Effective communication is a learnable skill, not an innate talent, built through consistent practice and self-awareness, enabling individuals to connect more deeply and achieve greater personal and professional success.
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You take a deep breath and then continue
speaking. The reason people aren't
comfortable with the pause is because
they don't know what the pause is for.
Right? The pause allows people to
process what you're saying. Think about
it now. Listeners, as you're listening
to that, the moment I
paused, you had a moment to process the
things that I was
saying. Do you want to be more
charismatic? You see, in the world of
communication, there are two fundamental
areas. Didn't that just seem really important?
important?
I was
so bad at interactions with human
beings. There was just a period of my
life where I I didn't understand what
anybody was saying to me. You're saying
that everyone can go from being a shy,
unconfident speaker to being a prolific
speaker like yourself.
Being a confident communicator, that's
just another series of behaviors that
you can practice. So when people say,
"Oh, I'm shy." I always say to them,
"Oh, that's because you've been
practicing the shy behaviors for the
last 15, 20, 30, 40 years.
What are the top three things, the
practical problems that people are
the number one health and wellness
podcast? J Shetty. J Shetty, the one,
the only J Shetty.
What made you commit your life to
helping people find their voice and find
their confidence? I always feel like the
thing we end up doing in life tends to
be something that had a massive impact
on us when we were younger. I don't know
if you find the same to be true, but for
me, man, Jay, when I was young, I I was
such a bad communicator. I was so bad at
interactions with human beings. And the
reason for that is because English is my
third language. So, I grew up first
learning a Chinese dialect called Dio.
And then I learned Vietnamese and then I
learned English. So there was just a
period of my life where I I didn't
understand what anybody was saying to me
and I couldn't communicate with other
people. So I just went through a period
of life where I felt really isolated. I
didn't realize that I was doing it in my
career. But as I learned how to
communicate more effectively, became a
professional speaker, all of this, I
went, "Oh, wow. Now I have this skill
that I can teach other people." So the
moment I just tried teaching it, I felt
fulfillment. And I never really felt
that level of fulfillment before. That's
when I decided, "Oh, wow. It's cool to
do it yourself. It's even cooler to help
other people do it." And then that's
kind of when I went allin with it and
found so much fulfillment. And again,
I'm sure you get this all the time, but
it's the comments, the emails you get
and you're like, "Oh, wow. I I'm doing
something that matters." Yeah. Whereas
before I was a magician, so I did that
for years. And it feels weird to say it
because I don't want to talk down on
what magicians do. Not at all. which is
for me the applause at times when I was
doing magic it felt really empty to me
because I did it for so long and it
started to feel a little bit empty and
then when I started teaching public
speaking and communication skills it
felt full it felt better it felt more
fulfilling from the way you're talking
about it you're saying that everyone can
go from being a shy
insecure unconfident speaker to being a
prolific speaker like yourself yes
because it's all just a series of behaviors
behaviors
Everything you and I are doing right
now, everything you see a great
communicator do on stage, everything you
see a great creator do on video, it's
just a series of behaviors. The way
you're moving your mouth, the way you're
manipulating airflow, the way you're
moving your hands, it's all just
behaviors. So when people say, "Oh, I'm
shy." I always say to them, "Oh, that's
because you've been practicing the shy
behaviors for the last 15, 20, 30, 40
years, being a confident communicator."
That's just another series of behaviors
that you can practice. And if you
practice that for 10, 20, 30, you'd be a
confident communicator, right? So it's
just behaviors that we get attached to
because it becomes a part of our
identity. And then I think when it
becomes a part of our identity, all of a
sudden now we feel like we're stuck, but
you're not. And then there's this really
interesting concept, I don't know if
you've come across it before, where it's
where does your voice come from? Where
do you get your voice from? You you
learn how to communicate based on the
people you were inspired by when you
were young and you just learn behaviors
from them. Like I'm watching my daughter
now, my daughter Melody, she's one and I
can see her watch us and then start to
mimic the things we do. Right. Right. My
my wife the other day met her spaghetti.
