This discussion explores the often-blurred lines between branding and marketing, challenging the notion that branding is a luxury for established companies, and emphasizing the crucial interplay and overlap between the two disciplines for business success.
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so guys when melinda calls I answer and
here we are Melinda's like I think it's
time for another meeting but the switch
up today is that she's brought in
another person that you are familiar
with too if you're familiar with the
channel none other than Fabian Geralt
our he's here and I think we're gonna be
talking about something that started to
get under the skin of a lot of creative
people Donald Miller put out this video
about the importance of marketing over
branding and he gave branding a short
shrift for sure in this video branding
though is a luxury I think you need to
be making about 500 million dollars
before you even start thinking a whole
lot about branding and get your colors
right your logo and that sort of stuff
but branding people have to be familiar
with your brand in order to be trained
to feel a certain way about your brand
until then you need to do marketing
because marketing is really where you
make your money marketing is when you
tell somebody to buy your product and
you explain why they should buy your
product mostly because I think he's a
marketing guy of course he's going to
talk about marketing so I think that
sets the stage for the conversation
let's see where this goes
so Melinda what are we talking about
today we're talking about the difference
between branding and marketing okay so
you have a perspective on this not yet I
know that's why I wanted to to bring the
cat yeah our cat here okay I'm sure I
have an opinion on it that I am unable
to yet articulate yeah but I would like
to hear from both of you and your
perspectives because as a brand identity
designer term brand strategist there's a
lot of overlap and marketing and from
hearing that Donald Miller video about
like we shouldn't even worry about it
until the company was that what did he
say 50 50 million he changed his mind
throughout the video but 50 million yeah
50 million yeah you shouldn't even worry
about branding unless you're a 50
million dollar how okay he started
out with 500 I know it changed yeah 500
million and then it went down and then
he corrected himself 250 okay and baby
and you work with a lot of startups too
yes we're not at that point with
companies of all sizes and Melinda sent
me the video and my head exploded
and I'm like wait a minute Don Miller is
a good guy he's talking about story
branding like that's his friend right
yeah that's it
that's a name literally the name of his
book ran right um
and I read it and I you know I I liked
it quite a bit and then I see this video
and I see the statement and I was like
yeah Melinda I'm ready to talk about
that okay well I gotta ask you because I
watched it and I think there was a lot
of fire in theory before I watched a
video so I'm like chill just watch it
objectively try to remain neutral and
watch this thing and see what's getting
people all prickly about it so you said
your your head exploded so one of the
things that he said that really made you
think I don't agree with this point of
view so I think that we did he position
it it was one of those quick videos I I
think he the way he framed that was a
little bit misleading and that's what
gets everyone fired up including myself
but rightfully so right because you
shouldn't frame something in that way in
my eyes right the way that he talked
about it needs to be a 50-million
company dollar company before you even
start branding it makes absolutely no
sense so to me this is very much the
cart before the horse right because you
this is a very like antiquated analogy
here but you cannot you cannot talk
about something you cannot market if you
haven't branded it yet like if you don't
know what you're talking about
right and in the video he also talked
about simon psionics famous why and he
says there's no need to ask why you just
need to send emails at that point you
just email email email and don't ask the
question why behind the company and to
me that is completely against my
fundamental ideas right and like you
first have to create a platform you have
to create a brand platform to really
derive why the company exists you know
you have to create obviously the company
name I mean it's basic branding pieces
that need to be in place the reason why
he said it is because he talked about
this 50 million dollar company that said
we need to do branding and he's like no
you don't so what doesn't work in this
video is that of course the company
already had to spend a lot of money on
branding otherwise it would have never
gotten to 50 million dollars hmm okay
anything else Todd for now okay
being so accommodating okay I think
let's first understand the structure of
these kinds of videos because I make
these kinds of videos too they're
designed to push buttons and to incite
your emotions because nobody cares if
he's like I love branding a lot
marketing let's talk about marketing
today nobody from the design side nobody
on the brand space would would even care
nobody would share this video look what
do you think so he's doing I think what
many people that are really smart about
positioning says I'm for this and right
now I'm not for that so it gets all the
people that are yes we're marketers and
