This content is an interview with author George Saunders, exploring his latest novel "Vigil," his philosophy on kindness, the role of literature, and his personal journey from Ayn Rand-influenced Republicanism to a more progressive worldview, all framed by his practice of Buddhism and his reflections on life, death, and human connection.
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I've rarely seen people at the New York
Times as excited to catch a glimpse of
someone as when George Saunders entered
our building before the end of last
year. His 2017 novel Lincoln in the
Bardau won the Booker Prize and made him
a household name. But he's been a
celebrated author of short stories and a
revered professor in Syracuse
University's MFA program since 1996.
[music] As much as people love his work,
they also seem to love him as a person,
thanks in large part to his 2013
convocation address where he talked
about the power of practicing [music]
kindness. What I regret most in my life
are failures of kindness.
Those moments when another human being
was right there in front of me suffering
and I responded sensibly. The speech
went viral and has had real staying
power. Just last fall, when Saunders was
awarded a medal from the National Book
Foundation, he was introduced as the
ultimate teacher of kindness and craft.
Saunders, who is 67, has a new novel out
this month called Vigil. [music] It's
about a climate change denying oil
tycoon on his deathbed. When we spoke,
Saunders described himself as a fallible
and flawed human being, [music]
one who's just as complicated and who
struggles just as mightily as his
unforgettable characters. [music] Here's
my conversation with George Saunders. >> [music]
>> [music]
>> George, thanks for taking the time to be
here today.
>> Oh, thanks for having me. It's great.
>> Um, you know, I have to start with a a
confession and an apology that I I met
you probably like 16 or 17 years ago at
the Brooklyn Book Festival where uh my
girlfriend at the time, who's now my
wife, was working for a magazine called
Radar. And as a gag, they uh assigned
her and some other junior people to try
and get authors to write like jokey inscriptions
inscriptions
on their books. And she, to her credit,
couldn't bring herself to do it, so got
me to do it. And I came up to you and I
I asked you.
>> I can tell you what it said. It's You
remember this?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny.
It said um something like this is from
my best friend and please assure him
that he's still a good man even though
his wife slept with his yoga or yoga
instructor or something like that. I I
do remember cuz that that's actually the
one um I felt so bad about it [laughter]
but I but I think I I think I wrote most
of it out
>> and then I kept going
>> and I thought yeah I think I backed out
at the end
>> and at one point you looked at me and
you said is this real? Yeah.
>> And I just lied to your lied [laughter]
to your face. I felt I honestly popped
into my head. It's something I feel bad about.
about.
>> What's interesting about that? No, no,
it's totally fine because when I look
back at my, you know, so-called career,
that was an anomaly. I couldn't I
thought I'm that doesn't make sense to
me. I couldn't quite So, I'm glad to
know that that it was fake.
>> It was fake. Yes. All right. So, now uh
I can move forward with a clean conscious.
conscious.
>> I can stop worrying about that husband
whose wife, you [laughter] know.
>> Um Okay. So, so your new novel, Vigil,
um it it raised a lot of questions for
me, um thematic questions,
>> including questions about determinism,
about how much um anyone is sort of
responsible for their own life or or the
decisions that they make in in their
life. Um and I'm just curious to know
your answer to that question. I I think
the book says, "Yeah, good question."
And and I I you know, there's this
Czechov quote that I'm kind of living by
lately and he says, um, [snorts] "A work
of art doesn't have to solve a problem,
it just has to formulate it correctly."
So, in this book, I think, um, there are
kind of two characters who embody that
question, and I think they're both
right. I I And so, my job, rather than
answering your question, is to,
uh, allow each of them to make the best
possible case for their view. So, uh,
with this book and with Lincoln and the
Bardau, I wrote myself into a place
where the question got more and more
profound and I found myself less and
less capable of giving a definitive
answer and you think, well, actually
that's that's not for an artist to do.
You you ratchet the question up and you
go, yeah, that's a that's a tough one.
>> Um, you said there were sort of uh
characters who represent two sides of
that that question. Just for people who
will not have yet read the book, can you
explain those?
>> Yeah. Well, there's a young there's a uh
there's a guy who's a he's one of these
sort of climate change denial architects
who's now in the last night of his life.
And he his name is KJ Boon. Uh and he's
got a couple ghosts or many ghosts who
come to see him. And one of them is the
ghost of this woman Jill. And she died
at 22 in 1976.
and her idea about things because of an
experience she had at death uh is that
nobody is to blame, nobody should take
credit. We're just these vessels that
live out sort of karma, you know, and
therefore the only thing to do is to be
kind and comfort comfort one another.
That's her that's her view. there's a
Frenchman who died in the 1800s um whose
view is not that he he's a kind of a
vengeful uh presence. So those two
throughout the book are kind of going
back and forth over how to approach this
sinner in the bed. Uh and so those are
the two viewpoints I kept trying to like
refine. You know, when I read the book,
I was, I think, more in line with Thea,
the Frenchman, where I I really was
hungry for uh KJ Boone, who who's sort
of an unrepentant uh oil magnate. Uh I I
wanted him to get some sort of judgment
to to be rendered on him. And I I just
wonder how you think about the subject
of judgment for the real world analoges
of someone like a KJ Boon, someone who
who was actually like not only directly
responsible for downplaying the climate
crisis, but uh also exacerbating it.
>> Yeah. I mean, sometimes like you, I I'd
like for a hammer to drop on them at the
end of their life. But I I think for the
most part, and just looking at my own
heart, uh when I've been in sync with
truth, I felt better. And I and when I
was not in sync with truth, I felt
poorly. That might be the only judgment
that takes place in this in this sphere.
