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Orientalism Demystified: Eastern insights on Western myths | Doha Debates Town Hall

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This content explores the concept of Orientalism, originating from 19th-century art and extending into modern media and pop culture, highlighting how it perpetuates harmful stereotypes of the East as barbaric and exotic, thereby justifying Western dominance and intervention.

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in order for France and England and then

later on the United States to go out and

rape and pillage most of the world they

had to portray the people they were

going to invade and occupy as the

opposite as Savage and barbaric the art

has actually paved the way for this to

happen because they're painting us as

the three bees as they say either a

bomber a billionaire or a belly dancer I

think that that's a really important to

point to recognize the diversity of the

West and the ideologies within it

without essentializing it and

stereotyping it [Music]

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also [Music]

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hello and welcome to this town hall from

Doha debates I'm Dina takruri and I'll

be your moderator for our discussion on

orientalism so you might be wondering

why we're having a conversation about

19th century art at this moment or how

it can help us better understand the

world today before we get started I'd

like to take a moment to address the

current events in the region which I

know is affecting are affecting so many

of us today with so much vience

happening so close it can be challenging

to focus on something like art but this

discussion is very much framed by the

ongoing events to grasp the connection

let's take a brief moment to unpack what

orientalism really is because it sounds

a bit academic doesn't it and it is but

even if you've never heard the term

before you may find it surprisingly

look hey

Baghdad city of magic I've come for the

head what did I just watch I made that

up you sure did ever heard of

orientalism well this is it let's

rewind back to parts of the 18th and

19th century when orientalism was an

aesthetic movement that examined the

Arab North African and Asian worlds

through newly introduced Western eyes

the paintings from this period after

France invaded Egypt show a fascination

with the East but also a reduction they

often portrayed Arabs and Asians as

villainous exotic barbaric

mysterious women in particular are

helpless and highly sexualized they

stand to say even more about how these

artists from the West viewed their own

culture in relation masculine rational

superior but orientalism isn't just an

artistic movement palestinian-american

scholar Edward S reimagined the

definition in his book entitled

orientalism in it he argues the Orient

was almost a European invention and had

been since Antiquity a place of romance

exotic beings haunting memories and

Landscapes remarkable experiences for

him the 20th century was no different

fanaticism violence Etc always

associated with the Arabs with Islam

Arabs are always being killed they're

always associated with what is negative

uh and and and regressive sounds a lot

like where they cut off your ear if they

don't like your face it's bartic but hey it's

it's

home especially in Pop Culture The

Orient which comes from the Latin word

orians or east is a direction not a

place east of what of whom unclear but

let me tell you there's lots of camels

and sensual albeit blurry desert heat on

the other hand is the oxident the

west and there are realworld

implications to how we view each other

besides reinforcing stereotypes if the

Middle East North Africa and Asia are

backwards inferior places in need of

saving someone just might try my fellow

citizens at this hour American and

Coalition forces are in the early stages

of military operations to disarm Iraq to

free its people and to defend the world

from grave danger yet others argue that

orientalism as it relates to Art hasn't

necessarily had such far-ranging

implications ultimately are many of

these depictions often seen as

problematic yes and is there potential

to learn something valuable from them

also yes some Scholars argue that

orientalism should be framed Beyond

stereotypes to allow space for the study

of how cultures come come to understand

one another today media companies and

museums alike are trying to navigate

their position on showcasing historic

representations by deciding whether to

retain recontextualize or remove them

entirely if you stream Aladdin today for

example you'll see an unskipable message

that Disney added before the film it

reads in part this program includes

negative depictions Andor mistreatment

of people or cultures rather than remove

this content we want to acknowledge its

harmful impact learn from it and Spark

conversation to create a more inclusive

future together in an increasingly

polarized world it's worth asking

whether recontextualization for these

depictions is the right approach what

value they can offer as is or if

outright explusion makes the most

sense so we've just learned a bit about

the palestinian-american scholar Edward

Sid and his seminal work orientalism

it's crucial to note that his work was

partly driven by the 1973 war between

Egypt Syria and Israel and particularly

by the Western media's portrayal of

Arabs in its coverage he argued that The

Human Side of the Islamic and especially

Arab world is rarely found in such

coverage and I'm sure many of us here

have witnessed examples of this

ourselves I certainly have as a

journalist based in the US and we all

know the significant impact Western

media has today and we all share the

frustration when they get it wrong many

of us here in the room tonight identify

as Arab but as we know Arabs are not

monolith we represent a mosaic of

distinct cultures traditions and

dialects but because Western media and

pop culture are so influential their

depiction of us matters tonight I invite

you to delve into the deep roots of

orientalism as Edward SED understood it

at a time when reflection is more vital

than ever now let me outline the

structure of our town hall tonight we'll

first examine the origins of orientalism

as the artistic movement that emerged in

the 19th century will then transition

from past to the present discussing

whether Western pop culture and media

still perpetuate orientalist fantasies

and stereotypes about the East and

finally we'll look into the future

debating the role of museums in

showcasing orientalist art and as we

strip away the layers of orientalism

let's try to look beyond the canvas uh

in into the impact that it has that it

has had and continues to have today on

how we see the world and also

how we see each other and on that note I

am delighted to be joined today by

students and recent graduates from

universities here inq they will be

guiding our conversations today thank

you guys for being here so much

additionally I'm joined by three guests

khud alahad is a curator writer and

researcher she joined katar museums in

2011 and is currently the acting deputy

director of curatorial Affairs at lucel

Museum Fatima buo is a speaker activist

and author most recently of the book New

Kings of the world dispatches from

Bollywood dizzy and K-pop which is about

the the rise of a vast cultural movement

originating from the global South and

finally enia Farin Iman is a broadcast

journalist and commentator who focuses

on the topics of freedom of speech and

identity politics Ania is also the

cultural management and youth engagement

trustee for London's National Portrait

Gallery we are so honored to have you

all join us tonight to have this conf

ation I'm really looking forward to it

um and thank you to everybody for

joining this town hall now if it didn't

already catch your eye because we're

putting it up right now I want to draw

everyone's attention to this painting

this is an 1866 painting by French

artist Jean Leon Jerome khud as the

curator of the lucil museum which is set

to house the world's largest orientalist

art collection talk to me a little bit

about this painting okay what are we

looking at right here and how is it both

perpetuating orientalist stereotypes and

also uh very representative of Ori

orientalist art in that era of course

Jan juram is a French artist of the 19th

century one of the leading in

stereotyping the Orient um the viewer

okay when looks at okay such a painting

for example in the 19th century Salon um

will definitely assume that John Leon

jome has encountered such a scene okay

in his visit to Cairo um with all of

this SM

you know like with those accuracy okay

and photographic quality of the painting

um unfortunately kjam okay is using the

doorway of mosque okay and turning

turning such a place which is used to be

which is used to be like you know or

which is supposed to be a place of peace

and serenity where people worship their

god um turn it into a scene a very

creepy um scene okay with all of these

cut off heads uh piled at the doorway way

way

um a lot of research was done okay so

this is an example okay before I talk

about the research but this is an

example okay very good example of how

orientalist art okay was um in the

intersection between fact and fiction

okay between imaginary and reality

imagination and reality so um a lot of

research was done okay about this

painting and uh all of the schoolers

okay they proved that

nothing the G in has never okay seen

such a scene okay it was impossible for

contemporary Egypt okay to have such a

scene okay in the streets uh especially

in front of mosor um but this is okay

again um and emphasizing on The

Stereotype of the barbaric Orient okay

which needs control which needs the W to

go and civilize them okay to make to

save them from themselves as just George

B said okay in in the in the movie uh

we've seen um but you know as we said

okay orientalist art is is very very

free okay space which gives a lot of you

know of freedom and the interpretation

okay of those kind of scenes and um and

paintings uh also we see that okay just

okay to prove that this is imaginary

okay seen um J leum okay for example

okay was collaging okay different

elements from different architecture

okay for that um um for the for the

mosque is the big thing so it's not even

the real mosque okay which is referred

to in the title um so this is Oka this

is where we give Oka a chance for such

artworks okaya to be depicted

differently maybe today Uka in our world

Uka to see it from a different lens okay

fa I want to turn to you because even

though this scene of a mosque with

skulls hanging and and you know beheaded

heads at the doorstep is fictitious as

she pointed out uh it has an impact

right we're talking about a 200y old

painting but it still matters and it

carries weight and much of your writing

dismantles the very same stereotypes

about the East if you want to call it

that that we're looking at right here

why do you think these stereotypes are

so persistent today and do they still

influence How the West sees the East oh

they absolutely influence How the West

sees the East um in order for France and

England and then later on the United

States to go out and rape and pillage

most of the world um they had to portray

themselves as Paragons of virtue of

Science of rationale of Enlightenment

and they had to portray the people they

were going to invade and occupy as the

opposite as Savage and barbaric as hulud

said it's a fantasy and it's a fantasy

they're getting away with for hundreds

of years and we know that it's pervasive

because we're living through it every

single day some periods um it's more

transparent than others so all you have

to do is look at the language that was

used before the Iraq invasion you heard

unfortunately a snippet of it um it's a

