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In conversation: George R.R. Martin with Dan Jones FULL EVENT

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This content is a discussion with author George R.R. Martin about his writing process, the evolution of his "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, the historical inspirations behind his world-building, and the development of related media like "Fire & Blood" and HBO's television adaptations.

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ladies and gentlemen thank you for your

patience in waiting for us tonight thank

you for that amazing welcome for a man

who as it transpires really does need no

introduction I'm gonna go ahead and say

it one of my favorite authors one of the

great American authors thank you one of

the great fantasy history horror you

name the genre he's done it he's

mastered in this book fire and blood the

narrative nonfiction history form which

is infuriating for me because I've based

my entire career on doing that

cast your mind back if you will a

quarter of a century now I suppose take

us back to the origins of when you

started thinking about Westeros I mean

did you expect that it would end up with

with Awards and multi-million sales all

over the world

no no and and for a long time it didn't

look as though it would it's when I

speak to young writers and I'm sure

there are some people in this auditorium

who dream of writing themselves some of

you probably are writing yourselves

maybe even submitting your stories and

novels I always stress what a uncertain

profession it is I mean if you're

someone who needs security don't become

a writer it's it's a profession for for

gamblers you can be very hot one minute

and the next minute your publishers

dropped you and your agent isn't

returning your calls and all you can do

I think in what what I've always tried

to do throughout my career is write the

best book you can and turn it over to

your agent and your publisher hope they

do a good job getting it out and hope

that the audience finds it and likes it

with you know Game of Thrones came along

after I had already been in the business

for quite some time I sold my first

story in 1971

I didn't start writing Game of Thrones

until 1991 so I was already 20 years in

as a writer a novelist

also a

vision writer/producer and it came out

in in 96 publishers paid me quite a

substantial sum of money for it

especially thankfully my British

publishers but then when when it first

came out it did not set the world on

fire it did okay but it didn't it wasn't

a breakthrough bestseller that the that

people thought it would be but it built

and that's the you know promotion is

great advertising is great you need all

of those to really help launch a book

but the best is word-of-mouth and when

when the people would read the first

book told their friends about it and and

those friends told other friends and

people that started discussing it online

and the primitive version of the

internet that existed back then and

finally when the second book came out it

did better than the first one and that

was the first book of mine to hit any

bestseller west not necessarily the

Nielsen list which I'm sure I didn't

touch in in 1996 in 1999 but we were on

the New York Times bestseller list with

the second book we were on in number 13

for one week and then we were off the

list but the third book did better than

that the fourth book debuted at number

one on the New York Times list and

stayed there for a while and you know

then the TV show came along and after

that I kind of moved into the

bestsellers permanently and built a nice

guesthouse there and so it's it's it's

really I think fans telling other fans

and people sharing that that that builds

up the momentum but I know I had no idea

that would ever be this big I hope that

the books would be were received that

they would sell well enough for me to

continue to write them and that people

would like them and thankfully they have

now as you said by that point you'd

written extensively in science fiction

genre you'd written some horror if you

think about fever dream you've worked in

television as a writer and a producer

where did this world come from I was

reading a letter by Tolkien this week

which he wrote in in the 1950s about his

you know his fantasy world of elves and Hobbit

Hobbit

on and Tolkien said in the letter this

stuff began with me i mean i do not

remember a time when i was not building it

i've been at it since i could write I

mean was that your experience with this

material had you had you been

percolating it for years or did it come

to you in a sort of flash what was the

process I published my first novel in

1977 science fiction novel dying in

white and I had published four novels

three of them three of them had done

increasingly well the fourth novel the

Armageddon rag although it got me quite

a substantial advance was a commercial

failure so I had to go out and Hollywood

for ten years I did not have any

immediate script assignments in

television or film so I thought well

okay it's been a few years since I wrote

a novel I will begin one and I started

writing a science fiction novel called

Avalon which was part of my Thousand

worlds future history that I'd written a

lot of stories about in them in the 70s

and I was going well I'd been thinking

about that one percolating that one for

some years but then one day suddenly

this chapter came to me almost like

preformed in my head and it was the

chapter where brand finds to the dire

wolf pups in the summer snow it came to

me so vividly that I knew I had to write

it so I I put 'evil on the side I put it

back in a drawer and I I sat down to

write this chapter I didn't know what it

was part of was a standalone short story

was it part of a book by the time I

finished that chapter and only took me

two or three days I already knew what

the next chapter had to be so I went on

I wrote that and I wrote the one after

that and so it all started it all

started building for me in the summer of

1991 and I think I wrote about a hundred

pages that summer and then Hollywood

kicked up again suddenly my agent sold a

television pilot for me so I put Game of

Thrones in the drawer as well and went

out and did a pilot and then I did some

backup scripts of the pilot and I did

another pilot I wrote a feature film

none of them ever got made it was like

three years until I returned to Game of

Thrones but you know

when I did it was like I'd put it down

yesterday which was hugely huge for me

because you know from periodically I

take out those pages of Avalon that I

also put a sudden 91 and they're ice

cold I have no idea where I was going or

what I was doing it's all faded away but

it did not do that on Game of Thrones

the book had such a cause of me so deep

the characters I guess I'd been thinking

about them in the back of my head all

those intervening years we've been doing

other stuff so I got right back into it

in in 93 and 94 and then we we sold it

and the rest is imaginary history and so

is that where it starts for you with the

characters first and then you build a

world around them but it did it start

with the Starks in this case in that

case I started with a scene a scene and

as I wrote the scene I learned who the

Caroline I mean I knew it's hard to

remember now after all these years

like something like almost 30 years but

um I knew the protagonists of that scene

had to be a young boy who wouldn't

really quite understand everything that

was going on and I knew he was part of a

large family I knew I wanted I wanted

the dire wolf pups found I wanted the

found in the summer snow that phrase was

there right from the beginning I don't

know where it came from but I knew they

it was the summer snows and that put me

on a line to the unsteadiness of the

seasons and there's something wrong in

this world with our normal seasons that

you're getting snow in the middle of

summer I've often said that there are

two two types of writers two archetypes

if you will the architect and the

gardener and the architect writes books

the way an architect plans a house I

mean an architect knows how many rooms

they're going to be and and what the

roof is going to be like and where the

plumbing goes and where the bathrooms

are and how is it heated as it forced

there he did is it baseboard heated is

it electrical he knows everything it's

all there on blueprints

planned before single-board is purchased

or a single nail is driven the gardener

digs a hole in the ground and throws in

a seed and waters it and he hopes

something comes up now he knows

generally what's gonna come up he knows

whether he plants at a an acorn for an

oak tree or a tomato plant to get some

tomatoes for the summer but there's a

lot of details he doesn't know you know

it may not grow at all it may grow a

little and then die it may you know go

wild the chipmunk may eat it during the

night you don't know obviously I don't

think any writer is a hundred percent

architect or a hundred percent gardener

