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What Charlie Kirk’s death says about political division in the US | The Take | Al Jazeera English | YouTubeToText
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The assassination of right-wing activist Charlie Kirk at a university event raises serious concerns about the escalation of political violence in the US, highlighting the divisive rhetoric and its potential consequences for democracy.
[Music]
Al Jazer podcasts.
>> Today in the US, the killing of a
controversial political influencer.
>> US right-wing activist and commentator
Charlie Kirk has died after being shot
in the neck at an event at Utah Valley University.
University.
>> Could the assassination of a right-wing
activist and a close ally of President
Trump push US political violence into a
new phase? I'm Malika Bilal and this is
the take. [Music]
[Music]
>> My name is Matthew Bod and I'm a
professor at the University of North
Georgia and I study religious rhetoric
and I've been writing about Charlie Kirk
and Turning Point USA for several years now.
now.
>> Well, Professor Matthew, welcome to the
take. It's good to have you here,
though, of course, the circumstances are
not good. We are speaking on Thursday
morning, a day after the shooting death
of right-wing political activist Charlie Kirk.
Kirk.
>> This morning, the hunt is underway for
Charlie Kirk's killer. The charismatic
conservative activist shot at Utah
Valley University. Kirk was discussing
mass shootings in America when a shot
rang out.
>> You had written a book on him. So, where
were you when you heard the news and
what were your first thoughts?
>> You know, my wife called me about him
getting shot when I was in my office. uh
meeting the students and then on the way
home I um got the notification of his
death. Uh so I was in the car and and I
got choked up. I I I cried.
>> Um if you feel comfortable elaborating
what was going through your mind, what
was behind that choking up moment?
>> I cried for his family, uh for his
widowed wife and and two children. I
have two small children around the same
age. and and being an advocate against
gun violence, I know the lifelong impact
that that can have. But I also knew that
I I was I was uh choked up crying for
our nation. Uh to have this type of assassination
assassination
um in our country just um is is is a
flashing red light to our democracy. To
shoot a private citizen who merely is uh
trying to influence our democracy um is
a line we crossed yesterday. and and I
don't know how we come back from that.
>> So, this is a story that will likely
have many updates as the days and the
weeks continue, but a lot of people in
our audience, especially
internationally, might be wondering who
Charlie Kirk was.
>> That's a lot of people
>> Charlie Kirk drew an enthusiastic crowd
as he typically did for a debate at Utah
Valley University.
>> Bring the best libs that Utah has to offer.
offer.
tell us what we need to know about him
in a few words.
>> So, I mean, he was a political
commentator. He appeared on Fox News and
the other conservative networks. He had
a three-hour radio program on one of the
largest radio networks in America. But
his his claim to fame, of course, is is
starting Turning Point USA. And most
people in America see that as a college
uh student, conservative student
organization, but it has grown in the
last few years well beyond that. They
have more high school chapters now than
they have college chapters. But he has
also put millions of dollars and the and
the turning point budget is upwards of
hundred million uh into seven different
cultural arenas uh avenues in which he
has made turning point into the
indispensable organization for
conservative causes and and this is an
international story. There is a turning
point UK, there's a turning point
Australia and Charlie Kirk was in South
Korea and Japan last week uh exporting
turning point ideals uh to those two countries.
countries.
>> Can you explain why he was considered so
controversial? Charlie Kirk was
controversial because he often promoted
far-right um views about immigration
which obviously has an international
link uh different racial groups talked
about gender he talked about a lot of
issues that would be on the far right. H
we are talking about someone who went
from suburban Chicago teenager to
someone who at this point had millions
of followers online and is getting an
Oval Office eulogy. So US President
Donald Trump described Charlie as a
patriot and a martyr for truth and
freedom. Charlie was a patriot who
devoted his life to the cause of open
debate and the country that he loved so
much, the United States of America.
>> The president also ordered flags at half
staff for him. So, you mentioned he's
influential and that is now being
exported abroad. How did he become so influential?
influential?
