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Why Good People Get Stuck in Bad Relationships | Being Well

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This content explores the complex and often confusing experience of being entangled in relationships that are detrimental to one's well-being, offering insights into why intelligent individuals get stuck and providing actionable strategies for disengagement and recovery.

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Hello and welcome to Being Well. I'm

Forest Hansen. If you're new to the

show, thanks for joining us today. And

if you've listened before, welcome back.

Today we're talking about one of the

most difficult things a person can do.

Leaving somebody who isn't good for you.

Most of us have had at least one

relationship, whether it was romantic, a

friendship, professional, or even inside

of our families, that we knew just

wasn't good for us. We might have seen

the red flags, even made a plan to step

back, but then we kept finding ourselves

pulled back in. These kinds of

relationships are often incredibly

confusing for people. There can be a

kind of jackal and hide quality to them.

The other person might seem wonderful

one day and cruel the next. They might

explain away the worst moments of your

relationship so convincingly that you

start to doubt your own ability to tell

what's actually going on. And even when

you know that something's off, the idea

of leaving can activate a lot of fear.

In this episode, we're going to be

talking about why that happens, why

smart, capable, kind, thoughtful,

psychoeducated people get stuck in these

relationships and what you can do about

it. This is going to include topics like

trauma bonding, common cycles like

idealization and devaluation, and traits

to look out for, including what are

sometimes known as dark triad traits. To

help me do that, I'm joined today by

clinical psychologist Rick Hansen. So,

Dad, how are you doing today?

>> I'm good and I'm really looking forward

to this topic. It's a delicate one and

there's a lot of suffering in it and

even even guilt, I guess. We feel bad

about leaving them, especially if

they're clingy and

>> glad that we haven't left them sometimes

for people. Yeah, absolutely. No, this

one cuts a lot of different ways for

sure. So, I'm also really looking

forward to this one. Uh before we get

into it, I do want to give people a

quick reminder about Rick's Foundations

of Well-being program. It's Rick's

flagship year-long online course. In it,

you can focus on growing new inner

strengths each week for a whole year. It

was the inspiration for our book

together, uh Resilient. And if you'd

like to learn more, head to rickson.com/foundations

rickson.com/foundations

and use coupon code being well 25 to

receive a 25% off discount. You can also

apply for scholarships there. There are

a lot of ways to access the program.

It's a really great offering from Rick.

So, I would love to get into it with you

in kind of a different spot than normal.

We normally start with like a lot of

table setting as we were even joking

about a little bit before we started

recording today, but I would like to

kind of start almost in the middle of

this. Uh, somebody walks into your

office, Dad, and they say to you

something like, "I know that this other

person isn't good for me. When I'm away

from them in particular, I know that

they're not good for me. I can see that.

I can even make a plan for leaving them.

But then I kind of start seeing them

again and I'm back with them and it's so

hard to actually do that and they have

this explanation for why they did what

they did and I just keep on getting

sucked back in. What do you think is

going on here? And what would you say to

this person? uh being real about it. I

would feel a lot of heart for them

>> honestly from the start including

>> uh I was really humbled uh in my late

20s when I got involved in kind of half

a cult I call it

>> and it was a group of people that I I

knew wasn't good in some ways but I just

couldn't leave and and I as you know I'm

fairly autonomous determined persons

educated obviously all of that and I

caught. Lot of resources. I was caught.

>> Yeah. Highly resourced, determined,

privileged in lots of ways.

I couldn't get out. I've been in a

pretty benign version, but also a

version of one of these myself. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So heart humbled and so and and

kind of here's a here's a question I I I

would ask that person not necessarily in

order but a question one question right

off the top is what is it that is what

is the good within you

that keeps uh keeping you entangled in

what's bad for you like maybe a belief

in them or their ability to change for

the better something like that empathy.

Yeah, I could see that.

>> Yeah. or you you know just thinking of

you as a really um honorable person and

a beautiful person it would draw you

back in and you large-hearted would draw

you back in. Uh so it's it's actually

>> yeah taking responsibility uh you know

well they are what they are but I'm

going to take mega responsibility over

here. I'm going to be a learner. I'm

going to focus on my side of the street.

These are these are wholesome virtuous

qualities in people. certainly in you

and I think they just suck us back in.

Um, yeah, that would be one thing and I

think it's to begin to differentiate

because that's sort of key here because

when I'm away from the person, I know

it's not good for me, but when I'm with

them, I'm just sucked in. We need to

increase differentiation in real time,

you know, live on the set, you know, on

the playing field. And um one way into

that is to go internal and and feel into

and appreciate the good things in you

that keep pulling you back in. That

would be one thing. A second question

I'd have would be, okay, what makes it

hard to hold on to your truth and to

stay in touch with me when you're in the

middle of we? And it's normal. It's

nothing wrong with you. Nothing to be

embarrassed about. It's really normal.

And what is it just facts, right, that's

keeping you um that's that's making it

hard for you to see clearly when you're

around them, when you're in the reality

distortion field, you know, that that

other person is kind of radiating. And

it could be stuff like um childhood

material about over inshment in your

family of origin as a model of

attachment relationships. Um not enough

sense of differentiation,

you know, from other people. Uh and it

could it may be again some of your

strengths and goodness you maybe you're

a very open person very kind of

sensitive and empathic and permeable and

you care about others and that kind of

makes it hard for you to differentiate

you know in real time with another

person. Um so just understanding that

better can help you uh reminding

yourself of certain things going in.

Maybe even writing some stuff out if

you're talking with them on the phone,

going back and forth to that, you know,

yellow sticky on the wall, [laughter]

not my problem or, you know, uh, it's

okay for me to be me or, you know,

what's in your best interest, Sam, or

whatever your name might be, right?

Okay, I'll stop there.

>> I think you gave a great list already of

things that could be in the mix for

somebody. Another one that I would put

out there that I think is really true

for people is often these relationships

become very isolating uh both because

the other person is doing things whether

it's deliberately or subconsciously

whatever you know in some ways it almost

doesn't matter uh to kind of isolate you

from other people or because there's a

lot of shame in the mix because you kind

of feel inside of yourself like oh man I

I feel bad talking about this with other

people. I don't I don't want to be the

person who keeps on bringing this kind

of a topic up to my friend group or my

friends have gotten tired of hearing

about this because every time that I

talk to them, I just talk about how bad

fill-in- thelank person is,

>> right? And they're they've just told me,

"Hey, like we have nothing to add here.

We we've already said what we feel like

we have to say." And so now I feel

increasingly cut off from different

forms of support that could exist out

there. So that's another one I would

kind of lay on top of the pile here. I'm

glad you said that because, you know, a

disclaimer here. We're not talking about

normal relationship, you know, issues,

right? Disagreements, little touches

here and there.

>> We're talking about it, it's kind of

like walks like a duck, quacks like a

duck, acts like a duck.

>> Basically, a rule of thumb for me

>> is do I feel bigger or smaller after an

interaction with somebody?

>> Yeah. Good relationships can have plenty

of conflict in them. To your point, Dad,

this is sort of a slightly different

focus. When I was setting this up, I I

wasn't thinking of it as a um explicitly

an episode focused on helping people out

with abusive relationships. That's kind

of itself a whole other category. There

could be stuff in here that's helpful

for you if that's if that's a situation

that unfortunately you find yourself in.

um and particularly some of the stuff

that we talk about today that's about uh

identifying those kinds of relationships

could be helpful for you. I'm sort of

thinking about this in that range that

it's definitely above oh we argue

sometimes or we're having like a normal

range relationship conflict. Does that

kind of make sense?

>> Oh, it's great. I think it's a really

interesting territory and

>> and to mess it up further probably. Um

it could be that

>> relationships sort of have different

channels, if you will. And it could be

that when you're in the channel where

you're just talking about sports, it's

fine. But if you get into the channel

where you're talking about politics,

it just doesn't feel good. or right or

maybe yeah this is someone where as long

as you keep it on a kind of formal

footing at work goes okay if you allow

that boundary to slip and slide and you

know based on that one night of going

out for drinks and getting kind of

flirty with each other and then it got weird

weird

you just pull back you know so there's a

place here too for recognizing that in

certain channels it could feel bad but

in other channels it's still okay to

maintain a relationship in that channel.

>> Great. And just to uh keep on doing our

disclaimers at the startish of the

episode here, we're going to use the

word relationship a lot like you just

did. Uh and this is of course a huge

problem inside of romantic

relationships. Maybe the most common

place where this becomes a problem for

people. But when we say relationship, we

also mean friendships, family, some work

environments, things like that. So we're

being kind of inclusive here with it.

One of the things I definitely wanted to

do was a little bit of things to look

out for, red flags, that kind of stuff,

which can be helpful for people

particularly. There's this set of traits

that sometimes people refer to as the

dark triad that I think are particularly

problematic inside of different forms of

relationships. First one, everyone's

heard of it, narcissism, grandiosity,

fragile sense of self, me. Second one,

what's called mchavellianism.

And this is about covert forms of

manipulation, which is going to be a big

theme of the episode. Then third

category, probably the least common, but

it's, you know, kind of depends on how

you think about it. This is full-blown

uh psychopathy or what are sometimes

called antisocial personality traits.

What this means is a general sense of

lack of kindness and care for others, no

real remorse. Uh if this is somebody who

essentially never apologizes, I a kind

of sense of callousness maybe in their

behavior with other people. And for me,

what to look for here is what is this

person like under pressure?

Anyone can be good on a good day. What

are they like on a bad day? Particularly

with things like narcissism, narcissism

is a style of emotional regulation. So

the person is hyper sensitive to

feelings of shame, low selfworth, that

kind of stuff. So they have to

chronically look outside of themselves

to regulate those feelings. They can't

do it on their own. And this is why

sometimes people who are in that more

narcissistic category find a kind of

identified person that they sort of

latch on to as this external object that

then functions for them as a source of

narcissistic supply. So when you guys

are agreeing about everything, when

you're doing everything that they want

you to do, they can be perfectly lovely.

If anything, they can be charming and

sound really clever and, you know, be

very successful out in the world, but on

a bad day, that's when everything kind

of goes to hell. And um that's one of

the things that I just just think really

stands out as a pattern in these kinds

of people.

>> How do you What's your

>> the meter? >> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> The ometer. I'm looking for the first

word. What what would be the first word

for the like

>> the the weird the spook meter? We're

we're in spooky season, Dad. We're It's

almost Halloween. We can do the spook. Okay.

Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

And your home is super decorated thanks

to Elizabeth, maybe some other loves

loves spooky season. Big spooky season

person. Yeah.

>> Yeah. The spookometer where it's just

And what is that? And so I wonder like

for me it's registering

uh that this other person doesn't

actually care about me.

>> Yeah. It can just take a long time to

figure that out. But I totally agree

with you.

>> Yeah. And and even the animal feeling um

where you just in your gut you just they

say the words maybe they're charming.