but I'm at least 97% gardener and that I

think I have that in common with Tolkien

you know when he set out to write Lord

of the Rings it was supposed to be a

sequel to The Hobbit well let's have

another Hobbit story another little

adventure of the hobbits like like the

one you did with Bilbo and he said the

tale grew in the telling and indeed it

did it grew grew to something much

bigger than they thought when I started

out and mine has done that same thing

you've going back to a game of Thrones

you know when you read those first

chapters that you know you've described

writing in in the early 90s there I was

very struck with how much of the history

of this world you seemed to have already

written things that you know are

recounted in greater depth and detail in

fire and blood seemed you know Aegon's

conquest the beginning how did this

world come about what were its major

political turning points and there

that's reflected it seems to me as a

reader through even when I read the

early Duncan egg stuff you know the

hedge Knight again we've got this really

strong sense of the history of the realm

of the Blackfyre rebellion sort of

hanging in the background how much of

that history did you have to map as you

went along in order to fill out the

world well I know none of it when I

began I it's been a simultaneous process

you know I wrote that first chapter and

you know names came to me and all

I had I had some vague sense and then

when I wrote the second chapter or the

King is coming where is he coming from

at some point at some point in that

process I said hmm I better have a map

so I got out of people piece piece of

typing paper and and you know initially

I found a map of Ireland and turned it

upside down and I put that in but I said

well I don't want it to be too visible

so I'll change some of it and then I

said I can't fit it all on this map so

I'll need another piece of typing paper

so you got the South on one piece and

the north on the other and I gradually

filled them in as I went and all that

and it was the same with the Kings and

people would occasionally mentioned the

king or the old king and Aegon the

conquerer well I better sit down at some

point figure out who these Kings are so

I so I won't contradict my and I made up

a list of however mentor garyun Kings

there are and dates for them and trying

to vary them and at first it was just a

list of names but as I got deeper and

deeper into it even as I'm writing about

the present day characters the the past

characters the background characters are

achieving more and more reality in in my

head and the world got progressively

more complicated we've had some

questions which I'm going to feed in

throughout this conversation and one of

them kind of these are from some some of

them from people in the audience some of

them are from social media followers and

one of them sort of pertains to what

you're talking about this is a question

from Adrian Maduro who says how is your

workspace organized to write a song of

ice and fire do you have a corkboard

like in police investigations where

you've noted all the targaryen x' and

the and all the phrase versus Adrian

give us a physical sense of how you

write and where you write well I I don't

have a corkboard

I have maps now web is there's been a

beautiful map book called the lands of

Ice and Fire so I printed out those

large scale maps and I keep them around

me so I can refer it to the maps from

time to time most of the stuff is

actually in my head I do have computer files

files

you know with timelines on them and that

I've put together over the years and

bits of this and bits of that that I can

consult from time again it is sometimes

a daunting task more so nowadays then

when I began back in 1991 because the

world has become so much bigger and it's

become so much more complex in in many

ways I followed the template of Tolkien

you know if you look at Lord of the

Rings everything begins in the Shire and

with the with the hobbits and then as

they leave the Shire they make it to

Rivendell and they meet some more people

they pick up Strider they pick up the

rest of the Fellowship but then from

that point they start to split off first

they split into two groups and then the

two groups put into three groups and etc

well I followed more or less the same

map but I mean if you if you look at

Game of Thrones

everybody except Danny is together in

Winterfell in the beginning all the

viewpoint characters there and but then

they start splitting and Danny is still

off by herself on another continent but

you know some of my people go to King's

Landing some of them stay in in

Winterfell and then the people go to

sick King's Landing gets separated from

each other and they go and different and

every time a character goes off on a

different tangent they meet other

supporting characters so at this point

I'm really writing not a novel but

twelve intertwined novels and each

character has is in a different place

with their own antagonists their own

friends their own secondary and tertiary

surrounding them and yes that is very

difficult to keep in my head I maybe

should have organized it all better when

I began back in 1991 but

I never thought it would get to that I

mean remember I'd written I'd written

four novels before this Armageddon rag

fever dream when Haven with least a

total dying at a life I've never had any

problems keeping those characters in my

head I didn't need corkboards or

anything I just remembered it all I had

no idea though that when I got into this

that the size the that it would

eventually become unfortunately you know

we it's the age of computers we have

search and replace functions and I I can

I can load up you know my my giant

Yantic file and said okay what what did

I ever say about this character and I go

through even though I make mistakes as

and my fans like you people and even

more obsessive people elsewhere are

always eager to point out whenever I've

made a mistake i i have particular

trouble with the color of people's eyes

and and rather famously I have a horse

to change his gender between the first

and second books it's I don't have it's

hard to do a search and replace for the

sex of a horse so but you know these

these errors do they're sneaking do you

ever find you've pet you sort of painted

yourself into a corner and you've set up

a part of the world that then impedes

your story tone yeah that is the

disadvantage of being a gardener

you know the architect never finds

himself building closed rooms that go

nowhere but the gardener sometimes

traipse down the branch and finds

himself sitting all the way at the out

at the end realizing he can't get from

that branch anywhere else so sometimes I

do go down byways and say no I think I

took the wrong turn back like three

chapters ago let me rewrite these

chapters or in one case or remove these

chapters I never destroy them I keep

them on my computer in case I see a way

to put them in later there's always that

there's rather famously from from the

book that was published as with dragons

I had a chapter where Tyrion was was

moving down the river river rowing and

the shy made and and I wrote this

chapter where he meets a character

called the shrouded Lord and it's a it's

a really good chapter I mean I like some

chapters more than others this is a

terrific chapter but it it said

absolutely dead end admitted what enough

the dead end but introduces like three

additional layers of complication that I

didn't think I actually needed but I

liked it so much I kept trying to fit it

in you know at first I presented it

straight and then I said oh I can't fit

it now presented as a dream Tyrion has a

dream and he dreams that this happened

to him and it has portents and then I

split it all him into like eight dreams

and every tyrion chapter he dreamed a

little bit of it and and finally I gave

up and said I can't I have to rip out

all this stuff it doesn't it doesn't do

me any good someday maybe I have when I

finished a whole book I'll publish that

that lost chapter is a little standalone

there's a question here from again from

somebody I think who may be in the

orders from crystal Phillips who says

are there any scenes in A Song of Ice

and Fire that you look back on and smile

because they were just so much fun to

write I mean that sounds like one but

it's not in a sum of ice and fire are

there any that you you know you

mentioned that the the first scene with

bran are there any that really just get

you would give you a tingle when you

look back on them there are certainly

scenes that I that I remember but they

tend not to be the ones that are fun to

write they tend to be happy the ones

they're painful to write I mean the

hardest thing I ever wrote was to read

wedding scene and in a Storm of Swords

and I knew that was coming I was enough

of a architect there that I was I was

building toward that scene I've been

building therefore that scene since the

first book but when I actually reached

that saying it was too painful to write

