This content explores the personal journey and critical perspective of a former adult entertainment industry agent, highlighting the industry's detrimental effects on performers, consumers, and society, and questioning the societal narrative of "freedom" as the ability to engage in vice.
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you know. Yeah. I knew girls who were
making hundreds of thousands of dollars
a year just shooting and they were still escorting
escorting
because you always need more. It's never
enough. When you've got an infinite, you
know, let's say what some people call a
god-sized hole in your psyche, in your spirit,
spirit,
it doesn't matter how much money you
>> So, Chris,
when did you come to LA?
So, I first came to LA, I was probably
19, 20 years old, somewhere around then.
I had been going to college in
Pennsylvania for um computer networking
of all things. And I sort of took a look
around and decided I didn't want to do
that. I didn't want to be sort of stuck
in a cubicle. And I was always drawn to
like eccentric and artistic people. And
I always had a sense that I wanted to
get out, you know, into like the big
city and all that kind of stuff. So um
so I moved to LA. I dropped out of
college actually. I moved to Los Angeles
uh when I was 1920
and um started attending music school
actually there. I was in the music
business before I was in the adult
entertainment business. So I was in the
music business for a few years and and
that's sort of how that started.
>> What how did you get introduced to to
adult entertainment? So,
so like I said, I was in the music
business and I was just making no money
as most people in the music business do.
And um you know, I was really impatient
about that. I I I was always sort of
impatient about being successful and
making money and and whatever at the
time. And um so I had a I was dating a
girl at the time uh who was not in the
adult business, but she said, "You know,
I have a family friend who has a job
opening." because I was looking for a
job and he's looking for an assistant
and um she said but you know it's in the
it's in the adult film business and me
as a you know 20-year-old kid at the
time or 21 or however old I was I said
okay great I don't care you know that's
fine so uh she introduced me to him and
his company sort of was a a broker for
adult film rights so it was kind of on
the outside of the business the the
ancillary end of the business uh and
what they would do is is uh act as an
agent between adult film producers in
the United States and foreign clients
who wanted to buy rights for those
films. So it was licensing, film licensing.
licensing.
Um and so I started off as his assistant
and um at the time at that time I think
he was I was making $35,000 a year which
for me at that point was like a good
amount of money. you know, I went from
work at minimum wage at the time was
probably $8 an hour or something, right?
So, so um you know, believe it or not,
at that time in California, which was
almost 20 years ago now, you could you
could make it on that if you had a
roommate and whatever. So, just to be
able to pay my bills for me was
exciting. And and uh it was my first
real sort of corporate job. I had an
office and a desk and all that kind of
stuff. And so anyway, um I was his
assistant and eventually our one of our
sales and acquisitions people quit and I
said, "Hey, you know, give me a shot at
that. Let me let me do that job." And he
did. Uh
and so I sort of became an agent
representing adult film producers and
selling their content to foreign, you
know, buyers of of rights of adult film rights.
rights.
And eventually you became like an agent,
>> correct? So yeah, the bulk of my career.
So I I I was doing that for a few years
and then that kind of became a dead end.
And I was looking around on a a job site
one day which was um there was a a site
for adult jobs basically like within the
industry kind of insular like if you're
not in the industry you wouldn't know
about it but but it was basically like a
Craigslist job section but for the
industry and I saw on there that there
was a talent agency that represented
models that was advertising looking for
a new agent. And I thought I was
familiar with this agency. Uh they were
the biggest in the industry. If you
think of, you know, their mainstream
equivalent would be like Willamina or
um WME or any of those those big talent
agents like they were that of the adult
world. And uh so I thought, yeah, let me
apply to that. So I applied
and I don't think they responded. And I
kept following up and following up and
following up. Anyway, finally I got an
interview and the interview went great,
but at the time I was, I think, 25 years
old and I looked young too back then. I
probably looked like I was 17. And so
um they didn't hire me actually. And so
a year goes by and all of a sudden I get
a call. They had hired someone else in
the interim. And I get a call from the
owner of that company and he says, you
know, hey, are you still looking for a
job? Are you still available? The guy
that we hired didn't work out. And I
said, hell yeah, I am. You know, and um
and yeah, and again, so
I I got that job, started working for
them, making, you know, double or more
than double what I was making my
previous job.
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>> And it was, you know, from as a 20ome
year old kid, 25-year-old,
you know, it was it was great. I had my
own parking space. We had a beautiful
office overlooking the 101 in Los
Angeles with big
>> in the San Franando Valley.
>> Yeah. in the vivid what used to be the
vivid building which I don't know if
it's still it's I don't think it is anymore
anymore
but you know had these big windows
overlooking the the the highway and you
had my own desk we had assistance you
know if I needed my dry cleaning done
someone you know someone would do that
so as a 25-year-old kid from a very very
small town you know that was I was like
wow this is you know this is great you
know and uh
and and certainly I didn't have any you
know moral objection to to those things
at the time cuz again I was very young.
You know, I think like a lot of young
people I sort of grew up um with ideas about
about
porn and sex and whatever that were very
of the culture,
you know. So,
>> and uh tell me about the ins and outs of
that job.
