This content is a discussion between two individuals, one of whom is a former Christian, offering advice to the modern church on how to retain its members, particularly in light of a perceived revival in Christianity. The core argument is that the church needs to "embrace faith, embrace truth, and embrace Jesus" by prioritizing genuine spiritual experience over rigid adherence to reason, acknowledging scientific and historical truths, and rejecting the pursuit of political power.
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Hey, I'm going on a tour of the United
Kingdom. If you've ever been interested
in that big question of God's existence
or try to make sense of religion in the
21st century or consciousness or
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tickets is in the description and I hope
to see you there. Did I say your name
wrong last time because I I would say Mcllorlin.
Mcllorlin. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. Then that's maybe my sort of
Irish heritage. Is Scottish or Irish?
>> Well, that's an interesting story. I I
thought it was Scottish. I took my
entire family to Scotland [laughter]
dressed up in the traditional garb. Got
pictures taken by what I thought was our
ancestral castle, the Lachland Castle.
And uh and then we learned that right
after my mother broke her ankle at the
castle, we learned that the spelling is
most likely Irish
>> cultural appropriation.
>> There's like a hundred different
spellings of it.
>> And so
>> there's no doubt that Lachlan Mlaclin
>> is more close to the original
>> son of Scandinavian or something it
means, right?
>> Well, you know more than that. I just
looked it up in the bathroom. Um, but
the the
>> So, so you probably said it more
accurately because the Mclofflin is like
an Americanization of it.
>> Mclofflin is what you would you would
say, right, with with like the
>> Well, growing up I would say McGlo
Mclofflin Mclofflin Mclofflin.
>> Well, um, whoever you are, welcome back
to the show. I was just trying to avoid
the comments again cuz some of them were
sort of like, oh, like, you know, funny
to hear his name like that. that I think
that's how it's
>> Well, it seems to be the the MMO of
anytime someone makes like a reaction
video to anything. [laughter]
If your name is a little bit hard to
pronounce, the beginning of the video is
them trying to figure out how to say the name.
name.
>> Yes. For me, it's people just making fun
of my my British accent and talking
about T.
>> I got to find something.
>> Happens all the time. Speaking of which,
our last episode, [laughter]
>> um, yeah, I thought it was great. It's
one of the most viewed episodes we've
ever done, which like in a way is
unsurprising because people like you so
much, but also like it was it obviously
just captured a great deal of of
attention and interest and um yeah, it
was very wellreceived. Also, you know,
for some a bit controversially received.
We were just talking about this. I put
that episode out on Easter Sunday.
>> Yes, you did.
>> It wasn't on purpose. I I genuinely like
because we talked about like the
resurrection and Jesus and stuff and and
we put out episodes on Sundays and an
episode has to go out that week and I
was excited to put out this episode I
done with you and and I put it out and
it's only afterwards that I'm seeing
people commenting like oh man he's oh
this is brutal you know talking about
the resurrection and I was like oh gosh
>> yeah and I know that wasn't your
intention and it wasn't my intention
>> it's definitely not your fault
[laughter] I know that much
>> well it's funny because you know we
talked about doing Yeah, another
episode, you know, when next time you
came into town. And I know we we talked
about is there like something in like
responding to the responses or whatever.
And I think we both agreed that that's
not we're not interested in doing that,
right? Um, and it's and it's funny
because a friend of mine, Paula Gia,
who's got a great YouTube channel, he's
a former Christian that examines the the
claims of Christians, um, he has he took
all of the sort of major channel
responses to our video and he made a
response to it and the name of that
video was, "Did Rhett just break
Christianity on Resurrection Sunday?"
Yeah. And you know, he's he's asking the
question in that way because first of
all, his channel's great and he's very
and I like the way he does everything so
thoroughly, but he's also very funny.
Yeah. Like every video is very funny. I
always appreciate a sense of humor being
thrown in there.
>> We'll see that in the description for
people. It's a great channel.
>> Yeah. And that video is is great. But,
you know, he's asking that question
because it's like you would think that
that was what we had set out to do,
right? Was that our conversation was
setting out to like be a critique of
Christianity or to break Christianity or
to like make a case against the resurrection.
resurrection.
>> And I always I honestly it may seem
ridiculous to I kind of forget that that
is how things are interpreted a lot of
times, right?
>> Because I see it like we're sitting down
to have a conversation. I'm trying to be
descriptive and not prescriptive.
>> But I think a lot of times obviously if
you're talking about well I'm I'm not a
Christian anymore and here's a couple of
reasons why I'm not going into some
really well articulated case against the
Christian against the resurrection but
it's implicit that I'm critiquing or I
have something against Christianity or I
don't I don't believe in it. And I also
think that so many of the, you know, I
as a as a Christian for most of my life,
anytime I spoke about Christianity, I
was being an advocate for it and I was
trying to get you to agree with me. And
so I think a lot of times it's just
like, oh, you must be trying to get
people to agree. And so we weren't
trying to break Christianity.
>> That's right.
>> I don't think I would be capable of
breaking Christianity. And I don't think
the Christianity needs to be broken. No,
that's the other thing. Yeah. And and
also I think a lot of because the
episode was quite big as well and
because I'm known as like the atheist
guy although people who follow my work
remotely closely know that I'm sort of
not really um yeah I don't sort of
identify with that strongly anymore. I'm
I'm sort of more of an agnostic and I
like to explore ideas and people think
that you know I've brought on my atheist
friend to gloat about how wrong
Christianity is. But like you know I
just had Bear Grills on the show. You
know Bear Grills? He's he's big in the
US as well. He's like
>> UK we love bear.
>> Yeah. So I had him on and he's just
written a book about Jesus and he's like
really strong on the faith and and I
brought him on and we just had like a
nice chat and I didn't like push back
too much. I was very grateful for his
time. Just wanted to talk about how you
rewrite the story of Jesus and like yeah
I I I do that too. I just like hearing
people's stories and I didn't get any
atheists actually somewhat surprisingly
in the comments of that section being
like you know why are you trying to
promote Christianity? It's like I'm I'm
not just trying to have a nice chat, but
I know what you mean. Like it's not necessarily
necessarily
Christianity that needs breaking, but I
think we can both agree that there are
certain ways that Christianity expresses
itself in the modern world and
throughout history that probably need
rethinking, right?
>> Yeah. I mean, I would go as far as to
say that I don't, you know, I don't
know. I can only
guess as to where I might be if
I came from a different Christian
background or if I had a different set
of beliefs where I approached this
differently. Um, you know, there's
definitely if if multiple world theory
is true, there's definitely a lot of
rats out there who are still Christians.
>> Uh, it could have gone a different way.
And I think that
now on the other side of it, you know,
as somebody who's no longer associates
with it, but is still so interested in
it, right? I can't I'm always going to
be interested in it because it's
formative to who I am. Yeah.
>> And I'm just interested in the ongoing conversation.
conversation. Um,
Um,
I've seen the way that Christians have
approached a lot of things and I kind of
realized that I had sort of developed
some ideas about
I've got advice for Christians
ultimately I think is what it is like if
you've got people like me who are in
your currently in the flock and you want
to keep them there.
>> I think there's some things that you
could do differently. Right. The the
crazy thing that's happening is like
you've talked about this a lot, but there's
there's
>> there is a crisis of purpose and
meaning, right? Like we are experiencing
people feeling this sense of
hopelessness and disconnectedness.
And then you've got the church kind of
stepping in. It's kind of having a
cultural moment, right? The church is
stepping in readymade purpose and
meaning. [laughter] You've got this
tested philosophy that's that's helped
millions of people, billions of people.
The it's showing up in the stats. uh you
know church attendance is up. I was
looking at one uh Barner research poll
that was the number of people who
considered Jesus a commitment to Jesus
to be a very important thing in their life.
life.
>> Like in 2021 I think that was around 54%.
54%.
>> In 2025
is 66%. It's a 12 point jump you know
and 54 was like the lowest it had ever been
been
>> right. Yeah. in a very short period of
time based on a number of different
factors. It's it's climbed to that level.
level.
>> And so the church is having a moment and
you've got all these people coming in
like I I thought it would be interesting
to sort of do what might not be expected
by [laughter]
the skeptic and the former Christian and
talk about what they can do to keep the
people who are coming through their doors.
doors.
>> Yeah. I mean, you you told me about this
when we I was talking about coming back
and you said, "Well, we could do like a
sort of, you know, advice for keeping
people in the church."
>> It's like,
>> okay, yeah, why why not? Let's But then,
yeah, we are both people who are former
Christians, and so we obviously have
some idea as to why we both don't find
it sort of particularly compelling, but
there's also a lot to like about it. And
there's a lot that I find really
interesting and meaningful in
Christianity that I do think gets kind
of misrepresented by various groups and
expressions of it. Right. And so yeah,
like you're right, there is this moment,
the revival that everybody's talking
about which
>> seems to be
in many ways political um seems to be a
result of like
>> political circumstance. But there does
also seem to be this kind of you know
spiritual moment that's happening. I
think it's because it's become sort of
fashionable to say that new atheism has
sort of died
>> and the promises that it made about, you
know, just regain your spiritual
autonomy and secular humanism will save
the world. It sort of hasn't really
worked out very well. And so, you know,
religion's there like it's like a
prodigal son moment. Sort of like, okay,
you know, come back, we'll welcome you
back in.
>> Um, but
>> you used to bring people into the faith
yourself. used to be part of the sort of
open door
>> and you know what it's like to
>> then sort of see the other side of that
door on the way out. So
>> how can we start talking about our ad
our advice to Christianity in in its
modern sort of revival to keeping people
inside? I brought something. [laughter]
I brought my Bible.
my this this Okay, so this is a first of
all, this is a reason why you should get
a real leather Bible and not the fake
[laughter] leather Bible
because this is what happens after 20
years is there's a good chance that as I
touch this Oh, look. See, it comes off
and this will get on your face. Whoa.
>> So, if I get a little Bible on my face, >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> let me know. Okay. Uh but yeah, this is
the one you know this is the way we used
to do it. you get your name on your
Bible so if somebody takes it they know
this belong belongs to
>> Mlofflin Mclofflin there it is
>> um no but I thought it would be
interesting so I I think that um
I think about the way that this happened
for me and I kind of see this is again
and I because I come from this
background it's just like there's a good
threepoint talk good three-point sermon
it kind of hit me that there are three
things three pieces of advice that I
would give to Christians if they want to
hold on to these people Now, let me just
say that one of the reasons I'm
motivated to do this is because,
you know, the church isn't going away.
The church is going to evolve. The the
church has always evolved and the church
continues to be a really important
cultural force. And in the United States,
States,
>> they basically have the biggest
influence on the direction of our
country right now. And I think that as a
citizen of the United States and a
citizen of the world,
I I have a a vested interest in the
church being healthy and the church
being a force for good. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Um
>> Um
and I think there's a little bit of
that. There's also some other things
that are happening in the church. So
that that's kind of the perspective that
I'm bringing in this, but I see it as
sort of three points. I would say they
need to embrace faith, they need to
embrace truth, and they need to embrace Jesus.
Jesus.
So the first thing you know when we talk
about faith
I think in many ways the modern
Christian church and I would say this is
most pronounced in sort of American evangelicalism
evangelicalism
>> um kind of took the bait of the enlightenment
enlightenment
>> right so you've got this one-two punch
of the reformation and the enlightenment
reformation of course when faith became
more personal and the access to
scripture and the experience of God
became something that could happen on an
individual level, right?
>> And then you follow it up with the the
Enlightenment where we go from
truth being determined by dogma by
tradition and authority
>> to truth being determined through observation
observation
u you know evidence. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
And I think that fast forward to modern
times and you've got Christian
apologists who spent a lot of time
making the case that Christianity is the
most reasonable worldview that you can have,
have, >> right?
>> right?
That the resurrection is the best
explanation for the start of the church.
Like the literal bodily resurrection of
Jesus is the most reasonable explanation
for the start of the church. And I think
that I don't think that's true. I don't
think it's the most reasonable
explanation for the start of the church.
But I think that what ends up happening
when you're when you have a brain like
mine and you are sort of motivated to
try to get the things that you believe
to line up with reality,
>> you're told this is the most reasonable
thing. And so you really jump in with
the reason and logic and then you
encounter a faith that says that reason
and logic can be a little bit overrated.
and that and and what I see in the Bible
from Jesus and also whoever wrote Hebrews,
Hebrews,
>> uh Paul,
>> I see a completely different message. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> So, I'm sure these are all verses that
you're familiar with, but just to like
to explore the idea of what faith looks
like in the Bible.
>> Let's take a look.
>> Follow along at home Bible study.
>> Yes. So, we're starting with, you know,
the uh the famous verse um in Hebrews,
Hebrews 11:1. Right now, I'm reading
from the ESV cuz that was my uh
translation of choice. It's not always
it's not always exactly what I'm looking
for, especially in this verse. But, you know,
know,
>> now faith is the assurance of things
hoped for, the conviction of things not
seen. And this is the beginning of this
hall of faith,
>> the conviction of things not seen. Now,
the NASB
says, "Now faith is the certainty of
things hoped for, the proof of things
not seen." Mhm.
>> Which I like that even more because it
fits with where I'm trying to go.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> And um what ends up happening in the in
the following chapter cuz you can't just
take that that that verse is that you
see a bunch of people in this hall of
faith, people who exercise faith to
accomplish all of these incredible
things. And it's people who found
themselves in a situation where
they had to rely on the authority of God
and on the in the word of God and God's
promises in order to move into faith.
But it was definitely some it wasn't
something that like I am going to reason
my way through this situation and I'm
going to make the decision that the
evidence suggests is the best possible
decision. It's like no, I'm going to
follow I'm going to follow what I hear
from God. Right?
So this I so right there we see that in
in in said in another another place you
know we walk by faith not by sight. So
again is this evidence and observation
or is this is this faith right?
