0:06 good afternoon everybody it's uh it's
0:08 nice to see a lot of familiar faces here
0:10 and thank you very much to Ando and Nate
0:12 and the whole team for having us here
0:13 this is is a great event and an
0:17 impressive environment as well um let me
0:18 just start by saying I'm Brett Redford I
0:21 am a panorama financial markets I ran
0:22 the division of trading and markets
0:25 under the last Trump Administration um
0:27 under Jay Clayton I worked very closely
0:29 with uh Bill Hinman who was the director
0:33 of corporate finance bill is uh really
0:37 uh he's now an adviser to a16z and a
0:40 senior advisor at Simpson Thatcher um we
0:42 also have with us uh more from the uh
0:45 now commissioner summer meringer um from
0:47 the cftc it's great to have her here
0:50 she's been there since March 2022 um and
0:52 has consistently advocated for Clear
0:54 regulatory Frameworks for the uh for
0:57 digital assets in crypto and of course
0:59 Christian Carlo the former chair of the
1:03 CF TC he's also uh known as crypto dad
1:05 author of the book crypto dad now
1:07 published in Japanese everybody should
1:09 know and uh senior counsel also and
1:12 co-chair of wilky far's digital Works
1:15 practice um so with that in mind let's
1:17 dive in we are here to talk about a lot
1:20 of what we expect we might see in the
1:23 next two to four years with respect to
1:26 policy in digital assets and in uh in
1:28 crypto generally um it's a very
1:30 interesting time as you you all know we
1:33 have a change of administration we have
1:35 substantial influence uh coming in from
1:38 the crypto Lobby um great expectations
1:40 for significant you know additional
1:43 Clarity and and breakthroughs in crypto
1:46 policy but I think with that being said
1:49 there's also a great awareness that acts
1:51 of Congress don't come quickly you know
1:53 they take a long time to implement
1:55 they're subject to a lot of negotiation
1:58 and compromise and they rarely deliver
2:00 everything that is hoped for
2:02 um and certainly also the cftc and the
2:05 ICC are limited by existing statutes um
2:07 there's a lot of litigation that they've
2:09 been facing and that some people might
2:11 have liked the way they work that work
2:12 uh in the last few years but that can
2:15 also cut back and in the other way now
2:17 um and so it's going to be tough and
2:19 we're trying to have today a discussion
2:21 of kind of a a clear informed and sober
2:23 view of what we think we can expect with
2:26 all of this environment in place I think
2:28 um the first thing that we want to talk
2:30 about is all of the enforcement activ
2:31 that's been out there we all know that
2:33 there's been a lot of litigation
2:35 regulation by enforcement we're excited
2:37 to turn the page from that uh that
2:39 particular environment and so I think
2:40 the first question I want to throw out
2:43 to our panelists here is you know
2:44 understanding that none of you can speak
2:46 to any of the specific cases that are
2:48 out there and that wouldn't really be
2:51 appropriate certainly for acting
2:53 commissioner um at a high level I'm
2:55 curious what do you think happens with
2:57 all this litigation that is out there do
2:59 you think cases are going to be dropped
3:01 do you think that they're going to be
3:03 settled or do you think that we're
3:05 actually going to see crypto policy
3:07 being formed in the process of that
3:11 settlement uh process and maybe um I'll
3:12 kind of open it up to to see who wants
3:15 to go first on
3:18 that I'll start if you want um well I
3:19 think it is a new day on the enforcement
3:21 front in conversations we're having with
3:23 people in the building it looks like a
3:25 lot of the enforcement staff have been
3:27 uh reassigned from the crypto
3:30 enforcement team to other position
3:33 um still largely in enforcement um the
3:36 tone in the building is one of it won't
3:39 be regulation by enforcement it will be
3:40 you know there'll still be cases where
3:42 there's fraud there's still a lot of you
3:45 know things across all the uh industries
3:47 that the SEC regulates where fraud is
3:50 still going to be a prime of prime
3:53 concern the gotcha cases again across
3:55 the industries where maybe the laws
3:57 hadn't been as clear not just in crypto
