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Making Friends as an Adult, Solved

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Friendship is a fundamental human need and a crucial component of well-being, yet it is increasingly challenging to form and maintain in modern society due to technological, societal, and personal factors.

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Welcome back everybody to the Dissolve

podcast, the most overressearched and

underrehearsed podcast on the internet.

I'm number one New York Times

bestselling author Mark Manson and this

is my co-host, lead researcher, longtime acquaintance,

acquaintance,

Drew Bernie, and we are and we are here

to be your friends for the next few

hours. You see what I did there, Drew?

>> I do see what you did there. All right.

>> Am I clever? Was that Was that a good

intro? Was I clever enough on that

intro? I think we hooked him in.

>> Okay. Yeah. Are you hooked yet, audience?

audience?

>> Do you need two friends for the next 5

hours? Well, we've got the podcast for

you. Uh, in all seriousness, Drew, I'm

actually very excited for this episode

for two reasons. One reason is I think

friendship is probably the most

important topic that is talked about least.

least.

>> 100% agree with that. Like if there was

a absolutely if there was like a ratio

of importance to discussion,

>> uh I think friendship would be

>> maybe the highest in this

>> romantic relationships get all the air

time. Yeah.

>> And yeah,

>> physical health, mental health, uh

happiness, like everything really like

your social life drives so much of all

these things. We're going to be talking

about it. Um and it's on top of that,

it's a huge problem these days. Um,

there's some scary stats that I know

we're going to talk about later, but

just a few to like just to wet the beak

of the listener. The number of people

without a close friend has quadrupled in

the last 30 years. The amount of time

the average person spends alone has

grown by 25%. And the amount of time

that they spend socializing has dropped

by 60% in the last 20 years. 20% of

adults report feeling lonely on a daily

basis, which is an all-time high. So,

yeah, this is a problem. It's like a

very, very real problem. And you and I,

we've been creating content in this

industry for

15 plus years at this point. I remember

there was a time where we used to do

friendship content and it would just

kind of bomb because nobody cared. And

we've really noticed in the last two or

three years and it's it's starting to

get a lot of traction because I think a

lot of people are feeling isolated.

They're feeling alone and they're

they're feeling lost as to how to

actually build and maintain friendships.

So, we're going to get into all that.

Uh, and then the second reason I'm

excited for this is purely selfish,

which is, uh, I need friends.

>> I need more friends.

>> We're gonna get into that.

>> I need more friends. I, you know, that

sounds kind of pathetic when I say it

that way, but um,

>> but in all seriousness, I think this has

been an unexpected challenge. I'm

middle-aged now, and um,

>> I this was never a problem throughout my

life. I always had a good circle of

friends and I would say really in the

last uh five to eight years this has

become a pain point. It just it feels

harder to maintain uh friendships. It

feels harder to make friends, good

friends. Uh

>> and I'm not

>> I've not entirely been sure why that is.

I've had some theories uh in prepping

for this episode is has there's been

some interesting realizations which we

will definitely talk about.

>> Well, we're going to dig into all of

that. Yeah.

>> Yes. Uh, so yeah, we might uh we might

just end up, you know, maybe we'll pull

a couch in here in the studio and I'll

uh lay down and we can just have a

little Mark Manson therapy session.

>> Oh god.

>> Um, so friendship is incredibly

important. I think it's people underrate

its importance for a lot of reasons. It

is it's kind of I think it's the water

we swim in in a lot of cases. It's not

as sexy. You mentioned romantic

relationships. You know, it's not as

sexy or or emotionally dramatic as

romantic relationships. It's not as uh

practical and tangible as say like

career development um or improving your

productivity, but ultimately it is maybe

the highest leverage part of your life

in terms of mental and physical and

emotional well-being.

>> Right. I'd also say too there's not a

lot of like there's there's not a lot of

social structure like there is for

relationships. There's not all these

scripts. There's not you know clearly

defined ways of how you go about these

relationships. So yeah, it's it's very

murky area too.

>> Well, and we I think one of the reasons

for we've already kind of tripped over

it which is like

>> I I made a joke earlier about like I

need friends. I immediately felt like a

loser when I when I made that joke. And

I think this is part of the problem is

that people don't feel at liberty. Uh

there's like a certain amount of shame

attached to it that if like if you need

help making friends or if you feel like

you don't have any friends uh there's

just like this intense

>> self- judgment that happens uh and and

so you you don't want to speak up about

it. So, some of the things that we're

going to cover in this episode, uh,

we're going to talk about the three

factors that lead to friendship

formation, uh, and then how to find them

and maximize them as much as possible.

We're going to talk about how to be a

good friend, uh, and the difference

between a healthy friendship and a toxic

friendship and how to know which ones

your friends might be. Uh, we're going

to talk about how to maintain

friendships over the long term, as well

as how to reconnect with old friendships

that maybe you've lost touch with. And

then we're going to talk quite a bit

about the modern challenges to

friendship from smartphones and remote

work and social media to also just kind

of broader social and cultural dynamics.

Um you know the modern education system

and the lack of family formation and uh

the decline in religiosity like all of

these things I think have very real

effects and impact on the lack of

friendship that's happening or the lack

of social life. We'll talk about the

highest leverage practices to build and

maintain a fruitful social life and of

course much much more. Now, if you're

new to the Solve Podcast, our whole

thing is we take one topic and we just

dive so ridiculously deep into it that

the goal is that once you listen to this

podcast, you will never have to listen

to anything ever again. And we believe

so strongly in this that we have an

agreement with ourselves that once we

cover a topic, we can never go back to

it. So, the idea is that this podcast is

so comprehensive and so full of all the

relevant and useful information uh that

you don't have to go back to it and we

don't have to go back to it. As a

result, it's very dense and it's very

long. Generally speaking, the first half

of each solved episode goes deep into

the theory and concepts and all the

information you need to understand about

the topic. And then the back half of the

episode is where the actionable advice

is, the practical takeaways, the

examples, the exercises, the tips. Most

people as they listen to the podcast,

they listen to it over multiple

sessions. They like to take notes. We

provide a PDF guide that summarizes

everything that we talk about in the

show. It has all of our citations, all

the research, all the references,

resources to read further. Uh you can

download that for free at solvepodcast.com/friendship.

It's all there for you folks. There's no

excuses. And I mean really, Drew, it's

it's not about the podcast itself.

It's about the friends we made along the way.

way.

>> Well, as

as one of those hopeful friends as as a

very familiar acquaintance with you, I I

can't get over. You have a soft curl

hanging down from your and and I can't

look at anything but that. No, keep

going. It's still there. It's still

there. Can you give it a give it a There

we go. There we go. It's okay. Hair

diversion aside. There we go.

So, I actually want to start at an

interesting and maybe unexpected place

on this topic, which is Darwin. So,

everybody's familiar with Darwin's

theory of natural selection. What they

don't realize is that there was

something that kept Darwin up at night.

quite literally. It was something that

vexed him very deeply, bothered him and

he struggled with throughout his entire

career and he never solved it. And that

essentially was how do you explain

friendship? The whole idea behind

natural selection, survival of the

fittest, um you know the each person's

genetics is looking out for its own

survival and replication.

That makes sense. Even something like

parents helping a child or children you

know taking care of a sibling from a

genetic point of view that also makes

sense. You share 50% of your genetics

with your brother. So it makes sense

that you would feel some sort of desire

to help your brother or help your kin.

Although in a lot of species

there is no such thing as family or you

know every it's just every creature for

themselves. What Darwin could not figure

out is why are there hundreds and

hundreds of species from insects to bats

to birds to humans that consistently

help other creatures that are not

genetically related to them. It makes no

sense. And while Darwin was very

confident and kind of cocky about this

this issue publicly, uh we know from his

private letters that it bothered him

very deeply to the point where he even

wrote to a friend uh that he believed

that if anything could unravel his

theory and his work entirely, it was uh

his inability to answer this question.

So this pre this question this problem

persisted in science for over a century

and it actually didn't really get

answered until the 1980s and it got

answered in a very unexpected and and

kind of strange place uh which is game

theory and political science. So by the

time the 1970s rolled around game theory

had emerged and I think everybody's

probably at least heard of or or is

loosely familiar with the idea of a

prisoner's dilemma. A simple example of

a prisoner's dilemma is uh Drew and I

have to prepare for a podcast.

Now I have two choices.

>> I can either do no preparation and hope

Drew does all the preparation

or I can do my part of the preparation

uh and and hope Drew does his as well.

Now, if Drew and I both prepare for the

podcast, the podcast will be better. If

I don't prepare for the podcast that

Drew does, the podcast will probably

still be good. And guess what? I didn't

have to do anything. But if Drew is

thinking the same thing as me and

neither of us prepares for the podcast,

well, it's going to be a very long day

in uh Studio Mark Manson. Let's just put

it that way. You get these prisoner

dilemma situations between selfishness

and cooperation that show up all the

time. And uh game theorists love to come

up with different strategies and

simulations of like what is the optimal

decision-m to make in these sorts of

scenarios. You can attach different

value amounts to each outcome and then

you can kind of calculate out like what

the optimal decision-m or strategy is in

in any given situation. Now by the 1970s

uh the kind of a new way of thinking

about this emerged which is which was

called iterative prisoners dilemma. So

generally speaking in a if you are in a

prisoner's dilemma in a single instance

uh a selfish behavior is probably higher

expected value because it's like if I

invest nothing in the podcast and I

believe you have a 50% chance of of

doing the work for the podcast. 50% of

the time I still get a podcast for no

effort and the other 50% of the time I

just get nothing but I also invest at

nothing. It generally is going to work

out in my favor. But what researchers

found is that if you run the same

prisoners dilemma over and over and over

again, Drew and I do 10 podcasts

together, 20 podcasts together. So now

if I defect um and decide not to to prep

for the episode, well then maybe next

episode Drew is like, "Well, [ __ ] Mark.

I'm not going to prep for this either."

And now it hurts both of us. uh and so

what you tended to see is that when you

ran the prisoners dilemma multiple times

over a long period of time, it made more

sense to be more cooperative. The other

interesting thing about the iterative

prisoners dilemma is that researchers

noticed that this was kind of a

microcosm of society in general, right?

Like there's a tension within all of us

in many situations of doing what's good

for ourselves versus doing what's good

for the group. Maybe in isolation we

pick the selfish action but the fact

that we have to repeatedly see the same

people over and over and over again uh

means that we develop a reputation and

people remember what our choices were in

the past. Now what's interesting about

the iterative prisoners dilemma is that

researchers came up with different

strategies. So one strategy could be

always cooperate. It's like no matter

what Drew does, I always prepare for the

podcast no matter what. Another strategy

is always defect. No matter what Drew

does, I never prepare for the podcast.

There's a strategy that that researchers

came up with called the grim trigger,

which is basically I prepare for the

podcast until Drew doesn't, and then as

soon as he doesn't, I never prepare for

it ever again. Which is, you could see

this as like the person who holds a

grudge, right? It's like, I'll cooperate

with you, but then as soon as you screw

me over, [ __ ] you, buddy. I'm never

cooperating with you again. Some of

these strategies got very elaborate.

There was one called a Pavlov that took

a a long string of past uh actions from

from the other person in the prisoner's

dilemma and and ran all sorts of

probabilistic models and stuff to

calculate what the highest expected

value action was in the next iteration

of the prisoner's dilemma. So

researchers like really went ham on this

in the 70s. So there was a political

scientist in 1980 named Robert Axelrod

and uh he had a really clever idea. He

devised a computer simulation that

created a tournament to pit these

prisoner dilemma strategies against each

other to determine which one created the

most value. And he reached out to some

of the most brilliant mathematicians,

economists, computer scientists from all

over the world. and he had them work on

strategies for months and then submit

them into the competition to see which

one would perform the best. He ended up

with 62 submissions from researchers all

around the world. And he ran a

simulation and to everybody's surprise,

the strategy that won consistently

was maybe the simplest strategy of all,

which is known as tit fortat, which is basically

basically

whatever Drew does,

I'll respond in kind. So, if Drew preps

for the podcast, I'm gonna prep for the

podcast. And if Drew says [ __ ] the

podcast, I'm gonna say [ __ ] the podcast.

In in evolutionary biology, this is

known as reciprocal altruism, which is

basically like, I'll scratch your back

if you scratch mine. Reciprocal altruism

is in many ways like our innate sense of

justice, right? Like it's if somebody

does something nice for you, you are

just naturally inclined to want to do

something nice for them. You know, if

somebody hurts you or breaks your trust

in some way, you're naturally inclined

to want to get back at them in some way.

Uh, and but if that same person who hurt

you or broke your trust comes back and

apologizes and then does something nice

for you, you're like, "Oh, they're not

such a bad guy. Let me be nice to them

again." So, it's it's basically what

Axel Rod's tournament showed is that

this reciprocation

uh of cooperation is evolutionarily

advantageous. It is the most optimal

strategy for a community. It basically

solves Darwin's problem. It shows that

friendship, building friendship and

trust and cooperation within a group of

people over a long period of time is the

most evolutionarily adaptive strategy.

It promotes the most survival not only

for the individual but potentially for

the whole group as well.

>> Yeah. I I want to dig into this just a

little bit more because I I I dug into

this because I this is fascinating.

>> I I love this [ __ ] And it was actually

so it was this program was submitted by

a psychologist not a computer

programmer. Okay. Uh I I believe it was

Anatol Rapaort who who submitted it. It

was four lines of code. >> Four

>> Four

>> four lines. >> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> I looked it up. I could even understand

the code. I don't program. I'm not a

programmer. And I could understand the

code. It was four lines of code. And one

little detail I think you missed there

was that actually the strategy is

cooperate first.

>> Yes. I forgot that.

>> If you go first, cooperate.

>> Cooperate first

>> and then copy whatever the other one

did. That's tit for tat, right? And it

was so simple. There was these huge

programs that people wrote, right? These

huge computer programs, very

complicated, like you were spent months

on it, statistical models that they

used, everything like that.

>> And a psychologist came along and wrote

four lines of code and it and it

>> by far blew everybody out of the water

iterate iterative uh uh competitions.

>> And it's crazy because because they

actually ran the competition twice. So

they the first round they ran they had

14 models

>> and tit for tat one

>> and everybody kind of looked at it and

they're like that no right

>> that's too simple

>> like oh I'm going to beat this now.

>> Yeah. And they're like no let's run it

again and let's run it with way let's go

get way smarter people and run it with

way more models and then they like did

the second round with 62 models and tit

fortat won again. >> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> Uh so it is

>> sometimes simplicity is is the most

effective uh and the most optimal. And

so essentially what this tit fortat

strategy tells us is that uh friendship

is an evolutionary technology. It is

something that we adopted for our

survival. Um the emotional attachment

that we feel to individuals, the mutual

uh pleasant feelings, the the desire to

help somebody who's helped us, to

support somebody who's who's has

supported us. Uh this is extremely

innate. It's it's not only in our

nature, it's in the nature of thousands

of species around the world.

>> And so it's like such a fundamental

aspect of our not even psychology, but

biology um that like we literally rely

on it for everything.

>> Now, not to nerd out too much, but some

of these evolutionary benefits, you

know, in the emotions podcast, we talked

about how one view of human

relationships is that it is

co-regulation of each other's nervous

system. I think that's one way of

looking at a social a social friendship.

Um that is what we experience as

emotional support is this kind of

merging of our nervous systems through

communication uh in the sharing of

emotional stimulus with somebody else.

Friendships were the original

information networks. It's the way like

if you think about what cooperation is,

it is building trust. It's building the

belief that what you have done in the

past, you are also going to do in the

future. Uh, and if I trust that you are

going to do the things in the future

that you say you're going to do, it also

means that I probably trust the

information that you have that I don't

have. You don't only have to rely on the

knowledge that you gain from your

personal experience. You can now rely on

the knowledge of all the people that you

trust and that you have relationships

around you. Um, it allows for risk

pooling, which is basically a kind of a

fancy way of saying it's like an

insurance policy.

>> It's the original insurance policy.

>> It's the original insurance policy. Uh,

simple example is like, you know, if I'm

by myself, let's say we were like

cavemen and I'm by myself and I want to

go hunt a giant elephant or something

that could potentially feed me for a

month, but it's very high risk. Um, and

if I fail, then maybe we don't have food

for a week. You know, if I'm by myself,

that's a hugely risky proposition. If

I'm in a tribe of 30 or 40 other people

who are also uh hunting and gathering

their own sources of food and they're

willing to share it with me, that

suddenly liberates me to take that big

risk uh to go hunt that elephant. And

then, you know, maybe I bring if I

successfully hunt the elephant, then I

bring it back for the tribe. And so not

only do we pull the risk but we also

share in the rewards together

>> and really just collective action in

many cases you get a the whole is

greater than the sum of the parts type

of dynamic right so uh in technological

and scientific discoveries generally

speaking you know Newton has that famous

quote where he said if I've seen further

it's because I stood on the shoulders of

giants um you know generally speaking

nobody discovers anything in a vacuum on

their own it's by collating and

combining and recombining and remixing

information and creativity and thoughts

from a wide range of people um that you

you make profound discoveries. I've

always found it super interesting that

um you tend to see major breakthroughs

throughout history, whether it's in like

science or technology or business or or

even like political revolutions. There's

always clusters of people that show up

together. Like it's never just a lone wolf,

wolf, >> right,

>> right,

>> who makes this massive discovery like in

uh you know the 17th century England

with all the early scientific

discoveries. It was the Royal Society uh

in in London. Um you know in the 18th

century you had all the founding fathers

in the United States. a lot of the great

physicists and uh breakthroughs around

uh nuclear energy and quantum mechanics

like they were all they were all

refugees from World War II living in the

United States together and and teaching

at the same two or three universities.

And so you had people like John von

Newman and and Claude Shannon like

hanging out at lunch just like shooting

the [ __ ] about like, "Hey, I was

thinking about this thing recently." And

you know, sure enough, you get all these

like worldchanging breakthroughs

happening in succession over and over

again from from the same group of

friends essentially. >> Um,

>> Um,

>> Silicon Valley today.

>> So yeah, that's a perfect example. That

that's another great example. The last

thing I I want to point out, uh, which I

guess is is just it's appropriate and

maybe this kind of foreshadows a future

episode that we do, but there's a little

bit of a tragedy in all of this, which,

uh, we've decided to call the tragedy of

the nice guy, um, which is that the nice

guy finishes last. Uh, basically, the

the prisoner dilemma strategy of always cooperating

cooperating

gets you smoked.

>> Like, you just get wrecked. uh you get

exploited, cheaters, liars take

advantage of you, um you get punished. I

think this just raises the point that

friendship uh it requires that tit

fortat dynamic, right? Like if your

friend is disrespectful or an [ __ ] to

you, you need to be able to stand up for

yourself. You need to be able to put

down a boundary and say, "Hey man,

that's not cool. Like, don't do that

again." Otherwise, that friendship

quickly turns into exploitation, turns

into a toxic friendship, which we're

going to get to later in the episode.

And so, I just think it's interesting

that even in this like super nerdy,

abstract theoretical

game theory computer simulation, you get

the basics of human boundaries

>> and like the dynamics of of of what a

healthy relationship is versus a toxic relationship,

relationship,

>> right? I want to put just one little

finer point on that too because there

was I dug into this a little bit more

even too. There was a later version of

tit fortat called generous tit for tat.

I think it was called generous tit for

tat or something like that. Copying what

the other person did that's you know if

they defect then you're just going to

defect right. But then um they threw one

more line of code in there later that

said kind of put a a little bit of a

randomness variable in there. Yeah. That

even if the other person defected like a

very small percentage of the time you

would kind of forgive them and then

cooperate back. And that one did even better.

better.

>> Oh wow. So put a pin in that because

that's going to come up a little bit

later too. Okay. So there's there's a

generosity aspect to it too and a

forgiveness aspect to it that that it

can even be programmed into a line of code.

code.

>> The thing this reminded me of this point

you know we still haven't done a

relationships episode which

>> don't worry audience we will definitely

do multiple relationships episodes. Uh

but I remember you know John Gottman

who's him and his wife are like pretty

much the preeminent researchers on rel

like romantic relationships long-term

relationships uh and the quality of

those relationships. It reminded me he

has this concept of like bids. So when

he analyzes married couples one of the

ways that he analyzes them is uh in

measuring what he calls like bids for

affection. He says that like married

couples will make these bids in all in

mostly subtle ways, right? So, it could

be something as simple as like if I'm if

I'm sitting on the couch uh and my wife

comes and sits sits down next to me and

she just puts her hand on my leg, you

know, do I lean into her? Uh do I look

over? Do I give her attention? Do I like

smile at her? Or do I just completely

ignore her and keep playing my video

game or whatever? Generally what he

found is that uh bids are in healthy

couples bids are reciprocated the vast

majority of the time. So anytime either

partner kind of reaches out to the other

partner for just a small bit of

attention or affection it is it's

reciprocated. And it reminded me of this

tit for hat thing because what he also

found is that generally in unhappy or

unhealthy relationships you see those

bids go unrescrocated or in some cases

even punished. And

again, it just it's interesting that

like such an abstract theoretical

game theoretical model of evolution,

right? Like explains

probably the most sophisticated and

important relationship research that we

have on like why why married couples

stay together or or get divorced. So, I

thought that was super cool as well. Uh

and I I you know my

>> this is some nerdy [ __ ] I Yeah, we

>> dude we are we

>> but I know

>> we're deep in the nerd zone for sure.

>> It's absolutely fascinating though that

like these simple principles apply to

very complex relationships. So yeah, so

that's that's like the scientific and

theoretical foundation. Let's get into

what friendship actually looks like

throughout history, how it's been

defined and uh what that means in the

So the word friend is a protogerermanic

word. I'm going to totally butcher this. Freons.

Freons.

That sounds right.

But the word freon comes from basically

ancient prehistoric Germanic. Uh and it

literally means one who is free to love.

So the the free is actually still

>> is the word free. That's where we get

the word free. And then I guess the

yawns is the um I think it's the active

verb of like a person who is loving.

Okay, so it's like a person who is free

to love. So encapsulated in this word is

everything that defines a friendship.

Now what's interesting about these

prehistoric Germanic communities is that

they would they used to sit in circles

around the fire and all the slaves had

to sit outside the circle. And so the

word freons was meant was reserved for

the people who were in the circle. It

was literally the people who were free

to love you or love whoever, right? So

it was

>> there was a status component attached to it

>> from these Germanic tribes which we're

going to come back to this.

>> Okay. Interesting.

>> Put a pin in this.

>> All right. So across pretty much all

ancient traditions, friendship is seen

as both a moral good, a virtue and also

seen as something a path to

spirituality. So from ancient Greece to

the Bhagavad Gita, uh you see

ancient texts extolling the virtues of

friendship, how friendship is one of the

most valuable and important things that

you can experience in your life. And

then from everything from Christianity

to Sikism to Islam, uh you see people

talking about how friendship is a path

to God himself. That to freely love

somebody, to unconditionally

uh have positive effect or regard for

another human being is in essence holiness,

holiness,

spiritual attainment, path to

enlightenment, whatever you want to call

it. It is one of the few concepts that

is universally lauded and seen as a good

thing uh cross-culturally

across history and time uh across the

world. There was one ancient philosopher

who really nailed it. And uh for those

of you who have listening to the show

for a while, I'm going to give you one

guess who it was.

Starts with an A, ends with an Aristotle.

Aristotle.

Once again, Aristotle [ __ ] nailed it

>> as he usually did. Uh, so in the

Nikomachian ethics, Aristotle

differentiated between three different

types of friendship. So you had

utilitybased friendship, you had

pleasure-based friendship, and then you

had virtuebased friendship. So utility

based friendship is relatively obvious.

You have you and another person have a

shared interest in common. You can help

each other achieve that shared interest.

So, this could be uh maybe a co-orker

that you get along really well with or

somebody who shares the same hobby as

you. I remember I had a friend who moved

to Austin maybe like 10 years ago and uh

it was interesting because his wife was

really having a hard time making

friends. Uh she would keep meeting these

women and hanging out with them and was

very frustrated that she didn't seem to

get along with any of them. And this

buddy of mine like he he seemed to have

no problem. And I remember talking to

him. I was like, "Why do you think that

is?" this. And he was like, "Well, I'm

going to be honest. I think I just have

lower standards." And I said, I was

like, "What do you mean?" He's like,

"Well, you know, my wife like she kind

of wants her friends to be a good person

and uh be a good mother and have like

the same hobbies and be excited about

the same things and listen to the same

music." And he's like, "Honestly, man, I

just like to work on cars and I don't

really care if my buddy is like a shitty

father or not. As long as he's good at

working on cars, I'm I'm gonna hang out

with him.

>> There's probably something to that.

>> Yes. Yes. And we we will probably

discuss that. I'm sure we're gonna come

back to that.

>> But I think that's a nice illustration

of the difference between say a virtue

based friendship versus a uh utility or

pleasure-based friendship, right? Like

it's I have I have poker buddies. Like I

never see them outside of poker. I never

really talk to them much outside of

poker. Uh, I don't really have anything

in common with them outside of poker,

but we like to play poker. So, uh, you

know, we're poker buddies. I think

everybody kind of intuitively has

something like that. There's

pleasure-based friendships, which as

somebody who was a big party boy when he

was younger, I can definitely relate to

this. Uh, in fact, I would say that I

think maybe a common mistake that young

people make is they mistake

pleasure-based friendships for virtue

based friendships. um they assume that

because they have tons and tons of fun

with somebody and they do a bunch of

cool things with that person that they

must be very close and intimate and it

turns out that actually those two things

are not the same thing and then finally

you get the virtue based friendships

which um Aristotle said a virtue based

friendship is long-term it's enduring

and it is based on an inherent respect

for the character of the other person

that basically it's not just a person uh

that you uh enjoy being around that you

have fun with, that you have shared

interests with, but you actually see

them as an admirable and good person and

you are happy to spend time with them or

do things for them simply for the for

the sake of doing something for them.

Um, and Aristotle considered this one of

the highest experiences in life. He saw

virtue friendships as some of the most

meaningful and enriching

uh relationships that we could have. Um,

it's funny because it's in many ways the

ancient Greeks probably correctly put

friendship above romantic relationships

in in a lot of senses. Uh, they really

saw something sacred and and very

profound about like a deep enduring

friendship like that. Now, what's

interesting about Aristotle's model is

that it's kind of like a layer cake.

Like you kind of need the util like the

utility is the the entry point, right?

like you need to have a shared interest

with somebody uh to kind of open the

door to have enough curiosity to find

out if you like hanging out with them or

not. And then you have to enjoy hanging

out with a person to really get to know

them well enough to really understand

that is this a person do I admire their

character? Are they a really impressive

human being? Um would I like to learn

from this person? Would I like to uh you

know identify with this person? Belong

to the same group as this person. So

each level kind of opens the door to the

next level. Like they're not mutually

exclusive. Like generally speaking, a

virtue friendship has all of these going

on simultaneously. And then the last

thing that that Aristotle well not the

last thing Aristotle said, but the last

thing I'm going to talk about in regards

to Aristotle is um that is I think is

very important and it's going to come up

a lot in this episode is that Aristotle

made two points. He basically said the

first two levels of friendship, the

utility and the pleasure are inherently

transactional. You know, it's like if we

are if we only hang out because we play

poker together, the minute you stop

playing poker, I am probably not going

to see you anymore, right? And

similarly, uh a lot of my party friends

back in the day, as soon as I stopped

partying, I didn't really have anything

in common with them anymore, right? So,

didn't spend any time. Aristotle said

that there's nothing wrong with that

inherently. Like there's nothing wrong

with a transactional relationship with

somebody. He just argued that as long as

the transaction is there's a

proportionality between the transactionalness

transactionalness

of the friendship,

>> then it's okay. And this comes back to

the tit fortat thing, right? Like it's

as long as

>> both of you are getting some sort of

benefit out of the out of the

friendship, things are fine. Like I'm

happy to have a poker buddy that I only

play poker with, right? I'm happy to

have a party friend that I really only

go party with. It's okay. There's

nothing wrong with that. It only becomes

a problem if say like I'm always the one

inviting the friend to the party and

they're never inviting me to anything

and they're coming to my house and

drinking all my booze and never bringing

a bottle of wine. And you know, it's

like it's only when when there becomes

an imbalance in the the proportionality

of who's contributing to the

relationship uh that these friendships

break down. And again, back to the tit

fortat thing, it's kind of the breakdown

of that tit fortat dynamic.

>> Yeah, there was a parallel too in

Confucianism as well. So the Confucious

outlined five the five relationships of

human nature basically.

>> Um and friendship was one of them. All

the others had a hierarchy to them. Yes.

Right. But friendship

>> uh was considered the only relationship

where there were equals or at least some

balance there that he's talking about.

But yeah, God Aristotle nailed it

though, didn't he?

>> Yeah. you're getting and you you're

you're oh did I you took my next point

you took my next point well so because

the interesting thing is that

Aristotle's point was that with virtue

the virtuous friendship becomes

non-transactional right you start doing

things unconditionally for each other

you know it's it's uh you don't you know

maybe your buddy's going through a hard time

time

>> and it's always you inviting them out

and you're covering uh you know you're

buying him dinner and you're like

helping him move into his new We've all

been there.

>> Yeah. And it's kind of one-sided, but

you also understand like, hey, this is a

really good friend and I care about them

and uh you know, we're one day it's

going to be me on the other side and

like it doesn't matter, right? Because I

I I love them. I care about them. I want

I wish them the best

>> and it it has like the transactional

nature of this is gone at this point.

>> Aristotle like that's the beauty of the

virtuous friendship. But Aristotle said

that for a virtuous friendship to exist,

there could be no status dynamic. There

could be no hierarchy. Okay, you not

like nobody could feel like one person

is better or superior than the other.

>> And this is a very important point. It's

the same point Confucious made. It's a

very important point and and I think

we're going to come back to it because

Aristotle's argument would be that as

soon as there's a status dynamic, as

soon as there's like a high status

person and a low status person,

>> the relationship is kind of forced into

becoming somewhat transactional. like

it's it's kind of impossible to make the

the relationship entirely unconditional

>> and uh

>> just due to power dynamics within the

relationship. So would you say then Mark

that that you know you say you don't

have these friends what you're saying

when you say you don't have as many

friends as you would like it's these

friendships of virtue because I think

you do talk about friends all the time

and you're like oh yeah my surfing

buddies this is what you do you you say

oh yeah my surfing buddies my poker

buddies my the go to dinner party

buddies with that I have right now

>> that's what you're talking about when

you say

>> I think so

>> I I I think it's

it's a it's a scarcity of virtuous

friendships although it's funny because

I do have a lot of virtuous friendship.

Part of the problem, and we'll get to

this, this will definitely come up in

one of the next sections.

>> The part of the problem is that all my

really good friends live in completely

different places.

>> All right. Yeah.

>> So, it's like I have half a dozen

>> great friends that I really love and I

see them all once a year. >> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> And it sucks.

>> We'll talk about that very soon, Mark.

We'll talk all about that.

>> Yeah. So, we we'll come to that. So in

terms of modern psychology um you know

there there psychologists have

identified really kind of three

ingredients of what makes a friendship a

friendship like what's the difference

between say a friendship in an

acquaintance or a friendship you know a

friend and I don't know somebody a

colleague or somebody that you see uh

all the time around the neighborhood and

they define it as basically number one

is uh there's reciprocity so both people

are putting in effort effort to spend

time together, to do things for each

other, to share things about one

another. There's trust. Uh so you

obviously you you trust that this person

has your best interest or isn't trying

to [ __ ] you over or won't lie to you,

>> doesn't have an angle or something, right?

right?

>> Uh and then number three is there's

intimacy. So there's self-disclosure. I

mean, intimacy sounds like a a heavy

word. In this context, it's not. It

literally just means self-disclosure.

Like you're you're willing and able to

openly talk about yourself. not

necessarily everything about yourself

but like you are sharing in personal

information with this person and they

are sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh

sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh

sh sh sharing personal information with

you. So those are like the three

defining aspects uh of a friendship. So

to come back to the protogerermanic word

of like somebody who's free to love or

these two these two let's call them

let's call them the two disruptors uh

for the episode. So the the

transactional nature or the lack of

proportionality, right? It's like a

friendship that's one-sided or somebody

who is really just trying to get

something from the other person. Uh and

then the uh the equality the status

equality. So if you take these three

ingredients of friendship and then we

kind of return to this idea that

generally to function uh friendships

need to be at least proportional if not

non-transactional or or kind of

unconditional. Um if you think about a

very transactional relationship or a

disproportionate relationship, it it

generally involves one person who is

always taking and the other person is

always giving. Um that breaks the

reciprocity that's going to interfere

with trust and it basically puts

conditions around intimacy. So, it's

like if in our relationship like you're

always giving and I'm just always trying

to take as much as I can get from you,

it's going to create incentives for you

to be very careful about what you share

with me and maybe like not always be

honest, maybe not always tell me what's

going on. Similarly, if there's a status

hierarchy, if there is like some sort of

imbalance in the relationship, um it can

create trust issues, it can create

reciprocity issues. the disruption of

those two things can also interfere with

with uh people's ability to be intimate

and honest with each other. So I do

think it is worth noting that um both of

these things the kind of unconditionality

unconditionality

um and the status equality these are

subjective these are completely

perceptual. Um, I think I've mentioned

maybe briefly on the old podcast, but

like when my career blew up, one of the

one of the things that that happened

that was a little surprising and also

upsetting, some of my friendships got

weird after that. And I think looking

back, all of the people I got weird with

were generally

generally men. Um they were generally

people who attached a lot of their

self-esteem and uh and self-worth to status

status

>> particularly like money and career claim

and I think for them

you know if I'm doing super well that

then like now they perceive us on

different like there's a hierarchy now

and then that interrupts our ability to

>> have intimacy to reciprocate to one

another. Um, and to have trust. On the

other hand, like I had tons of friends

who like didn't really give a [ __ ]

right? They're like, "Good for you,

dude. That's awesome." You know, and

they're like, "Don't like are you going

to pay for this beer? You know, you

[ __ ] cheapkate, you know, like it's

nothing changed. Like absolutely

nothing." So, a lot of it is subjective.

A lot of it is kind of perceptual. Um,

and and people tend to when it comes to

the status equality thing, like

>> a lot of people will project their own

assumptions. And like you know one of

the things I've always said is that that

we tend to measure others the way we

measure ourselves. So it's like if I

have attached my self-esteem to some

certain metric like let's say I I I base

all my self-esteem on uh you know being

a a an amazing golfer and like you join

the PGA like that's probably going to

freak me out. it's gonna like cause all

sorts of complications and I'm gonna get

weird around you and start being anxious

and start like

>> secondguessing the things I say to you

and then like as soon as that starts

happening it it's almost impossible to

have a genuine friendship, >> right?

>> right?

>> It is by by definition transactional.

>> Yeah. No, I I love that you're pointing

out the the subjective nature of this

too because I think there are a lot of

people who want to try to objectify that

balance. Mh.

>> Um, so when I said that, you know,

Confucious said that this was an equal

there there was no hierarchy in the

friendship, right? That ideally there is

none. Well, maybe objectively there is

in some way or another. Like with with

my friends, I'm sure there's certain

friends of mine who I've helped with

certain things that they've never

repaid. I'm not sitting here

>> keeping tabs on that. Subjectively, it

feels like we're still very equal though

because I get a lot of reward in return

for helping them or for them doing other

things or whatever it is. So, it's it is

like I just want to highlight it's a

very subjective thing and don't try to

objectify it.

>> It's funny because it's you know

studying this aspect of it and thinking like

>> it really started to make sense to me

why celebrities

are are only friends with other other

celebrities and only and only date other

celebrities, right? Because if you're

Kim Kardashian or whatever, every room

you walk into, there is such a ma

massive status disparity

>> that you can ne it it's almost

impossible to have like a genuine

friendship or relationship with anybody

new you meet

>> unless they're relatively on your level,

>> right? Uh and and yeah, a lot of like

theoretically you could say like well

you know she could that's she could just

choose to not see herself that way or

the people around her could choose to

not see her that way and like sure yeah

yeah sometimes like on the margins there

you're going to have situations like

that but like by and large it's just

easier to just go find the other

celebrities and you don't have to deal

with any of this [ __ ] You also see

something similar with like rich people

tend to hang out with other rich people.

Um, athletes tend to hang out with other

athletes, you know, like humans, we're

naturally drawn to people similar to us,

both in terms of what we're our

interests, right? Friends of utility,

but also status, you know? So, it's it's

like pro golfers probably want to hang

out with other pro golfers. Um, real

estate tycoons probably want to hang out

with other real estate tycoons. Like,

it's just and not only because you have

similar interests, but also like,

>> hey, this is a peer. like this is

somebody who's gonna get what I go

through. They're not gonna like put me

on a pedestal or I'm not going to put

them on a pedestal.

>> Yeah. I I guess I I what I'm getting at

I guess is there really ever a true

balance in the relationship though. You

know what I mean? Yeah. Because like I I

think I I think it probably like kind of

>> hangs around an average, you know, goes

back and forth a little bit probably.

You know what I mean?

like there's there's imbalance in a

relationship at one point and then it

might swing back a little bit the other

way and it kind of goes around and

everybody's comfortable with that

imbalance too at the same time. You know

what I mean? I mean, we'll talk about

toxic friendships later, but I do think

this is where, you know, your self-worth

really, like generally speaking, people

who have a terrible self-worth have

terrible friendships. And I think a big

reason of it is that um >> yeah,

>> yeah,

>> people with a terrible self-worth, they

see a status imbalance in every

relationship they have.

>> And so, every relationship becomes transactional

transactional

>> and they're trying to compensate

>> and they try to compensate, they try to

impress people, they try to manipulate

people. And it creates a very ugly

unhealthy dynamic.

>> They're constantly trying to prove

themselves in some way or show how

friendly or Yeah.

>> Exactly. And so there's like I guess

there's kind of an unhealthy status

dynamic there like that where that

subjectivity works against you. And then

I think there's just there's just the

reality, right? Like it's funny because

it's um writing Will Smith's book like I

really noticed this hanging around him.

Like I I actually started to feel bad

because I'm like I don't like how does

this guy make friends? every room he

walks into like people just start

screaming and crying and like laughing

and he's like immediately the center of

all the like you can't

>> how do you have a friend after that you

know like so it just I I think some of

it too is just uh circumstances and

human nature

>> one okay it wouldn't also be a solved

episode if we didn't talk about Nietz a

little bit >> yes

>> yes

>> um and Nze was like a real he was all

about correct me if I'm wrong here but

he was all about friendships are

actually a little more adversar burial

in a way like they they challenge you.

Um, for instance, Mark, what the [ __ ]

are you wearing today?

>> I feel like I have to point this out,

>> dude. I It's my Surf Bro outfit. I, you

know, you start the very first episode

we did, you were wearing a blazer and

now you're in here in Javiana's and gym

shorts. Okay,

>> I know I'm not exactly like a fashion

king over here. I get it. My black shirt.

shirt.

>> Coming from the guy who wears a black

t-shirt and black jeans every single

episode. I get it, but I'm just saying.

Where's the professionalism?

>> You're throwing rocks in a glass house

right now.

>> You and I could have a Nietian uh

friendship, I think. And I could just

call you out constantly.

>> I think I look good.

>> Nze be Nichze. Uh, of course, had to be

hardcore. And he he thought he thought

transactional relationships were stupid,

right? He was like,

>> "Fuck utility. [ __ ] pleasure. That's for

weak people." Uh he he said though you

should only have virtuous friendships

and you know they're virtuous because

you challenge each other. I actually

think this is a very valuable point for

maybe people to ask about their own friendships.

friendships.

Can you call out and challenge a friend?

Because if you can't then it's probably

a transactional friendship. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Like in a transactional

friendship if you challenge somebody or

if you like talk [ __ ] to somebody or

call them on their [ __ ]

you're going to break that. The

proportionality is going to get out of

whack. But like if it's a friend of

virtue, that person will actually

probably be appreciative. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Be like, "Wow, you're making me a better

person. I appreciate that."

>> Yeah. At least at some point. I know. I

get my friends will call me out on my

[ __ ] and I get pissed off. I go

back, "Ah, God, you were right." Yeah.

So, yeah. No, I get it.

>> That's our our friendship definitions.

Um, reciprocity, trust, intimacy, um,

friendships of utility, pleasure, and

virtue. Um, and generally virtue is where

where

that that that's the that's where the

majority of your meaning and happiness

and well-being is is having people in

your life that you know are

unconditionally supportive of you that

um have an unconditional positive regard

for you and you have an unconditional

positive regard for them and that you uh

see yourselves as equals and

>> peers, companions, all that.

>> Yeah. Right. And just like be aware that

those those types of friendships exist.

And if you are like, "Oh, I want more

friends." Maybe you have some

friendships of utility. Maybe you have

some that are just based on pleasure.

Could any of those you got to start there.

there.

>> You have to you probably have to start there.

there.

>> Like if you're and we're we're going to

talk about this in a minute, but yeah,

if you are coming from zero friends or

you just move to a new place, it's like

what's the the most obvious thing? It's

like, well,

>> go do a fun activity and meet people

while doing it. Like that's that's like

step number one.

>> You want to get into some like some of

the neurobiology and maybe even some of

the health effects of friendship?

>> Not really.

>> You don't want to? I do.

>> Can we skip Can I Can I go get some

water or something? You You can You can

>> Yeah. Kick your sandals off real quick

and go get some water, Mark.

>> I might take a nap while you do this

section and then I'll come back.

>> You don't want to miss this section

then. No, no, no. You don't want to mix

this section because there's more

evolution on this stuff and I know

you're like super excited about the evolution.

evolution.

>> I I was excited about the evolution

stuff. So, okay, I'll stay. I'll stay.

>> Okay. Why do you know friendships feel

the way they do? Why do we only have a

small number of friends, most of us,

right? Um that we can really connect

with anyway. Um why do we gravitate

towards the people we do? Well, this is

I mean part of it the the answer is

that's what humans do, right? But

there's obviously a little bit more to

it than that, right? There's this

anthropologist named Robin Dunar, okay,

who's kind of famous in this. And he has

this idea called the social brain hypothesis.

hypothesis.

>> And his argument is that we evolved the

neoortex specifically and large brains

more generally because we needed to

navigate all these social relationships.

Okay, specifically that that's the

reason we evolved. It wasn't tool

making. It wasn't, you know, foraging.

It wasn't mating. It wasn't any of

these. It was navigating these complex

social relationships that we have. And

in primates in specifically, uh, these

are very complex relationships. And it

takes a lot of brain power. It takes a

lot of cognitive uh, machinery to do

this, right? And so, um, sociality

itself, it's a very high effort, very

laborious cogni cognitive uh, process,

right? You have to track uh who just who

first of all

>> who's doing what? Who said what?

>> Facial recognition.

>> How are they related to this person? Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Can you trust them? The obligations they

owe to you, you owe to them, previous

experiences you have with them, the

emotions that they elicited from you or

exhibited themselves. The history you

have with this person, that's very very complex

complex

>> uh in terms of like neural capacity.

Evolution has selected for larger brains

to handle that complexity, right? And he

even came up with what's called now the

Dunar uh Dunar's number. Okay, in humans

this number is about 150 meaningful

relationships. That's about the upper

limit that you can have. But what's

really really interesting though is that

he even found out that you could predict

the typical group size of just about any

social species just by seeing how big

their neoortex was.

>> Like it's really really So again with

humans it's about 150. With chimps, it's

about 50. And then with lemurs, who are

like proto primates, they're hardly

primates. I would say it's like a few to

maybe 10, maybe 12, right? And each one

of those, you see like smaller and

smaller neoortes, smaller and smaller

brains. Okay? So you can actually

predict a group size just by looking at

>> the brain of a especially of primates in particular.

particular.

>> So what he said was uh you have up to a

limit of about 150 stable connections

that you could have. There is some

debate too. There's others other

anthropologists and biologists who say,

"No, it's actually an ecological reason.

You can't have more than 150 people in

any small area because there's not

enough food. You know, there's not

enough water, there's not enough

resources, this and that."

>> But what Dunar has found kind of over

and over again, you go to even modern uh

uh tribes like hunter gatherer tribes,

they they top out about this number. And

if they get bigger than that, the groups

become very very unstable and the

homicide rate goes up. >> Interesting.

>> Interesting.

>> Okay. Yeah. So, it's like there's like a

maximum and it's it's probably set

because again, it's really really

cognitively demanding to navigate these

social relationships and anything above

that is just kind of chaos and

everybody's at each other's throats and

literally killing each other.

>> You know what's funny? Okay, this is

going to really date me, okay, and and

make me sound like a boomer. But

>> I remember when Facebook first came out,

I'm talking like 2004, 2005,

>> and people what people started doing, I

mean, initially it was just you would

add your friends at your your university

or whatever, but then once it kind of

broke out of the universities, maybe

2005, 2006,

>> what people the first thing people

started doing is they just started

adding and friending everybody they had

ever met.

>> Oh, it was for me, I was go I was going

for that for a little while and then I

was like, "Oh, this is stupid." But for

a while I was like, "Yeah, it was like

every everybody was just friending

everybody." And I remember there were

all sorts of think pieces back then that

this is actually where I learned about

Dumbar's number. They referenced Dunar's

research and they were like the human

brain can really only handle 150

relationships basically. And like I

think from what I understand like the

way to think about this is that it's not

that you can only know 150 people like

in the abstract. It's it's you can only

have a relationship with 150 people.

Like you can only

>> that's upper limit too, right?

>> Yeah. you can only like empathize or

identify with with uh personally

emotionally being emotionally invested

to some extent with 150 people and

beyond that it just they people become

an abstract number

>> 100%. And uh and so people at the time

people were freaking out. They're like,

"Oh, all these people are like adding a

thousand friends on Facebook and like

you know, Dumbar's number says that this

is just becoming people people are being

objectified and they're becoming a

number to like a high score in a video

game that people are trying to like max

out." And so then Facebook ended up

putting a a maximum 5,000 friend limit

on people's accounts um to basically

prevent that sort of behavior,

>> which is interesting. That 5,000 number

is kind of interesting too

>> because Dumbar, it's not just the 150.

>> He he actually broke it down into more

concentric circles, right? So you had

the 150 you could have kind of

meaningful connections with these people

or meaningful contacts. You could know

them and have some sort of relationship

with them,

>> right? You could have 50 about good friends,

friends,

>> 15 kind of close friends, and five like

really intimate friends. That's kind of

how it broke down. But on that upper

bound, what you're talking about, that

5,000, they say 1,500 like is like kind

of a um somewhere between 1500 and 5,000

faces that you could recognize.

>> Oh, interesting.

>> Like that you would have like could

really memorize and be like, I've seen

that face before. Even if you don't know

the person or know the name or whatever

it is, you could know that. So, it was

interesting that they kept it at 5,000.

I don't think they intentionally did

that. Or maybe they did. I don't know.

Maybe they did. I don't know, but it's

just interesting that it landed there.

Yeah. Stalin once said um you know

during all the atrocities he was

committing in the the Soviet Union he

said um the death of one is a tragedy

the death of a million is a statistic >> right

>> right >> and

>> and

>> this is why

>> yeah this is exactly why

>> your brain your brain literally cannot

it doesn't have the machinery

>> to relate to more than a few thousand

people at most

>> and so when once you get in the millions

it just becomes this abstract blobulous

concept of

people right you And your your ability

to empathize or emotional investment

just like hits a ceiling in it and it

everything past that number is just the same.

same.

>> And and what kind of what Dumbar is

saying I think anyway is that we didn't

evolve brains to only handle those uh

number of relationships because that was

the group size. It's that the group size

is that big because that's all our

brains can handle. So it's the other way

around. So again, there's other people's

like, "No, it's ecological reasons and

food and yes, the food food resources

and access to mates and all that does

matter." But what he's saying is you we

just it's so expensive for mother nature

like they had to cut it off at some

point, right?

>> Wouldn't wouldn't the you know, so so we

were kind of topped out at 150 for most

of human history, but then it's like

agriculture comes around and that's when

you get citystates and civilization and

everything. And then obviously like now

I mean we're in a city of 11 million

people right now. So it's maybe that

does lend a ecological argument.

>> We what we had to do was we had to

create all of these cultural and social

institutions on top of that in order to

regulate uh these relationships and

behavior. We have laws we have you know

social norms like all of these things

that we of modern society that we had to

put on top of that.

>> That's true. you know, now it was I mean

those those laws and and uh social norms

and everything are able to fit into our

cognitive frameworks obviously, right?

But um they still have to be in place

and enforced >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> by an external uh by an external entity, right?

right? >> Interesting.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah. Sidebar, I had a friend who told

me once, I don't know if he originated

this theory, but his his theory was that

um that like all of the major world

religions emerged around the same time,

which was uh at the same time of of the

like the first early city states or like

large scale civilizations. And his

theory was that religions emerged as a

socially organizing technology for

thousands and thousands of people. It

was basically the first way that you

could coordinate multiple thousands of

people in human history. And uh and so

like all of the myths and the belief

systems were uh kind of optimized for

that. Like it's not like somebody sat

down and figured that out. It's just

that they like spontaneously religions

spontaneously emerged from the need to

coordinate thousands of people at the

same time.

>> Dunar actually says that

it all comes back to Dunar.

>> Yeah. Dunar. Dunar. And I don't even

know if he was the one who originated

that idea actually. I mean I it actually

I think Freud said something similar.

Yeah. Um you know I think even Karl Marx

was even saying stuff about that. But um

yeah there there are all these kind of

external uh institutions and um kind of

social technologies if you will. Yeah.

>> Um that we use in order to kind of um I

I would say a little bit hijack your

cognition around this. Yeah. Or at least

uh keep it in a box. Okay. Yeah. In some

ways like that.

>> All right. Back to friendship.

>> Yes. Yes. Um, so you have those those

concentric circles we were talking

about, right? So all the way to down for

the few thousand faces you can recognize

to the

>> you're kind of topped out at about five

intimate friends that you can really

like on that intimate kind of virtuous

level that we were just talking about

that Aristotle said.

>> So again, Aristotle was right. Like this

is another another data point.

>> Um, you you're topped out at about five

of those real intimate ones. Again,

these are limits though. I I think I

want to emphasize this here. These are

limits. They're not the goals. The goal

isn't to say, "Oh, okay. I need five

close friends. I need or five real

intimate um you know, ride or dies."

Basically, 15 close friends, 50 uh

people I can call good friends. It's not

that. That's kind of just kind of the

upper limit. Yeah. There's a lot of

variation in there whether uh what what

people need versus what they can

>> I imagine introversion, extroversion

plays a lot into that. And I mean, it's

funny because when you were running

through that, you were like five ride or

dies, 15 good friends, 50

>> friends. I was like, "Man, who has time

for that?"

>> I was listening. I was like, "Does

really does anybody have time for that today?"

today?"

>> Right. We keep getting ahead of

ourselves. We're totally going to get

into that, too. Sorry we keep teasing

all these things, but they do. This

does, though, you already mentioned how

it this uh this Dumbar's number and his

framework echoes in all sorts of

different areas. So, it's not just in

Yes, it's in uh social media uh your

circles. Even if you have thousands of

friends, you only typically interact

with like five to 15 of them, you know,

and over the course of a year, longer

term times, it might be 50, right? Up to 150 probably is what actually ends up

150 probably is what actually ends up happening there.

happening there. >> Um, preodern villages or or modern

>> Um, preodern villages or or modern hunter gatherer tribes, they all kind of

hunter gatherer tribes, they all kind of top out around 150. Um, military

top out around 150. Um, military companies are usually organized around

companies are usually organized around about 100 groups of 150. Let's see.

about 100 groups of 150. Let's see. workplaces too like uh organizations

workplaces too like uh organizations once they once they hit that 150 number

once they once they hit that 150 number then they have to start that's when like

then they have to start that's when like all the corporate stuff that you know a

all the corporate stuff that you know a lot of people will make fun of or you

lot of people will make fun of or you know kind of deride that's where it

know kind of deride that's where it comes in but there's a there's a

comes in but there's a there's a necessity for it it's like we have to

necessity for it it's like we have to regulate behavior or some way again

regulate behavior or some way again these institutions have to come in on

these institutions have to come in on top of our complex cognitive HR

top of our complex cognitive HR departments basically yeah

departments basically yeah >> yeah so this comes up over and over

>> yeah so this comes up over and over again and it's just kind of again it's

again and it's just kind of again it's this cognitive limit that that humans

this cognitive limit that that humans seem to have

seem to have >> and it's because Once again, it's just

>> and it's because Once again, it's just it's really really difficult. It's a

it's really really difficult. It's a very very difficult problem to solve,

very very difficult problem to solve, >> but it's a very important one too

>> but it's a very important one too apparently because it's so conserved

apparently because it's so conserved especially within primates. Yeah.

especially within primates. Yeah. >> This this all this cognitive machinery

>> This this all this cognitive machinery that we devote

that we devote >> to uh social relationships and

>> to uh social relationships and particularly friendships as well.

particularly friendships as well. >> Um so it's just it's kind of a testament

>> Um so it's just it's kind of a testament to how what you know if you think

to how what you know if you think friendships difficult well mother nature

friendships difficult well mother nature thinks it's very difficult too cuz like

thinks it's very difficult too cuz like she gave us this is what she gave us.

she gave us this is what she gave us. She's like this is the best I can do.

