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Five Dangerous Narcissism Myths PhD Researchers Expose (Therapists Won't Tell You)

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Welcome to Narcissism Unmasked. I am

Lisa Sunny. I am a certified

relationship coach and we're talking

about narcissism with two amazing

amazing professionals that I'm going to

introduce momentarily. But you know

there's a lot of myths about what

narcissism is and you know the word is

overused and it's from trauma and it's

mother's fault and all kinds of

different myths and things that people

really believe including clinicians

including a lot of people. So, as this

topic has been so popular over the

years, I really wanted to bring experts

into this conversation. I joke often,

you know, I get a a question online

frequently as a relationship coach. Are

you a PhD? Right? What makes you

qualified to talk about this? And I can

say that I've read an unbelievable

number of books and I've done an

unbelievable amount of certifications

and and education on this, but I'm not a

PhD. So I thought why don't I bring on

some PhDs to actually talk about this

and the people who are conducting the

research and analyzing the research. So

I would love to just kind of kick this

over to my guests to please introduce

themselves. And first up is Dr. Peter Solo.

Solo.

>> Thank you for having me Lisa. So my name

is Peter Serno. I earned my doctorate in

psychology and I ran um for almost two

decades I ran a a private psychotherapy

practice. All of my continuing education

and training I dedicated to uh the

treatment and assessment of personality

disorders as well as uh abuse and

trauma. So those are my two specialties.

Those were topics that I was always

enthusiastic about and they sort of

intersect and that often times when we

talk about personality pathology, we're

also seeing a lot of the uh harm that is

caused uh by those disorders when

they're untreated. And so narcissism is

something that I've studied extensively.

I've uh published a couple of books on

the topic of personality disorders and

pathological relationships. So

>> that's sounds qualified to me and I'll

link all the books um in the notes as

well because both of you have written

some incredible incredible books. The

nature and nurture of narcissism by Dr.

Peter Solo. When I read that book, I

tell you I didn't put it down. I was

enthralled with the entire book. And I I

wouldn't say it's an easy read or a

difficult read. It's just so much

amazing information and it was a lot of

like moments. So, um I'll encourage

people to definitely read that. Next

guest is Dr. George Simon, author of

many books, but Character Disturbances

was the one that um that I most recently

read. Phenomenal. I read it um two years

ago and then recently reread it. But

please introduce yourself. I'm George

Simon and uh I have studied what we used

to call character and character

disturbances. Character being that moral

side of personality, that part that

reflects our level of integrity and our

commitment to pro-social values. I've

studied that for over 48 years now going

on 50 years. um and did some early

clinical case study research on

narcissistic personalities and uh what

the kind of personality that I call in

my books the covertly aggressive

personalities. Now now people are

calling them covert narcissists but uh

frankly these covert characters go

beyond just being narcissistic. These

are the uh hellbent on dominating types

that can look good without being very

good. They know how to charm and

convince and they seem benign, but they

like to control everything. And I first

got clued into what we commonly call now

the gaslighting effect when I started

working with these folks and especially

their relationship partners. And um I

described this effect. We weren't

commonly using the term gaslighting back

in 1996, but it I described that

feeling, that feeling crazy feeling when

you're dealing with one of these covert

characters. I described that in the uh

opening lines of In Chief's Clothing, my

first book, and I want to tell you,

instantly, all hell broke loose. I mean,

I I've never seen so much email, so much

response. uh you know we're we're now

published in 26 different foreign

languages and countries uh it it struck

a nerve um because folks knew very well

what they were experiencing with these

covert characters. Um and I I read

somewhere that um in 2023 I think that

gaslighting was the number one Googled

word ever. Yeah.

>> Unsurprising. I remember that. I made a

video on that actually. But um I didn't

know the word gaslighting and actually I

have come to realize it is something I

have experienced my whole life. So I am

like particularly sensitive to

gaslighting but um I remember Dr. Romney

once saying you know it's people think

that gaslighting is like lying but it is

so much deeper than that because a

person is really trying to make you feel

crazy. They know that what you're saying

is true but they're attempting to just

distort your reality and make you feel

like a lunatic and it works. So over the

years, you know, um I've been doing this

for 5 years, so a little bit less than

than you gentlemen. Um but I've heard so

many things and I've believed so many

things. You know, I will I'll be the

first to admit if you look at some of my

earlier content, which I don't again my

my purpose online in talking about

narcissism and narcissistic abuse is not

really to talk about where it comes

from, but really healing from it and and

exiting these relationships and

specifically in breaking trauma bonds.

But obviously throughout this work,

there's so many things that you hear and

so many things that I now know and

people tell me I'm wrong every day. So I

thought, well, let's have a little fact

check mythbusting discussion here. So

we're going to cover five myths. And I'm

I'm saving the worst myth, the biggest

myth, the most impactful myth, possibly

the most dangerous myth for last because

I want to get into a much deeper

conversation about that one. But let's

start with the very first, which is that

everyone is narcissistic to a degree.

So, Dr. Sarno, what do you think of that?

that?