3:59 but in in other areas as well I think
4:02 going to take much less of a a priority
4:04 um I think right now going into this
4:06 Administration they're probably where
4:08 about 10% of the enforcement Personnel
4:11 allocated to crypto cases I think
4:13 that'll get Scaled way back uh whether
4:16 cases will settle uh and whether a law
4:19 will be made in those situations um hard
4:21 to predict I do think many cases will go
4:23 on the back burner I think people will
4:25 have an opportunity to settle if they
4:27 like uh we might see the SEC start to
4:30 use 21A again a little bit more which is
4:32 a way to resolve a case where you don't
4:35 have a financial penalty um particularly
4:38 in cases where the law hadn't been clear
4:39 um but I I do think going forward we'll
4:42 see much less emphasis on trying to make
4:45 policy through those cases trying to do
4:47 that through guidance Ru making public
4:51 comment um and uh it is I think
4:52 generally a new new
4:55 era I'll try to take a shot at this and
4:57 I'll approach it perhaps from a from a
4:59 higher altitude point of view it my
5:01 experience all organizations take their
5:04 tone from the people at the top uh we've
5:05 got different types of people at the top
5:08 now the last few administrations except
5:11 for Trump 45 it was the political class
5:13 and it was a lot of lawyers and the
5:16 approach that certainly was there during
5:20 Biden was um it's mother mayi before you
5:22 proceed with Innovation the tone from
5:24 the top now is not a lot of lawyers not
5:26 a lot of political Class A lot of
5:28 entrepreneurs and they want to get back
5:30 to an environment that's a traditional
5:32 American certainly a Silicon Valley
5:34 environment which says if you're not
5:35 breaking something you're not moving
5:38 fast enough don't ask permission ask
5:40 forgiveness and so when I the way I
5:42 think that's going to work its way down
5:44 to the enforcement level by the the
5:48 market Regulators is going to be less um
5:50 going after firms and I've heard this
5:52 phrase used in the new Administration
5:56 for foot faults let's play the game or
5:58 to use a football analogy too many
6:00 penalties ruin the game and if the game
6:02 is about entrepreneurship it's about
6:04 building business it's about building in
6:08 America we can't have a uh play flagged
6:10 we've got to have a a more permissive
6:12 now that doesn't extend extend a fraud
6:13 manipulation there's going to be the
6:15 same if not a greater emphasis on fraud
6:18 and manipulation but for technical
6:20 violations um I think you're they're
6:22 going to say look if you're building
6:24 something legitimate that's a technical
6:25 violation we'll deal with it as a
6:28 technical violation not necessarily an
6:30 enforcement action or Wells no as all of
6:32 the stuff that's been used to stifle
6:34 Innovation over the last four
6:37 years and I'll give my quick legal
6:39 disclaimer that I have to give as a
6:40 government employee that the views I
6:42 share today are my own and not
6:44 necessarily those of the uh commissioner
6:47 my fellow Commissioners so I kind of put
6:50 these cases in two buckets there's the
6:53 bucket of Fraud and I've always been a
6:55 little frustrated that everyone has
6:57 called it crypto fraud because in my
6:59 experience from what I've seen they just
7:02 call it crypto fraud but it's fraud they
7:04 take your money they misappropriate it
7:07 no crypto's purchased that's not going
7:09 to go away we will still see in fact we
7:11 may see more of those cases because we
7:14 will have enforcement focused on that
7:17 sort of activity where they should be
7:18 focused because there was a lot of
7:20 people losing a lot of
7:23 money with a with the name crypto
7:25 involved but no again no crypto being
7:27 bought or sold so the idea of crypto
7:30 fraud I think is a very unfair ter term
7:32 um it's just fraud it's no different
7:33 than any other fraud that's been
7:36 perpetrated over you know many many
7:38 years those cases will continue we may
7:42 even see more and it's important that we
7:45 continue that you know those enforcement
7:49 um efforts where we won't see as much is
7:51 this idea of you know what we have done