She's like this is the best I can do. Sorry guys. Right? Like that's kind of

Sorry guys. Right? Like that's kind of that's kind of where uh Dunar's theory

that's kind of where uh Dunar's theory leads me. Anyway, now you already kind

leads me. Anyway, now you already kind of brought this up about the social

of brought this up about the social media and there's always this there's

media and there's always this there's always a strain of utopianism, right,

always a strain of utopianism, right, that runs through technology and it's

that runs through technology and it's we're going to we're going to connect

we're going to we're going to connect everybody and you you've alluded to this

everybody and you you've alluded to this already and that's what Zuckerberg is

already and that's what Zuckerberg is saying. I'm here to connect the world.

saying. I'm here to connect the world. It's like

It's like >> not only can you I mean yeah you can do

>> not only can you I mean yeah you can do that in a very superficial way but

that in a very superficial way but we're just not we're just not capable of

we're just not we're just not capable of being connected intimately with

being connected intimately with thousands and thousands of people all

thousands and thousands of people all over the world in disperate uh locations

over the world in disperate uh locations uh with with disperate uh beliefs and

uh with with disperate uh beliefs and all of these types of things. It's just

all of these types of things. It's just we don't have the cognitive machinery.

we don't have the cognitive machinery. >> Too much load. It's way too much load.

>> Too much load. It's way too much load. >> And I I think this is, you know, back to

>> And I I think this is, you know, back to that utopian vision. I think the idea,

that utopian vision. I think the idea, at least back then, there was there was

at least back then, there was there was kind of this optimistic view that if if

kind of this optimistic view that if if the world is exposed to everybody else,

the world is exposed to everybody else, if everybody in the world is exposed to

if everybody in the world is exposed to everybody else, then it will

everybody else, then it will >> uh diminish judgments and stereotypes

>> uh diminish judgments and stereotypes and assumptions and we will have more

and assumptions and we will have more compassion for other people. not

compassion for other people. not realizing that that ability like all of

realizing that that ability like all of those things, stereotypes, assumptions,

those things, stereotypes, assumptions, like group affiliation, judgments,

like group affiliation, judgments, prejudice,

prejudice, >> really what those are are like cognitive

>> really what those are are like cognitive shortcuts. And so the more cognitive

shortcuts. And so the more cognitive load you put on people, the more you

load you put on people, the more you expose them to thousands and thousands

expose them to thousands and thousands and thousands of strangers, the more

and thousands of strangers, the more they have to rely on prejudice,

they have to rely on prejudice, assumptions, and stereotypes to make

assumptions, and stereotypes to make sense of the world. And so there it's

sense of the world. And so there it's just like a classic uh backfiring of of

just like a classic uh backfiring of of intentions.

intentions. >> Yeah. Um and this will come up I'm sure

>> Yeah. Um and this will come up I'm sure several times too, but that's probably a

several times too, but that's probably a cautionary tale for you know any future

cautionary tale for you know any future technologies we might think about.

technologies we might think about. >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> Okay. Put a pin in that one too.

>> Okay. Put a pin in that one too. >> So I hope I've established that yes

>> So I hope I've established that yes >> this is a very hard problem and it takes

>> this is a very hard problem and it takes a lot of brain power to do this. Okay.

a lot of brain power to do this. Okay. Let me give you some fascinating

Let me give you some fascinating fascinating uh examples of how we how we

fascinating uh examples of how we how we do connect and how our our brains work

do connect and how our our brains work when we're connecting with other people

when we're connecting with other people and and friends basically the

and and friends basically the neurobiology of friendship here. Okay.

neurobiology of friendship here. Okay. >> So for example, there's this thing

>> So for example, there's this thing called neurosynchrony. Okay. Uh it's

called neurosynchrony. Okay. Uh it's kind of like when brains become one. All

kind of like when brains become one. All right. So there's this really

right. So there's this really interesting study. They took they got I

interesting study. They took they got I think it was about 250 to 300 graduate

think it was about 250 to 300 graduate students at at this one university. Like

students at at this one university. Like they mapped out this social network of

they mapped out this social network of these graduate students. Okay. And then

these graduate students. Okay. And then they took a subset of them and they

they took a subset of them and they brought them in to the lab and put them

brought them in to the lab and put them in an fMRI scanner. They showed them um

in an fMRI scanner. They showed them um all sorts of different videos. It be

all sorts of different videos. It be funny videos, comedy sketches, you know,

funny videos, comedy sketches, you know, maybe documentaries,

maybe documentaries, um maybe uh uh political stuff, whatever

um maybe uh uh political stuff, whatever it was. all sorts of different kinds of

it was. all sorts of different kinds of videos, okay? And they measured um brain

videos, okay? And they measured um brain activity in different regions of their

activity in different regions of their brains. They could predict with a very

brains. They could predict with a very very high degree of fidelity just from

very high degree of fidelity just from these brain scans who were friends.

these brain scans who were friends. >> If they had kind of matching neural

>> If they had kind of matching neural responses to these different videos that

responses to these different videos that predicted how how the friendship network

predicted how how the friendship network that they mapped out.

that they mapped out. >> That's fascinating.

>> That's fascinating. >> Isn't that crazy?

>> Isn't that crazy? >> That but that okay, there's a chicken

>> That but that okay, there's a chicken and the egg thing here. It's like, are

and the egg thing here. It's like, are those people friends because

those people friends because >> their neural networks map out the same

>> their neural networks map out the same around the same stimuli or

around the same stimuli or do their neurons map out similarly

do their neurons map out similarly because they're friends?

because they're friends? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Um,

>> or do we know? >> I don't know if we know. I don't I don't

>> I don't know if we know. I don't I don't know if they address that in the study

know if they address that in the study actually. It's probably both.

actually. It's probably both. >> It probably is a little bit of both.

>> It probably is a little bit of both. >> Uh, some of the other stuff I'll bring

>> Uh, some of the other stuff I'll bring up I think kind of corroborates this

up I think kind of corroborates this though. Okay. So um

though. Okay. So um because the similarity even persisted

because the similarity even persisted even when they controlled for things

even when they controlled for things like demographics like age even too. So

like demographics like age even too. So you had some older grad students some

you had some older grad students some younger ones uh backgrounds ethnicity uh

younger ones uh backgrounds ethnicity uh socioeconomic status all of that. Okay.

socioeconomic status all of that. Okay. >> Their conclusion anyway from all of this

>> Their conclusion anyway from all of this it wasn't like we didn't we didn't grow

it wasn't like we didn't we didn't grow up the same or we don't like the same

up the same or we don't like the same things is that we have really the same

things is that we have really the same brain patterns around

brain patterns around >> or how we see the world even too or how

>> or how we see the world even too or how we interpret what's coming in.

we interpret what's coming in. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, they call this

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, they call this neurohomophil. Okay.

neurohomophil. Okay. >> Homophy.

>> Homophy. >> I thought it was homophily for a little

>> I thought it was homophily for a little bit, but I worked it up. It's homopholy.

bit, but I worked it up. It's homopholy. Okay. So, glad we got that.

Okay. So, glad we got that. >> Neural homopholy.

>> Neural homopholy. >> We are a big podcast now. So, we should

>> We are a big podcast now. So, we should we should pronounce things correctly.

we should pronounce things correctly. >> A lot of these words. I always see when

>> A lot of these words. I always see when they're written, I don't see them.

they're written, I don't see them. >> Neural homophy is a term that's used to

>> Neural homophy is a term that's used to describe how we're drawn to people's

describe how we're drawn to people's brains who literally fire like ours.

brains who literally fire like ours. Okay. So, like when I I I do think and

Okay. So, like when I I I do think and this is another point I'll make a little

this is another point I'll make a little bit later too, but

bit later too, but >> have you you ever like you meet somebody

>> have you you ever like you meet somebody and you just like you instantly click

and you just like you instantly click with them. There's probably there's a

with them. There's probably there's a neural basis for this. Okay. And this is

neural basis for this. Okay. And this is probably at least part of it.

probably at least part of it. >> Does this maybe apologies if I'm getting

>> Does this maybe apologies if I'm getting ahead, but does this have anything to do

ahead, but does this have anything to do with mirror neurons?

with mirror neurons? >> We're getting to that.

>> We're getting to that. >> Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. I I

>> Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. I I think another point that that might kind

think another point that that might kind of corroborate this evidence as as being

of corroborate this evidence as as being that that your brains just kind of

that that your brains just kind of operate the same is that even when they

operate the same is that even when they scanned them at rest when they weren't

scanned them at rest when they weren't watching anything when they weren't

watching anything when they weren't >> you know viewing any stimulus or

>> you know viewing any stimulus or anything like that there was still a

anything like that there was still a high degree of synchronicity between

high degree of synchronicity between those neural synchrony between which is

those neural synchrony between which is pretty that's pretty wild to

pretty that's pretty wild to >> your friends even nap the same way

>> your friends even nap the same way that's crazy

that's crazy >> nap rest yeah seriously just sitting

>> nap rest yeah seriously just sitting there and like daydreaming yeah it's the

there and like daydreaming yeah it's the same some of the implications of this

same some of the implications of this like your friends

like your friends you you're they're probably shaping too

you you're they're probably shaping too in some way. There probably is some back

in some way. There probably is some back and forth to that definitely when you

and forth to that definitely when you when you get with somebody and you jive

when you get with somebody and you jive with them then um you will over time

with them then um you will over time sync more and more. I'll get to that

sync more and more. I'll get to that here in a second too. But you're

here in a second too. But you're literally kind of shaping uh each

literally kind of shaping uh each other's brains or at least you're

other's brains or at least you're sharing some sort of like mind space

sharing some sort of like mind space with them and there's a neural basis for

with them and there's a neural basis for it.

it. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> It's wild.

>> It's wild. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like the big thing was from this is that

>> Like the big thing was from this is that it's not that you're like kind of seeing

it's not that you're like kind of seeing the world together. It's not you're

the world together. It's not you're seeing it from the same uh uh vantage

seeing it from the same uh uh vantage point. is that you're you're really

point. is that you're you're really seeing it in the same way.

seeing it in the same way. >> You you you view the world. You somehow

>> You you you view the world. You somehow have this neural similar neural activity

have this neural similar neural activity that causes you to view the world or

that causes you to view the world or interpret events or sensations or

interpret events or sensations or whatever it is in a very similar way to

whatever it is in a very similar way to somebody.

somebody. >> I feel like you see this most in married

>> I feel like you see this most in married couples. Like the the stereotype is that

couples. Like the the stereotype is that married couples after enough time

married couples after enough time together they become the same person.

together they become the same person. Right. Right.

Right. Right. >> And it's funny because uh my wife and I

>> And it's funny because uh my wife and I were just joking the other day about how

were just joking the other day about how similar we're becoming. like

similar we're becoming. like >> she So, just to give two examples, uh uh

>> she So, just to give two examples, uh uh my wife is one of the most like

my wife is one of the most like conscientious, organized, clean, very

conscientious, organized, clean, very buttoned up people. And I'm obviously a

buttoned up people. And I'm obviously a [ __ ] savage. And we were we were

[ __ ] savage. And we were we were sitting down for dinner and she uh she

sitting down for dinner and she uh she was really hungry and I had forgotten to

was really hungry and I had forgotten to get serving spoons and she I I was like,

get serving spoons and she I I was like, "Oh shit." I like got up to go to go

"Oh shit." I like got up to go to go back to the kitchen to get them and she

back to the kitchen to get them and she just like reached her hand into a bowl

just like reached her hand into a bowl of green beans and just took a fistful

of green beans and just took a fistful of vegetables and threw them on her

of vegetables and threw them on her plate. And I looked at her, I was like,

plate. And I looked at her, I was like, "What the hell?" And she was like, "I

"What the hell?" And she was like, "I guess I've been married for to you for

guess I've been married for to you for too long." It's but it's funny cuz I've

too long." It's but it's funny cuz I've noticed similar things like there are

noticed similar things like there are similar things that that she does that

similar things that that she does that I've started doing over the years and

I've started doing over the years and it's completely unconscious and it's

it's completely unconscious and it's it's like to the point. So, here's the

it's like to the point. So, here's the other example. Um, she's super picky

other example. Um, she's super picky about smells and um, and I've been, you

about smells and um, and I've been, you know, I've I've I started this second

know, I've I've I started this second company this year, so I've I've been

company this year, so I've I've been spending a lot of time at this

spending a lot of time at this co-working space with them, um, trying

co-working space with them, um, trying to trying to get that company off the

to trying to get that company off the ground. And, uh, in the there's a corner

ground. And, uh, in the there's a corner of the office at that co-working space

of the office at that co-working space that smells like a [ __ ] bathroom. And

that smells like a [ __ ] bathroom. And it's subtle, but every time I'm in

it's subtle, but every time I'm in there, I'm like, "Do you guys smell

there, I'm like, "Do you guys smell this? It smells like a [ __ ] toilet in

this? It smells like a [ __ ] toilet in here." And and my wife, my entire

here." And and my wife, my entire marriage, my wife has complained about

marriage, my wife has complained about smells. Like, she has zero tolerance for

smells. Like, she has zero tolerance for bad smells. And all the other guys at

bad smells. And all the other guys at the at the company are like, they just

the at the company are like, they just kind of, they're like, "What are you

kind of, they're like, "What are you talking about?" I don't smell anything.

talking about?" I don't smell anything. Like, God, Mark's like so whiny. Comes

Like, God, Mark's like so whiny. Comes in here, complains about smells all the

in here, complains about smells all the time. And uh and I was just It was

time. And uh and I was just It was really funny cuz I I like I was sitting

really funny cuz I I like I was sitting there complaining the other I'm like,

there complaining the other I'm like, "You don't smell this?" Like, "How do

"You don't smell this?" Like, "How do you work here? I I don't even think I

you work here? I I don't even think I can work in here anymore." And like to

can work in here anymore." And like to the point where I took my laptop and I

the point where I took my laptop and I went to the common area cuz I just

went to the common area cuz I just refused to work in the smell.

refused to work in the smell. >> And as I was sitting out there, I was

>> And as I was sitting out there, I was like, "Oh my god, I've become my wife."

like, "Oh my god, I've become my wife." >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you weren't like that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you weren't like that. You used whatever. Smell this, smell

You used whatever. Smell this, smell that, matter. Never.

that, matter. Never. >> No. That's wild. That's wild. Not only

>> No. That's wild. That's wild. Not only Not only when you meet somebody who kind

Not only when you meet somebody who kind of like sees the world you the the world

of like sees the world you the the world in the way you do, but also over time

in the way you do, but also over time you kind of do get to this. And that's

you kind of do get to this. And that's that's another thing actually. um on

that's another thing actually. um on here that I have is inter interpersonal

here that I have is inter interpersonal neural coupling

neural coupling >> um is another kind of mechanism a very

>> um is another kind of mechanism a very related one uh too. It's basically every

related one uh too. It's basically every conversation you have is literally like

conversation you have is literally like a braintobrain linkup.

a braintobrain linkup. >> So there's uh they've put people they've

>> So there's uh they've put people they've had two people have a conversation um

had two people have a conversation um and you the person listening is usually

and you the person listening is usually si simulating the same brain activity

si simulating the same brain activity that the speaker is with a slight lag

that the speaker is with a slight lag behind it

behind it >> which is pretty wild. Then they they

>> which is pretty wild. Then they they find that that coupling that that degree

find that that coupling that that degree of u um a similarity in their brain

of u um a similarity in their brain waves and the brain activity that they

waves and the brain activity that they measure on the fMRI is tighter and

measure on the fMRI is tighter and tighter uh if you're closer friends and

tighter uh if you're closer friends and if you've known each other longer and

if you've known each other longer and you have a closer relationship that you

you have a closer relationship that you start to mirror the

start to mirror the >> So cool.

>> So cool. >> Isn't that wild?

>> Isn't that wild? >> So cool. Like this is this is the same

>> So cool. Like this is this is the same sort of stuff like when we did the

sort of stuff like when we did the emotions episode with with the

emotions episode with with the co-regulation

co-regulation >> Yeah. piece like

>> Yeah. piece like to me it this both of those things I

to me it this both of those things I mean they're kind of the same thing but

mean they're kind of the same thing but like it's just so [ __ ] cool.

like it's just so [ __ ] cool. >> Yeah. I mean the researchers call it

>> Yeah. I mean the researchers call it like a super organism forms when when

like a super organism forms when when people are having a conversation like

people are having a conversation like this

this >> and it and it makes like I mean not to

>> and it and it makes like I mean not to to derail pull this too much back to the

to derail pull this too much back to the emotions episode but like it it it calls

emotions episode but like it it it calls back to the the power of talk therapy,

back to the the power of talk therapy, right? It makes sense, right? So it's

right? It makes sense, right? So it's like if if you have something inside of

like if if you have something inside of you that's been eating you up and and

you that's been eating you up and and really causing you to suffer when and

really causing you to suffer when and then you tell somebody about it,

then you tell somebody about it, >> you are generating that same neuronal

>> you are generating that same neuronal state in their mind that you have been

state in their mind that you have been experiencing

experiencing >> but because of their context and and

>> but because of their context and and their they don't have the same baggage

their they don't have the same baggage and background and assumptions and

and background and assumptions and history that you do. They're able to sit

history that you do. They're able to sit with it and handle it and carry it and

with it and handle it and carry it and due to the mirror neurons. So like they

due to the mirror neurons. So like they hear it, they feel your state, they

hear it, they feel your state, they understand what you're going through,

understand what you're going through, but they're okay. Then you can you can

but they're okay. Then you can you can empathize from them. Oh, I can be okay,

empathize from them. Oh, I can be okay, too. And you know, it's like you start

too. And you know, it's like you start to it's almost like you see the puzzle

to it's almost like you see the puzzle pieces of like why this this stuff

pieces of like why this this stuff works.

works. >> I I I would say you just defined what

>> I I I would say you just defined what the ideal therapist is. Yeah. Yeah. Is

the ideal therapist is. Yeah. Yeah. Is what you're saying. Yeah.

what you're saying. Yeah. >> It's so cool.

>> It's so cool. >> It's it's wild. No, it's absolutely

>> It's it's wild. No, it's absolutely wild. Um it but it is it creates this

wild. Um it but it is it creates this like shared brain state like I was

like shared brain state like I was saying and creates this super organism

saying and creates this super organism even too. So um I'm sorry but m Mark

even too. So um I'm sorry but m Mark maybe some of the woowoo crowd is like

maybe some of the woowoo crowd is like oh we're on the same wavelength like

oh we're on the same wavelength like they're almost kind of right. God damn

they're almost kind of right. God damn it. Yo true but not I mean they

it. Yo true but not I mean they >> we already did this last episode. We

>> we already did this last episode. We can't do this again. We gave them the

can't do this again. We gave them the resilience episode. We can't give them

resilience episode. We can't give them we can't give them this one too. tiny

we can't give them this one too. tiny morsel of truth in that the brain

morsel of truth in that the brain science seems to be backing that up just

science seems to be backing that up just a little bit here. Okay.

a little bit here. Okay. >> That that that there are vibes and you

>> That that that there are vibes and you need to be on the same wavelength. Is

need to be on the same wavelength. Is are you are you [ __ ] me?

are you are you [ __ ] me? >> I'm not not I mean no I don't think

>> I'm not not I mean no I don't think there's any like cosmic order to I think

there's any like cosmic order to I think it's just there's a there is a

it's just there's a there is a >> there's something to it.

>> there's something to it. >> There's something to it.

>> There's something to it. >> But it's funny because it's I mean it

>> But it's funny because it's I mean it makes it does it makes sense. So like

makes it does it makes sense. So like imagine imagine you meet somebody who

imagine imagine you meet somebody who just does like and you try to express

just does like and you try to express something to like we've all had this

something to like we've all had this experience. You meet somebody new. You

experience. You meet somebody new. You try to express some like maybe you try

try to express some like maybe you try to make a joke

to make a joke >> and like they are just not getting it

>> and like they are just not getting it like they they don't see what you see.

like they they don't see what you see. They don't understand what you

They don't understand what you understand. They like feel things

understand. They like feel things differently. They see things

differently. They see things differently. Like you can feel that on a

differently. Like you can feel that on a very deep level. And yeah, it feels like

very deep level. And yeah, it feels like a misconnection, like a like there's

a misconnection, like a like there's like a wire that's broken or something.

like a wire that's broken or something. >> I Yeah, you're absolutely that's a good

>> I Yeah, you're absolutely that's a good point. You can really feel this when

point. You can really feel this when it's not happening. Yes. You can really

it's not happening. Yes. You can really like I don't know. I I feel like I'm

like I don't know. I I feel like I'm very sensitive to that anyway. I come

very sensitive to that anyway. I come into a group or something like that, I'm

into a group or something like that, I'm like, "Oh god, I do not fit in here."

like, "Oh god, I do not fit in here." Most people can feel that, I think,

Most people can feel that, I think, pretty pretty easily.

pretty pretty easily. >> Yeah. And there's a dissonance to it,

>> Yeah. And there's a dissonance to it, which I think is probably why people use

which I think is probably why people use vibrations and and wavelengths and

vibrations and and wavelengths and energy as like the the metaphor is is

energy as like the the metaphor is is because it it does feel like dissonance.

because it it does feel like dissonance. I'm sorry, Mark.

I'm sorry, Mark. >> God damn it.

>> God damn it. >> Sorry I even brought that up.

>> Sorry I even brought that up. >> I feel like by by our 50th episode,

>> I feel like by by our 50th episode, we're gonna be coming in here in like

we're gonna be coming in here in like togas and sarongs and like lighting

togas and sarongs and like lighting incense.

incense. >> Yeah, I'll bring my crystals.

>> Yeah, I'll bring my crystals. >> Yep.

>> Yep. >> Stay tuned everybody.

>> Stay tuned everybody. >> Uh but you have Okay, you've mentioned a

>> Uh but you have Okay, you've mentioned a couple times now, but mirror neurons.

couple times now, but mirror neurons. Okay, now most people have probably

Okay, now most people have probably heard this about this at least in some

heard this about this at least in some capacity or another, but I think

capacity or another, but I think actually the way they were discovered

actually the way they were discovered was way maybe one of the most

was way maybe one of the most interesting interesting things about it.

interesting interesting things about it. Like almost all great scientific

Like almost all great scientific discoveries, it was discovered by

discoveries, it was discovered by accident. Um it was uh Gakamo result uh

accident. Um it was uh Gakamo result uh Relatis uh lab in Italy. Okay. And um

Relatis uh lab in Italy. Okay. And um what the the story goes anyway, so they

what the the story goes anyway, so they were studying um uh neurons in the

were studying um uh neurons in the preoter cortex of monkeys. Okay. So

preoter cortex of monkeys. Okay. So premortex is when you're planning

premortex is when you're planning motions. There's there's a entire little

motions. There's there's a entire little sliver of your brain dedicated just to

sliver of your brain dedicated just to that. Okay? So if you're reaching out to

that. Okay? So if you're reaching out to grab a glass or something like that,

grab a glass or something like that, first the premot motor neurons in your

first the premot motor neurons in your neoortex uh fire up and then they go to

neoortex uh fire up and then they go to your motor cortex to move it. Okay,

your motor cortex to move it. Okay, fine. So they were studying these

fine. So they were studying these neurons in monkeys and the story goes

neurons in monkeys and the story goes that one of his lab techs came in one

that one of his lab techs came in one day and was eating um ice cream or I

day and was eating um ice cream or I guess it's Italy. What are they? It's

guess it's Italy. What are they? It's not ice cream.

not ice cream. >> Oh, gelato.

>> Oh, gelato. >> Gelato. Yeah, it was probably gelato,

>> Gelato. Yeah, it was probably gelato, right? Yeah. And uh uh the story goes

right? Yeah. And uh uh the story goes one of these monkeys was hooked up uh to

one of these monkeys was hooked up uh to to their whatever uh equipment they were

to their whatever uh equipment they were using and um they're eating the ice

using and um they're eating the ice cream and neurons in the premoter cortex

cream and neurons in the premoter cortex of this monkey started to fire and they

of this monkey started to fire and they were like what the hell the monkey is

were like what the hell the monkey is not even moving.

not even moving. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Or not like then there's not not being

>> Or not like then there's not not being primed to move or anything like that.

primed to move or anything like that. Right.

Right. >> Can you tell this story in an Italian

>> Can you tell this story in an Italian accent?

accent? >> Wait the they are not even moving.

>> Wait the they are not even moving. >> I have Italian friends and they get so

>> I have Italian friends and they get so pissed off at me when I do that. The

pissed off at me when I do that. The monkey. He is not the moving.

monkey. He is not the moving. >> The monkey not the moving

>> The monkey not the moving >> with the You got to do the fingers.

>> with the You got to do the fingers. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you tell tell

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you tell tell the story with the fingo, if you're

the story with the fingo, if you're watching this, I'm very sorry. I know

watching this, I'm very sorry. I know you hate it when I do that. I'm so

you hate it when I do that. I'm so sorry.

sorry. >> This a monkey.

>> This a monkey. >> Oh, baby.

>> Oh, baby. >> His neurons are firing.

>> His neurons are firing. >> You can't get cancelled by making fun of

>> You can't get cancelled by making fun of the Italians. All right. It's that

the Italians. All right. It's that >> Well, okay. For one thing, I'm not I

>> Well, okay. For one thing, I'm not I don't know how apocryphal this story is

don't know how apocryphal this story is because I Well,

because I Well, >> no, it actually does make sense. And the

>> no, it actually does make sense. And the labs I worked in, we were eating in

labs I worked in, we were eating in there all the time. And my the OSHA guy

there all the time. And my the OSHA guy supposed to the OSHA guy at our

supposed to the OSHA guy at our university was like, "Guys, what the

university was like, "Guys, what the [ __ ] You have food next to the

[ __ ] You have food next to the radiation fridge like this camp." So

radiation fridge like this camp." So this is probably if you're like, they

this is probably if you're like, they wouldn't have been eaten in the lab.

wouldn't have been eaten in the lab. They definitely would have been eating

They definitely would have been eating in the lab, right?

in the lab, right? >> But anyway, so he comes in, he's he's

>> But anyway, so he comes in, he's he's eating the gelato, and the these neurons

eating the gelato, and the these neurons are firing in the premoter cortex, and

are firing in the premoter cortex, and they're like, "What the hell is going on

they're like, "What the hell is going on here?" This was the discovery of mirror

here?" This was the discovery of mirror neurons right here. This is how they

neurons right here. This is how they figured it out. It was like, "Wait a

figured it out. It was like, "Wait a second. So, not only are there neurons

second. So, not only are there neurons that fire when you when you do an action

that fire when you when you do an action or when you observe an action too, a

or when you observe an action too, a subset of those exact same neurons that

subset of those exact same neurons that are involved in the movement or in the

are involved in the movement or in the reaction of whatever kind are firing as

reaction of whatever kind are firing as well. Okay, this is what they call

well. Okay, this is what they call mirror neurons. And so, it's not just

mirror neurons. And so, it's not just it's not just motor actions though. this

it's not just motor actions though. this is how they discovered it and they're

is how they discovered it and they're the most obvious ones. But it's also

the most obvious ones. But it's also things like uh especially in humans with

things like uh especially in humans with the you know our bigger neoortes and

the you know our bigger neoortes and stuff like that. We can um simulate

stuff like that. We can um simulate observations that we're having for

observations that we're having for people's intentions or their emotions as

people's intentions or their emotions as well. So like you know humans are pretty

well. So like you know humans are pretty good about uh emotional recognition from

good about uh emotional recognition from facial different differences in facial

facial different differences in facial uh features. Mirror neurons are firing

uh features. Mirror neurons are firing when that's happening or if you're sad

when that's happening or if you're sad or you're happy or something like that.

or you're happy or something like that. some of my sad and happy mirror neurons

some of my sad and happy mirror neurons will fire as well. Um so these kind of

will fire as well. Um so these kind of three things that we talked about you

three things that we talked about you know the neural coupling the

know the neural coupling the neurosynchrony the mirror neurons

neurosynchrony the mirror neurons >> again these are very very complex um

>> again these are very very complex um neurocognitive mechanisms um but they're

neurocognitive mechanisms um but they're highly conserved too uh evolution

highly conserved too uh evolution thought it was important enough to to

thought it was important enough to to keep it around so it has but it also it

keep it around so it has but it also it just it this is why we have these big

just it this is why we have these big beautiful messy brains too is to do

beautiful messy brains too is to do things like this this isn't the only

things like this this isn't the only thing you know obviously these aren't

thing you know obviously these aren't the only

the only mechanisms that we have of friendship

mechanisms that we have of friendship and connection and all of that, but

and connection and all of that, but these are three really big ones and

these are three really big ones and they're very very complicated and

they're very very complicated and fascinating and messy and yeah,

fascinating and messy and yeah, >> I'm just I'm really I I I actually am

>> I'm just I'm really I I I actually am having like one of those holy [ __ ] the

having like one of those holy [ __ ] the brain is so cool moments uh during this

brain is so cool moments uh during this section. It's

section. It's >> just imagining the the the intricacy and

>> just imagining the the the intricacy and the complexity of evolving like if you

the complexity of evolving like if you think about the eyeball, right? Like the

think about the eyeball, right? Like the fact that like I don't know like I can

fact that like I don't know like I can see you make a movement

see you make a movement >> and my brain is able to take the light

>> and my brain is able to take the light that is bounced off of your body in that

that is bounced off of your body in that configuration and automatically knows

configuration and automatically knows how to process it in such a way to

how to process it in such a way to imagine myself getting up and making the

imagine myself getting up and making the same movement as you.

same movement as you. That's just so [ __ ] amazing. That's

That's just so [ __ ] amazing. That's like it it is really incredible. And

like it it is really incredible. And then you think about like movies and TV

then you think about like movies and TV and and theater and performance art and

and and theater and performance art and everything like it's it's just it all of

everything like it's it's just it all of it is playing on our mirror neurons and

it is playing on our mirror neurons and our ability to like um project ourselves

our ability to like um project ourselves into situations and empathize with

into situations and empathize with >> um complete strangers really like it is

>> um complete strangers really like it is really incredible.

really incredible. >> We'll have to get some weed with our

>> We'll have to get some weed with our spirit crystals I think too like get

spirit crystals I think too like get high.

high. Um but that I mean so it goes from we

Um but that I mean so it goes from we have these complex uh nervous systems in

have these complex uh nervous systems in general and and brains in order to

general and and brains in order to navigate all these complex social

navigate all these complex social interactions that we have and friendship

interactions that we have and friendship is is among the the most complex of

is is among the the most complex of those interactions that we might have.

those interactions that we might have. And so just again, if you think making

And so just again, if you think making friends is hard, well, it is on every

friends is hard, well, it is on every single level you can think of, all the

single level you can think of, all the way down to the like neurons that are

way down to the like neurons that are firing in your brain. It is a difficult

firing in your brain. It is a difficult problem to solve. And so take a little

problem to solve. And so take a little solace in that, I think, is is is what I

solace in that, I think, is is is what I want you to take from that little

want you to take from that little section. Anyway,

section. Anyway, >> I think it's also really cool and kind

>> I think it's also really cool and kind of I don't know, poetic or ironic that

of I don't know, poetic or ironic that it it's like human rationality

it it's like human rationality happened as a side effect of evolving

happened as a side effect of evolving the ability to socialize and and develop

the ability to socialize and and develop social relationships with each other.

social relationships with each other. Like it's it's rationality wasn't the

Like it's it's rationality wasn't the point. It was just

point. It was just >> the the tool that was necessary to uh to

>> the the tool that was necessary to uh to develop social relationships and

develop social relationships and maintain them over a long period of

maintain them over a long period of time.

time. >> Right. I you really have to work at

>> Right. I you really have to work at rationality, too. It's not like a

rationality, too. It's not like a built-in, you know, like

built-in, you know, like >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um, connecting with people is more more

>> Um, connecting with people is more more innate to us than like logic, right? You

innate to us than like logic, right? You know what I mean? We're not we're not

know what I mean? We're not we're not logical,

logical, >> which is anybody who's been on Twitter

>> which is anybody who's been on Twitter lately can it's very obvious to you.

Um it does kind of and maybe we'll put a pin in this one too because we are going

pin in this one too because we are going to talk about this a little bit later

to talk about this a little bit later but you know it does kind of raise the

but you know it does kind of raise the question

question what what happens to our neural like our

what what happens to our neural like our neural coupling and the mirror neurons

neural coupling and the mirror neurons and everything when more of our

and everything when more of our communication is

communication is uh more and more distributed more and

uh more and more distributed more and more uh asynchronous

more uh asynchronous >> like maybe put a pin in this one but

>> like maybe put a pin in this one but like you start to see like you don't

like you start to see like you don't have there is no neural coupling there

have there is no neural coupling there There's no

There's no >> the mirror neurons aren't firing when

>> the mirror neurons aren't firing when you're texting somebody or when you're

you're texting somebody or when you're communicating online as much or even

communicating online as much or even even like a Zoom call, you know, the

even like a Zoom call, you know, the loss of fidelity that you have in a

loss of fidelity that you have in a video um chat.

video um chat. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> There's there's a loss of uh mirror

>> There's there's a loss of uh mirror neuron firing in that. There's a loss of

neuron firing in that. There's a loss of neural coupling uh and neurosynchrony

neural coupling uh and neurosynchrony there too. So, this is something I think

there too. So, this is something I think that, you know, you don't really quite

that, you know, you don't really quite think of. And again, why I think, as

think of. And again, why I think, as we'll see later a little bit too, is

we'll see later a little bit too, is that why digital communication isn't

that why digital communication isn't necessarily a good substrate for uh at

necessarily a good substrate for uh at least not for like really deepening your

least not for like really deepening your friendships or even maintaining them.

friendships or even maintaining them. Yeah. Over over time.

Yeah. Over over time. >> Yeah. Well, definitely excited to talk

>> Yeah. Well, definitely excited to talk about that. But yeah, I think we've all

about that. But yeah, I think we've all had the experience of maybe texting

had the experience of maybe texting something to somebody or receiving a

something to somebody or receiving a text from somebody uh that sounds

text from somebody uh that sounds absolutely awful or is completely taken

absolutely awful or is completely taken the wrong way and then you you actually

the wrong way and then you you actually see the person face to face and talk to

see the person face to face and talk to them and you realize it was a the whole

them and you realize it was a the whole thing was a misunderstanding,

thing was a misunderstanding, >> right? Or like you know during the

>> right? Or like you know during the pandemic you know the the like Zoom

pandemic you know the the like Zoom parties were kind of a thing for a while

parties were kind of a thing for a while there and I was always just so like gh

there and I was always just so like gh >> when I got done I was like that was so

>> when I got done I was like that was so unsatisfying you know

unsatisfying you know >> too cool. You're too cool Drew. just

>> too cool. You're too cool Drew. just >> I don't know maybe I just have a

>> I don't know maybe I just have a well-developed mirror neuron

well-developed mirror neuron >> maybe

>> maybe >> system I don't know I don't know

>> system I don't know I don't know >> maybe

>> maybe >> um I want to end the section though too

>> um I want to end the section though too so not all just uh neuroscience but a

so not all just uh neuroscience but a little bit more mixed in some of the uh

little bit more mixed in some of the uh kind of health uh benefits and

kind of health uh benefits and ramifications I think of friendships and

ramifications I think of friendships and you know you did mention already that

you know you did mention already that there's all these health benefits to um

there's all these health benefits to um to friendship but I want to go over some

to friendship but I want to go over some of them a little bit more in detail some

of them a little bit more in detail some of the more interesting ones. Anyway,

of the more interesting ones. Anyway, this idea has actually been around for a

this idea has actually been around for a long time. So, there's there's now, you

long time. So, there's there's now, you know, there's the loneliness epidemic

know, there's the loneliness epidemic and

and >> you know, uh the social connection

>> you know, uh the social connection crisis and all these things going around

crisis and all these things going around and I'm sure people are aware that like

and I'm sure people are aware that like yeah, there's there's health

yeah, there's there's health consequences to this. Back in the

consequences to this. Back in the resilience episode, too, we talked about

resilience episode, too, we talked about the Rosettto effect, right? Remember

the Rosettto effect, right? Remember Rosettto, Pennsylvania? There was this

Rosettto, Pennsylvania? There was this small Italian immigrant community there

small Italian immigrant community there who they smoked, they drank, they, you

who they smoked, they drank, they, you know,

know, >> gelato.

>> gelato. >> They ate a bunch of gelato. They didn't

>> They ate a bunch of gelato. They didn't uh they didn't exercise really

uh they didn't exercise really intentionally, but they lived like these

intentionally, but they lived like these long really healthy lives. And it was

long really healthy lives. And it was because they had these strong strong

because they had these strong strong social ties, right?

social ties, right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Goes back even further than that though,

>> Goes back even further than that though, too. There was this Persian um

too. There was this Persian um philosopher named or he's a physician

philosopher named or he's a physician kind of physician philosopher named

kind of physician philosopher named Ibans Cena. We know him in the west as

Ibans Cena. We know him in the west as Avena I think is how you say it.

Avena I think is how you say it. He actually prescribed though friendship

He actually prescribed though friendship as um like a medicine almost because he

as um like a medicine almost because he noticed just how how much healthier

noticed just how how much healthier people who had like strong social

people who had like strong social networks were than people who didn't.

networks were than people who didn't. >> Um he believes things like you know

>> Um he believes things like you know isolation made people ill. This was

isolation made people ill. This was thousands of years ago too. This was

thousands of years ago too. This was about about a thousand years ago

about about a thousand years ago actually. Um he would also do this thing

actually. Um he would also do this thing where he matched temperaments.

where he matched temperaments. >> Um like so if you were a melancholic,

>> Um like so if you were a melancholic, you know, a sad person, you needed to be

you know, a sad person, you needed to be around cheerful people. And if you were

around cheerful people. And if you were like a stressed out person, you need to

like a stressed out person, you need to be around calm people, you know, that

be around calm people, you know, that kind of thing. Kind of simplistic, but

kind of thing. Kind of simplistic, but also probably kind of wise in a lot of

also probably kind of wise in a lot of ways, too. Uh he recommended he he would

ways, too. Uh he recommended he he would prescribe shared meals, conversation,

prescribe shared meals, conversation, and playful gatherings as deliberate

and playful gatherings as deliberate therapies even too. Okay. What this was

therapies even too. Okay. What this was again a thousand years ago, he he was

again a thousand years ago, he he was already on top of this, right? And

already on top of this, right? And modern medicine showed there's actually

modern medicine showed there's actually something to this, right?

something to this, right? >> Friendship isn't just emotional. It it

>> Friendship isn't just emotional. It it literally extends your life. Okay? So,

literally extends your life. Okay? So, um, one study, um, that I came across

um, one study, um, that I came across found that people with a more developed

found that people with a more developed and stronger social network had a about

and stronger social network had a about a 50% decrease in mortality over a

a 50% decrease in mortality over a seven-year period than people who were

seven-year period than people who were self-reported themselves as more lonely

self-reported themselves as more lonely and had weaker ties with with people as

and had weaker ties with with people as well.

well. >> There's even some evidence to suggest

>> There's even some evidence to suggest that like loneliness can be as bad like

that like loneliness can be as bad like chronic loneliness and social isolation

chronic loneliness and social isolation can be as bad or worse for you than

can be as bad or worse for you than smoking about a pack of cigarettes a

smoking about a pack of cigarettes a day, 15 to 20 cigarettes a day. That's

day, 15 to 20 cigarettes a day. That's mind-blowing.

mind-blowing. >> Which is insane because like you and I

>> Which is insane because like you and I are both former smokers. You know how

are both former smokers. You know how [ __ ] terrible it is for you, right?

[ __ ] terrible it is for you, right? >> And social isolation is even worse than

>> And social isolation is even worse than that.

that. >> Um and then you think about all heart

>> Um and then you think about all heart disease and all of that, right?

disease and all of that, right? >> Social groups and diverse social groups

>> Social groups and diverse social groups tend to encourage healthier habits as

tend to encourage healthier habits as well. Um one of the like just getting up

well. Um one of the like just getting up and going out and going places with your

and going out and going places with your friends that just you you get the

friends that just you you get the exercise benefits from that. Um, if you

exercise benefits from that. Um, if you do have like healthconscious friends

do have like healthconscious friends though too, those habits will rub off on

though too, those habits will rub off on you. There's also this kind of whole

you. There's also this kind of whole suite of uh uh physiological responses

suite of uh uh physiological responses that your your body and brain has when

that your your body and brain has when you're in the presence of friends like

you're in the presence of friends like lower blood pressure. Um,

lower blood pressure. Um, uh, better immune like when they take

uh, better immune like when they take blood draws, you have better immune

blood draws, you have better immune markers in your in your blood,

markers in your in your blood, >> lower inflammation, too, and protection

>> lower inflammation, too, and protection against heart disease. I want to go back

against heart disease. I want to go back to the inflammation thing real quick.

to the inflammation thing real quick. This was something I came across that I

This was something I came across that I thought was really really fascinating

thought was really really fascinating too and relates back to the evolutionary

too and relates back to the evolutionary stuff.

stuff. >> Um, when you are socially isolated or

>> Um, when you are socially isolated or alone um at least for longer periods of

alone um at least for longer periods of time or in any situation where you don't

time or in any situation where you don't want to be alone, inflammation markers

want to be alone, inflammation markers upregulate in your body. Yeah. Now, why

upregulate in your body. Yeah. Now, why would this be? This is kind of weird.

would this be? This is kind of weird. >> Well, what they think is,

>> Well, what they think is, >> you know, a socially isolated human in

>> you know, a socially isolated human in our evolutionary past was probably a

our evolutionary past was probably a dead human. Yeah. or at least you were

dead human. Yeah. or at least you were very very likely to be or much more

very very likely to be or much more likely to be um physically injured. And

likely to be um physically injured. And so upregulating those inflammation

so upregulating those inflammation markers kind of readied you for that,

markers kind of readied you for that, right?

right? >> So, you know, if you're alone, you have

>> So, you know, if you're alone, you have a higher higher chance of being

a higher higher chance of being physically injured and so your body's

physically injured and so your body's like, "Okay, let's just prepare for

like, "Okay, let's just prepare for this, right?"

this, right?" >> Okay, no big deal if you then rejoin the

>> Okay, no big deal if you then rejoin the group and then those inflammation

group and then those inflammation markers come back down. That's why we

markers come back down. That's why we see this like lower inflammation markers

see this like lower inflammation markers in people who have stronger social

in people who have stronger social networks. But the thing is is that in

networks. But the thing is is that in modern society where we're uh you you

modern society where we're uh you you might suffer from chronic loneliness or

might suffer from chronic loneliness or social isolation or just stress in

social isolation or just stress in general that upregulates all that

general that upregulates all that inflammation. Yeah.

inflammation. Yeah. >> Long term that's very harmful for you.

>> Long term that's very harmful for you. So in the short term that's adaptive for

So in the short term that's adaptive for like any injury you might cause. It'll

like any injury you might cause. It'll help you deal with that injury, physical

help you deal with that injury, physical injury.

injury. >> Longer term though it it wears on like

>> Longer term though it it wears on like your your your vessels, your blood

your your your vessels, your blood vessels. uh you know longer exposure to

vessels. uh you know longer exposure to cortisol uh it messes with your

cortisol uh it messes with your metabolism long term screws up like your

metabolism long term screws up like your your hunger and thirst and all of that

your hunger and thirst and all of that kind of stuff. So there's actual like

kind of stuff. So there's actual like physical things that happen to you when

physical things that happen to you when you are socially isolated isolated that

you are socially isolated isolated that that can lead to long-term chronic

that can lead to long-term chronic health conditions. It's so interesting

health conditions. It's so interesting and I don't this is not meant as a call

and I don't this is not meant as a call out but I do find it interesting or kind

out but I do find it interesting or kind of amusing that like

of amusing that like >> all of these health and longevity

>> all of these health and longevity experts that are huge now

experts that are huge now >> um

>> um >> you never hear them talking about

>> you never hear them talking about relation first of all they tend to all

relation first of all they tend to all be single men

be single men >> Yeah. Yeah. And second of all, uh, you

>> Yeah. Yeah. And second of all, uh, you never hear him talk about social

never hear him talk about social relationships or community. And again,

relationships or community. And again, that's not that's not a call out. Like

that's not that's not a call out. Like I'm a huge fan of

I'm a huge fan of >> like Huberman and

>> like Huberman and >> Tim Ferrris and a lot of what those guys

>> Tim Ferrris and a lot of what those guys do. But like it is just kind of I I

do. But like it is just kind of I I don't know. It's just funny like that.

don't know. It's just funny like that. It's knowing how big of an like what you

It's knowing how big of an like what you just said, social isolation is worse

just said, social isolation is worse than a pack of cigarettes a day.

than a pack of cigarettes a day. >> Yeah. And they're saying you should take

>> Yeah. And they're saying you should take this supplement.

this supplement. >> Yeah. Exactly. It's like AG1 is, you

>> Yeah. Exactly. It's like AG1 is, you know, this episode is brought to you.

know, this episode is brought to you. >> Yeah. It's it's um

>> Yeah. It's it's um >> I guess it comes back to the very first

>> I guess it comes back to the very first point I made at the top of the show,

point I made at the top of the show, which is like the the the delta between

which is like the the the delta between the importance of this topic and how

the importance of this topic and how much it's discussed is just it's

much it's discussed is just it's absolutely mindboggling.

absolutely mindboggling. >> I I think you do you generally do see it

>> I I think you do you generally do see it though like a lot of um unhealthy people

though like a lot of um unhealthy people are generally socially isolated. you

are generally socially isolated. you just anecdotally you see this everywhere

just anecdotally you see this everywhere and it's it's

and it's it's >> it's sad and you see it and it's it's

>> it's sad and you see it and it's it's it's heartbreaking.

it's heartbreaking. >> Um but yeah, there's there's all these

>> Um but yeah, there's there's all these physical health benefits. Obviously,

physical health benefits. Obviously, there's a lot of mental health benefits,

there's a lot of mental health benefits, too.

too. >> Um we've already alluded a lot of these,

>> Um we've already alluded a lot of these, but um isolations, it's a predictor of

but um isolations, it's a predictor of higher rates of depression and anxiety.

higher rates of depression and anxiety. friendship though, it lowers the uh the

friendship though, it lowers the uh the the risk or I'm sorry, it lowers the

the risk or I'm sorry, it lowers the recovery time that you have after uh

recovery time that you have after uh like surgeries and injuries and um even

like surgeries and injuries and um even even like life events that kind of take

even like life events that kind of take you down from depression and anxiety,

you down from depression and anxiety, you bounce back a lot quicker, too, when

you bounce back a lot quicker, too, when you have these social networks. I mean,

you have these social networks. I mean, to me, just the fact that

to me, just the fact that >> the worst punishment

>> the worst punishment >> that we know of short of the death

>> that we know of short of the death penalty is solitary confinement,

penalty is solitary confinement, >> right?

>> right? >> That you can take hardened criminals who

>> That you can take hardened criminals who have spent their entire lives being

have spent their entire lives being antisocial and violent and uh with awful

antisocial and violent and uh with awful relationships with everybody and the

relationships with everybody and the worst thing you can do to them is put

worst thing you can do to them is put them by themselves for a long period of

them by themselves for a long period of It's been outlawed in some states and

It's been outlawed in some states and some countries too because that's it's

some countries too because that's it's found to be so bad for you. It's so

found to be so bad for you. It's so terrible

terrible >> for your mental health and physical

>> for your mental health and physical health obviously as we just saw too. But

health obviously as we just saw too. But it's Yeah.

it's Yeah. >> It's it's like a cruel punishment at

>> It's it's like a cruel punishment at this point like like we've realized it's

this point like like we've realized it's like a cruel and unusual punishment that

like a cruel and unusual punishment that >> Yeah. You and you can literally drive

>> Yeah. You and you can literally drive somebody crazy. Yeah. If you if you put

somebody crazy. Yeah. If you if you put them in isolation long

them in isolation long >> in which case like death might not be a

>> in which case like death might not be a worse outcome for that. Um, another set

worse outcome for that. Um, another set of studies too though has shown uh the

of studies too though has shown uh the stress buff buffering effects. So

stress buff buffering effects. So interesting you just uh um mentioned

interesting you just uh um mentioned that I actually when I was doing

that I actually when I was doing research with monkeys, this was kind of

research with monkeys, this was kind of a one thing we did. We do these um what

a one thing we did. We do these um what you we call them social isolation uh

you we call them social isolation uh protocols and it's not as bad as

protocols and it's not as bad as solitary confinement. Okay. But yeah,

solitary confinement. Okay. But yeah, you would take a monkey um for a few

you would take a monkey um for a few hours out of their cage with their their

hours out of their cage with their their family groups and you'd put them in a

family groups and you'd put them in a cage by themselves and they would

cage by themselves and they would obviously have this like really

obviously have this like really measurable stress response. measure

measurable stress response. measure their cortisol or ACT or whatever it

their cortisol or ACT or whatever it was, whatever stress marker you were

was, whatever stress marker you were going to measure would always increase

going to measure would always increase during that that time period.

during that that time period. >> If you put one of their cage mates next

>> If you put one of their cage mates next to them though, like a one of their

to them though, like a one of their siblings or whatever, that that stress

siblings or whatever, that that stress response was blunted. It was it was

response was blunted. It was it was shortened. It was it came down.

shortened. It was it came down. >> Interesting.

>> Interesting. >> You see this in in humans as well. Yeah.

>> You see this in in humans as well. Yeah. >> You would put somebody in an fMRI or

>> You would put somebody in an fMRI or hook them up to like heart rate monitors

hook them up to like heart rate monitors and measure their cortisol response and

and measure their cortisol response and everything like that and give them

everything like that and give them electrical shocks. uh if they were

electrical shocks. uh if they were holding the hand uh of somebody that

holding the hand uh of somebody that they like a good friend or a spouse or

they like a good friend or a spouse or whatever that stress response was

whatever that stress response was blunted. Um it even worked if it was a

blunted. Um it even worked if it was a stranger too. It wasn't as it wasn't as

stranger too. It wasn't as it wasn't as strong of a a blunting effect but it

strong of a a blunting effect but it would even work in that case too.

would even work in that case too. >> So there's this stress buffering effect

>> So there's this stress buffering effect that that again uh that friends have

that that again uh that friends have like I was just talking about with the

like I was just talking about with the inflammation stuff. It's very similar to

inflammation stuff. It's very similar to that too.

that too. >> Um so we talked about this in resilience

>> Um so we talked about this in resilience as well. like the absolute best thing

as well. like the absolute best thing you can do for your like mental health,

you can do for your like mental health, your physical health is probably have a

your physical health is probably have a good social support network. Yeah.

good social support network. Yeah. >> And friends. So, yeah. Okay. One last

>> And friends. So, yeah. Okay. One last thing here.

thing here. >> There there's also and a lot of these

>> There there's also and a lot of these effects that I've just said, the mental

effects that I've just said, the mental health effects, the physical health

health effects, the physical health effects, the stress buffering, all of

effects, the stress buffering, all of that.

that. >> It's kind of a two-way street even too.