She wouldn't eat it. So my wife was
furious. She was so upset. She was like,
"Ah, you're not eating it." And then she
goes, "Ah." She does the exact same
thing. Right. And then my son, he picks
up the way I speak cuz he's seven now. I
notice he has certain nuances that I
have. So again, the voice you currently
have, people think, "Oh, that's my
natural voice." It's like, "No, no, it's
not your natural voice." Yeah. You lost
your natural voice when you were two or
three years old, right? Whereas the
voice you have now, that's your habitual
voice. It's just a series of habits. And
the thing that I find the first most
fascinating is that when the habits move
from your conscious mind and it goes
into your subconscious mind, now you
feel it's a part of you and now you're
stuck with it. But in the beginning of
your life, you have to consciously
think, "Oh, oh, dad speaks really
softly, so I'm going to speak really
softly." But the moment you do that for
2, three years, now it moves into your
subconscious mind. And then you go, "Oh,
no, that's me." No, no, it's it's still
just a series of behaviors, and that's
all that it is. Yeah. I've always loved
that model of unconscious incompetence
to unconscious competence. And for
anyone who doesn't know it, four stages,
right? The four stages. The the bottom
stage is unconscious incompetence. When
you are unconscious of your
incompetence, you have no idea what
you're doing wrong. You probably don't
know that you um are try and fill every
pause, say like at the end of every
sentence, whatever it may be. And we all
have an unconscious incompetence,
especially in the way we speak. And
that's when we have this mindset that
you're saying where we think it's our
voice, but actually it's just practice
behaviors. M and then above from that
which is what I love. This is what you
do so phenomenally well when you're with your
your
audiences conscious incompetence. You're
helping people become aware of how our
body language, our voice, our tonality
affects us. And then above that for
everyone who doesn't know the model is
conscious competence. Correct? where now
you know why you move your hand that way
and why you choose to lower your voice
or lower your pitch or whatever it may
be. And that's kind of a frustrating
part for people to be at stage three
because they go I know it but V I still
have to think about it. So when they do
it, it's really interesting cuz I see my
students do this all the time where they
go, "Hello everybody. It's great to be
here." And then they go, "Vin, this
feels so fake. It feels so phony." But
I'm like, "You have to go through that
stage to get to stage four, which is
unconscious competence, which is
mastery." Yes. And a lot of people
aren't willing to push through that
because they go, "No, it doesn't feel
natural. So that means it's not right."
Let's talk about that. That's a really I
think that's one of the biggest
challenges because I think we're both
sitting here as people who've trained
worked hard at our craft worked hard at
our art. Yeah. And now at this point it
does feel like unconscious competence.
Yeah. But a lot of people say well no
but if you had to learn it then it's
fake. It's unnatural. It's not real.
It's phony. But what's the difference
between developing a skill versus faking
it? Like what's the difference? I love
your definition of home where you say
home is the familiar right and to me the
way you currently communicate you have a
home and that is because those behaviors
you've been repeating for the last 10 20
30 years right so that feels like home
to you whereas what people don't realize
is and I I don't mean to take a long
explanation for I think it's important
when you used to ask me what my home was
when I was young I would say my suburb
so I'd say Ssbury Downs then as I got
older I started explor explore my city,
I I'll say Adelaide is my home, South
Australia, right? And then as I explored
more of my state, then I would say South
Australia is my home. Then I explore
more of Australia, I go, Australia is my
home. Now I've lived in LA and and
Southern California, oh, I kind of feel
like America's my home, too. And then as
I travel more of the world, I go, "Oh,
the world is my home." The same thing
with your communication skills. You have
access to this incredible instrument,
but your home is such a small part of
that instrument. Say a piano has 88
keys, right? Right now, home to you is
five keys because you're only familiar
with those five keys. But as you start
to realize you have access to this
incredible instrument, you start to play
the other keys. Home becomes the entire
piano. Whereas the struggle that people
have is the moment they do something
that they're unfamiliar with. Instead of
labeling it as unfamiliar, they label it
as fake and phony. And what happens the
moment you do that? You stop exploring
your instrument. And now you are limited
to the five keys you've been playing
with your entire life. And I think
there's there's an overattachment to the
familiar which keeps us the same.
