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Ep #19: How to Talk so Kids Will Listen with Julie King & Joanna Faber | The Child Psych Podcast | Institute of Child Psychology | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Ep #19: How to Talk so Kids Will Listen with Julie King & Joanna Faber | The Child Psych Podcast
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This podcast episode discusses practical strategies for parents to improve communication and connection with their children, moving away from punishment and coercion towards understanding and collaborative problem-solving, particularly during challenging moments like sibling disputes and technology conflicts.
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hello and welcome to the Childs podcast
my name is Tammy Shimon and today I have
Julie King and Joanna with us to talk
about some of their work and how to get
our kids listening we need our kids
listening every parent needs their kids
listening so thank you so much we're g
to dive into some great creative
strategies when our kids give us push
back and how we still stay connected
during these really hard moments I got
three kids and there is fighting in our
house and it's always always in need of
some tips and tricks and I think all all
parents are um so welcome just so
honored to have both of you agreed to
come on the podcast today thank you
thank you for having us and it's good to
hear there's fighting in your house
because that's how you know your kids
are alive oh yeah I was like there you
know you can't have Ying without Ying I
was like they love each other but of
course you know I've got the
six-year-old the 8-year-old and the
15-year-old and it's usually conflicts
around the six and 8year old because
they're so close in age um but you know
I always think of conflict as
opportunity for growth and how to
reconnect and how to make repairs and I
think that's what I really love about
your books it's very much a focus moving
away from punishment and how how to
really look at how to teach your kids
problem solving and how to stay
connected during hard moments and not
how to use fear and
coercion um during difficult parenting
moments which unfortunately often is
kind of what happens our families are
taught that we use fear and control in
order to get what we need done as
parents but that comes at a cost to kids
psychology into their mental health and
the parents mental
health so we just love your book well
there's two of your books I have one of
them with me right now uh the F now the
in let's go in order here so the first
one is that you wrote was how to talk so
little kids will listen right that was
the first one and your second book is
how to talk when kids won't listen
correct I got it right y beautiful so
what I love it's very anyone listening
their books are very practical like if
parents are like what do I do when this
happens like they've got an illustration
for that they've got dialogue for how to
navigate that and I think parents with
how crazy the world is right now and how
stressed parents are they need practical
right don't want a little bit of the
psychology is great but your books are
just very Hands-On and I found that you
know these were probably one of I don't
know this might be the most practical
parenting book next to no drama
discipline that I've seen with such like
though your book and no drama discipline
are just so concrete and so easy and
actionable you very actionable it's a
very actionable books because it can be
hard to take Theory and figure out how
to put it into practice okay so we have
some Theory but what do you actually say
in the moment that's what we're that's
what we're trying to do in our books so
I'm glad that it worked for you yeah so
you know whether it's about sibling
disputes or homework it could be really
frustrating where kids aren't listening
and then we use you know parents I mean
I'm guilty of that using threats like
when the kids won't listen I'm pretty
sure we just came back for our honeymoon
and I'm pretty sure one of my threats
was if you don't clean your room then
we're not going to Mexico that did not
go over well
well
let me tell you that did not go over
well with my highly sensitive
eight-year-old so I know better yet here
I was using this threat because we're
all stressed to get on the plane on time
um when parents have this they they're
like resorting to punishing or yelling
or you know coercion where do you even
start getting out of that pattern with
kids like where would you guys tell
parents to start if they're using that
all the time threats and screaming oh okay
okay
um that's a broad question so I'll try
to start with a broad answer which is
that I think we want to start with
focusing on the behavior and how to get
the behavior we want right you know how
do we get the kid to clean that room and
and that leads to you know coming up
with a punishment coming up with a
threat you know and and it's very
understandable because we need that
behavior um so that's what we're focused
on but it's going to help if instead of
focusing on the
behavior we think about what is going on
for the kid at that moment you know why
aren't they cleaning their room um is it
just too overwhelming and they don't
know where to start are they you know in
the middle of a video game and it's very
engaging and they can't quite stop did
they just have a fight with their older
