0:04 [Music]
0:06 Welcome back to Rocky Man Residential, a
0:08 podcast by MCM Collective. I'm Kelly
0:10 McBartlet and today we have a really
0:12 interesting topic that doesn't get
0:14 discussed a lot in our industry. Uh, and
0:16 I'll turn it over to you, Blake.
0:18 >> Yeah. Hi, I'm Blake McBartlet and yeah,
0:19 let's just start off with tell us a
0:20 little about yourselves and your practice.
0:21 practice.
0:24 >> Sure. So, I'm Lindsay. This is Ben. We
0:26 are the owners and therapists at Evolve
0:28 Counseling Services here in Port
0:31 Collins. and we actually met back in the
0:33 day in our clinical counseling program. Um,
0:34 Um,
0:36 >> very romantic, very patient, right?
0:38 Yeah. And not patience. Yeah,
0:41 >> it's debatable. But, uh, yeah, we, um,
0:43 kind of headed off and after we
0:45 graduated, we started dating and
0:48 eventually got married. So, um,
0:49 throughout the course of our
0:50 relationship, we have worked in a
0:52 variety of clinical settings. We've done
0:55 things like outpatient therapy. We've
0:57 been in treatment centers. We've been in
1:00 hospitals. So we have a lot of clinical
1:02 experience through those um that variety
1:04 of settings and we decided to move
1:06 toward private practice several years
1:09 ago and so we went ahead and proceeded
1:12 with setting up our private practice and
1:15 um have really enjoyed that work. So at
1:17 Evolve we specialize in helping people
1:20 with depression and anxiety and we
1:22 provide individual therapy to folks that
1:26 are 16 years old and and up. And uh we
1:28 operate from a CBT perspective. So
1:31 cognitive behavioral therapy um which is
1:34 a really solid evidence-based modality
1:36 and uh seems to be helpful for a lot of
1:38 people. So that's just a little bit
1:38 about us.
1:41 >> Awesome. Ben, same thing, same focus,
1:41 same area.
1:43 >> Yep. Yep. Very much. We we really want
1:45 to develop like a cohesive focus as a
1:47 practice like like this is what we do.
1:49 This is what we specialize in. Sometimes
1:50 one of the troubles that people run into
1:52 when they're picking a therapist is like
1:54 they they're looking at like psychology
1:55 today and it's like, "Oh, this person
1:57 does everything like and it's it's hard
1:58 to pick." So, we want we want people to
2:01 know like what we do and that they're in
2:01 the right place.
2:04 >> Awesome. You said you focus on CBT.
2:06 >> Yeah. Cognitive behavioral therapy um
2:08 applied to folks with depression and
2:09 anxiety primarily.
2:11 >> Perfect. Well, um we're kind of taking a
2:13 unique approach of like buying and
2:16 selling because it is a big deal
2:18 sometimes filled with lots of emotions.
2:19 So, thank you for being here today and
2:20 kind of bringing your lens to the
2:23 conversation. So, oftent times we refer
2:26 to the D's in real estate and not
2:27 talking about those D's. Um, we're
2:31 focusing on diapers, uh, divorce, death,
2:34 diamonds, kind of like really highs and
2:37 lows of real estate. So, um, how do you
2:40 think therapy or being in tune with like
2:42 you as a person would be helpful when
2:44 going through these home purchase or sell?
2:45 sell?
2:46 >> Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for
2:48 clarifying what we were talking about.
2:51 >> Yes. Um yeah, it's funny. Um you know,
2:53 we we were thinking about this, you
2:54 know, a little bit in advance for today
2:56 and something that came to mind there.
2:57 It's kind of famous. You may see it
2:58 floating around the internet from time
3:01 to time, but it is the uh it's a a life
3:03 stressor scale. It's a rank order of
3:05 like 40 common things that people go
3:08 through. And um it's I think it's by
3:09 Holmes and Ray.
3:12 >> Yeah, if if you care to Google it. But
3:14 um really quick, everything that you
3:15 name there, all all of these D's, all of
3:17 these things, they're all on there. And
3:19 a lot of things that are um even things
3:21 beyond those those those big ones are on
3:22 there, right? Like things like if you're
3:24 um if someone's, you know, starting
3:25 work, ending work, if someone's moving
3:27 for a job, if you're dissolving your
3:29 community because you're moving. So, um
3:30 I think I was looking at it and there
3:32 was like there's like around like 15
3:34 things hit on this stressor scale. So,
3:36 it is a big deal. Um it is one of the
3:37 bigger things that people go through.