>> So, I mean, no pun intended.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So really we operated like
any other talent agent. I mean
day-to-day stuff was like you know
booking shoots for models, negotiating
terms of shoots for models. Um I did
quite a lot. I was actually sort of one
of the first people to um pursue a lot
of ancillary revenue streams for models
at the time. Um social media was a
thing. Obviously this would have been
like around 2012 134 somewhere in there.
So influencers were just like sort of
becoming a thing
and the idea that um you know a girl
could have an Instagram account and make
a living just being a pretty girl on
Instagram was like just starting to
become a reality. And so I kind of saw
that and and and said, you know, there's
a there's a finite amount of work you
can do as an adult model in terms of
shooting. I mean just physically
speaking. Um and so and also just career
longevity is is very short typically for
these these performers. And so um so I
started negotiating deals with companies
for like brand deals and you know to
have models post on Twitter about a
product or service or whatever website.
>> You represented men and women, right? We
represented men and women. And when I
first started, we represented over a
hundred women
and probably a dozen men, maybe more
than that. And and some of the biggest
names, the biggest names in the
industry. Like if you watch adult
content, you would know who my clients
were 100%. You know, we represented most
of the it was like us and one other
agency that were sort of representing
all the big stars in the business essentially.
essentially.
Tell me about the uh the men and women
that you'd be representing.
What what kind of personalities are you
dealing with? >> So,
>> So,
as far as the women were concerned, most
of them were were very young. You know,
they're coming into the industry 18, 19,
20, 18 to 25 years old generally. Very
rare that you get a model coming in
after that. Um,
Um,
and probably for good reason because
that's when their frontal cortex and
their brain develops and they they make
better decisions. Um, but most models
who enter that that business
come from rough backgrounds typically.
There there are certain stereotypes
about the industry that are absolutely
true and and the models that participate
in it. And one of those things is that
almost all the almost all models in the industry
industry
have they they come from broken homes
most of the time. Um or you know it's
always something with the father. This
is very stereotypical. The stereotypical
like you know daddy issues kind of
thing. Uh very almost all of them. You
will almost never meet an adult film
star who had a loving and present father
and you know a great family and whatever
and even a lot of times when they tell
you that it's [ __ ] you know there's
something there usually or they were
subject so there's always a father issue
and or they were always sub they were
subject to some kind of abuse whether
that's sexual physical whatever it is
almost always and it's funny
this is bringing to mind I I
um even the ones that tell you that they weren't
weren't
a lot of times it's just because they're
not in a place to understand that that's
what that's what happened to them. So in
sort of prepping for this this in
talking to you I I went back and looked
at some of the uh adult film stars that
you've interviewed which not a lot but
there was a few. and you interviewed
this one girl who's a porn star and only
fans girl and you asked her that
question. Was there any abuse in your
life? And she said, "No, no, my, you
know, I I never had any abuse when I was
a kid. My my family was great and this
and that." And then in the very next
sentence, she went on to tell you about
how when she was underage, she used to
go on webcam sites, Omegle or whatever,
not porn sites necessarily, but just
webcam chat sites, and speak to older
men who would then get her to take her
clothes off.
And so she's going from telling you that
she had no abuse when she was a kid to
then describing taking her clothes off
for older men online when she was
underage. And it's like, well, what do
you think that is?
you know, and so so when she so in her
mind, she says, "No, I've never
experienced any sort of abuse like
that." But that's what that is. If
you're an underage girl online who is
being solicited by older men to take
your clothes off, that's abuse. And and
whether you consciously understand that
or not is is another thing. Um,
>> and often they had abuse that they don't
they've blocked out or don't remember or whatever.
whatever.
reminds me of um there's a Carl Young
quote. He says uh until the unconscious
is made conscious,
it'll direct your life and you'll think
it's fate.
Okay. So, you know, there's there's a
lot of those sorts of situations. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, yeah, I would say that
um many of these girls are coming from
backgrounds that are pretty rough. drug
issues in the family, family issues,
father left them. Almost always is a
father issue. Almost always. So,
So,
>> and what so I'm sure you know the adult
film industry has a is notorious for
like, you know, deaths and suicides, drugs,
drugs,
>> things like that. I'm sure you saw lots
of that, right?
>> And that's the other thing is that
almost all of these girls and again, you
know, people are going to say, "Well, I
was in the industry. I'm totally fine."
Whatever. Okay, I'm not saying 100%, but
I'm saying it's common enough that
there's definitely a pattern there. A
lot of these girls struggle with
anxiety, depression,
uh other mental issues, almost all of
them, no matter how much money they
make, you know. Um
yeah, like I said, I I I watched another
interview you did with an Only Fans
manager who said, you know, there's this
girl making 300 grand a month and she's
depressed. she struggles with depression
and all this stuff like yeah
doesn't go away with the money.
>> How do these men and women fall into
this industry?
>> How do you think they get, you know,
introduced to it? >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
I I think um
that's a great question.
How did they get into it? I I think it's
the prime. I think it's um
um
>> because I'm sure a lot of your talent
was probably you were the first agency
they they worked with.
