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Meet The Marketing Genius Behind Alex Hormozi And GaryVee

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This content outlines a strategic framework for building a successful personal brand, emphasizing the importance of a clear goal, contrarian beliefs, and consistent value delivery over virality. It provides actionable steps for content creation, platform selection, and team building.

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This is what so many people that are

listening and watching are doing right

now. They're putting time in their

precious week to make this content. And

it's content that is bringing in

audience that will never [ __ ] buy

from you. What a waste. That's Caleb

Rston, the secret strategist behind Gary

Vee and Alex Hormosi, two of the world's

biggest personal brands. In this

episode, Caleb reveals the exact system

he used to scale Hormone's brand to 11.5

million followers. I believe that the

reason why a personal brand blows up

that happens by having a very strong

insane the four-step blueprint to build

a personal brand. It's four very simple,

very basic questions that gives you an

immense amount of clarity. What is the

goal? What would I need to be known for?

The third question is about and then the

next question that you ask is the

biggest mistake people make when trying

to grow with content. You're not putting

the attention or resources towards

innovation. You're doing what you know

works, nothing more. What are we going

to do differently? What he learned

directly working with Gary Vee, Gary one

day walked out of his office, opened the

door and said, "Teene, we are

prioritizing. I don't care what we have

to do. This is going to be the biggest

thing." The 2.0 of this conversation

that I never really share is like, "Yes,

this is a brand building masterass. I

really hope you enjoy it. If you do,

subscribe and let's dive in.

>> Great. So, Caleb, so excited to have you on.

on.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> You have built personal brands for Gary

Vee, Alex Horoszi, so many like

incredible uh entrepreneurs. I'd love to

make this podcast a master class for

anyone out there who's looking to build

a personal brand and have success with it

>> and go through maybe step by step what

they need to do, some of the mistakes to

watch out for and the frameworks that

will make it a lot easier for them to

do. Would you be down for sharing all of

your 10 plus years experience building brands?

brands?

>> Yeah, absolutely. So, where do you start

if someone comes to you and says, "Look,

Caleb, I've heard and I've seen a lot of

people having success building a

personal brand, putting out content to

grow their business, like what what what

should they be doing? What's the first

step?" Well, I think a lot of people are

talking about building a personal brand

right now. It's the buzz. It's what

everybody's doing. And I think what a

lot of people are falling into the trap

of is they just start making content to

check a box. They're like, "Well, I

gotta, you know, sell people. I gotta

market. I better make content." And I

think that a lot of people would be

better served in making content if they

start with the end in mind. I am not a

uh life advice kind of guy, but I think

this is also very applicable to life and

navigating things that we go through

every day. I like to tell people to

start with the end in mind. And so I use

what I call the brand journey framework.

It's four very simple, very basic

questions that gives you an immense

amount of clarity.

>> And so we start with the question that

is our end destination. And so I always

ask, what is the goal? What is the

outcome that we want to have happen on

the other side of building this personal

brand? Cuz you know, if you're going to

do that, you're investing a lot. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Money, time, vulnerability, right? like

you're way more transparent with the

audience and public than if you choose

not to do that. So there's a lot that

you're investing. So I think you need to

know why you're doing this. Otherwise, I

think a lot of people actually probably

don't need to make content.

>> I think a lot of them probably

shouldn't. But anyways, you start with

that question. And then the next

question that you ask is, what would I

need to be known for in order to get

that outcome that I desire? Right? The

third question is about doing. We become

known for things not by what we talk

about but by the actions that we have

taken and the results that we get. And

so it's what would I have to do in order

to be known for the thing to get the

outcome that I want. The last question

brings us to today. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> Which is what would I need to learn in

order to do the things to become known

for the thing to get the outcome I want.

So like if you for example want to speak

on stages to inspire young women to

build a successful business, you

probably need to be known as a woman who

has built a successful business and

helped other women build a successful business.

business.

>> Okay? Well, in order to be known for

that, you got to build a successful

business and help people. But then

within that business has so many

different departments, right? Marketing,

sales, HR. And within each of these

departments, there are millions of

little skills that you need to learn.

And that gives you the road map of how

you go from right now to your desired outcome.

outcome.

>> So let's go through those questions one

by one. Let's give some examples. So

question one, hit me with it.

>> Yeah. Uh what is your desired outcome?

What do you want to have happen? So for

me, the answer would be I want leads to

my leads to my business and then maybe

opportunities that I I don't even know exist

exist

>> um come to me based on my my my

expertise. Would that be like a good

good answer to that?

>> It's a good starting point. I would I

would go back and forth. So I'll give

you mine first.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I have the ambition and

it's a little audacious, but I would

like to work with the number one

industry experts in whatever category I

find interesting at the time. In order

to have that happen, I would need to be

known as somebody who has helped scale

personal brands that convert in the way

the personal brand desires

>> in multiple spaces. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right now, I've only done it in entrepreneurship.

entrepreneurship. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> I haven't worked with a scientist. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. I haven't worked with a musician.

Right? And so in order to get my desired

outcome, I need to be known as being

able to do this in multiple spaces.

>> So then the next the third one becomes

very clear. What do I need to do? I need

to work with a scientist or a whatever,

right? I'm just using that as a random

example. It could be a painter. It could

be anything. Uh because I just want to

work with industry experts,

>> right? And then what would I need to

learn? Well, when I decide what industry

I'm going to jump into and work with a

personal brand, I need to learn that industry.

industry. >> Sure,

>> Sure,

>> I need to learn the viewer, the

customer, all of that. And so, that

gives me a very clear path for these

next, call it 5 years. I don't know what

the timeline actually will be, but

that's what I will be working.

>> So, they're all really useful questions.

So, the first step is getting a really

robust answer to each of those and maybe

going back and forward and yes, and

thinking about them.

>> It's again, it's wildly simple. M

>> it's not necessarily easy to actually

answer these questions in a way that is

going to be useful, right? Like uh we're

actually working on this like fun little

project that we're developing a GPT

around this and we're training it to

like push back hard. If it's not a clear

and measurable answer, because if it is

a little bit more vague, right, then

your road map is going to be more vague

and you're not going to have clarity on

what actions you need to take in order

to get to your desired outcome.

>> What's the next step? Do I just start

making content? Like, what would you

advise me to do?

>> A general answer is there's going to be

two people. Uh, one person, they're

going to need to make content to

discover what I'm about to share. Mhm.

>> The other can hear what I'm about to say

and actually sit down and work on this

right now. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> It's your brand positioning.

And this gets like wildly over

complicated by a lot of really big

branding agencies that work with all the

Fortune 100s. And I think they do

amazing work and it makes sense why they

do it. I'm a simple guy so I like to

keep things simple. I believe that the

reason why a personal brand blows up,

not has lots of views, but blows up and

has a very strong connection with their

audience to where their audience is

willing to do what they say.

>> I believe that happens by having a very

strong contrarian belief.

That is the most important thing.

Everyone right now is talking about

titles, thumbnails, your hook.

I don't think that's what causes a

strong personal brand. I think that gets

lots of views and attention, but I think

we could probably all relate to this.

There's a lot of creators that we

consume on different platforms, right?

Like the team that you have here, like

we all consume on the different platforms

platforms

>> and there's a lot of creators that we

are not subscribed to. We do not follow.

It shows up in our feed. We consume it.

But we could not tell you what their

name is right now. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> There's no brand. >> No.

>> No.

>> Right. And I believe that is the case

because we live in a world right now

where all these content gurus and

[ __ ] [ __ ] are telling people to

just download the transcript and then

make it for themsel aka don't have an

actual opinion on anything. Just

regurgitate what you're hearing, just

information, aka the commodity. This is

the only thing that everybody can do,

right? And so I believe that the best

thing that you can do is figure out what

do I believe about my industry or the

world that is different than everybody

else. I've already shared it at least

five times in this podcast. Mine, right?

I haven't said it directly, but I've

alluded to it. My belief, my contrarian

view is I think personal brand should be

built off of trust and optimizing around

trust, not virality.

>> The majority of the industry talks about

going viral. All of them. And that's

great. Uh to be clear, there's nothing

wrong with going viral, but I think

optimizing around it is the problem. And

so that's my contrarian belief. And I

think it's the only reason why we're

having, you know, a semblance of some

success on YouTube, Instagram, whatever,

is it's not because people want to hear

me talk. That's definitely not it. It's

that they're seeing, oh wow, there is a

wildly different take than what

everybody else in the industry is

saying. Gary Vee did this, right? He

entered the space when all of marketing

was about television ads, billboards,

mailers, and he's like, there's this

crazy thing called Facebook, right? Cody

Sanchez is another great example.

>> At the height of society thinking that

the only way to get rich is to be a tech

founder, the Airbnb of blank. She was

like, actually, you could be a plumber

and be a millionaire. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Wildly different message than

what everybody else was saying. And I

think that's the reason why these brands

really blow up. How do you decide what

your POVs are? Like um

>> Thank you. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah,

>> great question. Uh let's

>> It's amazing though, isn't it?

>> It's amazing though because like when I

think of Gary, I just think of all of

those strong opinions he had. It's just

like, you know, uh

>> audio and speech is the future. Tik Tok

is the future. He's always got a big

prediction. He's always got a strong POV

and it it you're right, it just hammers

in your brain.

>> Yeah. It stands out. Yeah.

>> So, a lot of people when I ask them this

question, you know, what do you believe

different? They have a very tough time

answering the question.

>> Um, people that are really really in it

and have been in it for a long time,

they have no problem answering it. But

the people that are a little bit newer,

uh, I'm talking like less than eight

years in the industry you've been in,

you probably couldn't articulate it on

the spot. So, what I encourage people to

do is, uh, there's a very easy way to do

this. Draw two columns on a sheet of

paper. On the left side, you're going to

write out all the things that the gurus,

creators, influencers in your space are

saying that you do not agree with that

you see slightly different, even if it's

like a tiny little nuance difference

that you have.

>> You're going to write those things out.

And the other thing, especially for the

the people that are newer, that I would

encourage them to do is in addition to

that, write out all the things that you

see other creators do in your space that

you're like, I would never want to touch

that. I don't want to do that. Right?

Whether it's statements, offers, ways of

packaging offers, or you know, formats

of content, right? Like the example I

always give, and I don't hate the real

estate agents that do this, but the real

estate agents that would like point to

text on TikTok, you know, we all saw

that. Like, if you don't like that,

write that on the left side.

>> And then on the right side, it's not

complicated. You're just going to write

out the exact opposite of all those things.

things.

>> And that's going to be your messaging

and what you choose to do in your

content. And this gives you an immediate

starting point on what things that you

can start to speak about that you

believe differently than what the

industry norms are. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Another one real quick to throw out

there is not only is it what other

influencers or other people are saying,

but depending on what industry you're

in, there's a lot of industry tropes. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Statements that people Right. Another

one that I hate is all press is good

press. People have been saying that for

years, but it's like I could give you a

million different examples of how that

is not true, right? But that's a typical

trope in brand, in media and marketing

that everyone says.

>> And so I would also argue if you can't

think of like influencers or people that

are creating, what is something that is

said repeated like it's just like it's

doctrine and nobody's questioned it that

you could question? Do you have four

things that you have a strong POV on? I

think I've heard you talk about there's

two that you're for and two that you're against.

against.

>> Yeah. I I like to take it a step further

because I think that a lot of people

focus on what they are for.

>> And I think it's equally as important to

communicate what you are against, right?

And so, yeah, I I have basically um let

me see if I can remember them off the

top of my head. Uh the one about wanting

to optimize around trust uh is a big

one. Uh leading creatives or I guess one

that I'm against is leading creatives

with fear.

>> I believe in creating a environment of

psychological safety. I think that leads

to the best work. Uh meaning like if you

have a boss that's yelling at you uh at

any time that you make a mistake, you

are going to be afraid to make mistakes

and mistakes are where innovation occur

and so you ultimately end up removing

any sort of innovation on your team.