3:40 Moving itself is on there. So, um, so I
3:42 guess to answer your question, like how
3:43 does this really, you know, relate to
3:45 therapy? How could therapy support this
3:48 or just having yourself in good order,
3:50 um, really therapy works in a lot of
3:51 ways, like you know, subtle and more
3:53 obvious? Um, you know, I think it's
3:54 therapy is kind of most famous for like
3:56 you can come in there and like bleed off
3:58 some emotion, right? Like you want this
3:59 to go out and, you know, stay in a
4:01 place, you know, with your therapist so
4:03 it's not kind of coming into the room at
4:04 closing day or when you're making
4:08 decisions. um you know therapy more
4:10 maybe is a little lesser known but I
4:11 would say all the more important of like
4:13 like just providing skills right it's
4:15 it's skills and insights of patterns
4:16 right if if you understand how your
4:18 patterns play out around stress well you
4:20 have the opportunity to intervene right
4:22 and have them play out differently and
4:24 there are very learnable skills that you
4:26 can take with you for life from therapy
4:27 um you know these are things that help
4:28 you you know regulate your nervous
4:30 system think you know in a more helpful
4:32 way about what's going on and yeah I
4:34 would say you know please chime in if
4:35 I'm missing anything but That's that's
4:37 really how therapy could show up for this.
4:37 this.
4:39 >> Definitely. And I think it's important
4:41 to recognize too on that life stressor
4:44 scale. It's things that are obviously
4:45 stressful and maybe more negative in
4:48 nature, but it's also the positive
4:49 things. You know, getting married is
4:51 generally a happy thing, but it's still
4:54 stressful. Um, having a baby is
4:55 generally a happy thing, but it's still
4:58 stressful. So, it's not just the
5:01 negative stuff that happens in um life
5:03 that might promote or facilitate a real
5:05 estate transaction. it's also the good
5:07 stuff. And so to just be aware of that
5:09 and how that might be affecting you um
5:12 is is really important. So, uh therapy
5:15 can certainly help recognize um if
5:16 there's any adverse effects from good
5:18 stuff that happens. >> Yeah.
5:19 >> Yeah.
5:21 >> So, a lot of times like these good
5:23 things and moving like it's a transition
5:25 of usually you multiple hits on your
5:25 list, right? >> Yeah.
5:26 >> Yeah.
5:27 >> Let's talk about how much I mean you
5:30 guys have bought and sold homes. um that
5:32 takes a lot of time and it's it's a
5:35 disruptor. Um can you talk about maybe
5:40 some skills that our clients can take to
5:42 like have a more productive day and like
5:44 add this added stress and time?
5:48 >> Yeah. Yeah, you're so right. It's it's
5:50 so much time. It's so much preparation.
5:53 Um it can be very draining. And I think
5:55 on a very basic level, it's really
5:57 important to not forget to do the little
5:59 things. And what I mean by that is kind
6:02 of like basic self-care around you need
6:04 to be sleeping, you need to be eating,
6:05 you need to be exercising, you need to
6:07 have downtime. Those are the things that
6:11 we find slip early on in the process. Um
6:13 they're they're easy to just shove to
6:14 the background and deal with the
6:17 stressor at hand. So um remaining
6:19 steadfast in those self-care practices
6:22 is incredibly important and making time
6:24 for those, not neglecting them. So, I
6:26 think that's the biggest thing kind of
6:28 most easiest and and obvious thing to to
6:31 tackle. But, um, other things that you
6:32 might recommend.
6:33 >> No, I really like your take on self-care
6:35 there. And self-care can be like fairly,
6:36 you know, misunderstood. People hear
6:38 like self-care and they're like, "Spa
6:39 day, let's go." And there's nothing
6:40 wrong with that.