And as for what happens next, I you
know, I don't know. Uh in in the book,
in that last 15 or 20 pages, I got a lot
of surprises. things that I I was kind
of rooting for didn't happen. Things
that came out of nowhere and surprised
me. So, for me, that's the that's the
beauty of the writing process is it's
almost like um something rises up out of
me that's a little smarter, a little
more fair, a little more curious and
hovers over the desk for a while. And
the theory is the reader over there. Uh
the [snorts] book urges that little
spiritike thing out of him as well. And
the two things merge. So you get this
brief period of um rarified
communication that weirdly seems to
inspire a suite of really nice things
like a little more empathy, a little
more engagement, a little more patience.
So I I kind of live for the moment when
that little spirit comes out of me and I
can stop being this guy and be be him
for 12 minutes, you know. Um what you
just described the how the sort of
engagement with literature um kind of
results in these uh positive side
effects. Uh a little more empathy, a
little bit more understanding, maybe a
little more patience, a little bit more
interest in in other people. um that's
sort of a a a
recurring theme in um interviews with
you and and things you've written. And I
have questions about that. Mhm. So do I [laughter]
[laughter]
>> because uh you know on on the one hand I
think we could point to countless
examples of sort of genius level writers
presumably people who are as deeply
engaged with literature as someone could
possibly be who are giant jerks. And
then con conversely uh just an example
from from my life the kindest, sweetest,
most empathetic person I ever knew was
my paternal grandmother who was
illiterate her whole life.
>> Um so what makes you believe that your
uh sort of the hopes that you have for
what literature can achieve are true and
and not just sort of a nice thing to hope?
hope?
>> Yes. Well, to the first point, I I think
there's a mistake when we we think
someone who's done something beautiful
in art must be a wonderful person. You
know, just like if somebody can can uh
play football really well, they they
might be a really bad person. They just
have a skill. Um the second thing is I
think these benefits, which I I talk a
lot about because I obser I feel it
every day. I I I see it happening. uh to
me they're they're not necessarily going
to um [clears throat] fix everything.
You know, they're they're sort of
incremental changes of consciousness on
the part of the writer and the reader.
I'm not claiming it as some kind of
universal solution, but I also think we
it's to me anyway, it's becoming clear that
writing and reading is a way of simply
underscoring that human connection is
important. that you can know my mind and
I can know yours, which is a vastly
consoling idea and we need it. Just from
my own experience, I I was um uh so many
times in my life, I felt a more
articulate version of myself emerge
after a period of writing. And when that
happens, the world changes, you know. Um
how how does the world change? Well, the
first time, you know, the first time
that I uh I was in Rochester and I was
writing my first book mostly on the bus
on the way and I I just would take two
or three pages and because I only had
those pages, I would concentrate so hard
on a kind of a Rubik's cube editing. Is
this better? Is this better? And after
[clears throat] a week or so of that,
the language in which I was thinking was
higher, more precise. Um, and suddenly
your perceptions change. Of course they
do. you know, you the the instrument
with which you're perceiving becomes
rarified and more precise. So, so that
um is is maybe the most meaningful thing
that's ever happened to me. You know,
you that one could alter you could alter
yourself through [snorts] an activity.
Um so, I just kind of sometimes I think
I just extrapolate that outwards to the
rest of the world. Maybe too much, but
>> that that time in your life when you
were in Rochester, you were working for
basically as a technical writer,
>> right? Do you ever think about for
yourself whether it was on on some level
inevitable that you would choose a
different life or or write your way into
a different life? Is there is there a
version of George Saunders life where
you do stay as a technical writer and
>> Oh, sure. Sure. I that was one I mean I
>> So that was a possibility.
>> Yes. And I I I had planned to be a
writer for a long time and then it
wasn't happening. And I could feel that
ship of literary ambition just sailing
away without me very happily. So there
was a time that I now remember very
fondly where I just was like, well maybe
that just wasn't meant for you. Uh but
keep trying, you know, keep try to write
try to publish the story a year was the
idea. And it was uh that was a very
sweet period because the idea suddenly
um the activity of writing got separated
from ambition as much as I've ever had
it separated. It was very zen activity
just um stealing a maybe 20 minutes a
day to concentrate on a bit of pros and
felt very pure. And um I also have seen
you mention in passing a couple times uh
about how when you were a a younger man
you were sort of a an Ein Rand
Republican. [clears throat] >> Um
>> Um
>> do you remember how you came to to those
beliefs and then how you um wound up
rejecting those those beliefs?
>> Well, I had so not how you're thought of now.
now.
>> No. No. No. I um well I think I came to
it out of a kind of a vast insecurity. I
I had just uh I had a couple of high
school teachers who intervened on my
behalf and got me into the Colorado
School of Minds for geoysics. So I was
so far behind the curve. I I hadn't
really done much work in school. Went
out there and I was just barely hanging
in and that was a really jarring thing.
So along comes Atlas shrugged and at
least the way I read it was you're
special, you know, because you're not um
you believe in selfishness. And at that
point, just I got caught up on you're
special. That was enough, you know. Um
so I think I started kind of just using
it as the one way in that environment I
could feel uh special, you know, could
feel could feel that I for all of my
external defects inside I was a a
glowing night of objectivity. Um, and
also the other thing was I remember
reading Atlas Shrugged on a on a trip
with some high school friends and at
that point I wasn't going to go to
college. I was in a band. That was the
And there was a guy in the band who knew
a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy in
the Eagles. That was our Yeah,
>> still my career plan. Um, but I was
reading Atlas Shrugged in this car and
it was I hadn't read a novel since maybe
Johnny Tmaine in third grade and just
the novelness of it, you know, the
places and the the way it called up a
world in my mind and the fact that it
was 1,084 pages. So that um was actually
what I love was she was a novelist. And
so I I kind of you know I think I voted
for Reagan the first time
a lifelong regret but then um uh at some
point I I graduated from the school of
minds went overseas and was working in
the oil fields and um was walking home
possibly a little drunk one night in
Singapore and there was a big foundation
of a hotel that was going up and there
was some movement in the bottom and I
kind of staggered up to the fence and
there were I mean hundreds of what I
came to see were elderly uh Malaysian
Singaporean women clearing the site by
hand. They were lit, you know, carrying
boulders off. And something in that
moment I just it just snapped and I made
the connection between those women and
my extended family uh many of whom were
struggling with the kind of the big boot
of capitalism at that point. And I
thought, "Oh, I'm on their side." So, so
something in that instant clicked and
then uh I was just much more open to
sort of what we would now call
progressive ideas. So, that kind of
magical thing where you well for the
first time I thought contraand these
people are the result of a system this
this thing that's happening to them the
way they're behaving the difficulty
they're having isn't entirely just them
you know and that in turn connected with
my childhood Catholicism you know.