dehumanizing language you only have to

read The Wall Street Journal any day it

doesn't matter what's happening it's in

the Wall Street Journal and you only

have to watch a Hollywood movie Edward S

himself said that when Arabs or or

Muslims are portrayed in Hollywood they

are either villains or fanatic

and if they're good guys which is a

really big if because they're never good

guys but if they are then they're

collaborators or native informers they

work with the CIA or they're a cop or

they're the

FBI and this is for a reason um you know

soft power paves the way for hard power

we call it propaganda but as Rage

Against the Machine said and I'm happy

to quote them here in Doha please do um

that there's a very thin line between

entertainment and War um all this is

preparation uh and you know we look at

it maybe as innocent It's Not Innocent

this is a preparation for a political

project that we're living through that

has disastrous consequences and is

really rather racist at its foundations

I want to turn to you anday because a

lot of people find Art like this

particular painting offensive how do we

engage with people who find it offensive

how do we textualized art like this or

or do we even I think what uh the Hud's

description of this artwork actually

really just highlights the importance of

displaying it because it's actually such

a rich source of intellectual artistic

moral and political history that can be

um illuminated and discussed from just

one piece of artwork regardless of what

you might uh think of the history itself

and I think if we use a fence as the

yard stick for whether or not we should

display or discuss particular

representations and so on like I think

that we're in a very worrying place

because as obvious as it sounds human

beings we are by definition diverse

we're informed by different cultures

different histories at different

religions and that undoubtedly will lead

to many different interpretations of

particular events um and particular

representations and I think the thing is

about art itself is often times the most

thought-provoking um and compelling

artworks are deeply offensive because

they uh challenge us and and ask us to

question um often deeply held tabos and

there's many things now that we do take

for granted um whether that is uh

equality for women uh or other values

and so on that at one point in history

uh were regarded as both Fringe and

offensive to the Orthodoxy at the time

so I don't think offense um is a very uh

compelling uh reason to not depict

something or not to discuss something CU

one person's offense could be someone

else's completely different view so in

terms of how we actually engage with

these kinds of artworks and historically

contextualize them as you as you

mentioned I think my starting point is

to recognize that two very mutually

exclusive often uh opposing views can

even have uh very compelling meaningful

and sincere justifications for those

views and I think that as long as we

keep the space open to allow those

perspectives to be discussed and this is

not to say that um everything should be

relative and there are no standards of

course we should negotiate right and

wrong but I think we have to start from

the perspective that as long as we keep

the space as open as possible as

Citizens as human beings we can come to

different conclusions and that is okay

so okay this is super interesting so far

but let's also not forget that in

addition to Long dead artists and pieces

of work like this from 200 years ago

we're also talking about very real very

alive human beings and here I want to

turn it to our students and recent

graduates on stage and I want to know

who among you has a story to share about

orientalism there's so many hands out

let's start over here you had it

first hello everyone my name is hanim

derish I'm a student in interior design

and I do think we face orientalism in

our daily lives not just me but everyone

even if it's inir or we don't notice it

one simple example is that I was once

searching for the name of the French uh

the name of the of the camera and then

Google shows me that it's a French

inventor and then but then the actual

thing is that it's foreshadowing The

Narrative of the U uh the Arabic

inventor his name Isam and he's a

mathematician a physicist and an

astronomist and he's done a lot of stuff

that contributed to the camera that we

actually use nowadays so one thing I

want to point out is that it's actually

important for us to stop for a second

and reflect on the information that we

we are digesting in in our daily lives

thank you absolutely I want to turn it

over here Nan do you have something to

say hi my name is thefan um I'm a

Palestinian who was born and raised in

Qatar and I went to University actually

in the UK and I remember when I first

met some of my friends actually who are

also from the UK they told me lefan

where are you from and I said Palestine

and they said oh Pakistan and I was like

you know we're not that two-dimensional

and they're like okay so um you guys

have roads and and and buildings and I'm

like um yeah you know we drive cars we

have highways and I open a open my phone

I showed them K National Library I'm

like this is just a library you know and

they kind of looked at me and they're

like we thought you were like

transporting things in on camels and so

for me it was just insane to see how

something like you know Aladdin or

something like the news was going to

make someone think that you know the

East is two dimensional you know as they

said earlier that it's super diverse and

it's just you know I think it's really

unfair for us to be kind of dismissed

that way and and that gets to so much of

the essence about what orientalism

really is right the West progresses the

West advances but the East is stagnant

doesn't evolve right and and doesn't

advance so we're going to pull up

another painting here on screen that I

want to ask HUD about Enlighten us a

little bit more about the orientalist

tropes that we see here in this paint

painting by Frederick Arthur Bridgeman

yeah Frederick Arthur Bridgeman in this

painting is trying to give a snapshot of

the Algerian life uh by painting ladies

sitting idolly okay in a very nice

Paradise like you know setting which is

unfortunately not the real life of the

Algerian Society it just the way the the

West were imagining them okay dreaming

of um how the you know how the East

looks like um and you know in such uh an

attempt by the artist okay or by The

Interpreter okay it gives um an au

authenticity to the you know to the um

Colonial Endeavor especially when we see

that you know they interpreta from a

point of view that the artist has

invaded you know those you know very

private spaces okay of women okay which

were uh prohibited Dua to be entered

especially by foreigners and by men in

particular um so such a scene um

although it looks very nice okay and

static those ladies can look like more

of accessories and an exotic Tabo uh it

deprives you know the Algerian people

okay from their Dynamic life from their

Rich culture okay which uh which is

hidden okay under such a scene just to

be clear an artist from the West like

this would would he have actually ever

had space like access to this kind of

space no and this is why we say okay by

invading you know the space okay he he

gives you know this kind of authority to

the Colonial Endeavor you know what I

mean like you know it's a message it's a

very you know like it's it's hiding a

very you know like political statement

in it and and many of these orientalist

artists from the West never even

necessarily traveled there right exactly

just their imagination you know based on

what they want to you know like what

they are thinking but also there's

something important okay about those as

I said okay this is Art okay and it's

very free you know giving a free space

okay to the people okay to interpret it

other interpretations also okay could

like under that kind of work of art um

for example okay some people say um have

you know like interpreted it as being

you know you know a western artist

talking to the Western okaya audience

about the West itself so such way of

depicting you know the woman in a

paradise like UK space um it's just you

know it's either okay because they are

depicting the status of the woman in

Europe and in the west okay at that time

okay being unable to correct their

Societies or also okay it might be like

you know the Nostalgia those artists

okay are looking okay for okay you know

before before the um before the uh

Industrial Revolution okay so they used

to think that the days before the

Industrial Revolution okay was uh a

paradise like okay so they are not

really you know happy with what's come

after the revolution so you know they

found in the orient okay a free space

you know like to express their feelings

through that Exotica unknown the unknown

I want I want to hear you guys opinions

on on Art like this do you think there's

any value in in this type of art uh

regardless of its historical context

should we engage with these type of

Works want to turn it to you

yeah um hi everyone my name is Arham

Khaled and I am from India but I've

lived in Qatar uh and India especially

is a region that has been such artworks

a lot of times right and a lot of these

artworks have been true to an extent and

but my only qu my only concern comes to

the fact that the only focus is on these

regions rather than like focusing on the

other regions of India because that then

implies the stereotypes that goes on

goes on the society and for me I feel

like we should engage in such art

because we can question them as an

Indian myself like I love questioning

the art I see about my country like is

it true to what extent is it true and

then for people outside India I want

them to question this as well like what

am I seeing is it true who has made this

for example as you mentioned like as

someone from the West making something

about the East who have never been there

I just feel like that's something we

need to question ourselves as well what

about you guys anyone agree disagree here

here

that's hi everyone I'm Lulu Alani I'm

junior interior design and I also agree

with her opinion I think we do we should

showcase this kind of art but at the

same time we should show the opposite an

art that shows a true point of inter

View and then we leave the audience to

question what is why these two art piece

are different so yeah I I think I agree

it's it's uh it has some kind of truth

it's not completely truth but it has

some kind of Truth in it like maybe

maybe the design in the uh in the

drawing is true maybe they did have this

kind of design maybe the cont is not

true but maybe some of it maybe they did

actually have these kind of dresses so

I'm not completely against showing these

uh this kind of art

interesting now are we giving the

average art consumer too much credit for

maybe being critical and asking these

questions uh you know which which we

would one would hope they would do um

hello everyone my name is Fus I'm

Colombian Palestinian lianes and I

definitely agree with what what was just

mentioned about how you know art is

sometimes not consumed critically like

we don't know if the person who's

viewing this uh piece of work has the

enough knowledge to question if it's a

reality over it's fictitious as you've

mentioned and uh again going back to

saying that if we need to engage and

portray them I think definitely we need

to discuss it in order to uh kind of

like increase this knowledge of like

what's real what's not and how these

orientalist tropes kind of engage and

increase the homy of the West on the

Orient even though I don't like to use

Orient because we're very diverse so on

this area that is deicated in such a

false manner so yeah thank you

Alam Alum everyone my name is intisar