6:44 >> But I mean, French fries. Yeah. Or
6:46 French fries. You're right. So, it can
6:47 be, you know, relaxation or self
6:49 soothing can be part of that, but it
6:50 really is like what are the things that
6:52 help you be like well constituted and in
6:54 good order, right? How can I be in the
6:56 best emotional shape to take on, you
6:58 know, like like the next stressful step
6:59 in this? And there's a lot of research
7:01 in mental health that says like positive
7:03 emotion is the best thing to help
7:04 counteract negative emotion, right? If
7:06 I'm already feeling decent going into
7:07 it, the ups and downs are a little
7:08 easier to take. >> Yeah.
7:08 >> Yeah.
7:10 >> So, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, the skills
7:12 are are numerous, right? Um, cognitive
7:14 behavioral therapy does a lot of like it
7:16 like it's really saying like what we
7:17 think or how we interpret what's
7:19 happening to us really means everything,
7:20 right? And it's a little bit
7:22 mind-blowing sometimes. we go over with,
7:23 you know, with people in therapy, we're
7:25 like, objectively speaking, nothing in
7:27 life is good or bad. And they're like,
7:29 no, no way. It's like, no, it's just
7:31 something that's happening, right? Like
7:32 what you make of it is really kind of
7:34 what what modulates that. Um, and it's
7:35 something that isn't really talked a lot
7:37 about society, but people tend to learn
7:38 in therapy.
7:41 >> Mhm. Yeah. Just just kind of playing off
7:43 that idea, part of what CBT would teach
7:46 is, you know, how are you interpreting
7:48 the uh process of buying the home? If
7:50 the thought process is this is so
7:52 stressful, I can't do this. This is
7:54 going to be a disaster and you're taking
7:57 that kind of catastrophic um look at it,
7:58 well, you're going to feel those
8:02 emotions. So, CBT would teach to um kind
8:04 of take a more objective approach. Let's
8:07 really look at the situation and examine
8:09 some counterarguments to those beliefs.
8:11 Let's create a narrative that's more
8:14 realistic, more objective. And what we
8:16 find is that that helps tone down the
8:19 stressful emotions. So, um, it's very
8:22 counterintuitive for us as humans. We
8:23 tend to just believe what we think and
8:26 we tend to go negative in our thinking.
8:29 Um, so it's it's it takes a little bit
8:31 of time and practice and consistency to
8:33 learn how to see um, situations
8:35 differently and interpret them as more objective.
8:36 objective.
8:38 >> Yep. I've been a therapist for 15 years
8:40 and I'm still working. Yeah. So that sat
8:41 for a while.
8:43 >> Kelly, wouldn't you say though like when
8:45 people come to us a lot of times they've
8:47 been to an open house
8:48 >> or there's like a significant trigger.
8:50 They're like they're going like zero to
8:52 100 right away. Would you agree?
8:55 >> Yeah. Well, and I um I was as you two
8:57 were talking I was thinking about this a
8:59 little bit more and um you know
9:01 typically the the the transaction lasts
9:04 about 30 days, sometimes 60 days.
9:06 >> Um and so those stressors might be
9:09 magnified during that time frame. Um,
9:12 but the research shows that people start
9:14 working for a home 9 months in advance
9:16 of when they actually end up at that
9:19 open house or reach out to one of us. So
9:22 what my question was is if people are
9:23 starting at nine months in advance
9:26 before they reach out reach out to us,
9:27 are there some things they could be
9:28 looking for that might be indicating
9:30 that they're experiencing stress or
9:33 anxiety and then say, should I call a
9:35 therapist right now before I'm at the
9:37 open house and under contract and things
9:39 seem really stressful?
9:42 >> Yeah. Yeah. I think some of the the big
9:45 signs to look for is um is there
9:47 impairment going on in in their world?
9:49 So, what I mean by that is, you know,
9:52 they're they're feeling stressed, but,
9:54 you know, maybe they can't show up to
9:56 work like they used to. Um, they're
9:59 distracted, they can't concentrate. Um,
10:00 those are little indicators. Maybe
10:02 there's some impairment in
10:03 relationships. They're so stressed that
10:05 they're snapping at their partner. Now,
10:07 there's more conflict. Um, they're
10:09 neglecting self-care. That could be a
10:11 little indicator. Um, so
10:12 >> more French fries.
10:13 >> The French fries.
10:16 >> Yes. Donuts, French fries, junk food.
10:18 Yeah. their eating habits have shifted.
10:20 Yeah, that could be an indicator. So,
10:22 other other little subtle signs.
