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Who Is the Angel of the Lord? How to Find Jesus in the Old Testament pt 4

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This content explores the identity of the "Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament, arguing that this figure is a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ, demonstrating a complex, divine nature that foreshadows the Trinity and Jesus's role in salvation.

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in our continued study of Jesus in the

Old Testament we've come to the topic

that I've been very excited to talk

about which is the angel of the Lord we

get this character throughout the Old

Testament where multiple times he shows

up and the question is you read the

details about him you go who is this

like is this an angel or is this Yahweh

is this God who is this person exactly

so what we're gonna do I'll give you the

format for how I'm gonna cover this

hopefully we'll get it all done tonight

but I'm not gonna promise that my plan

is this first we'll talk about who the

angel of the Lord is by looking you know

systematically through those passages

multiple appearances of this particular

interesting character in the Old

Testament then I want to answer the

question even if I identify this as

Yahweh as God why do I say it's Jesus

why what justification would I have for

suggesting that this angel of the Lord

is actually Jesus and then I want to

start to look into objections and that

might be where we run out of time so if

we run out we'll pick up next time at

the exact same spot but I want to look

at objections because I think it's

really important what I what I see in

the teaching as I was researching for

this is people teach about how who the

angel of the Lord is from like they're

kind of Christians teaching to the

Christian audience but then there's the

nontrinitarian groups who teach about

the angel of the Lord and they love

nothing more than to harp on that issue

and they have lots of videos online but

we never see the two sides interacting

and so I would like to bring those

objections up after we've walked through

all the texts and show why I think that

those objections don't stand it's

important that we cover them though

because at first they sound very

impressive but then you think about them

a little bit and and I think it might

help so our main goal as we look at

these different passages we're starting

in Genesis 16 verse 7 the main goal is

just understanding who is this person so

I'm gonna I'm gonna skip over you know

things like details about the story that

are unrelated to identifying who this

person is I'll skip over a lot of that

stuff so it sort of we're digging in for

a specific purpose so here we are in

Genesis 16 verse 7 Hagar is running away

from Sarai Hagar is pregnant at Sarah's

request Hagar and Abraham or Abram sleep

together then they produce and she

becomes his konkey

this kind of weird stuff goes on and of

course tension arises when she becomes

pregnant despises Sarah and she runs

away so verse 7 the angel of the Lord

and there's the first time we get that

that phrase coming up in the Bible this

is the very first instance of it the

angel of the Lord found her by a spring

of water in the wilderness the spring on

the way - sure and he said Hagar servant

of Sarai where have you come from

and where are you going she said I'm

fleeing from my mistress Sarah the angel

of the Lord said to her return to your

mistress and submit to her now let's

just say this so far the identity of

this particular individuals unknown

right he's called the angel of the Lord

and that's probably in capitals in your

in your Bible there that's Yahweh this

is God's actual name so right so this is

the angel of Yahweh and so we don't know

who he is just yet but let's keep

reading verse 10 the angels the Lord

also said to her I will surely multiply

your offspring so that they cannot be

numbered for multitude and now we go huh

you're gonna multiply her offspring

you're the angel of the Lord and you're

the one doing the multiplying this

sounds kind of like what God said to

Abraham I will multiply your offspring

oh that's a Jew but the angel of the

Lord here is claiming that he'll be the

one to multiply the offspring that's

just interesting verse 11 and the angel

of the Lord said to her behold you are

pregnant and shall bear a son you shall

call his name Ishmael because the Lord

has listens to your affliction okay well

in verse 9 the implication is for that

verse 10 the implication was this angel

of Lord is actually Yahweh because he's

the one doing the multiplying that

language seems to speak of God and his

promise to Abraham but then we get to

verse 11 and the angel of Yahweh speaks

about Yahweh the Lord has heard your

affliction so he always a different

person verse 12 he shall be a wild

donkey of a man his hand against

everyone and everyone's hand against him

he shall dwell over against all his

kinsmen so she called the name of the

Lord who spoke to her you are a God of

seeing for she said truly here I have I

seen him sue me truly here I have seen

him who looks after me forgive me I

still quote the New King James on

instantly without thinking about Paula

pointed out the other day she's like you

keep quoting the New King James even

though you're reading the ESV it's not

on purpose so what did she say in verse

13 that was in my mind just blows my

mind she called the name of the Lord who

spoke to her

Yahweh who spoke to her you are a God of

seeing and then she said to make in case

it couldn't be more clear truly here I

have seen him who looks after me who is

God clearly in the text so we have this

individual who comes he's the angel of

the Lord in this very first instance

occurrence of this phrase the angel of

the Lord he shows up he speaks on behalf

of Yahweh he talks as though he is

Yahweh he says I will multiply your

descendants yet he talks about Yahweh

like you always somebody else that's

interesting huh and then she says he was

Yahweh and I saw him and he spoke to me

so she identifies him as Yahweh in fact

that phrase who spoke to her this is

some people would say well this is

obviously not Yahweh who's you know the

angel spoke and Yahweh also spoke but in

verse 8 9 10 11 and then finally 13 the

the person speaking is the angel of the

Lord so clearly this is the angel to

Lord who is it who's being spoken of

here yes okay so that's that's the first

instance first occurrence of the angel

is the Lord and you see what we're gonna

do we're gonna put the pieces together

we'll read the account and go who could

this person be so it's a really

interesting kind of I will study when

you think about it and it really boils

down to the glory of Jesus Christ at the

end of the story when you when you