>> Um a couple other ones I believe in

giving way more value than you take from

your audience. Uh that's another one

that I want to be known for. Um, another

one that I want to be known against,

uh, is

pushing something, a product out into

the marketplace that you yourself would

not purchase. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I think Chris Williamson actually used

that as his definition of grifter and I

think it is like the best definition

possible. If you are selling something

in the marketplace that you yourself

would not buy,

>> questionable. And so those are things

that I want to be known for and known as

being against. And I think it's really

important because if you identify what

you want to be known as being against,

it can cause you to turn down

collaboration opportunities with

individuals that would hurt your brand,

not help it. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Or better said, based on how we started

this, individuals that would help you

get closer to that desired outcome, not further.

further.

>> Right. Like going on your show

>> gets me closer, not further. Right? like

it's not a bad association, but there

are some podcasts out there that I do

think would be a very bad pairing for me

>> and that decision framework is

influenced by knowing what I want to be

known for and what I want to be known as

being against

>> because fundamentally brand and the way

that you think about it is is brand is

literally association, right?

>> I believe that branding is the action

that we take and so branding is just a

pairing of things. M

>> good branding is when you make an

intentional pairing of relevant things consistently

consistently

and then the byproduct of that I believe

is brand and I think that's when the

audience inherently associates you with

something else. Good brand is when it's

the thing that you were pairing yourself

with intentionally. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So like Nike and Michael Jordan, right? Like

>> that was a pairing a very intentional

pairing of relevant things. Nike was

entering the basketball market. Michael

Jordan was the basketball god, right?

And the key though is he didn't wear

them one night. He didn't wear them two

nights. He wore them every night for his career.

career.

>> That's the consistently part, which I'm

sure we can get into in a little bit,

but like that's why you want to say the

same things over and over rather than

that being the reason why people talk

about not making content. That's what

you should do. The next thing that we do

is we go to content strategy. And so,

uh, the very basic, if you want to start

at like ground zero, figure out what

medium, right? I believe there's four. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Video, audio, written, photo, graphic. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. And everyone always asks, "What

one should I pick?" >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And the logical answer is video.

>> But the more important answer is

whatever one you're going to stick with.

>> Yeah. You know, like you know, you you

see this with clients, like you don't

get [ __ ] for the first year from making

content. Some do,

>> but 99.9999%

do not, right? They don't get anything

for the first two years. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And I would argue the majority don't

even get anything for the first three years.

years.

>> And I don't think that's a problem. I

don't think that's a bad thing. But I

think that uh if you're going to know

that this is a three-year sprint, you

better pick something you're going to

stick with. You know, the analogy that I

give every single time is it's like if

you're going to get into fitness, pick a

workout routine or a nutrition program

that you're going to actually follow,

right? Doing some crazy wild diet for

two weeks ain't going to do anything for

you. And so pick the one and and you've

seen this, I know. Like if you pick

audio or you pick written or you pick

photographic and you start putting [ __ ]

out, you start to get to a point where

you're like, "Okay, it's not that bad

putting myself out there. Maybe I could

do video."

>> Yeah. We pick one of those. >> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> Based on whatever just feels most

natural to us, like we we feel excited

or comfortable pulling out the iPhone. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Or writing. Then

>> how how do you then pick a platform? Do

do you pick a platform then and then

start ideulating from there or

>> let's get crazy. Yeah. If you're a solo

creator, you pick one platform

>> as your primary and you pick a secondary.

secondary.

>> We'll go into that in a second.

>> If you have a team, I expect far more of you.

you. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Pick three primary platforms that you

are creating for. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> And then and you can have secondary

platforms, but I don't care about those

nearly as much. Um, and and by the way,

that that is the starting point. Like

there's been teams that I've been a part

of or helped build where it's like we

have, you know, six or seven or nine

primary platforms, but that's cuz we

have 18 [ __ ] people working on it,

you know, and I I don't want the the

person that has a content director to

think that they need to be held to that

standard. But for the solo creator, what

I would recommend doing is there's two

frameworks that I think you can use on

to decide what platform to pick as a

solo creator. The first one is what is

my medium that I'm most comfortable with

and what platform prefers that the most.

>> So if you chose audio, I'm not going to

tell you to pick Instagram as your

primary platform, right? And I'm

definitely not going to tell you

Substack, right? And so you want to pick

a platform that is uh applicable for the

medium you chose. Now if you chose

video, lucky you, you get your pick of

the litter, right? Whatever you want,

you can pretty pretty much create for. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh so the next one is where does your

ideal customer, if we're talking about

people that are trying to build their

personal brand to impact their business,

where does your ideal customer spend the

most amount of their time?

>> Yeah. Now, the natural question I

instantly get is, "Well, how do I figure

that out?" And my response that I always

say is, "It's the same way that I find a

metal bar in any city that I'm in. I go

up to somebody who looks like they

listen to metal and I ask them.

>> You just ask." And that's how you start

to learn, right? Like I I've never been

a big Twitter guy or X guy, but I know

that like there's a lot of industry or a

lot of interesting industries and niches

that are very active on X, way more than

any of the other platforms. Meanwhile,

the majority of the creators that are

trying to reach those people are

prioritizing YouTube, Instagram, Tik

Tok. Meanwhile, they'd get way more

traction on X.

>> Yeah. tech startups, VCs

>> big time on the VC and tech startup.

Yeah, huge OnX, right? And that's just

one example.

>> Um, and so that that's how I like to go

about picking it. The same framework

applies to picking the three that you're

going to prioritize. Um, and then what I

like to do is if we're jumping over to

the people with the team,

>> there's three platforms, but if you

don't have a team of 18 people, I think

you have to pick one at a time that you

focus on. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Like I think a lot of people hear

all of these creators that have these

big teams and have these really

wellestablished brands, content systems,

everything talking about posting a

shitload of content everywhere all at once.

once.

>> And I can't read anybody's mind, but I

think the reason why they are saying

that is because they know that 99% of

people will take like 5% at most action

on what they say. So it's like let me

give them the extreme and maybe they'll

post once a week. That's why. But I

don't think that's a good strategy of

like trying to be everywhere at once. So

what we do is like for me, I'll give my

example. We picked YouTube, Instagram,

LinkedIn as our three that we were going

to prioritize. Trevor and I sat down and

we we decided on that.

>> And what Trevor and I decided on because

my background is in video. His

background is mainly in video. We're

going to prioritize YouTube first. I

also believe that for my ideal customer

that is the best platform to build trust

with them.

>> And so we have decided to prioritize I I

use the analogy cuz I like Lord of the

Rings the Eye of Sauron method.

>> So our eye is on YouTube.

>> Now around I'd say May or June we were

like okay we feel like we've got a good

system on this. So then we moved the eye

over to Instagram. Beautiful thing about

this approach, you'll get corrected very

quickly if you moved too fast. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> In I think it was August, we went to

film a video that I did not prepare for

in nearly the level that I should have

or nearly the level that I do for every

other video that we do. We put a lot of

work into these videos. That's why we

only do one a month. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And we sat down to film it

>> and um five minutes into it, I was like,

"This is dog [ __ ] This is not a good

video. I did a horrible job preparing

for this. uh I'm not respecting the

audience's time. And so it was a moment

where we kind of realized, hey, maybe

more so on my end, maybe we don't have

the system down as much as I thought we

did on YouTube. So, we're going to

reorient and put a little bit more focus

on that.

>> The video that's going to come out at

the end of September is going to be a

[ __ ] banger. A long banger, right?

Like a big one. And then the video

that'll come out in October, we were

spending all day in London yesterday

filming. We haven't reviewed the

footage, so we don't know if it's good

yet, but we'll see. But like, we're

putting more effort. We're putting the

focus back there, right?

>> When you shift the eye, it is my opinion

that the other platforms go on what I

just call maintenance mode. This doesn't

mean that you're not posting or not

caring. It means that you're not putting

the attention or resources towards innovation,

innovation,

>> right? You're doing what you know works,

nothing more. Because all of those

resources towards innovation go towards

that platform.

>> I believe every single person minus

maybe like five people listening or

watching get more benefit out of that

than omniresence with mid content

everywhere. Quick one. If you're

enjoying this episode and feel like

you're getting value, I'd love it if you

subscribed. It helps me improve the show

and get bigger and better guests. So if

you're enjoying this episode, make sure

you're subscribed. And how do you

convince someone that that's the right

approach? Because I guess the fear is

they see other people on all these

different platforms and like, oh, so and

so is killing it on LinkedIn and so and

so's killing it on Instagram and on

YouTube someone else is killing it and I

they feel like there's so much

opportunity everywhere. What's the

what's the reality of of spreading

yourself and trying to trying to get the

content to land on all three or four at

the same time?

>> Well, the first thing that came to my

mind when you asked that is I'm not in

the business of convincing. Mhm.

>> You know this better than most. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> If you bring on a client and you're

having to convince them of that, they're

going to be a nightmare client, right?

>> And anybody consuming my content, it's

like, cool, by all means, do it the

other way, right? So, I I just

>> honestly, I guess I just say look at the

track record,

>> right? Cuz I think with a lot of

creators that I've worked for or helped

build, we did the same approach just at

a bigger scale.

>> Yeah. But it's like even the biggest

dogs in the world do this.

>> They don't necessarily maybe they're not

aware of it, right? They're not like

keenly thinking about that or whatever,

but like that's the actual process that

they are following, right? Like all of

these creators on the highest levels at

different times have a platform that

they prefer. different seasons for every

creator that we're all admiring right

now. They have a season where they're

texting or slacking their team about

Instagram or YouTube or Tik Tok. Why is

YouTube down? Right? Like they have a

platform that they are focusing on. They

say that they're doing but they're not. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> I just think that a lot of people

haven't reverse engineered that process

slash a lot of people haven't been on

those teams, you know, and a lot of

people on those teams don't share that

stuff. But that's what I would encourage

people to realize is like they all did

it brick by brick as well.

>> We just see the fully built house.

>> Yeah. And I want to get into what it

what it was like building those teams

and how people can build those teams

later on. Maybe the only thing that's

worth touching on quickly is on those

teams when you see Horoszi and you see

every channel seems to be flying. What's

the scale there? Do do you have

specialists per platform? Yeah. Yeah. I

I believe the best version of this is

you're making content contextual to the

platform. Um and so again, even at the

highest levels, you're going to pick

your primary platforms and you're going

to put your best creative resources to

those platforms.

>> Um I take it a step further. This is

pretty unconventional. I actually like

my creatives to also become my

strategists. Mhm.

>> So, I like the editor who's making

Instagram content in the perfect world

to run Instagram.

>> Yeah. Like when Gary decided

before everybody else uh that Tik Tok

was going to be a big deal and he was

like we're putting resources towards

this when I went from because originally

there was a team of three of us that

were working on Gary's Tik Tok and there

was somebody else that was cming channel

managing and then I was editing and

Avatar was also editing and then

eventually that other individual started

working on another project and I took

over cming. Mhm.

>> I was cutting like seven to eight clips

a day, like shorts a day, and posting

9 to 12 a day, right? Because there was

another creator making more.

>> And that was the biggest growth in my

career because I not only was I close to

the data, I was accountable for it.

>> Like we would post a clip and back then

it's not this way anymore, but back then

on TikTok, you would know I I knew

within 60 seconds. Yeah. if this was a

million plus or less. I knew

>> and I felt it every time that it wasn't.

You know, I'm competitive, too, so that

played into it. But I like the creatives

to be very close to that and to know

because then you start creating

individuals that don't go, "Hey, the

footage isn't working anymore. Our

content doesn't work anymore." And you

create people that go, "Hey, this format

or this topic that we're talking about

is no longer resonating with our

audience. Here's three other ideas that

I want to test out over the next month.

>> And I prefer the latter over the former

all day.

>> Yeah, it's so interesting. I was

listening to uh Founders the episode

about Elon Musk. It's a incredible

podcast. Um incredible episode. And

that's what he does on the factory floor

at uh Tesla is he gets the designers and

the engineers to like sit um you know

within like shouting distance of each

other so that the engineer can tell the

designer that his design is crap.