I'm from Algeria specifically from the

city of algers seen picture is from

exactly I've seen these pictures and

many other pictures similar to these um

definitely there are many orientalis

paintings that uh represent Algerian

women however unfortunately they I see

most of them they try to sexualize

Algerian women show them in mysterious

way lazy way accessory way um how but

still on the other hand I see some of

them are harmful definitely they

misrepresent us but from the other hand

many of them they bring us like a

picture of what was Algerian women

living like what clothes they are

wearing like I can confirm that those

part of those clothes are part of our

culture they're called

K so all of those are part of the

history even like the jewy they are

wearing so uh they are part of reality

even the architecture the interior

design the City from there it's the

kasaba so it really relates to uh the

place I'm coming from I can confirm that

so we can say we can engage with the art

the paintings of the orientalists take

some values from them but definitely be

always aware and critical about them so

that's it thank you thank you thank you

guys for your thoughts on this painting

we're going to move on to our next topic

where I actually want to bring this

conversation forward 200 years modern

Western narratives often appear as

extensions of 19th century orientalist

cultural perspectives I want you to

watch another clip right now it's very

emotional for me because I see European

people with blue eyes and blonde hair

being killed children being killed every

day with Putin's missiles and his

helicopters and his Rockets these are

not refugees from Syria these are

refugees from uh neighboring Ukraine I

mean that quite frankly is part of it

these are um Christians they white now

with the Russians Marching In it's

changed uh the calculus entirely uh tens

of thousands of people have tried to uh

flee the city there will be many more

people are hiding out in bomb shelters

but this isn't a place with all due

respect um you know like Iraq or

Afghanistan that has seen conflict

raging for decades you know this is a

relatively civilized uh relatively

European I have to choose those words

carefully too uh City where you wouldn't

expect that or hope that it's going to

happen when you watch something like

that how do you see it as perpetuating

the orientalist stereotypes that we've

been talking about this

evening yeah I want to hear from

everyone here go ahead uh hi everyone my

name is Bayan I am a student at

Georgetown University in qar and I'm

majoring in international politics and I

think what we see here through these

reports is the process of othering so

creating this dichotomy between the East

and the west where we have the east as

Barbarian as people that are acclimated

to violence and uncivilized and we have

the West that are civilized people that

are not used to violence and so when an

invasion in Ukraine happens to Europeans

this is such a tragedy and it's such an

abnormal event however when there's an

invasion in Iraq well these are violent

barbaric people that are acclimated to

violence so it's not such a tragedy and

it's not so abnormal and this practice

of othering and this practice of

depicting Eastern people as barbaric has

been weaponized historically to justify

Colonial conquest and we see that this

is evidence that this has never

disappeared in these reports and today

with what's happening in Gaza you have

the Israeli defense minister stating

that Palestinians are human animals so

this perception of the West as uh

viewing the east as barbarians has never

disappeared it continues to be

weaponized today instead of colonialism

or maybe you could identify as a modern

form of colonialism but you can

definitely say that there's the

justification of war crimes currently

happening through depicting Arabs as

barbaric as human animals and I'd just

like to point out that I am Syrian so

the second report states that the

refugees of Ukraine are different

because they're Christian and they're

white which is quite ironic because 10%

of the Syrian population is actually

Christian arguably I'm white so the

reality is that doesn't make me more

deserving of sympathy but what that does

mean is that this journalist with her

journalism degree has no idea what Syria

is and has no idea what Syrian people

absolutely go ahead hello everyone my

name is ISA Alyssa and I am an

Indonesian artist living here in Qatar

um and I first learned about orientalism

or the topic of it here in freshman year

here in VCU Qatar and when I first um

heard about it I was just like okay I

definitely see it but we so much more

into orientalism in the Arab world and

uh and such and I completely agree and I

feel like it's much needed but then I

realized that like hold on like it's

something that I see it happen to my

people as well um and then when I looked

into it I realized that the Orient is

you know the other which is everyone

from the East the West E West Asian

South Asian you know it's a huge uh

chunk of people just like flatten into

one thing and um just to put things into

cont context uh again I I said I'm

Indonesian and Indonesia alone from one

distance to Indonesia to the other it's

the same distance from Qatar to China so

it's a very large country with hundreds

of different languages not dialects and

so that's one country as you know as an

example so regarding to what Bayan was

saying it's very like the term Orient or

this whole idea is very reductive and I

feel like that contributes to exactly

what we're seeing in the news and

everything thank you hi my name is abale

I'm an educator and I want to point out

that these media reports don't just

happen um as Fatima said the art has

actually paved the way for this to

happen because they're painting us as

the three bees as they say either a

bomber a billionaire or a belly dancer

so then when something happens oh yeah

yeah they're bombing the bombers it's

okay it's justified in the public eye

they don't have to put in so much effort

to convince the Americans that this is

this is okay it's already it's already

been done for 200 years so they've

already paved the way for that if I can

jump in Dina I think there are so many

current examples and I just want to

leave you with a couple of them that

have really exposed to me a not just an

intention here to other as as you

mentioned but the hypocrisy behind it um

Nancy Pelosi the former Speaker of the

House in the United States who has

refused to say anything about a ceasefire

ceasefire

was photographed wearing a bracelet made

from bullets that ukrainians used to

kill Russians with um you know we saw

video go viral over the past week of

Ahad Tamimi um and and there was a

fascinating backstory at some point

during the Ukrainian the early days of

the Ukraine Invasion ahad's video was

picked up and she was represented as a

young blonde Ukrainian girl fighting a

Russian soldier um and at the time

everyone was like wow how amazing what

Courage the moment they found out she

was Palestinian of course then that

ended Ahad is in detention today um you

know this hypocrisy couldn't be clearer

and I think one of the most

heartbreaking current examples is the

fact that you know the Gulf War um 1 was

essentially launched on on the back of

false testimony um of a young girl who

said that she saw Iraqi troops pull

babies out of incubators she lied to a

US House human rights caucus um and it

helped launch the war today we're

watching 37 now because three have died

Palestinian babies taken out of

incubators because their hospitals are

being shelled snipers are shooting

people in the hospitals they don't have

fuel they don't have electricity and

where is the outrage for those babies

for those incubator babies this is a

Sinister project and I think we have to

be very clear that we need to be

familiar with it I don't think we need

to censor it I think this is very

important for us to know and to watch

and to see how we're portrayed but we

need to start being more active in in

our response to it thank you and can I

come back on

you you wanted to

respond I mean lots of very interesting

points made but I think that there is

also a kind of stereotyping of the West

that is going on in much of this

discussion actually the West just as

quote unquote the East is full of

diverse cultures and heritages and

political ideologies and movements and

actually we have referenced Edward say's

orientalism which is taught across uh

Western universities and actually even

the time when he wrote the uh famous

works he was welcomed amongst the

European and Western intellectuals with

open arms his book was widely praised so

there were very strong strands within

Western thought that is incredibly

self-critical that has recognized uh

past wrongs and and present wrongs as

well and is much is very much engaged in

that dialogue of bringing in lots of

different perspectives and trying to

understand um the way in which uh

different groups in different countries

have been misinterpreted so I think that

that's a really important to point to

recognize the diversity of the West and

the ideologies within it without

essentializing it and stereotyping it

also so but I also think there's a human

Point here that the imagination is

always uh limited and so far as in order

to draw uh representations of other

things we are always going to get it

wrong we're always going to misinterpret

because the nature of the imagination

itself is is uh mysterious and Elusive

and so the idea that the only thing that

is valid or important or correct is

exact accurate um reflections of

particular countries or communities then

I don't really know what art would be

then because art in and of itself is

something that is always a a distortion

of of of what the actual reality is um

so I think that actually if we if we are

going down this line that the only uh

important point to take from the

artworks that we've seen in other things

is whether or not it's accurate then I

think we would miss the beauty of it

it's artistic value whether or not it's

depicting things in a exciting or or or

or skillful way so there are other

questions to ask not just whether or not

it's an exact accurate reflection you

bring up some important points and one

thing that I want to ask you all as we

move forward and on to other topics is

to what extent can we have this

conversation in a vacuum not constantly

bearing in mind the power dynamics of it

all that when we talk about the west and

the East you know when we talk about the

colonized and the colonizer do we always

need to be mindful of these of these

realities and of this context or can we

just appreciate you know the art for the

beauty that it that it has I I would say

Powers is very important here um and I

would invite you to imagine a world in

which Asian art depicted the West as per our

our

imagination I don't think they'd be as

tolerant of it um actually I don't think

they would have the generosity of of

spirit and questioning and criticism

that we have to display all the time the

problem of course is the power Dynamic

is that we don't have the power that

France has um we absolutely don't need

art to be realistic but we need to be

cognizant of of its effects yeah and if

I can just also say one thing I think

that it's a mistake to view culture as

innocent culture has power behind it

culture has governments behind it

culture has funding behind it and we can

enjoy it we should enjoy it but we have

to be critical of it that is an

excellent segue to where we want to go

to next because we're not just talking

about paintings and we're not just

talking about journalism we also want to

talk about pop culture here and in the

opening video we saw cardi B wearing a

CF and a headscarf and some people

called her out for cultural

appropriation so to you guys here on

