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Is the 'sunshine cure' a real thing? - CrowdScience podcast_ BBC World Service podcast
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If I’m awake to see the sun come up,
it’s a great start to the day. I mean it's just clear blue sky... - You feel more energetic, positive
- You know the whole day’s gonna be pretty good. I think my mood goes up, it doubles, you know.
I’m Marnie Chesterton and you’re listening to CrowdScience, the show that answers questions
sent to us from all over the world and sometimes, if we’re lucky, also takes us to
some of those places – which is why I’m currently enjoying some winter sunshine in southern Spain.
I’m here to try and find out whether the weather makes a difference to our mood, and our health
because listener Michael in Australia got in touch with this question:
[Michael] I would like to know why so many people, at the slightest sight of sunshine and warmth,
have sharply increased enthusiasm for life and their moods appear far happier.
I'm wondering as to the science on whether it's actually better health-wise,
to live in a warm climate.
[Marnie] I'd like you, Michael, to tell me a bit more about the bit of Australia
that you’re from? Because I always think of Australia as hot and sunny, but you live in an anomaly?
[Michael] I think the anomaly is the southern part. Particularly where I'm from in Melbourne
which is southern Victoria.
We have an Oceanic climate which is not much different to what you guys have in London.
Of course, we have greater variation, with higher highs,
but we also have a terribly gloomy climate, by the standard of Australia
and that's what's important to remember here Marnie, this is not by the standard of, I don't know,
Scandinavia or something like that.
And the problem that we have here locally
is the inconsistency. Summertime, or leading into summertime, you might have a 25, 26, 27-degree day
for three days in a row and it will just tank to 16, 17.
[Marnie] Can I ask what kind of effect that has on the people in Melbourne?
[Michael] What you have is that typical, cold-climate dropped headedness
and I also lived in Sweden, and I noticed it absolutely everywhere in Sweden,
and when the sunshine comes out, there's a little bit of warmth behind it,
the mood is better, everyone's at the café, 'Hey, mate! How you going? How's the day?'
'Yeah, great!'
[Marnie] You're not just interested in mood, right? You also want to know about whether
living somewhere sunny has an effect on other health conditions.
Anything in particular?
[Michael] No, not really.
I'm interested in the science as to whether it is actually factually better health-wise
to base yourself in a warm climate
or if it's in your mind, and therefore you have a better existence because your mind
is a little healthier because of it. I'm not sure
and I'd love you guys to answer that.
[Marnie] Have you thought about moving?
[Michael] Yeah, of course. Yeah, absolutely.
[Marnie] Is it common in Australia for people to head to hotter parts?
[Michael] Extremely. You get it a lot here, with people with arthritis and other conditions like that
where the doctors will say to you, 'Hey, you probably really should consider
living in a warmer climate.'
We have that option, granted, in this country.
[Marnie] Admittedly, most people don’t have that option, but for me,
living in London with its winter gloom and unpredictable summers, it does sound tempting.
I’ve come to the little whitewashed village of Chite, in a valley in Andalusia in Southern Spain.
There are golden mountains rising all around me,
and orange trees and olive trees as far as the eye can see… and, I’ve gotta say, it’s pretty idyllic.
This part of Spain, where temperatures tend to stay above 20 degrees Celsius in December,
is home to loads of retired British people - and they’re all convinced that the
weather’s responsible for their excellent health.
- My name’s Carol, I was diagnosed with ME, and fybromialgia, and
had a lot of joint pain and nerve pain. When I came to live here, in Spain, the heat actually made me
physically better as well as psychologically. You want to go outside more, rather than in England you
feel as if you want to stay in the warmth of your home.
- My name is Olywn and I’ve lived here for 19 years, I think. When I was diagnosed with arthritis then
it just seemed like a good idea and I talked it over with the consultant
and he thought it was a good idea, so out we came. I don’t know if
it’s just that you psychologically feel better about it when the sun's shining
or whether you really feel better… but certainly not as achy
- My name’s Tony Langham, and I’ve lived here on and off for about 12 years.
[Marnie] And you’ve got a heart condition, right? [Tony] Yes, I had stents put in last year.
It is easier to look after your heart out here than it is in England, definitely.
I mean the cold, for one thing, can really get to you.
[Marnie] Do you think the weather makes a difference to your health?
