This discussion explores the evolving landscape of talent acquisition and HR, emphasizing the need for adaptability, data-driven insights, and a human-centric approach amidst rapid technological advancements and shifting workforce dynamics.
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Hello and welcome back to today's
episode. My name is Ron Simpson. I'm a
creative entrepreneur from Amsterdam and
we have a stellar lineup of guests as
promised with today Der Feltzman and I
know how to pronounce that because we
are both in the Netherlands at the
moment. How are you doing?
>> I'm doing well, thanks Ron. Lovely to be
with you.
>> It's amazing to have you here. We're
going to take a deep dive into the world
of talent acquisition, AI, workforce
strategy, and absolutely everything in
between. I hope you're ready for that.
There's going to be some jokes, too. I'm
just warning you. Um cuz it's, you know,
we're listening to get inspired. We're
listening to hear all this news and
insights, but we're also we just want to
be entertained a little bit as well. So,
from data to disruption, we're covering
it all. Please buckle up and let's get
ready. Um cuz I've heard like I've read
your bio and I've read absolutely
everything. But for everyone who's been
living under a rock that doesn't know
the academy or the fact that you're a
professor in South Africa and doing all
this cool [ __ ] could you explain
exactly who you are and what you do? As
if we were at a party.
>> As if we were at a party. Right. So um I
would probably start by saying I'm the
the chief HR scientist at the Academy to
Innovate HR. And as much as I would love
to say that that means I do some freaky
experiments in a lab somewhere, that's
actually not what it means.
>> Are you sure?
>> Well, maybe from time to time, right?
>> Okay. Yeah, let's keep it real.
>> From my side, that means I am
responsible for a we're a a platform
focused on career development for HR
professionals globally. and I'm
responsible for a lot of our insights
work, a lot of our thought leadership um
as well as then understanding what are
the challenges that our clients are
facing in the HR world and how can we
help them solve through skills
development going forward. So a little
bit boring probably for a party that
last part but uh that's typically what I
get up to.
>> I wouldn't say it's it's uh it's boring.
I would say it's long. I don't know if
that fits on a business card but you
know I get that. And um now besides that
like personally and and how would you
describe yourself as a person cuz we're
talking human capital.
>> Yeah, of course. Right. So I think I'm
uh somebody that's fascinated by the
behavior of other human beings whether
that's in their personal lives or in
their professional lives. Someone that
loves the outdoors, love nature. Um and
yeah, just kind of love to see how
people set up their lives and the
decisions that they make that makes them happy.
happy.
>> Cool. So, I want to talk a lot about
strategy and innovation with you today.
Um, but obviously it's also a lot about
resumes and who you know that type of
stuff. So,
>> I'm sure you have a very long resume,
but what would be the top three shining
items on it?
>> Yeah. So, I mean, I have a little bit of
a I think a very diverse career. So,
maybe let me put it that way that the
three shiny items would be on the one
side. I have a bit of an academic
career. So I am a professor of practice
which means that I lecture and involved
in a lot of research priorities. The
second part is I am an ex- chief HR
officer. So I looked after a global
business from an HR point of view
looking after Asia, Africa and the
United Kingdom. And on the other side I
am the chief scientist as I mentioned at
AIHR. So building a lot of frameworks
about the future of HR and the future of
work. And I'm a published author. I've
just released um a book a couple of
months ago and there's another two on
the way that will release before the end
of 2025.
>> Holy [ __ ] Okay. So, do I call you chief
from now on or can I just say diet?
>> DA is perfectly okay. No worries.
>> Okay, that's great. Okay, so we've
discussed all that shines on your
resume, which is quite a lot. What would
be the one thing that should actually be
on there that is not on there? What do
we need to know about you also
professionally or or something? Are you
amazing at, I don't know, folding paper
planes or saving the world or running backwards?
backwards?
>> Uh, I think I am amazing at seeing how
other people have designed wonderful
PowerPoint slides and then reusing them
for myself without having to design them
uh on on my own. So,
>> chief artist,
>> well, the the chief collector of other
people's art. Let me put it that way.
>> I would definitely put that on resume.
That sounds like you're saving me time.
you know, that that's just that's that's
a smart thing to do. Um, so yeah, are
you ready to dive right in? Are you
ready to, you know, get the people what
they want, which is kind of important, I
think. Um, because there's a big
question like when it comes to the whole
transformation of talent acquisition,
right? There's a lot going on. Um,
workforce strategy, the whole AI thing,
the automatization thing, the shortage
thing, like everyone in the world is
looking at all these trends and
problems. um how do you think you as a
person or you with your company or
wherever you uh partner up with make an
actual impact and in which part of these
fields would that be?