I also want us to kind of be aware of
our own bias or biases
right or biases however you say that
word which is your branding guy so of
course you think branding is really
important I think I didn't fully realize
this before but he's really a marketing
guy he's teaching people how to market
their products and services so he's a
marketing guy and I think and this is
our own kind of we want to shape reality
the way we see it so I'm just trying to
look at like as robotically as I can
what is being said and what is more
important or whatever so let's get into
that okay let's just say you have a
product and you have a hundred thousand
dollars do you spend that on branding
would you spend that on marketing I
think you have to divide it in a very
smart way okay right I mean you should
in his thirty seventy rule is is not a
bad rule right I mean out of that budget
you should must probably take 30 you
know percent or so on branding because
you have to establish everything right
you have to create the word before you
spread the gospel right and so marketing
is advertising it's basically putting
the word out there you need to do a ton
lot of that right but you first need to
define what in the business for so I
think it does make sense that you split
less for branding and more for marketing
because if people don't hear about it
they're not gonna buy your stuff and if
they don't buy your stuff you're out of
business right yeah mm-hmm I think I can
also imagine why I put out this video
because he consults for firms probably
50 million and up and they're like we're
gonna spend all the money on branding is
that well you have no business so after
hearing that for a while a piece like
this comes up that's why I like some
people like Chris you're really salty
it's like well I've heard this question
and in people beating their head against
the wall so many times that eventually I
come to the conclusion like this is what
you guys need to hear and let's cut out
the BS let's get started because you're
here because you don't have enough
runway there's not enough revenue to
talk about you're gonna be out of
business in six months we got to fix
that and stop spending money on branding
okay so let's take a step back for
people who are like branding marketing
these are like terms I use all the time
interchangeably let's start with the
definition of branding okay the way that
you see it what is branding you know I
have different ways but but I'll just
you know off the cuff now you know what
what is branding I mean branding really
is that it establishes the why behind
the brand it establishes a look and feel
it establishes a positioning and an a
differentiator in the marketplace and
all of that combined is the beginning of
branding and so I think it gets
complicated right because in one of your
posts recently Chris you're not about
branding being something that gets
people to come back marketing is
something to get people to go to in the
first place
that - I think is a fine line right
because without the brand being created
you know you can't eat market so it's
like branding marketing branding
marketing it kind of goes in it goes in
this flow yeah so branding on the one
hand is establishing that emotional
connection and then on the other hand is
to keep it up right and go back to our
values and make sure that we keep
evolving our brands but marketing is
obviously key to getting the message out
right so when I hear this it's like okay
I'm a graphic designer
I've been calling my logo branding what
you're saying sounds a little bit
different than what I've been doing and
so I think it's healthy for us to have
this conversation and and do like a
public service announcement that if you
make a logo if you make a mark you're an
identity designer your logo maker a lot
of foreign person you're not a branding
person yet it's one facet but it's just
one very small facet actually right so
when you say it's the why behind the
company establishing the look and feel diff
diff
and shading through positioning what
does that look like what are what are
the things that you make when you help
somebody brand their company their
product or service so in the beginning
it's a brand platform as the industry
calls it right so it's really
identifying how do it's kind of like a
business plan but a brand plan right
what do we stand for why do we exist how
do we differentiate how do we need to
position our company to stand out what
is the big why I call it a because
statement right you know this is why we exist
exist
you know what connects with customers
and understanding the customers before
you even launch understanding who will
these people be what channels are they
on right how can we connect with them
read the comments in social media and
start becoming part of top psyche all of
that even though it could be seen as
marketing that should be established as
part of branding before you even create
a name for the company before you even
create the logo and the visual aspects
and then all of that needs to be derived
in some sort of verbal aura to write
like a toolbox of what are the right
words that we use how do we want to
speak how do we want to be seen as a
company are we you know I would a friend
you know I would a leader right how do
we want to come across all of that needs
to be established and like you said the
logo is one little component of it but
people think it's a huge component
because that's what they see but the
rest they feel and I think that is so
