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Gabor Mate: The Childhood Lie That’s Ruining All Of Our Lives. | E193

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Financial stress on the parents

translates into physiological stress in

the children they didn't inherit

anything in terms of a disease they're

just reacting to the environment people

call Dr gabomate the people whisper

legendary thinker and best-selling

author he's highly sought after for his

expertise on addiction stress and

childhood development the evidence

evidence linking mental illness and

childhood adversity is about as strong

as the evidence linking smoking and lung

cancer and the average physician doesn't

hear a word about that it's astonishing

I can give you the example of a Donald

Trump I mean his father was a psychopath

you are the enemy of the people go ahead

for him these were not choices so much

as survival techniques and that's the

mark of a traumatized child a denial of reality

reality

what do I have to understand about your

earliest years to understand you

my grandparents were killed in Auschwitz

and my mother and I barely survived and

then my mother to save my life gives me

to a stranger in the sense I guess that

I'm being rejected and abandoned because

I'm not good enough how did that rear

its ugly head throughout your life in a

number of ways it's the traumas I Define

it is not about what happens to us it's

about what happens inside of us as a

result of what happens to us it's

costing us in terms of our physical

health our relationship our mental

health and so on how does one go about

correcting that it's a multi-layered

before this episode begins I just want

to say a huge thank you to all of our

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further Ado I'm Stephen Butler and this

is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's

listening but if you are then please

keep this yourself [Music]

[Music]