>> Wow. Um I think it's very much the same

there is is that if you can combine the

two roles, it's just one person, then

there is no like uh someone editing it,

someone posting it, it's that single

responsibility. And again, they're just

like so much closer to the data and the

outcome. And when you post and it flops,

you feel that viscerably. And so if

you're a social media manager and then

uh you then pass your feedback to the

editor and you're relying on the editor

to influence it and have that same feel

for what's popping um I think it's

really tough. So yeah, 100% agree. If

you can if you can combine that role I

think I've seen the same like you'll

have a lot more success. It's hard

though. It is. But it also

the the the other really cool benefit

that that I feel like I probably haven't

talked about enough when I share this is

you invest heavily in that creative.

>> You make them a [ __ ] weapon.

>> Right now the vulnerability is then

they're a weapon that could get pulled

onto another team or go off and do their

own thing.

>> I think that's the best thing in the

world. Right? Like Trevor uh is

leaps and bounds further than he was

when he was just editing.

>> The moment that he started running Tik

Tok, running Instagram, not for me, but

in previous roles, like he learned an

insane amount and grew so much from

that. And now when you have a

conversation with him about content, he

almost never talks about the edit. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And that is a very interesting thing as

an editor, right? like he's talking

about the concept, the hook, the

packaging, how do you end it, like all

of these things. And I think that you

start to create these like gangster

ninjas and if you are a great operator

and you have a great opportunity, then

you can continue to build something that

excites them to be there and so there's

just more firepower on your team. I

think it's a really huge benefit.

>> Let's go on to is it creation that can

start now? So we've we've chosen our platform.

platform. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

How would how did you think about

creating content when you when you started?

>> I would say this is a moment where

people should do what I say, not what I did.

did. >> Okay,

>> Okay,

>> here's why. Um,

come October 2025,

that will mark 17 years of doing this. Mhm.

Mhm. >> Like

>> Like

that is a long time considering my age

and considering the age of like internet

content, right? Like YouTube's 20,

you know, like it's not that far off.

And so in addition to that, due to the

amazing entrepreneurs that I've worked

for, I have spoken to a lot of early

stage entrepreneurs. So I'm keenly aware

of the problems that my ideal customer

is facing.

>> For a lot of people, they might know

just a few.

>> Most people think they know the problems.

problems. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> But they're not actually solving

problems that your ideal customer cares about.

about.

>> Yeah. But the point that I'm getting at

is in my opinion, rather than going to a

hit list of viral content

>> or looking at what all of your

competitors have done and remaking their videos,

videos,

>> I would go to the core and solve very

narrow, painful problems for my ideal customer,

customer,

>> which then reveals a bigger problem

>> that a lead magnet that I have, for

example, solves and then reveals the

bigger problem that my offer solves. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> And as simple as that sounds, if you do

that over and over and over, you're not

going to be, you know, getting millions

of views. You're not going to be the

most followed creator, but I guarantee

you will be making far more money in

your business than the majority of

people that are getting those crazy

views, that do have those massive

followings, because what they are, and

by the way, not all of them. I'm making

a blanket statement here that applies

zero nuance, which I hate. Uh, but here

I go. Those creators, they're optimizing

around views, which means that they're

not doing the things necessary

intentionally to create trust. Some of

them, as an accidental byproduct of what

they're doing, are creating trust.

Amazing, masleto. But for most of them,

they're not.

>> They're just gaining attention, but

there's not enough trust. to the point

that I made earlier that like you

couldn't name them. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> There's like 15 creators faces that I'm

seeing right now that I consume all the

time on my feed,

>> but I could not tell you who they are or

what they do. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah,

that that's why I like doing that and

optimizing around trust.

>> When we're starting to create content,

how should we think about that? That's

that's making a list that's making a

list of all of the problems of my ideal

customer and then starting to make

videos around them.

>> Yeah. And the cool thing is is as long

as you stay in the game, you'll always

be presented usually the same problems

but in different scenarios.

>> Like I guarantee you right now in your

head, you're thinking with all my

podcast clients, hm actually, yeah, it

is like the same five problems. It it

takes place in different ways.

>> Yeah. But that's five different

reoccurring pieces of content and then

every different version of it, the

story, you know, uh insecurity being the

core, you know, this person was insecure

about, you know, how they sounded. This

person was insecure about what they had

to say, how they look, blah blah blah.

Those are all different stories that you

can tell and ways that you can wear the

Nikes every night,

>> right? the way that you can consistently

pair yourself with an idea

over and over again in order for the

audience to inherently associate you

with that idea. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. So, like optimizing around trust.

>> I'm just going to hammer this until I

die. Right. Well, unless I get new

information that says that there's

something better out there than trust.

>> But I'm just going to tell that in a

million different ways. And as long as I

choose to stay in the game, I am going

to be presented with many different

versions of the same problems that I can

help my audience solve.

>> And so when you get down to actually

filming that and posting that, how do

you optimize that to land? Well, do you

advise people to think about hooks or

titles or thumbnails, all of those kind

of things when they when we're starting

out or is it just like record and post? Um,

Um,

whatever is going to get you into the

habit first is what I would say.

>> My fear in answering this with like my

ideal answer is that is a high barrier

to entry and so most people won't enter.

So just make

if you want to go a step further, I

believe that if you're trying to

optimize around trust, what you're

trying to optimize around is giving

people the actions necessary to get the

outcome that you're promising in your

content. Mhm.

>> And so every single thing that you do,

the way you orient your hook, the way

that you structure the video, the

examples you use, and in

post-production, the graphics that you

do or do not use should all be answered

by one question. Does this make it

easier for the viewer to change what

they do or take action

>> after consuming this? That's it.

>> Because if you're an educational creator

trying to grow your business, you want

to build trust. And the way you build

trust is by telling people what to do,

they do it, and they get their outcome.

>> An example I like to use is I have a

truck that I love. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> It's a push start. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Every morning when I go out, I put my

foot on the brake and I hit that button

and it starts. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I trust it. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> But if suddenly I go out there and three

mornings in a row it doesn't start, I

suddenly have less trust. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Very basic example. Same thing applies

to content. M there's almost this trust

bar that that we want to fill where

every time Caleb tells me something or I

see one of his clips, I learn something

and I implement it and it works.

>> And the goal is if you do that over and

over again, when you suddenly make your

audience aware of an offer, they

believe, oh well, everything that

Caleb's told me to do worked, so why

would I not do this? I get more in

return than what I invested with him.

Why would it be any different now that

he's charging me? If anything, it's

going to be even better. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah,

>> that is the the psychology or the the

thinking that you want to build in your

audience. And the way you do that is

just make it easy for them to take action.

action.

Which is why I like telling stories

>> because I do think that stories allow

people to see something in a real life

example. Ideally, they can relate to it

and suddenly they can see themsel doing

that thing. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Again, another way, another tactic to

get them to take action.

>> It's why with the six-hour plus course

that we put out, we made a workbook to

go with it. Like

people that don't know me won't believe

this, but I mean it fully. The goal was

not like some crazy amount of email

capture. I've I've gone on podcasts and

told people how much how many emails

we've gotten, blah blah blah. The goal

was just to make it easier for the

people that actually watch it to do the

things necessary to build their personal brand.

brand.

>> Genuinely, for years, I've had people DM

me asking, "Do you have any resources

blah blah?" And the answer's always

been, "No." This was like, okay, this is

the starting point to be able to have an

answer to that question. Now, the

beautiful byproduct of doing that and

actually having the intention of serving

your audience, not capturing emails. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Is we captured a lot of emails.

>> We got like 28 29,000 people on our

email list. Wow.

>> We haven't promoted it anywhere other

than that video.

>> Wow. The only way you get on right now

is you watch that video, click the link

in the bio or in the description, and

then you enter your email, and we email

the workbook to you. That's it. And we

got like 28 29,000 people off of that.

[ __ ] nuts.

>> That's crazy. Yeah. And that was never

the goal.

>> Hey, I'm going to break down all of

Caleb's strategies and frameworks for

brand building in my next newsletter.

You can get a copy at the link in the

description. So, if you want to

implement Caleb's approach, then check

it out at the link in the description.

But you posted a six-hour video which is

is basically like a course, right? You

posted this to YouTube which is how to

build a brand.

>> We uh I'm getting smarter and so I

realized that how to build a brand was

too general and 99% of it was like

personal brand. So it recently has been

updated to how to build a personal

brand. But yeah, and like

Trevor and I joke about this all the

time. I think I told him maybe a

thousand, maybe 5,000. I can't remember

which one it is. I I kind of blend the

two together, but like either a,000 or

5,000 views was my goal in the first year.

year.

>> I was like, man, if like one or two

people apply to work with us, that'd be

[ __ ] awesome. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> But my goal was for those thousand or

5,000 people to watch it and be like,

"Holy [ __ ] I've never paid for anything

that this was this in-depth."

>> Yeah. that made it this easy for me to

build a personal brand, let alone the

fact that it's free.

>> It seems that one of the big things here

is giving and expecting nothing in return.

return.

How do you think like that? Because I

imagine a lot of people out there

are thinking, "Okay, yeah, I want to

build a personal brand. I want to make

content." And then after two weeks,

they're like, "Damn, I'm I'm paying I'm

paying an editor. I'm paying a social

media manager. When am I going to see

some return? And I guess that then

starts to seep into the content and it's

like bye bye bye. Um that's the

temptation, right?

>> It's just start selling stuff or just

being needy in in what you're creating.

>> Um how do you think about that?

>> I think people got bills to pay. So I

I'll never I'll never fault somebody for

needing to cover uh their family, their

payroll, whatever. That makes sense.

Um, but life is a sequence or series of trade-offs.

trade-offs.

>> And if you're in that position, then you

must know that you're making a big trade.

trade.

>> I recommend to people that you be in a

position if you can to not ask your

audience for anything for like a year,

two years, maybe even three. >> Wow.

>> Wow.

>> Um, think about it this way. If you have

a core established group of friends

and then some new

lady or guy joins and within a week of

getting to know them, they're like,

"Hey, can you come help me uh change my

oil on my car?" And, "Hey, do do you

think you could go pick up my mom from

the airport? She's flying in." Like,

they just start asking you for all these

things. Hey, could you loan me like, you

know, 200 bucks or something? I got this

bill. I get paid next week. I'll pay you back.

back.

>> That's absurd.

Yet, we do that with our audience all

the time. >> Wow.

>> Wow.

>> I think if people started thinking about

developing an audience online, like

building relationships, I think you

would approach it wildly differently.

You don't just go for big asks with

people that you just met, you know,

like, well, at least I don't, I should

say. I I don't want to speak for

everyone listening or watching, but I

don't do that. I like to give.

And then if

something comes back, amazing. Now, the

next natural question that some people

might have and you might be wanting to

ask is like, well, if I'm not naturally

that way, how do I become that way? I

don't know.

>> I am naturally that way. I always have

been. And I've never spent the time

trying to figure out how somebody could

change on that. So if you are a

transactionoriented person and you only

think transactionally, I think the

world's about to get a lot tougher

>> because I think that the transactional

relationship like AI has got all that

[ __ ] covered. I think you know not not

to jump topics real quick, but like I

think you being the most human version

of yourself is the most important part

in this time. And so yeah, I think

that's how you stand out. Um, one of the

other things that people get hung up on,

I'm sure, is

quality. Like setting the bar on what

they put out. How do you how do you

think about that?

I'm the best person to talk about it,

the worst person doing it. Meaning, uh,

we have created this crazy high bar for

ourselves in quality that we now

subjectively hold ourselves to.

Everything I just said was useless

without this uh, breakdown. I believe

that quality is not determined by the

creator but by the consumer.

>> The audience determines what quality is,

not us.

>> Yet, we'll sit around all the time and

say, "This was such a high quality

video." 213 views later.

I don't know if that's true, right? The

audience determines that. And so, I

believe that as a creator, you

understand what your audience deems as

quality by quantity. You put out more to

get the information from your audience

on what they're [ __ ] with and then

you do more of that. Whenever somebody

starts jumping into the like quality conversation,

conversation,

I my alarm goes off immediately.

I believe that if anything, it's we are

doing a really good job of solving this

problem. That's about as far as I go. I

also will say things like, you know, for

example, if we do a high quantity of

content and we put out a lot and we're

getting this information,

some people would say, okay, cool. Now

we can make quality content. What I

would articulate is now we can put more

effort into the content that our

audience has signaled to us that they

want more of and find out if they call

that quality.