I guess from a You mean from like a
logistical standpoint? How does it happen?
happen?
>> Yeah. Is it is it a photographer or is
it an agent?
>> Yeah. So it can happen various ways. I
mean we were uh popular enough in the
industry that we didn't really do any scouting.
scouting.
>> They would come to you. They would come
to us because as soon as you searched adult,
adult,
>> you're the big tuner
>> talent agent. Yeah. We would come up.
News articles about us would come up.
They would see our roster
and um so they would find us.
>> You know, sometimes we would get um
referrals from other models or from
directors or whatever, but most models
that we ended up working with submitted
applications through our site and that's
how we they found us most of the time.
Yeah. And then typically we would, you
know, if we were interested in them, we
would have a conversation over the phone
and then they would fly out to Los Angeles
Angeles
and, you know, off to the races.
>> What kind of money were they making typically?
typically?
>> So, and this is another great topic, the
money, because a lot of models would
come into that business thinking that
it's going to be they're going to be
it's just going to be an ATM machine.
They're going to make a ton of money.
it's going to be super easy like you
know and and of course public perception
sells them that you know and even now
with only fans they see you know all
these girls making this crazy money on
only fans and people don't realize that
the average Only Fans model makes I
think I read it $250 a month is the
average Only Fans account. So,
So,
you know, I would even tell these girls
sometimes, especially towards the end
when my my feelings on the industry had
sort of changed and my my sense of
morality had sort of changed around the
industry, but I was still in it. And I
would even tell these girls sometimes, I
I would say, you know, um there's very
few women in this business who make the
kind of money that you think you're
going to make. you know would and I
would say would you still be doing this
if I told you that maybe you're only
going to make 70 grand a year would you
still do it because more times than not
that's going to be where you're going to
end up you know and this is forever and so
so
is it worth it to make
>> the images will live on the internet forever
forever
>> yeah forever and is it worth it to make
as much money as you could make bartending
bartending
to do this you know and you know yeah So,
So,
can you make a lot of money in the adult
industry? Yes. But I'll give you an
idea. So, when I was in the industry, a
starting rate for a boy girl scene, as
we called it, a man and a woman having
sex was $1,000. Okay, that was a
starting rate. And that also, not only
just a starting rate, but that was a
rate that, you know, if you didn't
become popular such that um it was
justifiable to raise your rate, that
might stay your rate the entire time
you're in the business. I mean, I knew
girls who were in the business for 10
years who were still making a thousand
bucks a scene, but just to think and and
that didn't change the entire time I was
in the business. I mean, didn't matter
what inflation was or whatever, that
stayed the rate, the starting rate. And
so, you know, a very very popular model
will shoot 20 scenes a month. if her if
her body can handle it and and and
uh the demand dictates, maybe she can
shoot 25. Um,
Um,
so let's say you're a brand new model
and you're super popular and you're
making a,000 bucks a scene. You're
shooting 20 scenes a month. That's
$20,000. Okay, that's 200 some grand a
year. Is that a lot of money in Los Angeles,
Angeles,
especially now? Uh, so, you know, is
that worth it? I don't know. And that's
why a lot of these models end up doing
other things besides just shooting adult
content, you know, they end up doing
prostitution or whatever or having sugar
daddies, you know, and so, yeah, I would
warn a lot of these girls like,
you know, maybe you'll make a lot of
money, but you have to really think
about are you okay doing this if you
don't? if you just made as much money as
you can make at any normal job, would
that be okay? This is out there forever,
you know, and and
a lot of them would do it anyway. And
you know, cuz I just think at at that
age, at the age that these women are and
the backgrounds they come from, they're
not prepared to conceptualize what that
means. They're it's in they're it's
incapable. They're incapable of doing it
at 18 years old to think about that. you
know, everybody thinks that they're
going to be the star, that, you know,
they're gonna make all that money,
whatever. And, you know,
>> or probably even more common than that
is they think they're going to do it and
no one's really going to see it,
especially back then, >> right?
>> right?
>> Yeah. And I mean, this was, like I said,
this was I was in the industry. I was I
was an agent from about 2013ish to 2022,
2022,
somewhere like that. I've been out of
the business for three or four years.
It's about four years now. So, whatever
the math is. Um,
and uh, yeah, a lot of them, yeah, a lot
of them thought that they were going to
be all of them did, you know, thought
that they were going to be the next star
or whatever. I don't know. But for and
again, there are models who make a lot
of money in that industry, but I don't
even think it's worth it then to be
honest. Um,
but yeah,
>> but what do you think of Only Fans now?