stage I want to ask you is something

like that cultural appropriation is it

cultural appreciation when is it okay

hi everyone my name is Ana Maran and I'm

from Dominican Republic um I think that

when it comes to art

appreciation um it really depends on the

percept the perception the viewer and

the one that is being sort of like

appropriated but at the same time I

think that in order to be exact or

non-accurate in order to appreciate art

it must be represented by those who have

been sort of like forced into uh

suppressing their Arts I mean this

Western narrative doesn't depict

everyone else that's across the Atlantic

it's not just the United States you know

there's the Americas there are many

different countries where are many

different colors and we're very diverse

and our art is being suppressed by this

idea that you know the culture only

exists within North America and so when

that happens you know we try to depict

what we know or what we can see that has

been preserved exactly um and that's

much of the art and the culture in the

East uh more than just appropriating I

think that we're just trying to show

that there is more out there rather than

what we know um and you know a little

bit of of relation to the conversation

earlier as well is that you know

whenever you depict art or whenever you

depict something from the West uh

whenever the West uses orientalism to

point uh the east as barbaric um they're

using this sort of idea of you against

me so this is also problematic that if

if you don't agree with what we say

about what you don't know then you're

against what we do know and it makes me

question them and we should thank you we

haven't heard from you Salam my name is

Hiba uh I am a digital Humanity student at

hbku uh I do think that this example

particularly of cardi B is relevant

because she's a black woman she is from

the global South so is it the case that

when it's someone from the from the

global South someone who is Arab someone

who is black do they get like a free

ticket like a green pass to represent

and talk about the culture I don't think

so cuz we see a lot of people who are

from the global South when they do get

to power they have some of the most

anti-immigration policies they have some

of the most racist policies and

statements so it's it's it's the

question of like appropriation versus um

representation is also tied with like

authenticity and who is an Insider and

who is an outsider and when you

determine some someone as an Insider or

someone as an authentic person authentic

representation you actually grant them

power so if they're already someone in

power like a pop star um you got to be

careful about granting them even more

power and say oh they're authentic that

they are like just simply just because

they are from this region um so I think

it it really ties well with the issue of

power dynamics um it it doesn't relate

directly to geographical location to

color to uh race it it it ties with how

much power does this have person have

how much they are trying to be honest

how much are they questioning things so

I think that's the the key here in IA

what do you think where do we draw the

line between cultural appropriation and

cultural appreciation um so I I don't

really think there is a line and and I

don't think card is from the global

South I think that she is American

through and through and I think that she

would class herself fundamentally as

American and I think I I think intention

matters I think that that's a really

really important way that we have to

recognize that was her intention in

depicting that to dehumanize to degrade

of course not it was an artistic

expression I think there's a real danger

in seeing cultures as these fixed

distinct uh things that have these rigid

borders that other people cannot um

interact with and exchange things

actually when we uh see different

cultures you often find upon deeper

investigation that the lines are

actually quite blur

and there's been many ways in which the

East socalled has um uh influenced

Western thought and Western discourse

substantially and vice versa and for

example you know I uh recently came back

from Japan and um there is a huge

American culture of Japanese people are

wearing uh Elvis inspired clothes also

inspired by African-American hip-hop

culture and I think that that is a

glorious example of human creativ ity

and human expression uh Reinventing

things and they don't need permission

from African-American people they don't

need permission from uh supporters of

Elvis um in America that that is the the

free flowing nature of human beings and

I think that when we police uh

Intercultural exchange and I think what

we're actually doing is retreating

further into our silos and what it will

ultimately need is less understanding of

different communities and different

cultures because we will not have that

free flowing way to

interact I want

to I want to throw it to you for a short

response if you have one um yeah I think

we should be allowed to to investigate

other cultures and and experiment with

other cultures I I don't disagree with

um enia at all I think that the issue um

is more so depiction not so much

curiosity or investigation uh you know I

loved your point about power I think you

do have to investigate how much power a

person has um when we're looking at this

but you know I don't think you can also

police curiosity and I certainly don't

like the idea that you can't be curious

about other cultures yeah we coexist

together so people are living together

okay and especially nowadays okay with

all of this kind of easy like

communication between the cultures okay

so it's there's no harm okay since like

you know from the beginning of the

history K people are taking from each

other what's for their own benefit and

what what helps in developing their you

know own culture so this is something

like you know this is the very natural

okay thing and it's something okay that

we should also okay be happy that if

someone is taking from other culture

that means okay this is something good

okay that people can W feel proud of it

give it or give them you know some kind

of power whatever so this is something

very I think positive yeah thank you so

orientalist tropes aren't exclusive to

to the Middle East the West often

willingly or unwillingly dehumanizes

Asian identities in pop culture as well

let's take a look at this clip that

we've edited for

brevity techno orientalism differs a bit

from Edward s's definition of

orientalism instead of seeing Asia as

just backwards and un civilized techno

orientalism represents Asia as so

technologically advanced that it has no

Humanity you would have had to edit it

for brevity because we'd be here all

night otherwise um yeah with that said

please do respond do respond to that and

to the thoughts on the portrayal of

Asian you know cultures in the west as

so technologically advanced and you know

dehumanizing yeah you know ASAT Shakur

said nobody in in the world nobody in

history has ever gotten their freedom I

would add dignity by appealing to the

moral sense of their

occupiers um I think we have to stop

ascribing morality to States states do

not have morality um they have as much

morality as the furniture on the stage

um and we have to start seeing them as

that as such these depictions that we

see on the TV or you know on television

they're not accidental they're

purposeful and they are always connected

to politics so you know whether we're

talking about East Asians in the sense

of the Japanese during the World War or

the Chinese today these are people who

represent a significant existential

threat to Western hegemony so it it

shouldn't be surprising that they're

going to be portrayed as cold or robotic

in the same way that Muslims are

portrayed as violent or submissive um

you know you have to look at culture

closely with politics I think and we

have to remember as well when we're

looking at media whether that's film or

the news that these are not innocent

institutions they are ideological

institutions you know the clip we saw

earlier um where that guy said with all

due respect and then proceeded to be

really disrespectful um that's the you

know that's the BBC you know we we

weren't watching some random chall like

channel from a village somewhere these are

are

national uh Outlets they have a

responsibility and when they fail that

responsibility I think we have to ask

ourselves why you know yeah Andia what

do you think when we're talking about

stereotypes here are stereotypes by

definition always inherently negative

well on the point about techno

orientalism I think that that that's

quite an interesting one because you

know having spent some time in in in

Asia and obviously being someone that

was born and raised in the west actually

I would say there's a lot of admiration

for the technological advancements that

many countries in um East Asia has made

whether that's uh South Korea uh Japan

and so on and so forth so and also so

you know cyber Punk um from Japan has

had a huge influence on uh video gaming

culture um within Western society as

well so again I think there's always the

there are these nuances and complexities

that I think orientalism as a concept

often just uh removes and often

reinforces this easts versus West idea

so for example actually I've seen a a

huge change in the way uh the far Reese

has been been depicted uh over the last

few decades due to the fact that they

have economically Advanced substantially

so growing up um I can admit that there

were these depictions of uh uh the far

EAS as underdeveloped and uh and all

sorts of NE negative stereotyping but

the the context has transformed to such

an extent where uh many of these voices

and are making themselves heard and are

and are completely shaping the way that

they are depicted so I think that we

have to be careful not to remove the

agency um from uh many people themselves

that actually push back that shape

Western thought as well and actually

redefine their own stories and that that

relationship is constantly going and

ongoing if I can just jump in here I

think it's an important point that inia

has raised um and I wrote about this

it's not so much that the West has

embraced Asian culture it's that the

rest of the world World embraced Asian

culture and the West is actually coming

in at the tail end of this so I I grew

up in Syria I remember watching Japanese

soap operas on television in the 1980s

you know that's when we were looking at

Asia and that's when we were studying

Asia and learning from Asia um you know

when was squid games on Netflix like two

years ago uh and we see the same with

South American culture you know you have

um whether it's telen noas or you have

music in Asia in the global South

decades before it hits um the west and

so I think we also have to look at the

way in which the world is changing

culture is being set it's being made and

it's being consumed by non-western

people and it's going to dictate how

culture changes and how it looks in the

future thank you okay so now I want to

explore the evolving role of museums in

presenting historical artworks that some

find offensive there's an ongoing

movement to decolonize museums revise

artwork descriptions and in some cases

remove pieces altogether but not

everyone is open to the idea let's watch

this interview the telegraph conducted

with the deputy uh with the director of

the national Army museum in London so

you don't feel any pressure whatsoever

to put a plaque on saying well you know

viewers or people here must remember

that the British Empire committed

terrible sins we invaded other countries

we you know were involved in slavery

obviously not this period but but before

um you know this was a an Enterprise to

dominate and exploit other peoples I

mean here here we in the gallery on the

first world war and we we joined you