10:23 >> Yeah, you you covered a lot of the big
10:25 ones. I was think like sleep disruption
10:26 is a big thing, right? When when we're
10:29 we we tend to do this thing um it can
10:30 become a little obsessive, right? But
10:32 it's like when we have a problem or
10:33 something that's uncertain, like where
10:35 am I going to move or is this going to
10:36 work out? We tend to just like comb it
10:38 over again and again in our minds. Um
10:40 and sometimes we do that just thinking
10:42 like, well, if I go over it like an 18th
10:44 time, maybe I'll get an answer, but it
10:46 tends not to go that way, right? So, so
10:47 you know that that or just just the kind
10:49 of stress or tension can keep people up
10:51 at night. Um, it could be bodily tension
10:53 as well, right? The the mind body
10:54 connections just just kind of
10:56 inseparable. And sometimes people just,
10:58 you know, um, we've definitely had
11:00 clients that are like, I feel it here. I
11:01 get this knot in my shoulder and right
11:03 when when it's getting the best of me
11:04 >> physical illness.
11:06 >> That could even be I mean it could play
11:07 hand in hand. They might be scrolling
11:09 Zillow because they can't sleep
11:12 >> because of the give out rush. That might
11:14 be an indicator like I'm feeling my time
11:16 distracted. at the middle of the night
11:17 scrolling Zulu and maybe I should reach
11:18 out to a third.
11:20 >> Yeah, absolutely.
11:21 >> So, you're not healthy to look at
11:23 building planes at 3:00 a.m. is what I'm
11:25 hearing. Yeah. Asking for a friend. >> Yeah.
11:27 >> Yeah.
11:29 >> Um, so what are some healthy ways of
11:31 dealing with like this roommate? Like,
11:33 how do you like I mean, how do you turn
11:34 it off? >> Yeah.
11:36 >> Yeah.
11:38 If if we had a a magic answer, I would
11:40 certainly share it that you can't
11:42 necessarily stop your thoughts or stop
11:44 the rumination from happening, but you
11:47 can put some containment around it. So,
11:49 one of the more go-to techniques around
11:51 this um is called the thought corral.
11:54 And basically what it means is you allow
11:57 the rumination to happen, but you put it
11:59 in a corral. You essentially designate
12:02 times throughout the day that's 20
12:03 minutes where you are going to sit down
12:05 and you are going to stew and you're
12:06 going to obsess and you are going to
12:09 just go for it as hard as you can. But
12:11 when that 20 minutes is up, you do your
12:13 best to mindfully attend to the other
12:15 things in your day. So you put some
12:17 containment around it, but you let your
12:19 thoughts do what they want to do. Um
12:22 because there is no just turning it off.
12:23 >> So that would like some people are
12:25 really into time blocking. Yeah,
12:27 >> this would be like adding an appointment
12:28 on your calendar to
12:31 >> like stress and worry. >> Yeah.
12:32 >> Yeah.
12:34 >> No, it it sounds funny, but that we we
12:36 you know, a lot of people really do have
12:38 success with that. And kind of the one
12:39 of the other ways it works is is like if
12:41 you find yourself wanting to ruminate,
12:43 you get to go, "No, I I I have a place
12:44 to do it later." Right? It helps you
12:46 kind of like delay because you you know
12:47 you're going to get to it. Mhm.
12:50 >> Um it can also be helpful too with like
12:53 ruminative thinking is is like um a lot
12:54 of people ruminating, they're looking
12:56 for certainty, right? It's a very
12:57 uncertain situation. I don't know where
12:58 I'm going to move, when I'm going to
12:59 move, how much it's going to cost, is it
13:00 going to work out, what's my house going
13:02 to sell for? Um and and you really can't
13:04 get answers to those till you get there.
13:06 So it instead of like trying to figure
13:08 that out in like a really certain
13:09 certain terms, it's probably better to
13:11 ask like, well, how would I cope if
13:13 something I feared is happening? What's
13:15 one small thing I can do today to move
13:17 towards that goal? Right? A lot of
13:18 things aren't solvable. You know, like
13:20 you said, it's a 30-day, 60-day process,
13:21 right? But what's one thing I can do to
13:23 move this forward today? And that kind
13:24 of helps people and gives them some of
13:26 the some of the power back. Like, hey,
13:27 I'm a little more capable at dealing
13:29 with this than than maybe I'm giving
13:29 myself credit.