>> Uh, well, um, I guess I want to I'll

just answer the question, but I want to

preface it real quick because we would

have to define narcissism. Uh, so, but

what I'm going to do, I'm not going to

spend too much time on that. I I would

just say we would have to understand

what each individual person means when

they say everyone is narcissistic to a

degree because that can mean a number of

things. However, I'll just say um you

know going back to Freud, Freud

differentiated between primary and

secondary narcissism. So if we're

talking about primary narcissism, it's

this sort of benign normal developmental

stage. young children, infants,

whatever, uh, young kids, they don't

have the the brainwiring to not be

completely self-centered. They're not as

altruistic because they haven't

developed that that capacity or

experience yet. So, from the perspective

of some survival needs and basic needs,

we we all have some uh self- reggard.

And if that's what's referred to as

we're all narcissistic to to a degree, I

would I would agree with that. Um, what

I don't agree with is that we don't all

possess uh secondary narcissism, which

is this more pathological

self-focus, self-absorption that can be

uh malignant that's enduring and

pervasive across life. It's not

something we outgrow. And that is the

kind of narcissism that involves the

entitlement, the exploitation that

really makes it in some cases nearly

impossible to have a collaborative

reciprocal relationship. So um I don't

believe we are all that but I think the

primary one sure we can be we can all

have a little bit of of uh basic self- need.

need.

>> That makes sense. One thing that I hear

a lot too is you know the overuse of the

word every every woman calls her ex a

narcissist which I will my content does

tend to focus on male narcissists but

I'm fully aware that that's not um that

all that women are can't be

narcissistic. That's not it not it at

all. But I hear so often that the word

is overused and every woman calls her ex

a narcissist. I've heard some experts

say narcissism is a personality trait

and narcissistic personality disorder is

a personality disorder. So I I sometimes

wonder how that even connects to

everyone's a little narcissistic. It's

such a a broad statement. What's your

take on that, Dr. Simon? Well, this is a

big topic and we really don't have the

time to get to it in detail, but I will

say that it wasn't long ago, it was

actually about uh 15 years ago that the

committee that works on personality

disorders uh for the official manual

that psychiatrists and psychologists and

other mental health professionals use to

diagnose and treat mental disorders. was

actually considering throwing out um the

the uh classification of narcissistic

personality disorder. That's right. They

were actually considering that because

uh it's been so hard to define in many

respects uh and because some folks on

the committee thought that there are

features of various personality types

that resemble narcissism. Um and um also

because our in our day and time and this

is very important in our cultural

climate or zeitgeist of our time things

that used to be true with regard to uh

people's adaptive functioning aren't

true anymore. And we used to actually

have three criteria for any kind of

personality disorder. And the criteria

was this. A person's way of operating in

the world, a way of seeing the world and

interacting with others either had to be

so excessive, so over-the-top in its

manifestation, or so intractable and

inflexible, in other words, they

couldn't operate any other way, or so

deviant from the norm that the person

couldn't function and and it caused

distress to the person and it caused

distress to other people, too. It

impaired their ability to function

adaptively. seriously. And that's what

constituted a personality disorder as

opposed to just having a certain

personality type. Um, that definition

doesn't even hold up anymore in today's

climate. things that used to be way out

of the ordinary, egregious

manifestations of narcissism, so

overthe-top, so unyielding, and what we

used to say so deviant from the norm are

normalized. They're increasingly common.

So the the committee realized a long

time ago, we need a whole new

definition. And one of the things that

we're considering uh these days is a

single category for a personality

disorder comprised of varying traits uh

of different types and degrees of

severity, the degrees of presence in

these traits. Um and um that helps us

out when we're trying to define

narcissistic personality disorder

because there are two traits that we

look at really closely. One has to do

with this inflated sense of self. The

other has to do with empathy capacity or

empathy deficiency. And there's a third

one looking around in there which has to

do with uh how you see things. Uh one of

the earliest researchers in this field

had a little phrase to describe the

thinking pattern of narcissistic folks.

He said for them thinking makes it so.

In other words, if I think it's real, if

I think this is the way things are,

that's the way things are. And sometimes

it gets so ridiculous that it borders on

delusionality. And you wonder, is this

person even sane? Because what they

think is real, it just doesn't jive with

my sense of any reality. And we see this

in the most egregious uh displays of

narcissism. So, we we'll get there.

We'll get there to a better definition,

but we're a ways from it. And it's

always in context to the times. In

Freud's day, you mentioned uh Freud, Dr.

Serno, in his day, what he was seeing in

the way of manifestation of clinical

disturbances was very different because

the times were different. It was a

horribly socially repressive time. uh

and uh there were more folks that we

commonly call neurotic and

pathologically so uh during those times

than there are today.

>> I I totally agree. Well, I know I mean

we could go into detail on I think every

one of these myths could be its own

standalone. Um but thank you to you both

for your perspective on that. And this

is another one. Here's another myth that

is so prevalent and I know Peter, you

get this a lot on your page, too.

Narcissists are just insecure and they

have low self-esteem. That's why they

behave the way they behave. Dr. Serno,

what do you think?

>> Well, I mean, I'm not going to give my

opinion. I'm just going to tell you what

the research shows.

>> Good point. What do you know?