>> Yeah, great question. Right. So, as I
said before, our universe is the human
resources professional and I define that
very broadly, right? It's people working
in talent, people working in learning
and development, in HR and in
organizational development. for
basically anybody that's working in the
people's science. I think we make a
massive difference in helping and
enabling those people to have the skills
to guide and help their organizations in
the times that we find ourselves. So to
make that really practical, you know,
when we have to talk about how is AI
going to impact an organization, there
has to be a people science HR person in
the room that says but that's got a real
impact on people and we make a
contribution about giving that
particular individual the skill sets
that they require to be confident in
those conversations. So for me it's very
much around how do we prepare the HR
workforce to guide the organizations and
to kind of shape that next chapter of
work. So very much inside out, right?
You look from a company strategy and you
say, "Hey, these are the tools you will
need to make sure that you are futurep
proof with everything that is coming."
>> Yeah. And I think it goes both ways,
right? So inside out, how do we give you
the skill to be able to have that
impact? And then outside in, what's
happening in the external world that
then feeds the new things that you need
to learn um over time. So for me it's
all about you know if somebody walks to
me up to me in a couple of years time
and said you know the stuff that you and
AHR did made me relevant and impactful I
think we would have done a great job.
>> Well that sounds like a compliment to
get. Do you think um like for any
company at the moment is would it be a
strategy based on like the most
brilliant and most talented and best
people in the world or just a really
good strategy that could give tools to,
you know, a way bigger group than that
to actually get the work done?
>> Yeah, I have a I have a lovehate
relationship with strategy, right? So, I
think it's something that we spend a
hell of a lot of time on, but I think we
don't necessarily translate that into
the day-to-day practical realities of
what are we going to do. Let's be
honest, strategy crafting is not that
difficult. We can all come up with great
plans, but are we able to translate them
into what we need now and how we shift
and move the organization forward? I
think we are at an interesting point in,
you know, how organizations think about
their future with things like AI, etc.,
around what does that next chapter for
them look like and how they're going to
get there. I personally don't think it's
just a couple of brilliant minds that'll
get us there. I think we are actually
facing an era where it's about workforce
transformation and who the workforce is
and who's going to be doing the work
going forward. And you know, an example
I always love to use is we we talk about
how AI is going to impact work and it
most definitely will. So what are we
going to do with regards to the global
workforce because this is
>> sorry let's go back for for you know I'm
a very simple person. You just said 70 70
70
>> 70%. there's a still a lot of people
that are not operating in this domain
that we talk about whenever we talk
about the digital reality of the world.
Now a lot of that sure sits in the
developing world but when we look at how
economies are also growing and where a
massive opportunity is in future those
are the types of markets that we should
also be talking about. So I think it's
not just a couple it's about how do we
do this for the broader masses and what
that's going to look like. That's an
interesting take because it feels like
all these problem shifts and trends are
are sort of in a bubble and actually if
70% is outside of that is that also what
holds a lot of businesses back like you
can figure out how to be cutting edge
for everything and everyone inside of
that bubble when it comes to innovation
or automization or use of AI but
sometimes you know people look at
companies and they're like why didn't
they just make this big strategic move
or why didn't they use this tool is this
one of the reasons
>> I I think it most definitely is and and
think about it from the external point
of view it also means that a whole bunch
of your consumers are not yet operating
in that domain right so I think as a
company target market will shift a lot
in future and then from the internal
point of view you know I think sometimes
we we forget that there's still a very
big part of the workforce if you think
frontline blue collar etc that don't
necessarily operate in all these
different domains and I think we need to
think very holistically about that we've
been skewed towards workforce
innovations being very knowledge worker
based um and that's not the majority of
the people um you know that that
actually forms part of the workforce and
I think it is an inhibiting factor and
we are at a tipping point where
>> the great innovations we seeing now
around technology and talent and all
those things can either bring us
together and I think build a stronger
future or it can continue to divide us
even further and I think that's the big
risk that we need to ask ourselves kind
of at a macro and societal level
>> so yeah do we want AI and tech to create
you know even more space between workers
and thinkers right very very simply said
um I think that's a very interesting
insight you also said 70% is not online
so trends outside of the bubble are
interesting as well if AI tech
automatization shortage and all these
things would be part of that bubble
which trends would you see outside of
that bubble what is going on in that 70%
that is not online
>> yeah I think you know there's still a
very strong reality and I sometimes
smile. You know, whenever we talk about
things like employee value propositions,
people work for different reasons and
they work to get different things done,
right? So, for some people, it's a
vocation. They just love what they do.
It's the reason they wake up. For other
people, work is a reality because I need
to feed my family and this is what was
available in my current context and in
my particular environment. So, I think
there's also trends with the
relationship that people have with work
is starting to change and that fits
outside of that bubble. Happens there as
well. But I think it's actually
shifting, you know, to go a lot more
beyond that. Um, and I think it will be
interesting to see cuz for me in the
talent market, what's going to be
interesting over the years to come is
how does that relationship shift between
employers and employees and the
decisions that people make around why I
want to work for a particular company
because maybe it's the only company in
my community I've got no other choice,
but that's got a significant impact on
my engagement and my motivation. or if I
do have a different choice, am I willing
enough to vote with my feet and go
elsewhere if, you know, this isn't
something that aligns with what I
actually want?