my dear little man

only after many long months do I take it

in hand the pen

so that I may briefly sketch for you the

Unspeakable horrors of those times the

details of which I do not wish you to know

know

those are words that your mother wrote

into her diary in the 1940s during the Holocaust

Holocaust

in April of 1945 three months after the

Soviet Army expelled the Nazis from

Budapest which is where we live so she

was referring to

the previous year and the beginning of

that year late 1944 and early 1945. and

in those diary entries she's addressing

many of them to you directly as a baby

sure to Dairy to me directly

um as if it was like a account of my life

life

addressed to me

you talk so much in in your in all your

books um and much of your work about the

importance of that early context it's

really been I mean the center point of

all the writing that I've read recently

and I know because it's

it's so evident in everything that

you've done that that's been a key your

own early context has been a key

inspiration for why you've taken such a

an interest in these topics what was

your early context what do I have to

understand about your earliest years to

understand you

so it's just a fact about human beings that

that

the template that forms us will affect

how we see the world how we understand

ourselves how we relate to other people

and um the early template is earliest

months even in Europe already in the

womb we're being affected by the

environment but certainly in the early

years when our brain is being formed and

our personality is taking shape

and so that forms our world view now my

worldview was in my sense of self was

shaped by the fact that

at two months of age when I was two

months of age the German Army occupied

Hungary Hungary was the last country in

Eastern Europe where the Jewish

population had not been exterminated and

that was our turn

the day after the German Army marched

into Budapest which was March the 19th

to the 1944 the day after my mother

called the

pediatrician to say would you please

come and see Gabor because he's crying

all the time and the doctor said of

course I'll come but all my Jewish

babies are crying

and so that the fact is that when

mothers are stressed or in pain the

infant feels all that and takes it

personally and it becomes part of their

template for how they view the world

so that was that year that's when that

year began in which my grandparents were

killed in Auschwitz and my father was

away in forced labor and my mother and I

barely survived and

a story I've told many times but

that's where my brain is developing and

that's when I'm forming my sense of myself

myself

and then my mother to save my life gives

me to a stranger and I don't see her for

six weeks the sense I get is that I'm

not wanted then I'm being rejected and

Abandoned and because I'm not good enough

enough that's

that's

how my life began

so your mother gives you away for five

to six weeks yeah in order to sort of

save you from starvation and you know

ghetto that that she was going to right

that's right this is after after your

grandparents were killed in our switch

by yeah the Nazis

um how do you know in hindsight that

that that moment of those six weeks

created that sense of Abandonment in you

I wouldn't say it's just about that one

moment children very much view themselves

themselves

through their interactions with their parents

parents

now first of all I had no father because

he was gone I hadn't hadn't seen him

except very briefly I'm one of the month

old but there was no father in the

picture my mother was grief stricken and

terrorized and full of Woe and worry

about what's going to happen to us and

she's not playful with me she's not

smiling at me very much she's worried

the infant takes everything personally

that's just the nature of the infant as

infants were a narcissist we think it's

all about us so when things are great

hey we're great but my mother is unhappy

it's because she doesn't want me or I

can't make her happy or I'm inadequate

so that separation from my mother

certainly set a template for some of my

relationship interactions with my spouse

decades later but the sense of not being

good enough and and and and being responsible

responsible

that was inculcated in me throughout

that whole first year of life so much so

that in this book The Myth of normal I

actually talk about a an experience with

psychedelic mushrooms at the with the

therapist this was not that long ago

seven years ago maybe um

when I'm at least 70 years old and

I'm in this therapeutic session with the

cytocybin the the medicine

and the therapist and I know that I'm 78

70 years old and I know this is a

therapy session and I know her name and

I know

who I am in the world but at the same

time I'm experiencing myself as a

one-year-old baby and she's my mother

and I start crying tears come down to my

my face and I say I'm so sorry I made

now that was an unconscious memory of my

sense of myself as a one-year-old that I

made my mother's life so difficult

because that's the way the baby

interprets it

so even if your mother loved you which

mine did infinitely not that she always

treated me the best way possible but she

did love me and um

can you imagine what a great Act of Love

even giving me to a stranger in the

street would have been for her you know

but because of her own unhappiness I can

only conclude that I'm not good enough

it's 70 years old having that psilocybin

experience coming to that realization or

having that sort of

um having that response to your

therapist where they take the role of

your mother and you're a one-year-old

how does somebody at 70 years old go

about correcting that that sort of

interpretation you had of that traumatic

early early event

well by bringing up to the conscious level

level

them and I noticed that sense of guilt

or responsibility in me I say oh

that's what it's about so it's it's a meaning

meaning

see traumas I Define it is not about

what happens to us it's about what

happens inside of us as a result of what

happens to us

and so the wound in my in trauma means

wounds the wound in this case is my

sense of deficiency or not being good

enough not being worthy enough once I

realized that oh this has got nothing to

do with anything except this

interpretation that I made with my own

experience all those years ago then when

I noticed it I can no longer believe it

I don't have to any longer be a a subject

subject

to that interpretation of myself in the

world so awareness is one step it's not

adequate but it's an essential step

towards um letting go

that one belief that you weren't good

enough yeah how did that

rare its ugly head throughout your life it

um made me a workaholic physician

because they had to keep proving my worth

worth

and it doesn't matter no I don't know if

you ever had an addiction but the nature

of it is that we're trying to get from

the outside something that only can

arise and fulfill us from the inside so

when you're looking at from the outside

it's addictive because you get it

temporarily but then that internal

emptiness that hole never goes away so

it has to be filled over and over and

over again it can only be done so

temporarily so it becomes runaway

addictive so then you know work becomes

an addiction because I keep trying to

improve my worth

and it doesn't matter how many times

you know I I may show up in a positive

way at the beginning of Summer life at

the end of somebody else's life or any

time in between

it never fills that emptiness that my

sense of lack of worthiness creates

so that's one major shows up

another way it shows up is if

um in my relationship

I don't feel as satisfied

my wife doesn't

please me the way I like her too um

then I get angry but why am I getting angry

angry

I'm getting angry because it's my sense

of not being good enough that's being

now revealed

it gets uncovered this this this this

um but I get angry at her because her

job is to make me not feel that you know

we get into this relationship

four kinds of reasons some of them are

conscious some are not some are positive

some are come out of trauma in my case

I want that relationship to prove to me

how good I am

so when it isn't proving that then I get

upset with my partner you know well

except the Gap is inside me not inside

it's not coming from her so it shows up

it should have been my parenting it

shows up all over the place

I mean I think both of those examples

sound a lot like me especially the first

one yeah

um the second one as well but yeah what

sense in the sense that I I'm definitely

a workaholic and I thought I think in

the earlier phases of my life I like

sacrificed everything in this pursuit of

becoming a millionaire and and having

all this stuff and really getting this

validation sacrificed meaningful

connections everything in the pursuit of

this one thing well part of the toxicity

of the culture that I

talk about in this book is that it

actually rewards that kind of emptiness

or that or that desperate

seeking to to to to fill that emptiness

because because you know you get

rewarded you make a lot of money a lot

of people admire you you get to feel

good about yourself mind you my guess is

that good feeling is only temporary at

least if my example is any

guy that you know that feeling good

because somebody from the outside values

you it's only a temporary self for the

for the wound that's inside

but the world actually rewards it you

know so you're a workaholic doctor great

you make more money and all these people

respect you meanwhile you're holding

yourself on the on from the inside and

you're not available for your family you

know so that that's part of the

craziness of this culture and it's like

the it's like the hedonistic treadmill

in this in a sense because you just

never enough is never enough as you say

yeah so the last achievement needs to be

surpassed by a greater achievement for

me to get an applaud or a clap I've

never really made the connection that

the reason why I'm a workaholic is

because I am trying to prove to the

world that I'm enough but I think that

it's entirely true yeah so in your class

like like race and class in this Society

of inequality are certainly traumatic

potentially traumatic inputs as I

pointed in this book and you know to to

the degree that it affects people's

physiology you know but also then I

don't know your family version or what

kind of relationship you have with your

parents but there also may have been a sense

sense

like I got with my mom for you know

reasons and and for whatever it might

have happened in your family maybe you

got the sense as well that even in your

family origin you weren't

good enough somehow so my mum would

scream at my dad for like seven hours a

day my dad would just sit there okay and

so my early memories of like looking at

my mum and dad are this kind of

violent verbally not like physically

this incredibly stressful screaming one

person screaming at the other that's

what I remember but from reading what

you've written in this book and from

what you've said now

I actually might have learned

sort of learned to that I was the

problem to some degree your children

interpret it that way that's just the

whole point that's what I mean about

kids being narcissists that I don't mean

that in the negative sense I just I mean

actually they think it's all about them

so if your mother is unhappy

it's your fault

you know and you're not good enough

so then you have to go out there and

work to prove yourself to prove to the

world and to yourself that you're good

enough so that going back to your first

question about how these things show up

in our lives that's how they show up

and so 12 years old you you emigrate to

Vancouver yeah

um by 28 you joined the medical

profession yeah and you spend the next

32 years roughly working in well at 28 I

went back to medical school actually I I

took a detour I was a high school

teacher for and

um and then I was 27 28 when I started

medical school at age 33 I think I began

my medical

career of 32 years and in those 33 years

what what was your practice what did you

specialize in what did you focus on

so I was a family physician

which meant I delivered a lot of babies

and I looked after people's problems

from beginning to the end of life I also

worked in palliative care I was the

director of a unit at the hospital which

looked after people with a terminal disease

disease

and I did

that was 22 years or so of my practice

28 22 years

and then then I switched gears all

together and I went to work in the

downtown east side of Vancouver British

Columbia which is more North America's

most constantivated area of drug use we

have more

people coming from anywhere in the world

are shocked by what they see there are

thousands of people in the streets

injecting selling using inhaling

ingesting drugs of all kinds and people

have suffered the consequences of

drug use in a society that doesn't

understand drug use so it punishes it

and excludes it also sizes it so people

get HIV from Dirty needles and and

hepatitis C so

this is the population often they're

homeless so that's the population I

worked with for 12 years till the end of

my medical work

that experience working with patients

that were in palliative care so that's

for anybody that doesn't know that's

patients that are approaching the end of

their life that have terminal illnesses

and that are aware that they're going to

to die

what did that experience teach you

it took an acceptance of one's

lack of

lack of omnipotence as a physician

because you go into the you want to cure

people you want to you want people to heal

heal

and now it takes the tremendous

exceptions to say you know we've reached

the limit of our knowledge

and that doesn't mean we can't help

people but we certainly can't cure them

you know and so it taught me how to be

with the inevitable

and and and when you're working with

people who are

in the process of dying about I mean by

the way who isn't in the process of

dying you know but but people whose time

is more limited than the rest of us

acceptance you learn a lot of acceptance

it challenges you to do your best

when you know your best isn't going to

be saving anybody's lives but it's to

help people live a life of

as little suffering as possible and as

much dignity as possible

so it really challenges the best parts

of you to show up patience acceptance

um intuition personally taught me a lot

to listen to people interesting enough

people really want to be heard when

they're dying

they want to make sense of their lives

they want to tell their stories then I

want their stories to be heard

and so I listened a lot I just sat by

the bed so I don't know it isn't

and all that

when you listen did you

did you hear any themes relating to

regret or things that actually mattered

because I always imagine in if I was

given such news that my life was coming

to an end and there was an approximate

date it would be quite a powerful way of

finally realizing what truly matters and

what never did you know people who react

to their impending death in different

ways so there were some people who just

fought it to the end you know they

didn't really want to accept it but most people

people

were more along the lines that you

describe where they really get to see

what's important and so I mentioned this

a number of times it sounds strange and

I don't recommend it but I've had

patients say to me doctor I don't know

how to tell you this and I can't even

explain it perhaps but this illness

that's going to take my life is the best

thing that have happened to me

and but by men they meant a couple of

things by it they meant what you just

said about finding out what's really

important in life in this book The Myth

of normal lying to you a young man

called Bill pie wrote a book called

blessed with a brain tumor

in a Hot Hog what kind of blessing is

that so I said I asked will what's the

blessing and he said it made me

appreciate every moment it meant every

time I talked to somebody this I knew

this might be the last conversation I'm

gonna have with them so it better be a

human genuine interaction

so there was that aspect of it the other

aspect of it was that

again my view is as I pointed in this

book and in previous Works who gets sick

and who doesn't isn't isn't exactly

accidental they were certainly

personally patterns based on traumatic

experiences in your childhood that make

disease more likely

and people very often realize that

throughout their lives they had

abandoned who they were they lived the

life that didn't wasn't meaningful for them

them and

and

are on that they reconnected with

themselves in an authentic way and that

seemed to be worth a lot to people

again I don't recommend that way of

going to reconnect with yourself but

people have certainly I certainly saw it

so those are the two big lessons

after your 33 years in medical practice

um you you described that you had a bit

of a you kind of tuned into a creative

calling which was writing well I began

to write when I was a physician so my

first book on ADHD after I was diagnosed

with it was published in 1999 now so

that was 23 years ago now so I began to

write and even before then I wrote

Because I wrote uh cons for newspapers

but yes there was a time in my life

where the writing impulse which had been

with me all my life was stifled and and

and and and

um stymied

and so was I because I had this

frustration in fact they had the sense

that there's something I needed to express

express

but I didn't know what and they didn't

know how and at some point I realized oh

yeah I need to write so that began

before I finished medical practice but

it certainly um

has been essential to my ongoing

unfolding as a human being

I was so compelled by that when I when I

read about that because um

I've started to really understand the

value of creativity in all of our Lives

regardless of whether we have the luxury

of being called an artist or not and so

what in your view is the importance of

well you're you're singing my tune here

if I may say it that way because

um I called in this book uh there's a

great Hungarian Canadian stress

researcher called Janus celi a c-l-y-e

and Celia is the one who actually coined

the word stress in the sense that we use

it today and he's the one that showed in

the laboratory how stress diminishes the

immune system and this this organizes

the hormones and and ulcerates the

stomach and all this kind of stuff but

so now you also said then I quote him

here what is in US must out what is in

us most out

that we all have to follow our key of

your urges in the way that nature

prepared for us otherwise we can be

hopeless hopelessly hemmed in by

frustration I'm paraphrasing him very closely

closely so

we are created an image of God I mean as

you know what do religious views are but

that sense that we created an images of

God means that we are creators because

the essence of God is creation

in fact we call God the Creator and we

call the result of that creation

if we're created then if we're if we're offshoots

offshoots

of that creative dynamic in the universe

then it means that it's in us to create

and whatever form that takes I mean you

know you don't want to see me

do art you know unless you

I can do a pretty good stick figure you

know but but I'm married to a nurse um

so that Community doesn't have to take

the form of formal art but it does it if

it takes some flow of something that's

inside you that needs to come out

otherwise as Celia says you get

hopelessly hemmed in by frustration and

so in that sense everybody's got that

creative urge and that may take the form

of social intercourse it might take the

form of gardening I don't care communion

with nature

athletic expression I don't care what

but it but but there's somebody

everybody's got it and if people don't

realize they have it it's only because

life is him demand and they're too busy

and sometimes they are trying to make a

living or trying to survive or too

disconnected from themselves but it's in

all of us and to the extent that we

don't give it expression we suffer

one of the things that really hems it in

is um

is the prospect that we might not be

good at it because we think to express

ourselves creatively we kind of join a

competition of sorts and that's that's a

trap we can fall into so if I'm gonna DJ

I need to become a good DJ yeah but in

Social comparison or else I don't want

to but what I've come to learn is in

fact the act of DJing alone in my

kitchen at midnight is is the reward

regardless of outcome or whether there's

a crowd there it's just me and my dog

listening that is the expression is the

reward not the achievement or the medal

that I might get although yeah not the

external well look look I went through

that in the writing in this book so here

I am this is you know

the writer who writes about you know

trauma and you know healing and all of a

sudden I'm in a panic because I'm

writing a book and I realize that the

problem was that you talked about

identifying with your work so I had

identified with this book so the problem

wasn't a book

because let's say I write the book and

it's not a success I mean okay big

headline in the Sunday Times book not a

big success you know like how big of a

deal is that in the history of the universe

universe

but if I identify with the book

and it's not going well then if the book

fails then I'm feeling as a person which

then goes back to my very earliest uh

concern about not being worth it you

know so once I disidentified

I said no this is just a book it may be

a good book it may be an important book

maybe a book that doesn't hit the mark

but it's only a book and how it goes

says nothing about me or my worth

once I could decouple that then I could

confidently and much more comfortably go

back to the writing of it but I went to

that crisis it seems like a bit of a

paradox that this the lack of self-worth

would would motivate someone to to

create great things because they want

the approval but at the same time make

the process so agonizing because their

self-esteem seems to be on the line yeah

all their sense of self-worth is on the line

line

well that Dynamic was in me once I

realized that I let go of it you know so

it didn't it didn't dominate me in the

end and uh honest to God by the time I

finished the book

I'm not just saying this in retrospect

it's it's the best seller now in several

I actually said to myself and I meant it

now I've done the book

that's what matters

I've said what was in me to say

how the world reacts

I can't control and it doesn't actually

matter on a fundamental level it's not

that I don't want this book to be

accessed I mean success of course I

wanted to sell 10 zillion copies but

that doesn't Define my self-worth or a

high function in the world how I feel

about myself honestly it does not and I

I understood that by the time I finished

working on it

so once it's done it's out there doing

its work or not doing its work

but I don't have to hang my own sense of

self on how the book does

because at that point that's an outcome

you can't control right so trying to

control that would be yeah anxiety and

yeah oh yeah well you can't control it no

10 years this book yeah took you to

write took me to prepare it took about

three years to write yeah you describe

it as a calling yeah the myth of normal

yeah what four words to to sort of pull

people into in some way summarize uh 550

odd page book why why those four words

why that phrase

can I post from one to find a quote on

my cell phone 100 yeah yeah I just

so this is um are you familiar with the

rokovic artoli uh Echo totally yes okay

yeah so Tony lives in Vancouver like I

do and um in one of his books he says

the normal State of Mind of most human

beings contains a strong element of what

we might call dysfunction or even

Madness you know so

um in medical

um parlance uh normal means healthy and

natural so there's a normal range of

blood pressure normal

normal

temperature it's a range outside that

range there's no life there's no health

either too high or too low you're gone

so normal means it's it's equivalent

with synonymous with healthy and natural

however we make that same assumption

that the audience Society what we used

to what we call normal is also healthy

and natural which is a myth because I'm

saying that in this Society what we

considered to be normal is neither

healthy nor natural in fact it's hurtful

to us so that we're using the word normal

normal

in in a way that

doesn't apply

in the narrow medical sense

it's accurate but in a broader sense

that which we're used to in this Society

be considered normal is just not good

for us you know and Norm is kind of a

statistic or it's a kind of a

um average so if everybody you have a

dog if everybody in London mistreated

their dogs and if you didn't then you'd

be abnormal you know so it's a myth to

say that what is normal is healthy and

natural that's what I mean by the method

normal that's one one thing I mean the

other thing I mean is

if we understand that the actual science

of the unity of everything I'm not

talking about spiritual Insight here I'm

talking about you know physiological

science that are physiology and

psychology is very much affected by our

life experiences being in utero

childbirth early childhood and

throughout the lifetime

it also follows that illness and health

are not individual attributes they're

actually manifestations of our

relationships and our situation in the

world and and our history

that also means when the circumstances

are abnormal

you expect people to be sick

you know just as if

you gave animals something that wasn't

healthy for them they'd be sick that'd

be what you'd expect so

this idea that the people who are ill

either physically or mentally abnormal I

say no these are normal responses to an

abnormal set of circumstances and

and

rather than being sort of those abnormal

ones and the rest of us it's really a

spectrum they were all pretty much all

on it so in those three senses this idea

of normal is is a myth and it's one that

keeps us from

seeing reality

and we're all an abnormal in some way

yeah so if you maybe my maybe my

attention is different maybe my you know

my my interpersonal relationships are

abnormal but in some way I'm going to be

abnormal as it relates to treatments how

do you think that the medical profession

and the psychological profession would

respond differently if we removed this

idea that there is a normal how would

our approaches change to treating people hmm

hmm

it's a multi-layered answer

um first of all we would recognize that

our diagnoses are not explanations for anything

anything

so you know I've been diagnosed with ADD

you know legitimately so as my first

book was on it um

but but it doesn't explain anything

so so I do not easily very easily you

know and sometimes when I don't often

and I don't want to but you know

unless I'm highly motivated

so so you might say this person has ADD

how do we know because he Tunes out a lot

lot

why is it doing a lot this is

because it turns out a lot so so first

of all we have to understand that our

understanding of normal and what's

outside the normal they don't doesn't

explain anything

they can they can describe if you

describe my mental functioning as that

of somebody who's got an automatic

tendency to tune out you'd be accurate