You know, you you've talked about

charisma sometimes as a feature of

narcissistic uh people, but deep down

inside when you walk away, you feel

emptied, you feel less, you feel subordinated,

subordinated,

you don't feel cherished, you don't feel

prized. Uh here there's a struggle often

uh around uh valuation and devaluation

as if it's a zero- sum game and there

are finite number of you know

affirmative supplies in the space. So if

you get some that means they get less.

So do you feel somehow depleted in your

worth? Do you feel subtly, this is a

real hallmark for me, subtly that you

have to keep proving yourself or

impressing them or earning your way back

in to good standing with them? that

if I may be so blunt. [laughter]

I did I did see that coming. You just

hit me with that one, Dad. I love it for you.

you. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah,

>> this is a new look. You're not even

wearing the black t-shirt today. This is

black t-shirt [laughter] energy.

>> Not black, not not black helicopter

energy. Black hat energy or whatever it is.

is.

>> Yeah. But but anyway, no, I like black.

Black's good. Anyway, so point being to

me. Yeah. How do you do it? Like where

you just, you know, this kind of more visceral

visceral

>> read where you just go, you know,

>> I feel like I'm being used by this person.

person.

>> Yeah. What I can tell you are some

things that activate my spooko meter.

Maybe that's a good place to to answer

this question from. One of the things

that is really it did not used to, but

what has really started to activate my

spook meter are when people do a lot of

fast forwarding of intimacy. >> Huh.

>> Huh.

>> When somebody is in that world of like,

"Wow, we just met, but I feel like I've

known you forever." There are going to

be moments in life maybe where that's

authentically true for a person. You

know, Elizabeth has had experiences

particularly with female friends where

she talks to the person for five minutes

at a party and she comes up to me and

she's like, "Yeah, I'm going to be

friends with that person for like

forever and ever." And she's right.

She's often totally right about it.

Yeah. And it becomes like this great

meaningful relationship for her. So,

some of this is about discernment, but

this is a big hallmark of these kinds of

relationships and the kinds of people

that end up becoming a little bit

problematic, particularly in romantic

relationships. this real acceleration of

like closeness when [snorts]

no foundation for closeness has actually

been built. You guys actually barely

know each other, but all of a sudden

we're in this kind of us against the

world mentality. And that's one of the

things that can really cut people off

from support in the way that I was

talking about toward the beginning of

the episode. Uh what do you think about

that, Dad? I'm I'm wondering about that

one because I think a lot of people have

this deep desire to find that person

where it's like you you know you lock

eyes across the room and it's like we've

known each other forever. So me flagging

that as something to look out for might

be a little counterintuitive for people

>> people can have and I've had certainly

experiences like Elizabeth has had you

know where there's a real strong sense

of connect. I kind of think you're a

little bit you're getting at I

experienced this a fair amount in the

early days of the human potential scene

where people would be hanging with you

at a party and you know suddenly they'd

be your deepest friend and then fairly

soon they'd be trying to enroll you in

their new workshop program. So

>> yeah, all of us you you've moved in

together after knowing them for 10 days.

You don't really know this person, but

things have escalated very quickly and

then all of a sudden you're like, "Wait

a second, I actually don't know this

person." And then all this weird stuff

starts happening

>> when it feels like um I just loved your

definition. I'd never heard it before of

narcissism as a style of emotional regulation.

regulation. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And so when you start to realize, oh, I

get it. They're using me to regulate

their emotions, right? They need to make

me impressed with them or kind of

secondary to them. Uh they need to make

me, you know, feeding their narcissistic

hungers. Oh, I'm a means to their end.

It that's the quality. The sense of

seduction. Um a version of this I would

not describe as narcissism. I would

think of it more as as just wounded bird neediness.

neediness.

>> Sure. Yeah.

>> And I I mean this quite compassionately.

People get broken wings for external

reasons. It's not their fault.

>> And it can just be that one scenario.

It's not that they're narcissistic. It's

that they've latched on to you and

there's a hole in their bucket and you

just don't have the resources to to fill

them. And at that point, you need to

find a way to disentangle yourself in a

way that has more um continuity for it

or more durability like at a pace you

can manage, you know, having lunch with

them monthly or weekly or something like

that. Anyway, but that's kind of almost

a different category I'm just thinking

about here. But in either case,

they're taking right that's kind of it.

It feels like there's a lack of

reciprocity. Another version of it, I

don't know what you've experienced with

this uh with uh you go out with them and

you hang out and you realize when you

leave, wow, they never asked me a

question about myself.

It was all them. Totally. And

healthy relationships include normal

cycles of give and take. In part because

give and take implies that there's a

relatively flat power relationship.

If I can give to you and you can give to

me and I can, you know, not like take

from you, but like have an ask that you

that you respond to effectively and you

can do the same for me, then we're

relatively even in terms of power. Most

of the relationships that we're

describing that tend to go really

sideways often have a really big power

imbalance in them. And it's not always

that you're the one who's in the one

down position, kind of like you're

talking about, dad. Sometimes you're

actually sort of presented as the the

more functional member of the

relationship for whatever reason. Um,

and somebody is just like having these

kind of chronic asks of you and that's

what makes this relationship unhealthier

when that's really not good for you at

this point. But either way, big power

imbalance. This is also something that

enables a person to cut somebody else

off from that kind of external support.

And another thing that I mentioned,

right, like if they're in a position to

start saying, "Hey, you know, I really

don't like it when you talk to that

person, that that friend group over

there, they say bad things about me, you

shouldn't why why are you friends with

them when they say bad things about me?"

You know, it's one thing if the person's

just kind of saying that and they've got

no no hold on you. It's all you in one

ear, out the other, it's fine. But if

they're if they have the ability to say,

"Hey, if you do that, this is how I'm

going to punish you."

>> Yeah. then all of a sudden we're really

in the danger zone here. And that kind

of maybe gets to another thing really

quickly here, which to me is the number

one spook. Uh pretty much every

relationship that is in this category

has some version of this, which is these

cycles of idealization and devaluation.

So, this is a really common pattern in

particularly abusive relationships, but

in these more normal range, but still

bad relationships as well, where there's

this frequent cycling, this kind of

rubber band snap that you can sometimes

see in real time where a person goes

from being amazing, I love you, I love

you, I love you, to awful, I hate you, I

hate you, I hate you. And again, this is

one of those things where when they're

getting everything they want, they can

be in the I love you, I love you world.

But the moment that that is challenged,

we go to I hate you, I hate you. And

this then leads to a placation pattern.

We try to plate them. We try to keep

them happy, right? When they're in a

good mood, we're good. So, let's just

keep them in a good mood, right? Oh, no.

We're fine.

That sounds nice in theory. In practice,

it just never works out that way. Um,

sometimes it's because their asks keep

on increasing. Sometimes it's because

it's like there's a a bucket with a hole

in the bottom and you can just never

fill the bucket. Whatever it is, this is

a form of intermittent reinforcement.

It's you're pulling a slot machine

handle and you get a different response

every time. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And we know that this is like one of the

most addictive things to our brain. We

really struggle with intermittent

reinforcement. And so maybe this is

another spook spook meter thing. Uh

maybe the biggest thing to look out for

here, do you feel like you're walking on

eggshells all the time? Do you feel like

you can actually talk about this with

them and feel like they're going to

respond to you in a way that is like

sane and responsive and empathic? You're

making me think about variations on this

one being a certain narcissistic framing

that they're the superstar

>> and uh you you know are permitted to

worship at their feet kind of sort of

>> you're the Robin to their Batman. Yeah. Totally.

Totally.

>> Yeah. And then as long as you stay in

that role, you're permitted to, you

know, hang out in their reflected glory

or sort of. All right. And when you

start stepping out of that role,

including by establishing yourself as a differentiated

differentiated

being on, as you put it earlier,

horizontal power level, then they fight

back. You know, they don't want to they

want they they want to maintain the

script. Go the other way. the one where

in a way you're just talking about where

they come in in a very idealized way

toward you idealizing or it could be a

variation of I'm brilliant and I also

recognize your genius let's say okay

that's a clever tricky one oh he they

recognize my genius oh oh they're so

impressive they say I'm like them oh

okay good and and then based on um

idealizing you then they communicate

essentially because you're so wonderful

because you really understand because

your genius understands my genius.

Whatever I need you, you owe me. And

then as long as you keep delivering

those goods based on that idealization,

then they'll keep they'll keep the music

playing. You're right. But if that

>> music stops, right, then uh you're

right, devaluation time. How dare you?

How could you? I guess I was so wrong

about you. And then you get sucked into

trying to prove yourself again. Have you

seen ways? I'm just wondering because

you've you've worked as a couples and

family and individual therapist forever

and ever, 40 years or whatever it was. Um,

Um,

>> you're kind of largely retired from

private practice at this point, but you

know, you're still doing a little bit of it.

it.

>> I still have my own neurotic mind that I

have to

>> Yeah. We're all practicing all I've got

grist for the mill every day for a

full-time therapeutic practice just

dealing with [laughter] my own mind.

>> Just dealing with my own pathology. I'm

my my own favorite uh favorite favorite

client or whatever it is. Uh anyways, my

my question in this is like have you

seen ways that this pattern tends to

like show up practically for people?

Somebody's walking into your office,

they're talking about this inside of

their relationships or you've seen a

couple do this where you're starting to

get a whiff of this kind of thing. Like

what does it really look like?

a a really common pattern and it's

gendered and just I'm not saying this is

the only way it shows up and it's partly

also true that it's much more often

females than males who will seek out a

therapist. Very often uh it'll be a a

woman I'm just thinking of several

instances and she'll among other things

be describing her relationship

and it starts to raise my hackles on her

behalf, my spookometer.

M the spooks are going off for you. Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Like he did he he said what

to you or he doesn't do what or he

insists that you what or you know and I

start moving more and more in that way. And

And

part of it for people to understand I

think is not around blaming yourself but

again recognizing okay what are the

factors that keep me hooked? What are

the repetition compulsions here from my

childhood? uh maybe around a a way of

being helpless and dependent as a mode

of relating with other people that kind

of make uh you know have enabled this

person to sort of move in uh to certain

spaces in which I was more inert or

helpless or not as agentic you know not

as assertive and he just sort of moved

in and took over and okay so what is it

about that what what keeps this person

involved and what drew this person to

that kind of person in the first place.

Again, not blaming the victim

out of self-respect and self-standing.

So, I I I see that. Um I also see

certain situations where where the other

person can be threatening

and they get pretty inflammatory

and uh they're very good at making you

feel like it's all your fault and

turning it back on you. Maybe they're

more a little more verbally filled, a

little more verbally gifted. Maybe

they've had a little more personal

growth and therapy under their belt.