Because when you think about this, most
people change the way they dress, they
change their glasses, they change their
house, they change their car, but they
never change the way they talk. They
never change the way they communicate
because we are way too attached to the
familiar. And I say to my students this
all the time, don't be so attached to
who you are in the present, you don't
give the future version of you a chance.
There's a future version of you where
the world is home. There's a future
version of you where you can play all 88
keys. I love that concept of we change
our hair, we change our glasses, change
our clothes, but we don't change the way
we communicate. And I was going to ask
you, when you have so many people coming
to see you speak, what are the top three
things, the practical problems that
people are coming to solve when they
come to you? So when someone comes and
says, "Vin, I need your help." Yeah.
What are they trying to solve in their
life? the top three things that you
hear. First thing would be they want to
get from stage one unconscious
incompetence to like you've made me
aware of one thing. How can I start to
become aware of more things? So again,
self-awareness. So first thing they go
is like how can I become more
self-aware? I've now been I'm awake now
to the problem of my communication. How
can I begin that journey and become more
aware? And when they ask me that
question, then I share with them a very
simple technique. And a very simple
technique that I share with them is
record and review. So the only way to
become more aware is if you see yourself
and most people hate watching themselves
on video. Most people hate listening to
themselves on audio. So that means
they've been going through their entire
life avoiding the two most critical
things you need to develop
self-awareness with your communication.
So and they hate this process. So the
process is record a video of you
speaking for five minutes, right? And
then when you review and reflect on that
video, leave it for a day so you're less
critical of yourself. And once you've
left it for a day, the first time you
grab your phone to review the video, put
it on mute. And then just look at
yourself. And then as you're looking at
yourself, take notes. What am I doing
with my hands? How are my facial
expressions? What am I doing with my
legs? How am I moving? Am I do I have
any visual ticks? So you take a whole
bunch of notes. That's the beginning
process of self-awareness. Then after
that, turn the volume up. Just listen to
yourself. Now turn the phone around.
play. Just listen. And as you're
listening now, listen to the vocal
qualities. What do you like about your
voice? What don't you like? What can you
hear? How's your rate of speech? How's
your volume? What's your melody like? Do
you hear the passion? If you're
passionate about something, you'll take
so many notes when you do this. What are
your filler words, nonwords? Right? You
get all of that down. Then the last step
is get it transcribed. So once you
transcribe it, now you can see the way
you communicate in a completely
different perspective. You might notice
you speak in circles. I repeated the
same thing four times. What am I doing?
Right? And you'll see different things.
If you just go through that process
once, you'll get a list of five to 10
things. Right? That's how you begin your
journey of self-awareness. Yet, people
will resist that because it's too
uncomfortable. They'll record it, but
they won't watch it. But the ones that
do, Jay, I immediately get a DM after
shock. I can't believe I do X. And it's
crazy cuz I I think of one of my
students right now where he said, "For 6
years I've been held back in my career
because my managers and my leaders say
that I lack clarity. I lack authority
and I lack confidence." And he goes,
"And they give me this feedback yet they
don't tell me what I need to improve."
And do you know what I realized through
doing this recording review process? the
one thing that has robbed me of 6 years
of progress is my ing and aaring. I
can't believe ing and aaring has held me
back. And he was so frustrated. And I
remember I had to tell him I look look
that's I I get your frustration but at
least it didn't hold you back for 20
years and you realized it now. But
something simple as ing and aing held
him back for that long and destroyed his
perception of being a great leader. It's
kind of crazy. Yeah. That's what I
wanted to get to is that's the problem.
And I feel someone may see your work and
they'll say, "Well, I don't want to be a
public speaker." That's right. That's
not the point. The point is there's a
promotion that you're not getting
because you don't have authority. Or the
challenge is you're not able to ask out
the person on a date that you really
want to take out on a date. Like you
don't feel that confidence. Or there's
the challenge of you're in a team
meeting and you feel like your voice is
never heard. People always overlook your
opinion. They don't hear you. What are
some of those stories that you've heard
of people that have those types of
challenges that are coming to you
exactly like the one you just told us?