so the description

it's helpful as an explanation as to why

this person isn't behaving quote unquote normally

normally

it doesn't explain anything not if you understood

understood

that I spent my infancy

under very difficult circumstances where

I was very stressed because of all the

stuff I already talked about and that

tuning out was a normal response

to to those circumstances as a way of

protecting myself from the stress of it

all and this is happening when my brain

was developing

then you understand there's nothing

abnormal about by tuning out in fact it

is the normal response to a set of

abnormal circumstances

so that's the first point and I could go

through the same kind of dialectic with

all manner of physical and mental

diseases by the way so-called the

the

second point is why do you say so-called um

well look the disease model is

as long as we understand it's a model

it's okay and we think it describes

reality fully it doesn't so um

for example

um because you talk about mental illnesses

illnesses

and we're assuming that there's a kind

of definite pathology there just as in

rheumatoid arthritis you can describe

the inflammation of the joints and

the blood levels of certain antibodies

being abnormal and

hormonal levels being disturbed you know

we're making the same assumption in

mental illness there's no such evidence

in mental illness there's no

physiological parameters that you can

say somebody's got mental illness

there's just been a study a few months

ago of thousands of band scans

of people with mental illness diagnosis

there's nothing diagnostic about them

about the brain scans it's not like I

can take an x-ray of a lung and say that

this is this lung is got what we call

consolidation or or fluid indicating inflammation

inflammation

there's nothing like that and mental

diagnosis there's no blood test you can

do and so on so illness

is a is is a

is a model I mean it might

yeah somebody's really depressed

even suicidal perhaps and they might

need pharmacological Intervention which

will really save their lives that may be true

and in that sense you may say that

they're ill

as long as we realize that this is a

construct that we're applying here but

there is no actual measurement of that

that's at all similar to what we call

physical disease

but even a physical disease we make

certain assumptions

um for example somebody has rheumatoid

arthritis no

that nothing wrong with that statement

on the face of it but there's an

assumption there

the assumption is that there's this

thing called rheumatoid arthritis

and there's this person called me and

this person has this thing no you know

the example I often give here's my cell

phone I'm holding it in my head I have a

cell phone it's not part of me it says

nothing about me it just it's a discrete

object its nature doesn't depend on my nature

nature nothing

is that true about rheumatoid arthritis

or is it more true to say as I found out

that this is a condition that shows up

in people with certain life experiences

and certain ways of functioning in the

world and that because of the science

document the unity of mind and body and the

the

impossibility of separating the activity

or emotional apparatus from seeing our

immune system because it's all one

organismic unit

therefore the when the immune system

turns against the body as it does in

rheumatoid arthritis damage system

actually attacks the body

is that a thing that's got a life of its

own or is it a process that's happening

inside that person because of certain

aspects of their lives

now if I say it's a thing that happens

to you then that thing has got a life of

its own and that's why most doctors see

it they see somebody with rheumatoid

arthritis they say okay this is the kind

you've got this is what's going to

happen this is this is the only thing we

can do is this is to mitigate the symptoms

symptoms

I find that's not true I find that the

rumor that by them not just I find it

the science finds it that rheumatoid

arthritis is very much related to stress

and Trauma and the more stress there is

the more likely it is to flare up and if

people deal with that stress if they

know how to prevent it their illness abates

abates

which means that it's not a thing that's

separate it's a process that happens

inside them

this is a subtle concept though I'm

wondering if I'm explaining it clearly

no you are and it's really making me

question how much we misunderstand the

relationship between the mind and the

immune system yeah because

that's the real that's the important

connection to understand if you if you

are to accept all the things you've just

said yeah which we don't we don't

understand I don't think typically we

understand that my mind and my immune

system have such a close relationship

well the the there's a whole new science

that studies those relationships it's

called psychoneuraminology which studies

the interlinked unity of the emotional

apparatus of our brain and body with the

immune system with the nervous system

and with the hormonal apparatus I mean

it's just so obvious

I could change your hormonal state in

this fifth second right now without

touching you just by screaming at you

and threatening you that would

necessarily create a change I mean it's

just clear their emotions are

inseparable you know and and the other

funny thing is well several funny things

how do we treat most conditions in

Medicine by the way inflammations if you

go to a dermatologist with the infinite skin

skin

if you go to a rheumatologist with

inflamed joints you should go to a

gastroenterologist with inflamed intestines

intestines

if you go to a respirologist with

inflamed lungs if you go to a

neurologist with the inflamed nervous

system is in multiple sclerosis they're

going to give you steroids

the steadily inflammation the water

steroids they are stress hormones

and you would think that as Physicians

we would ask ourselves gosh we're

treating everything with stress hormones

the stress maybe have something to do

with this condition

then when you look at the scientific

literature yes yes and yes so the

um there's a Great Canadian physician

actually United by Queen Victoria one of

the great medical teachers of all kinds

Sir William Osler and he said in 1890

that rheumatoid aristritis is a stressed

during disease

the the French uh neurologist Jean Matan

charcoal who first described multiple

sclerosis he said this is a stress

driven condition

and since then there's been so much research

research so

what I'm saying is that this this way of

looking at

what we call disease is a process

is so much more accurate scientifically

actually and understanding the Mind Body

unity and then you know naturally when

people are traumatized that has a huge

impact on their physiology their

psychological trauma is a huge impact on

their physiology it's just science

but its science that's not taught to

Medical teach medical uh doctors it's

just for some strange reason well the

average physician never hears a single

lecture about say trauma and his

relationship to illness and yet the

studies internationally thousands of them

them

showing those relationships

so there's this strange gap between

science and and medical practice but it

would it would change medical practice

for the better

because what would happen if you went to

a physician and and you presented with

your symptom and they'd say okay look

we'll give you such as medication to

deal with your symptoms and then let's

look at your life

in the context that you live it and see

how that the stresses that you may be

taking on the traumas you may be

carrying might be affecting the

physiology of your body

no they don't have to be all trauma

therapists to do that they just have to

raise the question

and they start and then to begin the

inquiry that'll make a huge change to

that person's life and to their disease process

process

and clearly to their kids lives as well

because I remember reading in your book

about the uh the study with the rats yeah

yeah

um and how they could you tell me about

that study how the stress study with the

rats and how the parents

um treatment of a child

impacted their stress response and then

also they passed that on which I thought

was yeah that was a very interesting

study it was done in Canada

um I think maybe something in the last

20 years

early 2000s I think

and they looked at her mother rats

interacted with their infants their

newborns and some and this is a process

called grooming

in which the mother rad licks the infant

earned apparent very uh perennial a

perineal area you know in the genitalia

this is shortly after birth this mother

rats you start licking their infants

some other rest did it in a more

efficient and caring kind of way than

other mother rats

those that had the better kind of caring

the better kind of grooming go to be calmer

calmer

and responded to stress in more

functional ways than those little rats who

who

as neonates had not been given that same

kind of

efficient and quite as caring grooming foreign

the brains of those adult rats who had

been groomed one way or the other as

infants the stressed apparatus was

different certain receptors for the

stress hormones so one of them could

call themselves more easily than the other

other

what was interesting is you might say

well that she's genetic the calmer

mothers passed on their genes to the

infants no they didn't because if you

took the infants of mothers who groomed

beautifully and put them with mothers

who didn't and conversely it took the

infant Rats of mothers who

didn't groom so well but you put them

with mothers who did

they change it changed the brain for the

adult it changed the brain it changed

the genetic functioning not the genes

okay but the genetic functioning this is

called epigenetics how genes are turned

on and off by the environment and then

those mother and those rats who are

going well as infants doesn't matter

what the original mother was but those

are actually going well they went on to

groom their infants

in exactly the way they had been groomed

so this is how we passed on our

parenting stuff

from one generation to the next both

behaviorally but also through the

turning on or off of certain genes

so in essence the how nurturing our

parents were has a big impact on our own

ability to handle stress positively or

negatively oh absolutely and then we

passed that down I stressed up answer

how they reacted to her own stress as

infants you know that has everything to

do with her brains handle stress later on

and so some people just don't handle

stress very well they don't handle a

frustration very well

you should have seen me this morning at

the hotel when the swimming pool didn't

open in time you know

but I I was a lot better than it might

have been years ago you know uh but yeah

our stress responses are very much

programmed by our early uh developmental experiences

experiences

speaking about our early experience is

the first word in the sort of subtitle

of your book is the word trauma

um it's a word that I've I've talked

about a lot on this podcast and I've you

know I've had a lot of people here that

have opened up about their traumas how

do you define trauma I know Society has

defined it in its own way but how do you

define it the word

I I Define it very specifically

um it's not something bad that happens

to you it's not some no it's not that

you know I went to this movie last night

and I was traumatized no you weren't you

were just sad or you were had some

emotional pain but you weren't traumatized

traumatized

trauma means a wound that's the literal

meaning of the word it's a Greek word

for wounding so trauma is a

psychological wound that you sustain

and um it behaves like a wound so on the

one hand

everyone if it's very raw if you touch

it it just really hurts so if I have a

wound around not being wanted then

then

or the belief that I'm not

then decades later if anything reminds

me of that it hurts as much as it did

when I originally incured the wound

so in in one sense trauma is an unhealed

wound that touched we get triggered

that's what triggering means by the way

some old wound gets activated or touched

and the other thing that happens to

wounds is that they scar over and Scar

Tissue has certain characteristics it's thick

thick

it has no nerve ending so there's no

feeling in it so people traumatize

disconnected from their feelings

um Sky tissue is rigid it's not flexible

so we lose kind of response flexibility

so when something happens we tend to

react in typical stereotypical predictable

predictable

dysfunctional ways because of the

rigidity and Scar Tissue doesn't grow

like healthy flesh so people are

traumatized tend to be stuck in

emotional states that characterized

their development when they were

traumatized so when somebody says to you

don't miss such a baby uh

doesn't sound very pleasant but there's

some truth to it it means that you're

probably reacting according to the lines

of someone that you sustained as an

infant and now you're you're reacting as

if that wound was happening all over

again this is what one of my friends in

the trauma World Peter Levine calls the

attorney of the past

so something happens in the present

and we react

as if we're back there in the past when

this first happened

and we're not in the present moment at all

all

and I was I was trying to figure out how

many people

um as a percentage of the population

have a

have trauma but then I I you know I read

this stat with 60 of adults um say that

they've had sort of a traumatic early

upbringing or whatever or traumatic

events from their childhood but then I

thought maybe everybody has trauma

it depends on um how we understand

trauma so if we understand trauma is

only the really terrible things that

happen to people which do happen to

people you know in the book I talked

about a British friend of mine but not

living in Canada

um they are a yoga teacher and a

meditation teacher and a psychologist

and an artist actually and they grew up

in some orphanage here in Britain where

they were racially taunted every every

morning you know words that are in the

book by her permission which I'm not

going to cite here publicly

and that gave her a sense of deficient a

sense of self that I'm just not good

enough that I don't belong and so on

there's those obvious traumas or the

obvious trauma of being sexually abused

so men who are sexually abused according

to Canadian study have tripled the rate

of heart attacks as adults you know and

all kinds of physiological reasons well

that should be the case so there's those

self-evident Lord big tea traumas that

we call Big tea terminal Cat TV the

capital T trauma with the capital T

there's a certain percentage of the

population much larger than we think

subject to that if you include

um All the known factors such as

physical sexual or emotional abuse

spanking by the way has not been shown

to be as traumatic as harsher forms of

physical abuse spanking which is still

recommended by so-called experts who

should be named remain unnamed for the

moment uh the death of a parent the

violence in a Family Violence parental

violence against each other a parent

being jailed

depending mentally ill

did I say apparent being addicted a

rancor's divorce these are the

identified Big traumas Big T traumas no

not to mention poverty

not to mention extreme inequality

war and so on

but then

if you remember that trauma is not what

happens to you but what happens inside you

you

this is the wound people can be wounded

not just by bad things happening to them

but small children can be wounded

in loving families

where they don't get their knees met

I mean that's obvious in the physical

sense if a child doesn't get proper nutrition

nutrition

their body will suffer their mind will suffer

suffer

we're also creatures with the emotional

needs as important as our physical needs

so when the child's emotional needs are

not met that child is wounded and that's

what we call small tea trauma which is

not the big ticket events such as I

described but just the child's need to

be loved unconditionally to be held when

distressed to be responded to to be seen

to be heard to be allowed their full

range of emotion without them being

stamped on in the name of so-called discipline

discipline [Music]

[Music] um

the right to play creatively

creatively

spontaneously out there in nature not

with these damn digital the gadgets that

subvert and hijacked the child's imagination

imagination

but spontaneous Play That's essential

for band development

so what I'm saying is that when these

needs are not for the

unconditional loving attachment

relationship when those needs are

frustrated children are also hurt and I

call that trauma as well because it

shows up later in life as the impact of

painful wounds

so drama in this Society for all kinds

of reasons is far more common than we

imagined from sitting here and speaking

to I don't know somewhere over 100

different people that come from all

walks of life but specifically people

that are successful in their Industries

and you talked about you know how

how

um an anomalous early upbringing can

create sort of abnormality in an adult a

lot of the people I sit here are

successful because of some kind of

abnormality or at least their

interpretation of some kind of early

event that caused them to have some sort

of abnormal belief about themselves that

they're not enough so they become a

billionaire or a gold medalist or

whatever it might be yeah one of the

things that I thought I could predict is

I thought I could if they told me I

thought after doing 100 episodes if they

told me the traumatic event they'd been

through I could predict the the outcome

in them but there's a disconnect there

because you know I'd sit here with a

guest who went through one of your tall

um capital T traumas like domestic

violence and one of them might become

incredibly angry yeah and one of them

might become the most peaceful loving

person I've ever met yeah and that

taught me that there's this thing in

between the event which is what you call

interpretation yeah and I found that

really I found that as that kind of

makes it really difficult to diagnose

well no look so the two examples you gave

gave um

that really peaceful person may be

really peaceful for genuinely good

reasons such as they've found the milk

of human love flowing through their

veins and they've had some spiritual

reconciliation with the world where they

may have lit genuinely learned

compassion for themselves and others but

they could also be very nice and

peaceful because they're suppressing

their healthy anger

because they're actually sitting on

their rage unconsciously which is going

to show up in a form of some kind of

Health manifestation I guarantee you

later on so you can't tell from the outside

outside

without asking some questions uh or I

can give you the example of a Donald Trump

Trump who

who

had a really traumatic childhood I mean

his father was a this as described by

his psychologist niece Mary Trump his

father Trump's father who is Mary's grandfather

grandfather

was a psychopath

and who really demeaned and harshly

treated their children

so Trump decides unconsciously

that by the way I'm not talking about

his policies here I'm not this is not a

political debate and in the book I point

out that his opponent was also

traumatized uh Hillary Clinton said this

is this is a uh ecumenical uh view of

trauma and politics and not choosing

sides I'm just saying that you can see

his trauma in every moment he opens his mouth

mouth

his grandiosities need to make himself

bigger more powerful aggressive and eat

as much as said in his autobiography

that the world is a horrible place a

doggy dog place where everybody was

after you everybody wants your wife and

your house and your wealth and this is

your friends

never mind your enemies but that's the

world he lives in though that world that

he lives in reflects his childhood home

he developed that world you

he came to it honestly you might say

because that's the world that he lived in

and he gets to be really successful in

this crazy world

you know financially although people

question you know was he really as big a

success as he says he was but he

certainly was successful politically if

by success you mean the attainment of power

power

his brother on the other hand Mary

Trump's father Trump's niece's father

drag himself to death

and they were both responses to the same

you can never say it's exactly the same

for two kids but there was that there

was a toxic home environment one ends up

dead as an alcoholic

the other ends up at the Pinnacle of power

and when I look at them both

I see dysfunction there significant

dysfunction here

so one of the one of those the

consequences of that early upbringing

was it materialized itself as sort of addiction

addiction

and the other got the same psychological

reinforcement or the thing missing from

power and work and money

Donald Trump learned that the way to

survive is to be aggressive and harsh

and competitive and to get the other

before they get to you

which is a faithful reproduction of his

early childhood experiences so for him

these were not choices so much as survival

survival

techniques and

uh when they talk about his lying

lying well

well

I don't know when he's lying or when

he's not but my sense is that often he

actually believes what he's saying and

actually he's a biographer or the person who

who

co-wrote his

cause the autobiographical the art of

the deal this this writer says that he's

never met anybody who is so capable of

believing something that's not true to

be true if he wants it to be true

now that's the mark of a traumatized child

child

you know a denial of reality

it is an inauguration there was a

certain number of people that came today

he couldn't stand it that there weren't

as many people there as came to Barack Obama's

Obama's

inauguration they were much smaller

number of people there

he created this reality where many more

people came to his inauguration

now what age behavior is that

that's a four-year-old but more kids

came to his party than my party that

can't be true

but that's Donald's way of dealing with reality

reality

it's not a moral failing as such that's

how he survived

and these survival

mechanisms for them get to form our

personalities and again in this world

sometimes they pay off

in certain ways

is that is that often the case with

pathological lies they've learned to lie

as a way to survive oh absolutely the

the German philosopher writer Nichi

Friedrich Nietzsche said people lie

their way out of reality who have been

hurt by reality

and so I've lied you know like when I

had my shopping addiction I relied Every

Day to my wife

you know and even afterwards when she

tried when she stopped trying to change

my behavior

I said just tell me

if you're going to show up you're going

to spend another thousand dollars on

I still couldn't because

because

I was so ashamed of it and so the lying

became like a

a way of survival for me defense against

reality it's a defense against reality

and is the defense against

um being judged

you know well that says something about

my childhood you know nobody's born a

liar as we say in this book there are

congenial Liars but there are no

congenital Liars no one day old baby

tells any lies no wonder your baby

pretends anything if we end up

pretending in any way at all to the

extent that we do it's because we have

to learn that's what we must do to survive

survive

you said something at the start when I

gave the example that I have this I sat

with a guest here who went through

domestic abuse yeah and they are the

calmest person and then you said well

maybe they're suppressing it and in fact

the minute you said that it reminded me

of something they said which is they

they said to me on this podcast that

they had

um angry outbursts all the time

so sometimes their child will come up to

them yeah

um and want to play when they're working

and they'll snap yeah and they're trying

to they're trying to deal with that yeah

that's what I meant that they're sitting

on this um

creator of volcanic crater of anger

which sometimes bursts out of them so

their their demeanor is like a really

developed suppressed

um way of handling rage

which rage when they were children had

they expressed would have got them into

more trouble so suppressing it

repressing it

became their survival it's all about

survival you see so it became their

survival mechanism no

that person as long as they keep it that

way they're

at risk

their risk for mental health diagnosis

like depression

because what what is depression it means

you're pushing something down that's

what it means what to be pushed down

our natural emotions why do we push them

down because we have to to survive so

that that person I don't know I can't

prognosticate what's going to happen to

them but if they don't work it out

in general

they're at risk for some kind of mental

or physical manifestation that's my experience

experience

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expressing one's emotions and something you've talked about in this book but

you've talked about in this book but also previously is this idea that there

also previously is this idea that there is such a thing as healthy anger yeah um

is such a thing as healthy anger yeah um it's one of the seven A's of your of

it's one of the seven A's of your of healing as you say the first being the

healing as you say the first being the topic a topic we've talked about already

topic a topic we've talked about already which is acceptance yeah

which is acceptance yeah um the next being awareness well

um the next being awareness well awareness I wish we had put into this

awareness I wish we had put into this book but we didn't not into this book uh

book but we didn't not into this book uh in this book I booked Four A's and uh I

in this book I booked Four A's and uh I left that awareness and that was an

left that awareness and that was an Omission on my part really yeah it was

Omission on my part really yeah it was I'm sorry but it was so in the book you

I'm sorry but it was so in the book you have authenticity

have authenticity anger acceptance

anger acceptance an agency yeah and yeah acceptance yeah

an agency yeah and yeah acceptance yeah so awareness you've said before before

so awareness you've said before before this book that awareness is the starting

this book that awareness is the starting point yeah

point yeah I found that to be so true in my life

I found that to be so true in my life but it's not very easy I feel like

but it's not very easy I feel like awareness is a is a luxury or a

awareness is a is a luxury or a privilege that is very hard fought yeah

privilege that is very hard fought yeah because you're guessing yeah you're

because you're guessing yeah you're guessing based on pattern recognition so

guessing based on pattern recognition so I was guessing 25 years old I can't get

I was guessing 25 years old I can't get into relationship any time a girl comes

into relationship any time a girl comes near me yeah even if I've pursued her I

near me yeah even if I've pursued her I run off and to figure out why I was

run off and to figure out why I was doing that to even identify the behavior

doing that to even identify the behavior pattern and go that's not helpful that's