They've had a meditation retreat. You

know, they can and they just throw it

back at you and you walk away going,

"Uh, I guess it must be my fault. Uh, I

have to grow. I have to I have to let go

and so forth." So, that to me also is a

clue. If when you keep walking away from

interactions, the structure of it is

that okay, it's you, the person who has

work to do. So a second ago there, dad,

you used a phrase repetition,

compulsion. We've talked about these

ideas on the podcast in the past,

including in the episodes that we did on

psychoanalysis. But this kind of gets to

something that is a big topic that I

wanted to do with you today, which is

>> whether there's uh there are some

tendencies in the people who tend to get

stuck in these kinds of relationships.

And you were talking about it even at

the very beginning of the episode when

you mentioned, hey, here's some

qualities that this person might have or

some things about your personal history

that uh somebody like this could be kind

of taken advantage of. I would say a

person who was smallified in their

family who was made to be the good boy

or good girl, you know, with a certain

amount of maybe understandable seething

anger underneath it all. Speaking of

myself, uh, growing up in some ways, it

could be, you know, someone who some

maybe who had

a sibling with health issues and so they

had to sort of recede to the side in the

family because there just wasn't the

understandable attention or resources

for them. So, you know, people who are

uh tend to be excessively differential,

differential to authority, differential

to expertise,

uh differential to people who maybe seem

a little more intelligent.

That can make people pretty vulnerable.

Another version of this is to be around

um a fair amount of volatility and

instability and placating.

>> I think that's a really important one.

Normalization of volatility is maybe a

way to put it. like that. Did you come

from a system where it was just normal

for people to be shouting at each other

a lot

>> or for there to be these kinds of

blowups or for emotional instability to

be just a big part of the mix? Because

then you see it in your relationships

and you go like, "Oh yeah, okay. This is

what people do." And it's like, "Well,

yeah, a lot of people do that, but that

doesn't mean it's good for you."

>> That's right. and to and to see the role

of a person in your family system maybe

who was the appeaser

>> even if both of them are shouting at

each other. Okay. Yeah.

>> Who's the one who usually makes the

first moves you know to apologize or ask

for forgiveness or um maybe it was like

that and you just hated it.

So you'll just do anything in your

current relationship to not have that happen.

happen.

>> Yeah. and you just it just really

triggers you around your past. You hate

it. So So you move into that placating,

appeasing, freezing kind of way of being.

being.

>> That's a great list. Really, really good

summary. Uh couple of episodes maybe or

or related topics that we've done that

could be helpful about this. I think a

lot of self-abandonment stuff comes in here.

here.

>> Are you fundamentally allied with

yourself? And I I mean kind of like

capital S self, like your big sense of

who you are, or or do you feel like um

you're in a relationship where it's all

about the self that's over there and you

kind of like you were saying earlier,

Dad, you're you're kind of this like

plug-in unit that's sort of attached to

them. That's a battery like kind of

powering their light bulb. Some people,

you know, that that's a role that they

want to be in life. they want to be the

kind of support system person that can

be great. But man, if you get bigger and

stronger and more successful, how do

they react? Do they like it when you get

bigger and stronger and more successful?

Are they cheerleading you getting bigger

and stronger and more successful? Or are

they freaking out? And again, I think

that's another one of those things to

just really be paying attention to here.

Maybe really quickly, uh, two other sort

of red flags that I I want to just toss

into the mix. Uh, first,

really bad responses to disagreement or

being challenged,

particularly explosive anger on the one

hand or withdrawal, silent treatment,

I'm going to just cut you off. >> Iceageed.

>> Iceageed.

>> Yeah. Ice. Yeah, totally. You're just

iced out. So, the either either side of

the spectrum in a kind of intense way. Keep

Keep

>> supernova or ice age. Yeah, not a good sign.

sign.

>> Uh, second one that I I would love to

talk with you about a little bit because

I because this is such a hard one to

talk about the fuzz.

>> These people hate clarity.

We're constantly talking about well what

I meant by what I said was this and what

did you really mean by that and what was

our agreement and a lot of fighting over

semantics. a lot of like wait what so

what really happened there?

This is again a little difficult to talk

about because a normal amount of that

can be really healthy inside of a

relationship. You want to figure out

what the other person's thinking and

feeling and how they interpreted the

situation and what did they mean by that

actually. Like these can be useful

questions to ask, but man, if you are

spending a lot of time

debating exactly what happened and

they're spending a lot of time telling

you why the bad thing they did is

actually not a bad thing and in fact is

kind of an example of how you're doing

something wrong.

>> If they're doing a lot of, oh no, what I

really meant was over and over and over

again, that's just a pattern to really

pay attention to. And particularly that

feeling of like you're wandering through

a fog. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Like the fuzz is everywhere. It's all

around you. Nothing's really ever

totally clear. What was our agreement

about that thing?

>> The This is a big spook meter for me.

I've It's become kind of a running joke

inside of my friend group actually at

this point that I talk about the fuzz a

lot. Like that's a fuzzy person is

something that I'll say. There's just a

lot of fuzz around that person over

there. Um, and it's this kind of lack of

clarity where it's just really tough to

pin somebody down um about like what do

they care about? What are their values

here? What are our agreements? And

they're just kind of fuzzy about it.

>> First I was fuzzy about

>> about about what I meant by fuzzy. It

It's a fuzzy word. Yeah.

>> And now I get it. I think it's really

great. And uh underneath it all it has

to do with what the intent is.

And you I think you can feel it when

someone has a sincere interest in

understanding what bothered you about a

particular word you used.

>> Sure. Yeah.

>> Okay. And they they really want to

understand and they're kind of sorting

it out. They're they're because they

just don't get it and they want to get

it. Okay. You can feel that. Um, on the

other hand, yeah, if I if I'm just

thinking about um the fuzz,

>> not the police, but anyways,

>> I know I'm immediately going [laughter] there.

there.

>> No, hot fuzz, the whole thing. Yeah, totally.

totally.

>> Yeah. At the end of the day and in the

beginning of the and middle of the day

too, what what we each as humans want

and want from each other is usually

really quite simple.

It's very specific. It's direct. It's

it's it's heart it's heartfelt. It it

gets to us. We we want to feel that

we're with someone who wishes us well.

We want to feel understood.

We want to feel that the other people

are reliable.

That what they say they will do, they

will actually do. Pretty

basic stuff and sounds like a great list

to me. I'm I'm a big fan so far.

>> Okay. Yeah, I'm sure there there more.

There more.

>> Yeah. A lot on the list, but those are

good entries. Totally.

>> Yeah. And I think about thought balloons

people have as they cross each other,

you know, in their life or with each

other. Do you like me? Do you love me?

Can I count on you?

Will you hurt me?

We the answers to these questions are are

are

they're like a weighty stone. They're

solid. They're real. They're palpable.

They're not that hard. And I think

fuzziness is a way to evade clarity

about actual answers to these soulful

questions that we have naturally for

each other.

That would be one thing I see. And a

second thing I see is that they're

they're throwing out the word cloud to

like an inky squid, you know, to evade

and escape

>> obfiscation, baby.

>> And to escape,

allowing you to communicate a clear request.

request.

What cuts through a lot of the fuzz is

is their story about the past. That's

the fuzz. Okay, bottom line, what's your

request of them from now on? To me,

that's a very useful way. I I find

myself with people who are doing fuzz on

me and I listen for a little bit. I zero

in on what my actual best interests are

here for the future and then put it out

as a clean request and then you see what

they do with that one. And if and if

that freaks somebody out essentially if

they are totally non-responsive to that

if they are not interested in clarifying

what the agreements are. If they're like

why why do you need to have that like oh

I don't know you're putting a lot of

pressure on me

there's some amount of that again this

is why this is hard to talk about.

There's some amount of that that's

understandable or reasonable or

whatever, but that has an expiration

date in an adult relationship and like a

serious adult relationship with other

serious adults, right? Like that's stuff

that 13-year-olds do with each other.

And while my favorite recent unifying

theory of the world is everyone is 13.

If you've been spending some time on

Twitter, it's an absolutely hilarious

thing. Please look up why is everyone

13? Um or I think it's 13. Might have

been 12, but I think it was 13. Uh

anyways, um we don't want to be 13 with

each other in our adult relationships,

right? We want to act like adults. And

guess what? Adults make agreements and

then they keep them most of the time.

And if they don't, you're kind of in trouble.

trouble.

>> You You made me think about how much we

don't like being pinned down. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And yet, and I get that like nobody

wants to be the butterfly and the

examination thing. Yeah. Totally

>> right. And still fundamentally

it's not safe to be with people who are

unwilling to be pinned down.

>> Yeah. Who are totally unpinable. If they

are just like a a gassy form, you know,

whatever kind of gaseous whatever

cloudlike substance,

>> then that's probably not a great

candidate for like a deep meaningful

relationship. It could be a good

candidate for for whatever for like a

peripheral friendship, for somebody to

say hi to in the office. Okay, sure. But

safety issues come up a lot of the time

with these people and so you do not want

to be spending excess time with them by

and large.

>> Yeah. If I could for us to name one of

your probably least favorite activities

which is being high up on a cliff with

the wind.

>> Oh yeah. Real real fear of exposure over

here. I raise my hand on that one. Totally.

Totally.

>> Yeah. Okay. You just made me think about

my own experiences of being high up on

the cliff and those people who know how

rock climbing works. It's that one

person is anchored. They're the bollayer

and then there's the lead climber and so

forth. If the lead climber falls, the

ultimate point of catching is the

bollayer's anchors. So common practice

is three independent sources of

protection. So if two fail, you still

have a third. Okay. So I was just

thinking about being, you know, 50 feet

up, 100 feet up, and calling down to my

Blair. Hey yo, are you you because I'm

getting scared, let's say, as the lead

climber. Hey, are those anchors solid?

And the other the person says, well,

what is an anchor anyway? And what do

you mean solid? Uh why do you need to

pin me down for that? I'd be freaking

out because obviously I need to know that

that

the anchors are pinned down in the

cracks and my partner has is pinned down

with his ass asurances

and I think there's a lot about life

that's like that.

>> So I think we've done a great job of

>> Did you swerve away from that metaphor

for us? Did I like traumatize you from

the setup?

>> Oh, from from the exposure you No, no, no.

no.

>> Yeah, you kind of went away there. No,

it was I I just I just went away for a

moment because I was like, "Oh, I got to

transition into another part of the

podcast episode." So that that was it

was not because you had given me like

flashbacks suddenly to to traumaticity

or whatever it was.

>> This podcast is all about you. I'm

sharing a meaningful story here.

>> Hey there. Thanks for watching and sorry

for the little interruption here. But it

turns out that over 60% of the people

watching this video right now are not

subscribed to the channel. I really

appreciate your support even if you

don't subscribe, but it's even better

for me if you do. So, if you could take

a moment to hit the subscribe button,

maybe you know whatever they say, smash

that like button while you're down

there. Uh, I'd really appreciate it. So,

thanks so much and back to the show.