They're like, "Oh, Vin, this is actually
solving a daily issue for me." The big
one, people keep interrupting me. Not
only do they not listen to my ideas,
they interrupt me. And then my turn is
gone now. And the idea that I was going
to share was one that was going to be
able to change the course of the
meeting. But because they interrupted
me, now I'm invisible. And that keeps
happening to me. And then when they ask
me, they go, "Why do other people
interrupt me? Why does it happen?" The
reason is something that I don't think
you'd expect. Because it comes down to
vocal presence and physical presence.
And when I see them in the situations
where people interrupt them, the reason
is because their vocal presence is low
and their physical presence is low. So
for example, everyone's sitting around a
meeting table and and again I go look
send me an example right where you're
doing a big Zoom meeting and you're
allowed to send me this send it to me
let me see what's happening and when you
see it everyone's sitting down and then
the way she would bring up the question
it was a woman who asked me this and I
remember the way she'd ask it is very
low volume so look I've just got a quick
idea I would love to share with you all
very small body language and if I was
talking to you like this right now it is
so easy for you to interrupt this
version of me so easy whereas imagine
instead I take control of this. Stand.
Stand. They go, "Oh, I feel a bit little
bit weird." Well, just prime the reason.
Just go, "Look, I've been sitting all
day. Do you mind if I stand for my part
of the presentation?" "Oh, great. All
right, then you just stand." If you
stand now, all of a sudden, you're in a
position of more authority. And if you
use larger body language, stronger
volume, the version of me right now,
this version is infinitely more
difficult for you to interrupt.
Absolutely. It's infinitely more
difficult because you've got more
authority. You've got more credibility.
But again, because a lot of people in
those situations fall victim to a lower
default volume, a slower default rate of
speech, smaller body language, and then
all of a sudden people interrupt them.
Absolutely. Or talk over them just
completely ignored. So I say I often say
to my students, the reason people
interrupt you is because you're easy to
interrupt. Create a bit of that
friction, right? Create a little bit of
that authority. And then again, they try
it. It feels a little bit, again, they
say fake and phony, but I'm like,
reframe it, reframe it. It's just
unfamiliar. And then they start to do
it. They go, "Oh, it felt really
unfamiliar." V, but the moment they do
it, they go, "Wow." People like just
from standing alone, V, I felt like I
stood. I just had a bit of volume. I
didn't even use my body language, but
already people are not interrupting me.
So again, it just goes to show that how
you use your instrument and your voice
lets other people know how they can
treat you. Yeah, that's such a great
point. It's so true. And I hope everyone
who's listening and watching right now,
I want you to rewind back, right? Go
backwards. the last five minutes.
Everything that Vin said from the point
of self-awareness through to just now
and practice it in your next meeting,
right? Listen to yourself in a meeting.
Even record yourself while you're in a
meeting as you are normally, as you are
right now, and then go listen back to
that and then apply what Vin was saying
because it's so interesting to me how
daily our communication is impacting our
lives. And we think we're not getting
promoted because we're not networking or
we're notically brilliant, technically
great or whatever it may be. Or maybe
you're sitting there going, J, I'm
actually one of the best in the company
when it comes to
XYZ. But now I realize that it's my
ability to coach people, guide people
because I have that influence. I wanted
to ask you, how does an introvert get
the courage to do what you just said?
Because I'm sure there's a lot of people
listening right now, they're introverted
naturally. I mean, do you even believe
in introverts or is that also a practice
behavior? Well, there definitely is a
difference. Obviously, I asked my vocal
teacher the the same thing. I said,
"What's the difference between an
introvert and extrovert?" And she goes,
"The key thing is just how they get
energy. Are you introverted or are you
extroverted?" I mean, I I I know I'm
very extroverted. I get energy from
being around people, but she goes,
"Introverts, they lose energy once
they're around people." So, she goes,
"Look, that's the key difference. Now,
let me ask you a question. A pianist, if
they're an extrovert, would they play
differently to an introvert?" And I had
to think about that for a while because
I thought, "Surely this is a trick
question." And I I said, "Yes." and she
goes, "No, you're an idiot. There's no
difference. You will not be able to tell
who it is an introvert and who is an
extrovert if you listen to a pianist.