pattern and go that's not helpful that's not going to lead me to feeling whole

not going to lead me to feeling whole yeah

yeah um where does that come from took 25

um where does that come from took 25 years and a lot of like introspection

years and a lot of like introspection but but most people they're living

but but most people they're living unaware of the puppet master of trauma

unaware of the puppet master of trauma that is driving their life that's a

that is driving their life that's a really good analogy the trauma really is

really good analogy the trauma really is like um a puppet master behind the

like um a puppet master behind the scenes in the unconscious pulling your

scenes in the unconscious pulling your strings and you're not aware of it you

strings and you're not aware of it you know do you remember Pinocchio yeah so

know do you remember Pinocchio yeah so remember what Pinocchio says at the end

remember what Pinocchio says at the end the way when he finally becomes a real

the way when he finally becomes a real boy yeah yeah he says how foolish I was

boy yeah yeah he says how foolish I was when I was a puppet

when I was a puppet and to the extent that we're being

and to the extent that we're being activated by these

activated by these unconscious strings that are traumas

unconscious strings that are traumas pulling behind the scenes

pulling behind the scenes and reacting in our lives and we think

and reacting in our lives and we think we're autonomous free beings but we're

we're autonomous free beings but we're actually being controlled by something

actually being controlled by something in the past that we haven't worked out

in the past that we haven't worked out we're puppets

we're puppets reality puppets

reality puppets there's not there's not much freedom in

there's not there's not much freedom in that there's no there's no freedom in it

that there's no there's no freedom in it at all

at all so I mean I suppose the opposite of

so I mean I suppose the opposite of trauma if you want to revisit that

trauma if you want to revisit that question is is liberation

question is is liberation interesting

interesting Liberation and by reconnection by

Liberation and by reconnection by reconnection of Liberation from the from

reconnection of Liberation from the from the inexorable power of the unconscious

the inexorable power of the unconscious which is like cutting the strings in a

which is like cutting the strings in a way kind of brings me to there's kind of

way kind of brings me to there's kind of two ways to I want to go with that but

two ways to I want to go with that but the first question I have about about

the first question I have about about trauma and the puppet master analogy is

trauma and the puppet master analogy is do we ever do we ever really cut the

do we ever do we ever really cut the strings or do we just kind of learn to

strings or do we just kind of learn to pull against them when they try and tell

pull against them when they try and tell us to do something with more Force then

us to do something with more Force then they're exerting in the opposite

they're exerting in the opposite direction

direction um

um that doesn't work very well

that doesn't work very well pushing against it because they're still

pushing against it because they're still reactive you're still not in charge

reactive you're still not in charge you're just in automatic resistance mode

you're just in automatic resistance mode to something there's no freedom in that

to something there's no freedom in that either

either you know so yeah

you know so yeah um

um but awareness that you mentioned is huge

but awareness that you mentioned is huge because weren't you aware that there's

because weren't you aware that there's this see the thing about these strings

this see the thing about these strings may not Fray right away

may not Fray right away but once you wear that ah

but once you wear that ah this reaction of mine

this reaction of mine it's not about what's going on right now

it's not about what's going on right now there's something old being activated

there's something old being activated here that awareness alone weakens the it

here that awareness alone weakens the it slackens the strings a bit no you know

slackens the strings a bit no you know they no longer is taught they're no

they no longer is taught they're no longer is automatically

longer is automatically um

um capable of pulling on you

capable of pulling on you so it does have to be begin with

so it does have to be begin with awareness of them ultimately

if we realize that this Puppet Master is just a desperate little person trying to

just a desperate little person trying to get you to survive the only way he she

get you to survive the only way he she they knew how when you were small when

they knew how when you were small when they were small if you make friends with

they were small if you make friends with it

it but we believe it of its duties

but we believe it of its duties saying thanks very much but I can handle

saying thanks very much but I can handle it now

it now it eventually Becomes Her friend rather

it eventually Becomes Her friend rather than sort of our

than sort of our Master you know

Master you know you know on that first step of just

you know on that first step of just acknowledging just understanding that

acknowledging just understanding that there is a puppet master they're

there is a puppet master they're controlling us and exactly which strings

controlling us and exactly which strings that Puppet Master is is pulling in our

that Puppet Master is is pulling in our lives how does one go about

lives how does one go about awareness the process of awareness is

awareness the process of awareness is that I mean is it introspection keeping

that I mean is it introspection keeping a diary therapy what is it well all that

a diary therapy what is it well all that I mean it all or any but even when you

I mean it all or any but even when you ask how you go about it

ask how you go about it what is the it well for you to say how

what is the it well for you to say how to go about it you already must have

to go about it you already must have some degree of awareness if you didn't

some degree of awareness if you didn't you wouldn't even be asking the question

you wouldn't even be asking the question so that's the very first step

so that's the very first step of realizing that there's something here

of realizing that there's something here to work on there's something here to

to work on there's something here to work through it does not need to be the

work through it does not need to be the way it is that already is the biggest

way it is that already is the biggest step the Buddha said that that to

step the Buddha said that that to recognize the source of your suffering

recognize the source of your suffering is the first step towards relieving the

is the first step towards relieving the suffering and so as soon as you ask how

suffering and so as soon as you ask how you go about it you've already taken a

you go about it you've already taken a huge step because a lot of people don't

huge step because a lot of people don't even know that there's an it

even know that there's an it they just think this is a reality that

they just think this is a reality that this is life so we're realizing that

this is life so we're realizing that this it doesn't have to be the way it is

this it doesn't have to be the way it is that's already a huge step now beyond

that's already a huge step now beyond that

that yoga meditation

yoga meditation um nature

um nature um therapy of all kinds Bodywork

um therapy of all kinds Bodywork of all kinds like like somatic

of all kinds like like somatic experiencing or um or um

experiencing or um or um cranial sacral treatments or even

cranial sacral treatments or even massage therapy it's incredible what can

massage therapy it's incredible what can be revealed just through body work like

be revealed just through body work like that then all kinds of forms of therapy

that then all kinds of forms of therapy the ones I teach the ones other people

the ones I teach the ones other people teach

teach journaling

um certain exercises in this book that we recommend like just ask yourself will

we recommend like just ask yourself will you have trouble saying no in life to

you have trouble saying no in life to things you don't really want to do and

things you don't really want to do and working that through on a regular basis

working that through on a regular basis so there's lots of ways once you open

so there's lots of ways once you open the door

the door you know

you know I have a chapter on psychedelics here

I have a chapter on psychedelics here which is a

which is a again it's not like a Panacea or for

again it's not like a Panacea or for everyone but surely it's a helpful

everyone but surely it's a helpful modality for a lot of people

modality for a lot of people so um some people may actually benefit

so um some people may actually benefit from taking pharmaceutical medications

from taking pharmaceutical medications if their situation is dire enough

if their situation is dire enough but not as the final answer but as a way

but not as the final answer but as a way of getting respite that allowed them to

of getting respite that allowed them to go to work on the real issues that cause

go to work on the real issues that cause them to be depressed or

them to be depressed or anxious or tuning out you know so any

anxious or tuning out you know so any and all of these things other people

and all of these things other people don't even want to open those doors

don't even want to open those doors though because they there's so much pain

though because they there's so much pain associated with maybe going back or

associated with maybe going back or revisiting an early experience that they

revisiting an early experience that they just think it's better keep the doors

just think it's better keep the doors shut yeah

shut yeah um and get get to tomorrow that's true

um and get get to tomorrow that's true um to which I have two answers one is

um to which I have two answers one is it's true it's painful

it's true it's painful um because all the pain you didn't want

um because all the pain you didn't want to feel and you've been running away

to feel and you've been running away from through your compensatory behaviors

from through your compensatory behaviors like like your addictions are nothing

like like your addictions are nothing but an attempt to escape from Pain

but an attempt to escape from Pain that's all they are that's not you know

that's all they are that's not you know they're not a disease they're not a

they're not a disease they're not a genetic whatever it is addictions are

genetic whatever it is addictions are very simply an attempt to escape pain

very simply an attempt to escape pain which could create more pain

which could create more pain but that's what they are

but that's what they are and so we get addicted to work to sex to

and so we get addicted to work to sex to pornography the gambling to the internet

pornography the gambling to the internet to shopping to eating to power on that

to shopping to eating to power on that point I find it so fast that you that

point I find it so fast that you that when you mentioned in your previous book

when you mentioned in your previous book that you know you classify things like

that you know you classify things like food yeah social media yeah shopping

food yeah social media yeah shopping yeah porn and work as types of addiction

yeah porn and work as types of addiction that was uh that in and of itself was a

that was uh that in and of itself was a bit of a revelation for me because I

bit of a revelation for me because I never saw work as an addiction the

never saw work as an addiction the minute you said it was and I kind of

minute you said it was and I kind of link it to

link it to you know heroin addiction which is

you know heroin addiction which is providing a you know a certain

providing a you know a certain psychological physiological

psychological physiological um benefit to me yeah temporarily

um benefit to me yeah temporarily temporarily yeah of course it's a

temporarily yeah of course it's a [ __ ] addiction of course work is an

[ __ ] addiction of course work is an addiction because they have that

addiction because they have that addiction well it can be an addiction

addiction well it can be an addiction yeah or it can also be sacred it can

yeah or it can also be sacred it can also be fulfilling in the manifestation

also be fulfilling in the manifestation of your creative urges but it's so it's

of your creative urges but it's so it's not the

not the but it's strange to say not that I

but it's strange to say not that I recommend it but it's possible even to

recommend it but it's possible even to use heroin in a non-addictive way

use heroin in a non-addictive way I don't personally get it and I would

I don't personally get it and I would never want to but the addiction is never

never want to but the addiction is never in the

in the Behavior itself it's in your

Behavior itself it's in your relationship to the behavior so if the

relationship to the behavior so if the particular activity gives you temporary

particular activity gives you temporary relief or pleasure and therefore you

relief or pleasure and therefore you crave it

crave it but it causes harm in the long term and

but it causes harm in the long term and you can't give it up you've got an

you can't give it up you've got an addiction and I don't care what the

addiction and I don't care what the activity is could be drugs and all the

activity is could be drugs and all the other things that we mentioned and and

other things that we mentioned and and and it employs the same brain Circus by

and it employs the same brain Circus by the way the workaholic is after the same

the way the workaholic is after the same brain chemical that the cocaine addict

brain chemical that the cocaine addict is after dopamine

is after dopamine you know and people can be even addicted

you know and people can be even addicted to their own stress hormones like

to their own stress hormones like adrenaline the so-called Adrenaline

adrenaline the so-called Adrenaline Junkies there's such a thing you know so

Junkies there's such a thing you know so almost anything can be addictive if it

almost anything can be addictive if it serves the purpose of temporarily easing

serves the purpose of temporarily easing some distress but causing harm in the

some distress but causing harm in the long term is is escapism the right word

long term is is escapism the right word to use then for it if we're

to use then for it if we're because it it doesn't sound as much like

because it it doesn't sound as much like we're escaping rather than we are

we're escaping rather than we are seeking something I'm seeking relief

seeking something I'm seeking relief from a certain mental state like like

from a certain mental state like like I just gave you a definition of

I just gave you a definition of addiction so I think I don't know what

addiction so I think I don't know what addictions you've had what happened or

addictions you've had what happened or haven't besides you know but what did

haven't besides you know but what did that do for you

that do for you temporarily

temporarily um and give you something made me feel

um and give you something made me feel like I was valid and I was pursuing a

like I was valid and I was pursuing a sense of accomplishment and validation

sense of accomplishment and validation and a good sense of worth worth yeah it

and a good sense of worth worth yeah it was worthy yeah no is that something

was worthy yeah no is that something that people need or not

that people need or not yes yeah that's a good thing but the

yes yeah that's a good thing but the real question is

real question is why did you ever get the idea that you

why did you ever get the idea that you didn't have the words why did I get the

didn't have the words why did I get the I didn't have the word that's what

I didn't have the word that's what trauma comes because I was called the

trauma comes because I was called the n-word when I was yeah eight by a kid in

n-word when I was yeah eight by a kid in school exactly and then I know myself

school exactly and then I know myself because your mother screamed at your

because your mother screamed at your father yeah yeah you know and and so all

father yeah yeah you know and and so all that together and so

that together and so and that's emotionally painful like

and that's emotionally painful like what's it feel like to be not to have a

what's it feel like to be not to have a sense of word that's painful and so

sense of word that's painful and so that's why my Mantra is don't ask why

that's why my Mantra is don't ask why the addiction that's why the pain

the addiction that's why the pain and if you understand why the pain you

and if you understand why the pain you have to look at that person's life

have to look at that person's life and what the benefit of the addiction is

and what the benefit of the addiction is that's something that you say in the

that's something that you say in the previous book that I found is it's a

previous book that I found is it's a flipping of narrative where you say we

flipping of narrative where you say we should be asking what the benefit of the

should be asking what the benefit of the addiction is well and like in your case

addiction is well and like in your case yeah it gives me a sense of worth well

yeah it gives me a sense of worth well okay

okay I'll say to you if you come to me

I'll say to you if you come to me because you say like I'm broke or like

because you say like I'm broke or like it's causing some harm in my life it's

it's causing some harm in my life it's keeping keeping me from Intimate

keeping keeping me from Intimate Relationships that makes me stressed and

Relationships that makes me stressed and tired whatever it is

tired whatever it is that's the first thing I would ask you

that's the first thing I would ask you for you of you is what is it doing for

for you of you is what is it doing for you and you say a sense of word and I'd

you and you say a sense of word and I'd say you know what

you deserve to have a sense of birth I totally understand why you'd want to

totally understand why you'd want to engage in an activity that gives it to

engage in an activity that gives it to you

you but given that it's causing you harm

but given that it's causing you harm let's look at why you don't have a sense

let's look at why you don't have a sense of worth and how else you might develop

of worth and how else you might develop it that isn't harmful to you you know so

it that isn't harmful to you you know so but you you start with what's right

but you you start with what's right about it what are you looking for and

about it what are you looking for and what you're looking for is always valid

and how one would go about how would one go about getting that sense of worth and

go about getting that sense of worth and asking for a friend

well um that would be a matter of um some form of work people who meditate

um some form of work people who meditate often deal with that issue through the

often deal with that issue through the meditation not always

meditation not always certainly therapy

certainly therapy you know

you know um

by recognizing also that what you're doing to get a sense of where it doesn't

doing to get a sense of where it doesn't really do it for you just by getting

really do it for you just by getting honest about it you know

honest about it you know so there's all kinds of ways but the

so there's all kinds of ways but the first step is the recognition

first step is the recognition that's the first step that you say is uh

that's the first step that you say is uh missing missing from the book which is

missing missing from the book which is that sort of awareness the next thing

that sort of awareness the next thing which I've been it's been really front

which I've been it's been really front of mind in my life recently because I've

of mind in my life recently because I've been asked this a few times on stage and

