A lot of times people think of dangerous people  as something very obvious and overt. So, you know,  

if someone's dangerous, they're going to come up  and they're going to hold a gun and they're going  

to like ask me for my purse or, you know, they're  going to literally ask me for the thing. It's  

going to be very obvious if I'm getting exploited.  But it's it's not because really good con artists  

and people who are very good at manipulating, they  understand that the most effective way of getting  

things from people is not to be your enemy. it's  to be your friend. And even deeper than a friend,  

it's to be your lover. Um, if they can and if  that applies. So, to get the orange from someone,  

there's lots of different tactics that can be  used, but really examining how you might get an  

orange from someone as a friend, as a lover, as  a business salesman. There's a lot of different  

areas where this analogy can kind of um apply.  But I could tell you lots of stories about people  

who have given their oranges away for free so  that you think it's normal and you you almost  

want to be a part of that movement and that  experience. I could convince you that there's  

a huge reward waiting for you on the other side if  you give me the orange, whether it's access to me,  

whatever that reward might be. Um, and then also  I can obviously tell you like I love you a lot.  

sort of this guilt tripping. If you loved  me back, you would do this for me. So,  

why are you not doing this for me? And it causes  you to kind of question your own character. And  

if you don't have a strong sense of what love is  or what your own expectations for other people are  

or should be, you're you're up for grabs really.  The first part of the storyteller techniques is  

that you are cased for your vulnerabilities,  but then after you're cased and they figure  

out what your vulnerabilities are, you're  presented with a role. And most of the time,  

it's the special one, the most special one.  And in the world of modeling, I'm sure it's  

true for other creative areas as well, but in the  world of modeling, you're always the most special  

one. As long as you play by the rules, do what  you're told. Um, I wasn't good at that. So, I  

fell off that pedestal a lot. I kind of call that  a pedestal role. And you're up here and they're up  

here because they're obviously super special,  too. Both of you are like really special. Um,  

and you're kind of set up with a flaw sometimes,  not always. There there's different like pedestal  

roles you can have. Sometimes it's like the  best helper, you know, like you're the the  

best caretaker and they're actually the one with  the flaw. And then because you're codependent,  

that kind of like holds you hostage. They're like  this helpless child and you can't ever like leave  

them because you're like the best caretaker and  they need you to caretake. So there's definitely  

different types of roles that can come in.  But when it t it comes time um for them to  

start controlling you, they knock you off that  that pedestal and that's very painful for you  

if you feel like you need to be up there like you  can't lose that special title. So within modeling,  

there was a lot of me being like knocked off  the pedestal, trying to get back on it, knocked  

off the pedestal. And I had a very weak sense of  self. So I was just trying to do whatever people  

wanted me to do to be really cool and accepted.  And that was very like chaotic for me as well.

Ehren Dorsey, in a sentence, how would you  describe grooming? Um, for me, I think about  

grooming in terms of the tactics that are used  by someone to convince people, not just children,  

but adults as well, how to possibly do things  that might not be in their best interest,  

how to desensitize people to ideas so that  they they comply and do something that um you  

might want them to do. That's kind of how I would  describe grooming. I know there might be people  

who are like really specific about definitions.  I have friends who are like that and I understand  

I might be stretching the term a little bit, but  it's just because for me I feel like it's really  

interesting to find the patterns in things um  where maybe one label over here also actually  

does kind of apply over here as well and examining  that. Yeah, you have a real strength for patterns,  

analogies. One of my favorites that might help  people to understand the grooming idea is you talk  

about everybody having an orange. What is that?  Um yes. So the idea, one reason this idea came  

to me is because I became very aware of the fact  that I considered very few things inside of myself  

valuable. And there was a moment after a very  serious situation that happened to me where I kind  

of looked up and I felt just very empty inside.  And I really wasn't sure why. And then I started  

thinking about that like the why of why I felt so  empty. And I realized I had actually been giving  

away a lot of myself emotionally, physically. Um,  I've never been the type of person to really give  

away assets, but that's another thing that someone  might give away. And I realized that while I  

hadn't considered these things valuable, someone  else had. And they had done a really good job of  

making sure that I didn't realize that because  then I would stop giving it away for free. And  

they had further encouraged the narrative that  these things weren't weren't valuable as well.  

So the analogy that kind of came to me was the  idea of an orange. If you have an orange and you  

have the orange and I want to get that orange from  you, how would I get that orange from you? Because  

I think a lot of times people think of dangerous  people as something very obvious and overt. So,  

you know, if someone's dangerous, they're  going to come up and they're going to hold  

a gun and they're going to like ask me for my  purse or, you know, they're going to literally  

ask me for the thing. It's going to be  very obvious if I'm getting exploited,  

but it's it's not because really good con artists  and people who are very good at manipulating,  

they understand that the most effective way  of getting things from people is not to be  

your enemy, it's to be your friend. And even  deeper than a friend, it's to be your lover. Um,  

if they can and if that applies. So to get the  orange from someone, there's lots of different  

tactics that can be used, but really examining how  you might get an orange from someone as a friend,  

as a lover, as a business salesman. There's a lot  of different areas where this analogy can kind of  

um apply. But I could tell you lots of stories  about people who have given their oranges away  

for free so that you think it's normal and you  you almost want to be a part of that movement  

and that experience. I could convince you that  there's a huge reward waiting for you on the  

other side if you give me the orange, whether it's  access to me, whatever that reward might be. Um,  

and then also I can obviously tell you like I  love you a lot. Sort of this guilt tripping. If  

you loved me back, you would do this for me. So  why are you not doing this for me? And it causes  

you to kind of question your own character. And  if you don't have a strong sense of what love is  

or what your own expectations for other people are  or should be, you're you're up for grabs really.  

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. They come in under the  radar often and it's tricky. As you pointed out,  

people do seem to think, and I was in this camp  for a long time, that if there were a psychopath  

in your life, you would just know. Um, but in  fact, the good ones, they can slip it right by  

you. Um, this the story of the orange thing I  find particularly interesting, too. I've I've  

seen this in play, and I think we forget. Yeah.  What would you like to say? Well, my question to  

you back is like, why did you think that you would  just know? Like what obvious things did you think  

would be present? Well, I probably had an idea  from things like movies. Mhm. That it was just  

that a psychopath is is someone who's just, you  know, obviously dangerous and um and beyond that.

I'm not good to think about it. And that's  what I like trying to do is like we don't  

oftentimes examine our own beliefs. It's  not a bad thing. I'm not shaming anyone,  

but like a lot of what my YouTube channel's  born out of is this idea of like, okay,  

I actually have like all these beliefs. And I've  never really like sat down and a lot of them  

are based on assumptions, not necessarily like  really knowing the why of why I believe it. So,  

um, for people because you're not the only one who  thinks that it is. is like, you know, that's one  

reason I I want to make like a workbook for people  is because then you can just really sit there and  

like ask yourself those types of questions. Yeah.  And it's and it's so important and and we're going  

to get more into how that also helps in the future  um and protecting yourself and understanding your  

own vulnerabilities. But let's let's go back to  the storytelling of someone who is predatory.  

How does the storytelling work? You mentioned  stories like telling about people who give away  

their oranges for free. Mhm. So, to really get  into the storyteller techniques, I would like to  

use my own story. It's a bit of a longer answer,  but I really would like to kind of go into uh my  

childhood and then how I ultimately met Billy as  a minor because I think going into the details of  

my life, not everybody is susceptible to the  same um story. Like, not everybody wants the  

same fantasy. Not everybody has the same kind of  like fantasy handicaps. So, I can tell people mine  

um which a lot of people oftenimes relate to, but  it might not be everyone's, but I just think it  

might show it a little bit clearer if that  works. Yeah. Cool. So, um and feel free to  

like interrupt with questions along the way, but  I was born into a family where my parents were  

actually supposed to be missionaries in Japan.  And so I had a very sheltered childhood. Um,  

but when I was in the fourth grade, my mom found  out that my dad was addicted to porn and that was  

very upsetting for her. I don't know if that would  have been upsetting for everyone, but it was for  

her. And they ultimately uh got divorced instead.  And this caused a pretty drastic shift in my life  

because what happened was first of all we saw my  dad a lot less after that after the divorce but  

also the roles of us as kids changed and part  of that was cuz my mom went back to work as a  

single mom. So I had to become a child parent for  my younger siblings. So that was a new role for  

me in the fourth grade that was brought into my  life. But also because of different things that my  

mom struggles with in terms of I'll just call it  emotional immaturity. She needed new things from  

my sister and I. We had new purposes for her.  Um she struggles with regulating herself. And  

so my sister and I kind of became her emotional  confidant of sorts. And that was a new role that  

