caesar son of the god.
2:01 >> Exactly. Right. So he would be on all
2:04 the coins you'd have >> deviing
2:05 >> deviing
2:07 part of the world the where the Roman
2:09 imperial cult the cult of the emperor
2:11 was very very strong. That's the
2:13 language that was used. So, we have the
2:15 genuine God being born at a time when
2:17 there's a false god who's emerged in the
2:19 tyrannical state. Classic. That's a
2:22 classic hero story. Okay. So, who's the
2:26 true god here? Well, it's a a babe,
2:29 right? So, is that every human baby with
2:32 the potential to be to participate in
2:34 the redemption of the world born in a
2:37 very lowly place? Well, that's a
2:39 biological reality as well because all
2:42 human infants are incredibly threatened,
2:44 right? We're our infants are extremely
2:45 dependent. They're very, very
2:47 vulnerable. We're born under the tyranny
2:50 of the state. Were born in relationship
2:52 to nature and even low nature and that's
2:54 associated with the manger. So, it's
2:56 it's the emergence of the highest and
2:58 the lowest as a counterposition to the
3:01 false highest that's Augustus. And then
3:03 that's reiterated to some degree with
3:05 the proclamation to the shepherds. It's
3:07 like, well, who who gets wind of this?
3:10 Well, it's not the people of the court.
3:12 It's it's the shepherds, right? And and
3:14 the shepherds are an interesting choice,
3:16 too, because of course shepherds there's
3:18 a kinship between the shepherd and the
3:20 prophet all the way through the Old
3:23 Testament. And that and that uh imagery
3:25 is replicated continually in the New
3:27 Testament. And shepherds take care of
3:29 the vulnerable. That's essentially what
3:31 they do. And they do that independently
3:32 and responsibly. And so even though
3:35 they're lowly, they're not because
3:37 they're types of something much greater.
3:42 And and even though they are low on the
3:45 socioeconomic totem pole, the fact that
3:47 Christ's birth is announced to them is
3:50 an indication of the universally
3:54 salvific nature of his birth and
3:56 mission. Right? So that's all happening
3:57 in those in those
3:59 >> the shepherds are also counter to city
4:01 like because they're they're the
4:02 opposite of civilization. They have
4:04 these flocks. They move around. They
4:05 don't stay in one place. They don't have
4:07 agriculture. They don't have all the
4:09 things all the tropes of of the city.
4:11 >> It's also an answer for the undeniable
4:14 in a way. It's the reversal of the cone.
4:16 Right. If a tree falls in a forest and
4:17 no one's there to hear it, does it make
4:19 a sound? If the son of God is born in a
4:20 manger and there's only shepherds
4:22 around, is he still the son of God? The
4:23 answer is yes.
4:25 >> Right. Right. just great things from
4:26 lowly beginning
4:29 >> just about Augustus and um as whether
4:33 fragile or or um endangered state of the
4:38 child. Augustus is also
4:40 um the emperor
4:43 in this period of extraordinary
4:46 stability for the Roman Empire. So it's
4:50 also a good time for Jesus to be born because
4:51 because
4:52 >> Pax Romano.
4:55 >> Exactly. Exactly. So I think there's the
4:58 the the tyrant element the false deity
5:01 but also it's auspicious
5:04 um and the second point about his
5:07 vulnerability but again the emphasis on David
5:08 David
5:11 >> right he's this is the Davididic house
5:14 so it's it's in a manger
5:17 uh there's no room in the inn but the
5:19 emphasis again this is the true
5:22 successor of of of David
5:25 >> yeah and I don't think Augustus is just
5:29 the tyrannical. Uh there's Augustus is
5:32 the ender ending of a civilizationwide
5:33 civil war. >> Yeah.
5:33 >> Yeah.
5:37 >> And and and I think there's I think
5:39 there's an attempt
5:42 >> to indicate something like a chairos
5:43 happening here. That's interesting.