Okay. Okay. We've done a great job of

talking about all the stuff that's in

the mix here. I think I I'm going to pat

us on the back. All right. Okay, good.

>> Um the the crux of this for people is

now what you know lot of good

identification of what goes into this

things to look out for that kind of

stuff. And I think a lot of what we've

been talking about so far is kind of the

answer to why does that smart, capable,

thoughtful, intelligent, psychoeducated,

blah blah blah person still sometimes

find themselves sucked into these kinds

of relationships. These relationships

are complicated. They're fuzzy. It's

sometimes hard to to see what's what the

real truth of something is when you're

in kind of the fog of a relationship.

So, okay, now let's say you're in one of

these. What do we do about this? I think

a big one for people, like a place to

start is rebuilding that sense of

yourself as somebody who matters. For

starters, my needs really matter. Uh

rubber banding can really make it

difficult for a person to be confident

about their perceptions of what's going

on. You know, maybe I overreacted, maybe

they didn't mean it. Oh, they'll be

better tomorrow. Whatever it is. And it

can make it kind of hard to reconnect

with that sense of selfrust, that

feeling that like, hey, no, I am seeing

this clearly. Wait a second. Yeah, that

actually wasn't good. Oh, no. They they

can't talk to me that way.

So there and there are some questions

that maybe you could um you could ask to

start seeing this inside of your

relationships a little bit. Do you share

stories about this situation and your

friends, people who you know really care

about you just raise their eyebrows a

lot, you know? Well, really they like

you said they said what? Huh?

>> You gave them another chance?

>> Yeah. Wow. Well, we're doing this again.

Really? Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Or do you feel like you're

walking on eggshells all the time? Like

I said earlier,

>> uh do they feel kind of receptive to

those requests that you make, including

requests that involve kind of an

agreement, a clear agreement, pinning

them down a little bit? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh can you define boundaries inside of

the relationship? Are there boundaries

inside of the relationship? Have we do

we agree on what a boundary is or what a

boundary means? All of that kind of stuff.

stuff.

>> What do you mean mean?

>> Yeah. What do you Exactly right. We're

doing the whole thing. Um another big

one. Are my relationships kind of

shrinking? or they getting smaller and smaller.

smaller.

And these are all things that can make

it actually in a weird way harder and

harder to trust yourself because they're

kind of attacks on your own sense of

selfworth. Wow, I'm in this relationship

that my other friends don't like and I I

feel like I I can't really trust them

and h I do feel like I'm just kind of

getting smaller and smaller. there's

this funny sort of reinforcing quality

to it. Uh that includes a lot of shame

and I think that that shame experience

is is kind of the elephant in the room

with a lot of these relationships. Um

I'm wondering dad if as I'm just kind of

talking about this if stuff's coming to

mind for you like things a person could

do to reinforce that sense of selfrust

to feel a little bigger, a little

Well, I'm pausing because I'm putting

myself into the world of real people and

real relationships.

>> Yeah. Because some of this is kind of

like easy to say from a 10,000 foot

view, but when you're in it, it gets a

lot harder. Totally.

>> Yeah. Here you are. You're middle age.

You're you're um maybe you're

10 years in to a relationship. >> Sure.

>> Sure.

>> And maybe you've got kids together.

Maybe you are tangled up in some working

relationship with them. They're an

important colleague. Maybe they're even

further up the ladder than you are in

the company somewhere. And it gets

complicated. And you know, it can be

hard to realize and to pay a price on

any given day.

It's it's not worth it to change the

overall structure. You know, on any

given day, it seems to make sense to

keep the peace, right? But then the days

become yours.

>> Huge hallmark of these relationships. on

any day the cost of leaving is greater

than the cost of staying. But when you

add it up, wow, you do not like that

bank account.

>> Yeah, that's right. Um, so that's real

and that has a lot of weight on people.

So what do you do about it? Well, one

thing I think that's really helpful is

to ask yourself, if I knew with perfect

certainty that the next 12 days or 12

weeks or if the next 12 months were

exactly like more or less in regard to

these key things that are wearing on me

now, the last 12 months, if I knew with

perfect certainty that there was not

going to be a significant change, what

would I do? And often the answer is I'd

be out of here. And then I would next

question is okay. What can then uh

reduce your uncertainty about the answer

to the question will they change for the

better? Because it's okay to look at

other people and think to yourself, they

do need to change for the better or I'm

going to leave this job, this roommate,

this apartment, this town, [laughter]

this relationship. It's just got to

change for the better. Know what your

walk away is. Or you might say, "Well,

darn. Even if it continues, net triple

net, the kids are still in the home.

They're not out of high school. It's not

horrible on any given day, and I'm

quietly going to make my plan for three

years from now when they finally, you

know, go off to college, say, for

example." But no, what's your walk away?

What's your prediction? what do you need

to do to clarify whether it will get

good enough to stick around? That I

think is really helpful. Another thing

that's really helpful is to increase

your options elsewhere kind of quietly.

Maybe you're not quite ready to move,

but build up friendships outside of this relationship.

relationship.

Uh inform yourself about things. You

know, increase your

uh qualifications in the job market if

that's kind of in the back of your mind.

you know, make a plan for yourself that

that kind of quietly is building up your

reserves. U I've known people do this

when they're wondering about whether,

you know, this marriage, let's say, will

work to kind of quietly um you know,

clarify some things. Straighten out your

finances, get your own credit cards, you

know, stuff like that. So, I think those

would be two things I would think about

in the real world that could be really

helpful for people. Yeah, I think those

are really practical to me. I guess I

think about it in terms of um different

levels maybe as a way to way to sort of

think about it where it depends a lot on

the relationship like the stuff that

we're talking about now which is a

little bit more practical. It's going to

be really situational. So take it with a

grain of salt. Uh we're just throwing

ideas out there and hopefully there's

something in here that you find helpful.

There are some relationships that are

like this where you really can get some

distance from them pretty quickly.

You're not that enshed. It's not like a

deep romantic relationship like you were

saying, Dad, that's been going for 10

years. You're you're 3 months in. Um or

it's like a work relationship that's

starting to sprawl a little bit, get a

little fuzzy. You're like, I don't know

about this. Okay, so this is at the kind

of mild level. We can be in the world of

having strong boundaries that are

actually enforcable.

This could mean clarifying your

expectations, communicating that we're

in the land of something's got to

change. Um, in work environments, this

could mean doing a lot of writing things

down, keeping a detailed paper trail,

what are agreements about this project,

whatever it is. Okay? And this is mostly

for situations that for starters

non-abusive. Uh, also ones where you

feel like there's some actual real

chance of change, like interacting about

it makes sense because the person is

still still kind of malleable to you.

They they haven't entered the world of

like, yeah, this just ain't going to

change, man. Or, uh, more family

environments where you want to stay in

contact with them, but you want to kind

of X some stuff out of the out of the

picture. And that's also maybe more the

medium category of this. That's resizing

the relationship. You talk about this a lot.

lot. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

friendships that have outlived their

natural lifespan can fall into this

category. You've just kind of started to

drift away. They really want to keep on

sucking you back in. All right. Do we

get into the world of we're going to

carve out, like you said, the politics

dad, but you know, I'm I'm comfortable

talking with this friend from high

school about sports or whatever. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Then strong the top level a lot of what

we're going to be talking about getting

out of there,

>> creating a plan, you're resourcing

yourself, and you're you're bailing. And

that's the word of like how to exit, right?

right?

Big point here. You don't owe them anything.

anything.

You don't owe them.

Leaving is a big deal. Leaving is really

hard. You've already given your pound of

flesh. You've already given your pound

of flesh. You've done it. You put the

work in. You put the time in. You had

the aspiration for them as a person. You

wished the best for them. You You did

it. You did your effort. And now we're

in the world of I got to look out for

me. And inside of relationships like

this, these people will do everything

they can to move you away from thinking

that way.

They will try to move you into the world of

you do owe me. You should feel bad for

me. You are the bad person here. Okay.

Sometimes you can be in the place where

it makes sense to have like a real

focused breakup conversation with them,

right? But in the relationships that

we've been talking about, sometimes the

move is you get out of there and then

you talk about it with them. Like you do

not give them a heads up that this thing

is going to happen because every time

you do things go sideways or they freak

out and it becomes unsafe for you.

Particularly in situations where there

are like physical safety risks here.

operating from that stance of hey, I

don't owe them can be completely

transformative for people. I don't know

what you think about this, Dad.

>> There's a category of relationships that

I wonder what you think about where it's

kind of messy in that they're both

exploitive and you feel well, you do

want to step back from them. It's not

that they're narcissistically consuming you.

you.

>> Sure. Yeah. It's just

>> for whatever reason.

>> Totally. No, I get it.

>> It's Yeah. Uh but you feel some duty

toward them. >> Sure.

>> Sure.

>> You know, I've known people who felt a

lot of duty to their uh their

ex-husband's uncle, for example,

something like that where you

>> Sure. who's an older person, needs a lot

of support. Yeah, absolutely. Totally.

>> Um they just they're lonely. They want

you to come over.

>> Here's the question I would have for

you, Dad.

>> Is the is the ex-husband's uncle

verbally abusive?

>> Right. Exactly.

>> You know, like this is a category

question. This is like a severity,

intensity, all of that question. Um, for

me, the kind of you don't owe them world

is more toward the higher side of the

spectrum in terms of the behavior that's

happening and and the problems

associated with it. No, you're totally

right about duty to self, duty to other.

And yeah, and I I find people uh you

know, arguably especially

females, you know, in terms of gender

socialization do generalize, um tend to

load duty to others ahead of duty to self.

self.

>> Yeah. And what I'm just sort of flagging

in saying that and being kind of

provocative with the intensity that I'm

saying it,

>> uh is that I think that this is one of

the things that keeps people stuck in

these sorts of relationships. feeling

like, "Oh, well, I still, oh, they've

done this or that for me."

>> And it just stands out to me and

and look, like, you know, sometimes,

yeah, we we do owe people things and we

should be conscious of that and

thoughtful about it. Um, and it's it's

going to be up to you to to make that determination.

determination.

>> Yeah, that's exactly right. And I I

think there's a place where where people

do something, there's the old line, you

know, if it happens once, shame on you.

If it happens twice, shame on me. In

other words, and again, not blaming the

victim, but if you see that other for

who they are, recognize it the first

time. I think is my to paraphrase Maya

Angelou, I think. Yeah. I think

sometimes people they do stuff and you

just blink and you realize, wow, if you

thought you could do that once, you're

going to think you can do it again. And

I'm just unilaterally going to take a

big step back. And I probably won't even

tell you I am, but I'm telling you, you

know, you just canceled your vote with

me right there. So, I'm thinking about

that. And I'm also thinking about um one

of the I'm thinking that we're including here

here

complicated pre-ivorce scenarios.