>> Cuz ultimately, I mean, like I think

maybe you know Jimmy, Mr. beast knows

what his quality is,

>> but for every one of him, there's like

millions that don't.

>> Like, he is a very, very select few, but

the majority of creators, I don't think,

actually know, you know, and I I'm sure

you see this with clients. Like, there's

people that will make a YouTube video

that have millions of subscribers on

YouTube and they'll be like, "That was a banger.

banger.

>> Biggest flop of the [ __ ] quarter." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Because we don't know. One thing

in your con content that is really good

though is the the quality of the

execution is really high. And I can see

how when we're thinking around brand

uh that's important, right? Because I'm

assuming that Caleb is a premium has a

premium offering. He works with kind of

premium people and he's got a high bar

in terms of the certainly the visual

output of what you create and your

brand. It all looks really coherent and

nice and it feels good.

>> Thanks, man. That means a lot. Thank

you. We try really hard.

>> So there are maybe sub subtle things

like that that are like if there are if

there are kind of messages you're trying

to position yourself a little bit. Are

they important?

>> This is where I did not eat my own dog food.

food. >> Uhhuh.

>> Uhhuh.

>> I actually don't think it matters that much.

much.

>> Mhm. Okay.

>> I think it does. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Like I think this was a moment

where I let my subjective view of what I

assumed the audience expected of me

because of the caliber of people that

I've worked for

>> and what we've done on that scale. And

by the way, never prioritizing

production value over anything in those

roles by any means, but I felt like in

in entering this new phase where I'm

making content, I created this

subjective prison, if you will, that I

have to make stuff that is higher

quality than maybe what I have done

previously or other people in the space.

And I like it. I have that preference.

And so what Trevor and I talk about is

like I'm always optimizing for

longevity. back to what we were talking

about earlier.

>> And so I'm going to stick with it longer

if I'm proud of it.

>> I'm not going to be proud of putting out

a 1080p

one camera angle [ __ ] video that the

lighting's kind of dog [ __ ] on, right?

>> I think most people don't have 16 years

of being in production. So that is not a

uh a handicap that they have to overcome.

overcome.

>> Mhm. So, I would argue we could probably

have similar success if we did things a

little bit more scrappy, more handheld

vlogging in the- moment action. Um, I

think we could. I just I just have a

preference. And again, like more than

getting it exactly how I think is best,

I'm going to do it in a way that I'm

going to stick with the longest,

>> right? Like here's another example. Uh,

all my YouTube buddies were like, "Why

put out a six hour and 22-minute video?

Why not like 12 to 13 videos?

>> That would have been better." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And arguably, this is where I I'll add a

little bit more nuance to why I did it.

You could argue it would actually be

easier to consume and take action on.

The bigger reason behind the the course

was not only to help people, but also a

brand positioning tool. Show me somebody

else that's going to sit there for six

hours and 22 minutes and talk about

personal brand,

>> right? Like immediate differentiator.

And and I don't say that to me like that

sounded like braggadocious. I don't mean

it that way. I mean like anybody can do that.

that.

>> Like if you got it like that, [ __ ]

put that out there. That immediately

separates you from the pack.

>> Yeah. And it's like writing a book. If

if I've heard someone's an author, if my

accountant is an author, I I'm not

reading the book, but I just assume

they're better than the other people.

They must know their stuff. million%.

Could not agree more. Could not. Yeah.

Side note, author is a wildly

>> underrated I believe uh brand

positioning tool.

>> Yeah. 100%.

>> For personal brands. Yeah.

>> The one thing I am hung up on here is

how do you balance

what all the gurus say, which is look in

your niche, look at the top five videos,

look for the outliers, look for the

things that outperformed.

>> Yeah. How do I marry up all that advice

and industry advice and best practice

with originality and delivering on

solving problems for my ideal customer?

>> So, we're serving two different goals here.

here. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> I'm not the guy to talk to if your goal

is to get a lot of views.

>> I'm not that guy.

>> Um, and so my approach is slow and steady.

steady.

>> Yeah. So, it's it's not a game of like

which it's a game of which one can you

stomach more, right?

>> But here's what I will tell you and it's

a little preview for those of you that

are currently on the first journey. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> You optimize around views, you get that

validation and that dopamine and you

think that you're operating off of signal.

signal.

>> You're operating off of noise. Yeah.

>> Unless your business model is just the

content that you are creating even then

maybe. But most of you listening or

watching I'm assuming

you're not your only business model is

not monetizing the content directly

>> and if it is

>> build something in addition to that it's

a very tough I mean it depends on your

goals again nuance I've had a lot of

conversations with founders

>> that are two years in that were

optimizing around the views and the

subscribers and when I ask them how's it

going some of them will say like uh not

that great or whatever. Most of them

will give a very painful response. I

don't know. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> That's awful, right?

>> You think that you have all this signal

because the platform is telling you what

you're making is good

>> and so you keep doing more of that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> But if you're a business owner and your

goal here is to build your business, not

your celebrity, your vanity metrics,

well then why are you tracking those and

optimizing around that? Why aren't we

optimizing around the business and the

outcomes and goals around the business?

>> Right? And so, a great example of this

actually, uh I'm so grateful that we

have this on my channel.

>> Uh we I'm going to compare two videos

that we did. First video was it's called

something like if you struggle with

making content, please watch this. It's

like 12 minutes long. It's me over the

course of a motorcycle trip talking

about the mindset shifts that I had to

make in going from being the guy behind

the camera to being in front of the camera.

camera.

>> Yeah. So, that video went out. Uh, that

has, I think, like 95,000 views right

now, which, you know, for a lot of

people that's nothing. Uh, for some

people that's an insane amount. For us,

it's our second most viewed video.

>> Amazing. We then put out another video

the next month on how to lead a media team.

team. >> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> Not how to build one, but how to lead

one that already exists.

>> Yeah, I saw that.

>> Okay. Thank you.

>> That has less than 12,000 views. It's

our lowest performing video and probably

will be one of our lowest performing of

all time.

>> And if we just looked at that, we would

stop making that video and we would just

only make the former the first video. Right.

Right.

>> But here's where it gets interesting. No

clients reached out from the >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> struggling with content video. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> None.

>> None.

Some of them would mention like how cool

or whatever like it was cinema but none

showed interest. The clients that we

work with

their brand and creative directors all

reached out and a lot of personal brands

that we aspire to work with their teams

reached out

>> and asked a lot more questions. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And most of them shared like pages of

notes that they took from it. >> Wow.

>> Wow.

wildly different.

>> If we listen to what YouTube is telling

us and by like the YouTube data is

telling us, we would stop doing that and

make the other

>> and we'd be burning my business to the

ground because of it. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> This is what so many people that are

listening and watching are doing right

now. They're spending a either a lot for

them or a lot just in general on a

content team. They're putting time in

their precious week that could be used

for building the business to make this

content. And it's content that is

bringing in audience that will never

[ __ ] buy from you. What a waste.

>> Yeah. It's insane. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Insane.

>> Insane.

>> Yeah. So, you know, you know, listen to

the gurus all you want. Uh you're going

to get results. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> They're not wrong. By the way, the

everyone talking about going, they're

not wrong. They're really [ __ ] good

at it.

I just don't think that that is the

thing to optimize around.

>> Now, the 2.0 of this conversation that I

never really share is like, cool,

optimize around trust, then gain all the

tactics from those viral gurus or

whatever. Take the things that apply to

what you're making and then get more

awareness around the problems that you solve.

solve.

>> But that's why I like to wow, I just

spat a lot. That's why I like to

optimize around trust. have views.

>> Yeah. I'm excited to share that this

podcast is produced by my own content

agency, 7X Content. We make incredible

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the link in the description. So, what

should we be tracking every week? I'm

super interested in that. And then how

do we judge this the success of our content?

content?

>> Track conversions.

Now, how you do this, I'm not the guy.

Like that's that's, you know, talk to a

hardcore marketing individual. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> They're far more in-depth uh and aware

of the current way of doing this. But

what I recommend is track conversions.

Now, for some of you, you have like a

full team and like a genius marketer

that the moment you say that, oh yeah,

boom, done. UTM links in place. We got

this all this [ __ ] in HubSpot or

whatever the [ __ ] you use. We can track

the customer journey from YouTube video

to purchase. Amazing. Most of us, myself

included right now, do not have that

system in place, right? And so you can

get very very basic with it.

>> If you have some sort of application

that people submit to work with you, ask

them how they found out about you.

>> Right? Uh, a question that I usually

like to ask on a discovery call with

somebody is not how did you hear about

me because that's a little bit more

basic and I don't really care about that

as much as I care about what was the

piece of content that you watched that

made you feel enough trust to want to

work with us

>> that like what convinced you. Yeah.

>> What was the I think it's Malcolm

Gladwell's term like what was the

tipping point for you? Right.

>> That's what I'm looking for. And so like

that is a very basic way to do it, but

it's the way that I'm doing it right

now. You know, you can set up all these

different uh custom URLs, you know, your website.com/youtube

website.com/youtube

or whatever, and that can be your link

in bio. Like there's other ways that you

can do it. If you are in a place right

now where you don't have an offer for

the masses, a great way to see if that

if you have a audience or you're growing

an audience that will actually take

action on what you say is have a lead magnet,

magnet,

>> right? and then track the conversions on

the lead magnet.

>> What percentage of the audience that's

consuming the content is then going and

taking action to download something,

right? Because if that behavior is

there, well then in the future, you can

assume not at the same rate but at a

similar rate, you're probably going to

have success with an offer that you make

people aware of.

>> Do you let's say you're running a

a team uh or you're involved with a team.

team. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

Do you have a weekly call and and you're

looking at the content performance? What

what do you recommend people track in

terms of views,

AVD? H how do they find out what's

working and make more of it?

>> If you're tracking stuff that isn't

informing any sort of change, that is noise.

noise.

>> And we've all looked at those dashboards

with like 130 different metrics being

tracked. And guess what we do? We get

overwhelmed. I like some people are data

nerds and they love that [ __ ] Not me.

Like I can't make a decision off of

that. I need to see just a very few

basic metrics and then and this is where

like again nuance. I like to do that and

then anything that interests me then

I'll go more specific on it. Right? then

I will start to look under the hood, so

to speak, to use a US term here. Like

that's what I really like to do.

>> And so I would encourage people figure

out what those things are for you,

right? Like I care deeply about average

view duration on YouTube. I I mean, what

a novel thing for me to say, right? Like

what everybody says, but I care about it

honestly more than for like the

performance of the YouTube video. I just

want every person that decides to watch

the content, like every minute in our

content is there for a reason.

>> I want you to get the outcome and so I

want you to be there longer. And so

that's something that we want to track

and see going up over time, right? I

also believe that the more time that you

spend with me, the more you're going to

trust me. That might be an audacious

assumption of mine. I don't know. But I

tend to think that we are very um

ruthless with what we decide to put out

there. In August, we put out a

two-minute video where I apologized for

that [ __ ] video that I was talking about that we didn't end up releasing. And I

that we didn't end up releasing. And I was like, we should just respect the

was like, we should just respect the audience's time. We should aim for a

audience's time. We should aim for a high value per minute, right?

high value per minute, right? >> So, I that's what I would encourage you

>> So, I that's what I would encourage you to do. The way I like to do it on a team

to do. The way I like to do it on a team meeting is if it's a smaller team, uh,

meeting is if it's a smaller team, uh, and we don't have like a bunch of

and we don't have like a bunch of platform specific creators that are

platform specific creators that are owning the individual platforms, we're

owning the individual platforms, we're still in the mode where we have a couple

still in the mode where we have a couple people creating for everything. Then I

people creating for everything. Then I I'll do like one weekly meeting where

I'll do like one weekly meeting where we're reviewing those metrics. And then

we're reviewing those metrics. And then here's the key. 99 100% basically minus

here's the key. 99 100% basically minus a few are not doing this. What are you

a few are not doing this. What are you going to do because of that? Mhm.

going to do because of that? Mhm. >> Most teams just look at the data and

>> Most teams just look at the data and they're like, "All right, cool. Uh,

they're like, "All right, cool. Uh, we're up this week. Oh, we're down this

we're up this week. Oh, we're down this week. All right, we got to do better,

week. All right, we got to do better, guys.

guys. That's not useful, right? So, we need to

That's not useful, right? So, we need to figure out, okay, based on this

figure out, okay, based on this information, what are we going to do

information, what are we going to do differently?"

differently?" >> And I would argue that's the most

>> And I would argue that's the most important part of the meeting. And some

important part of the meeting. And some people are going to hear this and

people are going to hear this and they'll put the last five minutes of

they'll put the last five minutes of their meeting to be like, "All right,

their meeting to be like, "All right, we're going to give ownership to

we're going to give ownership to people." This should be like half the

people." This should be like half the [ __ ] meeting. Mhm.