crucial and that's why Donald Miller's
video the way that he positioned it was
just like because it was just positioned
not in the correct way mmm is branding
eccentric or client centric in your
opinion how do you mean it by eccentric
well you say well why do we exist what
what is it we're doing what's the look
and feel do we design that based on our
values and beliefs and our purpose and
mission or do we look at what customers
want and design our identity around
serving a community there's a trap wash
anyway no absolutely both in a way it's
in the end it comes to shared values
right but the values need to come from
it from within all right so I interview
a ton of entrepreneurs every two weeks
from my podcast and every time it's the
same story of this is why I start this
company I have a strong belief
I'm really driven to this discos it
totally against the grain but I need to
do this and I need to do this this way
and you know what there are people out
there who think like me and those are
the ones that I want to come aboard
soon the entrepreneur knows it's not
self centric because in the end it's
still all about the customer when they
create a product or service but there
needs to be this strong stigma attached
kind of like this diss soul attached to
it and there's nothing more natural then
when the soul comes from from the
entrepreneur right because then they can
actually really lead the company and
talk the talk
right so what you're talking about is if
we were to draw two circles there's an
overlap between our beliefs and values
and our customers beliefs and values and
where that alignment that crossover
starts to become part of our
differentiator what we stand for who we
champion and so we have to study the
customers a bit too right perfect
exactly now the reason why I think a lot
of people are upset over this video I
think it's a little misguided now I'm
gonna share some of my opinion because
marketing and branding depending on your
definition are almost the same thing
there's a lot of overlap seriously like
we're we're like blood cousins we might
even be twins and one just focuses on
something else and where this really
gets I think a little tricky for us is
the traditional definition of marketing
we're not the same creature but as
marketing is evolving an understanding
of marketing as is branding we're
starting to see a lot of overlap between
those two worlds and that's why I'm like
if you just take the word branding and
switch it out for the win he says
marketing you'll be okay again right
right it's because we need to do
something that moves the needle for our
clients if our clients are not in
business if they're not getting the word
out if they're nonprofit NGO if we can't
get awareness about what it is we're
doing then we don't exist we're just
talking to ourselves and that's I think
called insanity so we need to understand
who the customers are see so we're I
don't like get all crazy about this is I
have a newer appreciation for the word
marketing depending on who talking about
it so we talked to Seth Godin when we
read his book about this as marketing
it's like yeah the old idea of marketing
was just advertising it's just
repetition of message over all media and
controlling the dialogue well today you
know you can't do that
Moritz push-push verse it is right so
now he's like marketing is the generous
act of helping other people achieve
their goals now you might say wait wait
wait just let's use the word branding in
their branding is the generous act of
helping or let's use the word sales
sales is you know set so it's all kind
of like we're starting to come up with a
much more healthy definition of the role
and purpose of companies as they relate
to their customers and you know the best
brand strategists or even visual brands
people right the best ones are the ones
that keep up with marketing and the
understand marketing and they're
actually interested in marketing the
interesting and selling right because Oh
sparks fly in the intersection of
marketing and branding of course now
you're successful and you wouldn't be if
all you cared about was like meeh meeh
meeh let's do the look and feel and you
don't actually help your customers get
awareness get customers get traction
improve in the marketplace they're gonna
be out of business all right so you have
to solve a real business problem and one
of the biggest functions in business is
sales and in doing a little research for
that Instagram post I came upon this
thing about marketing and I can't
remember but it was the CEO of a very
large multi-billion dollar company he
said marketing is the most important
thing that our company does that's why
we don't trust the marketing people to
do it and there are different
definitions about what marketing is and
marketing can include and should
probably include product design user
experience journey mapping everything so
from top to bottom because now we know
if one part of your story is out of
alignment then it's all out of alignment
and it's not true this is why
traditional marketing doesn't work
anymore today because you cannot say
something that isn't backed up by actual
experience you and I are more likely to
go on Amazon read the 300 reviews and
see what people say then to see any
piece of advertising and print in social
or any other place because we just don't
trust people anymore but we trust people
who we have some kind of connection to
that's why influencer marketing is quite