7:53 with a few cases that I've spoken out
7:56 against is we have brought registration
7:58 violations and what's even more
8:01 frustrating about this is sometimes
8:04 we'll say in the settlement you failed
8:08 to register as maybe a a contract Market
8:11 maybe as a swap execution facility maybe
8:12 as a clearing house we're not sure we're
8:14 not sure what you failed to register at
8:17 but you failed to register and so we're
8:20 going to ask you for a settlement and at
8:22 the end of the day there's actually no
8:24 way for these entities to come in and
8:27 register as any one of those categories
8:30 so we're going to get away from that
8:33 we're if if the idea is to get people
8:34 into register we're going to provide
8:36 some clarity help them you know how how
8:39 do we do this how do we make this work
8:41 and let our enforcement team focus on
8:42 what is really important which is
8:45 rooting out fraud in the
8:48 markets that's that that's fantastic so
8:50 we're going to Pivot now to Congress and
8:52 legislation so I think a lot of us
8:54 understand that a lot of statutory
8:56 Authority is probably needed in some of
8:59 the areas where that statutory Authority
9:01 is not particularly clear we had a brief
9:04 prep call and even since then um we've
9:05 had more announcements Senator Bill
9:06 Hagerty announced that he's going to
9:09 introduce new stable coin legislation um
9:10 we all know the digital asset
9:12 subcommittee in the Senate is being led
9:15 by senator lumus who is the obviously uh
9:17 leading on the lumus gilland build with
9:20 with Senator gbrand Congressman french
9:21 hill who ran the digital asset
9:23 subcommittee is now running the house
9:24 Financial Services committee so there's
9:27 a lot of optimism in Congress and um and
9:29 certainly a very Pro cryp through
9:32 attitude so my question now is like what
9:33 do you want to see and what do you
9:36 expect to see can get done in the next
9:38 two years between stable coin Market
9:41 structure legislation or anything else U
9:43 bill you want to kick us off sure um
9:45 well I do think the stable coin
9:46 legislation that's been proposed in the
9:50 Senate uh looks pretty good um and I
9:52 expect and fren chill said this the
9:53 other day that something very similar
9:56 will get introduced in the house uh I
9:58 think as an industry that's terrific uh
10:00 to have Clarity there it's one of the
10:02 easier things for the Senate and the
10:05 house to work on together and to get out
10:07 there and it's a good first step uh I
10:09 think the framework legislation is going
10:11 to be tougher uh French had indicated
10:13 that they're going to start again with
10:16 fit 21 um many in the room probably had
10:19 various issues with fit 21 everyone no
10:22 one loved it uh in its entirety uh there
10:25 was some bations there between the sec's
10:28 jurisdiction and ATS markets and uh the
10:30 cftc uh having a General market
10:33 framework regime so I think that's going
10:34 to get addressed and worked out he did
10:37 say there'll be some improvements um but
10:39 I think that's going to take time uh you
10:40 know in the same way that it's going to
10:42 take time for the SEC to kind of turn
10:44 over a new Leaf to really come through
10:46 with some concrete evidence that now
10:49 this is a more you know hospitable uh
10:50 regulatory approach I think it's going
10:53 to take a while for um the the Congress
10:55 to actually move and to get the
10:58 consensus from the agencies you know one
10:59 of the things that marked the last four
11:01 years was that there was not a lot of
11:03 technical assistance being given by the
11:07 SEC or the cftc probably even less from
11:10 the SEC than the cftc to Congress as
11:12 they try to Grapple with these issues
11:15 they're tough they're ones that are very
11:17 technical and where they really benefit
11:20 from SEC and cftc advice uh that's going
11:23 to be available again and I think um
11:25 you'll see fit 21 and whatever happens
11:27 in the Senate have uh much more input
11:29 from the agencies and so that's going to
11:31 take take a little time in the meantime
11:33 I think we will see interesting things
11:35 going on the agency at some point I'd
11:36 love to chat about those but let's stay