really put it all together so let's look

at Genesis 21 we have another instance

where we get the angel of the Lord in

fact specifically it's the angel of God

and sometimes this individual is called

the angel of the Lord sometimes he's

called the angel of God so Genesis 21

verse 17 it says and God heard the voice

of the boy and the angel of God called

to Hagar from heaven and said to her so

we're back to Hagar again later on

Ishmael's actually a child now and here

God heard the voice of the boy and the

angel of God called to Hagar from heaven

and said to her what troubles you Hagar

fear not for God has heard the voice of

the boy where he is up lift up the boy

and hold him fast with your hand i4i me

I will make him into a great nation now

who's who's speaking here it says God

heard the voice and the angel of God

calls to Hagar that's in verse 11 for 17

then in verse 18 continuing to speak

it's the angel of God who's speaking and

he says again I will make him into a

great nation so I think of this is

interesting this once again we're we're

getting this sort of muddying of the

waters who's who's speaking ears as the

angel orders it's the Lord and I think

and this is what I'm gonna say

throughout that as we look at these

different texts the muddying the

confusion is intentional maybe sometimes

when the Bible makes things unclear it's

unclear on purpose because that's the

point so let's let's keep reading so

we'll get to Abraham offering Isaac and

that's in Genesis 22

Genesis 22 verse 1 of Genesis 22 it says

after these things God tested Abraham

and said to him Abraham and he said Here

I am he said take your son your only son

Isaac whom you love and go to the land

of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt

offering on one of the mountains of

which I shall tell you

so who speaks to Abraham God clearly God

in this text it's God speaking to

Abraham and he's going to be offering

his son and who do you think is it is it

implied who will Abraham offer his son

to not Baal hey God he's gonna offer his

son to God that's from God's own command

so this is clearly God but then let's

keep reading verse 13 as we keep I'm

sorry verse 10 as we keep going through

Genesis 22

so then Abraham reached out his hand and

took the knife to slaughter his son but

the angel of the Lord and now we get

this this individual again called to him

from heaven and said Abraham Abraham and

he said Here I am and notice even the

the way he calls his identical to the

way God called earlier God called and he

says Abraham and Abraham says Here I am so

the Angels the Lord calls him from

heaven says Abraham Abraham he said Here

I am he said do not lay your hand on the

boy or do anything to him for now I know

that you fear God okay so at this point

in the text I'm going okay this angels

Lord's not God because he goes don't

touch him cuz I know you fear God seeing

that you have not withheld your son your

only son from me wait wait a minute in

verse one God not the angel God is the

one who tells Abraham sacrifice your son

obviously it's gonna be to God then the

angel of the Lord shows up and he says I

know you fear God because you haven't

withheld your son from me I think it's

an intentional puzzle

I think it's an intentional puzzle let's

keep in mind that the scripture tells us

that in Jesus there is a mystery revealed

revealed

there is a question that's answered in

the identity of Jesus Christ as we see

him in the New Testament and that I

think connects to how we see Jesus in

the Old Testament we see oftentimes the

question marks it's like the old the old

traditional Church answer is Jesus to

everything well in some cases it really

is and in this sense we see Jesus in the

let's keep reading in verse 13 let's

this Lacan says and Abraham lifted up

his eyes and looked and behold behind

him was a ram caught in a thicket by his

thorn his horns excuse me and Abraham

went and took the RAM and offered it up

as a burnt offering instead of his son

so Abraham called the name of that place

the Lord will provide Jehovah Jireh or

Yahweh Jireh as it is said to this day

on the Mount of the Lord it shall be

provided and the angel of the Lord

called to Abraham a second time from

heaven and said now who's calling to

Abraham now the angel of the Lord and he

says by myself I have sworn declares the Lord

Lord

I'll keep it that's like almost normal

language for a prophet thus saith the

Lord okay so now he seems to be separate

from the Yahweh are different than

Yahweh so by myself I've sworn declares

the Lord because you've done this and if

not withheld your son your only son I

will surely bless you well who's doing

the blessing now

well now it's God right the angels

saying God will bless you and I will

surely multiply your offspring as the

stars of heaven as the sands on the

seashore and your offspring shall

possess the gate of his enemies and in

your offspring shall all the nations of

the earth be blessed because you have

obeyed my voice so I think that there's

this natural tension I mean we have the

Angels Lord saying I'm gonna do this

Abraham I will bless you he says I'm

gonna bless Ishmael as well but then

here we have him saying God says he'll

bless well what's going on here let's

look at Genesis 31 here's another

another passes Genesis chapter 31 and

while you're on your way there this

actually did puzzle ancient Israelites

and there were even those who in oh man

I may do more research on this and bring

it to you guys sometime but there are

even those who believed in sort of two

powers two different sort of it's hard

to use language to describe what they

were thinking but they were thinking

there were like two yahweh's somehow

because they were reading these texts

going how do we explain this and it

wasn't until like the second century

after Christ that they made that a

heresy in Judaism and said that's not

appropriate you can't say that sort of

thing so it's interesting as it sort of

lays the groundwork for I understanding

who Jesus is later on I think Genesis 31

verse 11 we get the angel of God again

it says then the angel of God said to me

in a dream

Jacob and I said Here I am and he said

lift up your eyes and see all the goats

that mate with the flock are striped

spotted and modeled for I have seen all

that Laban is doing to you so here we

have the angel of God and so far he's

just the angel of God you would you

would naturally not think this was God

you would just think it's the angel of

God a Messenger of God but in verse 13

he continues speaking and he says this I

am the god of Bethel he doesn't say thus

saith the Lord I am the God of Bethel he

doesn't say the Lord declares he just

says straight out let's read it again in

context right lift up your eyes and see

all the goats that mate with the flock