>> So, when we talk about I mean, again,

and Dr. Simon brought it up. We have to

maybe even come up with a new definition

or be clear on what we're referring to

as narcissism. But I think the

narcissism that is uh often this

umbrella term that people are using and

they're attributing low self-esteem or

insecurity to that. What I will say is

there's research uh that is um there's

counter evidence to this idea that all

narcissists are suffering from

insecurity and low self-esteem. There's

research that shows some of them um are

very pleased with themselves and that

they're happy as clams as long as you

give them what they want. Which going

back to Dr. Simon's, you know, thinking

makes it so. If you let if you think the

way I I think and you think about the

way I think, the way I want you to think

about it, we're good. But if you

confront anything, um, some of these,

we'll say, explosive reactions to

criticism are often framed as, well,

they're just very insecure and fragile

and weak. Yes and no. Some are and some

aren't. So we know now that some

narcissistic people they truly believe

in their superiority. It's not it's not

a defense against some inferiority. And

then there are others who have

self-esteem issues and insecurities.

However, the way we define narcissism

clinically, self-esteem and insecurity

aren't uh criterion variables or

features of how we define it. So that's

important too. self-esteem and

insecurity and I think later we're going

to talk about shame. Those are universal

human experiences not exclusive to

narcissism. There are people who define

narcissism as a uh shamebased insecurity

self-esteem disorder that fuels the

grandiosity and the entitlement and the

lack of empathy. As if um if they

weren't insecure, they didn't suffer

from low self-esteem. They wouldn't be

grandiose. They wouldn't be

attention-seeking. they wouldn't be

lacking in empathy. Research shows

that's that's categorically untrue. So,

I think I'll end that with, do

narcissists, do many of them experience

self-esteem issues and insecurity? Yes.

Is it caused by their narcissism? No.

That's a nice succinct way to put it. I

feel like it's, you know, a lot of

people will say, "Oh, no, but mine was

really insecure. They're just

projecting. They're pretending that they

think that highly of themselves." I got

to tell you, I felt like he really

thought it when I was in an abusive

relationship. Um, so I'm I'm happy to

hear that and I think that was one of

the things in your book that I was like,

"Yes." You know, it made me practically

jump out of my chair. Um, Dr. Simon,

what can you add to this?

>> Well, that was an excellent explanation

and I particularly want to emphasize

what was said there about this tendency

to paint with a broad brush and to

overgeneralize. You know, Freud in his

day was dealing with a limited set of

circumstances and problems. He had a

particular kind of clientele suffering

from a particular kind of malady and he

based some theories on what he saw. But

then he committed the cardinal crime of

all sidence. And this is a crime in

science that occurs throughout all the

sciences. You find something, you think

you found kind of a general rule that

applies everywhere and so you start to

overgeneralize and there comes the

problem. And yes, there are some people

who inwardly are insecure and who have

thin skin because of their lack of

healthily developed selfesteem. There

are some people, I've met some in my

book, Character Disturbance, I called

them the more neurotic kind of

narcissist. They're very different from

another type. Very different. A much

more prevalent type. And by the way, the

research also says, Dr. Seleno, that

these more prevalent types that we know

are not insecure underneath tend to be

men more often than women. So, there's

evidence about that, too. Um, women tend

to be the more insecure type,

compensating in one way or another for

any insecurities that they might have.

Uh, making a protest of sorts. Um but

the problem is when we overgeneralize

uh and another thing uh that occurred

because of Freud's theories being so

prevalent for a long time and being so overgeneralized

overgeneralized

is that people in abusive relationships

were buying into the notion that if they

could just get to the underlying wounds,

if they could just ease the trauma that

was there somehow how um with enough

love and know enough understanding heal

what they were taught to believe was the

underlying hurt that things would get

better. And guess what? They only got

worse. It's because we overgeneralized

that view of human nature and what goes

wrong and why it goes wrong. And when I

wrote both uh in sheep's clothing and

character disturbance, I think one of

the reasons why um they enjoyed uh the

reception that they did, especially in

sheep's clothing, is because people felt

validated for what they already knew.

They already knew that it wasn't helping

to try and find the trauma underneath

everything. It wasn't It was only making

matters worse. Yeah, it can open up a

can of worms in some ways. But yeah,

>> absolutely. Now, Dr. Solano, you were

talking about the shame, right? And this

is something that I hear so often and I

meanh might be the most prevalent. In

fact, it's a shamebased disorder. I've

heard very big people talking about it

being a shame based disorder and they

feel such shame. Again, I never saw that

and I, you know, they're all different.

I I say this sometimes. Narcissists are

still human beings and I know that they

can present a bit differently, but what

does the research show on whether or not

they experience what we see as shame?

>> I'm going to have to play both sides

here because there is a lot of research

um anecdotal data, case studies based on

subjective personal interpretation of

clinicians that spans decades that

insist going back to Dr. Simon's uh you

know this overgeneralized theory. We

found it. We got it. Now let's apply it

to everybody that comes into our office.