I I never really had to do that before. But I  started de becoming other centered because of  

that. And I think a lot of the people who watch my  videos are also kind of other centered and other  

focused. So I stopped being as self-focused on  myself and it became more about her all the time,  

especially cuz my dad wasn't around. So this was a  story, this is an example of a story that started  

being told to me. Granted, it was more um it was  being told more passively, but the narrative now  

is that I have these roles to fulfill for my  siblings and my mom. Um and then the other new  

role that was kind of presented to me in my my  childhood was that I was the problem child. So,  

my sister was my mom's best friend. I was the  problem child. Either way, both of us were like  

hyperfocused on. I kind of uh in my head see  it as like the eye of Sauron and you're just  

like under the gaze of it a little bit, you know.  Um but that that really when people want to know  

about like why am I attracted to certain types  of fantasies and why am I attracted to certain  

types of stories? A lot of it does come back to  your childhood. Yes. But this so this definitely  

set the tone for a lot of things with myself  and how I thought about my role, my purpose,  

my um how I got love. But after childhood, it's  not just your childhood. There's also TV and  

movies. That's where you learn about love and you  learn about roles. And then ultimately later on,  

it's also your relationship with peers and your  romantic relationships. I would also say porn is  

a type of storytelling um that people don't always  examine. So this was the initial storytelling that  

was going on in my life that started to make me  vulnerable to a predator and to predatory people  

not just as a child but also into adulthood which  is what I really want people to understand. If a  

child can be vulnerable in these types of ways,  being other centered, thinking they're a problem,  

thinking things about them are innately  flawed, you continue to carry those beliefs  

into adulthood. They don't just go away if you  don't examine them. And this is why adults can be  

groomed as well for insidious purposes. So, that  was going on. and that narrative was constantly  

around me and my self-esteem obviously tanked.  I also think that this was where secretiveness  

started in my life that I think a lot of people  also struggle with but maybe don't know that they  

do. And when I when I talk about that, what I mean  is that I no longer was safe to like be myself.  

When I was my natural self as a person, my mom got  upset. When I was who I naturally was as a person,  

fights happened. When I was who I naturally was  as a person, I got demeaned and belittled. So,  

I now am learning to withhold who I naturally am  to shift who I naturally am as a person in front  

of her. And it that is a type of secretiveness  that people might not know that they're walking  

around doing. Like there are times and places  to you don't just walk around giving everyone  

your 100% authentic self. I understand that. But  sometimes people because of these experiences in  

childhood or adulthood feel like they can never  fully be themselves ever. Um and overcoming that  

is really important. I think that aside from the  secretiveness, um I also stopped exploring myself  

and the things that I enjoy because I started  just assuming everything about this was defaulty,  

broken, damaged, worthless. So, I had some hobbies  as a child, but there definitely was a lack of  

like like if the inner part of you is a garden  that you're growing. I I can see now in hindsight  

how m how far behind my peers I was. They were all  growing their gardens, cultivating their interest,  

cultivating their inner self because they feel  good about who they are. That's really getting  

grown. And I was not doing that in the same way.  I wasn't connecting with myself in the same way.  

If anything, I was trying to disconnect a lot  from myself. And that became very normal. Um,  

I feel like it's almost like a kind of cognitive  dissonance, but it's it's deeper than that. It's  

almost like a dissonance in your nature. And I  don't know if there's like a a word for for that.  

Um, and so it's just very interesting because a  lot of these things that went on in my childhood  

happened with the predator that I met when I was  13. So I was obviously in a lot of emotional pain.  

Um, the last thing I did want to touch on for what  my mom did that normalized me and primed me for a  

predator and kind of someone exploitive is I don't  think people understand sometimes that people  

what I've noticed is the people in my life I've  encountered who are more emotionally immature,  

they kind of only really have like one mode  of operating between children and adults.  

they they don't really understand that there's  um a layer between what is inappropriate and  

appropriate for a child. Like what you would say  to an adult, you wouldn't necessarily like say  

to a child. I've seen that. But the other  thing I see that they do in in this issue  

of not being able to differentiate children and  adults is the same mechanisms for how they kind  

of like abuse adults is also what they do with  kids. And what I'm trying to get at is their  

need to rearrange people. So my mom needed  to rearrange me, rearrange my personality,  

like internally rearrange me so that she could  feel regulated and feel okay. And that's what  

a lot of exploitive people do. If you think  about yourself as like a house, you know,  

someone who's more manipulative or emotionally  immature might walk into that house inside of  

you and you have it decorated a certain way.  You have your interests, you have your beliefs,  

you have your goals and your set personality and  they walk in and they go, "No, this does not work  

for me. We need to move that over here. We need to  move this over here." they just start rearranging  

you because they it's almost like a type of  emotional rigidity that they can't tolerate those  

differences that make them unhappy or in Billy's  case he needed to rearrange me so that I would be  

the type of girl pornstar girl that he needed me  to be. But either way, this phenomenon of being  

rearranged became very normal to me. First because  of my mom and then later because of a predator.  

And that's another really kind of like unhealthy  habit I had going into life later as well is I  

just expected people to want to rearrange me.  That was just a part of dating. That was a part of  

being in relationships is someone telling me what  I needed to change and who I needed to be so that  

they could be happy. Um, and Erin, you're talking  about encounters with a man named Billy. For to  

clarify, that man was a pedophile, had already  been to prison and then found you. Yes. So,  

um I had all this going on with my mom and because  I was in a lot of emotional pain, really unhappy,  

I went on my flip phone and there were free trials  for chat rooms on there and I met Billy in this  

chat room. We ended up exchanging phone numbers uh  when I was 13 and we ultimately ended up talking  

for 3 years and Billy my experience with my mom  kind of was my initial storytelling phase. Billy  

really was my experience in learning about sex and  sex related to love and how I should think about  

myself sexually as a woman. So that's almost like  the next layer of myself that formed. I'd never  

had a boyfriend before him. I'd never kissed. I'd  never held anybody's hand or anything like that.  

And with him, I feel like it basically skipped  ahead 15 steps to where um pretty soon after  

starting to talk to him, he told me a website to  go to to watch um some pretty graphic porn. And  

then after I watched it, it was very disturbing  to me. It made me cry. And uh he told me that that  

meant that something was wrong with me because  normal straight girls liked all this type of  

material no matter what was in it. and I believed  him because I again I already believe something's  

wrong with me. Um I do think Billy was sort of my  first experience in like addiction as well. If you  

look at the nature of addiction, it's basically  pain driving you towards a decision. Um that's how  

I see it. Any person who's an addict and has  struggled with any sort of addiction at all,  

you're in pain. You have no tools for how to deal  with that pain. And so the only thing you really  

do is just let it drive you towards finding  anything that will make it better. And Billy,  

I think, was my first like kind of addict  experience because I was in pain and I found him.

Were you going to continue with the story context  for for this name, Billy? Yeah. I wasn't sure  

whether to keep going or not. So, okay. Yeah. Um,  so now I am struggling with a plethora of things.  

I'm essentially like hollowed out as a person. I  don't really have a strong sense of self because  

of my mom and now also him continuing to uh  demoralize me, tell me, you know, how I'm weird as  

a a girl sexually. I'm learning from him that in  order I'm learning from him um and from the porn  

that in order to be enough as a woman, I should  not have like emotional needs and I should be  

down for anything. Kind of the porn star trope and  the cool girl trope kind of like mixed together.  

Um the porn star trope in my opinion is something  that it's one of the strongest tropes that's kind  

of like held me hostage throughout my life. It's  one that I've tried to identify with and be, but  

very unsuccessfully. Um, porn star trope doesn't  have like biological issues or deficiencies and  

I've always had GI issues and stuff like that.  So, it's been very stressful for me like that  

I might not be able to provide enough sex in a  relationship because of my own limitations. And  

if I can't give the man what he needs, then  he has the right to cheat on me. Just very  

illogical things that are kind of removed from  reality. Um, after talking to Billy for 3 years,  

I did end up going driving down to Texas to meet  him. My mom kicked me out when I was 16. I moved  

in with my dad and eventually got my driver's  license. And once I had a car, I uh did decide  

to go down and meet him. And I really thought that  this was love. You know, after everything I'd been  

through with him, uh, as tumultuous as it had  been, he would make me feel dirty. He would make  

me feel bad about myself. if I would stop talking  to him, then I would get lonely. I would have no  

tools for how to deal with the pain, just like a  typical addict. So, I go back to him um because  

I'm awkward and I don't really know how to engage  with the boys around me in my life and I'm still  

pretty sheltered. Um and it seems that this is  part of the dynamic that these sort of people try  

to set up too. I mean, I've heard the phrase um  from the woman who was married to the Wolf of Wall  