>> You know, I think that one of the things
that got him to where he was was his
charisma. I mean he these campus events
were his bread and butter and he would
engage with people of all um liberal
progressive politics and bring them up
to the microphone. But I think early on
in Turning Point um he uh saw this kind
of uh man against the world um mantra
that that he was going to college
campuses where he saw that where there
were in liberal indoctrination camps and
he was going to make conservative
students speak out more and he was very
successful at that and donors wanted to
donate to that. But really what made him
was uh or gave Turning Point the the
edge was he became very uh friendly and
a and a very tight relationship with
Donald Trump Jr. in 2016 as his father
ran for president. And so since then uh
President Trump has appeared at Turning
Point Events over the years. Um and then
he has his own platforms that he uh uses
every single day. He drives
conversations as you mentioned has a
large social media following. I think
what what Charlie Kirk was good at was
public engagement speaking to uh people
in ways they understood. He translated
political topics into millennial speak
if you want to say that. And I think
that uh he did that all um without a
college degree.
>> He was also often quoted as saying that
the idea behind Turning Point USA was to
save Western civilization. What does
that mean?
>> That's a tough question. Um because he
it's so broad. I mean Western
civilization to him includes democracy,
includes that we're a republic. It
includes free speech, but it it it does
have a racial element to it. Uh he
suggested there is a war on white people
happening in America.
>> The spiritual battle is coming to the
west and the enemies are wokeism or
Marxism combining with Islamism to go
after what we call the American way of life.
life.
>> I think western civilization to him is
about liberty and freedom. Um and it but
it is about a particular culture, a
particular Christian culture that he
wanted to see America embraced that he
thought America embraced in its origins
that he he suggested wrongly that
America started as a Christian nation.
Um and I think that western civilization
was a standin for that. He wanted to
return to that. So I guess if you want
to say that his call to western
civilization is kind of like MAGA and
making America great again. H well,
Professor Kirk, as you mentioned, was
known for traveling the country, hosting
debates, giving these Q&As's at college
campuses, and this latest one was at
Utah Valley University.
>> Do you know how many mass shooters there
have been in America over the last 10 years,
years,
>> counting or not counting gang violence? Great.
Great.
>> And he was shot while answering a
question about mass shootings. He was
known to be an outspoken supporter of
gun rights.
And video of this moment has been
circulating online with people making um
that remark or pointing that out. It's
reverberated around the world.
>> You've attended some of his events, so
you know what they're typically like.
What reactions to this event have you
seen that have stood out to you, good or bad?
bad?
>> Um I mean these events are very
intimate. It's him sitting in a chair
underneath the tent. There are there are
some barriers, but it it's people 10 ft
away yelling and screaming perhaps at
him or debating him in a way. There's
just a massive amount of people and it
is joyous at times. He starts by
throwing out red MAGA hats and and most
of the people I would say they are there
to see him because they want to be a
part of his movement. You know, it's
kind of hard to say that he was shot
because of what he said at that moment.
I it it seems and we don't know who did
this, but it seems it was a a a sniper
from 200 yards away. So, I don't know if
he was just, but yes, he has talked
about shootings. Uh, he has talked about
uh the different uh mental illnesses
that he thinks people commit or have
when they commit shootings. He's
advocate of the Second Amendment. I
heard him at one event at the University
of Georgia say that he owned many guns.
I never see him carry one. Uh certainly,
but I think that uh the reactions that
I've seen um online, sadly, some of them
are um very negative um about we should
not honor his life, we should not honor
his legacy. Um, and you know, I as a
person who's targeted by Turning Point
USA, for advocating against gun
violence, who wrote an op-ed against a
law in our state that allow concealed
weapons on college campuses, it it is
just the deepest of irony that Charlie
>> You hinted at your connection to this
story, your personal connection to the
story. So, let's dive in to that. The
book that you've written looks into
Kirk's conservative youth movement that
he co-founded, Turning Point USA,
>> but your connection begins before that.
>> I know that they put you on their
professor watch list in 2016, one of 100
names, and he blocked you on Twitter.
What happened? What's the story?
>> Um, you know, I I wrote an op-ed uh when
they were debating a bill here in our
state about allowing concealed weapons
on college campuses. that bill became a
law and they found that oped when they
were looking for a list of things that
they didn't like in 2016 to make this
kind of first viral moment for Turning
Point, this professor watch list. It was
certainly not the first list of
professors being targeted. Um, and then
to be honest with you, I didn't think
much of it when it happened, but I
quickly learned who they were. Um, and
so I started writing about them. And and
to be honest with you, I kept I kept
posting my writings underneath his his
uh tweets and I'm sure that's why they
they blocked me as one does.