5:46 >> Right. Right. You've got I I I'm not
5:48 denying the tyranny of the Roman
5:51 emperor, but you know, Augustus, many
5:53 con many historians consider him maybe
5:56 the the greatest emperor, right? And
5:59 >> if God had to choose any period in
6:01 history to leave his authenticating
6:04 signature on the world in a way that
6:06 would disseminate and distribute that
6:08 message as quickly as possible. It's
6:09 hard to pick a better time than >> than
6:12 >> than
6:14 it's like if you introduce it. It's
6:16 almost like an enzyme like what what's
6:18 the state in which this action can be
6:20 most fruitful. And so in a time when
6:22 everything's filled with sin, he sends
6:24 the flood in a time when things are have
6:26 a level of stability and there needs to
6:28 be foundations through which to even to
6:31 rise up to condemn him. because in utter
6:33 chaos, you can't have so cleanly that
6:36 the temple and the government like every
6:38 aspect of the culture fails him. So they
6:39 have to be in place in order to render
6:40 that judgment.
6:42 >> It's hard to imagine the Christian
6:44 message spreading with the astonishing
6:46 speed that it does from say the early
6:50 30s AD to the point where well by 64
6:51 there are enough Christians in Rome for
6:53 Nero to be able to scapegoat the
6:56 Christians as a distinct group from from
6:59 the Jews. Um yeah so all the you know
7:01 the conditions are
7:03 >> but there is a there is a desire to
7:05 create a foil though I I think you know
7:07 because even if we talk about the pacana
7:09 we haven't gotten to the right after
7:11 that when the angels announce they say
7:13 glory to God and the highest peace on
7:15 earth of of men of goodwill right it's
7:18 basic it's trying to say it is I think
7:20 it is creating a foil to the Roman rule
7:23 which is here's the great emperor uh
7:24 without maybe not necessarily
7:25 criticizing but here's the great emperor
7:27 here's this this piece But now here's
7:29 the true emperor that's hidden at the
7:31 bottom of the world in a cave in a
7:33 manger and the and that and that this is
7:35 through this that that the true peace
7:36 will be found.
7:38 >> It's the language of that's the language
7:40 of an imperial edict. And in fact
7:41 actually it's worth pointing out that
7:43 the word the Greek word for good news or
7:47 gospel is evangelon which is the word
7:50 that emperors would send out often the
7:51 emperor's birthday. Yeah,
7:54 >> you would send the evangelion to the,
7:56 you know, towns and villages that that
7:58 worshiped him. And this was particularly
7:59 in this part of the world.
8:01 >> And this was the good news, the good
8:02 news of the emperor of of, you know,
8:04 Caesar's birthday. So there's a clearly,
8:07 I think, a a semic-conscious
8:10 aping and mimicking of the language of
8:13 the imperial cult to assert that
8:15 >> Jesus is Lord and therefore Caesar is.
8:17 >> In the beginning, God created the
8:19 heavens and the earth.
8:21 >> You will pay the piper. It's going to
8:23 call you out of that slavery into
8:25 freedom. Even if that pulls you into the desert,
8:26 desert,
8:30 >> that we need God is is a given.
8:36 [music]
8:38 >> Remember the Sabbath day to keep it
8:40 holy. The thing you value enough to make
8:43 sacrifices for of any sort. That's your goal.
8:44 goal.
8:45 >> Love [music] God. Love your neighbor.
8:49 >> That's a fundamentally religious idea.
8:51 The death of Christianity [music]
8:53 frightens me.
8:56 >> Why bother with this strange old book at
8:59 all? You know, turns out that a book is
9:02 more durable than than stone. [music]
9:12 >> I think [snorts] it's a formula in some
9:13 way sums up the whole Bible. You know,
9:15 glory to God in the highest and peace
9:17 among us. That's how it works. When you
9:19 give glory to something other than God,
9:21 then violence breaks out and division
9:23 breaks out. But if you really give glory
9:25 to the sum bonum appropriately, then
9:27 peace will obtain among us. So the
9:28 angelic message is
9:29 >> is that's the whole Bible.
9:30 >> It's the whole Bible. That's the whole
9:31 Bible. I totally agree.
9:33 >> And some of that's associated with the
9:35 glorification of the infant
9:37 >> as a as a as a center of attention,
9:39 which is a proper center of attention. Yeah.
9:39 Yeah.
9:41 >> Right. But it also has to be like for it
9:43 to be the fullness you also have to have
9:45 these extremes where the angels appear
9:47 above and these singing angels right the
9:49 the music of the spheres and then the
9:52 lowest aspect of reality being connected
9:54 together so that you say oh this is the
9:56 fullness of God's revelation the
9:58 fullness of God's presence in the world
10:00 represented by these two extremes with
10:02 the angels up above
10:03 >> but what's what is the Greek again for
10:05 the we say host or we say company of
10:07 angels but it's like something with army
10:10 like stratias or to The Hebrew is army.