>> Sure. Yeah.

>> Some of this could could be in the mix.

Divorce for many people will be the

single largest financial transaction of

their life as well as hugely

consequential if they're children uh or

any kind of you know mutually embedded

relationships like you're both really

involved with the same church something

and it's a big deal. So if you're if

it's going to be a big deal um any big

deal get good at it.

Damn. Get good at separating. Get good

at what a trial separation is like, you

know. Get good at the legal process of

divorcing. Get good at the financial

aspects. Bummer. Get good at how the

talk with the kids about it aspects. You

know, get good at understanding the way

the legal system is structured, the way

that it's tilted against men sometimes

in some ways actually in family court

and other times tilted against women in

some ways in family court. You know,

read the room. So, you know, just that's

kind of general. Maybe we can talk more.

I speak from some experience. I'm not an

attorney. I'm not giving legal advice.

I've been down this road many times. Totally.

Totally. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, one quick request here, Dad. Could

you uh I think your mic is bumping the

table semi-regularly when you rattle the

table or something's bumping something.

>> No, it's my percussive elbows.

>> Oh, okay. Yeah. I If we could if we

could be careful about the percussion,

that would about the drum section over

there, that would be fantastic.

>> That's right. I'm taking your request

cuz we have a good relationship.

You can complain and my complaint

department. That's another thing. Is

this You want a clue? The other person

never has an open complaint department.

You know, they're always gone for lunch,

right? No, it's important to be

receptive to the complaints of others, including

including

>> including the drum the drum section

going on in the background there. Thank

you for taking my production note down

and turning it to a useful, productive

part of the episode. Wow. Oh, great. So,

um, a couple different ways for people

to approach exits of different kinds.

>> Again, it's all situational. Be smart,

be thoughtful, use your own, you know,

understanding of the situation. You're

going to know a lot better than we will.

>> Uh, couple very common exit strategies.

Uh, the first what I will call the kind

of no drama communication here.

You're keeping it clean. You're being

very clear. You're being very calm. You

say some version of, "Hey, this isn't

working for me. I'm going to need to

kind of change this relationship a

little bit." There is a communication

involved. You do say that to the other

person. It is not a debate. It is not a

I'm thinking about doing this thing. It

is a this is what's happening. This is

what I'm going to do cuz I get to decide

what I am going to do. It is generally

brief, kind of emotionally neutral.

You're not talking about what happened.

You're not most of the time talking

about why you're doing this. You don't

feel the need to blame them. You're not

freaking out. You're just trying to keep

it clean

and get out of there. [snorts] And this

is something you can do when the other

person is not very likely to retaliate

or escalate or make it super weird. You

just want to end contact. You want to do

it as kind of in as sort of morally

neutral a way as possible and you're not

getting sucked into a big argument about

it if at all possible. What do you do if

they um beg, plead, blame,

uh retaliate? Love it. Uh you know, you

I've had this happen. I've had people

come home. Uh they broke up with

somebody who still had a key to their

apartment, came in and you know, cut

literally took a big scissors to many of

their clothes.

>> Well, I think that it can get weird.

>> Doing your due diligence ahead of time

and then be smart,

>> like change the locks. I also think that

yeah, it's a little tough to do this

style of move in a more entrenched

relationship in a world where they got a

key to the house. You know, it's you're

probably have more of a conversation.

There's going to be more of a

complicated exit. >> Um,

>> Um,

if you have something at their apartment

that you really care about, maybe

acquire it before you communicate this

to the other. Like, do do your work

here. Don't be a dummy, I guess, would

be my answer to a lot of situations like

that. Uh if they still, you know, key

your car, smash your window, fill in the

blank, it's kind of up to you at that

point. Where do you want to take it? Do

you want to pursue legal action? Do you

want this to just be like, "All right,

man. Sure. Okay." Like, how do you want

to treat it? You know, I I guess my

answer to that is a lot of like lay the

foundation, do the ground work. Uh

second thing that I would say is that

boundaries are always about the

combination of uh empathy and clarity.

>> This is what's happening.

Wow. Yeah, I get that. That makes you

feel bad.

Wow. Oh, yeah. I don't, you know, this

wasn't intended to make you feel bad.

This is something I'm doing for me. I

understand if it's disappointing. Really

sorry to hear that. Uh, but this is what

I've decided to do.

>> Yeah. This is kind of a version of the

second one that I'll mention here, which

is called gray rock sometimes, which I

love this name. It's an incredibly great

name for a kind of exit strategy. You

become boring and uninteresting.

you're not escalating. You're you're

putting the lid on top of the fire and

A lot of the time, people who are this

way that we've been talking about

throughout the episode are really

interested in the emotional payoff from

these kinds of relationships.

Whether it's narcissistic supplies or

it's just kind of feeding on your

reactions, whatever it is, they like the

intensity. They kind of like the chaos

of it, right?

And the goal is kind of to make them

find some other shiny object out there.

So, you become very boring, right? This

is typically not for active romantic

relationships, although there could be a

version of this that could work. Um,

this is much better with sort of

problematic friends or, you know, your

ex or family members who are just like

fishing for a reaction constantly. You

can be in the world of like, "Wow, yeah,

so sorry to hear that.

It's really okay to not respond to the bait.

bait.

I feel bad because they said thing does

not mean that I must say thing to them

now. And I think that's also kind of a

version of what you're describing here, Dad.

Dad.

>> Oh, that's great. And you make me think

about third party situations where they

want to talk with you about a third

person that you both know probably

>> or not always, but they're they're just

complaining and they want to get you up

about it. Yeah. And to me, I like this grey rock thing where you're you're not

grey rock thing where you're you're not hanging up on them, but you're just not

hanging up on them, but you're just not feeding it any juice. You're not

feeding it any juice. You're not >> Yeah. You're not asking any questions.

>> Yeah. You're not asking any questions. You're not

You're not >> really get disagreeing. You're just

>> really get disagreeing. You're just staying out of the tangle.

staying out of the tangle. >> Yeah. And sometimes that'll make them

>> Yeah. And sometimes that'll make them fish for reaction by poking the gray

fish for reaction by poking the gray rock.

rock. >> Wow, you're being a real gray rock over

>> Wow, you're being a real gray rock over there. Wow, you're you're being Why

there. Wow, you're you're being Why aren't you listening to me? I feel like

aren't you listening to me? I feel like you're not listening to me.

you're not listening to me. what's sometimes called an extinction

what's sometimes called an extinction burst. The classic example of this is

burst. The classic example of this is you you do an experiment that includes

you you do an experiment that includes like a smart dog, something like that.

like a smart dog, something like that. And every time the dog pushes a button,

And every time the dog pushes a button, they get like a big steak, right? And

they get like a big steak, right? And then uh you change the buttons. So every

then uh you change the buttons. So every time the dog pushes the button, they get

time the dog pushes the button, they get like a a dry chicken carcass. They're

like a a dry chicken carcass. They're not happy. They they want the big steak

not happy. They they want the big steak >> for the vegetarians among us. But keep

>> for the vegetarians among us. But keep going.

going. >> Well, maybe that's a dog. All right. I

>> Well, maybe that's a dog. All right. I don't know.

don't know. >> I know. how many how many rudabas dogs

>> I know. how many how many rudabas dogs are consuming or maybe they are. Who's

are consuming or maybe they are. Who's to say? Uh a vegan vegan dog mix that's

to say? Uh a vegan vegan dog mix that's healthy for them. Whatever it is, um the

healthy for them. Whatever it is, um the the point is that when they start

the point is that when they start >> getting the chicken carcass,

>> getting the chicken carcass, >> they freak out. They get pissed. They

>> they freak out. They get pissed. They start slamming the button going, "Give

start slamming the button going, "Give me my steak." Okay.

me my steak." Okay. >> Yeah. Right.

>> Yeah. Right. >> We do that, too. People do that, too.

>> We do that, too. People do that, too. So, when you change a paradigm with

So, when you change a paradigm with somebody else,

somebody else, >> are you saying I'm like a chicken cartis

>> are you saying I'm like a chicken cartis when I go inert around someone? Yes.

when I go inert around someone? Yes. You're trying to become the chicken

You're trying to become the chicken carcass. You do not want to Yeah. You

carcass. You do not want to Yeah. You You don't You don't want to reward the

You don't You don't want to reward the the person for clicking the button. You

the person for clicking the button. You want to make that button very

want to make that button very unrewarding for them, but in the short

unrewarding for them, but in the short term, it's going to freak them out. It's

term, it's going to freak them out. It's totally going to freak them out and

totally going to freak them out and they're going to get more intense.

they're going to get more intense. They're going to get more weird. A

They're going to get more weird. A little bit of a subtext here is that

little bit of a subtext here is that it's actually really true that uh people

it's actually really true that uh people can get stalked in very creepy ways,

can get stalked in very creepy ways, even potentially violently. So, I hate

even potentially violently. So, I hate to say it, but we want to include that

to say it, but we want to include that as something to to really think about.

as something to to really think about. >> Oh, for sure. Yeah.

>> Oh, for sure. Yeah. >> You know, Yeah.

>> You know, Yeah. >> And to protect yourself and be

>> And to protect yourself and be thoughtful. Yeah. Protect yourself.

thoughtful. Yeah. Protect yourself. Totally.

Totally. >> Totally. Um and to take your safety

>> Totally. Um and to take your safety really seriously.

really seriously. >> That's right.