There's decades and countless uh

peer-reviewed research stating

narcissism is shame based. I mean it's

out there. So I'm not going to deny that

the literature is not out there. There's

clinical literature. It's peer-

reviewviewed. It's published. Peer

review doesn't mean valid research or

verification of the uh the research, by

the way. It just means they're operating

within the standards of that theory. Um,

so I think a lot of people don't know

that, but there's this idea that the

shame in narcissists is unconscious.

Well, so here's where we run into this

problem because narcissists can't tell

you if they feel shame cuz it's

unconscious. Even if they deny that they

are ashamed, they're in denial. Well,

what a terrific theory that is because

it's untestable and you can't disprove

it. And that's the problem with this theory.

theory. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So theories have to remain testable. So

when we we hear people say this is a

shame based disorder and even if the

narcissist claims they're not ashamed,

they still really are cuz we know better

than them. That's been going on in

clinical practice for ever and that's a

problem. That's not science. That's

that's people doing magic as far as I'm

concerned. Um,

>> what we know now about narcissism is

whether we're talking about trait

narcissism or NPD, um, we're talking

about research that shows that there is,

uh, a heritable component to the traits

that we consider the problematic traits

related to narcissism. So, grandiosity,

lack of empathy, um, excessive attention

seeking, a need for admiration, not

necessarily feeling much guilt or

remorse after harming other people. And

so all psychological traits have a

heritable uh component to them. That

doesn't mean that it's genetically

determined. So I want to clarify that.

But when we're talking about shame,

shame is not equivalent to the pathology

that we call narcissism. Um and I'll

I'll just say we have many different

clinical presentations when it comes to

this. Uh to so to say that narcissism um

objectively or universally is rooted in

shame, it doesn't hold up under evidence.

evidence.

>> That's pretty simple. Now, Dr. Simon,

you were laughing at certain parts. Tell

me what was what was happening for you.

>> Well, let me preface it this way. It's a

shame. What's happened to the concept of

shame? It's a crying shame. Love it. Uh

are there are there levels of shame that

are toxic and detrimental to a person's

development? Absolutely. Is shame an

inherently bad thing? I hear uh you

know, Dr. Selena was mentioning the

volume of literature out there. Much of

it insisted that guilt, feeling badly

about what you did is okay. But shame,

feeling badly about who you are as a

person, is never okay. That is just

plain bunk. Because the worst

narcissists, the most pathological of

narcissists can be defined pretty much

as shameless

things that would cause any other

relatively welladjusted person to say,

"Oh my goodness, what kind of person am

I to have said or have done this to

another human being?" That doesn't exist

for some narcissists. And I can tell you

with certainty because I've worked with

the most pathological character-wise

populations that you can work with. And

when I was doing work with prisons,

setting up programs and working with

people, you come across those people who

manage somehow despite the worst

circumstances of their upbringing,

despite a lifetime of bad associations

and bad choices, managed to turn things

around. And I can tell you that without

exception, every single person that

managed to turn around their lives,

their attitudes, their way of being did

so not out of a sense of guilt. It was

when they took that look in the mirror

and decided they no longer wanted to be

the kind of person that they had been

that things started to change. Say they

were saved by shame, not by guilt.

Sometimes they felt guilty every time

they did the unthinkable. And guess

what? They still did it again. They

>> still did it. Guilt doesn't stop them.

That's very true. I have to say in my

experience, I have experienced um

narcissistic abuse as shameless. I did

not personally see any shame. Um but

more specifically, even through working

with so many clients and you hear these

stories and this just like relentless

abuse, where's the shame? Shame often

makes you it shakes you to your core and

you feel so awful about it that it

changes the behavior. Probably an

oversimplification but

>> and by the way being embarrassed at

being uncovered or being shown to be the

fool is not shame.

>> That is important to note I think

because they do care so much about what

people think or at least some they care

so much. Yes,

>> that's not shame.

>> That's exactly right. Being uncovered

the jig is up now. Now I look like a

fool. That is not shame. That's

embarrassment. And it's something

intolerable to narcissists. And that's

what gives uh folks who are one other

soapbox. Give me just a second with this.

this.

>> Do it.

>> By and large, mental health

professionals of all stripes are the

most egregious misusers of scientific

terms. Top of the list, and then I'll

stop. Top of the list, codependency.

>> I have a visceral reaction at that. Yes.

another program. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah,

>> I know, right? Part two coming up. I

Yeah, I agree so much. There's actually

that's a whole Trust me, I agree with

you. That's a whole episode on its own. Um,

Um,

>> let's go to the next myth. So, I'm going

to say the myth and then I'm going to

tell you a quick reason why this is on

my list. So, narcissists are mentally

ill. I have made content talking about

narcissistic abuse and there's a

community of people who you know maybe

you two could offer your opinion on that

but who really feel um that it's

offensive to call it narcissistic abuse

because you wouldn't call it bipolar

abuse and you wouldn't call it autism

abuse. So it's it's ableist. Now this is

where things go a little bit too far for

me personally in being in having it

called as abbleist to speak out against

narcissistic abuse. what I'm still going

to call narcissistic abuse because if

it's abbleist then that means that

there's a disability in my opinion and

I'm I stand to be corrected. That's why

I've got you here. But I don't think

that's part of I I don't see it as a

disability. I it's a personality

disorder and I maybe there's some gray

area in the in the phrase mentally ill.