11:41 focus on the legislation right now great
11:43 you um Brett I was at the uh I gave a
11:45 talk at the RNC convention in in
11:48 Milwaukee in August on crypto in a trump
11:51 Administration and I said that um I saw
11:54 Trump proceeding in three three buckets
11:57 the easy the more difficult and the very
11:59 difficult the easy was getting rid of B
12:01 bad policy the more difficult was
12:03 delivering on the promises made in
12:05 Nashville in July and the difficult was
12:08 actually getting good policy so what
12:09 we're seeing we're seeing that play out
12:11 exactly like that getting rid of bad
12:13 policies actually moving at lightning
12:16 speed we we've we've already gotten rid
12:17 of or at least we're in the process of
12:20 getting rid of debank and the work
12:21 that's being done by the acting chair at
12:24 the FDIC to reveal how much de banking
12:25 was going on and the hearings that are
12:28 taking place on the hill we're getting
12:30 rid of the hostility to uh self-hosting
12:32 of wallets we're getting rid of the
12:34 hostility to crypto custody with the
12:37 repeal of of sa 21 and we're getting rid
12:39 of Regulation by enforcement simply by
12:41 firing The Regulators by enforce the
12:44 enforcement Regulators so we're the the
12:46 the the getting rid of bad policies
12:49 happening very quickly the delivering on
12:51 promises promises of a crypto Council
12:54 Promises of a of a of a bitco coin
12:58 stockpile the promises of of um perhaps
13:00 capital gain reduction or elimination on
13:02 crypto transactions promises that were
13:04 made in Nashville we're seeing just the
13:07 other day with David Saxon the executive
13:09 order of studies on a stockpile and
13:11 other things so the promises are being
13:12 delivered on they're going to take a
13:14 little bit more time but they're being
13:16 delivered on but the hardest thing of
13:17 course now it's not it's one thing to
13:19 get rid of the bad policy of the last
13:21 four years getting to good policy is
13:24 challenging and and Bill just noted uh
13:26 the work that's being done you noted as
13:28 well in the house and the Senate uh but
13:30 then there's also work to be done at the
13:33 agencies and um uh my former agency the
13:37 cftc has a very good principles based
13:39 approach and so I think it's
13:40 demonstrated that it can work with that
13:43 but I think further work as Caroline uh
13:46 explained as being done at the SEC uh
13:47 Pathways need to be developed and I'm
13:51 very uh optimistic um that um under
13:54 acting chair UA but also once Paul
13:56 Atkins is confirmed and arrived with the
13:58 help of Hester Pur and her new task
14:00 force um those pathways are going to be
14:03 developed so I you know he he he
14:06 promised a lot we needed a lot we needed
14:08 to get rid of bad stuff that's happening
14:10 we need the promises delivered on and
14:11 ultimately we've got to get to good
14:13 policy I'm very optimistic it's going to
14:15 be done within the first two years of this
14:16 this
14:18 Administration it it seemed like under
14:21 chair gendler there were times when I
14:22 remember going to the hill asking for
14:25 things to kind of push and Advocate that
14:27 the SEC would do and I think now at
14:29 least on the SEC side we feel like
14:31 there's a lot of statutory Authority
14:33 they have within the realm of Securities
14:35 where we actually don't need Congress to
14:36 be leaning on them as much we can
14:39 actually engage directly with the SEC on
14:41 the cftc side it's kind of interesting
14:43 you have you know we now have the you
14:45 know obviously the big products being
14:48 Bitcoin and ethereum both being sort of
14:50 spot Commodities and it's interesting
14:52 the cftc doesn't really have the
14:55 regulatory authority to to oversee spot
14:57 commodity markets or even retail
14:59 investors so I guess what do you think
15:01 is needed um commissioner meringer in
15:04 terms of you know legislation to help
15:05 the the cftc or to help there be greater
15:07 authority to really be able to regulate
15:09 these markets so that they can evolve
15:11 properly yeah and I actually think we
15:13 have more Authority than than most
15:15 people are aware of you know when you
15:17 start looking at retail um participants