>> Oh, how so? Well, I always loved um I
think it's the woman at the well when
Jesus, you know, uh is able to, as I
understood as a kid, comes up to this
woman who's scorned by other people and
goes, "I I see you,
you know, and and I like you. I love
you. I I I forgive I always thought that
was such a novelistic move, you know,
and that seems to me part of the the the
magic of fiction because in fiction I
can make a person that I really don't
like, like this guy in the book, uh he's
a stinker, but then through the kind of
weird side door of trying to make the
language about him more interesting,
you you start sinking through the levels
of his stuff and pretty soon, I don't
know if you like them, but you don't
like and dislike become almost useless
phrases. you you are him. You have been
him. Uh and then
that beautiful thing where um
I I think specificity
negates judgment. So as I work harder
and harder to know that guy through the
things he's said and done and seen and
remembers, my [snorts] my sense of
wanting to judge him just becomes kind
of it seems juvenile. I anybody can
judge. Let's just go deeper and deeper.
And I I really cherish that feeling. And
of course, it doesn't last beyond the
page. And I'm sure if I met his real
life corally, I' I'd be sneering at him.
But what a what a blessing, you know, to
to uh for a few minutes a day kind of
ascend up out of your habit.
>> Do you do you think there are uh
characters or real life people for whom
you couldn't generate that kind of
empathy for?
>> That's a great question. I think here's
the thing. I don't think there's a
person like that I couldn't generate the
empathy for, but it might be fil
empathy. So I think if you look at
someone who's really uh psychopathic or
>> I mean I was wondering if you could
write a a a fictional version of Trump.
>> Sure. I mean I I I think one could for
sure and it would be very interesting
because I I see a lot of vulnerability
in him and a lot of you know but what
I've noticed is and I'm not I'm not I
haven't written about this so I'm not
sure I'm right [snorts] but that the the
tools that a writer brings to this thing
[snorts]
you you're you're constantly putting
yourself in that person's shoes but in
fact you're not in their shoes. You're
you pretending to be in their shoes. So
I I I definitely performance. Yes. And
you could come up with a a a version
that was a little too soft and didn't
truly account for what was making the
person behave that way. That's something
I'm really interested in. So with this
book especially, I'm interested because
I ended up liking this guy more than I
thought I would. And the question is, is
he an accurate representation of the
people who actually did these things?
and that that uh sort of um kind of
epiphany you had where you you saw the
the women clearing the the rubble opened
your eyes a little bit to to
the dark side of capitalism, I guess.
And I I wonder
if your
thinking or feeling about capitalism has
been affected by the fact that you've
now done so well. I mean, as far as
writers go, like purely from a market
perspective, you're doing very, very well.
well.
>> Yes. I'm a big believer in capitalism,
though. I think it's totally holy. [snorts]
[snorts] [laughter]
[laughter]
>> No, I I mean I I I think it's actually honestly
honestly
if you have some success, it actually
makes a better vantage point to see the
unfairness of the whole thing. So, I
think in my in my lifetime, capitalism
has gotten much meaner and much uh more
beautiful. It's it's I had a friend the
writer Michael Herrer who wrote the
probably yeah dispatches he we were
friends and he said one time he had this
kind of beautiful 60s uh way of speaking
he said he said man when the fascists
come back they're not going to wear the
jack boots because they already saw that
that doesn't work. So capitalism now is
is is gleaming it's it's as if it's
coming from within us. We all buy into
these um strange fictions like
shareholder value. So I I I'm much more
um [snorts]
uh uh a I mean I'm I'm as aware of it
and I think in some ways if you're doing
okay it's a little harder to be aware of
it because you it's very human to
mistake good fortune for virtue. Um so yeah
yeah
>> why do you refer to shareholder value as
a fiction?
>> Well it's not a fiction but it's not as
important as people think it is. I mean
it it seems to be uh
to me it seems that we we use that to
excuse a lot of that we
wouldn't put up with normally you know
uh you know that I don't know if I can
articulate this but it seems to me in
our time we've become very comfortable
with a a certain mental move and it's
something like I know what the right
thing is
wait there and then we turn and we do
something else I think it's this this
pervasive it's one of the reasons our
politics is the way it is. I mean, our
president calls a reporter a pig and
some percentage of people. So, well, I
know I would never do that. I would
never I have a wife. I have a daughter.
Never would I call a person a pig.
However, then we turn. So, so I think
this is I I again, this is just a first
thought, but I'm interested in in the
way that we can know very well that
certain enlightenment values are true
and important and make an excuse.
Sometimes it's shareholder value to turn
and look away from us.
>> Yeah. Sometimes the excuse is as simple
as it's easier.