[ __ ] meeting. Mhm. >> And like it doesn't need to be reserved

>> And like it doesn't need to be reserved for when [ __ ] is not going well.

for when [ __ ] is not going well. >> When everything's up, what are we going

>> When everything's up, what are we going to do more of?

to do more of? >> Right? What are we going to put more

>> Right? What are we going to put more effort into, more resources towards?

effort into, more resources towards? That's how I like to run it. If you have

That's how I like to run it. If you have a really big team and then you have

a really big team and then you have like, you know, a YouTube function over

like, you know, a YouTube function over here, Instagram, Tik Tok, podcast, all

here, Instagram, Tik Tok, podcast, all of that, then cool. I do a top level

of that, then cool. I do a top level review for like 30 minutes with the

review for like 30 minutes with the whole team because I do like everyone to

whole team because I do like everyone to have context. It's really nice when the

have context. It's really nice when the Instagram creator knows that like

Instagram creator knows that like YouTube is doing well or not doing well.

YouTube is doing well or not doing well. I think it's really important. I think

I think it's really important. I think it's good.

it's good. >> But anything granular not necessary. So

>> But anything granular not necessary. So then I like to break it out into the

then I like to break it out into the core functions. So like the Instagram

core functions. So like the Instagram team will meet and they will go wildly

team will meet and they will go wildly deep.

deep. >> And I I encourage this to be like a 30

>> And I I encourage this to be like a 30 60 minute meeting. And I know that's

60 minute meeting. And I know that's expensive. It's a very expensive

expensive. It's a very expensive meeting, but this is a very expensive

meeting, but this is a very expensive investment you're making, right? Like,

investment you're making, right? Like, let's be thoughtful with it. So, that's

let's be thoughtful with it. So, that's how I like to run those. From there, you

how I like to run those. From there, you can add brainstorm meetings and all of

can add brainstorm meetings and all of that, but you want to be very careful

that, but you want to be very careful that you don't add too many meetings. A

that you don't add too many meetings. A mistake that I made earlier on in

mistake that I made earlier on in running,

running, this was a big mistake, I started adding

this was a big mistake, I started adding way too many meetings throughout the

way too many meetings throughout the week. And in the beginning, I didn't

week. And in the beginning, I didn't stack them all on like one or two days.

stack them all on like one or two days. And so my poor editors would have like a

And so my poor editors would have like a meeting on Thursday at 11:00 a.m.,

meeting on Thursday at 11:00 a.m., Wednesday at 3 p.m., like all throughout

Wednesday at 3 p.m., like all throughout the day. And it would break everything

the day. And it would break everything up for them. And it was like this weird

up for them. And it was like this weird moment where I just like completely lost

moment where I just like completely lost touch with like the first 13 14 years of

touch with like the first 13 14 years of my career where I was an editor. I hated

my career where I was an editor. I hated meetings, right? They were awful. They

meetings, right? They were awful. They took me off my game. So that that would

took me off my game. So that that would be one thing that I would add here is I

be one thing that I would add here is I know I just said for the bigger teams

know I just said for the bigger teams have a full team and then break out but

have a full team and then break out but be careful that you don't add too many

be careful that you don't add too many because you will slow down the momentum

because you will slow down the momentum and end up discouraging your team.

and end up discouraging your team. >> What are the other fundamental things in

>> What are the other fundamental things in the process that that people should

the process that that people should have?

have? >> Which process?

>> Which process? >> The content creation and review and

>> The content creation and review and continuous improvement.

continuous improvement. >> I'll give you one that's really wild. If

>> I'll give you one that's really wild. If you're the talent, get to a place as

you're the talent, get to a place as quick as possible where you're not

quick as possible where you're not reviewing the content.

reviewing the content. >> How do you do that?

>> How do you do that? >> Well, one, it's an insane level of trust

>> Well, one, it's an insane level of trust that you have to have, which means you

that you have to have, which means you have to have somebody on your team that

have to have somebody on your team that you really trust.

you really trust. >> Um, I'll give you insight. We're not at

>> Um, I'll give you insight. We're not at that point yet. And it's not due to me

that point yet. And it's not due to me not trusting Trevor. It's me having been

not trusting Trevor. It's me having been behind the scenes for 16 years and

behind the scenes for 16 years and knowing all the tiny little things that

knowing all the tiny little things that could go wrong. And so I'm at a place

could go wrong. And so I'm at a place where I don't trust myself enough yet.

where I don't trust myself enough yet. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Um and that's but that is what we are

>> Um and that's but that is what we are aiming for

aiming for >> massively.

>> massively. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Uh what I will say is in my previous

>> Uh what I will say is in my previous role, he was leading the shorts

role, he was leading the shorts initiative and I got to a point where I

initiative and I got to a point where I didn't review any of the shorts. The

didn't review any of the shorts. The talent that we were working for didn't

talent that we were working for didn't review the shorts and I didn't either. I

review the shorts and I didn't either. I only reviewed long form content. Yeah.

only reviewed long form content. Yeah. >> And that was it. And the efficiencies

>> And that was it. And the efficiencies gained by that were massive because

gained by that were massive because every single and I know it's not a lot

every single and I know it's not a lot of people but every single person

of people but every single person listening right now that runs a creative

listening right now that runs a creative team you are the bottleneck and that is

team you are the bottleneck and that is the worst thing in the world. If your

the worst thing in the world. If your team is like I can't do blank because so

team is like I can't do blank because so and so hasn't reviewed it yet.

and so hasn't reviewed it yet. >> Woo big problem right? And so I try to

>> Woo big problem right? And so I try to remove that as much as possible. Aka you

remove that as much as possible. Aka you as the talent should not be the friction

as the talent should not be the friction point.

point. >> And is the key there to hire one person

>> And is the key there to hire one person to build out your content team?

to build out your content team? >> I am so grateful you went here. A lot of

>> I am so grateful you went here. A lot of you won't be able to do what I'm about

you won't be able to do what I'm about to say. I'm going to give you the best

to say. I'm going to give you the best version and then we can go back to more

version and then we can go back to more practicality. The best version is you do

practicality. The best version is you do what I did and you hire the content

what I did and you hire the content director first that you believe in

director first that you believe in fully, trust fully and want to build out

fully, trust fully and want to build out your content team.

your content team. >> That is Trevor for me.

>> That is Trevor for me. >> Like I I trust that man with everything.

>> Like I I trust that man with everything. And I feel very confident in his

And I feel very confident in his abilities and the rate of progress that

abilities and the rate of progress that he is making in his career is like

he is making in his career is like insane. And so I knew from day one, well

insane. And so I knew from day one, well actually more like month two because in

actually more like month two because in Full transparency, day one, I was like,

Full transparency, day one, I was like, Trevor, we're going to try this out and

Trevor, we're going to try this out and see if I'm comfortable with making

see if I'm comfortable with making content, right? So, that's the real real

content, right? So, that's the real real about like month two or month three.

about like month two or month three. Then I was like, cool. I don't think

Then I was like, cool. I don't think we're just going to make little videos,

we're just going to make little videos, you and I. I think we're going to build

you and I. I think we're going to build out a team.

out a team. >> And every month that we make more

>> And every month that we make more content, that vision starts to grow more

content, that vision starts to grow more and more and I can see, you know, more

and more and I can see, you know, more for that. But I won't be building the

for that. But I won't be building the media team. He will.

media team. He will. >> Right? And that's what every single

>> Right? And that's what every single person who is embarking on this journey.

person who is embarking on this journey. The best version of this is you hire

The best version of this is you hire somebody that can build it for you. You

somebody that can build it for you. You don't have to get in and learn all the

don't have to get in and learn all the technical terms and blah blah blah blah

technical terms and blah blah blah blah blah. You don't have to be up todate

blah. You don't have to be up todate with everything all the time. They do.

with everything all the time. They do. >> She does. He does. Right? And that's

>> She does. He does. Right? And that's what you want to hire first. I I I

what you want to hire first. I I I believe in it the most. And I'll put my

believe in it the most. And I'll put my my money where my mouth is. He was my

my money where my mouth is. He was my first hire.

first hire. >> The first month of me having my

>> The first month of me having my business, he joined the team. That was

business, he joined the team. That was my first investment, not anything else.

my first investment, not anything else. That is how important I think this is.

That is how important I think this is. The majority of people, this is where

The majority of people, this is where we're going now, is the the more

we're going now, is the the more practical, but the unfortunate version

practical, but the unfortunate version is most of you are building out

is most of you are building out functions and silos.

functions and silos. >> Yeah. So what you do is you hire some

>> Yeah. So what you do is you hire some YouTube characters over here, some short

YouTube characters over here, some short form characters here, podcast person

form characters here, podcast person here, maybe a freelance copywriter. None

here, maybe a freelance copywriter. None of them are coordinated together

of them are coordinated together >> and it's just this wonderful [ __ ] show.

>> and it's just this wonderful [ __ ] show. And I mean at the highest levels of

And I mean at the highest levels of creators right now, this is happening.

creators right now, this is happening. >> This is what we get hired to help with.

>> This is what we get hired to help with. and they have this wild thing that

and they have this wild thing that somehow they've gotten to millions of

somehow they've gotten to millions of followers online and it's just like

followers online and it's just like chaos behind the scenes. And so the best

chaos behind the scenes. And so the best version is you hire that person and they

version is you hire that person and they build it out. But then if you can't do

build it out. But then if you can't do that then as quickly as possible you

that then as quickly as possible you want to hire that person to come in and

want to hire that person to come in and clean up the mess. Because if you do

clean up the mess. Because if you do this for five years like some of the

this for five years like some of the people,

people, >> it is a very very gnarly mess to

>> it is a very very gnarly mess to untangle.

untangle. >> Very very difficult, right? And then you

>> Very very difficult, right? And then you know to get granular for a second

know to get granular for a second there's this like weird resentment that

there's this like weird resentment that grows on the team because they're not

grows on the team because they're not being taken into account or blah blah

being taken into account or blah blah blah blah blah. They don't aka they

blah blah blah. They don't aka they don't have one person that is advocating

don't have one person that is advocating for them, right? They don't have

for them, right? They don't have somebody who is on their behalf building

somebody who is on their behalf building an environment that allows them to do

an environment that allows them to do their best work. They're having to

their best work. They're having to create that environment while also doing

create that environment while also doing their best work.

their best work. >> They're serving two functions and 99.9%

>> They're serving two functions and 99.9% of them are not good at that first one.

of them are not good at that first one. >> Let's talk about working with Alex and

>> Let's talk about working with Alex and Laya Hormosi. Yeah.

Laya Hormosi. Yeah. >> What are some of the biggest lessons you

>> What are some of the biggest lessons you learned working with them?

learned working with them? >> I'll start with Ila. Um there's a lot of

>> I'll start with Ila. Um there's a lot of really great things I learned from her.

really great things I learned from her. I think my favorite one that I always

I think my favorite one that I always share is her level of preparation for

share is her level of preparation for new employees.

new employees. >> I think because I've been in several

>> I think because I've been in several different types of organizations,

different types of organizations, I can speak to this pretty confidently.