Great music is great music. Your voice
is an instrument. Great music is great
music." She goes, "The only difference
is introverts have to be highly
strategic with when they play their
instrument. Extroverts can play their
instrument all day. It's more difficult
for an introvert because you have to be
highly selective when you play your
instrument." It's an excuse that I think
some of my friends who are introverted
used to give and where they say oh
because I'm introvert I'm not going to
play my instrument well at all. And it's
like no no no you still have energy you
just have to use it much more
strategically and you have to be highly
aware of how you can rejuvenate that
energy. Yes, you have to be very
conscious. It's harder for introverts.
It is harder for introverts to
acknowledge that. However, if you've got
great ways to be able to rejuvenate your
energy and you have good menu items,
like good things you can go and snack on
and recreate some of that energy and
rejuvenate, then you still have to learn
how to play your instrument well.
Otherwise, you will become that person
that, and again, the majority of my
students are the person you described.
It's the I'm way smarter than John. I'm
way smarter than Sarah, but why did they
get the promotion? Why didn't I get it?
Well, it's because if you are
technically 10 out of 10, but your
communication skills are a 3 out of 10,
do you think your organization perceives
you to be a 10 out of 10 or a three out
of 10? You are only as good as you can
communicate. So, as you improve your
communication skills, you start to shine
your light more brightly in the world.
Whereas a lot of my students tend to
think, oh, but it's my boss's
responsibility to see the brilliance in
me. No, no, it's not. It's your
responsibility to shine brightly, not
their responsibility. Yeah. So when you
take it upon yourself, things change.
Filler words as well. And so like, do
you know what I mean? We do that because
we don't understand the power of the
pause. Whereas the pause allows people
to process what you're saying. If
there's one thing you do if you listen
to this episode is record a video of
yourself and and you'll thank Jay and I
later because you'll see things that you
didn't realize. You know, the reason we
hate the sound of our voice is because
when we hear ourselves on recording,
that's not what how we sound to
ourselves. And the reason you have a
different sounding voice to yourself is
when you're speaking, the vibrations go
through your bones and your muscles and
then it hits your ears. You know, one
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apu.apus.edu. There's such a need for
ownership and accountability for our
lives. Because like you said, and I've
I've for a long time believed that
someone was going to come and spot my
talent and see it and nurture it and
help me build up. And I realized no one
was coming and that no one could see it
because they were too busy in their own
lives. It's not that they were bad
people or they were bitter or they were
wrong or they were not able to spot
talent. Everyone was busy. People were
just busy in their dayto-day. They don't
have time to spot your skill and your
talent and nurture it. If someone's
listening to this right now and they're
saying, "Vin, I love what you just said.
I'm an introvert. I agree with you.
There are times when I can and can't
perform or can't bring it out. How do I
hold energy? How do I create
energy? If I have a meeting coming up
today, if I'm going to be on a Zoom call
today, what do I do in order to make
sure I'm at my best? Because right now,
I'm going from meeting to meeting to
meeting to meeting, Zoom call to Zoom
call, I'm just exhausted. First thing is
you have to learn how to protect your
energy. For example, yesterday I was I
was doing a couple of different podcasts
while I'm here in LA and I didn't leave
the hotel room. The podcast wasn't until
4:00. I didn't leave the hotel room at
all to the point where my videographer
freaked out and and and just knocked on
my door and said, "Are you okay? Are you
still all right? Are you all right?" I'm
like, "Yeah, I'm conserving my energy."
Yeah, I'm a fairly high energy person.
So, I have to conserve my energy. So,
all morning is again, I didn't talk to
anyone this morning. I had to wait to
talk to you because if you don't
conserve your energy and you just give
it all the time everywhere, then you
won't have any. So, that's number one.
Got to conserve your energy, right? And
then the second thing is have go to I
call them menu items. have some menu
items that you can quickly reach for.
So, one that I love is Wimhof, the
breathing technique, right? The the
guided bubble breath. Two cycles of that
before a meeting. My brain is
oxygenated. My body feels good. I feel
like I just I just feel revitalized. Can
you break the pattern down for us just
in case? Yeah. Okay. So, if people don't
know YouTuber, but it's it's 30 deep
breaths in and out.