But why don't we start with Dr. Solardo

again? What's what's the research show

on mentally ill as a label for NPD? So

there there's a difference between a

psychiatric illness, a symptomatic

condition, and a characteristic disorder

or a characteristic way of being. These

aren't interchangeable. I think at least

in the in the clinical world, people get

confused cuz everything is referred to

as a disorder in a diagnostic manual,

but there's nuances to what these things

mean. I mean, when we talk about a

mental illness, we're talking about

oftent times this involves like a

disruption in reality testing or like

for example with schizophrenia or or

like a mood disorder like that. I mean I

would consider that a psychiatric

illness one because these things are

also operating outside the control of

the individual you know I mean they

can't um they don't decide when they're

going to have positive symptoms of like

like a hallucination or or or you know

so we can't really define that as the

same thing when we talk about character

I have a hard time grouping that in the

same category as an illness because

we're talking about maladaptive patterns

of relating while the person is still

able to reality test. Now, they might

distort reality intentionally, or they

might prefer a or overvalue a reality

that's not consistent with with other

people's reality, but they're not out of

touch in the same way that somebody is

um who's mentally ill, right? So, I I I

think it's important to distinguish. We

had actually exiled personality

disorders uh for a while into another

axis in the past because they weren't

anything like psychotic conditions. I

mean, I guess some people if they get

really stressed enough, they can almost

act like they've lost touch with reality

temporarily. Um, but for the most part,

these are enduring patterns of behavior,

oftent times shameless behavior. And

it's not that they don't know what's

going on. They they do. It's just that

they don't. These are um often times

referred to as egoentonic conditions,

meaning they don't believe that the

problem is originating within

themselves. Not that they don't think

that they're causing problems. They just

don't believe they're the ones who have

who need to be uh the burden is on to

change. That's but that's based in

reality. I mean, that's they're not um

they're not losing sight. They just

don't want to be different because this

is working for them. And that's not

something that someone with bipolar

disorder who's in the throws of a manic

episode or somebody who's schizophrenic

um that's not something that they are

intentionally contending with. Right. So

anyway, that's my piece.

>> Yep. I I mean I hear it all the time

like narcissists believe their own lies

or they're delusional or and it's like

no, they're sane in clinical terms. I

mean I Dulu is a word that's flying

around right now so I get it. You could

say they're dulu, but that's not a

clinical term, obviously.

>> Let me I will I will add to that. I

there's a difference between an

overvalued idea, a fantasy, and a a

delusion in the sense of we're talking

about there's a legal and criminal sense

of insanity and delusion. There's also

people who carry delusions who are not

narcissistic. Um, so we got I just want

to be careful that I don't want people

going around thinking that if somebody's

narcissistic that they are completely on

a different wavelength and out of touch

with reality. They are conscious of what

what they are doing.

>> They are conscious of what they are

doing. Yes, that's huge because it's,

you know, they don't know any better and

they don't like they're mentally ill.

They can't help it. So, I'm happy to

have that conversation and sort of

dispel that. Dr. Simon, what can you add

to that? Are narcissists mentally ill?

>> Yeah, I I might just amplify because Dr.

Serno, you you were very eloquent there.

Yeah, that's another horrible carryover

from the traditional paradigms uh that

were started by Sigman Freud. We were

taught that most behavior was

unconscious. The person didn't really

know what we were doing. And so the

number one mistake of relationship

partners and by the way the number one

mistake of most therapists is to waste

time and energy pointing out things the

person already knows.

>> Agreed. I so agree. Having been in

couples counseling multiple times like

>> in my workshops that Dr. Serno has

actually attended in my workshops I use

a little couple of little rhyming

phrases. Um, it's not that they don't

see, they see, but disagree with the

standards and the principles we'd like

them to adopt. And it's not that they're

not aware. The problem is more that they

don't care to make some modifications in

their way of doing things based on

pro-social values. So, that's just part

of it. But the main thing I want to add

is this and I point this out in my books

in sheep's clothing and character

disturbance especially for the disturbed

character of any stripe regardless of

how narcissistic they might be. You know

what they say in real estate three

things matter right? Location uh

location and uh location right? Well for

the disturbed character only three

things matter. Position position and

position. the way they prefer life to

go, the way they'd like things to be. If

they're here and everybody else is here,

especially you in a relationship,

they're as happy as a clam. They'll

accept this if they absolutely have it.

>> They will never stand for you or society

or anything to be here and for them to

be subordinate.

>> It's at the root. And the biggest reason

why it's hard to make it's always hard

to make progress in any kind of

intervention dealing with such folks.

But the biggest reason for the failure

is not dealing with that core issue. Is

not dealing with that absolute

intentional defiance of answering to

something bigger.

>> In the mind of the narcissist, there is

nothing bigger. There's nothing bigger

to answer to.

>> That's not grandiosity. What is

>> Yeah, that's grandiosity in a nutshell. Yes.

Yes.