13:31 >> Sure. Yeah. Actionable steps.
13:32 >> Yeah, definitely.
13:33 >> So, I heard some like themes and that
13:35 kind of like sum it up as like maybe
13:38 control being like a big reason to have
13:40 like stress and anxiety.
13:40 >> Oh, yes.
13:42 >> Would you find that true? Yeah, very
13:43 much. Yeah.
13:46 >> Yeah. We as humans love control. We're
13:49 control enthusiasts. And when we don't
13:52 have that, um we just we feel very out
13:55 of sort. And so there's a concept in
13:58 therapy and in the literature called um
14:00 uncertainty tolerance. Instead of
14:03 driving for control and getting control,
14:05 that that's not always possible. So what
14:08 we have to do is learn to tolerate the
14:10 uncertainty. We need to build a thicker
14:12 skin around not having control because
14:14 much of life is out of our control. So
14:18 you do that in little ways. You practice
14:20 being out of control and accepting it,
14:23 tolerating it. Um not necessarily
14:26 enjoying it, but you are just being
14:28 present with that sensation. And the
14:30 more you do that, the more you tend to
14:32 desensitize to the fear of being out of
14:34 control. So you hang out with the
14:35 uncertainty, you make friends with it,
14:38 and all of a sudden you're able to take
14:40 on a lot more in terms of being out of
14:42 control than you previously were.
14:44 >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, being
14:45 out of control kind of puts a pit in my
14:47 stomach, and I don't feel good about it.
14:48 And I don't know that I I can sit with
14:50 it indefinitely, but could I sit with it
14:52 for 10 minutes, right? Could I practice
14:53 getting used to that? >> Yeah.
14:54 >> Yeah.
14:55 >> Yeah. It's like exercise, doing
14:57 repetitions of it, and one day you're
14:59 stronger. Same thing with your ability
15:02 to um tolerate just those feelings of
15:03 not having control.
15:05 >> Well said, Kelly. What do you think
15:06 about like our viney and sewing process
15:10 that we do to help kind of eliminate
15:13 >> or really reduce this need to like
15:15 control and really how how do you as a
15:17 professional help guide that and reduce
15:19 stress and anxiety around this topic?
15:22 >> Well, I think it all comes down to um
15:24 time and preparation. Um, so in our
15:26 industry, like Blake said, sometimes
15:29 people think they want something at a
15:32 very quick pace, um, or want to, for
15:34 instance, just go see the house, um,
15:36 before they've maybe sat down and had a
15:40 conversation with us as realtors. Um, or
15:42 they want to get their house on the
15:44 market next week without analyzing all
15:47 the data. Um, and so I think that all
15:48 comes down to preparation. So, one of
15:49 the things we do, for instance, with
15:52 buyers, um, is when we meet with them,
15:55 we go through a, uh, a detailed process
15:57 that ask very specific questions that
16:00 have been developed over time, uh, to
16:03 help, uh, really define what they're
16:06 looking for, really uh, help to
16:07 understand what their control triggers
16:08 are. That's what I'm going to call it.
16:11 That's probably not a real term. Um,
16:13 but so often they're trying to control
16:16 this process. And what we have is homes
16:18 that don't really fit those boundaries
16:20 or that criteria. And so we have to
16:22 really help guide them into what will
16:24 really work. A particular technique that
16:26 I like a lot in the process that we use
16:30 is with couples um or two buying parties
16:32 whether they're married or not um that
16:34 we go through a process of asking them
16:36 what their top priorities are in the
16:38 home, having them star the things that
16:39 are most important to them and then
16:44 talking about that uh uh together uh and
16:46 having each partner identify their their
16:49 their most important things. Um, the
16:50 reason that this becomes really
16:52 important with couples is that a lot of
16:54 times there's a party that isn't as
16:56 vocal or is willing to seed that power
17:00 to the other person. Um, and uh, and
17:02 what where this comes up is they try to
17:04 regain that control or power later in
17:05 the process if we haven't discussed it
17:07 by saying, "I always wanted a house and
17:08 have to have a house with a tub that
17:10 they've never talked about before."