So, 30 of that. And then after that, at
the end of the 30th one, you breathe out
and then hold your breath. And you'll be
shocked how long you can hold your
breath for. You'll be shocked. The first
time I did this, I couldn't believe I
could hold it for a minute and a half, 2
minutes. I thought I was going to die. I
thought I was dying. And then at the end
of you holding your breath for a minute
or so, as long as you can. After that,
just take a deep breath in, hold for 15
seconds, and release. And that breathing technique
technique alone
alone
has energized me even when I am doing
Zoom calls at 3:00 a.m. in the morning
cuz I work with some US clients. It just
gets me three cycles of that, two cycles
of that.
Incredible. I was not a believer in that
at all when I first learned. I was like,
"Yeah, surely that's not going to work."
What? Breathing. I do that every day.
Changed my life. Yeah, I agree. My goto
technique to energize myself The next
one to me is a snack, something healthy.
I love blueberries, raspberries with a
little bit of cream. Oh man, a light
meal. I love it. Right. And then
favorite beverage. My go-to is coffee. I
don't know. That's I feel like some
people are going to tell me it's going
to kill me, but I love it. So, have your
own go-to. Yeah. Right. Have your own
goine. A routine. I have a playlist of
videos that crack me up. I I don't know.
Have you seen videos that made you laugh?
laugh?
Save them. Save them because they're
packed. Put you in a great mood. Put you
in a great mood. I'll give one last one
for me is again I've just got so many
things out of my menu items. No, I love
it. I also love orchestral war music.
Okay. So like Han Zimmeresque.
And if you're listening to Interstellar
Han Zimmer while you're doing Wimhof as
you take a sip of coffee. Oh man, I'm
going to try that. Yeah, give that a go.
I'm going to give that a go.
It's an intoxicating mix. I love that.
Yeah, my my routine is a lot more
simple, but but I love No, but you're
right. Everyone needs one. I I went on
my world tour two years ago now. We did
40 cities across 3 to four months around
the world. Got to come to Australia, a
place that I absolutely loved. It was my
first time there. I didn't get to come
to Adelaide. I hope I do next time. I
know. We're offended, by the way. Yeah.
Oh, no. God, please don't be. We we did
Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne. And
honestly, there was something about the
Australian people that stuck with me. I
was telling you this a bit earlier.
There was this banter back which I
loved. I would banter with people on
stage. I' I'd, you know, little quips
and things and they'd come back at it
and I loved it. And the other thing was
everyone was so grateful. Everyone would
just say to me, they'd be like, "Thank
you for coming all this way." And I was
like, "Wait a minute, you came to see my
show. I'm I should be thanking you."
knew and I was I was so grateful that
people turned up in, you know, the
thousands that came out and it was just
amazing. Everyone was so grateful. There
was such a great energy. But the reason
I brought it up is I realized that my
tour schedule was extremely different
from a keynote because a keynote is I
got to do it once and then it's done.
This was every night if not every other
night if not sometimes in Australia. I
did two shows back toback in the same
day on the same day because we we were
at the Sydney Opera House for two days
where we did two shows in one day, one
show the next day. So, three shows
across two days and then went to I think
it was Brisbane or Melbourne that was
last. And so, my tour schedule was
different, but I realized I had to stop
eating at 12. My show was at 8:00 p.m. I
had to stop eating at 12. I'd have a
protein bar around 5 6 p.m. to give me
that little bit of boost of energy. I'd
have a sparkling water because I
preferred that just before I went on and
then I would have to eat. I'd get off
stage at 10, do a meet and greet for two
hours, and then I'd eat at midnight
every day. Now, that's not my normal
schedule at all. Like, that's completely
against my normal schedule. But I had to
find that. And I think that's what's so
interesting about this is that I'm not
So, I sleep at 9:00 9:30 every night.
That's when I'm in bed. So, for me to be
having to eat dinner at midnight is so
abnormal. But I found that there was a
different routine. I also didn't go out
to any noisy places before or after the
show because I had to be on vocal rest.
I knew I'd lose my voice if I went to a
restaurant or whatever. So for three,
four months, I didn't go to a restaurant
while I was out in all these cool
cities. Everyone's like, "Oh, did you go
to this place? Did you?" I was like,
"No, I didn't go to any of those places
because I would have lost my voice and
then I wouldn't been able to perform."