I can speak to this pretty confidently. Most orgs do not have clear expectations

Most orgs do not have clear expectations set for new employees. And your new

set for new employees. And your new employee then exists in this world of

employee then exists in this world of anxiety for 2 to four weeks. They don't

anxiety for 2 to four weeks. They don't know what is expected of them. I mean,

know what is expected of them. I mean, hell, I had I've had two different roles

hell, I had I've had two different roles that I started in the past where I

that I started in the past where I didn't even have like a company computer

didn't even have like a company computer or accounts for the first two weeks.

or accounts for the first two weeks. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> I'm like sitting there twiddling my

>> I'm like sitting there twiddling my thumbs being like, "What the [ __ ] do I

thumbs being like, "What the [ __ ] do I do?" And something that she said that I

do?" And something that she said that I just I will never forget is your biggest

just I will never forget is your biggest goal

goal when hiring somebody is not to motivate

when hiring somebody is not to motivate them. It's actually to get the [ __ ] out

them. It's actually to get the [ __ ] out of the way and not demotivate them. You

of the way and not demotivate them. You need to steamroll everything around them

need to steamroll everything around them and clear the way for them to do their

and clear the way for them to do their thing. Like we just brought on an

thing. Like we just brought on an amazing chief of staff, Kate. She's

amazing chief of staff, Kate. She's awesome. And my whole thing has been

awesome. And my whole thing has been like, "Let me get out of your way and

like, "Let me get out of your way and not slow you down. I don't need to

not slow you down. I don't need to motivate you. You're coming in

motivate you. You're coming in motivated." Right? Like if you're hiring

motivated." Right? Like if you're hiring correctly, they're coming in motivated.

correctly, they're coming in motivated. Your job is to not slow them down, not

Your job is to not slow them down, not to be their bottleneck.

to be their bottleneck. >> I think that's that is probably the

>> I think that's that is probably the biggest one. Like when I I'd say two

biggest one. Like when I I'd say two weeks before I even started, I knew what

weeks before I even started, I knew what my first 90 days were going to look

my first 90 days were going to look like. That's insane, right? Cuz then you

like. That's insane, right? Cuz then you get to start planning. You hit the

get to start planning. You hit the ground running. You're not slowed down

ground running. You're not slowed down in any way. On Alex's front, uh the

in any way. On Alex's front, uh the level of effort to make something great,

level of effort to make something great, you know, again, I will say the same

you know, again, I will say the same thing every time because it I'll never

thing every time because it I'll never be able to unsee it. The 19 versions of

be able to unsee it. The 19 versions of leads, it was insane. He wrote it 19

leads, it was insane. He wrote it 19 different times that I'm aware of. It

different times that I'm aware of. It might be more. Um, but that was nuts to

might be more. Um, but that was nuts to see. And it's no surprise that it's a

see. And it's no surprise that it's a product that then sells itself.

product that then sells itself. >> Rather than building something meh and

>> Rather than building something meh and then marketing the hell out of it, put

then marketing the hell out of it, put all the effort into the actual product

all the effort into the actual product and the product will market itself. And

and the product will market itself. And so I'm not anywhere near that right now,

so I'm not anywhere near that right now, but when we're making a video and we're

but when we're making a video and we're outlining, I'm really thinking about

outlining, I'm really thinking about that. How can I push the envelope on

that. How can I push the envelope on make like where would other people stop?

make like where would other people stop? And I guess to sound corny, that's when

And I guess to sound corny, that's when I want to start, you know. What's up,

I want to start, you know. What's up, guys? I have a lot of fun making this

guys? I have a lot of fun making this podcast, and I'd love to hear from you.

podcast, and I'd love to hear from you. So, if there's something you're

So, if there's something you're particularly enjoying or someone you'd

particularly enjoying or someone you'd love to hear from, then let me know in

love to hear from, then let me know in the comments. And equally, if there's

the comments. And equally, if there's anything you don't like that we're

anything you don't like that we're doing, let me know in the comments and

doing, let me know in the comments and we will make this show bigger and better

we will make this show bigger and better for you. With Alex and Ila, how often is

for you. With Alex and Ila, how often is someone like that sitting down and

someone like that sitting down and filming and looking at content and how

filming and looking at content and how involved are they?

involved are they? I can't speak to right now because I am

I can't speak to right now because I am not working with them, but um at the

not working with them, but um at the time I'd say Leila ebbed and flowed

time I'd say Leila ebbed and flowed because she was running the business,

because she was running the business, right? Mhm.

right? Mhm. >> And I think that's an interesting thing

>> And I think that's an interesting thing uh on the behind the scenes that I give

uh on the behind the scenes that I give a lot of credit to the team for is being

a lot of credit to the team for is being able to balance one month having a

able to balance one month having a little bit more time and access and then

little bit more time and access and then another month where it's like hey we got

another month where it's like hey we got bigger priorities right now on the

bigger priorities right now on the business and that's where the time is

business and that's where the time is being allocated. M

being allocated. M >> so uh I would say that one the constant

>> so uh I would say that one the constant was reverse engineering her schedule and

was reverse engineering her schedule and that was the framework right and I think

that was the framework right and I think that's a beautiful thing to be able to

that's a beautiful thing to be able to create an environment in that way with

create an environment in that way with Alex um he would spend a lot of time

Alex um he would spend a lot of time writing not not a lot of time I

writing not not a lot of time I shouldn't say that but a lot more time

shouldn't say that but a lot more time than I probably think a lot of people

than I probably think a lot of people assume

assume >> and then they go off to make content

>> and then they go off to make content maybe prep for 20 minutes

maybe prep for 20 minutes >> and think they're going to get the same

>> and think they're going to get the same results, but there's a lot more prep

results, but there's a lot more prep that goes into it. And actually,

that goes into it. And actually, something literally that's coming to me

something literally that's coming to me right now is I actually think

right now is I actually think individuals who write and who are

individuals who write and who are authors and are constantly either

authors and are constantly either writing a a book, working on the next

writing a a book, working on the next book, or writing a presentation, they

book, or writing a presentation, they get very good at being able to

get very good at being able to crystallize ideas and thoughts. And so

crystallize ideas and thoughts. And so they are capable of forming those into a

they are capable of forming those into a video outline for example fairly quickly

video outline for example fairly quickly >> because like what people might think is

>> because like what people might think is like oh there's an hour slot on the

like oh there's an hour slot on the calendar to prep this concept. But what

calendar to prep this concept. But what they don't realize is the years of

they don't realize is the years of >> refining that concept and honing that in

>> refining that concept and honing that in as far as how we would film typically uh

as far as how we would film typically uh every two weeks for

every two weeks for either a half day or a full day. And

either a half day or a full day. And typically a full day was like 10 hours.

typically a full day was like 10 hours. >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> And yeah, and um you know, if if you can

>> And yeah, and um you know, if if you can take any cues from the way that Alex

take any cues from the way that Alex writes, he also can film that way.

writes, he also can film that way. >> You know,

>> You know, >> incredible stamina is how I will put it.

>> incredible stamina is how I will put it. >> What's the longest you ever filmed for?

>> What's the longest you ever filmed for? >> I don't know. Probably probably a

>> I don't know. Probably probably a 12-hour session.

12-hour session. >> Uhhuh.

>> Uhhuh. >> 12 hour session with very minimal

>> 12 hour session with very minimal breaks, though. like 12 hours that look

breaks, though. like 12 hours that look fundamentally different than most

fundamentally different than most people's 12-hour filming session and

people's 12-hour filming session and walking away with a shitload of long

walking away with a shitload of long form, short form, uh, and podcast

form, short form, uh, and podcast ccentric content.

ccentric content. >> And then with that with that content, is

>> And then with that with that content, is he writing it? Is he coming up with the

he writing it? Is he coming up with the ideas or are you guys coming up with

ideas or are you guys coming up with them and presenting them to him? How

them and presenting them to him? How does that work? Yeah. Again, I I don't

does that work? Yeah. Again, I I don't know how they're doing it right now, but

know how they're doing it right now, but uh basically our team would create more

uh basically our team would create more of a structured framework.

of a structured framework. >> The best content and trust me, I'm we're

>> The best content and trust me, I'm we're trying to solve this. I'm constantly

trying to solve this. I'm constantly thinking about this,

thinking about this, but I think there's this like level of

but I think there's this like level of desire that people have and and kind of

desire that people have and and kind of not your intention, but a lot of

not your intention, but a lot of people's intention behind the question

people's intention behind the question is like like how much can I have my team

is like like how much can I have my team write the content for me?

write the content for me? And the best content from the best

And the best content from the best creators is written by them.

creators is written by them. >> Because if your team could articulate

>> Because if your team could articulate the same thoughts and concepts in the

the same thoughts and concepts in the way that you could, they'd be just as

way that you could, they'd be just as big and successful as you.

big and successful as you. >> So why would you outsource? It's the

>> So why would you outsource? It's the same problem I have right now with

same problem I have right now with everybody having Chad GBT write all

everybody having Chad GBT write all their content. Like why are we

their content. Like why are we outsourcing our thinking, right? And so

outsourcing our thinking, right? And so I think a very useful thing that I like

I think a very useful thing that I like to do for anybody that we work with is

to do for anybody that we work with is like let's get them to third base with

like let's get them to third base with the structure and the the format but

the structure and the the format but then let's let them input their thoughts

then let's let them input their thoughts and beliefs

and beliefs >> cuz the other thing I'm sure you've

>> cuz the other thing I'm sure you've experienced this for yourself

experienced this for yourself >> over time in creating content your ideas

>> over time in creating content your ideas and concepts evolve. It's not that they

and concepts evolve. It's not that they necessarily change, although that

necessarily change, although that happens too and that's perfectly fine.

happens too and that's perfectly fine. But a lot of times we get better at

But a lot of times we get better at communicating them in a slightly

communicating them in a slightly different way.

different way. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> But your team can't know that. They can

>> But your team can't know that. They can only create based on things that have

only create based on things that have been said previously, which is a great,

been said previously, which is a great, you know, first step. And if that's all

you know, first step. And if that's all you can do right now with your team,

you can do right now with your team, cool. By all means, do it. But the best

cool. By all means, do it. But the best version of this is going to be you

version of this is going to be you putting your thoughts to paper. So, is

putting your thoughts to paper. So, is the best version of that me saying, "Hey

the best version of that me saying, "Hey team, I want to do these five YouTube

team, I want to do these five YouTube videos on these topics."

videos on these topics." >> Uh, the best version of it is you don't

>> Uh, the best version of it is you don't have to push, you're pulled. So, you

have to push, you're pulled. So, you have a team who reaches out to you and

have a team who reaches out to you and says, "Hey, Callum, can you send us a

says, "Hey, Callum, can you send us a voice note or however you like to

voice note or however you like to communicate? I don't like writing nearly

communicate? I don't like writing nearly as much, so I like voice notes more."

as much, so I like voice notes more." Um, what's top of mind? What's been

Um, what's top of mind? What's been interesting in the last week or two?

interesting in the last week or two? What have you noticed in the space? What

What have you noticed in the space? What have been interesting conversations with

have been interesting conversations with employees, with contractors, with

employees, with contractors, with clients? Um any new learnings, any new

clients? Um any new learnings, any new thoughts?

thoughts? >> They're getting that from you on a

>> They're getting that from you on a bi-weekly or weekly basis.

bi-weekly or weekly basis. >> Yeah. Nice.

>> Yeah. Nice. >> And then they're taking that and

>> And then they're taking that and creating a structure around it, coming

creating a structure around it, coming up with the packaging to be able to

up with the packaging to be able to indicate like, hey, this is going to

indicate like, hey, this is going to perform well. Ideally, databacked

perform well. Ideally, databacked packaging. And real quick, just so

packaging. And real quick, just so nobody thinks I'm contradicting, look at

nobody thinks I'm contradicting, look at ideas outside of your niche.

ideas outside of your niche. Stop just taking the bigger creator in

Stop just taking the bigger creator in your space and [ __ ] doing what they

your space and [ __ ] doing what they do. You You'll never be number one that

do. You You'll never be number one that way. In my opinion, you will always at

way. In my opinion, you will always at most be number two. So, if you and the

most be number two. So, if you and the other benefit to doing the top of- mind

other benefit to doing the top of- mind thing that again, I'm all about

thing that again, I'm all about longevity. You're going to be more

longevity. You're going to be more excited about it. M

excited about it. M >> I don't know how you guys work on like

>> I don't know how you guys work on like with clients and stuff like that, but I

with clients and stuff like that, but I know I've drafted outlines for videos

know I've drafted outlines for videos for people and a month later we go to

for people and a month later we go to film it and they're no longer excited

film it and they're no longer excited about it. They could give two shits

about it. They could give two shits about that topic. They've already moved

about that topic. They've already moved on to something else. The best version

on to something else. The best version of content in my opinion is going to be

of content in my opinion is going to be whatever you're most excited about and

whatever you're most excited about and is top of mind in that moment.

is top of mind in that moment. But you're only going to or your team is

But you're only going to or your team is only going to know that if they're

only going to know that if they're pulling that information from you. And

pulling that information from you. And so like anybody who has a team that is

so like anybody who has a team that is listening or watching, tell your team to

listening or watching, tell your team to every week pull that information from

every week pull that information from you.

you. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Now I'm all for, you know, you're in it.