Second verse that really brings this to
light or passage really. So this is this
is maybe my favorite passage just
because it's so uh personal to to me and
my experience. So you got Jesus in John
chapter 20. Mhm. So Thomas,
>> yes. So, you know, he has appeared to
the disciples and he's shown them the
holes in his hands and the in and the
hole in his side where he was pierced.
And then, of course, Thomas, what? I
don't know what he's doing. He's not there.
there. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> And then Thomas shows up later and
they're like, "We have seen the Lord."
And he's like, "Okay, well, that might
be good for you, but I I need to see him
and I need to literally place my fingers
in his hands. I need to place my hand in
his side.
>> And what does Jesus do? Well, he comes
back a week later and he's like, "Okay,
you want to you want to do this here?
Touch my hand. Touch my side." And
there's a great painting, the Incredul
of St. Thomas. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Which I want to get a print of this. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh just But interestingly, he's sticking
his finger in the side, not his whole
hand. Yeah. Missed opportunity.
>> Yeah, I think so. Although you
interestingly um as a actually yeah you
I'll I'll I'll get to this in a moment
but I it's not clear from the text and
this actually works really well with
what I'm presuming you're going to say.
It's not actually guaranteed by the text
that Thomas ever actually touches Jesus.
>> We only know that Jesus shows up and
offers come on then like touch me
>> right cuz he kind of continues in in
that and says stop doubting and believe.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
>> And then of course he says the the thing
that and I've heard you talk about this
as well. He's like, you know, you have
seen because you have believed because
you have seen. Blessed are those who
believe who have not seen.
>> Yeah. We'll get back to the show in just
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saving your time and your money. And
with that said, back to the show. Which
again, considering this sort of essence
of enlightenment values of empiricism
and observation to say, "Blessed are
those who believe without seeing." When
I ask Christians about this and I say,
"Look, what what is what's Jesus saying
here? Is he saying that you're supposed
to believe without evidence?" They say
typically, "No, no, no. It's more that
Jesus thought that Thomas or like
already had enough evidence based on the
witness of the disciples." like blessed
are those who could believe based on on
that amount of evidence. And if if that
even if that's the case, we're still
talking about sort of belief in
something which you have not directly
observed for yourself, but rather heard
through essentially a kind of authority.
That is the authority of like
trustworthy friendship,
>> which is much more in keeping with the
sort of traditional view of of authority
than this enlightenment scientific
approach. And it takes into account the
experience of almost everyone who's ever
responded to the gospel. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I think we talked a little bit about
this last time as well, but you know,
uh, it has only into a until a very
recent point in history, if I were to
share the gospel with you and tell you
about the risen Jesus, would you have
said, "Well, let me see if I can see
verify if that's true." Because you
wouldn't have had any tools to verify
that that was true. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like there's there was no scholarship on
that that anyone had access to. So if
that's such an important part, like
reasoning your way to that is such an
important part of the process, then why
is it that those tools have never been
made available
until very recently? And by the way, now
that the apologetics tools are
available, the small small minority of
Christians take advantage of it. Like
think about like I I saw a lot of people
come to know Jesus during my time in
ministry and I never not once after
sharing the gospel did I have someone
say do you have any way to prove that
that's true can you can we like is there
something I can read to to know that the
Bible is true
>> it was like no they were making it was a
faith decision it was a spiritual
decision and then maybe once they became
a Christian they might then go to
apologetics which again that's what
apologetics exists for is justified
belief that's already happened in a lot
of ways.
>> Um, but I just find it interesting that
you just don't get that from the Bible.
And Paul kind of, so we've seen the
example of Jesus talking about it and
then the writer of Hebrews, but Paul
gets even more explicit, which again, I
find this very difficult to reconcile
with modern apologetics. So you got 1 Corinthians
Corinthians
uh, chapter 1 verse, what is that? I
need my readers. 18. For the word of the
cross is folly to those who are
perishing, but to us who are being
saved, it is the power of God. And in
other translations, it says foolishness.
Right? And then he expands on this at
the top of chapter 2 where he says,
>> "And when I came to you, brothers, I did
not come proclaiming to you the
testimony of God with lofty speech or
wisdom. For I decided to know nothing
among you except Jesus Christ and him
crucified. And I was with you in
weakness and in fear and much trembling.
and my speech and my message were not
implausible words of wisdom but in
demonstration of the spirit and of power
that your faith might not rest in the
wisdom of men but in the power of God. M
plaus this is not a plausible
>> argument that you're trying to make. And
again, the reason I think this is this
is so important for from a Christian perspective
perspective
is that when you tell somebody like me that
that
the resurrection has incredible
evidence, that is the most well attested
uh event in the ancient world. And then
you look at what the evidence is that
there that exists and you're like, well,
that's not true. Like that's not true.
Like you can believe you can choose to
believe it is an explanation of the
beginning of the church. But there are
natural explanations that can explain
everything that we know about the
church. And of course, they're more
plausible from a just reason and logic
standpoint. And if you think about any
other religious claims, like I I always
find it really interesting the way
Protestants don't give any time to the
Marian apparitions, right? Like
[clears throat] when I was a Christian
>> and basically kind of a Baptist, like a
non-denominational Baptist,
>> I heard about these Marian apparitions
that had happened throughout history.
some very recently and some very well attested.
attested.
>> Some with like newspaper like you can
read about you can read press interviews.
interviews.
>> Is that the one in Zune or
>> people who were there? I I I
think so. Yeah, there's one in
particular that I'm thinking of but I
can't remember where it was.
>> It was like it was like three years that
it kept happening someplace
>> and like groups would show up and you'd
have like newspaper reporters and they'd
all claim to tell you exactly what
they'd seen and and even with those
firsthand written like accounts
>> Yeah. They just Protestants are like,
>> "Well, yeah." And it's not that
Protestants examine those
>> and then say they're not true. They
don't even give them the time of day.
Like I knew that they existed, but it
wasn't even worth my time to consider.
Well, yeah. I mean, Catholics believe
something, but it's not true. It's like
and I and and there in that moment where
you're dismissing that Catholic belief,
you are resting on human reason because
you're like
>> you may not articulate this, but what
you're saying is that well there's
obviously a natural explanation for
this. I don't know what it is.
>> Even within Protestant Protestantism,
you've got I wasn't charismatic, so I
didn't speak in tonesues, right?
>> I thought that if you spoke in tonesues,
it was maybe for like an evangelistic
purpose to like reach somebody like it
you saw in the the book of Acts. But
this idea of like going to a charismatic
church and they start speaking in
tongues and somebody interprets and it's
like literally like the tongue of an
angel or whatever. I I didn't I thought
that was BS,
>> right? And I didn't even take a lot of
time thinking about it, but I was using
reason and logic to be like, well, this
is probably some emotional experience or
whatever. And it's like they're still
Christians. They're still in the fold.
Catholics, I don't know about them. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and even other you know about this
rainbow body stuff. Rainbow body. So
this is fascinating. Dale Allison talks
about this. I had never heard about it but
but
>> wait I have heard of this. What? Tell me
about this.
>> It's in Tibetan Buddhism. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And there is this idea that if you are a
very enlightened individual like fully realized
realized
I guess like Daly Lama level
>> that when you die your body transforms
into light directly.
>> And so what they observe is that the
body gets smaller and smaller.
And I think they call it rainbow body
because you'll see a rainbow like like
wherever they're in tmbed or whatever
there's like a rainbow that's coming out
of it as they transform into light. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> And the only thing left is a lot of
times hair, teeth, and fingernails.
>> And of course, if you don't have a
reason to believe that, then you're
like, "Well, that didn't happen. That
doesn't happen. That's not real."
>> And but people are probably thinking
that didn't happen even if that's the
first time they've ever heard of this.
If you're a Christian listening, you
probably going like, "Oh, yeah. Well,
you know, like you haven't looked into
it. You don't know what the evidence
is." I'm sure there's like a wealth of
great attestations and and you know, but
but like it kind of doesn't matter
because like that obviously didn't h
right. There's a Catholic I need to read
more about this, but there's a Catholic
I think a Catholic priest who went to
spend time
like in the last hundred years
>> spent time over there and investigated
these claims directly and basically says
I interviewed all these people. I don't
know if he saw it for himself but he's
like talking to these people and he's
like this is very very well attested.
Yeah. It doesn't seem like a hoax. It
doesn't seem like something they're
making up. He was actually trying to
make a parallel between rainbow body and
the resurrection. Right.
>> Interestingly, and I don't again I don't
want to speak too much on it because I
don't know too much about it, but if the
central claim of Christianity was
rainbow body, Jesus rainbow body, which
that would really confuse things [laughter]
[laughter]
>> with the pride flag and everything. What
do we do at that point?
>> Reclaiming a rainbow for for Christ,
>> but like if that was the central claim
>> of Christianity, that would be the thing
that apologists are defending. But we're
not even considering it. We don't even
know about it. It's something that
there's like this tertiary knowledge of
it. And I just think that again you're
digging in and again you there's if you
look at like Muslim apologetics which
I've looked at a little bit but there's
certain miracles and
>> Oh yeah. Yeah.
>> And it's just like you see kind of a
onetoone apologetics channels that if
you if you want to find those of like
defense of things like the splitting of
the moon and things like that that like
it it just feels very very similar. So anyway,
anyway,
I I think the point is is that it it
seems that according to the way that
Jesus talks about it, the way that Paul
talks about it, that if you make a dec
like this is this is happening on a
spiritual plane and this decision that
you make to believe in the resurrection
is not because it's the most plausible
thing, not because it's the most
Paula G has got a great video and a
great uh theory on this called the
minimal witnesses hypothesis. which I
think is a great it's you know I I love
the guy and I think he's it's a great
channel but
>> basically saying that like here here's a
natural explanation for how the church
started that is plausible now do we know
that that's what happened no we don't
have the level of insight that we can
have into these events
>> u but you can choose to believe I think
it's just I was ultimately what I'm
asking for I think is just embrace the
fact that it's a faith and if you're
saying that you believe this in faith
because you trust God and then there's
legitimate spiritual transformation that
takes place. Why is that not a good
enough argument? Why do we have to get
into using reason and logic? Cuz for me,
I was told it was true because it was
reasonable. When I found out it wasn't
reasonable, I concluded that it wasn't true.
true.
>> Yeah. it sort of um sets up the the way
in which it could be falsified because
like if your belief is that this has to
essentially be grounded in empirical
evidence or rationality then if it if
you discover that actually the case
isn't as good as you thought it was and
you know so it's not for us to say that
it's definitely unreasonable or that
there is no evidence but even just on a
practical level if somebody becomes
convinced that the arguments they heard
from an apologist that made them think
about Christianity actually aren't as
well founded if that's what brought them
into the church, then that's what will
send them right out again. You know,
it's um you know, the same the same hand
that leads you in
>> also pulls you out. Okay. And so in that
case, is it not better to ground
Christianity in what historically people
have claimed is the most sort of
important part about your relationship
with God, which is the the experience,
the the faith, the sort of personal
commitment to a relationship with Jesus,
that kind of stuff. And yeah, you're
right. I mean like if you if you look
closely the Bible is is constantly
talking about I mean there's a passage
where it talks about how you sort of
like shouldn't be fooled by philosophy.
>> Yeah. You know and cuz there was a lot
of sophisticated Greek philosophy that
Paul was running into. Yeah. And they
were you know this is the beginning. He
was like in the heyday of this Greek thought
thought
>> and he understood it and he was
basically saying if we get into thinking
like these guys it's going to lead us
away. the resurrection will be foolish
if I'm using this as my parent.
>> Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Like if if
we were sort of
>> trying to sort of argue in this way, the
resurrection would be foolish.
>> Well, in so many ways, that's what a
modern atheist on Reddit says, isn't it?
Like, you know, the resurrection is
foolish according to reason and
rationality. And in a way, as a
Christian, you could say, yeah, yeah,
wouldn't that be a, you know, jiu-jitsu?
They, you know, I can't remember. It
means something like literally like
>> I wish I remember this, but in jiu-jitsu
the And I'm not I I took I took I was a
yellow belt in karate.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> But like the idea that you use the
momentum of your opponent and you don't
necessarily use your strength and you
don't dig in, but if they're coming hard
this way and you kind of let them go
past you and you flip them or whatever,
>> but exactly like
>> the skeptics are saying this is a
foolish thing to believe. As a
Christian, why can't you say, "Yeah, it is."
is." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But try it. Yeah.
>> Like what would that be like? Right.
Versus, no, no, it's not. No, no, no,
no. It's reasonable. Let me show you.
Oh, here's the historical evidence. It's
just like, and then you're like, yeah,
the historical evidence is real thin, guys.
guys.
>> And and there's very few Christians who
who are willing to admit that. Dale
Allison is my favorite of all of them
because he is willing to admit that he
has made a faith decision because you
can't look into this cloud of history
and come to confident conclusions.
>> He's phenomenal. I just um I had him on
my show I think between seeing you last
and now. I think I hadn't had him on
when I when I last spoke. I've had him
on the show. Great episode. He's also
one of my I mean his book on the
resurrection. I think we said this last
time is like
>> the it's like I I always want to say
it's the only book you need to read on
the resurrection including the Bible.
>> You can read the you can read the
introduction. Yeah.
>> And adopt that way of thinking and you
save yourself a lot of pain. I I often
find that like I I was speaking to
>> a biblical scholar friend of mine
recently and he was sort of like you
know sometimes I I feel like I enjoy
reading about the Bible more than I en
enjoy reading the Bible. I like yeah me [laughter]
[laughter]
too man. Um but yeah, I spoke to uh John
Lennox on the show as well and one of
the things that I spoke with him about
was that
>> um if you believe that Christianity is
based on rational argumentation. Now it
like it may be that Christianity or or
theism in general can be um supported by
evidence. Maybe the complexity of you
know a biological cell points to God or
you know language or whatever. The
problem is that if you think that that
is what you need to like ground the
faith, that's what you need to sort of
get the faith going, then what this does
is it creates an intellectual barrier
for entry.
>> It means that if if you are not smart
enough to understand the calam
cosmological argument, if you don't know
how premises lead to conclusions, if you
don't know the difference between
deductive and inductive logic, then
you're not going to be a Christian. And
because this is the way that
Christianity is supposed to be proven to
people, if you don't understand, you
know, historical methodology, if you
don't understand what a criterion of
embarrassment is, if if you're not smart
enough to work that out, then sorry,
mate, you know, Christianity isn't for you,
you, >> which
>> which
>> is sort of unthinkable when put in those
terms. It is completely unthinkable that
that is what Christianity would be
about. So, this isn't to say that there
aren't good arguments you can make and
and good evidences that you can discuss,
but the idea that that is like the way
in and that that is the reason for your
faith, I think is a mistake, at least as
a practical measure for trying to bring
other people.
>> It's not biblical.
>> Yeah, that's right.
>> You're supposed to become like a child.
>> That's right. Yeah. And so I'm it to me
it just feels like a temptation,
>> a human temptation that Christians have
fallen for. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> To be like, well, no, no, I got I I need
to make this I need to make this reasonable.
reasonable.
>> It's just like, do you trust God? You
don't really have to make this make
sense from a from a human standpoint.
Does it make sense from a spiritual
standpoint in your in your particular experience?
experience?
>> And you know, it's because some people
some Christian listeners might be
thinking of of Romans chapter 1. In
Romans chapter one, Paul says uh that
like sort of God and his invisible
qualities have been known for all time.
>> Without excuse. You're without excuse.
>> People are are without excuse. I can't
remember the the exact exact phrasing.
Maybe we can find it or put it up on
screen. Um, and
some people will listen to that and go
like, "Oh, well, it says that, you know,
like God can be known through like sort
of the world that we live in and and but
the fact that it says that no one is is
with excuse that every single person
knows God's existence also I think
implies that whatever it is that Paul is
talking about there, the kind of thing
which sort of guarantees that anyone can
know God cannot be some complicated
syllogism or you know biological
observation through a microscope or
something like that. It has to be
something that is just present in every
single person naturally. And that's not
going to be something like apologetical
argumentation, right?
>> And even with that passage, if you think about
about
>> what is that? Can I borrow your Bible?
Yeah. While you're talking,
>> if you think about what
>> pass the Bible on the left hand side,
>> if you think about who Paul was writing
to and what they understood, >> yes,
>> yes,
>> I think someone in the first century was
without excuse because there was no
explanation at all for reality apart
from a personal god in many ways, right?
Uh the modern world only made
>> Oh, sorry.
>> Now you just revealed that this is diet
Dr. Pepper that you're drinking.
>> Oh, it's whiskey. Can we get a tip? Is
that really bad? This is a
>> No, no, no.
>> This is a This is like a This is a a
proper Whopper table.
>> You know who sits at this table on a
regular basis? Link Neil. [laughter]
>> You if this table is Link Neil proof,
it's Dr. Pepper proof.
>> You were saying
>> I was saying that at the time that Paul
was writing, >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I do think it would have been
unreasonable and stupid to be like,
there's nothing behind this.
>> Yes. I'm looking at Romans chapter 1
verse 18, but I'm I'm skipping forward
importantly to chapter to verse 20 here.
Uh for his invisible attributes, namely
his eternal power and divine nature,
have been clearly perceived ever since
the creation of the world in the things
that have been made so that they are
without excuse. Yeah, it's odd reading
it in the in the ESV, but it's it seems
to imply that it's got something to do
with the actual world. It's not just
like this internal thing. It is
something about like looking at the
world and his invisible qualities are
present in there somehow. But the fact
to me the important thing is that he
says that they're without excuse like
that every person um have been clearly
perceived ever since the creation of the
world like implies again that whatever
it is it can't be complicated and it
can't require like a great deal of
reflective thought.
>> Yeah. This is plain essentially.
>> Yeah. And I do I mean, you know, I uh I
still have a lot of Christians say that
to me today. It's like, isn't it
obvious? Isn't it like look at the
sunset? Like, isn't it obvious that that
there's a God? And I'm like,
well, there are parts of me that are
very that that are very um, you know,
that makes sense to me that there that
there is this beautiful creation, there
is this beautiful world and that
>> it very well could be the case that
there's something or someone behind it.
But it could also be that that someone
is in it and this is just inherent in
the nature of the way that this works,
you know, with like some sort of
pantheist. I idea. I just don't think I
can I'm not going to figure it out.
>> Like, you know, I'm just that's how I
respond to that. I'm like, "Yeah, that's
cool." And maybe that's the case. And I
see how that if you're a Christian, then
this is kind of a bedrock philosophical
idea. And I respect that and I'm not
trying to get somebody to question that.
But it's not even if we came to that conclusion,
conclusion,
we might at best arrive at dism. Yeah.
You know, I would really like to see the
extent to which this revival, the people
who are sort of going back to church,
particularly young people, if I could
like interview them on the way in and
ask them like what is bringing you here
like specifically like and I really
doubt that they would say, you know, I
listened to this lecture by William Lane
Craig and he was talking about the
nature of causation and the penny
dropped. There are some people maybe
sure but I would just presume that it's
much more experiential. Yeah. It's much
more personal. It's much more
subjective. I
>> I think that it is a it's a sense of belonging.
belonging.
>> Yeah. And you know you know what the
enlightenment did um in my view. You
know what the scientific method does? I
talk about this all the time in the
context of consciousness which I won't
get into. If you're if you got your sort
of Alex a kind of bingo cards at home
there's consciousness. We still need to
do the gnostics and I need to talk about
triangles in in the head. Right. Um but
I talk about it when it comes to
consciousness because my friend Philip
Goff wrote a book called Galileo's error.
error. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> He's a big panyist. He believes that you
know science can't explain
consciousness. And Galileo's error was
like mathematizing the world
>> in such a way that it just precluded
talk of consciousness. Galileo said that
mathematics is the language of the
universe. Right? And
>> as a scientist that makes sense. Yeah. I
can describe physical operations and
stuff all in the language of maths. The
problem is that by defining the universe
in that way, you've excluded anything
which cannot be described with
mathematics essentially. And you kind of
get a bit of the same problem here,
which is that
>> what science does is it moves you from
the subjective to the objective, from
internal to external. The purpose of
science is to say like I'm seeing a
table right now, a stained table right
now. You're seeing a stained table right now.
now.
>> It's kind of dry.
>> It's it's drying as we speak. Um, but
you know, our perspective of how it's
drying and the shape of the stain and
all that kind is is very different. You
know, you're seeing a different image
literally to me. So, what does science
do? It says if somehow we could like
step outside of ourselves and see the
table for what it really is,
>> as opposed to how I'm interacting with
the table and how you're interacting
with the table.
>> That's what the purpose of science is.
It's like, yeah, you have that
experience and you have that experience,
but what's really going on? What's the
actual nature of stuff? So, it moves
out. But if faith is supposed to be
personal and subjective and individual
and inward, then this approach of
stepping outside of yourself and trying
to see the world for how it really is
absent any personal considerations is
like inappropriate.
>> It's like stepping up to the gates of
heaven with the wrong key.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> You know, it's just like, well, I I I I
believe this because it's the most
reasonable thing and it was proven to me.
me.
>> Yeah. And I also find it very difficult
to believe that like you would get to
the pearly gates and God would sort of
say to you like you know do you think
that this argument is valid or what's
your sort of historical belief in that
like it it really feels like that
wouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's
attention when it came to which is why I
think this reading of doubting Thomas is
really interesting because like
>> and in fact
>> there's a bit of a conspiracy theory
here that the reason why you know the
the Christian world was insistent on
depicting Thomas physically touching
Jesus was because it was like this great
enlightenment sort of answer to the
enlightenment. Like here's the empirical
proof that Thomas has and sort of the
the physicality of of Jesus and all that
kind of stuff. Um but if Thomas never
touches the wounds then then what
actually happens? Well Thomas says when
he hears about Jesus he says I would
like to see evidence. I want to touch
him. I want to thrust my hand into his
side. Then Jesus shows up and meets him
and says, "I'm here. Come and touch me."
At which point Thomas just like drops to
his knees and says, "My Lord and my God."
God."
>> There's a reading of this which because
it doesn't narrate him touching the
wounds. There's a reading that says that
what happened was Thomas demanded
evidence, wanted evidence, but when he
actually met Jesus, he instantly just
realized how like silly that was
>> and was like, "Oh gosh, you know, my
Lord and my God." You know, and Jesus is like,
like,
>> "Blessed because you you know, you
believe because you've seen, not
touched, seen."
>> Yeah. Right.
>> You believe the painting the painting
was interpreted too much. It's it's
interesting to think about. This is a
little meta, but it's almost like if the
sto, you know,
the story is a later, you know, it's in
John, so it's one of the last things.
And it's like John is responding to some
of the things and some of the critiques
that have come along
>> and this importance of the bodily
resurrection, which you don't see in Mark,
Mark,
>> has suddenly become central to the
beliefs. And now that's a part of this.
It's almost like even within the Bible
itself, they're already
responding in the wrong way.
>> That's that's an interesting little
rabbit hole.
>> Yeah. cuz I mean the like some people
think that John's gospel being the
latest was written with some kind of
pmical intention that there were things
going on
>> in the early church community that
John's gospel is written in order I mean
my favorite example to talk about here
is always John the Baptist because in
John's gospel it's like
>> you know there was the first person
named in in the gospels unless you count
the word in the gospel of John uh is
John the Baptist you know there was a
man called John
>> who was not the Messiah and he was
preparing the way for the Messiah
because he himself was not the Messiah.
He was just making way for the Messiah.
And then John, who was not the Messiah,
it's like really wanted to know that you
know, some people came and they asked
him, "Are you the Messiah?" And he said,
"No, I'm not the Messiah." Why would you
think that?
>> It's like, okay, what? And it seems to
be that there were people who believe
that John the Baptist was the Messiah.
So, this is sort of a pmical attempt to
reestablish, you know, Jesus's position
as the main guy. Some people think
similar things going on with like the
emergence of Gnostic, there it is.
Bingo. uh Gnostic Christian sects in the
early church that
>> believe that Jesus is this like
ephemeral spiritual apparition kind of
and it's like no no we're going to we're
going to emphasize Jesus's physicality
with the where he you know is you
physically presenting himself to the
disciples and so yeah it's not quite
clear that this actually happened. It
also only shows up in John's gospel the
uh the gospel of the this this story of
doubting Thomas. Um and also it seems to
serve some theological purpose which is
a lot of I didn't realize this for the
longest time. I can't remember exactly
where I learned about it, but you know
when Jesus says, "Anyone who seen me has
seen the father."
>> Who is he responding to when he says
that? He's responding to Phillip. And a
lot of people know, oh well, it's
because Philillip asks, you know, Jesus,
when are we going to get to see the
father? And Jesus says, anyone who's
Phillip, don't you know how long have
you been with me? Anyone who's seen me
has seen the father.
>> But Philillip doesn't actually start
that conversation.
>> It's Thomas that starts the
conversation. Thomas asks Jesus
something at which point Jesus then says
the famous um you know I am the way the
truth and the life no one comes to the
father except through me at which point
Philillip asks when do we get to see the
father and then he says anyone who's
seen me has seen the father so it's
interesting that at the end of the gospel
gospel
>> it's Thomas who sees Jesus and says my
lord and my god as if he's finally
understood the answer to his question
earlier that anyone who sees me has a
good narative yeah so there's a lot of
like theological motivation so whether
it happened historically. In a way, you
kind of want to say, "Who cares? We're
never going to know." Like, there's good
reason to think that it did happen. That
it it's it's not historical, but maybe
it was. Like, who knows? But what's the
message here? Like, what are we what are
we being like told by this story? And I
don't think there's a very easy way to
read this as like very
pro-enlightenment. Let's put it that way.
way.
>> Oh, no. And I think that's, you know,
like I think that I'm speaking to an
audience who believes that it's the
inspired word of God, that it's it's all
it's all true.
>> And so I'm like, okay, well, if you do
believe that,
>> then how does that actually impact the
way that you think about this? Because I
think that Christian apologetics has
actually done a lot of harm.
>> Mhm. Maybe I I feel like that
apologetics is this double-edged sword
because there's a lot of people who
first of all there's a lot of people who
never think about their faith from an
introspective way and there's never any
kind of self critique.
>> Those people don't have any use for
apologists. There their pastor may
occasionally preach a sermon that gets
into apologetics, but they're just like,
"Yeah, yeah, I know it's true. You don't
really have to convince me." Then
there's people who start asking
questions and the apologetics answers
are satisfying and that's it. that's
they don't dig deeper. I think it is
useful for those people, but for the
people and again I think the church
wants to keep these people the most
curious and the most thoughtful who are
like well let me look into the answers
that I'm being given and then that's
when things to begin begin to fall
apart. And I just think they're being
led down a road where
they're being asked to really think
about this very deeply versus experience
this deeply spiritual
>> and and so yeah, we could talk about
that point forever. We can move to the
next point.
>> Yeah. Well, um yeah, let's let's move
on. But I I think I mentioned earlier
this quote about philosophy being it's Colossians
Colossians
chapter 2 verse 8 which perhaps you can
find in in this Bible and uh and read
out just because I think this is
essentially in summary like what we're
talking about here and I think it's I
think it's summarized perfectly well there.
there.
>> Yeah. So it says Colossians 2:8, "See to
it that no one takes you captive by
philosophy and empty deceit according to
human tradition, according to the
elemental spirits of the world and not
according to Christ." Again, this is the
same, he's just like hidden the same
message again.
>> Yeah. And I think that the most
important part of that is the human tradition.
tradition. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. It's like and I I don't actually
know what the what the word philosophy
would have meant to Paul. Like it
probably would have meant something
quite different to to what we mean. Um I
mean philosophy being a Greek term like
love of wisdom felo and Sophia um I
would presume that it was literally the
same word being used in the Greek there
but like we don't know exactly what it
meant but it quite clearly is talking
about like human tradition human thought
human ways of thinking don't be held
captive by them and okay when you first
hear that it's like don't be held
captive in the sense that like I've
captivated you with a with a you know
sophistic argument that's not really
actually True. You can also read this as
like don't be held captive by it in that
even if it's sort of even if it works,
even if it's accurate, even if it's like
helping you to spread the message, it
will keep you captive in the sense that
now you've defined the terms that you
have to play by such that if somebody's
got a good reason
>> against your faith or if someone's got,
you know, a doubt of your historical
methodology or something,
>> well, you've made that bed and and now
you have to defend it on those terms.
Don't be held captive by this approach.
And I think that's a wonderful summary
of just what we've been talking about
>> and it's the opposite because he's
saying to be you know this is according
to Christ not according to you know so I
think that again it's not like hey this
is not that good of an idea it's like no
this is actually counter to like because
if you if if Jesus is real if the spirit
is real there's real transformation
that's happening like you're literally
becoming a new creation if those things
are happening then you see how the human
philosophy, tradition, and reason just
pales in comparison. It's like
>> it's like if I do a magic trick, if I do
a literal magic trick,
>> and then you're like, "Well, explain how
that happened." I'm like, "It's magic,
man." Like, I if I explain to you how it
happened, I'm taking away from the magic
of it. And it's almost like what you're
saying when you
>> really buy into the explanation is that
you don't believe in magic. Yes. Yeah.
What is it? Um what is it Lewis said? CS
Lewis said, "I believe in Christianity
for the same reason I believe in the
sun. Not just because I can see it, but
because by it I can see everything else."
else."
He has some good ones.
>> He's a He's got some He's got some
bangers. He's got some bangers. Okay. Um
moving on. We've done one. So, yeah.
Yeah. So, this this is first this middle
one is really fast and actually doesn't
rely on the Bible. Uh I mean, I'm sure
we could find some verses that support
this idea, but it's embrace truth,
right? Again, we talked a little bit
about this last time.
I think the biggest example of this
being that the church has a truth
problem is that at least within the
United States about depending on what
poll you look at, but about 60% of the
church does not believe in evolution.
They don't they think that humans were
created in their current form.
And here's this is the crazy thing, right?
right?
That is a controversial statement to say
that the church has a truth problem
because the majority of them don't
believe in evolution. And I can see the
comments just rolling in right now that
evolution is just a theory. There are no
transitional fossils. Every mutation is
detrimental. Evolution is falling apart.
Even the evolutionists don't believe in
it and they're they're fighting all the
time and the mechanisms don't work and
all this stuff. All these platitudes and
tired things.
the fact that these I like to call them
uh high confidence low information
people, [laughter] >> right?
>> right?
>> Which that's a great recipe for giving
leaving a YouTube comment uh it makes it irresistible.
irresistible.
>> Um the fact that what I'm saying right
now that that being stated as a truth
problem is just evidence of the truth
problem because this is again I'm not
going to give a case revolution. Lots of
people have done that. But this is the
most well attested fact of the natural
world. It's the only way that we can
make sense of what we actually see,
including the human. Like a lot of
people are like, I believe in some sort
of evolution, but uh humans are separate
from that. Well, that doesn't you can't
do that. Humans are part of it very
clearly. There's no there's
>> there's no like qualitative difference.
difference.
>> Um and it's very clear that we are
related to all animals. Why is this such
a big deal? Well,
because anyone who actually, and I use
this as a limit test, and I'm listen,
I'm going to sound a little bit like an
when I say this. I understand
that because if you're coming from a
certain worldview where you think this
is, this is not true.
um the the disinformation campaign that
the church has successfully pulled off
to make people misunderstand evolution
and think that it it is incompatible
with their faith or it's just not true
has been so successful that it kind of
makes talking about it this really
controversial thing.
But the thing is is that if you don't
believe in evolution, I know one of two
things. Number one, which is most
common, is you really don't understand
what evolution is and you don't
understand the evidence for it. Mhm. >> Right.
>> Right.
Or number two, you do understand it, but
yet you hold to a dogma so tightly that
can't let it in that you are you you
find some way to
have this cognitive dissonance where you
can kind of push it to the side, right?
And again, that will be insulting to a
lot of people and I apologize for that
because I know it's not a question of
intelligence. It's a question of dogma
and a question of misinformation.
But the crazy thing about this is that,
and I talked about this before, this
idea that why was people are like, "Why
is this such a big deal to you?" Because
there's plenty of Christians who believe
in evolution. Why did you let this
affect you so much? And I tried to be
clear, and I'll say it again. I didn't
stop being a Christian because of
evolution because there's plenty of CS
Lewis. There's plenty of Christians who
believed in evolution. But what it did
for me is it caused me to develop a
trust problem with the most powerful
voices in the in the faith who were
leading me through some of these issues
and helping me think about them.
>> I see. Um
and the interesting thing is that some
of the most prominent apologetics voices
today, people who have a lot of traction
on YouTube, they readily admit they
believe in evolution because they are
familiar with the evidence and they
understand that it's not a controversial
thing. It's not like, well, you could,
they know that it's true,
>> but it's such a consequential truth that
if you have the majority of people in
your church not believing it. That's a
that represents a really significant
truth problem. And I just don't know why
more of them are not shouting it from
the rooftops of like we got to get this
right. Like we have to accept this fact
if we're going to move if we're going to
move forward in the long term. We have
to accept this fundamental fact of about reality.
reality.
Um, and so and I think there's some
downstream effects like in your
conversation uh on Diary of a CEO with
uh what's was it Greg?
>> Greg Coug
we're doing the same thing.
>> You can't talk about somebody with a
weird name without saying it wrong. I
think you say it focal or kofal I think
is the >> um
>> um
>> the American way
>> you kind of got into which is inevitable
a lot of times with an apologist a
little bit of the moral argument right
where we're talking anytime a skeptic
says anything about right or wrong
there's this appeal to well where you
what's your basis for that and then
we're into the moral argument
but there's an interesting thing related
to this that a lot of times they end up
having to dismiss the evidence for the
development of ethics and morality in
humans. So you've got these, you know,
precurs precursory
moral intuitions that you see in
non-human primates. So you see empathy
and you see sharing and you see these
other things like we have a good natural
explanation for the nature of morality
as it exists in humans.
>> But that research has to be dismissed
because that can't be true because
though animals don't actually have
precursory morality. They might have
some kind of common gray. I don't know
how it's explained really. But what I'm
getting at is that not accepting this
core truth, you end up not accepting
other truths. Like now we can't really
talk about ethics in a meaningful way
without just appealing to there's some
egyptic eject objective standard that
God has given us. And that's where
morality comes from. It's like well
actually if you look at the latest
research, we've got really good reason
to believe that these moral intuitions
evolved. H well what do you think is the
resistance then if there are so many
Christians who accept evolution and seem
to not have too much issue with that why
is there such a cultural resistance
within popular Christianity in America
to this idea that we share a common ancestor
ancestor
>> well I think one thing is trying to
reconcile it with Genesis
>> so I think that and and I would say
specifically reconciling it with the fall
fall
>> I think original sin and the fall are
theologically very important.
>> Yeah, that's true.
>> So, like Tim Keller, uh, the late Tim
Keller, we talked a lot about this. He
like accepted evolution and and again, I
read a lot of these guys when I was my
faith was floundering because I was
like, well, there's a lot of really
smart guys that believe evolution, but
how do they reconcile it? I wasn't
satisfied. Again, I was operating
completely in reason and logic. I wasn't
satisfied. I didn't feel like there was
an actual
>> uh great explanation for this. is like,
"Oh, well, you know, we know from from
genetics that we probably only got down
to about 10,000 people. I can't remember
the exact number, but like we never got
down to two people." >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Even like the mitochondrial Eve and the
like the the Adam the literal Adam and
Eve, like the male and female who are
the progenitors of the human race. They
didn't live at the same time, but like
there's a male that everybody's related
to and there's a female that everybody
is related to,
>> but they were at different times like
according to genetics. And it's kind of
interesting to look into that,
>> but I think it's hard to reconcile what
you see in the Bible when you're like,
well, I'm going to start taking this
account literally and I'm going to take
the entire penetuk literally and I'm
going to look at the flood story and all
this stuff. And so I think there is a
real reticence to just be like guys
all of this part of the Bible, this
early part of the Bible is a pyic
against the Mesopotamian myths that they
were exposed to. The creation story
itself is taking the same imagery, the
the chaotic waters, the separating the
waters from the waters, um the formation
of people from clay, but it's taking
those things that were understood
culturally and it's resetting it in a
monotheistic framework.
>> The flood story is clearly dependent
upon earlier Mesopotamian myths, right?
But I think that you people start
getting there's progressive Christians
who accept this, but people start
getting really really scared because
then that's when things seem you can't
walk out of that exercise with a with a
belief in inherency.
>> Yeah. Well, you know, but it's not like
it's some like modern response to, you
know, modern science that we need to
reinterpret Genesis. I I've talked about
this a bunch on the show. Like people
have thought that Genesis is nonliteral
as long as Christianity has been a thing
like church fathers
>> thought that Genesis was not literal. I
mean, one of the big reasons we uh we'll
we'll have like like for for not
thinking things are are literal is just
because a lot of the time these stories
don't make sense like I I you know
there's some discussion about the
temptation in the desert in the gospels
for example and Satan takes Jesus to the
the top of the mountain and says and
shows him the whole world right yeah we
are going to get on that he he says um >> like
>> like
>> essentially that you can see the whole
world and
>> early Christian early Christians looked
at the story and thought, well, you
can't see the entire world from the top
of a mountain.
>> Even if the world is flat, you couldn't
see all of it.
>> That's not possible. So, this story must
be some kind of metaphor. And it was as
easy as that, right? Like biblical
literalism of the kind that thinks that,
you know, the earth is 6,000 years old
and Adam and Eve were well, maybe maybe
not in the Adam and Eve case, but
certainly in in terms of like the
creation narrative and stuff like that,
it's a relatively like modern phenomenon
to be like, "No, no, this is like a
literal account of what happened." Yeah.
Like so many Christians throughout
history, not just I just want to
clarify, not just like in the modern day
in response to science. Oh, let's
reinterpret Genesis.
>> Yeah. That was just a given
>> for a very very long time. Yeah. And so yeah, uh when you say embrace truth,
yeah, uh when you say embrace truth, you're talking here mostly about
you're talking here mostly about evolution. And
evolution. And >> I think I'm talking about you. We could
>> I think I'm talking about you. We could have a whole discussion about the
have a whole discussion about the historical critical method of looking at
historical critical method of looking at the Bible. Uh, and again, this gets very
the Bible. Uh, and again, this gets very it gets dicey because it feels like the
it gets dicey because it feels like the other side of the coin of the embrace
other side of the coin of the embrace faith that we talked about, right? And I
faith that we talked about, right? And I and I think that if you're a Christian,
and I think that if you're a Christian, you're holding these two things. If
you're holding these two things. If you're a thoughtful Christian, you're
you're a thoughtful Christian, you're holding these two things in tention
holding these two things in tention >> because you've got I have faith about
>> because you've got I have faith about the resurrection and my relationship
the resurrection and my relationship with Jesus and the things that are power
with Jesus and the things that are power of God that I can't have historical
of God that I can't have historical insight into. But
insight into. But >> evolution, you have a lot of evidentiary
>> evolution, you have a lot of evidentiary uh insight into, right? We we we can
uh insight into, right? We we we can know we can know kind of beyond a shadow
know we can know kind of beyond a shadow of a doubt. But there's also things that
of a doubt. But there's also things that we can know about the Bible. Like
we can know about the Bible. Like talking about Genesis, well, it's pretty
talking about Genesis, well, it's pretty clear that there's two accounts of
clear that there's two accounts of creation in Genesis from two different
creation in Genesis from two different sources
sources >> that whoever put the Bible together
>> that whoever put the Bible together decided that even though they were
decided that even though they were contradictory in some ways about the
contradictory in some ways about the order of creation, the emphasis, the the
order of creation, the emphasis, the the name of God, and these things that these
name of God, and these things that these two theological perspectives were
two theological perspectives were important to include.
important to include. So, do you have to take the edges off
So, do you have to take the edges off and insist that it's one voice and that
and insist that it's one voice and that Moses wrote it? Or can you be like, "No,
Moses wrote it? Or can you be like, "No, for some reason God decided to have
for some reason God decided to have these disperate accounts in his word
these disperate accounts in his word that may be different than you actually
that may be different than you actually think about." Or if you talk if you when
think about." Or if you talk if you when you talk about prophecy, like you've got
you talk about prophecy, like you've got examples of Matthew especially because
examples of Matthew especially because he loved to do this essentially
he loved to do this essentially inventing things that no other gospel
inventing things that no other gospel has that no there's no historical
has that no there's no historical records of to fulfill Old Testament
records of to fulfill Old Testament prophecy, right? Yeah,
prophecy, right? Yeah, >> you know, the the the best example of
>> you know, the the the best example of this um is when he talks about Jesus
this um is when he talks about Jesus having to flee to Egypt
having to flee to Egypt >> to escape Herod's massacre.
>> to escape Herod's massacre. >> And it and those it fulfills two
>> And it and those it fulfills two prophecies. One, out of Egypt, I'll call
prophecies. One, out of Egypt, I'll call my son. And the other one is the Rachel
my son. And the other one is the Rachel is weeping for her children, which was a
is weeping for her children, which was a reference to the massacre. Well, there's
reference to the massacre. Well, there's no massacre of Herod in any extra
no massacre of Herod in any extra biblical writings. There's no massacre
biblical writings. There's no massacre of Herod in any other uh parts of the
of Herod in any other uh parts of the Bible. So he invented the best
Bible. So he invented the best conclusion is that he invented a
conclusion is that he invented a massacre so he could invent a fleeing to
massacre so he could invent a fleeing to Egypt so he could get a two for one
Egypt so he could get a two for one fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.
fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. >> That's the most reasonable conclusion
>> That's the most reasonable conclusion about that. And I think that does that
about that. And I think that does that mean that all of Christianity falls
mean that all of Christianity falls apart if you believe that Matthew was
apart if you believe that Matthew was sort of like taking liberties with Old
sort of like taking liberties with Old Testament prophecy? I don't think so.
Testament prophecy? I don't think so. There's plenty of Christians who accept
There's plenty of Christians who accept that critical scholarship and are still
that critical scholarship and are still Christians. That's I this embracing
Christians. That's I this embracing truth can go. It gets dicey for sure.
truth can go. It gets dicey for sure. >> Uh but I just think that when you've got
>> Uh but I just think that when you've got really thoughtful people who are looking
really thoughtful people who are looking at the stuff that you're saying and
at the stuff that you're saying and they're looking at something as evident
they're looking at something as evident as evolution, but then they're getting
as evolution, but then they're getting into this historical critical
into this historical critical >> scholarship and they're like, "These
>> scholarship and they're like, "These guys have a lot of points."
guys have a lot of points." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> You you can just put the blinders on and
>> You you can just put the blinders on and just be like, "I'm going to believe. I'm
just be like, "I'm going to believe. I'm going to believe. I'm going to believe."
going to believe. I'm going to believe." quiet, quiet, quiet. Or you can be like,
quiet, quiet, quiet. Or you can be like, I'm gonna go into this unafraid
I'm gonna go into this unafraid >> and just if something seems to be true,
>> and just if something seems to be true, I'm going to accept it.
I'm going to accept it. >> I think there's a there's a very
>> I think there's a there's a very thoughtful kind of Christianity which
thoughtful kind of Christianity which like, okay, there's nothing in principle
like, okay, there's nothing in principle that stops you from saying I believe in
that stops you from saying I believe in the resurrection. I believe in Jesus. I
the resurrection. I believe in Jesus. I believe in his miracles. But when
believe in his miracles. But when someone says, did you know that like
someone says, did you know that like this particular passage, most scholars
this particular passage, most scholars think it was added in later, it was an
think it was added in later, it was an interpolation that you go like, "Oh,
interpolation that you go like, "Oh, okay. Okay. Well, then I don't believe
okay. Okay. Well, then I don't believe he did that. And and that's it. And you
he did that. And and that's it. And you just you just accept it and just move
just you just accept it and just move on. There is a version of of Christian
on. There is a version of of Christian belief that does that. Interestingly,
belief that does that. Interestingly, >> man, one of the one of my biggest gripes
>> man, one of the one of my biggest gripes is that I try to be very very nice to my
is that I try to be very very nice to my my Christian listeners. I'm very
my Christian listeners. I'm very grateful for them. I have wonderful
grateful for them. I have wonderful conversations with Christians. I'm
conversations with Christians. I'm deeply interested in Christianity. But
deeply interested in Christianity. But people on the internet keep saying that
people on the internet keep saying that I'm about to convert. [laughter] And
I'm about to convert. [laughter] And it's because for me it's just the lowest
it's because for me it's just the lowest bar in the history of intellectual
bar in the history of intellectual thought that me not saying to people,
thought that me not saying to people, you know, they're a bunch of idiots and
you know, they're a bunch of idiots and they've got absolutely nothing going for
they've got absolutely nothing going for them. The only way that can possibly be
them. The only way that can possibly be explained that I'm actually listening to
explained that I'm actually listening to them and hearing them out and going,
them and hearing them out and going, "That's really interesting." Actually,
"That's really interesting." Actually, it can only be because I'm about to
it can only be because I'm about to convert to Christianity. And man, it
convert to Christianity. And man, it gets on my nerves because people do it
gets on my nerves because people do it on um like YouTube shorts. There's this
on um like YouTube shorts. There's this one YouTube short of me which people
one YouTube short of me which people keep telling me about because they see
keep telling me about because they see it on their feed that someone made and
it on their feed that someone made and it's like me speaking on a podcast and
it's like me speaking on a podcast and they put that music in the background
they put that music in the background seriously
seriously all that kind of stuff. And I'm saying
all that kind of stuff. And I'm saying like you know there's the story of Jesus
like you know there's the story of Jesus where he comes across the woman caught
where he comes across the woman caught in adultery and you know they say you
in adultery and you know they say you know the law says that we should stone
know the law says that we should stone him and he says that he who is without
him and he says that he who is without sin cast the first stone and it's just I
sin cast the first stone and it's just I mean it's just it's so based it's so
mean it's just it's so based it's so brilliant. It's just a perfect
brilliant. It's just a perfect encapsulation of the of the ethic of
encapsulation of the of the ethic of Jesus and the real ends.
Jesus and the real ends. >> If you go and look at the podcast, the
>> If you go and look at the podcast, the very next words out of my mouth are,
very next words out of my mouth are, "But of course, most scholars believe
"But of course, most scholars believe that this was a later interpolation. It
that this was a later interpolation. It wasn't originally in the Bible." And so,
wasn't originally in the Bible." And so, you know, it didn't really happen,
you know, it didn't really happen, right? That's why I was talking about
right? That's why I was talking about it.
it. >> It doesn't matter, brother. The Lord is
>> It doesn't matter, brother. The Lord is drawing you down.
drawing you down. >> And you know what? The person Do you
>> And you know what? The person Do you know what? The person who made that real
know what? The person who made that real knows that's the next thing I said. They
knows that's the next thing I said. They know that.
know that. >> Of course, cuz they had to edit it
>> Of course, cuz they had to edit it >> and they put the music and [laughter]
>> and they put the music and [laughter] everything. I'm just like, "Come, come
everything. I'm just like, "Come, come on, man. It's just it's
on, man. It's just it's >> So, as we were talking about, I've
>> So, as we were talking about, I've started my own YouTube channel. After 20
started my own YouTube channel. After 20 years on YouTube, I've decided to start
years on YouTube, I've decided to start my own channel.
my own channel. >> Yes, we'll put that down in the
>> Yes, we'll put that down in the description.
description. >> But I made I'm I don't know how often
>> But I made I'm I don't know how often I'm going to do videos on there, but
I'm going to do videos on there, but because we're stopping the podcast, it's
because we're stopping the podcast, it's going to be the place that I talk about
going to be the place that I talk about this type of stuff,
this type of stuff, >> maybe other stuff as well,
>> maybe other stuff as well, >> but I made this one video that was about
>> but I made this one video that was about uh why I don't fear hell. And then, oh,
uh why I don't fear hell. And then, oh, I got caught up in the Christian
I got caught up in the Christian algorithm real fast just cuz it was a
algorithm real fast just cuz it was a new channel and they were like, "Who's
new channel and they were like, "Who's interested in this?"
interested in this?" >> And I I people comment, a lot of
>> And I I people comment, a lot of Christians comment on my stuff anytime I
Christians comment on my stuff anytime I talk about this stuff.
talk about this stuff. >> But this was like a new level. And there
>> But this was like a new level. And there was like this one night where like
was like this one night where like comments were coming in every like
comments were coming in every like couple of seconds cuz it was like it
couple of seconds cuz it was like it really hit the algorithm and so many of
really hit the algorithm and so many of the comments were like, "Well, this is
the comments were like, "Well, this is evidence that you do fear hell and that
evidence that you do fear hell and that you are being drawn back." M
you are being drawn back." M >> and again it is it is difficult to not
>> and again it is it is difficult to not be like
be like >> to not get frustrated about that.
>> to not get frustrated about that. >> The most frustrating thing is it's not
>> The most frustrating thing is it's not like you're making a video saying
like you're making a video saying Christianity is stupid and I'm an
Christianity is stupid and I'm an atheist and then a bunch of Christians
atheist and then a bunch of Christians saying like oh well you know you you you
saying like oh well you know you you you should be afraid of hell. is that you're
should be afraid of hell. is that you're quite thoughtfully saying, you know,
quite thoughtfully saying, you know, like here's some considerations and
like here's some considerations and Christianity's got this going for it and
Christianity's got this going for it and this is what I think and then people are
this is what I think and then people are saying, you know, you should be you
saying, you know, you should be you should be afraid of hell cuz it's, you
should be afraid of hell cuz it's, you know, it's it's coming for you. It's
know, it's it's coming for you. It's like we're trying our best here. Um,
like we're trying our best here. Um, >> yeah. I mean, this this podcast alone
>> yeah. I mean, this this podcast alone will be used as evidence that the Lord
will be used as evidence that the Lord is drawing both of us back. Here we are
is drawing both of us back. Here we are with an open Bible.
with an open Bible. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Here's the thing. You know what? If the
>> Here's the thing. You know what? If the Lord is drawing me back, it's I don't
Lord is drawing me back, it's I don't have a I don't have a I'm not resistant
have a I don't have a I'm not resistant to that. by me.
to that. by me. >> Not it's like I don't I'm not that
>> Not it's like I don't I'm not that that's not my disposition as much as I'm
that's not my disposition as much as I'm told that that's my dis. I think the
told that that's my dis. I think the thing that's offensive is that
thing that's offensive is that >> assuming to know the heart of someone
>> assuming to know the heart of someone else is that that that's a thing that's
else is that that that's a thing that's sort of like well
sort of like well >> you know why I did this. You know what
>> you know why I did this. You know what you know all my motivations. You know
you know all my motivations. You know what my life is like. You know what my
what my life is like. You know what my relationships are like. Your comment
relationships are like. Your comment seems to
seems to >> imply that.
>> imply that. >> I don't mind it exactly, but it's just
>> I don't mind it exactly, but it's just that it's so like where you just said
that it's so like where you just said then something like if the Lord is
then something like if the Lord is drawing me back then then I'm here for
drawing me back then then I'm here for it. Like there you go, that's your clip
it. Like there you go, that's your clip that goes on a YouTube reel. [laughter]
that goes on a YouTube reel. [laughter] Put it in black and white and and but
Put it in black and white and and but people people do that and when they do
people people do that and when they do that like
that like >> it's it's not I don't mind people saying
>> it's it's not I don't mind people saying like you know it seems Alex you're
like you know it seems Alex you're really interested in this like do you
really interested in this like do you think you you know are you becoming more
think you you know are you becoming more Christian? I'm just going to tell them
Christian? I'm just going to tell them honestly like you know probably not like
honestly like you know probably not like but it's it's the sort of it's the
but it's it's the sort of it's the people who are quite intentionally like
people who are quite intentionally like editing to
editing to >> it's all about engagement man.
>> it's all about engagement man. >> Yeah. It's all about That's why that's
>> Yeah. It's all about That's why that's why I welcome these comments because as
why I welcome these comments because as those comments about how I should fear
those comments about how I should fear hell and how the Lord is drawing me back
hell and how the Lord is drawing me back were coming in every second. I was like,
were coming in every second. I was like, "Well, this video might do okay."
"Well, this video might do okay." >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I'd recommend
>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I'd recommend people watch that as well. I mean, I've
people watch that as well. I mean, I've I've talked about fear of hell. It's
I've talked about fear of hell. It's been years since I've spoken about it as
been years since I've spoken about it as well. I I don't spend that much time
well. I I don't spend that much time thinking about hell these days. Um but
thinking about hell these days. Um but it's something that a lot of people,
it's something that a lot of people, especially if they're sort of fresh out
especially if they're sort of fresh out of a religious tradition,
of a religious tradition, >> it it something that people are sticks
>> it it something that people are sticks around
around >> can can be afraid of. So, you've got a
>> can can be afraid of. So, you've got a great video on that and you reference a
great video on that and you reference a few videos in that video.
few videos in that video. >> Yeah, I really reference the ones that
>> Yeah, I really reference the ones that you you should watch cuz I don't go very
you you should watch cuz I don't go very deep.
deep. >> Yeah. Like GM Skeptic went to like
>> Yeah. Like GM Skeptic went to like Jerusalem to investigate, you know, the
Jerusalem to investigate, you know, the origins of hell. It's some really
origins of hell. It's some really interesting.
interesting. >> There's people who do deeper dives.
>> There's people who do deeper dives. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um Okay. But let's get to the the the
>> Um Okay. But let's get to the the the final point, which is embrace Jesus.
final point, which is embrace Jesus. >> Yes. We've had embrace faith, embrace
>> Yes. We've had embrace faith, embrace truth,
truth, >> embrace Jesus.
>> embrace Jesus. >> Embrace Jesus in that order. [laughter]
>> Embrace Jesus in that order. [laughter] >> Uh in in no particular order, this is
>> Uh in in no particular order, this is just how it came to me.
just how it came to me. >> Um
>> Um I the thing here is that this is really
I the thing here is that this is really about the cultural moment that we're
about the cultural moment that we're having right now.
having right now. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And I think that there are
>> And I think that there are a lot of things that are happening in
a lot of things that are happening in the church that are inconsistent with
the church that are inconsistent with the way Jesus spoke about things
the way Jesus spoke about things >> and are and by definition are not
>> and are and by definition are not biblical. And I think that this is one
biblical. And I think that this is one of the reasons that the church is
of the reasons that the church is growing a little bit right now. There
growing a little bit right now. There there's a political side to this.
there's a political side to this. I think that the
I think that the sort of
sort of dogged pursuit of political power and
dogged pursuit of political power and the consolidation of political power,
the consolidation of political power, especially in the United States by
especially in the United States by Christians, is one of the biggest
Christians, is one of the biggest betrayals of the teachings of Jesus.
betrayals of the teachings of Jesus. And I think that it has been
And I think that it has been disillusioning to a lot of Christians.
disillusioning to a lot of Christians. Interestingly, my entire deconstruction
Interestingly, my entire deconstruction happened outside of that and kind of now
happened outside of that and kind of now I was a conservative Christian. I voted
I was a conservative Christian. I voted Republican because of abortion probably
Republican because of abortion probably alone. Um,
alone. Um, but the political landscape has changed
but the political landscape has changed a lot and at this point
a lot and at this point the kind of the the embrace of the
the kind of the the embrace of the pursuit of political power and talking
pursuit of political power and talking about it and how it's spreading to more
about it and how it's spreading to more and more Christians.
and more Christians. I feel like this is a new level. I don't
I feel like this is a new level. I don't think this is something that I
think this is something that I experienced, you know, 15 years ago when
experienced, you know, 15 years ago when I was deconstructing.
I was deconstructing. Um, so I want to talk a little bit about
Um, so I want to talk a little bit about what Jesus has to say about this or, you
what Jesus has to say about this or, you know, what the Bible has to say about
know, what the Bible has to say about this and then we can kind of talk about
this and then we can kind of talk about why why I think this is such a problem.
why why I think this is such a problem. Um,
Um, let's start
in when Jesus is before Pilate, right? So, this is just kind of setting the
So, this is just kind of setting the stage. You've got Jesus before Pilate in
stage. You've got Jesus before Pilate in John 18.
John 18. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And um he essentially says, you know, P
>> And um he essentially says, you know, P well Pilate is basically asking him
well Pilate is basically asking him like, you know, well, let me just say
like, you know, well, let me just say it. Let me just read it. So Pilate
it. Let me just read it. So Pilate entered his headquarters again and
entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, "Are you
called Jesus and said to him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus answered,
the king of the Jews?" Jesus answered, "Do you say this of your own accord, or
"Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?"
did others say it to you about me?" Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own
Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have
nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you
delivered you over to me. What have you done?" And Jesus answered, "My kingdom
done?" And Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were
is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have
of this world, my servants would have been fighting that I might not be
been fighting that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my
delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from this world."
kingdom is not from this world." >> So again, here we are. Jesus is having
>> So again, here we are. Jesus is having this this
this this moment where he is taken in and
moment where he is taken in and he's being taken in by the political
he's being taken in by the political forces that existed at that time where
forces that existed at that time where they were kind of executing the will of
they were kind of executing the will of God to literally execute him. And what
God to literally execute him. And what did he do? He said, he took that
did he do? He said, he took that opportunity to say, "My kingdom, this is
opportunity to say, "My kingdom, this is not about th this worldly kingdom that
not about th this worldly kingdom that you're talking about. My kingdom is not
you're talking about. My kingdom is not of this world."
of this world." >> And if it were, my servants would be
>> And if it were, my servants would be fighting.
fighting. >> They'd be doing something about it right
>> They'd be doing something about it right now. They would be in here doing
now. They would be in here doing something about it. The reason that they
something about it. The reason that they are not resistant, in fact, earlier when
are not resistant, in fact, earlier when Peter cuts off the ear,
Peter cuts off the ear, >> he's like, "Just no." He puts it back
>> he's like, "Just no." He puts it back on. You know, he's like, "No, no, that's
on. You know, he's like, "No, no, that's not what we're doing. We're not
not what we're doing. We're not fighting. We're not here to fight."
fighting. We're not here to fight." >> You don't get that anywhere from Jesus,
>> You don't get that anywhere from Jesus, right? Well, you get that a little bit
right? Well, you get that a little bit from Israel, which I think is one of the
from Israel, which I think is one of the reasons that that I think Christian
reasons that that I think Christian nationalism is a little bit confused
nationalism is a little bit confused about trying to be basically be the
about trying to be basically be the nation of Israel today. It's like it's a
nation of Israel today. It's like it's a little complicated, but let's just talk
little complicated, but let's just talk about Jesus
about Jesus >> and the imagery there of Trump with
>> and the imagery there of Trump with literally a a broken ear shouting fight.
literally a a broken ear shouting fight. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [laughter]
>> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [laughter] >> Quite stark contrast,
>> Quite stark contrast, >> right? But it gets I think it gets even
>> right? But it gets I think it gets even more explicit. So this is the famous
more explicit. So this is the famous passage where the Pharisees try to trap
passage where the Pharisees try to trap Jesus in the question about taxes.
Jesus in the question about taxes. >> Um
>> Um so uh they had been giving him a number
so uh they had been giving him a number of different challenges to to catch him,
of different challenges to to catch him, right? And so uh we we'll just kind of
right? And so uh we we'll just kind of cover this because I can remember the
cover this because I can remember the details. So you know they had this the
details. So you know they had this the Pharisees have this idea to come and ask
Pharisees have this idea to come and ask Jesus if they should pay taxes to
Jesus if they should pay taxes to Caesar. And the reason that they thought
Caesar. And the reason that they thought that this was a trap is because if he's
that this was a trap is because if he's supposed to be the Messiah, at least as
supposed to be the Messiah, at least as they understand it, he's supposed to be
they understand it, he's supposed to be the one delivering them from this Roman
the one delivering them from this Roman rule. So if he's like saying, "Yeah, we
rule. So if he's like saying, "Yeah, we should give money to our oppressors."
should give money to our oppressors." Not a very good Messiah according to
Not a very good Messiah according to their perspective. And if he says,
their perspective. And if he says, >> "Yeah, no, we shouldn't pay taxes." Then
>> "Yeah, no, we shouldn't pay taxes." Then then they report him and get him
then they report him and get him delivered to the Romans.
delivered to the Romans. >> Right? So this was like a nice setup.
>> Right? So this was like a nice setup. And when they do this, they say, "Should
And when they do this, they say, "Should we pay taxes?" to Caesar. He's like,
we pay taxes?" to Caesar. He's like, "Grab me a daenerius. Grab me a coin."
"Grab me a daenerius. Grab me a coin." And then he takes it and he says, "Who
And then he takes it and he says, "Who is this on the coin?" And they say,
is this on the coin?" And they say, "Caesar." And he says, "Render to Caesar
"Caesar." And he says, "Render to Caesar what is Caesars's and to God what is
what is Caesars's and to God what is God's." Why is this so important? And
God's." Why is this so important? And why is this so relevant to the current
why is this so relevant to the current situation? Notice he didn't say anything
situation? Notice he didn't say anything like, "See this coin?
like, "See this coin? It should say in Yahweh we trust on it."
It should say in Yahweh we trust on it." M
M >> that's the battle that we should be
>> that's the battle that we should be fighting. We should be fighting to get
fighting. We should be fighting to get the kingdom that is oppressing us or the
the kingdom that is oppressing us or the kingdom of this world to represent
kingdom of this world to represent God. He's basically saying this is
God. He's basically saying this is irrelevant to my mission. Yeah. Pay
irrelevant to my mission. Yeah. Pay taxes to Caesar. That's a completely
taxes to Caesar. That's a completely different thing. This embrace of
different thing. This embrace of political power and thinking that that
political power and thinking that that is the answer. That's how we bring about
is the answer. That's how we bring about the kingdom of God. It is a complete
the kingdom of God. It is a complete misunderstanding of what Jesus was
misunderstanding of what Jesus was talking about.
talking about. >> Um, and I do think it's wild because you
>> Um, and I do think it's wild because you the whole in you know, you know, the in
the whole in you know, you know, the in God we trust on the American money like
God we trust on the American money like I that was it's a pretty recent
I that was it's a pretty recent innovation. I can't remember
innovation. I can't remember >> cold war thing.
>> cold war thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I think I I can't
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I think I I can't remember exactly when it
remember exactly when it >> Oh, [laughter]
look. That's water. >> Yeah. All right. All right.
>> Yeah. All right. All right. >> Right onto the Bible. You know, I only
>> Right onto the Bible. You know, I only did that to make you feel welcome.
did that to make you feel welcome. [laughter]
Okay, where were we? >> Everything's cleaned up. You know, my
>> Everything's cleaned up. You know, my Bible's a little bit wet. No worse.
Bible's a little bit wet. No worse. Okay.
Okay. >> Holy holy water now on the table.
>> Holy holy water now on the table. >> So, I think that this this last passage
>> So, I think that this this last passage is the one that is the most um
is the one that is the most um informative about this and you've talked
informative about this and you've talked about it a moment ago,
about it a moment ago, >> the temptation of Jesus. And of course,
>> the temptation of Jesus. And of course, he's out there in the the wilderness for
he's out there in the the wilderness for 40 days.
40 days. >> And so, there's the three temptations
>> And so, there's the three temptations from the devil. The first being, you
from the devil. The first being, you know, eat some turns these stones into
know, eat some turns these stones into bread. Uh the next one being throw
bread. Uh the next one being throw yourself off of this and the angels will
yourself off of this and the angels will save you. And then the third one being
save you. And then the third one being going up to the top of the mountain
going up to the top of the mountain saying look at all the kingdoms of the
saying look at all the kingdoms of the world. I will give you all of this if
world. I will give you all of this if you will just bow down and worship me.
you will just bow down and worship me. And of course Jesus says be gone Satan.
And of course Jesus says be gone Satan. You know listen what does it say exactly
You know listen what does it say exactly in the ESV? He says
in the ESV? He says >> worship God and serve him alone.
>> worship God and serve him alone. >> Yeah. Be gone, Satan, for it is written,
>> Yeah. Be gone, Satan, for it is written, you shall worship the Lord your God and
you shall worship the Lord your God and serve, and only him so shall you serve.
serve, and only him so shall you serve. Again, it's thieves.
Again, it's thieves. >> Yeah. And interestingly, it's not that's
>> Yeah. And interestingly, it's not that's not actually written. There's no there
not actually written. There's no there Jesus is like slightly rewarding the
Jesus is like slightly rewarding the passage he's trying the in in the Old
passage he's trying the in in the Old Testament, the passage is something like
Testament, the passage is something like um it's something like fear. I think
um it's something like fear. I think it's fear God and serve him only or
it's fear God and serve him only or something like that. It doesn't use the
something like that. It doesn't use the word worship, which is obviously it's,
word worship, which is obviously it's, you know, Greek and Hebrew, but he's not
you know, Greek and Hebrew, but he's not actually quoting it quite correctly
actually quoting it quite correctly there, which is interesting. Um,
there, which is interesting. Um, >> yeah, it is.
>> yeah, it is. >> Side note, footnote.
>> Side note, footnote. >> Yeah, footnote.
>> Yeah, footnote. >> Continue.
>> Continue. >> So,
>> So, this to me, this is pretty wild
this to me, this is pretty wild considering the state of the current
considering the state of the current American church. M
American church. M >> um
>> um because there's a lot going on here
because there's a lot going on here theologically of course, but the one
theologically of course, but the one opportunity that
opportunity that Jesus has to make a commentary about
Jesus has to make a commentary about embracing political power over the
embracing political power over the kingdom or the kingdoms of this world is
kingdom or the kingdoms of this world is presented as a temptation of Satan.
presented as a temptation of Satan. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter] >> This is presented as a temptation of
>> This is presented as a temptation of Satan to fall for this. We've got to be
Satan to fall for this. We've got to be we've got to be in control of the the
we've got to be in control of the the the kingdoms of the world. Does Jesus
the kingdoms of the world. Does Jesus say, "Well, okay, maybe you're in charge
say, "Well, okay, maybe you're in charge right now, but you just wait until a few
right now, but you just wait until a few of my followers are are are in
of my followers are are are in government, or you you wait until we're
government, or you you wait until we're in charge." Again, he says, "It's not
in charge." Again, he says, "It's not about that. We are operating on a
about that. We are operating on a different plane." And it just blows my
different plane." And it just blows my mind that we've gotten to this place
mind that we've gotten to this place where this seems to be the way that the
where this seems to be the way that the kingdom of God is going to be
kingdom of God is going to be established is by infiltrating and
established is by infiltrating and taking over the government. And I'm not
taking over the government. And I'm not just saying that it's not a good idea
just saying that it's not a good idea from a Christian perspective. I'm saying
from a Christian perspective. I'm saying it is forbidden.
it is forbidden. >> I'm saying that it is explicitly called
>> I'm saying that it is explicitly called out as something that will take you away
out as something that will take you away from actually doing the work of God.
from actually doing the work of God. >> And I think it's interesting. I think
>> And I think it's interesting. I think it's worth noting that the more that
it's worth noting that the more that Christians have embraced this pursuit of
Christians have embraced this pursuit of political power, the more they have
political power, the more they have embraced political leadership that looks
embraced political leadership that looks a lot less like Jesus and a lot more
a lot less like Jesus and a lot more like the devil himself.
like the devil himself. [laughter]
[laughter] >> Is that not crazy?
>> Is that not crazy? >> Yeah, I think it's I think it's true,
>> Yeah, I think it's I think it's true, but it's also it's also maybe it's a bit
but it's also it's also maybe it's a bit easy to say like you know that if you
easy to say like you know that if you pursue political power, you begin sort
pursue political power, you begin sort of betray principles. And some people
of betray principles. And some people will listen to this and I think there
will listen to this and I think there are two things which people will say in
are two things which people will say in response to this. One thing is they'll
response to this. One thing is they'll say okay but if you look at the Old
say okay but if you look at the Old Testament you know God is constantly
Testament you know God is constantly installing literal political kings.
installing literal political kings. There are at least some contexts in
There are at least some contexts in which God thought that it was necessary
which God thought that it was necessary to have you know his his rulers on
to have you know his his rulers on earth. I think I know what I would say
earth. I think I know what I would say in response to that. I wonder what you
in response to that. I wonder what you would say. And the second thing is then
would say. And the second thing is then okay I'm a I'm a Christian. I'm sat at
okay I'm a I'm a Christian. I'm sat at home. I'm listening to this. Don't clip
home. I'm listening to this. Don't clip that either. Um, and I would like to
that either. Um, and I would like to know what to do then because I care
know what to do then because I care about what's happening in my country and
about what's happening in my country and I I want to vote for somebody who shares
I I want to vote for somebody who shares my values, but am I supposed to am I
my values, but am I supposed to am I supposed to look at anybody who says I'm
supposed to look at anybody who says I'm a Christian and I'm running on Christian
a Christian and I'm running on Christian motivations and say no no no I'm not
motivations and say no no no I'm not going to vote for you because you know
going to vote for you because you know that can't be whereas I feel like I want
that can't be whereas I feel like I want someone who's Christian to you know run
someone who's Christian to you know run my like what can they actually do? Those
my like what can they actually do? Those are good questions to to answer the
are good questions to to answer the first. I think that the kingdom of
first. I think that the kingdom of Israel of which was, you know, sort of
Israel of which was, you know, sort of preparing the way for the Messiah that
preparing the way for the Messiah that he comes out of, that's a different
he comes out of, that's a different thing. That's not America. That's, you
thing. That's not America. That's, you know, that that doesn't apply to these
know, that that doesn't apply to these kingdoms. That's a that's a different
kingdoms. That's a that's a different thing. I don't think there's a
thing. I don't think there's a theological justification for applying
theological justification for applying principles of the way that God was
principles of the way that God was establishing and upholding his nation
establishing and upholding his nation for his people
for his people >> and then trying to apply that even to
>> and then trying to apply that even to modern day Israel or definitely to any
modern day Israel or definitely to any other kingdom. That just feels like that
other kingdom. That just feels like that you can't you that dog won't hunt as
you can't you that dog won't hunt as they say. To the extent that we can make
they say. To the extent that we can make sense of God having like a chosen people
sense of God having like a chosen people and a chosen nation, it seems like
and a chosen nation, it seems like America despite what they think um might
America despite what they think um might not be that. But even so there is this
not be that. But even so there is this maybe please don't revoke my visa. The
maybe please don't revoke my visa. The problem that the other thing is that
problem that the other thing is that like Jesus is presented as this
like Jesus is presented as this fulfillment and sort of fulfillment of
fulfillment and sort of fulfillment of but also like in many ways like he sort
but also like in many ways like he sort of um removes the the need for certain
of um removes the the need for certain kinds of Jewish practices. So like
kinds of Jewish practices. So like there's this idea that Jesus is kind of
there's this idea that Jesus is kind of like the new Jewish temple. You know it
like the new Jewish temple. You know it used to be that you worship in this
used to be that you worship in this particular place and this is where you
particular place and this is where you meet God and now it's Jesus and Jesus is
meet God and now it's Jesus and Jesus is everywhere. Anyway, and a similar kind
everywhere. Anyway, and a similar kind of thing is happening here with like
of thing is happening here with like authority. I mean, the the Jewish
authority. I mean, the the Jewish kingdom was waiting for the Messiah who
kingdom was waiting for the Messiah who would be, you know, their ultimate king.
would be, you know, their ultimate king. And when the ultimate king comes,
And when the ultimate king comes, >> he's not a political leader. He is the
>> he's not a political leader. He is the opposite of political leader. So, I
opposite of political leader. So, I think that the extent to which this is
think that the extent to which this is specifically a problem, like if
specifically a problem, like if somebody's listening, in other words,
somebody's listening, in other words, and says, "Oh, okay. Yeah, but you know,
and says, "Oh, okay. Yeah, but you know, Rhett doesn't understand that, you know,
Rhett doesn't understand that, you know, that in the Old Testament political
that in the Old Testament political power was really important." This is
power was really important." This is just the problem of the relationship of
just the problem of the relationship of the Old Testament to the New Testament.
the Old Testament to the New Testament. Yeah. Because I could say the same thing
Yeah. Because I could say the same thing to a Christian, like, well, if your
to a Christian, like, well, if your Jesus is doing this or that or that or
Jesus is doing this or that or that or that,
that, >> then what about in the Old Testament
>> then what about in the Old Testament where God's commanding this that that or
where God's commanding this that that or that or this thing you're supposed to do
that or this thing you're supposed to do that you're no longer supposed to do or
that you're no longer supposed to do or whatever, it's just the same problem um
whatever, it's just the same problem um revisited. As long as a Christian is
revisited. As long as a Christian is willing to say that, yeah, Jesus changed
willing to say that, yeah, Jesus changed changed the nature of God's relationship
changed the nature of God's relationship with Earth.
with Earth. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly. >> The same things here. But okay, that's
>> The same things here. But okay, that's sort of out of the way.
sort of out of the way. >> So, what does a Christian do?
>> So, what does a Christian do? >> What does a Christian do?
>> What does a Christian do? >> So, I think this is a I think it's a
>> So, I think this is a I think it's a great question. uh because I would say
great question. uh because I would say the extreme application of this
the extreme application of this perspective is abstaining from political
perspective is abstaining from political involvement at all and there are
involvement at all and there are denominations that do that.
denominations that do that. >> Um and you have to respect that. Um this
>> Um and you have to respect that. Um this is a bit of again there's so many layers
is a bit of again there's so many layers of this. There's a bit of a conundrum
of this. There's a bit of a conundrum considering that I don't think that any
considering that I don't think that any of the people who were reading this at
of the people who were reading this at the time thought that in the year 2025
the time thought that in the year 2025 the world would still be around.
the world would still be around. >> That's right. Uh, so I don't think that
>> That's right. Uh, so I don't think that they envision 2,000 years of more
they envision 2,000 years of more kingdoms in in in what we have here. So
kingdoms in in in what we have here. So we find ourselves in a situation that
we find ourselves in a situation that maybe some of this philosophy doesn't
maybe some of this philosophy doesn't specifically apply
specifically apply >> because you know they were selling all
>> because you know they were selling all their stuff not because they were
their stuff not because they were communists but because they thought
communists but because they thought Yeah. Right.
Yeah. Right. um it becomes a bit easier to say like
um it becomes a bit easier to say like who cares about the government whatever
who cares about the government whatever that the world is about to end which
that the world is about to end which makes it a bit complicated because for a
makes it a bit complicated because for a Christian they kind of have to interpret
Christian they kind of have to interpret this not them not believing the world's
this not them not believing the world's about to end because again so that so
about to end because again so that so I'm going with that I'm trying I'm just
I'm going with that I'm trying I'm just saying be I believe that they thought
saying be I believe that they thought that Jesus was coming back and he didn't
that Jesus was coming back and he didn't >> but as a Christian you do you believe
>> but as a Christian you do you believe that he that he wasn't intending that
that he that he wasn't intending that and that he knew that the world will
and that he knew that the world will still still be around in 2025. What I'm
still still be around in 2025. What I'm saying is that it is a temptation
saying is that it is a temptation because you start believing that the
because you start believing that the only way to get what God wants is for
only way to get what God wants is for you to do it for him through human
you to do it for him through human means. And I think that ultimately when
means. And I think that ultimately when you feel like the people in power
you feel like the people in power politically have to represent your
politically have to represent your worldview, it indicates that you're
worldview, it indicates that you're fearful that if that wasn't the case
fearful that if that wasn't the case that God couldn't do what he needed to
that God couldn't do what he needed to do. And so I think this is this is a
do. And so I think this is this is a higher calling to a level of spirit sp
higher calling to a level of spirit sp spirituality and commitment to the
spirituality and commitment to the kingdom that does I think that if you
kingdom that does I think that if you follow this
follow this wholeheartedly
wholeheartedly I think it means that I'm not saying you
I think it means that I'm not saying you don't vote but I think that the idea
don't vote but I think that the idea that the answer is to install Christians
that the answer is to install Christians into political office and that's where
into political office and that's where your hope lies and to work very
your hope lies and to work very tirelessly for that that's just it's not
tirelessly for that that's just it's not biblical and I think ultimately
biblical and I think ultimately I don't think you can hold on to
I don't think you can hold on to political power
political power and Jesus at the same time. I think that
and Jesus at the same time. I think that if you're going to hold on to Jesus and
if you're going to hold on to Jesus and you're holding on to to this world,
you're holding on to to this world, you've kind of got to drop that pursuit
you've kind of got to drop that pursuit in the same way. And the crazy thing
in the same way. And the crazy thing that happens as a result of this is you
that happens as a result of this is you end up align like I said, you end up
end up align like I said, you end up aligning yourselves with people who do
aligning yourselves with people who do not represent
not represent um you know this the the the fruit of
um you know this the the the fruit of the spirit that you you've got people
the spirit that you you've got people who are living in fear. I think this is
who are living in fear. I think this is another aspect of this is that so much
another aspect of this is that so much of the current political pursuit
of the current political pursuit pursuit of political power is based in
pursuit of political power is based in fear. You've got people all across the
fear. You've got people all across the United States mainlining Fox News and
United States mainlining Fox News and the like every single night. Like, give
the like every single night. Like, give it to me. Give me that stuff that makes
it to me. Give me that stuff that makes me fearful every single night. I got to
me fearful every single night. I got to be afraid of the brown people who are
be afraid of the brown people who are going to take my jobs. Or, you know, I
going to take my jobs. Or, you know, I got to be afraid of the people who are
got to be afraid of the people who are going to come take my guns. I got to be
going to come take my guns. I got to be afraid of the trans woman who might come
afraid of the trans woman who might come into my daughter's restroom. Right? And
into my daughter's restroom. Right? And and so frankly, that whole thing pisses
and so frankly, that whole thing pisses me off because I feel like an entire
me off because I feel like an entire generation has been stolen from us
generation has been stolen from us because you have what could be older,
because you have what could be older, wiser people who have perspective, but
wiser people who have perspective, but yet they have been completely captivated
yet they have been completely captivated by fear and they tap into it every
by fear and they tap into it every single night. Like that pisses me off
single night. Like that pisses me off that a generation has been stolen from
that a generation has been stolen from us.
us. >> But what if I I just this is a
>> But what if I I just this is a hypothetical. What if Christians in
hypothetical. What if Christians in America were not mostly known for
America were not mostly known for wanting to have political power and all
wanting to have political power and all of the things that come along with that
of the things that come along with that and all the fear that that is based in
and all the fear that that is based in and instead they had they were cool,
and instead they had they were cool, calm, and collected because they trusted
calm, and collected because they trusted that God was accomplishing his purpose
that God was accomplishing his purpose and they were busying themselves with
and they were busying themselves with the work of Jesus, being the hands and
the work of Jesus, being the hands and feet of Jesus, feeding the poor, caring
feet of Jesus, feeding the poor, caring for the orphan, caring for the elderly,
for the orphan, caring for the elderly, caring for the widow.
caring for the widow. It seems to me that they don't believe
It seems to me that they don't believe that that would actually do anything.
that that would actually do anything. That that that level of spiritual
That that that level of spiritual commitment to being like, I'm going to
commitment to being like, I'm going to be about the kingdom and I'm going to
be about the kingdom and I'm going to trust that God will accomplish his
trust that God will accomplish his accomplish his will through me in that.
accomplish his will through me in that. >> I just think it's a lack of faith. I
>> I just think it's a lack of faith. I think it kind of goes back, we come full
think it kind of goes back, we come full circle is that there's not a real faith
circle is that there's not a real faith that God can accomplish his purpose
that God can accomplish his purpose apart from you putting the Ten
apart from you putting the Ten Commandments up in every courthouse.
Commandments up in every courthouse. Really? Like you really think that
Really? Like you really think that that's what's going to do it? Yeah. Have
that's what's going to do it? Yeah. Have you seen that clip? I can't remember the
you seen that clip? I can't remember the I can't remember where it was. I can't
I can't remember where it was. I can't remember which like it might have been
remember which like it might have been some like state government legislature
some like state government legislature where they're sort of debating putting
where they're sort of debating putting up the ten commandments and there's this
up the ten commandments and there's this there's this guy some politician where
there's this guy some politician where he'll maybe we can play the clip. I
he'll maybe we can play the clip. I don't know. We'll check the the
don't know. We'll check the the copyright or whatever.
copyright or whatever. >> What is the fourth commandment?
>> Sabbath. >> Keep the Sabbath. was being here.
>> Keep the Sabbath. was being here. >> Part of keeping the Sabbath holy is not
>> Part of keeping the Sabbath holy is not working on the Sabbath.
working on the Sabbath. >> That is that is um Yeah.
>> That is that is um Yeah. >> What day is the Jewish Sabbath?
>> What day is the Jewish Sabbath? >> It is on Saturday.
>> It is on Saturday. >> And what day is it today?
>> And what day is it today? >> It is Saturday.
>> It is Saturday. >> Here we are.
>> Here we are. >> The Christian Sabbath is what day?
>> The Christian Sabbath is what day? >> Sunday in honor of the day that Jesus
>> Sunday in honor of the day that Jesus rose from the dead.
rose from the dead. >> And we're scheduled to give this bill a
>> And we're scheduled to give this bill a final vote on what day of the week?
final vote on what day of the week? >> It's ironic, isn't it? Would you be
>> It's ironic, isn't it? Would you be willing to postpone your bill so that
willing to postpone your bill so that we're not breaking the Ten Commandments
we're not breaking the Ten Commandments [laughter] by working on the Jewish or
[laughter] by working on the Jewish or Christian Sabbath?
Christian Sabbath? >> I love that you said that because
>> I love that you said that because >> you're saying that you'd rather tell
>> you're saying that you'd rather tell people to follow the Ten Commandments
people to follow the Ten Commandments than follow it yourself.
than follow it yourself. >> Um where the guy's like, "So, um you
>> Um where the guy's like, "So, um you want to put the the Ten Commandments
want to put the the Ten Commandments up?" And they're like, "Yeah, yeah." And
up?" And they're like, "Yeah, yeah." And he's like, "Can you just tell me, you
he's like, "Can you just tell me, you know, what are the commandments?" And
know, what are the commandments?" And one of them is is, you know, thou shalt
one of them is is, you know, thou shalt not, you know, thou shalt keep the
not, you know, thou shalt keep the Sabbath, keep it holy. And he goes, "Can
Sabbath, keep it holy. And he goes, "Can you just tell me which day is do do
you just tell me which day is do do Christians typically sort of treat as
Christians typically sort of treat as the Sabbath as like Sunday?" It's like,
the Sabbath as like Sunday?" It's like, "And um what day is it today?"