10:11 >> Pardon me.
10:12 >> The Hebrew is army.
10:14 >> Yeah. So, and I what I find so
10:16 fascinating, so Caesar can dominate the
10:17 world because he's got this big human
10:20 army, but in fact, the baby king has the
10:22 real army. It's an angelic army of these
10:24 fearsome supernatural realities. So,
10:26 who's going to win this battle? The baby
10:27 king's going to win.
10:29 >> So, Bishop, I have a question which I
10:32 know a lot of people watching this will
10:35 have, but I have it too. Yes,
10:37 >> I agree 100%.
10:40 If we all acknowledge the God of the
10:42 Bible, it it would be a much better
10:44 world, even a peaceful world.
10:49 >> So, how do you explain because it's it's
10:53 a very real question for all of us.
10:56 >> Not just uh people who claimed to
10:59 believe in God who did horrible things,
11:01 but horrible things to other people who
11:04 believed in God.
11:07 the the uh the the Christian wars in
11:10 Europe probably precipitated the
11:12 rejection of religion ultimately.
11:13 >> Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.
11:16 >> So, I'm just curious and I really am
11:18 curious. It's not a provocative
11:20 question. It's in fact
11:22 the first book I wrote is called the
11:24 nine questions people ask about Judaism.
11:26 And one of the quest of the nine
11:30 questions is if religion specifically
11:32 Judaism is supposed to make people good,
11:34 how do you account for unethical
11:36 religious Jews? It's one of the nine
11:39 questions I asked in my first book. The
11:41 question of people who believe in God
11:43 who do bad, I mean the God of the Bible,
11:46 I it's all I'm talking about is a very
11:47 real one.
11:50 >> Dennis, let's let let's let that hang
11:52 and get that back into that when we talk
11:54 about the Pharisees.
11:56 I'm not sure they're the best example
11:56 what they've done. [laughter] >> No.
11:57 >> No.
11:59 >> Well, well, but but I think the the
12:01 question is specifically addressed in in
12:03 some of in some of the stories of
12:05 Christ's conflict, let's say, with
12:07 religious authorities, per se. And I
12:08 think we should address that
12:09 >> has to do with hypocrisy. >> Yeah.
12:09 >> Yeah.
12:12 >> The idea of of of saying one thing and
12:14 doing another like that's the opposite
12:17 of the incarnation, right? It's like
12:19 it's this disjining of heaven and earth
12:21 where you have a word and a and a being
12:24 that aren't connected. You say things,
12:25 you you think something, you say
12:26 something and then you do another thing
12:28 where Christ is saying no, heaven and
12:30 earth have to be united. That is what
12:32 the incarnation is trying to show.
12:34 >> We'll spend a whole session on that
12:36 question in in some ways. Okay. So, I'm
12:38 going to go through the leadup to the
12:40 baptism here and we'll conclude with
12:42 that. So what happens in the next few
12:45 stories essentially and I'll compress
12:48 them is that Mary and Joseph and the
12:50 people around Christ are presented with
12:52 evidence of various sorts that something
12:54 particularly special is going on here.
12:57 So we have we we first of all have the
13:01 uh the naming and events in the temple
13:03 when when Jesus is presented in the
13:05 temple and there's a prophetist there
13:09 who describes his eventual destiny and a
13:12 a prophet there too Simeon and so he
13:16 tells Mary um that her son is destined
13:18 to do spectacular things and then after
13:20 that we have the gifts of the magi and
13:24 these are magicians magi from the east
13:26 who have seen who have analyzed the
13:28 patterns of the stars in heaven because
13:30 they're astrologers and have determined
13:33 that an old age has ended and that would
13:37 be the age of the ram and a new age
13:40 Pisces is about to begin and so there's
13:43 there's signs in the stars so to speak
13:44 that something new is about to be born
13:48 and the magi come and find Christ and
13:52 represent and and regard him as the
13:55 fulfillment of their prophetic
13:58 intuition. And so that's another and
14:02 then we have the parallel this is a this
14:04 is a old testament parallel with the
14:07 flight into Egypt and massacre of the
14:08 innocents. Do you want to speak about that?