been asked this a few times on stage and I've been trying to find the words to

I've been trying to find the words to really

really um articulate the importance of it is

um articulate the importance of it is and this is one of your forays in this

and this is one of your forays in this book about how to heal is authenticity

book about how to heal is authenticity yeah really interesting concept because

yeah really interesting concept because I've been trying to articulate why the

I've been trying to articulate why the fact that I've just shared all this

fact that I've just shared all this stuff with you yeah and the fact that I

stuff with you yeah and the fact that I do this every week yeah I'm getting

do this every week yeah I'm getting closer and closer to that sort of

closer and closer to that sort of authentic self where there's really the

authentic self where there's really the mask is kind of dropping on me why

mask is kind of dropping on me why that's been so healing for me why is

that's been so healing for me why is authenticity such a good way an

authenticity such a good way an important way for us to heal

important way for us to heal it's much more than the way for us to

it's much more than the way for us to heal it's actually who we are like what

heal it's actually who we are like what you're actually asking is why is it

you're actually asking is why is it important for a creature to be true to

important for a creature to be true to its own nature

its own nature because

because that's what we're meant to do we're

that's what we're meant to do we're meant to be here as ourselves

meant to be here as ourselves you know and and and when we nod

you know and and and when we nod ourselves because we had to abandon

ourselves because we had to abandon ourselves or

ourselves or betray ourselves disconnect from

betray ourselves disconnect from ourselves in order to survive

ourselves in order to survive um

um we lost connections with our essence and

we lost connections with our essence and uh

uh I mean how does it feel

I mean how does it feel to

to be a successful CEO and you know more

be a successful CEO and you know more than realizing your Financial dreams

than realizing your Financial dreams but to be a workaholic and and and and

but to be a workaholic and and and and not to be available to yourself in areas

not to be available to yourself in areas of your life that really matter to you

of your life that really matter to you as opposed to

as opposed to being honest about your stuff

being honest about your stuff sharing with other people uh dropping

sharing with other people uh dropping the veil dropping the I mean

the veil dropping the I mean to answer your question what does it

to answer your question what does it feel like I mean can you sense the

feel like I mean can you sense the difference in your body feels lighter

difference in your body feels lighter well yeah expansive exactly well that's

well yeah expansive exactly well that's the answer yeah that's why it's so

the answer yeah that's why it's so important

important so many of us so many of us um

so many of us so many of us um live in authentic lives because as you

live in authentic lives because as you said it's it's because either

said it's it's because either because from an early age we were

because from an early age we were escaping

escaping um some kind of you know reality in

um some kind of you know reality in order to help us to survive or then the

order to help us to survive or then the other thing that happens a bit later on

other thing that happens a bit later on in life is we develop an identity which

in life is we develop an identity which becomes a career which becomes a Social

becomes a career which becomes a Social Circle which becomes a prison

Circle which becomes a prison of um our inauthentic selves we get

of um our inauthentic selves we get trapped in there you know because I was

trapped in there you know because I was good at something or because I you know

good at something or because I you know I felt accepted in this job as a lawyer

I felt accepted in this job as a lawyer so I am now living inauthentically as

so I am now living inauthentically as this robot in this prison

this robot in this prison um

and it's a it's a there's often a real perception of risk

there's often a real perception of risk and loss in danger

and loss in danger of trying to get out of that prison and

of trying to get out of that prison and trying to get close to our authentic

trying to get close to our authentic selves we feel like we'll lose our

selves we feel like we'll lose our friendship Circle we'll feel like we'll

friendship Circle we'll feel like we'll we'll let our parents down he wanted us

we'll let our parents down he wanted us to become a lawyer you know all of these

to become a lawyer you know all of these things

things I guess you see that a lot in your in

I guess you see that a lot in your in your work well there is that risk and

your work well there is that risk and but here's the issue as a child you had

but here's the issue as a child you had no choice

no choice but to go for

but to go for acceptance and being approved of and

acceptance and being approved of and being received

being received um under any under any conditions no

um under any under any conditions no matter what you had to give up of your

matter what you had to give up of your authenticity you had to give up your

authenticity you had to give up your authenticity you had no choice in the

authenticity you had no choice in the matter

matter at a certain point as adults we get we

at a certain point as adults we get we learn that this lack of authenticity

learn that this lack of authenticity this this connection from ourselves this

this this connection from ourselves this separation from our gut feelings

separation from our gut feelings um is costing us it's costing us in

um is costing us it's costing us in terms of our physical health our our

terms of our physical health our our Peace of Mind our relationship our

Peace of Mind our relationship our mental health and so on

you'll never be as vulnerable again as you were as when you were a child you

you were as when you were a child you never be as helpless as dependent as

never be as helpless as dependent as um resourceless

um resourceless no it's true that if you develop the

no it's true that if you develop the whole set of relationships based on your

whole set of relationships based on your authentic inauthentic Persona some

authentic inauthentic Persona some people

people in your life may not like it if you

in your life may not like it if you gradually move towards authenticity they

gradually move towards authenticity they may not like it it's not what they

may not like it it's not what they wanted from you you're going to find out

wanted from you you're going to find out who your friends are

who your friends are you're really gonna fight because your

you're really gonna fight because your real friends will say oh I'm so happy

real friends will say oh I'm so happy for you

for you we were waiting for this other fans will

we were waiting for this other fans will say uh that's not what I signed up for

say uh that's not what I signed up for you know

you know the question is you still have to decide

the question is you still have to decide as an infant as a young child I had no

as an infant as a young child I had no agency

agency in the choice of you know authenticity

in the choice of you know authenticity and attachment no I do

and attachment no I do which one do you want to go with what is

which one do you want to go with what is the cost of being an authentic I can't

the cost of being an authentic I can't make that decision for anybody else

make that decision for anybody else nobody can make that decision for

nobody can make that decision for anybody else but most people will find

anybody else but most people will find that choosing authenticity as benefits

that choosing authenticity as benefits Way Beyond whatever they might lose

Way Beyond whatever they might lose that's what I find

that's what I find and you said the word their agency which

and you said the word their agency which is the second of the Four A's yeah on

is the second of the Four A's yeah on how to heal now agency when when I read

how to heal now agency when when I read that word I I hear like personal

that word I I hear like personal responsibility taking personal

responsibility taking personal responsibility yeah over my life exactly

responsibility yeah over my life exactly which also means not letting you know

which also means not letting you know you don't use try you don't wear trauma

you don't use try you don't wear trauma as a badge you know or you don't use it

as a badge you know or you don't use it as a get out of jail pass in a game of

as a get out of jail pass in a game of Monopoly oh I was traumatized so I can't

Monopoly oh I was traumatized so I can't I can't be any other way you know I mean

I can't be any other way you know I mean giving all the power to the Puppet

giving all the power to the Puppet Master yeah yeah exactly

Master yeah yeah exactly so agency means actually I take the

so agency means actually I take the responsibility not for what happened to

responsibility not for what happened to me

not even how I interpreted the world as a result going backwards but how I

a result going backwards but how I interpret the world from now on do I

interpret the world from now on do I still want to interpret the world and my

still want to interpret the world and my role in it based on some decision I made

role in it based on some decision I made when I was a one-year-old that's where

when I was a one-year-old that's where agency comes in agency also means that

agency comes in agency also means that if I have

if I have any kind of dysfunction or illness it's

any kind of dysfunction or illness it's not just that I put my hands in the

not just that I put my hands in the hands of a put my my faith in the hands

hands of a put my my faith in the hands of a physician or a Healer but I I have

of a physician or a Healer but I I have I make the decisions I listen to your

I make the decisions I listen to your advice I accept some I don't accept some

advice I accept some I don't accept some but I'm the one who's making the

but I'm the one who's making the decisions along with what seems right to

decisions along with what seems right to me

me to agency

first thing in your in your work throughout your work you use

throughout your work you use alliteration as a lot as a way to kind

alliteration as a lot as a way to kind of summarize and make ideas really

of summarize and make ideas really memorable

memorable it really helps it's an old trick it's a

it really helps it's an old trick it's a trick it's a writing trick right well it

trick it's a writing trick right well it also works you know before ways or uh

also works you know before ways or uh before almost but I don't I don't know

before almost but I don't I don't know what to say you know what I'm I'm

what to say you know what I'm I'm denigrating my work if I say it's a

denigrating my work if I say it's a trick no it's just something just the

trick no it's just something just the way things occur to me that's all it is

way things occur to me that's all it is one of the one of the um alliteration

one of the one of the um alliteration devices you use is also relates to

devices you use is also relates to limiting beliefs and how we can undo

limiting beliefs and how we can undo self-limiting beliefs with the five R's

self-limiting beliefs with the five R's yeah relabel reattribute refocus re re

yeah relabel reattribute refocus re re value and recreate yeah now from what I

value and recreate yeah now from what I understood of those relabeling is

the story and the belief that is limiting to us

limiting to us um well it taste something like um

um well it taste something like um eurocologist yeah I need to go to work I

eurocologist yeah I need to go to work I need to do this work really building as

need to do this work really building as I don't need to do this work I just have

I don't need to do this work I just have a belief that I need to do this work

a belief that I need to do this work okay so that real building just takes a

okay so that real building just takes a degree of separation from the

degree of separation from the behavior and and actually it's true it's

behavior and and actually it's true it's not that you need to do all the circuits

not that you need to do all the circuits you have this belief so the relay

you have this belief so the relay building just says it for what it is by

building just says it for what it is by the way I have to acknowledge that I

the way I have to acknowledge that I these these five R's only one in his

these these five R's only one in his mind I stole the other four from a

mind I stole the other four from a psychiatrist just I I mentioned that in

psychiatrist just I I mentioned that in the book but I find it very helpful

the book but I find it very helpful technique but the it was developed for

technique but the it was developed for people with obsessively compulsive

people with obsessively compulsive Tendencies so the relabel is not that I

Tendencies so the relabel is not that I have to wash my hands 100 times I just

have to wash my hands 100 times I just have a belief that I have to wash my

have a belief that I have to wash my hand a lot of times that's the context

hand a lot of times that's the context in which it was developed I think it

in which it was developed I think it works for all kinds of all kinds of

works for all kinds of all kinds of Dynamics and then if I and then so I've

Dynamics and then if I and then so I've re-labeled it

re-labeled it I don't have to work to feel a sense of

I don't have to work to feel a sense of validation but I have a belief that I do

validation but I have a belief that I do that's right and then I reattribute it

that's right and then I reattribute it which is the second R which means I get

which is the second R which means I get clear on where it's come from yeah so

clear on where it's come from yeah so let's say you have to believe that

let's say you have to believe that you're not worth it it's not too then

you're not worth it it's not too then I'm not worth it I just never believed

I'm not worth it I just never believed that I'm not worth it

that I'm not worth it okay or it may not be too then I'm not

okay or it may not be too then I'm not worth it but I do have a belief that I'm

worth it but I do have a belief that I'm not worth it re-um attribute means this

not worth it re-um attribute means this is an old brain circuit sending me an

is an old brain circuit sending me an old message it's got nothing to do with

old message it's got nothing to do with reality it has to do with some

reality it has to do with some experience that I had a long time ago

experience that I had a long time ago that's to be attribute you just say

that's to be attribute you just say where is it actually coming from there's

where is it actually coming from there's a circuit in your brain that's wired

a circuit in your brain that's wired with the message

with the message you're not worth it and it's going to

you're not worth it and it's going to keep repeating that message well you say

keep repeating that message well you say okay that's where it's coming from until

okay that's where it's coming from until I refocus which is the photo yeah so

I refocus which is the photo yeah so refocus is just to give yourself some

refocus is just to give yourself some space so if you ever say uh I need to go

space so if you ever say uh I need to go to work uh okay refocus means well for

to work uh okay refocus means well for five minutes

five minutes maybe in five minutes I'll go to work

maybe in five minutes I'll go to work but five minutes I won't I'm gonna put

but five minutes I won't I'm gonna put on some piece of music or go for a walk

on some piece of music or go for a walk or meditate or whatever so you refocus

or meditate or whatever so you refocus you put the attention somewhere else

you put the attention somewhere else right just just so that to prove to

right just just so that to prove to yourself but you actually have some

yourself but you actually have some agency over your brain

agency over your brain if only for five minutes if you have

if only for five minutes if you have this belief that I'm not worth it

this belief that I'm not worth it well you can go back to it in five

well you can go back to it in five minutes if you want just for five

minutes if you want just for five minutes though consider all the ways

minutes though consider all the ways they've made a contribution

they've made a contribution consider all the ways that people have

consider all the ways that people have acknowledged your

acknowledged your benign the presence in their lives

benign the presence in their lives the times that people uh have told you

the times that people uh have told you that they've loved you or that you told

that they've loved you or that you told somebody else just for five minutes hang

somebody else just for five minutes hang up with that five minutes later you want

up with that five minutes later you want to go back to this belief that or if you

to go back to this belief that or if you can't help going back to this belief

can't help going back to this belief that you know I said well that's okay

that you know I said well that's okay but at least create some space it's all

but at least create some space it's all about creating space between yourself

about creating space between yourself and these beliefs or these behaviors

and these beliefs or these behaviors and in that five minutes you're

and in that five minutes you're basically accepting new evidence to be

basically accepting new evidence to be true or you're proving that other

true or you're proving that other evidence is true I didn't need to go and

evidence is true I didn't need to go and work well you're also proving that you

work well you're also proving that you don't have to spend all your time

don't have to spend all your time subjected to those beliefs you can take

subjected to those beliefs you can take a Hiatus from it

a Hiatus from it at least for a while and they are not

at least for a while and they are not you they're not you yeah and then

you they're not you yeah and then revalue

revalue um

um reevalue it really what it should mean

reevalue it really what it should mean or maybe more accurately devalue because

or maybe more accurately devalue because you say what has been the actual value

you say what has been the actual value this belief that I'm not worth it what

this belief that I'm not worth it what has been the actual value of it in my

has been the actual value of it in my life or this tendency of mine to be a

life or this tendency of mine to be a workaholic what has been actual value

workaholic what has been actual value it made me tired it made me alienated or

it made me tired it made me alienated or it keeps me depressed so it keeps me

it keeps me depressed so it keeps me hopelessly trying to prove something

hopelessly trying to prove something which I can never prove to myself anyway

which I can never prove to myself anyway to external activity so that you

to external activity so that you actually look at what does it mean it's

actually look at what does it mean it's actually impact on your life

actually impact on your life what has been his real value

what has been his real value um sometimes the value is positive

um sometimes the value is positive though right like I think about my own

though right like I think about my own workaholic workaholism if that's the

workaholic workaholism if that's the term I think uh there's some there's

term I think uh there's some there's some positives here yeah a lot of

some positives here yeah a lot of negatives yeah well it is the positive

negatives yeah well it is the positive do the workaholism or is it due to your

do the workaholism or is it due to your capacity to work hard and and on behalf

capacity to work hard and and on behalf of a goal they're not the same

of a goal they're not the same new capacity to work hard to achieve a

new capacity to work hard to achieve a certain goal is simply a gift that you

certain goal is simply a gift that you have

have and something that maybe takes some

and something that maybe takes some discipline an application on your part

discipline an application on your part that's not working that's just

that's not working that's just a strong positive work ethic

a strong positive work ethic the recallism and you're driven to work

the recallism and you're driven to work you actually don't need to

you actually don't need to it's funny because it reminds me of an

it's funny because it reminds me of an analogy I've been talking about in the

analogy I've been talking about in the last couple of episodes of this podcast

last couple of episodes of this podcast of the the distinction between being

of the the distinction between being driven and being dragged yeah it's like

driven and being dragged yeah it's like am I which side of the Lorry am I flying

am I which side of the Lorry am I flying down the motorway am I tied to the front