[Tony] Yeah, I think it certainly does, psychologically probably, but as we’re
body and mind together obviously if it’s making one thing better, it’s making everything better.
[Marnie] Tony, Olwyn and Carol all think that living somewhere warmer and
drier than the UK has eased their aches and pains.
But what is it that’s helping? Is it the warmth from the sunshine... or the extra
light from a sky not blanketed in cloud? Or is it that this sunny climate is making
them feel positive, which changes their mindsets about their health conditions?
Or is the sun directly improving their arthritis or angina?
Well, if you’re familiar with our back catalogue you’ll know CrowdScience has
investigated the link between weather and pain before… and we discovered that,
while loads of people think there’s a connection, the science has been under-researched.
[Anna Beukenhorst] For centuries patients have said that there is this link between weather conditions
and their pain, but scientists were never able to pinpoint it.
[Marnie] Until fairly recently.
That’s data scientist Anna Beukenhorst. She is one of the authors of a study which analysed
data from around 10,000 people across the UK to try and get a clearer picture of what’s going on.
Participants with a range of conditions used their smartphones to report their daily levels of pain.
Then the team cross-referenced that information with the precise weather data in their location.
[Anna] And we found that higher humidity, lower air pressure and stronger winds
were significantly associated with increased pain. So in the worst possible combination,
which would be a humid, windy day with low pressure, painful days were 20% more likely.
And interestingly, we didn't find a link between temperature and pain,
or between rain and pain.
[Marnie] That's interesting, because
low pressure weather tends to be stormy or cloudy, and cloud means less sunshine, and yet
there’s no statistically significant link between pains levels and rain or temperature.
In general, people were likely to suffer just as much when it was hot.
Which might sound surprising to people like Carol and Olwyn and Tony who say they’re less
achy – and more mobile – now they’ve settled under the Spanish sun.
But they did all mention the physical and psychological aspects of waking
up to sunshine and blue skies. So could something else be going on?
One option is that warm, nice, weather may affect people's mood.
Because we saw in our study, that people's mood had a strong relationship with pain.
And that was even stronger than the link between weather and pain.
Of course, you have a bit of a chicken and egg question. So we actually couldn't determine
what came first, the bad mood or a lot of pain and I think if you suffer a lot of pain
and all the daily living activities get much harder yet and that may also affect your mood.
[Marnie] OK. But there is a possibility that even if you're suffering from chronic pain
there’s some sort of positive mood benefit from having lovely sunny weather
and that may influence your pain levels? [Anna] Yes, yes, I read one interesting article,
where they sent people from Norway to Spain to benefit from the climate. And I think during the
whole study period, which maybe was one month or so, they didn't see any differences. But the first
couple of days, people were both happier and more pain free than they were in their home location.
[Marnie] Despite the lack of hard scientific evidence that hotter weather is actually better for
people suffering painful conditions, something about putting folk out into the sunshine does
seem to trick some people’s brains into feeling less pain. Kind of like a warm placebo.
Anna mentioned Norwegians who make winter trips to Spain to benefit from the Mediterranean climate,
they felt happier when they first arrived.
If you’ve ever been to Norway, you’ll know it gets very cold, and very dark in the winter.
Some bits of the country see absolutely no sunshine for months on end. And I’m intrigued….
- I’ve got one side of the bag that's got my sandals and
short sleeved t-shirts and then the other side is hats, gloves and thermals!
…which is how I find myself swapping the orange groves of
Andalusia, for a small, snowy town three hours west of Oslo...
- Ooh, that is bracing! ...called Rjukan.
- These guys do winter differently to people in Southern Spain, clearly.
We’ve just arrived in Rjukan and let me just say, it’s a lot colder than it was in Spain, my fingers
are freezing. That's partly because, for six months of the year, the sun doesn’t reach the town at all. Until a few
years ago, the only way people could catch any rays, was to take a cable car to the top of one of the mountains
overlooking the town. I’m going to take a ride to the top
and find out what a difference it makes for people who live their life in the shadows.
From the top of the cable car, you can look down onto the long narrow streets,
blanketed in blue shade at the bottom of a valley formed by two walls of mountains.
It does seem like a strange place to build a town and yes, Rjukan is relatively young,
founded in the early 1900s when an entrepreneur realised that the long waterfall coming off one
of those mountains could be tapped for a hydroelectric power plant.