"And um what day is it today?" Okay, it's Sunday. Okay. And and which
Okay, it's Sunday. Okay. And and which which day the Jews consider the Sabbath
which day the Jews consider the Sabbath to be? Like Saturday and and which day
to be? Like Saturday and and which day did this, you know, legislation get put
did this, you know, legislation get put into motion? It was it was on Saturday,
into motion? It was it was on Saturday, right? And it's just like it's one of
right? And it's just like it's one of the funniest clips I've seen because
the funniest clips I've seen because it's just it's so easy. It's just it was
it's just it's so easy. It's just it was just such an easy move to make because
just such an easy move to make because it's so ridiculous and so
it's so ridiculous and so >> antithetical. Well, just look at what's
>> antithetical. Well, just look at what's happen. Oklahoma's probably the the best
happen. Oklahoma's probably the the best example of this. I think a a Bible in
example of this. I think a a Bible in every classroom and yeah,
every classroom and yeah, >> all this stuff. But the the real
>> all this stuff. But the the real travesty here isn't just that it's not
travesty here isn't just that it's not biblical and it's it shows a lack of of
biblical and it's it shows a lack of of faith,
faith, >> but the people who are enticing
>> but the people who are enticing Christians into this pursuit of
Christians into this pursuit of political power,
political power, >> they don't care about the kingdom of God
>> they don't care about the kingdom of God at all. They're they're using they are
at all. They're they're using they are they see Christians as a powerful
they see Christians as a powerful political group
political group >> voting block.
>> voting block. >> It's a voting block. Very powerful. And
>> It's a voting block. Very powerful. And they can cater to them. They can pander
they can cater to them. They can pander to them. And frankly, the Christians are
to them. And frankly, the Christians are eating it up. And I just think that
eating it up. And I just think that they're falling to a temptation that
they're falling to a temptation that it's worth aligning yourself with the
it's worth aligning yourself with the types of people who are currently in
types of people who are currently in charge of the Republican party. that
charge of the Republican party. that if you stopped and just thought about it
if you stopped and just thought about it a little bit, you it would you would be
a little bit, you it would you would be like, hm, is this worth it? Like you
like, hm, is this worth it? Like you don't even have if the Bible didn't
don't even have if the Bible didn't address it at all. I think you could
address it at all. I think you could come to the conclusion that you could
come to the conclusion that you could just decipher that this is not a good
just decipher that this is not a good idea to align ourselves with the type of
idea to align ourselves with the type of people and interests, you know, the
people and interests, you know, the things that are Christians are
things that are Christians are celebrating right now that just are not
celebrating right now that just are not consistent with with Jesus at all. But
consistent with with Jesus at all. But I'm just making the point that Jesus
I'm just making the point that Jesus seems to be very clear
seems to be very clear >> that this No, there's a temptation. I I
>> that this No, there's a temptation. I I get it. There's a temptation. You're
get it. There's a temptation. You're gonna want to you're going to think that
gonna want to you're going to think that you have to take over these
you have to take over these institutions, these kingdoms of the
institutions, these kingdoms of the world in order to for my will to be
world in order to for my will to be done. But I'm telling you that that's a
done. But I'm telling you that that's a temptation and you shouldn't go down
temptation and you shouldn't go down that that road. I think people are going
that that road. I think people are going to think that I mean sometimes people
to think that I mean sometimes people vote for
vote for parties that they they know maybe don't
parties that they they know maybe don't actually in their heart of hearts
actually in their heart of hearts represent their interests but but they
represent their interests but but they do represent their interests but they
do represent their interests but they they might not be doing so honestly. So
they might not be doing so honestly. So you know everybody knows that you know
you know everybody knows that you know this political figure that they're
this political figure that they're voting for isn't really a Christian but
voting for isn't really a Christian but because they're trying to essentially
because they're trying to essentially cater for Christians well they are
cater for Christians well they are pro-life for example. I mean, you spoke
pro-life for example. I mean, you spoke before about how that was, you know, an
before about how that was, you know, an important influence on you. And they
important influence on you. And they might say to you like, I hear what
might say to you like, I hear what you're saying, but like, you know, I
you're saying, but like, you know, I care about unborn children. I want to to
care about unborn children. I want to to vote for a politician that's going to
vote for a politician that's going to protect that. And, okay, sure, you're
protect that. And, okay, sure, you're probably not really a Christian. You're
probably not really a Christian. You're probably not really like a Jesus figure
probably not really like a Jesus figure or whatever. What am I supposed to do?
or whatever. What am I supposed to do? If if if me sort of being like, well,
If if if me sort of being like, well, I'm just going to be like Jesus and I'm
I'm just going to be like Jesus and I'm just going to, you know, walk around and
just going to, you know, walk around and give people, you know, money on the
give people, you know, money on the street and stuff. Meanwhile, you know,
street and stuff. Meanwhile, you know, like abortion becomes legal and they
like abortion becomes legal and they really care about that. like they've
really care about that. like they've they still want to apply some Christian
they still want to apply some Christian political pressure and it it does feel
political pressure and it it does feel as though fully taking your foot off the
as though fully taking your foot off the pedal there would be essentially like a
pedal there would be essentially like a removal of your interests from from
removal of your interests from from those who are governing you
those who are governing you >> and yeah and I think that's why it's a
>> and yeah and I think that's why it's a temptation. Yeah, be, you know, again,
temptation. Yeah, be, you know, again, and I'm not um like I do vote according
and I'm not um like I do vote according to my political interests because I'm
to my political interests because I'm not I'm actually not like I I love the
not I'm actually not like I I love the character of Jesus and I love these
character of Jesus and I love these stories, but I don't I don't apply this
stories, but I don't I don't apply this stuff to my life in the way that
stuff to my life in the way that Christians do. Yeah. And so I'm just
Christians do. Yeah. And so I'm just what I'm doing is I'm I am kind of
what I'm doing is I'm I am kind of calling them to the carpet a little bit
calling them to the carpet a little bit and saying that hey this is just not
and saying that hey this is just not consistent with you can reason and be
consistent with you can reason and be like well yeah but don't I need to like
like well yeah but don't I need to like vote for you know things that are
vote for you know things that are consistent with the Bible. It's like
consistent with the Bible. It's like well that's I'm not really talking about
well that's I'm not really talking about who you vote for. I'm talking more about
who you vote for. I'm talking more about the fact that the entire right at this
the fact that the entire right at this point is and they're using Christian and
point is and they're using Christian and so many Christians like if you go go on
so many Christians like if you go go on Christian Facebook if you can if you can
Christian Facebook if you can if you can bear it and see how they're celebrating
bear it and see how they're celebrating what is happening and the things that
what is happening and the things that are being won back as if it's like
are being won back as if it's like praise be amen you know praise God that
praise be amen you know praise God that this person won an election and I I'm
this person won an election and I I'm saying that specifically of thinking
saying that specifically of thinking that that's where your hope lies that's
that that's where your hope lies that's not biblical.
not biblical. >> I think it's also worth pointing out
>> I think it's also worth pointing out that you might say, "Yeah, but like, you
that you might say, "Yeah, but like, you know, if Jesus were around, he'd be
know, if Jesus were around, he'd be pro-life and he'd care." It's like, you
pro-life and he'd care." It's like, you don't think that the Roman government
don't think that the Roman government were doing things too that that Jesus
were doing things too that that Jesus probably thought weren't that great? I
probably thought weren't that great? I mean, in the ancient world, people would
mean, in the ancient world, people would like take live newborn babies and like
like take live newborn babies and like throw them in the dumpster because
throw them in the dumpster because they're disabled, right? And it's
they're disabled, right? And it's Christians who had like a really really
Christians who had like a really really strong role to play in the undoing it.
strong role to play in the undoing it. They called it exposure in the ancient
They called it exposure in the ancient world you know and Aristotle says quite
world you know and Aristotle says quite plainly like you know if if a child is
plainly like you know if if a child is deformed just you know leave them leave
deformed just you know leave them leave them out to die. And it was Christians
them out to die. And it was Christians who played a huge role in turning that
who played a huge role in turning that into something that we weren't allowed
into something that we weren't allowed to do anymore. But it wasn't through
to do anymore. But it wasn't through political pressure in the traditional
political pressure in the traditional sense. It was it was sort of
sense. It was it was sort of >> like the transformation of culture.
>> like the transformation of culture. >> Yeah. Like at if at the time it's worth
>> Yeah. Like at if at the time it's worth remembering, in other words, that there
remembering, in other words, that there were like political issues [laughter]
were like political issues [laughter] like of the of the Roman world in
like of the of the Roman world in Jesus's time and even in the faith which
Jesus's time and even in the faith which were probably much worse and more
were probably much worse and more extreme than basically anything that's
extreme than basically anything that's happening in our
happening in our >> the only thing he seemed to care about
>> the only thing he seemed to care about when it came to authority was the
when it came to authority was the religious authority that was that were
religious authority that was that were they were you know hypocrites.
they were you know hypocrites. >> Yeah. That's where his that's where his
>> Yeah. That's where his that's where his anger li like he wasn't sort of shouting
anger li like he wasn't sort of shouting at the political authorities in the same
at the political authorities in the same way which shows us at the very least
way which shows us at the very least where Jesus's interest lies and I think
where Jesus's interest lies and I think gives us an indication as to maybe what
gives us an indication as to maybe what he might be more like if you saw him
he might be more like if you saw him today like I don't I think you'd be more
today like I don't I think you'd be more likely to find him like you know
likely to find him like you know under the underpass like talking to a
under the underpass like talking to a homeless guy than like in a in a voting
homeless guy than like in a in a voting caucus trying to vote
caucus trying to vote >> and I think the real the real danger
>> and I think the real the real danger again like bring it back to to you know
again like bring it back to to you know kind of in closing of like why this is
kind of in closing of like why this is >> why this causes people to leave if you
>> why this causes people to leave if you want people who are coming in
want people who are coming in >> and a lot of people are coming in
>> and a lot of people are coming in because of this because they're
because of this because they're identifying politically with the right
identifying politically with the right and they are like well where's a place
and they are like well where's a place where that's sort of celebrated well
where that's sort of celebrated well that's celebrated in the Christian
that's celebrated in the Christian church
church when you bring people in based on that
when you bring people in based on that promise it's kind of like somebody going
promise it's kind of like somebody going to a restaurant because of trivia night
to a restaurant because of trivia night you is like, "Oh, they had a great
you is like, "Oh, they had a great trivia night." Well, how's the food?
trivia night." Well, how's the food? Well, the food the food sucks.
Well, the food the food sucks. Eventually,
Eventually, the trivia night's going to get old and
the trivia night's going to get old and you're going to realize that you're at a
you're going to realize that you're at a restaurant where the food sucks. So, you
restaurant where the food sucks. So, you know, a a church that isn't about Jesus
know, a a church that isn't about Jesus is like a restaurant that's not about
is like a restaurant that's not about the food. And I just think that you
the food. And I just think that you cannot point to anything in this
cannot point to anything in this political mo movement that is like, yes,
political mo movement that is like, yes, that is really representing the heart of
that is really representing the heart of Jesus. I think you can point to a lot
Jesus. I think you can point to a lot that seems to be going directly against
that seems to be going directly against the things that he said and taught. And
the things that he said and taught. And and so when you know this political
and so when you know this political movement that's happening right now, who
movement that's happening right now, who knows how far it's going to go.
knows how far it's going to go. Eventually it's going to pass away.
Eventually it's going to pass away. Jesus and the church are not going to
Jesus and the church are not going to pass away. Like they are going to still
pass away. Like they are going to still be there. They will evolve in some way.
be there. They will evolve in some way. But those people who are there because
But those people who are there because of some sense of patriotism or they're
of some sense of patriotism or they're like, I'm fearful about what's the
like, I'm fearful about what's the transformation of our country and that's
transformation of our country and that's why I'm at church. It's just like those
why I'm at church. It's just like those people when the political movement dies,
people when the political movement dies, there won't be anything there for them.
there won't be anything there for them. And do do you want them to fall in love
And do do you want them to fall in love with Jesus or do you want them to fall
with Jesus or do you want them to fall in love with making sure that the Ten
in love with making sure that the Ten Commandments are in every classroom?
Commandments are in every classroom? >> Make it about Jesus, not about the
>> Make it about Jesus, not about the politics.
politics. >> Yeah. Embrace faith, embrace truth, and
>> Yeah. Embrace faith, embrace truth, and embrace Jesus. The road map for yeah,
embrace Jesus. The road map for yeah, keeping Christians in the church from
keeping Christians in the church from your two friendly neighborhood agents.
your two friendly neighborhood agents. [laughter]
[laughter] >> Rhett, whatever you are.
>> Rhett, whatever you are. >> Welcome back to whatever you are. That's
>> Welcome back to whatever you are. That's good.
good. >> Thank you. Thank you very much for
>> Thank you. Thank you very much for coming back on. You do have a new
coming back on. You do have a new YouTube channel. You're an upandcomer.
YouTube channel. You're an upandcomer. >> Yeah, it's just called R Mclofflin.
>> Yeah, it's just called R Mclofflin. >> You've got like what, 40,000 subscribers
>> You've got like what, 40,000 subscribers or something on it?
or something on it? >> Yeah, I did that one video. Maybe
>> Yeah, I did that one video. Maybe there'll be another one up by this time.
there'll be another one up by this time. Yeah.
Yeah. >> Have you got I mean, have you got space
>> Have you got I mean, have you got space on the walls out there for another
on the walls out there for another YouTube plaque, another silver plaque?
YouTube plaque, another silver plaque? >> That's a really good question.
>> That's a really good question. >> You get 100. You might need
>> You get 100. You might need >> I think we might have to put a new shelf
>> I think we might have to put a new shelf in.
in. >> Yeah, it's it's getting pretty pretty
>> Yeah, it's it's getting pretty pretty extraordinary out there. I'll link it in
extraordinary out there. I'll link it in the description so that people can
the description so that people can people can go check it out. And I'm sure
people can go check it out. And I'm sure most people know where else to find you.
most people know where else to find you. Thanks for your time.
Thanks for your time. >> Yeah, thanks for having me.
>> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then
>> If you enjoyed that conversation, then go and watch the first one. That's the
go and watch the first one. That's the second time I've had Rhett on the show.
second time I've had Rhett on the show. I had him on before, and you can watch
I had him on before, and you can watch it by clicking the link that's on your
it by clicking the link that's on your screen. To support my work and get early
screen. To support my work and get early adree access to episodes, subscribe to
adree access to episodes, subscribe to my Substack at alexoconor.com.
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