know we joined with allies to fight the

Germans because they invaded neutral

Belgium and as I said you know millions

of of soldiers from across the world

volunteered to help us in that fight um

and you'll see images around here of

Indian soldiers and and others um who

were part of that so no there's no

there's no need to to do to do anything

other than to tell this story and it's

important that people understand this

story Ania you're you're very plugged

into the art scene as we mentioned in

the introduction tell me about your

thoughts about this decolonized the Arts

Movement do you support it so I I I have

my concerns about it so undoubtedly I

think um I welcome the idea that we

should uh make us more aware of stories

that were historically marginalized

perspectives and voices um that were not

included in how we understand particular

historic IC events uh particular

literature particular artistic forms and

so on but I think that there's a danger

in really uh blurring what we mean by

decolonization to me I think

decolonization is the kind of formal

political process of removing a colonial

power I think there's a very different

thing when we talk about decolonization

when it comes to Art when it comes to

ideas as I've alluded to in previous um

elements of this discussion

actually history is much more

complicated than just seeing it through

a binary racial lens or seeing it

through an East versus West lens and

actually often times uh marginalized and

Colonial voices use the ideas of the

Enlightenment use lots of Western ideas

as a way to hold a mirror to the West

against their uh ability to live up to

their own ideals and so when we're

talking about uh decolonization what

what ideas are we actually removing is

it ideas of a you know parliamentary

democracy um is it ideas of uh so many

things that the West has championed um

in many ways as well so I do think that

whilst we should open the uh perspective

to lots of different voices I think that

there is a danger in um essentially

again reinforcing a division which sees

certain ideas as only western or certain

depictions as only Western and

everything else is uh as a victim or

everything else as Eastern and again

that's I don't think history is as as

that what do you think F what what

should we be decolonizing when we talk

about decolonizing the Arts I think this

is such a fascinating time to have this

conversation because we've seen protests

um banned in uh American universities

we've seen people being fired from their

jobs being censored for Simply Having

the completely uncontroversial opinion

um that there should be a ceasefire that

Israel should be stopped

um from ping Gaza at this moment um

we've seen parliaments um whether we're

talking about the Congress or the the

parliament in the UK whose populations

are overwhelmingly in support of a

ceasefire refuse to even debate the

topic so I think the idea of Western

values is really broken at the moment

and I think what all of us have noticed

is that there is a western value for the

west and then there is another value for

the rest of us um um but when we talk

about decolonizing I think we have to

decolonize I think we have to decolonize

everything that means museums that means

our libraries that means our thinking

and what it means really is not that

anything should be destroyed or anything

should be removed or anything should be

censored but that we have to start

looking at things correctly we have to

start using the right names for things

let's not forget that

museums um their Genesis is part of the

colonial Pro project Colonial powers

used museums in the same way they used

um census or

education to categorize to order um

their version of History to decide what

would be included and what would be

excluded of course we should have

museums um but we should remember where

museums come from and what purpose they

served I don't think it's a question of

black or white certainly nothing in the

world is Black or White but certain

things are true colonialism is theft I I

I mean it's theft of land it's theft of

resources it's theft of Heritage it's

theft and whatever positive we want to

take from colonialism I think we should

remember um was not was not done for the

natives you know the British built

railroads not for us it wasn't a gift it

was for them because they were using

them so there are certain things we we

have to look at with a wide lens um and

I think for too long our conversations

have been dictated by the powerful who

set The Narrative and it's time to

question all those things and and and I

don't think that should be seen as

threatening it should be welcomed in the

spirit of debate just as we're having

here tonight I I see you on a respond

well I think one of the things that I am

concerned about is almost a reverse form of

eurocentrism but we see the West as this

uh unique

uh all powerful being in the world that

is essentially responsible for

everything and has behaved in a way that

is historically so unique so as to uh

make it particularly distinct I mean

even when we talk about colonialism and

when we talk about Empire the British

Empire the French Empire are not the

first empires in the world you know

whether that's the Ottoman Empire or the

Benin Empire and many of those Empires

behaved in a wide range of ways that

today we we would disagree with and some

that we would agree with um and we don't

view many of those empires in the same

way that we view the west and I don't

think we engage critically with the

practices and behaviors and the way in

which languages were erased uh certain

ideas became dominant and certain ideas

became marginalized and I think when we

uh hold the West uh to this uh

overwhelming unique uh omniscent force

and I think that we actually end up

reinforcing uh senses of superiority

amongst Western Elites um as responsible

for all things and and Superior and so I

think as I said earlier I think there is

a danger as uh black and brown Arab

people um and I include myself in that

of course as taking away our own power

taking away our own influence in the way

in which we have shaped the world as

people as well and making all the power

in the white West and I think that only

serves to reinforce senses of superior I

ority and

inferiority I'm I I'm going to have to

say I'm really glad you mentioned the

Ottomans um I think there is a massive

difference between Empire of course all

Empire is is in is at its core

interested in power and expansion but

the Ottomans didn't settle their

territories um the Ottomans the mols

these are people that allowed religious

freedom I don't think they can be

compared at all with the French in

Algeria or in Morocco um who committed

not just vast amounts of theft um but

violence violence to a degree that these

places have never recovered from you

know we're not sitting here having this

conversation in

Turkish we're having it in English you

know that is a result of the British

Empire what is the number 18 countries

in the world were not invaded by the

British 11 11 sorry 11 how many

countries were invaded by the Turks or

by the Arabs I mean the the SC there's

no parity really here not that I'm

excusing Empire in any way but there is

a difference and there is particularly a

difference in terms of exploitation and

violence that was practiced and

continues to be practiced by the West we

have heard a lot of

strong and popular points being made and

I want to give a chance to our for our

students to respond and maybe expound on

something that you

heard we heard from you alikum I'm Iman

is um I work here in Foundation uh

graduated from George shown University

um in Q and with regards to the

conversation about orientalism for one

thing that constantly comes to mind is

this idea of the false dichotomy between

the East and the West um it's I think

it's become synonymous with the powerful

and the powerless I'm sudanes but I was

raised in Southeast Asia I come from

this part of the world where danger is

constantly lurking we're used to it it's

as if we have have a higher a higher

pain tolerance as people who come from

the global South but that's ultimately not correct I think that's never been

not correct I think that's never been proven scientifically um but you can

proven scientifically um but you can still say that the conversations that

still say that the conversations that are being had even when it comes to Art

are being had even when it comes to Art you can say that it's just a piece of

you can say that it's just a piece of art on the wall let me just enjoy what

art on the wall let me just enjoy what it is but what has it allowed you to do

it is but what has it allowed you to do it's allowed you to perceive someone now

it's allowed you to perceive someone now as the other because they're on the

as the other because they're on the other side they cannot defend themselves

other side they cannot defend themselves and you've allowed them to be seen as

and you've allowed them to be seen as weaker or as lazier or whatever it is

weaker or as lazier or whatever it is hypersexualized and that becomes the

hypersexualized and that becomes the norm so decolonization that process

norm so decolonization that process ensures that we we unlearn for the sake

ensures that we we unlearn for the sake of liberating the oppressed it's not for

of liberating the oppressed it's not for the sake of the oppressor they can join

the sake of the oppressor they can join the conversation if they wish to but you

the conversation if they wish to but you ultimately have to allow the liberation

ultimately have to allow the liberation of the oppressed so that they understand

of the oppressed so that they understand that their narratives are powerful and

that their narratives are powerful and that they as people their lives are Valu

that they as people their lives are Valu valuable as well so that when news

valuable as well so that when news Pieces come like this they know that I

Pieces come like this they know that I can respond I have the power to respond

can respond I have the power to respond I can be angry but but I will also

I can be angry but but I will also respond academically and literate thank

respond academically and literate thank you do

you um I would like to add on the conversation again I feel like it's very

conversation again I feel like it's very important to bring accountability to

important to bring accountability to this debate or this conversation given

this debate or this conversation given that the only thing that I feel like we

that the only thing that I feel like we want is accountability from the West to

want is accountability from the West to say that yes they did US harm they

say that yes they did US harm they represent us wrong and because of these

represent us wrong and because of these representation the homany of orientalism

representation the homany of orientalism is expanding even in us it's so

is expanding even in us it's so integrated in our Societies in our

integrated in our Societies in our cultures that we start to portray

cultures that we start to portray ourself in their lens so for example

ourself in their lens so for example when I go to Colombia and Latin America

when I go to Colombia and Latin America or I'm speaking to someone who's

or I'm speaking to someone who's Colombian they don't consider me

Colombian they don't consider me Colombian just because I wear that hijab

Colombian just because I wear that hijab and I look from the East and they claim

and I look from the East and they claim that I'm not a real Colombian and that I

that I'm not a real Colombian and that I should go back to wherever I came from

should go back to wherever I came from because I'm Muslim and again there's

because I'm Muslim and again there's these um misconceptions that are brought

these um misconceptions that are brought because of orientalism that they need to