>> It's just it's really the same thing
just under a different management. Yeah,
I I think I think it's all bad. You
know, if I if I was dictator tomorrow, I
I'd probably make I I would probably
make porn illegal across the board. I
don't think it's good for anybody. I
don't think it's good for the people
that do it. I don't think it's good for
the people that participate in it. And
I've just seen a lot of very very sad
stories. I I I know almost nobody that
was in that industry
uh that is, you know, that was in it at
20 and by 40 they were retired and happy
and had a family and whatever. You see a
a lot of very sad situations of models
who come in when they're very young
and they've never had another job
before. They have no education and
they're in the industry for 10, 15 years
and they try to get out. They find a guy
who, you know, likes them, wants to
marry them, whatever. they and they try
to get out and they find it very
difficult because maybe they were making
decent money and now they have to go be
a waitress at Applebee's and there's
nothing wrong with that but when that's
what you're used to and you have no
experience in the real world
uh it be it can become a trap you know
and all that all all those things that
you thought were were liberating you in
your 20s end up turns out they were
you know, you're a slave and then they
come back into the industry at 40
and they've got to shoot scenes for
a,000 bucks a scene, you know, and by
then they're older, they're a little bit
wiser, they understand and they don't
want to be doing it, but it's the only
thing that they could do to make money
at that point, you know.
>> What kind of I'm sure you have some
interesting or sad stories of people
>> Oh, yeah.
>> have uh you've seen the the arc of their
mental health
for sure when I was in the the industry
and I don't and again these things
change because they're it's trends but
when I was in the industry Xanax was a
big thing a lot of the girls were taking
Xanax you know because again a lot of
them were depressed whatever I saw
models who tragically
um we represented a model named Kagney
I'll just I'm going to say her name um
who was a very very popular model A-list
you know like I think she won performer
of the here at AVN one time, one year,
like top 10, you know, models in the industry
industry
and um we represented her on and off.
Most of the time when I was at that
agency, we didn't represent her, but we
had represented her. We got her career
started and then she left and went to a
different agency and then she was in and
out of the business a bunch of times and
each time she would come back, she'd be
with a different agent or maybe she'd
come back to us for a little bit or whatever.
whatever.
But I could always tell that it made her
miserable. she didn't like doing it. You
know, you could just tell that there was
like kind of a a broken little girl in
there and
and uh
yeah, she I would see her at different
events or whatever and she would just be
hammered drunk or, you know, blacked out
basically on Xanax or whatever.
But again, she came in and out of the
industry because
she would find a guy who would take her
out and then that guy would break up
with her and then she'd be back in and
then she could go try to do something
else and then that wouldn't work out and
she'd be back in and and um yeah, she
eventually ended up killing herself, you
know, and at 20ome years old I think uh
late 20s maybe. So, and that is not an
uncommon story, you know.
So I I think Only Fans, you know, it's like
like
I guess if there's a scale of things,
right? If if one thing is less bad than
the other, if it's a lesser evil, I I
suppose you could say that. But I think
in a way
I don't know Only Fans might be
even more detrimental to the consumer in
in some way than traditional pornography
which I think is already detrimental to
the consumer you know so I I think it's just
just
six of one half dozen half dozen of the
other you know you know the agencies in
our industry one that I was part of
others are licensed by the state just
like any other talent agency like we
have the same or we had I'm not in the
industry anymore but we had the same
license that like a Willamina would have
had or a WME or anybody. So,
So,
we did not engage in in escorting um
stuff ourselves, but you know, that kind
of thing is always around. And yeah, a
lot of those girls, I would say most
girls, regardless of what agency they
were from were participating in that to
some degree or another
because to to the at that point, you
know, once you've compromised once
you've taken that leap into the abyss
and you've compromised yourself morally
and whatever and you've decided that
you're going to have sex on camera
to the model, at that point,
they're not even operating as a person
anymore, you know? um
um
they've they've flattened themselves
into two dimension, you know, where
they're almost an object and for purchase.
purchase. Uh,
Uh, and
and
at that point in her mind,
she can either, if you look at it, she
can either go and be on set for 6 to 8
hours to make a a porn scene and get
paid $1,000, or she can go sleep with
this guy in his hotel room, and that'll
be an hour, and she'll make more money
than that, or as much at least. At
least, usually more.
And so yeah, I mean escorting is
definitely a part of that industry. You
know, it's not something that I was
involved in or that we were involved in
directly, although there there's always
rumors about that, but you know, I can
tell you myself that I was never
involved in anything like that. Um,
and yeah, it's it's a part of the
industry and almost all those girls are
doing it. I mean, again, I don't know
about now, you know, is a girl that's
making $3 million a year in Only Fans
escorting maybe. I don't know. She
>> probably doesn't need to.
You know what? Yeah, but you say that,
but like
>> there's some there's somebody that'll
pay whatever. I
>> I knew so many girls that didn't need to
and they still were.
>> Once you once you make
uh money your highest moral authority, okay?
okay? Um
Um
all of your actions are are
aligned towards that end. Okay. are
oriented towards that end or towards
that pursuit
and um and and whe you know and maybe a
lot of these girls are are trying to
fulfill something in themselves and
that's why they're doing that or
whatever whatever I don't whatever the
psychology is.
Um but you know yeah I knew girls who
were making hundreds of thousands of
dollars a year just shooting and they
were still escorting
because you always need more. It's never
enough when you've got an infinite, you
know, let's say what some people call a
god-sized hole in your psyche, in your spirit.
spirit.