>> Yeah, it's so true. Um, so the next myth

is the one that I absolutely believed

and I I think is the one that I get the

most push back about and frankly called

every name in the book from stupid to

unqualified to a coach with the air

quotes which is that narcissism is

caused from childhood trauma andor from

bad parenting. So, I know that there's a

lot of research, maybe I should air

quote that, but there's a lot of um out

there that talks about overindulgence,

that talks about trauma and pain caused,

and that all narcissists are traumatized

and they can't help the way that they

act. What does the research say? Dr.

Serno, I'm going to start with you again.

again.

>> Well, psychoanalysis predates um modern

genetics and neuroscience. So that

research will tell you that it's the

major ingredient is the parenting. So it

exists. The literature's out there. Um

however, you know, correlation is

mistaken for causation. And a lot of

this is speculation. It's again, it's we

already know everything we need to know.

So we're going into this case knowing

that it's parenting and now we're just

going to hear the anecdote and confirm

what we already know. So with that

literature, there's a lot of

confirmation bias. There's something

called the belief perseverance effect

where you're looking for anything to

confirm what you want to believe rather

than what the evidence shows. Um so a

lot of case studies are written in that

in that form. Um I already know what it

is and so yeah there is research out

there that says that and it's um my

goodness I mean I don't even know how

many countless studies have been uh

published on that. However, uh again,

there's a difference between correlation

and and causation. Can we really say

that if you a specific parenting type

can take each child and turn them into a

narcissist based on a particular type or

style of parenting or an absence of a

particular style? Can we really say uh

because when we go down that route, I

think what we're doing is we're doing

we're making some pretty significant

mistakes. when we're assuming everybody

is exactly the same on the inside and is

a blank slate and depending on what

environment they're in, you can mold

them or shape them into anything you

want them to become, right? Um I I don't

believe that the evidence uh agrees with

this. I think that the evidence we have

today strongly uh disputes this. There's

a lot of other factors that are involved

in causation and even influence. So, uh,

parenting and trauma, can they influence

the expression of certain traits? Of

course they can. Nobody's disputing

that. Um,

>> is that sufficient to cause or prevent

narcissism in every child? No. No way.

No way. And now I think a lot of people

don't even know this, but we're seeing

even in diagnostic manuals, um, for

example, in the DSM, the latest edition,

we're seeing that when it comes to

borderline personality disorder, we're

seeing research that shows that it's

five times more prevalent in

first-degree biological relatives. I

don't think most therapists know that

section of the DSM exists. It also says

that trauma is neither necessary nor

sufficient to cause personality

disorders. So, this isn't to alleviate

any sort of parental responsibility.

It's not to say that parenting doesn't

um matter. It's not to say that parents

can't put their children through hell.

And it's not even to say that some

narcissists aren't brutally abused and

neglected. What it's saying is that's

not sufficient to explain pathological

narcissism in every single human being

because a lot of narcissists were not

mistreated in childhood. And they

self-report that in a lot of clinical

settings. You'd have to be a clinician

to know that. But some of them don't

even know that there's that they can use

the excuse of bad parenting. So trauma

in and of itself, childhood trauma,

cannot be considered a cause of every

case of narcissism.

>> Mhm. I mean, it makes sense. Makes so

much more sense actually hearing this

than anything I had learned years ago.

And Dr. Simon, you were nodding.

Obviously, you know, there's a lot of

agreement there. The the other piece

that I have heard, right, is you're

talking about trauma, but also that no,

no, it's more tied to overindulgence,

but I think that also just speaks to

like, no, it's not the parenting that's

the sole factor. But why do some people

find that just like the worst thing you

could ever say and start questioning

your PhD? Why? So, why I I'll throw that

to Dr. Simon. Why do you think people

want to believe that so much?

>> Oh gosh. Well, um I think the reason

I'll go back to what I was originally

going to say I did to answer your

question first. I think the reason that

people want to believe that so much is

because it's a little bit less disquing.

It's more comforting to think that if we

could just get to the underlying wounds

and trauma and mend them in some way, we

could make things better. So it's a

comfortable position to take if in fact

we say you know the person is

predisposed this way for various reasons

we can't even control and yes maybe they

were even encouraged by the parenting

style being indulgent or uh overly

permissive or whatnot. We can't do

anything about that. So where are we?

How do we make any headway? What do we

do? And that's what I spent a career

figuring out. And boy, when that light

bulb moment happened, everything changed

for me because I do not like to take

people's money and not deliver some kind

of a meaningful product.

>> I just don't like it. It doesn't sit

well with me. It feels like fraud. It is

fraud. It is broad. That's why that's

why it feels like it. Yeah. So, uh

everything changed for me and it is

amazing. I like to uh analogize the persisting

persisting

uh notions that come out of our old

traditional psychology. Uh I like to

liken them to the the creature in the

grade B horror movie. The creature that

just will not die. Whether it's the blob

or whatever it is, you know, they try

everything. They try bombing it,

poisoning it, starving it, whatever.

>> It just keeps coming back. When I was

being trained in a very good school,

they were still teaching. They were

still teaching that autism had its roots

in cold mothers who nursed their

children with such coldness and such

detachment that it fostered the

detachment in their infants. That was

taught. And it's an outgrowth of the

monster that won't die. A well-meaning

theory, but an overgeneralization that

never had any foundation in effect.

Here's another one. Schizophrenia was

the result of mixed messagegiving

mothers who basically unconsciously and

unwittingly but definitely conveyed to

their children, I want you, but then

again, I don't want you. I love you, but

then again, I hate you. And this set up

a pattern for them to basically not be

able to tell reality. Okay, these were

theories being taught and promoted even

as the science was evolving to treat the

biochemistry of the disease,

>> the brain disorder.

>> I can't help but notice that it's

mother's fault that people are

narcissistic and it's mother's fault

that they're autistic and it's mother's

fault. So, it's just it's mom's. Got it.

In old in old uh learning. Um I want to

ask a question. Frankly, I know the

answer to it, but I want to hear this

from from you both. When we talk about

it being genetic, speaking of mothers,

right? He had a narcissistic mother,

that's exactly why he's a narcissist.

So, it's not even if they could get on

board, I think, with it being genetic

rather than um environment. It's it's

like his mother passed it down to him,

which is interesting just on its own.

But um can you just talk about the

difference for for the audience of

hereditary versus genetic?

>> So um genetics stands for more than just

family inheritance patterns. And we also

need to be clear there's no such thing

as a narcissistic gene, a borderline

gene, a histrionic gene. We're talking

about polygenic conditions. So when we

refer to genetics like in the field of

behavioral genetics, we're talking about

differences in the DNA sequence and a

lot of that is a lottery. It's not just

um my, you know, abusive cheating ex had

all of the right ingredients to pass

that on to the kids and I didn't, you

know, it's it's not really that's not

really how it works. Um so we're talking

about going back to the example of

autism. Autism isn't created by

refrigerator mothers. you know, two

parents without autism can give birth to

a child with autism. Part of this is the

the variations in the DNA sequence that

happen randomly. Okay? So, we're

learning more a lot more about that. And

what we're talking about when we talk

about traits, we're talking about a lot

of small DNA differences with small

effect that together create a large

impact. And so, some people, Dr. Simon

referenced the the continuum of the

severity of traits. It's now the

dimensional model of personality. Some

people have enough of those differences

that they're really on the excessive

side of grandiosity or hostility or

manipuliveness or all these other traits

that we are now calling pathological

traits in some uh diagnostic literature.

So, it's not the case that if you have a

parent who meets all the criteria for a

a grandiose, entitled, hostile,

aggressive, shameless narcissist that

you have to necessarily worry or that

you can even predict or determine that

your your child's going to have the same

disorder. It's not really that simple.

And even even if it were, that's not

something to be too alarmed about

because it's not deterministic and

there's always room to intervene in the

right ways. As Dr. Simon was saying,

it's not that all of these people are

completely untreatable. It's that they

were being treated with interventions

that didn't do them any good. And so,

you need to learn, you know, how to

teach and treat character and treat

behavior, not give insight to people who

already know what the hell they're doing

and they just like doing it. But I I

would encourage people not to be so

worried about genetic, meaning doomed or

death sentence. Are there really really

rare occasions? Sure. I mean, I was

recently featured in a docue series on

Ted Bundy. Now, he actually said,

"Everyone needs and in one moment of

rare clarity where I don't know if you

remembered if he was being recorded or

not, he actually said you need to stop

looking for cause and effect cuz you

ain't going to find it." He was

basically saying this is the way he

wanted to be and he did what he wanted

to do and you're not going to blame my

mom or my dad or my grandparents or my

brother or society. Now he was a

pathological liar. So later he would

say, "Oh, it was pornography." But this

cause and effect relationship and also

um this idea that your genetics are

going to cause you to do something or

your environment is going to cause you

to do something. It's it's really not

that simple. It's much more nuanced. And

um I I I would encourage people not to

be so hung up on this idea that if if

they hear genetic that means, you know,

their family's cursed or their their

kids are doomed cuz it's really just not

the case. That's what I think a lot of

people hear is it's because I I deal

with women who have narcissistic

husbands or or exhusbands and whatnot

and I if you have children it's like

what do you mean it's genetics? I mean

my son is going to have it, my

daughter's going to have it. Oh my god.

And they panic. But I think if there's

one big takeaway from today it's that

nothing is really just that black and

white. And I know something I say a lot.

We want black and white answers. We are

we we want that so much. And

unfortunately, there's a lot of gray,

but I appreciate both of you bringing as

much, you know, information to people as

possible to kind of counteract some

information that's already out there.

Cuz if I quote a study, somebody's going

to tell me, well, no, that study was

written in 2023 and it's another study

written in 2024 that disproves what you

said. And I'm like, but does that person

know what they're talking about? You

know, it's and I don't want to debate

all the experts, but that's why I

brought two experts in to have this

conversation. People who have conducted

the research and are obviously very

informed on reading and analyzing the

research and then bringing it to mass

audiences. You know, it needs more

information um out there. I know for the

last I've been online for 5 years

talking about it and I know the big boom

of everybody's talking about it. So, I

think it's perfect timing or super

overdue, but I really appreciate you two

both being here. Is there anything that

you want to add before we end about

narcissism or its abuse or what people

think about it that you feel like you

didn't get to say? One thing I'd like to

say is that because of the variability

uh and because of our difficulty with

our classification schemes, um people

need to remember that narcissism comes

in some very different subtypes and

degrees of severity. I'm not sure what

poses the most danger for us socially or

even within an intimate relationship.