sister and they're in a bad mood um so
you know there may have be some problem
having nothing to do with cleaning the
room and if we don't know where that
what that problem is our threats are
only going to upset the kid and you know
frankly you're not going to cancel those
plane tickets um you're probably just
going to have a kid with a
meltdown um you know so if it turns out
that that the the cleanup is
overwhelming and the kid doesn't know
where to start then we might
help them with that you know well let's
you know let's make a game of it let's
turn on some music and see if we can
pick up all the laundry and throw it in
a hamper by the end of the first song
now you have a good feeling you have a
Cooperative kid um you know you've
solved a problem instead of threatening
a punishment making your kid cry you
probably can't follow through on it
because it's non-refundable tickets but
but that's our basic rule is we try just
we try to back up a few steps and start
with how is the kid feeling what's going
on in their head instead of starting
with trying to get the behavior so what
I'm hearing is be curious about what
might be going on here it's it's kind of
like when you do I'm a in a past
lifetime I was a couples therapist and I
always would tell couples you're not
fighting about the dishwasher like
chances are you know something happened
that day or there was a rupture in your
Rel relationship and we have to stay
curious as to what might be going on for
that person what's going on for you and
that's what I'm hearing I'm hearing you
say be curious about what might this be
about yeah yeah and uh I think of it as
there's a connection between how people
feel and how people behave and we tend
to focus on the behavior when we're
looking at our kids but if we think for
ourselves when do we when are we not our
best selves as parents right I mean you
just told us I yelled at them and
threatened them about going to Mexico
when I knew we're going to go right like
what was going on for you I'm just gonna
guess even though I wasn't there in your
body in your house that you were feeling
really anxious about making the plane
and about getting everything done before
you had to go and H leaving the house in
some sort of semblance of order so when
you came back it wasn't in chaos you
know and probably there were details
about the and the and the you know all
the things that were going on in your
head about the planning and uh oh
there's this there's this obstacle in
our way to getting to the airport my
kids's not doing what I need them to do
but you felt stressed about it right
probably and on another day when things
were calm and there was no time pressure
and there wasn't a wedding to try to get
to you would have handled it differently
right oh yeah I I was a mess for three
days until the wedding happened and of
course and my kids are perfect angels
once the wedding happened but they kids
pick up on our stuff too so what I'm
hearing is just that reflection parents
need to pause and say you know is my
reaction coming from my own stress and
my own life circumstances and you know
sometimes really small things cast a
really big Shadow when we have things
going on for us yeah we we like to say
that you know kids can't act right when
they don't feel right and people can't
act right when they don't feel right you
know such as ourselves even grownups so
so we we start with the feeling and we
move from there and it kind of seems
like the long way around you know it
seems more direct to just say you know
get this the next time I walk down this
Hall the room better be clean or else
but you know sometimes the longer way
actually turns out to be the shorter way
because when everybody feels better they
feel cooperative and things get done and
then the stress goes
down Okay so let's just roll with this
let's let's let's let's dissect that
interaction with my daughter that's fun
let's do that I'm sure she'll look back
on this one Dan said mom why did you do
that um so obviously my reaction about
my daughter not her room is a disaster
and like there's clothes everywhere and
I'm like we need to like we got to go
got to go in this you know this trip and
um I'm coercing her like basically
threatening her and that obviously is
not a good idea I know better it's not
my proudest parenting moment but let's
just air this all out to everybody who
listens what would you say based on your
your books your work what could I have
done differently in that moment let's
just make a guinea pig out of
me well I'm torn R could go in two
directions I can give you some ideas but
it really would help me to know why you
wanted her to clean it up so tell me can
you you tell me that first oh yeah I
would say it was we knew we had house
sitters coming and I didn't want the
house a mess cuz they're taking care of
it I had asked her several times to
clean her room before that and she
didn't obviously follow through with
that and we knew we had other things to
get done and we couldn't move on until
we had had this thing done because
somewhere in that heaping pile of mess
were her clothes she was taking to
had okay okay and she's eight right
yes so that gives me a little bit of a
better understanding of where she might
be coming from and why yet you you care
so much because when you told me the
story I I was making up my own reasons
why it needed to be cleaned up but they
weren't the same as your reasons and I'm
not sure she would know either um so