>> That's a very strong insight. Um,
Ashley, I've this whole conversation
with you up until now has been one big
aha moment for me, right? I'm like, aha.
Okay, so this makes sense. Um, what
would have been your aha moment? I mean,
you you're, you know, in the trenches,
you're all the way deep inside of this
industry. um which tool or strategy or
move or even thought or concept gave you
a real aha moment when it comes to you
know moving forward within HR.
>> So I think there's a you know there's
maybe a couple there. Um I think maybe
the first aha insight especially in the
HR space was I think we haven't done a
great job over the years of redefining
what HR's mandate is going to be in the
future of work. So practically what do I
mean by that is very often you know and
that's why I smiled at the beginning
when you asked me you know how would I
describe myself at a party if somebody
asks you very few HR professionals are
kind of standing up proud to say you
know I am in HR because what's the
response you get you know can you look
at my CV do you have opportunities you
know I'm struggling with a really difficult
difficult
>> I was just about to ask could you take a
look at my
>> exactly right so it's very much still
the higher fire mentality that a lot of
people have but that yes that's part of
what HR does but HR is so much more than
that today. So that for me was a massive
insight that not everybody sees HR for
the value driver that it can be and very
often that it's the baggage of the past
that holds it back. I never realized how
that actually plays out in practice
because you know you deal a lot with the
strategic work from HR, strategic
talent, etc. But for a lot of people
that reality is still very
transactional, very operational, still
you know they jump into the boardroom
when I see HR coming because it means
I'm in trouble. So that was quite a, you
know, I think a big insight for me. Um, yeah.
yeah.
>> Okay. Yeah. Cuz it always feels like HR
is for the company and they always say
we're for the people, right? So I think
that that also for me personally when I
used to work in corporate that was
always the vibe. Um, and I'm a marketeteer.
marketeteer.
>> I believe everything is marketing
anyway. So I've personally seen quite a
big rebranding of HR lately. I don't
think I've heard the word HR um at a
party anymore, right? people would say
all kinds of different things like I
work in human capital or I work in
>> you know
>> no you're right I think you know I've
I've often said um you know HR
departments have got a PR problem um
because I think you need to some
repositioning on your reputation etc and
it you know it's fine for me if we
change the name whether we call it
people and culture whether we call it
human capital whether we call it you
know operations people experience etc
but are we fundamentally changing the
mandate and the type of work we do with
the rebranding of the name. Otherwise,
it just feels like the same old thing,
but we're just dressing it up in a new
sexy term, which I don't think helps in
>> lipstick on a pig. There we go. Finally
that one in context. Uh yeah, just
changing packaging. I mean, that that's
not good enough, right? We need a
product to move. So, I know you don't
have a crystal ball or at least I'm I'm
hoping you don't because life is more
fun without it. But
>> where would you see talent acquisition
and the whole HR tech heading in the
next two or three years? Yeah, I think
you know it's such an interesting time
there because I I think what we are
already starting to see is high level of
personalization starting to take place
just given some new technologies that
coming into play. So you know you
mentioned you're a marketeteer. I think
on the talent acquisition side we're
starting to take a lot of lessons from
marketing and how you actually would
nurture a customer during the different
stages of the funnel. And I think that's
fundamentally changing the way that
talent acquisition is not just about the
interviews I have and the engagements.
It's a lot more about the brand
building, the visibility, the
credibility in the market and what leads
toward that decision for people to want
to engage with you as a brand. When I
talk about the personalization pieces, I
think you're starting to deal with
talent that expects things to be more
outbound, tailored to their preferences,
a lot more targeted, and that is
definitely going to change the way that
we segment and think about the talent
market and who we trying to attract. see
different messaging from the same
organization going out to cater for
different profiles and I don't think
it's going to be a standardized
experience anymore. I think it will be
highly personalized with memorable
moments that we put out and we'll have
the technology to be able to do that at
scale and I think that's interesting to
see how it changes.
>> I think that's interesting as well. Do
you think um because of this right we're
doing more volume we're doing more uh
access points and data points to figure
out the targeting for every specific
person whether it's language or or you
know whatever it is that's a lot of work
so do you think the traditional sort of
hiring practice will be replaced by tech
>> I think a lot of it will be I think
we've already seen massive automation in
that space over the last couple of years
right and I think um in the HR space at
least with AI adoption, sourcing, talent
acquisition, recruitment has been one of
the areas that's been targeted and
focused on first. So we see a lot of use
cases in that environment already. Of
course, there's some legislative things
we need to sort out and figure out from
an ethics point of view there as well.
But I think to do high level
personalization that's data and
evidence-driven at scale, you do need a
different approach with a different
technology stack that's actually driving
that over time. And to be honest, you
need a different HR skill set that looks
at that in a very very different way.
It's not just about the process, it's
about the experience that I'm trying to
create and how can I use what I've got
available um to its utmost effect
>> or even the result right of that whole
process or the whole thing. Like it's
just we're trying to achieve something
and these are tools. Um, so for me I was
always like wondering me as a marketer I
was just looking at this market like
okay how long will it take before AI
writes a resume then sends it to an AI
who reads the resume then responds and
they're just going to have a
conversation and at the end I just walk
into a room right
>> they're like hey I think our computers
like each other let's uh let's go
>> and I mean you you're absolutely correct
that we already starting to see you know
experimentation and things like AI based
interviewing and like CV screening etc.
I sometimes wonder if the if the
converse is not going to happen around
the fact that people are going to seek
authenticity and human touch a lot more
and sure you can't do it at every single
step and every single stage of the of
the process but actually be attracted to
that a lot more. I think what's going to
be clever for organizations to think
about is for what talent in which
segment do I want to create a hightouch
experience versus where it's just about
volumes and efficiency and making sure
that I get people through you know the
pipeline and I think that's an
interesting conversation that we that we
can have that goes beyond
standardization of practice and process
um but what do I want to create
>> there's music on the streamers and
there's a vinyl record that someone
loves dearly I think it's one That's
exactly what it should be. >> Um,
>> Um,
so listen man, you're you're doing so
many things, right? On the one hand,
you're busy with innovation. On the
other hand, you're busy with tech. On
the other hand, you're teaching, you're
doing all these cool things. So, looking
ahead, um, what's currently on your
strategic work for workforce agenda,
let's say, for the next 24, 36 months?
>> Yeah, it's an interesting question,
right? I think there's a there's a
couple of things that you know I ponder
about a lot. Maybe if I can start there.
>> Okay. Yeah.
>> Right. So I I think you know rightly so
AI is all the buzz but I think over the
next 24 to 36 months it's about figuring
out how do we make it practical and
sustainable and I think there's a lot of
questions there. So on not only my plan
but also us as a business is what does
allin on AI look like for us? What does
that mean and how do we make that real
and practical for both our members and
ourselves? I think that's for me quite a
big you know a big question. The second
one is you know we play a lot in the
learning and development domain for HR
professionals and I think a big one is
we are battling for people's attention.
Um and that's become even more so. So
how do we create those meaningful
moments that matter for people in the
flow of work and in the flow of life
because I think we are competing with
various you know content channels and I
think people are getting completely
overwhelmed. So if human development is
important, where and when do we do it?
And I think that's quite an interesting one.
one.
>> And as I said before, I never I think it's
it's
>> there's never ever been a better time to
be in HR than now. But the next 24 to 36
months requires significant shifts in
mandate, how we put our operating models
in place and how we are going to
reposition ourselves as we enter this
new, you know, call it AIdriven
organizations of the future.
>> I think it's very interesting because in
the marketing world, we've been
discussing this forever, right? the
attention economy and everyone's
fighting for the same seconds and
minutes, right?
>> It's interesting that that even reaches
>> HR professional
>> on at a global, you know, scale.
>> To me, it's it's the like the big shadow
thing that is just eating the world at
the moment. It's like who gets your
attention and and and also the retention
and therefore the engagement, which I
think is interesting to see that from an
HR perspective as well. Um, at the same
time, speaking of things that get that
are getting our attention, like the
world has probably always been on fire,
but it feels more on fire than ever,
right? There's so much going on. Um,
whether it's wars or it's tariffs or
it's lord knows what's going on. Um, and
together with the speed of like the
development of things like AI, but
mostly the communication around things
like AI, right? You wake up every day,
five new tools, five new this, five new
that. Um,
looking at that, would you say it would
be smarter to shorten your like future
plans and like maybe in the past we
would do five year plans and threeear
plans, maybe it should now be three in
one or maybe it should turn into months.
I don't know. How do you see that? Do
you think we we are strong enough to
predict the future when it comes to
strategy within this industry or we
should actually adapt to way more, you
know, flexible work? Yeah, I'm going to
give you the typical psychologist answer
on that one, right? In terms of that
it's a it depends and it's an andor that
we would probably need to do. I think
>> in times that we are living in now
that's very turbulent and with where
change happens quite a bit and I think
there's a lot of very you know big
disruptive events you know and you can
kind of list the name what's happened
over the 12 months there. I think it's
even more important to be very clear as
an organization on your purpose and your
reason for existence. And I think that's
a long-term thing that you aspire to
over time. The other side of that is
that the world is changing too quickly
to be that predictable and that static.
So I think in your strategies you need
to build in a lot more scenario-based
thinking. So what happens when these
various futures start to occur and then
I think you do need to review it on a
more regular cycle because strategy is
no longer a threeyear or a 5year plan. I
think purpose definitely is, but I think
strategy has become something that we
look at a lot more frequently to make
sure are we still making the right
decisions on what we say yes and no to
in order to be able to move our
organization along. So I think there's a
little bit of both around being nimble
in execution but also on the other side
knowing when and where to kind of chat
about you know the strategic stuff. Um
not being rigid I think is going to be a
key you know key thing for any
organization um over the next couple of months.
months.
Yeah, I think purpose gives you
direction. It gives you, you know, a
compass to know where you're going, but
then on that path could be anything. You
need nimble uh you need to be nimble.
You need flexibility to be able to adapt
to that.
>> I think you see that more with people as
well. Uh obviously organizations and
companies, they're they're bigger and
therefore slower to move and uh and
innovate, but in people, I see it all
the time. like someone could reposition
themselves every week, every day,
>> which I think is interesting and and to
me that is what companies should look
out for as well. Like be the company you
need to be to achieve your purpose. I
think that's a a very interesting thing.
Now listen,
>> I just want you I I need a hard answer,
right? We're just doing one.
>> Yes, but it's a very easy question, but
it is game show style. So, do you
believe traditional long-term planning
is dead? Yes or no? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
Thank you. Same. Um, now I could I could
listen to you like forever, but I also
know that you're going to be a speaker
at a very cool event right here in
Amsterdam in September. Um, which I
think is cool. And it also it's
basically like HR. It has this
incredibly long name which I'm going to
repeat for everyone. It's going to be
the Global Talent Strategy and
Intelligence Conference. Right.
>> We need to find a They need to make a
short little version of that. Um, but it
it's going to be cool. It's going to be
three days. You're going to be on stage.
There's going to be amazing other
speakers as well. Now, imagine, right,
the world changes and you can only use
one slide. What will be on it?
>> On my slide, I would talk Oh, that's a
very good question actually. Um,
yeah, I would I would talk about what
are the scenarios for the future that we
need to consider in terms of our talent
strategies. If I only had one slide, I
would say there's three possible
futures. what are the ones that we think
is going to start to happen and how do
we prepare today to be ready for
whichever one of the futures um you know
becomes the reality over time. So
there's three. Okay. We're not going to
give all three away. Just just tease
one. Tease one of them and come to the
event to hear the other two. Let's go.
>> Yeah. So I think the one is, you know,
talent um international talent mobility
is in a situation where given global
conflict, you know, people are less
mobile than what they were before and
the workforce becomes a lot more
distributed. How do we work in that
reality? um where you you can't get your
people together um and you are working
with colleagues sitting together even
though their countries might be in
conflict with each other. What does that
look like? Um so I think those are the
types of things that we need to think
about in the in the talent world.
>> I think you're absolutely right. I can't
wait to hear the other two. Um
another sort of game show question I
guess right short sweet answer. Are you
more of a data person or a gut feeling
person? data definitely
every day of the week
>> data for breakfast why
why
>> so you know I think for there's a couple
of reasons for that right I think we are
all as human beings we are biased and we
have our own beliefs and assumptions
about the world and as much as I think
that makes us beautiful interesting
human beings it also sometimes makes us
limited in what we think the the current
reality is having said that though I
think data helps us cut through a lot of
that noise but data in isolation is not
useful. It's for me about data in
context. So data is something that
informs and phrases our thinking and
helps us to see new possibilities um as
part of that and I'm very much on how do
we combine what you know yourself with
the data that you see and how does that
generate a new insight for you that
wasn't something that you thought about before.
before.
>> So it's about thinking and knowing. I
haven't heard feeling one time. So is
feeling out of HR?
>> Of course not. So it's obviously part
and parcel to what we do but I think it
is also about um you know making sense.
So for me sense making is a big big part
of that. How do we make sense of what's
happening to us? And that combines you
know thinking, feeling and doing. Um if
you want to think about them in a little triangle
triangle
>> I like triangles. That's good. Um and
since you you are very data driven like
what would be the three most important
data points to look at? Which one matter
the most?
Well, I almost want to answer it in a
little bit of a different way. I would
say what are the three questions that
you're asking um that you should rather
be asking yourself and then to go and
look at the data in that context because
I think we make the mistake of being
obsessed with the data and not so much
with the questions that we need to ask.
Um you know, if you're working in talent
management today, I think you should be
asking, you know, what does our what
what can our workforce in the future do?
How is that different than what we have
today? And what should we put in place
today to bridge that gap? I think those
are three crucial questions you should
always be asking yourself when you're
thinking about the future of talent
management and talent insights. The data
points that answer those questions will
differ from time to time depending on
who you are as an organization but I
think the questions stay the same.
>> That's very true and I think that's also
like I believe in data a lot but I
believe in feelings too and
>> um the thing I think is interesting is
that data by itself is nothing right.
It's all about the analytics of the data
>> and those are uh the tools to create the
stories in which we present the data. So
do you think a lot of data stories are
like you know corrupted colored or you
know beneficial from the the presenter
um or do you think that data is is you
know the fundamental truth of what
people are using it for? So I think we
we fall into the trap you know that
you've mentioned a little bit that we
get so sucked into the data itself that
we forget that you know data is a
vehicle to achieve something else. So
whenever we talk about you know
utilizing data to tell stories we always
say but what is the question you're
asking? What is the um answer that you
are trying to to explore and then what
is the action that you want people to
take? Utilize the data in the narrative
and in the story to be able to get
there. Um, you know, there's a very big
difference between what is interesting
from a data point of view versus what is
what is useful and it's not always, you
know, the same. I've been in boardrooms
where they build beautiful like
datadriven packs that is not useful at
all versus somebody else in real time.
>> Exactly. By dashboarding and slicing and
dicing and everything and then I've been
in other rooms where people bring in two
slides that's based on some data
insights that they've done and it sparks
a full day conversation on decisions
that we need to make. So I think it is
about seeing things in context as I've
mentioned but don't drown in the data
rather spend time in the insight and in
the sense making and what is the action
that we wanted to take because data
needs to move things. It's not about
keeping things you know static and it's
not just about looking back. It's about
what do we know about the past through
the data that can help us with
conversations for the future.
>> I think that's a brilliant quote. Data
needs to move things. I like that. I'm
putting that on a t-shirt. Is that okay?
>> Go for it by all means. Okay, happy to.
Um, you know, so there's there's also a
lot of systems. We're talking about
data. We're talking about, you know, the
attention economy. We're talking about
all these things. So there's almost no
way to not discuss social online
platforms or digital online platforms,
right? So in the world of HR, obviously
there's there are things like LinkedIn,
there are things like Indeed. What is
your take on these platforms? So I think
they play a very important part of the
you know the talent ecosystem if I can
call it that of the future. I think you
earlier made the point to say you know
any platform or technology remember what
it is it is a tool in the context of
something else that does need to happen.
I think where they play a massive role
is for the first time you know HR
professionals are able to reach a bigger
part of the workforce in a way that is a
lot more as I've said before
personalized and scalable. And I think
on the other side it does allow us with
the opportunity to engage with people in
a very different way and be able to kind
of gather them in a very different way
and communicate with them.
>> I think um what it should never be is
just about the technology and I think
the technology is not something to hide
behind if I can call it that that kind
of replaces the human connection that we
want to create in the organization.
>> But you know I think massively
technologies already changed talent and
HR significantly and will continue to do
so. Um I always just ask people around
is the technology driving what you do or
are you using the technology to drive
what you actually wanted to achieve
because it's two very very different
things. Um I think we can get stuck on
you know I have tool X that can do XY Z
so that becomes my strategy which I
think isn't correct versus I want to
achieve this which tool can help me get
there or combination of tools and how do
I put them into play and I think that is
what the important focus should be. I
would call that uncommon sense.
>> Uncommon sense like that. It's probably
strong word you can also use.
>> Yeah. Yeah. True. But you know
marketing. So anyway um these platforms
um when I compare them to other you know
more social driven mass audience things
um they are a little bit lacking
>> right because they don't have the same
amount of users and so they develop less
tech or maybe they they have different
preferences. But how do you think these platforms
platforms
uh need to evolve? What would you add if
you could if you were the master of
LinkedIn? What would you add?
>> Yeah. So I'm going to answer it in two
ways, right? So the first one is, you
know, and I hear this a lot from
employees where they say, you know, why
when I engage with your HR technologies,
it feels like 1960, but when I'm
outside, it feels like I'm in 2025. Why
aren't we applying the same
consumer-based principles when we build
technologies for consumers that we do
when we build for employees? You know, I
would argue that employees spend, you
know, x amount of time at work. The type
of technology that they need to utilize
also kind of needs to give that
intuitive experience. You know, the same
things that you would think about in
marketing, the hooks you want to build
in, the way that the technology
operates, it being intuitive, etc. So, I
think that's a crucially important
thing. The second thing you know you ask
then what would I do differently about
the current technologies
we do need to get a point and I know
that for commercial reasons people don't
want to go that way but where these
technologies start playing a lot better
with each other and stops confusing the
employee on the other side there's still
so many employees where organizations
have great HR technology but it's not
integrated it gives a fragmented
employee experience I have to swap
between different systems to do
different things some things are
available in this channel and not in in
another channel. So for me it would
start with understanding who the
employee is as a consumer of the
technology and then actually designing
for them in that way that's a lot more
integrated and you know just makes a lot
more sense. >> Rich,
>> Rich,
that's you have a fan by now. Okay. Um I
I I think those are really legit. I
think those are uh those are interesting
involvements as well because to me it
feels like the
>> the consumer experience world is blurring.
blurring. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. We we expect the same sort of
level of communication from major
entertainment whether it's Netflix or
Nike and we expect that now from our
dentist and from our employer right
>> and I think that's a very strong
realization that people need to
understand that if it's not that cool
that they lose attention and engagement
>> um so cool is sort of the new basic
which I think is an interesting thing
>> you know I speak to a lot of HR people
and they'll say you know oh our
self-service in the organization is
really really terrible why are we not
getting traction and adoption, you know,
would you use it if you had to buy it
with your own money? It's a question I
often ask my, you know, HR teams and and
some of our clients. I said, if
>> if HR was a product, would you buy it
with your own money? Would you recommend
it to somebody else and would you
continue to use it? Typical consumer
questions. If your question is, you
know, to be honest, I wouldn't really
buy it because it's not good enough,
then why on earth are you expecting
people to really adopt and to utilize
it? So, I think that thinking has to
change, uh, you know, quite a bit. Yeah.
Uh I had used actually the same
principles when it comes to like social
media content and things. Um talked to a
lot of brands and a lot of companies who
try to translate whatever they're doing
to content to reach consumers and I'm
like why on earth would I follow you?
You're a
>> spot on
>> you know with all respect um I don't
know why if you're if you're a plumber
why why should I be following you on
social media? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> There are ways to do it but there's more
ways not to do it. Right. put on.
>> And it doesn't really matter if you're a
plumber or or anything else. It's just
like the the the question why. Would you
use it yourself? Would you follow it
yourself? Would you buy it yourself? I
think that's a very very good tool. I
think you are absolutely spot on. Now,
you seem like a very clever man that
knows uh a few things. So, everyone
knows Indeed and everyone knows LinkedIn
and there's probably a whole bunch of
other platforms that you all know. But
what is like the who are the new kids on
the block? Who's the most exciting
company or most exciting tool or person
that you know that we should know about?
>> Well, that's a little bit of a question
putting uh putting me on the spot there,
right? So, um I think there's a lot of
interesting things that's being done in
two places, right? So, I think companies
that are playing very extensively in
like the skills-based market and
utilizing AI insights there. So, I think
you know companies like Techwolf, I
think companies like Gloat, I think they
do a really good job. um fuel 50 you
know kind of thinking very differently
about your internal talent landscape um
and you know not to you know kind of
promote any brands there or not but I
would keep an eye and a watch on the
young up and cominging HR tech companies
that don't have the legacy to build that
they need to fall back on and that's
really open to building and what we've
discussed today this new consumerfocused
um you know intuition type of technology
that is really focused on the experience
that we want to create I think people
that compete in that domain I think
they're going to be the ones that really
get ahead.
>> Okay. And without um promoting any
brands, could you accidentally name some?
>> Um you know, I think that there's going
to be different ones, right? Depending
on what you do. I think what is
interesting and maybe not to name any,
what I think is interesting is that it's
not the it's not the natural big ERP ERP
players that are the fastest with the
innovation um you know, driving
especially the talent landscape. I think
it's a lot more the smaller to mediumsiz
players that's coming out with really
really interesting things. I would
probably say a word of caution though. I
think at the moment everybody is using
AI and it masquerades as stuff that's
not necessarily AI. So, you know, I
think those would be things just to to
watch out for.
>> It's an amazing political answer without
accidentally naming absolutely anyone.
>> Okay, let's try this again. You are a
professor. I'm a student. I need help.
I'm failing. Who should I where should I
watch? What do I type in? like help.
>> So I maybe let me answer it differently.
Who do I keep an eye on? Right. So
>> yes, who would you keep an eye on?
>> Who do I keep an eye on? Like I said
before, I keep an eye on um a lot of the
AI skills companies. So yeah, I think
Techwolf for example, I think they are
doing really interesting things. I think
Gloat is doing really interesting
things. I do think indeed etc is doing
interesting things. They've been doing
um a lot of new innovations uh you know
that we've also started to see come out
there which I think is quite
interesting. Um I'm also it's a vendor
that we also utilize but I keep an eye
on what Lenosity is doing in the
learning landscape and how we measure um
you know impact based learning u which I
think they're also shifting things and
then a company I love to follow which I
think is just good from a market
insights point of view is Rellio Labs. I
think they do really excellent work on
labor and market insights that I
personally also follow for a lot of
talent trends and talent insights. So I would
would
>> thank you for not promoting anyone
>> to say go there I'm not promoting them. Yeah,
Yeah,
>> go there, see what those people are
doing, but they're uh I think they're
they're busy with some good stuff.
>> I feel you. Well, thank you for that. I
think that's going to be helpful for a
lot of people to figure that one out. Um
actually, the last subject I want to
touch upon probably is shortage, right?
This whole conception of
>> there's a shortage in the marketplace.
We can't find the right talents. um you
know is that about innovating to find
them or finally getting the basics right
to find what would you say?