It doesn't matter how much money you
pour into it. And the and the sad thing
is too
that I knew a lot of girls who made a
lot of money escorting,
doing um Only Fans, doing porn scenes,
and a lot of them end up broke. I knew
girls who were cash millionaires who
could go to the bank and pull out a
million cash if they wanted. Probably
had a million in cash stuffed under
their mattress because they, you know,
earned it illicitly and
couldn't put it in the bank. Um,
that ended up homeless.
I was talking to, you know, I I not too
long ago I I spoke to someone in the
industry and they were telling me, "Oh
yeah, so and so is is staying at my
house." And and the girl that they were
talking about was a girl who was a top
performer in the business and also was a
huge time escort making a ton of money
escorting. Okay. Like millionaire
millionaire, you know. And she's telling
I I go, "Why is she What do you mean
she's staying at your house? Why is she
staying at your house?" And she says,
"Oh, well, she's she's homeless." And I
go and it blew my mind. I'm like, I I
knew this girl as someone who was like
driving around in a Porsche and you
know, had all the stuff all the stuff
that you could want.
But the thing about money is it's like,
and maybe you've seen this as well cuz
you were in the entertainment business
or modeling world or whatever, but like
money is an amplifier. And if you are a
person who's spiritually dead or
spiritually sick or you know in your
psyche you have problems it it will
amplify those. It makes them worse and
and everything will be taken from you.
You know
>> I I think what happens with these girls
stories I've seen is they start out and
you're you're just going to be on camera
doing some nudity and that's how they
start and that's not that terrible. But
then the novelty of that for their
clients wears off and then they're the
agents will tell them, "Well, you need
to do a scene with guys." >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> So then you're going to do scenes with
guys and then it goes to the next level and
and >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> eventually you're doing
>> Yeah. And I and I saw models who came
in, I mean, I can think of a model right
now who when she came in the industry,
>> she didn't want even want to touch
herself on camera. She didn't even want
to she didn't want to do anything on c
like you know sexually on camera. She
wouldn't even whatever by herself and
yeah within the first couple of years
she was doing absolutely everything. Um
Um
>> and everything in that industry can be a lot.
lot.
>> Yeah. And so there was plenty of girls
who, you know, there there's a lot of
times where
I never will turned into I wish I w
hadn't. That happened all the time, you
know, and it's not necessarily
it's not necessarily the agents
pressuring them to do it, but the the
business itself pressures you because,
you know, the more you do, the more work
there is, the more potential work there
is. And if you come in the industry and
you have all these ideas about how much
money you're going to make and you find
out that well, if you're not having sex
on camera with guys, that money is not
there because that's what people want to
pay for. Then
Then
if your priority is is the money, then
then yeah, you're going to compromise
whatever morals you thought you had, you
know, unfortunately. So,
>> and I think the shame that goes with
this work is what opens up the the world
of drugs and alcohol and things like that.
Yes. Yes.
Yes. But
But
I wouldn't say so that's that's true to
a degree,
but I but most people use the word shame
as a peorative like, oh, if we just got
rid of the shame, it's not the thing
that I'm doing. It's if it's your
reaction to the thing that I'm doing
that makes it bad.
And that's I I don't think that's true.
I I think that some things are are just
damaging to to to the soul, you know,
like on a spiritual level or, you know,
even just a physical psychic level.
And so when people say, well, like, oh,
it's, you know, it's just it's the shame
that's why they they do drugs and whatever,
whatever,
uh, and and and have mental issues and
this and that. the the participating in
the adult business to begin with is as
an indicative of the pro of a of a
problem that's underlying as as the
shame that comes along with it is like
it's all just a symptom of an underly of
underlying issues. So, like,
you know, I the idea to me that the way
to solve this issue for everybody is
just like, well, we'll just stop shaming
them and be totally okay with it.
Uh, is laughable,
you know?
Yeah. I mean, I think if anything,
um, yeah, I mean, like if you are
hurting yourself, there should be some
shame associated with that. I don't
think I think we need to bring back a
little shame to be honest. I think we
live in a very shameless society, you
know, where almost anything goes. We
live in a society now that is more
permissive of everybody's vices than
it's ever been and everybody's [ __ ] miserable.
miserable. Because
let's talk about freedom for a second. So
So
what we're told freedom what we're told
is that in in society is that uh is
being free to engage in vice right so if
I'm free I'm able to to you know screw
anybody I want I'm able to do drugs
um
and I'm going to call those actions for
lack of a better term we're going to
call it we're going to call it sin the
religious in in the religious context,
sin. Okay? But even if you're not
religious, think of it outside of the
religious context. We'll say that sin is
that which those actions which separate you
you
from uh the highest conception of yourself.
yourself.
Okay? So if you conceptualize,
you know, who would I be if I was the
best version of myself, the most
virtuous version of myself, the best
version of myself, sin is that which
separates you from that actions which
separate you from that conception. Okay?
So we have a society that tells us that
that freedom is the ability to gauge in
promiscuous sex, drugs, gambling, etc., etc.
etc.
That's not what freedom is. Because when
when you do those things, you become a
slave to your your baser uh passions,
your baser instincts, the instinct to
[ __ ] the instinct to blow money, the
So society is taking and what evil is
evil is is when
you take that which is good, you invert
it and then you present the inversion as
the good.
Okay? So you're free if you have sex,
promiscuous sex. You're free if you
engage in pornography. You're free if
you if you engage in sports gambling. If
you if you're smoking THC pens all day, okay,
okay,
they're selling you slavery as freedom.
Okay. And that's definitionally evil
because you're not free when you do
those things. You've interviewed a lot
of drug addicts. Do they seem very free
to you? >> No.
>> No.
>> Okay. You've interviewed a lot of girls
engaged in prostitution and whatever. Do
they seem free?
>> Not at all. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
So freedom, true freedom
is not the freedom to sin. It's the
freedom from sin. And again, I'm using
that word because I don't have a better
term, but you can think of it in a
religious context or not. It doesn't
matter. The same principle applies. A
lot of people get hung up on like, oh,
I'm not religious, so I can't say that.
>> But that's but that's what freedom is.
Freedom is freedom from
sin, not to sin. And we have a society
that's telling young people what are we
what are we you know everybody complains about
about
um you know society and it's it's it's
so hard to date and no one wants to know
you and I it's hard to have friends and
I can't find anybody and all this
everything just seems like it's a mess
and and and look at what we're telling
young people. Every other commercial on
TV is sports gambling and pharmaceuticals.
pharmaceuticals.
We're telling young people, yeah, watch
as much pornography as you want. It's
it's good for you. In fact, it it
prevents rape. It prevents all that.
It's like a vitamin practically. And the
industry comes out with all these
studies, you know, every few years or
whatever goes, "Oh, we've studied it and
actually people who watch porn are like
way happier and whatever." No, they're
[ __ ] not. No, they're not. you know,
you know, when you're a slave to that
baser instinct, I don't I think part of
becoming a man is is understanding
subduing that or or directing that energy
energy
um in a higher order way,
right? So, like obviously if you're
expressing that by sitting at home and
jerking off in front of a screen,
like you're you're one step above an
animal, you know, like
monkeys do that, okay? It's not you're
not, you know, you're not participating
in anything beautiful or freeing. You're
not being liberated. And society is sell
is selling you slavery as liberation. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
psyche or whatever
uh changing as you worked in the industry
industry
>> for sure. Um and when I got into the
business, I was very young and so I
believed all this stuff. I believed all,
you know, there's nothing wrong with
porn. Like if a girl wants to be
promiscuous, like that's,
you know, that's a a part of her
expressing her, you know, femininity and
independence and all this stuff, which
is not. Um and I bought into all that
stuff. I was also like very I was like
proabortion. And I was I was all that
stuff, which that's another topic cuz
there's a girls in that industry that
use abortions as birth control, you
know, and um
but again, I I was like a boy, you know,
I didn't understand like what it meant
to be a man and what that meant in
society and what it means in relation to
the women that I interact with.
And so
by the time I got into my like late mid
to late I'm in more like late 20s, I had
moved to Vegas. We opened up an office
in Las Vegas. So I moved out of LA and
moved to Vegas
and um my girlfriend at the time got
pregnant and with you know we found out
we're having a daughter and as that
um that event tends to do if you're a
relatively conscious person you start
asking yourself questions like
you know what does it mean to be a man?
What do I believe in? What do I all the
big questions of the universe. What do I
believe about God? What do I believe
about sex? What do I believe about
whatever? Because a lot, you know, when
you're an adolescent or a young man,
you're just running on whatever your
programming is from society, your
childhood, whatever. And
you know, you're not giving too much
forethought to like, oh, should I hook
up with this girl or you know, what's
what are the spiritual implications of,
you know, and maybe to some degree
that's not the responsibility of like
very young men. Maybe that's maybe
that's a responsibility of men when they
get older. Maybe. I don't know. Um but I
started thinking about all these things
and asking myself these questions and
figure out, okay, it's time for me to to
to really figure out what do I believe
about these things, if anything.
And um when I first got in the business,
my my thought about these young girls
doing this was what everybody else was
saying, which was like, well, they're
18, they're adults, they can do whatever
they want. And for me to suggest
otherwise would be oppressive. That'd be
oppressing them, you know, somehow if I,
you know, encourage them to not just be
an object.
Uh that would be oppression, I guess.
And um
so I started that started changing for
me, you know, the attitude that well
they're 18 and they can do whatever they
want and who am I to judge? And I and I
came to realize that actually if you're
a man, especially,
you know, in relation to women that are
younger than you and who, you know,
don't know about the world yet, we have
some responsibility to them. You know, I
think that one of the things that makes
a man is is that he is responsible for
for for those that are meek around him,
you know.
And so I started having a real problem
sitting down with 18, 19 year old girls and
and
um being an accessory to what I knew
could become
the darkest part of their life. And
maybe it wouldn't be, but my whole thing
was like I never want to be
uh an accessory to someone's downfall.
And so I started looking at it, you
know, when you when you get up towards
30, you look at an 18-year-old girl, and
now I'm 38, but you look at an 18-y old
girl and they don't look the same as
when you were 23,
you know, and you don't see them the
same because you know all that stuff
that they don't know now. And it's so as
a man, I think it's incumbent upon you
to to do something about that. It's not
anymore just, well, they're an adult,
they can do what they want. Yeah, I
guess technically by the letter of the
law, but is that right?
I don't think so. I think you're I think
you're failing in your duty as a man if
if you think that way.
>> And you you you definitely feel like the
industry as a whole is just bad for society.
society.
>> I do. Um
Um
yeah, like I said, I don't think it's
good for the girls that are doing it and
the guys, too. You know, a lot of people
don't talk about the guys. they just
talk about the girls, but there's a lot
of guys that have a lot of struggles as
well and a lot of sad situations I saw
because guys can actually, if they're
good performers, they can actually have
much longer careers than the girls. So,
a male can perform into his 50s if he
stays in shape and you know, whatever.
if again, if you're a conscious man, you
come to some point where if you're
stepping on an adult film set
and you're 50 years old and you've got
some 18-year-old girl on set with you,
who doesn't want to, you know, who does
who would never off camera be having a
relationship with you? And I'm not
saying that that never happens, but it's
rare. Okay?
and you know she smells like weed, she's
on, you know, she's probably on Xanax or
something or whatever and you at that
point have to have sex with this girl
and she's going to get paid a,000 bucks.
If at 50 years old you don't that
doesn't do something to you internally,
then may then you're probably just lost.
You're you you've given yourself up and
you're just there's no soul left in you.
You're done.
And so a lot of these guys get very
depressed too. And because at a certain
point when you're a male, again, if
you're relatively conscious and you
think about these things, you realize
that you don't want to be running around
chasing skirts for the rest of your life
either. You know, you want to settle
down with one woman who you love and
maybe have kids or maybe not, but whatever.
whatever.
And that becomes very difficult because
what woman
who's worth dating is going to be okay
with you going and banging some
19-year-old or or 20-year-old whatever
as a grown man and then coming home to
her. It doesn't happen. And a lot of
these guys become very depressed because
again they're trapped. And some of them
try to move on to directing or or
whatever other other portions of the
business, but that's not always possible.
possible.
And it ends up being a very sad
situation. And there's guys, again,
there's guy there's men that kill
themselves in this in that business, you
know, regularly. And you don't hear
about them as much because they're
males. So, and a lot of people don't
even know them by name. But, um, but
that that happens. You know, you you're
the thing that you thought was fun at
20, well, it's not so fun anymore. And
you're you're But you can't know that
when you're 20. You know what I mean?
Like that. Going back to what I was
saying before, like an 18-year-old girl cannot
cannot
physically cannot conceptualize what
this means for her life and you as a
grown man know what it means and you're
ushering her into it,
you know, and and so
yeah, um becomes very hard for these
people to get in relationships, the
girls too, very hard. Even as an agent,
it was very hard for me to to date women
outside the industry because as soon as
I told them what I did, they wanted
nothing to do with me, even though I
wasn't a performer, even though they
they didn't know me,
you know, whatever. Um, and especially
if you're on camera having sex with a
lot of people, you know, over many
years, you know,
there's a quote that I heard one time, I
forget who it was, but he says, um, promiscuity
promiscuity
hurts people that you love that you
haven't met yet.
I think that's pretty good. I think it's
true, you know.
>> What are you doing now? You you've been
out for a few years at least.
>> So, I'm in the real Yeah, I'm in the
real estate business now.
>> So, I at at you know, around that time
that I had my first daughter, I kind of
again I was I could no longer
wholeheartedly do what I was doing. You
know, my morals had changed around it. and
and
um and I and I knew that it was a
sinking ship, you know, and that I had
to get out. And so eventually I was able
to do that. I started doing real estate
on the side
and did quite well and um which allowed
me to to leave that industry and to you
know go off on my own. I moved back to
the east coast where I was originally
from and um and yeah, so that's been
that was four years ago now.
>> And Only Fans was kind of starting to
change the porn industry anyway. I think
that agency was probably affected by
Only Fans.
>> Yeah. Well, that was the thing, too, is
that, like I said, it was kind of the
agency business was kind of a sinking
ship because,
you know, just like in in other forms of
media, the the the adult industry has
seen a um a very serious um contraction
um and consolidation, I guess, is the
word, where, you know, these big players
buy everything else up. It's just like
in the movie business, there's like four
major studios that make movies, okay?
Okay, in the record business, there's
like four major record labels that put
out records. It's the same exact thing
in the adult industry, and all of that
was sort of spurred on by the internet
and free porn and and whatever. Um, and so,
so,
so yeah, Only Fans sort of changed the
game once every 10 years in the adult
industry. Some technology changes the
whole game. So, like when DVDs came in,
that messed that the VHS's were done.
And then when the tube sites came in,
that gave you unlimited free pornography
without having to pay for it, that ended
the DVD industry. And a lot of producers
went out of business cuz they never adapted.
adapted.