>> That's right. >> Uh when you get freaked out and look, I

>> Uh when you get freaked out and look, I want to be clear, law enforcement far

want to be clear, law enforcement far from perfect. There are a million

from perfect. There are a million stories of people uh calling the police

stories of people uh calling the police every day about this spooky situation

every day about this spooky situation and not enough being done to to

and not enough being done to to circumvent a bad thing happening and

circumvent a bad thing happening and then a bad thing ends up happening. It

then a bad thing ends up happening. It happens all the time.

happens all the time. >> Um

>> Um >> still do what you can. Use the resources

>> still do what you can. Use the resources that exist. Talk to the people. Stay

that exist. Talk to the people. Stay with a friend. Uh this is part of why

with a friend. Uh this is part of why that cutting people off from resources

that cutting people off from resources is such a big control strategy and it's

is such a big control strategy and it's such a big part of the problem. Like see

such a big part of the problem. Like see if you can build a network if you are in

if you can build a network if you are in one of those spooky situations. See if

one of those spooky situations. See if you can build a little bit of a network

you can build a little bit of a network before you extract yourself, right? So

before you extract yourself, right? So you've got resources, people,

you've got resources, people, situations, things you can lean on. So

situations, things you can lean on. So what's coming to mind for me now, Dad,

what's coming to mind for me now, Dad, is like, okay, let's say somebody's kind

is like, okay, let's say somebody's kind of done this. They've they've left the

of done this. They've they've left the relationship with this kind of person.

relationship with this kind of person. Uh they're I'm painting a picture. Their

Uh they're I'm painting a picture. Their 18-month relationship with somebody who

18-month relationship with somebody who kind of got sketchier and sketchier and

kind of got sketchier and sketchier and spookier and spookier. They've they've

spookier and spookier. They've they've broken up. It's very common for people

broken up. It's very common for people to get sucked back in. It's very common

to get sucked back in. It's very common for people to return to that ex or

for people to return to that ex or whatever the situation is. What do you

whatever the situation is. What do you think helps people stay extracted? the

think helps people stay extracted? the attraction

attraction of everything other than

of everything other than >> the problematic relationship. Just

>> the problematic relationship. Just drawing them in new friends, new time,

drawing them in new friends, new time, new activities, uh good friends, good

new activities, uh good friends, good activities, uh good rhythms in your day,

activities, uh good rhythms in your day, you know, good, you know, getting back

you know, good, you know, getting back into exercise, uh walk walking in the

into exercise, uh walk walking in the park, sitting on the bench, and

park, sitting on the bench, and meditating, whatever. You know, I think

meditating, whatever. You know, I think that's a real key for a lot of people.

that's a real key for a lot of people. um the problem you left really

um the problem you left really diminishes in the rearview mirror as you

diminishes in the rearview mirror as you step increasingly into the good life you

step increasingly into the good life you now have. That's not to be

now have. That's not to be underestimated. That's a really big

underestimated. That's a really big thing. That would be one. Second, uh,

thing. That would be one. Second, uh, write a letter to yourself or a note or

write a letter to yourself or a note or two to yourself when you start thinking

two to yourself when you start thinking about calling that other person or

about calling that other person or communicating with them or starting the

communicating with them or starting the process that you know will, you know,

process that you know will, you know, kind of culminate in you getting sucked

kind of culminate in you getting sucked back in. Write a letter when you're in

back in. Write a letter when you're in your right mind to read when you're in

your right mind to read when you're in your wrong mind and about to pick up the

your wrong mind and about to pick up the phone. Like that's a literally a

phone. Like that's a literally a technique. It's not a bad one. Yeah. Go.

technique. It's not a bad one. Yeah. Go. It works for sobriety as well. when you

It works for sobriety as well. when you want to, you know, take a break, drink

want to, you know, take a break, drink or do a line, um, read that letter you

or do a line, um, read that letter you wrote to yourself.

wrote to yourself. Another, uh, is to have a trusty friend

Another, uh, is to have a trusty friend who's a confidant. Often people do have

who's a confidant. Often people do have a confidant who I had a really important

a confidant who I had a really important mentor who enabled me to walk away from

mentor who enabled me to walk away from my cult. And part of what he offered was

my cult. And part of what he offered was that he didn't uh, and I think this is

that he didn't uh, and I think this is helpful for people, he didn't become a

helpful for people, he didn't become a fire brand. Oh my god, I can't believe

fire brand. Oh my god, I can't believe they treated you like that. He didn't

they treated you like that. He didn't because then I would have been defensive

because then I would have been defensive about this organization I'd been

about this organization I'd been involved with and given my blood and

involved with and given my blood and soul and money to. Uh, no, he was just

soul and money to. Uh, no, he was just very calm and you could feel he was sort

very calm and you could feel he was sort of looking at me and I his thought

of looking at me and I his thought balloon was a little, "Wow, Rick, I know

balloon was a little, "Wow, Rick, I know you to be a rational person who's got a

you to be a rational person who's got a lot on the ball going for you.

lot on the ball going for you. What are you doing with these people?"

What are you doing with these people?" you know, it was that kind of more calm,

you know, it was that kind of more calm, he's Midwestern kind of guy weight that

he's Midwestern kind of guy weight that really landed for me. So, that's a word

really landed for me. So, that's a word to the wise for the confidants of those

to the wise for the confidants of those who are, you know, enshed in these

who are, you know, enshed in these problematic

problematic >> and that gets to shame a little bit

>> and that gets to shame a little bit again like right, you know, how how do

again like right, you know, how how do we avoid this process, this extraction

we avoid this process, this extraction process, this staying extraction

process, this staying extraction extracted process? How do we avoid it

extracted process? How do we avoid it activating shame?

activating shame? like the defensiveness you're

like the defensiveness you're describing. One way to view it is as a

describing. One way to view it is as a kind of like protection against feeling,

kind of like protection against feeling, "Oh, yeah, you're right. Wow, that was

"Oh, yeah, you're right. Wow, that was so dumb of me. Now I have to defend the

so dumb of me. Now I have to defend the thing." So, you can see what I'm what

thing." So, you can see what I'm what I'm saying.

I'm saying. >> Oh, totally right. And that's why I

>> Oh, totally right. And that's why I think Great point, Forest. What's

think Great point, Forest. What's appropriate is grief, not shame.

appropriate is grief, not shame. >> Yeah. Love that. and and also anger at

>> Yeah. Love that. and and also anger at how you have been exploited,

how you have been exploited, ripped off, extracted from, used,

you know, that's helpful, too. Healthy anger about all this, you know, and and

anger about all this, you know, and and some grief and a sense of how your own

some grief and a sense of how your own virtues kept you in the game, kept you.

virtues kept you in the game, kept you. So, I think that that really helps. So,

So, I think that that really helps. So, having a confidant, that really helps.

having a confidant, that really helps. And gosh, the last thing I'll just offer

And gosh, the last thing I'll just offer um is goes back to our thing about, you

um is goes back to our thing about, you know, the opposite of self-abandonment

know, the opposite of self-abandonment is self allegiance, self- loyalty.

is self allegiance, self- loyalty. You're on your own side. And to just

You're on your own side. And to just really be grounded in uh no um and and

really be grounded in uh no um and and being kind of cleareyed, just there's no

being kind of cleareyed, just there's no cheese down that tunnel. You know, that

cheese down that tunnel. You know, that duck will never fly like an eagle. It's

duck will never fly like an eagle. It's never going to be better. about being

never going to be better. about being kind of disenchanted about it I think

kind of disenchanted about it I think can be a big piece of this for people

can be a big piece of this for people that that feeling of look uh there is no

that that feeling of look uh there is no mystery box here

mystery box here because I actually know what's in the

because I actually know what's in the mystery box I know that it is not uh to

mystery box I know that it is not uh to quote Family Guy a boat you know it's a

quote Family Guy a boat you know it's a something else it's a it's a chicken

something else it's a it's a chicken carcass to continue our our metaphor

carcass to continue our our metaphor right like I I know what this looks like

right like I I know what this looks like best predictor of the future is the past

best predictor of the future is the past >> yeah what's going to make the next 12

>> yeah what's going to make the next 12 months or 12 weeks or 12 days or 12

months or 12 weeks or 12 days or 12 hours be better than the last 12 weeks,

hours be better than the last 12 weeks, 12 days, you know, 12 months. Um, and if

12 days, you know, 12 months. Um, and if it's not going to be better, causes and

it's not going to be better, causes and conditions, move on. It's another

conditions, move on. It's another important thing, too. It's that in my

important thing, too. It's that in my opinion, I'm just kind of rant a little

opinion, I'm just kind of rant a little bit, man. This is your one life. It's

bit, man. This is your one life. It's your one life. This is your one day.

your one life. This is your one day. Sorry. Can you get yesterday back? No.

Sorry. Can you get yesterday back? No. And not to freak out, but it literally

And not to freak out, but it literally is your life. It's that this grain of

is your life. It's that this grain of sand is falling through the hourglass

sand is falling through the hourglass today, right? So, um, if you're in a

today, right? So, um, if you're in a mediocre relationship

mediocre relationship or a relationship that's aces and

or a relationship that's aces and spaces, it's got some good qualities,

spaces, it's got some good qualities, but wow, there are some costs in it,

but wow, there are some costs in it, there's some liabilities in it. Guess

there's some liabilities in it. Guess what? It's crowding out what could be

what? It's crowding out what could be better.

better. And the clock is ticking on what could

And the clock is ticking on what could be better. that's being crowded out by,

be better. that's being crowded out by, you know, the eh situation you're

you know, the eh situation you're currently in.

currently in. >> It's been great talking with you about

>> It's been great talking with you about this today, Dad. Is there anything else

this today, Dad. Is there anything else that you want to say at the very end

that you want to say at the very end here? I thought that was a fantastic

here? I thought that was a fantastic kind of like fade out into the distance

kind of like fade out into the distance at the end of this episode, but I I want

at the end of this episode, but I I want to give you an opportunity if there's

to give you an opportunity if there's anything else that's just been like kind

anything else that's just been like kind of like tickling the back of your brain.

of like tickling the back of your brain. >> Well, I I find myself wondering about

>> Well, I I find myself wondering about you and I'm going to be forgive me. I

you and I'm going to be forgive me. I I'm a little because I've known you. Um

I'm a little because I've known you. Um >> No, you don't say. you're such a sweet

>> No, you don't say. you're such a sweet person. Um, and I just wonder if there

person. Um, and I just wonder if there have been ways in which your own kind of

have been ways in which your own kind of sweetness

sweetness has kept you in certain situations past

has kept you in certain situations past their sell by date.

their sell by date. >> Yeah, as I as I alluded to at the

>> Yeah, as I as I alluded to at the beginning of the episode, I definitely

beginning of the episode, I definitely had one version of one of these that

had one version of one of these that that kind of showed up for me once upon

that kind of showed up for me once upon a time. This was decade ago or something

a time. This was decade ago or something like that. I was I was a very different

like that. I was I was a very different person. Um, but essentially it was a

person. Um, but essentially it was a situation where I it was somebody who

situation where I it was somebody who was pretty emotionally volatile and also

was pretty emotionally volatile and also did a lot of that fast forwarding of

did a lot of that fast forwarding of intimacy and all of a sudden you're

intimacy and all of a sudden you're having these like long 2-hour long

having these like long 2-hour long conversations while you're driving in

conversations while you're driving in the car from point A to point B and and

the car from point A to point B and and you just and it feels so connected and

you just and it feels so connected and then the other side of that is the

then the other side of that is the emotional volatility and instability.

emotional volatility and instability. That's really what I got a lot of. And

That's really what I got a lot of. And um not even necessarily somebody who I

um not even necessarily somebody who I would refer to kind of to your point

would refer to kind of to your point throughout this episode, Dad. I wouldn't

throughout this episode, Dad. I wouldn't say this person was like a bad person.

say this person was like a bad person. They were not a narcissist. They were

They were not a narcissist. They were not, you know, machavelian in in the

not, you know, machavelian in in the sense of that term that we used it

sense of that term that we used it today.

today. >> They were just somebody who was not well

>> They were just somebody who was not well grounded. They were not well mored. Um

grounded. They were not well mored. Um and

and >> it was putting me increasingly in weird

>> it was putting me increasingly in weird situations, like weird social

situations, like weird social situations. They were not reliable. They

situations. They were not reliable. They were not trustworthy.