>> Yes. Yes. Um so, you know, I I think
that I've written different things about
them over the years. Um and they're
they're well aware of me. They've been
adding um um things about me to my
professor watchless listing. Uh they
claimed on that that I made my career
out of Charlie Kirk, which is an
exaggeration, but I will say that I I've
written a lot about him. And so I I have
some idea I think of what Turning Point
is. And and the book lays out this plan
to take over the the seven cultural
institutions uh that Charlie Kirk has
has targeted these uh media, business,
government, education, and on down the
line. And uh to be honest with you, I I
I don't know where Turning Point goes
from here. Uh do they continue this
plan? Do they see that as Charlie Kirk's
legacy and they double down on it? Um
you know, you can't replace Charlie
Kirk. uh he was the face of turning
point, the energy u the founder
obviously uh so I don't know where they
go from here.
>> Professor, you are the epitome I would
venture to say of the idea that two
things can be true at the same time. So,
we started this conversation
with you saying that you were choked up
to hear of this, you know, just this
tragic killing,
>> but also Turning Point USA targeted you,
put you on a watch list, and has
continued to target you.
>> How do you hold those two things? I I do
admit it is difficult um to to know what
Turning Point is and to know that I'm
I'm one on that watch list uh to
continue to follow me as I follow them
on Twitter because of who Charlie Kirk
was and his shooting on a college
campus. Um I I think that my emotions
were directed to um that impact. um as
as a professor, as a person who talks to
students, um and many of them who knew
Charlie Kirk or wanted, you know, to
know him, uh I I see that um that I
think that's why I had the reaction that
I did.
>> More with Professor Matthew after the break.
>> Well, Professor Matthew, as we said,
details are still emerging and an
investigation is underway. We don't know
all that took place just yet. We knew
perhaps even less on Wednesday just
after the shooting when President Trump
gave his Oval Office remarks. And yet in
those remarks he blamed quote radical
left political violence.
>> Those on the radical left have compared
wonderful Americans like Charlie to
Nazis and the world's worst mass
murderers and criminals. This kind of
rhetoric is directly responsible for the
terrorism that we're seeing in our
country today and it must stop right now.
now.
>> Kirk has created this force of young
conservatives led by the president. But
what do you think it means for the
leadership of that movement? Um, I I do
think that the movement of mainly young
white males u who are conservative, some
in college, some not, I I I I do think
that they will double down on their
support of President Trump. His death
will only spur more not just political
involvement or political advocacy, but
will spur more anger uh more distrust of
the other side, more distrust of the
media. I think also that um you know
with President Trump's statement, he he
did mention the the radical left, but he
also mentioned vague organizations that
may have to be blamed for this. Um and
and so am I to be included in that group
because I write a critical book. Who
knows? We have seen some terrible things from
from
>> uh the White House in the last 6 months
since he took office. Um, and I think
that him using vague language like that
really sends a message that he wants to
do something in response to this. Uh, he
wants to act in a way that he's acted in
Los Angeles or Chicago or Washington DC.
I don't know what it would be, but I
think that uh the MAGA movement,
especially the young, uh, conservative
males that he has um, uh, attracted to
himself want that as well. Mhm.
>> Well, earlier you said you don't
necessarily fear yourself being
targeted. Um,
>> that could change, but not right now,
>> of course, for for any of us.
>> But this did happen on a college campus.
The school year just started. You work
at a college campus. What does it feel
like right now?
>> My particular campus had a gun incident
in April. Um, and that that event has uh
really changed our campus, our school. I
think the death of Charlie Kirk uh from
a gun on college campus will be the um
start of of more uh violence uh perhaps
uh not necessarily on college campuses,
but I I think that you know what what
Charlie Kirk tried to do was to get
conservative students to speak out more.
I find in my classes that students don't
want to speak and they don't want to um
get people riled up or they don't want
to seem negative. His death now seems to
push people even further back into not
having class discussions or not having
what college should be about.
>> Well, you are a professor of uh
religious rhetoric. So, I want to talk
about rhetoric. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> Over the course of the past 24 hours,
we've been seeing many people mourning
Charlie Kirk's death. former Fox News
hosts broke down on air talking about it.
it.
that he's dead
An MSNBC analyst was reportedly fired
for comments about this, calling Kirk a
quote divisive figure who promoted quote
hate speech. But let's look at some of
the things that Kirk said. He said,
quote, "Black women do not have brain
processing power to be taken seriously.