popular and integrated branding is
really popular it's because now we trust
these people and we rely on them to vet
what is good not good for us right and
it's interesting to think about how
these reviews actually ended up there
right so I'm an author so I wrote two
books I know your your your writing -
yes in the middle of it almost done
what's the status done there we go
pre-order link it was somewhere in those
it is not easy to get reviews it is
really really difficult
English people rave about your book yeah
it's really hard to get them to do it
right so that process of actually
getting people to review your book so
that then others can read the reviews
and feel like oh there's not even
branding and marketing involved there's
still behind the scenes right I think
that's that's an interesting yeah you
know angle to look at and something else
that I was thinking about while you were
talking if you think about you know
universities universities branding if it
ever is being taught in universities in
some I know it is it falls on the
marketing I am 100% certain of that
right so this is kind of like this
curveball right of like how does
marketing and branding really relate I'm
sure that there's a hierarchy that
branding actually is part of marketing
it wasn't in my education they were two
completely separate things and they and
both looked at each other as oh that's
horrible you don't want to be in the
marketing department marketing we'll
look at us oh I still look this is still
kind of like the stigma right but I'm
wondering you went to art school right
you went to design school right so I
think it's different than if you go to
you know a regular dish but Chris drop
it because I'm interested to hear about
that you know that was just a thought
that it's kind of like bubbles up to
marketing what do you want me to drop
you're looking for a fight this is maybe
I'm looking for a fight so let's give it
to I came in with this weird attitude
this morning you have to be prepared
okay so what do you want me to drop it
which I drop no I'm interested in how
you see do you see because we're talking
about branding versus marketing right
and on my drive here I thought about
wait a minute if Mark if branding is
taught in a regular University it might
be taught under the marketing umbrella
do you see it that way too because
obviously we feel that the two of them
are very related but yet they can be put
into their own little you know area okay
I see you're setting you up to say
something that's gonna be controversial
so I will deliver
I honestly think from the few exposures
that I've had to how branding or
marketing is taught it's vastly outdated it
it
very textbook it's a very analytical and
not much creativity is introduced in
there and I think I think it becomes
dangerous when we start to apply labels
and get into tribalism where it's like
the marketing people look down on the
branding people and the branding people
look down on the marketing people if all
of us had said what is the end goal of
what we're trying to do which is to
improve our clients business to make an
impact on their bottom line period all
the other stuff to me is tactics like
how do we get there and what you call it
I don't really care it starts to me it
starts with understanding who the
customers are and seeing how that would
align with what we want to do in the
world so that we can find that overlap
so maybe there's a major called overlap
and we sit down and we study what users
want and who we are and then we teach
people the different facets but they
don't have to go eight semesters into
like making one mark
well you're not talking about now which
was really the question you're talking
about the future maybe I should have
Fabian on every show because just how
promote every course book and initiative
we have just like the sound
yeah yeah I think that's the problem
Sarah who's off camera right now it was
controlling the audio she just gave me
basically part one of two parts of what
she's learned in school and marketing I
had lots of questions for her but one of
the things that we kind of concluded was
they teach you kind of the theory of it
the idea but not so much like now what
now what do you do with this information
is that fair Sarah okay so that's kind
of like where we're stuck and you and I
know there are classes that design
schools I call it they call it branding
but it's not branding at all right it's
really identity design systems that's
really all it is because if you're not
thinking about the name if you don't
understand positioning and marketing and
messaging and copywriting and shaping
the voice not just to look you're really
not getting into that so it turns out
this is actually very difficult stuff
mm-hmm you you have to be masters of
multiple disciplines and this is this is
a tall order
I think in his book the brand flip Marty
was talking about the skills required to
be a really great brand strategist and
he says what five
people can really do this so it's a very
small group of people you have to think
visually you have to be able to
communicate articulate with words you
have to think high level the 30,000 foot
view so now we've pretty much chopped
the whole field down right and you have
to co-create right then I think that was
important when you talked about things
Hill aberration yeah when you talked
about branding and marketing they cannot
be separated but guess what happens with
client work marketing and sales is