>> It's easier. Yeah. Or, you know, there's
also I mean, isn't it isn't it a drag to
have to say in a scolding tone,
I don't do that, you know, or um that
[clears throat] strikes me as low. We we
have I think maybe starting back with
reality TV, we lost our ability to say
that's toxic and I don't want it. And so
we say what's toxic, but I'm not going
to be a a pri, you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Does that does that resonate with you at all?
all?
>> Well, it does. I think it also connects
to uh a lot of [snorts]
sort of the backlash against uh of the
sensoriousness of the left where people
there's the idea that young men were in
particular were like the people on
they're just always finger wagging at
everything. I'm not interested in that. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> I think it's it's connected. Well,
somewhere in there there I mean there
the the
It's interesting because uh going out
into America I see a fairly
medium functional culture with pretty
good civility. Uh and the the politics
doesn't seem to correspond to that. And
I think it may be about this issue of h
of um
who gets to throw the flag, you know,
who gets to um Yeah. Anyway, that's for
the next book. I got to think about it.
Um, you know, I I saw uh recently you
you won uh sort of a lifetime
achievement award from the National Book
Foundation and uh in in one of the
introductory speeches to your to your
acceptance speech uh you get ready for
this one. You were referred to as the
ultimate teacher of kindness and of
craft. Um and [laughter]
and uh you know you're you're often
positioned in terms of uh kindness and
and goodness almost uh I'm going to be a
little hyperbolic here but like almost
as a kind of uh secular saint
>> uh and and you know your eyes just roll
but uh but but I wonder
>> I was just keep myself from levitating.
Sometimes I have to roll the eyes and
not [laughter]
um I just wonder if we can complicate
that a little bit. Uh uh like when do
you struggle with kindness?
>> Oh, every I mean that that's I mean the
whole kindness thing came out of a talk
I did at Syracuse and the point was not
it's easy just it's that it's really
impossible and when I look back at my
life the things I really do regret are
the the times when I fell out of that in
some dramatic way. It was never um I was
never making the case that I had got it
cuz I really don't I'm anxious and I'm
uh sometimes pretty grumpy and I'm also
really way too busy. So that that I I
think the secular saint business just I
think it has to do with having decent
public manners actually in which I was
taught in Chicago. So I I don't I I
that part is becoming increasingly uh um uh
uh
I I'm resisting that that narrative
because it jars with what I know about
myself as an actual person. So to you
know to say it's important to be kind
does not mean I got it you know.
>> But when when do you struggle with it?
Are there are there moments?
>> Every day. I mean every day. We have a
an elderly dog at home who's very sick,
you know, and so that's just an ongoing
thing of trying to um figure out what
she needs and not and meanwhile I've got
to call in 10 minutes, but you know, so
so I mean it's it's it's pervasive.
>> I'm not sure. I mean, I I I'm aware of
the of this kind of riff about about
kindness, but really I mean, in my
experience, it came from one speech that
I gave
>> which was then turned into which uh I
think it was then reprinted maybe in in
the Times.
>> Yes, I think that's right. and and went
>> like viral or protoviral and then it was
uh made into a book that I think also
did well.
>> Yeah. But then so then that you have
made this this claim that it would be
good for us all to be more kind and then
after that you go on a tour and you get
to dig into that bit and go huh okay so
what does it actually mean? Well it's
not it's not nice niceness is not the
same thing. H and you can kind of reason
your way to see that kindness has
something to do with uh awareness. In
other words, if kindness is being of
benefit to people within your sphere,
okay, well, how how do you know if
you're being of benefit or not? You
know, so it was an interesting that talk
was an interesting way for me to realize
that maybe I had equated kindness and
niceness in too easy of a way.
Disconnect those and then it gets to be
a real lifelong um ch. But I think I
think now what I think is that kindness
so-called has so much to do with your
ability to be in in a moment without a
whole lot of monkey mind going on cuz
then you're more likely to be able to
posit what could be helpful in that
situation and make make the decision.
But um yeah, I think people who who are
interested in ideas of of kindness and
togetherness, I think that's a basically
a self- selecting group of people. But
for this other group of people who maybe
aren't thinking about or don't care
about questions of of kindness or um
what it means to degrade our shared
world. Um is there anything you you
would suggest that they read to to maybe
just open up the door just a little bit?
Well, I I I want to I want to push back
on your on your framing because I think
even the worst herd on the planet, [snorts]
[snorts]
>> if you fall down in front of him, he's
going to help you up generally. You
know, I I actually think that's true as
a as a kind of working hypothesis. So
then we get to a a different statement
of your question is why why does a
person who in his own life does value
kindness and does love his parents love
his kid why does he hit the switch on
whatever harmful thing he's doing that's
a deep question my theory is most people
don't operate from the Kruella Deville
school of evil like yeah yeah yeah I
suck you know I don't think so uh so
then it gets really interesting okay so
why Then if you sat down this person and
said, "Do you believe in kindness?" "Of
course I do." blah blah blah. Why then
at the moment of truth did they make the
decision that they make? And I think,
you know, you can look at our politics
right now. Um and I don't really have an
answer, but I'm very interested in some
of the stuff that comes out of the the
White House uh press thing is really
it's post Orwell, post Kafka, the the
things that are being said. But I'm
guessing that if you set that person
down, they wouldn't disagree with us in
principle. So, so that's a very rich
question and I don't think anybody knows.
knows.
>> Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have expected
you had the answer.
>> No, no, [laughter]
but you know, we don't have to solve it.
We have to formulate it correctly and
you just actually did, you know. So,
>> um I'm sure you've been asked a version
of this a million times, but I'm curious
in this uh moment here with you. What
what are what are sort of the the links
between um uh Buddhism which you
practice a and uh and kindness and your art?
art?
Well, for me it's just the um
the awareness that we have thoughts and
we don't really they they sort of self-generate.
self-generate.
>> Yeah. and they dominate us and we
mistake [clears throat] those thoughts
for us.