I couldn't write it I skipped over it I

should say it occurs about two-thirds of

the way through Storm of Swords I

skipped over it and I wrote the scenes

that follow

I finished the entire book and I hadn't

written that scene yet that was the last

thing I wrote for

stormer swords I had to go back and make

myself write it and it it's still

emotionally you become very attached to

these characters believe it or not I

don't have the reputation for gleefully

killing some of them but that's not

entirely deserved sometimes it's very

painful for me to kill them they're

there you know my children for good or

ill so that was a tough scene to write

I do periodically enjoy you know if I

write something that I'm particularly

proud of that or it really is that I

think is a good piece of writing that is

vivid and evocative then that gives me

pleasure but it might not necessarily be

the scenes that that you guys would

particularly enjoy some of them are just

quiet things about oh I have to describe

this landscape and I sweat and we write

it and rewrite it and I finally give

yeah this is a great description of

three guys writing through a grassy

meadow I've gotten the sights and the

sounds and the smells of the scene right

- to put you there but it's not

necessarily anything that ordinary

readers or reviewers who ever oh my god

there was such a beautiful description

of the grassy meadow on page 314 so but

at what point did you start to write

outside the confines of the song and I

solid ice and fire cycle and I'm

thinking here of the dunk and egg hedge

Knight stuff because that seemed I mean

that was published quite early in was

that conceived as part of this story

that just didn't fit how did that come

about that was Robert Silverberg fault

Robert Silverberg decided he was going

to do an anthology called legends which

consisted of original stories he wanted

ten fantasy writers each writing a story

in their fantasy world an original story

never before published

and he was offering what was quite a

substantial advance er I think a record

events for story in any any anthology so

and his lineup was amazing it was you

know Terry Pratchett and Stephen King

were going to be in this and Anne

McCaffrey and well you know all of the

best-selling fantasy writers and I was

just getting into my series then I

really didn't belong in that number but

I knew that I wanted to be in this book

so when he invited me to be in this book

I lethally accepted and then I had to

think well what am I gonna write for

this book I'm still in the middle of

writing I think I was still in the

middle of writing Clash of Kings I mean

the only book out then was with Game of

Thrones well am I gonna write a story

about Tyrion or ru or Jon Snow no I

can't do that I have to save that but a

book I have to do this I have to do a

prequel so I started thinking about my

history and what would be a good area to

write it and I came up with the the

duncan egg stuff I was particularly

attracted that whole story is built

around a tournament and I love medieval

tournaments and reading about them

writing about them there there's of

course some of them in the main the main

books but this this was an opportunity

in a time of peace not war to look at a

medieval teal tournament with all its

pageantry and the jousting in the combat

and reveal a little of Westerosi history

and like like many other things it grew

I mean it did would I garden that I

started it and suddenly it was it was

all there actually I was so long doing

it that Bob tried to throw me out of the

book I was I was late delivering Clash

of Kings which everybody knew about and

he was approaching he'd gotten a lot of

money for this anthology and he wanted

to deliver it on a deadline so all the

stories would do at the end of the year

on December 31st and he said George I

hear you so late from the book I can't

afford my book to be late so

I'm dropping you from the book and we're

gonna replace you and I said no you're

not I have a contract here and I'm not

late yet you may think I'm gonna be late

but I'm not late yet so you have to keep

me in the book so that's why legends

actually has eleven stories in it not

the original 10 he actually replaced me

and found another guy but I refuse to be

replaced and I wrote the story and

goddamn it I got a tomb on December 31st

which is at the same time as I

understand it like five of the stories

came in so I'm not the only one that

writer who who pushes things and

actually I think that story that was one

of the best decisions I ever made there

was because there was a real jump in my

sales figures between Game of Thrones

and Clash of Kings and I think that

story and legends had a lot to do it

I've had a lot of people come up to me

over the ensuing years and say I'd never

heard of you I bought legends because

there was a new Stephen King story in it

but I loved your story and I started

bringing her stuff or you know I'd never

heard of you but I bought legends for

the Terry Pratchett story and then I

read your story and it was great and

that's so I think I gained a lot of a

lot of readers by being in legends do

you plan to do anymore

as ever as people who read the duncan

egg stories yeah do you plan to do any

more of them is this part of one of the

a project HBO I do I've written three to

date and I think I need to write another

I don't know nine something like that

but I have pretty well their entire

lives in my head and of course all those

things will become more details I write

them but first I have to finish I have

I have to finish that and then I can

write another Dunkin egg story and then

I read a dream of spring and then I

write another Dunkin egg story at some

point in there I have to write the

second part of fire and blood so I have

my work cut out for me why am I talking

to you here I should be writing well you

know George I wasn't going to ask about

the winds were in there tell me about I

mean you'll be obviously loved or you

seem to love collaboration

world-building tell me a little about

wildcards because I know that's that's a

totally different we got some blues a

totally different world that you're

building along with other writers yeah

that one actually goes back further than

further than Game of Thrones and started

wildcards in the 60s or the 80s in 1986

or 87 around then it actually came out

of I'm an old comic book fan that's how

I started writing letters to Marvel

Comics in the early 60s

dear Stan and Jack you know I don't know

why Stanley printed my letters it might

be because in the first one I said

Shakespeare move over Stanley has

arrived he liked that for some reason

but I always loved the the mythos of the

superhero the this person with

superpowers and in the early 80s would

have a bunch of my friends in

Albuquerque we were obsessively playing

this role-playing game called super

world and I don't know how many days

weeks months years we obsessively played

this game two or three times a week till

3:00 in the morning but at a certain

point I said well this is great but we

have all these great characters we have

all these great stories and we're not

getting any money for them we have to we

have to figure out how to do this and

get paid so I said it was the 80s shared

worlds were big thing then thieves world

different have you've read that Lea vac

iskar there were a lot of them but no

one had done a present-day superpower

shared world so we came up with

wildcards me and a group of friends and

and then I reached out and I recruited

other writers for it Roger Zelazny Pat

Cadogan many we have like 35 writers in

a wild-card consortium now and we've

been doing these I'm the editor and I've

been editing these books there are like

27 of them in print right now and at

least two more originals on the way and

we have two television series about the

wild-card universe in the works from

Hulu so hopefully while cars will be

going for another 30 years it's a lot of

fun to edit we have some amazing talents

and some amazing characters in wildcards

and we've just published the the first

wild-card set entirely in the United

Kingdom called knaves over Queens which

is the wild card world but from the

British point of view so check that one

out I think you might enjoy it

let's move I suppose from world building

to television and can I ask how the

process of sharing a world with other

writers on the page that you've

described wildcards compares to sharing

a world the world of Westeros with other

creators in Game of Thrones you know you

might have heard of it the biggest TV

show in the world you know what is what

is easy what is difficult when you

suddenly have to open this world out to

other writers other creators other minds

well there are challenges to it

certainly you know when I first got

involved in television in the in the mid

80s Twilight Zone was the first show I

was hired to write for and then Beauty

and the Beast and then I had five years

of development where I was making of my

own shows but remember I sold my first

short story in 71 so from 71 to 85 I was