>> It's kind of a two-way street even too. Not only it's not only that like the the

Not only it's not only that like the the the person who has been socially

the person who has been socially isolated uh feels better when they

isolated uh feels better when they regain the group the the the other

regain the group the the the other people in the group also feel better

people in the group also feel better >> when the person

>> when the person >> when they're helping. Yeah. So there's

>> when they're helping. Yeah. So there's there's a reciprocal nature to this.

there's a reciprocal nature to this. Let's go back to the tiff or tiff for

Let's go back to the tiff or tiff for tat generous generosity.

tat generous generosity. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um and it's a two-way street here.

>> Um and it's a two-way street here. >> Well, this comes back to the happiness

>> Well, this comes back to the happiness episode where we talked about that

episode where we talked about that actually giving to people makes you

actually giving to people makes you happier than giving to yourself.

happier than giving to yourself. >> Right. Yeah.

>> Right. Yeah. >> Right. like it's it is actually one of

>> Right. like it's it is actually one of the highest drivers of happiness is

the highest drivers of happiness is helping others,

helping others, >> right? And this is I think this is the

>> right? And this is I think this is the point I was trying to just make about

point I was trying to just make about the the subjective balance

the the subjective balance >> in um in relationships.

>> in um in relationships. Just because I provide you like with

Just because I provide you like with something like some nourishment, social

something like some nourishment, social nourishment or whatever it is, doesn't

nourishment or whatever it is, doesn't mean that you owe me for that because

mean that you owe me for that because I'm getting something out of this too.

I'm getting something out of this too. Not

Not just there's there's a way to see this

just there's there's a way to see this subjectively where it's like okay I get

subjectively where it's like okay I get something out of this and so I'm not

something out of this and so I'm not going to sit here and keep track of

going to sit here and keep track of everything. Yeah. You know from that uh

everything. Yeah. You know from that uh uh point of view anyway.

uh point of view anyway. >> Yeah.

>> All right. Before we jump into some of the actionable advice, uh I do want to

the actionable advice, uh I do want to remind listeners that everything covered

remind listeners that everything covered in this podcast is available in a PDF

in this podcast is available in a PDF guide. It's at

guide. It's at solvepodcast.com/friendship.

solvepodcast.com/friendship. You can download it for free and check

You can download it for free and check it out. And also the solved membership

it out. And also the solved membership community. Uh every month we do a

community. Uh every month we do a corsified version of the podcast. So if

corsified version of the podcast. So if you are somebody who wants to work on

you are somebody who wants to work on your social life and you want everything

your social life and you want everything in this podcast broken down into daily

in this podcast broken down into daily exercises, things that you can go out

exercises, things that you can go out and do, work on yourself, try out uh to

and do, work on yourself, try out uh to make more friends in your life or

make more friends in your life or reconnect with old friends, that is

reconnect with old friends, that is available. That's at

available. That's at membership.solvepodcast.com.

membership.solvepodcast.com. And our own Drew Bernie is gonna be

And our own Drew Bernie is gonna be doing a live Q&A webinar for our

doing a live Q&A webinar for our membership. Uh, you definitely don't

membership. Uh, you definitely don't want to miss that. He's doing it because

want to miss that. He's doing it because I have no friends. So, we had to find

I have no friends. So, we had to find somebody who actually has a social life

somebody who actually has a social life here.

here. >> It'll be fun. Come check it out. Yeah,

>> It'll be fun. Come check it out. Yeah, it'll be a good time.

it'll be a good time. >> All right, on to the meat of the

>> All right, on to the meat of the episode. The how to make friends

episode. The how to make friends section. How do you make a friend, Drew?

section. How do you make a friend, Drew? How do you make a friend?

How do you make a friend? >> Well, I think it's a I mean, you're

>> Well, I think it's a I mean, you're going to get into this here, but I think

going to get into this here, but I think it's a simple but not an easy process,

it's a simple but not an easy process, right? There's there's some simple

right? There's there's some simple practices or simple principles, but

practices or simple principles, but >> implementing them is not always easy.

>> implementing them is not always easy. >> So, fun and true story,

>> So, fun and true story, >> uh, you and I have been working together

>> uh, you and I have been working together for

for >> 11 years, 12 years. 11 and a half, 12

>> 11 years, 12 years. 11 and a half, 12 years, something like that.

years, something like that. >> And it's funny because for years you've

>> And it's funny because for years you've been telling me, "Mark, we need to do

been telling me, "Mark, we need to do friendship content. Mark, we need to we

friendship content. Mark, we need to we we should do an article on friendship.

we should do an article on friendship. And every time we talked about it, I

And every time we talked about it, I would go look at the research and I

would go look at the research and I would be like, this is so

would be like, this is so >> [ __ ] simple and obvious. No, I'm not

>> [ __ ] simple and obvious. No, I'm not going to write an article about that.

going to write an article about that. But here we are. Uh it is shockingly

But here we are. Uh it is shockingly simple, but we will we will get into all

simple, but we will we will get into all of the reasons that people are finding

of the reasons that people are finding it more difficult and all the things

it more difficult and all the things that can kind of get in the way of

that can kind of get in the way of finding and and creating friendships.

finding and and creating friendships. But uh I will run through the research

But uh I will run through the research very quickly. It is not rocket science.

very quickly. It is not rocket science. None of this is going to surprise you.

None of this is going to surprise you. Basically, what researchers find is that

Basically, what researchers find is that making friends boils down to three

making friends boils down to three things. Number one is proximity.

things. Number one is proximity. How close are they to you? How often?

How close are they to you? How often? What are the chances you're going to run

What are the chances you're going to run into them?

into them? >> Are they in your neighborhood? Are they

>> Are they in your neighborhood? Are they in your your city? Are they going to the

in your your city? Are they going to the same school? Uh, basically, proximity is

same school? Uh, basically, proximity is the container of potential friends that

the container of potential friends that you can make. It's the people that you

you can make. It's the people that you >> I guess have access to, right? Like

>> I guess have access to, right? Like you're not going to you're probably not

you're not going to you're probably not going to make friends with somebody a

going to make friends with somebody a thousand miles away. Uh even if you

thousand miles away. Uh even if you happen to run into them just because

happen to run into them just because you're never going to see them again.

you're never going to see them again. >> Funny LA story. So for people who don't

>> Funny LA story. So for people who don't live in LA, LA is absolutely massive and

live in LA, LA is absolutely massive and the traffic is terrible and and the

the traffic is terrible and and the running joke in LA is that if you meet

running joke in LA is that if you meet somebody from the other side of LA,

somebody from the other side of LA, you're like, "Oh, it was great meeting

you're like, "Oh, it was great meeting you. I'll never see you again."

you. I'll never see you again." >> See you again. Yes. Uh and that is that

>> See you again. Yes. Uh and that is that has happened a number of times where I'm

has happened a number of times where I'm like,

like, >> you know, they tell me where they where

>> you know, they tell me where they where in town they live and I'm like, h might

in town they live and I'm like, h might as well be Dallas.

as well be Dallas. >> Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

>> Yeah. Right. Right. Right. >> Uh so proximity is the first one. Uh

>> Uh so proximity is the first one. Uh second one is repeated exposure.

second one is repeated exposure. >> And so this this is why we tend to make

>> And so this this is why we tend to make friends with people at work, people we

friends with people at work, people we go to school with, uh people who live

go to school with, uh people who live down the street. It's the more you see

down the street. It's the more you see somebody, the the the more likely you

somebody, the the the more likely you are to to become friends with them. And

are to to become friends with them. And then factor number three is reciprocated

then factor number three is reciprocated dis disclosure. And I'll get into this

dis disclosure. And I'll get into this one a little bit more. I think there are

one a little bit more. I think there are a few different ways to look at this

a few different ways to look at this one, but basically it's like are you are

one, but basically it's like are you are you open about yourself? Are you sharing

you open about yourself? Are you sharing information about yourself? And is the

information about yourself? And is the other person sharing information about

other person sharing information about them? So the way to look at this is uh

them? So the way to look at this is uh proximity. Factor number one is kind of

proximity. Factor number one is kind of the container of potential friendships

the container of potential friendships that you can have. Uh factor number two,

that you can have. Uh factor number two, repeated exposure is the probability

repeated exposure is the probability that you will become friends with that

that you will become friends with that person. Generally speaking, the more you

person. Generally speaking, the more you run into somebody, the more likely you

run into somebody, the more likely you are to become friends with them. And

are to become friends with them. And then factor number three, the

then factor number three, the reciprocated disclosure is the depth of

reciprocated disclosure is the depth of the friendship that you'll end up

the friendship that you'll end up having. So some people, you know, you

having. So some people, you know, you run into, we talked earlier about my

run into, we talked earlier about my poker buddies. There are I have poker

poker buddies. There are I have poker buddies that like I couldn't even tell

buddies that like I couldn't even tell you their last name or whether they're

you their last name or whether they're they have a girlfriend or not. Uh

they have a girlfriend or not. Uh obviously I'm not very good friends with

obviously I'm not very good friends with them but so

them but so >> you just know them by like snake eyes or

>> you just know them by like snake eyes or something like that.

something like that. >> Yeah. Um so it is you know the

>> Yeah. Um so it is you know the disclosure piece is and I'll talk about

disclosure piece is and I'll talk about this in a little bit but the disclosure

this in a little bit but the disclosure piece like really

piece like really >> that is a it is a necessary part of kind

>> that is a it is a necessary part of kind of going from the friend of utility or

of going from the friend of utility or friend of pleasure to a friend of

friend of pleasure to a friend of virtue. somebody who you you feel

virtue. somebody who you you feel emotionally attached to uh identify with

emotionally attached to uh identify with and uh you know respect and admire

and uh you know respect and admire simply for who they are. One thing that

simply for who they are. One thing that I find interesting is

I find interesting is and and again this this kind of comes

and and again this this kind of comes back to the idea that

back to the idea that >> this is just so painfully simple and

>> this is just so painfully simple and it's almost stupidly simple like so in

it's almost stupidly simple like so in psychology there's a thing called the

psychology there's a thing called the mere exposure effect. I don't know how

mere exposure effect. I don't know how familiar you are with that but it it's

familiar you are with that but it it's basically it's actually it's very

basically it's actually it's very prominent in advertising. So, if people

prominent in advertising. So, if people have ever wondered like why do why does

have ever wondered like why do why does Coca-Cola just buy billboards and run

Coca-Cola just buy billboards and run commercials everywhere? Well, it's

commercials everywhere? Well, it's because there's there's a thing called

because there's there's a thing called the mere exposure effect, which is

the mere exposure effect, which is generally that the more people see

generally that the more people see something or exposed to something, the

something or exposed to something, the more positively predisposed they are to

more positively predisposed they are to it. And it's just like a basic facet of

it. And it's just like a basic facet of human psychology. And advertisers

human psychology. And advertisers leverage it with with all the

leverage it with with all the advertising that they do. And it turns

advertising that they do. And it turns out the same thing is kind of true with

out the same thing is kind of true with people. Like if you run into the same

people. Like if you run into the same person over and over and over again, you

person over and over and over again, you just generally start having a positive

just generally start having a positive predisposition to them or you're much

predisposition to them or you're much more likely to have a positive predis

more likely to have a positive predis disposition to them. And I think this is

disposition to them. And I think this is very important to understand because I

very important to understand because I think a fallacy that maybe our

think a fallacy that maybe our generation made or like younger

generation made or like younger generations make is something that I'm

generations make is something that I'm going to call for the purpose of this

going to call for the purpose of this episode. I'm going to call it the peak

episode. I'm going to call it the peak experience fallacy. M.

experience fallacy. M. >> So, it's interesting. I actually had a

>> So, it's interesting. I actually had a conversation with a friend recently and

conversation with a friend recently and uh another guy in his 40s. We were

uh another guy in his 40s. We were talking about how much harder it is to

talking about how much harder it is to make and maintain friendships in our in

make and maintain friendships in our in middle age than it was like when we were

middle age than it was like when we were teenagers or 20. And uh and he said he's

teenagers or 20. And uh and he said he's like, you know, I think it's just all

like, you know, I think it's just all about, you know, creating these epic

about, you know, creating these epic experiences with people.

experiences with people. >> And yeah.

>> And yeah. >> Yeah. I told I was like

>> Yeah. I told I was like >> actually I was like I was totally that

>> actually I was like I was totally that guy. I was like, actually, let me let me

guy. I was like, actually, let me let me explain the research to you. But I've

explain the research to you. But I've noticed that this is a very common

noticed that this is a very common belief among people and particularly

belief among people and particularly younger people. Like they think that

younger people. Like they think that that the way you make friends is you go

that the way you make friends is you go on some epic trip together or you do

on some epic trip together or you do this insane party or concert or or

this insane party or concert or or something like that. And it is

something like that. And it is interestingly

interestingly what the research finds is that peak

what the research finds is that peak experiences don't create friendships.

experiences don't create friendships. What they do is they solidify

What they do is they solidify friendships that already exist. So they

friendships that already exist. So they like a a peak experience will take

like a a peak experience will take somebody who is a casual friend and

somebody who is a casual friend and potentially make them a good friend, but

potentially make them a good friend, but they will not take a stranger and make

they will not take a stranger and make them into a friend,

them into a friend, >> right?

>> right? >> And I don't know about you, but I've

>> And I don't know about you, but I've definitely made this mistake a lot

definitely made this mistake a lot throughout my life. I remember when I

throughout my life. I remember when I was like a in university, I I did a

was like a in university, I I did a summer abroad in New Zealand, and the

summer abroad in New Zealand, and the group of people that I was with, it was

group of people that I was with, it was people, it was kids from all over the

people, it was kids from all over the United States. So it wasn't I think I

United States. So it wasn't I think I was the only person from my school. So

was the only person from my school. So it was people from were from all over.

it was people from were from all over. And basically we spent like two months

And basically we spent like two months all day every day together in a foreign

all day every day together in a foreign country just having adventures, having a

country just having adventures, having a blast. And it's funny because that peak

blast. And it's funny because that peak experience, I mean, especially as a

experience, I mean, especially as a 20-year-old, it was a very intense

20-year-old, it was a very intense experience. It was very profound. It

experience. It was very profound. It felt very life-changing at the time. And

felt very life-changing at the time. And uh everybody grew very close very

uh everybody grew very close very quickly on that trip. And as we were

quickly on that trip. And as we were coming back, like there was very much a

coming back, like there was very much a sentiment that we were we were going to

sentiment that we were we were going to be bonded for the rest of our lives.

be bonded for the rest of our lives. We're going to keep in touch with

We're going to keep in touch with people. We're going to have like

people. We're going to have like reunions in different cities and people

reunions in different cities and people were going to drive to go see each other

were going to drive to go see each other and like all this sort of thing. And a

and like all this sort of thing. And a little bit of that happened like I ended

little bit of that happened like I ended up keeping in touch I think with maybe

up keeping in touch I think with maybe two or three people that I went on that

two or three people that I went on that trip with.

trip with. >> But it was funny because within a year I

>> But it was funny because within a year I I don't think I ever spoke to any of

I don't think I ever spoke to any of those people ever again.

those people ever again. >> Right. And and it's when I look back

>> Right. And and it's when I look back through my life, like I see this mistake

through my life, like I see this mistake made over and over again, and I still

made over and over again, and I still see it made with people I know today.

see it made with people I know today. >> Yeah. Consistency trumps intensity with

>> Yeah. Consistency trumps intensity with friendship. It absolutely does. And I

friendship. It absolutely does. And I know it sounds boring, but yeah. No,

know it sounds boring, but yeah. No, 100%. This is what I find with my

100%. This is what I find with my friends, too. Um over time, a lot of my

friends, too. Um over time, a lot of my friends, you know, what they'll thank me

friends, you know, what they'll thank me for is, hey, it's like really good

for is, hey, it's like really good hanging out with you. Glad we could grab

hanging out with you. Glad we could grab dinner on a consistent basis. This and

dinner on a consistent basis. This and that. Yeah, we've had we've went on

that. Yeah, we've had we've went on trips, international trips and all that,

trips, international trips and all that, but that that doesn't stick with them.

but that that doesn't stick with them. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> I've noticed I've noticed the flip side

>> I've noticed I've noticed the flip side of this as well. Um so I had a friend uh

of this as well. Um so I had a friend uh I I'll give him a shout out. Uh so Steve

I I'll give him a shout out. Uh so Steve Cam, founder of Nerd Fitness, is really

Cam, founder of Nerd Fitness, is really good friend of mine and um he and I

good friend of mine and um he and I became friends in New York and I was

became friends in New York and I was still kind of in my like big party phase

still kind of in my like big party phase or whatever and uh he wasn't as big of a

or whatever and uh he wasn't as big of a partyier. So like he wasn't he wasn't

partyier. So like he wasn't he wasn't one of my closest friends in New York. I

one of my closest friends in New York. I would see him occasionally and sometimes

would see him occasionally and sometimes we'd co-work together, but

we'd co-work together, but >> you know, we weren't like super tight.

>> you know, we weren't like super tight. And uh

And uh >> I had like my my New York friends that I

>> I had like my my New York friends that I went went out with all the time and but

went went out with all the time and but the funny thing is is that Steve is a

the funny thing is is that Steve is a video game nerd and I'm a video game

video game nerd and I'm a video game nerd and so he he eventually moved away

nerd and so he he eventually moved away from New York and we would just keep in

from New York and we would just keep in touch like to this day I think he and I

touch like to this day I think he and I text each other at least three or four

text each other at least three or four times a week.

times a week. >> Okay. Yeah.

>> Okay. Yeah. >> And 95% of those texts are about video

>> And 95% of those texts are about video games. It's like about the game we're

games. It's like about the game we're playing, about some boss we just beat,

playing, about some boss we just beat, about like some game that's coming out

about like some game that's coming out next month. Like that's that is 90% of

next month. Like that's that is 90% of our conversation. But it's funny because

our conversation. But it's funny because those conversations have slowly

those conversations have slowly accumulated over 10 years now. And it's

accumulated over 10 years now. And it's funny now because I actually talked to

funny now because I actually talked to him like I consider him a much closer

him like I consider him a much closer friend than any of the people in New

friend than any of the people in New York I hung out with

York I hung out with >> essentially

>> essentially >> for a few texts a week.

>> for a few texts a week. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it just it just adds up. And it's

>> And it just it just adds up. And it's funny cuz he was just out here and you

funny cuz he was just out here and you know he's been going through some

know he's been going through some personal stuff and like he and I had

personal stuff and like he and I had like a super deep conversation about

like a super deep conversation about life and and age and and marriage and

life and and age and and marriage and like all the stuff that that we've been

like all the stuff that that we've been going through and and it was like a very

going through and and it was like a very deep personal friend conversation

deep personal friend conversation >> and then we went back to texting about

>> and then we went back to texting about video games and and it's so it it's like

video games and and it's so it it's like >> what I've learned I guess the hard way

>> what I've learned I guess the hard way is that that's actually what building

is that that's actually what building friendship looks like. is like just a a

friendship looks like. is like just a a mountain of little pebbles stacked on

mountain of little pebbles stacked on top of each other.

top of each other. >> Yeah. It's not as sexy as people want it

>> Yeah. It's not as sexy as people want it to be, I think. But yeah.

to be, I think. But yeah. >> Yeah. I I will also bring up again the

>> Yeah. I I will also bring up again the uh the word that you pronounced so well

uh the word that you pronounced so well earlier, uh homopholy.

earlier, uh homopholy. >> There you go.

>> There you go. >> Which is basically that we tend to we

>> Which is basically that we tend to we tend to like people who are like

tend to like people who are like ourselves, right? And this again, this

ourselves, right? And this again, this is similar to the mere exposure effect.

is similar to the mere exposure effect. This is just human nature. It's not, you

This is just human nature. It's not, you know, you you could get all politically

know, you you could get all politically correct and argue that this shouldn't be

correct and argue that this shouldn't be the case, but the fact of the matter is

the case, but the fact of the matter is is that we we tend to associate and

is that we we tend to associate and relate to people who look like us, who

relate to people who look like us, who are same age, same gender, um same

are same age, same gender, um same occupation,

occupation, uh have similar interests and hobbies.

uh have similar interests and hobbies. Um so it is

Um so it is again being like painfully obvious. Look

again being like painfully obvious. Look for people who are into the same [ __ ]

for people who are into the same [ __ ] you're into.

you're into. >> Good place to start at least. Yeah.

>> Good place to start at least. Yeah. Yeah. And I honestly, so this is one

Yeah. And I honestly, so this is one thing that I kind of changed my mind on

thing that I kind of changed my mind on doing the research or not necessarily

doing the research or not necessarily changed my mind on, but I think I have a

changed my mind on, but I think I have a little bit of a different perspective on

little bit of a different perspective on it because I I think we're going to talk

it because I I think we're going to talk later about how the like, oh, just go

later about how the like, oh, just go join a gym or take a yoga class or

join a gym or take a yoga class or whatever, like how that advice is

whatever, like how that advice is >> maybe a little bit overrated. Um,

>> maybe a little bit overrated. Um, I think one of the things that the

I think one of the things that the conclusions I kind of came to like

conclusions I kind of came to like digging into this is that it's not

digging into this is that it's not necessarily the interests that create

necessarily the interests that create the friendship. It's the interests that

the friendship. It's the interests that create the repeated exposure for the

create the repeated exposure for the friendship to emerge.

friendship to emerge. >> Okay. Yeah.

>> Okay. Yeah. >> Right. Like it's not

>> Right. Like it's not >> like I'm not friends with Steve because

>> like I'm not friends with Steve because we both play video games.

we both play video games. >> It's the video games are the excuse for

>> It's the video games are the excuse for me and Steve to have exposure to each

me and Steve to have exposure to each other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times.

and hundreds of times. >> That's a really good point actually.

>> That's a really good point actually. Yeah, I and I think too and yeah, we

Yeah, I and I think too and yeah, we will get into that, but like the you

will get into that, but like the you know join a yoga class or you know go do

know join a yoga class or you know go do some interest group thing. I actually

some interest group thing. I actually kind of came the other way because I

kind of came the other way because I used to think ah it's kind of it I was

used to think ah it's kind of it I was like yeah it's super overrated now. I'm

like yeah it's super overrated now. I'm like actually there is a way

like actually there is a way >> to use this and I think that point

>> to use this and I think that point actually will come up again. So yeah,

actually will come up again. So yeah, >> I'm I'm excited to talk about that

>> I'm I'm excited to talk about that because it's like that's that is

because it's like that's that is as somebody who just went down that

as somebody who just went down that route and it didn't really turn up

route and it didn't really turn up anything. Um I I I think there's an

anything. Um I I I think there's an interesting conversation we have there.

interesting conversation we have there. >> Okay, cool.

>> Okay, cool. >> I I do think it's overrated, but I think

>> I I do think it's overrated, but I think I'm going to predict that your point is

I'm going to predict that your point is that it's just not done correctly.

that it's just not done correctly. >> Yeah, I think it's overprescribed, but

>> Yeah, I think it's overprescribed, but underdeveloped is what it is probably.

underdeveloped is what it is probably. Yeah,

Yeah, >> I think I would I would agree with that.

>> I think I would I would agree with that. >> The last thing I will say about this

>> The last thing I will say about this too, this relates to the proximity

too, this relates to the proximity piece, is that we don't think a whole

piece, is that we don't think a whole lot about the institutions and

lot about the institutions and communities and networks that we embed

communities and networks that we embed ourselves into. Mhm.

ourselves into. Mhm. >> Um

>> Um >> well, they're disappearing to which,

>> well, they're disappearing to which, yeah,

yeah, >> we're definitely going to come to that.

>> we're definitely going to come to that. But it is, for example, um you know, not

But it is, for example, um you know, not just the the neighborhood that you move

just the the neighborhood that you move to, but uh the company you take a job

to, but uh the company you take a job at, for instance, like let's say you get

at, for instance, like let's say you get two job offers, you know, one is from

two job offers, you know, one is from Apple and one is from like some small

Apple and one is from like some small local business with like 10 people.

local business with like 10 people. >> Um the social reality of both of those

>> Um the social reality of both of those companies is going to be completely

companies is going to be completely different.

different. >> You know, at Apple, you're going to be

>> You know, at Apple, you're going to be exposed to tons of people. you're going

exposed to tons of people. you're going to have probably a lot of infrastructure

to have probably a lot of infrastructure to create social relationships within

to create social relationships within like a lot of large corporations will

like a lot of large corporations will actually like plan things to foster

actually like plan things to foster friendships at work.

friendships at work. >> Um whereas at like a small local

>> Um whereas at like a small local business, you're probably going to see

business, you're probably going to see the same eight or 10 people over and

the same eight or 10 people over and over again and

over again and >> if you get along great, that could be

>> if you get along great, that could be amazing. But if you don't, like you

amazing. But if you don't, like you might just kind of be [ __ ] out of luck.

might just kind of be [ __ ] out of luck. Uh so that's just one example. There's a

Uh so that's just one example. There's a lot of uh downstream effects of thinking

lot of uh downstream effects of thinking about you know what career path you

about you know what career path you choose uh what religion you follow, what

choose uh what religion you follow, what hobbies you get into um as well as where

hobbies you get into um as well as where you live. So that's how to meet people.

you live. So that's how to meet people. And we're going to come back to that. I

And we're going to come back to that. I know you're you're going to talk about a

know you're you're going to talk about a bunch of strategies to meet people more

bunch of strategies to meet people more effectively and see people more more

effectively and see people more more frequently. Um, let's talk about

frequently. Um, let's talk about deepening relationships. So,

deepening relationships. So, the way I think about this is basically

the way I think about this is basically our emotional attachment to people tends

our emotional attachment to people tends to be in proportion to the sum of

to be in proportion to the sum of the emotional experiences we have with

the emotional experiences we have with them. Um, so I think one way to do this

them. Um, so I think one way to do this is is through vulnerability and that is

is is through vulnerability and that is simply because being vulnerable,

simply because being vulnerable, disclosing yourself, sharing very

disclosing yourself, sharing very personal details about yourself tends to

personal details about yourself tends to be an emotional experience, right? Like

be an emotional experience, right? Like you feel very emotionally close to

you feel very emotionally close to somebody that you share yourself with or

somebody that you share yourself with or they share themselves with you. But I I

they share themselves with you. But I I don't think that's the only way to do

don't think that's the only way to do this. And we're going to talk in a

this. And we're going to talk in a little bit about the differences between

little bit about the differences between men and women. And the and the reason I

men and women. And the and the reason I I didn't want to limit it to to

I didn't want to limit it to to vulnerability is simply because I've had

vulnerability is simply because I've had a lot of male friendships that I of of

a lot of male friendships that I of of guys I feel super close to and I

guys I feel super close to and I literally go years without having a like

literally go years without having a like a a deep personal conversation with

a a deep personal conversation with them.

them. >> But like they're like a brother to me,

>> But like they're like a brother to me, right? Like I feel a very intense

right? Like I feel a very intense attachment to them.

attachment to them. >> So that's one realization I had during

>> So that's one realization I had during all this too. Like oh [ __ ] Yeah.

all this too. Like oh [ __ ] Yeah. >> Yeah. I like that that bugged me. some

>> Yeah. I like that that bugged me. some of, you know, some of the research does

of, you know, some of the research does label the third factor vulnerability.

label the third factor vulnerability. Like I I like to see it more in terms of

Like I I like to see it more in terms of like

like disclosure or or emot shared emotional

disclosure or or emot shared emotional experience.

experience. >> Yeah, I like the word disclosure. I

>> Yeah, I like the word disclosure. I think we were earlier on we were using

think we were earlier on we were using vulnerability. I was like ah that like

vulnerability. I was like ah that like >> it doesn't have to be like your soul or

>> it doesn't have to be like your soul or anything like two dudes. I just like I'm

anything like two dudes. I just like I'm like no man I've had really good friends

like no man I've had really good friends that like I would never

that like I would never >> especially with like just exchanging

>> especially with like just exchanging information which isn't super vulnerable

information which isn't super vulnerable but just exchanging information can even

but just exchanging information can even be a connection path. Yeah.

be a connection path. Yeah. >> So I I see it in terms of the sum of the

>> So I I see it in terms of the sum of the emotional events or experiences that you

emotional events or experiences that you that you share together. So one and one

that you share together. So one and one version of that can be like

version of that can be like >> a deep vulnerable conversation. Another

>> a deep vulnerable conversation. Another version of that could be a peak

version of that could be a peak experience, you know, a trip together,

experience, you know, a trip together, uh, a concert, a crazy concert or a

uh, a concert, a crazy concert or a party together. Um, it could also be,

party together. Um, it could also be, uh, dealing with hardship together,

uh, dealing with hardship together, right? So, you you know, you there's a

right? So, you you know, you there's a very intense friendship and bond between

very intense friendship and bond between war veterans, you know, guys who served

war veterans, you know, guys who served in the military together. Um, generally

in the military together. Um, generally speaking, like tragedy can often bring

speaking, like tragedy can often bring people together, illnesses can bring

people together, illnesses can bring people together. The other thing I think

people together. The other thing I think this is very timely as well. I I wrote a

this is very timely as well. I I wrote a note here. This was not in the research.

note here. This was not in the research. I didn't see anything about this in the

I didn't see anything about this in the research, but I wrote a note just

research, but I wrote a note just because it's anecdotally very timely.

because it's anecdotally very timely. Like my wife just had a very good friend

Like my wife just had a very good friend of hers

of hers just went through a divorce and then

just went through a divorce and then went through a bunch of crazy [ __ ] in

went through a bunch of crazy [ __ ] in her life after the divorce.

her life after the divorce. And it's funny because like you know

And it's funny because like you know they grew up together then they kind of

they grew up together then they kind of grew apart for 10 15 years

grew apart for 10 15 years >> and then and then they were like barely

>> and then and then they were like barely even friends anymore for a little while

even friends anymore for a little while and then it's like something changed and

and then it's like something changed and happened that like they've grown very

happened that like they've grown very close together again. They've kind of

close together again. They've kind of like rekindled or re rediscovered their

like rekindled or re rediscovered their friendship. And it it's like I just

friendship. And it it's like I just think there's some and I think about

think there's some and I think about some people in my life as well like some

some people in my life as well like some of the guys that I grew up with. Um,

of the guys that I grew up with. Um, there's something about just being

there's something about just being present for a long period of time. Like

present for a long period of time. Like it just seeing somebody go through many

it just seeing somebody go through many life phases.

life phases. I think there's something about that

I think there's something about that that builds an intimacy. Like if I've

that builds an intimacy. Like if I've known college Drew and I've known grad

known college Drew and I've known grad school Drew and I've known Nomad Drew

school Drew and I've known Nomad Drew and I've known uh, you know, research

and I've known uh, you know, research Drew and I've known podcast Drew. like

Drew and I've known podcast Drew. like there's just a there's a certain level

there's just a there's a certain level of intimacy and comfort that that comes

of intimacy and comfort that that comes from sustaining multiple periods of life

from sustaining multiple periods of life together. I don't have any data to back

together. I don't have any data to back that up, but that's that's like that

that up, but that's that's like that just feels feels very true to me and I I

just feels feels very true to me and I I I wanted to like throw that out there.

I wanted to like throw that out there. >> No, I absolutely agree and I don't know

>> No, I absolutely agree and I don't know how far you want to get into this right

how far you want to get into this right now, but I've had this happen in my life

now, but I've had this happen in my life too actually with uh one friend in

too actually with uh one friend in particular that I'm thinking of. We've

particular that I'm thinking of. We've known each other since preschool.

known each other since preschool. >> Oh, wow. Wow. And we've gone through

>> Oh, wow. Wow. And we've gone through everything and he lives in a different

everything and he lives in a different country now, but um and he's went

country now, but um and he's went through a lot. He lost his wife a few

through a lot. He lost his wife a few years ago. He's been remarried and

years ago. He's been remarried and >> yeah, it's it like it's a completely

>> yeah, it's it like it's a completely different friendship that we have.

different friendship that we have. >> It is. Like when we were kids, it was

>> It is. Like when we were kids, it was and we'll talk about how friendship

and we'll talk about how friendship changes throughout the life, but

changes throughout the life, but >> it was, you know, surface level and fun

>> it was, you know, surface level and fun and this and that and then we've went

and this and that and then we've went through all the life up and downs and

through all the life up and downs and seen each other change. We've grown

seen each other change. We've grown apart. We weren't friends for a little

apart. We weren't friends for a little while. not not like didn't have a friend

while. not not like didn't have a friend break up or anything, but then

break up or anything, but then >> it's kind of like the virtue friendship,

>> it's kind of like the virtue friendship, Aristotle's virtue friendship, but it

Aristotle's virtue friendship, but it it's not, you know, because Aristotle

it's not, you know, because Aristotle really defined it as some is like uh

really defined it as some is like uh somebody's character you admire or like

somebody's character you admire or like somebody who you you love simply for the

somebody who you you love simply for the sake of being themselves.

sake of being themselves. >> And it and it's funny because I don't

>> And it and it's funny because I don't even know if it necessarily requires

even know if it necessarily requires admiration. It just like at a certain

admiration. It just like at a certain point I think being a part of somebody's

point I think being a part of somebody's life journey for long enough you develop

life journey for long enough you develop an emotional attachment and then also if

an emotional attachment and then also if that person's been part of your life

that person's been part of your life journey for long enough you also develop

journey for long enough you also develop an emotional attachment like like I

an emotional attachment like like I there there I have friends that I've

there there I have friends that I've known for decades and we've grown very

known for decades and we've grown very apart um not like in terms of how we

apart um not like in terms of how we feel about each other but it's just like

feel about each other but it's just like we don't really have anything in common

we don't really have anything in common anymore.

anymore. >> Yeah. But at a certain like there's some

>> Yeah. But at a certain like there's some threshold where you've known somebody

threshold where you've known somebody long enough and you've just seen them go

long enough and you've just seen them go through enough things and you've been

through enough things and you've been with them enough times that yeah it it

with them enough times that yeah it it almost becomes like a the chosen family

almost becomes like a the chosen family thing, you know? It's just it it like I

thing, you know? It's just it it like I see them more as like a brother or

see them more as like a brother or sister than I do a friend,

sister than I do a friend, >> right? like there there there's just

>> right? like there there there's just some constant uh uh element to this

some constant uh uh element to this relationship that you have that is like

relationship that you have that is like it's enduring enough that you're you're

it's enduring enough that you're you're willing to like even if they've changed

willing to like even if they've changed or you've changed a whole lot it almost

or you've changed a whole lot it almost doesn't matter because you've known

doesn't matter because you've known these different versions of themselves

these different versions of themselves and you know who they are and yeah

and you know who they are and yeah >> yeah I I I think there there is some

>> yeah I I I think there there is some enduring element of it speaking of which

enduring element of it speaking of which the research there is some research on

the research there is some research on how long it takes to develop to go from

how long it takes to develop to go from >> yeah I found this actually pretty

>> yeah I found this actually pretty interesting I don't know.

interesting I don't know. >> Uh

>> Uh >> I found this too. So yeah.

>> I found this too. So yeah. >> Yeah, it it's it's and it's much more

>> Yeah, it it's it's and it's much more than you would think. At least it's much

than you would think. At least it's much more than I thought.

more than I thought. >> Uh so the some researchers they estimate

>> Uh so the some researchers they estimate that to develop a casual friendship with

that to develop a casual friendship with somebody uh it requires spending 50

somebody uh it requires spending 50 hours with them approximately. Um to

hours with them approximately. Um to become a friend like somebody that you

become a friend like somebody that you consider a friend it's around 90 hours.

consider a friend it's around 90 hours. And then for a very close friend it's

And then for a very close friend it's 200 hours

200 hours >> which Yeah, that feels like a lot.

>> which Yeah, that feels like a lot. >> Yeah, it does. And and I people need to

>> Yeah, it does. And and I people need to realize that it is a lot too like that

realize that it is a lot too like that you have to be patient with this.

you have to be patient with this. >> Yeah. It's funny. I remember I I was at

>> Yeah. It's funny. I remember I I was at a party maybe a year or two ago and I

a party maybe a year or two ago and I ran into this guy super young,

ran into this guy super young, >> very uh very optimistic, you know, kind

>> very uh very optimistic, you know, kind of one of these like delusional tech bro

of one of these like delusional tech bro types. And uh he like with a very

types. And uh he like with a very straight face that he he said that he

straight face that he he said that he wanted to develop the technology that

wanted to develop the technology that solved the loneliness crisis. And of

solved the loneliness crisis. And of course, I became very amused and I was

course, I became very amused and I was like, "Tell me more." And um and it was

like, "Tell me more." And um and it was interesting because his strategy was

interesting because his strategy was basically he wanted to engineer like the

basically he wanted to engineer like the the highest peak experiences possible

the highest peak experiences possible >> with the least amount of effort.

>> with the least amount of effort. >> And I remember trying to explain to him

>> And I remember trying to explain to him that that that's just not how it works.

that that that's just not how it works. >> That's exactly backwards probably

>> That's exactly backwards probably actually. I was like I was like what you

actually. I was like I was like what you should be doing is is uh is is

should be doing is is uh is is engineering ways for people to see each

engineering ways for people to see each other repeatedly in very casual

other repeatedly in very casual situations over a very long period of

situations over a very long period of time. Like that's how you solve it.

time. Like that's how you solve it. >> And he he was like not having any of it.

>> And he he was like not having any of it. And then finally,

And then finally, >> well, that's not how to move fast and

>> well, that's not how to move fast and break things.

break things. >> Totally. Well, no. The funny thing is is

>> Totally. Well, no. The funny thing is is he and I went back and forth like I was

he and I went back and forth like I was like I'm sorry, dude. I'm like don't

like I'm sorry, dude. I'm like don't shoot the messenger. This is just this

shoot the messenger. This is just this is what the psych research says. And uh

is what the psych research says. And uh and then finally he just looked at me

and then finally he just looked at me and he's like yeah but dude that doesn't

and he's like yeah but dude that doesn't scale.

scale. >> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Yeah. Exactly. >> I was like

>> I was like >> exactly

>> exactly >> exactly

>> exactly >> friendships don't scale.

>> friendships don't scale. >> Friendships don't scale. That's why

>> Friendships don't scale. That's why they're meaningful. Yeah.

they're meaningful. Yeah. >> And go back to Dumbar's number, right?

>> And go back to Dumbar's number, right? You can't scale. You cannot scale your

You can't scale. You cannot scale your friendship network because you were just

friendship network because you were just cognitively limited. Yeah.

cognitively limited. Yeah. >> Yeah. Anyway,

>> Yeah. Anyway, >> as you said, consistency beats

>> as you said, consistency beats intensity. You know, 10 different

intensity. You know, 10 different one-hour hangouts is going to be beat

one-hour hangouts is going to be beat one epic 10-hour hangout

one epic 10-hour hangout >> uh in the long run. It isn't so much the

>> uh in the long run. It isn't so much the shared interest and values that

shared interest and values that make the friendship. I think they they

make the friendship. I think they they become the infrastructure that allow the

become the infrastructure that allow the friendship to emerge. It's really funny

friendship to emerge. It's really funny like that story I told earlier about my

like that story I told earlier about my friend who was like, I don't care if my

friend who was like, I don't care if my car buddies are good fathers.

car buddies are good fathers. I'm actually thinking there's wisdom in

I'm actually thinking there's wisdom in that.

that. >> Oh, so what do you mean? What do you

>> Oh, so what do you mean? What do you mean? Well, what I mean is like because

mean? Well, what I mean is like because I I think part and then maybe I'm

I I think part and then maybe I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but I think

jumping ahead a little bit, but I think I think maybe part of the problem these

I think maybe part of the problem these days is that we have too high of

days is that we have too high of expectations for friendships.

expectations for friendships. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. 100% agree.

>> Oh, okay. Yeah. 100% agree. >> Like we we think our friends should be

>> Like we we think our friends should be like amazing and and brilliant and into

like amazing and and brilliant and into all the same stuff we're into and um you

all the same stuff we're into and um you know, they should be able to teach us

know, they should be able to teach us something and we should be able to do

something and we should be able to do things with them. And it it's when I

things with them. And it it's when I think back throughout my life of like

think back throughout my life of like some of the closest friendships I've had

some of the closest friendships I've had or best friendships I've had, it's like

or best friendships I've had, it's like most of it is just like, yeah, I I I

most of it is just like, yeah, I I I just really enjoyed doing that thing

just really enjoyed doing that thing with that guy and and and

with that guy and and and he's fun to be around and and we respect

he's fun to be around and and we respect each other and uh yeah, I don't really

each other and uh yeah, I don't really care like what he does with half of his

care like what he does with half of his personal life. Like I don't I don't care

personal life. Like I don't I don't care if his wife was a [ __ ] or not. I don't

if his wife was a [ __ ] or not. I don't care if he like wants kids or doesn't

care if he like wants kids or doesn't want kids.

want kids. he can do whatever he wants. It's his

he can do whatever he wants. It's his life, you know? Like I just I don't

life, you know? Like I just I don't know. I may I'm not expressing myself

know. I may I'm not expressing myself very well right now. But I I do I do

very well right now. But I I do I do think um

think um >> I do think maybe maybe we're setting too

>> I do think maybe maybe we're setting too high of a bar for some of the the

high of a bar for some of the the relationships in our lives and and it is

relationships in our lives and and it is backfiring a little bit. Like you don't

backfiring a little bit. Like you don't need

need >> not every friend needs to be all things

>> not every friend needs to be all things for you. like you can totally just have

for you. like you can totally just have a a good a car buddy that you you like

a a good a car buddy that you you like love going to the racetrack with on

love going to the racetrack with on Saturdays and you know talking about

Saturdays and you know talking about sports and the weather and you know

sports and the weather and you know maybe bitching about

maybe bitching about >> your kids every now and then and like

>> your kids every now and then and like that's fine that's totally fine.

that's fine that's totally fine. >> Yeah. Yeah. I 100% agree and I think we

>> Yeah. Yeah. I 100% agree and I think we will get into that a little bit more in

will get into that a little bit more in a little bit.

a little bit. >> So what are what are some strategies

>> So what are what are some strategies Drew? like you know that's the high

Drew? like you know that's the high level I I just kind of laid out the

level I I just kind of laid out the highle terrain of like okay this is how

highle terrain of like okay this is how friendships are formed and this is

friendships are formed and this is generally what makes them you know

generally what makes them you know deepen and

deepen and >> uh this is how you build a social life

>> uh this is how you build a social life like what what are some actual

like what what are some actual implementable strategies that we can use

implementable strategies that we can use >> yeah maybe what we can do is kind of go

>> yeah maybe what we can do is kind of go over some of these strategies kind of in

over some of these strategies kind of in the abstract a little bit and then maybe

the abstract a little bit and then maybe we you want to try to like work through

we you want to try to like work through >> let's take like an example or even use

>> let's take like an example or even use ourselves like how would I do this or or

ourselves like how would I do this or or something like that can we do that

something like that can we do that >> I would love that.

>> I would love that. >> Okay, let's do that. Okay. Well, first

>> Okay, let's do that. Okay. Well, first of all, like let's kind of get your

of all, like let's kind of get your mindset around this. Um,

mindset around this. Um, >> one of the one of the things you just

>> one of the one of the things you just mentioned is like, yeah, there's

mentioned is like, yeah, there's probably not a perfect friendship out

probably not a perfect friendship out there. There's not going to be a perfect

there. There's not going to be a perfect friend for you. And so, yeah, okay, set

friend for you. And so, yeah, okay, set there. But, but there's a few other

there. But, but there's a few other mindsets I think you need to kind of

mindsets I think you need to kind of have going into this. One of them is

have going into this. One of them is just like assume people like you or at

just like assume people like you or at least will be receptive to you. Um

least will be receptive to you. Um there's what they call a liking gap.

there's what they call a liking gap. Researchers have found this. Like when

Researchers have found this. Like when you go have an interaction with a

you go have an interaction with a stranger and you walk away, you

stranger and you walk away, you generally think, "Oh, that didn't go so

generally think, "Oh, that didn't go so well and that person probably doesn't

well and that person probably doesn't like me." That's generally people tend

like me." That's generally people tend towards that.

towards that. >> Um when the data shows they'll go and

>> Um when the data shows they'll go and ask the other person, "How much did you

ask the other person, "How much did you like this person?" They either have a

like this person?" They either have a tendency to be like, "Oh yeah, they were

tendency to be like, "Oh yeah, they were they were they were great." Or at least

they were they were great." Or at least neutral. Most people aren't just going

neutral. Most people aren't just going to be like that person was a piece of

to be like that person was a piece of [ __ ] right? they or they're more

[ __ ] right? they or they're more forgiving to like a social socially

forgiving to like a social socially awkward interaction with them or

awkward interaction with them or something like that. People are

something like that. People are forgiving of that because we all do

forgiving of that because we all do that, right? Everybody everybody's so

that, right? Everybody everybody's so like worried about themselves. They're

like worried about themselves. They're probably not as as judgmental of you as

probably not as as judgmental of you as you think. So, I think first of all,

you think. So, I think first of all, just go into this thinking, okay,

just go into this thinking, okay, >> people are at least going to be

>> people are at least going to be receptive to me or at least some people

receptive to me or at least some people are. There's people out there who are.

are. There's people out there who are. Um, I've gotten better, I guess, over

Um, I've gotten better, I guess, over the years of just because I wanted

the years of just because I wanted everybody to like me at one point in my

everybody to like me at one point in my life, like everybody probably does when

life, like everybody probably does when you're a younger person, you do. I've

you're a younger person, you do. I've gotten better at, ah, that person went

gotten better at, ah, that person went away from that wasn't my best work,

away from that wasn't my best work, right? They probably don't like me, and

right? They probably don't like me, and I'm okay with that. Yeah. Um, because I

I'm okay with that. Yeah. Um, because I like there's somebody out there who's as

like there's somebody out there who's as weird as me and as, you know, as as

weird as me and as, you know, as as quirky and neurotic as me and all of

quirky and neurotic as me and all of that. So, assume that people are going

that. So, assume that people are going to like you, okay? Or at least be

to like you, okay? Or at least be receptive um to you.

receptive um to you. Another thing like some of this is going

Another thing like some of this is going to be uncomfortable when we're going to

to be uncomfortable when we're going to get into some of these examples. It's

get into some of these examples. It's probably you're probably going to get a

probably you're probably going to get a little squeamish at some of this. It's

little squeamish at some of this. It's going to suck. Some of it's going to

going to suck. Some of it's going to suck. Okay? So,

suck. Okay? So, >> be prepared for that. Go back and listen

>> be prepared for that. Go back and listen to the resilience episode if that's what

to the resilience episode if that's what you need, right?

you need, right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Don't discount friendship either. I

>> Don't discount friendship either. I think sometimes people are like, "It's

think sometimes people are like, "It's hard to make friends, so just [ __ ] them,

hard to make friends, so just [ __ ] them, you know? Not going to do this."

you know? Not going to do this." >> Negative self-perceptions, too. If you

>> Negative self-perceptions, too. If you are kind of a more neurotic person and

are kind of a more neurotic person and you go around, people don't like me and

you go around, people don't like me and you're very kind of obsessed with that

you're very kind of obsessed with that part of yourself, probably get some

part of yourself, probably get some therapy around that. Honestly, CBT does

therapy around that. Honestly, CBT does wonders around this.

wonders around this. >> Yeah, it we we'll get into this in the

>> Yeah, it we we'll get into this in the toxic friendship

toxic friendship >> segment, but it it is your

>> segment, but it it is your self-perception is your relationship

self-perception is your relationship with yourself is very much reflected in

with yourself is very much reflected in your relationships with others. And so

your relationships with others. And so if you kind of walk around

if you kind of walk around >> thinking you're an unlikable person,

>> thinking you're an unlikable person, >> um,

>> um, >> you're going to attract a lot of people

>> you're going to attract a lot of people who don't like you, basically. Because

who don't like you, basically. Because anybody who does like you is going to be

anybody who does like you is going to be like, well,

like, well, >> what am I doing here? If if if I'm

>> what am I doing here? If if if I'm trying to be friends with you and you

trying to be friends with you and you just keep, you know, keep hating on

just keep, you know, keep hating on yourself.

yourself. >> It's exhausting.

>> It's exhausting. >> Yeah, it is exhausting.

>> Yeah, it is exhausting. >> It's just exhausting. Yeah.

>> It's just exhausting. Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Um, so like like get your mindset around

Um, so like like get your mindset around this, you know, right before you before

this, you know, right before you before you jump into anything too crazy. Okay.

you jump into anything too crazy. Okay. >> Um, but then there are I'll just kind of

>> Um, but then there are I'll just kind of go through some of these and we can get

go through some of these and we can get into like an example, I think. But you

into like an example, I think. But you invest in in recurring time together,

invest in in recurring time together, going to the same coffee shop all the

going to the same coffee shop all the time, whatever it is, invest in that for

time, whatever it is, invest in that for the long term. You just laid out, you

the long term. You just laid out, you know, 50 hours to like kind of an

know, 50 hours to like kind of an acquaintance type, you know, to to like

acquaintance type, you know, to to like what was it? 80 hours. 90 hours 90 hours

what was it? 80 hours. 90 hours 90 hours to like a friend

to like a friend >> to like a friend. All right, that's a

>> to like a friend. All right, that's a long time. Okay, so patience is really

long time. Okay, so patience is really key here, too. When you're making

key here, too. When you're making friends, it's usually around positive

friends, it's usually around positive emotions and like fun things. And then

emotions and like fun things. And then the self-disclosure part we've talked

the self-disclosure part we've talked about, too. Be gradual with that.

about, too. Be gradual with that. >> Yes. Don't don't word vomit over people.

>> Yes. Don't don't word vomit over people. >> Yeah. Be gradual with that. Learn like

>> Yeah. Be gradual with that. Learn like small talk is there's actually an art to

small talk is there's actually an art to small talk. M

small talk. M >> um and uh you know I've I've ragged on

>> um and uh you know I've I've ragged on people before about talking about the

people before about talking about the weather and you know stuff like that and

weather and you know stuff like that and yeah you want to get past that but also

yeah you want to get past that but also too like get good at small talk and be

too like get good at small talk and be gradual with it right

gradual with it right >> um I think another tactic you can use

>> um I think another tactic you can use too is lean on any existing friend

too is lean on any existing friend networks that you have right now oh

networks that you have right now oh there's also some research to suggest as

there's also some research to suggest as well that um synchronized activity

well that um synchronized activity >> is uh is better at making friendships

>> is uh is better at making friendships for you. So like uh even if it's just

for you. So like uh even if it's just moving together,

moving together, >> dance class or

>> dance class or >> that that's like the

>> that that's like the >> singing.

>> singing. >> Yeah, those kind of things definitely.

>> Yeah, those kind of things definitely. But even just like going like I

But even just like going like I mentioned going on a hike or running

mentioned going on a hike or running like you're all moving together like

like you're all moving together like that kind of stuff is even for whatever

that kind of stuff is even for whatever reason it's it's it kind of um gives

reason it's it's it kind of um gives more of a a surface area too for the

more of a a surface area too for the friendship to come around as well.

friendship to come around as well. >> I guess it it technically gives you more

>> I guess it it technically gives you more Yeah. It gives you more to empathize

Yeah. It gives you more to empathize with.

with. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Right. Like because if you're just

>> Right. Like because if you're just sitting and talking, you really all you

sitting and talking, you really all you can really empathize with is what the

can really empathize with is what the person's saying. But if you're walking

person's saying. But if you're walking together or you're working out together

together or you're working out together or you're dancing together, uh now you

or you're dancing together, uh now you can empathize with the movement, the

can empathize with the movement, the practice, the art. Yeah.

practice, the art. Yeah. >> You know, I I do I do yoga and I do

>> You know, I I do I do yoga and I do specifically I do hot yoga. Yeah. And so

specifically I do hot yoga. Yeah. And so uh you go in there, it's all

uh you go in there, it's all synchronized. Everybody's doing the same

synchronized. Everybody's doing the same thing at the exact same time and you

thing at the exact same time and you have, you know, a very similar

have, you know, a very similar experience and you come out of there,

experience and you come out of there, you get into the locker room with the

you get into the locker room with the other guys, you're like, "Holy [ __ ]

other guys, you're like, "Holy [ __ ] that was hot." you know, today or oh

that was hot." you know, today or oh man, when we were doing this thing, this

man, when we were doing this thing, this and that. And it's you you kind of have

and that. And it's you you kind of have this shared experience you just went

this shared experience you just went through that you can very much relate

through that you can very much relate to. That's a window that's an that's an

to. That's a window that's an that's an opening for you to like bond and

opening for you to like bond and identify with someone. Okay. Early on,

identify with someone. Okay. Early on, >> um there's

>> um there's >> Have you made friends through hot yoga?