And I think that's the important part of
the craft that there's a dedication and
a surrender to this is what matters and
therefore some of this other stuff is
going to have to fall by the wayside.
And what you just said made me think the
importance of finding what works for
you. Yes. I I feel like people have this
misunderstanding that I should just have
this energy naturally. Yes. Back to your
original question, right? I should just
have it naturally and if I don't have it
naturally, there's something wrong with
me. It's like no you had to not eat for
8 hours to get yourself into the right
state. And I think that fasted state
helps us think more sharp and helps us
be more on point, right? And it takes
work to show up with energy, intention,
and purpose. Mhm. Whereas I think people
have this illusion in their minds, oh,
it should be easy and weak. Yeah. Or
there's something wrong. No, no, no, no,
no. There's a craft to it. Like even
preparing for a Zoom call, some people
go, oh, is that a bit much? But that's
how you show up. Three Zoom calls back
to back like structure it with 15
minutes in between. You have to reset.
Mhm. Even for me, it's doing these
podcasts, traveling overseas, I'm
exhausted. But then again, if I choose
to give this energy, I need to conserve
it. I need to have ways to rejuvenate
it. And I have to go through the
process. And you have to commit to the
craft. You have to commit to that
discipline. Whereas, if you one night
did eat at 6:00 p.m., well, then that
show wouldn't be as great. But you were
dedicated and I think that that is what
people have to really understand is
there are ways to do it but you've got
to take yourself through the process.
Yeah. Absolutely. For someone who's
listening to their voice now, they they
listen to us. They they're like, "V, I'm
going to listen to this." They start
listening back to their voice and they
cringe at their voice because we all
have this strange and by the way, we all
have it. I have and I want to say that
here. I have that too. No one likes
listening to the sound of their own
voice. There's something uncomfortable
about it. First of all, do you know
where that comes from? And then what do
we do about that? When you're listening
back and you just, you know, your whole
body, your face, everything. It's not
just listening is when you look at
yourself on video, too. And there's a
reason for that. The reason we hate the
sound of our voice is because when we
hear ourselves on a recording, that's
not what how we sound to ourselves. The
way you sound to yourself, you have a
deep, rich, barry wide voice, right? And
the reason you have a different sounding
voice to yourself is when you're
speaking, the vibrations go through your
bones and your muscles and then it hits
your ears. The vibrations of the sound
is going through a more dense medium
which creates a lower pitch sound. So
when you hear yourself via an audio
replay, that's going through the
airwaves. So your voice sounds thinner
and higher pitch. So you immediately go,
"No, no, no. I don't I don't sound like
that. I sound like this. I don't sound
like this." And they freak out. So that
difference in the medium in which you're
receiving the sound causes people
immediately to reject because it
actually does sound different. The
reason why people are like looking at
the on video is because it's flipped the
other way. Yeah. They go, "Oh, I don't
look like that." Because you look at
yourself in the mirror every day.
Whereas on camera, it shows the way
other people see you. Whereas when you
look at yourself in the mirror, it's
flipped. So your entire life you've seen
yourself a certain way, right? Unless
your face is perfectly symmetrical,
right? Then you go, "Oh, no, I don't
look like that." So immediately people
go, "I look weird. I sound weird. So the
thing you need to do there is
desensitize it, mate. Just listen to
yourself over and over. Like do you
listen to a podcast now and do you still
freak out about your voice? Not anymore.
Not anymore. Right. Because you're
desensitized. So what happens is the
calibration happens. What you hear in
your head and what you hear on an audio
replay, the calibration starts to just
do this. And then gradually you can't
hear the difference anymore. And then
when you look at yourself enough on
camera and also in the mirror, the
calibration starts to happen. You go,
"Oh, that's me. Oh, that's just me."
Yeah. It's painful, but if you go
through that, you get over it. Yeah.
It's all that discomfort in the
beginning that we all need to go
through. I was we were talking about
this earlier. So, I was really fortunate
because when I was 11 years old, my
parents were so scared that I was so shy
and so insecure that they forced me to
go to public speaking school. And so, my
school had an extracurricular activity
with the London Academy of Music, Drama,
and Arts. For seven years, I had about
three sessions a week of 2 to three
hours each. It was fairly rigorous and
you'd have to take exams and the exams
were pretty rigorous, too. So, every
year you'd go to this exam and you turn
up and the examiner would be in a room
and before you even meet the examiner,
you'd get you could take a book. Yeah.