down the motorway am I tied to the front and am I running and pulling the Lorry

and am I running and pulling the Lorry or am I just like my ankles attached to

or am I just like my ankles attached to the back of the Lorry as it flies down

the back of the Lorry as it flies down the motorway because I'm being dragged

the motorway because I'm being dragged but if I may I would say that neither of

but if I may I would say that neither of those are particularly desirable

but but but but it's the distinction that I made before between being driven

that I made before between being driven and being called yeah because if you

and being called yeah because if you called it's if I call you

called it's if I call you say Stephen would you come and have

say Stephen would you come and have dinner with me you can say yes you can

dinner with me you can say yes you can say no I just gave you a call and you

say no I just gave you a call and you could say literally I'm talking about

could say literally I'm talking about calling you know telephone call you know

calling you know telephone call you know you can say yes you can say no it's a

you can say yes you can say no it's a decision now but you're the one who's

decision now but you're the one who's making the decision yeah when you're

making the decision yeah when you're dragged or pushed or pulled you're not

dragged or pushed or pulled you're not making the decision I'm a slave to the

making the decision I'm a slave to the decision to that that's right to the

decision to that that's right to the activity

activity one of the um one of the really

one of the um one of the really interesting things I wanted to talk to

interesting things I wanted to talk to you about is is ADHD yeah

you about is is ADHD yeah um I've had a few of my friends and my

um I've had a few of my friends and my close Friendship Circle diagnosed with

close Friendship Circle diagnosed with ADHD recently

ADHD recently um and then I looked into some of the

um and then I looked into some of the statistics around ADHD and I found this

statistics around ADHD and I found this statistic that said in the 1980s one in

statistic that said in the 1980s one in 20 U.S children were diagnosed with ADHD

20 U.S children were diagnosed with ADHD today the number is roughly one in nine

today the number is roughly one in nine yeah

yeah um

um and just generally you know around me

and just generally you know around me there's it feels like and this could

there's it feels like and this could just be because of my own little narrow

just be because of my own little narrow Circle or it could be because of a wider

Circle or it could be because of a wider thing happening in society it feels like

thing happening in society it feels like there's been an increase in diagnosis of

there's been an increase in diagnosis of mental illness and things like ADHD and

mental illness and things like ADHD and the causes when I spoke to my friend

the causes when I spoke to my friend about what he believed the cause of um

about what he believed the cause of um his ADHD was and he's posted this on

his ADHD was and he's posted this on LinkedIn and talks about it very

LinkedIn and talks about it very publicly now

publicly now um it seemed to point to he seemed to

um it seemed to point to he seemed to believe it was relating to

believe it was relating to some kind of genetic or heritable

some kind of genetic or heritable um Factor now the issue the issue that

um Factor now the issue the issue that I've sort of been contending with myself

I've sort of been contending with myself and why I spoke to Johann Hari about

and why I spoke to Johann Hari about this and others about this is

this and others about this is if I if I am to accept that then I am I

if I if I am to accept that then I am I feel like I'm accepting that we're being

feel like I'm accepting that we're being born somewhat broken and this is almost

born somewhat broken and this is almost what Johann Hari talked about in in the

what Johann Hari talked about in in the early stages of his teenage years where

early stages of his teenage years where he he was made to believe that there was

he he was made to believe that there was this chemical imbalance in his brain and

this chemical imbalance in his brain and therefore he was born broken and here's

therefore he was born broken and here's the medication to solve it yeah

the medication to solve it yeah so but I don't want I don't believe that

so but I don't want I don't believe that I don't I don't personally believe that

I don't I don't personally believe that we're we're born broken well um and

we're we're born broken well um and anybody interested in the subject

anybody interested in the subject my daughter I think Joanne and actually

my daughter I think Joanne and actually this is to read my book and it is called

this is to read my book and it is called scattered minds and um I was diagnosed

scattered minds and um I was diagnosed within my 50s and so were a couple of my

within my 50s and so were a couple of my kids but but I never bought into the

kids but but I never bought into the idea this is a genetic disease or that

idea this is a genetic disease or that it's a disease at all genetic or

it's a disease at all genetic or otherwise

otherwise um now as for the rising number of

um now as for the rising number of um people being diagnosed with it there

um people being diagnosed with it there could be two reasons at least one is

could be two reasons at least one is we're better diagnosis so before we

we're better diagnosis so before we wouldn't have noticed it but now we are

wouldn't have noticed it but now we are or genuinely there's more people who are

or genuinely there's more people who are having trouble in certain ways such as

having trouble in certain ways such as with attention and impulse control and

with attention and impulse control and so on

so on but either way the fact is that many

but either way the fact is that many more children are being diagnosed and

more children are being diagnosed and medicated

medicated for this condition particularly in the

for this condition particularly in the U.S but also increasingly uh here in the

U.S but also increasingly uh here in the UK as well and in China and elsewhere

UK as well and in China and elsewhere now

now um as I said earlier if we the fact is

um as I said earlier if we the fact is here's the actual reality nobody's ever

here's the actual reality nobody's ever found the gene for ADHD nobody's ever

found the gene for ADHD nobody's ever found the gene that says if you have

found the gene that says if you have this Gene you're gonna have ADHD no such

this Gene you're gonna have ADHD no such thing has ever been found no group of

thing has ever been found no group of genes ever been found that says if you

genes ever been found that says if you can have this Gene you're gonna have

can have this Gene you're gonna have this condition nor ever will be and no

this condition nor ever will be and no such gene or group of genes have ever

such gene or group of genes have ever been found that if you don't have these

been found that if you don't have these genes you will not have the condition

genes you will not have the condition now there are some diseases there are

now there are some diseases there are genetic one runs in my family muscular

genetic one runs in my family muscular dystrophy if you have the gene you're

dystrophy if you have the gene you're going to have the disease my mother had

going to have the disease my mother had it my aunt had it

it my aunt had it that's a genetic condition and if you

that's a genetic condition and if you have the gene you'll have the disease

have the gene you'll have the disease very rare those kind of diseases

very rare those kind of diseases no there are some genes that the more

no there are some genes that the more them you have

them you have the more likely you are to have any

the more likely you are to have any number of mental health diagnoses ADHD

number of mental health diagnoses ADHD depression anxiety even psychosis

depression anxiety even psychosis bipolar Illness but there's no group of

bipolar Illness but there's no group of genes or set of genes or Gene that

genes or set of genes or Gene that themselves determine any one condition

themselves determine any one condition as a matter of fact you can have those

as a matter of fact you can have those same genes and not have any condition

same genes and not have any condition whatsoever

whatsoever so something is being passed on but it's

so something is being passed on but it's not any kind of condition that's being

not any kind of condition that's being passed on what's being passed on is

passed on what's being passed on is sensitivity and the more sensitive you

sensitivity and the more sensitive you are the more you're gonna feel whatever

are the more you're gonna feel whatever is going on in the environment so you

is going on in the environment so you take the same sensitive kid with these

take the same sensitive kid with these genes that confer greater sensitivity of

genes that confer greater sensitivity of them and sensitive means to feel from

them and sensitive means to feel from the Latin word to feel sincere the more

the Latin word to feel sincere the more sensitive you are the more you're going

sensitive you are the more you're going to feel the more you feel the more bad

to feel the more you feel the more bad stuff happens the more pain you're going

stuff happens the more pain you're going to be in and the more compensating

to be in and the more compensating you're gonna have to do

you're gonna have to do the same time with those same genes if

the same time with those same genes if you tweeted well and you grow up in a

you tweeted well and you grow up in a healthy environment you just be creative

healthy environment you just be creative and happy and joyful and a leader and an

and happy and joyful and a leader and an artist or a shaman or or a very creative

artist or a shaman or or a very creative CEO or whatever you're going to be so

CEO or whatever you're going to be so the genes don't determine they make you

the genes don't determine they make you more sensitive to their environment no

more sensitive to their environment no if you go back to what I said about the

if you go back to what I said about the tuning out it's simply a defense

tuning out it's simply a defense so the more sensitive you are

so the more sensitive you are and the stress in the environment the

and the stress in the environment the more you're going to feel the stress the

more you're going to feel the stress the more you're gonna need to escape from it

more you're gonna need to escape from it by tuning out

by tuning out so he didn't inherit ADHD you inherited

so he didn't inherit ADHD you inherited a sensitivity that makes it more likely

a sensitivity that makes it more likely under stressful circumstances that you

under stressful circumstances that you revert to tuning out when your brain is

revert to tuning out when your brain is developing which by the way is an organ

developing which by the way is an organ that develops physiologically under the

that develops physiologically under the impact of the emotional environment

impact of the emotional environment so if there's a lot of stress in a

so if there's a lot of stress in a child's life and what I'm saying is in

child's life and what I'm saying is in this Society is that more and more

this Society is that more and more parents are stressed not because they

parents are stressed not because they don't love their kids not because

don't love their kids not because they're not doing their way utmost to

they're not doing their way utmost to provide for them but because they're

provide for them but because they're more stressed to all kinds of social

more stressed to all kinds of social political economic reasons I mean if you

political economic reasons I mean if you look at inflation in Britain is a high

look at inflation in Britain is a high risk right now more people are going to

risk right now more people are going to be stressed financially

be stressed financially Financial stress on the parents

Financial stress on the parents translates into physiological stress in

translates into physiological stress in the children

the children those children may want to tune out

those children may want to tune out because it's too much to be in their

because it's too much to be in their present some of them will be diagnosed

present some of them will be diagnosed with ADHD

with ADHD they didn't inherit anything in terms of

they didn't inherit anything in terms of a disease they're just reacting to the

a disease they're just reacting to the environment

environment so if we're diagnosing more and more

so if we're diagnosing more and more kids these days I think it's because the

kids these days I think it's because the parenting environment has been much more

parenting environment has been much more stressed and that's backed up in this

stressed and that's backed up in this book where you mentioned that study of

book where you mentioned that study of 65 000 parents yeah um and their

65 000 parents yeah um and their children with ADHD right

children with ADHD right you say well there's more trauma in

you say well there's more trauma in their lives yeah so the children they do

their lives yeah so the children they do a study with 65 000. I forget

a study with 65 000. I forget I read it yeah yeah

I read it yeah yeah but many thousands of kids yeah so

but many thousands of kids yeah so because I found that to be really really

because I found that to be really really sort of um supportive of what you just

sort of um supportive of what you just said where I I'm again I'm I'm saying

said where I I'm again I'm I'm saying this from memory but a study of 65 000

this from memory but a study of 65 000 um children and their parents and they

um children and their parents and they found that those parents who had more

found that those parents who had more adverse

adverse um traumatic events in their lives ended

um traumatic events in their lives ended up having having a higher chance of

up having having a higher chance of having a child that had ADHD well look

having a child that had ADHD well look if you look at um the United States at

if you look at um the United States at least

least poor kids and kids of so-called color

poor kids and kids of so-called color are much more like to be diagnosed with

are much more like to be diagnosed with ADHD interesting no why would that be

ADHD interesting no why would that be the case because they're living with so

the case because they're living with so much more stress

much more stress men as well right men as well adults you

men as well right men as well adults you mean men yeah so I read that more men

mean men yeah so I read that more men more boys more men are diagnosed partly

more boys more men are diagnosed partly because in men the the symptom of

because in men the the symptom of hyperactivity seems to be there more

hyperactivity seems to be there more often so when a kid is sitting in school

often so when a kid is sitting in school and the cancer still that's obvious the

and the cancer still that's obvious the teacher will notice it the girl who's

teacher will notice it the girl who's kind of dreamy and tunes out

kind of dreamy and tunes out kind of Fades away at the back of the

kind of Fades away at the back of the class she doesn't create any problems

class she doesn't create any problems so they don't then that's one of the

so they don't then that's one of the reasons but also

reasons but also um

um funny to say but young boys infant boys

funny to say but young boys infant boys are more sensitive to a mental

are more sensitive to a mental environmental pressure than girls are

environmental pressure than girls are for some strange reason so they're more

for some strange reason so they're more likely to be affected by these factors

likely to be affected by these factors Singapore like that in the class that's

Singapore like that in the class that's a fidgety that has a poor attention span

a fidgety that has a poor attention span bad response to stress we medicate what

bad response to stress we medicate what is the impact of that approach to

is the impact of that approach to treatment medicating super early

treatment medicating super early I used to

I used to when I worked as a physician I would

when I worked as a physician I would certainly prescribe medication sometimes

certainly prescribe medication sometimes it's a question of who's prescribing it

it's a question of who's prescribing it and what intention

and what intention if I understand that the real problem in

if I understand that the real problem in this child is not that there's anything

this child is not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with the child

intrinsically wrong with the child but that they were developed in a

but that they were developed in a stressed environment and those stresses

stressed environment and those stresses are still acting on them

are still acting on them and one of the stresses is that parents

and one of the stresses is that parents don't understand the kids behaviors and

don't understand the kids behaviors and they tend to react rather harshly

they tend to react rather harshly then if I change if I can help the

then if I change if I can help the parent understand the sensitive nature

parent understand the sensitive nature of their child

of their child which also means that when positive

which also means that when positive changes occur in the environment the kid

changes occur in the environment the kid will be very responsive to that as well

will be very responsive to that as well if the parents can create a positive

if the parents can create a positive accepting understanding atmosphere in

accepting understanding atmosphere in the home and work on their own stresses

the home and work on their own stresses so they don't unconsciously pass them on

so they don't unconsciously pass them on to the kids that kid will change very

to the kids that kid will change very quickly

quickly and I say well if in the short term the

and I say well if in the short term the child wants the medication to function

child wants the medication to function better and no child should be forced to

better and no child should be forced to take medication and medication are never

take medication and medication are never the final answer at the very most their

the final answer at the very most their stop cap there's no proof whatsoever

stop cap there's no proof whatsoever that medications help anybody heal from

that medications help anybody heal from ADHD they simply suppress symptoms which

ADHD they simply suppress symptoms which may be helpful in the short term but for

may be helpful in the short term but for God's sakes go to work on the long-term

God's sakes go to work on the long-term development of that child and what does

development of that child and what does that mean create the conditions image

that mean create the conditions image healthy development takes place that

healthy development takes place that child will do very very well if you

child will do very very well if you think the problem is a disease they're

think the problem is a disease they're just going to medicate away the symptoms

just going to medicate away the symptoms of

of what about fat adults they might I'm

what about fat adults they might I'm thinking of my friend that he's he's in

thinking of my friend that he's he's in his 30s and he got the diagnosis of ADHD

his 30s and he got the diagnosis of ADHD in his 30s yeah he's been given this

in his 30s yeah he's been given this medication which he presumably has to

medication which he presumably has to take for Life he's told me the

take for Life he's told me the medication has helped helped him Focus

medication has helped helped him Focus this helps him Focus has helped him

this helps him Focus has helped him Focus yeah it's been a game changer

Focus yeah it's been a game changer Steve you know yeah yeah I I've taken

Steve you know yeah yeah I I've taken medication myself for ADHD and it helped

medication myself for ADHD and it helped me focus it helped me write my first

me focus it helped me write my first book

book um I didn't dig it for this one as a

um I didn't dig it for this one as a matter of fact more recently when I was

matter of fact more recently when I was beginning to write the medication I

beginning to write the medication I thought maybe I would take a bit of

thought maybe I would take a bit of stimulant like I used to and just to see

stimulant like I used to and just to see if it helps me write the book better all

if it helps me write the book better all it did all it did is give me side

it did all it did is give me side effects my brain has changed I don't

effects my brain has changed I don't need it anymore you know so I I would

need it anymore you know so I I would say to your friend if the medication is

say to your friend if the medication is helping right now and it's not causing

helping right now and it's not causing you side effects

you side effects I got nothing against it and

I got nothing against it and you might want to give it a break every

you might want to give it a break every you know every weekend if you don't you

you know every weekend if you don't you know you might want to use it for when

know you might want to use it for when you're having to work or having to you

you're having to work or having to you know they concentrate but it's up to you

know they concentrate but it's up to you if it helps you function take it but go

if it helps you function take it but go to work on the traumas and stresses that

to work on the traumas and stresses that are driving the ADHD going back to your

are driving the ADHD going back to your childhood

childhood and you know I may say my book in ADHD

and you know I may say my book in ADHD scattered Minds does outline some ways

scattered Minds does outline some ways to do that

to do that um you might find that you don't need

um you might find that you don't need the medication uh so much anymore or not

the medication uh so much anymore or not at all perhaps number one number two

at all perhaps number one number two even if you do your life will be so much

even if you do your life will be so much Fuller and so much more um less stressed