Street, Nadine Makaluso, she said something like  uh your tormentor becomes your soother. So they  

they try to they try to, you know, knock you into  this cycle where you're falling down and then you  

need to keep reaching back to them to get picked  back up. Yes. And I think that's why um I have a  

video that kind of talks about how to build your  own plum line. And when I talk about a plum line,  

it's basically like having something to measure  everything against to know whether it's straight  

and true and what you're actually looking for to  what you originally wanted before you got into  

the fog of this mess that maybe you're in. Um,  but anyway, I think it's so important to build  

your own plum line because that's you learning  to soo yourself. That's you learning to turn  

to yourself for answers to reeregulate because  our habit is to turn to the other person. You  

can't feel okay until they've given you an answer  with which half the time is a lie, you know? So,  

but you're you're desperate for anything because  you have no tools. I really compare it to like  

being handicapped. Everything is weakened inside  of you. Like think about people who've been in a  

car accident or something, you know, and there's  some sort of injury that happens where you have  

to go to physical therapy to restrengthen that  body part. You have serious I I had seriously  

neglected myself. I only used other people to  find a sense of self. I used other people as  

a hobby. I used other people to regulate myself.  I mean, that's a lot of seriously weakened inner  

muscles that need to be rebuilt. And that does  not happen overnight. Um, and a journal is a  

really powerful way of of figuring out how to get  back to home base and making yourself home base,  

not them basically. Yeah, this is another  one of of your excellent um metaphors,  

this this car accident idea. And I think you know  an encounter with a predator and it it is it is  

like a physical issue in a lot of ways. Um, and  you've talked about some different strategies,  

things that people can look into when they are  basically rehabbing all of those injuries. Um,  

I've I've actually have I've jotted a few of  these down because I thought they were worth  

discussing. One is oversharing and and we can come  back to your story, I think, but maybe this is a  

good point to sort of take the offramp and we'll  come back. So, one is oversharing. Yeah. Um, yes,  

oversharing I think was super normal to me. This  might sound funny. I mean, it is kind of funny,  

but I remember I was seeing a therapist and um I  didn't really talk to there was another way I was  

secretive in my addiction. I didn't really talk to  people about my dating experiences cuz I figured  

they were kind of unhealthy and so I just got used  to not really talking to people about them. But I  

went into therapy one day and I'd had a really bad  first date because I did this and the guy was like  

he did not know what to do. So, I was talking to  my therapist about that and she was like, "No,  

no, no, no, no." And I I literally did not know. I  know that probably sounds crazy. I didn't know. I  

I mean, I'm not on other dates with other people,  you know what I mean? Like, I don't freaking know  

like how they do it out there in the wild. So,  when she was just like horrified, she was just  

like, "No." Oh, and one of the things she kept  emphasizing is you want them to get to know you  

as you, not your trauma, not like what you feel  like is baggage, you know, like yes, those things  

are there and eventually you can share them once  you know they're safe. Um, but initially like just  

it's you, you know, and I remember thinking like  what what else am I going to talk about? Okay. Um,  

that's all I really had though. So, like that's  stressful. Um, and that's the other thing I try  

to talk to when I meet fellow what I call like  survival survivor sisters, but this applies  

for men too. Like if you're in the habit of  oversharing or essentially trauma bonding,  

you know, there's this idea I think of like, oh,  small talk is stupid. And like I don't know, I'm  

above small talk. I don't do small talk. I don't  do shallow talk. Like there's there's no purpose  

for that. And it's not true. And I think to have  this idea in your mind that only having deep  

conversations with strangers and deeper than that,  but like giving all these really important parts  

of your story to a stranger. I mean, I'm sure all  of us have done that. And then even with a friend,  

a possible future friend, it doesn't always work  out. So it feels really shitty after you've like  

given that part of yourself to someone and then  for whatever reason like you don't end up becoming  

friends or you don't end up dating, you know,  it's it's something for later. So there actually  

is a purpose for small talk. One of the which is  just safety, but also like you should learn how to  

have boring conversations with people. They're  not actually boring, but do you know how to be  

less stimulated in conversation? Do you know how  to let people just kind of talk about their day?  

And do you know how to actually be genuinely  interested in those things? Or are you only  

interested in their life when there's something  juicy happening that kind of gives you a little  

bit of a dopamine hit, too? Do you know how to  be there with people when life is kind of mundane  

and less interesting than an Instagram reel and  actually like do that with them and do those types  

of dialogues with them? It's funny to me to hear  you say this because I assume this first date you  

had been already a high fashion model. So to say  that that comparing your life as inferior to an  

Instagram reel, it seems ironic since, you know,  your life had been in in photos and things like  

that. Yeah. And that's one of those things that I  actually don't tell people about either when I'm  

on dates because um I started getting treated like  so differently. I don't want to be making too many  

complex points all over the place. But the other  thing people do without meaning to is we kind of  

tropify each other a little bit without meaning  to. So, like pedestal roles, which I can get into  

the storyteller techniques now. Um, but pedestal  roles are something that I think a lot of us are  

becoming desensitized to and are like doing  with celebrities doing um sometimes with each  

other. Like when I tell people I have a YouTube  channel, they're just like, "Oh, wow." You know,  

and it doesn't even have that many followers. But  when I modeled, I absolutely was getting put on a  

pedestal by people, even my own family, and they  stopped treating me like a person. They didn't  

mean to, but it's almost like when you find out  somebody has cancer and you're just like, "Oh,  

um, you know, you don't It's like you don't know  what to talk to them about now, but they are still  

alive and walking around and they would like  to play Scrabble. You know, they can still play  

Scrabble while they have cancer. And I would like  to play Scrabble while I'm, you know, in magazines  

and doing Calvin Klein photo shoots. Like, I love  Scrabble." So there comes this idea of like, oh,  

these people are like over here and then these  people are like over here. And we kind of create  

like caricatures out of each other sometimes. And  we do this with even the idea of like a narcissist  

and a psychopath, too. We're like, "Oh, they're  like all the way over here and they're all evil."  

And I have had friends who are narcissists, as  crazy as that sounds. Do you know like there are  

I prefer to try to live in nuance now, you know,  like my mom has a cluster B personality disorder.  

What does that relationship look like now? Is it  complicated? Yes. But my for me personally, if  

you just walk around like cutting people off cold  turkey all the time, like all the time, you're not  

necessarily learning how to have like stronger  boundaries. Because I think where you grow  

stronger boundaries is when people are not all  the way in your life. Maybe they're like here, you  

know what I mean? Like pretty far away. That's a  really complex, interesting fence to have to build  

versus just like the cement wall. Everybody goes  behind it. You don't think about them anymore. You  

don't really process it. You can do that and there  are times where you need to do that. But because I  

didn't have good boundaries and I didn't know how  to have good boundaries and because I was putting  

people in all good and all bad categories, there  was really no nuance in my life. And my boundaries  

also reflected that where you were either all  in or all out. you were all good, all bad, evil,  

over glorified, you know, nobody's all good, dude.  Like there's no all good person out there. Um,  

so what qualities you need to ask yourself like  what qualities are deal breakers? What qualities  

are you willing to accept that yeah, maybe they're  kind of painful? And I'm not even talking about  

cluster B anymore. I'm just talking about like a  person like what what are you willing to tolerate  

and like handle and and engage with with other  people that maybe is difficult for you and what  

is like truly kind of a deal breakaker. And you're  getting at the danger of black and white thinking  

too, which is something I've heard you discuss  in your videos. Uh it it makes you vulnerable  

to to someone who is trying to manipulate you  as well. Correct. Yeah. Yes. And I think we're  

all very offended when someone waters us down  to like because splitting can show up in a lot  

of areas. It's actually really crazy like how  much splitting showed up in my life. And again,  

I might be stretching the term a little bit, but I  do Let's clarify. We said black and white thinking  

and now you're saying splitting, which I think can  be more of a medicalized term, aren't they? I for  

people who don't know. Okay. Yeah. Um, black and  white thinking and splitting or whichever one. uh  

is where you are kind of doing that you're making  something all one thing or all another. Wouldn't  

you say that's pretty much how you would it? I  I've heard splitting is more medicalized and that  

it's um it's more common in in people with cluster  B personality disorders, particularly border  

lines, in that um there's an initial infatuation.  You are all good. They're they're obsessed with  

you if you are their if you are their closest  sort of best friend. Now, I'm not a psychologist,  

but their best friend, their lover, something like  that. Yeah. Yeah, but then eventually you will be  

seen as all bad. That is the the splitting of  a relationship with someone with borderline  

personality disorder. And what I find that so that  might be true cuz I don't freaking know. But if  

that is true and that's specific to borderline,  isn't it interesting that we as people with  

non-cluster B personality disorders, I have done  that in my life. Maybe not in the exact same way,  

but I guess I just kind of like trying to see how  we're not all so vastly different. I understand  

some people might feel upset by that. Not  everybody might like that. This is just me. You  

know what I mean? Like these are the things I've  tried to figure out to do for myself um to heal a  

little bit. And I was so afraid, I think, because  of kind of the black and white thinking. I was so  

afraid that if I had if I really looked in the  mirror and I saw any similarities to my mother,  

I would go in this all bad category, you know?  I was terrified of that. That means I'm her.  