were not trustworthy. And to your point, I think that I felt a

And to your point, I think that I felt a real sense, and it's part of part of

real sense, and it's part of part of maybe this informs how people think

maybe this informs how people think about what I said throughout this

about what I said throughout this episode. Um, I had a real feeling of

episode. Um, I had a real feeling of kind of like, oh, but they're not a bad

kind of like, oh, but they're not a bad person, and oh, but I am kind of helping

person, and oh, but I am kind of helping them in these ways, and oh, but I I do I

them in these ways, and oh, but I I do I want things to go well for them.

want things to go well for them. And and then there was sort of a a

And and then there was sort of a a breaking point where just like there

breaking point where just like there were various untrustworthy behaviors

were various untrustworthy behaviors happening that then were just like deal

happening that then were just like deal breakers. Just bottom line clear as day

breakers. Just bottom line clear as day deal breakers. And that's what ended up

deal breakers. And that's what ended up kind of getting me out of it is that you

kind of getting me out of it is that you just have a moment where you were like

just have a moment where you were like whoa

whoa >> I do not want to be standing off to the

>> I do not want to be standing off to the side in this room while these two people

side in this room while these two people are like screaming at each other or

are like screaming at each other or whatever. Uh, and I I it was just like

whatever. Uh, and I I it was just like very revealing in part because hello, I

very revealing in part because hello, I had healthy relationships modeled to me

had healthy relationships modeled to me growing up. I knew that people are not

growing up. I knew that people are not really supposed to be screaming at each

really supposed to be screaming at each other in a hallway or whatever it was.

other in a hallway or whatever it was. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um, and so I could compare that

>> Um, and so I could compare that experience to something else and go,

experience to something else and go, "Wow, this is not the way I want my life

"Wow, this is not the way I want my life to look." Um, and a lot of people do not

to look." Um, and a lot of people do not have very unfortunately, sadly, they do

have very unfortunately, sadly, they do not have that healthy model. And so they

not have that healthy model. And so they just start excusing behavior and

just start excusing behavior and excusing and excusing and excusing. And

excusing and excusing and excusing. And to your point, Dad, they wake up and

to your point, Dad, they wake up and it's 8 years later. And it's like, wow,

it's 8 years later. And it's like, wow, what happened? You know, but that's

what happened? You know, but that's life. That's not about feeling shame for

life. That's not about feeling shame for what happened. It's about, okay, what do

what happened. It's about, okay, what do we do from now on? It's like you said,

we do from now on? It's like you said, dad, there there's grief. There's maybe

dad, there there's grief. There's maybe even some regret in the mix. But the

even some regret in the mix. But the healthy aspects of this are the things

healthy aspects of this are the things that help you get on your side.

that help you get on your side. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Sometimes that's anger and frustration.

>> Sometimes that's anger and frustration. Sometimes that's a strong sense of your

Sometimes that's a strong sense of your own like values and needs. Sometimes

own like values and needs. Sometimes it's a sense of like, "Wow, yeah, I got

it's a sense of like, "Wow, yeah, I got sucked into this because I'm a good

sucked into this because I'm a good person and because I do care about this

person and because I do care about this stuff, but now guess what? It's time to

stuff, but now guess what? It's time to go." You know, the clock's running out

go." You know, the clock's running out here.

>> That's a good place to end. >> Hey, maybe that's our fade out.

>> Hey, maybe that's our fade out. Normally, it's you were faded out on

Normally, it's you were faded out on buddy, but maybe faded out on me today.

buddy, but maybe faded out on me today. I had a great time talking with Rick

I had a great time talking with Rick today about disengaging from the people

today about disengaging from the people who are no longer good for us. And I

who are no longer good for us. And I started the episode by asking Rick if

started the episode by asking Rick if you had a client who came into the

you had a client who came into the office to talk with you. And they said

office to talk with you. And they said something like, "Hey, I know this person

something like, "Hey, I know this person person isn't good for me. I keep on

person isn't good for me. I keep on trying to extract from this relationship

trying to extract from this relationship and I just can't do it. Please give me

and I just can't do it. Please give me some advice here, Rick." He led by

some advice here, Rick." He led by saying to pay attention to the ways in

saying to pay attention to the ways in which your good nature, the good aspects

which your good nature, the good aspects of who you are are keeping you stuck.

of who you are are keeping you stuck. And I thought that was just such an

And I thought that was just such an interesting thing to lead with. The idea

interesting thing to lead with. The idea that your empathy could be keeping you

that your empathy could be keeping you trapped. Your sense of care and concern,

trapped. Your sense of care and concern, sense of duty to this other person could

sense of duty to this other person could be keeping you trapped. Your belief in

be keeping you trapped. Your belief in them and their ability to change for the

them and their ability to change for the better in the future. That is a huge one

better in the future. That is a huge one for people. That's probably number one.

for people. That's probably number one. The belief that somewhere down the line

The belief that somewhere down the line they will finally change and your belief

they will finally change and your belief in them will finally be paid off. But

in them will finally be paid off. But the sand flows through the hourglass.

the sand flows through the hourglass. You know, time rolls ever on and the

You know, time rolls ever on and the best predictor of the future is the

best predictor of the future is the past. So then at the very end of the

past. So then at the very end of the conversation, Rick closed with the idea

conversation, Rick closed with the idea of going, "Hey, if I knew that the next

of going, "Hey, if I knew that the next year were going to be like the last year

year were going to be like the last year with this person, whatever your

with this person, whatever your relationship is with them, if they're a

relationship is with them, if they're a romantic partner, a friend, family

romantic partner, a friend, family member, your job, whatever it is, if the

member, your job, whatever it is, if the next year were going to be the same as

next year were going to be the same as the last year, what would I do?" and

the last year, what would I do?" and approaching things from that mindset can

approaching things from that mindset can be really clarifying because this is a

be really clarifying because this is a set of circumstances whereas we talked

set of circumstances whereas we talked about a little bit later in the episode.

about a little bit later in the episode. There is often a lot of fuzz. There's a

There is often a lot of fuzz. There's a lot of vagueness and what did they mean

lot of vagueness and what did they mean and they say that they meant this but I

and they say that they meant this but I felt that and they keep on trying to

felt that and they keep on trying to convince me that all these things that I

convince me that all these things that I don't like are actually kind of good for

don't like are actually kind of good for me or actually them looking out for me

me or actually them looking out for me and they're very controlling but then

and they're very controlling but then they just tell me it's because they that

they just tell me it's because they that they love me so much. What do I do? And

they love me so much. What do I do? And that's why we got into some of the key

that's why we got into some of the key traits that can be big red flags here.

traits that can be big red flags here. Uh first, various forms of grandiosity

Uh first, various forms of grandiosity or even narcissism. And I'm not

or even narcissism. And I'm not necessarily talking here about

necessarily talking here about diagnosible narcissistic personality

diagnosible narcissistic personality disorder. People with NPD are actually

disorder. People with NPD are actually quite uncommon. I got into a big fight

quite uncommon. I got into a big fight in the YouTube comments the last time

in the YouTube comments the last time that I said that. But hey, it's true.

that I said that. But hey, it's true. The research that we have consistently

The research that we have consistently suggests that it's like 1% of the

suggests that it's like 1% of the population with NPD. But narcissistic

population with NPD. But narcissistic traits can be much more common and you

traits can be much more common and you don't need to be a full-blown narcissist

don't need to be a full-blown narcissist to be a problematic person to be in a

to be a problematic person to be in a relationship with. Then what's called

relationship with. Then what's called mchavelianism and this is covert forms

mchavelianism and this is covert forms of manipulation. Any kind of

of manipulation. Any kind of manipulative behavior or gaslighting

manipulative behavior or gaslighting would fall into here. And then third,

would fall into here. And then third, various forms of antisocial personality

various forms of antisocial personality traits. This is somebody who just kind

traits. This is somebody who just kind of doesn't care about other people very

of doesn't care about other people very much. And the big question here is not

much. And the big question here is not what are they like at their best. It's

what are they like at their best. It's what are they like on a bad day. Not

what are they like on a bad day. Not their worst day, just a normal bad day.

their worst day, just a normal bad day. Anybody can look good under ideal

Anybody can look good under ideal conditions. And problematic people land

conditions. And problematic people land in relationships and land in

in relationships and land in relationships even with smart,

relationships even with smart, thoughtful, educated, psychoeducated,

thoughtful, educated, psychoeducated, um, caring, concerned people in part

um, caring, concerned people in part because they have other traits that,

because they have other traits that, hello, suck people in, right? They're

hello, suck people in, right? They're charismatic. They've got some sex

charismatic. They've got some sex appeal. there's a fun factor. Maybe they

appeal. there's a fun factor. Maybe they really know how to make you laugh. Maybe

really know how to make you laugh. Maybe they came up to you at some kind of a

they came up to you at some kind of a social thing and just really quickly it

social thing and just really quickly it felt like, "Wow, I've known this person

felt like, "Wow, I've known this person forever and oh, they they just like look

forever and oh, they they just like look into my eyes and I I get lost in it."

into my eyes and I I get lost in it." You know, whatever it is for you. And

You know, whatever it is for you. And this is why that fast forwarding of

this is why that fast forwarding of intimacy can be a big problem. Yes,

intimacy can be a big problem. Yes, sometimes in life there are, you know,

sometimes in life there are, you know, starcrossed lovers. Yes, sometimes you

starcrossed lovers. Yes, sometimes you meet somebody and you're just like, "Oh,

meet somebody and you're just like, "Oh, yeah, this person gets it." And that can

yeah, this person gets it." And that can be really real. I've had friendships

be really real. I've had friendships like that. Elizabeth has had friendships

like that. Elizabeth has had friendships like that. But man, there are a million

like that. But man, there are a million examples out there of that going real

examples out there of that going real sideways for people. One of the reasons

sideways for people. One of the reasons for this is that it can quickly create

for this is that it can quickly create this kind of us against the world

this kind of us against the world feeling which then isolates the victim

feeling which then isolates the victim from their support networks. And this

from their support networks. And this can be paired with a kind of cutting off

can be paired with a kind of cutting off from other forms of support. You know,

from other forms of support. You know, why are you always friends with people

why are you always friends with people who don't like me? Over time, what can

who don't like me? Over time, what can happen is that a person's life just gets

happen is that a person's life just gets smaller and smaller and smaller. You

smaller and smaller and smaller. You can't talk to that person. You can't be

can't talk to that person. You can't be friends with that guy. I don't like it

friends with that guy. I don't like it when you go to those kinds of places cuz

when you go to those kinds of places cuz I get really worried. You know, you're

I get really worried. You know, you're you're dancing with somebody who's not

you're dancing with somebody who's not me. Whatever it is, as long as we're

me. Whatever it is, as long as we're talking about the spooko meter here, the

talking about the spooko meter here, the things that get me concerned, the big

things that get me concerned, the big spook for me, you know, outside of

spook for me, you know, outside of obviously forms of abuse are cycles of

obviously forms of abuse are cycles of idealization and devaluation. So, this

idealization and devaluation. So, this is when somebody really builds you up

is when somebody really builds you up some of the time and really tears you

some of the time and really tears you down some of the time. When the person

down some of the time. When the person is getting everything that they want,

is getting everything that they want, they can be great. Of course, they're

they can be great. Of course, they're great. They're getting everything that

great. They're getting everything that they want. Everyone can be great when

they want. Everyone can be great when they're getting everything that they

they're getting everything that they want. What happens when they have to

want. What happens when they have to compromise? What happens when you make

compromise? What happens when you make an ask? What happens when you have

an ask? What happens when you have different values from theirs? All of

different values from theirs? All of this leads to a feeling of walking on

this leads to a feeling of walking on eggshells. And under extreme conditions,

eggshells. And under extreme conditions, this can even result in something that's