let's think about what's going on for
her well actually let me just ask you
why do you think she didn't clean up
like she's she was excited like there's
overwhelm there's you know a little
angst she's a little angsty she's highly
sensitive if you guys are familiar with
the term highly sensitive so she's
picking up on my feelings my H now
husband's feelings just everything and
she's kind of a messy kid anyway for
being honest like it is what it is um so
that's not her default setting to keep a
clean room in the first place but yeah
and of course I'm the parent who's like
it's your room normally I give them
space to keep their room like as is and
all of a sudden I'm asking like you need
to do this now and normally I'm pretty
much like it's your room it's fine keep
it somewhat manageable so I think maybe
the the expectations all the sudden
slapped her in the face and she's like
why do I need to do this now normally
you don't like you're not on me about my
room and all of a sudden I was on her
about the room yeah yeah okay so that's
where I would start is to acknowledge
what was going on for her this seems
kind of odd doesn't it that I'm asking
you to clean up your room normally I
don't right and let her I would let her
say yeah yeah Mom like what's the big
deal why can't I just close the door
right it just would be our Norm I I'm a
big fan of sunone listening I'm a big
fan of kids being able to keep their
rooms like it's their room it's their
clothes it's their things so no I don't
usually I'm not super huge on that I
mean common spaces are one thing but the
rooms are another so yeah but yeah this
so so but if you said that to her if you
actually said this might this might seem
kind of odd that I'm asking you to clean
it up and maybe you don't really like
that idea because usually it's supposed
to be your your room you decide then and
then here's the hard part as the parent
you pause and let her you know listen to
what she has to say and sounds like
she's gonna say yeah I you always say
it's my room I get to decide why do I
have to clean up now why are you making
such a big deal about it why you know
why can't I just leave I'll just close
the door why do I have to clean it
up absolutely and she would have done
really well with that hindsight she's
very a very communicative little little
girl yeah um but and normally we don't
resort to punishments because that we
know that does not work for highly
especially highly sensitive children
like they pick up on emotions too
quickly and they get flooded very very
easily yeah um uh yeah you did have some
reason that you gave me that because I
was actually listening like why are you
making your because I did the same thing
it's your room you know we'll cut this
we'll shut the door but you said
something about the house sitters and I
was like is that a real reason or is
that just like you're a little bit
uncomfortable that they're going to see
this like yeah oh yeah the perfectionist
to me is like we have company coming
over essentially and they're going to
see this mess and yeah I think I I you
know as a parent we're just being I've
never done this in a podcast I've never
like aired this out being like here's my
parenting issues guys yeah I I knew and
uh then of course I reacted and she
didn't listen because she was crying and
it would did not get done until what we
would have done which is what you should
done is
connect and sit with her and let the big
feelings happen and then well you also
have a plane to catch though so I'm I'm
like move it forward so so once you give
that pause and let your kid say whatever
she says then you can acknowledge that
say like oh so it doesn't even seem fair
to you because it's like I'm changing
the rules all of a sudden she's like
yeah it doesn't seem fair and then and
then you can now that you've listened to
her feelings and restated them and
acknowledged them now her mind is open
to hearing your feelings and then you
can say you know how it is for me I'm
you know and and she probably say how
and you can say you know I'm anxious
about getting to the plane on time I'm
you know worried about you know being
able you being able to see what you need
to pack which is under some of this
stuff and and not missing something and
ending up in Mexico you know with things
missing and and I also want to leave a
neat house for the house sitters because
it I just
do um so what should we do you know how
do you want to do this you know should
we put a put out a box that you can
throw your toys into should we put on
music I'm all about um you know come up
you know see what she wants to do see if
she comes up with an idea you know do
you want to put on a favorite song do
you want to to do you think we should
toss the laundry first or or the toys
first and you can start once you've
heard her and she's heard you you can
start moving towards Solutions you don't
have to say well my kid wants a messy
room so I guess that's what she gets um
you can still prefer to leave a clean
house for the house sitters and prefer
to have some kind of
organization um and it's going to take a
little more time out of your precious
you know window where you're trying to
get ready for the plane but then you're
going to have a Cooperative kid because
you listen to her you acknowledge her
feelings you told her your feelings
instead of threatening to punish her and
then you help her move on with some
choices tossing things is good music is
good um you know clean up all the green
things first you know how do you want to
do it uh yeah you guys got have wrote a
book on couples therapy this is the
strategies I would say I'm gonna take
that home and when I want me get my
husband to do something I'm gonna be
like we're gonna do that I'm going to
tell him my feelings he can share his
feelings and then we collaborate and say
here are some ways maybe do you have
ideas I have some ideas this sounds like
it it's practical across oh and I have
to say one more thing about cleaning up
because you know this is this is a big
thing for me I was also a person who let
the kids keep the room however they
wanted but when we had people coming you
know a bunch of people like oh it's
going to be Thanksgiving or you have a
uh for whatever reason I like the house
to be a little bit neat you know people
are going to come with their own stuff
put it on the counters people kids want
to come play in your room it's just
nicer um so I would you know Institute
these anxiety fueled cleanups and one of
my pitfalls was I would come in and the
kid would have
done something you know like they picked
up their dirty clothes and put away the
books but there's still tools and
crumpled papers all over the floor and
dirt and and I would say like whatat are
you doing sitting in your bed reading a
book you know the room is still a mess
look you know you can't walk through
here without slicing your foot open
uh and that was never helpful because
then a kid feels like well I made effort
and then I got yelled at so you know one
of the things we say in our book is
describe progress so if I was mindful
enough to think a little bit before I
open my mouth and frustration I would
say oh I see you got all the books away
and all the laundry and the laundry bin
now all that needs to be done is for the
tools to go in the tool chest and a
little bit of sweeping and this room
will be ready for home beautiful so if
you can describe with pleasure and
appreciation what the kid has
accomplished instead of attacking them
for not finishing the do job it will
give them the oomph to go on and finish
the job because who Among Us would
appreciate that you know if we did a
bunch of pots and pans and then and then
your partner comes in and says this
kitchen's still a filthy
mess you know you haven't cleared the
table you know that would really I would
I would stomp out yeah I think you get
like when you focus on catching them
being good I like my favorite thing with
my kids is you catch them being
cooperative catch them putting an effort
it puts them in that mode to follow your
lead because they're saying oh like Mom
or Dad notices these things they
appreciate it and then you're you're
cultivating like those positive habits
and kids too when you're and they're
just more likely to say yes they're when
they're being praised and they're and
you're noticing effort and they feel
visible and when kids feel visible
instead of shamed I think that puts them
in a receptive mode to follow our lead
is what I'm hearing when you're giving
that kind of
feedback yeah now let's talk about a
really specific issue that's you know
very relevant to to today's day and age
which are technology
disputes um I'm guessing like we're when
we're talking our kids it's you know
turning off the video games or putting
away the cell phone or they've had
enough iPad time um and it's time to to
shut that off and of course we know
attack kids escalate very quickly and oh
just five more minutes or I don't want
to turn it off or why can't I be on it
for you know teenagers want to connect
with their friends what Guidance Do you
have to parents who are really
struggling with that like getting their
kids you know to turn them off or to get
some space away from it I I believe you
guys a lot of people praised your book
for talking about
that it's a huge challenge for parents
we actually have a chapter in our new
book is it one chapter or two because
two chapters two chapters um because we
realize it's different depending on the
age of the kid but you know we always
like to start to think about okay what
is this issue like kids now think about
especially your little kids who they
have Play-Doh and they have soccer balls
and then they have the iPad and the the
the screens are the only toy the only
object thing that we give to them and
then we say but don't play it for too
long it's not good for you we never say
now this Play-Doh is really fun but
don't play it for too long don't play
soccer you're right you're right that's
a really good perspective cuz no I don't
ever tell my kids you can't keep making
art you can't I mean unless it's dinner
time but I don't put those kind of
guidelines on it will rot your
brains yeah like and it's it's really
cool but don't do too much of it yeah so
that's really confusing to a kid right
they think well I always explore
everything else why why not this and it
seems really cool you can sit there and
it has lights and colors and so many
different kinds of games and it's
challenging and it's just the right
challenge because if it isn't you change
it right um so I think that is I think
it's it's helpful to remember that
that's how a child experiences our our
attempts to limit their screen time like
it just doesn't seem to make sense to
them right um for younger kids we can
actually control their access and just
as the the other thing that we probably