Like there was such a lack of nuance in that that  really like handicapped me where I was just like,  

I don't know how to look at any of this stuff  because of course I have similarities to the  

woman. I freaking lived with her for 16 years  of my life. You know what I mean? like yeah but  

um just really trying to to understand like what  are the differences, what are the similarities  

and a lot of it comes down I think to intention  too. I I would see similarities between myself  

and the people I was with who kind of exploited  me and that really freaked me out. But I needed  

to look at that because you pick up a lot of the  unhealthy habits like lying, you know what I mean?  

But you have to lie. I'm not saying it's okay, but  I'm just saying people lie for different reasons.  

So this person over here was lying to exploit me  to weave a web and create a trap. I for example in  

a different way lied to survive to get out of  the relationship to stay safe. So there's the  

behaviors and then there's the intention behind  them. And I think with my black and white thinking  

it's just that I really did not know any other way  to think from being with my mom, from being with  

a lot of people who think like this. And now that  I've found ways to explore nuance and try to live  

in nuance, that's been very healing for me. It's  like a medicine that I needed. And that's that's  

not it hasn't been super hard for me. Um, so I  just think it's kind of I don't know important  

sometimes to to look at those similarities and  realize that you still get to choose who you are  

when you wake up every single morning. You get to  choose what you do with yourself, the choices that  

you make. We're all working on becoming better  people. We're all starting from different places,  

but not everybody's getting up and trying to go  on that journey with themselves. So, it's very  

important to have to have grace with yourself  and all the different quirky, frustrating,  

just really specific like issues you can have  going on internally sometimes. And a lot of  

survivors have a lot of shame that makes them not  want to talk about any of the stuff that they've  

done in their addiction. That's a huge thing that  I've seen meeting different survivors. We tell  

each other because we're like, "You're going to  get it. You're not going to judge me. You've done  

something similar." You know, you kind of trust  that that person can handle the information,  

especially when you relapse, when you go back. You  know, a lot of people when I got away from Billy,  

just went on for three years, drove down to Texas,  met him, he basically held me hostage in his house  

for an entire weekend. I didn't know if I was  getting home. I fawned the crap out of that  

situation. And it's funny cuz some people would be  like, "You should have kicked and screamed." And  

I'm like, "No, I'm pretty sure that's how I would  have died." So, no. Um, but even after that, you  

know, there's this hope with me, with my family,  there's this hope that it will never happen again.  

Not just the rape, but me engaging with a person  predatory and abusive like that. There's the the  

desperate hope that it won't happen again. And  the thing is, it probably will, and it we have  

to learn through mistakes, and that's very hard  for our friends and family to go through with us.  

And I totally understand that. But there is such  a an aspect of of secretiveness in this stuff for  

lots of different reasons. And one of those is  because you pick up these crazy habits. You're  

relapsing all the time. It's a messy journey of  recovery. So yeah. Yeah. You're reminding me of  

uh conversations I've had with people who are in  the cult space, people who are culty programmers  

or people who are cult defectors, and they talk  about how how changed they are by the situation as  

well. Um something similar. So, we we've branched  off quite a ways um from from your initial story,  

but we've got we've got pieces of it as we've as  we've gone on. We've got sort of this event with  

Billy when you're 16, and we branched off to talk  about how that's like a car accident. Some of the  

the muscles you need to rebuild. Talked about  oversharing. Yeah. How about self- neglect? It  

seems you're already starting to touch on that  one a little bit. That can show up in so many  

different ways. I mean, mine would even happen in  how I ate. Like, if I was really busy or stressed,  

I was just the last priority in everything. And  I see that with a lot of my friends who are moms.  

The kids get fed, the laundry gets done, the  house looks beautiful, and they have literally  

not eaten all day because everything else is a  priority and not them. Um it can show up in a  

lot of different areas but food is always really  interesting to me because it's one of the most  

basic necessities that we need and you know if you  can't even feed yourself properly what area other  

areas are you neglecting yourself in. I also think  just making yourself a priority in terms of like  

I said rebuilding yourself. Part of rebuilding  yourself and and the idea of self- neglect is  

like I would only let myself be interested in what  the other person was interested in because a few  

times when I told people things that I enjoyed  or liked. I was that was kind of um diminished.  

I was told it was stupid. You know what I mean?  Um I dated really like hyper intellectual people.  

So if I wanted to watch a romcom, you know, that  was that was just insane. Um, so I think the self-  

neglect also came in in terms of like actually  letting myself live in my interests, enjoy the  

things that I like enjoying, not just doing the  things that they enjoy and trying to be their like  

mirror back kind of. And then sex, I think, is a  really important area. I can't speak for men, but  

I know for women, um, it's a little controversial,  but I just find it very interesting that the ways  

I was indoctrinated to be sexually as a woman by  a predator. I see a lot of women kind of having  

the same habits now because of porn. And I think  just dating culture in general. I'm not saying you  

can't have you can have whatever sex drive you  want as a woman. It's about how we prioritize  

oursel in the relationship. um in this in this  idea of self- neglect. Like if you're sick,  

if you literally physically don't are not able  to or do not want to engage in these things  

and then you're making yourself do it anyway,  that that's self- neglect for sure. Yeah. And  

it touches on another thing that you've listed  too, which is a fawning sort of response. So  

there's not trusting your opinions. What's the  significance of that as a muscle to rebuild?  

Um, well, if you can't trust your own opinions,  how are you going to get out of the relationship  

when it gets really bad? How are you going to  believe that he shouldn't hit you when he always  

has a because there is always always a because you  one of the part I have like six or seven different  

things that your plum line should consist of if  you're trying to like journal for yourself. Um,  

first of all, the plum line is done alone.  You're not doing this with them. Like,  

that literally defeats the purpose. You're not  going to like ask them if they're a liar. You're  

not going to ask a liar if they're a liar.  You're not doing that. You're going to keep  

notes for yourself to form an opinion slowly over  time if you think this person is a liar or not.  

And there's even videos I've watched um by CIA  people who are like, "We have to do this in the  

field when we're like an undercover agent. They  like have one guy said he kept um marbles in a jar  

because they have to stay grounded. You start to  care about these people that you're trying to get  

information from. We're human. You know, you're in  the fog." So, um, yeah, just just to clarify that,  

I remember your video on that and you you were  setting um it was an interview with Andrew Bamonte  

and Lisa Bill and Andrew was talking about how  some field agents keep a bag of marbles and two  

jars for when they think that the person is being  honest or dishonest in their interactions. So,  

because you can get confused, but at least you can  physically see this reminder. Oh, that's that's a  

lot. Yes. And so, you can do that journaling, too.  I literally do this. I call it my green and red  

pebbles. That's what I call it. And I anytime  there's a red pebble, I note it. I email it to  

myself. And then anytime there's a green pebble,  I note it to myself. And I just see over time, you  

know, what's growing. But this is how you start  to form your own opinion. I actually think forming  

a sense of self and forming learning how to form  your own opinions is like the most difficult thing  

for us. Forming your own opinion is so scary and I  understand that it actually takes courage. I have  

felt that fear because the fear is what if I what  if I actually form the wrong opinion and then I  

lose this person who's so special even though he  cheats on me and even though he puts me down all  

the time, he is so special to me. He is and he  genuinely is. So, you feel like you're about to  

lose like a demigod in your life cuz that's what  you turned this person into. That's terrifying.  

You feel like you're jumping off a ledge with no  parachute, you know? So, the marble thing or the  

green and red pebble thing is really important. Um  the other thing um with the plum line that could  

be really helpful for people is to notate which  events you're keeping secret in the relationship  

because first of all you'll start taking secret  from others. Yeah. Your family and friends. Oh  

okay. So if you start seeing because you'll lie  to yourself dude you will to first of all you'll  

forget like everything. So this is almost like the  when you go into a cave and there's like a rope  

this is your rope dude to get back out. Um, so you  need to first of all just notate the events, but  

when you really start seeing like how much you're  keeping a secret from your friends and family.  

You can't lie to yourself and it's truly shocking.  But this whole list is very helpful later because  

there will come a time when you've you've endured  so much that you do talk you finally do talk to  

your trusted friends and family about it, whoever  that is. And when you do, you need to actually be  

able to remember the things that have happened  to discuss it with them. And it act it's I've  

had this happen where I want to talk to them  about it and I'm all over the place because it's  

all disappeared. And I'm like I know that there's  things that happened in the beginning but I can't  

really remember what they were and it it just kind  of becomes all over the place and you can't really  

get that feedback that you need. So the list helps  for several different reasons because of that. And  

usually the stuff you're keeping secret, that's  the stuff they're going to want to know about,  

that you're going to want to talk to them about.  So keeping that list um is really helpful. And  

then also with the feedback that you receive from  people, which is another piece of the plum line,  

is there a pattern to the feedback? I actually  have a rule of three with myself. If I go to three  

different people and they all tell me the same  thing, I actually have created a rule for myself  

where I'm like, I have to trust them by default  now. Like I trust them and I these aren't random  

people on the street that I'm asking. These are  lifelong friends that I've had. Um so if three  

people all say the same thing to me about an event  or something that happened, even if I disagree,  

I go with them now because there have been enough  times where I was so wrong. And there's also been  

times where I ignored my rule of three and it  it ended up being what was the truth later.  

So I've I've been delusional enough in my life  that I now know what it feels like to rely on  

other people cuz I think the most important thing  for people to understand is for me at least I've  

never gotten out of a situation solely on my own  ever. I either had these tools that helped me or  

people that helped me. It was never just me as an  indoctrinated person, you know, just like fully  

getting out and staying away on my own. Yeah.  Yeah, I would I would agree. And um that's one  

reason that a predatory person will try to isolate  you from friends as well. But it's it's one of  

those things. It's so subtle. You know, I I talked  to a woman recently whose mother was in the CIA  

and she said, "Oh, I'd never get into a cult or  something because I would know like there's this  

whole list like they're going to try to isolate  you from your friends and family." And the nuance  

there is that a good predator is going to make  you think it's your idea. It's not like they're  

going to just one day say like, "I'm deleting  your family's phone numbers." Yeah. No, that's  

the best way you can do it. And also, I think the  minute you say something will never happen to me,  

that is literally a vulnerability. The minute  you think that you are for sure exempt from being  

groomed, from being manipulated, um from being  taken advantage of, you're now very vulnerable  

to that happening cuz you're not even watching.  Like if you have a a like a piece of armor on and  

there's a hole like right there and you're like  there's no hole, you're not even watching it now,  

dude. You're not even monitoring that area, you  know? That's like good. Yeah. This is another  

one of your metaphors, Aaron. Um what what is  all this um with the metaphor for you? Does it  

come from something you know some someone around  you who's taught you this or an influence or you  

just like metaphors? I think I think very visually  like really I actually see this stuff in my head  

um when I'm talking about it and I think just  the visual aspect of it that's just how my brain  

works. It sees patterns and it it paints pictures.  So, so when when you think about a concept in  

dealing with someone who's predatory, it doesn't  come out as as words in your head necessarily.  

It's it's images of these things and then you  are trying to express that to your audience  

in words. Never really had to think about how it  happens before. It's just so magical and you know,  

so much talent. Uh yeah, I don't know. It's it's  like I see the patterns and then my brain just  

goes it's just like this thing and then I see the  picture. It's it's weird but um yeah it's able to  

pull up stuff. Yeah. I think that's kind of how  it happens. Yeah. I hope it's helpful though. I  

mean when you really think about it our we as  people come from storytelling and storytellers  

and I think that's one reason these tactics uh are  so powerful. And I just realized that I still had  

not gotten to the storyteller techniques which I  need to. Um that's okay. But yeah, we come from  

stories and that's how we used to connect with  people and it's still how we connect with people.  

So it is I think it's a way that you can really  change lives through stories. I think it's one  

reason like when I tell my story and use my story  as the piece to kind of like connect all of it,  

it's a little bit more powerful. Um there's  lots of different ways that stories can impact  

us positively and negatively. And I think it's  just because our brain that's like a food for  

uh our brain. So just be careful like which food  you're ingesting cuz like not all food literal  

food is good for us and not all stories are good  for us either. And the other thing people I don't  

think are aware of is the fact that you can keep  rebrainwashing yourself. So, if you're already  

used to ideas that are not good for you and that  feels normal, and just because something feels  

normal doesn't mean it's actually good for you.  Those are two very separate things that people  

just kind of make the same. Um, but you can if it  if this is your normal, then we kind of look for  

stories that are similar to that because that's  what excites us. That's what makes us feel good.  

That's what feels like home. So I continued to  ingest material whether porn or movies or books or  

experiences that kept reaffirming that narrative  for me and I was constantly re-brainwashing myself  

in that way and you can brainwash yourself. There  are people who have heard my story who were never  

assaulted, never groomed by a person but they  were groomed by the internet. They were groomed  

by movies and they say that they can relate to  my story a lot because of that. So it's not just  

people who can do this to you. Yeah. Absolutely.  Yeah. I've had Rick Allen Ross on the show who's a  

culty programmer and he's talked about how modern  cult recruitment and and the cult brainwashing is  

done through video often. It's it's it's a very  effective tool. It it can be scaled and and it's  

it works. It's crazy. Yeah. to the point about  stories. We we were in your story. We got to age  

16. We took some branches off that highway.  We've come back to these um these different  

muscles to rebuild. I think we've we've done a  good job with that. What happens next in your  

story? Um so after I was involved with Billy  for three years and after the assault happened,  

I really genuinely was like, I'm good. You know  what I mean? Like he's in prison. Thank God I got  

out of that one. And I just started kind of going  through life in this. It really felt like um I was  

on fire inside and I was looking for any sort of  medicine, any sort of experience. I think there  

was um a lot of anger there to where I wanted to  destroy my own life but at the same time I didn't.  

you know that kind of um cognitive dissonance in a  way where you want two things at the same time or  

believe two things at the same time. And so my  life was very chaotic. I kept getting involved  

um with men who I just found a lot of people who  even if they didn't have a literal sex addiction,  

they had a very high sex drive. I guess I'll  just say it like that. and the way that sex  

was the epicenter of the relationship. Obviously,  relationships have sex. Obviously, relationships  

are intimate. There can be love. This is a way of  expressing love. I'm aware of all of that. But it  

was the epicenter of the relationship. And if it  was not there, the relationship absolutely would  

have would have fallen apart if there was a break.  if it didn't happen in the way that they wanted if  

it didn't happen at the frequency that they wanted  it um I don't believe any of those people would  

have stayed and um that was just kind of what I  went through life doing and I was very unhappy and  

I was very lonely and very stressed out in a lot  of my relationships. Um, and then when I was 19,  

I got on a plane and flew to New York and signed  a modeling contract without reading it. And I did  

that for three years. One thing I' I've missed  in that story. So, but we don't just get on  

planes and fly to New York and then find modeling  contracts waiting for us. Yeah. So, did somebody,  

you know, just discover you? I was scouted. Yeah.  in um the area where I live, I was scouted and I  

had a shaved head at the time, so they were like,  "Oh, yeah, crazy." And I was literally a maid and  

they plucked me out of maidhood. Yeah. And uh ABC  News was filming stuff for them at the time. So,  

I had a really crazy start. I Do you know who Ira  Glass is? Yeah. I was sitting next to him on the  

plane. He's talking to me asking me what I'm  doing. I have no I don't listen to podcasts so  

I don't know who he is. So I'm just like whatever  homie. And then we exchanged numbers. We ended up  

becoming friends. Uh so that's how I started out  going to Newark. Then ABC News was like waiting  

for me when I got off the plane. You know to  go into the storyteller techniques a little  

bit through this example. The first part of the  storyteller techniques is that you are cased for  

your vulnerabilities. But then after you're cased  and they figure out what your vulnerabilities are,  

you're presented with a role. And most of the time  it's the special one. The most special one. And in  

the world of modeling, I'm sure it's true for  other creative areas as well, but in the world  

of modeling, you're always the most special one.  As long as you play by the rules, do what you're  

told. Um, I wasn't good at that. So, I fell  off that pedestal a lot. I kind of call that  

a pedestal role. And you're up here and they're  up here because they're obviously super special,  

too. Both of you are like really special. Um,  and you're kind of set up with a flaw sometimes,  

not always. There there's different like pedestal  roles you can have. Sometimes it's like the best  

helper, you know, like you're the the best  caretaker and they're actually the one with  

the flaw and then because you're codependent that  kind of like holds you hostage. They're like this  

helpless child and you can't ever like leave them  because you're like the best caretaker and they  

need you to caretake. So, there's definitely  different types of roles that can come in,  

but when it t it comes time um for them to start  controlling you, they knock you off that that  

pedestal. And that's very painful for you if you  feel like you need to be up there, like you can't  

lose that special title. So, within modeling,  there was a lot of me being like knocked off the  

pedestal, trying to get back on it, knocked off  the pedestal. And I had a very weak sense of self.  

So, I was just trying to do whatever people wanted  me to do to be really cool and accepted and that  

was very like chaotic for me as well. Yeah. Well,  and you you were, you know, a fish out of water,  

too. I've seen the the bit with you with Dan  Harris um from ABC and you know, it's the way  

that the clip that I saw ends is, "Oh, and by  the way, this girl shows up with like $300 in  

her pocket in New York City and thinks she's going  to be okay." And that's that's that's not how it  

works. They filmed me on a bench. They were like,  "We need to do some B-roll. We just could you just  

like sit on this bench?" And I was like, "Oh,  yeah. Okay. Yeah." I just like sat on the bench.  

They they talk about me being really sad and then  you see me sitting on this bench all alone in a  

park and that's like how they used it. I didn't  know how they were going to use it. It was just  

so funny. I was like, "That's why you had me sit  on the bench?" Okay. So, yeah, it was interesting.  

I definitely learned a lot. Yeah. Um that is that  is such a vulnerable situation. And to this idea  

of the roles, it's really important I think that  people understand that when you encounter someone  

like this, they're going to talk you into these  roles. That's what they're trying to do. And the  

role has the flaw built in so that they can knock  you off at will when whenever it's time. And then  

they can they can give it back. We talked about  how the tormentor becomes a soother. they can  

knock you off the pedestal and then they can put  you back because they're the judge. So if you find  

yourself in a role where someone is distributing  criticism and praise and you start to sense this,  

it's very important to watch out for the roles  to not accept the roles. What else? Um yeah,  

they want to become first of all, if you don't let  them become the narrator, they don't stick around.  

So you also have to be okay with being discarded.  Like I that was terrifying for me. And I actually  

remember the period of time where I remember  the first time I got discarded and I literally  

did like a little dance on my couch because I  was able to see that like what I lost wasn't  

anything valuable and it actually they showed me  who they were. So I was able to flip my logic and  

not be afraid of that thing and actually kind  of like celebrate it a little bit. Um, so being  

okay with being discarded is absolutely a part of  this because when you don't let them become the  

narrator of your life and when you also because  they they really do want to be considered the most  

special pretty early on, they like need that a lot  of times. So when you're like, I don't know how I  

feel about you yet. I'm still trying to figure it  out. I go kind of slow. You know, when you're not  

just like giving them that answer, a most of the  time they they leave. Um, so that's just kind of  

a piece of it. Um, yeah. Yeah. I I would add that  in the situation that most comes to mind for me,  

I had cognitive dissonance. I didn't know what  exactly the deal was with this person because I'd  

just been in the throws for so long. And it was  when the discard was so blatant that I realized,  

oh, something's very wrong with him. Something is  strange here. And then I went to a friend who's a  

doctor and um and she had been suspicious of him  for a while. She'd actually she had diagnosed him  

effectively and I told her, "I think something's  way off here." Yeah. And she and she said,  

"I didn't want to alienate you, but you know, this  this is what's going on with this guy and stuff."  

And it was it was so eye opening at that ending.  I I do find it interesting like I never know what  

to want from therapists with that because we do  need to learn to reach our own conclusions on our  

own and it's not their job to like you know but  sometimes I'm just like dang you should have keyed  

me in a little bit but would I have believed it?  I don't know. So that's very true. I also think  

um I don't know if you experienced this with this  person, but the idea like I kind of referenced  

earlier of like them wanting to rearrange you or  you know like there's very early on usually it  

kind of goes in with the brokenness a little bit  but this idea of like nitpicking kind of and what  

could almost be called like a drip campaign  of tiny comments of things like that they're  

already showing sort of a lack of tolerance with  certain aspects of you and that's important to  

pay attention to. Yes. In in my situation,  the nitpicking was was by design. This this  

man put himself in a teacher mentor role with  everyone around him. He has he has an excellent  

skill set and so it allowed him to be constantly  distributing criticism and praise to everyone and  

to be the authority. And then he would isolate  people. He would he would tell people, "Oh,  

that person, they're not so good. You want to  stay away from them." And then that person,  

"Why doesn't so- and so talks to me?" So that he  would be the filter for everyone on what reality  

was. and use that to tear you down, build you back  up, and the most obedient people would continue to  

thrive in his system. And it worked devastatingly  well. Yeah. I mean, that's the other part of kind  

of the I won't use splitting, but black and white  thinking that we can pick up is to actually become  

an effective flying monkey of sorts, you have  to agree with their perspective, obviously. So  

that's another way that you kind of get especially  if you're in these relationships like long-term,  

you have to be loyal to their mindset. So  whoever's dead to them also has to be dead to  

you. Whoever is completely in their life, you have  to be completely okay with. So that's a it's just  

another way that you learn to kind of think in  black and white terms like that, too. We have to  

be allowed to like have our own relationships with  people and our own opinions about them. Um, and we  

have to let our friends be able to do that, too. I  sometimes see that with survivors. It's just kind  

of an unhealthy habit that's there that we all  need to work on getting rid of where it's like I  

can still be your friend and not completely cut  off this person that you've cut off and I'm not  

like somehow being a bad friend in that way, you  know? Yeah. Yeah. Back to the cult model and one  

thing that people who get out of cults say that if  you want to know if something is or isn't, look at  

whether people can leave without drama. Can they  can they leave but still be, you know, acceptable?  

And in the case of people who have the black  and white thinking or have been trained to the  

black and white thinking or recruited for their  black and white thinking, they're very easy to  

turn for the smear campaign. Oh, he was good. No,  now he's bad. And you need to go on behalf of the  

predator and tell others and get others involved  and make sure that they're isolated and nobody  

get close with that person who's on the outside.  And people think they're doing it for themselves,  

but really the predator is just trying to keep a  hold on their circle. If you want to really test  

someone early on in dating, and I think testing is  more than fine. Like there are some people who are  

like, "We should never test people." I'm like, "I  test them all the time. I don't even care." Like  

whatever. Um, say no. Say no to some stuff and see  how they react. Also, like I've also discovered  

this interesting thing where they list a flaw  about themselves. So, they've said it and then I  

later reiterate it back to them. Well, now because  it's coming out of my mouth and it's a different  

period of time, it's really interesting. But a  lot of times they they act like they didn't say  

it. They argue with you about it. Even if you're  saying literally the thing that they said, it's  

very strange, uh, but interesting. And I've just  like, again, I don't like immediately cut someone  

off because of that, but I've just noticed this  idea of like when they say it, it's okay. when  

you say it, it's no longer okay. A lot of times  when you're talking about a fight that happened  

or something they did that upset you, they'll say  it in that moment and it's fine. Anytime after  

that out of your mouth, not okay. And you get like  all these different weird uh verbal reactions. So,  

yeah. Erin, in your story, so we've got to  we've got to 19 years old. You get on the plane,  

New York City, modeling contract. In in the lens  of this interview, is there more that you want  

to say about that experience or something else  along your story line? No, I don't think so. Um,  

I mean, we're living in a world of like almost  famous people and I definitely had like an almost  

famous experience and it can definitely leave you  wondering like who you are afterwards if you don't  

have a strong sense of self. So, I do feel bad for  anyone nowadays who's who's who is struggling with  

that, maybe was almost famous and then isn't now.  You know, you have to you have to understand your  

worth doesn't come from that stuff anyway. So,  yeah. Yeah. And on that too, you'd hit on the  

roles. One other thing, another phrase that you  used that I thought was great in describing the  

roles is the idea of a royal couple. Yeah. In the  roles, and that's something to watch out for too,  

something that I've seen. And you know, it can  be it can be romantic. It can be the king and the  

queen, but it can also be between friends. It's  it's the king and the prince. Yeah. That sort of  

thing. But you are somehow elevated and yet the  flaw is built in so that you can be bumped out  

of the court or brought back in at will. that but  that royal couple thing really hit home with me.  

Yes. Um I definitely think that's almost like a an  archetype of sorts that we look for in celebrities  

and all this other stuff. I think I also kind of  touched on in that video. For a while I didn't  

want to be like these people in any kind of way.  So I thought I needed to like hate myself to be  

the opposite of them. As maybe strange as that  sounds, but I've come to understand now that like  

I'm not going to lose my sense of self by gaining  confidence. Like confidence is not the issue. Um,  

and you can have a sort of like false humility  through really just hating yourself and then  

thinking that that's what humility is and it's  not. Humility is having confidence, knowing who  

you are, being grounded, but not thinking that  you're better than other people while having that  

like inner work that you've done. Baron, with  the story line, do you want to take it further?  