And it was the hydroelectric company that built the cable car
so that its employees could travel to the top and feel the sun on their faces.
- If you go to the top of the station, to the viewing point, you might reach the sun, maybe.
- We're properly sun-chasing!
You guys have come up here, can I ask, do you live in Norway?
- Yes, we live in Oslo. - And you thought, what,
'I'll come to the valley with no sunshine, just to feel better about how much sun there is in Oslo?!'
- Yes that’s true, that's true. I’ve always thought that, I mean of course,
sunshine is something you need, and you need that to survive and live,
and the fact that people actually live here without it, it's fascinating.
[Marnie] Fascinating may be one way to describe life in Rjukan,
but for many people here the winter is pretty hard.
For a start, we use direct sunshine to make vitamin D, which might play a role in regulating
mood, and is well known to guard against many conditions from colds to cardiovascular disease.
Sunshine also plays a key role in a mental illness -
sometimes called Seasonal Affective Disorder, or SAD.
This form of winter depression happens when we make too much of a hormone called melatonin,
which has a production process regulated by sunlight. Not enough light, and our body clocks
are thrown off their regular rhythm, triggering all sorts of symptoms, including a lack of energy…
[Bjorn Birkeland] More need to sleep, reduced movement, more appetite, especially sweets,
weight gain, social withdrawal and reduced sex drive.
[Marnie] And according to town psychologist Bjorn Birkeland,
Rjukan has higher levels of SAD than other parts of Norway:
[Bjorn] The rest of Norway, we think it’s 5-10%, and in Rjukan, we estimate it to 15 or 16%.
[Marnie] Can you treat it? [Bjorn] Yes. With sun and light. It’s the only method.
[Marnie] So, he prescribes light therapy. Which is what it sounds like,
a big bright lamp to sit in front of for 30 minutes every morning, to try and combat the problem.
But even for people without SAD, the option of travelling to
the top of the mountain to see sunshine didn't quite cut it.
[Martin Andersen] I moved here in 2002. I knew the conditions but still it was very strange, because we moved in the
autumn, just when the sun started to disappear. [Marnie] Oh, brutal! So, how bad was it?
[Martin] The first impression was quite bad. It was more the idea that the sun is disappearing.
Especially in the autumn-time, it's a very big difference
between being in the sun and being in the shadow
because it pushes down the cold, somehow.
And I mean the town, it never dries up.
[Marnie] How did it make you feel?
[Martin] I don't know... Desperate! But then I thought, why not reflect it down to one place, and there will always be
sun in this place if it’s a sunny day. And then I went to the municipality and
proposed the idea, I wrote the document.
And then I found out it was an old idea, from 1913 was the first time,
and it's been repeated a lot of times.
[Marnie] OK, so every generation, someone comes along and goes,
‘why don’t we do this?’ ...and then nothing happens? [Martin] And nothing happens! That’s the difference
between me and the others, I’m more stupid and just never gave up and spent more time on it!
[Marnie] Martin Andersen might call himself stupid, but his proposal had a genius simplicity to it.
I arrived in Rjukan on a sunny day. By which I mean
you could see the bright sunshine glinting off the mountain tops. Well, Martin wanted to put
some massive mirrors up there, and angle them to reflect light down into the town.
And, in 2013 - a hundred years after the Rjukan’s founder had first suggested something similar -
its now world famous ‘sun mirrors’ were levered into place.
[Martin] The mirrors are 51 square metres all together, coming down you get 90% of being in the direct
sunlight. It’s three mirrors going to the same spot.
It's on the main square in town.
It increases and decreases during the day,
but 300-600sq m [of sun] you get. [Marnie] So, three mirrors, each about the size of a bus
reflecting light down into the town square? [Martin] Mmm. It becomes a very nice spot,
It’s like a theatre light which comes down… it is like being in the sun.
[Marnie] At this point, you’re probably wanting me to head to the town square,
feel that sun on my face and talk to all the locals I find there sunning themselves.
But the town square in Rjukan is looking empty and bleak...
because this winter, all three of Rjukan’s mirrors have broken down.
To get the sunshine in the same spot as the sun’s position changes, the mirrors have to undergo
micro-adjustments to their angles. It’s all co-ordinated by a computer system – and sadly,
that connection crashed about a week before I arrived.
But Martin takes me outside anyway,
to look up at the mirrors and paint a picture of life in the town when they worked.