because of orientalism that they need to take accountability for these things and

take accountability for these things and we are having this conversation to

we are having this conversation to further disseminate that and it's very

further disseminate that and it's very important to point that if they're not

important to point that if they're not going to take responsibility for for

going to take responsibility for for what they've done we can't really move

what they've done we can't really move forward with this conversation because

forward with this conversation because it feels like we're just talking to a

it feels like we're just talking to a wall and there's no you know they're not

wall and there's no you know they're not joining the debate like they're free to

joining the debate like they're free to join the debate they're free to talk to

join the debate they're free to talk to us but they're not so it just feels like

us but they're not so it just feels like you're just talking to into a void so

you're just talking to into a void so yeah thanks thank you thank you I want

yeah thanks thank you thank you I want to well we been hear from you I want to

to well we been hear from you I want to give you a chance to respond let's

give you a chance to respond let's go um hello everyone my name is alhad

go um hello everyone my name is alhad I'm a student in hbku and I want to

I'm a student in hbku and I want to touch on the point you just raised and

touch on the point you just raised and my experience actually and how this goes

my experience actually and how this goes beyond even the people in the East and

beyond even the people in the East and the west and it even affects people back

the west and it even affects people back in Africa right so I am from Ghana and I

in Africa right so I am from Ghana and I remember the year I came to katar the

remember the year I came to katar the year I got admissions here to come

year I got admissions here to come steady I had admissions in um the United

steady I had admissions in um the United States in the UK as well so I sat my

States in the UK as well so I sat my friends down and told them that I was

friends down and told them that I was going to leave Ghana and I'm moving to

going to leave Ghana and I'm moving to Qatar but I'm not going to the US and

Qatar but I'm not going to the US and the UK and if you see the look on their

the UK and if you see the look on their faces like bro what is that why are you

faces like bro what is that why are you going to cut her Haven you heard what's

going to cut her Haven you heard what's going on there and I mean it was you

going on there and I mean it was you know the time during the World Cup when

know the time during the World Cup when all the media houses were just attack

all the media houses were just attack and cutar like that so you could tell

and cutar like that so you could tell that this

that this has they they've succeeded in making

has they they've succeeded in making sure that even the people that are far

sure that even the people that are far away are affected and see the eess or

away are affected and see the eess or the orience as barbaric or you know as

the orience as barbaric or you know as inferior okay so um in terms of

inferior okay so um in terms of decolonization growing up again in Ghana

decolonization growing up again in Ghana I read a lot of books about um how our

I read a lot of books about um how our forefathers were colonized and these

forefathers were colonized and these books are still in schools right do I

books are still in schools right do I want them taken out do I want them to B

want them taken out do I want them to B all the books or if I become president

all the books or if I become president am I going to order them to take all

am I going to order them to take all these books from the classroom no it is

these books from the classroom no it is part of our history this is part of who

part of our history this is part of who we are so I would want my children my

we are so I would want my children my great grandchildren to learn about where

great grandchildren to learn about where we come from and how our forefathers had

we come from and how our forefathers had to go through so much to make sure that

to go through so much to make sure that we are where we are today so yeah that's

we are where we are today so yeah that's what I think thank

you let's turn our discussion to how non-western cultures can maintain their

non-western cultures can maintain their identity amid Western influences like

identity amid Western influences like orientalism to find an answer we

orientalism to find an answer we interviewed Dr na bin Nahar who I'm told

interviewed Dr na bin Nahar who I'm told is in the audience thank you very oh

is in the audience thank you very oh there you are thank you for joining us

there you are thank you for joining us welcome so to find an answer we

welcome so to find an answer we interview Dr naif bin Nahar who is the

interview Dr naif bin Nahar who is the director of the IB khun Center for

director of the IB khun Center for social and human Sciences at qar

social and human Sciences at qar University let's

thank you Fatima we just heard Dr bahar's insights on assimilating

bahar's insights on assimilating knowledge and ideas from other cultures

knowledge and ideas from other cultures only when they're compatible with one's

only when they're compatible with one's own culture so let me ask you how can

own culture so let me ask you how can non-western societies selectively adopt

non-western societies selectively adopt uh Western knowledge in a way that

uh Western knowledge in a way that aligns with their own cultural

aligns with their own cultural identities well I think I think by doing

identities well I think I think by doing exactly what we've been talking about by

exactly what we've been talking about by decolonizing by expanding one's gaze you

decolonizing by expanding one's gaze you know history is is history and the

know history is is history and the timeline is vast and I think we can make

timeline is vast and I think we can make certain choices to include more to widen

certain choices to include more to widen our scope to include a larger range and

our scope to include a larger range and and I think it's very important to use

and I think it's very important to use the correct names for things that's part

the correct names for things that's part of how we maintain our identity you know

of how we maintain our identity you know I I was educated in American and English

I I was educated in American and English schools um and I was an adult before I

schools um and I was an adult before I realized that certain things that were

realized that certain things that were taught to me were given the wrong names

taught to me were given the wrong names you know what well for example in 1857

you know what well for example in 1857 when Indian troops rose up against the

when Indian troops rose up against the East India Company it's described as the

East India Company it's described as the Mutiny but it's it's not a mutiny it's

Mutiny but it's it's not a mutiny it's the first Indian Freedom struggle you

the first Indian Freedom struggle you know when I was in Middle School uh we

know when I was in Middle School uh we were taught about European Kings and

were taught about European Kings and Queens sending people off and that was

Queens sending people off and that was called the Age of Exploration it's not

called the Age of Exploration it's not exploration

exploration it's colonialism and you know this

it's colonialism and you know this extends outside of schools you know what

extends outside of schools you know what is a humanitarian pause it's a

is a humanitarian pause it's a completely meaningless set of words

completely meaningless set of words we've joined together it's called

we've joined together it's called ceasefire so we we have to start using

ceasefire so we we have to start using the correct words and I think we also

the correct words and I think we also have to start adapting the models that

have to start adapting the models that we've inherited I think we can safely

we've inherited I think we can safely say those models are broken at this

say those models are broken at this point and that doesn't mean we discard

point and that doesn't mean we discard them it just means we expand them and we

them it just means we expand them and we change them we innovate them and I

change them we innovate them and I certainly think we have enough work to

certainly think we have enough work to do on that front speaking of a lot of

do on that front speaking of a lot of work to

work to do lucil museum has acquired the world's

do lucil museum has acquired the world's largest collection of orientalist art

largest collection of orientalist art and you guys have the daunting task of

and you guys have the daunting task of recontextualizing it how are you doing

recontextualizing it how are you doing that as you've seen today there were a

that as you've seen today there were a lot of ways looking into those like you

lot of ways looking into those like you know works of art the example okay of

know works of art the example okay of gum for example okay and all of the

gum for example okay and all of the research was done okay in order to

research was done okay in order to understand what was the aspirations of

understand what was the aspirations of the of the Artist Artist okay no we have

the of the Artist Artist okay no we have a proverb says okay the meaning of the

a proverb says okay the meaning of the poem okay lies in the heart of the poet

poem okay lies in the heart of the poet so all of the other interpretations okay

so all of the other interpretations okay were done by people with agendas okay

were done by people with agendas okay who have power okay just okay using

who have power okay just okay using those works of art okay as tool okay to

those works of art okay as tool okay to justify what they want um this is why

justify what they want um this is why okay our mission now as a museum is to

okay our mission now as a museum is to bring those historical okay

bring those historical okay extraordinary works okay and put them

extraordinary works okay and put them okay into a more modern contemporary

okay into a more modern contemporary context okay see how do they affect okay

context okay see how do they affect okay us

us today um um so we we are not just a

today um um so we we are not just a museum okay with all of these Master

museum okay with all of these Master pieces of works okay but rather we're a

pieces of works okay but rather we're a platform just as what what what we're

platform just as what what what we're doing today bringing all these different

doing today bringing all these different perspectives okay people from different

perspectives okay people from different backgrounds okay experts students have

backgrounds okay experts students have their say Okay um um and debate and

their say Okay um um and debate and discuss uh all of these works of Uka um

discuss uh all of these works of Uka um and see how do they reflect on us our

and see how do they reflect on us our identities and representations today and

identities and representations today and this this collection will be um on

this this collection will be um on display in 2030 is that correct we hope

display in 2030 is that correct we hope so inshallah okay so um we will see in

so inshallah okay so um we will see in in a few years from now okay with the

in a few years from now okay with the collection let's let's do some

collection let's let's do some brainstorming then because you know they

brainstorming then because you know they have this they've acquired all this

have this they've acquired all this orientalist art and you know hopefully

orientalist art and you know hopefully by 2030 it'll be on display I want to

by 2030 it'll be on display I want to ask you guys for your thoughts is there

ask you guys for your thoughts is there an instance where art should not be

an instance where art should not be displayed at all if anyone believes that

displayed at all if anyone believes that please raise your hand and tell me why

please raise your hand and tell me why but if not I just want to ask you for

but if not I just want to ask you for your thoughts on how some creative ways

your thoughts on how some creative ways that museums can break stereotypes and

that museums can break stereotypes and promote a more nuanced view of this

art hi hello everybody my name is Mami I am a Palestinian born in doar my opinion