And then the rest were all sort of
bought up and consolidated. And um yeah,
and the free porn thing is another thing like
like
like what are we doing to kids that I
just want to touch on that for a second like
like
you know to get on some of these these
tube sites where there is unlimited
hardcore adult content in full HD
format. There's no age verification whatsoever.
whatsoever. And
And
certain lawmakers or activists,
whatever, have tried to get these
companies to be responsible about that
and institute age verification, all
this. And they have fought tooth and
nail. The industry has fought tooth and
nail because they know, I believe, they
know that a goodsized chunk of their
audience that are accessing this stuff
are underage kids. Essentially, under
18, probably
>> extremely underage, too.
Oh yeah. The I think I read somewhere
the average exposure to pornography now
for uh for a young person is eight years old.
old.
>> Eight years old.
>> The average first.
>> Yes. And that changes your brain in a
way that you can't understand. You know
that people do not understand. And it's
setting that that kid up for a lifetime
addiction. It is an addiction. And
again, the industry puts out stuff every
year about oh porn's not addictive. And
we've done a study and this it's 100% addictive.
addictive.
>> Relationships and dating will never be
the same.
>> No. No. And you and and again you are
teaching very young kids to
um
so in a person there's there's a
person's attributes and then there's a
person and the attributes are in are are
replicable. Okay. So like let's say just
for example hypothetically I like
blondes. Well, there are thousands of
women who are blondes, right? So,
attributes are replicable.
The person is not. The person is unique.
Okay? And you are training very young
male minds to look at women as a set of attributes
attributes
and to not look at them as people. And
then so young women now, so you know,
when he's online at 14 years old, he's
searching blondes, big butts, boobs,
whatever. That's his conceptualization
of how to categorize women in his brain.
And when he looks at them, that those
are the things that he's attracted to first.
Um, and so then you hear young women
that'll say, you know, I don't know what
these what's with these guys. You know,
I go out like they're just they have no
tact. They're not gentlemen. They, you
know, they're whatever. And and and um
they're creepy. They're weird. They're
sending me like pictures of their
wingers, like, you know, and and like,
yeah, you've trained an entire
generation of young men to
uh look at women as to flatten them into
two-dimensional objects and to not see
to not be primarily concerned with the person.
>> This is what we built.
>> Yeah. And we're all suffering for it.
And there's no sense also in arguing
between the sexes as to whose fault it
is. You know, if you talk to young women
about dating, they'll blame young men
for being whatever. If you talk to young
men, they'll blame young women for
whatever. And the truth of it is that,
you know, that it's both sides and both
sides are suffering.
and as as a product of of what society
has sort of shoved them into.
And so both sides have to figure it out.
And you're going to have to give each
other some grace in doing that. And and
women, I think, need to be more vocal
about this as well, you know, because
women I you know, I think a lot of times
women don't want to be confrontational.
They kind of want to go along, you know,
if the if the if it's socially
acceptable to say, "Yeah, porn's great.
It's no problem." Whatever. Then, you
know, women tend to want to say that and
be agreeable and and whatever and and
agree with like, "Oh, well, it's
sexually liberating for the woman and
she's in control and this and that.
She's no, she's not. She's so out of
control, you wouldn't [ __ ] believe it."
it."
And and and I think women have, young
women have to speak up and say,
"Actually, no." Like, if you're a guy
who watches porn, like that's not cool.
Like, you're not that's not fine, you know?
know?
>> Do you think there's any closing this
I don't know.
That's a good question. I think I think
there's an attempt to and like I think
just now in the younger generation like
Gen X or not Gen X, Gen Z is starting to
wake up to some of this stuff.
Gen Z is like a very polarized
generation. Like on one side you've got like
like
the next evolutionary step to like the
millennials as far as like social
permissiveness and sexual freedom and
all this kind of stuff. And and then
you've got this other sort of
reactionary poll that is like extremely
conservative. Like if you look at
polling of Gen Z, like some of them are
the most politically conservative,
socially conservative in generations.
And so I think there's an awareness
among some young men and this is why
people like, you know, the rise of
people like Jordan Peterson and all
these sorts of guys like these guys
aren't saying anything revolutionary.
They're saying stuff to young men that
our grandfathers knew, you know, about
being a man, about responsibility, about
uh sacrifice, about all these sorts of
masculine virtues. And
and I think that a lot of young men are
trying, you know, they recognize that
like they don't want to be just mired in
slop, you know, that like they are more
than just like
you know, just their baser instincts,
you know, I think there's a even if it's
not necessarily a conscious feeling of
that, there's a subconscious feeling
about that. And so, I think there are
young men and women who are I think
we're starting to turn maybe a page on
that, but
who knows? Who knows which way that's
going to go.
>> Yeah. All right, Chris, thank you so
much for sharing your thoughts on
this crazy industry that we've created. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> And we'll see where it goes.
>> Guess we will. We're all along for the
ride, aren't we?
>> All right. Thank you very much. >> Cool.
>> When I was designing the first Softwood
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This second book is finally ready to
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accompanied by a quote from that
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This book features another group of
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Again, like the first book, once this
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these two books contain the best of all
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