You have to go steal a white person's slot."
slot."
>> Joy Reed and Michelle Obama and Sheila
Jackson Lee and Katangi Brown Jackson
were affirmative action picks. We would
have been called the racist.
>> He said that Palestine quote doesn't
exist. He has said, "I can't stand
empathy. I think empathy is made up.
Professor Matthew, how do you square
Kirk the martyr with Kirk the provocore?
>> I think that the two things are related.
He's he's being framed as a martyr for
speaking out for quote free speech. I
don't necessarily think he was
interested in everybody having free
speech. I think he's being framed as
>> You were blocked on Twitter for your
speech. Right.
>> Exactly. Um I I think that his being
framed as a martyr is for conservative
causes. It's not necessarily for
anything else. Uh his provocative
statements, his statements uh that he
would call truth or that he would call
truth seeeking uh are what he is being
uh framed as a martyr for. Uh and that
that that should tell you all you need
to know about the political divisions in
our country. The I don't say
independents and middle people and
progressives are not framing him as as a
martyr. Um it's the people who who liked
what he had to say that are framing him
as a martyr and all the things that you
list. There are several more we could
talk about uh from calling the Supreme
Court justice uh DEI hire uh or talk
about black pilots. Um and I think that
um it was a provocative tour, but we
need to be very specific about what he
was uh being provocative about. Uh he
pushed a anti-immigration message. Um,
he pushed a a a pro-white message much
like Turk and Carlson. Uh, he pushed
conspiracy theories. U, he said a lot
that was wrong. Uh, both morally and and
factually. Uh, but at the same time, he
was a really personable person uh, and
really engaged with people. Uh, so yes,
as you said, two things can be true at
the same time.
>> Also, as we said, Kirk was very prun. I
don't want this conversation to pass,
professor, without talking about the
fact that this shooting came on the same
day as another school shooting, this
time at a high school campus in
Colorado. It also came just a few months
after a man targeted, shot, and killed a
Minnesota Democratic state
representative. And the list could go
on. What keeps you up at night more? Is
it the guns or is it the rise of
political violence? And
>> I hate to choose between the two,
honestly. Uh the rise of political
violence comes from the guns. It comes
from a rise of rhetoric that we seem to
not have a a a level of stopping.
Charlie Kirk raised the level of
rhetoric about spiritual warfare in this
country. Good versus evil. Uh he was
part of that. Um he also though was
asked at at an event in Idaho, when do
we get to use the guns? It came from a
faright person and he said directly yes.
No, that would be a trap. That's what
the Democrats want you to do. that would
be a bad idea. So, I I credit him for
that. But at the same time, he talked
about again owning guns and using guns
as a way to defend yourself from the
government. He at times towed the line.
Um I think that he knew the rise in
political violence was happening. He
talked about a cold civil war, but I
also think that that he didn't really
know how to um tone it down because he
was successful at it.
How do you see the US changing after not
just the fact that it's his death, but
it is the the killing of a prominent
politically active person with this mass
appeal caught on video, circulated
around the world on social media.
>> Uh yeah, I we already have conspiracies
theories spreading because we don't know
who the shooter was. I think this is um
crossing a line and that line being that
we now are solving our political
differences through violence. Um so I do
worry about the future of our democracy
about the future of our ability to
compromise uh the future of our ability
to have religious pluralism. Um he
talked about Charlie Kirk talked about a
Christian country and I think that many
people were against that. I being a
Christian advocated against that. Um, I
think that this is a moment where we
certainly can put it into a political
football and put it into martyrdom. Um,
but I think it will have um
reverberations beyond the politics. I
want to compare it to uh the shooting of
Ronald Reagan uh in the 80s because of
what happened with the Brady Bill.
Obviously, I think that the opposite of
that will happen. There will be more gun
freedom, more gun usage, more use of the
military. I think that President Trump
wants to do that. So if we think about a
parallel, you know, what happened after
um Reagan was shot just in the opposite way.
way.
>> Professor Matthew Bod, thank you so much
for walking us through this. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> thank you for this conversation.
>> And that's the take. Now, we want to
hear from you. What stories do you want
to see next on the show? Let us know in
the comments below what you'd like us to
cover. Your feedback helps shape future
episodes, so don't be shy. I'll see you tomorrow.
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