am a Palestinian born in doar my opinion on ruralism and how everyone spoken

on ruralism and how everyone spoken about it and shared their their

about it and shared their their experiences and through the history and

experiences and through the history and culture truly

culture truly has has affected as an identity of who I

has has affected as an identity of who I am what what is my culture how can I

am what what is my culture how can I what can I be what so on so forth am I

what can I be what so on so forth am I fitted into this Society am I like am I

fitted into this Society am I like am I like presented or am I really part of

like presented or am I really part of who I am and to be honest I feel that

who I am and to be honest I feel that what can museums do I'm a huge believer

what can museums do I'm a huge believer into communities and when we are given

into communities and when we are given communities to meet one another share

communities to meet one another share with one another we get to learn from

with one another we get to learn from one another and teach each other

one another and teach each other especially the right words with one

especially the right words with one another we can tell them we can

another we can tell them we can experience and share who we are and what

experience and share who we are and what are we not to

are we not to mention this helps to break the idea of

mention this helps to break the idea of oralism what has the world really shown

oralism what has the world really shown or get implemented in us that we are a

or get implemented in us that we are a specific image when we are actually not

specific image when we are actually not we are more than that and especially

we are more than that and especially here in Qatar what I love is how they

here in Qatar what I love is how they are proud to show their culture you

are proud to show their culture you don't just see it within the individuals

don't just see it within the individuals but you also see it within their

but you also see it within their surroundings how is how Kara is and so

surroundings how is how Kara is and so when we engage in events and bring on

when we engage in events and bring on communities especially from the youth as

communities especially from the youth as we do not want to be repeating mistakes

we do not want to be repeating mistakes from to to the younger Generations as I

from to to the younger Generations as I believe that starting young is always

believe that starting young is always the best way to implement the right

the best way to implement the right values and morals and to place identity

values and morals and to place identity in is by engaging with those and by

in is by engaging with those and by sharing exper experiencing and

sharing exper experiencing and implementing the right words cultures

implementing the right words cultures and showcase who we really are and thank

and showcase who we really are and thank you thank you anyone who can I heard I

you thank you anyone who can I heard I think we've heard from you and I want I

think we've heard from you and I want I want you all to jump in okay so and try

want you all to jump in okay so and try to get as many answers as possible uh

to get as many answers as possible uh well uh for me museums are much more

well uh for me museums are much more than to exhibit the history of a

than to exhibit the history of a country uh basically museums are what

country uh basically museums are what educates and shapes the future

educates and shapes the future generation because whatever we exhibit

generation because whatever we exhibit inside the museum is what impacts us

inside the museum is what impacts us morally spiritually therefore I believe

morally spiritually therefore I believe that these orientalised Arts which are

that these orientalised Arts which are close to stereotypes should not be

close to stereotypes should not be exitted inside the uh museums because we

exitted inside the uh museums because we see I as an Eastern generation when I go

see I as an Eastern generation when I go to the west and I see that the Western

to the west and I see that the Western ways actually presenting my culture and

ways actually presenting my culture and I see that as wrong and I was like I'll

I see that as wrong and I was like I'll I'll go and I will I will say that hold

I'll go and I will I will say that hold on that is not how I how Afghanistan is

on that is not how I how Afghanistan is now but while behind the scene things

now but while behind the scene things are different and on the scene they're

are different and on the scene they're presenting my country maybe as a

presenting my country maybe as a backward it as electorate people people

backward it as electorate people people with no knowledge so that is not how you

with no knowledge so that is not how you know or or analistic I can say artwork

know or or analistic I can say artwork so therefore I believe that museums are

so therefore I believe that museums are what shapes the future generation if we

what shapes the future generation if we don't care about the orientalis Arts

don't care about the orientalis Arts which are close to stereotypes this will

which are close to stereotypes this will def definitely creates an anger inside

def definitely creates an anger inside every single Generations so that is what

every single Generations so that is what it basically creates a lot of problem

it basically creates a lot of problem you know for the future generation and

you know for the future generation and this this will be a headache for the

this this will be a headache for the society itself so to be clear you don't

society itself so to be clear you don't want these paintings on those walls

want these paintings on those walls exactly who agrees who

exactly who agrees who disagrees you agree you disagree let's

disagrees you agree you disagree let's hear

hear why I think um art is a form of

why I think um art is a form of expression and with expression comes

expression and with expression comes context comes history so if I see a

context comes history so if I see a painting that is very wrongly depicting

painting that is very wrongly depicting my culture and then I see the artist and

my culture and then I see the artist and who he is or who she is and I understand

who he is or who she is and I understand where they're from I'll start to say

where they're from I'll start to say okay maybe this country has a history of

okay maybe this country has a history of colonizing other other other states

colonizing other other other states maybe I should look into this so I think

maybe I should look into this so I think that the the first step to question

that the the first step to question anything is to First be exposed to it so

anything is to First be exposed to it so I feel like definitely I agree um with

I feel like definitely I agree um with decolonizing the art maybe not in terms

decolonizing the art maybe not in terms of removing it I think that in the

of removing it I think that in the museum you can do some very creative

museum you can do some very creative things like maybe put some questions

things like maybe put some questions next to uh a pain in put the context of

next to uh a pain in put the context of you know the time that it was made uh

you know the time that it was made uh put some information about the artist

put some information about the artist and let people maybe connect the dots

and let people maybe connect the dots but I think the most important thing is

but I think the most important thing is that our attention spans are actually

that our attention spans are actually reducing with with globalization and

reducing with with globalization and social media so I feel like also putting

social media so I feel like also putting these things might be challenging so

these things might be challenging so it's actually not just something inside

it's actually not just something inside the museum but outside now we find so

the museum but outside now we find so many creative content on social media

many creative content on social media about loads of things so why can't

about loads of things so why can't museums do the same they should be able

museums do the same they should be able to deconstruct the paintings that

to deconstruct the paintings that they're showing us in the museum not

they're showing us in the museum not only inside the Realms of that museum

only inside the Realms of that museum but also outside of it like let people

but also outside of it like let people know not just within the Realms of where

know not just within the Realms of where art is supposed to be exhibited because

art is supposed to be exhibited because art is everywhere whether you go to the

art is everywhere whether you go to the museum or you don't you're going to see

museum or you don't you're going to see it so you need to decolonize it in and

it so you need to decolonize it in and outside one more student who's itching

outside one more student who's itching to Vernick I feel like you

to Vernick I feel like you are I think that you mentioned the point

are I think that you mentioned the point you mentioned in the beginning that

you mentioned in the beginning that we're giving the audience too much

we're giving the audience too much credit people look at museums as that's

credit people look at museums as that's the truth so I think missud has a a

the truth so I think missud has a a great

great responsibility because she's going to

responsibility because she's going to have to pick things this Museum isn't

have to pick things this Museum isn't qar so they're going to trust the source

qar so they're going to trust the source if qar um like put this art it means it

if qar um like put this art it means it believes in it so we can't trust all the

believes in it so we can't trust all the audience to go to go back home and

audience to go to go back home and research and look up the uh the painting

research and look up the uh the painting they they can do their research on other

they they can do their research on other stuff but if we're going to present it

stuff but if we're going to present it we can we have to be proud of it at

we can we have to be proud of it at least and this is why you know when I

least and this is why you know when I said okay now our Museum would be

said okay now our Museum would be something different from the Museum so

something different from the Museum so it's not just a place where we host all

it's not just a place where we host all of these works of art okay with their

of these works of art okay with their like you know traditional kind of

like you know traditional kind of reading or interpretation but if you

reading or interpretation but if you look at those kind of you know works of

look at those kind of you know works of Arts you will be surprised with the

Arts you will be surprised with the diversity of themes okay which it covers

diversity of themes okay which it covers okay about the exchange between cultures