[Martin] Now you see them. You see two are flat? [Marnie] Oh yes… is this whole square lit up by the mirrors?
[Martin] No, no, not the whole... just in front. [Marnie] So people gather here and just
point their faces and say, 'burn me now'?
[Martin] And a lot of tourists come here to just be in this spot. It's very funny, you drag them into a dark valley
just to see the sun. (laughs) Reflected sun.
[Marnie] But it’s special sun, exactly, because
it’s reflected. I mean, is it the same sun?
[Martin] No, it's just an image of the sun. But it makes a very nice contrast to the rest of the place.
I call it like a smiling machine, because people, they come in, and then everybody smiles.
[Marnie] Can you tell me how people are reacting to not having their winter sunshine?
[Martin] I hope they burn cars in the street to get it back here! (laughs)
[Marnie] How do you feel about not being able to pull into this square and get some sun?
[Martin] I think it's very sad. It’s a big plus to have this little spot of sunlight. When it’s not there,
it becomes more gloomy than it should be.
Rjukan is showing me how radically the sun can alter our behaviour.
The mirrors there act as a magnet for bringing people together at the height of winter,
even just for a few minutes. They also remind them what’s round the corner – spring. The residents
celebrate the return of the sunshine in March with a massive fancy dress party.
And that chimes with the research. While most of the studies on mood and weather are inconclusive,
the importance of seeing sunshine at certain times of year is becoming better established.
Oscar Ybarra is a professor of organisational behaviour at the University of Illinois in the US.
He was part of a team that discovered that seasonal sunshine not only makes us happier,
it can also help us to think more clearly.
[Oscar Ybarra] Previous work had looked at simply associating, whether it was temperature or pressure with
how people were feeling. And our approach was a little different. We thought there would be more
nuance in that what might matter more is the season, right? Because, after a while, if you're deep
into the summer, another warm day is just not... it won't have the same effect, as the first
few warm days in the spring, for instance. [Marnie] Ah nuance. Because we humans are complex.
And Oscar’s team thought a sunny day in the right context might have a strong effect.
They designed a series of experiments to test how much of an effect seasonal differences had
on mood and cognition. And they found two factors were important:
[Oscar] The temperature and amount of sunlight have to be, I won't say just right,
but compared to what they've been, you know, they have to be more agreeable. And then
in addition to that, you have to be able to spend time outside in that nice weather so,
specifically what we found out is that as the weather turned nicer, especially after
a northern winter, and people got to spend time out in that nicer weather, then what you saw was,
that was associated with better moods, and also with better memory performance. And in that one
study where we also looked the degree to which they updated their beliefs, nicer weather as well
was associated with people's willingness to update a prior belief that they had about an individual.
[Marnie] So all sorts of bits how to do with how our brains process information seems to change,
it seems to be affected by
a mixture of this sweet spot, of it's got to be the right temperature,
it's got to be warmer than it had been… is there anything else I'm missing?
[Oscar] Yes, and you have to be able to be, you know, outside in that nicer temperature.
[Marnie] OK. Is there a minimum amount of outside time that you need for this to work?
[Oscar] Sort of the breaking point between where you started seeing
benefits versus no benefits was around 30 minutes… it's unclear whether depending on
just exactly where you were in the season whether it will be less time than that, or more.
[Marnie] You mentioned seasons. Is there a time of year when this sunshine and warmth makes a difference?
[Oscar] What we showed in the studies is that it's really coming out of the cold winter season,
that you see these benefits, so, once you start transitioning into the spring and summer,
and that's related to this idea that there is a sense of novelty associated with it, and what
is it that, in a sense,
represents the largest change from where you’ve been.
[Marnie] It makes sense. If you live somewhere that’s sunny and 19 degrees all year round,
you kind of get used to it, I suppose. It's not a treat any more. [Oscar] Yes. Yes, it's not a treat anymore. And
take it from somebody who grew up in a place that had more than 300 days of sunshine every year!
[Marnie] Whereabouts did you grow up? [Oscar] I was born
and raised in a little town called Alpine in West Texas. So you asked me earlier what the weather
was like, here in Urbana, I said it was cloudy. Sometimes I don't mind the cloudy days, still!
After this winter, I'm sure I will enjoy the nicer weather. But you know, too much of something can become oppressive.