active in the world of prose men short

stories books and that's a very lonely

existence it's you know you sitting in

front of a computer screen with the

cursor blinking

trying to think up something to fill

that screen and before computers it's

you sitting in front of a typewriter

which I did start on back in the

beginning and facing a blank sheet of

paper when I first got out to Hollywood

I actually loved the idea of you know

I'm working with all these other people

and you know you're in a room you're on

a show staff and you're writing things

and then then like the next day later

you're in the writers room and the other

writers are critiquing what you wrote

they're making suggestions you go back

and you rewrite it you rewrite it maybe

a couple times

other people way in and then eventually

gets greenlit to film and you're

suddenly working with the with a

director you're casting actors you're

sitting in casting sections and actors

some of whom you've actually heard of or

coming in and reading your lines and you

know it's it's it's a high the first

story of mine ever produced was Roger

Zelazny zhh and that my adaptation of

Roger Leslie's last defender of Camelot

the climax of which takes place in

Stonehenge in another dimension and

suddenly because of what Roger wrote and

what I wrote in the script here's all

these people building stonehenge on a

set behind my behind my office that's

real high and you know this is the

social aspect visiting the set meeting

the actors working with other writers

who are you know very bright and

talented going to dailies I mean coming

into the office every day and your

assistant brings you a cup of coffee and

you know you have a script meeting at

one point you have a casting session you

watch the dailies from the previous

day's shooting it's it's a whole

different world than the lonely write a

you're sitting in wrong in it is is it

distracting no i i i love much of it but

here's the other side of it the other

side of the same coin is there's all

these [ __ ] other people who are

telling you what to do they all have

[ __ ] opinions you know they don't

like that line or day they they say my

character wouldn't say that if they're

an actor or the director wants the scene

redone or the network won't let you do

something that's studio say they don't

have the money

for it you know the other writers have

different ideas so so it the same thing

is well very good and very very bad very

frustrating that you know there's no as

a creative person there's no control

greater than what you get when you are

sitting all alone in front of a computer

in front of a typewriter you're making

up your world you can do anything you

want your God in television you're sort

of a God but sort of a minor God there

are bigger gods above you they can smack

you down at any time so two different

ways of of telling stories and both of

them have their pluses and minuses so

you used to write an episode per season

of the beginning you write an episode

per season of Thrones or was it was that

yes the contractual that was a country I

had the option to write an episode every

season because I knew you know me going

back again to my ten years in television

you know I I worked on Twilight Zone did

a little bit of work on Max Headroom but

my episodes were never filmed then I

worked for three years the entire run of

Beauty and the Beast at that point I'd

risen through the ranks in the

television hierarchy from from staff

writer which was my first position you

know that staff writer is a very lowly

position because it's the only one that

has the word writer in the title and

then from there I moved up the story

editor an executive story editor and

co-producer producer supervising

producer and I was set to become an

executive producer a showrunner which is

the you know the big title but then

beauty to be extended and then I got a

development deal with it just paying me

Studios are paying me money to come up

with ideas for TV shows to come up with

ideas for TV movies feature films

what-have-you and I wrote a number of

those over the ensuing five years and

that can be very lucrative but

ultimately I found that very

unsatisfying because nothing was made

you know they they pay you and you have

meetings meetings you get invested in

the world you love these characters

and then they don't they don't make them

nobody nobody ever reads what you wrote

except for guys in a room and I guess I

discovered something about myself that

I'm a little like an actor or something

I want the applause or I want them to

throw the rotten fruit of me but

whatever I want to come out on the stage

at the end of I'm done and know that an

audience whether it's the audience in a

theatre of a few hundred or whether it's

an order audience of 20 million on the

television sets of America has seen what

I've come up with I wanted that but at

that stage when I finally went back to

two books with Game of Thrones I I

really wanted to be a showrunner I

wanted to do it and be the captain of

the ship instead of just a the first

mate or one of the swabbies but then 20

years passed and by the time Game of

Thrones was ready to go to HBO number

one I was right in the middle of a

series I would I had four books out and

I was struggling to finish dance with

dragons at that time and I knew there

were two more after that I couldn't you

know being a showrunner on a television

show is a 24 hour a day job I mean it's

a hugely high-stress busy job this

crises every day there's always

something to do

it takes all your attention I couldn't

do that without abandoning the books

entirely and that I wasn't willing to do

books were still number one priority but

I did want to keep my hand in so I got a

contract that said I could write one

episode per season and I did in the

beginning seasons but it took me about a

month to do each of those episodes even

though they were adaptations almost in

every case adaptations of scenes and

material that I'd already written in the

book so I was just really transferring

it from one medium to another at a

certain point when we got into season

five the butterfly effect had kicked in

and the show had gotten a little further

away from my books and I no longer had

adaptations to do I would have had to be

working on scenes that never occurred in

the books and so forth

and at that point I said well it was

taking me a month just to do the

straight adaptations if it here is gonna

take me six weeks minimum maybe two

months to write these scripts it's it's

too long and David and Anna have done a

great job I think I'll step back and

just concentrate on the books and that's

what I did and and given that divergence

how do you now regard what is now the

completed sort of corpus of Game of

Thrones the HBO series within this broad

world of Westeros which you you know

you've explored in different directions

I mean how where does it fit in well

it's it's it's two different ways of

telling a story I mean I ask people

sometimes how many children Scarlett

O'Hara have and for those of you who

know gone with the wind anybody you know

best-selling most popular movie of all

time and a mega bestseller of course in

Margaret Mitchell's book Scarlett O'Hara

has three children in the movie Scarlett

O'Hara has one child which is correct

which is right which is true true

scholar Tahereh had no children because

she didn't exist she was a made-up

fictional character so both of them are

are equally true you could do it gone

with the wind graphic novel next one she

could have twelve children that would

also be equally true you know where

we're making up stories here so yeah I'm

telling a version in in my books and the

show which had different constraints and

different deadlines and different needs

has told a very similar story close in

some respects exactly the same as some

respects different than other respects

let's move from the ridiculous to the sublime

sublime

and stop talking about television start

talking about history first of all I

want to ask you about the history of the

real world and its influence on on your

writing of this material about Westeros

because you know you spoke earlier on

about turning the map of Ireland upside

there are very evident sort of

influences of medieval history but not

only medieval is history on your world

tell us a little bit about how that's

fed into your vision well I've always

loved history back in when I was in

college I was a journalism major history

was my minor and even before college I

loved reading histories popular

histories and historical fiction I have

thought about the writing historical

fiction from time to time about certain

periods that I loved but you know the

problem about writing historical fiction

is you have to pull this damn research

and yes you're stuck with the with the

history the way it actually happens

mostly unless your name is like Quentin

Tarantino and you can you can make up an

end of inglorious basterds that's

completely different from what the