ur striped spotted and modeled for I've

seen all that Laban is doing to you I am

the god of Bethel where you anointed a

pillar and made a vow to me now arise go

out from this land and return to the

land of your kindred

here this to me is is even stronger than

everything we've heard so far because

the angel is a straight-up says I'm God

I'm God he just declares himself I am

the God of Bethel he doesn't say the

Lord says or anything like that

he just declares it in Genesis 28 we

actually get that story of Bethel so let

me read to you really quick what he's

referring to when he says I'm the God of

Bethel it's it's Genesis 28 12 he says

any dreamed and behold there was a

ladder set up on the earth and the top

of it reached to heaven and behold the

angels of God were ascending and

descending on it and behold the Lord

stood above it and said I am the Lord

the God of Abraham your father and the

god of Isaac the land on which you lie I

will give you I will give to you and to

your offspring so that God this angel

says I'm that God that's pretty clear I

don't know what I would do with this

except for have to acknowledge that in

some sense the angel is God it's Yahweh

but in another sense the angel the Lord

seems to speak as though Yahweh is

somehow other really interesting stuff

so that same Jacob years later he speaks

a blessing on ephraim and manasseh you

might be familiar with this these are

these are two boys and he switches his

hands over so he blesses the older

versus the younger and and it's kind of

controversial stuff going on there and

in Genesis 48 we read about it Genesis

48 15 and let's let's listen to how he

blesses them they are Joseph's sons and

so verse 15 it says any blessed Joseph

and said the God before whom my father's

Abraham and Isaac walked the God who has

been my Shepherd all my life long to

this day the angel who has redeemed me

from all evil blessed the boys that's

interesting isn't it he says God who is

this person God who is this person the

angel who is this person and then

singular blessed the boys the blessings

coming from God who is also

the angel the angel who's redeemed me

from all evil that's really interesting

now you could say well Mike God is

simply doing it through the angel like

he's just like God bless the boys and do

it through your angel the problem with

this sort of tactic is that it doesn't

let the text say what it says you have

to add words right in order to say that

you have to go God who this and this guy

who listen is the angel the context is

you have these three statements about

one being taking an action that's the

context you have to just add words to

the text the angel you know through whom

God will bring this blessing like you

have to just sort of stick it in there

it's kind of like when I'm encountering

Jehovah's Witnesses and the scripture in

John 5 it says that Jesus made himself

equal with God and they constantly add

to the text and they say well that's

just what the Pharisees thought and I'll

go well that would be convenient it

would help you with your theology but

it's not what the text actually says you

can't just add to the text you got to

let us say so the most natural reading

is an order one more time the God before

whom my father's Abraham and Isaac

walked the God who has been my Shepherd

all my life long to this day the angel

who has redeemed me from all evil bless

the boys and so I'm couple that with the

passage we just went to where the angel

of God came and said I'm the God of

Bethel so it makes sense and you can

understand why he would even put it that

way because that angel had been room

that angel had been revealed as the god

of Bethel all right

let's guess let's ask another question

at the burning bush what happened there

who appeared to Moses in the burning

bush so let's look at Exodus chapter 3

Exodus chapter 3 and we're gonna read a

and by putting all this together you can

see that there is a consistent flow of

thought this is not chicanery this is

not like you know Bible study trickery

going on this is just the text itself

and X's three it says now Moses was

keeping the flock of his father-in-law

Jethro the priest of Midian and he led

his flock to the west side of the

wilderness and came to Horeb the

mountain of God and the angel of the

Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire

out of the midst of a bush I wonder how

many of us have read this and didn't

realize the person in the bush is the

angel of the Lord he appears out of a

flame of fire or in a flame of fire out

of the midst of the bush he looked and

behold the bush was burning yet it was

not consumed and that's the thing that

caught his attention he's like how is it

it's like on fire but it's still got

green leaves like what's going on and

Moses said I will turn aside to see this

great sight why the bush is not burned

when the and by the way when you're a

shepherd out in the middle of nowhere

that's a really interesting thing to go

look at I'm yeah I think II maybe

nowadays were harder to entertain but I

feel like what is that exactly he wanted

to go check it out

I mean if you have a funny-looking

cricket you'll probably follow it around

for a little while out there I imagine

so verse four when the Lord saw that he

turned aside to see God called to him

out of the bush but who's in the bush

though the angel of the Lord who calls

to Moses out of the bush God it's God

speaking from the bush but the angel of

the Lord is in the bush let's keep

reading it says Moses Moses and he said

Here I am then he said do not come near

take your sandals off your feet for the

place on which you were standing is holy

ground and he said I am the God of your

father the God of Abraham the god of

Isaac and the God of Jacob

now this is okay for the angel of the

Lord to actually be God in some sense

because we've already got the groundwork

laid in Genesis for this concept so

Moses hid his face for he was afraid to

look at God so the only thing that we

know that he can see is the fire and the

angel Lord appears in the fire and now

it's saying that he doesn't want to look

at God and the only visible thing that

we know that he can look at is the angel

of the Lord in the fire so that the

identity of these two beings is being

merged in some sense then in verse 7

then the Lord said I have surely seen

the affliction of my people who were in

Egypt and have heard their cry because

of their taskmasters I know their

sufferings and I've come down to deliver

them and he goes on and talks about what

he's going to do I just want to point

out that it's Yahweh who speaks here

according to verse 7 and then in verse

11 but Moses said to God so he's talking

to God Who am I that I should go to

Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel

out of Egypt he said but I will be with

you God says God will be with him and

this shall be the sign for you that I

have sent you when you have brought the

people out of Egypt you shall serve God

on this mountain and now we have God

referring to God in the second person

that's interesting is that third person

third person yeah second person will be

you so you shall serve God on this

mountain then Moses said to God if I

come to the people of Israel and say to

them the god of your father's has sent

me to you and they asked what is his

name what shall you say to them what

shall I say to them God said to Moses I

am Who I am and he said say to the

people of Israel I am has sent me to you

I want to remember these things because

we're going to come back to them a

little bit later verse 16 as we keep

reading it says go and gather the elders

of Israel together and say to them the

Lord the God of your father's the God of

Abraham of Isaac and Jacob has appeared

to me question why on earth does verse 2

say the angel of the Lord appeared to

him and then down in verse 16 he's told

tell him God appeared to you with the

aims of the Lord appeared to Moses

that's the language and God appeared to

Moses that's I think pretty interesting

in Acts chapter 7 we read about Stephen

as he gives kind of this long history

lesson of Israel to the people who were

stoning him it's he's the first martyr

of the early church and he says this

about Abraham excuse me about the

burning bush passage in verse 30 of Acts

chapter 7 now when forty years had passed

passed

an angel appeared to him in the

wilderness of Mount Sinai in a flame of

fire in a bush when Moses saw it he was

amazed at the sight and as he drew near

to look there came the voice of the Lord

isn't it interesting how even the way he

says it is delicate like Stephens a way

of talking about it's like delicate like

he's trying to let the text speak so he

goes the Angels Lord appeared and he

drew near and he heard the voice of the

Lord maybe you know they're just wanting

to preserve the difficulty that the text

presents us with I think it's kind of interesting

interesting

now if the angel of the Lord is not in

fact God in this burning bush passage

then I don't really know what function

he serves

why is he brought up at all that's

interesting all right

Exodus 23 Exodus chapter 23 remember

that God told Moses that he was going to

be with them I will be with you well in

Exodus 23 verse 20 he says behold I send

an angel before you to guard you on the

way and to bring you to the place that

I've prepared pay careful attention to

him and obey his voice do not rebel

against him for he will not pardon your

transgression for my name is in him my

name is in him that's a pretty profound

thing to say God's name is in him and we

don't think his name means just a title

obviously name means more than that to

God now some people say that this means

the angel has to be God because God

would never share his name with anyone

other than himself and that may be the

case I'm not sure I'd like to have more

clarity on Scripture from that if I'm

going to make that point but I will say

this later on in John 17 6 Jesus shows

up and he says I have manifested your

name he's talking to the Father

I've manifested your name to the people

whom you gave me out of the world yours

they were and you gave them to me and

they've kept your word he says I've

manifested your name Jesus shows up and

tells them I've brought the name of God

to these people and this angel in the

Old Testament

it's said of him that his God's name is

in him and that would marry well with

the concept of who Jesus is

works perfectly fine in Christian

theology and that's probably the biggest

case for it it just works so easily for

this angel of the Lord person to be the

second person of the Trinity to be Jesus

because Jesus could talk in all the ways

the angel of the Lord talks think about

this he could talk about God as though

God is somehow other and he can also

talk about God as though he's God

he could speak on behalf of God as

though he's God cuz he is but he could

also speak of the Father totally as

though he's somehow different than him

and that terminology is laid out here in

the Old Testament hundreds of years

before Jesus shows up I think that

sometimes Christians don't realize how

Old Testament our faith actually is

until we actually get into it so we'll

keep reading here um in Exodus 23 I

share with you that there's that God

says I'm gonna send an angel before you

my name is in him be careful to listen

to what he says well in judges chapter

in judges chapter two it says in verse 1

now the angel of the Lord here here he

shows up again went up from Gilgal to

Vulcan and set and he said I brought you

and let's just get this he's actually

traveling goes on a journey from one

city to another city and he's

proclaiming a message as he goes that's

kind of how you had to give messages

back in the day like if you want

everyone to know something you just have

to walk all over the place saying it

over and over again and that's how he

does this now the angel of the Lord went

up from Gilgal to bow came and said I

brought you up from the land of Egypt

and brought you into the land that I

swore to give your father's weight is

it's the angel of the Lord but he claims

credit for bringing them up out of Egypt

in fact he claims credit for being the

one who swore and made oaths to the

fathers of the people of Israel that

would be God right and it continues I

said I will never break my covenant with

you and you shall make no covenant with

the inhabitants of this land you shall

break down their altars but you've not

obeyed my voice now flash back to Exodus

23 21 where God says pay careful

attention to him and obey his voice the

angel the Lord obey the angels voice and

then here

just chapter 2 verse 2 he says but you

have not obeyed my voice and he's

speaking as though he's God and he's yet

he's the angel what is this you have

done so now I say I will not drive them

out before you but they shall become

thorns in your sides and their goats or

their gods sorry their gods shall be a

snare to you as soon as the angel of the

Lord spoke these words to all the people

of Israel that people lifted up their

voices and wept so that seems to be

pretty consistent it makes a lot of

sense it makes the most sense is the

simplest explanation is that this is

basically a prefiguring of the the

plurality that is in God he's three and

one you know there's there's it's not

just God is that's it you know rather

there's like father-son spirit three

persons one being and so we're getting

this really sort of the groundwork laid

the preparation for this is laid in the

Old Testament more clearly revealed in

the new but it's there now notice this

this this angel of the Lord says I'm the

one that made the covenant with your