okay about the exchange between cultures not only East and West it goes beyond

not only East and West it goes beyond Dua the East and West Dua idea so there

Dua the East and West Dua idea so there is a lot of things that you can Del you

is a lot of things that you can Del you know like very go deep in a TOA and

know like very go deep in a TOA and explore other you know

explore other you know other areas and other you know like

other areas and other you know like other perspectives and this is okay the

other perspectives and this is okay the challenge okay now how we can we have

challenge okay now how we can we have okay look at those works of art and just

okay look at those works of art and just you know reinterpret them okay and re

you know reinterpret them okay and re understand them okay from a different

understand them okay from a different perspective okay that that's more

perspective okay that that's more productive rather than destructive

productive rather than destructive between the different cultures who

between the different cultures who agrees with khud I'm going to give one

agrees with khud I'm going to give one student another opportunity to speak hi

student another opportunity to speak hi um I'm Al I'm a recent graduate of

um I'm Al I'm a recent graduate of Georgetown I agree with missud because I

Georgetown I agree with missud because I feel like what's important that it's

feel like what's important that it's place inq is the ownership it's not like

place inq is the ownership it's not like it's in France or the it's in Britain

it's in France or the it's in Britain it's where like you're depicting the

it's where like you're depicting the East it's more the East is showing uh to

East it's more the East is showing uh to the East and I feel like uh this is a

the East and I feel like uh this is a great opportunity to uh fill in the

great opportunity to uh fill in the illiteracy in orientalism it's such a

illiteracy in orientalism it's such a even the word it's a mouthful so I find

even the word it's a mouthful so I find like we need to gather or be in the

like we need to gather or be in the phase of like collecting all the

phase of like collecting all the information like we need to simplify it

information like we need to simplify it especially like for children what is

especially like for children what is orientalism because when 8-year-old me

orientalism because when 8-year-old me would have appreciated because the type

would have appreciated because the type of bullying I went where I was uh get

of bullying I went where I was uh get told like I'm a terrorist or I'm usam

told like I'm a terrorist or I'm usam bin lattin's daughter it wasn't like the

bin lattin's daughter it wasn't like the regular type of bullying it is has uh

regular type of bullying it is has uh islamophobic and orientalist uh tropes

islamophobic and orientalist uh tropes and I feel like just the suggestion on

and I feel like just the suggestion on the lucil museum is to have a specific

the lucil museum is to have a specific uh section for children in trying to uh

uh section for children in trying to uh simplify what orientalism is and how

simplify what orientalism is and how um dangerous uh the impact is because if

um dangerous uh the impact is because if like I learned it academically at 19

like I learned it academically at 19 years old but it would have been so

years old but it would have been so beneficial to be exposed at it and as a

beneficial to be exposed at it and as a curator of the museum it's very um and

curator of the museum it's very um and it's the power to um to kind of moderate

it's the power to um to kind of moderate this type of conversation in a way that

this type of conversation in a way that it will educate people and plus Qatar is

it will educate people and plus Qatar is the Hub of diversity there's countries

the Hub of diversity there's countries I've never heard of before and I meet

I've never heard of before and I meet them daily in Georgetown people from

them daily in Georgetown people from Mulia Romania The Gambia and what better

Mulia Romania The Gambia and what better chance for us to learn um in

chance for us to learn um in duha thank you thank you very

duha thank you thank you very much see the focus group we've assembled

much see the focus group we've assembled here for you guys thank you guys once

here for you guys thank you guys once more for your candid thoughts as at Doha

more for your candid thoughts as at Doha debates as you can see we embrace the

debates as you can see we embrace the spirit of the meist a welcoming space

spirit of the meist a welcoming space dedicated to under understanding

dedicated to under understanding multiple perspectives and to that end

multiple perspectives and to that end let's take a moment to reflect on

let's take a moment to reflect on everything that we've heard this evening

everything that we've heard this evening from what we've discussed was there

from what we've discussed was there anything that resonated with you or

anything that resonated with you or anything that perhaps might have shifted

anything that perhaps might have shifted your perspective on

your perspective on something hi everyone my name is Jenna

something hi everyone my name is Jenna I'm from Bangladesh which means because

I'm from Bangladesh which means because of orientalism I'm from India so um but

of orientalism I'm from India so um but I grew up here in kasara which means my

I grew up here in kasara which means my identity is not just twofold but

identity is not just twofold but three-fold because as somebody pointed

three-fold because as somebody pointed out Doha is the Hub of

out Doha is the Hub of international um cultures everything

international um cultures everything thing comes together here and so I feel

thing comes together here and so I feel like I've grown up with multiple

like I've grown up with multiple different cultures and um what I really

different cultures and um what I really found interesting about this discussion

found interesting about this discussion is that um there should be a line drawn

is that um there should be a line drawn on orientalism and journalism and

on orientalism and journalism and documentaries and where we essentially

documentaries and where we essentially expect to find the truth so when I'm

expect to find the truth so when I'm watching the news I don't want to see

watching the news I don't want to see orientalis tropes I don't want to see

orientalis tropes I don't want to see people being dehumanized but when it

people being dehumanized but when it comes to Art and this might be a

comes to Art and this might be a controversial opinion but I do believe

controversial opinion but I do believe that there is a um not like I don't

that there is a um not like I don't obviously want to see my culture you

obviously want to see my culture you know through this boeris lens but I

know through this boeris lens but I think there is a lot of nuance in that

think there is a lot of nuance in that as anayia pointed out and I don't think

as anayia pointed out and I don't think we could in especially in terms of art

we could in especially in terms of art conflate the sort of like argument with

conflate the sort of like argument with like you know East versus West kind of

like you know East versus West kind of thing because it just perpetuates that

thing because it just perpetuates that sort of argumentative you know thing I

sort of argumentative you know thing I think because of the spirit of mjus we

think because of the spirit of mjus we should aspire to sort of Build Together

should aspire to sort of Build Together in the future so that orientalism or

in the future so that orientalism or orientalis tropes are not you know put

orientalis tropes are not you know put forward again or promote it again and my

forward again or promote it again and my belief is that you know we can't raas

belief is that you know we can't raas the future or oh sorry we can't erase

the future or oh sorry we can't erase the past or how people have depicted Us

the past or how people have depicted Us in the past but what we can do is paint

in the past but what we can do is paint the future and build a narrative with

the future and build a narrative with our stories our feelings and our

our stories our feelings and our emotions and make it all more inclusive

emotions and make it all more inclusive and better for

[Music] [Applause]

[Applause] us so um as a journalist I came to uh

us so um as a journalist I came to uh compare journalism and media

compare journalism and media institutions of today with art and Ori

institutions of today with art and Ori orientalis art in the past in the past

orientalis art in the past in the past we didn't have media institutions that

we didn't have media institutions that we as we are having it today but I

we as we are having it today but I believe that what was media is Do's art

believe that what was media is Do's art so we should not only perceive them as

so we should not only perceive them as just like piece of art and we should be

just like piece of art and we should be appreciating this beauty and art and

appreciating this beauty and art and exhibit them in the museums but actually

exhibit them in the museums but actually however we need to really know that

however we need to really know that that's it wasn't it's it wasn't coming

that's it wasn't it's it wasn't coming from an an innocent place as media today

from an an innocent place as media today is not an uh is not an innocent

is not an uh is not an innocent institution same goes with orientalis

institution same goes with orientalis arts and pieces of art that H happen to

arts and pieces of art that H happen to be made in the past they weren't

be made in the past they weren't innocent they were made for a purpose so

innocent they were made for a purpose so we should be always critical about it

we should be always critical about it that's why I believe that L music Museum

that's why I believe that L music Museum hopefully in the future should uh be

hopefully in the future should uh be very critical about what to show and

very critical about what to show and what to not show because some piece of

what to not show because some piece of Arts are made as a crime they are crime

Arts are made as a crime they are crime in history so we should be very um

in history so we should be very um critical about showing them to the world

critical about showing them to the world or not because their power is very huge

or not because their power is very huge and it has a huge impact and that's it

and it has a huge impact and that's it thank you so much thank you so much

thank you so much thank you so much thank you to all of you our time

thank you to all of you our time together has come to a close and

together has come to a close and fortunately as we heard from our

fortunately as we heard from our participants today we're not just

participants today we're not just defining ourselves through the prism of

defining ourselves through the prism of others we're celebrating the identities

others we're celebrating the identities that have always been ours let me thank

that have always been ours let me thank you all for joining us today alah Fatima

you all for joining us today alah Fatima and Anaya F and Iman we also want to

and Anaya F and Iman we also want to give a special thanks to Dr na bin Nahar

give a special thanks to Dr na bin Nahar for his valuable contribution and of

for his valuable contribution and of course to all of our amazing bright

course to all of our amazing bright participants here that give me so much

participants here that give me so much hope in the future thank you for being

hope in the future thank you for being here

here [Music]

[Music] and thank you to the Qatar foundation

and thank you to the Qatar foundation for bringing us all together and to

for bringing us all together and to lucel museum to the VCU Arts Kar for

lucel museum to the VCU Arts Kar for making this event possible let's

making this event possible let's continue the conversation online on

continue the conversation online on Instagram YouTube and Twitter we are at

Instagram YouTube and Twitter we are at Doha debates on all social media

Doha debates on all social media platforms for Doha debates I'm Dina

platforms for Doha debates I'm Dina takruri thank you for joining

takruri thank you for joining [Applause]

[Applause] [Music]

[Music] [Applause]

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Orientalism Demystified: Eastern insights on Western myths | Doha Debates Town Hall