audience expects but for the most part

you are you're stuck I like the freedom

of you know modeling my books on history

taking taking influences from history

but in fantasy I can make it come out

differently I can you know I can make it

take a left turn when everybody is

expecting it to take a right I can do

the unexpected and and the revelation

and I can make it bigger I like to say I

take things in history and I turn them

up to 11 and honey you know your spinal

to happen you know you always have to

turn it up to 11 or 227 in the case so

in 1981 at least a Tuttle and I my first

visit to the UK I was visiting my friend

Lisa Tuttle with whom I wrote wind Haven

and we took a car and we drove around

for a while one place we stopped was

Hadrian's Wall had amazing influence on

me we got there just as sunset most of

the tour bus had left we pretty well had

it to herself and I went up on the wall

and stood there and looked off to the

north and tried to imagine I was a Roman

legionary you know in the first century

standing on the wall and wondering what

was going to come out of that hills and

you know they thought it was the end of

the world now of course I know being a

20th century at the time of our

and that what would come out of the

hills would actually be Scotsman but I

thought that could be a more terrifying

answer and but that that moment always

stuck with me and many years later when

I'm writing what became Game of Thrones

and I wanted a wall I earned it up way

past Adrian's and made it 700 feet high

and made out of ice and the things

coming out of the the forest the nails

or North were a good deal scary and

that's something you can do with with

fantasy every time that a season of Game

of Thrones would be about to come on

television in the UK someone from a

newspaper would ring me up and say hey

can you we've got this great idea can

you write an essay about how Game of

Thrones is really just the Wars of the

Roses and I'd say yeah sure pay me and

I'll of course there's a second

secondary industry and george RR martin

material and i'm part of it um it's not

is I mean that clearly Stark and

Lannister York and Lancaster I mean that

there are all of these how how much was

it drawn from the Wars of the Roses how

much was that sort of just convenient

material for you to suck into this with

this world well there were certainly an

inspiration and probably the worst of

roses of a single greatest historical

inspiration but I'd read a lot of

popular history I also bred you know the

history of the Crusades and and the

Albert jinseyun crusade and the Hundred

Years War and of course a lot of Nigel

Tranter books about the the historical

fiction about the history of Scotland

which always end badly the history of

Scotland is singularly bloody if you

think Game of Thrones is violent read

some Scottish history history for the

red wedding of course yes the red

wedding was loosely based on the the

black dinner as they called it but of

course once again I turned it up to 11

and then David and Dan got hold of it

for a TV show and turned it up to 14 so

you know you could always turn it up a

little more we've got the red so the the

black dinner though is an interesting

case I mean I I say I love history but I

always want to make it clear that I'm

a professional historian and the

histories that I read and histories that

I love or I guess what are called

popular histories they're not academic

histories if you accidentally stumble on

an academic history it'll probably put

you to sleep

very quickly the stuff that the

professional historians do now the black

dinner of Scotland I don't know how many

of you know that was the there was a

emnity between the the Earl of Douglas

the black Douglas as he was called and

the King of Scotland so he invited the

Earl of Douglas giving it gave him a

safe passage to come to the castle and

discuss it and they had all day a lovely

dinner the Earl who was young there was

only like 18 19 years old and he brought

his even younger brother who was like 15

years old with him and they had a lovely

dinner with the King of Scotland and

then at the end of it they started

playing this very sonorous beat and some

servants entered with a covered platter

underneath which was a black Boar's Head

which was a symbol of death and so then

they took the Earl and his little 1415

year old brother out and they beheaded

both of them in New York it's a great story

story

and I went from that and I constructed

the the red wedding of course that's the

story in myth and in popular legend but

but then if you read an academic

historian I said none of that ever

happened no they did execute the Earl

and all that but there was no sonorous

beat there was no there was no black

Boar's Head all that stuff was invented

later and maybe it was but whoever

invented it was a pretty good

storyteller because I like the popular

version of it much better than like the

boring academic version of it I think

sometimes in the study of history there

must be someone maybe it said he's at

Harvard or Yale or at Oxford or

Cambridge over here and he I don't know

what his name is but he his job is to

sit in an office and go over history and

make it as boring as possible take out

take out all the fun bits and and the

colorful bits and make it really dull

there's a question here from Laura and

via Twitter which

which sort of connects to this she says

a lot of your female characters are very

empowered and motivated which other

fictional or historical female

characters did you draw inspiration from

if any uh well again there was a lot of

them eleanor of aquitaine of course was

was a major one she was one of the most

kick-ass women of of the Middle Ages and

you know she had her own crusade or she

went on crusade rather and she married

two kings and then was the father of

several or was the mother of several

more she was a great character there's

also a lot of the if you read the

Italian history a lot of the during the

Italian Middle Ages and and Renaissance

period there were a lot of very powerful

and bloody women who controlled various

city-states in Italy and and did some

amazing things there's one very famous

story that again is probably made up by

some popular historian or legend maker

because it occurs in like the same story

is told of like six different men and at

least two different women and it's the

one where they that the father and or

mother is in a castle and they have a

son outside who they're going to hang

you know surrender to castle though

we're gonna hang your son right in front

of you and this story is told of William

Marshall the great Knights father you

know who supposedly pulled up his his

jerkin or whatever the hell he was

wearing and show them his dick and and

said go ahead hang him I have the

equipment to make more

and that same story is also told of I

think Catherine's sabor zone if the

Italians where you know they were gonna

hang her son and she lifted up her

skirts and pointed at her vagina so no I

can make another ones you right here so

probably it never happened at all since

it's attached to six people but God it's

a great story I can't resist things like

that and then don't be surprised if I

steal it and you see it no later game

with notebook let's talk about the

history of Westeros because this is your

latest book it's and you know as I said

at the beginning it's a masterpiece of

popular history and you can tell how

steeped you are in the form because of

the the way you've constructed this book

tell us why you chose to do this pulling

together earlier writings I think on

someone quite substantial on the history

of Westeros why put this together now

well you know as I was writing the books

I would I would have people think about

or refer to things that happened in

history occasionally from time to time

and it's actually in the novels

references to dead kings references to

legendary Knights and so forth of the

past at a certain point my publishers

said we want to publish a concordance we

want to publish a world book because

you've got all this history in that and

again I was to the middle writing novels

I said you know it's a great idea I'd

love it to test I wanted heavily

Illustrated I want lots of gorgeous

fantasy on it and I'd love Ella straited

books I always has since I was a kid

reading you know Robin Hood and King

Arthur books illustrated by people like

Howard Pyle and and C Wyeth gorgeous

gorgeous books I cut my teeth on those

so I wanted my books done the same way

so and I said and and you know I have I

have little bits of history in my head

that I haven't had an opportunity to put

in the books yet it put in the novels

yet but I'll include them too as there's

sidebars so we hired Elio Garcia and

Linda and Thompson who are two of my

Boober fans they run the Westeros

website which is the oldest and the

biggest of the websites devoted to

Westeros as a book

and they were supposed to organize all

the historical references that were

already in the novels assemble

everything and you know write a rough