17:12 >> And then we, you know, we're kind of
17:13 back to square one uh, after we've been
17:15 looking at homes for, you know, two or
17:17 three months. So,
17:18 >> would you say that's Yeah,
17:20 >> I would agree. And there's no such thing
17:22 as a perfect house. So, I think like
17:24 setting expectations is interesting.
17:26 Statistics show if it's like 80ish% of
17:28 what is in the home is what you want,
17:30 then you'll should be happy for a
17:32 nominal amount of time that's like a
17:32 normal time,
17:34 >> 5 to seven years usually.
17:37 >> So, let's talk about like power dynamics
17:38 and like couples because a lot of times
17:40 there's always like a third either
17:42 another vested party or a third party.
17:45 So maybe like a child's buying their
17:47 first home. Well, it's the child's home,
17:49 but the parents are doing the down payment.
17:49 payment. >> Mh.
17:50 >> Mh.
17:52 >> Or two people are coming together, maybe
17:53 getting married, getting engaged. Money
17:56 is not equitable or equal, I think, is
17:58 actually a better word. Or maybe parents
18:01 are selling, not parents are selling,
18:03 yeah, maybe like children are selling
18:04 their parents home. >> Yeah,
18:04 >> Yeah,
18:06 >> there's a lot of dynamics there. So what
18:09 are what are some ways to what can we do
18:11 as realtors to help facilitate? So not
18:12 therapist was something like that. Very
18:14 scary. Yeah. But like a lot of times
18:16 like conversations hit in the moment and
18:18 there really is no time to like call you
18:19 two to be like help me. >> Yeah.
18:20 >> Yeah.
18:21 >> So what are some things that we could be
18:22 aware of? Not to mention we don't have
18:23 them on retainer.
18:26 >> No shame or instead of like a bat signal
18:28 situation, right?
18:30 >> Um you guys really do um I imagine just
18:32 run into like like you guys are just
18:34 like amateur couples therapists all of a
18:36 sudden, right? Like these these dynamics
18:37 just suddenly play out under stress and
18:39 that's how mental health dynamics tend
18:41 to go in general, right? is like
18:42 something that's there and like is you
18:43 know the couple's generally kind of
18:45 getting away with like stress kind of
18:47 brings it out and brings it to the
18:49 forefront. Um I loved about you know
18:50 hearing about your process of like how
18:52 you actually sit down and get ahead of
18:53 this. Maybe I'm guessing maybe you
18:55 learned that from experience. Um
18:57 >> bring it the hard way.
18:59 >> But yeah, like a little bit
19:01 this is a huge part like we talk about
19:04 this in CBT is is like one of the things
19:06 that can generate a lot of like just
19:07 negative thinking and negative emotion
19:10 is like having unmet expectations. And
19:11 we have expectations about everything
19:14 whether we realize it or not, right? So
19:15 you guys do a great job of just
19:16 eliciting that right through through
19:19 your natural experiences and um you know
19:21 I I would recommend to you know whether
19:23 it be you guys facilitating this with
19:24 you know a third party to the
19:26 transaction or if it's just a couple you
19:27 know taking care of this too but it's
19:29 like yeah how do you bring as many of
19:31 those expectations as possible out in
19:32 the open right through some whatifs.
19:35 How's it going to feel right um if you
19:36 make this down payment? How's it going
19:38 to feel to receive this down payment?
19:39 Does that create a hierarchical
19:42 relationship or a power differential? >> Yeah.
19:42 >> Yeah.
19:44 >> Yeah. And in the moment, it's so tricky
19:46 when you see it playing out and there
19:49 hasn't been time to prep for it. Um, you
19:50 guys might have to do a little
19:52 refereeing in these conversations and,
19:54 you know, very politely and gently tell
19:56 one party to, you know, pipe down a
19:59 little bit so another party can speak.