[Marnie] So it really doesn’t need to be all that hot for us to experience mood and cognitive
benefits. We just need a shift from colder to warmer – so a change of season, like spring,
like they have in Norway. That reappearance of the sun seems to be more important than
how much heat it’s giving off. Which is lucky, cos March in Rjukan is still pretty chilly.
The sweet spot seems to be around 20 degrees centigrade, and even that needs to not be
a constant, because we quickly start taking any weather pattern for granted.
Of course, too much sunshine can also cause all
sorts of other problems, like skin cancer and heat stroke.
And, as more parts of this planet hit 50+ degrees,
it is worth looking at the negatives that sunshine and heat can have on our health and well-being.
Professor Solomon Hsiang is Director of the Global Policy Lab at the
University of California, Berkeley, and has found evidence dating back 10,000 years
that high temperatures can actually be really harmful for how we humans behave.
[Solomon Hsiang] We looked at studies that had been conducted around the world. And what we saw was a repeating
pattern, where when the climate in the historical record shifted to conditions that were not so
favourable, you know, to people, not favourable to agriculture, we saw higher rates of conflict,
violence, or things you might call, you know, the collapse of civilizations, even.
So, there's lots of different examples, whether you look at, you know, the Maya
in Central America, or you look at Angkor Wat,
in South-east Asia, which societies,
you know, were faced with very long droughts, or extremely cold conditions,
if you're very far north for a long time, or extremely hot conditions for a long time.
And we see that that put a lot of stress on these societies and to the point where in many cases,
governments collapsed. And that was really the end of those communities.
[Marnie] I’m intrigued, how do you pinpoint the role of climate in the collapse of an entire civilization?
[Solomon] It's challenging to say that the climate was the only reason why a society broke down.
In many cases, what you see is a pattern of overlapping stresses. So for example,
in the case of Angkor Wat, you know, they were at war with their neighbouring city
for a long time. At the same time, they had to support, you know, a growing population,
and then they were faced with a multi-year drought that they were trying to cope with and manage. And
sometimes it just turns out to be too much. And I think we see that over and over again,
[Marnie] Can you link that to a change in temperature in particular, or is it just
if it's normally somewhere that's hot and relatively arid, and suddenly
there's a lot of rainfall, or vice versa?
[Solomon] When we look in deep history, it's actually much easier to track changes in rainfall,
But we also see that in the modern period, temperature plays a really important role.
And in particular, as it gets hotter and hotter, we tend to see
it really affect how people make decisions, their mood, and their propensity for conflict.
[Marnie] How much of a temperature rise is needed to see these effects depends on the situation.
But Solomon says an increase in heat and an increase in conflict go hand in hand – so,
as it gets hotter, more people engage in violent behaviour, and… every degree matters.
You can measure this in all sorts of ways. His approach was to get students
to play certain games, and then fiddle with the thermostat and watch what happened.
[Solomon] There's a game called The Joy of Destruction. Essentially, students can
destroy gift cards that they get as winnings. And they can destroy another person's winnings,
for no benefit of their own, they just see that the gift cards get cut up. And so this is kind
of measuring how much satisfaction someone gets from watching someone else be harmed.
We put half the students randomly into an environment that was pretty cool, like normal
room temperature. And half the students went into a setting in which we really cranked up the heat
and made it very, very uncomfortably warm, and they were in there for many hours.
And what we actually saw is that when the students were randomly put into the hot room,
they were destroying over 10% more of the other students' assets, when it didn't really help them
in any other discernible way. What we take away from that is that the students were somehow
enjoying destroying someone else's material goods, as a response to changes in their environment.
We want to be very careful here because there had been some really contentious political
elections happening, just before we were doing all our experiments, and one of the communities
involved really felt like the election was stolen from them. And it turned out that the students
that seemed to be experiencing all that frustration in the real world,
some of it was carrying over into the experiment, and that was the community of students that seemed
to be feeling the most satisfaction from destroying other people's assets.
So people face external frustration.
You know, we have to normally try to contain that, and accept those problems,
but in some cases, we burst out, we do things that hurt other people.
And what we see, I think, over and over, is that higher temperatures give us a
shorter fuse. We're less able to control those frustrations,
and they end up coming to the surface and sometimes hurting other people.
[Marnie] Solomon’s research suggests that hotter temperatures
impact how well people can deal with the stresses and strains of ordinary
life – he’s found gang violence and murders increase as the mercury rises.