So I mean you you could go through your
whole life thinking that you are this
cloud of thoughts. So in both uh
Buddhist practice and writing you have a
little bit of a chance to go, oh those
are just those aren't they're they're
they're like brain farts. they're just
happening spontaneously and I didn't
actually create them and I not sure I
really want to take ownership of them
but and at the same time they're they're
affecting my my body. So, so the the
thing is you get to just get clear for
just long enough to to recognize them as
being separate from who you actually
are. Um and I think that would lead to
some form of of kindness, you know,
because why why if I think like why am I
unkind? It's almost always because I'm
in a hurry and because because I'm
anxious. So for me the baby steps I can
do meditation and I can do a little
writing and then be aware of how
inadequate I am for the rest of the day. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter]
>> Um, I also uh do meditation and I I
think the uh
>> the the most beneficial aspect of it for
me by far life-changingly beneficial and
it's still something I you know it's not
something I've solved but it's gotten
better is just what you described the uh
awareness that the thoughts are coming
in and you don't have to act on the
thought you don't have to uh treat the
thought as correct or more important
than any other thought. If you you can
just have that one little split second
of like, "No, that's a thought. I can
make a different choice." >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> To have a different thought or to
respond differently to that choice.
>> One of the reasons I'm a big advocate of
meditation is because I've really
slacked off. >> Oh.
>> Oh.
>> In the last two or three years. And
that's interesting to see the old
neurosis come back. I [snorts] mean, I
>> tell me more about that. How does how
does that show? I mean I just because of
certain life life [snorts] things and um
uh I I I went from um meditating quite a
lot to not very much at all with it like
I'm going to get back to that and I can
just notice a lot of feelings and um
thought pattern from actually from
adolescence even just kind of the monkey
mindedness of it all and um coming back
just just like the forest encroaching a
little bit. So that was I mean I suppose
mostly we when we say oh we we
understand meditation it's because we
push the trees back a little bit and you
ah clarity and then I think also well
when I was writing Lincoln and the Bart
we were doing a lot of meditation and I
could feel that uh there was a certain
kind of thinking
that I really had associated with my
personality which had to do with kind of
snark you know or sarcasm or kind of
>> uh going into a situation and instantly
me wanting to kind of make a little
light fun of it, you know. Well, under
this meditation that kind of just it
just it receded slightly. It receded
enough that I could go, "Oh, that's a
habit." And then suddenly that um that
book came in actually, you know, which
that book took a lot of uh I had I had
to increase my tolerance for earnestness
in that book and for letting people just
tell their stories without trying to
fancy it up with my wit, you know.
uh that wouldn't have been possible
except for that that force got pushed
back a little bit. Uh so it's
interesting you know to see it come back in
in
>> just because you mentioned Lincoln and
the Bardau which sort of is uh about
figures in the afterlife uh you know
when I started reading Vigil the new the
new novel I thought and there were more
figures from from the afterlife sort of
shephering someone along I thought he's
doing angels again.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
Are you trying to work something out?
>> Subtitle doing Angels. Angels again.
>> Angels again. Yeah.
>> Are are you thinking about something or
trying to work through something about
the afterlife or death or
>> you know not I mean yes. I've always
been death obsessed as a little kid. I
remember being in Emerald, Texas and
staying with my grandparents and the
room I was in was one room away from
theirs and they were ancient. They were
like 40 or something, you know. And I
was sleeping and I could hear them both
breathing breathing. And I'm like, "Oh
god." And it just occurred to me that
that breathing was what kept them here
and that they were old and at any minute
they could stop breathing and it kind of
listening for that, you know, and and
just finding that totally unacceptable
and strange, you know. Um, so I'm
thinking about a lot. I mean, I think
it's it's I it's
>> And what are the thoughts? Um,
I'm just so happy it's not going to
happen to me. That would Yeah. No, I
mean I think I think you know when when
your first your first memory,
you're kind of sure that you're in a
movie and you're the star of it. Your
mom and dad are co-stars and there's a
cast of millions out there, you know,
all kinds of sets, but you're the you're
the main thing. Also, there's that
second idea that you you're not leaving.
You're you know, that schmuck died, but
you're not going to. That that feeling.
And then also I think that feeling that
you're separate, you know, that you are
David and everyone else is not. So all
those I think are pretty I mean they're
they're physical. They're Darwinian.
They make sense, but they're all untrue.
So death is the moment when somebody
comes and says, you know, that those
three things that you've always thought
of, I I have to tell you they're not
true. [snorts] You know, you're not
permanent, you're not the most important
thing, and and uh you're not separate.
[snorts] So that's I I know I just can't
I do I think about it a lot, I think.
you know, but but I don't find it a more
I find it kind of a joyful thing because
it's just a reality check. I mean, it
really is true that that light could
fall on us and then
>> it's not true, is it? [laughter]
>> We're good. We're good. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but maybe relatedly, um I I think you
you you write about salvation so often. um
um
in including in the circumstance of of
someone either uh near death or or uh
approaching death and sort of h how they
might be saved in some way.
>> And uh
>> which I I know people
think of you sometimes as a Buddhist
writer, but I'm like, no, that's the
that's the Catholic writer and him is
writing about that. But I'm
>> I'm just I just want to know what you
think about salvation. Is what what is
Well, I think probably it's just any any
instance when you step out of those
three delusions that we just talked
about. You know, I don't know about
after afterlife. I don't know about
that. Um, but I think any moment even in
this life when you get clear of that
those that trio of delusions, you're
saved because because then what's what's
to be afraid of? I mean, if you The
reason I don't want to die is because
I'm me, you know, I'm so fond of me and
and um even when I'm not fond of me, I'm
quite attached to me. And I've had a
couple of times in my life, just
briefly, where I could feel, oh, okay,
there's a little distance there between
this between me and self, I guess you
would say. If that if you could get a
lot of distance, then death would just
be no problem. Can can you share one of
those uh experiences you had of when
when sort of the
>> the world opened up a little?
>> It was just nothing particularly
magical. It just after long periods of
meditation uh I I I think it probably
manifests in small ways you know that
you're your feelings don't get as hurt.
uh you you um you know you see an
unflattering picture of yourself and you
go a that's funny you know but um you
know I mean the teachings that I've read
that that's the indication is that self
is the problem self is also so beautiful
you know it's so wonderful to have a
self and that's in that's in the book
too I think I just want to uh zoom out
for a little bit here at the end um so
you're uh one of those writers who um uh
people will say things like oh you know
they they anticipated this aspect of
contemporary life or or this bizarre uh
paranoid detail uh feels like something
out of those writers uh books. Um and
actually I was I was just using uh uh
Amazon the other day
>> and [clears throat] uh I got a prompt [laughter]
[laughter]
to use its it's AI bot Roffus uh and I
thought oh AI Roffus that's something
from [laughter] a George Saunders novel
AI Roffus. Um, and do do you ever have
the experience of seeing something or
experiencing something and thinking,
gosh, that seems like something that I
would have thought of or came for my book.
book.
>> Yeah. I mean, and and um I think that,
you know, in a sense that as a writer,
you you're kind of trying to be a canary
in the coal mine and I think you're
doing it by having the the low thought
thing so you can actually observe the
data. And so, uh, yeah. I know there are
a lot of things that and actually my
usual reaction is, oh man, I kind of
underestimated it. So I I think part of
the fun is to pick up on just a little
hints early hints of something and um
but yeah.
>> Is there is there anything you feel like
you're picking a hint up of now?
Anything that
>> Yeah. And I mean it's not a new idea,
but I think that the um the rate at
which we're being encouraged to forego
humanto human activity that that's an
amazing thing. And it seems to me driven
by uh I mean not to be not to sound like
a a cliche but it is driven by by
corporate hegemony. And so there are
there are forces and and the the weird
thing is these forces are full of
wonderful people but these forces are
are subtly encouraging us to see a human
to human reaction as somehow second
level. [snorts] Uh and I think we're
going along with it sort of. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> I mean, I get I get emails from from non-fans
non-fans
saying things they would never say in
person. They would never, you know, and
I I get a low enough volume of those
that I can respond. And I think without
exception, every time I've done it, the
person has backed off. I had one guy who
he sent he sent me an email
uh about a talk I'd given it and he used
a word. I don't know if I can use it
here, but it's it was a great word. Um
we'll bleep it. Let's just say it.
>> Okay. Well, he he said that talk was
truly cocksuckworthian. [laughter] So I
I wrote him back and I said, you know,
I'm a person. I'm sitting here in my
pajamas. You just ruined my day. Uh and
you have the advantage of me. You know
my name. I don't know your name. Let's
talk. And so there's a two or three day
silence. And then he said, I won't
apologize. I was drunk and I didn't
think you would read that, you know.
Okay. Okay. I understand. And we went
back and forth for a few rounds. So I I
think the the um
the the number of interactions a day
that we now have that have that kind of strange
strange
conditionality of impersonality are it
it's skyrocketed and I think it it's
corrosive that that to me is the major
throughine of my life actually not just
the last few years but from 1958 to now
I think somehow we're we're um
we're [music] we're devaluing humanto
human contact, which is really the only
thing that there is.
>> Thank you so much for taking all the
time to talk with me today. I really I
really enjoyed it and I'm looking
forward to you to speaking to you again
on Friday.
>> Sounds good.
>> A few days.
>> On the interview, we talked to our guest
twice. [music] So, a few days later,
Saunders and I spoke again when he
returned to his home in Santa Monica. We
[music] talked about what he gets out of
teaching and his memories of his early
days as a writer.
>> Hey, David.
>> Hi, George. Good to see you again.
>> So, I I have uh some questions about
teaching and and academia, but before I
get to those, there there's was uh one
question I asked you earlier and I
thought your answer was was a bit of a
dodge or maybe I just asked the question >> probably.
>> probably. [laughter]
[laughter]
But I I I had asked about this this idea
that um sort of engaging with literature
can make readers and writers uh sort of
more expansive or or more uh generous um
despite the counter examples. And you
answered by saying basically you know
the the art is when it's working it
should be better than the person who
made it. Um, and and I thought, well,
that's the the question. It's not really
about whether or not the art is better
than the artist who made it. It about
sort of uh what effect literature and
reading can can have on us. And um,
>> you know, I realize like maybe it's a
silly question because the truth is
probably for some people, you know,
engaging with reading is makes them a
better person. For some people it
doesn't. But maybe the the deeper
question is why that idea seems to
matter to you.
>> Well, actually, honestly, it it I I'm
really interested in what it does to an
individual at a given time. That that's
really about as far as I I mean to uh
you know, sort of preach sometimes. I
think it sounds like I'm saying
literature can cure us. It it can't. It
never has. So I think I for me it's
always ser to go down to the incremental
level and say well on a given day if a
given person reads a given check off
story something will happen. Now that I
also kind of would poke at if I've ever
used the phrase better person I'll I'll
retract it because I don't know that it
makes you solidly perpetually a better
person. I think it just
>> expansive and more generous.