Fuller and so much more um less stressed if you deal with the underlying factors

if you deal with the underlying factors then if you simply medicate the symptom

then if you simply medicate the symptom is there I always think in life there's

is there I always think in life there's a cost for all these things we use to

a cost for all these things we use to medicate and stimulate ourselves and

medicate and stimulate ourselves and yeah so I always always ask myself like

yeah so I always always ask myself like there's got to be it's gonna say there's

there's got to be it's gonna say there's got to be a catch here and even for

got to be a catch here and even for coffee I'm like what's the catch it

coffee I'm like what's the catch it can't just be all up and positive and

can't just be all up and positive and with with my friend when he said when he

with with my friend when he said when he had the conversation with me about being

had the conversation with me about being on this this medication for life my

on this this medication for life my first thought is like okay what's the

first thought is like okay what's the cost it's going to make you really

cost it's going to make you really focused and better at work but what is

focused and better at work but what is the what is the long-term cost of

the what is the long-term cost of I had to talk to your friend friend

I had to talk to your friend friend those are good questions to ask

those are good questions to ask when I took medication it made me a much

when I took medication it made me a much more efficient workaholic you know it

more efficient workaholic you know it did nothing for my recallism just made

did nothing for my recallism just made me much better at it because I could

me much better at it because I could stay up later now and I was more focused

stay up later now and I was more focused I get even more things done you know so

I get even more things done you know so um you got to deal with these other

um you got to deal with these other issues did you I did did I deal with

issues did you I did did I deal with them yes I have and there's so much more

them yes I have and there's so much more like like dealing with the trauma like

like like dealing with the trauma like I'm telling you if your friends got ADHD

I'm telling you if your friends got ADHD I can tell you heated stressed early for

I can tell you heated stressed early for years and his parent was her parents

years and his parent was her parents were strapped his pants were stressed so

were strapped his pants were stressed so deal with that deal with what conditions

deal with that deal with what conditions are you creating now in your life that

are you creating now in your life that create more stress for you

create more stress for you are you taking care of your body are you

are you taking care of your body are you exercising are you eating well do you

exercising are you eating well do you get out there in nature nature is a

get out there in nature nature is a certain kind of Harmony to it which

certain kind of Harmony to it which actually calms the mind you know so are

actually calms the mind you know so are you doing all these things if you're not

you doing all these things if you're not all you're doing is medicating a symptom

all you're doing is medicating a symptom if you are taking the medication

if you are taking the medication specifically to help you focus but

specifically to help you focus but you're working on his other issues

you're working on his other issues you have a much full life and you may

you have a much full life and you may find you don't need the medication after

find you don't need the medication after all you you came off the medication for

all you you came off the medication for your add yeah

your add yeah um because I'm a

um because I'm a because I'm just not that medically well

because I'm just not that medically well versed what's the difference between AD

versed what's the difference between AD ADD and ADHD it's you know it's a kind

ADD and ADHD it's you know it's a kind of a confusion it is just simply means

of a confusion it is just simply means that the hyperactivity is present okay

that the hyperactivity is present okay so you can have ADD with or without

so you can have ADD with or without hyperactivity okay so the actual you

hyperactivity okay so the actual you know proper way to divide it is a d

and in Brackets HD so that in indicating that the hyperactivity may or may not be

that the hyperactivity may or may not be there got you so you you you were on

there got you so you you you were on medication you did the work you know not

medication you did the work you know not on medication yeah

on medication yeah um do you still have the symptoms of ADD

um do you still have the symptoms of ADD to a certain degree but not in the way

to a certain degree but not in the way that anyway Bloods my life like one

that anyway Bloods my life like one thing I completely be sure that when I

thing I completely be sure that when I go on a speaker I'm going to lose

go on a speaker I'm going to lose something I'm going to lose my

something I'm going to lose my my portable electrical

my portable electrical tooth cleaner where I'm gonna in this

tooth cleaner where I'm gonna in this case I left my rain jacket in Budapest

case I left my rain jacket in Budapest when I came here and I I you can take it

when I came here and I I you can take it for granted that my attention will just

for granted that my attention will just not notice something that I haven't

not notice something that I haven't packed yet that's okay I'm going back to

packed yet that's okay I'm going back to Budapest next week so I get to get my

Budapest next week so I get to get my rain jacket back but sometimes it's the

rain jacket back but sometimes it's the cost of being me so what you know so no

cost of being me so what you know so no not in every way

not in every way but that's not the point nobody's life

but that's not the point nobody's life has to be perfect it just has to be a

has to be perfect it just has to be a life that I I want to live and I can

life that I I want to live and I can enjoy living

enjoy living that I have you know so who cares if

that I have you know so who cares if sometimes I forget something or I lose

sometimes I forget something or I lose something or even if I'm listening to a

something or even if I'm listening to a symphony and I can't keep my attention

symphony and I can't keep my attention on it okay so I can't

on it okay so I can't this you talk about there's some toxic

this you talk about there's some toxic Society yeah

do you think society's getting more toxic and if so why what measure shall

toxic and if so why what measure shall we use you know if you use the measure

we use you know if you use the measure of a number of kids being medicated

of a number of kids being medicated a number of adults having chronic

a number of adults having chronic illness autoimmune disease a number of

illness autoimmune disease a number of students University students

students University students being depressed contemplating suicide

being depressed contemplating suicide number of children in the United States

number of children in the United States killing themselves

killing themselves um

um the number of people on medications of

the number of people on medications of all kinds

all kinds the degree of safety that people have in

the degree of safety that people have in society the the rancor or peace that

society the the rancor or peace that characterizes political discourse in

characterizes political discourse in this world the

intolerable fact that eight people in the world I think own as much as the

the world I think own as much as the bottom half

bottom half as the bottom 3.5 billion

as the bottom 3.5 billion you know if I look at all those things

you know if I look at all those things by those measures if you look at what's

by those measures if you look at what's happening to the environment

happening to the environment if I look at the fact that the people

if I look at the fact that the people who are the worst polluters in the

who are the worst polluters in the environment also happen to be the most

environment also happen to be the most successful people you know by a certain

successful people you know by a certain measure of success

measure of success um

um by any number of parameters if I look at

by any number of parameters if I look at um

um oh

oh racism still affects the lives of so

racism still affects the lives of so many people

many people um and and not just affected in an

um and and not just affected in an emotional sense but actually

emotional sense but actually physiologically you know

it's a this is a toxic society and those measures are getting worse they're not

measures are getting worse they're not getting better and inequality is getting

getting better and inequality is getting worse here in the UK and elsewhere

worse here in the UK and elsewhere so yeah I think it's getting more toxic

so yeah I think it's getting more toxic what's the antidote well

what's the antidote well um how about we go back to this word

um how about we go back to this word awareness like like people just have to

awareness like like people just have to get that this is how it is and in the

get that this is how it is and in the last chapter I don't lay out a political

last chapter I don't lay out a political program you know I don't see that as my

program you know I don't see that as my role to do that I have my own political

role to do that I have my own political ideas and preferences but I don't want

ideas and preferences but I don't want to impose them on the reader but I do

to impose them on the reader but I do say

say first of all we have to lose our

first of all we have to lose our illusions

illusions that this is that this normality is

that this is that this normality is actually healthy or natural we have to

actually healthy or natural we have to just get

just get cognizant that what we consider to be

cognizant that what we consider to be normal is actually bad for us

normal is actually bad for us um number one number two

um number one number two um

um just if we introduced the concept of

just if we introduced the concept of trauma into Health Care

trauma into Health Care like the average doctor again strange to

like the average doctor again strange to say doesn't hear a single lecture in

say doesn't hear a single lecture in their medical training about the impact

their medical training about the impact of trauma on physical or mental health

of trauma on physical or mental health which is astonishing given that it was a

which is astonishing given that it was a British psychologist Dr Richard benthal

British psychologist Dr Richard benthal who pointed out not that many years ago

who pointed out not that many years ago that the evidence linking what we call

that the evidence linking what we call mental illness and childhood adversity

mental illness and childhood adversity is about as strong as the evidence

is about as strong as the evidence linking smoking and lung cancer

linking smoking and lung cancer and the average physician doesn't hear a

and the average physician doesn't hear a word about that it's astonishing

word about that it's astonishing education teachers if they understood

education teachers if they understood Child Development brain development the

Child Development brain development the developmental factors that I that

developmental factors that I that children need that I

children need that I cite in this book and if they understood

cite in this book and if they understood how trauma affects his capacity to learn

how trauma affects his capacity to learn to pay attention

to pay attention and to behave in functional ways The

and to behave in functional ways The Daily Telegraph

Daily Telegraph here in London not that long ago was

here in London not that long ago was bemoaning the fact that kids aren't

bemoaning the fact that kids aren't caned anymore in schools

caned anymore in schools I mean they were but they were but they

I mean they were but they were but they were moaning about is that we no longer

were moaning about is that we no longer traumatized kids quite as harshly as we

traumatized kids quite as harshly as we used to

used to that's what it that's all it does caning

that's what it that's all it does caning so if teachers understood that the

so if teachers understood that the behaviors on the part of children are

behaviors on the part of children are actually manifestations of emotional

actually manifestations of emotional dynamics of frustration and needs not

dynamics of frustration and needs not being met and and very often of trauma

being met and and very often of trauma that would change the educational system

that would change the educational system if the legal system understood it

if the legal system understood it that that most people facing the

that that most people facing the criminal justice system are actually

criminal justice system are actually traumatized people they could actually

traumatized people they could actually be rehabilitated uh and and and healed

be rehabilitated uh and and and healed if we understood that instead of just

if we understood that instead of just exposing them to harsh punishments we

exposing them to harsh punishments we actually treated them like human beings

actually treated them like human beings who may have done things that are

who may have done things that are unacceptable but that came from traumas

unacceptable but that came from traumas they couldn't have helped and that they

they couldn't have helped and that they can be helped back to

can be helped back to um healthy functioning as we know from

um healthy functioning as we know from lots of experience just that little

lots of experience just that little trauma information would change society

trauma information would change society so that's what I can offer as a

so that's what I can offer as a physician what about parents what do

physician what about parents what do they need to know yeah well if parents

they need to know yeah well if parents actually understood first of all

actually understood first of all that the first three years are

that the first three years are everything that if if they get the

everything that if if they get the template right in the first three years

template right in the first three years they can hardly set a foot wrong

they can hardly set a foot wrong afterwards

afterwards but in the other hand if we're not

but in the other hand if we're not present for our kids emotionally if we

present for our kids emotionally if we don't understand them if we don't see

don't understand them if we don't see them

them if we don't

if we don't attune to their emotional states we're

attune to their emotional states we're going to hurt them

going to hurt them and if they understood what the needs of

and if they understood what the needs of children are when I mentioned some of

children are when I mentioned some of them for play for

them for play for experience of all emotions for

experience of all emotions for unconditional loving attachment for the

unconditional loving attachment for the child being able to rest from having to

child being able to rest from having to work to make the relationship work

work to make the relationship work so the child doesn't have to be good or

so the child doesn't have to be good or nice or beautiful or or or or successful

nice or beautiful or or or or successful or they just have to be

approval and acceptance on them if parents just understood that

parents just understood that and if they understood how important it

and if they understood how important it is that they take care of their own

is that they take care of their own emotional needs so that a child doesn't

emotional needs so that a child doesn't have to take responsibility

have to take responsibility like perhaps you did for the parent

like perhaps you did for the parent stresses

stresses your parents understood all that and if

your parents understood all that and if Society actually understood her

Society actually understood her importance parenting was and it

importance parenting was and it supported parents who needed the support

supported parents who needed the support to be there for their kids

to be there for their kids it wouldn't be financially

it wouldn't be financially costly it would save us a lot of money

costly it would save us a lot of money not to mention we live a lot more

not to mention we live a lot more happier kids

happier kids who don't need to be on medications so

who don't need to be on medications so yeah and lastly schools schools well

yeah and lastly schools schools well again like I said about Educators if

again like I said about Educators if Educators well here's the thing if you

Educators well here's the thing if you look at how does the human brain develop

look at how does the human brain develop I quite an article I quote an article

I quite an article I quote an article from the Harvard Center on the

from the Harvard Center on the developing child that appeared in a

developing child that appeared in a journal of Pediatrics official Journal

journal of Pediatrics official Journal of the American Pediatric Academy in

of the American Pediatric Academy in 2012 February

2012 February the article said that the human being

the article said that the human being developed it to do a complex process

developed it to do a complex process that begins before birth and continues

that begins before birth and continues into adulthood okay now that means a we

into adulthood okay now that means a we take care of the emotional needs of

take care of the emotional needs of pregnant women

pregnant women number one number two if it conditions

number one number two if it conditions into adulthood continues into adulthood

into adulthood continues into adulthood then the job of the schools if they

then the job of the schools if they understand it right is not to teach kids

understand it right is not to teach kids what year

what year the ball of the battle of Australis took

the ball of the battle of Australis took place or the ball of Battle of Waterloo

place or the ball of Battle of Waterloo um or or you know algebra any of any of

um or or you know algebra any of any of that stuff the most important job of the

that stuff the most important job of the schools is to promote healthy brain

schools is to promote healthy brain development

development with a child who's with healthy brain

with a child who's with healthy brain development will actually be naturally

development will actually be naturally curious they'll want to know about

curious they'll want to know about history that we came to uh to absorb the

history that we came to uh to absorb the skills of algebra they'll want to know

skills of algebra they'll want to know how to use a computer and they'll want

how to use a computer and they'll want to know

to know um how to write properly a kid will want

um how to write properly a kid will want to do that spontaneously because Mastery

to do that spontaneously because Mastery and and learning these are human hungers

and and learning these are human hungers the human needs

the human needs so

so in other words the most important job of

in other words the most important job of the schools is not to cram the kids full