15:21 you know our um Forex markets are are
15:24 very um it's mostly retail participants
15:27 and we've we've kind of built that up um
15:29 over the years and so we do have some
15:32 experience and you know I I think that
15:35 there are some things we can do while
15:37 we're waiting for legislation you know
15:38 the biggest thing legislation is going
15:42 to do is kind of have a framework to
15:44 decide where the jurisdiction Falls um I
15:47 always go back to you know I think
15:49 people simplify the argument of is it a
15:53 commodity or is it a security that's not
15:55 quite how it works I mean everything is
15:58 kind of a commodity including Securities
15:59 but one
16:01 the SEC calls it a security then it's
16:03 out of our jurisdiction and so you know
16:06 putting some a framework around that so
16:08 we can have some clarity there but you
16:09 know there are things that we can do we
16:11 have some um exemptive Authority at the
16:14 agency that we could use um there are
16:17 there are opportunities to um expand you
16:20 know kind of our regulatory remit and
16:22 while we're waiting for congress um the
16:25 other thing I I think the two agencies
16:27 could do is you know we we could sit
16:30 down tomorrow and and come up with a
16:33 list of what's already known you know
16:34 what what's a commodity what's a
16:36 security you know what falls in SEC
16:39 jurisdiction what what Falls you know
16:40 kind of in the in the
16:44 cftc's area and how did we come to those
16:45 conclusions you know putting that out
16:48 publicly so people have an idea going
16:50 forward again while we're waiting for
16:52 legislation so I think there's a lot
16:55 that we can do before getting to to
16:58 bills um but I do at the end of the day
17:00 a market structure bills is important
17:02 but it's going to it's going to take
17:05 time um Congress does not move fast they
17:08 have a lot on their agenda and um you
17:10 know I I'm glad that they're they're
17:12 focused on this but I I think it's going
17:16 to be you know maybe not a first year of
17:17 Congress thing maybe a second year of
17:20 Congress it it is interesting I'm dying
17:22 to dump it jump into this go right in
17:25 there because because I often feel that
17:28 that sometimes SEC people are from Mars
17:30 and cftc people are from Venus and and
17:33 they speak in different languages um we
17:35 mix this up particularly well so we
17:37 could have the Absolut and you've got us
17:39 in the middle by the way we're squeezed
17:43 here but often I'll hear SEC people say
17:45 well you know in cftc world you guys
17:47 don't have investor protections and and
17:49 I say well we got you know anti frud
17:51 we've got anti-market manipulation when
17:53 I press my SEC friends It ultimately
17:54 comes down but you don't have a
17:57 disclosure regime well of course we
17:59 don't because commodities don't have
18:01 promoters when mother nature produces
18:03 oil and gas she doesn't issue a
18:06 perspectus right there there is no
18:09 Central promoters look we're both in the
18:12 business of alleviating information
18:15 asymmetries but in SEC world the way you
18:17 alleviate that is you get the promoters
18:19 to tell the world everything they know
18:21 that the world doesn't know in the SEC
18:24 world the commod there is nothing that a
18:26 commodity a gold mine knows that the
18:29 rest of the world doesn't know and so we
18:31 address information asymmetries
18:34 differently we rely on Market sources oh
18:36 there are hundreds of gold reports oh
18:39 there are hundreds of oil reports in
18:41 fact you just go on to Twitter and you
18:44 get a Bitcoin report by the second and
18:46 so what we assure is that there's just
18:48 plenty of information and let the
18:51 consumer let the market parti separate
18:54 the weed from the chaff so it's not that
18:55 we're not in the information asymmetry
18:57 addressing business it's just that we
18:59 approach it different and that's when
19:00 you're really when we sit here and say
19:02 what's a commodity what's a security
19:05 what you're really deciding is who has
19:09 responsibility if any for putting out in
19:11 investor information if it's a
19:13 commodity you there is no Central