separated right so it keeps all of these
Silas and that's why all these companies
have these issues right so when we
create a brand with with an entrepreneur
and you know in his team most of them
are marketers some of them is just found
a co-founder when these people go back
to the rest of the company they were not
included right
dear-dear sales it's like oh you just
push you just push but that's not how it
works right
mm-hmm okay I have a question about all this
this
so if labels aren't that important but
potential clients and entrepreneurs are
listening to people like Donald Miller
so in their head they're thinking
marketing marketing marketing that's
what I need but then all of us who work
on branding or calling ourselves brand
strategist or we do branding and it's
there's a disconnect then between
entrepreneurs looking for an answer in
marketing but then we're all calling it
branding would it boohoo some of us to
actually say we're a marketing firm to
then connect with and attract those
clients that are potentially looking at
and listening to people like don't yeah
I mean you can call yourself whatever
you want the proof is in the pudding
what is it that you really do what are
the functions of the company and what
are your goals so this is a question
that comes up quite a bit there if
there's this invisible pressure that
people feel in the creative space that
do more and offer more and yet we're
known we know less about the stuff that
we're doing and so calling yourself a
brand strategist a branding person a
marketer of integrated marketing
branding company you can call yourself
whatever you want but here's the problem
what is it that you really do I like to
look at it to function and then you can
design whatever label you want around it
right so if Donald Miller if Donald
Miller is out there and
he's saying these things he's just one
voice and I think we're over amplifying
the weight and influence that this one
person has because for every one Donald
Miller talked about marketing there's
probably thirty five branding people
talking about branding when you go to
design conference a very few of them are
titled like what to do with marketing
it's almost like ID any design and
branding is I know this because I go to
conferences all the time so again I just
think we're conflating like his presence
and his influence and that he has a
magical ability to reach out to all
these companies or hiring people and
then to diminish what it is that you do
at the end of day if your focus is not
to make a big impact on your clients
business you will be eventually out of
business that's it
so it's about priorities for you and I
think I mean if you call yourself a
marketing firm this implies to the
actual client that you will do social
media whatever ends with marketing right
social media marketing advertising
content marketing content marketing all
these things did you actually might not
do right so I think it would go the
wrong the wrong way they're they're
still there are all of these stickers on
the things that we do right and the
problem is like we can unpeeled and we
know what's behind but but clients don't
right so it's really difficult to to
discuss what do you do and who you are
with one label I think that's and that's
what Chris was heading to you have to
start coming up with creative ways of
describing your practice of how you help
clients you know so for us it's clarity
and focus right because that's really
why people come to me I realized they
don't come for a logo that might be an
end result right but they come for
clarity and focus yeah I speak that way
now because that resonates with them
yeah when you're speaking more towards
their problem - so you're selling the
problem you're not selling a service
yeah I learned it from Donald Mill yes
yeah I think in in his book the one-page
marketing plan written by Alan did he
describes his actually really kind of
interesting scenario he says so like the
circus is coming to town and this is
your business and you have an elephant
and you you paint or a sign on elephant
he's oh that's called promotion okay and
then you bring the elephant and March
them into town
and it happens to trample flowers that's
called publicity and then the mayor is
upset that you've trampled his flowers
but you talk it over and he's okay with it
it
that's called public relations and if
you hand out a bunch of Flyers saying
the circus is coming to town
that's called advertising and if you
have people come up to the booth near
the tent and ask questions about the
circus I think he calls that sales and
he's a if you designed the whole thing
that's called marketing so it's kind of
interesting his old definition and so I
probably messed up some parts of that
story but I remember it was like it was
a good way to look at this right and so
we're all like very inclined to like
define silos like this is my job does
what I do I only do sales and that's
probably a short-sighted thing because
this integration collaboration
co-creation is actually very important
because we're starting to realize people
buy and behave in very different ways
than they used to and so we need to work
to build more versatile units of people
collaborating and and being cross
discipline with somebody who's looking
at the bigger picture now
let's pretend I told that story
correctly and I put the labels on it
correctly what do you guys think about
that story and would you change any of
the definitions I would ask then what