>> Have you made friends through hot yoga? >> I'm curious.

>> I'm curious. >> So, I wanted to bring that. Yeah, I

>> So, I wanted to bring that. Yeah, I actually wanted to bring this up. So,

actually wanted to bring this up. So, you know, when

you know, when cuz I have kind of dogged on like the

cuz I have kind of dogged on like the like go join a club and you'll make

like go join a club and you'll make friends or go to trivia night and you'll

friends or go to trivia night and you'll make friends and I'm like that doesn't

make friends and I'm like that doesn't work whatever. So, I've been going to

work whatever. So, I've been going to hot yoga for a long time now or like two

hot yoga for a long time now or like two three years I guess close to three years

three years I guess close to three years now.

now. >> And I was like, you know, I know the

>> And I was like, you know, I know the faces that are there and we say hi and

faces that are there and we say hi and have some small talk and this and that,

have some small talk and this and that, but I know I don't make any friends from

but I know I don't make any friends from it. Well, what I've noticed, too, is

it. Well, what I've noticed, too, is that honestly, if I put in just a smidge

that honestly, if I put in just a smidge more effort that I probably would. So,

more effort that I probably would. So, what I what I've noticed there's a few

what I what I've noticed there's a few people in particular who um I've I've

people in particular who um I've I've made like a strong acquaintance with,

made like a strong acquaintance with, let's say,

let's say, >> this one guy um really warm guy um

>> this one guy um really warm guy um that's there and once, you know, we got

that's there and once, you know, we got to talking and we're just at first it

to talking and we're just at first it was, "God, that was a hot one, you know,

was, "God, that was a hot one, you know, that was the really intense today or

that was the really intense today or whatever."

whatever." >> And we got to talking and we're like,

>> And we got to talking and we're like, you know, he's like, "Oh, hey, I'm

you know, he's like, "Oh, hey, I'm Derek." And I'm like, "I'm Drew." like

Derek." And I'm like, "I'm Drew." like and you know we get to talking and he's

and you know we get to talking and he's like what do you do? What do you do?

like what do you do? What do you do? He's a therapist. Oh, I have a lot of

He's a therapist. Oh, I have a lot of therapist friends and also you know like

therapist friends and also you know like I do this crazy podcast thing and work

I do this crazy podcast thing and work for this guy and he's like oh really I'm

for this guy and he's like oh really I'm trying to write a book and that kind of

trying to write a book and that kind of develops. Um he hasn't been in yoga for

develops. Um he hasn't been in yoga for a while so I haven't talked to him but

a while so I haven't talked to him but >> I I think what I missed was um the whole

>> I I think what I missed was um the whole kind of second part of this which is the

kind of second part of this which is the self-disclosure and the like taking a

self-disclosure and the like taking a little bit of risk and being a little

little bit of risk and being a little bit vulnerable with people

bit vulnerable with people >> and um the patience it requires too. I

>> and um the patience it requires too. I think there's that and I think there's a

think there's that and I think there's a consistency element.

consistency element. >> And it's funny I'm thinking about the

>> And it's funny I'm thinking about the interest thing like I do think

interest thing like I do think because I'm thinking about my

because I'm thinking about my experiences around this and particularly

experiences around this and particularly like I I was in a I joined a

like I I was in a I joined a >> CrossFit gym uh in New York for a while

>> CrossFit gym uh in New York for a while >> and part of the problem was I went all

>> and part of the problem was I went all the time

the time >> but it was different people every single

>> but it was different people every single time. So it's like

time. So it's like >> Yeah. So you have to like you have to go

>> Yeah. So you have to like you have to go you have to go so much for so long

you have to go so much for so long before you start running into the same

before you start running into the same people over and over again.

people over and over again. >> And then even once and maybe that was a

>> And then even once and maybe that was a New York thing just because there's so

New York thing just because there's so many people but

many people but >> um I definitely felt like there was a

>> um I definitely felt like there was a lack of consistency. Uh, and then it's

lack of consistency. Uh, and then it's on top of that, like I feel like it

on top of that, like I feel like it can't just be like if you go to a

can't just be like if you go to a CrossFit gym and you meet people at the

CrossFit gym and you meet people at the CrossFit gym, unless you're like

CrossFit gym, unless you're like obsessed with CrossFit and they're

obsessed with CrossFit and they're obsessed with CrossFit, it's probably

obsessed with CrossFit, it's probably not enough. Like you probably need

not enough. Like you probably need something like that, like a like a

something like that, like a like a second thing outside of the CrossFit

second thing outside of the CrossFit that you're both into and interested in.

that you're both into and interested in. I think there's an interesting

I think there's an interesting distinction here between

distinction here between >> uh interest, shared interest and shared

>> uh interest, shared interest and shared obsession.

obsession. >> Oh, yeah. because I like I have an

>> Oh, yeah. because I like I have an interest in surfing. I have an interest

interest in surfing. I have an interest in running. I

in running. I >> Same. Yeah.

>> Same. Yeah. >> Yeah. I have an interest in a lot of

>> Yeah. I have an interest in a lot of things. Um

things. Um >> I have an interest in watching football,

>> I have an interest in watching football, but I don't think I would ever become

but I don't think I would ever become friends with a guy just by watching

friends with a guy just by watching football together.

football together. >> Same thing with my yoga studio. Like I

>> Same thing with my yoga studio. Like I I'm not obsessed with yoga. I do it

I'm not obsessed with yoga. I do it because it makes me feel better and

because it makes me feel better and that's great. Like the people I've met

that's great. Like the people I've met in there that I that would potentially

in there that I that would potentially become friends of mine, like I said,

become friends of mine, like I said, like

like >> Yeah. Uh Derek, he's a he's a therapist

>> Yeah. Uh Derek, he's a he's a therapist and he's like he likes writing and he

and he's like he likes writing and he likes reading and all that and like

likes reading and all that and like that's what we connect on. It's not on

that's what we connect on. It's not on the yoga.

the yoga. >> Yeah. I think there's but there's like

>> Yeah. I think there's but there's like two or three things in my life that I am

two or three things in my life that I am kind of obsessed over and and if I meet

kind of obsessed over and and if I meet somebody who's also obsessed over that

somebody who's also obsessed over that thing

thing >> then it's almost like instant friends.

>> then it's almost like instant friends. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's that's fair too. I do that

>> Yeah. That's that's fair too. I do that with like like people if I run into

with like like people if I run into another woodworker man we're boom.

another woodworker man we're boom. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> It's like oh dude like what kind of saw

>> It's like oh dude like what kind of saw do you got with this? Oh, do you use

do you got with this? Oh, do you use this planer? Do you use this? And it's

this planer? Do you use this? And it's Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. that that I think you're right

>> Yeah. that that I think you're right that creates a the obsession level

that creates a the obsession level creates a deeper spark more quickly

creates a deeper spark more quickly anyway. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I you know

anyway. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I you know there's there's lots of little

there's there's lots of little techniques and stuff like that. I think

techniques and stuff like that. I think I'd just rather though get into like an

I'd just rather though get into like an example and like kind of walk through

example and like kind of walk through this.

this. >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> Um

>> Um >> how how would you I guess how do you

>> how how would you I guess how do you want to do this Mark? Because

want to do this Mark? Because >> I guess what I could do is I could tell

>> I guess what I could do is I could tell you what I would do like let's say I

you what I would do like let's say I moved to a new city or something like

moved to a new city or something like that and I knew no one. Yeah.

that and I knew no one. Yeah. >> And what I would do we could walk

>> And what I would do we could walk through that maybe.

through that maybe. >> Okay. Okay,

>> Okay. Okay, >> we could try it like that or we could

>> we could try it like that or we could take a hypothetical example of somebody

take a hypothetical example of somebody too if you wanted to. What do you think?

too if you wanted to. What do you think? >> Wink wink.

>> Wink wink. >> Why don't we do this? Why don't Why

>> Why don't we do this? Why don't Why don't we do the move to a new city?

don't we do the move to a new city? Okay.

Okay. >> And walk through that and discuss that.

>> And walk through that and discuss that. >> Um and then I'm happy to just be open. I

>> Um and then I'm happy to just be open. I mean, I've been very open on this

mean, I've been very open on this podcast that like

podcast that like >> um you know, social life's kind of the

>> um you know, social life's kind of the pain point in my life at the moment. Um,

pain point in my life at the moment. Um, and and I'm happy to kind of talk

and and I'm happy to kind of talk through what I think my situation is,

through what I think my situation is, like why why that's happened because

like why why that's happened because that's going to tie into a lot of other

that's going to tie into a lot of other themes around

themes around >> age, uh, phase of life, proximity,

>> age, uh, phase of life, proximity, >> um, shared interest with people,

>> um, shared interest with people, consistency, stuff like that.

consistency, stuff like that. >> Okay. Okay. Cool. All right.

>> Okay. Okay. Cool. All right. >> Well, okay. So, if I moved to a new

>> Well, okay. So, if I moved to a new city, Yeah. and I didn't know anyone. I

city, Yeah. and I didn't know anyone. I probably would, and this I think has

probably would, and this I think has changed recently for me, I probably

changed recently for me, I probably would join some of these clubs and

would join some of these clubs and groups and okay and meetups and

groups and okay and meetups and everything like that. Um, I think you're

everything like that. Um, I think you're right. There's probably the hit rate is

right. There's probably the hit rate is not going to be what you think it is

not going to be what you think it is most likely.

most likely. >> Um, but what I would change about this

>> Um, but what I would change about this is I, you know, I probably would go to a

is I, you know, I probably would go to a CrossFit gym. I probably would go into

CrossFit gym. I probably would go into yoga. Um, and I would be I would

yoga. Um, and I would be I would practice that self-disclosure, gradual

practice that self-disclosure, gradual self-disclosure a little bit.

self-disclosure a little bit. more introduce yourself first of all

more introduce yourself first of all just be like hey I'm I'm Drew

just be like hey I'm I'm Drew >> you know who are you that's it for the

>> you know who are you that's it for the first probably I don't know handful of

first probably I don't know handful of times that you go

times that you go >> um and just kind of get the lay of the

>> um and just kind of get the lay of the land you go find something though that

land you go find something though that to really matches with your personality

to really matches with your personality your values you know I know um one

your values you know I know um one person in my life in particular that I'm

person in my life in particular that I'm thinking of is a very compassionate

thinking of is a very compassionate person um and uh they would do really

person um and uh they would do really well in like an animal shelter

well in like an animal shelter volunteering situation or um food bank

volunteering situation or um food bank or something like that, right? Those I

or something like that, right? Those I think are actually really really good um

think are actually really really good um places to meet friends.

places to meet friends. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Because not only are values aligned, but

>> Because not only are values aligned, but it's usually like people who are also

it's usually like people who are also very warm and open to like you think

very warm and open to like you think about somebody who goes and volunteers

about somebody who goes and volunteers in an animal shelter or something like

in an animal shelter or something like that. They're they're going to be open

that. They're they're going to be open to to meeting new people and being uh

to to meeting new people and being uh warm to you and everything like that,

warm to you and everything like that, right? Um,

right? Um, you just can't expect that to like just

you just can't expect that to like just It's not automatic though. I think

It's not automatic though. I think that's what I thought before was that

that's what I thought before was that it's just going to be automatic. If you

it's just going to be automatic. If you just show up to these places, it's

just show up to these places, it's automatic. And it's not. You know what I

automatic. And it's not. You know what I would also do is I would probably look

would also do is I would probably look for other people in there who seem to be

for other people in there who seem to be a little uncomfortable or maybe out of

a little uncomfortable or maybe out of place or maybe looking for something

place or maybe looking for something like I don't know. I I have an eye for

like I don't know. I I have an eye for those people. I'm like, "Yeah, this

those people. I'm like, "Yeah, this person's uncomfortable.

person's uncomfortable. >> Um, let me go introduce myself and we'll

>> Um, let me go introduce myself and we'll both be a little more comfortable after

both be a little more comfortable after doing that."

doing that." Um, so I think that's kind of how to get

Um, so I think that's kind of how to get started anyway and get into your

started anyway and get into your community and just be a little more

community and just be a little more active and engaged. Um, obviously like

active and engaged. Um, obviously like finding these things online, finding

finding these things online, finding groups online, you know, you can be in

groups online, you know, you can be in proximity to people online to some

proximity to people online to some degree. There there is like a kind of

degree. There there is like a kind of psychological proximity you you have

psychological proximity you you have with online groups, but you you need to

with online groups, but you you need to take them physical

take them physical >> um is is my opinion anyway.

>> um is is my opinion anyway. >> Yeah. Um, and I think that that's a

>> Yeah. Um, and I think that that's a that's a how to really get started on

that's a how to really get started on this, but you have to be super

this, but you have to be super consistent. You know, the 50, 90, 200

consistent. You know, the 50, 90, 200 hours that you're going to put in. It's

hours that you're going to put in. It's going to take a very long

going to take a very long >> Let's talk about the nuts and bolts of

>> Let's talk about the nuts and bolts of that because like I'm with you. I want

that because like I'm with you. I want to get into this. Yeah.

to get into this. Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm with you all the way to there.

>> Yeah. I'm with you all the way to there. >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> I I go to a bunch of clubs, groups,

>> I I go to a bunch of clubs, groups, whatever. Meet a bunch of people.

whatever. Meet a bunch of people. >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> Cool. Hey, I'm Mark. Nice to meet you.

>> Cool. Hey, I'm Mark. Nice to meet you. Blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah. Now what?

Now what? Yeah,

Yeah, >> it's three weeks go by, I don't see this

>> it's three weeks go by, I don't see this person again, you know.

person again, you know. >> Oh, okay.

>> Oh, okay. >> Or or a week goes by, I don't see this

>> Or or a week goes by, I don't see this person again. And then next week it's

person again. And then next week it's like, oh, hey, how you doing? Ah, nice

like, oh, hey, how you doing? Ah, nice weather. You know, like what's the what

weather. You know, like what's the what are the nuts and like

are the nuts and like >> do you invite them to something else? Do

>> do you invite them to something else? Do you organize something outside of the

you organize something outside of the the group or the event? Like what do you

the group or the event? Like what do you follow up with them? Like what does that

follow up with them? Like what does that look like?

look like? >> Um, I usually go to yoga uh at in the

>> Um, I usually go to yoga uh at in the middle of the day. So, it's right before

middle of the day. So, it's right before I eat. And so, one of the things I've

I eat. And so, one of the things I've thought about was um a couple of the

thought about was um a couple of the guys that I've become friendly with

guys that I've become friendly with there and be like, "Hey, you want to go

there and be like, "Hey, you want to go grab uh some there's a lunch bot right

grab uh some there's a lunch bot right next to it that I go to all the time.

next to it that I go to all the time. I'm like, "Hey, come grab a lunch with

I'm like, "Hey, come grab a lunch with me, you know, if you want."

me, you know, if you want." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Or, "I'm heading over here if you want

>> Or, "I'm heading over here if you want to grab lunch."

to grab lunch." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Do it that way. Casual. Keep it casual.

>> Do it that way. Casual. Keep it casual. Keep it very casual at first,

Keep it very casual at first, especially.

especially. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um and I at some point you do have to

>> Um and I at some point you do have to cross that threshold though. And you do

cross that threshold though. And you do have to say, "Hey, we need to meet

have to say, "Hey, we need to meet somewhere besides here."

somewhere besides here." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> We need to do something besides this

>> We need to do something besides this thing here. Yes.

thing here. Yes. >> Uh that's what's going to take you up to

>> Uh that's what's going to take you up to the next level, I think, with someone.

the next level, I think, with someone. >> And I feel like that's the moment where

>> And I feel like that's the moment where you need to find the second thing. Like

you need to find the second thing. Like it can't just be like, "Oh, we do yoga."

it can't just be like, "Oh, we do yoga." Like, it needs to be like, "We do yoga

Like, it needs to be like, "We do yoga >> and we're both psychology nerds." Or,

>> and we're both psychology nerds." Or, "We do yoga and we're both really into

"We do yoga and we're both really into long-distance running. Hey, we should

long-distance running. Hey, we should run together." Or

run together." Or >> or we do yoga and we're both really into

>> or we do yoga and we're both really into tennis or whatever, you know? So, so

tennis or whatever, you know? So, so generally speaking, like I meet people

generally speaking, like I meet people through business networks because my

through business networks because my obsession is [ __ ] business. Yeah.

obsession is [ __ ] business. Yeah. >> And I I just find that that's that's

>> And I I just find that that's that's generally the people I gel with the most

generally the people I gel with the most quickly,

quickly, >> but like the people I kind of stick with

>> but like the people I kind of stick with are the people who share an interest

are the people who share an interest outside of business with me. So, it's

outside of business with me. So, it's like I start with the business stuff.

like I start with the business stuff. Like honestly,

Like honestly, if I if I could do LA again, I would

if I if I could do LA again, I would come and I would just I would just join

come and I would just I would just join business groups. I would have skipped

business groups. I would have skipped the CrossFit gym. I would have skipped

the CrossFit gym. I would have skipped the tennis lessons. I would have skipped

the tennis lessons. I would have skipped like the surf classes. I would I would

like the surf classes. I would I would have skipped all that stuff because I'm

have skipped all that stuff because I'm not obsessed with it. And I didn't stick

not obsessed with it. And I didn't stick with it. Like I went five times and then

with it. Like I went five times and then I'm like I'm bit I'm bored. I'm busy.

I'm like I'm bit I'm bored. I'm busy. And uh

And uh >> but the business stuff because I'm

>> but the business stuff because I'm obsessed with it. I would go all the

obsessed with it. I would go all the time and I would see everybody all the

time and I would see everybody all the time and then from there I'd be like,

time and then from there I'd be like, "Okay, who in this group likes to go

"Okay, who in this group likes to go surfing? Who in this group, you know,

surfing? Who in this group, you know, wants to go to a CrossFit gym? who in

wants to go to a CrossFit gym? who in this group wants to, you know, go see a

this group wants to, you know, go see a soccer game or whatever. Uh, and then

soccer game or whatever. Uh, and then like take it from there, I guess.

like take it from there, I guess. >> I'm kind of

>> I'm kind of >> You're still skeptical, it sounds.

>> You're still skeptical, it sounds. >> Well, I'm kind of like figuring this out

>> Well, I'm kind of like figuring this out on the fly.

on the fly. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um,

>> Um, >> cuz listening to you talk, I'm like I'm

>> cuz listening to you talk, I'm like I'm trying to piece it together with my own

trying to piece it together with my own experience. And like the obsession thing

experience. And like the obsession thing I do think is important. It's like start

I do think is important. It's like start with the thing that you love the most

with the thing that you love the most and then maybe move on there. Like I'll

and then maybe move on there. Like I'll give you an example. I I I

give you an example. I I I made some surf buddy friends and would

made some surf buddy friends and would go sit sit on the water with them and

go sit sit on the water with them and talk to them for hours. Um

talk to them for hours. Um and had nothing in common like you know

and had nothing in common like you know just like completely different lives.

just like completely different lives. You know they they work a 9 to5 at some

You know they they work a 9 to5 at some insurance company or whatever and

insurance company or whatever and >> um

>> um it's like we kind of run out of things

it's like we kind of run out of things to talk about after a certain point.

to talk about after a certain point. Whereas it's like if I start with the

Whereas it's like if I start with the business guy, I know I'm never going to

business guy, I know I'm never going to run out of things to talk about.

run out of things to talk about. >> Okay. Okay.

>> Okay. Okay. >> And so then I can invite him surfing.

>> And so then I can invite him surfing. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I see what you're saying. H Okay.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. H Okay. Because I think I I Well, I don't know

Because I think I I Well, I don't know if I'm super obsessed with any one

if I'm super obsessed with any one thing. I'm I'm like I've told you

thing. I'm I'm like I've told you before, I'm so fascinated and interested

before, I'm so fascinated and interested in so many different things that I can

in so many different things that I can usually find something to connect with

usually find something to connect with just about anybody on.

just about anybody on. >> Yeah. like you know I grew up in a small

>> Yeah. like you know I grew up in a small farming uh community and I can talk to

farming uh community and I can talk to people about farming or I can talk to

people about farming or I can talk to them about like you know running a

them about like you know running a regression analysis over here and so

regression analysis over here and so yeah I get that

yeah I get that >> maybe that's a personal thing to me I

>> maybe that's a personal thing to me I mean

mean >> it could be no it could be

>> it could be no it could be >> yeah having that mindset of like you are

>> yeah having that mindset of like you are a likable person but I also think it's

a likable person but I also think it's important to have a mindset of of people

important to have a mindset of of people are likable like it's it's

are likable like it's it's >> like not going into a new job and being

>> like not going into a new job and being like ah these these people are [ __ ]

like ah these these people are [ __ ] losers or you

losers or you or I don't like these type of types of

or I don't like these type of types of people.

people. >> That's okay. That right there, that's a

>> That's okay. That right there, that's a huge one. I think that people um so some

huge one. I think that people um so some of these people I've already talked

of these people I've already talked about like in my yoga class and stuff

about like in my yoga class and stuff like that. If like you're pro to me at

like that. If like you're pro to me at first I was just like I probably

first I was just like I probably wouldn't like this person and you like

wouldn't like this person and you like >> they're actually pretty they're nice

>> they're actually pretty they're nice open people.

open people. >> People surprise you

>> People surprise you >> who like actually are interested in you.

>> who like actually are interested in you. That's another thing. Be interested in

That's another thing. Be interested in other people.

other people. >> Show genuine interest in someone else.

>> Show genuine interest in someone else. They'll show interest in you. you'll be

They'll show interest in you. you'll be very surprised. So, don't like I think

very surprised. So, don't like I think there are there are a lot of people who

there are there are a lot of people who are like I don't want to associate with

are like I don't want to associate with this type of person or whatever it is.

this type of person or whatever it is. I've I've dropped a lot of that.

I've I've dropped a lot of that. >> I I don't Yeah, I don't know about you,

>> I I don't Yeah, I don't know about you, but like I am consistently surprised at

but like I am consistently surprised at who I become friends with and who I stay

who I become friends with and who I stay friends with. Like, if you at any period

friends with. Like, if you at any period of my life, if you would ask me to go

of my life, if you would ask me to go through all my friends and ask who I'd

through all my friends and ask who I'd still be friends with in five or 10

still be friends with in five or 10 years,

years, >> I would have been wrong about a lot of

>> I would have been wrong about a lot of them. And I think it's important to uh

them. And I think it's important to uh yeah to just not make predictions. Don't

yeah to just not make predictions. Don't make assumptions about people. Don't

make assumptions about people. Don't assume. Like I've had I've had I've met

assume. Like I've had I've had I've met I've met friends that annoyed the [ __ ]

I've met friends that annoyed the [ __ ] out of me. Like the first year or two I

out of me. Like the first year or two I I knew them. I was like

I knew them. I was like >> my god this [ __ ] guy. Like what is

>> my god this [ __ ] guy. Like what is his problem? And then it's 10 years

his problem? And then it's 10 years later I'm like good friends with him,

later I'm like good friends with him, you know? So it just stuff like that

you know? So it just stuff like that happens. You you never know.

happens. You you never know. >> When you offered me the job and I left

>> When you offered me the job and I left grad school, you know, you have this

grad school, you know, you have this built-in network in grad school, right?

built-in network in grad school, right? basically or any any type of situation

basically or any any type of situation like that. And when I was leaving, I

like that. And when I was leaving, I went to my cohort and you know, I was

went to my cohort and you know, I was like, "Ah, guys, I'm leaving or

like, "Ah, guys, I'm leaving or whatever." And there's this one woman

whatever." And there's this one woman and um she was Italian, too. And she

and um she was Italian, too. And she goes, "No, Drew, I just started to like

goes, "No, Drew, I just started to like you." And this was after a whole year.

you." And this was after a whole year. And I was like, "What the hell?"

>> So, again, it does take some time sometimes. Sometimes personalities that

sometimes. Sometimes personalities that you think aren't going to gel with you

you think aren't going to gel with you end up geling with you.

end up geling with you. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Um but I mean, okay, but there is that.

>> Um but I mean, okay, but there is that. Okay. There's the proximity, the

Okay. There's the proximity, the repeated exposure, the the gradual

repeated exposure, the the gradual self-disclosure.

self-disclosure. Think of it in in those terms when

Think of it in in those terms when you're doing this. The the one thing I

you're doing this. The the one thing I think maybe the reason why I'm dancing

think maybe the reason why I'm dancing around a lot of this is because I've

around a lot of this is because I've always been able to I either have like a

always been able to I either have like a built-in network where if I've ever

built-in network where if I've ever moved or anything like that, like you

moved or anything like that, like you know, when I I moved from the small town

know, when I I moved from the small town that I grew up in, went to college, you

that I grew up in, went to college, you have your your college network, right?

have your your college network, right? You're you see the same people in the

You're you see the same people in the classes or the dorm or whatever it is.

classes or the dorm or whatever it is. is the mirror exposure effect that we

is the mirror exposure effect that we were talking about when I went to

were talking about when I went to graduate school, left again for graduate

graduate school, left again for graduate school. There's you have a built-in

school. There's you have a built-in social network there. I moved to Ohio

social network there. I moved to Ohio with a girlfriend. Um, and it ended up

with a girlfriend. Um, and it ended up we all the like spouses and boyfriends

we all the like spouses and boyfriends ended up hanging out with each other and

ended up hanging out with each other and it actually ended up working out. Like

it actually ended up working out. Like I've always kind of had that.

I've always kind of had that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So that's why I'm saying like leverage

>> So that's why I'm saying like leverage anything you have like that. Any sort of

anything you have like that. Any sort of network you have um in place, maybe a

network you have um in place, maybe a friend of a friend. You know, one time I

friend of a friend. You know, one time I was traveling through Mexico. I went to

was traveling through Mexico. I went to Wajaka and I told you, "Hey, I'm going

Wajaka and I told you, "Hey, I'm going to Waka." And you're like, "I know

to Waka." And you're like, "I know somebody in Waka right now. Let me hook

somebody in Waka right now. Let me hook you up with and you did, you know, like

you up with and you did, you know, like that was just serendipitous stuff like

that was just serendipitous stuff like that that happens.

that that happens. >> Yeah, you definitely want to rely on

>> Yeah, you definitely want to rely on networks. I think the thing that like

networks. I think the thing that like really makes friendships and this is

really makes friendships and this is related to the interest thing, but I

related to the interest thing, but I think it's actually more important is

think it's actually more important is like there needs to be stakes. Like if

like there needs to be stakes. Like if you just show up to a a yoga class or

you just show up to a a yoga class or something and you're not into yoga, you

something and you're not into yoga, you don't really know what you're doing and

don't really know what you're doing and you just kind of sit there and chitchat

you just kind of sit there and chitchat with people.

with people. >> No, no, no. It's very active.

>> No, no, no. It's very active. >> Yeah. Nothing's going to happen. Like I

>> Yeah. Nothing's going to happen. Like I and I think maybe this is kind of where

and I think maybe this is kind of where the obsession thing is is coming from is

the obsession thing is is coming from is that like I find that it it you have to

that like I find that it it you have to you have to really care about the thing

you have to really care about the thing you're doing and then you find other

you're doing and then you find other people who really care about it too. And

people who really care about it too. And >> that caring can also be network-based,

>> that caring can also be network-based, right? So it's like I have a friend that

right? So it's like I have a friend that I really care about and I really care

I really care about and I really care about you as a friend and so I'm going

about you as a friend and so I'm going to introduce you to and like there's

to introduce you to and like there's stakes now to that relationship because

stakes now to that relationship because you're both friends with me. So like I I

you're both friends with me. So like I I think it's the and I think this is

think it's the and I think this is actually going to be a really important

actually going to be a really important component of what we're going to talk

component of what we're going to talk about in the next section about like why

about in the next section about like why it seems so hard to make friends these

it seems so hard to make friends these days. And I think a lot of it is that

days. And I think a lot of it is that the stakes

the stakes >> society is is quickly being optimized to

>> society is is quickly being optimized to be stakes free.

be stakes free. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> That you can come and go anywhere as you

>> That you can come and go anywhere as you please. That there's no downside to

please. That there's no downside to anything. There's no friction to

anything. There's no friction to anything. And I think it's it's it's

anything. And I think it's it's it's actually the stakes that make it

actually the stakes that make it meaningful and that make the the

meaningful and that make the the relationships there meaningful and that

relationships there meaningful and that become the glue of the friendship,

become the glue of the friendship, >> which is why you can't uh engineer an

>> which is why you can't uh engineer an app that's frictionless.

app that's frictionless. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> To that's why

>> To that's why >> Yeah. And it's funny because I remember

>> Yeah. And it's funny because I remember I talked to that to that guy and and I I

I talked to that to that guy and and I I tried to kind of explain that and he's

tried to kind of explain that and he's like, "No, no, no. You don't understand.

like, "No, no, no. You don't understand. So the peak experiences were going to

So the peak experiences were going to have friction built in. They're going to

have friction built in. They're going to be challenges and they have to

be challenges and they have to accomplish them." And I was like, "Okay,

accomplish them." And I was like, "Okay, great. Yeah, that's not gonna work.

great. Yeah, that's not gonna work. >> Wrong order.

>> Wrong order. >> This is, you know, we haven't talked

>> This is, you know, we haven't talked about church and religion yet.

about church and religion yet. >> Okay. Yeah, I was just get into that,

>> Okay. Yeah, I was just get into that, too. Yeah.

too. Yeah. >> But I think church, school, and

>> But I think church, school, and business, like if if you look at the

business, like if if you look at the data on where most people

data on where most people >> make friends, it's those three things.

>> make friends, it's those three things. >> Church, school, business.

>> Church, school, business. >> And if you look at all three of those

>> And if you look at all three of those things,

things, >> massive stakes.

>> massive stakes. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Huge stakes involved.

>> Huge stakes involved. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And things matter. And And things

>> And things matter. And And things matter. and you're going through it with

matter. and you're going through it with some somebody else that it matters for,

some somebody else that it matters for, right? And I think that is that's at the

right? And I think that is that's at the root of it. And I guess and again to to

root of it. And I guess and again to to kind of return to my obsession point,

kind of return to my obsession point, maybe it's not obsession, but it's like

maybe it's not obsession, but it's like it needs to matter to you. Like you need

it needs to matter to you. Like you need to actually really care about it. Like

to actually really care about it. Like looking back, I think part of the

looking back, I think part of the problem is I didn't really care about

problem is I didn't really care about CrossFit.

CrossFit. >> And I look and I look at the people at

>> And I look and I look at the people at that gym who were friends with each

that gym who were friends with each other and they that was that was their

other and they that was that was their [ __ ] life. That was it was their

[ __ ] life. That was it was their identity. It's what they It's the thing

identity. It's what they It's the thing they looked forward to every day. You

they looked forward to every day. You know, for me, I was just like, I don't

know, for me, I was just like, I don't want to be fat, dude.

want to be fat, dude. >> Those are those are exactly the people

>> Those are those are exactly the people at my CrossFit gym that I don't connect

at my CrossFit gym that I don't connect with.

with. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> they are. And it's that's okay. Yeah.

>> they are. And it's that's okay. Yeah. >> You know, they they connect with the

>> You know, they they connect with the coaches really well. They connect with

coaches really well. They connect with each other really well. They all come

each other really well. They all come over and they're drinking their protein

over and they're drinking their protein shakes after. They're like, "So, what'

shakes after. They're like, "So, what' you think of those pull-ups, you know,

you think of those pull-ups, you know, and this and that." And I'm over here

and this and that." And I'm over here with the other like nerds and stuff who

with the other like nerds and stuff who are obviously just there to like, "Hey,

are obviously just there to like, "Hey, I need to get off my ass cuz I sit in

I need to get off my ass cuz I sit in front of a computer too much."

front of a computer too much." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> 100%. Yeah. Um, back to the church thing

>> 100%. Yeah. Um, back to the church thing though, just for the record, Mark and I

though, just for the record, Mark and I are not [ __ ] on religion ever. Okay,

are not [ __ ] on religion ever. Okay, we don't like

we don't like >> Are people are people getting mad?

>> Are people are people getting mad? >> We've gotten some comments and like

>> We've gotten some comments and like whenever we've brought up our religion

whenever we've brought up our religion in these the few episodes that we've

in these the few episodes that we've done in the podcast so far, people are

done in the podcast so far, people are like, "You're [ __ ] non-religious." It's

like, "You're [ __ ] non-religious." It's like, I don't feel like we're [ __ ]

like, I don't feel like we're [ __ ] >> Kind of the opposite, actually.

>> Kind of the opposite, actually. >> Yeah. Even though we're not religious,

>> Yeah. Even though we're not religious, like,

like, >> dude, I feel like I'm the most

>> dude, I feel like I'm the most pro-religious atheist in the world.

pro-religious atheist in the world. Like, I don't know what you people are

Like, I don't know what you people are thinking.

thinking. >> I And I feel very similar, too. Um, and

>> I And I feel very similar, too. Um, and I do, both you and I, I think we look

I do, both you and I, I think we look back like on our parents' generation,

back like on our parents' generation, especially my grandparents generation.

especially my grandparents generation. The church was so central to their

The church was so central to their social lives and such a such a um such a

social lives and such a such a um such a source of like uh resilience for them,

source of like uh resilience for them, too.

too. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And not only just friendships and

>> And not only just friendships and everything like that, but you know,

everything like that, but you know, somebody dies in the church community,

somebody dies in the church community, everybody

everybody >> Oh, yeah.

>> Oh, yeah. >> rallies around. Yeah. You get sick,

>> rallies around. Yeah. You get sick, everybody rallies around. My my when my

everybody rallies around. My my when my mom had a pre-major surgery, this is

mom had a pre-major surgery, this is almost 20 years ago now. Um she was had

almost 20 years ago now. Um she was had to go three and a half, four hours away

to go three and a half, four hours away for the surgery and the pastor showed

for the surgery and the pastor showed up. Yeah.

up. Yeah. >> Like she was there,

>> Like she was there, >> you know, like insane, right?

>> you know, like insane, right? >> Um so these types of things now

>> Um so these types of things now obviously, you know, if you're not

obviously, you know, if you're not religious, I don't know. There's

religious, I don't know. There's probably some ethical uh things around

probably some ethical uh things around that. If you're not religious and you go

that. If you're not religious and you go to church and make friends, I don't

to church and make friends, I don't know. I They'll be welcoming. I can tell

know. I They'll be welcoming. I can tell you that.

you that. >> I don't think it will work. I mean they

>> I don't think it will work. I mean they they will be welcoming but it I don't

they will be welcoming but it I don't think it will work and I think because

think it will work and I think because there won't be stakes.

there won't be stakes. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> There won't be stakes.

>> There won't be stakes. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> You're there for the friendships. You're

>> You're there for the friendships. You're there it's

there it's >> ah

>> ah >> it's transactional.

>> it's transactional. >> Ah okay. That's I think what we're

>> Ah okay. That's I think what we're getting at.

getting at. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Is that you can't make this you cannot

>> Is that you can't make this you cannot be transactional about your friendships

be transactional about your friendships in general. Yes.

in general. Yes. >> And so stop treating them like that too.

>> And so stop treating them like that too. And if you're only in the yoga class or

And if you're only in the yoga class or the CrossFit class to make to meet

the CrossFit class to make to meet people and make friends, then it's like

people and make friends, then it's like that kind of undermines it because it's

that kind of undermines it because it's it's it's not actually an interest. It's

it's it's not actually an interest. It's not actually a shared interest. It's

not actually a shared interest. It's just a thing you're doing to talk to a

just a thing you're doing to talk to a stranger. So, let's summarize really

stranger. So, let's summarize really quick and then I actually want to hold

quick and then I actually want to hold my personal LA example until we finish

my personal LA example until we finish off this section because there's a

off this section because there's a couple more things that I think we

couple more things that I think we should go through

should go through >> that will inform kind of my story. Cool.

>> that will inform kind of my story. Cool. Um, so in summary, moving to a new city,

Um, so in summary, moving to a new city, first thing that matters is stakes. So

first thing that matters is stakes. So whether that's an interest, a genuine

whether that's an interest, a genuine interest, something you actually care

interest, something you actually care about, not just like, well, I always

about, not just like, well, I always wondered what playing tennis would be

wondered what playing tennis would be like. Like it's like, no, no, you you

like. Like it's like, no, no, you you love doing this thing, you are super

love doing this thing, you are super interested in in this this endeavor,

interested in in this this endeavor, pursue that. Yeah.

pursue that. Yeah. >> And then find people on that same path.

>> And then find people on that same path. And then also related to stakes is like

And then also related to stakes is like tap your networks, tap the people who

tap your networks, tap the people who are associated with, you know, whether

are associated with, you know, whether it's a new job, uh your partner, family,

it's a new job, uh your partner, family, friends of family, all that stuff. Like

friends of family, all that stuff. Like tap into into those networks. Um because

tap into into those networks. Um because I think what what drives what's going to

I think what what drives what's going to drive all these relationships is that

drive all these relationships is that there's there's stakes attached to them.

there's there's stakes attached to them. That it's not just like a well, I might

That it's not just like a well, I might as well meet this person for coffee cuz

as well meet this person for coffee cuz I have nothing else to do. Step number

I have nothing else to do. Step number two, be proactive. Good attitude,

two, be proactive. Good attitude, proactivity, introduce yourself, be

proactivity, introduce yourself, be friendly, be patient. I would say, you

friendly, be patient. I would say, you know, give it time. If you are in

know, give it time. If you are in >> more time than you think you need,

>> more time than you think you need, >> more time than you think you need. If

>> more time than you think you need. If you're in an environment where you're

you're in an environment where you're you see people over and over again, like

you see people over and over again, like give that time. I I I can tell you, you

give that time. I I I can tell you, you know, one of the differences, the the

know, one of the differences, the the jarring differences between New York and

jarring differences between New York and LA is that in New York, because it's

LA is that in New York, because it's there's so much going on all the time,

there's so much going on all the time, you do get that frequency of contact

you do get that frequency of contact kind of naturally just because you just

kind of naturally just because you just you're constantly invited to stuff.

you're constantly invited to stuff. Whereas in LA, that that frequency and

Whereas in LA, that that frequency and that repetition takes gets dragged out

that repetition takes gets dragged out over a much longer period of time.

over a much longer period of time. >> And I think that [ __ ] with my wife and

>> And I think that [ __ ] with my wife and I for a while. like we were frustrated

I for a while. like we were frustrated of like, wow, we've been here 2 years

of like, wow, we've been here 2 years and uh we've only seen this person like

and uh we've only seen this person like five times or six times and it still

five times or six times and it still feels like we're just acquaintances and

feels like we're just acquaintances and and whatnot. Like I I would say the

and whatnot. Like I I would say the friendships I do have here, it took

friendships I do have here, it took significantly longer than other places

significantly longer than other places I've lived um for those friendships to

I've lived um for those friendships to kind of formulate and cement themselves.

kind of formulate and cement themselves. So patience wait for the consistency and

So patience wait for the consistency and then when you find the people who share

then when you find the people who share the stakes that you have find that

the stakes that you have find that second or that outside interest um that

second or that outside interest um that second commonality. So, you meet

second commonality. So, you meet somebody at church, turns out they also

somebody at church, turns out they also love playing tennis. Or you meet

love playing tennis. Or you meet somebody at tennis, turns out they also

somebody at tennis, turns out they also uh are an accountant, you're an

uh are an accountant, you're an accountant, you know, like it it's stuff

accountant, you know, like it it's stuff like that. I I it feels like in my

like that. I I it feels like in my experience at least personally, it's

experience at least personally, it's like it's almost never one thing you

like it's almost never one thing you have in common. It there needs to be

have in common. It there needs to be something else too that you can do

something else too that you can do together or talk about or, you know, you

together or talk about or, you know, you can't just sit there and talk about

can't just sit there and talk about tennis

tennis all day every day,

all day every day, >> right? Yeah.

>> right? Yeah. >> Every time you see him. Yeah.

>> Every time you see him. Yeah. >> Otherwise, it's just a friend of

>> Otherwise, it's just a friend of utility.

utility. >> No, absolutely. Yeah.

>> No, absolutely. Yeah. >> So, let's start with phases of life of

>> So, let's start with phases of life of like age-based friendships like how

like age-based friendships like how friendships look throughout each stage

friendships look throughout each stage of life, how they change from one stage

of life, how they change from one stage to to the next and uh why why these

to to the next and uh why why these things are important.

things are important. >> Yeah, sure. So, you know, starting

>> Yeah, sure. So, you know, starting really early on, right? um when you're a

really early on, right? um when you're a kid from let's just say zero to 12 years

kid from let's just say zero to 12 years old from when you're born to when you're

old from when you're born to when you're about 12

about 12 >> friendships are very much like activity

>> friendships are very much like activity based their playbased they're feeling

based their playbased they're feeling good based there I I mean proximity is

good based there I I mean proximity is really all that matters there right if

really all that matters there right if you're around somebody you're probably

you're around somebody you're probably going to be friends with them just by

going to be friends with them just by being around them a whole bunch and you

being around them a whole bunch and you you play a lot and you get into trouble

you play a lot and you get into trouble a lot all that kind of stuff your

a lot all that kind of stuff your attachment kind of system forms in this

attachment kind of system forms in this during this phase though too right so

during this phase though too right so you know we've talked about attachment

you know we've talked about attachment before but just real quick if you're uh

before but just real quick if you're uh secure attachment, you're kind of okay

secure attachment, you're kind of okay with uh relationships and their ups and

with uh relationships and their ups and downs and you can manage all of that. If

downs and you can manage all of that. If you're anxious, you're more like kind of

you're anxious, you're more like kind of want to glom on to somebody. You're

want to glom on to somebody. You're avoidant, you kind of want to keep

avoidant, you kind of want to keep everybody at arms distance, right? Or

everybody at arms distance, right? Or somewhere in between. Then some

somewhere in between. Then some combination of those two. That also

combination of those two. That also bleeds into your friendships as well.

bleeds into your friendships as well. So, you know, if you're anxious and you

So, you know, if you're anxious and you have a friend and you you get possessive

have a friend and you you get possessive of that friend or if you're avoidant,

of that friend or if you're avoidant, you don't really you're like, "Ah, this

you don't really you're like, "Ah, this is a friend sometimes and I whatever."

is a friend sometimes and I whatever." secure people seem to have better uh

secure people seem to have better uh better luck with that. By about the ages

better luck with that. By about the ages five to seven, you you get your first

five to seven, you you get your first best friend,

best friend, >> right? You remember your first best

>> right? You remember your first best friend, Mark?

friend, Mark? >> I do actually. Yeah, me too. Me too. And

>> I do actually. Yeah, me too. Me too. And actually, uh we stayed best friends for

actually, uh we stayed best friends for a long time actually. Yeah, it was it

a long time actually. Yeah, it was it was kind of cool and and probably not

was kind of cool and and probably not anymore. We life has changed. We don't

anymore. We life has changed. We don't live together anymore, which you know,

live together anymore, which you know, the proximity thing and all that. Um but

the proximity thing and all that. Um but uh kind of getting into those double

uh kind of getting into those double digit years now you know you're 8 n 10

digit years now you know you're 8 n 10 11 12 and there peer groups kind of

11 12 and there peer groups kind of start to form right and you start to a

start to form right and you start to a little bit at least see your place in

little bit at least see your place in the pecking order sometimes if there is

the pecking order sometimes if there is a hierarchy that forms you kind of see

a hierarchy that forms you kind of see where you fit in how much do people you

where you fit in how much do people you start to get a sense of how much people

start to get a sense of how much people like you

like you >> um versus uh like am I a likable person

>> um versus uh like am I a likable person you start to develop those beliefs then

you start to develop those beliefs then okay and that affects you throughout

okay and that affects you throughout your life as as we'll see a little bit

your life as as we'll see a little bit too Okay, at this point is friendship is

too Okay, at this point is friendship is really less about kind of the deep

really less about kind of the deep emotional sharing. You know, it's not

emotional sharing. You know, it's not that it's not that uh friendship of

that it's not that uh friendship of virtue at this point yet. It's more

virtue at this point yet. It's more about just uh presence and proximity

about just uh presence and proximity like I talked about. And

like I talked about. And >> um what you're really learning in these

>> um what you're really learning in these though is like how to share, how to

though is like how to share, how to cooperate, how to empathize, how to

cooperate, how to empathize, how to belong in a group. Okay, a lot of that

belong in a group. Okay, a lot of that foundational stuff is set there, but

foundational stuff is set there, but these really aren't those virtuous

these really aren't those virtuous friendships. They can develop into that

friendships. They can develop into that later, but you're probably not you don't

later, but you're probably not you don't have the cognitive machinery yet to

have the cognitive machinery yet to really develop those deeper level ones

really develop those deeper level ones that kind of some of more more of that

that kind of some of more more of that deepens as you get into adolescence.

deepens as you get into adolescence. Okay, you go through puberty. It's a

Okay, you go through puberty. It's a very intense time, right? Um you uh

very intense time, right? Um you uh friends become more central to your

friends become more central to your emotional life at this point. You start

emotional life at this point. You start kind of pushing your parents away and

kind of pushing your parents away and your peer group becomes a lot more

your peer group becomes a lot more influential on your identity, on your

influential on your identity, on your emotional well-being, your mental health

emotional well-being, your mental health at this point too. really like I said a

at this point too. really like I said a big part of your identity is formed

big part of your identity is formed during these these phases too. peer

during these these phases too. peer influence obviously this is peer

influence obviously this is peer pressure really comes in right now okay

pressure really comes in right now okay >> um risky behaviors you take you take

>> um risky behaviors you take you take risks with your friends and stuff like

risks with your friends and stuff like that and that's there's going to be

that and that's there's going to be really strong bonding periods too right

really strong bonding periods too right which is probably one of the reasons you

which is probably one of the reasons you know kids

know kids >> do stupid [ __ ]

>> do stupid [ __ ] >> do stupid [ __ ]

>> do stupid [ __ ] >> peak experiences feel closer to each

>> peak experiences feel closer to each other identify with each other yeah

other identify with each other yeah exactly during this point and which is

exactly during this point and which is why and and since you're processing

why and and since you're processing emotions so intensely at this period I

emotions so intensely at this period I think that's why we probably start

think that's why we probably start overindexing on it because we remember

overindexing on it because we remember those really intense peak experiences

those really intense peak experiences like, oh, that was like really really

like, oh, that was like really really >> uh formative for me or really like a

>> uh formative for me or really like a core part of who I was at that point.

core part of who I was at that point. And so we kind of tend to overvalue them

And so we kind of tend to overvalue them at that point. This is also too where

at that point. This is also too where like uh romantic and sexual desires can

like uh romantic and sexual desires can come in and start clouding everything,

come in and start clouding everything, right? Remember what life was like

right? Remember what life was like before you had to worry about sex? God,

before you had to worry about sex? God, it was just so easy.

it was just so easy. >> So easy, right? It was so great. And you

>> So easy, right? It was so great. And you could just like be with your friends,

could just like be with your friends, right?

right? >> It was awesome. But then you start

>> It was awesome. But then you start throwing in like, you know, your crushes

throwing in like, you know, your crushes and everything that happened maybe in

and everything that happened maybe in middle school.

middle school. >> Uh, and those complicate your

>> Uh, and those complicate your friendships or, you know, I would there

friendships or, you know, I would there was definitely times when I was in

was definitely times when I was in middle school, too, like me and a friend

middle school, too, like me and a friend be fighting over like who's going to

be fighting over like who's going to >> who's who's going to be who's who's

>> who's who's going to be who's who's going to be her boyfriend, right? Like,

going to be her boyfriend, right? Like, no, I do. I do. And that complicates

no, I do. I do. And that complicates things.

things. >> I lost I lost a friend in high school

>> I lost I lost a friend in high school over a girl. Yeah.

over a girl. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are intense identity uh shaping

There are intense identity uh shaping periods of your life. that adolescence

periods of your life. that adolescence period is um and like I said, it's kind

period is um and like I said, it's kind when you're pushing your family out,

when you're pushing your family out, it's it's kind of the first time you're

it's it's kind of the first time you're seen you you feel yourself more seen in

seen you you feel yourself more seen in like a larger group or even society at

like a larger group or even society at this point, right?

this point, right? >> Um because you're starting to form your

>> Um because you're starting to form your own identity because you're starting to

own identity because you're starting to get that independence that you have,

get that independence that you have, >> you start to see your yourself in

>> you start to see your yourself in relation to other people that aren't

relation to other people that aren't your family at that point, which becomes

your family at that point, which becomes very very important for the next phase.

very very important for the next phase. um young adulthood. Yeah, you you get

um young adulthood. Yeah, you you get into basically you're out of high

into basically you're out of high school, you're into college, maybe in

school, you're into college, maybe in your 20s at this point, too. This is

your 20s at this point, too. This is where you start to form more capacity

where you start to form more capacity for deeper friendships, though. Okay. Um

for deeper friendships, though. Okay. Um again, you're you're you're cutting

again, you're you're you're cutting yourself off more and more from your

yourself off more and more from your family usually at this point and

family usually at this point and establishing more and more independence

establishing more and more independence and you're leaning more on the social

and you're leaning more on the social relationships around you, not just for,

relationships around you, not just for, you know, kind of emotional support, but

you know, kind of emotional support, but even like to some extent survival, you

even like to some extent survival, you know what I mean? like they become more

know what I mean? like they become more important to who uh not just who you are

important to who uh not just who you are but like whether or not you're going to

but like whether or not you're going to get along in life. That's this is that

get along in life. That's this is that period where friendships really take up

period where friendships really take up a huge major role.

a huge major role. >> There's also a lot of transitions during

>> There's also a lot of transitions during this phase though too. And I know for me

this phase though too. And I know for me anyway, I probably went through like two

anyway, I probably went through like two or three friend groups I would say in my

or three friend groups I would say in my 20s. Yeah.

20s. Yeah. >> And those were pretty jarring, pretty

>> And those were pretty jarring, pretty >> traumatic events for me.

>> traumatic events for me. >> I think one thing that changes from

>> I think one thing that changes from these periods Yeah. Like you said, when

these periods Yeah. Like you said, when you're a kid, it's all it's just about

you're a kid, it's all it's just about fun and convenience.

fun and convenience. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> When you're an adolescent, there's this

>> When you're an adolescent, there's this identity formation that's happening. And

identity formation that's happening. And and I think what's interesting about

and I think what's interesting about this period is that

this period is that >> you're still

>> you're still >> there's a lot of status games going on.