the schools is not to cram the kids full of information

of information but to help them develop healthy brains

but to help them develop healthy brains what does that require

what does that require safety above all lack of pressure

safety above all lack of pressure healthy relationship with nurturing

healthy relationship with nurturing adults

adults and if the kids are not going to spend

and if the kids are not going to spend their time with the adult but they with

their time with the adult but they with the parents which they can't in this

the parents which they can't in this Society like they used to through a

Society like they used to through a human evolution let them spend their

human evolution let them spend their time with adults who are emotionally

time with adults who are emotionally nurturing and emotionally penetrating

nurturing and emotionally penetrating the attentive to the child's needs now

the attentive to the child's needs now you're going to have schools that are

you're going to have schools that are going to really kids teach kids

going to really kids teach kids something and where kids will want to

something and where kids will want to learn and it's very simple

learn and it's very simple it doesn't take more training and it

it doesn't take more training and it doesn't take more well they take some

doesn't take more well they take some training perhaps but not more than what

training perhaps but not more than what teachers are getting now so that's sort

teachers are getting now so that's sort of a take in education

of a take in education I was thinking there about the

I was thinking there about the importance of doing

importance of doing certain psychological tests on certain

certain psychological tests on certain teachers because if they are also

teachers because if they are also passing on a generational cycle yeah of

passing on a generational cycle yeah of their own at a time when my brain is

their own at a time when my brain is still being developed they can have a

still being developed they can have a huge impact positively or negatively on

huge impact positively or negatively on my absolutely on my life in the same way

my absolutely on my life in the same way that my parents could absolutely uh it's

that my parents could absolutely uh it's quite remarkable teachers don't know how

quite remarkable teachers don't know how much power they have because of the

much power they have because of the vulnerability of the young brain

vulnerability of the young brain and well-meaning teachers

and well-meaning teachers it will sometimes behave in ways that

it will sometimes behave in ways that are really hurtful to kids just because

are really hurtful to kids just because they don't get it not because they don't

they don't get it not because they don't mean well so I've had many adults sit in

mean well so I've had many adults sit in my office

my office say with tears in their eyes about

say with tears in their eyes about something a teacher said to them three

something a teacher said to them three decades before

decades before like the classroom

like the classroom the class will continue and Johnny comes

the class will continue and Johnny comes back to Earth

back to Earth this kind of sarcastic little dig

this kind of sarcastic little dig can under my child's dignity and sense

can under my child's dignity and sense of self so easily so if teachers just

of self so easily so if teachers just understood how powerful they are and how

understood how powerful they are and how important they are in helping to promote

important they are in helping to promote healthy brain development

healthy brain development I think the profession would take in a

I think the profession would take in a whole new meaning that would be much

whole new meaning that would be much more satisfying than it is right now

more satisfying than it is right now it's not the fault of individual

it's not the fault of individual teachers we're talking about a system

teachers we're talking about a system that isn't that is toxic

okay but we have closing tradition on this podcast oh okay where the previous

this podcast oh okay where the previous guest asks a question

guest asks a question for the next guest I didn't get to see

for the next guest I didn't get to see it until I opened the book so there's a

it until I opened the book so there's a question written here for you before I

question written here for you before I ask you this question I did have a

ask you this question I did have a question of my own which was you know

question of my own which was you know you're in your 70s now

you're in your 70s now um

um what are you still working on in terms

what are you still working on in terms of your own traumas is there anything

of your own traumas is there anything even though you're you're in a later

even though you're you're in a later stage of your own life that you you're

stage of your own life that you you're still sort of struggling with as it

still sort of struggling with as it relates to that Puppet Master pulling on

relates to that Puppet Master pulling on the strings and

the strings and that kind of analogy that we gave

that kind of analogy that we gave earlier

earlier yeah

um it's a sense of peace

a sense of peace when I'm not doing anything

just being the capacity just to be

um that's something I'm still looking for not well not looking

still looking for not well not looking for like I was looking for a lost puppy

for like I was looking for a lost puppy but

but I'm still searching myself for

I'm still searching myself for and where exactly does that come from in

and where exactly does that come from in your own diagnosis

oh what if I tell you when I find out I mean I can give you a textbook answer

I mean I can give you a textbook answer but it wouldn't be authentic okay

but it wouldn't be authentic okay so you don't know

so you don't know entirely I have some senses I have some

entirely I have some senses I have some ideas and then

ideas and then um

um it

it foreign

it really means being okay with my mind the way it is

being okay with my mind the way it is and not needing it to be any different

and not needing it to be any different that's what it would mean

that's what it would mean which means if I'm sitting there

which means if I'm sitting there for five minutes I don't know how to

for five minutes I don't know how to reach for the cell phone to occupy my

reach for the cell phone to occupy my mind

mind and now in the midst of this busy book

and now in the midst of this busy book tour and all the speaking I do I don't I

tour and all the speaking I do I don't I don't do enough to to take care of that

don't do enough to to take care of that quiet

quiet little voice inside myself I don't

little voice inside myself I don't I think it would take some attention

I think it would take some attention I can't either though I can't sit for

I can't either though I can't sit for two I can five minutes I couldn't sit

two I can five minutes I couldn't sit for five seconds without grabbing my

for five seconds without grabbing my phone that's weird I noticed the other

phone that's weird I noticed the other day that I was like going to the toilet

day that I was like going to the toilet and I had no intention of using my phone

and I had no intention of using my phone in the toilet yeah but I went to get my

in the toilet yeah but I went to get my phone because you can't be alone with

phone because you can't be alone with yourself yeah I can't be alone with

yourself yeah I can't be alone with myself yeah I can't

myself yeah I can't sitting for 30 seconds you know my brain

sitting for 30 seconds you know my brain is that is that because they've built

is that is that because they've built these algorithms to to stimulate my

these algorithms to to stimulate my dopamine or is it because there's

dopamine or is it because there's something in me I guess it goes back to

something in me I guess it goes back to a point about addiction well it's both I

a point about addiction well it's both I mean they're they're certainly creative

mean they're they're certainly creative algorithms to stimulate your brain and

algorithms to stimulate your brain and get you hooked on that dopamine head

get you hooked on that dopamine head you're sure if we should they call that

you're sure if we should they call that neural marketing neural marketing can

neural marketing neural marketing can you get that yeah they work on your

you get that yeah they work on your brain to get you know to get you

brain to get you know to get you addicted but it also comes from an

addicted but it also comes from an earlier discomfort with the self that

earlier discomfort with the self that predates

predates any cell phone use it goes back to

any cell phone use it goes back to earliest childhood where it couldn't

earliest childhood where it couldn't have been comfortable to be

have been comfortable to be just with yourself because of

just with yourself because of circumstances

interesting interesting yeah my because I've Got Friends that don't have the

I've Got Friends that don't have the same the same addiction with their cell

same the same addiction with their cell phones that I do they they can take it

phones that I do they they can take it or leave it they put it outside their

or leave it they put it outside their bedroom when they go to bed charging in

bedroom when they go to bed charging in the kitchen I'm like how I have to hold

the kitchen I'm like how I have to hold mine like my pillow yeah exactly well

mine like my pillow yeah exactly well like your little safety pillow and

like your little safety pillow and what's the first thing you do when you

what's the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning I grab it with

wake up in the morning I grab it with one eye open and all that gunk in my eye

one eye open and all that gunk in my eye I'm like trying to just you know yeah

I'm like trying to just you know yeah yeah we'll have if both you and I work

yeah we'll have if both you and I work are not doing that so much okay I'll

are not doing that so much okay I'll give you my number you'll let man we

give you my number you'll let man we should we shouldn't discuss by phone how

should we shouldn't discuss by phone how we're getting on with this that's just

we're getting on with this that's just another reason to use my phone but next

another reason to use my phone but next time I speak to you okay in person you

time I speak to you okay in person you can update me on how you're getting on

can update me on how you're getting on with that I am I am I am working on it

with that I am I am I am working on it I'm working on it

I'm working on it I think I've got to become more

I think I've got to become more cognizant of the cost of that addiction

cognizant of the cost of that addiction well exactly

well exactly to really I know one of the costs is

to really I know one of the costs is meaningful connections and presence with

meaningful connections and presence with them with and in the cost to

them with and in the cost to interpersonal relationships but

interpersonal relationships but maybe I haven't had the the cost

maybe I haven't had the the cost um impact me enough yet maybe

um impact me enough yet maybe the question left for you

but I don't know the signature so I'll have to figure that out later but is

have to figure that out later but is what's your selfish dream

um you know what I'm not sure how to sit with that question because I'm not

with that question because I'm not trying to get out of it but I just don't

trying to get out of it but I just don't look at my own reaction to it

look at my own reaction to it um

you know at this point I don't have too many what does it mean

I don't have too many what does it mean selfish by the way

selfish by the way let me ask you that what does that mean

let me ask you that what does that mean something that

something that is for me at the expense of others

is for me at the expense of others I don't think I have any dreams like

I don't think I have any dreams like that left I might have not might have I

that left I might have not might have I did have

did have at some point but if I have a dream

at some point but if I have a dream for myself in that sense of

for myself in that sense of self-enhancing dream something that

self-enhancing dream something that enhances my ego or something well if

enhances my ego or something well if this book sold a billion copies well

this book sold a billion copies well that that'd be a nice selfish dream you

that that'd be a nice selfish dream you know

know but

but I don't know how else to answer that

I don't know how else to answer that um I do have dreams but they're more

um I do have dreams but they're more about

about the state of the world that I like to

the state of the world that I like to see the the world I'd like to see future

see the the world I'd like to see future Generations in Arabic selfless Dreams

Generations in Arabic selfless Dreams yeah well I don't know what this

yeah well I don't know what this self-loves because it certainly involves

self-loves because it certainly involves my own history and certainly would make

my own history and certainly would make me feel better you know so in that sense

me feel better you know so in that sense it's selfish you might say but they're

it's selfish you might say but they're not they don't have to do with personal

not they don't have to do with personal I have enough you know I've done enough

I have enough you know I've done enough and I have enough so I don't have any

and I have enough so I don't have any anything any anything lacking that I

anything any anything lacking that I need to dream about

need to dream about all of our selfless streams are also

all of our selfless streams are also very much selfless selfish in that

very much selfless selfish in that regard as well they're going to help

regard as well they're going to help themselves in a different sense I mean

themselves in a different sense I mean any dreams I have or for a better world

any dreams I have or for a better world certainly or certainly have the function

certainly or certainly have the function of making me feel better

of making me feel better of of maybe even

of of maybe even the stuff that happened to me or the

the stuff that happened to me or the stuff that happened to you it would mean

stuff that happened to you it would mean a lot to me if they didn't happen to any

a lot to me if they didn't happen to any more children

more children you know so in the sense that it would

you know so in the sense that it would mean a lot to me you might say it's

mean a lot to me you might say it's selfish but it's not purely about me

selfish but it's not purely about me it's about something larger I'm not

it's about something larger I'm not trying to paint myself as some kind of a

trying to paint myself as some kind of a altruistic Saint I'm just saying that

altruistic Saint I'm just saying that would make me feel better if I really

would make me feel better if I really knew that kids in Gaza didn't have to

knew that kids in Gaza didn't have to face any more bombings if kids in Israel

face any more bombings if kids in Israel didn't have to face anymore uh danger of

didn't have to face anymore uh danger of terrorist attacks if um not that I see

terrorist attacks if um not that I see inequality there but I like that for

inequality there but I like that for both of them if kids in Ukraine they

both of them if kids in Ukraine they need to live under the the threat of

need to live under the the threat of missiles falling

missiles falling if people in Russia didn't have to feel

if people in Russia didn't have to feel to live with the fear of

to live with the fear of perhaps a nuclear conflict or the young

perhaps a nuclear conflict or the young men being conscripted into a war

men being conscripted into a war if uh if kids in Britain

if uh if kids in Britain you know didn't have to live in poverty

you know didn't have to live in poverty wouldn't that make you feel better you

wouldn't that make you feel better you know so to the extent that it makes us

know so to the extent that it makes us feel better you might say it's selfish

feel better you might say it's selfish but

but is it

gabble thank you my pleasure thank you so much thank you

my pleasure thank you so much thank you so much for for writing such an

so much for for writing such an important book I I think my only wish is

important book I I think my only wish is that I discovered this book sooner

that I discovered this book sooner because I think so many of my I think it

because I think so many of my I think it would have liberated that's a good word

would have liberated that's a good word liberated me from a series of things

liberated me from a series of things that would have helped me to live a much

that would have helped me to live a much better life and to understand myself

better life and to understand myself that's that's the point of awareness

that's that's the point of awareness that we talked about I know that your

that we talked about I know that your Advanced stage is over isn't it yeah

Advanced stage is over isn't it yeah I think we all want the answers even

I think we all want the answers even sooner because we we reflect on some of

sooner because we we reflect on some of the consequences or the mistakes or the

the consequences or the mistakes or the that we made not that those are I'm

that we made not that those are I'm imprisoned by any of those but it's you

imprisoned by any of those but it's you know and so it's so wonderful that this

know and so it's so wonderful that this book now exists you're you're a name

book now exists you're you're a name that I I started to be peppered with by

that I I started to be peppered with by my audience over and over again

my audience over and over again specifically in the last 12 months

specifically in the last 12 months people it's really really young people

people it's really really young people were messaging me and asking me to have

were messaging me and asking me to have a conversation with you about the topics

a conversation with you about the topics we've talked about today things like

we've talked about today things like ADHD and their trauma and so much and

ADHD and their trauma and so much and you know I sit here every day talking to

you know I sit here every day talking to um a lot a lot of people on this podcast

um a lot a lot of people on this podcast and

and um I think my understanding of trauma

um I think my understanding of trauma has forever been

has forever been redefined by both this conversation

redefined by both this conversation today but also by your book and I really

today but also by your book and I really I I'm so thankful to you because I think

I I'm so thankful to you because I think that'll help me speak on the topic with

that'll help me speak on the topic with more accuracy

more accuracy um and therefore um hopefully help other

um and therefore um hopefully help other people understand their their own trauma

people understand their their own trauma in a more um meaningful way it's just

in a more um meaningful way it's just such an important book well thank you so

such an important book well thank you so much thank you so much for giving me the

much thank you so much for giving me the platform to to talk about my work and

platform to to talk about my work and and just the opportunity to meet you

and just the opportunity to meet you thanks a lot and it's written in such an

thanks a lot and it's written in such an accessible way yeah which is so

accessible way yeah which is so important because that means it can

important because that means it can reach even more people thank you so much

reach even more people thank you so much okay thank you

okay thank you [Music]

[Music] thank you

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YouTube Transcript:Gabor Mate: The Childhood Lie That’s Ruining All Of Our Lives. | E193

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Gabor Mate: The Childhood Lie That’s Ruining All Of Our Lives. | E193