account of it and then I would go in and

I would polish that rough account and

then I would put it in these side bars

which were material that had never

appeared so we were supposed to have

50,000 words of prose and then the rest

would be art or on every page gorgeous

art so by the time elio and Linda had

assembled everything we already had

seventy thousand words of prose and then

I wrote three hundred and fifty thousand

words of sidebars my publicist said wait

wait we can't we can't do this it's this

there won't be art at every page we've

already spent the whole art budget

they'll be art every 20 pages so we

ripped out on my sidebars and you know

we got the book together it was

published a few years ago the world of

Ice and Fire very nice book but then I

had all these leftover sidebars that

were kind of a history of various

Targaryen Kings and I could have written

more I was only like halfway through

writing the sidebars when when I

realized how long they were so at a

certain point when we realized that Game

of Thrones the TV show was winding down

but there might be successful TV shows I

said to my publisher as well we want to

we always been talking about doing this

history book which I was calling the

Grimm marillion as a play on token

should I finish wins first or should I

because the groomer early on is almost

complete at least up to Aegon the

Regency of Aegon the third and it

includes material in it that is going to

be the basis of some of these successor

shows so maybe we should get out first

before the shows and they agreed so they

said yeah that finish that one and

and then go back to winds of winter so I

sat down to finish that when I polished

all of the material I'd written I

expanded a few of the sidebars but then

I had to write you know that there was

particularly King Joe Harris the first

Joe Harris the conciliator I'd kind of

skipped over him in the sidebars because

he was the old king he reigned for fifty

five years and I just sort of written 55

years of peace and prosperity and that

was the big hole in this book and I said

well I can't just have two sentences on

your hair as he ran for 55 years 55

years of peace and prosperity is pretty

dull though there must have been

something that happened during that and

I started inventing all the things that

happened during Joe Harris's rain all of

his children were men who were trouble

in many different ways and conspiracies

and you know the roughness when he first

took things and what I loved it and I

finished all that and I finally got the

whole book done too through the Regency

of Aegon the third and I'm very pleased

with it I it's it's different I know

many of you are getting a copy here as

while you were here it's it's not a

conventional novel it is imaginary

history written in the style I'd you've

probably read my real influence on this

was Thomas because stains for volume

history the Plantagenet switch any of

you have not read you know go out and

find a copy in the used bookstore it's

it's wonderfully written it's full of

great great stories most of which

academic historians have probably

disproved by now but they're still

terrific stories and and the Plantagenet

for a family that was equally

interesting as to the Targaryen they

lacked only dragons otherwise otherwise

they would be right up there

so that was my influence and I tried to

do that in this imagined history book

it's Costin is the second best book ever

written about the Plantagenet essentially

there are some great scenes at aiming

Aegon's conquest at the beginning of

this book as I would I be right in

saying you know a sort of you know a

version of the Norman conquest of

England of 1066 but on dragon back with

Dragon Age on the first arriving on

balerion the dread I mean it is just

amazing is this can I ask one one of the

HBO shows and development can you tell

us about any of those by the way Blood

Moon is ramped something hey I I can't

go on

it's probably an HBO agent in the in the

auditorium even now I can say as I have

said before we we started out with a

number of different ideas all of them

prequels one show which I've been

calling the long night what HBO keeps

saying it's not titled yet so the show

that's not called the long night yet has

just finished filming up in Belfast and

is now and and other places not just

Belfast Italy as well and Jane Goldman

is the writer and the showrunner on that

you you've probably been familiar with

her work she was the scriptwriter on

several of the x-men movies she did

kick-ass and she did the Kingsmen of

Kingsman things she she scripted Neil Gaiman's

Gaiman's

Stardust so she's very experienced

screenwriter and she's done this story

and it is set you know five thousand

years in the past of Westeros so way way

way before the events of Game of Thrones

and that that's the one that is furthest

along at the moment and it's in

pre-production and right now it's just a

pilot but it's got Naomi Watts in it

starring it's got miranda Richardson a

lot of other very exciting actors and

will probably be finally added in the

next couple months whether HBO was

actually gonna order for the full series

of that and meanwhile we have two other

pilots that are also in active

development at some stage and hopefully

in the near future one or both of them

will be

greenlit to shoot a pilot and we may get

more than one westeros show on the air

Wow and do you have any particularly

particularly at characters or episodes

within this I mean the dance of the

Dragons of course it sort of forms of in

a sense a core part of the book well I

have I have a lot of affection from

mushroom well say a little bit about

mushroom and send and link it if you

wouldn't mind to the process of writing

fake history because this is something

that really struck me that you've done

so skillfully with this book explaining

mushroom is maybe well mushroom is a

dwarf and but he's not a well born one

like Tyrion he's he's a dwarf of lowly

birth who's the the fool at in the court

during the events leading up to and

during much of the dance of the Dragons

and it's aftermath he's a jester they

were actually a number of jesters in the

real Middle Ages of course you've

probably seen them in many movies fools

gestures as they were called some of

them were very very clever men who were

who could do all sorts of wit witticisms

and and jokes who could sing funny songs

who could juggle and ride unicycles and

do other colorful things some of them

were people who were physically deformed

who were word Dwarfs or hunchbacks or

whatever and some of them were obviously

very politically incorrect these days

but some of them were mentally

handicapped mentally [ __ ] the people

of the Middle Ages found that

wonderfully amusing

so mushroom is is a dwarf but he's of

the clever sorties and and he's an

observer and he the testimony of

mushroom this is this folks not actually

written by me you see it's written by

archmaester Gill Dean of the Citadel and

he's writing a history and like anyone

writing in history he has to go back to

primary sources

and I had a lot of fun with that because

when he gets to the dance of dragons he

has a number of primary sources but

three of them are most major he has he

has Grand Master or wilds official court

records he has the Septon who was kept

the Septon in King's Landing and the red

cape who of course is a is a religious

figure so he interprets everything as

the will of the gods and what was the

sand and what wasn't the same and he has

mushroom who was semi-literate and could

actually write anything but who told his

story in later years to to a equivalent

of a monk who wrote it all down and

mushroom story of course is always the

most scandalous Gorillaz filthy version

of events all of which had to do with

people betraying each other and

poisoning each other and having similar

type fun and sleeping in places station

and sleep and all of that I love the

idea since this was a fake history I

didn't want to tell it as a omniscient

historian sitting down this is what

actually happened I love the idea of

telling it as a historian in world who's

trying to figure out what happened but

he's looking better his primary sources

and he's finding contradictory accounts

you know and this was impressed on me

many many years ago long before Game of

Thrones began I was I was writing a

novel that was never completed or

published it was black and white and red

all vermin novel about 1890s journalism

in New York City when there were

fourteen competing daily newspapers one

of which was the New York world owned

and operated by Joseph Pulitzer it's a

great great journalist for whom the

Pulitzer Prize is named and the New York world building which no longer exists

world building which no longer exists but was down on Park Row which is where

but was down on Park Row which is where all the newspapers who were built was

all the newspapers who were built was the tallest building in the world at its

the tallest building in the world at its time and it had a golden dome on the top

time and it had a golden dome on the top it was a very memorable building you

it was a very memorable building you know it was built right next to the Sun

know it was built right next to the Sun a competing paper but it was so high

a competing paper but it was so high that people said pull it could could

that people said pull it could could lean out and spit

lean out and spit the Sun if you wanted to spit straight

the Sun if you wanted to spit straight down at the smaller building next one

down at the smaller building next one the thing is when I tried to research

the thing is when I tried to research the world and find out tallest building

the world and find out tallest building in the world how many stories was it

in the world how many stories was it exactly I found three different

exactly I found three different contradictory citations it was easy is

contradictory citations it was easy is 20 stories tall or 16 I think were 15

20 stories tall or 16 I think were 15 and that really impressed on me this is

and that really impressed on me this is like 1890 I'm looking at this is like

like 1890 I'm looking at this is like yesterday incomparable things this is a

yesterday incomparable things this is a simple factual question how many stories

simple factual question how many stories were in this building and I'm getting

were in this building and I'm getting three different accounts if they can't

three different accounts if they can't even get that right what's the odds that

even get that right what's the odds that they know what happened to Charlemagne

they know what happened to Charlemagne you know 2,000 years ago or something

you know 2,000 years ago or something the answer astronomical so modern

the answer astronomical so modern historian or something like archmaester

historian or something like archmaester gilding has to sort through these

gilding has to sort through these stories these contradictory stories and

stories these contradictory stories and decide which he believes in which he

decide which he believes in which he doesn't believe and I had a lot of fun

doesn't believe and I had a lot of fun being able to tell you know mushrooms

being able to tell you know mushrooms accounts which are probably all turned

accounts which are probably all turned up to 37 and then the dollar accounts

up to 37 and then the dollar accounts but I didn't have to just stick to the

but I didn't have to just stick to the Builder accounts I could give all three

Builder accounts I could give all three and that was a great deal of fun and

and that was a great deal of fun and gilding sort of favor phrase that he

gilding sort of favor phrase that he comes back to is I guess we'll never

comes back to is I guess we'll never know

know after after presenting every version of

after after presenting every version of the story and in this beautiful piece of

the story and in this beautiful piece of Peruvians but that kind of buttoned up

Peruvians but that kind of buttoned up surely when you're reading your actual

surely when you're reading your actual histories you would encounter the same

histories you would encounter the same problems exactly the same thing so you

problems exactly the same thing so you do the same thing you know you tell the

do the same thing you know you tell the obviously phony version they go but

obviously phony version they go but that's probably phony but by that time

that's probably phony but by that time you've got the bit about the red-hot

you've got the bit about the red-hot poker up the arse or make your own mind

poker up the arse or make your own mind up guys and one more question here

up guys and one more question here submitted from an audience member

submitted from an audience member aurelie Percy I think is the name the

aurelie Percy I think is the name the second volume of fire and blood won't

second volume of fire and blood won't come out anytime soon so very

come out anytime soon so very pessimistic about your output

pessimistic about your output maybe maybe with some justification but

maybe maybe with some justification but could you could you give us an idea of

could you could you give us an idea of some elements that it will contain we go

some elements that it will contain we go up to the reign of Aegon the unlucky

up to the reign of Aegon the unlucky here what at one of the highlights of

here what at one of the highlights of the putative next volume of this well I

the putative next volume of this well I mean that I act I this book on he goes

mean that I act I this book on he goes up to the Regency of Aegon and ends when

up to the Regency of Aegon and ends when Aegon the third actually reaches

Aegon the third actually reaches mandarin takes control so i have his

mandarin takes control so i have his reign to cover which includes the death

reign to cover which includes the death of the last dragons although Aegon the

of the last dragons although Aegon the third is called the dragon bane there

third is called the dragon bane there are still three or four dragons kicking

are still three or four dragons kicking around when he takes the crown and there

around when he takes the crown and there were none by the time he's over so that

were none by the time he's over so that one thing I was going to cover why and

one thing I was going to cover why and what happens there and some of the

what happens there and some of the troubles and rebellions of his reign and

troubles and rebellions of his reign and then ultimately his children who are

then ultimately his children who are fairly interesting I mean he has

fairly interesting I mean he has ultimately five one of whom is there on

ultimately five one of whom is there on the first a young dragon who conquers

the first a young dragon who conquers Dorne and he's a 14 year old Alexander

Dorne and he's a 14 year old Alexander the great kind of hero king figure but

the great kind of hero king figure but he dies young and then his his brother

he dies young and then his his brother Bay Lord takes over and Baylor is very

Bay Lord takes over and Baylor is very religious very he's a more of a st.

religious very he's a more of a st. Louis kind of figure little extreme and

Louis kind of figure little extreme and his religiosity and among other things

