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How to Get Things Done, Stay Focused, and Be More Productive

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Let me guess. You can't focus. Your

to-do list endless. You don't even know

where to begin. You feel unmotivated,

burnt out, unproductive, tired. Here's

the great news. You can do something

about it. Today, I'm handing you the

answer to the overwhelm you feel. And

his name is Dr. Cal Newport.

>> We don't write to-do list. We write wish list.

list.

>> Say that again.

>> So, we think we're making a to-do list

for the day, but it's a wish list.

>> It's wouldn't it be great if we got all

of these things done today? And you fall

in love with that story. You're like,

"Man, if I got all of these errands done

and all these calls, this would be

great." And you feel so good about

imagining that list being done. You

don't realize that you just put three

days worth of work onto your plan for

the day.

>> I feel very called out right now.

>> I want you to feel like you're doing

stuff that you're proud of. You're

producing work that matters. You're

spending time with people that you care

about and you're not anxiously

overloaded. That's where I'm trying to

get people. The goal is to have

intention for your time.

>> This would absolutely change the way

Cal Newport, I have been waiting for

this moment to meet you for a very, very

long time. I'm thrilled you made the

trip to Boston. Thank you for being here.

here.

>> Yeah, thanks for having me. I've been

looking forward to this as well.

>> I would love to have you speak directly

to the person who's listening and tell

them what might change about the way

that they live their life or that life

feels if they take everything to heart

that you're about to teach us today and

they put it to use in their life.

I don't like the feeling of busyness,

right? What drives me is I really don't

like that little bit of stress in the

pit of your stomach. There's just too

many things on my plate for me to get my

arms around at work, at home, you know,

with my family, with my friends, and

that sense of I'm not going to quite get

this all done, but what else can I do? I

hate that feeling of busyness. I think

that level of stress eats away at me. I

want to get rid of that. I want you to

feel like you're doing stuff that you're

proud of. You're producing work that

matters. You're spending time with

people that you care about and you're

not anxiously overloaded. That's where

I'm trying to get people.

>> Cal, I don't know that I've ever heard

anybody talk about busyness that way.

Here's what I would love to have you

help me understand. It seems like

everybody that I'm talking to in my life

is having trouble focusing, has way too

much work, is constantly overloaded,

stressed out, and the sense of

busyiness, which I would say for me, the

second you use that word, that is that

sort of ticking clock in the back of my

mind that time is running out. And it's

also this to-do list that I feel like

I'm constantly never able to get to. the

emails I can't this kind of constant hum

that's going on that I'm just not

getting to it. There's something that

I'm forgetting. I don't have enough time.

time.

>> Why is this particular time so

challenging for so many of us, Cal?

>> Well, first of all, we have a lot more inputs,

inputs, >> okay,

>> okay,

>> than ever before. Yeah. Right. Uh

digital technology has never made it

easier from a friction perspective to

ask someone to do something or to agree

to do something. Emails, text messages,

Slack notifications. It's very easy to

ask people to do things. That friction

is low. We're also more distracted than

before. So those same digital tools that

can deliver us requests for work are

also distracting us, capturing our

attention. And it's not like it used to

be 30 years ago where I would sit down

at the TV and I'm going to watch TV for,

you know, the next four hours. It's

these little snippets of distraction. >> Okay?

>> Okay?

>> A little social media, a little checkin

on a website right here, jumping over to

this game right here. So our attention's

fragmented. This makes it harder to do

things. So, we we're saying yes to more

things and then our ability to actually

complete things slows down because we're

distracted all the time. And it's all

digital technology that's sort of an

undercurrent to to all these issues. We

have to reclaim our brains, right? We we

don't realize the degree to which

looking down at these devices all the

time allowing companies that make a

fortune out of figuring out how to get

us to look at that screen to dominate

our cognitive landscape. We don't

realize the degree to that puts us out

of mental shape. It would be like we're

all professional athletes and we're

smoking and drinking milkshakes. Like,

well, we like the cigarettes. The

milkshakes taste good. We're not

realizing, well, this is making us

perform much worse when we're out on the

playing field. The same thing's

happening with our brains. You're going

to look at this stuff enough when it

comes time to think hard, to come up

with a new idea, to be creative, to push

through that project to the finish line.

We struggle. And I don't think we

realize the degree to which we're just

out of cognitive shape. Well, I also

think this this has a huge implication

too for anybody that's caring for little

kids or caring for aging parents and so

you're getting it both at work and

you're getting it at home too because

you're a caregiver that that being out

of cognitive shape is also the reason

why you have no time for yourself and

you're exhausted and ever ends. I mean,

are those connected?

>> Oh, it really is. It also can give you a

background current of anxiety. So, if

what you're distracting yourself with on

your phone is going to be charged

content, maybe coming through social media,

media,

>> what does charge content mean?

>> It's made to make you emotional, right?

So, you have an algorithm that is

selecting things for you to see that's

going to get a reaction because if you

have a reaction, you're going to scroll

to the next thing. Well, what's the

biggest reactions we can make? You're

going to be really upset. You're going

to be really angry. You're going to be

really surprised or sad. That's gold if

you're a company trying to get you to

look at a phone. But it's terrible if

it's your mind and you're trying to be

present with your kids and it's bath

time and instead of being able to just

be there and be with your kids, you're

feeling anxious and you're feeling

distracted and you don't feel good at

all. That's the state we put ourselves

in. And we just think of it now as this

is what it feels like to be alive in the

modern world. I don't think we realize

that a lot of this is actually a

self-imposed sense of negative feeling. >> Wow.

>> Wow.

I'm sorry. I just wanted that to sink in

for a minute because I think that for

most of us that's right. You don't even

realize that there's a different way to

live your life. We have been so sucked

into this sense of busyness and you just

called it charge content which I've

never heard anybody say before but it

makes sense of constantly needing

stimulation which is subsequently

exhausting your mind and your body and

your spirit. What does slow productivity

mean? Because when I hear the word slow

productivity, I have an aversion because

I'm so used to busyiness. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> That I feel scared to slow down.

Is that normal?

>> I think that reaction is why I wrote the book.

book.

>> Say more.

>> The idea that putting the word slow in

front of productivity makes people nervous

nervous

>> told me that we have a problem. And

where this book actually came out of,

there's two things that are happening.

One general, one personal. So the

general thing is the pandemic hit. I

have a podcast audience, a book reader

audience, and they started to get really

upset about the word productivity.

>> And they're really pushing. They're

like, we're tired about this word. We're

exhausted. We don't like this word. And

I began to think, what's going on here?

Like what do people think productivity

means? And why is that broken? Then I

had this personal thread going on which

is you know I have three boys

>> and they were just entering this age

that elementary age where a a switch

flipped where they needed basically

every dad hour possible. I guess it's a

son and dad sort of thing. So then I was

thinking in my own life, how do I keep

doing the things I need to do to be sort

of successful in my job but have way

more time for them? Because this they're

in this phase now. It's no longer

toddler survival phase. It's we need to

be around dad. we need dad time. So, I

was thinking about it as well. So, so

both these things came together and I

was figuring out, okay, what's going on

with productivity? Why is it stressing

us out? Is it possible to be productive

without being stressed out? Is it

possibly productive without being super

busy? And I went down this rabbit hole

of where did our current notion of

productivity come from? What is our

current notion of productivity? And is

there one that could be slower? And this

was where the book came out of.

>> Cal, what does everybody get wrong about productivity?

productivity?

This was the problem. >> Okay,

>> Okay,

>> we we had a definition and by we I mean,

you know, economist. We'd had a

definition for hundreds of years, which

was it's a a ratio. It's this much stuff

went into the system, this much stuff

came out. And if you can get more stuff

out, you're more productive. It it

originated talking about agriculture. We

have this many acres of land. If we can

get this many bushels of wheat versus

that many bushels, then we have a more

productive way of tending our crops.

Then we got factories. It made a lot of

sense. We have this many workers in the

factories. How many model T's are we

producing by, you know, per day. And

when we switched the way we built Model

T's, the number went up. That's more

productive. That was the definition of

productivity that we had established for

a couple hundred years. Then office work

became big, right? So this idea, I call

it knowledge work in the book. Knowledge

work is a a term from the 1950s because

that's when people working with their

brains became a major thing in a way

that it wasn't before. Those definitions

of productivity didn't work anymore

because there were no model T's to point

to. If I'm working at an office job, I

can't say at the end of the day, here's

a pile of widgets. See, I produced 10

widgets today. Aren't aren't I being

productive? That person only produced

seven. Instead, in office jobs, people

were working on many different things.

what they were working on was somewhat

unclear because it would shift from day

to day. The person next to me would be

working on different things than I'm

working on. It all became way more vague

and hazy. So, we no longer had a good

way of actually with numbers saying

here's how productive you are. Here's

how productive that person is. And so,

my argument is what we did instead is we

fell back on this rough rule that I call

pseudo productivity which just said the

more I see you doing the better. So

visible activity will become my proxy

for you're being useful. The busier you

are, the more productive I'm going to

say you are. So we fell into this trap I

call pseudo productivity. And that's

where we got our busyness epidemic. And

I think that's what people got fed up

with by the time we got to the pandemic.

>> It makes so much sense as you were

describing that especially when you went

from agriculture to model Tactory work.

I personally, and I'm sure as you were

listening to Cal talk,

I started to feel like I was getting squeezed.

squeezed. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think we've all had those jobs and

those days where you just feel this

relentless sense that your work or

school or your obligations are just

squeezing every single ounce out of you

and it's just never enough. And we even

did come up with things to measure

whether it's quotas or it's the number

of hamburgers you can crank out as a

short order cook or the number of

patients that you can see in an hour in

a health care system or the efficiencies

that a fire department like we're always

measuring something.

>> Yeah. And you know, I also think a lot,

Cal, because you mentioned the pandemic

and we both do a ton of speaking on the

corporate circuit that I started to

notice the uptick in meetings and the

number of meetings that people were

obligated to attend when everybody was

at home. And I feel as though coming out

of that situation and into more hybrid

work for a lot of people, we've never

adjusted work back from reactive meeting meeting.

meeting. >> Y

>> Y

>> to what's actually important and how do

we carve out time for people to get

things done? What is productivity? How

do you define it? How do you think about

it, Cal?

>> Producing stuff that's valuable. I

ultimately whatever your business is,

your organization, there's something

that you produce that brings value to

your clients, to your customers, or

whatever it is,

>> and we take our eye off of that because

it's not actually as easy to measure as

we would hope, especially when it's work

where we're using our brain. Um, it's

hard to measure. You produced 17 units

of value this week and last week it was

12 units of value. So, we fall back on

busyiness. But the thing that actually

matters is results. And in like most

jobs, you can point to, oh, this is the

thing that matters, right? Like if

you're a professor like I am, you know,

you want to teach your classes well and

you want to produce research that makes

an impact on the world in your

particular field. And yet so much of

what we do

>> is unrelated to that or gets in the way

of that. It's endless meetings and

emails and jumping off and on these type

of calls and handing in forms or this or

that. And the same is for almost every

job. Like, okay, I'm running marketing

for a company. What really matters?

marketing campaigns that move the

needle. That's what matters. Not how

many emails you answer, not how many

meetings you jumped in and out of. It's

like, did we get a campaign that

actually move the needle? You can do

this for almost any job. There's the

things that produce value and then

there's busyiness. But the busyiness is

what we judge people by in the moment

because we had this rough rule, the

pseudo productivity rule that emerged in

the 50s and 60s. So what I think has

happened is this pseudro productivity

culture in work has made its way into

our personal life. Whether you have one

of these jobs or not, it gets into our

general culture. >> Okay,

>> Okay,

>> more is better than less. Busy is good,

non- busy is a problem. Once that gets

into our culture, then other parts of

your life, you pick that up. It's why I

think people in their personal life are

taking on more things and are busier

than they would have been 20 years ago

or 30 years ago. That our our personal

lives cultures are often downstream from

our work lives and the culture that

dominates there. So I think we're pseudo

productive in our lives outside of work

as well just because it's in the air.

Well, I also feel like there's a lot of

make wrong that people do like when you

look at yourself and the way that you're

spending your time on the weekends or

let's say that you're going through a

chapter. You've you've lost a job so

you're looking for what the next thing

is or you've been taking care of kids

and now you want to think about okay

well what's next? I'm an empty neester.

What's next? I've done that part of my

life and job and purpose that I see a

lot of people making themselves wrong

because they're quote not busy because

they're quote not up to something. And

so what are some of the things that you

see in terms of how people beat

themselves up with this pseudo

productivity in their personal life?

>> Well, we we think more it makes us

better or more is more value or if we're

not doing more that we're missing out on

opportunities, even though I think the

opposite is true. It's I tell a lot of

these stories in the book that often the

people who are are happiest or most

fulfilled. What's it about? One or two

things they do really well.

>> Like one or two things they really care

about. When you think about people

historically, for example, who you

really admire,

>> they're often neglecting in some sense

by our modern standards whole aspects of

their life because they think this thing

is really important and I get a a lot of

value out of it. This mindset of do less

but do better

>> and know why. So I'm not doing as many

things, but the things I'm doing I do

well and I and I have a real connection

to it. Like it matters to me that I'm

doing it. That's the recipe for

fulfillment. And busyiness just gets in

the way of that. But I think we think to

ourselves, if I'm not being busy, I'm

missing out on opportunities, I'm not

living up to my potential, and I'm

somehow loafing. I'm somehow being lazy.

>> But again, the most impressive people in

terms of we admire their lives, not just

accomplishments. They don't do that many

things, but they really care about the

things they do.

>> Well, what I love about slow

productivity is that you have simplified

it and you've already given us a nod to

the three principles that make up slow

productivity. And the first one, because

I really want you to break these down,

is do fewer things. What does that mean?

>> Well, the the key word that's missing

from that that makes it less stressful

to people is do fewer things at once.

So, I'm really wary of doing too many

things at the same time. And my argument

is here's what happens. When you agree

to do something, it brings with it

administrative overhead, right? emails

that you have to answer, meetings you

have to do, conversations you have to

have, right? That's just natural. I'm

working on something. I got to

collaborate with people. Yeah.

>> On this work.

>> What happens as you say yes to more

things? Well, they each bring with them

their own administrative overhead.

>> Now, your time is limited per day,

right? That's fixed.

>> So, more and more of your day will now

get spent on that administrative

overhead, the meetings and the emails

and the conversations, which leaves less

time to actually do the work. And what

paradoxically begins to happen is you

get way slower. So you think if I say

yes to a lot more things, I'll get a lot

more things done and that'll make me

more productive. But what really happens

is as you say yes to too many things,

your day gets increasingly jammed up

talking about those things and the speed

at which you actually finish things

plummets. So if you work on fewer things

at the same time, you're less stressed.

more of your day is spent doing real

work, but the overall pace at which

you're accomplishing things, that

actually goes up. So, I make this

argument to the businesses that say,

"Wait a second, do fewer things. We're

going to run out of money. We're going

to lose our competitive edge." I say,

"No, no, no, no. Zoom out and measure

how many things are you finishing per

year." If you're working on fewer things

at once, it's going to skyrocket because

your day is actually going to allow you

to make progress on things, and over

time, you're going to get through things

much faster. So, I think doing fewer

things at once is critical. You know, it

goes against that saying that everybody

says, if you want something done, ask a

busy person. And how does this translate

to your personal life? Because I think,

you know, when you hear that, you're

like, that sounds great, Cal. And I got

I I like, who's going to take care mom?

Who's going to do this? So, how do you

tr how do you translate that to your

personal life? Because I can see that

for business, like you can't be in 11

businesses at once.

>> Yeah. Do you actually know the two or

three most important things that need to

get done this week, this month, this

year to be successful in business? And I

made massive mistakes in the very

beginning of just saying yes to

everything out of survival.

>> Well, I have this phrase on my podcast

that's called facing the productivity

dragon because I get Q&A. So, people

call in and they often have this issue.

They look, I have this going on and this

I need to do this and I'm trying to do

this and I'm training for the marathon

and I'm taking care

>> of my parent and I'm also trying to

learn how to shoot archery and what you

have these these big long list of things

and facing the productivity dragon is

actually listing out here's all the

things I want to do

>> and how much time this is going to take

>> and then realizing I can't do all these

things. We call it facing the dragon

because this is very scary for people.

You don't want to confront the reality

that maybe the things you really want to

do aren't all going to fit. And then the

response after you face a productivity

dragon is like a reality check. It's

like, well, what time do I have? And

there's phases of life where it's not

what you would want. You know, there's a

phase of life when you have young kids,

for example, where I can't also do this

and that. I can't train for this. I

can't get my cinema club up with my

friends. Like, that's not going to

happen. Now, there's another season of

life where maybe that that will. Or I'm

taking care of a parent who's aging.

This is a huge time. Let me face this.

This is a major thing I'm doing and this

is eating up a huge amount of time. And

when you face the productivity drag and

you reality check, then you can make

better decisions about the time you do

have. And you say, "Okay, these three

things were too ambitious. Their time

demands were too static. I'm not going

to be able to fit this in, but I'm also

really stressed out. So, why don't I

replace this with this other thing that

is more flexible, and it's going to help

me recharge. Like, maybe what I need to

do is get outside in nature more." And

that's just going to be my thing. Or I

want to just be able to read and get

through a book a week, you know, read

one novel a week and I want to spend,

you know, two evenings a week if I can

at the coffee shop reading

>> one novel a week. Cal, how fast do you

read for crying out loud? That that

sounds a little ambitious, I should say.

Thank you. Thank you. Well, like you're

talking to to we mere mortals here, Cal

Newport. Well, I want to give an example

because one thing that came to mind is

that when Chris and I um were young

parents, it had always been his dream to

get an MBA. And you know, when you think

about this principle, do fewer things at

the same time. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I think that there are a ton of things

that we all have in the back of our mind

that we hang over our heads and say,

"You're not getting to it." One for me,

one for me is learning Spanish.

So, this is something I've been talking

about for decades. Okay, it's always

there. Another one, learning guitar.

Everybody in my family plays. I do not I

always like have this hanging over my

head. There are projects around the

house. I don't even want to say the word

picture wall because everybody here will

know what I'm talking about because I've

been talking about it. And it is very

sobering to write all this stuff down on

a piece of paper and go, "Come on now.

What is this busyness that I'm torturing

myself with that I just it's just not

important right now?" >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Based on the time that I have, I would

rather be hiking than sitting down and

trying to learn guitar right now. It

just is what it is and I need to face

the dragon. with Chris, he really wanted

to get his MBA and he got into a

two-year program and we had two kids

that were under the age of five. We were

both working and what he ended up doing,

which I think is an important thing for

people to hear, is he basically said,

"This actually does matter, but I can't

go full-time." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> He went one class a semester. It took

him seven years, but he got it done. And

so is that an example of like how you

can use this principle to face the

productivity dragon and basically say

not now but if this is going to happen

now maybe I've got to expand how much

time I have to give to it and be honest

with myself.

>> I think it's a great example and I

should say I was laughing because we

have our box from Crate and Barrel of

our picture wall framed. It's been in

our basement for a decade. We bought

them. We were We knew we were going to

hang them.

>> I think everybody who has kids feels

this way. Like I need to get the photos

up on the wall.

>> I think we even ordered the photos at

one point, but

>> now they're all out of date. Our kids

are much older. Yeah,

>> that's hilarious.

>> Uh but I think that's a perfect example. Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. And it I tell a bunch of stories

because I found this really important. I

I I tell a bunch of stories, you know,

in the the more recent book about the

pace at which people who did famous

things actually did those things

>> when he Oh, I want to hear those. What are

are

>> So, you look at someone like Isaac

Newton, like a big example, right? Like,

oh god, he wrote this book that invented

calculus and figured out gravity. He

worked on that thing off and on for

decades. Now, we don't know how long it

took him. We just know like, oh, he did

this thing that was really impressive,

right? or or Jane Austin, you know, she

sort of was working on these books in

the background, but it wasn't until

later in life, basically she got towards

her young 40s, that she sort of finally

finished these books. We don't know how

long it took her. Said she wrote these

great books, right? This, I think, is a

helpful thing to keep in mind is doing

things slowly doesn't matter in the long

run. In the end, you say, "Oh, Chris has

an NBA. That's great." and opened up

these interesting opportunities or

>> Mel learned to play guitar and then

maybe it's 10 years from now that you

actually do it. It the idea that it all

has to get done right now I think often

traps us.

>> So doing fewer things, taking your time

with things, it adds up over time

>> for sure. It's a perfect example though

I think is like I really want to do this

but I can't do a full-time program right

now. Great. I'll take my time. And I

love the example that you gave that all

right, I'm just in the chapter of my

life where I'm raising young kids or all

right, I'm in the chapter of my life

where the amount of time I have with my

parents is limited and I really value

that more than these other things. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> That I thought were important. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Can you speak to the person who has has

trouble saying no? Like they feel so

guilty saying no. What is your advice to

somebody who needs to start saying no

but just has trouble doing it? You're

probably saying no more than you think. >> Okay?

>> Okay?

>> Right? It's not that the work on your

plate right now is exactly all the

things people have asked you to do and

now if you start saying no that this is

the first time you've ever done it.

You're implicitly turning things down

all the time. You're probably just

waiting till you're stressed before you

start pushing back. So this is not about

going from someone who never says no to

someone who does. It's about saying no a

little bit more often. So I try to lower

the stakes, right? you're already

controlling your workload. And then two

to recognize other people don't care

about you and your workload as much as

you think.

>> I think we project again when someone's

asking us what to do that they have a

control room where everyone has all

these notes on you and everything you've

said yes and no to and that a red

siren's going to go off when you say no

and they're like why is this person

saying no? They don't care that much

about you in that sense, right? They're

just hey can you do this? And you say no

like oh great I'll ask someone else,

right? Like it's just something on their

mind. And so I try to lower the stakes,

right? It matters more to you. You're

probably getting more thrown by saying

no than the other person, but you

absolutely have to. You have to control

your workload. There's also the Matt

Damon rule, which is similar. His rule

was always you have to project yourself

to the day before the thing you just

agreed to is about to happen. So if

you're the night before, are you gonna

be psyched or are you gonna say, "Oh my

god, I have to fly to Baltimore now or

do whatever." So, because it's exciting

in the moment to say yes to something

that sounds fun because you're just

thinking about the fun part, but how are

you going to feel the night before when

you're having to pack and go to the

airport and be away from your kids? And

if you're not going to be excited, then

say no. Right now,

>> I want to read you from your book, Slow

Productivity. This is on page 59 and

it's in the section where you're really

unpacking this concept of do fewer

things. The advantage of doing fewer

things, however, is that more than just

increasing the raw number of hours

dedicated to useful activity, the

quality of these hours also increases.

When you approach a project without the

hurried need to tend many barely

contained fires, you enjoy a more

expansive sense of experimentation and

possibility. Maybe you're able to

identify a clever new business strategy,

devise an elegant algorithm, or come up

with a bold advertising campaign that

would have eluded you in a more

fragmented state of attention. There are

boring physiological and neurological

explanations for this effect involving

the mind constricting impacts of

cortisol when your schedule becomes

unrealistically full or the time

required to excite rich semantic

connections among your brain's neurons.

But we don't need science to convince us

of something that we've all experienced

directly. Our brains work better when

we're not rushing.

What I got from this section of the

book, I could feel my brain exhale, is

that in addition to that sense that I

think we all feel that we're being

squeezed to death to produce as much as

we can,

>> that we're also missing out on what's

possible when we slow down and give our

mind, body, and spirit its best chance to

do our best work. Whether that's the

video you're creating for a YouTube

channel or it's simply being able to be

present with your parents when you're

spending that hour with them

>> or present with your kids when you're

spending a little bit of time with them

instead of jamming in 15 phone calls.

>> And you know, I had something happen

that was so kind of sad. I had a woman

come up to me and say, "Oh, you know,

hi. I I I love your podcast and my

husband and I were away for the

weekend." And I and I started chatting

with her and she said, "Oh, yeah. Well,

I'm here with my kids." And she turned

to me and said, "You know, it's really

important that I I'm away because, you

know, I work like crazy and I I I've

built this big business and I'm

constantly online and I'm never present

with them unless I'm on vacation.

And she said it in a way that was almost

like bragging about the busyiness. And I

do think that there is this sort of

crown that we're putting on our heads.

I'm busier than you are. I'm doing all

these things. It just made me feel so sad.

sad. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> That she could actually say that that

I'm only present with my kids when I'm

on vacation because that's the only time

I'm not working. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> What a sad thing. I think this is an

angle that's that's worth putting in

there is that there is a bit of a

psychological safety and saying I can be

busier than anyone else. I'm not going

to fail at that. But if it's instead I'm

going to try to produce a strategy

that's going to put dollars on the

board. My marketing measure this

campaign. This is going to move. This

book is going to sell this many copies.

You can fail at that. And so we're less

comfortable with I'm just focusing

trying to get this done. You know where

you see this a lot is grad students,

right? So I'm an academic and you know I

when I was at the doctoral program you

know here in Boston MIT just have a lot

of memories of being back here.

>> It's very scary for a lot of students

who arrive at something like a doctoral

program because you have a lot of time

you have a lot of flexibility and the

the goal is very clear produce research

write papers and that's really scary

because it's loose and it could take you

six months of thinking to produce it.

And there's an effect that hits a lot of

grad students where they inject a lot of

busyiness into their life so that they

don't feel guilty

>> because it's too scary. It's too

overwhelming this idea of I'm just going

to sit and think and hopefully I produce

a good paper six months from now. And

you see it all the time that you can

point out these are the students who are

suffering from this. They take on all

sorts of obligations. They get really

frantic. They never make it through the

program. But they do it because it was

it was too scary psychologically to say

I just have to eventually produce

something good. Well, you know, I think

this has a direct application to

people's personal lives because if

you've ever been in a period of your

life where you're stuck, >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> whether it's trying to figure out what

your career should be in your 20s or 30s

figuring out relationships or whatever

it may be, you're, you know, in your 50s

like me and you're thinking about

reinventing yourself and you don't know

what the next move is, I see the same

thing happening. People fill their days

with meaningless stuff to stay busy

because contemplating the deeper

questions of what should I do next and

really leaning into that and reading

books about it and watching videos about

it or going to therapy is scary. And so

you can waste years of your life

piddling around doing a lot of

meaningless stuff because you were

scared to slow down, which is what

you're teaching us, this concept of slow productivity,

productivity,

which isn't how we're wired today. And

you know, I want to keep going with the

three principles. The second principle

is work at a natural pace. What does

that mean? Well, this goes back to

slowing down how long you spend on

things and being okay with it.

>> Like, we we set this standard, okay,

>> where we're going to we write ourselves

a fairy tale, okay?

>> Or here's these things we want to do. I

want to get my NBA. I want to renovate

the house. I want to learn this

programming language so I can get ahead

at work. We write a fairy tale about,

wouldn't it be great if I got all of

these things done in six months? And

then we begin to fall in love with the

ending of that tale. Man, I'd be in such

a good place six months from now.

Wouldn't that be so great? Great. This

is what I'm going to I'm going to do all

these things right now and it's

impossible because these things take a

lot of time and we stress ourselves out

and we we fall apart trying to do it. So

working at a natural pace says don't

write a fairy tale. >> Okay,

>> Okay,

>> take the time things need and maybe do

one thing at a time and know that if it

takes you this many years to do the MBA

and you don't get to the house until two

years from now and that you'll you'll

later maybe you'll pick up this

programming language, you're going to

wait till next summer when things are

quieter and then you can actually take

time to take a course. All of it will

get done, but you don't have to do it at

the fastest possible pace. The other

thing that work at natural pace means is

in the context of even like a given day,

you don't have to be all out all day.

>> Okay. Well, let's talk about this

because I feel that the

there's a lot of us that I think because

of pseudo productivity and this

obsession with busyness and the fact

that we're very used to feeling this

overwhelm and this stress and this

constant buzzing that

I have, for example, Cal, the most

unrealistic expectation about what I

could get done in 10 minutes. And I I I

I'm seeing this expression on your face

that I've seen on my husband Chris's

face. So, I would imagine maybe your

wife is a little bit more like me where

you're in the car waiting and she's

still running around the house trying to

get some things done and make a phone

call and then like she can squeeze 25

things into about 9 minutes.

>> Yeah. And it takes me 90 minutes to do

the same amount of things.

>> Yes. But you know that.

>> I know that. But I still wake up every

day and it's like I impose this insanity

on myself. Yeah.

>> That I can get all this stuff done in a

matter of 11 minutes when I know that

it's going to take me 23 minutes to even

drive to the place and I should have

been in the car 17 minutes ago.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> So, how is this a function of this

pseudo productivity?

>> Well, yeah. We don't write to-do list.

We write wish list.

>> Say that again.

>> So, we think we're making a to-do list

for the day, but it's a wish list. It's

wouldn't it be great if we got all of

these things done today? and you fall in

love with that story.

>> You're like, "Man, if I got all of these

errands done and all these calls, this

would be great." And you feel so good

about imagining that list being done.

You don't realize that you just put

three days worth of work onto your plan

for the day. It It's why I tell people

to to actually make a blocked plan for

their day.

>> Okay, hold on. Can we just unpack the

wish list thing? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Because I you I I feel very cold out

right now. I love making to-do lists,

but I do think they are wish lists. And

and part of the thing is is that when I

write them all down, I write them down

and I feel so satisfied because now I

don't have anxiety of having to hold it

in my brain. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And there is this weird sense, Cal, that

simply because I wrote it down, somehow

it's going to magically get done. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Is this like how everybody feels when

they make a long to-do list

>> or wish list, I should call it now?

>> It feels good. >> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> Uh but it's not your fault that it's

unrealistic. It's the human brain is not

good at these time predictions. >> Okay,

>> Okay,

>> estimating how long it takes to answer

four emails is not something our brain

evolved to do well.

>> So, we're really bad at estimating time.

So, our brain just says, "Hey, it would

be great if we did all these things."

>> It's not our fault. I mean, there's

nothing in our history as a species that

made us good at fine-tuned time

estimations of these really abstract

things we do in the modern world. So,

we're really bad at it. And that's why I

say make a plan with your actual time.

What am I doing during this next block

of time? Like, is this deep work or is

this not deep work? Okay? And if it's

not deep work, then great. Let's let's

answer a bunch of emails, get a bunch of

errands done. In fact, let's batch that

together. If we're going to be bouncing

all around, let's bounce all around.

Let's consolidate that.

>> If it's deep work, though, my rules are

simple. Uh, no distractions at all.

>> So, once I've labeled this block of

time, and I'll be clear, here's how long

this block of time goes. I block out my

day. So, this is going to be 90 minutes.

This is going to be 1 hour, two hours,

whatever the block is. There will be no

distractions during that time, which

means I don't want my attention to shift

to anything other than the thing I'm

working on right now. So, no email, no

phone, no jumping off.

>> Do you not have your you do you shut

your laptop?

>> Or if I'm working on my laptop, I'm not

doing anything else on it.

>> Okay. Now,

>> you can trust yourself for that because

I think a lot of us will say, "Okay, I'm

about to do some work here." And then

you flip it over, you're like, "Oh,

maybe I just check the messages, see if

anything came in."

>> You get used to it. It's a training. I

>> What do you mean you get used to it?

>> You can actually practice this. And

>> how the hell am I going to practice this?

this?

>> I've done this with people before. We

call it interval training.

>> And this is true. This really works.

>> I thought I was doing this for my

muscles and my my stomach muscles and my

biceps. Cal, you're saying I got to do

interval training for my brain. That's

how bad it's gotten.

>> You'll get better results than you

probably will doing interval training

for your muscles, right? Because like

our mind is very valuable. And I

actually do this with people. I've done

this with undergraduates before, >> okay?

>> okay?

>> Who have been completely distraction

riddled and by the end of a semester, I

can get them locked in for 90 minutes at

a time.

>> Oh, Cal, help me out here.

>> Here's all it is. Okay, we start with,

let's say, 20-minut interval. You're

going to focus on this cognitive

demanding task, studying or writing or

reading a book or whatever,

>> paying your bills.

>> Yeah. 20 minutes. It's got to be

something that requires focus. And

you're going to set a timer. And if you

wander off and do something else, if you

glance at that phone or you go to an

internet tab or what have you, you got

to stop that timer and start it over. >> Really?

>> Really? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> Now, most people can do that because you

have this consequence. It's kind of

embarrassing. You're like, I can do 20

minutes. Okay. I know I really want to

check my phone, but 20 minutes I can do.

Okay. Right. So, you you practice that

until it's no longer so difficult. Not

your mind isn't rebelling.

>> All right. Can I ask you a question?

>> Yeah. How long, like how many days in a

row does it take for somebody to start

to build this muscle?

>> Two weeks.

>> Two weeks. Why two weeks?

>> That's just what I've noticed

empirically. Yeah. Two weeks

>> you're usually pretty comfortable and

then you add 10 minutes.

>> So then it becomes 30.

>> Becomes 30.

>> And you do that for another two weeks.

Yeah. And then it becomes 40.

>> Yeah. And is there a certain amount of

time that based on your research is kind

of the maximum amount of time you should

work in in a time block? Like I realize

you got a big muscle in terms of your

brain, but I got like meat flabs up here

waving in the wind. And so mine's not

that strong. Like but is there like a

limit to how much you would recommend

somebody do these time blocks for deeper work?

work?

>> 90 minutes would be the goal.

>> 90 minutes is the goal.

>> That's why I had people aiming. If you

can do 90 minutes and you're pretty

comfortable reading a book or writing or

working on a business strategy for 90

minutes, you're pretty comfortable not

going to distraction. That's very good. >> Wow.

>> Wow.

>> And then take a break.

>> Well, that's true because if you could

get 90 minutes of focus work done every

day, that's probably more that you do in

eight hours being distracted. Is there a

particular time of day where it's easier

to focus?

>> Most people it's morning. There are

people who claim evening is better. They

tend not to have kids. This has been my observation.

observation.

The people who say, "Yeah, I like

midnight to 4 in the morning is when I

get my work done." Uh, typically don't

have kids. The one exception is the

novelist Brandon Sanderson who will work

until 3:00 or 4 in the morning and then

sleep till noon. But that's not exactly

a very sustainable plan. But for most

people, first thing in the morning, like

that's when their energy is the highest.

That's when their focus is the highest.

They use the brain muscle early when

it's strong and then in the afternoon

you can use it for the stuff that

doesn't require the strength, the

emails, the errands, etc.

>> So, do you ever make a to-do list wish

list thing, Cal?

>> No, but here's what I I do to get the

the mental relief. I keep everything I

need to do written down somewhere. >> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> But I don't treat it as a plan for the day.

day.

>> Oh, this is life-changing.

>> Yeah. So keep all of the stuff that's

causing you agita written down somewhere

because that gives you mental relief.

>> Oh, it's critical. Yeah. There's there's

a there's a whole idea in the time

management world.

>> There's a guy named David Allen,

>> of course,

>> right? And and he had this idea. He

called it full capture. >> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> So it's his idea, but I live by it. And

full capture is this idea. If everything

you need to do is written down

somewhere, not most things, but

everything, you get huge mental relief

because his theory is anything that

you've you're obligated to do that's

only in your head, your brain has to

keep that alive.

>> It's like the tabs are open upstairs.

>> Yeah. He calls it open loops. Uh it's

got to keep the loop going and that is

going to use mental energy and be a

little bit source of stress. Well, I

feel like part of the reason why, at

least for me, the busyiness has hit this

critical thing is because of the number

of open tabs and that has to do because

I'm learning from you with the amount of

input that's coming in and my sense of

obligation that I'm somehow supposed to

be like a juggler handling more and more

plates in the air. So the act of

creating a wish list to lighten the

mental load and close some of these tabs

is critically important for your ability

to create the space to do more of the

deep work and slow productivity. You

know I want to read to you from this

part of your book where you talk about

working at a natural pace. This is on

page 115.

Our exhausting tendency to grind without

relief hour after hour, day after day,

month after month, is more arbitrary

than we recognize. It's true that many

of us have bosses or clients making

demands, but they don't always dictate

the details of our daily schedules. It's

often our own anxieties that play the

role of the fiercest taskmaker. We

suffer from overly ambitious timelines

and poorly managed workloads due to a

fundamental uneasiness with ever

stepping back from the numbing

exhaustion of jittery busyness. I'd love

to have you, Cal, talk about that

because working at a natural pace

doesn't feel

like it's accessible if you work in

certain types of jobs. You know what I

mean? like if you're in a hospital, if

you're in a big company and they have

Zoom meetings all day long and you have

no time to get work done, what are your

recommendations for how you

pull back time when you feel like you

just don't have time at work or at school?

school?

>> Well, one thing I've noticed is we often

think people want accessibility and

immediiacy. We think what our bosses

want is you to do this thing as quickly

as possible. They want you to answer me

as soon as possible. get back to me as

soon as possible. Do this thing as as

soon as possible. The reality is that's

not really what they want. What they

want is you to take care of this problem

that exists for them, right? So, here's

this thing that's on their mind as a

source of stress. They want that stress

to go away and they want you to help

them make that stress go away. Like,

this is the the transaction that's

happening. Mhm.

>> If they trust that you have your act together,

together,

>> so if you're organized, if you deliver

when you say you're going to deliver,

you're reliable, you never drop the ball.

ball.

>> When they pass something on to you,

their stress goes away. You know, Mel's

going to get this done. She's really

organized. I trust her. She never drops

the ball. It's not so important that you

do it right away. It's just that you've

taken the stress away because I know

you're going to get it done. So, if you

have a reputation of being organized and

on the ball, you don't have to do things

immediately. You don't have to answer

things right away. If you're not, if

you're disorganized, if you drop the

ball, if they worry about it, then they

want you to do it right away because

they're going to have to keep this in

their head until it's done, they don't

trust you. So, if you can build trust

with the people you work for, they're

going to give you more flexibility,

right? So, if they you come back and

say, "I'm on it and I'm looking at my

schedule and I keep a very careful

schedule and I can tell you this is

going to be Wednesday is probably I'm

I'm putting this on my schedule now.

That's when I'm going to get to. It's

going to be next Wednesday." if they

trust you, like great, I don't have to

worry about this anymore. It'll get done

by Wednesday, and you've just bought

yourself some breathing room. So, it's

not always possible, but I do argue for

people if you get your organizational

act together and build a reputation as

someone who knows how to organize your

time and schedule, you can actually slow

things down a little bit and you can

dictate more. I'm doing it. Here's how

I'm going to get it done. And they

implicitly will trust you. Okay, that

must be like the right time for you to

get it done. So, trust can go a lot

farther than than we think.

>> You know, I love this sentence. It's

true that many of us have bosses or

clients making demands, but they don't

always dictate the details of our daily

schedules. It's often our own anxieties

that play the role. Can you talk a

little bit more about that? Because I

don't think

at least when I

reflect back on times in my life. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Where I would have vehemently argued

with you, I don't have time. I I don't I

cannot possibly slow down because if I

slow down, none of this stuff is going

to get done and if it doesn't get done,

I'm gonna get fired. Like people can get

themselves into this crazy making.

>> Yeah. What advice do you have for the

person that's listening that wants

desperately to work at a natural pace

but has no idea how to assess the

demands of the day at work and in life

and actually see it with clear eyes

about what is important and what's not

important because there's that phrase

that I love that if everything's

important nothing is. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> How do you stop yourself though, Cal?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we we we tell

ourselves the story

>> that all these people asking us to do

things have a big picture of us up on

the wall. They've been tracking, okay,

how long did it take before like Mel got

back to us last time? There's a whole

group of professors studying your

performance. And if you're not going as

fast as possible, the alarm bells are

going to go off. They'll be like, what

happened here? Why did this take you

four hours instead of three? But the

reality is, no one cares that much about

you. They're throwing work at you

because they don't want it on their

plate, and they're just happy that it's

off their plate. And you have more

flexibility to figure out how do I

actually want to get things done. We

often have more breathing room than we

think, but we just imagine that people

just need us right now and will really

notice if we're not there.

>> Can you ask for that at work? Like could

you say to your boss like do you think

like is that something that makes you

seem more organized? Because I think a

lot of us are afraid to say hey you know

I've not I've looked at my schedule and

80% of the time that I'm at work I'm in meetings.

meetings.

>> Yeah. and I am going to start declining

meetings and I'm telling you that

because I need the time to get work

done. What does that signal to somebody

if you do that at work? Because I think

people are terrified to reclaim their time.

time.

>> Yeah. Well, you need to do this first of

all when it comes to meetings. One thing

I've seen actually be effective, so my

readers have actually tried this is you

talk to whoever your supervisor or boss

is. You don't come at it from the

negative angle.

>> Okay? So, like don't do it like I just

said. Don't do it like that meetings.

>> Yeah. Don't do it that way. Don't say,

"I can't get any work done because of

these meetings you're making me go to

and I want to do less." No. The

conversation you have instead is you

say, "Okay, uh there's two different

types of work. There's there's deep work

and shallow work and they're both

important, right? So deep work is when

I'm actually focusing on producing

something that's valuable. Shallow work

is like all the collaboration has to

happen around this, right? You know, we

have to pay invoices and have client

meetings. say, uh, for my particular

job, what is the ideal ratio in a week

of deep work to shallow work hours

that's going to produce the most value

for our company? Let's have this

conversation together. And you agree on

a ratio and maybe it's like 5050 or

maybe it's if you have more of a

administrative position, it's like 30%

deep work and 70% non-dework, but you

agree on a number with the goal of

producing more value for the company,

right? Then you measure Then you come

back a couple weeks later and say, "Hey,

look, I'm I'm looking at this and

because of my meetings or this or that,

I'm it's only 20% of my time is actually

deep work and 80% is meetings. What

should we do about this?" The feedback

I've gotten from people who have tried

this is people who were convinced that

no, no, no, the meeting culture here is

entrenched and this will never change

and my boss wants me in this. As soon as

they had numbers, their bosses were

like, "Oh yeah, we can make a change

about this. Why don't we protect these

two hours in the morning, these two

hours in the afternoon? that's your deep

work time. I'll tell the team no

meetings for Mel during those times.

Like people were shocked by how

accommodating their supervisors were

when they had a number and a positive

goal. So I think we have to have these

conversations, but it just has to be

directed from the angle of I want to be

even more valuable.

>> Well, I want to make sure that as you're

listening to Cal, you took away what I

think are the three most important

points. One is labeling that there's two

types of work, the deep versus the

shallow. Both are important and both

have uh like necessity, right? >> Y

>> Y

>> understanding and collaborating with the

person that you work with. This is the

second piece to say I want to add more

value and I want to do more meaningful

work. What do you think the right ratio

is between the administrative shallow

stuff that has to happen and the deeper

more focus work that I need to be able

to do to actually get the meaningful

stuff done and then coming back with

more data saying this is kind of what

I'm experiencing. How can you work with

me to get us closer to a different

ratio? That just takes it out of what

can feel like, oh my gosh, are they

going to think that I'm whining? Am I

not getting work done? am I not being a

team player and focuses everybody on

what's actually important which is

adding value focusing on what's

important that's absolutely brilliant

well done well done Cal the third

principle for slow productivity is

obsess over quality which sounds a lot

like perfectionism to me what does it

actually mean

>> we do have to be careful about

perfectionism here >> okay

>> okay

>> but the idea is if you really care a lot

about how good the stuff is you're producing.

producing.

>> There's two things that happen that

complement each other. >> Okay?

>> Okay?

>> Right? So, one, as you begin to care

more about how good is this thing I'm

producing, the busyiness that has been

afflicting you will seem less appealing.

>> So, as people get more obsessed with

quality, the value of busyiness

diminishes. So, if you want to become

more slowly productive, this is a a

great first mental step.

>> The second thing that happens is as you

get better at things, you get more

autonomy, you get more leverage. It is

easier for you to actually take busyness

out of your life because you can say,

"I'm delivering."

>> Like, "I'm really good at this. You want

me doing this really good work client or

boss or whoever is your whoever is

you're dealing with." Um, so yeah, I'm

going to I'm not doing these meetings or

I'm taking these three things off my

plate or, you know, my books are doing

well enough now. I'm not doing corporate

speaking anymore or whatever it is. So,

you get this nice complement of you

begin to care less about busyness. At

the same time, you get more ability to

minimize busyness and it becomes this

self-reinforcing loop. But perfectionism

is the sort of boogeyman floating

around. I had to really get into this in

the book because obsessing over quality

can lead to a perfectionism where

actually now you never ship anything, >> right?

>> right?

>> Because you're thinking

>> this isn't quite right. This could be

better. This could be better. And so the

the goal to this is more the process of

I want to keep getting better. I care

about how good things are, but I have to

keep shipping things. So, I'm going to

try to make this the best thing I can,

but also I only have a month to do it.

Okay, the next thing I do can be better,

though. Okay, this next thing I got to

make this the best thing I can given two

months to work on it. But turning your

focus to quality, I really think can

unlock levels of slow productivity that

are otherwise unattainable. Well, what I

love about this is that at the end of

the day, what you're forcing us to do

through the lens of the way that we view

work and time and productivity is to

slow down long enough and truly

understand what's valuable and

meaningful to you in this chapter of

your life or work. Because if you're

talking about obsessing over quality and

work and the value to the marketplace,

in my words, I would say, what is the

impact I'm making? Right? And that's

worth obsessing over. But I love that

you translated to the personal by saying

really in your personal life, think

about what is the quality of the time

that you're spending, not the quantity

of the time that you're spending doing

it. And in order to make that

determination, you have to slow down.

And it's one of the reasons then that if

you are looking at your wish list and

you got a bazillion things going on, but

you can say to yourself, look, in this

chapter of my life, my parents are

aging. One of the things that I want to

have more quality and like in terms of

obsessing over the quality of the time

that I have with my parents now,

>> which means learning to play guitar or

traveling the world right now is not the priority.

priority.

>> This type of quality is because of my

values. I love that.

>> So, how do you get back on track, Cal,

when life happens? you know, the a kid

is sick and you gotta go pick them up

and be home with them all day. There's a

thunderstorm there and all of a sudden

the Wi-Fi goes out, the rainstorm hits

and traffic backs up for two hours. What

do you do to get back on track when life

throws you off?

>> Well, I update my plan at the scale

that's required. So, so I mean something

very specific by that, right? So, at the

at the smallest scale is just a daily

scale. So, I make a plan for my day,

every workday. Do you do it the night

before or do you do it the morning after?

after?

>> I do it the morning.

>> Okay. And how to walk me through that process.

process.

>> So I actually block off my hours. So

it's like filling in a calendar for the

whole day. So I have meetings and

appointments, but then I take all the

time in between and I say, "What am I

actually doing with this?" So I don't

run my day off of a to-do list. I run it

off a schedule. So I'll say from 9 to

10, this is what I'm doing. And from

like 10:00 to 10:30, I'm on this call.

And from 10:30 to noon, this is what I'm

doing. So, I actually assign work to

time as opposed to just having a list of

things I hope to get done.

>> I want to make sure the person heard that.

that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Because that right there will change

your life.

>> Oh, it does.

>> I think most of us run our our lives off

a to-do list or a wish list thinking we

can plug it in play throughout the day,

which never actually happens. And so

you're saying take your wish list or

to-do list of all the things and then

take a look at your day and assign

a time to the task that you're going to

get done. >> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> Why is that important?

>> Well, there's two things you get. Uh

one, you get more done in that time

because a you're figuring out in advance

what's the right time to work on things.

>> So you notice like, you know, I have

this open time in the morning. that's

the right time to work on this hard

thing, not to just start doing my emails

and waiting till I kind of get warmed up

in the afternoon. You're like, "Oh, my

afternoon's very fragmented. This is the

right time." So, you're doing work in

the right time. Or you say, "I have 45

minutes between these two meetings

midday. I could take a bunch of small

errands and I could batch those all

together and get them done." The other

thing that happens is when you're

actually working on something, if you've

assigned that time, you can give it your

full focus. So you say, "I I put aside

an hour to work on this. That's all I'm

doing during this hour. My email checks,

I put that on my schedule for later." If

you if you just are going through your

day more loose, you're constantly having

to debate with yourself. You know, we're

going to have to check email at some

point. Why not now? You're like, "Well,

I'm working on this." Your mind's like,

"Well, why not now? Why not now?" And

you're constantly fighting with your

brain with the schedule. You say, "Why

not now?" Because it's we're doing it at

two. And it's easier to win that

argument. But the the subtle thing that

happens is you learn how long things

actually take. So when you build these

plans at first, and this is very

consistent, you're going to be wildly

off. You are going to probably be

cutting the time required to do things

in half. So you'll be very ambitious

with these schedules at first. It's like

I'll write this whole report then and in

15 minutes I'll clear my email inbox and

then and you're going to constantly fail

at these plans at first but you're

getting feedback about it and then over

time you begin to learn oh this is how

long this really takes. Writing these

reports really takes three hours not

one. Cleaning my inbox that's like 90

minutes it's not 20 minutes. And you

learn how long things really take which

is you begin to pace yourself

accurately. And so that's how I do it.

Um, but the key thing here is your

plan's not going to work. You're going

to get knocked off it by midday.

>> Uh, that's completely fine. You just fix

the plan for the remainder of the day

next time you get a chance. The the the

goal here is not I get a medal. If I can

come up with a plan at 9:00 a.m. that I

stick to throughout the whole day. The

goal is to have intention for your time.

And it's okay if that intention has to

change two or three times because this

meeting took too long or I had to pick a

kid up from school. That's fine. It's

not a problem. The key is next time you

get a chance, you're like, "Let me

remake a plan for the time that

remains." And it might look very

different now. Now, I might be like,

"I'm canceling this. I'm canceling that.

And in this 20 minutes, I'll make this

emergency call." And so on the daily

scale, that's how I recover is I expect

to get knocked off my plan. And then I

just fix it next time you have enough

time to sit down and I do it on paper

and just sketch out next to it. Um, you

just explained

the reason why I have struggled with

time management my entire life. I have

managed my entire life from a to-do list

instead of taking that list first thing

in the morning and assigning a

particular task to a particular time.

And I can give an example that I think a

tremendous number of people could relate

to, and I'm sure as you're listening,

you'll relate to this, which is, let's

just say it's one of those days where um

one of my kids has a soccer match that

is starting at 4:00 in the afternoon and

I know the commute is 45 minutes and I

leave work on time and then I remember

on my to-do list there was the need to

stop at the grocery store. Yep. And so I

then somehow think that I can squeeze

that into a 45 minute commute run in. I

don't have the list handy. And so now

I'm racing around again doing the same

thing in the grocery store that I'm

doing with my entire calendar, which is

just jamming something instead of having

a plan. And then when I inevitably

arrive a half an hour late and I'm

feeling stressed and overwhelmed and

busy and like I'm always failing,

this would absolutely change the way

that I live my life. And I know it seems

preposterously simple to some people.

This is a revolutionary idea to me

because I've never lived my life this way.

way.

>> So there's a cult following for time blocking.

blocking.

>> This is what you call time. See, I don't

think about this as time blocking. I

think like I think about this as

something else entirely. When I think

about time blocking, I think about like,

okay, I got to find two hours on my

calendar to get this one thing done. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> What you're basically saying is, no,

everything that is on the list that you

expect to get done today needs a time

and a task assigned to it.

>> You become like a master of your own of

your own time. The flip side of time

blocking though is it's hard.

>> Okay. What what what should I expect and

what should the person who's listening expect?

expect?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, the the positive side is

that the number I hear back from people

typically is 2x more done. So, the the

amount of things they get done actually

doubles just because they're now

actually when they're working on

something just working on that thing.

>> The flip side is that's cognitively

really hard.

>> What What do you mean? Sounds easier to

get things done.

>> Well, because you don't realize the

degree to which you mix together

different things typically to try to

make work less difficult.

>> So, you're you're an example.

>> I'm working I'm writing a book chapter.

Yeah. Yeah, but as soon as that strain

gets hard, I also jump over to email or

jump on to see what's happening over

here and I kind of jump around so I don't have to sustain focus too long on

don't have to sustain focus too long on any one thing. And you're giving

any one thing. And you're giving yourselves a lot of mental breathers.

yourselves a lot of mental breathers. When you time block, you get rid of the

When you time block, you get rid of the breathers because you're like, "No, this

breathers because you're like, "No, this is what I'm doing. This is why you get

is what I'm doing. This is why you get 2x more done.

2x more done. >> I'm just writing this chapter for the

>> I'm just writing this chapter for the next hour." Which means you're going to

next hour." Which means you're going to write twice as many words. But it's hard

write twice as many words. But it's hard because all you're doing is locked in.

because all you're doing is locked in. And then you're saying, I'm emptying my

And then you're saying, I'm emptying my inbox straight for 30 minutes doing

inbox straight for 30 minutes doing nothing but emails one after another.

nothing but emails one after another. I'm trying to get this done in this time

I'm trying to get this done in this time block. It's efficient, but it's also

block. It's efficient, but it's also hard because you're it's hard to go from

hard because you're it's hard to go from email to email and try to get all these

email to email and try to get all these things done. So I always tell people if

things done. So I always tell people if you're going to time block, you got to

you're going to time block, you got to shut down that time block schedule as

shut down that time block schedule as soon as a day is done. Don't try to time

soon as a day is done. Don't try to time block your personal time. Don't time

block your personal time. Don't time block your weekend.

block your weekend. >> So only do this at work.

>> So only do this at work. >> It's too hard otherwise. Yeah, it's too

>> It's too hard otherwise. Yeah, it's too hard. So, it's it's a cheat code for

hard. So, it's it's a cheat code for really learning about how long things

really learning about how long things take and making good use of your day,

take and making good use of your day, but it's really takes all your energy.

but it's really takes all your energy. It's making good use of your day. It's

It's making good use of your day. It's making full use of your brain, but

making full use of your brain, but that's exhausting. Wow. Wow. I would

that's exhausting. Wow. Wow. I would love to take this even a layer deeper

love to take this even a layer deeper because while so much of your research

because while so much of your research in your books are about productivity and

in your books are about productivity and time management, underneath all of this

time management, underneath all of this is really how you use these principles

is really how you use these principles to create a life that you love. How is

to create a life that you love. How is slow productivity, deep work, time

slow productivity, deep work, time management connected to living a better

management connected to living a better life? Yeah, I use the phrase the deep

life? Yeah, I use the phrase the deep life as the goal.

life as the goal. >> What is a deep life?

>> What is a deep life? >> It's a life where you're you're spending

>> It's a life where you're you're spending uh more time on the things that matter

uh more time on the things that matter and less time on the things that don't.

and less time on the things that don't. >> Right? So that that's the goal. I coined

>> Right? So that that's the goal. I coined the term during the pandemic because

the term during the pandemic because this is what I was thinking about. It

this is what I was thinking about. It was what my readers were thinking about.

was what my readers were thinking about. It was what my listeners were thinking

It was what my listeners were thinking about. And I made that connection you

about. And I made that connection you made, which is wait a second. All of

made, which is wait a second. All of these things I'm talking about, what's

these things I'm talking about, what's the goal they're really serving? It's

the goal they're really serving? It's trying to create a deeper life. one

trying to create a deeper life. one where it's really focused on things that

where it's really focused on things that matter and you're minimizing the things

matter and you're minimizing the things that don't. So slow productivity that

that don't. So slow productivity that really plays a big role in the deep life

really plays a big role in the deep life because it allows you to produce stuff

because it allows you to produce stuff you're proud of and support your family

you're proud of and support your family without having work take over your whole

without having work take over your whole life. That was a huge priority to me.

life. That was a huge priority to me. >> Deep work like that idea of focusing

>> Deep work like that idea of focusing without these distractions, without

without these distractions, without these quick checks of inboxes, right?

these quick checks of inboxes, right? That lets you produce stuff that really

That lets you produce stuff that really matters. Why does that matter? Because

matters. Why does that matter? Because it feels good. It's impactful and it

it feels good. It's impactful and it gives you autonomy. Again, as you get

gives you autonomy. Again, as you get good at things, you get autonomy, you

good at things, you get autonomy, you know, in your life. So, deep work gets

know, in your life. So, deep work gets you there. Time management is because I

you there. Time management is because I don't want to be stressed running from

don't want to be stressed running from thing to thing. I mean, so many of the

thing to thing. I mean, so many of the time management ideas I invented was

time management ideas I invented was because I didn't want to be stressed

because I didn't want to be stressed out.

out. >> You know, it was me trying to be able to

>> You know, it was me trying to be able to enjoy the things that uh I wanted to

enjoy the things that uh I wanted to enjoy. So, it's all about for me doing

enjoy. So, it's all about for me doing stuff that matters and trying to

stuff that matters and trying to minimize the stuff that doesn't. the

minimize the stuff that doesn't. the deep life is the ultimate goal. You

deep life is the ultimate goal. You know, it was funny. It came up in part

know, it was funny. It came up in part because I also give a lot of advice

because I also give a lot of advice around technology. I talk to people

around technology. I talk to people about not being on their phones too

about not being on their phones too much. And one of the issues I had with

much. And one of the issues I had with young people in particular is they're on

young people in particular is they're on their phones all the time, but they

their phones all the time, but they said, "I can't just follow your advice

said, "I can't just follow your advice to use the phone less because I don't

to use the phone less because I don't have something on the other side to do

have something on the other side to do more of. I don't have the thing on the

more of. I don't have the thing on the other side that I'm that is being uh

other side that I'm that is being uh taken away from me because I'm too much

taken away from me because I'm too much on my phone. This is all I have. And so

on my phone. This is all I have. And so that's one of the other reasons I

that's one of the other reasons I started talking about this is I realized

started talking about this is I realized I can't tell people to be less

I can't tell people to be less distracted. If if they don't have

distracted. If if they don't have something on the other side to see real

something on the other side to see real clearly once that distraction is gone,

clearly once that distraction is gone, the more they

the more they >> enjoy their life outside of distraction,

>> enjoy their life outside of distraction, the more likely they are to actually

the more likely they are to actually take steps to be less distracted. So it

take steps to be less distracted. So it was funny how those two worlds came

was funny how those two worlds came together. for somebody who that

together. for somebody who that statement really resonates with that I

statement really resonates with that I don't have something on the other side.

don't have something on the other side. What is the advice that you're giving to

What is the advice that you're giving to the students that you're seeing or the

the students that you're seeing or the graduate students that you know you're

graduate students that you know you're doing research with when that's the push

doing research with when that's the push back for why they can't get off the

back for why they can't get off the phones or they can't do deeper work?

phones or they can't do deeper work? >> Yeah. Well, one of the things I tell

>> Yeah. Well, one of the things I tell them is you have to get comfortable with

them is you have to get comfortable with your own mind. Again, I I believe this

your own mind. Again, I I believe this really strongly that one of the more

really strongly that one of the more important things that humans do is they

important things that humans do is they spend times alone with their own

spend times alone with their own thoughts.

thoughts. >> Especially when you're young, this is

>> Especially when you're young, this is where you make sense of your experience.

where you make sense of your experience. It's where you update your knowledge of

It's where you update your knowledge of yourself, that mental scaffolding, your

yourself, that mental scaffolding, your your understanding of who you are and

your understanding of who you are and what you're going through the world.

what you're going through the world. It's where you also figure out your

It's where you also figure out your values, like what matters to you, what

values, like what matters to you, what doesn't. Like, why did I feel this way?

doesn't. Like, why did I feel this way? I was at this party and I was around

I was at this party and I was around these people and I felt kind of off. Let

these people and I felt kind of off. Let me think about that. You know why?

me think about that. You know why? Because I think there's something they

Because I think there's something they were doing that I don't like that. Maybe

were doing that I don't like that. Maybe that's a value of mine that I don't like

that's a value of mine that I don't like that type of lifestyle. It's how you

that type of lifestyle. It's how you discover yourself and figure out what

discover yourself and figure out what matters. One of the biggest, I think,

matters. One of the biggest, I think, unspoken disasters of the distracted

unspoken disasters of the distracted smartphone age is that it eliminates

smartphone age is that it eliminates your ability to do that reflection

your ability to do that reflection >> because we used to until about 15 years

>> because we used to until about 15 years ago have to be alone with our own

ago have to be alone with our own thoughts all the time. You would just be

thoughts all the time. You would just be in line somewhere. You would be, you

in line somewhere. You would be, you know, waiting for your order to come at

know, waiting for your order to come at the restaurant or your friend to get

the restaurant or your friend to get there. And we were very used to just

there. And we were very used to just being with our thoughts and thinking.

being with our thoughts and thinking. And then this distraction machine came

And then this distraction machine came along,

along, >> right? and we could banish every

>> right? and we could banish every possible moment of reflection or

possible moment of reflection or solitude. And because of that, there's a

solitude. And because of that, there's a generation, one of their big problems we

generation, one of their big problems we don't talk about is without that time

don't talk about is without that time alone with their own thoughts, they

alone with their own thoughts, they don't understand themselves.

don't understand themselves. And that's why they're having a

And that's why they're having a particularly hard time turning off Tik

particularly hard time turning off Tik Tok. It's not just that Tik Tok is

Tok. It's not just that Tik Tok is addictive. It's that they where is those

addictive. It's that they where is those hundreds of hours of self-reflection

hundreds of hours of self-reflection where you figure out here's who I am and

where you figure out here's who I am and here's what I want to do. So, I often

here's what I want to do. So, I often start with let's just practice being

start with let's just practice being alone with your own thoughts. 15 minutes

alone with your own thoughts. 15 minutes at a time, one walk at a time, do one

at a time, one walk at a time, do one errand without your phone. It's It feels

errand without your phone. It's It feels terrible at first. They they really are

terrible at first. They they really are uncomfortable with it,

uncomfortable with it, >> but that's how I think we become human.

>> but that's how I think we become human. >> What would you say to somebody that

>> What would you say to somebody that feels like it's too late, that I'm

feels like it's too late, that I'm behind?

behind? >> Well, I think process over outcome.

>> Well, I think process over outcome. >> What does that mean?

>> What does that mean? >> Well, we tell ourselves stories about

>> Well, we tell ourselves stories about where other people are.

where other people are. >> Often the stories are wrong, by the way,

>> Often the stories are wrong, by the way, right? We we think this is what this

right? We we think this is what this person has done because I see it on

person has done because I see it on Instagram. The real stories are often

Instagram. The real stories are often very different. You don't realize what

very different. You don't realize what they're going through or how hard it was

they're going through or how hard it was or what they regret or maybe this

or what they regret or maybe this victory is more uh show than it is

victory is more uh show than it is actual reality. So, uh don't focus so

actual reality. So, uh don't focus so much on I need this exact outcome like I

much on I need this exact outcome like I need to be a writer and my book needs to

need to be a writer and my book needs to be number one on the New York Times

be number one on the New York Times bestseller this or that. Focus on the

bestseller this or that. Focus on the process of I'm working on things that

process of I'm working on things that matter. I'm getting better at it and I

matter. I'm getting better at it and I think it's important and it's meaningful

think it's important and it's meaningful to me.

to me. >> Right? That's the deep life. I want to

>> Right? That's the deep life. I want to write. So what matters is let's write.

write. So what matters is let's write. Let's figure out a way I can start

Let's figure out a way I can start writing in a way that's meaningful and I

writing in a way that's meaningful and I can join a writer's group and I can hone

can join a writer's group and I can hone this craft. And in that process is where

this craft. And in that process is where all the fulfillment comes out. I mean if

all the fulfillment comes out. I mean if you look at professional thinkers like

you look at professional thinkers like mathematicians who win major awards and

mathematicians who win major awards and get fields medals or what have you, what

get fields medals or what have you, what do they do right after they win the

do they do right after they win the biggest award they can in their field?

biggest award they can in their field? They go back to working on new new work

They go back to working on new new work because that's what's interesting.

because that's what's interesting. Einstein solves general relativity,

Einstein solves general relativity, spends the rest of his career working on

spends the rest of his career working on new physics problems. The most important

new physics problems. The most important result of the last 200 years, but the

result of the last 200 years, but the fulfillment was yeah, that's great. This

fulfillment was yeah, that's great. This was successful, but I like working on

was successful, but I like working on >> math. Like this is important and I want

>> math. Like this is important and I want to work and so process can be more

to work and so process can be more important than outcomes. You have shared

important than outcomes. You have shared so much with us and I cannot wait to put

so much with us and I cannot wait to put so much of what you've just advised the

so much of what you've just advised the specific tactics to use in my own life

specific tactics to use in my own life and here in the office. What are your

and here in the office. What are your parting words?

parting words? >> I tell people

>> I tell people doing fewer things but doing them better

doing fewer things but doing them better seems like a scary jump in our current

seems like a scary jump in our current world. But I think the way that we think

world. But I think the way that we think about productivity value in our current

about productivity value in our current world is broken. And it's scary at

world is broken. And it's scary at first, but once you do it, you're going

first, but once you do it, you're going to have more control over your work.

to have more control over your work. You're going to be less stressed. It's

You're going to be less stressed. It's going to change the way you think about

going to change the way you think about your life at home as well. Doing fewer

your life at home as well. Doing fewer things, but doing those things well,

things, but doing those things well, that has to be the recipe for a deeper

that has to be the recipe for a deeper life. And it's I've studied knowledge

life. And it's I've studied knowledge work for a long time. I've studied where

work for a long time. I've studied where distraction comes from, where

distraction comes from, where productivity comes from, and I've never

productivity comes from, and I've never been more convinced. That's the way to

been more convinced. That's the way to approach life.

approach life. >> Well, now I'm convinced, too, Cal. So,

>> Well, now I'm convinced, too, Cal. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for

thank you. Thank you. Thank you for making the time to come to Boston. Thank

making the time to come to Boston. Thank you for being here, for teaching us

you for being here, for teaching us everything that you taught us today.

everything that you taught us today. Everybody, get out there and get this

Everybody, get out there and get this incredible best-selling book, Slow

incredible best-selling book, Slow Productivity: The Lost Art of

Productivity: The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout. And more

Accomplishment Without Burnout. And more importantly, I think what it delivers on

importantly, I think what it delivers on is it's a road map for reclaiming your

is it's a road map for reclaiming your time, which is going to help you reclaim

time, which is going to help you reclaim your life. And it's going to help you

your life. And it's going to help you build a more meaningful life. And we all

build a more meaningful life. And we all deserve that. So, thank you. Thank you.

deserve that. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your work, Cal. And thank

Thank you for your work, Cal. And thank you for being here with us.

you for being here with us. >> Thank you, M. I loved it.

>> Thank you, M. I loved it. >> I loved it, too, Cal. And I know you

>> I loved it, too, Cal. And I know you loved it, too. And and I want to also

loved it, too. And and I want to also take a moment and thank you. Thank you

take a moment and thank you. Thank you for making the time to learn about slow

for making the time to learn about slow productivity and how to stop being so

productivity and how to stop being so busy and reclaim your life. I love the

busy and reclaim your life. I love the tools that Cal shared with you and me.

tools that Cal shared with you and me. I'm going to be implementing them. I

I'm going to be implementing them. I know you are, too. I cannot wait to hear

know you are, too. I cannot wait to hear what happens when you start to take

what happens when you start to take control of your time and you implement

control of your time and you implement all of his research into your life and

all of his research into your life and into your work. I know it's going to get

into your work. I know it's going to get better. And thank you for sharing this

better. And thank you for sharing this with people. And one more thing, in case

with people. And one more thing, in case nobody else tells you, I wanted to be

nobody else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I

sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your

believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And

ability to create a better life. And there's no doubt in my mind that

there's no doubt in my mind that everything that we learned today from

everything that we learned today from Professor Cal Newport is going to help

Professor Cal Newport is going to help you do that. All righty. I will see you

you do that. All righty. I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be

in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you

waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. And speaking of play, I'm sure

hit play. And speaking of play, I'm sure you're like, "Mel, what's the next video

you're like, "Mel, what's the next video I should watch?" Well, here's what I

I should watch?" Well, here's what I would recommend that you spend your time

would recommend that you spend your time watching next. I'll see you there.

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YouTube Transcript:How to Get Things Done, Stay Focused, and Be More Productive

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How to Get Things Done, Stay Focused, and Be More Productive