how could branding be incorporated in
that no no this is a book on marketing
it wasn't you were to add to it like
what do you think where is branding in
that I asked you first
no you didn't you asked me second I
asked you guys what do you think of that
story now stop this whole conversation
is about branding and marketing yeah so
but you're part of the conversation
right so I'm asking you what do you
think about that little story okay
here's here's how we should have
compartmentalize it to make it a little
easier did any of the scenarios and the
descriptions feel like they're out of
alignment just replay it you know paint
it trample through the flowers publicity
its featured the newspaper right it's
publicity then the
Mayers not upset it's called public
relations and then you go to the tent
and that's called sales but the design
of the whole thing is called marketing
it's the high level strategic planning
of these things the execution is tactics
any of those scenarios sound like
they're off to you handing out flyers
doesn't sound like advertising it does
right it's like a reputation of a
message it's a one-way one-to-many form
of communication and I go off I like I
like your question right like how
weirdest branding fit into this right
it's always like Marsha Marsha Marsha
it's like what about me
where am I in a story can we get back to
what's important didn't she ask the
question yeah yeah no you're right yeah
the question that's all
okay yeah because because it is it is it
is you know now we compartmentalize
again right the different the different
aspects of it but but where does
branding fit into I think it's a super
interesting question and I wonder myself
right because we as branders would look
at it and like well the entire thing is
branding right I hated that right yes so
are we the ones and I believe that's how
it would be who are behind the scenes
that that the tell the elephant to start
going push right and say okay now the
elephant is ready now the elephant
represents what we wanted - elephant to
represent now the elephant looks the way
that it should look and you know it you
know pick the right elephant - yeah not
the gray one you know just make it yours
right so but but I think that that's
kind of how it fits in what do you think
it's a nice are it's just boosts our
conversation about that no no I don't I
don't know Fabian because the way I
would look at is where does the branding
person fit in
I think the branding person fits in
where you talked to the person who owns
the circus the Ringling Brothers and you
say you guys are entertainers this is
what you do this is part of your family
and you like putting on big shows like I
wonder what people like the same kinds
of things
Oh small towns they they're like looking
for a little magic and mystery I wonder
what their needs are and then you start
to align those two things and say look
there's this thing what's call it the
circus right and we can bring in something
something
like animals or maybe we can do
something like performers doing
acrobatics and tricks and lion taming
does that sound so we start to design
and craft experience and we think how
will we get the word out why don't we
bring an elephant and why don't we paint
it well what color should we use and how
should that look what kind of elephant
should we bring in and then so on and so
forth and this is if I'm listening to
you and I'm just going through your
words there it's the why like why do we
want to do this what are we trying to do
we're we're an entertainment company
well what's the look and feel it should
be a kind of very mmm it should feel
accessible it should feel friendly and
fun and joyful or maybe you should feel
European like this let's call it do
Soleil and that's what we'll do right
and we'll get rid of the animals because
people don't like animals being treated
unwell okay so that's that's what we'll
do instead of animals we'll do this and
we'll we'll use theatrics and lighting
and and pyrotechnics and hydraulics to
create the show nobody's ever seen before
before
what should we call it how should we
talk about this circus of the Sun that
sounds pretty cool let's do that let's
come up with 15 iterations of a name so
that's what branding fits in so if we
use that okay I mean I'm just using
Fabian's story here yes I think there's
a couple alternatives to that that's an
intentional one that's actually sitting
down and saying this is what we're
setting out to do and in planning all of
that and then moving forward there's the
others that do and I would say somes do
start with just the marketing they pick
a random elephant they walk them through
town and they just go for it but even in
that they're still branding that's
happening it's just not intentional
that's how I'm seeing it okay do you I
don't know look at this I do have an
opinion I'm just processing your
thoughts there let's take the same
circus thing no we know that there's
been a big shift away from the
traditional circus that we see in cinema
and the ones that are successful now
like Cirque du Soleil so let's pretend
this circus thing and and they did a
little bit the promotions that publicist
advertising all that kind of stuff and
they expected a thousand people to show
up but 400 people showed up and they
keep doing this over and over again and
so their business is dwindling doc do we
need a new logo it's like what are we
doing so they approached Fabian Design
Consulting Group right or Melinda