his religiosity and among other things he imprisons his three sisters in

he imprisons his three sisters in luxurious imprisonment and the red keep

luxurious imprisonment and the red keep the maiden volt but he doesn't like them

the maiden volt but he doesn't like them like walking around court because they

like walking around court because they tempt him with you know they have

tempt him with you know they have breasts and things underneath their

breasts and things underneath their clothes and he finds that very

clothes and he finds that very disturbing to contemplate so he hides

disturbing to contemplate so he hides them away so I'll tell their stories and

them away so I'll tell their stories and I'll tell Baylor story and then after

I'll tell Baylor story and then after him well we get a brief a brief reign of

him well we get a brief a brief reign of Viserys the second and then the serious

Viserys the second and then the serious son Aegon the fourth Aegon the unworthy

son Aegon the fourth Aegon the unworthy takes over and he's a very colorful

takes over and he's a very colorful figure himself I obviously drew on Henry

figure himself I obviously drew on Henry the eighth for him you know Henry the

the eighth for him you know Henry the Eighth had six wives Aegon the unworthy

Eighth had six wives Aegon the unworthy had nine mistresses and they're all

had nine mistresses and they're all existed my head I know who they all were

existed my head I know who they all were and what happened to each of them and

and what happened to each of them and who was where their head chopped off and

who was where their head chopped off and who

who you know had affairs and who did what so

you know had affairs and who did what so there's a lot of cool material that and

there's a lot of cool material that and then you get into the Blackfyre

then you get into the Blackfyre rebellion which were five I've referred

rebellion which were five I've referred to them frequently so I'll get all the

to them frequently so I'll get all the details on the Blackfyre rebellion z'

details on the Blackfyre rebellion z' and ultimately we'll get up to the the

and ultimately we'll get up to the the Mad King and Robert's rebellion and Wow

Mad King and Robert's rebellion and Wow that's where I'll draw to a close but

that's where I'll draw to a close but when am I going to write it well I got

when am I going to write it well I got to finish winds of winter first and then

to finish winds of winter first and then probably a dunk an egg and then yeah I

probably a dunk an egg and then yeah I don't know I don't know I need I need

don't know I don't know I need I need more hours in the day and I need to be

more hours in the day and I need to be 20 years younger and all of that but um

20 years younger and all of that but um you tell you you could only write one

you tell you you could only write one word at a time so that's what I'm doing

word at a time so that's what I'm doing well George fittingly perhaps we're

well George fittingly perhaps we're running late and I I want to carry on

running late and I I want to carry on but I can feel eyes I mean and I've got

but I can feel eyes I mean and I've got I do have one more question for you

I do have one more question for you which is in this book we have many many

which is in this book we have many many dragons and many many Valyrian steel

dragons and many many Valyrian steel swords and if you could have if you

swords and if you could have if you could ride one dragon and wield one

could ride one dragon and wield one sword which would it be

sword which would it be well if I could write on one dragon I

well if I could write on one dragon I might as well go with the biggest which

might as well go with the biggest which would be balerion the black dread he's

would be balerion the black dread he's used to mega dragon in in this early

used to mega dragon in in this early book he's the the only one that

book he's the the only one that remembers of valaria past a certain

remembers of valaria past a certain point as he was brought over from

point as he was brought over from malaria at a little before the doom of

malaria at a little before the doom of Valyria and he's the biggest and meanest

Valyria and he's the biggest and meanest of the dragons that exists if I could

of the dragons that exists if I could wield only one sword I don't think it

wield only one sword I don't think it would be any of the Targaryen swords it

would be any of the Targaryen swords it would be dawn the swords the sword

would be dawn the swords the sword wielded by the sword of the morning the

wielded by the sword of the morning the air of house Dayne of Starfall which is

air of house Dayne of Starfall which is made from the metal from a fallen star

made from the metal from a fallen star and who knows what magical property is

and who knows what magical property is full on storms bring to earth well I

full on storms bring to earth well I think you've got a bit of falling star

think you've got a bit of falling star in you now ladies and gentlemen we are

in you now ladies and gentlemen we are I'm afraid we're out of time so we've

I'm afraid we're out of time so we've arranged for balerion the black dread to

arranged for balerion the black dread to take George after dinner so George is

take George after dinner so George is very shortly going to leave the stage

very shortly going to leave the stage I'm going to ask all of you not to leave

I'm going to ask all of you not to leave your seats just for a moment because

your seats just for a moment because otherwise balerion is gonna eat you and

otherwise balerion is gonna eat you and wait til we've gone is what I'm saying

wait til we've gone is what I'm saying I'm very sorry we have to go but it has

I'm very sorry we have to go but it has been I think you'll all agree an

been I think you'll all agree an enormous privilege and an utter joy and

enormous privilege and an utter joy and a pleasure to have with us the one and

a pleasure to have with us the one and only george RR martin

only george RR martin [Applause]

[Applause] [Music]

you [Music]

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YouTube Transcript:In conversation: George R.R. Martin with Dan Jones FULL EVENT