19:15 Bitcoin promoters to issue a Bitcoin
19:17 there's the Bitcoin white paper and then
19:19 there's a lot of public information but
19:21 there's not a central promoter if it's a
19:23 security however then we're going to
19:25 rely on promoters to issue information I
19:27 see Bill chomping at the
19:29 bit well I mean I you're in for fun guys
19:31 now we're got to get really into it I
19:32 wish the world were so easy you could
19:35 say this is a commodity and that's a
19:37 security um one of the Beauties about
19:39 this technology is that you can create
19:41 instruments that are almost hybrids you
19:43 can create instruments where they're not
19:45 a full commodity it's not like it's a
19:47 completely fungible uh investment that
19:49 you're making when you decide to buy
19:51 this level one coin versus that level
19:53 one coin there are differences and
19:54 sometimes there are insiders that have
19:57 more insight into how those um products
19:59 are working and so there are information
20:02 and symmetries which is Su Point why a
20:04 taxonomy is so important like how can we
20:06 start to think about these things and
20:08 regulate them in a reasonable way where
20:10 it's clear enough uh and you don't have
20:14 to engage in a very highly subjective uh
20:17 analysis which only at today you know
20:19 ethereum and Bitcoin pass but is there
20:21 something in between where we can have a
20:24 regulatory framework where this question
20:26 is not quite as critical where you
20:30 address the a information asymmetries
20:32 problem in both agencies so it ends up
20:35 in the cftc there is a disclosure
20:36 obligation for folks that want to trade
20:39 it maybe for folks who have issued it um
20:41 you know some of the framework bills try
20:43 to do this everyone has a certain level
20:45 of information so some of these really
20:47 tough questions around is this
20:49 decentralized what's it mean to be
20:51 decentralized have a lot less importance
20:53 if everyone is getting the same
20:54 information is getting the adequate
20:56 information that they need to make a a
20:58 choice and and which instruments to
21:00 invest inv in so we think that's really
21:02 important both for the SEC to weigh in
21:06 on uh and for the framework uh to
21:08 address um and then you know in the
21:10 meantime I do think it's going to take a
21:13 while uh for legislation it could be you
21:16 know next year's Congress um and if that
21:17 happens it'll be really fascinating to
21:20 see what Hester is able to do uh with
21:24 her crypto task force right now um Mark
21:27 UA the acting chair has delegated all of
21:29 his authority in this space to Hester
21:32 which doesn't you know normally happen
21:35 uh crypto mom crypto mom and you know he
21:37 recognized that she is someone who's you
21:39 know way ahead of him in terms of
21:42 understanding the space and uh is is
21:44 very comfortable delegating that to her
21:46 uh she very much wants to hear from all
21:49 of you uh you know I have talked to her
22:01 they can do uh which would be really
22:03 helpful um for everybody and would and
22:05 show some good faith would be to do some
22:07 guidance on airdrops and aird drops is
22:09 one of these areas where you know it's
22:13 okay are the rules just all open now
22:15 anybody can do an airdrop um you know
22:17 they've been AB abused by folks in the
22:19 past and of course they're critical for
22:21 many people acting in good faith to
22:23 develop a critical Network size Network
22:25 and get the the virtuous circle of you
22:27 know people using their their Network
22:29 because they've gotten coins through an
22:32 airdrop the SEC has a lot of exemptive
22:35 authority and would be able to be very
22:38 helpful in that space uh and give people
22:40 some comfort that if you're not you know
22:42 creating an airdrop just to dump into a
22:44 market but you're the Insiders are
22:46 staying out of that for a while that
22:47 that's going to be something that will
22:49 be acceptable so there's things like
22:51 that if you have ideas where that is
22:54 helpful to your uh ecosystem and I would
22:56 you know encourage you to uh feel free
22:58 to talk to the in the meantime we're
23:00 trying to encourage them to take the
23:02 first step and to show some good faith