don't give them unlimited access to is
like sweet so I just think it's really
helpful to think to compare what we do
with sweets that we don't want them to
have too much of and screens we don't we
you know we we limit their access like
we don't put a big bowl of chocolates on
at least I didn't but put a big bowl of
chocolates on the counter and say okay
but don't eat these you can have one
that's it you know even I would have a
hard time if you said you know here's
the chocolates don't eat them cuz then
you're like what are you thinking about
all day long like okay there's a
chocolate okay I'm not eating it I'm
need really like a lot of effort to not
eat it it's just very tempting right so
we have a lot of examples in our book
about what parents have done in terms of
rules around screen time and how they
can get their kids on board with those
instead of just making them feeling
resentful and like deprived because I want
want
it uh and one of the things I suggest
for for parents of younger kids is to
talk talk about what they can do not in
terms of minutes because a child doesn't
have a strong sense of what's five
minutes or 10 minutes and besides if
they're playing a game or they're
watching a video they want to get to the
end they don't want to play for five
minutes they want to play till it's over
now of course with a video it's a little
bit easier because there is an end point
and if you can get in there before the
next video comes up which is you know we
could discuss about that problem right
they've intentionally created these
programs where they immediately see
another one well if we can say we're
going to stop at the end and we stop it
that's a lot easier for a kid than
saying well you have you you have 20
minutes and then that's it and then
you've got a 23 minute video and like
who likes that
um the the challenge comes with games
which some of which are designed to
never end you know you get to the to one
level and then you want to get to the
next level and I remember when my kids
were little they'd say but I'll lose my
points if I stop in the middle right so
we can help them find a stopping point
rather than just giving them a number of
minutes because then they really are
stopping you know right in the middle of
the level or whatever you know um but
the other thing that could also help
especially for younger children is to
let them know what's going to come next
because if you think about the
experience of a child on an iPad doing
something really stimulating and
interesting when they turn it off now
you've got a black screen now you've got
a a world that's just immobile and plain
and boring right and they're like I want
to go back on the iPad that was
interesting so if we say hey it's time
to go go outside and blow bubbles and
see if you can pop them with your nose
right or something something for them to
you know know like look forward to to
know what's coming next that's a lot
easier because the
transition from playing on the screen to
be coming back into you know real life
as we say that can be a tough one we can
help them with that transition so they
have something to look forward to it's
not just a stopping of something fun but
it's a moving on to something else
that's fun beautiful yeah I think with
my kids they want it's like oh I just
need to I don't know Minecraft I need to
get the sheep or I need to build this
and it's like okay well it's because I
know if I let them play all day they
would um but giving them us a little bit
of autonomy like you said picking an
endpoint I also have my kids set timers
and I know that's still time but they
like that where they set it and then
there's it teaches them a little bit of
accountability like you set the timer it
goes off and yeah like it might take a
minute or two to finish something up but
they essentially they know that this is
this is their time um so essentially
what you're doing is you're saying when
the timer goes off you have to find a
stopping point and it sounds like
they're able to do that without within a
minute or two well after some training
it didn't work right it didn't but also
what you're doing is something more
profound I think which is you're putting
the child in charge and you're teaching
them an important skill which is how do
you man manage this like frankly
addictive you know technology how how
you know without an adult hanging over
you and saying you have to stop now you
know how do you how do you regulate
yourself how do you take responsibility
for it and when they're setting their
own timer and keeping an eye on it and
you know then maybe going a few minutes
over to finish their level they're in
charge and that's so much them telling
themselves what to do is so much better
than us telling them what to do on on
two levels one is it's you know now it's
not a fight for us and the other is
you're really teaching
them how to behave in the world because
we adults have to Grapple with the same
problem I think what the and I know you
talk about this in in your books is
giving kids autonomy and giving them a
chance to express their feelings as big
and when kids understand our reasoning
because when we're thinking about like
the technology fight when I was able
like I literally have pictures of brain
scans of like what radiation looks like
when kids are on a screen so my kids
know I was able to get those from um
from a doctor a matter a number of years
ago and my kids understand why technolog
is addictive they understand what
cortisol is it's a stress hormone that
we get lots of it when we're on a screen
they understand what dopamine is so for
my kids it's just like sugar they
understand that the little bugs in their
stomach and their microbiome in their
stomach if they eat too much sugar it
makes those like little bugs really
unhappy and then their brains aren't
healthy so I spend time and I really
recommend this to parents as a child
psychologist is explain to kids why you
have these rules and not be something
completely mundane that kids can't
relate to it's like for sugar it's like
you want your body healthy this is what
happens in your gut and this is why we
don't put too much sugar in it because
then your brain's not healthy like my
kids even at six can understand that and
the same with the tech they understand
like we know this shrinks the brain it
it decreases the mass in your brain it
creates stress hormones it's addictive
it's similar to why adults get addicted
to cigarettes like we talk about that
and I have found as a parent that is
profoundly effective when you can give
kids reasons for your rules that they
can be like and we we talk about it and
it's it's like because I want to protect
your brain buddy like this is not trying
to be the mean mom I want you to have a
healthy brain and and you're giving them
the information you're not just giving
them reasons you're giving them
information you're giving them the power
to understand it for themselves yeah
yeah and I think that's important is
your books talk about just it's not just
how to order your kids around that's not
what you're implying you're talking
about how to have conversations with our
kids and getting them involved in
disputes going on um and I know when we
talk like in your book how to talk so
little kids will listen you have these
like five concrete steps for um for when
there's disputes and we were talking
earlier about like when my son and
daughter get into an argument and I was
thinking like how I would Implement some
of these um you do you have these five
steps so why don't we like really
quickly like in five minutes go through
this particular one because I think it
wraps into the how we talk to kids and
how to walk them through conflict um I
better look at the steps yeah I've got
the book here
too um so we'll say we and we'll walk so
just so I'll do a quick summary for all
our listeners the steps are express your
feelings strongly show your child how to
make amends offer a choice take action
without insult and then you can move on
to problem solving and there's five
steps to your problem solving as well so
I don't know if these are steps so much
as like tools so there's five tools and
there's five steps to your last tool
which is problem solving um so an
example of like my son and daughter uh
maybe they were playing Lego and my son
because he is a bulldozer like knocks
over my daughter's Lego Tower and now
she is all upset because she works so
hard on it and there's big tears and she
yells at him you're the worst brother in
the world I hate you we have literally
had this conversation in our house so
let's let's go with that so when we look
at page 132 of your book and we look at
some of these tools why don't you walk
through a couple of these or all of them
if we have the time we'll try to keep it
under five minutes um how you would talk
to how I should maybe talk to my kids
when that would happen big fight worst
brother in the world Lego tower is
destroyed oh and and how is and how is
your son responding to being called the
worst is he upset or is yeah he loves
his sister and he didn't you know like
he would just be like she's mad at me
and you know he would be he would not
yeah he would feel really bad like he
would not know yeah what to do he would
probably be
like he's not the kid who's going to hit
like he's not going to be aggressive
that way way I mean I I think I would
want to start by
um reframing your daughter's insults
towards your son as as her strong
feelings and I think those are the
biggest feelings going on so you're
going to start with that and and I'll
make up a name you know I like Rachel
Rachel is really upset she worked for a
half an hour building this Tower and
youed so many
tiny little bricks and put them together
in careful ways and with one swipe it's
all over the floor that was a lot of
work that's so
frustrating so now you're speaking for
her and she's going to appreciate that
and then your son gets to hear how she
feels without the insults you know
you're the worst brother
ever yeah and not and not without you're
not shaming him you're just saying this
happened this happened you're describing
the scene and you're also validating her
and and your daughter might chime in and
she might say yeah and I you know and it
wasn't easy to get this and this
together and I was trying to make a that
and and you can just keep acknowledging
that oh so you were trying to make that
and you were putting this together and
that was not easy
easy
um and then you can say you know and Leo
you know wanted to touch it because it
was a beautiful building and it he you
know didn't mean for it to fall apart
that was not in his
plan and he can and then maybe your son
will say you know what would he say he'd
say yeah I just wanted to see what it
felt like I didn't know it was gonna
fall over I just wanted to fly the
spaceship that's why I threw it yeah or