14:09 that?
14:12 >> Sure. I mean, what the interesting thing
14:13 about the flight into Egypt and the
14:15 massacre of the innocents is, you know,
14:18 the story of Jesus is always smashing
14:20 the Old Testament references together,
14:21 bringing them together in a way that is
14:24 absolutely crazy. And so what happens is
14:27 when Jesus goes to Egypt, they're he's
14:29 doing the flight and return from Egypt
14:32 at the same time. That is when Joseph
14:34 goes to Egypt, he flees his brothers
14:38 trying to kill him. when Moses leaves
14:41 Egypt with the with the Israelites, he's
14:43 fleeing the the the Pharaoh that tried
14:45 to kill the children of Israel. And so
14:48 in in this in this version, the two come
14:51 together in one story. And there's a
14:53 third element too, which is also King
14:55 David fleeing King Saul, who the the
14:58 true king fleeing the king that is there
14:59 at this moment. >> [snorts]
14:59 >> [snorts]
15:02 >> So you have this wild image where you
15:05 know the the Christ goes into Egypt in
15:09 order to in order to flee the the the
15:12 king in both ways like fleeing his own
15:14 brother but then also fleeing the the
15:17 tyrant Pharaoh. It's a it's a it's hard
15:18 even to say it because all the images
15:20 kind of come together. But this is we
15:22 talked about this in Exodus. It's a
15:24 difficult It's a difficult situation
15:26 because in some ways it has to do with
15:29 the problem of the one and and it's
15:31 right it has to do with the problem of
15:33 the of the concentration of a generation
15:36 into one person. Uh it's a little
15:37 scandalous to talk about it but I think
15:39 that that is part of what is happening.
15:41 >> So the magi tell Herod that a king will
15:44 arise and Herod determines to kill all
15:44 the all the
15:46 >> all the all the babies
15:47 >> right all the babies. And so that's
15:50 that's equivalent to what happens in
15:52 Moses' time. And it's another echoing of
15:53 the idea.
15:56 >> And also Joseph like Joseph leaving his
15:57 brothers that want to kill him into
16:00 Egypt, but then also Moses leaving Egypt
16:01 into the promised land. Those two get
16:03 smashed into one image.
16:05 >> There's also I mean there's there's
16:07 extra biblical reference. They're magi.
16:10 They're plausibly from there's Ooastrian,
16:11 Ooastrian,
16:13 >> right? And so and there's been an
16:15 ongoing relationship between Israel and
16:18 Persia and Persia figures very I mean I
16:20 I believe I read somewhere that cirus
16:22 was actually the first one of the first
16:23 people called messiah in the old
16:26 testament and king of kings and so
16:28 there's also that relationship to and
16:31 and and you know and zoro zoroastrianism
16:36 is you know is the idea that there is um
16:39 there's a that the future has an
16:42 openness to it And we are a moral
16:44 battleground in which that openness can
16:46 be decided. And I think by having the
16:50 magi there, there is a recognition of
16:51 that. So
16:52 >> yeah, but there's also the intimation
16:54 that's been presented right from the
16:55 beginning and it will be continually
16:58 presented which is that it it is related
17:00 to the story of Joseph something like
17:02 the the stranger will recognize him
17:05 first like the the that this will move towards
17:06 towards
17:07 >> the strangers
17:09 >> but but it see it's the opposite also of
17:11 the Old Testament because the Persians
17:15 send the Jews but now the Persians come
17:18 >> right it's it's a it's also an inversion
17:20 which is trying to say I think there's
17:21 something happening about the
17:25 relationship to uh in to the Zoroastrian
17:26 tradition that's being talked about here
17:28 in an important way and they are magi
17:30 and that that's like that's really important.
17:30 important.
17:33 >> It's deeply Israelite that Israel is
17:34 chosen but not for their own sake but
17:36 chosen for the sake of the nations. To
17:37 your earlier point that I mean
17:39 ultimately that the whole world's come
17:40 to Torah. Well, that's you find in the
17:42 Psalms, you find in Isaiah. From a
17:43 Christian standpoint, here's the
17:46 beginning of it. That as Christ comes,
17:48 the other nations get into foreigners