this can even result in something that's called trauma bonding. We didn't talk

called trauma bonding. We didn't talk about trauma bonding very much during

about trauma bonding very much during the conversation. It was kind of

the conversation. It was kind of implicit in some of what we talked

implicit in some of what we talked about. At its core, trauma bonding is

about. At its core, trauma bonding is based on that kind of rubber band

based on that kind of rubber band idealization to devaluation

idealization to devaluation reinforcement loop that starts to kind

reinforcement loop that starts to kind of tie together pain with reward. Well,

of tie together pain with reward. Well, I felt pain today, so that probably

I felt pain today, so that probably means that I'll kind of get a reward

means that I'll kind of get a reward tomorrow. It also normally includes a

tomorrow. It also normally includes a big power imbalance, I talked about that

big power imbalance, I talked about that a bit during the episode, between the

a bit during the episode, between the victim and the abuser and also some

victim and the abuser and also some degree of isolation from healthier

degree of isolation from healthier attachment figures. Part of the theory

attachment figures. Part of the theory behind trauma bonding is that we are so

behind trauma bonding is that we are so desperate to find somebody, anybody to

desperate to find somebody, anybody to attach to that will take what we can get

attach to that will take what we can get even if that figure is an abuser. So to

even if that figure is an abuser. So to quickly recap here, some of the red

quickly recap here, some of the red flags I've named so far are accelerated

flags I've named so far are accelerated intimacy, which is also called

intimacy, which is also called lovebombing, uh rubber banding from good

lovebombing, uh rubber banding from good to bad, and then various control

to bad, and then various control strategies that are disguised as really

strategies that are disguised as really caring for you. Few other things that I

caring for you. Few other things that I would add to that list. First, intense

would add to that list. First, intense anger or withdrawal when they're

anger or withdrawal when they're challenged. Then, chronic fuzz. We

challenged. Then, chronic fuzz. We talked about this a good bit during the

talked about this a good bit during the conversation. These people hate clarity.

conversation. These people hate clarity. They hate a written agreement. They hate

They hate a written agreement. They hate being pinned down about what their

being pinned down about what their values are, what their boundaries are,

values are, what their boundaries are, particularly

particularly which of your boundaries they will

which of your boundaries they will actually respect or what they will

actually respect or what they will actually commit to do in the future or

actually commit to do in the future or you know, yes, I agree to that thing

you know, yes, I agree to that thing over there and I will show up at 9:00

over there and I will show up at 9:00 a.m. and then when they don't, they're

a.m. and then when they don't, they're like, wow, I'm so sorry. If that

like, wow, I'm so sorry. If that happens, if they make an agreement and

happens, if they make an agreement and then they don't follow through and they

then they don't follow through and they authentically apologize,

authentically apologize, they're probably doing okay. Most of the

they're probably doing okay. Most of the time, these people hate an authentic

time, these people hate an authentic apology. There is always an explanation

apology. There is always an explanation for why things went the way that they

for why things went the way that they did. Or at the very least, they just

did. Or at the very least, they just collapse. Oh my god, I can't. I'm the

collapse. Oh my god, I can't. I'm the most horrible person in the world. That

most horrible person in the world. That kind of thing. Where there's again this

kind of thing. Where there's again this kind of draw for support from you. And

kind of draw for support from you. And this was one of the things that Rick

this was one of the things that Rick highlighted throughout the conversation.

highlighted throughout the conversation. Do you feel big and strong with this

Do you feel big and strong with this person or do you feel small and weak? Do

person or do you feel small and weak? Do they push you from being big and strong

they push you from being big and strong one moment to small and weak the next

one moment to small and weak the next moment? As you get bigger and stronger,

moment? As you get bigger and stronger, do they support you? Do they validate

do they support you? Do they validate you? Are they on your team? Or do they

you? Are they on your team? Or do they start trying to kind of pull you back

start trying to kind of pull you back down? Are they receptive to your

down? Are they receptive to your requests? Are they open to changing the

requests? Are they open to changing the behaviors that you find most

behaviors that you find most problematic? Is there anything that

problematic? Is there anything that keeps on coming up that makes other

keeps on coming up that makes other people raise their eyebrows all the

people raise their eyebrows all the time? Do they show empathy and care

time? Do they show empathy and care toward other people even when it doesn't

toward other people even when it doesn't benefit them? Are your other

benefit them? Are your other relationships just getting smaller and

relationships just getting smaller and smaller? These are all things you can

smaller? These are all things you can look out for. Then toward the end of the

look out for. Then toward the end of the conversation, we started talking about

conversation, we started talking about ways to exit these kinds of

ways to exit these kinds of relationships. This is hyper

relationships. This is hyper situational. The big picture stuff that

situational. The big picture stuff that we mentioned is for starters, lay a

we mentioned is for starters, lay a foundation. Have a plan. don't have

foundation. Have a plan. don't have things that you like over at their house

things that you like over at their house if it's a romantic relationship. Uh

if it's a romantic relationship. Uh change the locks, you know, whatever it

change the locks, you know, whatever it is that you think that you need to do to

is that you think that you need to do to keep yourself safe and be thoughtful.

keep yourself safe and be thoughtful. Then we talked about different uh

Then we talked about different uh strategies that people might have. We

strategies that people might have. We talked about direct kind of no drama

talked about direct kind of no drama communication if it makes sense in the

communication if it makes sense in the relationship that you have. Gray rocking

relationship that you have. Gray rocking when you just become progressively

when you just become progressively uninteresting. Frankly, if this is a

uninteresting. Frankly, if this is a real safety situation, then forms of

real safety situation, then forms of ghosting can be an appropriate response.

ghosting can be an appropriate response. In general, I do not encourage people to

In general, I do not encourage people to do that in their relationships, but if

do that in their relationships, but if you're dealing with one of these

you're dealing with one of these situations, sometimes you need to just

situations, sometimes you need to just leave. Rick also mentioned various forms

leave. Rick also mentioned various forms of third-party communication, which can

of third-party communication, which can be appropriate sometimes if it's no

be appropriate sometimes if it's no longer safe for you to communicate, but

longer safe for you to communicate, but you still got to have some kind of

you still got to have some kind of contact. We're in the world of a lawyer,

contact. We're in the world of a lawyer, human resources, you know, whatever it

human resources, you know, whatever it is that communicating through a friend,

is that communicating through a friend, whatever it is that you need to do to

whatever it is that you need to do to maintain your safety. We then closed the

maintain your safety. We then closed the conversation with Rick giving some

conversation with Rick giving some examples of what helps a person stay

examples of what helps a person stay disengaged. And I really appreciated

disengaged. And I really appreciated some of his ideas in here. I thought

some of his ideas in here. I thought they were quite clever. Writing a letter

they were quite clever. Writing a letter to yourself right now that you read when

to yourself right now that you read when you're thinking about, you know,

you're thinking about, you know, reconnecting with your ex or whatever it

reconnecting with your ex or whatever it is. His number one piece of advice was

is. His number one piece of advice was finding anything else to be pulled into.

finding anything else to be pulled into. A new hobby, a a new fun activity with

A new hobby, a a new fun activity with friends, another friend group entirely,

friends, another friend group entirely, whatever it is. Find other things to

whatever it is. Find other things to occupy your attention. What you'll find

occupy your attention. What you'll find is that as the rest of your life gets

is that as the rest of your life gets bigger and more interesting, you're

bigger and more interesting, you're going to have less and less desire to

going to have less and less desire to return to this previous relationship. I

return to this previous relationship. I hope you found something in here today

hope you found something in here today useful. This is, I think, a really

useful. This is, I think, a really important conversation. It's one that

important conversation. It's one that I'm glad we did an episode on. It's also

I'm glad we did an episode on. It's also an incredibly nuanced and individual

an incredibly nuanced and individual one. And personto person, things are

one. And personto person, things are going to really vary here. So if you are

going to really vary here. So if you are watching on YouTube and you want to

watching on YouTube and you want to leave a comment down below, asking us

leave a comment down below, asking us about some aspect of this, sharing your

about some aspect of this, sharing your own experience with it, giving some of

own experience with it, giving some of the learning that that you've had

the learning that that you've had through life. Uh this is a place where I

through life. Uh this is a place where I think that there are a lot of different

think that there are a lot of different right answers and frankly a lot of

right answers and frankly a lot of different wrong answers depending on the

different wrong answers depending on the specific situation. And so this podcast

specific situation. And so this podcast format where we're just kind of talking

format where we're just kind of talking in generalities is going to be helpful

in generalities is going to be helpful in some ways, but might not speak to

in some ways, but might not speak to your specific situation. So, if we can

your specific situation. So, if we can all kind of pile in and help each other

all kind of pile in and help each other a little bit, then maybe there's some

a little bit, then maybe there's some value there. If you're listening on

value there. If you're listening on Apple or Spotify, you can leave a rating

Apple or Spotify, you can leave a rating and a positive review. That really helps

and a positive review. That really helps us out. If you'd like to support the

us out. If you'd like to support the show in other ways, you can find us on

show in other ways, you can find us on Patreon. patreon.com/beingwellodcast.

Patreon. patreon.com/beingwellodcast. At the very end here, I want to give you

At the very end here, I want to give you another quick reminder about Rick's

another quick reminder about Rick's foundations of well-being program. You

foundations of well-being program. You can find it at

can find it at rickansson.com/foundations.

Use the code beingwell 25. That's the number 25 for 25% off discount on top of

number 25 for 25% off discount on top of whatever sales and offerings and so on

whatever sales and offerings and so on are running right now. It's a really

are running right now. It's a really cool program. If you like the podcast, I

cool program. If you like the podcast, I think that you'll really enjoy it. And

think that you'll really enjoy it. And until next time, thanks again for

until next time, thanks again for listening and we'll talk to you soon.

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Why Good People Get Stuck in Bad Relationships | Being Well