23:04 there but there are areas like that
23:05 where even though it's a new environment
23:08 and people are going to be much more apt
23:10 to be entertaining uh and and
23:12 comfortable with new ideas I do think
23:15 there's going to be specifics where they
23:16 can give guidance and we can help them
23:17 I'm sure most of you have seen
23:19 commissioner P's uh Speech from earlier
23:21 this week on the The Journey forward and
23:23 I think it's a really good thing to look
23:24 at because it it is en encouraging
23:27 people to engage to send in your ideas
23:29 to come and inv it so I think that's
23:31 hugely helpful I can I can say that when
23:33 I was there those sorts of things were
23:34 really helpful just to close out the
23:37 point the cftc point I can say this that
23:39 um when when Chris was chair we had a
23:41 very good working relationship there was
23:43 a lot of communication we had anou on
23:46 Security based swaps and title 7 um and
23:48 I think in the last four years that got
23:50 a little more tense maybe the
23:52 communication wasn't as fluid as as it
23:54 could have been I'm very hopeful that we
23:56 will get there and that that will sort
23:58 of you know heal itself and we'll have a
23:59 very productive conversation because
24:01 clearly the two really need to get
24:04 together right yeah and to that point I
24:06 think that the working relationship is
24:08 so good now going forward that people
24:10 have decided that maybe the two agencies
24:14 can merge so um I don't agree with that
24:18 but no that's I mean but we right now
24:21 the the kind of setup um with with uh
24:24 acting chair uh chairman UA and
24:27 commissioner Pur um acting chair fam and
24:29 myself we talk the four of us talk all
24:31 the time we don't we don't all get
24:32 together because that might be a
24:34 sunshine act violation but you know we
24:36 talk to each other and we discuss what's
24:38 going on and and what's happening and
24:41 what we're thinking about there we
24:43 should have these ongoing conversations
24:45 it shouldn't be a you know once every
24:47 six months because you have to get on
24:51 the phone um these should be ongoing
24:53 relationships and and we have that now
24:55 and I think that's only going to get
24:56 better as we go forward maybe in the
24:57 government efficiency thing they could
24:59 put you on one building and you guys
25:01 could like you know have lunch together
25:02 Hester thinks that's a great idea in
25:04 fact she said if I move in next to her
25:07 she will make me coffee every day so I
25:09 think we have time for one more question
25:10 we're kind of short on time so we're
25:11 going to try to rip through this one
25:13 quickly but you know there when you
25:15 think about the lobbies that are going
25:17 to the hill believe it or not the the
25:20 crypto you know industry and digital
25:22 assets it's not all necessarily on the
25:24 same page so you have folks that are
25:26 more CI oriented around central
25:28 exchanges you have a D5 VI you have
25:29 different different views right so
25:31 you're hearing different positions there
25:33 um and it will be interesting to see how
25:35 they resolve this and I guess Bill I'm
25:37 wondering you know sort of seeing the
25:39 different views and the different pushes
25:40 you know what do you think is the best
25:43 way to get to good policy when we have
25:44 different elements of the industry
25:46 really pushing for different things in
25:47 some cases even building regulatory
25:50 modes around existing models yeah I mean
25:52 I don't have all the answers obviously
25:55 um but I do get concerned at times with
25:57 you see different parts of the industry
25:59 sort of lobbying for their own
26:01 self-interest um I hope everyone takes a
26:04 longer term View and we all Prosper if
26:08 this industry you know prospers you know
26:10 because it has confidence in the
26:12 consumer space because we're delivering
26:14 good products because the regulations
26:17 actually make sense and and work um if
26:18 people are out there looking for their
26:22 own little you know Twist on fit 21 or
26:24 something comes out of the Senate uh it
26:26 may serve their business model really
26:27 well in the short term but I think in