>> Now I'm all for, you know, you're in it. So if you're on YouTube and you see

So if you're on YouTube and you see something and you're like, "Yo, team,

something and you're like, "Yo, team, yeah, by all means share that." Like I

yeah, by all means share that." Like I always want that information. And I

always want that information. And I always want those opinions, but I don't

always want those opinions, but I don't want to build a system where the talent

want to build a system where the talent who is most likely running a business

who is most likely running a business has to be that person. I think it's on

has to be that person. I think it's on the team in an ideal scenario to be

the team in an ideal scenario to be presenting, hey, you know, we just

presenting, hey, you know, we just noticed this new emerging format in this

noticed this new emerging format in this niche. We really want to experiment with

niche. We really want to experiment with it. Here's three different videos to

it. Here's three different videos to show you previous success from other

show you previous success from other creators. Are you down to try this? And

creators. Are you down to try this? And then you put the ball in their court to

then you put the ball in their court to decide. It shouldn't be on them in an

decide. It shouldn't be on them in an ideal world to be the one being like hey

ideal world to be the one being like hey team I have this idea right it should be

team I have this idea right it should be in reverse unfortunately the majority of

in reverse unfortunately the majority of you watching or listening it is not that

you watching or listening it is not that way you are the one that is pushing now

way you are the one that is pushing now you know nuance uh Gary for example is

you know nuance uh Gary for example is the one that pushes

the one that pushes >> like

>> like I think he yeah he is the only role that

I think he yeah he is the only role that I've been in where we were not pushing

I've been in where we were not pushing the innovation in any like it was in any

the innovation in any like it was in any way the team was pushing innovation but

way the team was pushing innovation but Gary is like on another level with that

Gary is like on another level with that [ __ ] and so like we weren't like hey gee

[ __ ] and so like we weren't like hey gee Tik Tok might be a thing hey g LinkedIn

Tik Tok might be a thing hey g LinkedIn like he's the one driving that he was

like he's the one driving that he was the one like again you know it gets

the one like again you know it gets misunderstood sometimes like you know

misunderstood sometimes like you know guy running Gary's Tik Tok or whatever

guy running Gary's Tik Tok or whatever to be very clear Gary one day was

to be very clear Gary one day was sitting in his office walked out of his

sitting in his office walked out of his office opened the door and said we are

office opened the door and said we are prioritizing Tik Tok. I don't care what

prioritizing Tik Tok. I don't care what we have to do. This is number one

we have to do. This is number one priority right now. This is going to be

priority right now. This is going to be the biggest thing.

the biggest thing. >> And this was like 2018, 2019. Like crazy

>> And this was like 2018, 2019. Like crazy [ __ ] right? Um, so there's unique

[ __ ] right? Um, so there's unique characters like that. I think in Trevor

characters like that. I think in Trevor and I's dynamic, I would say Trevor

and I's dynamic, I would say Trevor brings more ideas to me, but I am going

brings more ideas to me, but I am going to bring ideas to him because I'm in

to bring ideas to him because I'm in this world, right? I can't escape it.

this world, right? I can't escape it. It's literally what my brain does 247.

It's literally what my brain does 247. But for most people, they aren't. They

But for most people, they aren't. They don't have a background in content.

don't have a background in content. They're running a, you know, plumbing

They're running a, you know, plumbing business or a, you know, they have a

business or a, you know, they have a marketing agency or a podcast agency and

marketing agency or a podcast agency and the best use of their time is focusing

the best use of their time is focusing on the clients.

on the clients. >> And so they need a team that can get

>> And so they need a team that can get them again to use that analogy to third

them again to use that analogy to third base. So then they can round it home.

base. So then they can round it home. >> Yeah. But equally, one thing I found

>> Yeah. But equally, one thing I found works really nicely h is that as you

works really nicely h is that as you say, if they've got that communication

say, if they've got that communication channel, whether it's WhatsApp or Slack,

channel, whether it's WhatsApp or Slack, and then they've just had the client

and then they've just had the client call and they can just voice note or

call and they can just voice note or they can video and be like, you know, I

they can video and be like, you know, I come up with this every damn day. All

come up with this every damn day. All these people have this exact same

these people have this exact same problem or there's this one thing I just

problem or there's this one thing I just realized. And if they can give it you in

realized. And if they can give it you in the in the moment and you've got like an

the in the moment and you've got like an easy channel where they can they can

easy channel where they can they can just dump these things. um as you say

just dump these things. um as you say like that that's the way to capture it

like that that's the way to capture it because um otherwise they probably just

because um otherwise they probably just forget or it just becomes normal to

forget or it just becomes normal to them. One of the things I've heard you

them. One of the things I've heard you talk about

talk about >> dude real quick. Yeah.

>> dude real quick. Yeah. >> Yes. That is a huge one.

>> Yes. That is a huge one. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> If you are an expert you are cursed.

>> If you are an expert you are cursed. >> Meaning you think everything that you're

>> Meaning you think everything that you're sharing is boring because it is to you.

sharing is boring because it is to you. >> Yeah. So on that point too, the

>> Yeah. So on that point too, the importance of having a team is like

importance of having a team is like Trevor will tell me when I say something

Trevor will tell me when I say something that I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "I've

that I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "I've never heard you say that. That was

never heard you say that. That was really good. That was really

really good. That was really interesting. That was extremely useful."

interesting. That was extremely useful." So just you said that and it like

So just you said that and it like triggered something. I just had to share

triggered something. I just had to share that like that is another value that you

that like that is another value that you get off of having the team.

get off of having the team. >> Yeah. I've heard you talk about document

>> Yeah. I've heard you talk about document don't create.

don't create. >> I was just Yeah.

>> I was just Yeah. >> And how Ila looked at that actually by

>> And how Ila looked at that actually by by looking back at her calendar, right?

by looking back at her calendar, right? Is that another another good tactic?

Is that another another good tactic? >> Yeah, it's it's just another

>> Yeah, it's it's just another interpretation of Gary Ve's document

interpretation of Gary Ve's document don't create. It doesn't necessarily

don't create. It doesn't necessarily mean having a videographer follow you

mean having a videographer follow you around. It means articulating uh the

around. It means articulating uh the lessons and challenges that you have

lessons and challenges that you have gone through in the last week, month,

gone through in the last week, month, year.

year. >> So, so how would you do that with her?

>> So, so how would you do that with her? >> Uh well, she did it, not not us. Yeah.

>> Uh well, she did it, not not us. Yeah. She would just look at the conversations

She would just look at the conversations that she had throughout the week. What

that she had throughout the week. What was interesting? What were interesting?

was interesting? What were interesting? Employee development conversations,

Employee development conversations, tough conversations, something with uh

tough conversations, something with uh you know, one of the portfolio companies

you know, one of the portfolio companies or you know a new learning in in the the

or you know a new learning in in the the workshops or whatever, right? And she

workshops or whatever, right? And she would look at what happened and then we

would look at what happened and then we would document it.

would document it. >> It didn't mean real-time documentation

>> It didn't mean real-time documentation though. It can be postgame

though. It can be postgame documentation.

documentation. >> The best version is both.

>> The best version is both. >> That's interesting. What the best

>> That's interesting. What the best version is both. Yeah, because the the

version is both. Yeah, because the the the thing that we're falling into right

the thing that we're falling into right now, I'm glad you double clicked on

now, I'm glad you double clicked on that. The thing that we're falling into

that. The thing that we're falling into right now is

right now is >> I have less and less trust in just the

>> I have less and less trust in just the average person making claims online than

average person making claims online than ever before.

ever before. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Meaning

>> Meaning just telling won't you know what I mean?

just telling won't you know what I mean? Like you got to show don't tell. And so

Like you got to show don't tell. And so I think that is also again like

I think that is also again like this whole like creating content online

this whole like creating content online thing is very new, right? Like the thing

thing is very new, right? Like the thing that I always like to say is like back

that I always like to say is like back to YouTube being 20, it can't drink in

to YouTube being 20, it can't drink in the US.

the US. >> Like it is brand new. And Gary has been

>> Like it is brand new. And Gary has been doing this for a very long time. And I

doing this for a very long time. And I think that it's very interesting that he

think that it's very interesting that he has been showing you what like he holds

has been showing you what like he holds a different brand position than a lot of

a different brand position than a lot of people in his space.

people in his space. >> A lot of people in his space have been

>> A lot of people in his space have been blowing up over the last, you know, call

blowing up over the last, you know, call it seven years, right? There's been a

it seven years, right? There's been a lot of different characters that have

lot of different characters that have come on in the space and done really

come on in the space and done really well,

well, >> but the majority of them have been doing

>> but the majority of them have been doing more telling,

more telling, not showing.

not showing. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I think that that shows up when Gary

And I think that that shows up when Gary goes in public, for example. You know,

goes in public, for example. You know, we had the opportunity, he he brought

we had the opportunity, he he brought back all the OG videographers back in

back all the OG videographers back in May to document this big collab he had

May to document this big collab he had for V friends. And I think the thing

for V friends. And I think the thing that just to this day is always so wild

that just to this day is always so wild to me is walking through an airport.

to me is walking through an airport. First of all, the fact that, you know,

First of all, the fact that, you know, walking through an airport with Gary is

walking through an airport with Gary is wild. But how many people

wild. But how many people will one come up and say, "Hi, thank

will one come up and say, "Hi, thank you."

you." >> But even more than that, I for whatever

>> But even more than that, I for whatever reason I pick up all the little things.

reason I pick up all the little things. I hear so many people be like, "Oh my

I hear so many people be like, "Oh my god, that's scary. I don't want to

god, that's scary. I don't want to bother him. Like he he looks like he's

bother him. Like he he looks like he's on a call or whatever." Like so many

on a call or whatever." Like so many people. M

people. M >> and I think it's back to what we were

>> and I think it's back to what we were talking about earlier where it's not

talking about earlier where it's not just that people consume his content,

just that people consume his content, they know his brand

they know his brand >> on a on a level of depth that, you know,

>> on a on a level of depth that, you know, and maybe people in the last couple

and maybe people in the last couple years that are more familiar with him

years that are more familiar with him don't have this as much as the the more

don't have this as much as the the more OG fans that were watching Daily V,

OG fans that were watching Daily V, >> right, and all of that.

>> right, and all of that. >> But yeah, I I think there is, you know,

>> But yeah, I I think there is, you know, the ideal version is when you are

the ideal version is when you are telling, you're able to show an example.

telling, you're able to show an example. How are you going to do that with yours?

How are you going to do that with yours? Are you going to do vlogs? Are you gonna

Are you going to do vlogs? Are you gonna do What are you What are you gonna do?

do What are you What are you gonna do? >> Uh yes, we're going to

>> Uh yes, we're going to I don't want to spoil it, but basically

I don't want to spoil it, but basically every year, uh my goal is to be more and

every year, uh my goal is to be more and more transparent with things on the back

more transparent with things on the back end to share more on the wins, but more

end to share more on the wins, but more importantly, I would say the losses or

importantly, I would say the losses or mistakes that I'm making in building the

mistakes that I'm making in building the business. Yeah. In making the content,

business. Yeah. In making the content, right? Um,

right? Um, I I also think that like to to the point

I I also think that like to to the point that I just made of the losses. This is

that I just made of the losses. This is not necessarily the best example, but

not necessarily the best example, but I'll give you one that just happened. I

I'll give you one that just happened. I was just doing a podcast with another uh

was just doing a podcast with another uh individual named Callum, actually,

individual named Callum, actually, >> uh, Callum Johnson, great guy, and he

>> uh, Callum Johnson, great guy, and he was walking through the brand story

was walking through the brand story framework in the workbook that we

framework in the workbook that we released with the course

released with the course >> for free

>> for free on YouTube.

on YouTube. and

and he identifies that I call out step one

he identifies that I call out step one is you make a hook and then step two is

is you make a hook and then step two is the problem. I was like, "Well, that was

the problem. I was like, "Well, that was stupid."

stupid." >> The hook and the problem should be the

>> The hook and the problem should be the same thing.

same thing. >> I would redo that.