But is it that we’re all getting hot and bothered – and reacting more impulsively to
stressful situations, or is it just the case that warmer weather means more people are likely to
go outside… and more people on the streets means more opportunities to commit crimes?
Solomon says it might be both. Certainly, car theft rates go down when it’s too cold to stand
outside and break into cars, but there is a growing school of thought that heat
might actually be doing something to our brains to make us behave differently.
Solomon stressed that he’s an economist, so this really isn’t his field,
but he did give me a rough summary:
[Solomon] You know, like, a third of the calories you eat get burned by your brain.
So your brain gets really, really warm. It's like a computer just running all the time. And all of
that heat has to go somewhere. And so it actually comes out in your jugular vein in your throat,
down your neck, and then spreads out to your skin where your skin then releases that heat to your
external environment. And so, as the temperature around you gets hotter and hotter,
your skin doesn't work as well, to cool you down. And so that goes back upstream. And what you see
is that your brain temperature actually goes up. And so it's possible that that
is affecting people's judgement, their decision making, how their brain works. It's also possible
that some of the effect of temperature is discomfort
or a distraction. And it just makes it harder to you know, keep it together.
And so trying to figure out, you know, which one of those things it is, is quite a challenge.
[Marnie] I know that our body works really hard to keep our temperatures constant, but it could be that a small
change in temperature is basically making us overheat, a bit like computers?
[Solomon] I mean, that seems like it could be the case. And one of my former students, Patrick Bayless,
he did this really interesting study where he basically just looked at a billion different
tweets from all across the United States. And what he saw is that when it gets hotter
and hotter, people tweet fewer smiley faces and more frowny faces, when it gets hotter
people swear more in their tweets. And so it really looks like something about just like how
we feel about the world around us changes as it gets warmer - it could be that
our brains are just like overheating a little or it could just be something else about you know,
our mood, like your caller asked. [Marnie] Did he establish an optimum temperature
where people seemed to be tweeting, I don't know, like more happy emojis and less swearing?
[Solomon] Yeah, so in his case, he found that, you know, people are very comfortable at
the temperatures you would expect. So, I mean, depending where you are in the world around like 25C.
People know when they're comfortable, and they're feeling good. And I think that's
what's good for the human body. I think we all sort of have some intuition about that.
And we try to seek it out, but that's one reason we don't always realise, I think,
how much the environment around us and the temperature affects our mood.
It's very hard to be so self-aware that you realise
that every time you get a little bit warmer, you also get a little bit crankier.
[Marnie] So much of the research into our behaviour and the weather is irritatingly fuzzy. Growing a human in
optimum healthy conditions appears to be a lot more complicated than growing a tomato plant.
Some of us claim to love the winter cold, others flourish in bikini weather.
So what can I say with confidence?
Serotonin is a key hormone that stabilises our mood and feelings of happiness.
Scientists who’ve looked at how sunshine affects the level of serotonin we’re able
to process in the spring and summer have concluded it’s not about temperature,
but access to daylight, and outside, direct daylight, that makes a difference.
But it does seem our decision-making abilities can be affected by warm weather…
After a cold spring, we’re more likely to perform well on
certain tasks when we’ve been out in the sunshine.
But the heat sensitivity works two ways. Once we start to feel uncomfortable in that sunshine,
when it’s too hot, we become less good at problem solving and more likely to behave irrationally.
Listener Michael wondered if it’s healthier for us to live in a warm
and sunny climate – and it’s a question which will influence billions of lives,
whether we like it or not, thanks to climate change.
There are certain species where an extra degree of warmth is a matter of life or death.
For us it’s more subtle, but still really important.
That's why economists like Solomon are getting involved.
Global warming will affect our behaviours and health,
and he wants to know how. Although most of us don’t have the luxury of moving elsewhere,
we are uniquely positioned, as the species that does all this research,
to work out how a warmer world will alter us. So we can at least face the future better prepared.
Thank you to Michael in Australia, for asking this question and over to him for the credits.
[Michael] We’ve reached the end of this week's CrowdScience.
Today's question came from me, Michael in gloomy Melbourne.
The show was presented by Marnie Chesterton and produced by Marijke Peters.
If you've got something that's been bugging you, and you want the BBC team to investigate,
write to them. The email address is [email protected]
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc
YoutubeToText
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https://youtubetotext.net/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc