0:05 Hey everyone, we are having a great
0:07 conversation today about wowing your
0:11 early adopters. Um, and I got to say,
0:13 first impressions are a big deal. The
0:16 last thing you want is to ship a really
0:17 amazing product out the door and have
0:20 everybody just kind of yawn uh or just
0:22 actually try to interact with your
0:24 product or your team and get frustrated.
0:26 those first impressions can last a
0:28 really long time and then it's super
0:30 hard to uh recover your reputation uh as
0:34 a new product. Uh you might lose those
0:36 folks for forever. So that's our subject
0:39 today on WP product talk. This is WP
0:44 product talk place where every week we
0:47 bring you insights product marketing,
0:49 business management and growth, customer
0:52 experience, product development and
0:54 more. It's your go-to podcast for
0:58 WordPress product owners by WordPress
1:00 product owners. And now enjoy the
1:07 show. Hey everyone, I'm Matt Cromwell,
1:09 co-founder of GiveWP and now at
1:13 StellarWP. And I'm Katie Keith, founder
1:15 and CEO at Barn 2 Plugins. And today we
1:19 are talking about wowing your early
1:21 adopters with excellent customer
1:22 experience. This is our 10th episode of
1:25 a six season of WP product talk. I can't
1:29 believe it's been six seasons already.
1:30 It's crazy. Wow. Yeah. Um and we're
1:33 going through each stage of building a
1:35 WordPress product step by step. Last
1:37 week we talked a bit about how to build
1:39 a website that drives conversions. And
1:42 now we need to support those new early
1:45 customers.
1:48 Yeah. And that's why we have invited
1:50 Robbie Adair to be our guest today. Hey
1:53 Robbie, thanks for coming. Thank you for
1:55 having me on the show. I really
1:56 appreciate it. Awesome. Can you tell the
1:59 world a little bit about yourself? Sure.
2:02 Um, so I have uh I've had a media agency
2:05 for oh almost 23 years now. And uh I
2:08 also own OS training which is where I'm
2:10 primarily as most active and involved
2:12 with the WordPress community. Um and so
2:15 we do training to teach people how to do
2:17 web development themselves. um how to
2:20 use certain tools as well. And um yeah,
2:23 and then with the crossover between the
2:26 agency and OS training is we do a lot of
2:28 white label training and marketing
2:30 materials for people. So we help them
2:32 with getting their products ready to go
2:34 out to market and to try and get a big
2:36 wow out there when they do that. That's
2:39 awesome. I'd like to hear just a little
2:41 bit more about that. So what is the
2:43 actual way that your customers interact
2:46 with your support team? team. I guess I
2:49 would say I don't know what you call
2:51 them, but
2:53 my support team. I like that. Well, we
2:54 just actually my agency is named media a
2:56 team. So, that's really funny that you
2:58 should mention that. We just call
2:59 ourselves a team. Uh, and we kind of
3:01 work through both of the companies
3:02 together as well. Um, so like I said, we
3:05 do um some white label training with OS
3:07 training and then we do media production
3:10 with the agency. So, we support each
3:12 other with those things. Um, with
3:14 clients from both sides from either they
3:17 want us to do some training or maybe
3:19 they're coming through our agency and
3:20 they want us to help us with some of
3:21 their marketing materials. Um, a lot of
3:23 times when we have customers who have
3:25 new products that they're going to be
3:27 putting out, then we one help them
3:29 prepare to have training in place for
3:31 day one or even maybe even before day
3:34 one. I forgot I have my apple. Uh, so
3:36 I'm gonna get all kinds of little uh
3:38 symbols popping up. Sorry.
3:41 Um but uh so so we can help them get
3:45 their training all together so it's
3:46 there and in place so that whenever the
3:48 product goes out and clients first start
3:50 interacting with it they have a resource
3:52 to go to and learn how to do it. The
3:54 other thing we like to do is not just do
3:57 like you could do help documentation but
3:59 real training should actually take them
4:01 through utilizing the product. You do
4:03 want to do that basic, you know, this is
4:04 where you find these type of tools and
4:06 this is where you're going to find these
4:07 type of tools and settings, but then you
4:09 really need to show someone how to use
4:12 the product by building something like
4:14 walking them through using the product
4:16 in the real sense of how they're going
4:18 to do it. Practical application will
4:20 teach people better than anything. Um,
4:22 and so we we always like to try to have
4:25 something where we walk them all the way
4:26 through it. The other thing that I think
4:28 is key, especially when you're talking
4:30 about products, is even before you dig
4:33 into your training there, what you want
4:35 to do is you want to show them what
4:37 they're going to accomplish in that
4:39 training. So, showing them what's
4:40 possible right up front, especially when
4:42 you're talking about a new product, an
4:44 innovative product, they might not even
4:47 know how to use it, right? Or all the
4:49 applications it could be used for. So,
4:50 if you're showing demonstrations of,
4:52 hey, this is how we're going to build,
4:54 we're going to build this with our
4:55 product or we're going to do this with
4:57 our product in this training and you
4:59 show them upfront what they're going to
5:00 do. They have a visualization of the end
5:03 where they're going with it, right? As
5:04 well as it may give them other ideas of
5:06 how they can use that product that
5:08 better suits themselves, but they'll
5:10 still get benefit of the training
5:11 because they know what you're going to
5:12 show them and they know if they have to
5:14 make any modifications in their mind to
5:16 do exactly what they're wanting to do.
5:19 And and then on the marketing side, a
5:21 lot of times we're helping those same
5:23 demonstrations that you're going to
5:24 start your training out with are perfect
5:26 marketing materials to put out there to,
5:29 you know, get the hype going even before
5:31 you release, showing what this tool can
5:33 do. I mean, this is why we do alphas and
5:34 betas and things like that, right? We're
5:36 we're doing that so that we can create
5:38 those hype tools going like, "Look at
5:40 this demonstration. Look how we did
5:42 this. Look at what you can do." And then
5:44 you then they they're excited about the
5:46 product and they have an idea of what
5:48 they're going to do with that product.
5:50 That's I think that is the biggest
5:51 thing. Whether you're doing the
5:52 demonstration, you're doing the
5:53 training, they have to know how they can
5:55 use this product and apply it to their
5:58 um own individual case. But to do that,
6:00 that means you as a product builder, you
6:03 need to make sure that you're showing as
6:05 many types of cases as you can imagine
6:07 too with those demonstrations, right? So
6:09 you're putting hype out there, showing
6:10 them all different ways. And I will say
6:12 that that could should continue even
6:15 after your product is released
6:16 especially in that first let's say six
6:18 months you need to be listening what are
6:21 the help questions coming in what what
6:23 are you to support on that that's going
6:24 to give you the ideas of all the next
6:26 demonstrations you're going to do so you
6:28 need to keep doing that and building on
6:29 that that portfolio of examples. Yeah
6:33 absolutely I have a feeling we're
6:35 actually going to cover some of the
6:37 stuff that we'll talk about next week.
6:38 Next week we're actually going to talk a
6:39 little bit about customer feedback. Um
6:42 uh and so I'm sure we'll talk a little
6:43 bit about that today as well. But that's
6:45 that's great. I love that. That sounds
6:46 really great. Um I'd love to talk a
6:50 little bit about this subject in
6:52 particular and why it's so important for
6:55 WordPress product owners uh and
6:57 WordPress product businesses. Um Katie,
7:00 I'd love to hear your take um when
7:01 you're thinking about early adopters of
7:04 new products and things like that.
7:05 What's your why why is it so important
7:07 to focus on the customer experience
7:09 side?
7:11 uh because people will stop using your
7:13 product if you get it wrong and it's a
7:15 particular challenge because you just
7:17 mentioned customer feedback. We don't
7:19 necessarily have that yet because we
7:21 don't have any real customers at this
7:23 stage. So in some ways we might feel
7:26 like we're working a bit blind. So we
7:28 need to think about what information can
7:31 we gather. Um well I'm sure we'll talk
7:33 about this more in a minute but examples
7:35 would be things like beta testing and
7:37 using ex other experience within other
7:40 products and so on. So what information
7:43 can we bring together so that we're not
7:44 acting blind in crafting a suitable user
7:47 experience before we have a huge number
7:50 of users to give us that feedback. 100%.
7:54 Yeah. And and to to kind of uh go along
7:57 with what Katie is talking about there.
7:59 You're right. When you first start out,
8:01 especially if you haven't uh released
8:03 anything yet, it's like where where do I
8:05 even start? You know, you've got this
8:06 brilliant product and you know what it's
8:08 going to do, but you need to make sure
8:10 that it is going to fit the needs of
8:11 others. It is going to be understandable
8:14 uh by others. And so focus groups during
8:17 that time period are very important. And
8:20 I mean when I'm talking focus groups, it
8:22 literally could be I mean you could just
8:23 be literally a teenager in your bedroom
8:25 building a product, right? and your mom
8:28 may be your focus group or your best
8:30 friend may be your focus group. It
8:31 doesn't have to be a very formal kind of
8:33 focus group if you don't want that or
8:35 you don't have the time or the the the
8:38 resources to do that. But you do need to
8:40 get together a focus group. Now for
8:42 someone like say like Katie who has lots
8:43 of products already when they're going
8:45 to introduce a new product out there
8:46 she's got builtin people that she can
8:48 tap into customers for focus groups. And
8:51 what you have to do for those focus
8:53 groups, what I always tell people is
8:54 make sure you uh know their levels so
8:57 that you know what you're building
8:59 towards. And when I say their levels,
9:01 you may need multiple focus groups,
9:02 right? Because you may have a tool that
9:04 could be used by by noviceses all the
9:08 way up to experts. A lot of the tools do
9:10 that, right? We have tools that are you
9:12 could just kind of click a couple of
9:13 things and do it and you're like, "Oh,
9:15 I've got this tool and I'm using it." Or
9:17 you could say, I'm an expert level and
9:19 I've got all these fancy advanced
9:21 settings on my uh product and my tool.
9:24 And so you need to make sure when you've
9:26 got those focus groups that you know,
9:27 okay, this this is my kind of beginner
9:30 level focus group. And they they need I
9:32 need to make sure that as a beginner
9:34 level type person, a novice, they can
9:36 come in and use this tool. And then I
9:38 would put together I would I would
9:40 separate my advanced users out because I
9:42 would want to see do the advanced users
9:44 just hop in and know how to do
9:46 everything in it immediately or do they
9:49 also need some sort of even intro level
9:51 to because maybe you've got settings in
9:53 a in a unique place. I mean we do have
9:56 some UI rules that we try to follow,
9:57 right? Particularly in whatever industry
9:59 you're in WordPress, you want things to
10:01 look WordPressy as it were. Um, and so
10:04 people then kind of have a natural
10:05 feeling for where to go to find certain
10:07 settings. Um, but if you have some
10:09 things that are in different places, and
10:10 I always, uh, relate to, um, if anyone
10:13 has ever tried to like open OBS, you
10:16 know, like maybe you're you're a user
10:18 and you know your like Microsoft
10:20 products or you know your Adobe products
10:22 and you kind of have a sense of where
10:23 things are in those products. When you
10:25 open a new one from Word to Excel,
10:27 there's there's familiarity, right? But
10:29 then if someone opens up OBS for the
10:31 first time, they're just like I don't
10:33 know where anything, you know. Yeah,
10:35 exactly. It's a different animal.
10:36 They've put things in different areas.
10:38 Settings are in different places. And
10:40 so, even for advanced users, they may
10:42 need that little intro of, hey, let me
10:45 give you the overview of where things
10:46 are. For sure. Yeah. I think that
10:49 familiarity is particularly important
10:51 with WordPress products because we are
10:53 building for a platform that does have
10:56 its own UI. So that can give us amazing
10:59 inspiration into how to design the UI
11:01 for our WordPress products in a way
11:03 which is familiar to the user. So even
11:06 though we haven't got quite so many
11:07 people even with focus groups and so on
11:10 to tell us how it should work, uh we can
11:12 use WordPress and anything else that's
11:15 it's built on like Woo Commerce or
11:17 something as inspiration. And I also
11:20 love what you said about making a
11:22 distinction between the beginner and the
11:23 advanced users because you need to think
11:26 about it from the perspective of each of
11:28 those, don't you? And try to imagine you
11:31 are those users or look over your um
11:34 mom's shoulder or something while she's
11:36 trying to use the product to really
11:38 think that's not what I intended, but
11:40 actually that is what that user group
11:41 needs and adapt. Interesting. But I
11:44 think let's move on to story time
11:47 because I think talking about all this
11:49 is really relevant to something you've
11:51 been working on, isn't it Matt? For
11:53 sure. Right now, uh, we are in the midst
11:56 of launching, uh, a new product at
11:58 StellarWP called Stellar Sites. Uh, it's
12:01 been in the works for a really long
12:02 time. And um that's been my focus is how
12:06 to help the onboarding and the first
12:09 experience of the customers um when they
12:12 when they come into this new product for
12:14 the first time. Hopefully that they get
12:16 to actually enjoy uh working with the
12:19 product that they know where to go to
12:21 ask questions to get answers um that
12:23 they can interact with our team quickly
12:25 and easily that they can get answers
12:27 fast. Um that they can just move on and
12:30 start doing the work that they need to
12:31 do. All of those things are things that
12:34 uh me and my team have been focused on
12:36 for the last like six months I would
12:38 say. Um so we're really excited to get
12:40 this out the door soon. Um that's why
12:42 this topic today is so important to me.
12:44 Like we're in the life cycle of of just
12:46 like the way that we structured this
12:47 whole show. We like like I said last
12:50 week we talked about uh making your
12:52 website convert. It's like, and that's
12:54 another thing that we've been focusing
12:56 on too is now now we're going to be
12:58 stellarwp.com has always been kind of
13:01 like a umbrella or corporate um uh
13:04 website. Now it's going to actually be a
13:06 go to market website. And so we've been
13:08 doing a lot of things to change that
13:09 website and that's going to be released
13:11 like today, tomorrow, the next couple
13:13 days actually. Um and um and it's gonna
13:17 it's going to be where people are able
13:19 to purchase stellar sites. Um, so what
13:22 is that? Is it a hosted website service?
13:25 Is it a tool for building a website?
13:28 Yeah. Yeah. So it in some way I'm trying
13:30 to navigate between like everyone knows
13:33 about like the WP engines, the Kinstas,
13:36 the, you know, all of the big managed
13:38 WordPress folks and they're kind of
13:40 like, you know, we'll do all your
13:41 managed WordPress stuff. Um, and then
13:44 you have the things that are like we're
13:46 an AI builder. You you use AI and you
13:49 can build a little website. Um, and
13:51 we're trying to go not to either one of
13:54 those two sides. We're trying to be
13:56 like, if you want to build a nonprofit
13:58 website with WordPress, we're your go-to
14:01 for it. If you want to build a learning
14:03 management site with WordPress, we we
14:06 are your go-to for it. If you want to
14:07 build a store with WordPress, you're we
14:10 are your go-to for that. If you want to
14:12 build an event-based u event tickets
14:14 oriented website, um, we're your go-to
14:17 for that. So, we're trying to really
14:19 niche uh into the types of verticals um
14:23 that people typically build WordPress
14:25 websites for. Uh specifically, of
14:27 course, oriented around our Stellar WP
14:29 products. Um so, it's the it's the best
14:32 way to experience our products
14:34 firsthand. It's the best way to get a
14:37 really good foundation. Every single
14:38 stellar sites customer immediately has
14:41 um the solid WP suite um as a foundation
14:45 and the the cadence uh and cadence
14:47 blocks uh suite as well uh for building
14:50 out the website. Um and then
14:52 additionally if you choose you can do
14:55 like the fundraising plan and then that
14:57 will have solid and cadence and then
14:59 give WP as well or if you want to do
15:01 learning management solid cadence and
15:04 learn dash etc etc. Um, yeah. So, it's
15:08 been really exciting, really fun, and
15:10 um, we're uh, we're getting to the
15:12 finish line finally. Um, and I'm all I'm
15:15 thinking about right now is those how
15:17 are those early adopters going to feel
15:19 about this and how are they going to
15:21 experience the product and things like
15:23 that. I'll I'll tell you just one quick
15:26 little story. So, you know, in the
15:28 hosting world, um, you know, when you go
15:31 and you want to point your domain to
15:35 your website, um, it's all extremely
15:38 tech speak. It's all DNS stuff. It's all
15:40 like here's your name server or here's
15:42 your CNAME or here's your A record or
15:44 here's your alias and nobody knows
15:47 what's what or what, you know, the
15:49 difference between any of those things.
15:50 They're just like, tell me what to do
15:52 and I will do it um, if I can. Um, so
15:57 because I felt like our customers are
15:58 not necessarily going to be super um,
16:01 advanced on this level, I created um,
16:04 our whole admin area is actually a
16:06 WordPress website actually. Um, and so I
16:08 used a gravity form to do a conditional
16:11 walkth through of like if you if your
16:13 domain uh, is with Cloudflare, then
16:16 you're going to do this. If your domain
16:17 is not with Cloudflare, you're going to
16:19 do this. If you're using a subdomain,
16:21 you're going to do this. Um, so I love
16:23 the the conditional field aspects. And
16:25 then they submit that form finally once
16:27 they go through the whole kind of like
16:29 onboarding wizard, domain wizard. Um and
16:32 then it actually configures their domain
16:34 correctly. Um and just that that um
16:38 attention to the experience for me
16:40 personally I think it will um land
16:44 really really well with customers
16:45 hopefully ideally that's the that's the
16:47 hope. So, well, you gave a lot of case
16:50 scenarios there, which will all make
16:52 great uh video demonstrations of how
16:55 you're going to use it if you're
16:56 nonprofit and and actually walking
16:58 people through and showing them again an
17:00 end result that then they can, you know,
17:02 follow the whole training and learn how
17:03 to do. The other thing I want to mention
17:05 is with those um particularly in uh like
17:08 the WordPress world, there are a lot of
17:10 influencers out there too. So once you
17:12 start having those those hype videos, um
17:16 I would start reaching out to
17:17 influencers even before product launch.
17:19 Let those influencers, you know, play
17:21 that product demo. Let them play around
17:23 with the tool and show their users as
17:26 well because influencers are are a great
17:28 way now to spread the word about your
17:30 product. Um and they are doing some of
17:33 the work for you, right? they're they're
17:35 training people out there for you and
17:37 you're reaching bigger audiences that
17:38 you might not have had in your your your
17:41 marketing audience that you have
17:42 yourself. And so I think that's very
17:44 important. The other thing, Matt, that
17:45 you mentioned that I also would like
17:47 like to point out because I know it's
17:48 not always doable for a lot of products,
17:51 particularly if they're small startups,
17:52 but having wizards in your products also
17:55 make a huge huge difference. People need
17:58 that. They need that. They need the
17:59 handholding as it were. Even advanced
18:02 users find that they set up faster with
18:04 those kind of things. So yeah, they're
18:06 like, "I know what I'm doing. Leave me
18:08 alone." Or sometimes they're like, "I
18:09 know what I'm doing. Oh, and this made
18:10 me do it quicker." Like if you can get
18:12 both, if you can actually make it so
18:14 that it's not too handholdy that they
18:17 feel like they're like like you're
18:19 making them go too slow, you know? Um
18:22 and then it's handholdy enough for those
18:23 who really do need the help. Um that's
18:25 like a great medium in between. Uh but
18:28 it's it's hard it's hard to get that
18:29 exactly right. So it is yeah I've I've
18:32 gone through through a lot of different
18:33 things where I feel like oh like so many
18:36 of our folks are you know beginning
18:38 users I want to cater to them and I do
18:40 that and then I get all this feedback
18:41 from you know mid to advanced folks who
18:44 are like this is so terrible like why do
18:45 you make me do all these blah blah blah
18:47 and it's like h I didn't do it for
18:50 you but how do I have my cake and eat it
18:53 too? I'm not totally sure. So um yeah
18:56 that's a good one. Um Katie, what about
18:58 you? story time. What's your personal
19:00 experience with uh wowing some early
19:02 adopters?
19:04 So, I'm also currently going through
19:06 this um apologies for using a
19:09 non-WordPress example, but it is
19:11 relevant to WordPress. So, since we're
19:14 branching out into Shopify apps, it's
19:16 been really interesting experience
19:18 because I am not experienced. I know.
19:20 But I know I know Shopify. I know my way
19:23 around Woo Commerce. Um with my eyes
19:25 closed, I do not know Shopify. I've
19:28 played around with it, but I'm not
19:29 experienced. So, that's made it a really
19:32 interesting experience designing the UI
19:34 for a Shopify app because I can approach
19:36 it like a new user. But, it's also led
19:39 me to identify some pain points that I
19:42 believe the other apps have not tackled,
19:45 which hopefully will allow ours to be
19:47 better. And one major one is how you
19:51 basically activate things in the theme.
19:53 So, if you want to output something on
19:55 the product page in Shopify, apparently
19:58 you need to enable some kind of widget
20:00 within the theme and there's no way to
20:02 inject it automatically. So, that
20:04 creates a friction point for the user.
20:07 And I've tested other apps and I'm just
20:09 not happy with how they do it. They
20:11 might link the user um on install or
20:14 something and say, "Warning, you need to
20:16 activate this in your theme." and then
20:18 it links you to something which
20:19 basically looks like WordPress
20:21 customizer and you have to click save
20:23 and it's just not a nice experience. So
20:26 coming into that new I'm trying to think
20:29 creatively about what are the
20:30 alternatives to this even if yes people
20:33 have to go to that page how can we
20:35 signpost them in a more intuitive way
20:38 how should that fit into the process of
20:41 setting up the app like maybe it
20:44 shouldn't be the first thing you do
20:45 after you activate it maybe you should
20:47 actually start setting things up first
20:49 um in the back end so you feel you've
20:51 done something rather than get to this
20:53 huge friction point immediately which
20:55 might just make them give up and
20:56 uninstall it. So, it's been interesting
20:59 to think about what are the potential
21:02 friction points which with something
21:04 like WordPress or Shopify, we do not
21:06 have full control over the platform. So,
21:09 there may well be compromises that
21:10 affect the
21:12 usability. So, I think it's really
21:14 important to think about that from the
21:15 users perspective. And if you can't make
21:18 it perfect because it's not your
21:19 platform, what can you do to make that
21:21 easier for people? Yeah, 100%. That's
21:25 fascinating. I mean, that this type of
21:27 thing, this question definitely applies
21:29 to any product uh out there um
21:32 regardless of whether we like those
21:34 products or not.
21:36 Um but that that's a really good
21:38 example. Um yeah, I was going to say I I
21:41 also um have an example that's not
21:44 necessarily WordPress, but for one of
21:46 our clients, I mean, they have they're
21:48 almost a hundred-year-old company. They
21:50 have a product that's well established.
21:52 are one of the leaders in their
21:53 industry, but they have in the last
21:55 couple of years been releasing a new
21:57 product and it's kind of a it's still
22:00 related to their industry, but it is a
22:02 totally different market for them in
22:04 that industry. Um, and one of the things
22:06 that we found was that we had started
22:09 with them um, uh, a couple of years ago
22:12 establishing a video podcast where they
22:14 could start putting out information and
22:17 they were putting putting out
22:18 information to their particular audience
22:20 that they already had, but then as we've
22:22 gone along, a lot of what we did there
22:25 relates to what the new product is going
22:27 to do. And so it's kind of starting to
22:29 cross over and it's giving them some
22:31 materials that they can like weave into
22:33 this new marketing for them. So also
22:35 think of that again for someone like
22:37 Katie or someone like a stellar WP, you
22:39 already have products, you already have
22:40 mark, you know, audiences to talk to.
22:42 They may not be your exact goal
22:45 audience, but they may lead you to your
22:47 audience as well. So 100%. Uh, another
22:51 thing I want to lean into here a little
22:53 bit on the on this uh subject um is the
22:57 idea that essentially the product should
23:00 explain itself. That's one thing I've
23:02 been trying to talk with a lot of
23:04 product owners about more and more.
23:06 There's a tendency, especially in the
23:07 WordPress space, to um I feel like get a
23:11 little bit lazy on the product side and
23:14 explain everything in online
23:15 documentation. Um and I feel like that's
23:19 not a great user experience. For one,
23:21 there's so many users who just they're
23:23 never going to read your docs. They just
23:25 don't want to do it. They don't want to
23:26 spend the time. Um, and so instead of
23:29 going and doing that work, they're just
23:31 gonna gripe to you in a support ticket.
23:33 Uh, because they're trying to use your
23:35 product and it doesn't make sense to
23:37 them. Um, so more and more I'm just
23:39 like, how can you think about a way to
23:41 make the product make sense without
23:44 online documentation, without reaching
23:46 out to support at all? Um, and if you
23:49 just ask that question, it changes the
23:51 way you look at your interface, uh, or
23:53 any one particular interface or like a
23:55 whole series of things. Like sometimes
23:57 in WordPress products, it's not that you
23:59 just like click a couple buttons and you
24:01 have the result. Sometimes you have to
24:03 do something across multiple different
24:05 screens and that that that'll happen.
24:07 That's especially in like Woo Commerce
24:08 for example. That's fine. But like do
24:11 that experience, go through what it
24:13 takes to do all those things. And if
24:15 along the way you don't know where
24:17 you're supposed to go next, don't make
24:19 people run over to your docs to figure
24:21 out where to go next. Like that makes no
24:23 sense. That's a really bad experience.
24:25 They're not going to like that. If they
24:26 have to read your docs at that point,
24:28 they're mad about it.
24:31 Exactly. As well, Matt, with that with
24:33 those docs, you know, most people just
24:35 have their docs in one language. And
24:38 WordPress is international, right? I
24:40 mean, this is worldwide, actually. And
24:42 so, but when you have video, even if
24:44 it's only in one language, I mean, I
24:46 could watch a Spanish video, but I can
24:48 see the screens and I can see where
24:49 they're going. And so, this is a visual
24:51 I can learn even if I can't understand
24:53 that language. Whereas if it's only the
24:55 language is only in Spanish in the
24:57 documentation, it's going to take me a
24:59 long time to read that is what I'm going
25:01 to tell you. So yeah, so having that
25:05 visual to go with it um helps. The other
25:08 thing is trade show booth
25:09 demonstrations, talking at conferences,
25:11 showcasing your product that way also is
25:14 again it's an in-person visual then,
25:16 right? You're showing it, you're right
25:18 there to answer questions. This also
25:20 will help you develop more
25:21 demonstrations for for more marketing
25:23 after that too. Y that's true. And
25:26 screenshots as well within your
25:28 documentation. A picture tells a
25:29 thousand words and is also international
25:31 as you say. Um and I also like to build
25:35 some sort of documentation into the
25:38 product itself. So let's say you've got
25:40 a settings page where settings may not
25:43 be
25:43 self-explanatory. Then you can add notes
25:46 underneath. You can add tool tips. There
25:48 are various things you can do. You can
25:50 make things appear conditionally based
25:52 on other settings to signpost people to
25:55 to use Matt's example to a different
25:56 page in Boo Commerce like great now
25:59 you've enabled that email. This is where
26:00 you go to edit the email's content or
26:03 something like that. So you need to
26:05 think about contextual documentation
26:07 which might have some read more links to
26:10 the relevant part of your actual
26:12 documentation but ideally it's all
26:14 self-explanatory within the product
26:16 itself.
26:17 Yeah, 100%. I mean, that's goes such a
26:21 long ways when folks first get a
26:23 product, especially a WordPress product
26:25 because in many ways now uh
26:28 nowaday uh you might not have a free
26:30 version anymore. Like a lot of folks are
26:33 not doing the free to pro um model
26:35 anymore. Sometimes folks are going
26:37 straight to pro um or you have a free
26:39 product but you're selling a pro product
26:42 and that experience is different. Well,
26:44 they haven't experienced that yet. So,
26:46 they go and they make a purchase and
26:48 then they add the pro in there and now
26:50 their experience is totally different
26:51 than what it was with free or there's
26:53 just or there's maybe additional screens
26:56 or something. Um, and they get in there
26:58 and then that experience in one way or
27:00 another is unsatisfactory. Well, you
27:03 just lost them. They're just like, I
27:04 just spent money on you and I don't like
27:06 this at all. This doesn't make any
27:07 sense. I don't understand. It's too
27:09 hard. Uh, you're making me feel like an
27:11 idiot. like that this is the kind of
27:14 feedback I've heard before. Um and uh
27:17 and it just changes the the whole way in
27:19 which um you're going to uh impact that
27:21 customer in the long term. Um they're
27:23 because they're they're not going to
27:24 like it. They're going to get a refund
27:26 and then they're going to tell their
27:27 friends too. They're like, "Don't don't
27:29 do that product. That product sucks." Um
27:31 and that's the worst. That's the worst.
27:33 That's to me that's why this subject is
27:35 so extremely important. uh making that
27:38 first impression in a way that really
27:40 matters that really impacts people in
27:42 the positive u is huge. It's just such a
27:45 big big
27:47 lifecher. Besides the product side
27:49 though I will say that I have had a lot
27:52 of experiences um with with customers
27:55 who you know let's just say let's take
27:57 cadence for example. Cadence is a is is
28:00 a lot. Cadence is a big thing. It's not
28:03 like a thing. It's a theme. It's a block
28:06 suite. It's a problock suite. It's a
28:08 conversion set. It's a um AB testing
28:12 tool. Uh it's it's a lot. Um and you can
28:16 start playing in there and finally like
28:18 get to a spot where where you really are
28:20 a little bit lost. We're like, I I know
28:22 it can do these other things. I just
28:24 don't quite know how to get there yet.
28:26 Um and so folks do reach out to our
28:29 support team. And the cadence support
28:31 team is just like 110 out of 100. they
28:34 really go uh bend over backwards and the
28:37 reviews that the Cadence team gets are
28:40 just like glowing reviews literally
28:42 today. Look, I I got to I got to pull
28:43 this one up real quick here. Uh we just
28:46 got this review on Trust Pilot today
28:49 that I have to read a little bit um
28:52 because it was so incredible.
28:56 Um one second, one second. One second.
28:59 There it is. Okay. Um, as someone
29:02 building a faith-based brand from the
29:04 ground up, I've interacted with many
29:05 platforms. WordPress, Woo Commerce, and
29:07 others, and help feels distant, and
29:10 support sends you to a maze of
29:12 tutorials. But Cadence WP, they sent me
29:15 Aaron Mariah and Carla Elaine. These are
29:18 two of our support people, customer
29:20 success person, and a support
29:22 supervisor. And these two women stood
29:24 out like Esther and Deborah. Gracious,
29:26 wise, and strong. It goes on and on. But
29:28 this woman was just like elated with the
29:32 customer support that she got. Um, and I
29:35 think because of that, she's going to be
29:36 a customer of Cadence for forever. Um,
29:39 and I mean, just to hear that kind of
29:41 praise. I don't uh Ezra and Deborah are
29:44 are prophetesses in the Old Testament.
29:46 It's like it's a huge compliment she
29:48 gave them. It was amazing.
29:51 Yeah. And Matt, to go along with with
29:53 that, I always suggest to uh customer I
29:55 mean clients to um create groups,
29:58 whether it be a Facebook group, a Slack
29:59 group, Discord group, whatever you want
30:01 for your customers to all join in
30:03 because and have and have a support
30:05 person in that group as well to help
30:07 answer questions as people have them. Um
30:09 but then you'll start to have your power
30:11 users out there will start answering
30:13 questions to your other users. And so
30:16 that actually creates that community
30:18 feel that is you know part part of what
30:21 is the big part of WordPress community
30:23 right is that community. Um and so you
30:26 utilizing community with your product as
30:28 well I think is also a thing that will
30:30 make it be a stronger product and and
30:32 and have a faster adaptability
30:36 100%. Um we need to make sure I hear
30:39 from you Robbie. What about some uh you
30:41 did share a little bit about this one
30:43 client that was 100 year old client um
30:46 not 100y old client client that's been
30:48 the business was around the company yes
30:51 they've almost been in business a
30:52 hundred years 98 years now at this point
30:54 um
30:56 yeah and and and like I said that to me
30:58 that was a it wasn't a WordPress example
31:01 per se but it was a very good example of
31:05 they were able to um we we we created
31:08 some video content content for them that
31:10 they were then able to utilize out there
31:12 with their current audiences and their
31:14 current dealer network and stuff to help
31:16 them get into another um in another
31:20 segment of their industry is really what
31:22 it was. Um and and that and and
31:24 utilizing visual content out there to do
31:28 that and help them drive into it. And
31:29 then they also then of course started
31:31 setting up landing pages to start
31:32 capturing emails for people who are in
31:34 that segment, things like that. um uh
31:37 from a WordPress product uh side of
31:41 things where we probably do the most
31:43 with that is OS training when we're
31:45 doing uh tutorials, video training on
31:49 different products. So you know like
31:51 maybe learn dash or um or even it could
31:54 be FileZilla something like that where
31:57 we are showing training of how to
32:00 utilize this. Now again our ours is to
32:02 teach people how to be web developers
32:04 out there and we know that a lot of our
32:06 customers or students rather on the OS
32:08 training side. Um a lot of them are
32:10 coming at a very beginner level and so
32:12 we're trying to showcase a product for
32:15 them but at a beginner level way and
32:17 then showing them how to actually use
32:19 that and we get contacted by a lot of
32:21 WordPress products out there to say hey
32:23 will you do a training course on my
32:25 product so that one they didn't have to
32:27 build it themselves they can just direct
32:29 them to that training. Um or sometimes
32:32 we get them where they ask for, hey,
32:34 will you white label do white label
32:36 training for us? And so we'll create the
32:38 training for them, but it all goes out
32:39 there under their name and on their
32:41 website and on their social media
32:43 platforms. Nice. That's great. I mean,
32:46 there's a lot of WordPress folks out
32:48 there that can use that kind of service,
32:49 honestly. Um the the training uh videos
32:52 are often um like an afterthought and
32:56 maybe not uh put enough uh strategy into
32:59 not enough uh u character and
33:02 personality into them sometimes
33:04 honestly. Um but they are so valuable
33:07 for sure. I I really love folks like
33:09 like Jamie Marslin's really great about
33:11 uh helping folks understand WordPress uh
33:13 and the Gutenberg editor a lot better.
33:16 he just comes alongside them in such a a
33:18 way that's really empowering and and
33:20 straightforward and simple and he always
33:22 is like, "Let's build this one thing.
33:24 Here's the thing we're going to build."
33:25 And he brings them there. Um and um I
33:28 think that's a really empathetic um and
33:31 uh and easy to access type of approach
33:33 for that type of thing. Absolutely.
33:35 Jaime's videos are great. Yeah, it's a
33:38 great example. Well, every episode we
33:41 wrap up with our best advice for all of
33:44 our audience. Um, and we typically think
33:46 of this like almost like an elevator
33:48 pitch. You know, you're at a word camp
33:50 and uh you're like seeing somebody going
33:53 the opposite direction. You're like,
33:54 "Hey, real quick, what's your best
33:55 advice on uh wowing early adopters?" Um,
33:59 you got like 30 seconds to tell them
34:02 what you think. Um, uh, so Robbie, you
34:05 want to go first? What do you think?
34:06 What is your best advice? What do people
34:08 What do you tell people when when
34:10 they're asking you, "How do I make a big
34:12 impact on my new customers?"
34:14 Um, and I and and kind of all the things
34:15 that I've been saying on here will be
34:17 what I'm going to include in this. But
34:18 my my elevator little uh talk to them
34:21 would just be, hey, make sure you've got
34:23 demonstrations. Make sure you worked
34:25 with some sort of focus group. Even if
34:27 it was just your friends to see how they
34:30 they were able to handle something so
34:31 that you can make those demonstrations
34:33 about your product even before you
34:35 release your product. Get it out there.
34:37 start building a hype showing people
34:39 what they're going to be able to do and
34:42 why they can't live without your product
34:44 and then they were going to be signing
34:45 up even for hey let me know when it's
34:47 available and that's what you really
34:49 want. Excellent. Love it. Katie, what
34:52 about you? Uh I would say don't assume
34:55 anything about your user. Think about
34:58 the journey from a user's perspective.
35:00 Get feedback from people as Robbie says
35:03 and really do that step bystep process
35:06 and think where might they get stuck,
35:08 where might they give up on your product
35:10 and really design it for the user. Love
35:14 it. My advice is to do an exercise of
35:18 thinking through all of the possible
35:21 frequently asked questions um as much as
35:24 possible. Um, you're going to ship a
35:26 product and it's not going to be perfect
35:28 and you know you're going to build some
35:29 more things to make it better and
35:31 better, but while those things aren't
35:34 there yet, people are going to ask about
35:35 them and maybe they're going to be
35:37 frustrated by them that the lack of that
35:39 feature. Um, but you need to be able to
35:42 have a solve in one form or another
35:44 right away. Uh, and there's going to be
35:47 other things where they're like, well,
35:48 how do I do this one thing? You know how
35:50 they should do that one thing. It's not
35:51 totally clear to them. You're going to
35:53 wow them with an amazing answer. Not
35:55 just like, "Hey, read my doc over here
35:57 about it." That's a crappy answer. They
35:59 don't want that. You're going to wow
36:01 them with a video or with a uh a real
36:04 explanation that walks them through it
36:05 and says, "Hey, I'm your friend. If if I
36:09 were you, this is how I would go about
36:11 doing it." Uh really come alongside and
36:13 impress them with uh empowering them to
36:15 have success with your product as
36:17 quickly as possible. So, in that list of
36:19 FAQs, you're going to either have this
36:21 is how I'm going to wow them with my
36:23 response or this is how I'm going to
36:25 help them overcome this lack of a
36:27 feature right now while I'm building
36:29 that feature so that I don't have to
36:31 deal with that for forever. U but every
36:33 single one of them is going to result
36:35 eventually in a satisfied customer
36:38 that's going to stay for the long term.
36:40 That's that's
36:42 me. Cool. Cool. Well, this is a great
36:45 conversation. And I really appreciate
36:46 you being here, Robbie. Thank you. Thank
36:48 you for having me on the talk. I love
36:50 it. WT product talk. WP product talks of
36:53 Yeah, it's a little early here where I
36:55 am, by the way.
36:57 Thanks for coming so early. Yeah. Yeah.
36:59 No worries. No worries. Thank you again
37:01 for having me on. This was a great show.
37:03 So well organized. I love it. I love it.
37:05 Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Katie. Yeah,
37:07 I appreciate
37:08 it. What are we doing next week? Oh, uh,
37:11 you know what? Next week actually um is
37:14 going to be maybe pre-recorded. Next
37:17 week, me and Katie and Zach and Amber,
37:22 we're all actually going to be at Press
37:24 Conf. Press conf is a big deal. Uh we're
37:26 excited about this conference. It's out
37:27 in Tempe, Arizona. Uh my good friend
37:30 Raquel has been organizing this for a
37:32 long time and uh she's really made
37:34 something really impressive. Uh and I'm
37:36 excited to be there. Um, I'm going to
37:39 try to pre-record something to talk all
37:41 about customer feedback and we'll launch
37:43 it out there next week. Um, if you don't
37:45 see it come out on Wednesday, then it'll
37:47 be a fast follow uh afterwards. So, um,
37:52 but we'll get it out there in one way or
37:53 another because customer feedback is a
37:55 big uh special one for sure.
37:58 Um,
38:00 yeah. And, um, yeah, go ahead Katie.
38:04 Okay. So, yeah, special thanks to Post
38:06 Status for being our green room. And if
38:08 you're enjoying these shows, uh, do us a
38:10 favor and hit like, subscribe, share it
38:13 with your friends in your newsletter.
38:15 Um, and don't forget to tune in whenever
38:18 we publish the next one, which will
38:20 hopefully be next week. Bye bye.
38:25 [Music]
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