I don't think so. I mean, the rest of my life I  feel like I've kind of touched on um in lots of  

different ways from lots of different aspects.  I uh I feel like over the last 3 to four years,  

everything that I've been realizing, it's just  been a really cool journey. And I'm sure I get  

comments on my YouTube channel sometimes where  they're like, "This is very neurotic." And I'm  

just like, "Okay, well, yes, because it's a new  skill." You know what I mean? It's not like you  

have to do this all the time forever. It's just  new tools to kind of pick up that after a while  

become more like second nature. I'm not like  grilling people on dates anymore. I actually  

used to do that. I don't do that anymore because  I know myself better and I trust that I'm going to  

be able to keep that person out of my metaphorical  yard because I have these fences built up. You  

know, it's not just cement walls where they're  either all in or all out and I can't see over the  

wall and I can't hear very well and my vision's  limited. Like I have all these different types  

of fences built so I can go into these dates much  more relaxed and grounded. Um, and I don't even  

really date that much, but when I'm engaging with  people, I guess I'll say it that way, whether I'm  

in the workplace or meeting people or wherever  it is, I can go about my day much more relaxed  

because I trust myself to not let people into my  yard too soon, but also just to be observant in  

the ways that I need to be observant and it  doesn't take a lot of effort anymore because  

it has kind of become second nature and I would  love that to happen for other people, too. You're  

talking about building new skills after experience  like this. One thing that I've also heard you talk  

about is that there are lasting effects that if if  you're groomed once, you can be more vulnerable in  

the future. So, could we talk a little bit about  what some of those lasting effects are? I mean,  

we kind of touched on some of them uh just with  the oversharing and the phrasing and fawning and  

stuff, but I think it's also some of the other  things I referenced with being other focused  

so heavily, not having that sense of self,  your dopamine levels. It's really hard when  

you first start kind of detoxing from this stuff  because honestly your dopamine threshold is like  

so high. Life does feel boring for a while and  life does feel a little bit emptier and it it  

can be very hard to sit in that if your window  of tolerance hasn't been built up as well. Um,  

so that can be very stressful and I just I think  uh if you compound that with having discarded  

your social network, having discarded your trusted  people, it really can feel like you're building up  

literally yourself and your life all the way back  up from the ground up. Um, but that's not it's not  

forever. You know, all these things do take time  to build. These gardens take time to grow. These  

relationships take time to grow. you take time  to grow. Um, but I think the key thing is really  

finding things that you enjoy for yourself,  like hobbies. That has really helped me a lot  

in the period of time where I felt maybe empty,  felt like I didn't maybe have as many friends,  

felt like I was more afraid internally. If you  can find just a few hobbies, it doesn't matter  

if anybody else likes them. It doesn't matter  if somebody else thinks it's stupid. It doesn't  

matter. just find some things for yourself to  supplement some of that dopamine and also to  

give yourself a feeling of of self soothing that  can be really important. Um but not easy. So yeah,  

you're connecting a lot of things here on on  the the way that it life does seem a little  

bit grayer after you've been in say the throws of  being close with a narcissistic psychopath where  

everything is drama and everything is the front  row and the best seats and all of that. there's  

that you will probably lose some if not all of  your social network and then your activities  

are going to change. Yeah. So let's let's be like  really granular on that because unfortunately you  

know people commit suicide when they go through  this. Um the work of Dr. Karen Mitchell who I've  

had on the show very clear on this. Um, and I've  talked to people personally anecdotally, you know,  

who will say, you know, whoa, when I got out of  this, I I lost the will to live. You know, I I  

maybe they didn't commit suicide, but they just  woke up every day and they thought, uh, you know,  

I have to keep going. Um, so cultivating hobbies,  cultivating what maybe the friendships that have  

lasted like what did maybe what did that look like  for you? Yeah, it is reconnecting with people.  

um NA we kind of talk about you know it's it's  called doing a a 10th step but you basically are  

sort of apologizing for things and it's funny  because a lot of the the similarities between  

like addiction like to substances and addiction  to a person there can be a lot of similarities and  

relationships do get severed and broken because  of this stuff. So I do think reconciling those  

relationships if possible is really important  and something that you can do. You can do this,  

you know. And then also with the hobbies, I really  had to I had to go back to like middle school  

and think about what did I like doing in middle  school? Like what movies did I like watching? And  

again, doesn't matter if it sounds dumb. I started  re-watching some of those things. You know what I  

mean? Like that's all I had to start with. I  knew that I liked it, so I started there. I  

used to like photography, so I just started taking  pictures in parks, you know. I I really wanted to  

start walking around more. I didn't really like  walking around the city. So, I found parks to  

walk around in instead. Like, I figured out like  why do I not want to do that thing even though  

I kind of want to do that thing and just kind  of figuring out stuff like that. But, I really  

had to go back to my earlier childhood to kind of  restart. Yeah. I I've seen people comment on your  

videos too that they they seem to supplement by  watching videos that there's a there's a lot of  

behavior around watching video after video about  narcissist, narcissistic personality disorder,  

things like that and getting in that cycle. Do you  see that too? Yes. Um yeah, it it is hard because  

like I mean you know it's funny when people are  detoxing off alcohol, they literally have to like  

eat candy and stuff sometimes to supplement the  sugar. Yeah. So, I'm not saying like I've even  

talked about this in my video on like addiction  to abuse. Sometimes you do have to have short-term  

supplements. Just don't make sure those turn into  like your new addiction. Um, but it's it's really  

trying to find the long-term supplements and  replacements. And it can be so overwhelming,  

but I think there's literally videos on like how  to make friends. There's literally videos on like  

where Meetup group, how to find a Meetup group  for something you're interested in. like shift  

the thing that you're doing on the YouTubes. Shift  it to a different thing that has to do with like  

building skills, you know, not just living in this  fear-based world. I I understand it's important  

to process the evil stuff that you just came out  of because it is very confusing. Uh but after a  

certain point, move away from the grave. There is  a grave. You are allowed to visit it. Don't live  

there. You know, move away. Go back to your life.  And you can come back from time to time and feel  

that sorrow and really grieve what has been lost.  But don't stay there. It's not good. Yeah. You  

use the word evil. I want to talk about evil and  the spiritual element that that you see in this.  

But talking about getting in all these videos  is reminding me of a question from one of our  

listeners whose username is at just striving for  that lilnar PhD which I assume means when people  

talk about getting the PhD in NPD you know you get  away and then you you think oh I got to understand  

what I just went through and so you you end up  watching a thousand videos and reading books and  

and all of that and uh this person's question I  I'll sum it up but basically in the storytelling  

this person has had experience with someone using  superstition to sort of control them. Um, have  

you seen anything with superstition manipulation?  Any thoughts on that? No, but I mean that's very  

interesting and I can literally see how that would  work. You know what I mean? Like you're just like,  

"Yeah, of course that would work." They're  using fear to control you. And if you have like  

religious OCD at all or any sort of OCD tendencies  around that area, oh my gosh, that's like lock  

and key match, you know. Um, yeah. No, I haven't  had experience with superstition, but at the same  

time, like fear is such a key component in all of  this stuff. And it is looking for the similarities  

to know that you're not alone. It's not always  about looking for the differences and comparing.  

So I feel that similarity without fully knowing  that person's story. And I again I think that's  

why it's so important to to journal and to write  out for yourselves. Another thing that I have done  

is um false like lies that I believe false truths  that I believe um and a lot of stuff based in  

fear. We don't we don't know tomorrow. So you're  you're already letting a future fantasy control  

you. like future fantasies are very much a thing.  There's past fantasies and future fantasies, lots  

of promises that are made as a future fantasy that  we look forward to, but this was a negative future  

fantasy that was used to control this person. Um,  and you have to realize like it has not come to  

pass. Therefore, it is literally not true because  it has not happened just from that standpoint  

alone. But that's also where you can go to your  trusted people if you have them to talk about  

what you're hearing and to regground yourself  in reality. If you only talk to yourself and the  

person you're always that's going to seem a lot  stronger and a lot more realistic when maybe it's  

not. So don't forget about your relationships.  Yeah. Yeah. And you said grounding yourself in  

reality similar to the superstition. Um, I've seen  uh this person use um conspiracy theories as a way  

to shake people up. And it starts small. It's that  that sports game. It looks like it was rigged or  

somebody was point shaving a little bit and it  becomes bigger and bigger and bigger and they're  

it seems they're trying to break people of their  sense of what's real and testing. Maybe there's  

some feedback. Oh yeah, you think you know who  the antichrist is or something like that. You got  

this thing figured out. Let's see how far we can  get you off the ground. And it goes until it is  

literally talking about the ground and it is about  flat earth and things like that. The person who I  

dealt with, he was sending me links at one point,  you know, boy, you should check this out. What  

do you think? I don't know. Um, so that there's  something there along the lines of superstition.  

What do you think? I just think all of it it's  again so many of these relationships are based  

in fantasy and they want to see if you will join  the fantasy with them whatever that fantasy is.  

So yes, you're being cased. That's an example of  what casing is. I don't know if I fully fleshed  

out that definition, but um the story I always  tell is I went to basically like a conference for  

correctional officers and probation officers  and they told the correctional officers that  

they always had to make sure that their clothes  were ironed before they came in and that wasn't  

um for appearances that was a safety thing  because if their clothes were wrinkly the  

prisoners would know that they were tired and  they would know that they were more vulnerable.  

That's just an example of casing. Another example  of casing is like that person starting out small,  

seeing how you react to things. They're kind of  like a poke. They're poking at you. Do you are you  

offended by the poke? Do you let them poke you?  Do you ask for personal space after they poke you?  

Like, what do you do? And how do you engage back?  Do you have any sense of self-p protection? Do you  

have any sense of your own opinion on anything?  And if they get mad at you, what do you do? Like,  

so you disagree with them, then they get mad.  What do you do when they get mad? Do you bend  

over? Do you know what I mean? Do you just like  fall apart? Um, do you actually continue to stand  

up for yourself? Like there's it's almost like  stages of grief where they try different things  

to see which one maybe works with you. They don't  just try one approach. Um, but that is really  

true how they start out small and then it grows.  Yeah. And also like admitting our vulnerabilities  

to them. We we it makes sense that we do this.  I don't want anyone to be like, "Oh, you know,  

I'm such a dummy or whatever." Like, we're  all looking for comfort and connection and we  

want to vent about ourselves and the pain that we  have, but if you give away too much of, you know,  

your vulnerabilities too early on, you just  need to be aware of the fact that you don't know  

yet who you're giving it to. People, one of the  activities I want to have in my workbook is like,  

how do you measure a stranger? you personally  because a lot of people after two three phone  

conversations they're like not a stranger anymore.  They told me about their childhood. You know what  

I mean? I we connected. They're not a stranger  anymore. And it's like your stories are true.  