it was it was an accident and yeah he
would yeah he's a little guy who
wouldn't knock it over on purpose but
and so so here now instead of instead of
you know have in you're you're basically
modeling for them how they can talk
about their feelings to each other
without attacking each other with fists
or with words so that would be the first
step and then boy Leo's feeling bad and
Rachel's feeling I'm making up names
here angry so how can we you know is
there any way to fix it you know Leo can
you find the little pieces where did
this go
um instead of thinking about punishing
the child who did wrong we always want
to think
about how can we help this child fix
what he did wrong that's the making am
men's step that's the making a men's
part so instead of feeling bad about
himself or
resentful he can start to feel good
about himself and reconnect right so
would you say when you're using this
strategy would you leave it up to them
to come up with a few ideas or would you
coach them through and give them the
choices does that make sense like
where yeah I think it depends on whether
you know whether they have the you know
the capacity to come up with an idea
some little kids need some ideas of you
know I think I think what would help
right now is see if you can bring all
those blocks to all those Lego pieces
together so she can you know and ask her
if she she wants you to help her rebuild
it you know if what if he what if she
had gotten knocked over and she got hurt
you might say I think you know do what
do you think will help do you think she
she would like a Band-Aid would it help
to get her a glass of water my kids
always got ice when somebody got hurt um
so I think it very much depends on
whether they have the ability to come up
with an idea or not if they can in that
moment think of something sometimes when
kids are you know especially when kids
do something that they didn't really
anticipate it was going to cause the
disruption or the pain that it is
they're sort of Frozen in Time like I
don't know what to do I didn't mean to
do that I don't know what to do and if
you say I think I think she would really
like to have a piece of ice they're like
oh okay ice I'll go get it I'm like K
get my favorite thing to do is because
I'll say I can see it was an accident
but your sister's really hurt um is to
say how are you going to make this right
because she's really hurt right now and
I I love that strategy isn't and
sometimes they don't know and they and
then they you could just see them
they're like I don't know what to do
like would you like some ideas of how
maybe we could make this right and and
what I love is you guys are big on
choices in your book so it's giving that
autonomy back to them and having them
take ownership over the conflict instead
of just like apologize to your sister
right now like blah blah blah how dare
you do that you know um which just shuts
kids down and kids don't like forced
apologies like that like it's it's not
the research would say that's not super
effective it's not satisfying to the
person you're apologizing to either to
hear a forced apology right that can
that can be irritating so it's not
really helping anybody but if if we can
find something as you said what can we
do to make this right what can we do to
make it better if you can find something
that will actually make it better that's
that's a great first step to making
amends and we notice from talking to a
lot of families and in our own families
that not only sometimes will kids freeze
up but sometimes they'll run away or
even laugh and you know which which you
know makes tends to make parents and the
injured sibling even more angry because
like wow you really don't care but
they'll be doing that out of nervousness
and fear that everyone's angry at me and
when you give them something to do to
make it right and to help you'll you'll
see a very different side of your
child yeah these conflicts this conflict
resolution U with with my kids anyway
often takes time like it's cuz one does
often runs away and they're in the room
crying and they won't let their sibling
in so we can't even do a repair right
away we have to let the dust settle a
little bit and then we do you know I'm
with say in this case it would be my son
and I would say you know her feelings
really hurt she's in her room crying I
wonder how we can make this right and
then he'll because we've Co done enough
coaching he has like a menu of things he
can do to make this right his favorite
is to write an apology note to her and
slide it under her door and again lots
of coaching over the years of what we
can do like when we hurt someone's
feelings or you know they do something
that we don't mean to do and that always
is better than on the moment being like
say sorry like it's it feels inauthentic
and it's not received well like because
it's course that's like coursing a child
to say that and it's not that we don't
encourage in our home apologies but it
should be meaningful and until you
really teach kids how their actions have
impacted the other one and sometimes I
would add to that would be can you think
of a time you felt that way like you
worked really hard on something and
someone it got wrecked how did that feel
oh I felt really sad and then when you
can put them somewhat proverbially in
the other child's shoes then that can
help as well can you think of a time and
I would just add that if you find that