Um, there are some narcissists whose self-presentation

self-presentation

is fairly obnoxious. They're vulgar, uh,

contemptuous many times in their

treatment of others. And we say, you

know, how can anybody like this person?

There are some narcissists who have the

gifts of charm and charisma and who can

appear very benign and endearing, almost

magnetic. I'm not really sure which of

those two um is more dangerous. So uh

and and in what respects. So we have a

lot of learning to do. And one of the

things I just pray that we do is to stop

overgeneralizing and to get back to real

science. All of our science has become

so corrupted. One of the reasons we're

not advancing as as far as we need to is

because there's so much bias and there's

so much uh secondary motivation involved

in the research that's happening. It's

happening in every area of science from

pharmaceutical companies uh conducting

the bulk of the research about the

products they want to push and giving

only the data they need to have get out

there in order to be able to

successfully push their products to how

universities are funded. Um, we've got a

lot of work to do to bring science,

genuine science, faithful science, back

to the equation so we can get on with

this business of learning not only what

we're all about, but what ails us and

what we might be able to do about it.

And uh, we need to bring talk about

character disturbance. We need to bring

integrity back to science, too. But

that's another program.

>> Yeah. Multiple spin-off topics here. I

love it, though. I love it. It's

necessary. Yeah.

>> Um, yeah. Thank you, Dr. Peter. Anything

from you?

>> I just want to say I think there's a lot

of interest in having the label. This

really means a lot to people to have

this label. And the labels, I mean,

they're helpful. There's a reason we use

descriptive terms to describe and

explain things. They certainly are

helpful. They're mostly useful in

clinical settings where people have to

figure out what they're working with and

what they're assessing and then how to

treat it. But there is there is value in

these terms I think in the for the

general public as well. But what I would

caution people, you can chase a label

forever. What we're really dealing with

here is we're dealing with whether or

not somebody is harming someone else or

being disagreeable or or lacking

collaboration out of defensiveness. And

can that be healed and mitigated so they

can start collaborating, cooperating? Or

is there an intentionality to the harm

because it benefits these people? And we

can call that a lot of things. We can

call it narcissism. We can call it

psychopathy. We can call it, you know,

character disturbance. We can call it

aggressive, unbridled aggression.

Whatever. We can call it a lot of things

and it probably is all relevant to a

degree. But I think that's the main

question. people who are struggling in

these relationships, whether it's

workrelated or family related or spousal

related, that they need to ask

themselves, they need to figure out a

way to get to the bottom of how

intentional is this? And how likely is

the person willing to give up that

intentionality? Cuz if they aren't

willing to, I don't care what you call

it, you got to be realistic about the

fact that things are probably not going

to change. And then you have a really

important decision to make cuz you could

spend 40 years of your life trying to

get somebody to see uh as Dr. Simon said

when they really already see they just

disagree that they need to do anything

about it.

>> I I love that. I I've said to so many

clients before, you have this need to,

you know, figure him out and then like

word it the right way and explain it the

right way and you know they reject the

idea that they're abusive. So maybe if

you show them in this way and I'm like

what if what would happen for you if you

just could know he already knows. What

would change for you? What could you let

go of if you could accept that they

already know and they don't care? In

fact, maybe they love it possibly. So I

I think a lot can shift in letting go of

the label. Um I know why people want it.

If you know if if I know that they're a

narcissist, then I know that they can't

change and then I can give up. But I've

never seen anybody give up once they

learn the title. They're still actually

or the label, you know, they still tend

to be driven to want to help. So that's

the part to address within yourself, not

not fixing someone else who doesn't even

want to be fixed. Definitely.

>> To add to that, uh Lisa, this is

something that affects too many folks

these days. We call it iatrogenic trauma

or therapy induced trauma. This is when

a couple goes into counseling and the

very behavior that they they wanted the

therapist to see and that has been

distressing them uh and that they would

like some help trying to figure out how

to deal with. When that very behavior

occurs in the therapy room unarrested or

unconfronted or improperly dealt with

for the person that's come for help,

that is trauma all over again. And that

happens all too frequently, I'm afraid,

because there are not that many

clinicians, I don't care what their

their background of training is, there

are all too many clinicians that are not

well enough versed in the unique brand

of therapy that character disturbance requires.

requires.

>> I agree. I agree. It's definitely a

difficult uh disorder. I understand why

a lot of therapists don't take on that

willingly, but I wish that more

therapists knew that those people are

sitting in their offices anyway.

You might not want to specialize in it,

but they're in front of you or at least

possibly in front of you. But >> right,

>> right,

>> thank you so much, Dr. Simon and Dr.

Solano, for being here and having this

conversation with me and bringing more

awareness to this really painful topic

of abusiveness and narcissism and

personality disorders and myths, quite

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Five Dangerous Narcissism Myths PhD Researchers Expose (Therapists Won't Tell You)