No. No. Yeah. No. I'm still unraveling things  that were told to me that were that were just  

fantasy. They were just made up. But I I had taken  so many of them the weight of them at face value  

that I thought, "Oh, okay. This story all checks  out." You know, these people can can build amazing  

facads. They can have families and circles of  friends. And you know, a narcissistic psychopath,  

a a good tell can often be that they have a huge  network of shallow but high status relationships.  

So, it's easy to get just blown away by that.  Mhm. Yeah. That's actually one of the things  

I look at when I'm dating people is do they have  genuine intimate relationships with with anyone,  

their family, their parents, a friend, and also if  they only have like one or two friends, whatever.  

Maybe they're introverted, but what do those  friendships look like? And am I going to meet  

those friends? Like there's a reason why someone  is a stranger for a few months, not a few weeks.  

and we all have to just kind of slow down our  roll. Again, different fences. So, yeah, after  

a month, maybe they're, you know, they're not at  this fence anymore. Now they're at this fence,  

depending on what I've learned. Um, but they're  not all the way in my yard at a month. No, no way.  

You know, they might be a little closer, so I can  learn some more things, but not all the way in my  

yard. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And and these people  are very skilled at at triangulating and stalking  

as well. And the person I dealt with, he works for  a data company. So if he's got your social media  

and he sees you around and he knows some of your  friends and then he can use his company resources,  

you add that all up. Um, and it's it's a very  fast triangulation system. And he also manages  

a website where people put in their address.  you can you can ping what um what city they're  

logging in from and things like that, you know,  and some people have protections against that,  

but it it stacks up very fast to have this  amazing amount of people information on people.  

Yeah. I actually I don't know if I would ever feel  comfortable dating someone who had law enforcement  

connections just because for myself as a survivor,  like I've had to come to terms with the fact that  

like first of all, not everybody's for me and  that's okay. And it doesn't mean there's there  

there's something wrong with them. Just not  everybody's for me. But even deeper than that,  

like what am I looking for? You can have a whole  list of stuff you don't want, but do you actually  

know like what you want and why? And I've had  to kind of humble myself a little bit because I  

used to have a type and it was like this highly  successful blah blah blah, lots of connections,  

whatever. And I'm a little bit more handicapped  now. I don't know if I always will be, but I am  

for now. And if I were to meet someone, I just  think it would be too stressful for me if they had  

like law enforcement connections or like that type  of connection you're describing. I think it would  

just be too stressful and nerve-wracking for me  to be able to like do that. At least at this point  

in my life, because I do get so nervous about  things like that. Yeah, that's so we we touched  

a little bit on spirituality, evil. I know this is  important for you. This is something that comes up  

sometimes in the comments on these interviews. Um,  what do you think about the the spiritual aspect  

of of dealing with people like this? So, um, I  believe in God and I am a Christian. And for me,  

the reason I am religious and the reason I believe  in good and evil is because I've met evil and I  

know that evil is real. And I also believe in  God because there's been many, many miraculous  

experiences that have happened for me getting  out of some of these situations. I mean, truly  

miraculous. And if anyone does want to create a  plum line for themselves, I would really encourage  

prayer because there have been times that I  have prayed for an answer to something and I  

had dreams that revealed things to me that I found  out later were true. I'm just saying don't knock  

the spirit world because it can really help you.  You know, it for me that's that's my belief. Um,  

and prayer can be a really powerful tool. I've  realized things that feel felt truly miraculous  

to realize that got me out of some of my  brainwashing. But evil is absolutely real. And I  

think if there are people who aren't sure if they  believe in evil, maybe they just haven't met it.  

But just because you haven't experienced something  doesn't mean that it's not out there and it's not  

accessible as an experience to have. And I think  that's true for prayer and miracles as well. So  

Erin, is there um is there a self-defense sort of  skill that people can be building? We we've sort  

of touched on that in ways, but just to really  nail it down. Yeah. Um I do think it's really  

important to learn to protect your mind. we are  so focused on the body and learning all these  

jiu-jitsu taekwondo you know girl self-defense  class things um but if you can get the mind then  

you can get the body so really the mind is an even  more powerful thing to get and then this person  

starts giving you all this stuff for free and you  have access to their life and you have access to  

all the other whatever pieces of their life that  you might want access to. So, when you're learning  

about how to protect your mind, first things  first is literally go slower, slow down, and  

see if someone's even okay with you doing that.  Pay attention to how they respond to nos when you  

say no. Pay attention to if they're trying to tell  you who you are instead of asking you who you are.  

pay attention to if they're trying to rearrange  you you or your life without very early on,  

not even like later, but very early on. If they're  trying to rearrange things because there's sort of  

a lack of tolerance for how your life or how you  are. If if you love your life and if you love who  

you are as a person, the other person should  be okay with that, too. And if they're not,  

then maybe they should date someone else. You  know, there's room there's wiggle room for for  

discussion on that. But I'm talking about the  really big important things you need to know in  

order to protect yourself. What are deal breakers?  What are things you're not willing to compromise  

on? You need to have that sort of rope to keep  yourself tethered to to where if you know for a  

fact, no, this is something I am not compromising  on. And someone comes up and they go, "Hey, are  

you willing to compromise on that?" You already  know the answer. If you don't know the answer yet,  

that's a really tricky place to be in. And you're  actually pretty vulnerable because now it's up  

for discussion. This thing that actually might  be really vulnerable or sorry important, this  

very valuable important thing is up for discussion  because you haven't taken the time to figure out,  

hey, is this something I actually do want to maybe  give away or is this something that does need to  

stay in my life? So having that stuff kind of  mapped out internally with yourself is really  

really important. And also for self-defense, you  need to know what your vulnerabilities are. We're  

obviously not going to always know what all  of them are, but really looking internally,  

especially your mental vulnerabilities, like  what area in what areas are you insecure in?  

What areas are you willing to believe are damaged  inside of you or not valuable? Because someone's  

going to pick up on that and really, if they're  predatory or manipulative, they're really going  

to dig in on that. Um, so I would say those are  some good places to start. Excellent. Yeah. Do you  

have a do you have a timeline on the book? Um, the  trickiest part for me right now is first of all,  

I've never published anything. So I literally  don't even know where to do that. Okay. There's  

two activities left where I'm still trying to  I Anyway, there's two activities left that I'm  

still trying to work out like how to do it. So  Okay. So I'll take that as a no. Okay. Well,  

Ehren Dorsey, before I ask my last question,  where should people look for you online? Um,  

I am not many places online. I am mostly on  YouTube and my YouTube name is Ehren's Journal,  

so you can find me there. And the spelling on  that. Uh, E H R E N. Great. We'll put a link to  

that in the description for people to check out.  And Ehren, my my last question is about healthy  

relationships. That's a that's a goal for a lot  of people coming out of an event like we've been  

talking about. What are some things that people  could look for in a healthy relationship? Yeah,  

I think in healthier relationships when I have  learned about what's healthy because I haven't  

had many successful romantic relationships yet.  I've really learned about healthy relationships  

from my friends and I am so grateful to them from  the bottom of my heart for helping me reparent  

myself and almost being like supplemental parent  mentors of sorts that I can look to and watch for  

an example of how to engage with people healthier.  Um, but what I've learned from my friends is that  

love is the biggest word that comes to mind is  acceptance. Um, and honesty and that's done in a  

safe and a healthy way. These are these are these  are key qualities that come along later when you  

know the person and when you've built that trust.  But it's someone who really can accept you when  

you're down, can accept you in your flaws, in  whatever issues that you might have going on.  

Like they want to be on that journey with you. And  there's a there's a safety there with that person  

that you know that people are not going to be  running away and discarding each other and leaving  

uh because you know each other well enough now  that there is there is that safety there and that  

allowance to be a person, to be a human. um that's  about compromise and I would say interdependency,  

not just one person depending on the other and  it's sort of lacking balance in that kind of way,  

but inner in interdependency and I just think  there's just a safety there to be able to be  

yourself. A great note to end on. Ehren, thank  you for sharing these things, for your way of  

communicating to people that we've we've talked  about that's unique and for people who think in  

metaphors and visuals and things so valuable and  for taking the time to do this interview with me  

and I I look forward to hopefully something around  when your book comes out. Thank you so much. Thank  

you to help raise awareness about narcissistic  abuse. Please share this video. It helps a lot.

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