livesey Consulting Group and they asked
you what should we do so the Brander
says we need to rebrand let's call it
something else like how much do we
change of the clients core business to
help them the marketer would probably
say I know how to market this we gotta
get on social media there's this new
thing so each person falls back on their
discipline and what they think works but
the true person this overlap person says
I don't know people want this anymore
if you're if your joy is to entertain
people it's not through animals per se
and if this is the problem in terms of
how society is moving look what can we
do with what's core to who you are and
what people want let's get rid of
animals let's get into this business of
performing humans doing extra Norden
extraordinary feats let's do that let's
change your whole business so to me that
whether you call that branding or
marketing it doesn't really matter it's
this is what's gonna move the needle and
to me that clearly falls into the
branding aspect right when you said
let's give it a new name let's give it a
new logo I think that's how a lot of
people think about branding but really
it is
let's ask first why like why do you
exist does this make sense it's just the
right audience should we even be doing
this should we bring in right so I think
it is it is a it is not even agreement
what you're saying I understand but I
don't necessarily have the same point of view
view
I'm just saying okay let me ask you this
question if we talk about positioning as
a discipline and for our audience who
doesn't know what that might mean
positioning is the art or the strategy
of occupying a space a position in a
person's mind okay and you say that's a
vital function of branding is it is it
exclusive to branding or do people who
do marketing also do positioning mmm
true that right yeah okay
so if we were to pull our audience right
now those people who are watching this
let us know down below if you call
yourself a branding person how many of
you guys actually do positioning for
your clients and even know what the heck
that is I'm going to suspect it's gonna
drop like okay people who call
themselves branding people actually just
did logo design so that drops off most
of the people and the people who truly
do branding how many of you guys
actually think about positioning and
being strategic about that that numbers
gonna drop so now we have four people
left watching but if we were to ask
marketing people how many of you guys do
positioning I would say it's a pretty
high percentage would you agree or
disagree yeah no I totally okay yeah so
this is my own bubble with issue are
yeah so you are yourself some hybrid
graphic designer brand er brand
strategist incorporating certain facets
of marketing traditionally definitions
and so then your definition of branding
might be exclusive to you right now
because you're a unique person right
maybe a lot of unique yes not only the
glass majority right everyone who calls
themselves a brand strategist they would
they would come from the same place of
solutioning isn't an role for us to do
and the people that do brand strategy
are they're more likely to have a
background in graphic design or
marketing or sales that's an exquisite
question and I can't answer it but I
have a feeling it tends more to how its
marketing and I might think I'll tell I
don't think I don't think you're off of
that see so now we're like okay so where
we disagree and why we got all fired up
over this maybe it's like misguided in
my opinion because maybe there's some
truth to what he's saying if we just
base it on the law of averages and what
we're seeing out there today not where
it's going but where it is today in
terms like the traditional role and
responsibilities of marketing versus
branding let's just say so we still
upset at Donald Miller for saying what
he's saying oh absolutely
okay let's talk about it no no no the
things it I don't like when little you
know little YouTube clips yeah are
overly self-serve video sometimes a
little bit a little bit you know like
miss misleading
right especially in today's climate
right into saying that you should not
brand until you have 50 million five
hundred million whatever guy that just
is not correct right when it comes out
of context and it was out of context you
know and not asking the question why and
instead sending email of the email of a
email that does not make a lot of sense
to because the email needs to come from
from from a space of why right so but
other than that he is fantastic I love
his stuff but this was something good to
pick on you know because of course it
was it was getting us interested in okay
so how does this really work right Melinda
Melinda
have we put this issue to bed yes it
might wake up with a nightmare just
breathe okay well I think that's it
thank you everybody and thank you all so
Melinda and Fabian for joining me here
in the studio and having this very
thought-provoking conversation about the
differences between marketing and
branding and perhaps our instincts is to
go really kind of tribal and say this is
us this is them and it's war when we
actually step back we're all the same
family it's cousins and we're all better
off by having broader more open-minded
discussions about different disciplines
so that we can learn what to integrate
into what it is that we do for the
purpose of improving and impacting our
clients business the end with that you
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