>> there's a lot of status games going on. Yes. Like a big part of being an

Yes. Like a big part of being an adolescent is like trying to figure out

adolescent is like trying to figure out where you are in the pecking order,

where you are in the pecking order, >> who's cool, who's not cool, are you

>> who's cool, who's not cool, are you likable? And and but the the funny thing

likable? And and but the the funny thing is that you don't realize at that age is

is that you don't realize at that age is that you're judging status on very

that you're judging status on very superficial

superficial >> yes

>> yes >> silly traits, you know, it's like who's

>> silly traits, you know, it's like who's has the prettiest hair and who is the

has the prettiest hair and who is the best football player and you know,

best football player and you know, whatever. Uh who has the highest test

whatever. Uh who has the highest test score. It's it's stuff that doesn't

score. It's it's stuff that doesn't really matter in the long run,

really matter in the long run, >> but you're kind of obsessive over it and

>> but you're kind of obsessive over it and there's a lot of insecurity around it.

there's a lot of insecurity around it. And I think that's why

And I think that's why a lot a very very very large percentage

a lot a very very very large percentage of adolescence friendships are are toxic

of adolescence friendships are are toxic to some extent which we'll talk about in

to some extent which we'll talk about in the next section because it they are

the next section because it they are primarily based on status games and they

primarily based on status games and they are based in insecurity and but it it

are based in insecurity and but it it it's part of unlike an adult toxic

it's part of unlike an adult toxic relationship. It's not a flaw

relationship. It's not a flaw necessarily. It's just part of the

necessarily. It's just part of the maturing process. like you kind of have

maturing process. like you kind of have to go through a lot of those toxic

to go through a lot of those toxic friendships to realize, oh, that's not a

friendships to realize, oh, that's not a friendship. I was just being very

friendship. I was just being very insecure and I thought I thought she was

insecure and I thought I thought she was really cool because of XYZ reason and it

really cool because of XYZ reason and it turns out no, that's not that's not the

turns out no, that's not that's not the case.

case. >> I think what happens in young adulthood

>> I think what happens in young adulthood is you start figuring out what you

is you start figuring out what you actually value and care about. Yes. And

actually value and care about. Yes. And >> um and similarly,

>> um and similarly, yeah, you part of that process is

yeah, you part of that process is shedding old friendships of realizing

shedding old friendships of realizing like, oh, I don't actually care about

like, oh, I don't actually care about this thing.

this thing. And now that I realize I don't care

And now that I realize I don't care about this thing, it's kind of hard to

about this thing, it's kind of hard to to be around this person after realizing

to be around this person after realizing it.

it. >> Yeah. A lot of experiences.

>> Yeah. A lot of experiences. >> Yeah. Um, and so there I I do think

>> Yeah. Um, and so there I I do think there is quite a bit of disappointment,

there is quite a bit of disappointment, but there's also it's funny because, you

but there's also it's funny because, you know, one of the common tropes in in the

know, one of the common tropes in in the self-help space is uh is that when you

self-help space is uh is that when you grow, you're going to lose friends. And

grow, you're going to lose friends. And and it's always it's always framed or

and it's always it's always framed or positioned as like uh well, they weren't

positioned as like uh well, they weren't good enough for you anyway. Like you

good enough for you anyway. Like you know, people are just trying to hold you

know, people are just trying to hold you back. you know, it's it's kind of this

back. you know, it's it's kind of this very competitive, you know, they're

very competitive, you know, they're jealous because you've like discovered

jealous because you've like discovered who you are or whatever,

who you are or whatever, >> or you've uncovered some flaw in them

>> or you've uncovered some flaw in them and they don't like it.

and they don't like it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And sure, I think on the

>> Yeah. Yeah. And sure, I think on the margin there's probably some of that,

margin there's probably some of that, especially if you do have like very

especially if you do have like very toxic relationships in your life. Yes,

toxic relationships in your life. Yes, there's going to be some of that, but I

there's going to be some of that, but I think a lot of it is innocuous. I think

think a lot of it is innocuous. I think a lot of it is just like,

a lot of it is just like, >> you know, I realize that this isn't my

>> you know, I realize that this isn't my path and I want to be on a a different

path and I want to be on a a different path. And as soon as you realize that,

path. And as soon as you realize that, you stop relating to that person. And

you stop relating to that person. And it's not nobody's wrong,

it's not nobody's wrong, >> like nobody's jealous, nobody's like

>> like nobody's jealous, nobody's like turning their back on you. It's not this

turning their back on you. It's not this big like dramatic

big like dramatic movie like thing. Uh it's just life.

movie like thing. Uh it's just life. Yeah.

Yeah. >> It's just realizing like, oh, I don't

>> It's just realizing like, oh, I don't really have anything in common with you

really have anything in common with you anymore, and that's okay.

anymore, and that's okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think there I think you're

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think there I think you're right. like in adolescence especially

right. like in adolescence especially like late adolescence going into

like late adolescence going into adulthood there's a lot of pressure to

adulthood there's a lot of pressure to kind of like find your tribe right

kind of like find your tribe right >> and that

>> and that >> that spins up all of that I think and um

>> that spins up all of that I think and um you know it's if you there there's some

you know it's if you there there's some people who like if they don't find that

people who like if they don't find that they feel like less than right they feel

they feel like less than right they feel unworthy and all of that and they can

unworthy and all of that and they can carry that into adulthood and I think

carry that into adulthood and I think that's a lot of what happens um but the

that's a lot of what happens um but the the pressure that mounts there if you

the pressure that mounts there if you can find that release valve that you're

can find that release valve that you're talking about like it's that's just how

talking about like it's that's just how it is that's life yeah

it is that's life yeah >> that for me that softened to blow quite

>> that for me that softened to blow quite a bit too cuz yeah I wanted to be like

a bit too cuz yeah I wanted to be like part of a certain crowd or whatever it

part of a certain crowd or whatever it was and then I found out oh no I don't

was and then I found out oh no I don't >> I I don't and I'm okay with that

>> I I don't and I'm okay with that >> and after it happens a few times you you

>> and after it happens a few times you you you kind of get over it you're like oh

you kind of get over it you're like oh yeah that's just natural like

yeah that's just natural like >> people aren't supposed to be in your

>> people aren't supposed to be in your life forever not very few people are

life forever not very few people are supposed to be are supposed to be in

supposed to be are supposed to be in your life forever and and that's okay

your life forever and and that's okay >> yeah I think one of the one of the good

>> yeah I think one of the one of the good things about modern culture is that

things about modern culture is that there it's like if there is a good part

there it's like if there is a good part about the fragmenting of modern culture

about the fragmenting of modern culture is that like you can find your little

is that like you can find your little pocket in whatever stage of life you're

pocket in whatever stage of life you're in. You know, there like nerd culture or

in. You know, there like nerd culture or whatever culture is.

whatever culture is. >> I thought you were going to say it's

>> I thought you were going to say it's easier to ghost people.

easier to ghost people. >> Well, that Yeah, that's the other side

>> Well, that Yeah, that's the other side of it. That's the other side of it for

of it. That's the other side of it for sure. We'll get into that.

sure. We'll get into that. >> Yeah. But yeah, uh that's uh I I I think

>> Yeah. But yeah, uh that's uh I I I think you you can find as long as you don't

you you can find as long as you don't like kind of glom onto the all of those

like kind of glom onto the all of those um all of the like you know you need to

um all of the like you know you need to be a part of this certain crowd or or

be a part of this certain crowd or or fit into this certain way like do your

fit into this certain way like do your own thing, take your own path. There's

own thing, take your own path. There's plenty of opportunity for that and

plenty of opportunity for that and that's where I hopefully you can figure

that's where I hopefully you can figure that out at this stage of your life when

that out at this stage of your life when in young adulthood anyway

in young adulthood anyway >> um and carry that on uh later in life

>> um and carry that on uh later in life and just be okay with yourself. That's

and just be okay with yourself. That's that's what I found anyway. It's like,

that's what I found anyway. It's like, "Oh, okay. I'm okay with who I am and I

"Oh, okay. I'm okay with who I am and I don't fit into this mold over here, so

don't fit into this mold over here, so I'm going to go over here." And that's

I'm going to go over here." And that's fine. So, yeah.

fine. So, yeah. >> So, what about middle age?

>> So, what about middle age? >> Yeah. Adulthood where we are, Mark.

>> Yeah. Adulthood where we are, Mark. Middle age. Well, 30 to 65, let's say,

Middle age. Well, 30 to 65, let's say, or something like that. 30 to 60

or something like that. 30 to 60 somewhere in there, right?

somewhere in there, right? >> Um, I think there's a further narrowing

>> Um, I think there's a further narrowing that goes on here too, right? But a lot

that goes on here too, right? But a lot of things get in the way of friendships

of things get in the way of friendships here. And this is where I think the

here. And this is where I think the whole narrative around the dip in

whole narrative around the dip in friendship comes during adulthood.

friendship comes during adulthood. Parents, parenting, you're very focused

Parents, parenting, you're very focused on your career.

on your career. >> Um, you

>> Um, you >> I think it's worth explaining what you

>> I think it's worth explaining what you mean by the dip. Like there's

mean by the dip. Like there's >> Okay. Yeah.

>> Okay. Yeah. >> There's like a

>> There's like a >> Yeah. So, think about it. You know, like

>> Yeah. So, think about it. You know, like when you're in high school, you have

when you're in high school, you have this built-in kind of infrastructure for

this built-in kind of infrastructure for your friendship. Same thing with college

your friendship. Same thing with college for the most part. And it's even

for the most part. And it's even narrowed down a little bit more because

narrowed down a little bit more because you're all kind of in these little

you're all kind of in these little interest groups, right? like your major,

interest groups, right? like your major, your degree, your clubs that you join,

your degree, your clubs that you join, whatever it is, and there's this whole

whatever it is, and there's this whole infrastructure for it. Then you get out

infrastructure for it. Then you get out into the real world um and there's not

into the real world um and there's not that same infrastructure there. Yeah.

that same infrastructure there. Yeah. >> Right. And then not only that, but you

>> Right. And then not only that, but you have all these responsibilities on top

have all these responsibilities on top of you and maybe you've gotten married

of you and maybe you've gotten married by this point and had kids and you have

by this point and had kids and you have a career or at least a job that takes up

a career or at least a job that takes up a lot of your time. Um and all of these

a lot of your time. Um and all of these things just start pushing out your your

things just start pushing out your your social network a little bit that you you

social network a little bit that you you have to you you think anyway that you

have to you you think anyway that you have to prioritize all these other

have to prioritize all these other things. Yes.

things. Yes. >> Um, and friendships kind of get pushed

>> Um, and friendships kind of get pushed aside or tend to get pushed aside in

aside or tend to get pushed aside in this stage of life.

this stage of life. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> I I I I would imagine that this is kind

>> I I I I would imagine that this is kind of the

of the >> if you were to average it all out like

>> if you were to average it all out like the the all-time low of friendships is

the the all-time low of friendships is probably in this period of like

probably in this period of like >> 30s, 40s,

>> 30s, 40s, >> 30s, 40s, 50s and then it probably comes

>> 30s, 40s, 50s and then it probably comes back in retirement.

back in retirement. >> Yeah, for sure.

>> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> A a lot of people you do though there is

>> A a lot of people you do though there is a winnowing and this can be a good

a winnowing and this can be a good thing. Okay. You go from a bigger social

thing. Okay. You go from a bigger social group. I mean like in college I kind of

group. I mean like in college I kind of had this kind of diffuse group of

had this kind of diffuse group of friends, right? And then it definitely

friends, right? And then it definitely narrowed down after college and and my

narrowed down after college and and my friend groups got smaller but they got

friend groups got smaller but they got tighter. Um and you there's good and bad

tighter. Um and you there's good and bad ways to navigate that obviously too but

ways to navigate that obviously too but that does happen.

that does happen. Um you start to realize in this stage

Um you start to realize in this stage though too that oh friendships really

though too that oh friendships really take effort.

take effort. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And then I think where the problem comes

>> And then I think where the problem comes is are you willing to pay that price or

is are you willing to pay that price or not? Right. And this is where I think a

not? Right. And this is where I think a lot of people are right now, at least

lot of people are right now, at least like in our age group anyway, is like,

like in our age group anyway, is like, I'm not willing, you know, people are

I'm not willing, you know, people are [ __ ] This sucks. I'm not even going

[ __ ] This sucks. I'm not even going to worry about this. I'll focus on work.

to worry about this. I'll focus on work. I'll focus on my relationship with my

I'll focus on my relationship with my spouse.

spouse. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Whatever it is, right? What are your

>> Whatever it is, right? What are your notes?

notes? >> I've got bullet points to go through

>> I've got bullet points to go through here. I mean, I I do think

here. I mean, I I do think >> and I now we're getting into like my

>> and I now we're getting into like my personal experience as well. I would say

personal experience as well. I would say a there's a few dynamics that I think

a there's a few dynamics that I think make friendships in middle age

make friendships in middle age particularly difficult. You know, when

particularly difficult. You know, when you're young, you have no idea who you

you're young, you have no idea who you are. So, you could potentially be

are. So, you could potentially be anybody. So, you're now interested in

anybody. So, you're now interested in meeting, associating, and hanging out

meeting, associating, and hanging out with anybody, right? It's like there's

with anybody, right? It's like there's just the world's your oyster.

just the world's your oyster. The more crazy background the person

The more crazy background the person has, like the more interested you are to

has, like the more interested you are to to discover and figure out who what type

to discover and figure out who what type of person this is. I think once you hit

of person this is. I think once you hit middle age, you you know what you like,

middle age, you you know what you like, you know what you care about, you've got

you know what you care about, you've got your commitments, you have your goals. I

your commitments, you have your goals. I think it just it just narrows the range

think it just it just narrows the range of people that I'm not going to say that

of people that I'm not going to say that you're curious about, but like

you're curious about, but like >> that you you realistically are like, am

>> that you you realistically are like, am I going to be a good like am I going to

I going to be a good like am I going to be a close friend with this person?

be a close friend with this person? Probably not. Like I just, you know, I

Probably not. Like I just, you know, I can't go to Tahiti four times a year. So

can't go to Tahiti four times a year. So like

like >> nice meeting you, Tahesian friend, but

>> nice meeting you, Tahesian friend, but like have a nice life. I would say

like have a nice life. I would say there's a focus on higher quality

there's a focus on higher quality relationships and and lower quantity of

relationships and and lower quantity of relationships.

relationships. >> Um and and part of that is just out of

>> Um and and part of that is just out of your own psychological interest.

your own psychological interest. >> The second reason for that is that I

>> The second reason for that is that I think there's real opportunity costs in

think there's real opportunity costs in middle age.

middle age. >> So again, when you're young, nobody has

>> So again, when you're young, nobody has anything going on. Nobody has any like

anything going on. Nobody has any like nobody knows what they're doing. Nobody

nobody knows what they're doing. Nobody has a career, right? Yeah. like no,

has a career, right? Yeah. like no, nobody is, it's just, yeah, sure, I can

nobody is, it's just, yeah, sure, I can take two weeks and go to Ireland, like

take two weeks and go to Ireland, like and drink beer, like [ __ ] it. Why not,

and drink beer, like [ __ ] it. Why not, you know? And so you just you just start

you know? And so you just you just start doing things. And once you get to middle

doing things. And once you get to middle age, um, chances are you you have a

age, um, chances are you you have a family, you have a house, you have car

family, you have a house, you have car payments, you have insurance, you have a

payments, you have insurance, you have a career. Um, you've got a bunch of goals

career. Um, you've got a bunch of goals and dreams for yourself. you know,

and dreams for yourself. you know, suddenly it's like just taking off and

suddenly it's like just taking off and going spending two weeks in Ireland.

going spending two weeks in Ireland. Like there's major opportunity cost to

Like there's major opportunity cost to that. Yeah. You're like, "Okay, I'm

that. Yeah. You're like, "Okay, I'm giving up a lot to go on that trip." Uh,

giving up a lot to go on that trip." Uh, do I do I actually want to do that? No.

do I do I actually want to do that? No. Actually, I probably don't want to do

Actually, I probably don't want to do that. And I think that limits that

that. And I think that limits that potentially limits a lot of the peak

potentially limits a lot of the peak experiences that you know you get you

experiences that you know you get you get tons of peak experiences in your

get tons of peak experiences in your adolescence in your 20s and then I think

adolescence in your 20s and then I think once you get to your 30s and 40s it's

once you get to your 30s and 40s it's like a peak experience is a is a

like a peak experience is a is a Saturday without the kids. Like that's

Saturday without the kids. Like that's kind of your peak experience.

kind of your peak experience. >> So that's a complicating factor uh as

>> So that's a complicating factor uh as well. And then I would say that the

well. And then I would say that the third thing I wrote down is the

third thing I wrote down is the relationship piece. It's

relationship piece. It's it's um it's funny. I I feel like every

it's um it's funny. I I feel like every married couple is is going to

married couple is is going to immediately understand what I'm saying,

immediately understand what I'm saying, but you know, when you're married, it I

but you know, when you're married, it I I can't tell you how many times uh like

I can't tell you how many times uh like my wife will will make a friend and

my wife will will make a friend and she'll come home and she'll tell me

she'll come home and she'll tell me about the friend and and she'll be like,

about the friend and and she'll be like, "Please, please, please, I hope you like

"Please, please, please, I hope you like her husband." You know, or I'll meet

her husband." You know, or I'll meet I'll make a friend and I'll I'll come

I'll make a friend and I'll I'll come home and I'll I'll tell my wife like,

home and I'll I'll tell my wife like, "Please, please, please, I hope you like

"Please, please, please, I hope you like his wife." you know, cuz it's

his wife." you know, cuz it's >> there's [ __ ] like it's a thing. It's

>> there's [ __ ] like it's a thing. It's a real thing. And it it's the difference

a real thing. And it it's the difference between um the spouses getting along and

between um the spouses getting along and them not. It like very tangibly changes

them not. It like very tangibly changes the relationship.

the relationship. >> It's the difference between uh a surf

>> It's the difference between uh a surf buddy that I see once a month and like a

buddy that I see once a month and like a very close friend that I see on a weekly

very close friend that I see on a weekly basis. When you're when you're a couple

basis. When you're when you're a couple and you and like the magic formula is

and you and like the magic formula is when you're a couple and you find

when you're a couple and you find another couple where it's like you both

another couple where it's like you both both of you like both of them and both

both of you like both of them and both of them like both of you and it's

of them like both of you and it's >> but because there's four people involved

>> but because there's four people involved instead of two it's exponentially more

instead of two it's exponentially more complicated.

complicated. >> Yeah. That's not a linear like onetoone

>> Yeah. That's not a linear like onetoone thing. That that's that's very true.

thing. That that's that's very true. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. That's very

Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. That's very complicating.

complicating. >> That's a very big complicating factor

>> That's a very big complicating factor that Yeah. And it and it's tough because

that Yeah. And it and it's tough because then what what you end up with is, you

then what what you end up with is, you know, so my wife and I, we have two or

know, so my wife and I, we have two or three couples that

three couples that >> we're close with and those are probably

>> we're close with and those are probably our closest friends just because you get

our closest friends just because you get from from like an ROI point of view,

from from like an ROI point of view, right?

right? >> If my wife and I are going to spend a

>> If my wife and I are going to spend a Saturday night,

Saturday night, >> it's better to spend it with a couple

>> it's better to spend it with a couple that we both like,

that we both like, >> you know, so we we both get to

>> you know, so we we both get to >> have an enjoyable social experience. Um,

>> have an enjoyable social experience. Um, you know, so we have two or three

you know, so we have two or three couples that that we get along really

couples that that we get along really well with and we probably see them the

well with and we probably see them the most often, but then it's like she has

most often, but then it's like she has her girlfriends and I have some of my

her girlfriends and I have some of my guys and you just kind of like fit them

guys and you just kind of like fit them in where when when and where you can and

in where when when and where you can and >> often, you know, if you're busy and

>> often, you know, if you're busy and you're traveling and you got work stuff

you're traveling and you got work stuff and um

and um >> and you're hanging out with these other

>> and you're hanging out with these other couples.

couples. >> Yeah. And you're hanging out with these

>> Yeah. And you're hanging out with these other couples, like it just the time

other couples, like it just the time >> it becomes very hard to to fit them in.

>> it becomes very hard to to fit them in. And on top of that,

And on top of that, you know, when you have kids, you

you know, when you have kids, you compound that even a third time, which

compound that even a third time, which is,

is, >> do we like the couple? Does our kid like

>> do we like the couple? Does our kid like their kid?

their kid? >> And I think a a problem that a lot of

>> And I think a a problem that a lot of couples or a lot of people run into is

couples or a lot of people run into is that their kids make friends with some

that their kids make friends with some other kid and they meet the parents and

other kid and they meet the parents and they're like,

they're like, >> "Please God, let me like the parents.

>> "Please God, let me like the parents. Please, please, please let me like the

Please, please, please let me like the parents." And it's it's and you know

parents." And it's it's and you know once you find those the parents uh uh

once you find those the parents uh uh that you that you get along with and

that you that you get along with and that you really you can be friends with

that you really you can be friends with then it's like oh my god this is gold

then it's like oh my god this is gold now we can travel together we can do

now we can travel together we can do weekends together. We can go to

weekends together. We can go to Disneyland together. Like we can have

Disneyland together. Like we can have playdates together. It's

playdates together. It's >> um it's hard to find but then when you

>> um it's hard to find but then when you find it you like latch on to it. And uh

find it you like latch on to it. And uh but yeah there's a lot of complicating

but yeah there's a lot of complicating factors in this age range. And I think

factors in this age range. And I think the the hardest part the like the the

the the hardest part the like the the most difficult thing for I think my wife

most difficult thing for I think my wife and I to accept is that these

and I to accept is that these complicating factors they exist for a

complicating factors they exist for a good reason, right? Like

good reason, right? Like my my career makes it complicated, makes

my my career makes it complicated, makes it hard and complicated uh to make a lot

it hard and complicated uh to make a lot of friends. Um

of friends. Um >> part of that is just being a public

>> part of that is just being a public figure, but part of that is is just how

figure, but part of that is is just how busy I am.

busy I am. >> But I wouldn't give that up. I wouldn't

>> But I wouldn't give that up. I wouldn't trade that in, right?

trade that in, right? >> Um, being married in some ways

>> Um, being married in some ways >> complicates making friends.

>> complicates making friends. >> Uh, I definitely wouldn't give that up,

>> Uh, I definitely wouldn't give that up, right? So, it's like knowing who I am

right? So, it's like knowing who I am and knowing what I care about and like

and knowing what I care about and like really only spending all my time

really only spending all my time focusing on like the two or three things

focusing on like the two or three things that are most important to me

that are most important to me also complicates making friends, but I

also complicates making friends, but I wouldn't give that up either. So, um, it

wouldn't give that up either. So, um, it it's

it's >> it is a tough phase, I think. Yeah. And

>> it is a tough phase, I think. Yeah. And it is like it's not that there's no

it is like it's not that there's no solution, but I just think it's it's

solution, but I just think it's it's like playing your social life on hard

like playing your social life on hard mode

mode >> essentially. And and and you're coming

>> essentially. And and and you're coming out of a period of your life, your teens

out of a period of your life, your teens and 20s, which was like really playing

and 20s, which was like really playing social life on easy mode in a lot of

social life on easy mode in a lot of ways. Like everything was working in

ways. Like everything was working in your favor.

your favor. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think two two

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think two two other complicating factors I think I

other complicating factors I think I would bring up. One is like your job

would bring up. One is like your job stability during this time.

stability during this time. >> Yeah. U this was something I didn't

>> Yeah. U this was something I didn't really think of um until I was talking

really think of um until I was talking with my sister about this and my my

with my sister about this and my my sister um has changed jobs a lot. Not on

sister um has changed jobs a lot. Not on her own necessarily. Most of the time

her own necessarily. Most of the time it's been like she she's a social worker

it's been like she she's a social worker or has been in social work in some

or has been in social work in some capacity.

capacity. >> The department gets cut. Yeah. They lay

>> The department gets cut. Yeah. They lay off this whole whatever it is. She's had

off this whole whatever it is. She's had to change change jobs quite a bit. and

to change change jobs quite a bit. and like those for especially for this uh

like those for especially for this uh period of your life that's a if if

period of your life that's a if if you're focused on your career and

you're focused on your career and focused on that that's a big source of

focused on that that's a big source of connection for you and if you lose that

connection for you and if you lose that every few years those people just kind

every few years those people just kind of fade away.

of fade away. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So like that I I didn't I never thought

>> So like that I I didn't I never thought of that because I've had this job for

of that because I've had this job for you know 11 years or

you know 11 years or >> that's a huge one. I think we should

>> that's a huge one. I think we should come back to that in the in the next

come back to that in the in the next section when we talk about why why it's

section when we talk about why why it's becoming harder to make friends. But

becoming harder to make friends. But yeah, the the job stability thing, I

yeah, the the job stability thing, I mean, I see it

mean, I see it >> I I I I forget where it it wasn't in the

>> I I I I forget where it it wasn't in the research for this episode, but I did see

research for this episode, but I did see somewhere recently that it was some

somewhere recently that it was some statistic that it was like, you know, a

statistic that it was like, you know, a couple generations ago, like our parents

couple generations ago, like our parents parents' generation, like the average

parents' generation, like the average tenure at a job was like a decade,

tenure at a job was like a decade, right?

right? >> And I think now it's like 18 months.

>> And I think now it's like 18 months. >> It's less than two years. Yeah.

>> It's less than two years. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> And and it and I see it too like when we

>> And and it and I see it too like when we hire like resumes come in and it's a new

hire like resumes come in and it's a new [ __ ] company every every 12 to 18

[ __ ] company every every 12 to 18 months.

months. >> And yeah, you can't really build a

>> And yeah, you can't really build a community or like a really stable social

community or like a really stable social or it be you can but it's very hard.

or it be you can but it's very hard. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> it's very hard.

>> it's very hard. >> We will get into that and some of the

>> We will get into that and some of the complications here. But yeah, just

complications here. But yeah, just wanted to mention that. The other the

wanted to mention that. The other the other thing I wanted to bring up though

other thing I wanted to bring up though too is like um any like a lot of mental

too is like um any like a lot of mental health problems usually develop in this

health problems usually develop in this and in your 30s. I know a lot of my

and in your 30s. I know a lot of my therapist friends are like most people

therapist friends are like most people start therapy in their 30s.

start therapy in their 30s. >> Interesting.

>> Interesting. >> Yeah. And then and I have to continue it

>> Yeah. And then and I have to continue it into their 40s, you know.

into their 40s, you know. >> Um and so those that comes up in that is

>> Um and so those that comes up in that is >> that's a factor. Yeah.

>> that's a factor. Yeah. >> Uh in in making friends uh your mental

>> Uh in in making friends uh your mental health, whether it's the stigma around

health, whether it's the stigma around it or just it's kind of a vicious cycle

it or just it's kind of a vicious cycle too. You know, you if you have mental

too. You know, you if you have mental health problems, you don't feel worthy

health problems, you don't feel worthy of having having friends and so you

of having having friends and so you don't go make friends and you it gets

don't go make friends and you it gets worse. And this is that time period for

worse. And this is that time period for >> I'll add another thing to that. Um,

>> I'll add another thing to that. Um, >> again, when you're in your 20s or a

>> again, when you're in your 20s or a teenager, every it's a level playing

teenager, every it's a level playing field.

field. >> Yep. Yep. You know,

>> Yep. Yep. You know, >> oh, I I think I know where you're going.

>> oh, I I think I know where you're going. Okay.

Okay. >> Yeah. Everybody's Everybody's broke.

>> Yeah. Everybody's Everybody's broke. >> Nobody has a career. Nobody Nobody No

>> Nobody has a career. Nobody Nobody No major decisions have been made yet.

major decisions have been made yet. >> When you get to 40, everybody's made

>> When you get to 40, everybody's made some major decisions and everybody can

some major decisions and everybody can see the consequences of those.

see the consequences of those. >> You wear them on your sleeve at that

>> You wear them on your sleeve at that point. Yeah.

point. Yeah. >> Like so it's very

>> Like so it's very >> it it can be it can be a little bit

>> it it can be it can be a little bit obvious like you you see people who uh

obvious like you you see people who uh like really squandered uh you know or or

like really squandered uh you know or or really made bad choices or really didn't

really made bad choices or really didn't take care of themselves. And it it so

take care of themselves. And it it so it's

it's >> again it comes back to that narrowing,

>> again it comes back to that narrowing, right? Like it it's it's the the pool of

right? Like it it's it's the the pool of people that you're going to be

people that you're going to be interested in being friends with has

interested in being friends with has like slimmed down quite a bit.

like slimmed down quite a bit. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Well, we'll wrap

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Well, we'll wrap this up then with later later adulthood.

this up then with later later adulthood. >> Yes. Old age.

>> Yes. Old age. >> Old age. When you get into your, you

>> Old age. When you get into your, you know, 60s, 707s, 80s and beyond, all of

know, 60s, 707s, 80s and beyond, all of those obligations are usually taken care

those obligations are usually taken care of or or they start fading away a little

of or or they start fading away a little bit. Um, those those big lifeuh

bit. Um, those those big lifeuh obligations anyway. Your obligations

obligations anyway. Your obligations change.

change. >> Kids are grown up, moved out.

>> Kids are grown up, moved out. >> Yeah. Probably got maybe

>> Yeah. Probably got maybe >> retired.

>> retired. >> Yeah. you've maybe paid the house off or

>> Yeah. you've maybe paid the house off or close to it or or you know, you've you

close to it or or you know, you've you might have some financial stability or

might have some financial stability or at least you've gotten used to your

at least you've gotten used to your financial situation by that point,

financial situation by that point, right?

right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> The people who seem to do the best in

>> The people who seem to do the best in this have made some long-standing

this have made some long-standing friendships or at least rekindled some

friendships or at least rekindled some from the past

from the past >> um that give them some uh you know some

>> um that give them some uh you know some kind of a resilient network that they

kind of a resilient network that they can lean on. uh health issues become a

can lean on. uh health issues become a point or become a a thing at this point

point or become a a thing at this point uh that you have to deal with and so

uh that you have to deal with and so friends and your larger social network

friends and your larger social network become even more important at this

become even more important at this >> what I think is interesting too right

>> what I think is interesting too right now you know there's a lot of people who

now you know there's a lot of people who there's probably a perception still even

there's probably a perception still even that oh old people are lonely actually

that oh old people are lonely actually like the highest rates of loneliness are

like the highest rates of loneliness are in younger uh people at at this time

in younger uh people at at this time older people are actually doing better I

older people are actually doing better I maybe not awesome but they're doing

maybe not awesome but they're doing better than a lot of the younger

better than a lot of the younger generations right now And I but I think

generations right now And I but I think really what that is is that

really what that is is that >> the you get to this point you're like

>> the you get to this point you're like you realize what's important, right? You

you realize what's important, right? You realize that these relationships are

realize that these relationships are actually what is the most important part

actually what is the most important part of life.

of life. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um and so you start to prioritize them

>> Um and so you start to prioritize them more than you would have you've done

more than you would have you've done your career. You've you've did what you

your career. You've you've did what you you've made peace with the things you

you've made peace with the things you didn't accomplish.

didn't accomplish. >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> At this point and you start saying,

>> At this point and you start saying, "Okay, actually what it is is

"Okay, actually what it is is relationships." You know, I always think

relationships." You know, I always think of David Brooks.

of David Brooks. >> U you know, he's I think he's in his 70s

>> U you know, he's I think he's in his 70s now. Um, and every interview I hear with

now. Um, and every interview I hear with him or every speech, he always brings up

him or every speech, he always brings up the fact he's like, "I wish I would have

the fact he's like, "I wish I would have spent more time on my relationships."

spent more time on my relationships." That's the regret, biggest regret he

That's the regret, biggest regret he has. And so, now he's come back to do

has. And so, now he's come back to do that more and more.

that more and more. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And I I think it's just way more, you

>> And I I think it's just way more, you know, your mortality. You It's more

know, your mortality. You It's more front of mind. So, it's a clarifying

front of mind. So, it's a clarifying event in your in your mind now. And you

event in your in your mind now. And you start to see that actually, you know,

start to see that actually, you know, it's my friends and my family and the

it's my friends and my family and the the social ties that I have that are

the social ties that I have that are really what's giving me meaning at this

really what's giving me meaning at this point. So, you double down on them. I

point. So, you double down on them. I definitely I I've talked to my mom about

definitely I I've talked to my mom about this. My mom is

this. My mom is >> uh in a living in a like a retirement

>> uh in a living in a like a retirement community neighborhood. Yeah.

community neighborhood. Yeah. >> Um

>> Um >> and she's happy as a [ __ ] clam, which

>> and she's happy as a [ __ ] clam, which is great to see. But it it's interesting

is great to see. But it it's interesting talking to her about it because it's I

talking to her about it because it's I there are a few impressions that I get.

there are a few impressions that I get. One you and you touched briefly on a

One you and you touched briefly on a couple of them, but one of one I've I've

couple of them, but one of one I've I've I've talked to her about or heard her

I've talked to her about or heard her say is that it's just like you get to

say is that it's just like you get to your 70, it's like everything's done,

your 70, it's like everything's done, you know? So, you get you get to your

you know? So, you get you get to your 70s and you just kind of let go of

70s and you just kind of let go of stuff. You're like, you know what? I

stuff. You're like, you know what? I just want to play bridge and like go to

just want to play bridge and like go to movie night, you know, like I don't

movie night, you know, like I don't really

really >> like let's not I'm not going to hold it

>> like let's not I'm not going to hold it against this person if you know uh 30

against this person if you know uh 30 years ago they

years ago they >> made a bad decision or whatever or they

>> made a bad decision or whatever or they they've been divorced twice, you know?

they've been divorced twice, you know? It's just like let's just play bridge

It's just like let's just play bridge and eat pizza.

and eat pizza. >> Consistency over intensity.

>> Consistency over intensity. >> Exactly. It becomes those small little

>> Exactly. It becomes those small little things and you're just you're you're you

things and you're just you're you're you realize how much connection on a just a

realize how much connection on a just a consistent even small basis matters at

consistent even small basis matters at that point.

that point. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And then the other thing that that's

>> And then the other thing that that's really apparent too is the importance of

really apparent too is the importance of that that network on just for health

that that network on just for health reasons. you know, it's just

reasons. you know, it's just >> um you know, she at any given time she

>> um you know, she at any given time she knows people in the neighborhood,

knows people in the neighborhood, neighbors, friends who are getting

neighbors, friends who are getting surgeries in the hospital, cancer

surgeries in the hospital, cancer diagnosis, you know, and and she's had

diagnosis, you know, and and she's had to rely on friends and neighbors a lot,

to rely on friends and neighbors a lot, you know, for for for stuff with her as

you know, for for for stuff with her as well. And it's you you see how important

well. And it's you you see how important it it starts to get at that age. Um, so

it it starts to get at that age. Um, so yeah, it's just there seems to be a a a

yeah, it's just there seems to be a a a more

more just kind of a more calm positive

just kind of a more calm positive regard, you know? It's just like let's

regard, you know? It's just like let's just get along like like

just get along like like >> I think you're more forgiving of people

>> I think you're more forgiving of people too at that point, you know? You're

too at that point, you know? You're probably you probably are at the point

probably you probably are at the point where you're more accepting of different

where you're more accepting of different people, I would say, at that point

people, I would say, at that point anyway.

anyway. >> Yeah. You've you've seen it all. You've

>> Yeah. You've you've seen it all. You've seen it all. Yeah.

I I just want to touch on gender dynamics because it is a thing and it is

dynamics because it is a thing and it is a bit of a hot button topic that comes

a bit of a hot button topic that comes up online quite a bit. Like it's

up online quite a bit. Like it's definitely it gets me'd quite a bit uh

definitely it gets me'd quite a bit uh in various ways. Um

in various ways. Um >> so I guess I I'll quickly go over the

>> so I guess I I'll quickly go over the research um and then we can kind of talk

research um and then we can kind of talk talk about maybe some of the spicier

talk about maybe some of the spicier controversial takes. Um, I don't have a

controversial takes. Um, I don't have a ton to say about it, but we might as

ton to say about it, but we might as well touch on it since we're here. So,

well touch on it since we're here. So, the thing that is real, there's an old

the thing that is real, there's an old saying that um, men stands

saying that um, men stands shoulder-to-shoulder uh, and look out,

shoulder-to-shoulder uh, and look out, and women stand face to face and look at

and women stand face to face and look at each other. There's actually quite a bit

each other. There's actually quite a bit of evidence that that that is true. Men

of evidence that that that is true. Men tend to prefer to do something together

tend to prefer to do something together and women tend to talk to each other,

and women tend to talk to each other, face each other, and talk to each other.

face each other, and talk to each other. And um and as a result, and again this

And um and as a result, and again this comes back to like why I didn't I didn't

comes back to like why I didn't I didn't really like using vulnerability as that

really like using vulnerability as that third factor. As a result, I think deep

third factor. As a result, I think deep male friendships tend to be based around

male friendships tend to be based around mutual experiences.

mutual experiences. >> Uh things that they've gone through

>> Uh things that they've gone through together, things that they've done

together, things that they've done together, challenges that they've faced

together, challenges that they've faced together, projects that they've done

together, projects that they've done together. And and I think women, for

together. And and I think women, for women, it tends to be much more about

women, it tends to be much more about self-disclosure, talking about, you

self-disclosure, talking about, you know, their their thoughts, their

know, their their thoughts, their feelings, their lives, their past, their

feelings, their lives, their past, their future, their dreams, everything. You

future, their dreams, everything. You know, it's it's there's an old joke uh I

know, it's it's there's an old joke uh I forget where I heard it or where it

forget where I heard it or where it originated, but it was uh there was like

originated, but it was uh there was like a guy who his friend got divorced and uh

a guy who his friend got divorced and uh he went and played golf for 4 hours with

he went and played golf for 4 hours with him and and then uh the guy came home

him and and then uh the guy came home and his wife was like, "Oh my god, how

and his wife was like, "Oh my god, how is he? how's he doing? And and the

is he? how's he doing? And and the husband just kind of shrugged. He's

husband just kind of shrugged. He's like, "Yeah, he's doing fine." And she's

like, "Yeah, he's doing fine." And she's like, "Really? Like, what does he think

like, "Really? Like, what does he think about the divorce?" And the husband

about the divorce?" And the husband says, "Well, we didn't really talk about

says, "Well, we didn't really talk about it, but the golf game went great.

it, but the golf game went great. >> He shot a 74. It was awesome."

>> He shot a 74. It was awesome." >> Yeah, it was awesome.

>> Yeah, it was awesome. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I mean, it is a stereotype. It's a

>> And I mean, it is a stereotype. It's a joke because it's a stereotype, but as

joke because it's a stereotype, but as with a lot of stereotypes, there's some

with a lot of stereotypes, there's some truth to it.

truth to it. >> But Okay. Dude, so do you think that

>> But Okay. Dude, so do you think that that you kind of already mentioned

that you kind of already mentioned you're like maybe that's not such a bad

you're like maybe that's not such a bad thing. Maybe that's okay. Like women

thing. Maybe that's okay. Like women will tend to kind of criticize men for

will tend to kind of criticize men for that. Like, oh, you can't open up to

that. Like, oh, you can't open up to each other. You can't connect with each

each other. You can't connect with each other. And it's like, well,

other. And it's like, well, >> yeah. Well, the same way men will

>> yeah. Well, the same way men will criticize women for dumping all their

criticize women for dumping all their feelings all the time and complaining

feelings all the time and complaining about every little problem in their

about every little problem in their life, right? So, it it is

life, right? So, it it is >> my take on this is that there's no right

>> my take on this is that there's no right or wrong way to have a friendship. like

or wrong way to have a friendship. like if there's a friendship and look I I

if there's a friendship and look I I personally uh

personally uh >> I personally like to to self-disclose

>> I personally like to to self-disclose like and I personally I I will say this

like and I personally I I will say this that my best male friendships are with

that my best male friendships are with men who are also comfortable being

men who are also comfortable being vulnerable and disclosing like I what I

vulnerable and disclosing like I what I generally find is like is men who just

generally find is like is men who just who don't go there or who can't really

who don't go there or who can't really disclose much I can be friends with them

disclose much I can be friends with them but I'm never going to be very close

but I'm never going to be very close friends with them I I definitely look

friends with them I I definitely look for men who are capable of opening up

for men who are capable of opening up and and sharing thoughts and feelings

and and sharing thoughts and feelings and being vulnerable, but I also don't

and being vulnerable, but I also don't like demand that all the time. Yeah. You

like demand that all the time. Yeah. You know, like if we just want to play golf,

know, like if we just want to play golf, we can just play golf. Like it's not a

we can just play golf. Like it's not a huge deal.

huge deal. >> Um

>> Um >> so it is it is a thing. And I and the

>> so it is it is a thing. And I and the same way I I think there's a lot of

same way I I think there's a lot of women out there who want to do things

women out there who want to do things and and they don't want to sit around

and and they don't want to sit around and talk about their feelings all the

and talk about their feelings all the time. And that's great. They should be

time. And that's great. They should be able to do things. Uh

able to do things. Uh >> Jess is over here.

>> Jess is over here. >> She's cheering.

>> She's cheering. >> She's cheering along.

>> She's cheering along. >> Um so while it is

>> Um so while it is generally a true thing, there's a wide

generally a true thing, there's a wide variation in between it. It's a

variation in between it. It's a spectrum, right? And it's like men and

spectrum, right? And it's like men and women are all over that spectrum. And

women are all over that spectrum. And even though maybe the average of men is

even though maybe the average of men is over here and the average of women is

over here and the average of women is over here, um

over here, um >> it takes all types takes all types of

>> it takes all types takes all types of people. Men also too, I maybe you'll get

people. Men also too, I maybe you'll get into this, but men also too um are much

into this, but men also too um are much more likely to like hang out in groups

more likely to like hang out in groups >> where women are much more likely to hang

>> where women are much more likely to hang out one-on-one. Yeah. If you came across

out one-on-one. Yeah. If you came across that, but um I found this too. Like in

that, but um I found this too. Like in my life, I I didn't realize just how

my life, I I didn't realize just how like how prominent this was in my life,

like how prominent this was in my life, too. like the male friends I have. Like

too. like the male friends I have. Like it's not that we don't hang out

it's not that we don't hang out one-on-one, but it's like it's a very

one-on-one, but it's like it's a very different

different vibe and a very almost a different

vibe and a very almost a different relationship that I have with with a

relationship that I have with with a friend when we're in a group versus when

friend when we're in a group versus when we're one-on-one.

we're one-on-one. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Uh especially with my male friends. With

>> Uh especially with my male friends. With my female friends, I have much more

my female friends, I have much more direct relationships with them.

direct relationships with them. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So, I don't know what that is

>> So, I don't know what that is necessarily. I I agree with you that um

necessarily. I I agree with you that um I'm more I I do tend to um gravitate

I'm more I I do tend to um gravitate more towards men who are that we will

more towards men who are that we will self-disclose, but it's more like in a

self-disclose, but it's more like in a group setting and we're kind of all

group setting and we're kind of all bouncing it all off, which I found

bouncing it all off, which I found pretty pretty interesting, too. Yeah.

pretty pretty interesting, too. Yeah. >> It's interesting. Most my friendships

>> It's interesting. Most my friendships are are one-on-one.

are are one-on-one. >> You're one-on-one. Yeah. It's not that I

>> You're one-on-one. Yeah. It's not that I don't have, like I said, it's not that I

don't have, like I said, it's not that I don't have one-on-one relationships with

don't have one-on-one relationships with these, but sometimes it's just kind of

these, but sometimes it's just kind of like

like >> even like a good friend of mine, I'm

>> even like a good friend of mine, I'm like, I'm going to invite him out. I'm

like, I'm going to invite him out. I'm like, I should invite the other guys,

like, I should invite the other guys, too.

too. >> Yeah. Yeah, cuz it's maybe a little more

>> Yeah. Yeah, cuz it's maybe a little more I don't know it just feels different and

I don't know it just feels different and there's a different vibe to it.

there's a different vibe to it. >> I will say so this spectrum both with

>> I will say so this spectrum both with the self-disclosure and the activity and

the self-disclosure and the activity and I maybe even the group thing like

I maybe even the group thing like >> this is very culturally driven as well.

>> this is very culturally driven as well. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So it's there

>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So it's there are some cultures that are

are some cultures that are very very gendered, very like

very very gendered, very like >> for example in Brazil like men down

>> for example in Brazil like men down there's a much more social pressure on

there's a much more social pressure on men down there to be what is

men down there to be what is conventionally masculine, right?

conventionally masculine, right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um to the point that it's funny because

>> Um to the point that it's funny because when I go down there sometimes it kind

when I go down there sometimes it kind of feels like I'm going back to like

of feels like I'm going back to like that mad men.

that mad men. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> I was just down there like a month ago

>> I was just down there like a month ago and and it was really funny. We went to

and and it was really funny. We went to uh my wife and I went to a dinner party

uh my wife and I went to a dinner party really I think it was like four couples

really I think it was like four couples and it was like really lovely dinner

and it was like really lovely dinner enjoyable night and as soon as everybody

enjoyable night and as soon as everybody finished dinner uh all the women got up

finished dinner uh all the women got up and went to the living room to like I

and went to the living room to like I don't know gossip and talk about girly

don't know gossip and talk about girly things and then all the men immediately

things and then all the men immediately it like went straight into business and

it like went straight into business and politics and it was like okay the women

politics and it was like okay the women are gone we can talk about business and

are gone we can talk about business and politics now and it was just I felt like

politics now and it was just I felt like we should have cigars and and scotch and

we should have cigars and and scotch and uh you know uh I should be in a

uh you know uh I should be in a three-piece suit or something. But it

three-piece suit or something. But it like down there that's just that's how

like down there that's just that's how it works. And um the conversations with

it works. And um the conversations with women around and is very different than

women around and is very different than when it's just the guys.

when it's just the guys. >> Yeah. One one tidbit I'll throw in here

>> Yeah. One one tidbit I'll throw in here too though. Um

too though. Um >> and this is something you can't unsee.

>> and this is something you can't unsee. >> Uh but when you next time you go to a

>> Uh but when you next time you go to a party, you talked about the

party, you talked about the shoulderto-shoulder versus face to face

shoulderto-shoulder versus face to face communication. You know, men

communication. You know, men shoulder-to-shoulder, women face to

shoulder-to-shoulder, women face to face. Next time you go to a party, this

face. Next time you go to a party, this is like literally true.

is like literally true. >> Yes, you can see it.

>> Yes, you can see it. >> You can see it. So, when men are

>> You can see it. So, when men are talking, we're usually at a slight angle

talking, we're usually at a slight angle or like literally shouldertosh shoulder

or like literally shouldertosh shoulder when we talk. When women talk, they're

when we talk. When women talk, they're usually face to face. Yeah.

usually face to face. Yeah. >> And it's like when men

>> And it's like when men >> if you if you square up to a man when

>> if you if you square up to a man when you're talking to him, I feel weird. The

you're talking to him, I feel weird. The media thing I think is, are we going to

media thing I think is, are we going to fight or kiss? Like, what is going on

fight or kiss? Like, what is going on here? Are you trying to What are you

here? Are you trying to What are you trying to do here? Right.

trying to do here? Right. >> Dude, it feels weird.

>> Dude, it feels weird. >> It feels so weird. It feels weird.

>> It feels so weird. It feels weird. >> So, just do a little uh your own little

>> So, just do a little uh your own little social experiment.

social experiment. >> Yeah. do an experiment

>> Yeah. do an experiment >> at a party. It's pretty crazy.

>> at a party. It's pretty crazy. >> The other this is completely tangential

>> The other this is completely tangential too, but um I heard this a while like a

too, but um I heard this a while like a long time ago and it's actually true

long time ago and it's actually true too, but conversations usually happen in

too, but conversations usually happen in 44 timing. If you like if you're sitting

44 timing. If you like if you're sitting around there's like three or four people

around there's like three or four people more than that it's not. Yeah,

more than that it's not. Yeah, >> but they'll be in like 44 time. It's

>> but they'll be in like 44 time. It's kind of crazy too. So if you try to

kind of crazy too. So if you try to throw it off and then it it gets weird.

throw it off and then it it gets weird. So yeah, just anyway. Sorry.

So yeah, just anyway. Sorry. >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> The other thing is that that women tend

>> The other thing is that that women tend to be much better about touching base,

to be much better about touching base, reaching out.

reaching out. >> Um yeah,

>> Um yeah, >> pinging people. I mean, men in general

>> pinging people. I mean, men in general are are I think they're bad at I I would

are are I think they're bad at I I would call it like the mechanics of

call it like the mechanics of friendship, right? Like it's

friendship, right? Like it's >> it's generally um you know, following up

>> it's generally um you know, following up with people, asking how they're doing,

with people, asking how they're doing, remembering birthdays, um

remembering birthdays, um >> bringing a gift to a wedding.

>> bringing a gift to a wedding. >> Bringing a gift to a wedding. Like it's

>> Bringing a gift to a wedding. Like it's just there's a lot of like kind of

just there's a lot of like kind of social conscientiousness stuff. And it's

social conscientiousness stuff. And it's funny because there's this has become a

funny because there's this has become a bit of a meme uh online of you know

bit of a meme uh online of you know there are a lot of uh women who who call

there are a lot of uh women who who call it mankeeping. Yeah. Where it's like

it mankeeping. Yeah. Where it's like they b it's basically girlfriends and

they b it's basically girlfriends and wives who have to run the man's

wives who have to run the man's >> social life and social calendar.

>> social life and social calendar. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Obviously there's a decent amount of

>> Obviously there's a decent amount of truth to that. It's actually

truth to that. It's actually interesting. Um if you look at rates of

interesting. Um if you look at rates of depression and suicide after divorce,

depression and suicide after divorce, men are like five times higher than

men are like five times higher than women. Yeah,

women. Yeah, >> generally speaking, after a divorce,

>> generally speaking, after a divorce, women bounce back pretty quickly. Uh men

women bounce back pretty quickly. Uh men bounce back extremely slowly. And I

bounce back extremely slowly. And I personally think this is one of the

personally think this is one of the biggest reasons is that

biggest reasons is that >> women the social life kind of defaults

>> women the social life kind of defaults to the woman's social life and the men

to the woman's social life and the men just kind of go along with it. It's

just kind of go along with it. It's funny because there's a lot of criticism

funny because there's a lot of criticism of men online at the moment about this

of men online at the moment about this and I I I feel like I see both sides of

and I I I feel like I see both sides of this. On the one hand, I I do think men

this. On the one hand, I I do think men kind of suck at this and and just need

kind of suck at this and and just need to get better.

to get better. >> You need to take some responsibility.

>> You need to take some responsibility. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, for sure. >> Just own it. Develop some basic skills.

>> Just own it. Develop some basic skills. Reach out to your guy friendss like

Reach out to your guy friendss like invite people to stuff.

invite people to stuff. >> Put birthdays on your calendar. Like,

>> Put birthdays on your calendar. Like, it's not

it's not >> it's not rocket science, right?

>> it's not rocket science, right? >> This is not rocket science. I And I

>> This is not rocket science. I And I think this might actually be a good good

think this might actually be a good good uh moment to to get into like some very

uh moment to to get into like some very basic tactical things. And these are

basic tactical things. And these are things that have helped me. And it's

things that have helped me. And it's funny, I actually have a guy friend

funny, I actually have a guy friend who's like he's like one of these very

who's like he's like one of these very organized people. He actually created a

organized people. He actually created a a CRM system for his friendships. Do you

a CRM system for his friendships. Do you know what a CRM system is? So it's like

know what a CRM system is? So it's like a customer management system. Uh like

a customer management system. Uh like he's a he's an e-commerce guy, but he

he's a he's an e-commerce guy, but he was like he realized that he was he was

was like he realized that he was he was losing touch with friends or or losing

losing touch with friends or or losing track of them. So he like literally

track of them. So he like literally created a notion dashboard for his

created a notion dashboard for his friendships.

friendships. >> Oh my god. and he created a CRM system

>> Oh my god. and he created a CRM system where basically it reminds him it like

where basically it reminds him it like if he hasn't seen uh spoken to somebody

if he hasn't seen uh spoken to somebody in like more than a month or two, it

in like more than a month or two, it like pings him, it sends him a

like pings him, it sends him a notification to like reach out to that

notification to like reach out to that person or invite them to to something.

person or invite them to to something. And it also he developed a system where

And it also he developed a system where it's like every week he has some sort of

it's like every week he has some sort of activity or event that he can invite

activity or event that he can invite people to.

people to. >> Honestly, I laughed about it too, but

>> Honestly, I laughed about it too, but when like after he explained it to me,

when like after he explained it to me, >> I I was jealous. I was like, "Dude, I

>> I I was jealous. I was like, "Dude, I would actually pay money for that to be

would actually pay money for that to be honest because

honest because >> especially if you have like a

>> especially if you have like a systematizer mind, right?"

systematizer mind, right?" >> Because it's it's and we'll get into my

>> Because it's it's and we'll get into my story in a little bit, but like I I

story in a little bit, but like I I think one of my problems is just like I

think one of my problems is just like I don't think about it

don't think about it >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> enough. I don't think about it until

>> enough. I don't think about it until it's too late. Yeah. It's like it's it's

it's too late. Yeah. It's like it's it's I only think about it after I realize

I only think about it after I realize like, "Oh,

like, "Oh, >> yeah. I haven't seen Jake in like two

>> yeah. I haven't seen Jake in like two months.

months. >> I wonder what that guy's doing." you

>> I wonder what that guy's doing." you know, like it just

know, like it just >> and then you go on to the next thing and

>> and then you go on to the next thing and then I'm like, "Oh [ __ ] I'm late for

then I'm like, "Oh [ __ ] I'm late for the podcast." You know, and we can laugh

the podcast." You know, and we can laugh about it, but there's a certain amount

about it, but there's a certain amount of envy there. And like look, I mean, he

of envy there. And like look, I mean, he told me he's like he said, "This is a

told me he's like he said, "This is a game changer." He's like, "My social

game changer." He's like, "My social life is 10 times better since I started

life is 10 times better since I started doing this."

doing this." >> I I think that's maybe too one of the

>> I I think that's maybe too one of the mindsets I might not have might have

mindsets I might not have might have left out was like don't leave the stop

left out was like don't leave the stop thinking that this just happens, right?

thinking that this just happens, right? It's not an organic process.

It's not an organic process. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Necessar. It can be. Some people are

>> Necessar. It can be. Some people are really good at that, but for a lot of

really good at that, but for a lot of people, no, it takes some effort and

people, no, it takes some effort and some work and some like some conscious,

some work and some like some conscious, >> you know, uh, effort that you have to

>> you know, uh, effort that you have to put in repeatedly. So, yeah.

put in repeatedly. So, yeah. >> The other thing I'll say about the

>> The other thing I'll say about the mankeeping thing,

mankeeping thing, >> and I say this as a married man with a

>> and I say this as a married man with a extremely extroverted wife,

extremely extroverted wife, >> I think two things, and again, I'm going

>> I think two things, and again, I'm going to make blanket statements. This does

to make blanket statements. This does not mean all women or all men.

not mean all women or all men. >> Just on average, you know, I I think in

>> Just on average, you know, I I think in general, uh, women tend to be a little

general, uh, women tend to be a little bit more extroverted. And I also think

bit more extroverted. And I also think women tend to

women tend to to care more about their social life.

to care more about their social life. >> Yes. Yeah.

>> Yes. Yeah. >> And like I don't mean that I'm not like

>> And like I don't mean that I'm not like trying to put down either gender. I

trying to put down either gender. I think that's just a fact. I think women

think that's just a fact. I think women um

um >> it's a it's a higher priority for a lot

>> it's a it's a higher priority for a lot of women more so than it is for men. And

of women more so than it is for men. And so I I think I imagine what a lot of men

so I I think I imagine what a lot of men experience is they're like, "Well, she's

experience is they're like, "Well, she's better at it and she cares more about

better at it and she cares more about it, so I'll just let I'll let her take

it, so I'll just let I'll let her take the lead on it and I'll just I'll I'll

the lead on it and I'll just I'll I'll I'll be support essentially."

I'll be support essentially." >> And and I can see how like this shows up

>> And and I can see how like this shows up in marriages and relationships a lot.

in marriages and relationships a lot. Like there's a lot of things if you

Like there's a lot of things if you remove the friendship aspect and like I

remove the friendship aspect and like I don't know replace it with um

don't know replace it with um so to use my marriage like and this can

so to use my marriage like and this can go either way right so my wife cares a

go either way right so my wife cares a lot more about cleaning and she's much

lot more about cleaning and she's much better at it right so guess who does

better at it right so guess who does most the cleaning in the house and now

most the cleaning in the house and now and in in one way you could look at that

and in in one way you could look at that and say that's totally unfair mark you

and say that's totally unfair mark you should be doing you should be pulling

should be doing you should be pulling your load yeah maybe or if you look at

your load yeah maybe or if you look at the relationship as a team and my wife

the relationship as a team and my wife and I each have our own talents and our

and I each have our own talents and our own things that we're good at that the

own things that we're good at that the other one's not. It makes sense to

other one's not. It makes sense to specialize. So like I'm very good with

specialize. So like I'm very good with numbers and finances and taxes.

numbers and finances and taxes. >> I also care a lot about finances and

>> I also care a lot about finances and numbers and taxes. She [ __ ] her palms

numbers and taxes. She [ __ ] her palms start sweating the second she opens

start sweating the second she opens >> the the bank website, right? So guess

>> the the bank website, right? So guess who does all the finances, deals with

who does all the finances, deals with all the insurance, does all of our

all the insurance, does all of our taxes?

taxes? >> I do. Yeah. And I I could get sit here

>> I do. Yeah. And I I could get sit here and get mad and be like, "That's not

and get mad and be like, "That's not fair. She should do 50% of that."

fair. She should do 50% of that." >> But no, that doesn't make sense. It's

>> But no, that doesn't make sense. It's like we're a team. She's good at this

like we're a team. She's good at this thing that I'm not good at. I'm good at

thing that I'm not good at. I'm good at this thing that she's not good at.

this thing that she's not good at. >> So, we should divide, you know, there's

>> So, we should divide, you know, there's division of labor exists for a reason.

division of labor exists for a reason. It's the same thing. It's like if my

It's the same thing. It's like if my wife and I started a business, it would

wife and I started a business, it would be insane to divide everything 50/50.

be insane to divide everything 50/50. Yeah. Like anybody who started a

Yeah. Like anybody who started a business, try dividing everything 50/50

business, try dividing everything 50/50 with your co-founder. that business is

with your co-founder. that business is going to fail within a month. Like the

going to fail within a month. Like the first thing you do when you start a

first thing you do when you start a business with somebody is you say,

business with somebody is you say, "Okay, what are you excellent at that

"Okay, what are you excellent at that I'm not and what am I excellent at that

I'm not and what am I excellent at that you're not?" Okay, let's go do those

you're not?" Okay, let's go do those things.

things. >> This is and and own that domain in in

>> This is and and own that domain in in the business. And I think to a certain

the business. And I think to a certain extent, relationships are like that. And

extent, relationships are like that. And I think through a combination of of

I think through a combination of of women just prioritizing it more, but

women just prioritizing it more, but also men just being bad at it and and

also men just being bad at it and and not taking responsibility, women tend to

not taking responsibility, women tend to end up owning the social domain. Um, and

end up owning the social domain. Um, and yeah, to a certain extent that might

yeah, to a certain extent that might that might be unfair. And I would say if

that might be unfair. And I would say if you're a woman listening to this and you

you're a woman listening to this and you you totally your husband is like or your

you totally your husband is like or your boyfriend is uh just socially completely

boyfriend is uh just socially completely lost without you, yeah, he should pick

lost without you, yeah, he should pick up some basic skills and maybe take a

up some basic skills and maybe take a little bit of ownership over it. But I I

little bit of ownership over it. But I I I I do think this idea that everything's

I I do think this idea that everything's 50/50 and that there should be balance

50/50 and that there should be balance in all things and both both people in

in all things and both both people in the relationship should own like be

the relationship should own like be responsible for everything in equal

responsible for everything in equal proportions. Not only is that

proportions. Not only is that unrealistic, but there there is also

unrealistic, but there there is also quite a bit of survey data showing that

quite a bit of survey data showing that relationships that try to divide every

relationships that try to divide every responsibility 50/50. They fail more

responsibility 50/50. They fail more often, they are less happy, they have

often, they are less happy, they have more problems. Just be realistic. Just

more problems. Just be realistic. Just like look at your partner, look at

like look at your partner, look at yourselves, figure out who's good at

yourselves, figure out who's good at what, who enjoys what, and be okay with

what, who enjoys what, and be okay with that. You know, it's not it's not going

that. You know, it's not it's not going to it's a lot of it's going to be 8020

to it's a lot of it's going to be 8020 in different different directions for

in different different directions for different things. Yeah.

different things. Yeah. >> Uh, can men and women be friends?

>> Uh, can men and women be friends? >> Ah,

>> Ah, >> this question comes up.

>> this question comes up. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> All the time.

>> All the time. >> Do you want to take a take a stab at it

>> Do you want to take a take a stab at it first?

first? >> I have a lot of female friends and I

>> I have a lot of female friends and I always have. So, I don't I've wrong with

always have. So, I don't I've wrong with you, Drew. What is wrong? Understood

you, Drew. What is wrong? Understood this one.

this one. >> Clearly, something is wrong with you.

>> Clearly, something is wrong with you. >> Do you see there's all these guys out

>> Do you see there's all these guys out there who are just like, you're friends

there who are just like, you're friends with women? And I'm like, what the I

with women? And I'm like, what the I don't I you tell me what's what the

don't I you tell me what's what the issue is here because I not only like

issue is here because I not only like like I was well like I was saying I have

like I was well like I was saying I have more like direct relationships with with

more like direct relationships with with my female friends too. Like more of a

my female friends too. Like more of a one-on-one whereas with my male friends

one-on-one whereas with my male friends we kind of have this group that we're

we kind of have this group that we're typically in and there's some you know

typically in and there's some you know overlap with other groups and all that.

overlap with other groups and all that. Sure.

Sure. >> But like the female relationships I

>> But like the female relationships I have, they're not like I don't like dump

have, they're not like I don't like dump things on them necessarily or they don't

things on them necessarily or they don't use I don't use them as like an

use I don't use them as like an emotional outlet or anything like that.

emotional outlet or anything like that. It's just that I just see them as

It's just that I just see them as friends and so

friends and so >> tell me what the big fuss is about.

>> tell me what the big fuss is about. Seriously,

Seriously, >> I think there's two reasons why people

>> I think there's two reasons why people struggle with this.

struggle with this. >> So, first of all, the answer is yes. Men

>> So, first of all, the answer is yes. Men and women can totally be friends, but I

and women can totally be friends, but I do think it it there are complications.

do think it it there are complications. Obviously, there are complications that

Obviously, there are complications that don't exist in

don't exist in >> Okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I get that.

>> Okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I get that. >> Like, it's and and like obviously it's

>> Like, it's and and like obviously it's the elephant in the room there. there's

the elephant in the room there. there's potentially sexual attraction

potentially sexual attraction >> with one or both people, right? So

>> with one or both people, right? So that's that's the elephant in the room.

that's that's the elephant in the room. That's what complicates things. Uh and I

That's what complicates things. Uh and I think it's there's pretty clear reasons

think it's there's pretty clear reasons why. So first of all, I think men men

why. So first of all, I think men men and women can be friends most easily if

and women can be friends most easily if there is no sexual romantic attraction

there is no sexual romantic attraction between them. Right.

between them. Right. >> Yeah. Or at least no opportunity for

>> Yeah. Or at least no opportunity for you. like you know like I mean a lot of

you. like you know like I mean a lot of my female friends either are married um

my female friends either are married um have have partners of their own or you

have have partners of their own or you know they're lesbians too like you know

know they're lesbians too like you know like so it doesn't matter but yeah go on

like so it doesn't matter but yeah go on >> um so I think by removing the the the

>> um so I think by removing the the the attraction

attraction >> that simplifies it

>> that simplifies it >> um I think where a lot of people get

>> um I think where a lot of people get stumped on this is because they are

stumped on this is because they are friends with somebody that they're

friends with somebody that they're attracted to

attracted to >> and they kind of wish it was something

>> and they kind of wish it was something more.

more. >> Yeah. And as soon as you get into that,

>> Yeah. And as soon as you get into that, it becomes transactional.

it becomes transactional. >> I've had these two. Yes. Yeah. So to

>> I've had these two. Yes. Yeah. So to come back to Aristotle's framework, like

come back to Aristotle's framework, like I would argue it's impossible to be

I would argue it's impossible to be friends with somebody you are like as

friends with somebody you are like as soon as you become sexually and

soon as you become sexually and romantically interested in them.

romantically interested in them. >> Uh there is some sort of inequality that

>> Uh there is some sort of inequality that is introduced into the friendship

is introduced into the friendship >> and

>> and >> and then by nature it becomes

>> and then by nature it becomes transactional. And as we're going to get

transactional. And as we're going to get to in the next section, transactional

to in the next section, transactional friendships often become toxic. Not

friendships often become toxic. Not always,

always, >> but often. And

>> but often. And >> uh so I I can see why people have been

>> uh so I I can see why people have been burned by this before,

burned by this before, >> especially. I mean, it's a trope among

>> especially. I mean, it's a trope among young men, you know, the friend zone,

young men, you know, the friend zone, the dreaded friend zone. It's like the

the dreaded friend zone. It's like the the girl you have a crush on.

the girl you have a crush on. >> Been there, dude.

>> Been there, dude. >> We've all been there, man. Uh you know,

>> We've all been there, man. Uh you know, you become her best friend and then for

you become her best friend and then for years you just kind of hang around

years you just kind of hang around hoping that one day she's

hoping that one day she's >> she's going to wake up and like realize

>> she's going to wake up and like realize you were the one all along. Uh, it's I

you were the one all along. Uh, it's I find that a large percentage of of

find that a large percentage of of people, both men and women, who ask this

people, both men and women, who ask this question, it's it's the people who were

question, it's it's the people who were friend-zoned. It's it's the it's the

friend-zoned. It's it's the it's the young man or the young woman who has

young man or the young woman who has been friends with the person that

been friends with the person that they're they're in love with for years

they're they're in love with for years and years and years and they feel

and years and years and they feel overlooked and they feel taken for

overlooked and they feel taken for granted and they feel like they've like

granted and they feel like they've like given themselves to this friend quote

given themselves to this friend quote unquote um hoping to get something else

unquote um hoping to get something else in return

in return >> but not realizing that it was

>> but not realizing that it was transactional.

transactional. >> That's not a friendship.

>> That's not a friendship. >> It's not a friendship.

>> It's not a friendship. >> That's not a friendship.

>> That's not a friendship. >> That is not a friendship. The friend

>> That is not a friendship. The friend zone is not a friendship. Interestingly,

zone is not a friendship. Interestingly, ironically, like if you look at the data

ironically, like if you look at the data of like how people meet and what uh

of like how people meet and what uh predicts the greatest long-term

predicts the greatest long-term relationship success,

relationship success, >> if the two people were friends before

>> if the two people were friends before they started dating,

they started dating, >> that is like that is like the highest

>> that is like that is like the highest predictor of relationship success.

predictor of relationship success. >> So, okay, how does that work? because

>> So, okay, how does that work? because like you're not attracted to each other

like you're not attracted to each other at first and then you are or like there

at first and then you are or like there is some mild attraction and then not

is some mild attraction and then not really and you're like whatever and then

really and you're like whatever and then you become more attracted like what I

you become more attracted like what I >> I think I think in most cases what I

>> I think I think in most cases what I would have guess is that it it's kind of

would have guess is that it it's kind of like you said that there's no

like you said that there's no opportunity right so

opportunity right so >> okay like they were dating somebody else

>> okay like they were dating somebody else >> yeah and this is anecdotal but like just

>> yeah and this is anecdotal but like just by all the people that I've known in my

by all the people that I've known in my life and all the

life and all the >> fans and and a and people I've who have

>> fans and and a and people I've who have reached out to me and talked to me

reached out to me and talked to me >> generally the I think the way it works

>> generally the I think the way it works is like, you know, it was like a work

is like, you know, it was like a work friend who uh had a boyfriend or a

friend who uh had a boyfriend or a girlfriend for years and then they moved

girlfriend for years and then they moved to another office and you stopped seeing

to another office and you stopped seeing them or whatever. Um it's like the Jim

them or whatever. Um it's like the Jim and Pam situation in the office, right?

and Pam situation in the office, right? Like I think that's like a pretty

Like I think that's like a pretty prototypical they were friends first and

prototypical they were friends first and then they

then they >> they become a very successful

>> they become a very successful relationship. So there's like there's

relationship. So there's like there's some sort of blocker or lack of

some sort of blocker or lack of opportunity. Maybe they live in a

opportunity. Maybe they live in a different city. Um, but you see them for

different city. Um, but you see them for whatever reason, you see them once or

whatever reason, you see them once or twice a year and every time you see

twice a year and every time you see them, you're like, "Wow, I really like

them, you're like, "Wow, I really like this person." So, I think there's a lot

this person." So, I think there's a lot of that going on. people do change, you

of that going on. people do change, you know, not not to not to give hope to all

know, not not to not to give hope to all the friend-zoned listeners out there,

the friend-zoned listeners out there, but like there are

but like there are it's rare, but there are situations

it's rare, but there are situations where, you know, you're friend-zoned for

where, you know, you're friend-zoned for a long time, a few years go by, maybe

a long time, a few years go by, maybe you get jacked, maybe you get your [ __ ]

you get jacked, maybe you get your [ __ ] figured out, maybe you go to therapy,

figured out, maybe you go to therapy, you know, maybe the person you're in

you know, maybe the person you're in love with gets their heart broken and

love with gets their heart broken and they figure some of their [ __ ] out. Like

they figure some of their [ __ ] out. Like people do change over time and so I do

people do change over time and so I do think some people do evolve into a

think some people do evolve into a relationship.

relationship. >> When Harry met Sally, right? Like

>> When Harry met Sally, right? Like >> Yeah. Like it's not the norm, but

>> Yeah. Like it's not the norm, but >> and and I think it's one of those things

>> and and I think it's one of those things like you can't you can't wait around

like you can't you can't wait around holding out on that. Like the irony with

holding out on that. Like the irony with the friend zone is that

the friend zone is that >> the only way to get out of it is to is

>> the only way to get out of it is to is to give up. Like as soon as if you get

to give up. Like as soon as if you get like the only way that person is ever

like the only way that person is ever going to look at you seriously as a

going to look at you seriously as a potential partner is when you stop

potential partner is when you stop trying to make them look at you as a

trying to make them look at you as a potential partner.

potential partner. >> Moved on and Yeah. Yeah. Well,

>> Moved on and Yeah. Yeah. Well, ironically that is very ironic.

ironically that is very ironic. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Cool. I would say even

>> Cool. I would say even >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Speaking from experience, but yeah.

>> Speaking from experience, but yeah. >> Yeah. You know, the funny thing that

>> Yeah. You know, the funny thing that complicates this though is that uh there

complicates this though is that uh there is some research that shows that men

is some research that shows that men tend to vastly overestimate

tend to vastly overestimate how attracted a woman is to them.

how attracted a woman is to them. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> I do think that a lot of these

>> I do think that a lot of these friend-zone situations

friend-zone situations >> are basically due to oblivious think

>> are basically due to oblivious think like, "Yeah, she's totally into me."

like, "Yeah, she's totally into me." Like, "This is totally going to happen."

Like, "This is totally going to happen." And meanwhile, like the woman's like,

And meanwhile, like the woman's like, "Oh, he's such a good friend."

"Oh, he's such a good friend." >> But the other side of that is true, too,

>> But the other side of that is true, too, right? The women underestimate. Yes.

right? The women underestimate. Yes. They're like, "Oh, he's just being

They're like, "Oh, he's just being friendly. He's into you."

friendly. He's into you." >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> And there's a weird like evolutionary

>> And there's a weird like evolutionary explanation you can get into. It's more

explanation you can get into. It's more costly if a man doesn't take the

costly if a man doesn't take the opportunity and it's more costly for a

opportunity and it's more costly for a woman to take the opportunity and all

woman to take the opportunity and all that. But yeah,

that. But yeah, >> toxic friendships are I, you know, we're

>> toxic friendships are I, you know, we're not going to go super deep into this

not going to go super deep into this because I think there's, you know, the

because I think there's, you know, the cousin of this is toxic romantic

cousin of this is toxic romantic relationships, which we will probably

relationships, which we will probably hit and cover on multiple episodes uh at

hit and cover on multiple episodes uh at some point. But I do think it's worth

some point. But I do think it's worth going over like you can have unhealthy

going over like you can have unhealthy friendships. You can have bad dynamics

friendships. You can have bad dynamics within friendships. Um, the irony with

within friendships. Um, the irony with toxic friendships is that I think they

toxic friendships is that I think they they tend to start with a bang. Toxic

they tend to start with a bang. Toxic friendships are fundamentally built on

friendships are fundamentally built on insecurity. And insecure people are

insecurity. And insecure people are secretly deep down looking for somebody

secretly deep down looking for somebody to save them or show them that they're

to save them or show them that they're okay. And when they find somebody that

okay. And when they find somebody that they believe can do that for them, it is

they believe can do that for them, it is a very emotionally intense experience.

a very emotionally intense experience. Uh and so generally speaking, just as

Uh and so generally speaking, just as with romantic relationships, uh the

with romantic relationships, uh the friendships that start very intense and

friendships that start very intense and uh get close extremely fast

uh get close extremely fast >> often

>> often >> blow up. So let's talk about what's

>> blow up. So let's talk about what's happening

happening >> psychologically speaking uh from a

>> psychologically speaking uh from a psycho like a psychonamic perspective.

psycho like a psychonamic perspective. Basically, you have two individuals.

Basically, you have two individuals. They're very insecure. they see

They're very insecure. they see themselves as somehow unworthy or

themselves as somehow unworthy or inferior. Um and and when you are an

inferior. Um and and when you are an insecure person, you are constantly

insecure person, you are constantly measuring yourself uh against others.

measuring yourself uh against others. And the way you're choosing to measure

And the way you're choosing to measure yourself, it really comes down to your

yourself, it really comes down to your personal values or what you personally

personal values or what you personally see as a status indicator or uh what a

see as a status indicator or uh what a worthwhile person is. You know, it could

worthwhile person is. You know, it could be looks, it could be money, it could be

be looks, it could be money, it could be popularity, it could be fame, it could

popularity, it could be fame, it could be whatever. Being accepted by a certain

be whatever. Being accepted by a certain group. If you are an insecure person,

group. If you are an insecure person, you are constantly in this status game.

you are constantly in this status game. Everywhere you go, everybody you talk

Everywhere you go, everybody you talk to, you're playing the status game with

to, you're playing the status game with yourself.

yourself. Now, when two insecure people come

Now, when two insecure people come together,

together, that spark emerges because they see the

that spark emerges because they see the other person as a solution to their

other person as a solution to their status game. So, there's kind of this

status game. So, there's kind of this complimentary like, oh, this person

complimentary like, oh, this person makes me feel worthy and worthwhile. I

makes me feel worthy and worthwhile. I should spend more time with them. And

should spend more time with them. And then the other person feels that way,

then the other person feels that way, too. And so it's just this like intense

too. And so it's just this like intense magnetism that happens and brings them

magnetism that happens and brings them together. Now this can happen I think

together. Now this can happen I think this can kind of happen in two

this can kind of happen in two configurations. One configuration is

configurations. One configuration is that uh two people have different but

that uh two people have different but complimentary uh insecurities. You know

complimentary uh insecurities. You know maybe let's say we take two guy friends

maybe let's say we take two guy friends right maybe one is the really athletic

right maybe one is the really athletic cool jock that all the girls are into

cool jock that all the girls are into and then one is the super brainiac nerd

and then one is the super brainiac nerd that uh aces every test and can figure

that uh aces every test and can figure everything out, right? And it's like

everything out, right? And it's like there's a synergy there of like the jock

there's a synergy there of like the jock feels really dumb and is insecure about

feels really dumb and is insecure about his, you know, ability to get into

his, you know, ability to get into college or whatever. And then the nerd

college or whatever. And then the nerd is like, "Wow, no girl will ever talk to

is like, "Wow, no girl will ever talk to me, but when I hang out hang around this

me, but when I hang out hang around this guy, I feel cool." And um and so

guy, I feel cool." And um and so sometimes you'll see these kind of diads

sometimes you'll see these kind of diads play out where it's two friends kind of

play out where it's two friends kind of compensate for each other's flaws or

compensate for each other's flaws or insecurities. And I would say that's

insecurities. And I would say that's probably the uh less unhealthy version

probably the uh less unhealthy version of a toxic friendship because it's

of a toxic friendship because it's essentially just a very transactional

essentially just a very transactional friendship. Um each person is getting

friendship. Um each person is getting something out of the friendship, out of

something out of the friendship, out of the relationship and as long as they

the relationship and as long as they continue to get that thing out of it,

continue to get that thing out of it, it's probably going to be okay. Uh where

it's probably going to be okay. Uh where things get dicey is when well people's

things get dicey is when well people's insecurities can start to get stoked.

insecurities can start to get stoked. Like

Like >> when you're in a friendship like that,

>> when you're in a friendship like that, you you're probably very aware of the

you you're probably very aware of the dynamic and so you're probably very

dynamic and so you're probably very aware of how sensitive the other person

aware of how sensitive the other person is uh to the situation, right? So if

is uh to the situation, right? So if you're like the the tall handsome jock

you're like the the tall handsome jock in that in that friendship, anytime you

in that in that friendship, anytime you get pissed at your buddy, you know

get pissed at your buddy, you know exactly where it's going to hurt him

exactly where it's going to hurt him most.

most. >> You know his buttons. Yeah.

>> You know his buttons. Yeah. >> Yes. You know exactly how to punish him

>> Yes. You know exactly how to punish him and you know exactly where he's

and you know exactly where he's insecure.

insecure. And chances are that's going to come out

And chances are that's going to come out at some point. And vice versa, if

at some point. And vice versa, if you're, you know, say the smart,

you're, you know, say the smart, successful nerd, you know exactly where

successful nerd, you know exactly where your buddy's insecurities are as well.

your buddy's insecurities are as well. So

So >> you just get a lot of ugliness in

>> you just get a lot of ugliness in friendships like this.

friendships like this. >> I think most of these sorts of

>> I think most of these sorts of friendships probably just have a falling

friendships probably just have a falling out at some point, a big fight over

out at some point, a big fight over something dumb. Um, I know I definitely

something dumb. Um, I know I definitely had some male friendships that were like

had some male friendships that were like this and pretty much all of them ended

this and pretty much all of them ended over a stupid fight over something or

over a stupid fight over something or other over a a a trip we were supposed

other over a a a trip we were supposed to take or a party we were supposed to

to take or a party we were supposed to throw or a girl that I dated and he

throw or a girl that I dated and he wanted to date or like whatever. You

wanted to date or like whatever. You know, it's it's usually something like

know, it's it's usually something like that that kind of triggers it to fall

that that kind of triggers it to fall apart. The second type of toxic

apart. The second type of toxic friendship is the even less healthy

friendship is the even less healthy friendship, which I would just call it

friendship, which I would just call it flatout the codependent friendship,

flatout the codependent friendship, where essentially you have you have two

where essentially you have you have two people. You have one person who, let's

people. You have one person who, let's say, is uh full of themselves and needs

say, is uh full of themselves and needs constant validation and approval and

constant validation and approval and needs to be reminded of how great they

needs to be reminded of how great they are all the time. And then you have a

are all the time. And then you have a second person who feels terrible about

second person who feels terrible about themselves. And one way that they get to

themselves. And one way that they get to kind of like live vicariously through

kind of like live vicariously through the first insecure person by constantly

the first insecure person by constantly following them around and telling them

following them around and telling them how great they are, how amazing they

how great they are, how amazing they are, how much they wish they were like

are, how much they wish they were like them. And so you you get a situation

them. And so you you get a situation where it's like, you know, one person

where it's like, you know, one person needs to always feel superior and then

needs to always feel superior and then one person, however poorly the first

one person, however poorly the first friend treats them, they feel like they

friend treats them, they feel like they deserve it on some level.

deserve it on some level. >> Going back to like what we talked about

>> Going back to like what we talked about earlier about kind of the balance there

earlier about kind of the balance there though too. It's like I I think there

though too. It's like I I think there was a word you said in the you said

was a word you said in the you said always. It's always that way and there's

always. It's always that way and there's an unbalance to it because of course you

an unbalance to it because of course you want to help your friend out when they

want to help your friend out when they need help.

need help. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Uh but sometimes you need to be helped

>> Uh but sometimes you need to be helped as well. This is one thing like I've

as well. This is one thing like I've always tried to be the helper and so I

always tried to be the helper and so I can kind of weigh into this territory

can kind of weigh into this territory but I I'm aware of it and and I call it

but I I'm aware of it and and I call it out or like be very aware of it when it

out or like be very aware of it when it does happen. Yeah.

does happen. Yeah. >> Um and then there's been times more

>> Um and then there's been times more recently too now I'm like okay I need

recently too now I'm like okay I need help from the same people and it

help from the same people and it balances out. So yeah. Yeah. Just wanted

balances out. So yeah. Yeah. Just wanted to point that out. You use the use the

to point that out. You use the use the word always. It's when it's always

word always. It's when it's always lopsided like that. There's always

lopsided like that. There's always there's a there's a savior and somebody

there's a there's a savior and somebody who needs to be saved, right?

who needs to be saved, right? >> That's the problem. Yeah. I would say

>> That's the problem. Yeah. I would say the first type of toxic friendship, the

the first type of toxic friendship, the issue is more it's a transactional

issue is more it's a transactional relationship, but it's not transactional

relationship, but it's not transactional over something superficial. It's

over something superficial. It's transactional over it's trying to be a

transactional over it's trying to be a virtuous friendship, right? It's like, I

virtuous friendship, right? It's like, I admire you. Uh I wish I was more like

admire you. Uh I wish I was more like you. So, but instead of just admiring

you. So, but instead of just admiring you in a vacuum, I'm going to basically

you in a vacuum, I'm going to basically follow you around and envy you and hope

follow you around and envy you and hope that some of you rubs off on me and vice

that some of you rubs off on me and vice versa. And like, so it it becomes

versa. And like, so it it becomes transactional at a self-esteem level.

transactional at a self-esteem level. And that's that's just a recipe for

And that's that's just a recipe for disaster because it's like the minute

disaster because it's like the minute your friend I mean it works fine when

your friend I mean it works fine when both friends are giving each other

both friends are giving each other validation and and helping each other

validation and and helping each other out. But like if you build your

out. But like if you build your self-esteem by being around your friend,

self-esteem by being around your friend, the minute your friend checks out or

the minute your friend checks out or gets mad at you or wants to maybe

gets mad at you or wants to maybe manipulate you or control you or put

manipulate you or control you or put conditions on on something in the

conditions on on something in the friendship, uh it's going to get very

friendship, uh it's going to get very very ugly very quickly. The second

very ugly very quickly. The second dynamic is even worse in that it is just

dynamic is even worse in that it is just it's a unidirectional friendship at all

it's a unidirectional friendship at all times. It is one person is always needs

times. It is one person is always needs more attention and validation and one

more attention and validation and one person is always giving more attention

person is always giving more attention and validation. And the irony like if

and validation. And the irony like if you're a healthy person you are probably

you're a healthy person you are probably hearing this and you're like why would

hearing this and you're like why would anybody stay in a friendship like that?

anybody stay in a friendship like that? >> Yeah. Yeah. But the problem is is that

>> Yeah. Yeah. But the problem is is that if you're a person who feels really

if you're a person who feels really shitty about yourself, you maybe you

shitty about yourself, you maybe you haven't had many friends throughout your

haven't had many friends throughout your life, um you have very low self-esteem,

life, um you have very low self-esteem, you don't see why anybody would like you

you don't see why anybody would like you or hang out with you,

or hang out with you, >> that unidirectional that that constant

>> that unidirectional that that constant giving to to the friend, it feels like

giving to to the friend, it feels like an upgrade over loneliness,

an upgrade over loneliness, >> right?

>> right? >> Because at least you're needed for

>> Because at least you're needed for something. And this plays out on a much

something. And this plays out on a much more dramatic scale at the romantic

more dramatic scale at the romantic relationship level where you see a lot

relationship level where you see a lot of people who will get into bad romantic

of people who will get into bad romantic relationships, codependent romantic

relationships, codependent romantic relationships, sometimes even abusive

relationships, sometimes even abusive romantic relationships simply because

romantic relationships simply because they feel so bad about themselves that

they feel so bad about themselves that they're like, "Well, I'd rather have a

they're like, "Well, I'd rather have a shitty toxic relationship than no

shitty toxic relationship than no relationship at all because at least

relationship at all because at least somebody wants me around for some

somebody wants me around for some reason."

reason." >> It's really [ __ ] dark and depressing

>> It's really [ __ ] dark and depressing when you put it that way. Yeah. I'm

when you put it that way. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know what to say to that.

like, I don't know what to say to that. Because toxic friendships are

Because toxic friendships are inherently transactional, they often

inherently transactional, they often become very competitive. So you what you

become very competitive. So you what you see happen is a a power struggle will

see happen is a a power struggle will emerge within the friendship. You'll

emerge within the friendship. You'll start getting these arguments over who

start getting these arguments over who did more for the other person, who is

did more for the other person, who is liked more by other people, who invited

liked more by other people, who invited who to more parties, who introduced who

who to more parties, who introduced who to their friends, who uh helped who the

to their friends, who uh helped who the most at school. Like, it's you start

most at school. Like, it's you start getting into these scorecard situations

getting into these scorecard situations of like, no, you owe me.

of like, no, you owe me. >> And the fact that that first of all,

>> And the fact that that first of all, that conversation shouldn't even exist

that conversation shouldn't even exist in a healthy friendship. that

in a healthy friendship. that conversation doesn't even exist

conversation doesn't even exist >> any relationship. Yeah.

>> any relationship. Yeah. >> Yeah. But second of all, the fact that

>> Yeah. But second of all, the fact that that conversation is even happening, the

that conversation is even happening, the fact that both people see the friendship

fact that both people see the friendship in that way

in that way >> uh tells you right off the bat that it

>> uh tells you right off the bat that it is a fundamentally transactional

is a fundamentally transactional relationship that there's not any

relationship that there's not any genuine admiration going on.

genuine admiration going on. >> It's likely some mix of uh envy and

>> It's likely some mix of uh envy and >> desperation that keeps the two people

>> desperation that keeps the two people together. If if there's one thing that I

together. If if there's one thing that I really do know about friendship is that

really do know about friendship is that that scorec card is the most toxic thing

that scorec card is the most toxic thing you can you cannot

you can you cannot >> you you you cannot keep score.

>> you you you cannot keep score. >> Again, it's a subjective thing too. Like

>> Again, it's a subjective thing too. Like we talked about earlier, the the balance

we talked about earlier, the the balance in a relationship is always subjective.

in a relationship is always subjective. But the scorekeeping thing where you're

But the scorekeeping thing where you're trying to objectify it just amplifies

trying to objectify it just amplifies the the toxicity to agree that it's not

the the toxicity to agree that it's not you're just not going to recover from

you're just not going to recover from that. You can't There's a saying too in

that. You can't There's a saying too in business and I'm sorry because later I'm

business and I'm sorry because later I'm gonna say why you shouldn't treat your

gonna say why you shouldn't treat your friendships like a business but yeah uh

friendships like a business but yeah uh there's a saying that you know you're

there's a saying that you know you're never going to capture all the value

never going to capture all the value that you create.

that you create. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Like Mark you've given away how

>> Right. Like Mark you've given away how many

many >> newsletters over the years? How many

>> newsletters over the years? How many >> hundreds thousands

>> hundreds thousands >> ebooks? We put out ebooks all the time

>> ebooks? We put out ebooks all the time now and hundreds of pages.

now and hundreds of pages. >> We've we've literally published advice

>> We've we've literally published advice to millions of people.

to millions of people. >> You will never capture quote unquote

>> You will never capture quote unquote capture all the value that you create

capture all the value that you create especially in a friendship. It just just

especially in a friendship. It just just drop the scorecard. Yes,

drop the scorecard. Yes, >> there's no there's no the balance just

>> there's no there's no the balance just isn't ever going to be there the way you

isn't ever going to be there the way you think it should be if if that's the way

think it should be if if that's the way you think. So, yeah,

you think. So, yeah, >> coincidentally, I I do think

>> coincidentally, I I do think >> dropping the scorecard is probably the

>> dropping the scorecard is probably the easiest and first step to breaking out

easiest and first step to breaking out of a toxic friendship.

of a toxic friendship. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Easiest to notice, too. Yeah.

>> Easiest to notice, too. Yeah. >> Yes. It's the easiest to notice and it's

>> Yes. It's the easiest to notice and it's probably the easiest to stop doing.

probably the easiest to stop doing. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So, it's funny, and this is true with

>> So, it's funny, and this is true with toxic romantic relationships as well.

toxic romantic relationships as well. Generally speaking, if you stop the

Generally speaking, if you stop the dynamic and set up a boundary, the

dynamic and set up a boundary, the relationship will unravel itself. And

relationship will unravel itself. And it's it's actually pretty crazy how

it's it's actually pretty crazy how quickly it happens. Like it like the

quickly it happens. Like it like the second if you're like, let's say we're

second if you're like, let's say we're in a stupid argument over, I don't know,

in a stupid argument over, I don't know, some scorecard situation. The second one

some scorecard situation. The second one of us is like, "You know what, dude? It

of us is like, "You know what, dude? It doesn't matter. I'm just happy we're

doesn't matter. I'm just happy we're friends."

friends." >> The other person like

>> The other person like doesn't know what to do anymore. And and

doesn't know what to do anymore. And and it's like, wait, wait a second. I can't

it's like, wait, wait a second. I can't like pull my lovers and get what I want

like pull my lovers and get what I want out of you.

out of you. >> You're not feeding me.

>> You're not feeding me. >> You're not feeding. You're not

>> You're not feeding. You're not validating me. You're not giving me the

validating me. You're not giving me the thing that I was here for.

thing that I was here for. >> Nine times out of 10, they they leave on

>> Nine times out of 10, they they leave on their own. It's just the friendship kind

their own. It's just the friendship kind of dies after that. And this is this is

of dies after that. And this is this is the big difference I would say uh

the big difference I would say uh between toxic friendships and toxic

between toxic friendships and toxic romantic relationships and then toxic

romantic relationships and then toxic toxic family relationships because in

toxic family relationships because in both romantic and family relationships

both romantic and family relationships you have a very deep emotional

you have a very deep emotional investment with the person where even

investment with the person where even when you do stop the scorecard and stop

when you do stop the scorecard and stop the drama and stop the games,

the drama and stop the games, >> it's extremely hard to let go. Yeah. And

>> it's extremely hard to let go. Yeah. And and so there's this constant undertoe

and so there's this constant undertoe pulling you back into the drama because

pulling you back into the drama because you you still deeply care about this

you you still deeply care about this person and you really want them to to do

person and you really want them to to do well and be happy and you really love

well and be happy and you really love them and you really want this to work.

them and you really want this to work. >> So you find yourself like falling back

>> So you find yourself like falling back into it over and over again. I think

into it over and over again. I think generally with toxic friendships

generally with toxic friendships because friendships are and I don't mean

because friendships are and I don't mean this in a in a bad way, friendships are

this in a in a bad way, friendships are more expendable. they're more

more expendable. they're more replaceable.

replaceable. >> Generally speaking, as soon as you stop

>> Generally speaking, as soon as you stop the toxic dynamic, the friendship just

the toxic dynamic, the friendship just kind of falls apart. I'd say nine times

kind of falls apart. I'd say nine times out of 10, the only exception is if the

out of 10, the only exception is if the friend also notices how [ __ ] up the

friend also notices how [ __ ] up the situation is

situation is >> and the both the two of you can kind of

>> and the both the two of you can kind of address it together. But, uh, I would

address it together. But, uh, I would guess that that's like the rare minority

guess that that's like the rare minority of situations.

of situations. >> There's a little nugget in there, too,

>> There's a little nugget in there, too, if you're trying to make friends. Going

if you're trying to make friends. Going back to the make friends thing is the

back to the make friends thing is the scorecard. If you if you show up to

scorecard. If you if you show up to places and you're like, I did this,

places and you're like, I did this, this, and this, therefore, this person

this, and this, therefore, this person should react in this way. When you're

should react in this way. When you're meeting people,

meeting people, >> that right there is the basis for a

>> that right there is the basis for a toxic relationship. So, just stop it

toxic relationship. So, just stop it right there. Yeah. To begin with.

right there. Yeah. To begin with. >> Yeah. I mean, the scorecard thing is is

>> Yeah. I mean, the scorecard thing is is really just it's a nice red flag for

really just it's a nice red flag for every like

every like >> anytime I I I I met a guy a while ago um

>> anytime I I I I met a guy a while ago um who like I forget what happened. Anyway,

who like I forget what happened. Anyway, I was like doing some crazy work trip or

I was like doing some crazy work trip or something

something >> and uh

>> and uh >> he kind of like he texted me a few times

>> he kind of like he texted me a few times and I didn't respond

and I didn't respond >> and then he like sent like a snide

>> and then he like sent like a snide comment about like, "Well, I guess you

comment about like, "Well, I guess you you're too cool to respond to my" and

you're too cool to respond to my" and I'm like, "Okay, we're done." You know,

I'm like, "Okay, we're done." You know, like this is over.

like this is over. >> I'm just dude, I'm 40. I don't have time

>> I'm just dude, I'm 40. I don't have time for this [ __ ]

for this [ __ ] >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So, yeah, opting out of the the the

>> So, yeah, opting out of the the the scorecards, the competitive dynamic, the

scorecards, the competitive dynamic, the status game is probably the first step.

status game is probably the first step. I would say opting out of the drama. Um

I would say opting out of the drama. Um a lot of times what happens in these

a lot of times what happens in these sorts of friendships is that the friends

sorts of friendships is that the friends will get entangled in each other's

will get entangled in each other's drama and messy life, you know. So it's

drama and messy life, you know. So it's um you're you're dating your friend's

um you're you're dating your friend's sister's best friend and they live

sister's best friend and they live together and you have to see them all

together and you have to see them all the time and oh and you're sharing a car

the time and oh and you're sharing a car with them. Like there's a because

with them. Like there's a because there's such a lack of boundaries and

there's such a lack of boundaries and toxic friendships. Um there's a lot of

toxic friendships. Um there's a lot of kind of material world things get

kind of material world things get intermingled.

intermingled. >> People share living spaces, they share

>> People share living spaces, they share expenses, they give each other rides to

expenses, they give each other rides to places, they end up working together.

places, they end up working together. >> Um and so there's the just a very

>> Um and so there's the just a very sometimes there's a very messy

sometimes there's a very messy disentanglement that has to happen like

disentanglement that has to happen like that can be a very awkward and difficult

that can be a very awkward and difficult thing to go through. Um we are planning

thing to go through. Um we are planning to do an episode on boundaries soon. I

to do an episode on boundaries soon. I think this is where boundaries

think this is where boundaries really shine is just knowing

really shine is just knowing where to draw the line and and how to

where to draw the line and and how to express that line and say, "Look, like

express that line and say, "Look, like I'm willing to help you with this, but

I'm willing to help you with this, but like anything past this threshold,

like anything past this threshold, you're on your own." And then being able

you're on your own." And then being able to stick to that is is huge. And then

to stick to that is is huge. And then obviously it's like if this person is

obviously it's like if this person is not not respecting your boundaries, not

not not respecting your boundaries, not dropping the scorecard, continues to try

dropping the scorecard, continues to try to manipulate you and create drama with

to manipulate you and create drama with you, um just opt out of the friendship

you, um just opt out of the friendship entirely, right?

entirely, right? >> You know, we we joked earlier about it

>> You know, we we joked earlier about it being easier than ever to go somebody.

being easier than ever to go somebody. Uh it is easier than ever to go

Uh it is easier than ever to go somebody. So,

somebody. So, >> I mean, if you need to need to drop

>> I mean, if you need to need to drop somebody, you can. Um in some ways, it

somebody, you can. Um in some ways, it might even be too easy. But

might even be too easy. But >> I mean, I I think the the takeaway here

>> I mean, I I think the the takeaway here is is just that toxic relationships are

is is just that toxic relationships are inherently unstable and they are

inherently unstable and they are short-term fixes for what are deep

short-term fixes for what are deep personal emotional wounds. Um we did an

personal emotional wounds. Um we did an episode a couple months ago on shame. Uh

episode a couple months ago on shame. Uh generally people full of a lot of shame

generally people full of a lot of shame fall find themselves in lots of toxic

fall find themselves in lots of toxic relationships, friendships included. It

relationships, friendships included. It is one of those things where you have to

is one of those things where you have to kind of get your own [ __ ] sorted first

kind of get your own [ __ ] sorted first before you come back to to a friendship.

before you come back to to a friendship. And again, interestingly, like the

And again, interestingly, like the people that you will attract in the

people that you will attract in the world are generally have a level of

world are generally have a level of security and self- assuredness that is

security and self- assuredness that is proportional to yourself. And so the the

proportional to yourself. And so the the more right you get with yourself, the

more right you get with yourself, the more confident you get with yourself,

more confident you get with yourself, the more secure you are with yourself,

the more secure you are with yourself, uh the more you will just kind of

uh the more you will just kind of naturally filter out a lot of the

naturally filter out a lot of the insecure dramatic people and you'll

insecure dramatic people and you'll filter in uh a lot of the the healthy,

filter in uh a lot of the the healthy, secure people into your life.

secure people into your life. >> Yeah, we were talking about this and I I

>> Yeah, we were talking about this and I I don't know what it is. I just I don't

don't know what it is. I just I don't put up with toxic relationships at all

put up with toxic relationships at all and I've never have never tolerated

and I've never have never tolerated them. Yeah.

them. Yeah. >> And so I don't it's it's it's hard for

>> And so I don't it's it's it's hard for me to watch when it does happen. I see

me to watch when it does happen. I see it. I definitely see it in my life and

it. I definitely see it in my life and with some of my other friends and their

with some of my other friends and their friends, but

friends, but >> I I I just I've never had a tolerance

>> I I I just I've never had a tolerance for it and I never understood it. And I

for it and I never understood it. And I don't know whether it's because I think

don't know whether it's because I think it is I I think I've realized that

it is I I think I've realized that though, you know, friends come and go

though, you know, friends come and go like you were just saying, there's an

like you were just saying, there's an expendability to them. They come and go

expendability to them. They come and go and yeah, there's just an underlying

and yeah, there's just an underlying security under underneath that that you

security under underneath that that you have to be comfortable with. Yeah. So

have to be comfortable with. Yeah. So yeah,

yeah, >> I would say to another, you know, so we

>> I would say to another, you know, so we talked about the scorecard, we talked

talked about the scorecard, we talked about the intermingling of lives. Um,

about the intermingling of lives. Um, you know, it's funny. We've talked about

you know, it's funny. We've talked about proximity and repetition. Um, I would

proximity and repetition. Um, I would say another calling card of a toxic

say another calling card of a toxic friendship is to is two people that feel

friendship is to is two people that feel the need to be together all the time and

the need to be together all the time and do things together all the time, talk,

do things together all the time, talk, message each other all the time. There's

message each other all the time. There's a certain emotional dependence there

a certain emotional dependence there that's

that's probably not entirely healthy. I mean,

probably not entirely healthy. I mean, like, don't get me wrong, it's great to

like, don't get me wrong, it's great to have really close friends that you can

have really close friends that you can see a lot,

see a lot, >> but if you have a friend that you feel

>> but if you have a friend that you feel like you are dependent upon, their

like you are dependent upon, their perspective, their validation, their

perspective, their validation, their approval to do anything in your life.

approval to do anything in your life. Um,

Um, yeah, that that's a huge issue. Like

yeah, that that's a huge issue. Like there's I think I think insecure people

there's I think I think insecure people have a romantic notion about that of

have a romantic notion about that of like, well, they're my bestie. Of

like, well, they're my bestie. Of course, I include them in in everything.

course, I include them in in everything. Of course without them.

Of course without them. >> Yeah. Of course I take them to my job

>> Yeah. Of course I take them to my job interviews and of course I bring them

interviews and of course I bring them home for Thanksgiving and of course I

home for Thanksgiving and of course I text them at two two o'clock on a

text them at two two o'clock on a Tuesday night. It's like no no no.

Tuesday night. It's like no no no. That's that's actually not healthy.

That's that's actually not healthy. That's

That's >> that's that's like a level that's that's

>> that's that's like a level that's that's codependence basically.

codependence basically. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> All right. So, we've gone through how to

>> All right. So, we've gone through how to make friends,

make friends, >> how to keep friends,

>> how to keep friends, how to have bad friends, how to get rid

how to have bad friends, how to get rid of bad friends. There is this whole

of bad friends. There is this whole loneliness epidemic going on,

loneliness epidemic going on, >> quote unquote. Uh there's a lot of scary

>> quote unquote. Uh there's a lot of scary statistics out these days. Uh there's a

statistics out these days. Uh there's a lot of crazy technological change that's

lot of crazy technological change that's been happening. Social media,

been happening. Social media, smartphones, uh AI. What's going on in

smartphones, uh AI. What's going on in the world? Like it's it's we could have

the world? Like it's it's we could have spent we didn't we glossed over it

spent we didn't we glossed over it pretty quickly in the intro, but like we

pretty quickly in the intro, but like we really could have spent a full 10

really could have spent a full 10 minutes going over all of the harrowing

minutes going over all of the harrowing social statistics that are going on in

social statistics that are going on in the world at the moment. Um people are

the world at the moment. Um people are losing friends. They're losing touch

losing friends. They're losing touch with friends. They are have like having

with friends. They are have like having trouble making friends. They're more

trouble making friends. They're more lonely than ever before. What the hell

lonely than ever before. What the hell is going on?

is going on? >> Well, okay, we could actually kind of

>> Well, okay, we could actually kind of approach this in a couple of different

approach this in a couple of different ways. there's some external headwinds uh

ways. there's some external headwinds uh in the the current culture and then

in the the current culture and then there's kind of I think some internal

there's kind of I think some internal we'll call them internal headwinds okay

we'll call them internal headwinds okay or obstacles that we have to overcome

or obstacles that we have to overcome and let's let's first start with the

and let's let's first start with the external ones okay so just some of the

external ones okay so just some of the most common things that are cited in in

most common things that are cited in in the research as well things like um you

the research as well things like um you know time poverty our schedules we just

know time poverty our schedules we just try to pack everything in especially in

try to pack everything in especially in places like North America we're very

places like North America we're very very career focused

very career focused >> uh calendars get kind of you know full

>> uh calendars get kind of you know full very quickly we just don't have time for

very quickly we just don't have time for friends and you know proximity and

friends and you know proximity and repetition again two big factors and we

repetition again two big factors and we just don't have that time for repetition

just don't have that time for repetition for our friends anymore. Okay. So, uh

for our friends anymore. Okay. So, uh longer working hours there's caregiving

longer working hours there's caregiving involved. People spend way more time

involved. People spend way more time with their kids now too. Like our

with their kids now too. Like our generation spends a lot of time with

generation spends a lot of time with with their kids. We've seen in time use

with their kids. We've seen in time use >> um surveys that that happens and a lot

>> um surveys that that happens and a lot of times um

of times um >> you know that's pretty taxing on

>> you know that's pretty taxing on friendships. You it's it's really hard

friendships. You it's it's really hard to fit in. Like I'm the third wheel now,

to fit in. Like I'm the third wheel now, right? let me tell you about it.

right? let me tell you about it. >> Yeah. Right. Right. I'm like being like

>> Yeah. Right. Right. I'm like being like a single guy. My my kids have friends

a single guy. My my kids have friends and they've incorporated me into all of

and they've incorporated me into all of this and I've been able to kind of

this and I've been able to kind of navigate that pretty well. But it it

navigate that pretty well. But it it it's definitely a factor or you know

it's definitely a factor or you know it's like we don't go out and party

it's like we don't go out and party anymore.

anymore. >> Of course

>> Of course >> we're going to go hang out and you know

>> we're going to go hang out and you know watch Blueie or whatever it is. You know

watch Blueie or whatever it is. You know sometimes you just got to you got to go

sometimes you just got to you got to go for that.

for that. >> Does it ever does it ever bother you

>> Does it ever does it ever bother you that it's like when you hang out with

that it's like when you hang out with parents with young kids that it's like

parents with young kids that it's like it's about it's all about the kids the

it's about it's all about the kids the whole time or do you ever run into that

whole time or do you ever run into that because

because >> I mean yes. I mean, so, so what I found

>> I mean yes. I mean, so, so what I found is that,

is that, >> okay, if the if the kids aren't there,

>> okay, if the if the kids aren't there, what they like to do is complain about

what they like to do is complain about the kids. And at first, I was just like,

the kids. And at first, I was just like, guys,

guys, >> yeah,

>> yeah, >> like like shut the hell up and like, you

>> like like shut the hell up and like, you made this decision, blah, blah, blah.

made this decision, blah, blah, blah. What I eventually realized was, oh, this

What I eventually realized was, oh, this is their time to they can't do that when

is their time to they can't do that when their kids are around.

their kids are around. >> Of course,

>> Of course, >> they love their kids. They love being

>> they love their kids. They love being parents, but there's a side of it that

parents, but there's a side of it that they can't

they can't >> they need to

>> they need to >> they need to blow off that steam. So, I

>> they need to blow off that steam. So, I get that.

get that. >> Yeah. I think the other side of it

>> Yeah. I think the other side of it though too is I watch them change in

though too is I watch them change in front of me. So we talked about how you

front of me. So we talked about how you watch people go through these phases.

watch people go through these phases. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> I I I kind of see it I've reframed it as

>> I I I kind of see it I've reframed it as this is a privilege to me to watch this

this is a privilege to me to watch this person that I love

person that I love >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> change into something new and go through

>> change into something new and go through these struggles and be able to support

these struggles and be able to support them and all that. So I I don't know if

them and all that. So I I don't know if I'm very that's a very common reaction

I'm very that's a very common reaction to it. I know some people like as soon

to it. I know some people like as soon as somebody has kids in their life,

as somebody has kids in their life, they're like, I'm not even I'm done.

they're like, I'm not even I'm done. They just they don't want kids. They

They just they don't want kids. They don't want anything to do with it.

don't want anything to do with it. You're all you're going to do is talk

You're all you're going to do is talk about your kid and parenting and how

about your kid and parenting and how hard it is and I want nothing to do with

hard it is and I want nothing to do with it.

it. >> I'm not like that. But like I kind of

>> I'm not like that. But like I kind of get the motivation behind that.

get the motivation behind that. >> Yeah. I I I think there's a spectrum of

>> Yeah. I I I think there's a spectrum of parents and and again to your point and

parents and and again to your point and the reason I'm I'm even bringing this up

the reason I'm I'm even bringing this up is because I do think this is something

is because I do think this is something that is new with our generation.

that is new with our generation. Jonathan height talks about this all the

Jonathan height talks about this all the time about how the expectation that

time about how the expectation that parents have now of what parenting is is

parents have now of what parenting is is like so inflated. It is obsessive focus

like so inflated. It is obsessive focus on the kids.

on the kids. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> 24/7.

>> 24/7. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Like they the kids could be running up

>> Like they the kids could be running up and down the wall. I don't know. Like

and down the wall. I don't know. Like when I was young, if my parents were

when I was young, if my parents were having dinner with friends and I walked

having dinner with friends and I walked in and I started talking and make a

in and I started talking and make a bunch of noise, my parents would tell me

bunch of noise, my parents would tell me to shut the [ __ ] up and go go to my

to shut the [ __ ] up and go go to my room.

room. >> Get the hell out.

>> Get the hell out. >> Get out. Yeah. Get out. Go to your room.

>> Get out. Yeah. Get out. Go to your room. Be quiet. adults are talking, right? And

Be quiet. adults are talking, right? And it just

it just >> it feels like there's a certain

>> it feels like there's a certain >> like a lot of parents of our generation

>> like a lot of parents of our generation don't do that.

don't do that. >> It's like the kid becomes the thing.

>> It's like the kid becomes the thing. >> Uh and

>> Uh and >> putting aside the the the thing that

>> putting aside the the the thing that that teaches the kid, which is not a

that teaches the kid, which is not a good thing. Um it does make it very

good thing. Um it does make it very hard. It makes it hard to have like a

hard. It makes it hard to have like a real relationship or a friendship uh wi

real relationship or a friendship uh wi with those parents. That said, there are

with those parents. That said, there are a lot of people who I I do think are

a lot of people who I I do think are very good at prioritizing and organizing

very good at prioritizing and organizing their time and attention and, you know,

their time and attention and, you know, like they can they can step away from

like they can they can step away from being parents and still be very present

being parents and still be very present and and and

and and and um you know, and have a life outside of

um you know, and have a life outside of parenthood.

parenthood. >> So, people working longer hours,

>> So, people working longer hours, spending more time with their kids.

spending more time with their kids. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Uh what else?

>> Uh what else? >> We are a more mobile society now too,

>> We are a more mobile society now too, right? And there's a lot more life

right? And there's a lot more life transitions too. If you think about like

transitions too. If you think about like I talked about going to grad school and

I talked about going to grad school and stuff, right? So I've transitioned. I

stuff, right? So I've transitioned. I went living in a small town, middle of

went living in a small town, middle of nowhere. I moved to a city to go to

nowhere. I moved to a city to go to university and then I moved to again to

university and then I moved to again to go to grad school and then I moved again

go to grad school and then I moved again and then I went and I traveled. I was

and then I went and I traveled. I was nomad all that all these life

nomad all that all these life transitions maybe don't have that many

transitions maybe don't have that many but they're much much more common now.

but they're much much more common now. And so again the proximity thing, right?

And so again the proximity thing, right? Um that that's a lot harder. Proximity

Um that that's a lot harder. Proximity and repetition become a lot harder when

and repetition become a lot harder when we're a more mobile society. that kind

we're a more mobile society. that kind of waxes and waines um throughout you

of waxes and waines um throughout you know economic booms and busts of course

know economic booms and busts of course but um it is a thing I I mentioned too

but um it is a thing I I mentioned too like my sister um she's just had a lot

like my sister um she's just had a lot of jobs we we already mentioned that too

of jobs we we already mentioned that too a lot of people they just change jobs

a lot of people they just change jobs more frequently

more frequently >> change careers yeah

>> change careers yeah school remote work is a huge one too

school remote work is a huge one too that was uh that's definitely one that I

that was uh that's definitely one that I think is you know we've especially

think is you know we've especially Americans the the American dream is to

Americans the the American dream is to have everything kind of self-contained

have everything kind of self-contained in this little box your house right and

in this little box your house right and it's your job you have food delivery you

it's your job you have food delivery you have all that kind of stuff.

have all that kind of stuff. >> Yes. Yeah. So that's

>> Yes. Yeah. So that's >> um that's a huge one. And

>> um that's a huge one. And >> I don't know like the remote work thing

>> I don't know like the remote work thing too. I don't know it was really funny

too. I don't know it was really funny through the pandemic where more people

through the pandemic where more people started working remotely and I've been

started working remotely and I've been working remote since 2014 you know so I

working remote since 2014 you know so I was kind of used to it but

was kind of used to it but >> it was very very interesting to see

>> it was very very interesting to see people like that that was polarizing.

people like that that was polarizing. Some people hated it.

Some people hated it. >> It's a Yes.

>> It's a Yes. >> And some people loved it.

>> And some people loved it. >> Some people thrive and some people

>> Some people thrive and some people really flounder.

really flounder. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of people who just let that social contact

people who just let that social contact outside of their homes whether they had

outside of their homes whether they had kids or not. That was a really important

kids or not. That was a really important thing for them. So

thing for them. So >> that's that's a big one. Loss of third

>> that's that's a big one. Loss of third places. Uh you know who was that? That

places. Uh you know who was that? That was uh Rail Ray Oldenberg uh researcher

was uh Rail Ray Oldenberg uh researcher who came up with that. Cafes, libraries,

who came up with that. Cafes, libraries, >> um just going out, you know, is is much

>> um just going out, you know, is is much uh much less common. But also that's

uh much less common. But also that's related to to another one which is a

related to to another one which is a decline in civic um and associational

decline in civic um and associational life. So that's the Robert Putnham

life. So that's the Robert Putnham >> and that's been going on for 100 years.

>> and that's been going on for 100 years. >> He wrote that book back in the '9s,

>> He wrote that book back in the '9s, right? And he what he noticed was that

right? And he what he noticed was that trend started way back I think in the

trend started way back I think in the like really in the 50s but maybe even

like really in the 50s but maybe even 20s and 30s.

20s and 30s. >> I think it Yeah, I think he found it for

>> I think it Yeah, I think he found it for some things he found it going all all

some things he found it going all all the way back through the 20th century

the way back through the 20th century but it was I think he was primarily

but it was I think he was primarily focused on the the 1940s and 50s through

focused on the the 1940s and 50s through the 90s.

the 90s. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean I think about

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean I think about this in my own life too. It definitely

this in my own life too. It definitely like look at the generations in my

like look at the generations in my family. My grandparents were very active

family. My grandparents were very active in all these civic organizations. My

in all these civic organizations. My grandpa was a a a veteran of the Korean

grandpa was a a a veteran of the Korean War. That's where he was in the VFW. My

War. That's where he was in the VFW. My grandmother was in the Rotary Club. Um

grandmother was in the Rotary Club. Um they had a bridge club. They did Elks

they had a bridge club. They did Elks Club and um all of that. Like they were

Club and um all of that. Like they were My grandpa was even like a uh he did

My grandpa was even like a uh he did some local government stuff. Like they

some local government stuff. Like they were super super engaged. Their church

were super super engaged. Their church uh that's another kind of also third

uh that's another kind of also third space plus civic engagement place that

space plus civic engagement place that has

has >> is deteriorated. deteriorated. The thing

>> is deteriorated. deteriorated. The thing was is that these had these built-in

was is that these had these built-in social structures that they could lean

social structures that they could lean on and rely on to some extent.

on and rely on to some extent. >> Um,

>> Um, they were also pretty much all free,

they were also pretty much all free, >> you know what I mean? There was like or

>> you know what I mean? There was like or there was a low fee to be in the Elks

there was a low fee to be in the Elks Club or whatever, you know. Um, and now

Club or whatever, you know. Um, and now you I was talking about this the other

you I was talking about this the other day with a friend. Her dad when she was

day with a friend. Her dad when she was growing up, who's who's since passed,

growing up, who's who's since passed, but when they were growing up, he had uh

but when they were growing up, he had uh season tickets to the Broncos, the um

season tickets to the Broncos, the um NFL uh team, the Broncos, and he was a

NFL uh team, the Broncos, and he was a workingass, you know, middle class. He

workingass, you know, middle class. He had a they had lived in like a

had a they had lived in like a middle-ass neighborhood and whatever.

middle-ass neighborhood and whatever. >> Somebody like him today couldn't even

>> Somebody like him today couldn't even afford that. Yeah.

afford that. Yeah. >> Because it's gotten so expensive. These

>> Because it's gotten so expensive. These what third spaces have become less free

what third spaces have become less free and more pay.

and more pay. >> They're more luxury. It's more a luxury

>> They're more luxury. It's more a luxury item. Now,

item. Now, >> I was just going to bring up uh and [ __ ]

>> I was just going to bring up uh and [ __ ] on Soho House.

on Soho House. >> Oh, are you trying to be anti- elitist

>> Oh, are you trying to be anti- elitist here, Mark? What is it?

here, Mark? What is it? >> It's not even about elitism. I I just

>> It's not even about elitism. I I just think it's a shitty product. It's it's

think it's a shitty product. It's it's >> I I would absolutely agree with that.

>> I I would absolutely agree with that. It's like you guys have taken what used

It's like you guys have taken what used to be free and try to like monetize it.

to be free and try to like monetize it. >> Exactly. I mean it's and don't get me

>> Exactly. I mean it's and don't get me wrong the spaces are beautiful and sure

wrong the spaces are beautiful and sure they have like cool talks or like you

they have like cool talks or like you know film premieres and [ __ ] like that

know film premieres and [ __ ] like that but like

but like >> um I had a bunch of friends in Soho

>> um I had a bunch of friends in Soho House in New York and then uh you know

House in New York and then uh you know friend a friend of a good friend of ours

friend a friend of a good friend of ours here in LA was a member and so we would

here in LA was a member and so we would go a bunch and like every time I went

go a bunch and like every time I went I'm like what is the point of this

I'm like what is the point of this place? Yeah.

place? Yeah. >> What is the point? I think it's a little

>> What is the point? I think it's a little bit it's like a metaphor for the modern

bit it's like a metaphor for the modern age which is they essentially took what

age which is they essentially took what what used to be free a third space a

what used to be free a third space a community oriented space where people

community oriented space where people could join a club and meet meet up

could join a club and meet meet up together and a they monetized it but to

together and a they monetized it but to monetize it you have to introduce status

monetize it you have to introduce status games and when as soon as you introduce

games and when as soon as you introduce status games you can't actually have

status games you can't actually have friendships because everybody's there

friendships because everybody's there like

like >> talking about toxic friendships it's I I

>> talking about toxic friendships it's I I remember like having this argument with

remember like having this argument with a friend of mine who was a member and I

a friend of mine who was a member and I was I was like I was telling her I'm

was I was like I was telling her I'm like look

like look >> if you're paying $3,000 to be in her

>> if you're paying $3,000 to be in her room you cannot actually genuinely have

room you cannot actually genuinely have friendships with people in that room

friendships with people in that room because like everybody you talk to is

because like everybody you talk to is like oh well I better be getting my

like oh well I better be getting my money's worth here. Like I hope I make a

money's worth here. Like I hope I make a friend. What do I need to say to make a

friend. What do I need to say to make a friend so I can get my money's worth?

friend so I can get my money's worth? Like it just it is completely

Like it just it is completely antithetical to what creates a

antithetical to what creates a friendship.

friendship. >> Yeah. Um there's so that along with

>> Yeah. Um there's so that along with urban design just in general too. So we

urban design just in general too. So we talked about LA especially. It was funny

talked about LA especially. It was funny the last time I was out here. So I have

the last time I was out here. So I have some friends out here in LA that I've

some friends out here in LA that I've known for a very long time. I consider

known for a very long time. I consider them pretty good friends. Um we all went

them pretty good friends. Um we all went to college together. They live in

to college together. They live in different parts of LA. They never see

different parts of LA. They never see each other. I come into town and like

each other. I come into town and like we're trying to get together and we're

we're trying to get together and we're in it's like a three-hour text chain.

in it's like a three-hour text chain. We're trying to try I'm not joking

We're trying to try I'm not joking trying to triangulate because all of us

trying to triangulate because all of us got to get into a car. It's all going to

got to get into a car. It's all going to be around rush hour. We're like using AI

be around rush hour. We're like using AI to try to figure out where's the best

to try to figure out where's the best place for us to meet.

place for us to meet. >> Like there was just that much friction

>> Like there was just that much friction around it and it's exhausting.

around it and it's exhausting. >> It is. And

>> It is. And >> and so yeah, there is that like they say

>> and so yeah, there is that like they say in LA, you know, like you were saying if

in LA, you know, like you were saying if you live on the other side of town. What

you live on the other side of town. What I've noticed too about people who live

I've noticed too about people who live in LA is like you got your neighborhood

in LA is like you got your neighborhood and you just stay in it. You don't even

and you just stay in it. You don't even leave it. You're you're surrounded by 11

leave it. You're you're surrounded by 11 million people, but you're kind of

million people, but you're kind of trapped in this little box.

trapped in this little box. >> It it is uh it's like 12 small towns.

>> It it is uh it's like 12 small towns. Yeah. It's not a big city and it that

Yeah. It's not a big city and it that that's a jarring realization when you

that's a jarring realization when you move here.

move here. >> Um,

>> Um, >> and it's just because like if you have

>> and it's just because like if you have more walkable spaces and and more dense

more walkable spaces and and more dense densely populated areas that aren't

densely populated areas that aren't built around cars, especially like we

built around cars, especially like we like to do that in the United States,

like to do that in the United States, especially the newer cities that were

especially the newer cities that were settled in the west. Um, you you just

settled in the west. Um, you you just have more chance encounters with people

have more chance encounters with people face to face in than the real world.

face to face in than the real world. That's it's as simple as that. and you

That's it's as simple as that. and you have the proximity and the repetition

have the proximity and the repetition and that's you're already halfway there.

and that's you're already halfway there. >> So that's huge. Um there one I want to

>> So that's huge. Um there one I want to bring up though too that is I think

bring up though too that is I think especially relevant is polarization and

especially relevant is polarization and we're living more in low trust societies

we're living more in low trust societies now. Mhm.

now. Mhm. >> This is obviously more recent over the

>> This is obviously more recent over the last, you know, couple of decades, I

last, you know, couple of decades, I would say. But this is a huge thing. I

would say. But this is a huge thing. I think also too that the related to

think also too that the related to another one kind of mental health stuff

another one kind of mental health stuff I want to bring up, but the like the

I want to bring up, but the like the pandemic kind of this all ties in

pandemic kind of this all ties in together with that as well. Um, what

together with that as well. Um, what I've noticed anyway, just as an

I've noticed anyway, just as an anecdote, when I get on planes now, I

anecdote, when I get on planes now, I don't people don't strike up

don't people don't strike up conversations like they used to on

conversations like they used to on planes. It's like I've I've really

planes. It's like I've I've really noticed it. I mean, I've been flying a

noticed it. I mean, I've been flying a lot more lately, but still, like, I used

lot more lately, but still, like, I used to probably every other plane ride I'd

to probably every other plane ride I'd have, you'd have at least a 15 or 20

have, you'd have at least a 15 or 20 minute conversation with somebody, and I

minute conversation with somebody, and I generally wasn't the one who started it.

generally wasn't the one who started it. That never happens to me anymore.

That never happens to me anymore. >> You know why? And this ties into a

>> You know why? And this ties into a broader

broader >> reason behind all of this,

>> reason behind all of this, >> is because when you get on a plane now,

>> is because when you get on a plane now, you have Wi-Fi, you have your podcasts,

you have Wi-Fi, you have your podcasts, you have uh 200 movies you can choose

you have uh 200 movies you can choose from, you have

from, you have >> uh TV shows that you downloaded on your

>> uh TV shows that you downloaded on your iPad. Yeah,

iPad. Yeah, >> it's like I get on a It's funny cuz I'm

>> it's like I get on a It's funny cuz I'm old enough to remember the days when an

old enough to remember the days when an 8 hour flight was a very daunting thing.

8 hour flight was a very daunting thing. It was like, "Oh my god,

It was like, "Oh my god, >> yeah, I'm going to have to sit in a

>> yeah, I'm going to have to sit in a chair for 8 hours. This is going to be

chair for 8 hours. This is going to be awful." And like now now I'll do a 12-h

awful." And like now now I'll do a 12-h hour flight. Like it's nothing.

hour flight. Like it's nothing. >> You're like, "Yeah, I got to catch up on

>> You're like, "Yeah, I got to catch up on a whole season of, you know, whatever

a whole season of, you know, whatever the three movies, a nap, and catch up on

the three movies, a nap, and catch up on some work, and I I'm landing."

some work, and I I'm landing." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that that's it. We'll get

>> Yeah. I think that that's it. We'll get into a little bit more of that in the

into a little bit more of that in the technology section that we're going to

technology section that we're going to go um into. But in in general though,

go um into. But in in general though, you know, the people just tend to trust

you know, the people just tend to trust other people less.

other people less. >> Okay. So, when you're out and about, you

>> Okay. So, when you're out and about, you just it there's the the unfamiliarity

just it there's the the unfamiliarity you have with these people, you're much

you have with these people, you're much much less likely to break that barrier

much less likely to break that barrier for whatever reason, whether it's all

for whatever reason, whether it's all the toxicity online around politics and

the toxicity online around politics and everything like that has has to do with

everything like that has has to do with it. I'm sure road rage has gone up too.

it. I'm sure road rage has gone up too. you know, there we're living in a like

you know, there we're living in a like the the institutions that used to kind

the the institutions that used to kind of provide some trust for us have

of provide some trust for us have deteriorated and we're kind of all on

deteriorated and we're kind of all on our own and it's scary. I think that's

our own and it's scary. I think that's part of it as well. I remember last year

part of it as well. I remember last year when I talked to Jonathan height about

when I talked to Jonathan height about this and he was we he and I were kind of

this and he was we he and I were kind of going country by country and looking at

going country by country and looking at I mean it was primarily like the social

I mean it was primarily like the social media mental health crisis. Um, but we

media mental health crisis. Um, but we also talked quite a bit about like

also talked quite a bit about like loneliness and and things like that. And

loneliness and and things like that. And he was kind of pointing out which

he was kind of pointing out which countries seem to be a little bit immune

countries seem to be a little bit immune to a lot of the poor mental health

to a lot of the poor mental health trends that are going on. And then the

trends that are going on. And then the countries that are getting hit the

countries that are getting hit the hardest

hardest >> and uh and he was saying he was like I I

>> and uh and he was saying he was like I I he was relating it to individualism, but

he was relating it to individualism, but there were still a bunch of exceptions

there were still a bunch of exceptions here and there. Um, and then we talked a

here and there. Um, and then we talked a little bit further and he started

little bit further and he started talking about how uh some cultures just

talking about how uh some cultures just have this baked in uh community time.

have this baked in uh community time. You know, it's like everything revolves

You know, it's like everything revolves around big dinners with neighbors and

around big dinners with neighbors and family and um people take care of each

family and um people take care of each other's kids. Like there's just much

other's kids. Like there's just much more of a cultural emphasis on on

more of a cultural emphasis on on community and face toface time and large

community and face toface time and large meals and getting together with people

meals and getting together with people and celebrating holidays together. and

and celebrating holidays together. and he was kind of pointing out that these

he was kind of pointing out that these were the countries were still doing okay

were the countries were still doing okay like they kept their sanity essentially.

like they kept their sanity essentially. And I pointed out I was like that seems

And I pointed out I was like that seems to be an inoculation to this. It's not

to be an inoculation to this. It's not that it like

that it like >> it's not that they aren't being affected

>> it's not that they aren't being affected by social media and everything that's

by social media and everything that's going on. icious that that it's that

going on. icious that that it's that in-person all of those in-person

in-person all of those in-person institutions and and third places that

institutions and and third places that are maintained through the culture um

are maintained through the culture um are are inoculating the population to I

are are inoculating the population to I think a lot of the mental health effects

think a lot of the mental health effects that we see in places like the US, the

that we see in places like the US, the UK, Canada, Australia.

UK, Canada, Australia. >> Related to that, one of the things one

>> Related to that, one of the things one of the other factors is like uh

of the other factors is like uh household and demographic changes like

household and demographic changes like more people living alone. That's been a

more people living alone. That's been a big trend for a very long time actually.

big trend for a very long time actually. Um but so you see that you know there's

Um but so you see that you know there's increased loneliness say in the United

increased loneliness say in the United States and more people are living alone

States and more people are living alone but you don't see that as much in

but you don't see that as much in Sweden. A lot more people live alone in

Sweden. A lot more people live alone in Sweden. Yes. Right. As we saw through

Sweden. Yes. Right. As we saw through the pandemic right we we saw we found

the pandemic right we we saw we found out this is what we found out about

out this is what we found out about Sweden is oh a lot of people live alone

Sweden is oh a lot of people live alone there

there >> and they're doing okay.

>> and they're doing okay. >> Yeah

>> Yeah >> because they have a lot of those other

>> because they have a lot of those other communal Yes. A very communal mindset

communal Yes. A very communal mindset that they have. And so I think you're

that they have. And so I think you're right. There's that inoculation to it

right. There's that inoculation to it too. Another thing that Jonathan height

too. Another thing that Jonathan height found, and I believe you discussed it

found, and I believe you discussed it with him too, was that conservative kids

with him too, was that conservative kids are doing better mental health-wise than

are doing better mental health-wise than liberal kids. Y

liberal kids. Y >> uh and they're still

>> uh and they're still >> by a mar like a wide mar,

>> by a mar like a wide mar, >> but they're still using social media

>> but they're still using social media just as much. Yes,

just as much. Yes, >> they're still not exercising just all of

>> they're still not exercising just all of those things. I mean, they might be

those things. I mean, they might be there's different activities, but

there's different activities, but they're probably forced to go to church

they're probably forced to go to church a little bit more. You know, they're

a little bit more. You know, they're they're probably forced to eat dinner

they're probably forced to eat dinner together more just because of

together more just because of >> conservative social life. probably grow

>> conservative social life. probably grow up in larger families or

up in larger families or >> more communal,

>> more communal, >> have parents,

>> have parents, >> grandparents, yes,

>> grandparents, yes, >> that sort of thing. So I there's an

>> that sort of thing. So I there's an inoculating factor. I I totally agree

inoculating factor. I I totally agree with that. Yeah.

with that. Yeah. >> Um so and I don't want to just blame

>> Um so and I don't want to just blame technology for all of that. I think

technology for all of that. I think there is a a deeper social uh aspect to

there is a a deeper social uh aspect to it just like we saw in Rosettto

it just like we saw in Rosettto Pennsylvania too.

Pennsylvania too. >> Yes. I well and I think this is where

>> Yes. I well and I think this is where Putnham's work is really appropriate is

Putnham's work is really appropriate is is because it's like I remember reading

is because it's like I remember reading bowling alone for the first time like 12

bowling alone for the first time like 12 13 years ago

13 years ago >> and like right when kind of the social

>> and like right when kind of the social media stuff was just starting people

media stuff was just starting people were starting to freak out about I think

were starting to freak out about I think that book came out in either 99 or 2000

that book came out in either 99 or 2000 right bowling alone it was late 90s I

right bowling alone it was late 90s I think

think >> I think yeah I think it was around that

>> I think yeah I think it was around that >> so he was kind of ahead of his time

>> so he was kind of ahead of his time there

there >> well and the research was done in like

>> well and the research was done in like 9092 so it's it's he was way ahead of

9092 so it's it's he was way ahead of his time and basically I just

his time and basically I just it being very eye opening that this

it being very eye opening that this trend towards the atomization of society

trend towards the atomization of society towards the uh isolation of people um

towards the uh isolation of people um the breakdown of institutions the

the breakdown of institutions the breakdown of third spaces it's been a

breakdown of third spaces it's been a long term it's been a centuryl long

long term it's been a centuryl long progression and similar similarly to

progression and similar similarly to it's interesting if when you look at

it's interesting if when you look at political polar polarization and

political polar polarization and distrust in society that also predates

distrust in society that also predates social media in the internet like that

social media in the internet like that goes back into the 80s and 90s it really

goes back into the 80s and 90s it really it really starts with uh kind of the

it really starts with uh kind of the advent of cable television I think um

advent of cable television I think um >> which coincided with like Reagan and

>> which coincided with like Reagan and Thatcher and so everybody blames that

Thatcher and so everybody blames that but it's Yeah.

but it's Yeah. >> Yeah. So I mean these are these are

>> Yeah. So I mean these are these are multigenerational trends and it is I

multigenerational trends and it is I think a lot of things you know you can

think a lot of things you know you can look at social media or Tik Tok um as I

look at social media or Tik Tok um as I mean it is both a cause and an effect.

mean it is both a cause and an effect. It's hard to say like what is driving

It's hard to say like what is driving this overall.

this overall. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, those are basically the

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, those are basically the the the big external trends though, most

the the big external trends though, most commonly said ones, most researched ones

commonly said ones, most researched ones that we know of anyway to date. And so,

that we know of anyway to date. And so, >> yeah, I think just being even just being

>> yeah, I think just being even just being aware of those a little bit and being

aware of those a little bit and being like, okay, how does this affect the

like, okay, how does this affect the proximity, the the the repetition and

proximity, the the the repetition and the um kind of reciprocal nature of

the um kind of reciprocal nature of disclosure that have with my friends,

disclosure that have with my friends, all of those are headwinds that you

all of those are headwinds that you might have to be aware of. There's some

might have to be aware of. There's some internal ones now too and go some of

internal ones now too and go some of these internal frictions um that we can

these internal frictions um that we can go into more psychological I guess. One

go into more psychological I guess. One of them we've kind of touched on

of them we've kind of touched on already, the equality paradox. So

already, the equality paradox. So people, there are people who expect

people, there are people who expect friendships to feel equal all the time

friendships to feel equal all the time and like we've already said that that's

and like we've already said that that's just not possible. Um, balance in

just not possible. Um, balance in relationships. I really think it

relationships. I really think it >> you have to give it a long enough time

>> you have to give it a long enough time to balance out, right? You you're going

to balance out, right? You you're going to need things from friends sometimes

to need things from friends sometimes and sometimes they're going to need

and sometimes they're going to need things from you and it's never perfectly

things from you and it's never perfectly balanced and you just got to be okay

balanced and you just got to be okay with that. Again, the scorecard thing,

with that. Again, the scorecard thing, we've we've probably hit on it enough,

we've we've probably hit on it enough, but just want to highlight it again

but just want to highlight it again here.

here. >> I I wanna what I want to circle with

>> I I wanna what I want to circle with that, too, is just patience because I

that, too, is just patience because I think one of the things that

think one of the things that >> my wife and I learned

>> my wife and I learned >> moving to LA is that we were just

>> moving to LA is that we were just impatient. Like, we would meet somebody,

impatient. Like, we would meet somebody, >> we'd hang out with somebody a few times,

>> we'd hang out with somebody a few times, it'd be okay. And then we're like, well,

it'd be okay. And then we're like, well, I guess that's not going to be a friend,

I guess that's not going to be a friend, right?

right? >> But you you just you don't

>> But you you just you don't >> you don't realize how long it takes

>> you don't realize how long it takes sometimes and like how how patient you

sometimes and like how how patient you have to be with people.

have to be with people. >> Yeah. I you know there's there's

>> Yeah. I you know there's there's charismatic people you really like being

charismatic people you really like being around and then there's but the most of

around and then there's but the most of us are more like you need to get to know

us are more like you need to get to know us for a couple of months before you

us for a couple of months before you really start to find a lot of those

really start to find a lot of those things. So yeah

things. So yeah >> and I think in middle age too that

>> and I think in middle age too that becomes more of a factor right because

becomes more of a factor right because it's it is uh you're not you're not

it's it is uh you're not you're not really looking for pleasure friendships

really looking for pleasure friendships and utility friendships are pretty

and utility friendships are pretty obvious.

obvious. >> So those virtue friendships like they

>> So those virtue friendships like they take time. you have you really have to

take time. you have you really have to get to know somebody and like when you

get to know somebody and like when you really know your own values and what

really know your own values and what your own interest and what you care

your own interest and what you care about. Yeah. There's a certain openness

about. Yeah. There's a certain openness that has to happen I think and I I think

that has to happen I think and I I think some of this too is just also um you

some of this too is just also um you know we live in a culture of immediate

know we live in a culture of immediate gratification. You know, you people,

gratification. You know, you people, not to get on my old man shakes his fist

not to get on my old man shakes his fist at a club, but like I do feel like

at a club, but like I do feel like culturally we we're in a culture of

culturally we we're in a culture of instant gratification where

instant gratification where >> you expect somebody who you show up and

>> you expect somebody who you show up and you're like, "You're not cool. I'm

you're like, "You're not cool. I'm done." Yes.

done." Yes. >> Yeah. I'm out.

>> Yeah. I'm out. >> Cuz our whole life is like that.

>> Cuz our whole life is like that. >> Yeah. Now everything's like, "Yeah, the

>> Yeah. Now everything's like, "Yeah, the food's not ready. I'm out." You know,

food's not ready. I'm out." You know, like swipe, swipe, swipe.

like swipe, swipe, swipe. >> Yes. Exactly. Get on YouTube, watch 10

>> Yes. Exactly. Get on YouTube, watch 10 seconds like, "No, don't like it. Next

seconds like, "No, don't like it. Next video." you know, like it's just the

video." you know, like it's just the entire our entire lives are like that.

entire our entire lives are like that. And

And >> uh but people are not you can't swipe

>> uh but people are not you can't swipe people away and you have to give them

people away and you have to give them time. You have you have to let them grow

time. You have you have to let them grow on you and and sometimes like sometimes

on you and and sometimes like sometimes people will surprise you.

people will surprise you. >> Yeah. Yeah. I and I go back to the David

>> Yeah. Yeah. I and I go back to the David Brooks thing. The friction is the point.

Brooks thing. The friction is the point. The friction is the point in

The friction is the point in relationships in general, but in

relationships in general, but in friendships,

friendships, >> overcoming some sort of friction. Yeah.

>> overcoming some sort of friction. Yeah. I got to drive across half of LA to go

I got to drive across half of LA to go see a friend. That's because I value

see a friend. That's because I value that friendship,

that friendship, >> you know. Um or Whatever it is, it's

>> you know. Um or Whatever it is, it's like I I value your time and your your

like I I value your time and your your perspective and your friendship enough

perspective and your friendship enough that I'm gonna go through all of this

that I'm gonna go through all of this [ __ ] Yeah. And be patient with you up

[ __ ] Yeah. And be patient with you up front, too. Yeah. And give people a

front, too. Yeah. And give people a chance a little bit, too. Yeah.

chance a little bit, too. Yeah. >> The tall poppy problem, too. This I my

>> The tall poppy problem, too. This I my Australian friends always talk about

Australian friends always talk about this and, you know, oh, we have tall

this and, you know, oh, we have tall poppy syndrome and we don't want to look

poppy syndrome and we don't want to look like we're being arrogant or

like we're being arrogant or >> It's a very real thing.

>> It's a very real thing. >> It is. It is. And it can show up in

>> It is. It is. And it can show up in friendships. If there is an imbalance

friendships. If there is an imbalance there uh in status or something like

there uh in status or something like that, I I think this actually got to be

that, I I think this actually got to be more common for a little while. maybe

more common for a little while. maybe still is to some degree, but you at

still is to some degree, but you at least for a while anyway, it was like

least for a while anyway, it was like you could be friends, you know, you went

you could be friends, you know, you went to college with somebody, you could be

to college with somebody, you could be friends, they went off to be a doctor

friends, they went off to be a doctor and you ended up just kind of being, you

and you ended up just kind of being, you know, a low-level 9 to5 shovel and [ __ ]

know, a low-level 9 to5 shovel and [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. And

>> Yeah. Yeah. And >> working on a podcast,

>> working on a podcast, >> right? Yeah.

>> right? Yeah. >> Um, and so if if there is that imbalance

>> Um, and so if if there is that imbalance and you're that type of person who's

and you're that type of person who's like, "Oh, I don't want to I don't want

like, "Oh, I don't want to I don't want to feel like I'm holding this over

to feel like I'm holding this over arrogant or anything like that." And so

arrogant or anything like that." And so you're just kind of like, "I'm just

you're just kind of like, "I'm just going to push this one away."

going to push this one away." >> Yeah. Uh that's that's probably that's a

>> Yeah. Uh that's that's probably that's a problem openly celebrating with somebody

problem openly celebrating with somebody you know tends to be like a little bit

you know tends to be like a little bit fauxa I guess the last one I want I do

fauxa I guess the last one I want I do want to go over um

want to go over um there and we've kind of already

there and we've kind of already mentioned it optimization culture

mentioned it optimization culture >> and that gets internalized okay

>> and that gets internalized okay >> um we treat friendship like a market we

>> um we treat friendship like a market we you and I have actually been using some

you and I have actually been using some language around what's the ROI on this

language around what's the ROI on this and what's you know look I'm a

and what's you know look I'm a capitalist but it's kind of like invaded

capitalist but it's kind of like invaded every little crevice of our lives It's

every little crevice of our lives It's like what is the return I'm getting on

like what is the return I'm getting on this?

this? >> Sohow. See, this is my point, Drew. This

>> Sohow. See, this is my point, Drew. This is what I was saying.

is what I was saying. >> I know. That's why I wanted to bring it

>> I know. That's why I wanted to bring it up again though because it often leads

up again though because it often leads to a lot of like performance. Yes.

to a lot of like performance. Yes. >> Too in in relationships because it's

>> Too in in relationships because it's like, oh, this person needs to get

like, oh, this person needs to get something out of this and I need to be a

something out of this and I need to be a certain way.

certain way. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And that uh that erodess the the

>> And that uh that erodess the the disclosure, the authentic disclosure

disclosure, the authentic disclosure part of of friendship, right? You're not

part of of friendship, right? You're not being you're not really being your true

being you're not really being your true self when you're doing these sorts of

self when you're doing these sorts of things. It's funny like one of the

things. It's funny like one of the reasons I like going down to Brazil is

reasons I like going down to Brazil is because I can talk freely about American

because I can talk freely about American politics. Like I don't feel free to talk

politics. Like I don't feel free to talk >> that I can't Yeah. Bring it up. That's

>> that I can't Yeah. Bring it up. That's so [ __ ] up.

so [ __ ] up. >> Especially when you're meeting new

>> Especially when you're meeting new people, there's always that kind of

people, there's always that kind of awkward moment. Yeah. Where it's like

awkward moment. Yeah. Where it's like somebody will say something a little bit

somebody will say something a little bit political and you're like testing the

political and you're like testing the waters. Where do I go with this?

waters. Where do I go with this? >> Yeah. What? How do I do am I diplomatic

>> Yeah. What? How do I do am I diplomatic about it? Do I say what I really think?

about it? Do I say what I really think? Uh do I think which way do I think they

Uh do I think which way do I think they lean? you know, it just it's it's really

lean? you know, it just it's it's really exhausting. And and the thing is too,

exhausting. And and the thing is too, >> you know, what I find is that most

>> you know, what I find is that most people don't really care that much,

people don't really care that much, >> but everybody's because there are

>> but everybody's because there are there's enough of a minority of people

there's enough of a minority of people who do care a [ __ ] lot. Yeah.

who do care a [ __ ] lot. Yeah. >> And you never know when you're around

>> And you never know when you're around one. Uh that it's just everybody gets

one. Uh that it's just everybody gets kind of uptight and their butthole

kind of uptight and their butthole puckers up because it's

puckers up because it's >> I don't know about you, but like you

>> I don't know about you, but like you know I've been at dinners and stuff

know I've been at dinners and stuff where it's just like somebody loses

where it's just like somebody loses their [ __ ] mind and like

their [ __ ] mind and like >> just ruins everything for everyone

>> just ruins everything for everyone >> over something very stupid.

>> over something very stupid. >> Stupid. So just so dumb. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Stupid. So just so dumb. Yeah. Yeah. >> So

>> So >> I Yeah. And you and I don't know. We we

>> I Yeah. And you and I don't know. We we >> I I I tend to navigate both sides, you

>> I I I tend to navigate both sides, you know. Like a lot of my family where I

know. Like a lot of my family where I come from is more on the conservatives.

come from is more on the conservatives. I have a lot of my friends now are more

I have a lot of my friends now are more on the liberal side and they everybody

on the liberal side and they everybody knows that I'm more centrist.

knows that I'm more centrist. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um and they tiptoe around me even still

>> Um and they tiptoe around me even still too. So it's Yeah. I hate it. I hate it

too. So it's Yeah. I hate it. I hate it that it's like that.

that it's like that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um there's a demonization of people that

>> Um there's a demonization of people that they don't understand that that that's

they don't understand that that that's really really toxic. And it's

really really toxic. And it's >> I I have a neighbor of mine who's who's

>> I I have a neighbor of mine who's who's I would call him a friend now too. He

I would call him a friend now too. He over during COVID and all that, he had a

over during COVID and all that, he had a big falling out with somebody he's been

big falling out with somebody he's been friends with for like 30 years.

friends with for like 30 years. >> Wow.

>> Wow. >> Over, you know, vaccine stuff or

>> Over, you know, vaccine stuff or political stuff or whatever.

political stuff or whatever. >> Well, and the funny thing, too, is that

>> Well, and the funny thing, too, is that it's not limited to the political

it's not limited to the political conversation because there's all sorts

conversation because there's all sorts of adjacent conversations that like hit

of adjacent conversations that like hit the hit a political nerve that have like

the hit a political nerve that have like now become associated, right? It's like

now become associated, right? It's like the pandemic, right? If you you're

the pandemic, right? If you you're afraid to even talk about the pandemic

afraid to even talk about the pandemic now because it's you might say

now because it's you might say >> this huge collective thing we all went

>> this huge collective thing we all went through and we can't even talk,

through and we can't even talk, >> right? cuz you might you might mention

>> right? cuz you might you might mention something that somebody in the room is

something that somebody in the room is going to freak out and start raving

going to freak out and start raving about. And um and yeah, I've had the

about. And um and yeah, I've had the same thing. Like there's there there's

same thing. Like there's there there's actually a person that you and I both

actually a person that you and I both know, a mutual acquaintance, used to be

know, a mutual acquaintance, used to be a friend of mine who um

a friend of mine who um >> I got in a stupid [ __ ] argument over

>> I got in a stupid [ __ ] argument over uh basically something semantic that he

uh basically something semantic that he took offense to and um yeah, he stopped

took offense to and um yeah, he stopped hanging out with me. So it's

hanging out with me. So it's >> it is it's very obnoxious. I think it's

>> it is it's very obnoxious. I think it's it's a it's a subtle tax on um on

it's a it's a subtle tax on um on everybody like a mental tax on everybody

everybody like a mental tax on everybody that that I think we don't think about.

that that I think we don't think about. There was maybe maybe we can close out

There was maybe maybe we can close out this section with this but an

this section with this but an interesting research finding I found and

interesting research finding I found and it's not a strong link and hasn't been

it's not a strong link and hasn't been replicated or anything like that but um

replicated or anything like that but um there was some some data to suggest that

there was some some data to suggest that uh there's a uh like a correlation

uh there's a uh like a correlation between risk-taking and loneliness and

between risk-taking and loneliness and people who are report being more lonely

people who are report being more lonely are less likely to take risks there's

are less likely to take risks there's like an inverse correlation there um and

like an inverse correlation there um and I think like social risk and stuff like

I think like social risk and stuff like it it makes total sense

it it makes total sense And then they can get fix

since I've gotten off mostly mostly gotten off social media. Although I'll

gotten off social media. Although I'll still find ways around like I'll still

still find ways around like I'll still scroll through stuff, whatever it is.

scroll through stuff, whatever it is. You you find ways.

You you find ways. >> Um I've I've definitely noticed this

>> Um I've I've definitely noticed this though that I do really prefer more

though that I do really prefer more hanging out with people and I'm I'm

hanging out with people and I'm I'm typically the initiator too, which I'm

typically the initiator too, which I'm fine with um around that. But We need

fine with um around that. But We need people like you. People like me need

people like you. People like me need people like you.

people like you. >> That's another thing I I want to point

>> That's another thing I I want to point out too is that this is a problem. Yes.

out too is that this is a problem. Yes. It's a societalwide problem, but it's

It's a societalwide problem, but it's solved on an individual basis.

solved on an individual basis. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Right. You have it is the the the Gandhi

>> Right. You have it is the the the Gandhi quote, right? Be the change you want to

quote, right? Be the change you want to see in the world. As cheesy as that

see in the world. As cheesy as that sounds, this is seriously built one

sounds, this is seriously built one relationship at a time and you have to

relationship at a time and you have to be part of the the solution here.

be part of the the solution here. >> And I will say this too. So I have a

>> And I will say this too. So I have a friend here in town named Max and he's

friend here in town named Max and he's he's like he's amazing. He's like he

he's like he's amazing. He's like he reaches out to every he plans so many

reaches out to every he plans so many things. He invites people to so like I I

things. He invites people to so like I I feel bad sometimes the amount of things

feel bad sometimes the amount of things he invites me to and I like I don't

he invites me to and I like I don't reciprocate. He's just an amazing

reciprocate. He's just an amazing connector and I'm I'm so grateful to be

connector and I'm I'm so grateful to be friends with him because if I like he he

friends with him because if I like he he is like single-handedly boosted my

is like single-handedly boosted my social life by probably 30 or 40%. So

social life by probably 30 or 40%. So hold on to those people.

hold on to those people. >> If you are somebody if you can develop

>> If you are somebody if you can develop this skill set

this skill set >> it is so valuable in this day and age.

>> it is so valuable in this day and age. if you are the sort of person who can

if you are the sort of person who can reach out, be proactive, check in on

reach out, be proactive, check in on people, invite people to things, um it

people, invite people to things, um it is it's incredibly valuable these days

is it's incredibly valuable these days and and so it's a great skill to have.

and and so it's a great skill to have. >> So obviously technology is a huge factor

>> So obviously technology is a huge factor in all this. Like what do you what do

in all this. Like what do you what do you think is going on?

you think is going on? >> We live in the most connected time in

>> We live in the most connected time in history and yet we feel more alone than

history and yet we feel more alone than ever right now, right? It it's crazy to

ever right now, right? It it's crazy to think about that paradox.

think about that paradox. >> Yeah. Derek Thompson has this really

>> Yeah. Derek Thompson has this really cool video um that he just did a couple

cool video um that he just did a couple of months ago on the big think and he

of months ago on the big think and he talks about how technology over the past

talks about how technology over the past like probably hundred yearsish

like probably hundred yearsish definitely the last 60 years has

definitely the last 60 years has progressively kind of privatized social

progressively kind of privatized social life. So he started with a car back in

life. So he started with a car back in the 60s you know the car kind of like

the 60s you know the car kind of like people had cars but it was kind of a

people had cars but it was kind of a luxury thing and then it became more

luxury thing and then it became more middle class and everybody had a car

middle class and everybody had a car starting around the 50s and 60s that

starting around the 50s and 60s that gave rise to the suburbs. We were able

gave rise to the suburbs. We were able to privatize, get away from everybody

to privatize, get away from everybody and move out to the suburbs, have a

and move out to the suburbs, have a little more room, privatize our lives a

little more room, privatize our lives a little bit. Then the television came

little bit. Then the television came along. We were able to privatize our

along. We were able to privatize our leisure time that way. Right. From the

leisure time that way. Right. From the 1960s to the 1990s, Americans gained 300

1960s to the 1990s, Americans gained 300 hours of uh leisure time per year.

hours of uh leisure time per year. Nearly all of that went into watching

Nearly all of that went into watching television. Wow.

television. Wow. >> Right. Okay. So, you're sitting, you're

>> Right. Okay. So, you're sitting, you're not out and about, you're not

not out and about, you're not interacting with people, you're not

interacting with people, you're not making friends. Right.

making friends. Right. He argues that the smartphone has

He argues that the smartphone has privatized our attention now. And what

privatized our attention now. And what he means by that is you could be sitting

he means by that is you could be sitting on a couch next to somebody, each of you

on a couch next to somebody, each of you on your devices, and you're alone. All

on your devices, and you're alone. All right.

right. >> Forget that. You could be in a crowded

>> Forget that. You could be in a crowded restaurant and be alone.

restaurant and be alone. >> Exactly. You could be on a bus. You

>> Exactly. You could be on a bus. You could be you could Yeah. You could be

could be you could Yeah. You could be surrounded by people and be alone with

surrounded by people and be alone with with because your attention is diverted

with because your attention is diverted to your device, right?

to your device, right? And so the way I think about this anyway

And so the way I think about this anyway is I go back to our three our three

is I go back to our three our three sides of our triangle, right? Proximity,

sides of our triangle, right? Proximity, repetition, and disclosure. Technology

repetition, and disclosure. Technology affects all of those. Now, I'm not going

affects all of those. Now, I'm not going to sit here and say that technology is

to sit here and say that technology is bad and it's the only thing that's um

bad and it's the only thing that's um eroding those three things, okay?

eroding those three things, okay? Because I think there's a way you can

Because I think there's a way you can use it where it does leverage it. But if

use it where it does leverage it. But if you think about it, uh proximity um you

you think about it, uh proximity um you don't have to be around people anymore.

don't have to be around people anymore. there's no embodied experience that you

there's no embodied experience that you necessarily have to have uh to be in a

necessarily have to have uh to be in a group or to make a connection with

group or to make a connection with somebody. Uh you don't make that same

somebody. Uh you don't make that same connection when you're not there.

connection when you're not there. Anyway, there was this trend too, Derek

Anyway, there was this trend too, Derek Thompson points this out in that video.

Thompson points this out in that video. There's this trend called cance elation.

There's this trend called cance elation. >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> On TikTok, which is basically kids just

>> On TikTok, which is basically kids just doing dances that have like, "Oh, my

doing dances that have like, "Oh, my friend just canceled this event. Now I

friend just canceled this event. Now I got to stay home."

got to stay home." >> Oh, yeah.

>> Oh, yeah. >> Right. Cancel elation. They're elated

>> Right. Cancel elation. They're elated that that somebody canceled on

that that somebody canceled on something. Right.

something. Right. >> That's not what he points out there,

>> That's not what he points out there, too. That's not really that's not

too. That's not really that's not loneliness. That's choosing to be alone.

loneliness. That's choosing to be alone. He calls it the antisocial epidemic, not

He calls it the antisocial epidemic, not necessarily the loneliness epidemic.

necessarily the loneliness epidemic. >> Interesting. It's it's like joy of

>> Interesting. It's it's like joy of missing out.

missing out. >> The joy of missing out. Yeah, that was

>> The joy of missing out. Yeah, that was Yeah, that was the kind of a thing. And

Yeah, that was the kind of a thing. And that's kind of evolved into this now,

that's kind of evolved into this now, too. Um yeah, repetition too. The

too. Um yeah, repetition too. The digital digital interactions. Yeah, they

digital digital interactions. Yeah, they can be um repeated over time, but more

can be um repeated over time, but more likely like you you're you're in a

likely like you you're you're in a comment section or something like that.

comment section or something like that. It's a one-off interaction. That's why

It's a one-off interaction. That's why people are such [ __ ] on the internet

people are such [ __ ] on the internet because there's no stakes there, right?

because there's no stakes there, right? It's a one-time interaction like we saw

It's a one-time interaction like we saw with a tit for tat back that during in

with a tit for tat back that during in in single interactions, you're more

in single interactions, you're more likely to defect. You're more likely to

likely to defect. You're more likely to be an [ __ ] in single interactions

be an [ __ ] in single interactions than over uh repeated time.

than over uh repeated time. >> The disclosure thing too, okay?

>> The disclosure thing too, okay? Uh when and if we even do post anymore,

Uh when and if we even do post anymore, which posting is even becoming less

which posting is even becoming less common now, right? It's more media than

common now, right? It's more media than it is social, right?

it is social, right? We're incentivized to perform instead of

We're incentivized to perform instead of actually

actually >> express ourselves genuinely. Right.

>> express ourselves genuinely. Right. >> Which makes it transactional.

>> Which makes it transactional. >> Which makes it transactional. Exactly.

>> Which makes it transactional. Exactly. So the stakes also can be a lot higher

So the stakes also can be a lot higher online. Like we talked about in the

online. Like we talked about in the shame episode. There's you you just

shame episode. There's you you just don't even want to express yourself

don't even want to express yourself online anymore because for fear of

online anymore because for fear of getting cancelled or called out or going

getting cancelled or called out or going viral for the wrong reasons,

viral for the wrong reasons, >> right? It's there forever, right? So

>> right? It's there forever, right? So it's maybe you apply for a job in 12

it's maybe you apply for a job in 12 years and that video you made with your

years and that video you made with your friends comes back and bites you in the

friends comes back and bites you in the ass.

ass. >> Right. Right. So like there's there's

>> Right. Right. So like there's there's really not the incentive or the

really not the incentive or the structure there for you to um have like

structure there for you to um have like genuine connections with people.

genuine connections with people. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Now I that that's how it technology can

>> Now I that that's how it technology can erode the three sides of the triangle. I

erode the three sides of the triangle. I think there's though there's ways that

think there's though there's ways that it can be used where it actually

it can be used where it actually bolsters all of those. Right. The thing

bolsters all of those. Right. The thing I really liked about the like the early

I really liked about the like the early internet and early social media too at

internet and early social media too at least how we used it. You remember like

least how we used it. You remember like Facebook was where's the party? Yeah.

Facebook was where's the party? Yeah. >> Right. Like you get on to figure out

>> Right. Like you get on to figure out where the party was and then you would

where the party was and then you would go to the party. It was awesome. It was

go to the party. It was awesome. It was It was such an amazing tool. And there's

It was such an amazing tool. And there's still there's lots of tools out there

still there's lots of tools out there like that. Meetups and, you know, yeah,

like that. Meetups and, you know, yeah, dating apps even to, you know, use

dating apps even to, you know, use correctly. I, you know, I [ __ ] on them a

correctly. I, you know, I [ __ ] on them a lot, but I I still think there's a

lot, but I I still think there's a utility to them. Uh, repetition, too.

utility to them. Uh, repetition, too. Keeping in touch with people has never

Keeping in touch with people has never been easier. It's low friction, so like

been easier. It's low friction, so like take that into account. You're not going

take that into account. You're not going to get the same quality as like an

to get the same quality as like an inerson interaction. But one of the one

inerson interaction. But one of the one of the rules I have now is like when I'm

of the rules I have now is like when I'm thinking of a friend, I send him a text.

thinking of a friend, I send him a text. Yeah.