20:02 So, um, that's a tricky thing to do, but
20:04 um, you guys with your professionalism,
20:06 like I'm sure you're fine. But yeah, it
20:10 might be actually um encouraging a party
20:12 to be a little more quiet and you know
20:13 asking some more direct questions of
20:16 somebody who's being um quiet or not
20:18 bringing their needs to the forefront. A
20:20 >> a huge thing that we help people with in
20:21 therapy for all sorts of reasons is
20:23 assertiveness training. Right there
20:24 there are lots of people that just have
20:26 trouble and you know we hear the term
20:27 assertiveness, but it's like what does
20:28 that really mean? And it's like it's
20:30 asking for what you want or need in a
20:32 way that respects how I feel and the way
20:34 the other person feels, right? No one's
20:36 getting stepped on. In other words, and
20:38 it can be really difficult. Um, again,
20:39 this could be another dynamic that is
20:42 kind of coming out under the stress. Um,
20:44 anecdotally, I' I've had some clients
20:46 where, you know, the couple moves and
20:47 one of the other feels really resentful
20:49 like after the fact because they didn't
20:50 feel heard. The house isn't actually
20:53 what they want. And really, no one feels
20:54 good about it, right? The other the
20:55 partner that did get what they want is
20:58 going, "Well, I I had no idea." Right?
20:59 >> So, so yeah. So, I
21:00 >> had no idea about the bathtub.
21:02 >> About the bathtub, right? Is is it
21:04 always a bathtub? Right. It's a fireplace.
21:05 fireplace. >> Okay.
21:06 >> Okay.
21:09 >> Well, a lot of times couples will go
21:11 into the home and they will split up. >> Yeah.
21:11 >> Yeah.
21:13 >> A lot of that these couples do not look
21:14 at homes together like room by room.
21:16 It's not this facilitated house centers experience,
21:17 experience, >> right?
21:18 >> right?
21:20 >> People naturally go to what is most
21:21 important to them.
21:23 >> Yeah. Yeah. And then sometimes if like
21:24 Kelly and I if we're going together,
21:26 we'll like
21:27 >> t I don't want to say tag team, that
21:29 sounds weird, but we'll split up with
21:31 them with that other or we're like
21:33 pinging back and forth while we're
21:34 looking at homes to make sure that we're
21:37 hearing both needs at once. And also
21:38 always having like a huddle outside of
21:40 the house which are everybody to talk
21:42 about it like a debriefer. Yeah. Do I
21:43 just see about it? And then bring up the
21:45 things that the bathtub. Hey, this this
21:46 house didn't have a bathtub. >> Sure.
21:46 >> Sure.
21:48 >> Um how does everybody feel about that?
21:51 Um, you know, you were talking about,
21:53 um, you know, being really, uh, specific
21:55 about, um, you know, like these power
21:56 dynamics, especially when it comes to
21:58 money. That's probably where we most
21:59 often see it.
22:00 >> Um, there's also a lot of legal
22:02 implications when money's changing
22:04 hands, especially if a couple's not
22:06 married. And so sometimes we encounter
22:08 issues where people are very
22:10 unsophisticated and with the legal
22:12 issues that might come up with that and
22:15 find ourselves having to
22:18 pull the non-power person aside and say, "Hey,
22:20 "Hey,
22:21 these are some other things you might
22:22 consider and you might talk to an
22:25 attorney." It's awkward though. And the
22:27 question for you is how do we, you know,
22:29 you have the other party there that has
22:30 the money. >> Um,
22:30 >> Um,
22:32 >> how do you kind of bring everybody
22:33 together? What would you recommend in
22:35 that scenario? uh you know because we're
22:38 I feel an obligation to protect the um
22:40 you the low power person um but the high
22:42 power person has all the power and all
22:42 the money.
22:46 >> Yeah. Ah it's so hard um you know it
22:49 kind of akin to family therapy or
22:52 couples therapy and setting expectations
22:55 at the outset. So before you guys even
22:57 get into those discussions, um what is
22:59 the expectation? If there's going to be
23:00 hard conversations that are happening,
23:03 we're all going to have them together or
23:05 is it appropriate to be pulling people
23:07 to the side? So setting up those
23:09 parameters early on so that way people
23:11 aren't surprised if you pull somebody
23:15 off or um just getting everybody on the
23:16 same page ahead of time of how those
23:19 things are going to go um is is really
23:22 important and can uh decrease conflict
23:23 down the line when you're in those moments.
23:24 moments.
23:26 >> Um outside of that. Yeah.
23:28 >> Yeah. No, and and if you need to do it a
23:30 little more on the fly like the doulie,
23:31 you've done it up front and you know if
23:33 this helps either you two or any anyone
23:34 watching, right? Uh, this is the closest
23:36 thing I have to a Jedi mind trick as a
23:37 therapist. This is one of my favorite
23:38 things, but it they they call it's like
23:40 the courtesy and permission technique.