>> I would redo that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And instead of doing what I see a lot of

>> And instead of doing what I see a lot of people do when when a moment like that

people do when when a moment like that comes up, trying to like reposition it

comes up, trying to like reposition it and like

and like >> I was just like, "Yeah, that was that

>> I was just like, "Yeah, that was that was stupid." like I'm getting better at

was stupid." like I'm getting better at articulating my thoughts. Right? I've

articulating my thoughts. Right? I've spent 16 years doing, not documenting my

spent 16 years doing, not documenting my doing.

doing. >> And so I'm currently in the process of

>> And so I'm currently in the process of looking at like what have I been doing

looking at like what have I been doing naturally and how do I then articulate

naturally and how do I then articulate this in a process that other people can

this in a process that other people can do something that I kind of just

do something that I kind of just intuitively do naturally,

intuitively do naturally, >> right? And so that was a moment where I

>> right? And so that was a moment where I shared that and I think in doing that a

shared that and I think in doing that a lot of people would ask uh for that to

lot of people would ask uh for that to be cut or there's been a couple of times

be cut or there's been a couple of times where due to uh a 12-hour flight and a

where due to uh a 12-hour flight and a 14-hour film day yesterday right after

14-hour film day yesterday right after flying in to town uh I have spaced and

flying in to town uh I have spaced and lost my train of thought on here and I

lost my train of thought on here and I turned to your team and I don't know if

turned to your team and I don't know if we're going to end up having this these

we're going to end up having this these included but I was like

included but I was like >> no need to cut those.

>> no need to cut those. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> I like sharing that

>> I like sharing that >> and I want to do the same thing. We have

>> and I want to do the same thing. We have to be respectful of our clients of

to be respectful of our clients of course.

course. >> Uh but I want to at the level that we

>> Uh but I want to at the level that we can share as much as humanly possible

can share as much as humanly possible >> now I'm in the beginning stages so I'm

>> now I'm in the beginning stages so I'm getting more and more comfortable with

getting more and more comfortable with this. So every year it will increase in

this. So every year it will increase in transparency and vulnerability because

transparency and vulnerability because again I know what the best version would

again I know what the best version would be but if I did the best version year

be but if I did the best version year one I'm gonna be freaked the [ __ ] out.

one I'm gonna be freaked the [ __ ] out. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And I won't stick with it.

>> And I won't stick with it. >> No. Right. And so that's how I plan on

>> No. Right. And so that's how I plan on doing it. You know, I am not at the

doing it. You know, I am not at the level of any of those characters that

level of any of those characters that I've worked for and I do not aspire to

I've worked for and I do not aspire to be. I do not have that ambition in any

be. I do not have that ambition in any way, shape, or form. And so I want to

way, shape, or form. And so I want to document my process in my own way and

document my process in my own way and share that fact. I think there's a lot

share that fact. I think there's a lot of people that are talking about these

of people that are talking about these like wildly big ambitions and I think

like wildly big ambitions and I think it's awesome.

it's awesome. >> I don't have that crazy. I have big

>> I don't have that crazy. I have big ambitions compared to maybe the average,

ambitions compared to maybe the average, you know, Sarah or Joe, but like

you know, Sarah or Joe, but like >> not at that level. And so, I'm going to

>> not at that level. And so, I'm going to be documenting that because I think

be documenting that because I think there's a lot of people that probably

there's a lot of people that probably can relate to that. They feel this need

can relate to that. They feel this need to develop this crazy big ambition

to develop this crazy big ambition because the people they look up to do

because the people they look up to do that. And I would like to show that like

that. And I would like to show that like you can accomplish really big [ __ ] in

you can accomplish really big [ __ ] in your life without having this

your life without having this goal that you're just copying somebody

goal that you're just copying somebody else's goal, right? Like I saw it all

else's goal, right? Like I saw it all the time with Gary Vans of like I want

the time with Gary Vans of like I want to buy the blank, their favorite team.

to buy the blank, their favorite team. >> I did this. I had like six months in my

>> I did this. I had like six months in my life where I was like, I want to buy the

life where I was like, I want to buy the Seattle Seahawks because I I I do love

Seattle Seahawks because I I I do love the Seahawks. Not to the level that Gary

the Seahawks. Not to the level that Gary loves the Jets, but I do love them. I

loves the Jets, but I do love them. I don't want to buy the SE that's that's

don't want to buy the SE that's that's [ __ ] That's me just copying

[ __ ] That's me just copying somebody else's goal, right? And so I

somebody else's goal, right? And so I think I want to be able to help people

think I want to be able to help people see that like you can have different

see that like you can have different goals and you can go about building

goals and you can go about building these things in a different way than

these things in a different way than maybe has been modeled to date. And

maybe has been modeled to date. And again, there's nothing wrong with what's

again, there's nothing wrong with what's being modeled. I think it's [ __ ]

being modeled. I think it's [ __ ] awesome, right? Like I've gained a lot

awesome, right? Like I've gained a lot from that.

from that. >> I just maybe I'm speaking to a different

>> I just maybe I'm speaking to a different crowd. No, but that is why I wanted to

crowd. No, but that is why I wanted to get you on because from the moment I got

get you on because from the moment I got introduced to you and then the moment I

introduced to you and then the moment I saw you start posting, the the one thing

saw you start posting, the the one thing that just blew me away is how you stand

that just blew me away is how you stand out from the crowd and how confident you

out from the crowd and how confident you were in being more vulnerable, being

were in being more vulnerable, being more real, being more like quote unquote

more real, being more like quote unquote authentic. And yeah, that just stood out

authentic. And yeah, that just stood out in a way that a lot of the other people

in a way that a lot of the other people in this space, I I I see I see them, but

in this space, I I I see I see them, but I don't watch them. I don't click on

I don't watch them. I don't click on every video. Whereas with you, I I

every video. Whereas with you, I I really have done that. And um yeah,

really have done that. And um yeah, because it just feels totally fresh as

because it just feels totally fresh as well. So, I think that that would that's

well. So, I think that that would that's kind of the the biggest lesson I've

kind of the the biggest lesson I've taken from today is like there's another

taken from today is like there's another way to do this versus what 95% of the

way to do this versus what 95% of the advice out there is. And um I think if

advice out there is. And um I think if people can use this approach and be

people can use this approach and be confident in it, um I think you're going

confident in it, um I think you're going to have so much more success because you

to have so much more success because you will you will stand out by a mile. And

will you will stand out by a mile. And uh yeah, absolutely love this Caleb. Uh

uh yeah, absolutely love this Caleb. Uh thanks so much for coming on. If if

thanks so much for coming on. If if someone's listening to this and they're

someone's listening to this and they're they're pumped to take the first step,

they're pumped to take the first step, the the next step, what what would what

the the next step, what what would what would you tell them to do?

would you tell them to do? >> Well, first, thanks for saying that,

>> Well, first, thanks for saying that, man. That means the world. I I not just

man. That means the world. I I not just saying that. Like, that really means a

saying that. Like, that really means a lot to me. So, thank you. Um, because

lot to me. So, thank you. Um, because it's not easy, you know, it's it's hard

it's not easy, you know, it's it's hard and and I have plenty of moments of

and and I have plenty of moments of second guessing, you know, wow, I can't

second guessing, you know, wow, I can't believe I just shared that. Wow, I can't

believe I just shared that. Wow, I can't believe uh I'm walking you through what

believe uh I'm walking you through what I literally walk our clients through,

I literally walk our clients through, you know, like on this podcast, right?

you know, like on this podcast, right? Like I have those moments. So, it's not

Like I have those moments. So, it's not like it just comes naturally, you know?

like it just comes naturally, you know? >> But thank you. Um where should they

>> But thank you. Um where should they start? Should start by

start? Should start by going to the top of this podcast and do

going to the top of this podcast and do that brand journey framework.

that brand journey framework. >> Uh we have things that can help with

>> Uh we have things that can help with that, but you don't need that. [ __ ]

that, but you don't need that. [ __ ] do it on your own, you know? Like I I I

do it on your own, you know? Like I I I really believe that

really believe that our goal is like in putting out the

our goal is like in putting out the content that we put out, I really want

content that we put out, I really want people to be able to do this without

people to be able to do this without working with us.

working with us. >> And then there's going to be a select

>> And then there's going to be a select few people that it's like they realize

few people that it's like they realize how hard or in-depth all of that is and

how hard or in-depth all of that is and they're like, "Cool, let's let's bring

they're like, "Cool, let's let's bring let's work with them kind of a thing."

let's work with them kind of a thing." But for the majority of people, I just

But for the majority of people, I just want them to take action. And really,

want them to take action. And really, honestly, uh, if I can get a little

honestly, uh, if I can get a little intense for a second,

intense for a second, I really want to see less [ __ ] out

I really want to see less [ __ ] out in the market. I think a lot of people

in the market. I think a lot of people are building personal brands that are

are building personal brands that are making [ __ ] worse. I'll just say it that

making [ __ ] worse. I'll just say it that way.

way. >> Uh, not making it better.

>> Uh, not making it better. >> And I believe, one man's opinion, if the

>> And I believe, one man's opinion, if the majority of people started changing what

majority of people started changing what they optimized around, we'd be making

they optimized around, we'd be making things a lot better for people, not

things a lot better for people, not worse. M

worse. M >> these social platforms might add more

>> these social platforms might add more good than maybe they are right now. And

good than maybe they are right now. And so that's a huge mission of mine. If you

so that's a huge mission of mine. If you want more information on how I do that,

want more information on how I do that, just watch the course that's free on

just watch the course that's free on YouTube. Download the workbook if you

YouTube. Download the workbook if you want to take action. But you don't even

want to take action. But you don't even need to do that because I don't need the

need to do that because I don't need the email, you know, like because I feel

email, you know, like because I feel like every time people say that then

like every time people say that then it's like pushing. I'm not I like I just

it's like pushing. I'm not I like I just want people to be able to take action on

want people to be able to take action on this for free. Yeah.

this for free. Yeah. >> And so uh if that's a thing, cool. And

>> And so uh if that's a thing, cool. And then if you do take action on it, the

then if you do take action on it, the one request that I have, DM me and let

one request that I have, DM me and let me know how it went.

me know how it went. >> Awesome. This was so much fun and uh

>> Awesome. This was so much fun and uh yeah, I'm sure this won't be the last

yeah, I'm sure this won't be the last time that we meet. So uh yeah, thank

time that we meet. So uh yeah, thank thanks so much for coming on and let

thanks so much for coming on and let let's do another one soon.

let's do another one soon. >> Thank you, Kell. I really appreciate it

>> Thank you, Kell. I really appreciate it and I appreciate the opportunity.

and I appreciate the opportunity. >> Great. If you enjoyed this episode and

>> Great. If you enjoyed this episode and want to dive deeper on personal brand, I

want to dive deeper on personal brand, I recommend you listen to my episode with

recommend you listen to my episode with Daniel Priestley. It's absolutely

Daniel Priestley. It's absolutely brilliant. on YouTube. Click the link

brilliant. on YouTube. Click the link here to watch it. Or you can find it on

here to watch it. Or you can find it on the Creator Playbooks podcast feed,

the Creator Playbooks podcast feed, wherever you get your podcasts. Check it

wherever you get your podcasts. Check it out and let me know what you think.

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YouTube Transcript:Meet The Marketing Genius Behind Alex Hormozi And GaryVee

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Meet The Marketing Genius Behind Alex Hormozi And GaryVee