>> Yeah, I think that's true. as long as we
take the time frame down a bit, you
know, for that 40 seconds after you've
been nailed by a story, you're kind of a
little bit different. So, I think what I
probably believe in is I think we
discussed it sort of the idea of the
sacramental value, which is if you get
your bell rung once and in that moment
of having your bell rung, you are more
expansive or whatever I said, then the
next time you're not that, then you um
you might just go, "Oh, yeah. Okay, I'm
not fixed as this lower version of
myself. I can I there's a way back, you
know. So, um in my in my calmer moments,
I think my my views of literature are
more specific and more local and every
now and then I get a little bit revved
up and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] But
but even the idea of of literature
having um potentially some sacramental
value um to
>> to me that sort of like
>> edges towards uh a justification and I I
find I'm always very wary of any sort of
justification for art beyond it its own
sake. And I just wonder if you what do
you feel like literature needs or
benefits from any justification beyond
the fact of the writer liking to do it
and people liking to
>> You're exactly right. As soon as you say
th this justifies art, you've made it um
have to earn its dinner and and some
autocrat is going to come in and say,
"Oh, I don't think your art is is doing
what we want it to do." So, I agree with
you and and in in the end, art answers
to nobody. You know that I I totally
agree with that. However, I think there
are ways in which in our time we've sort
of poo pooed the power of literature and
made it kind of a a niche sort of quaint
thing even in our educational structure.
So I actually do believe and this is now
I'll I'll I'll reverse all my [laughter]
pre but I do think you know from imagine
okay this is a you know imagine a world
where fourth and fifth graders read a
check off story a week and you'd have to
pick the stories but there are some
really beautiful ones that any fourth
and fifth grader could get then through
that doorway you teach them to unpack a
text you know uh you teach them to have
confidence their own reading ability
their own perception of the world I I
think that would actually be an
amazingly powerful thing as as a culture
if you could somehow build that into the
curriculum. And you know, I I can say
anecdotally, you know, our our daughters
went to a really good school and at one
point uh this fifth grade or sixth grade
teacher was was teaching Ambrose Beers
some of those really dark Civil War
non-fiction pieces, beautifully written,
very ornate and and tough. And the
subject material was dark as hell, you
know, and uh and some parents objected
to it. It was too hard. Okay. and they
took it off. They they got rid of it.
Nobody was saying that calculus was too,
you know, too difficult. Calculus was
causing their kids trouble. So, I I do
tend to be a little bit of of a stickler
on that. I think we could we could do
better, you know. But but um so
something I was thinking about in
relation to um your career as a as a
teacher and and and uh your engagement
with students at at Syracuse is um sort
of this uh feeling I don't know how true
it is but this this feeling that the the
place of fiction in the culture uh is
greatly diminished from where it was I
don't know maybe even when you were
getting your started in the in the mid
and late '9s, you know. Um,
>> uh, the idea that whereas somebody like
David Foster Wallace or maybe was a Tom
Wolf or whomever could sort of be seen
as almost an avatar for the culture
through their work, you know, and now
>> the writing of fiction is like an
artisal pursuit or something like that.
And and I I wonder if
>> I'm gonna use that. That's exactly
right. An artisal Yeah. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter]
>> If if if that um that change or or that decline
decline
is something that you've noticed uh in
terms of the the kinds of work that your
students want to do or or what they see
as the as the function or utility or
purpose of their work.
>> Yeah. I I think they're kind of like me
and that it's the one thing that they
really can do. You know, I mean, when I
when you like there's a lot of in my
mind, there's a lot of thinking about
just this topic, the the decline of
literature, the role as a writer. But I
recognize that as being a little bit of
my kind of everyday cloud mind that
actually, if I go a step deeper than
that, the real answer is it's the one
thing I've been good at in my life. And
it's the one thing that really lights me
up even now when I do it. And I think my
students have the same thing. So I, you
know, I think if if if nobody was
reading it, I think I might still be
inclined to do it. the the sweetest
thing for me is that feeling of the
story coming out of the stone. You know,
you're just farting around and it's just
text. It's just all typing and then you
keep revising and suddenly it's not just
typing anymore. It's actually something
else. So, I I think that's the the real
answer. So, even if uh the role has declined,
declined,
what am I going to do? You know, uh
>> and your students you think feel similar?
similar?
>> I think so. I think what they're
obsessively trying to do, and I remember
this myself as a student, is just uh
where am I in all this? Like where where
do I sound like myself? Where am I where
am I doing something that nobody else
could do? And that is such an obsessive
pursuit. Uh, and I I think that's what
they're what they're after still because
when in my teaching when I get on that
when I for example if I give them an
edit [gasps] that sort of reveals them
to themselves I mean they're so it's
such a good feeling between us you know
or or sometimes the best thing is when
you notice that somebody is has a habit
uh usually out of allegiance to some
other writer or some previous
incarnation of themselves and then you
just say you know seems like you have
this habit
and they go, "Oh, thank you." You know,
uh or or sometimes even like there'll be
a student who has a a shining moment of
real sincerity or earnestness or or
something in the in the story that the
sort of hipster in them has been keeping
out [snorts] and just to lightly put
your hand and go go on that and say, you
know, as an older person, this is really
resonant to me. This really is
beautiful. you know, to give in order to
give them permission to come out of the
kind of, you know, the the protectionism
of being perma edgy, you know. So, yeah.
[laughter] So, it's a it's a really
beautiful job.
>> Do you ever get who who they are wrong? [clears throat]
[clears throat] >> Um,
>> Um,
I don't think only because I don't I
don't really enforce it much. I think
the more gently you do the work, the
less likely you are to mess somebody up,
you know, whereas in the sort of an old
model was I know who's got what, you
know, I can identify the one. You don't
have it, kid. And I really don't like
that. It it just forestalls so many
possibilities. And and I can remember
times in my life where if a an authority
figure had read my work, they'd have
gone, "Oh, no, no, no, no. You just go
back to engineering." So, I I tend to do
I'd rather do uh I'd rather miss some
opportunities and do less
>> than be Mr. Confidence and squash
somebody. Yeah.