23:42 And you you you give someone like the
23:44 courtesy of like a little more difficult
23:45 conversation's coming, like you tell
23:47 them that. You get their permission to
23:48 have it with them, right? So, that just
23:50 looks like you you might say to the
23:52 couple, right, without um feeling like
23:53 you're splitting between either of them
23:55 like, "Hey, could I bring up a difficult
23:57 dynamic that I'm maybe seeing between
23:58 you two?"
24:00 >> And and it it creates a little curiosity
24:02 because no one ever says no to it.
24:03 They're like, "Well, I got to know what
24:05 it is." But but if they say, "Yeah,
24:06 yeah, that's okay." Like, they gave your
24:07 per, you know, they gave you permission
24:09 to have this conversation, which helps
24:11 lower defensiveness as well. It's like,
24:12 hey, you were consenting to this. I
24:14 didn't just out of the blue go, "Hey,
24:17 you need to pipe down and let you know,
24:19 let them have their say, right?"
24:21 >> Yeah. Yeah.
24:23 >> I have like one final question because I
24:25 think we're getting close to time, yet
24:27 like social norms and like the American
24:29 dream involves purchasing a home.
24:31 >> Homes are getting expensive.
24:33 generational wealth isn't really passing
24:36 the same way it did. What would you or
24:39 how would you communicate like the
24:41 pressure of home buying in terms of like
24:42 your friend just bought a big beautiful
24:44 house so like now you need to also
24:46 socially purchase the big home like how
24:48 would you define like what what what
24:50 emotion is that do you think and like
24:50 how would you
24:54 >> I I think it has roots in comparing and
24:56 we live in a culture with social media
24:57 where all you do all day is scroll on
24:59 your phone and compare to other people
25:02 and you know you see your friends buying
25:04 houses on on social media and it really
25:08 makes you feel insufficient. Um, it
25:11 makes you feel like you're lacking. Um,
25:15 and so the the comparison act itself is
25:16 incredibly not helpful, but it's
25:18 something that we very much do naturally
25:21 as people. So to train that out of folks
25:24 is is a really hard thing to do. But um,
25:26 you know, I I think we would take an
25:29 approach of using that person's values,
25:32 that person's path that they're on. what
25:36 does their living experience um in terms
25:38 of their residence, what what fits for
25:42 them. Maybe it's not owning a home and
25:43 normalizing that there's different ways
25:45 to do this and that's okay, but it's
25:47 their own unique journey and path. It
25:49 doesn't matter what their college
25:51 friends are doing at this point. Um
25:53 again, easier said than done, but yeah,
25:56 would you add anything to that? Yeah, it
25:57 people can do this with a lot of things
25:59 and it can be material possessions as
26:00 well, but it's like hitting this
26:03 milestone having you know so fancy of a
26:04 house or a car or whatever it is. It's
26:06 like sometimes we we kind of conflate
26:09 like that's what gives me value, right?
26:10 And other people see that and approve of
26:12 me to that, but realistically that's not
26:14 what gives people value. And I I bring
26:15 people back to that like like kind of
26:17 ground them. I'll just ask the why do
26:19 people actually like you,
26:20 >> right? Like like what are those human
26:21 and interpersonal qualities that that
26:24 attract people to you? And and it's like
26:25 and it's never like, man, people just
26:28 like me because, you know, I'm dressed
26:29 so well or I have this house or
26:31 whatever. And and if that is the reason
26:33 they liked you, that's pretty suspect,
26:35 right? So it it's like these things
26:37 don't define your value. They're it's
26:38 just a thing. It's just a life
26:40 milestone. Hit it on your own terms. >> Yeah.
26:41 >> Yeah. >> Awesome.
26:42 >> Awesome.
26:43 >> Well, thank you. I was just kind of
26:44 curious about Yeah. Great question.
26:46 Social run and like people's
26:47 expectations. So,
26:49 >> well, thank you so much for joining us
26:50 today. It's been great learning more
26:53 about how the two coincide. So, just
26:54 want to thank you for your time.
26:55 >> Yeah. Well, thank you guys for having
26:57 >> Thanks for having us. Yeah. And we'll
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