your child isn't ready to do that if
your child isn't ready to say I think
this is how she felt when that happened
it's often because in this case your son
needs some time to process how he feels
and needs you to get how he feels first
you know and if he feels like that
wasn't fair I didn't mean to do that
that was an accident and then I got
yelled at and now I feel bad about
myself or shame or whatever it
is that feel it can be helpful to start
there you didn't want that to happen you
were just trying to see how it worked
you didn't know it was going to fall
apart when you threw it you know
anything like that so that he feels
understood first and then it'll be
easier for him to see it yeah and in
this case both kids would have been hurt
because he she said some hurtful things
to him like you're the worst brother in
the world I hate you she's feeling like
her space wasn't respected and her
things are damaged and so we've got two
kids who are hurt now so there's you
know a little bit of dance you've got to
do with both kids is and that's usually
the case with sibling conflict I find
there's two kids usually and there's a
dance that happens everybody everybody's
hurting and if we want our kids to put
themselves in the other person's shoes
the first thing we have to do is put
ourselves in their shoes because that
models it for them and allows them to do
that otherwise they'll be stuck in their
you know in their own distress and when
you're stuck in your own distress it's
virtually impossible to take the other
person's perspective yeah you can't be
empathic in that moment just because
we're we're so
disregulated so we're at the end of our
podcast I just wanted to to make sure um
people know your work I have you're
going to have to the I'll have your one
book with me not the other so their
books are the first again hope I get it
right the first was how to talk so
little kids will listen what age would
you say this is the best for what it's
for ages two to s in fact our subtitle
is a survival guide to children ages two
to seven I my glasses
on yeah so our second book is how to
talk so sorry how to talk when kids
won't listen and the subtitle of that
book is whining fighting meltdowns
Defiance and other challenges of
childhood and that one covers a wider
age range it goes from preschool all the
way through you know early teens awesome
and like I said anybody listening their
work is really concrete they have these
cool illustrations with like cartoony
things and you can think I don't know to
me it's like actionable steps which I
always so appreciate because when you're
in the middle of parenting and you're
all stressed out like you're like I
don't want to read 20 pages to get to
one strategy you're like I need a tool
right now to use so thank you for
writing a book that is so practical for
parents yes thank book let me also
mention for people who want to get want
the summary the real summary version if
you've read our books and you still want
to be able to carry the tools around we
have an app that you can put on your
phone it's called how to talk parenting
tips in your pocket and it's available
for both IOS and Android and you can
take a look at it for free I think it's
like $3.99 to buy it um but it it takes
all of the tools and it asks you some
questions to quickly get you to the
relevant tools that will be helpful very
cool like are your kids fighting is your
kid crying and then you you click on
that and it's sort of a 20 questions and
then it will pop up with with what tool
you can use all right I'm downloading
that that sounds amazing we'll put that
as a resource on our website uh thank
you ladies so much um just we're really
excited because Julie I believe is
speaking at our conference uh April 21st
to 22nd so you'll go more in depth like
than our time today which is only about
third well I guess we've gone 40 minutes
now Tanya is gonna be like 30 minutes
and I never can keep it to 30 minutes
just way too long
when so we'll get to hear more Julie
from you then on are we talk are you
talking about which Booker are you going
to be talking speaking well I'm gon I'm
going to be talking about the whole
concept how to talk so kids will listen
so I'm going to cover slightly wider age
range but it's going to be the same
tools but we'll yeah we'll go into depth
and I'll do some practice exercises with
people beautiful I love that okay ladies
thank you again so much for today um it
was just just wonderful you guys have
got a great sense of humor thank you for
dissecting my children for me I hope
that it's always you doesn't matter you
know I've been working with kids for
over a decade in therapy and it's
different when it's your kids and kids
are melting down they're fighting and
you're I'm in the middle of planning a
wedding and I'm stressed out and these
things happen and even the most
conscientious self-aware parents are
going to screw up and I always want to
give lots of space for that that no one
does this perfectly absolutely we're all
growing Dr Gat Ed my mother's Mentor Dr
G Gat used to say we aim for 70%
sometimes 50% % is all we can manage and
even 10% can make a real difference in a
relationship so you know you're not
expected to be
perfect beautiful all right so I well I
hope everyone gets a chance to look at
their app and their two books and again
ladies thank you so much for joining me
today thank you for having
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