fathers I made the oath or the promises

to your father's but Genesis 17 here's

what it says about the oath the promise

and notice who's making the promise when

Abraham was 99 years old the Lord

appeared to Abram and said to him I am

God Almighty walk before me and be

blameless that I may make my covenant

between me and you and may multiply you greatly

greatly

so God appears but here's the

interesting they think God appears

Abraham saw something that represented

God well what I could do by putting all

these texts together is say in Genesis

17 Abraham must have seen the angel of

the Lord because he comes later that

same angel and says I swore to your

father's very interesting so he speaks

as if he is God not just a messenger

and most messengers don't really do this

sort of thing they don't go up and they

you know they'll speak even as if they

are though you're so-and-so says you

need to do this to do it but they don't

like impersonate them and then straight

up say yeah I'm the person I'm me I'm

the I'm the God of Bethel they don't

typically say that sort of thing so

judges chapter 6 let's keep going

did you know there was more

judges chapter 6 verse 11 this is a

really interesting story it's the

beginning of the story of Gideon who

like the book of Judges starts well and

ends poorly unfortunately so Gideon here

in verse 11 of Judges 6 it says now the

angel of the Lord came and sat under the

terebinth tree of Ofra let's just

remember where the angel of the Lord is

he sits down under a tree he's hanging

out under this terror bent the tree

which belonged to joash the obvious

right while his son Gideon was beating

out wheat in the winepress to hide it

from the Midianites at some point in

your in your life you read this passage

and it hits you you don't beat out wheat

in a winepress you do that because you

because there's a walls to a winepress

so you're hiding while you're whacking

the wheat out because the Midianites

would take it so I just think it's a

really interesting observation verse 12

it says and the angel of the Lord

appeared to him and said to him the Lord

is with you o mighty man of Valor and

then continuing on verse 14 remember our

focus is who is this angel and the Lord

turned to him and said go in this might

of yours and save Israel from the hand

of Midian did I not send you this is

interesting so we have the angel of the

Lord shows up like physically visibly

present this is this person and he

speaks to Gideon and then in verse 14

the Lord turned to him and said we

didn't have the appearance of God we

don't know where God is but if we're

gonna say God turns to him that implies

that there was some sort of presence

that was so this could be the angel of

the Lord or it could not be I think it's

open to interpretation verse 15 and he

said to him please Lord how can I save

Israel behold my clan is the weakest in

Manasseh and I am the least in my

father's house and the Lord and it's God

speaking here again the Lord said to him

but I will be with you and you shall

strike the Midianites as one man and he

said to him if now I have found favor in

your eyes then show me a sign that it is

you who speak with me and and now listen

to Gideon's solution on how he's gonna

figure out that this is legit cuz that's

Gideon's thing he's like wait for real

like he says that's his wait for real

way are you sure

wait let's check again like he's he

could have been an accountant you know

like double and triple check everything

and and so he says verse 18 please do

not depart from here until I come to you

and bring out my present and set it

before you now whose Gideon speaking to

when he uses these words he's speaking

to God right speaking to Yahweh and he's

and obviously always present because

he's like stay here at this location I'm

gonna bring a gift and present it before

you I'm gonna actually give it to you

and now we start to go okay is this

angel of the Lord the same as Yahweh and

he said I will stay till you return

verse 19 so Gideon went into his house

and prepared a young goat and unleavened

cakes from an e5 flour the meat he put

in a basket and the broth he put in a

pot he brought them to him to who well

previously it was always God right I

mean it was the angels Lord shows up but

then it's the Lord turn and spoke and

he's talking to God

so they him going backwards would be

talking about God but when you read the

next few words of the verse under the

terebinth tree that's the angel of the

Lord so he brings them to him under the

terebinth and presented them and the

angel of God said to him take the meat

and the unleavened cakes and put them on

this rock and pour the broth over them

and he did so then the angel of the Lord

reached out the tip of the staff that

was in his hand and touched the meat and

the unleavened cakes and fire sprang up

from the rock and consumed the meat and

the unleavened cakes and the angel of

the Lord vanished from his sight poof

gone then Gideon perceived that he was

the angel of Yahweh he's like he's the

angel of the Lord he's like okay this

remember he was doing it as it was like

a test maybe not because he's testing

God with maybe because he's testing

himself like I want to make sure I'm not

wrong I'm not crazy and so he's like whoa

whoa

alas Oh Lord God for now I have seen the

angel of the Lord face to face but the

Lord said him peace be to you do not

fear you shall not die and then we have

at the very end verse 23 God speaks

again how does God speak at this point I

don't know

it doesn't say the names Lord vanished

he couldn't see him anymore doesn't

actually say he was gone but just as he

vanished from his sight so maybe he's

still speaking I don't know

verse 23 doesn't seem to make it clear

but it's interesting to me that Gideon

thought he was gonna die because he's an

Israelite and he knows that when you see

God you die like that's what I remember

a mountain on Sinai he's like don't draw

in here you see me you die Moses I can't

even show you all of all of who I am

like that because you're gonna die

that's that's interesting

so in Gideon's mind he's I think he's

seeing God I think that's what's implied

alright let's let's look at another one

judges chapter 13 and now we read about

Samson's parents Samson not Samsun

that's different Samson's parents in

verse 6 of Judges 13 then the woman came

and told her husband a man of God came

to me and his appearance was like the

appearance of the angel of God very awesome

awesome

I did not ask him where he was from and

he did not tell me his name

but he said to me behold you shall

conceive and bear a son so then drink no

wine or strong drink and eat nothing

unclean for the child shall be a

Nazarite to God from the womb to the day

of his death and that was kind of the

deal with Samson he was supposed to be

set aside for God's purposes and he

liked the book of Judges start swelling

into poorly you get this theme in the

book of Judges ending poorly it's kind

of a warning to us all

then manoa prayed to the Lord and said O

Lord please let the man of God whom you

sent come again to us and teach us what

we are to do with the child who will be

born and God listened to the voice of

Manoah and the angel of God came again

to the woman as she sat in the field but

manoa her husband was not with her okay

so we have this this story so far this

angel of God is just the angel of God

right I wouldn't identify it as being

God it's just it could just be an angel

just because it has the word the in

front of angel doesn't mean it has to be

like a pre-incarnate Jesus right it

could just be an angel but as we read on

in verse 16 it says the angel of the

Lord and here's how we get that the

angel of the Lord the angel of God

they're synonymous they're not separate

beings because they're used of the same

being here

so and the angel of the Lord said to me

Noah if you detain me I will not eat of

your food but if you prepare a burnt

offering then offer it to Yahweh and

that's important because it says here

for manoa did not know that he was the

angel of Yahweh the angel of the Lord it

seems to me that even though they were

Israelites in the times of Judges there

was all sorts of paganism invading into

the Israelite people it may have been

that manoa

wasn't sure what God this being was

representing and so he says if you're

gonna offer it you better offer to

Yahweh like don't don't offer to save

all for that for for example so manoa

said to the angel of the Lord what is

your name so that when your words come

true we may honor you and this is one of

those interesting verses in the Old

Testament he says and the angel of the

Lord said to him why do you ask my name

seeing it is wonderful huh that is I

mean that's just confusing it's what do

you mean by that

why do you ask my name's seeing it is

wonderful wonderful his name is is that

mean his name is wonderful like call me

wonderful or something about the quality

of my name is that it's wonderful well I

know that in Isaiah it tells us that his

name shall be called wonderful speaking

prophetically of Christ wonderful

counselor right mighty God everlasting

father Prince of Peace this is this is

interesting to me so verse 19 so Noah

Noah took the young goat with the grain

offering and offered it on the rock to

the Lord to Yahweh to the one who works

wonders and Manoah and his wife were

watching and when the flame went up

toward heaven from the altar the angel

of the Lord went up in the flame of the

altar now Manoah and his wife were

watching and they fell on their faces to

the ground before we look at that how

they respond to this I think that let's

just say this is really a pre-incarnate

Jesus and he has sins in the sacrifice

in the smoke of the sacrifice and I just

I just thought just his my heart I mean

Christ was

the Lamb of God who takes away the sin

of the world but then in verse 21 it

says the angel of the Lord appeared no

more to manoa and to his wife then

minoan knew that he was the angel of

Yahweh so he's like okay for sure this

was all legit and real kind of like

Gideon it's like God's proved himself

and manoah's said to his wife that was awesome

awesome

I'd love to do that again no no he says

we are going to die we shall surely die

for we have seen God

so manoah's convinced that what he just

saw was in fact God now if this was just

an isolated passage fine but when you

put all these together it seems to be a

clear message that the angel of the Lord

is somehow God yet different than Yahweh

at the same time as being Yahweh now let

me bring in to you one of the most

puzzling New Testament verses John 1:18

after we've covered all this stuff I

feel like now I can bring this in and

you're gonna go Oh John 1:18 Jesus says

no one has ever seen God the only God

who is at the father's side he has made

him known what you've never seen God but

God who's at the father's side speaking

of obviously the father right but God

the son who's at the father's side he's

made him known this is one of the

reasons one of the verses why I would

say this is Jesus in the Old Testament

because he's the one making him known

he's the one proclaiming who God is he

can say you've never seen the father but

I have showed him to you

interesting the tension about how did

all these Old Testament people see God

yet not see God ah who's the angel of

the Lord God yet in another sense not

really interesting stuff so there's

actually other scriptures I'd like to

get into some time but I'm gonna say

that because there's there's sort of

other verses in the Old Testament that

build this case for not too different

Yahweh's but this case for the blurring

of the identity of of God as not only

this monotheistic God but also sometimes

you have Yahweh talking about Yahweh and

these kind of concepts that makes sense

with a Trinitarian Christian

view of things and it's right there but

we'll look more of those at a later time

what I want to do right now is give you

a couple scriptures that in addition to

the ones I just shared give a case for

why this is Jesus why is this Jesus

there's one that I'll admit is a little controversial

controversial

it's Micah 5:2 but I think it's pretty

significant Micah 5:2 you know this one

actually but you O Bethlehem Ephrathah

you who are little too little to be

among the clans of Judah from you shall

come forth for me one who is to be ruler

in Israel who's coming forth is from of

old from ancient days and that phrasing

is really interesting from you Bethlehem

someone's gonna come forth to me and he

will be the ultimate ruler and his

comings forth

oh that's been happening forever that's

been happening going way back in time

he's ultimately will come forth but yet

he's been coming forth that seems to me

to Mary very well with everything that

we've done so far tonight you know that

this angel of the Lord is is the one

who's been coming forth now there's a

debate on the Hebrew word there coming

forth it could also mean origins his

origins are from forever you know that

the idea that he's eternal and so it

could also mean that and that's why I

say that's slightly controversial so if

it means what I'm inclined to think then

that's a really good case for Jesus

being identified anytime you see sort of

a theophany an appearance of God to just

assume it's Jesus because he's been

going forth but there's other reasons as

well john 8:58 john 8:58 jesus said to

them truly truly I say to you before

Abraham was I am

it sees I am statements in John some

people they use them a little recklessly

but they are legitimate I am statements

from Jesus in the book of John and

here's one of the most profound ones

before Abraham was I am I am tell him I

am since you and we get this from

multiple places in scripture that that

God is the I am and Jesus refers to

himself as this guy in fact this is how

God identified it to himself to mow

in the burning bush I am so who was in

the burning bush well before Abraham was

I am I think that's interesting John

20:28 Thomas answered him my Lord and my

God my Lord and my God why is that

significant it's significant because we

just simply have a plain and simple

verification Jesus is God like He is God

from all time for all time

he's God john 14:9 this kind of goes

with the one we showed earlier john 1:18

that where he said no one has ever seen

God the only God who is at the father's

side has made him known well this goes

with that john 14:9 he says jesus said

to him have I been with you so long and

you still do not know me Philip whoever

has seen me has seen the father how can

you say show us the father how can you

say show us the father so there's

another one where we're just getting the

idea that Jesus is the representative

you know he is the one who goes forth to

reveal God to us and he is also God and

that marries perfectly with this but now

there may be a question floating in your

head and here's one of the objections is

your mic you're identifying Jesus as an

angel like ontologically that like in

his in his nature who he is you can't

call him an angel Hebrews makes it very

clear Jesus is not an angel he's greater

than the angels Hebrews 1 and I would

say absolutely but we often use the word

angel a little clumsily

and so the word itself simply means

messenger representative quartiere

or angel like you're thinking of an

angelic being but the word itself is

used 213 times in the Old Testament it's

Malak in the Hebrew and it's used often

times of human people so it's obviously

not speaking of their identity at

speaking of their role their messengers

it's used of humans many many times it's

also translated as messenger not only in

the plural but in the singular

for instance second Samuel 1122

so the messenger the angel the Malak

same word the messenger went and came

and told David all that Joab had sent

him to tell it's just a messenger was he

you know it doesn't have anything to do

with whether he's an angelic being or a

human or anything else is just a

messenger that's the point sometimes the

word is translated angel but refers to

humans perhaps metaphorically like a

Kish calls David an angel of God this

could be a metaphor like oh you're

you're you know you're an angel you know

like we use it kind of metaphorically

saying that they're a great help or

really nice to us or something like that

so that's one of the objections is but

you know you can't use the word angel to

refer to Jesus you're changing who he is

but yet all the work we just did was to

say this angel is clearly Yahweh right

and in a sense not and that is Jesus

right he is God but he's not the father

and that marries perfectly well and it

works with the terminology of angel I

actually one day I'd love to do for my

own sake just more studies into the

concept of angels and different types of

angelic beings we don't have a whole lot

of information in Scripture but we have

more than we probably realized in the

text so one day one day all I'd like to

do that another objection because I do

have time for some objections so this is

good the Jewish principle of agency this

will come up anybody who wants to refute

this usually here's how it goes they're

oftentimes coming from a perspective

where they do not believe Jesus is God

eternal right they don't believe that to

begin with so they of course have to

refute this whole angel of the Lord

thing because it's gonna come and get

thrown in their face

so they will all bring up this concept

shalyah the the Hebrew principle of

agency and it goes like this it's it's

like a legal thing almost and the person

who goes who is sent is as the person

who sent them because they're their

agent so they can speak on their behalf

they can speak like it's them talking

that's the Jewish principle the Jewish

legal emissary or agent that's what that

person is the Shelia performs an act of

legal significance it says for the

benefit of the Synder as opposed to him

or herself it's comparable to the Hebrew

term from the Greek

world apostolos which I got from a

website that was trying to debunk the

angel of the Lord being Jesus so so I'm

trying to get this information from them

so it goes like this a person's agent is

regarded as the person himself and they

would say something like this Mike I

know it may seem like the angel of the

Lord is Yahweh because he speaks in the

first person as though he's Yahweh but

this is just ignorance of the culture

you're just so unaware of Jewish

thinking you're too Gentile minded and

you just don't know that it's the normal

conventions of ancient Jews that the

principle of agency that well-known

concept where an agent is as the one who

sent him that this clearly allows that

person to speak and sound like their God

when they're not God so therefore

they're not God and for an example

they'll go to I think there's only one

passage they would go to and Deuteronomy

I didn't get it in my notes

unfortunately but where Moses he talks

and at one point he shifts and it sounds

like he's talking as though he's got and

it's however it may I point out it's not

nearly as profound or clear as the

statements from the angel of the Lord

that we've already read this may well be

the principle of agency and that's my

response it's unwise to argue that this

principle doesn't exist

that's not wise at all but I feel like

the people who want to use Shelia to say

the the Angels Lord is not Jesus they're

just blowing it way out of proportion it

just seems like totally abusing the

principle the principles like a legal

thing I can I can speak on their behalf

but they don't imitate them that doesn't

mean that they go like imagine if I came

to you and you've got this principle in

your head this Shelia principle in her

head and I just want you to know it's

really me so I show up and I say hey I'm

Mike I'm Mike from Hosanna I'm Mike from

The Sunday night service and you go

probably just Shelia he's just speaking

as though he's Mike but he's not really

Mike and I'll go yeah no I'm the Mike

who made those promises before I'm the

Mike who helped you out and got you

through those problems and I go I get it

I get it Mike sent you you see you just

you just don't bring the principle that

far by throwing the this principle of

which everybody does who disagrees with

the angel of the Lord being Jesus by

throwing this principle up what they've

done is they basically made it

impossible there's nothing the Angels

Lord could say to convince them that

it's actually Yahweh there's just no

words that could be used he's like yeah

it's me I'm Yahweh

oh look we've seen God like no no

shalyah like I can use this thing it's

it's like the the skeleton key to unlock

the door and escape seeing him for who

he is I think that's unfortunate so I

could share more on that but I think

that's the biggest issue it's when we

look at the particulars just go back

over the study in your head yeah this is

not a representative but not merely a

representative obviously is a represent

but not merely is clearly claiming to

also be God and there's very good

contextual reasons to think so I doubt

the show Leah spoke like that I really

doubt it

and I'd have to see specific examples to

think that they did there's another

challenge though and that is when I say

that Jesus came and we read about the

Angels of Lord and he's spoken of in

humanoid terms am I saying Jesus was

physically incarnate before he was

incarnate before he was in flesh before

he came as a human that he came as a

human that's it that's a problem isn't

it I mean that would confuse me a little

bit I'm going hold on when are you

saying Jesus coming as a baby though

that's not it that wasn't the first time

or that wasn't the only time he appeared

in human form let me respond to that

because what we need to know to do now

is look at the differences between Jesus

coming in the Incarnation and these

Christ often ease these appearances of

Jesus in the Old Testament and here's

some of the differences appearing in

some sort of body is not the same as

taking on human nature living a full

human life and dying a human death the

angel of the Lord

for instance the Old Testament

appearances they may not really be truly

human we don't know what they are they

do things humans can't do like they show

up and they disappear in a flame of fire

like you try that like this was there's

something else going on here right

there's not they may not really truly be

human they may just be appearing in this

form for this cause which explains like

the vanishing and things like that the

Old Testament appearance is maybe

perhaps you could say they even are

human but

not involve a human fall in nature

there's no fall in nature so there's no

sin nature that's there there's no

temptations that are there it's not

really our form it's just a form like

ours if if and that's an option although

I'm I'm inclined to not even think that

it's fully human the Old Testament

appearances these is angel of the Lord

appeared says they did not involve human

parentage or birth it's not like the

angel of the Lord jest stated in a womb

came out live the human life and then

showed up was like hey I'm here that

never happened that happened with Jesus

when he shows up in in Mary's womb and

he lives a full human life so there's a

radical difference another issue is the

Old Testament appearances are not a

humbled condescension coming down lowly

the angel Lord shows up and he's pretty

glorious when he comes and they're like

I'm gonna die right people saw Jesus

they didn't think I'm gonna die cuz he

humbled himself lowly and came actually

as a human not just in some sort of

representative you know shape or size

but he came as a human so even though

they may well be appearances of Christ

and I think that they are personally

he's not lowly he's not truly human he's

not represented representative of the

human race he doesn't represent all of

us in those he represents simply God

coming to to communicate and didn't die

didn't get born and didn't live a human

life didn't suffer temptations like it's

completely unlike the Incarnation so

hopefully that answers the question -

say the Incarnation different than a

Christ Stephanie cry Stephanie we're not

even sure if there was blood in those

veins or what we don't know but with

Jesus we know exactly what he was and

who he came as and if somebody after all

this was like Mike I'm still not

convinced like I just don't believe you

the angel of the Lord is Jesus I would

say the worst case scenario is that the

Angels the Lord is not Jesus but still

somehow stands as a prefigurement of

Jesus so that we can get the concepts of

who Jesus would be when he showed up

because you still can't escape it he's

like he's like Yahweh and I'm the angel

of the Lord and yet Yahweh says and yet

I say and there's this this confusion of

persons in a sense that's meant to set

us up so that we can have a better

understanding of the Trinity

a couple questions that might come up is

is is every single instance of the

phrase the angel of the Lord or the

angel of God is every instance

representing a cry Stephanie and I'm not

convinced it is I think you just have to

look at each passage because it's a

generic phrase like the angel of the

Lord could be who's that oh that's the

angel angel food well the angel de lor

like this this could be a generic

terminology as well so I considered

looking at the individual cases I think

it's like 39 times it shows up

altogether and yeah and I think that's I

think that's actually all I wanted to

say about that but what I'll do is I

just realize I'm at the end of my notes

and blink so what I want to do next week

next time we meet is I want to talk

about kind of build on this and talk

about this further concept of there

being sort of what some people like I

said these two powers these two like

Yahweh's one like - mah hear o Israel

the Lord our God the Lord is one and yet

you have things like not just when it

uses the phrase phrase the angel of the

Lord but other instances in the Old

Testament where it draws out this sort

of difference between Yahweh and Yahweh

and you're like what does this mean and

we'll talk more about that next time and

we'll get into the terminology of why

John one uses the phrase the word to

talk about Jesus and when the word of

the Lord came to the people of Israel

what is that about exactly so let's pray

father we thank you for your word amen

to that and we pray that you would you

just continue to guide us and give us

wisdom as we handle these lofty and high

concepts that we see in Scripture may we

do so carefully thoughtfully but Jesus

what we realized as we read this stuff

is you're you're amazing and when you

come humbly and lowly in a manger you

live a human life and you allow people

to spit upon you and curse you you

brought yourself so low so that you

could love us since you could forgive us

so you could redeem us and we're so

grateful that we can come to know you

we're just

or blown away by who you are and we pray

that our minds would continue to just

grow in our appreciation of the identity

of this Jesus in Jesus name Amen [Music]

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YouTube Transcript:Who Is the Angel of the Lord? How to Find Jesus in the Old Testament pt 4