>> I think there's a there's a little bit
of both there in the sense that I think
the way that we've always thought about
how we design work needs to change
because I think we've put this in the
container of a job and people need to be
able to do absolutely everything that
fits into a job and I don't think that's
a reality anymore. So I think we are
selling ourselves short. So the way we
design work I think needs to change to
be more realistic for the type of skills
that the market has and then that's able
then to actually utilize skills in a
different way. So what do I mean by that
is you might not have all 10 skills
that's required in one particular job
might be very scarce to find but if I
break that down into three different
skills clusters that you have maybe I've
got three people that can do those three
different elements. So I think it's more
about bringing the world of orc design
and workforce planning together with the
world of talent acquisition together
with the world of talent development and
kind of starting to think about those
different areas because they're very
fragmented at the moment. You know, we
think about our strategic workforce
plan. Do we really tie that into what
our talent acquisition people are
telling us about the market and what
skills they're starting to find more
difficult, you know, to source? And then
I think on the other side to your point,
I think there's some basics that will
never change, right? So how do we use
the data to understand the skills market
how do we bring that across in terms of
where we go and search and find for
things and you know I think we're in a
position where there's so much
intelligence out there you know there's
a great company that for example changed
their talent strategy they've got
multiple locations they realized in
location A they're just not finding the
particular skill set so they actually
moved the division to somewhere else
working together remotely in a different
way to an area where that skill set was
actually available so I think it's about
making some of those calls but being you
know very realistic and pragmatic about
some of those things because I think we
have the skills in the world that we
need and that we can develop but I think
we are not necessarily have the
packaging of what we are looking for. So
maybe the packaging which is a little
bit the you know the traditional work
and job architecture is the problem.
>> Yeah. So is global hiring and remote
working the answer and solution to shortage?
shortage?
>> I think it's one of the strategies to
look at. I think you know if I can't
find something in location X maybe I
need to look somewhere else and
obviously that provides me with you know
different opportunities. I'm not saying
that it is the only answer. I think
there has to be a lot more talk between
organizations and industries as well as
then tertiary education institutions.
You know what are the skill sets that we
are actually producing and what is the
education system look like that will
give us the skill set we require for the
future. So for me it's about how do we
build that pipeline for the next couple
of generations whilst the generation
that's currently in the workforce how do
we start thinking differently about
utilizing the skills that's currently
available. So you know remote work I
think it's a very important part of your
talent strategy not the only one and
obviously there's a lot of nuance to
that depending on who you are as an
employer but personally I think it has
to be a conversation at least around
what is your stance on it.
>> Amazing. I agree. Um, I have the best
question in the world waiting for you.
>> What question have I not asked you that
you would have wished I had?
>> What question have you have you asked me
yeah. No, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Uh, am I
optimistic about the future of talent
and HR? Maybe that's the
>> Are you optimistic about the future of
talent and HR?
>> Well, it's great, Ron, now that you ask
that particular question. Now I'm saying
that tongue and cheek because I think
there is a big narrative out there that
it's all doom and gloom and you know
it's such a tough time and the
environment is really tough which I
think is are all there is some truth to
that but I think it's a very interesting
time to be in the talent and in the HR
space and domain and there's so much
opportunity that we can tap into but it
is going to call on us to be a little
bit more courageous and to be able to
let go of a lot of things of the past
and embrace some of the new things
there. Um, but I think it's a good news
narrative. It's a positive narrative
that we do need to tap into. And it's
not about, oh, doom gloom. We don't have
the skills. We don't have the talent.
You know, everything is is kind of too
complex. Everything is going going down
the drain. That's not where we are
today. But it does not mean that we
should be waiting for people to define
our future. So maybe maybe that that helps.
helps.
>> You're a bad thing.
>> I think it's just ridiculous. I don't
think um more you know inspiration could
fit into one podcast. So we might have
to put a little you know ribbon around
it and see you on stage. I think that's
going to be very interesting. The last
and final uh segment is about quotes.
That's all it is. Do you have favorite
quotes or you know inspiring insights to
share with the people which we can cut
into five seconds and make that
attention economy buzz?
>> Yeah. So I I grew up in South Africa. So
I think my favorite quote comes from an
African proverb that still talks about
the fact if you want to go fast go
alone. If you want to go far, go
together. Um and I think that remains,
you know, one of my key things that I
always talk talk about whenever there's
a difficult decision to make about how
we bring people along.
>> That's one. You want you want to do
another 21 of these or are you okay?
>> No, I think that one's okay.
>> I think that one's okay. I'll just add
an extra one which is yours. You know,
data is meant to keep things moving. I
think that's a very very nice one. Uh
I'm definitely putting in my quote set
and yelling it at people. So, it's going
to be good. Um I would love to thank you
for your energy and your time and all
the wisdom you shared with us today and
uh look forward to seeing you here in
Amsterdam in September.
>> Fantastic. Thanks so much, Ron. Much
appreciated and look forward to it.
>> Absolutely. Same here. Um, so thank you
everyone also for listening. It it was
an insightful conversation. I think it's
cool to see how we continue to navigate
this entire landscape that keeps on
changing on global talent strategy. And
I'm sure everyone listening took
something away from today's podcast. I'm
100% sure of that. So be sure to join us
for GTSI 2025. It's in Amsterdam. It's
in September. And be part of the future
of workforce transformation. Until next
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