Yeah. >> Just like, "Hey, I was thinking I

>> Just like, "Hey, I was thinking I haven't seen him in a while or

haven't seen him in a while or something. and I haven't been around

something. and I haven't been around them.

them. >> I need to get better at that.

>> I need to get better at that. >> That is it's it's awesome. You're like,

>> That is it's it's awesome. You're like, "Hey, I was just thinking about this

"Hey, I was just thinking about this time, you know, when we were growing up

time, you know, when we were growing up or

or >> Hey, bro, remember that thing?

>> Hey, bro, remember that thing? >> Yeah. Hey, bro, remember that thing?

>> Yeah. Hey, bro, remember that thing? >> Wasn't that cool?

>> Wasn't that cool? >> Was just thinking of you. How you

>> Was just thinking of you. How you doing?" You know,

doing?" You know, >> sounds easy and stupid a little bit even

>> sounds easy and stupid a little bit even too, but it does go a long way with

too, but it does go a long way with people. It will.

people. It will. >> Um, and then the disclosure as well. I

>> Um, and then the disclosure as well. I mean again I think the incentives can go

mean again I think the incentives can go either way with that but you know

either way with that but you know technology you can call somebody up

technology you can call somebody up still right like and for free basically

still right like and for free basically anywhere in the world now and and you

anywhere in the world now and and you can have a genuine uh conversation and

can have a genuine uh conversation and connection with

connection with >> so it's it's neither good nor bad it's a

>> so it's it's neither good nor bad it's a tool

tool >> yes

>> yes >> okay as I mentioned earlier younger

>> okay as I mentioned earlier younger generations are reporting more

generations are reporting more loneliness and we tend to blame um we

loneliness and we tend to blame um we tend to blame technology for that and I

tend to blame technology for that and I think that is a part of it definitely

think that is a part of it definitely more likely to just stay online and

more likely to just stay online and scroll and and not connect with people

scroll and and not connect with people and they have a harder time connecting

and they have a harder time connecting with people. Sure, I get all that. I

with people. Sure, I get all that. I just think though too that um how

just think though too that um how younger people are are socializing is

younger people are are socializing is just different and we're not quite um

just different and we're not quite um we're not quite caught up in the

we're not quite caught up in the research on that. You know, my gripe

research on that. You know, my gripe with uh some of Gene Twangi's work,

with uh some of Gene Twangi's work, right?

right? >> Don't get me wrong, I like her methods.

>> Don't get me wrong, I like her methods. >> I just don't agree with all of her

>> I just don't agree with all of her interpretations sometimes. One of those

interpretations sometimes. One of those is she's like, "Oh, kids aren't having

is she's like, "Oh, kids aren't having sex. They're not drinking. They're not

sex. They're not drinking. They're not all of these, you know, all these things

all of these, you know, all these things that we used to think of as kind of like

that we used to think of as kind of like rights of passage a little bit. And it's

rights of passage a little bit. And it's like, is that such is that growing up?

like, is that such is that growing up? Is that such a bad thing?

Is that such a bad thing? >> See, I I always find this so weird

>> See, I I always find this so weird because when we were kids,

because when we were kids, >> all we heard about was the parents

>> all we heard about was the parents screeching about like, oh my god, kids

screeching about like, oh my god, kids these days, they're they're listening to

these days, they're they're listening to loud music. They're doing drugs. They're

loud music. They're doing drugs. They're having sex. We need to save the kids.

having sex. We need to save the kids. They're corrupting our kids. And now

They're corrupting our kids. And now it's the kids have actually stopped

it's the kids have actually stopped doing this.

doing this. >> And now we're like, you kids need to

>> And now we're like, you kids need to have sex and do some drugs,

have sex and do some drugs, >> right? Like

>> right? Like so and there's every generation has some

so and there's every generation has some version of kids these days. Right.

version of kids these days. Right. Absolutely.

Absolutely. >> And so um I think blaming technology is

>> And so um I think blaming technology is a little bit lazy uh to just put it on

a little bit lazy uh to just put it on that. I agree that it can be used in a

that. I agree that it can be used in a very uh poor way that doesn't increase

very uh poor way that doesn't increase socialization and friends and all of

socialization and friends and all of this. But I think if we're and this is

this. But I think if we're and this is what Dererick Thompson I think where he

what Dererick Thompson I think where he landed on it too. It's like if you just

landed on it too. It's like if you just kind of do a values check a little bit

kind of do a values check a little bit and start using it in a way that does

and start using it in a way that does increase your sociality and your your

increase your sociality and your your potential to make friends then it's a

potential to make friends then it's a great thing. I think the biggest effect

great thing. I think the biggest effect I've seen from technology on my own

I've seen from technology on my own friendships is just it is eroded at my

friendships is just it is eroded at my at my

at my ability to delay

ability to delay pleasure and satisfaction, right? Like I

pleasure and satisfaction, right? Like I do think part of that jomo thing or that

do think part of that jomo thing or that can sol

can sol uh is when you're so easily entertained

uh is when you're so easily entertained and comfortable at home.

and comfortable at home. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Okay.

>> Oh yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. There's like a joy. And trust me,

>> Yeah. There's like a joy. And trust me, I'm guilty of this. My my wife and I, we

I'm guilty of this. My my wife and I, we joke about this all the time. Like, you

joke about this all the time. Like, you know, sometimes we'll something will get

know, sometimes we'll something will get cancelled and we'll just look at each

cancelled and we'll just look at each other and be like,

other and be like, >> "Yes."

>> "Yes." >> Well, well, think about the comparison

>> Well, well, think about the comparison there, right? Because, oh, you might go,

there, right? Because, oh, you might go, it might not be a good time. You there's

it might not be a good time. You there's going to be traffic. You're not going to

going to be traffic. You're not going to find a place to park.

find a place to park. [ __ ] that are going to be awkward

[ __ ] that are going to be awkward that like, you know, you may be do

that like, you know, you may be do something embarrassing or whatever. Or

something embarrassing or whatever. Or you can just sit and kind of like get

you can just sit and kind of like get >> scroll watch Netflix. Dopamine,

>> scroll watch Netflix. Dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. Yeah.

dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, it is there is um

>> Yeah. So, it is there is um >> there's an opportunity cost. Like I do

>> there's an opportunity cost. Like I do remember being younger and

remember being younger and >> sitting around being bored on a Saturday

>> sitting around being bored on a Saturday night and being like, "Man, what is

night and being like, "Man, what is anybody doing anything?" Like going

anybody doing anything?" Like going through my phone and texting every

through my phone and texting every single one of my friends being like,

single one of my friends being like, "Yo, what are you up to tonight? What

"Yo, what are you up to tonight? What are you up to tonight?" I couldn't tell

are you up to tonight?" I couldn't tell you last time I did that.

you last time I did that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Like it it these days it's kind of the

>> Like it it these days it's kind of the opposite. It kind It's kind of like it's

opposite. It kind It's kind of like it's like, "God, I'm invited all this stuff.

like, "God, I'm invited all this stuff. I kind of just want to like stay home

I kind of just want to like stay home and play a video game.

and play a video game. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> I keep promising that I'm going to go

>> I keep promising that I'm going to go through my LA story.

through my LA story. >> Okay. Yeah, this is a good time to do

>> Okay. Yeah, this is a good time to do it.

it. >> Yeah, like we're going to deconstruct my

>> Yeah, like we're going to deconstruct my friendship problems

friendship problems >> now that we've been through all that.

>> now that we've been through all that. Yeah, let's let's let's hear it.

Yeah, let's let's let's hear it. >> So, I think we've covered almost all the

>> So, I think we've covered almost all the elements at some point or another in

elements at some point or another in this episode so far. So, to to most

this episode so far. So, to to most listeners are probably familiar, you

listeners are probably familiar, you know, I moved to LA three and a half

know, I moved to LA three and a half years ago from New York. Um,

years ago from New York. Um, and I've said for a year or two now that

and I've said for a year or two now that my biggest my biggest pain point is my

my biggest my biggest pain point is my social life. Like it's

social life. Like it's >> I would say it's it's okay, not great.

>> I would say it's it's okay, not great. You know, I'd give it like a six out of

You know, I'd give it like a six out of 10.

10. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And for a couple years now, I've I've

>> And for a couple years now, I've I've said that it's my highest priority and

said that it's my highest priority and it

it >> it's kind of the same. So,

>> it's kind of the same. So, >> we've talked about a few of the things.

>> we've talked about a few of the things. LA is a it's a low proximity

LA is a it's a low proximity environment, right? So it's you don't

environment, right? So it's you don't everything's so spread out you don't

everything's so spread out you don't really run into the same people super

really run into the same people super often. On top of that it is see New York

often. On top of that it is see New York everybody was always busy but everybody

everybody was always busy but everybody was on top of each other. So you would

was on top of each other. So you would eventually kind of run into the same

eventually kind of run into the same people frequently. LA has kind of the

people frequently. LA has kind of the worst of both worlds where it's very

worst of both worlds where it's very spread out and everybody's busy. So it's

spread out and everybody's busy. So it's >> you just you don't get that repetition.

>> you just you don't get that repetition. So even like the people in my

So even like the people in my neighborhood, you don't really get that

neighborhood, you don't really get that that repetition of like running into

that repetition of like running into them frequently. I just learned there's

them frequently. I just learned there's a subway in LA. I had no No, I had no

a subway in LA. I had no No, I had no idea.

idea. >> It doesn't go anywhere.

>> It doesn't go anywhere. >> The reason like in New York, you hop on

>> The reason like in New York, you hop on the train, you can be, you know,

the train, you can be, you know, wherever.

wherever. >> The reason you've never heard of it is

>> The reason you've never heard of it is uh it doesn't actually take you

uh it doesn't actually take you anywhere.

anywhere. >> I had no idea. I've been coming out here

>> I had no idea. I've been coming out here since 2018. I had no idea.

since 2018. I had no idea. >> Anyway,

>> Anyway, >> I made the mistake that we talked about

>> I made the mistake that we talked about earlier. When I moved here, I did what

earlier. When I moved here, I did what we talked about. I I was like, I'm going

we talked about. I I was like, I'm going to sign up for this class. I'm going to

to sign up for this class. I'm going to take up surfing. I'm going to join this

take up surfing. I'm going to join this club. I'm going to

club. I'm going to >> start taking tennis lessons. And

>> start taking tennis lessons. And essentially what that did is I met

essentially what that did is I met dozens and dozens of random strangers

dozens and dozens of random strangers who I never saw again.

who I never saw again. >> Um looking back pretty much all my

>> Um looking back pretty much all my friends I made out here uh have been

friends I made out here uh have been somehow through work. They're business

somehow through work. They're business entrepreneurs, business owners,

entrepreneurs, business owners, creators, podcasters, authors um or

creators, podcasters, authors um or people who who work in that industry or

people who who work in that industry or adjacent to those people. People who run

adjacent to those people. People who run agencies, people who run production

agencies, people who run production companies, um things like that. So

companies, um things like that. So looking back, if I did it again, I would

looking back, if I did it again, I would just go straight like like I said

just go straight like like I said earlier, my obsession is business. Like

earlier, my obsession is business. Like that's where I feel stakes in my life. I

that's where I feel stakes in my life. I don't have kids. Um but I've got all

don't have kids. Um but I've got all sorts of ambitious professional goals.

sorts of ambitious professional goals. That's where the stakes are in my life

That's where the stakes are in my life at the moment. So that's where I would

at the moment. So that's where I would invest my my social time. I'd probably

invest my my social time. I'd probably join a bunch of business groups and try

join a bunch of business groups and try to network and stuff that like I

to network and stuff that like I eventually ended up doing, but I would

eventually ended up doing, but I would have just done it much sooner. And then

have just done it much sooner. And then from there, from that network, I would

from there, from that network, I would have looked for people basically the

have looked for people basically the people who have become my friends are

people who have become my friends are essentially um people who I've met

essentially um people who I've met through the business network who share a

through the business network who share a mutual interest. So they like watching

mutual interest. So they like watching football or they like to surf or they

football or they like to surf or they like to run. So I've gotten there. It's

like to run. So I've gotten there. It's just taken way way way longer than um it

just taken way way way longer than um it probably should have than I would have

probably should have than I would have expected.

expected. I would say

I would say another aspect of it, there's definitely

another aspect of it, there's definitely the the the marriage thing is a

the the the marriage thing is a complicator. The the child thing is a

complicator. The the child thing is a complicator. The professional thing is a

complicator. The professional thing is a complicator.

complicator. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Everybody out here in West LA is like

>> Everybody out here in West LA is like super ambitious, so they're like working

super ambitious, so they're like working crazy schedules. I'm actually I'm

crazy schedules. I'm actually I'm missing a friend's birthday party

missing a friend's birthday party because we're shooting this [ __ ]

because we're shooting this [ __ ] Airbnb thing next week.

Airbnb thing next week. >> Um

>> Um >> Mark,

>> Mark, >> I know. I know.

>> I know. I know. I can see the anger in your eyes.

>> You know, if I was the type of guy who had a CRM system for my friends

had a CRM system for my friends birthdays,

birthdays, >> you would have been on top of that.

>> you would have been on top of that. >> I wouldn't have scheduled the Airbnb

>> I wouldn't have scheduled the Airbnb thing uh during his birthday. So,

thing uh during his birthday. So, >> yeah, that that's definitely a big miss.

>> yeah, that that's definitely a big miss. I mean, fortunately, his wife is

I mean, fortunately, his wife is amazing, so she's like scheduling his

amazing, so she's like scheduling his birthday before so I can be there. I'm

birthday before so I can be there. I'm just, as you know, I'm a workaholic. So,

just, as you know, I'm a workaholic. So, it's like that's honestly the the

it's like that's honestly the the biggest interference.

biggest interference. >> Yeah. There is some there is some

>> Yeah. There is some there is some research around um like CEOs and

research around um like CEOs and entrepreneurs and stuff like that that

entrepreneurs and stuff like that that they do I it's not super solid research

they do I it's not super solid research that they have, but they do see like

that they have, but they do see like Yeah, it's kind of like a high number of

Yeah, it's kind of like a high number of uh people who own businesses, run

uh people who own businesses, run businesses do report more loneliness.

businesses do report more loneliness. Yeah. So, there's that. The other thing

Yeah. So, there's that. The other thing with you too I think is that uh you know

with you too I think is that uh you know you and and just people who run

you and and just people who run businesses in general if they're at the

businesses in general if they're at the top anyway you really you don't have

top anyway you really you don't have that work environment like no

that work environment like no >> other like most other people do like 90%

>> other like most other people do like 90% of other people do because it's not like

of other people do because it's not like you can be buddy buddy with your with

you can be buddy buddy with your with with all of your employees right there's

with all of your employees right there's a power imbalance there first of all so

a power imbalance there first of all so you never really know like are they

you never really know like are they hanging out with me

hanging out with me >> because I'm their boss or you know or

>> because I'm their boss or you know or maybe they're trying to get a leg up in

maybe they're trying to get a leg up in the company or they're you know

the company or they're you know whatever. you do a good job of like

whatever. you do a good job of like being friendly with us and like doing

being friendly with us and like doing things outside of work with us for sure.

things outside of work with us for sure. But I I imagine there's got to be some

But I I imagine there's got to be some kind of like that's got to be in the

kind of like that's got to be in the back of your mind anyway.

back of your mind anyway. >> Oh yeah. It's funny because so my my dad

>> Oh yeah. It's funny because so my my dad is a business owner as well and and I

is a business owner as well and and I remember you know I worked a few summers

remember you know I worked a few summers at his company and and he was really

at his company and and he was really close with his head sales guy and um I

close with his head sales guy and um I remember one time I was

remember one time I was >> I was hanging out with my dad and I I

>> I was hanging out with my dad and I I his sales guy everybody called him fish

his sales guy everybody called him fish and um his last name was Fishbach and um

and um his last name was Fishbach and um and I was hanging out with my dad one

and I was hanging out with my dad one day and I I said like oh you know like

day and I I said like oh you know like you're really good friends with Fishbach

you're really good friends with Fishbach and my dad kind of laughed and he's like

and my dad kind of laughed and he's like no I'm not.

no I'm not. And I was like, "What do you mean? You

And I was like, "What do you mean? You you like take him to football games and

you like take him to football games and you guys go out for drinks and you know

you guys go out for drinks and you know you do business trips together and all

you do business trips together and all this stuff like you get along great."

this stuff like you get along great." He's like, "No, no, don't get me wrong.

He's like, "No, no, don't get me wrong. Like

Like >> Fish is amazing. I really He's a great

>> Fish is amazing. I really He's a great guy."

guy." >> He's like, "I'm his boss."

>> He's like, "I'm his boss." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> It's not a friendship.

>> It's not a friendship. >> There's never going to be

>> There's never going to be >> Yeah. It can't like

>> Yeah. It can't like >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> You know, and it took me a long time to

>> You know, and it took me a long time to kind of understand that dynamic. I would

kind of understand that dynamic. I would say I believe that I I would say there's

say I believe that I I would say there's that combined, you know, so you lose

that combined, you know, so you lose kind of the workplace friendships. You

kind of the workplace friendships. You get the you if you're CEO, you're

get the you if you're CEO, you're probably working insane hours. So you

probably working insane hours. So you get that on top of it.

get that on top of it. >> But I'll say too, it's like

>> But I'll say too, it's like >> it even bleeds over into your social

>> it even bleeds over into your social life. So, um I am by no means like a

life. So, um I am by no means like a celebrity or a super famous person, but

celebrity or a super famous person, but like

like >> in my industry, I'm

>> in my industry, I'm >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> I'm very wellknown and and um and people

>> I'm very wellknown and and um and people who work in this industry and work in

who work in this industry and work in the creator industry in general or

the creator industry in general or podcasting like

podcasting like >> they know who you are. Yeah,

>> they know who you are. Yeah, >> they very much. And so there is a

>> they very much. And so there is a dynamic, you know, there are certain

dynamic, you know, there are certain rooms you go into and people start kind

rooms you go into and people start kind of buttering you up and kissing your ass

of buttering you up and kissing your ass and they're super nice and it's it's in

and they're super nice and it's it's in the back of your head. you're like, is

the back of your head. you're like, is this genuine

this genuine >> or does this person want something? And

>> or does this person want something? And uh

uh >> I've noticed that it takes me a good

>> I've noticed that it takes me a good amount of time to just trust the

amount of time to just trust the intentions of people.

intentions of people. >> I I understand that

>> I I understand that >> which which makes me sad. Um like it

>> which which makes me sad. Um like it sucks.

sucks. >> But um it it is. And then I would say

>> But um it it is. And then I would say too there's also what I've noticed too

too there's also what I've noticed too is that even people who have genuine

is that even people who have genuine intentions I think worry about coming

intentions I think worry about coming off that way.

off that way. >> And so I've noticed that with a lot of

>> And so I've noticed that with a lot of my friends that I've made out here, it

my friends that I've made out here, it took a good three or six months.

took a good three or six months. >> Yeah. Don't want to bother him. Don't

>> Yeah. Don't want to bother him. Don't want to look over eager. Don't want to

want to look over eager. Don't want to look Yeah. Like and I I I've actually

look Yeah. Like and I I I've actually noticed that I get I do think I get

noticed that I get I do think I get invited to fewer things or

invited to fewer things or you know people will casually text me

you know people will casually text me less often because of that. Yeah.

less often because of that. Yeah. >> They're like well he's probably like

>> They're like well he's probably like super busy and he's got a lot going on.

super busy and he's got a lot going on. Um

Um >> they don't want to look like a social

>> they don't want to look like a social climber or something. Right. Yeah. And

climber or something. Right. Yeah. And I've noticed it too like friends who

I've noticed it too like friends who like genuinely have major life problems

like genuinely have major life problems >> won't ask won't ask me for help because

>> won't ask won't ask me for help because they're like, "Well, you do this for a

they're like, "Well, you do this for a living, so like I don't want to bother

living, so like I don't want to bother you." And I'm like, "Dude, you're

you." And I'm like, "Dude, you're getting divorced.

getting divorced. >> I could we we should [ __ ] talk."

>> I could we we should [ __ ] talk." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Sad. Yeah.

>> Sad. Yeah. >> It's been a learning curve. I would say

>> It's been a learning curve. I would say >> this I actually wish we had done an

>> this I actually wish we had done an episode like this two years ago. It

episode like this two years ago. It probably would have saved me like six

probably would have saved me like six months of time. Um, it's there's not a

months of time. Um, it's there's not a whole lot in the episode that like was

whole lot in the episode that like was illuminating or or were things that I I

illuminating or or were things that I I didn't know or hadn't figured out, but

didn't know or hadn't figured out, but like

like >> when you put it all together

>> when you put it all together >> when you Yeah. When you put it all

>> when you Yeah. When you put it all together and and uh have like the full

together and and uh have like the full bird's eye view of it. Uh it probably

bird's eye view of it. Uh it probably would have saved me some time and some

would have saved me some time and some heartache. I will say that the thing

heartache. I will say that the thing that I'm [ __ ] terrible at is the

that I'm [ __ ] terrible at is the reaching out and following up with

reaching out and following up with people.

people. >> Yeah, that's the thing I need to get

>> Yeah, that's the thing I need to get better at.

better at. >> Repetition. It's the scaffolding on

>> Repetition. It's the scaffolding on which friendship is built is that

which friendship is built is that repetition and it's you can't

repetition and it's you can't >> those three things are a triangle. You

>> those three things are a triangle. You pull one of those out, it all crumbles

pull one of those out, it all crumbles and

and >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think I'll just make a notion

>> Yeah. I think I'll just make a notion CRM system.

CRM system. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, hey, let's try it.

>> Yeah. Okay. Well, hey, let's try it. >> Yeah, let's try it. Yeah,

>> Yeah, let's try it. Yeah, >> it's worth a shot. It's worth a shot.

>> it's worth a shot. It's worth a shot. Yeah.

Yeah. So before we wrap up here, I just want

So before we wrap up here, I just want to remind everybody that there's a PDF

to remind everybody that there's a PDF guide with everything that we've covered

guide with everything that we've covered at solpodcast.com/friendship.

at solpodcast.com/friendship. And again, if this is an area of your

And again, if this is an area of your life that you want to work on and you

life that you want to work on and you want to get it figured out, if you want

want to get it figured out, if you want to get it solved, let's say, we do have

to get it solved, let's say, we do have a membership that we corify everything

a membership that we corify everything that we're talking about here. We break

that we're talking about here. We break it down into a 30-day challenge. It's

it down into a 30-day challenge. It's guaranteed to improve your social life.

guaranteed to improve your social life. It will teach you a lot of the skills

It will teach you a lot of the skills and habits and tactics that we're

and habits and tactics that we're talking about. So, go to

talking about. So, go to membership.solvedpodcast.com.

membership.solvedpodcast.com. You can sign up there.

You can sign up there. Drew is going to come give a live Q&A

Drew is going to come give a live Q&A webinar.

webinar. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> it's going to be awesome. 8020 time. Um,

>> it's going to be awesome. 8020 time. Um, it's funny because this topic, it's

it's funny because this topic, it's interesting that this might end up being

interesting that this might end up being our longest podcast yet despite how

our longest podcast yet despite how simple it is. Like, we have done so much

simple it is. Like, we have done so much more research on on other topics. of of

more research on on other topics. of of shows. There's been so much more

shows. There's been so much more complexity for other shows than this

complexity for other shows than this one. Um yet it is a very nuanced and and

one. Um yet it is a very nuanced and and it it's simple in theory but very

it it's simple in theory but very nuanced and contextual in

nuanced and contextual in implementation.

implementation. >> Right? So in terms of 8020 I think we

>> Right? So in terms of 8020 I think we both agree

both agree the the three factors right of making

the the three factors right of making friends is paramount most important

friends is paramount most important right so proximity repetition disclosure

right so proximity repetition disclosure making sure you're hitting those things

making sure you're hitting those things consistently and regularly that is the

consistently and regularly that is the 20 that's going to drive the 80% of the

20 that's going to drive the 80% of the result on this um I think it's easy to

result on this um I think it's easy to understand that in the abstract but I

understand that in the abstract but I think there there's probably some like

think there there's probably some like high lever strategy or tactics that that

high lever strategy or tactics that that we went through that are probably

we went through that are probably worthwhile. I would say from my personal

worthwhile. I would say from my personal experience, the developing a habit of

experience, the developing a habit of reaching out of texting people,

reaching out of texting people, reconnecting with people, pinging

reconnecting with people, pinging people, asking them how they're doing,

people, asking them how they're doing, just inviting people to things, like

just inviting people to things, like that is I think that's an 8020 habit,

that is I think that's an 8020 habit, >> right? Like if you're if your default is

>> right? Like if you're if your default is to just reach out by text, if you're the

to just reach out by text, if you're the one who's initiating more often, um

one who's initiating more often, um that's probably going to pay dividends.

that's probably going to pay dividends. Um what would you add to that?

Um what would you add to that? >> Yeah. Um I mean I I would I would

>> Yeah. Um I mean I I would I would definitely f like you got to find your

definitely f like you got to find your people too, right? That's the proximity

people too, right? That's the proximity part I think and and

part I think and and you know yes you can use digital

you know yes you can use digital technology, you can use social media and

technology, you can use social media and all of that. Get it out into the real

all of that. Get it out into the real world as soon as you can and as as much

world as soon as you can and as as much as you can. Um use those tools like we

as you can. Um use those tools like we were just talking about um when we

were just talking about um when we talked about the technology. use those

talked about the technology. use those tools to find the people around you that

tools to find the people around you that that are going to be your people, right?

that are going to be your people, right? Whether that is joining a club or a a

Whether that is joining a club or a a gym or volunteer organization, whatever

gym or volunteer organization, whatever it is.

it is. >> I I really do think I I and I used to

>> I I really do think I I and I used to not think this, okay? I used to think

not think this, okay? I used to think that that's kind of like bad, not bad

that that's kind of like bad, not bad advice, but just like kind of empty

advice, but just like kind of empty advice or generic advice, but now I see

advice or generic advice, but now I see it um actually for for what it is. And

it um actually for for what it is. And now that I've done a few of those

now that I've done a few of those things, what I what I really took from

things, what I what I really took from what you said about that too,

what you said about that too, >> it doesn't have to be that thing either,

>> it doesn't have to be that thing either, right? Like I go to yoga and I meet

right? Like I go to yoga and I meet people who are interested in other

people who are interested in other things. I'm not really into yoga and the

things. I'm not really into yoga and the whole woo woo stuff and there's plenty

whole woo woo stuff and there's plenty of people at the at this place who

of people at the at this place who aren't either, right? So it's great. And

aren't either, right? So it's great. And same thing with CrossFit. It doesn't

same thing with CrossFit. It doesn't just have to be with CrossFit.

just have to be with CrossFit. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> It probably is better if you can find

>> It probably is better if you can find that obsession like you were talking

that obsession like you were talking about. But I I really think that, you

about. But I I really think that, you know, if you're start there if you're a

know, if you're start there if you're a huge like Dungeons and Dragons nerd,

huge like Dungeons and Dragons nerd, too, or whatever, like is that what it's

too, or whatever, like is that what it's called? Dungeons and Dragons.

called? Dungeons and Dragons. >> Dungeons and Dragons.

>> Dungeons and Dragons. >> I have nerd friends who do this all the

>> I have nerd friends who do this all the time, and I'm just like, God, nerd.

time, and I'm just like, God, nerd. >> Sorry, we're not all cool with you.

>> Sorry, we're not all cool with you. >> Yeah. I I think the thing the big thing

>> Yeah. I I think the thing the big thing that I took away around this is that

that I took away around this is that it's not the first interest

it's not the first interest >> that that makes it work. It's the second

>> that that makes it work. It's the second interest, right? So it's and this was

interest, right? So it's and this was the mistake that I made is I went to the

the mistake that I made is I went to the CrossFit gym and I signed up for the

CrossFit gym and I signed up for the class and I was like I'm not making

class and I was like I'm not making >> any CrossFit buddies. Yeah.

>> any CrossFit buddies. Yeah. >> Take the first interest, find the people

>> Take the first interest, find the people and then once you found those people

and then once you found those people look for the second interest in common

look for the second interest in common and then I feel like once you have that

and then I feel like once you have that second interest in common then that that

second interest in common then that that can be the base of a friendship.

can be the base of a friendship. >> Yeah. Absolutely. And leveraging any

>> Yeah. Absolutely. And leveraging any existing networks to what however loose

existing networks to what however loose they are too

they are too >> professional, familial,

>> professional, familial, >> 100% social everything.

>> 100% social everything. >> Yeah. everything anything anything you

>> Yeah. everything anything anything you can do to tilt the odds in your favor in

can do to tilt the odds in your favor in this this area. Again, we did mention

this this area. Again, we did mention it. It's a little bit of a numbers game

it. It's a little bit of a numbers game at some point.

at some point. >> Yes,

>> Yes, >> be patient with it. You're not not going

>> be patient with it. You're not not going to connect with everybody. You're not

to connect with everybody. You're not It's going to take a while, too. It's

It's going to take a while, too. It's going to take a long time. That could

going to take a long time. That could maybe be a little bit more in the

maybe be a little bit more in the disclosure part, but um a persistence

disclosure part, but um a persistence and just an intentionality around it.

and just an intentionality around it. It's not just going to happen by itself.

It's not just going to happen by itself. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Right. Like we all we all kind of

>> Right. Like we all we all kind of understand that when it comes to dating,

understand that when it comes to dating, but we think like friendship should just

but we think like friendship should just kind of happen. It's not just gonna

kind of happen. It's not just gonna happen before.

happen before. >> I think I think it's because the first

>> I think I think it's because the first 20 years of our life.

20 years of our life. >> It did happen for

>> It did happen for >> It does just happen. It does just happen

>> It does just happen. It does just happen because you are Why? Because you're in

because you are Why? Because you're in proximity with all of your peers every

proximity with all of your peers every single day. Uh you have constant

single day. Uh you have constant repetition of seeing them. Uh and it's

repetition of seeing them. Uh and it's inevitable that you're just going to

inevitable that you're just going to have a lot of disclosure as you're

have a lot of disclosure as you're growing up with people. So, it it is I I

growing up with people. So, it it is I I do think it kind of messes with us that

do think it kind of messes with us that um we we do take friendships for granted

um we we do take friendships for granted when we're young and we spend all of our

when we're young and we spend all of our time focusing on learning how to date

time focusing on learning how to date and find a partner. Uh and then when you

and find a partner. Uh and then when you get older, it it turns out that you

get older, it it turns out that you actually

actually >> you have to put just as much work into

>> you have to put just as much work into your friendships as you do your romantic

your friendships as you do your romantic relationships. So, I want to return to

relationships. So, I want to return to the the disruptors that I talked about

the the disruptors that I talked about in the the philosophical section. And I

in the the philosophical section. And I would even add a third to that list that

would even add a third to that list that we talked about as well. you know, so

we talked about as well. you know, so the first one is transactional

the first one is transactional relationships. Transactional

relationships. Transactional relationships are fine as long as it's

relationships are fine as long as it's >> you're aware of what you're doing and

>> you're aware of what you're doing and you're not too attached to the outcome.

you're not too attached to the outcome. >> Both sides are aware. Yeah.

>> Both sides are aware. Yeah. >> Both sides are aware and neither side is

>> Both sides are aware and neither side is too too emotionally invested in the

too too emotionally invested in the outcome. Transactional relationships can

outcome. Transactional relationships can work, but generally speaking, like you

work, but generally speaking, like you can't really have a long-term healthy

can't really have a long-term healthy friendship with somebody where there's

friendship with somebody where there's any sort of transactional thing going

any sort of transactional thing going on. Yeah.

on. Yeah. >> Second one is an inequality in the

>> Second one is an inequality in the relationship, right? a power dynamic, a

relationship, right? a power dynamic, a status dynamic, uh somebody who has

status dynamic, uh somebody who has authority over the other person. Like

authority over the other person. Like it's just I'm not gonna say it's

it's just I'm not gonna say it's impossible, but like it just adds a lot

impossible, but like it just adds a lot of complication. Um and then the third

of complication. Um and then the third one I'm going to say is a lack of

one I'm going to say is a lack of stakes. This comes back to to what David

stakes. This comes back to to what David Brooks talked about, which is, you know,

Brooks talked about, which is, you know, we we tend to bond with people that that

we we tend to bond with people that that there's some sort of there's certain

there's some sort of there's certain amount of friction or overcoming of of

amount of friction or overcoming of of something to to be with. And the only

something to to be with. And the only way that a a friendship is going to like

way that a a friendship is going to like really feel valuable is that um is that

really feel valuable is that um is that there's something to lose and that that

there's something to lose and that that there's there's like it's there's

there's there's like it's there's meaning behind it, there's something

meaning behind it, there's something that matters to it, you know? And so

that matters to it, you know? And so it's I think that's why when it comes to

it's I think that's why when it comes to the interest thing, like don't just pick

the interest thing, like don't just pick a thing that you're like, "Oh, well, you

a thing that you're like, "Oh, well, you know, I I uh I played golf once. Maybe

know, I I uh I played golf once. Maybe I'll play golf again." like really find

I'll play golf again." like really find something you care about and that

something you care about and that matters to you and uh has some meaning

matters to you and uh has some meaning and significance behind it because then

and significance behind it because then when you find other people who also

when you find other people who also >> it carries meaning and significance for

>> it carries meaning and significance for um it it does add some stakes to the

um it it does add some stakes to the friendship. making friends is inevitably

friendship. making friends is inevitably like there are periods of awkwardness

like there are periods of awkwardness and it does get dull at times and people

and it does get dull at times and people do say things that annoy you and um

do say things that annoy you and um people show up late and cancel plans and

people show up late and cancel plans and you can't find parking and like all this

you can't find parking and like all this [ __ ] happens, right? So, there's always

[ __ ] happens, right? So, there's always going to be friction and the only way

going to be friction and the only way you're going to really tolerate that

you're going to really tolerate that friction is if you feel like

friction is if you feel like you feel like there it matters.

you feel like there it matters. >> Yeah. You're invested.

>> Yeah. You're invested. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. To some degree. For sure. Yeah.

>> Yeah. To some degree. For sure. Yeah. and and becoming more invested. So,

and and becoming more invested. So, we'll get to the disclosure part. I

we'll get to the disclosure part. I think the last part of that triangle

think the last part of that triangle that we've talked about, I I think it's

that we've talked about, I I think it's being being the one to initiate that and

being being the one to initiate that and showing a little vulnerability there is

showing a little vulnerability there is important. Like we talked about in tit

important. Like we talked about in tit fortat, what's the first line of code in

fortat, what's the first line of code in tit for tat? It's cooperate.

tit for tat? It's cooperate. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> If there's ever any question around

>> If there's ever any question around like, oh, is this person are we going to

like, oh, is this person are we going to get along or something? I'll usually be

get along or something? I'll usually be the one to be like, hey, we should grab

the one to be like, hey, we should grab a drink. Hey, come over and do this.

a drink. Hey, come over and do this. >> Lead with that, I would say. And then

>> Lead with that, I would say. And then just like in the tit for tat too, you

just like in the tit for tat too, you you you there's some forgiveness like I

you you there's some forgiveness like I was talking about the the the most

was talking about the the the most successful one is a generous tit for

successful one is a generous tit for tat. There's a little forgiveness in

tat. There's a little forgiveness in there too. Forgive forgive them when

there too. Forgive forgive them when they they might mess up or they might

they they might mess up or they might say something stupid or annoying like

say something stupid or annoying like you said.

you said. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um that goes a long way. And and as a

>> Um that goes a long way. And and as a part of this too,

part of this too, >> I I can't emphasize this enough again.

>> I I can't emphasize this enough again. Drop the scorecard.

Drop the scorecard. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Just drop it. I don't care what your

>> Just drop it. I don't care what your friend didn't do for you and you did for

friend didn't do for you and you did for them. That is just that's that is no

them. That is just that's that is no basis for a friendship at all. You're

basis for a friendship at all. You're never going to

never going to >> you're never going to get back what you

>> you're never going to get back what you put into it. Like you're going to die.

put into it. Like you're going to die. You're going to die someday, right?

You're going to die someday, right? You're going to just be dead as [ __ ]

You're going to just be dead as [ __ ] You're not taking anything with you. So

You're not taking anything with you. So stop like accounting for all of it,

stop like accounting for all of it, right? Like I it's just like

right? Like I it's just like relationships are way way more important

relationships are way way more important than that.

than that. >> And I would count a lot of, you know, we

>> And I would count a lot of, you know, we talked a little bit about the political

talked a little bit about the political [ __ ] that's going on. Like I I do

[ __ ] that's going on. Like I I do see a lot of that as an extension of the

see a lot of that as an extension of the scorecard. It's like, oh, you're this

scorecard. It's like, oh, you're this type of person, so you owe society this

type of person, so you owe society this for this, and you're this privilege

for this, and you're this privilege because you're this type of whatever

because you're this type of whatever orientation and color and ethnicity and

orientation and color and ethnicity and whatnot. Like,

whatnot. Like, >> your side did this, and so we did this,

>> your side did this, and so we did this, yeah, but your side did that.

yeah, but your side did that. >> Like, talk about like a how to ruin a

>> Like, talk about like a how to ruin a social life and as quickly as possible

social life and as quickly as possible is to start seeing groups in terms of

is to start seeing groups in terms of what they owe

what they owe >> you and and other people. Like, it just

>> you and and other people. Like, it just it is completely antithetical. I mean I

it is completely antithetical. I mean I I so I would expand that to just broader

I so I would expand that to just broader like drop the assumptions about people.

like drop the assumptions about people. Drop the assumption that you know what

Drop the assumption that you know what type of person this is that you know

type of person this is that you know where they come from. You know oh like

where they come from. You know oh like >> yeah that's not the type of person that

>> yeah that's not the type of person that I usually like and I don't like how she

I usually like and I don't like how she acts this way and those sorts of people

acts this way and those sorts of people are cheesy or weird or whatever. You

are cheesy or weird or whatever. You know let the judgments go.

know let the judgments go. >> Yeah. Very very last thing that I'm

>> Yeah. Very very last thing that I'm going to say anyway

going to say anyway >> and I guess I already said it but say it

>> and I guess I already said it but say it again. The patience part.

again. The patience part. >> Yes. 50 hours to make like the

>> Yes. 50 hours to make like the acquaintance, 90 to make a friend, 200

acquaintance, 90 to make a friend, 200 to make a close friend. That's a lot of

to make a close friend. That's a lot of time. Yeah.

time. Yeah. >> And and that's a there's a lot of time

>> And and that's a there's a lot of time for error in that, too. Um and a lot of

for error in that, too. Um and a lot of time for you to grow apart a little bit

time for you to grow apart a little bit and come back together. You have to be

and come back together. You have to be very very patient. Friendships take a

very very patient. Friendships take a lot of time.

lot of time. >> Yeah, they do.

>> Yeah, they do. >> They do.

>> They do. >> All right. Tradeoffs. I think this one's

>> All right. Tradeoffs. I think this one's going to be interesting because I feel

going to be interesting because I feel like

like >> this is an area of your life that you're

>> this is an area of your life that you're very strong in and this is a area of my

very strong in and this is a area of my life I feel like I'm weak in. And so I

life I feel like I'm weak in. And so I think it'll be interesting to hear what

think it'll be interesting to hear what sort of tradeoffs each of us have made

sort of tradeoffs each of us have made >> to put ourselves in this situation.

>> to put ourselves in this situation. >> Do you want to go first or you should I

>> Do you want to go first or you should I go first?

go first? >> Um you go you go first.

>> Um you go you go first. >> Mine's easy. I like my social life has

>> Mine's easy. I like my social life has definitely suffered because I am so

definitely suffered because I am so focused on work and I'm always busy and

focused on work and I'm always busy and I have tons I'm I'm very

I have tons I'm I'm very >> I have lots of goals and I'm very

>> I have lots of goals and I'm very ambitious which I love about myself but

ambitious which I love about myself but I do see like the

I do see like the >> there's a bit of a thin social life um

>> there's a bit of a thin social life um as a side effect of that for sure.

as a side effect of that for sure. >> The first thing I would have said was

>> The first thing I would have said was time. So, and that's what you're talking

time. So, and that's what you're talking about is that um

about is that um >> I I put a lot of time in into

>> I I put a lot of time in into friendships now.

friendships now. >> I think like I haven't put as that time

>> I think like I haven't put as that time into my like romantic romantic

into my like romantic romantic relationships as much in the recent

relationships as much in the recent years at least anyway. And so, I've kind

years at least anyway. And so, I've kind of been able to compensate with that

of been able to compensate with that like I said, but it does take a lot of

like I said, but it does take a lot of time. There was, you know, one time when

time. There was, you know, one time when we were doing the old podcast, we kind

we were doing the old podcast, we kind of talked about friendship.

of talked about friendship. >> I went back like I there was a time

>> I went back like I there was a time where I was staying out here in LA and I

where I was staying out here in LA and I went back home over I flew back home

went back home over I flew back home over the weekend.

over the weekend. >> You flew back for a dinner? for a

>> You flew back for a dinner? for a dinner. For a dinner for with friends.

dinner. For a dinner for with friends. >> The team thought

>> The team thought >> it was an anniversary dinner.

>> it was an anniversary dinner. >> The team thought you were crazy, by the

>> The team thought you were crazy, by the way.

way. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> which you maybe you are, but you're

>> which you maybe you are, but you're definitely a good friend. You're If

definitely a good friend. You're If you're crazy, you're you're definitely a

you're crazy, you're you're definitely a good friend.

good friend. >> Those are two two of my good friends.

>> Those are two two of my good friends. Those those same friends, though, we

Those those same friends, though, we have dinner like once a week, probably

have dinner like once a week, probably something like that. I'll go to their

something like that. I'll go to their house and have dinner once a week. And

house and have dinner once a week. And it's usually there's nothing exciting

it's usually there's nothing exciting happens to it. We have some dinner. We

happens to it. We have some dinner. We talk about mundane things, but it takes

talk about mundane things, but it takes the time

the time >> away from other things that I do. And

>> away from other things that I do. And then I Yeah, we go on trips. We do all

then I Yeah, we go on trips. We do all that. The time thing is is is for real.

that. The time thing is is is for real. Yeah.

Yeah. >> Um and yeah, you got to give up some TV

>> Um and yeah, you got to give up some TV time or some scrolling time or what work

time or some scrolling time or what work time to advancing your career. Yeah.

time to advancing your career. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. >> Um

>> Um >> it's a major major issue.

>> it's a major major issue. >> I would say marriage and kids is a

>> I would say marriage and kids is a trade-off. Not to say that you can't

trade-off. Not to say that you can't have friends if you're married and have

have friends if you're married and have kids, but it it it changes the equation.

kids, but it it it changes the equation. It changes your social life equation

It changes your social life equation >> quite a bit. It's your partner becomes a

>> quite a bit. It's your partner becomes a huge factor in your social life. Um, and

huge factor in your social life. Um, and then if you have kids, the kids become a

then if you have kids, the kids become a huge factor in your social life as well.

huge factor in your social life as well. So, um, I would I would throw that in

So, um, I would I would throw that in there as as a trade-off.

there as as a trade-off. >> All of my friends who have kids have

>> All of my friends who have kids have have definitely said that to me. They're

have definitely said that to me. They're like, like we've had friendships that

like, like we've had friendships that have just gone away since we've had

have just gone away since we've had kids. Like I I'm still around and our

kids. Like I I'm still around and our other friends that we still hang out

other friends that we still hang out with share, but they're like there's

with share, but they're like there's some people who just aren't around

some people who just aren't around anymore. Yeah. So, yeah.

anymore. Yeah. So, yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. We're at the end end

>> Yeah. Absolutely. We're at the end end of the episode.

of the episode. What was your biggest takeaway from

What was your biggest takeaway from prepping and recording this?

prepping and recording this? >> I maybe kind of two I guess one of them

>> I maybe kind of two I guess one of them we just kind of talked about which was I

we just kind of talked about which was I now feel more of a personal

now feel more of a personal responsibility actually um to kind of be

responsibility actually um to kind of be the initiator and like I'm I'm we were

the initiator and like I'm I'm we were talking about this off camera a little

talking about this off camera a little bit. I I'm just somebody who kind of

bit. I I'm just somebody who kind of makes friends where I go um and I'm very

makes friends where I go um and I'm very fortunate that I've kind of always been

fortunate that I've kind of always been that way. been able to kind of fit in

that way. been able to kind of fit in with different groups and empathize with

with different groups and empathize with different people pretty easily. I feel

different people pretty easily. I feel like anyway what this taught me because

like anyway what this taught me because I knew there's a loneliness crisis going

I knew there's a loneliness crisis going on. I knew, you know, but I kind of had

on. I knew, you know, but I kind of had the same as you. It's easy. It's these

the same as you. It's easy. It's these three things and this is all you got to

three things and this is all you got to do. It's actually much much harder than

do. It's actually much much harder than that. And I feel more of a

that. And I feel more of a responsibility to the people in my

responsibility to the people in my community to be like kind of one of

community to be like kind of one of those hubs, right?

those hubs, right? >> To to bring uh people together. I I do

>> To to bring uh people together. I I do think, you know, and I I have spare

think, you know, and I I have spare time. I have all these privileges that I

time. I have all these privileges that I I can use to help other people out and I

I can use to help other people out and I feel more of a responsibility for that

feel more of a responsibility for that now. For sure.

now. For sure. >> I definitely think we talked at lunch

>> I definitely think we talked at lunch about how it was funny like both

about how it was funny like both prepping for this episode and recording

prepping for this episode and recording this episode. Um like listening to you

this episode. Um like listening to you talk about how to make friends. It

talk about how to make friends. It reminds me of like the like the hot girl

reminds me of like the like the hot girl talking about how to date a guy. Like

talking about how to date a guy. Like >> it's like well clearly this has never

>> it's like well clearly this has never been a problem for you because like I

been a problem for you because like I could just tell like you didn't have the

could just tell like you didn't have the context of of knowing what it was like

context of of knowing what it was like to not have friends or

to not have friends or >> I was I was so excited to do this

>> I was I was so excited to do this episode and then I'm like oh [ __ ] like I

episode and then I'm like oh [ __ ] like I don't really know necessarily what to

don't really know necessarily what to say.

say. >> Yeah. Um so it's been interesting

>> Yeah. Um so it's been interesting watching you. I think this is an area

watching you. I think this is an area that you have like a natural talent or a

that you have like a natural talent or a natural gift. You know you've been

natural gift. You know you've been blessed in some way. Um and so so that's

blessed in some way. Um and so so that's been interesting to see. I I have not I

been interesting to see. I I have not I mean I I wouldn't say I've struggled to

mean I I wouldn't say I've struggled to make friends throughout my life, but

make friends throughout my life, but like I've

like I've >> I was never amazing at it. Like it it

>> I was never amazing at it. Like it it was never it never came supernaturally

was never it never came supernaturally to me. I definitely had to put some

to me. I definitely had to put some effort into it and um

effort into it and um >> definitely had my fair share of toxic

>> definitely had my fair share of toxic friendships over the years.

friendships over the years. >> Um I I would say the biggest thing that

>> Um I I would say the biggest thing that I took away from this is the patience

I took away from this is the patience piece. And again, it wasn't that I

piece. And again, it wasn't that I didn't know that. It's just like

didn't know that. It's just like prepping for this episode really drove

prepping for this episode really drove that home of like especially like the 50

that home of like especially like the 50 hour, 90 hour, 200 hour. I was like I

hour, 90 hour, 200 hour. I was like I was kind of when I saw that I was like

was kind of when I saw that I was like okay how many of my friends in LA have I

okay how many of my friends in LA have I spent 50 hours with and I was and I was

spent 50 hours with and I was and I was like I don't even like maybe two one

like I don't even like maybe two one >> I I've been here three and a half years

>> I I've been here three and a half years you know and so that was just a little

you know and so that was just a little bit eye opening and then I would I would

bit eye opening and then I would I would say too the the um you know just the the

say too the the um you know just the the the trade-off the opportunity cost like

the trade-off the opportunity cost like the the instant gratification piece like

the the instant gratification piece like it it's definitely for me uh you know I

it it's definitely for me uh you know I will work like a 12-h hour day. I'll

will work like a 12-h hour day. I'll come home, I'll get a text message

come home, I'll get a text message inviting me to something and my first

inviting me to something and my first reaction is like, "Dude, I don't want to

reaction is like, "Dude, I don't want to get off this couch." And it's really

get off this couch." And it's really it's it's I've had to consciously put

it's it's I've had to consciously put effort into saying yes to those things

effort into saying yes to those things and making space for those things. And

and making space for those things. And it's something like you have to figure

it's something like you have to figure out something that works for you.

out something that works for you. >> If it doesn't come naturally,

>> If it doesn't come naturally, >> then you need to create some sort of

>> then you need to create some sort of method. Um, I remember talking to a a

method. Um, I remember talking to a a friend who said that he would like set

friend who said that he would like set up recurring calendar reminders to reach

up recurring calendar reminders to reach out to certain people and he was like,

out to certain people and he was like, "Yeah, half the time it's like I just

"Yeah, half the time it's like I just saw the person, so I just delete the

saw the person, so I just delete the reminder or whatever." But he's like,

reminder or whatever." But he's like, "Sometimes I go, you know, if I go a

"Sometimes I go, you know, if I go a month without reaching out to somebody

month without reaching out to somebody or touching base with them, that

or touching base with them, that reminder is a lifesaver because it it

reminder is a lifesaver because it it like keeps me

like keeps me >> connected." So, I I do feel like as much

>> connected." So, I I do feel like as much as I [ __ ] on uh productivity hackers and

as I [ __ ] on uh productivity hackers and um

um like optimizers.

like optimizers. >> This is an area of my life that left to

>> This is an area of my life that left to my own devices and with like armed with

my own devices and with like armed with the full knowledge and understanding of

the full knowledge and understanding of what my choices

what my choices >> are are creating for myself. Uh it is

>> are are creating for myself. Uh it is I've not been able to crack it. So may

I've not been able to crack it. So may maybe the next step is to uh create that

maybe the next step is to uh create that notion dashboard.

notion dashboard. >> I there's going to be a certain person

>> I there's going to be a certain person who say oh my god you have to do that

who say oh my god you have to do that like that's you shouldn't have to do

like that's you shouldn't have to do that. But I I think there's a certain

that. But I I think there's a certain type of person especially if you're a

type of person especially if you're a systematizer like I was saying.

systematizer like I was saying. >> Yeah. And if your time is scarce as

>> Yeah. And if your time is scarce as [ __ ] like that's the other thing is

[ __ ] like that's the other thing is it's like one thing I say to my wife all

it's like one thing I say to my wife all the time. I'm like, if it's on my

the time. I'm like, if it's on my calendar, it'll get done. If it's not on

calendar, it'll get done. If it's not on my calendar, it's never going to get

my calendar, it's never going to get done because there's so little space

done because there's so little space between, you know, work and very

between, you know, work and very important video games. Uh,

important video games. Uh, >> all right. Well, we made it to the end.

>> all right. Well, we made it to the end. >> We did it.

>> We did it. >> Check out Solve membership. It's at

>> Check out Solve membership. It's at membership.solvepodcast.com.

membership.solvepodcast.com. Join it. Become our friends. Be friends

Join it. Become our friends. Be friends with the people in there. It's an

with the people in there. It's an amazing community. It's amazing group.

amazing community. It's amazing group. And like I said, wears courseify the

And like I said, wears courseify the podcast every single month. We give you

podcast every single month. We give you 30-day challenges, exercises, check-ins,

30-day challenges, exercises, check-ins, live webinars. Oh my god, I'm getting

live webinars. Oh my god, I'm getting emotional just talking about it. Um,

emotional just talking about it. Um, please subscribe, leave a review if you

please subscribe, leave a review if you have not. Uh, it's the best way for the

have not. Uh, it's the best way for the the word to get out about this show. Uh,

the word to get out about this show. Uh, leave a comment if you enjoyed the the

leave a comment if you enjoyed the the episode. And Drew and I will see you

episode. And Drew and I will see you next time. Bye, guys.

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Making Friends as an Adult, Solved