26:29 the long term probably won't um so I
26:31 would just encourage everyone to think
26:33 about what is a you know a stable
26:35 long-term environment where consumers
26:38 are protected capital is raised and this
26:41 business can um be facilitated you know
26:42 I love this industry it's got so much
26:45 energy and dynamism but boy does this
26:47 crypto industry have more pillow fights
26:49 than any other industry I know L1
26:52 against L1 um exchange against exchange
26:55 stable coin against stable coin uh
26:56 events contract Market against events
26:58 contract Market it's it's an industry
27:00 that doesn't have one doesn't have two
27:02 doesn't have three doesn't have four has
27:05 five separate trade associations I mean
27:06 what industry has five separate trade
27:09 associations and so there is a real risk
27:11 that this industry continues these
27:13 battles at a time when we've got to make
27:16 good policy now the interesting thing is
27:17 a lot of the people that Trump is
27:20 bringing in aren't Veterans of the five
27:22 10 years of this industry and have all
27:23 the scars of all these pillow fights
27:25 I've sat down with with David Sachs and
27:28 he's somewhat surprised to learn about
27:30 how many of these Petty fights are going
27:33 on so my One Plea to an industry that I
27:35 love is we've got to put all that aside
27:39 and as Bill said let's focus on the core
27:40 elements and and it's a new government
27:42 that's not trying to control everything
27:44 they actually want the industry to come
27:47 to them with good ideas good Solutions
27:49 good Frameworks and we should be working
27:50 together and all of those pillow fights
27:52 should be put aside fight in the
27:56 commercial uh fra uh um uh environment
27:57 but don't fight in the policy
27:59 environment the policy environment we we
28:00 it's in all of our interest to get good
28:03 policy done and get it done as quickly
28:05 as we can I'll be really quick just to
28:07 put a quick plugin for the cftc I think
28:09 this is why principles based regulation
28:12 works so well for these markets because
28:14 it doesn't matter if you're CFI defi
28:17 trafy we have principles you meet those
28:20 principles however you see fit to for
28:23 your your model but at the end of the
28:25 day you know we're going to we're going
28:28 to um regulate for the risk and we we
28:30 have you know the principles out there
28:33 to protect against certain risks and we
28:36 let you know the the markets figure out
28:38 how best to handle that risk as long as
28:40 they're meeting our principles we aren't
28:42 going to prescribe exactly how that
28:45 happens and so I do think that's why the
28:47 cftc has kind of been the flagship
28:50 regulator for these markets or at least
28:53 that has been the trajectory of um you
28:55 know where we really should have this
28:58 jurisdiction lie so so lastly in one
29:00 sentence what do you think is the most
29:02 meaningful thing that we can get done in
29:04 the next two years actually get done out
29:07 of out of Congress to to uh you know
29:09 help move this ecosystem
29:11 forward well I think stable coins gets
29:13 done the question is whether we can get
29:15 a fit 21 or some version of it done as
29:17 well I think the same thing in terms of
29:20 what you expect from Congress I do think
29:21 you want to see a lot more coming out of
29:24 the agencies as well um in terms of
29:25 there's a lot of policy a lot of
29:27 exemptive authority and a lot of things
29:29 that can be done there to actually help
29:31 the industry and and they have an open
29:33 mind to Bringing people in and hearing
29:34 and listening and so we should take
29:37 advantage of that I spent 15 years in
29:39 Congress and so my expectations are
29:42 really low um I think the biggest
29:44 accomplish I would like to see are the
29:46 Committees all working together House and
29:48 and
29:50 Senate agriculture Financial Services
29:52 Banking Committee all of them
29:54 recognizing that they have a seat at the
29:56 table um that's the only way this is
29:58 going to get done and so that's what I'm
30:00 I'm hopeful and I think that we will
30:04 actually get that far at least thank you
30:05 all so much let's thank this round of panelist