>> You know, I I I realized that uh sort of
just underneath uh a lot of what we've
talked about and and also it's sort of
your your new book in a way is the idea
of karma.
>> Uh and I thought I just want to know do
you believe in karma? Yeah, because
actually, you know what was interesting
is when I started to read about it in
the Buddhist tradition, that word just
means cause and effect. So, so it it
just means the ultimate cause and effect
that's at play. Now, we can't always
discern it. That's that's why karma is,
you know, karma is difficult because we
we think we're we're doing something,
but the the real rules of cause and
effect are are are not available to us.
So you have unforeseen consequences. But
yeah, I think I think karma for me is
just um the super super long range cause
and effect that operates. For sure it
does. I mean and then um
>> does it operate on an individual level?
>> Sure. Sure. I mean in the sense that if
you um
>> if you have a bad habit of mind for
example you know
>> of course it follows you everywhere you
know even if you don't know what it is
and many of the side effects you never
you never know about them you know so
that's that's um yeah that's a beautiful thing
thing
>> do you have any sense of of how you're
doing karmically
>> no I mean no that's exactly it you know
I think when people use it in a kind of
you know groovy way they oh man you know
that guy uh that guy got the promotion
over me karma is going to bite him in
the ass. That's because that is
just means karma means whatever I want
to happen will happen because God likes
me. What about you? I mean are you a
karma person? Do you do you
>> uh I I I don't think there is any karma
on an individual level. I'm just
skeptical that people who have done evil
in the world are uh
>> are are necessarily reaping what they're
sowing or or aware of the ways in which
they might be reaping what they're
sewing. But I wonder if if is it and I'm
just spitballing, but I wonder if if the
punishment isn't really dependent on one
being aware. So, for example, let's say
that um that I went around with these
headphones in my ears really jammed in
there and I couldn't hear anything. I
love them. They feel great, you know,
and then I get out on the street and
there's a there's for some reason
there's a string quartet. Uh I wander
by. I don't hear it because of my
obsession with these headphones.
Okay. Am I punished?
Not really. Not I mean I don't know that
I'm punished. I'm not overtly punished.
But somehow
>> there's a difference in that experience
versus the one with the headphones out.
Maybe that's not very satisfying. I mean
you think oh Hitler missed out on a lot
of opportunities. You know that's not
not so satisfying. [laughter]
>> But I mean that's one the book is
struggling with that very question for sure.
sure.
>> Yes. Yeah. Um, and so the the last thing
I want to uh ask you is um you know I I
I uh reread uh Civil War Land and Bad
Decline. And in in the newer or some
some newer edition of it, there's an
author's note
>> where where you sort of write about
where you were at in your life. That's
your your first published collection
where you were at in in your life uh
when you were working on those stories.
and and very beautifully you talk about
uh or you write about even though you
were you know in your 30s kind of uh
struggling a little economically having
to ride your bike uh to to work in Syri [laughter]
[laughter]
not not easy. Um you you were were aware
at the time that it was kind of a
magical moment in your life. You had a
young family. you were, you know, sort
of trying to trying to make make your
way. Um, and I I thought it was um
very very uh interesting and moving that
that you you were aware
in in 1995 or whenever that was that
like, oh, this is this is a special
special time for for these reasons. And
I I I wonder if you have any similar
awareness about where you are now at 67
or are able to articulate
>> what it is that is good about your life.
>> Oh yeah. I hope I hope so. I mean yeah I
had you know a moment um a couple months
ago I went back to my alma mater the
school of minds in Colorado and um so
the the the place it was sort of an all
day series of events. So they put me in
this one building. It kind of gave me a
little temporary room office and um I as
I went upstairs I thought, "Oh my god, I
used to live here." And so the room next
to the room they gave me was my bedroom
from a really fraught year in my college
experience. Uh and it was so then we
went through the the day. It was really
great. Met a bunch of lovely people and
did a talk and everything. And at the
end I was collecting my things and I
just got to stand in that window for a
minute. It was the desk used to be right
at this window and uh it was the
weirdest thing, you know, to kind of cuz
that guy that I was was so ambitious and
so stupid, you know, so like not in
touch with how one went about having a
writing life or what it would mean and
really I mean like grotesely out of
touch, but he was pretty earnest, you
know, and I remember sitting at that
desk reading Thomas Wolf look homeward
angel and trying to write like that and
you know and had some heartbreaks and
had a a death in the family and just
really intense and there something very
wild about being almost 70 and standing
there and going, "Okay, so what that kid
wanted to do, you kind of did it." Uh,
and then just feeling those two people
juxtaposed like that. It was I can't
really quite describe it, but it's
funny. I started late. You know, the
first book didn't come out till I was
38. So, I feel like I'm really racing to
u make the most of what talent I have
and and trying to um do really good work
in these whatever time is is left. But
in that early time, one of the things
that was so beautiful about it was that
I had gotten everything
all the like my stupid dreams of being a
prodigy were just obviously not going to
happen. And so for the first time, it
was kind like all right, what if what if
you don't have any writing career? What
if you don't have anything to um at
which you're particularly great at
you're just a you know just a good
hopefully a good father and husband. And
in that space it was really I I found
that there was plenty plenty to live for
and to live happily for and that was a
kind of a I think I'd always always
secretly thought I was kind of shallow
in that way that I was all ambition and
to find out that actually even pretty
much shorn of that I was I still liked
being alive and still felt a lot of you
know happiness and like oh right all
right well I'm still I'm still okay you
know that was very sweet.
>> Well I'm I'm glad you felt that way then
and I'm glad you feel the way you do
now. Thank you.
>> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro.
>> And I'm David Maresy.
>> And we're the hosts of the Interview, an
audio and video [music] podcast from the
New York Times.
>> Every week we interview fascinating and
influential people from all walks of life.
life.
>> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so
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