It could be any book you wanted, but
they were going to pick any page and ask
you to read it in a emotive, dramatic,
and powerful way. Ooh. And so they could
pick any any page out of a book. The
next part of the test was they would
give you a topic 15 minutes before.
You'd be in a library. This is when we
didn't have, you know, Yeah. Exactly.
There probably was the internet, but
there wasn't this. They wanted to keep
you away from all of that. You'd be in a
library and you'd have 15 minutes to
prep a talk about the dangers of smoking
or whatever it was, a topic that they'
picked and you had to structure a talk
out. And the talk had to be 5 minutes
long. And so you had to do that. The
third part of it was you had a prepared
presentation with visual aids. This is
when we still use projector screens and
the slides. Yeah.
And then you were tested on that
including the visual aids that you used.
And I'm sure there were a couple of
other things as well. And then you'd get
graded and it was uncomfortable. We'd be
sitting in a class and remember we're
all like young teenagers at this point.
So, everyone's even more judgmental and
more, you know, and you get into the
class and you're all making these weird
faces to try and warm yourselves up and
they're telling you to enunciate and
pronounce all of the letters differently
and you're doing all these silly things.
Your friends are laughing at you and
it's exactly what you're saying. The
reason I brought it up is that it was
years of discomfort. It was just years
of looking silly, looking stupid,
sounding bad. Yeah. Giving a bad talk,
giving a bad presentation, walking into
a room to then all of a sudden that
discomfort changed to confidence. And I
find that for most of us, especially as
you get older, going through that
discomfort becomes harder. For example,
if me and you, I don't know how old you
are, but I tried to pick up a sport a
couple of years ago in the pandemic. It
was much harder for me to learn a sport
at this age than if I played it in my
teens. So when you're meeting people in
their 20s, 30s, maybe 40s, 50s, and
they're trying to change their
instrument, they're trying to change
their voice, that discomfort is so much
harder than when I started at 11 or
whatever age you started at. How do you
encourage people to sit with that
discomfort, to go through that? Because
it is harder. Such a beautiful insight
that you shared there. The reason it was
easier for you at 11 is because you were
new to a lot of these behaviors
completely. The behaviors haven't been
ingrained in you yet. Whereas when
you're 40 now, and I'm 38. So once I'm
37, so yeah. So So once you're 40 and
you realize this, you've done 40 years
of repeating one behavior, two
behaviors, a series of behaviors over
and over and over and over again. That's
why it becomes harder, right? And all of
a sudden it becomes way more difficult
because now you have to unlearn
something that you've been repeating for
that long. So I think there's really
difficult there. One other point I
wanted to mention what you said there
too is that you said you went through
years of discomfort. A lot of people
have this idea that again it should just
be a quick process. And if I'm
struggling for a period then something's
not right. It's like no no no struggle
that's good. That it means you're in the
process of change right? You're going
through the process of change and you
have to be willing to put in that
effort. go through the struggle and I
think the thing that people are
resistant to is failing because I I
believe and I want to ask you this
question. Did you learn more from your
successes in those situations in those
public speaking exams or did you learn
more from your failures? Failures.
People don't want to fail now. I don't
want to make a video put it out on
Instagram where I've made a fool out of
myself. But that's how we learn, right?
I don't want to do a speech where I I
forget what I'm going to say. But that's
how you learn. You have it happen. Then
you go back and you go, "Okay, why did I
forget? Oh, it wasn't well rehearsed.
Right? Why did I forget? I didn't know
how to deal with my nerves. Now you need
to learn how to rehearse. Now you need
to learn how to manage your nerves. So
all of a sudden, if you don't fail, you
don't know where your weakness is. And
then you don't know what to work on. So
you got to pay the price. I think I
think you've got to pay the price. Back
to your original question. No, that's a
great I am so glad you brought that up.
Yeah, just so important because I think
people just now are resistant to failing
yet we learn far more from our failures
than we do from our successes. For sure.
So, for the person who's
40, oh my god, Vin, how do I now? How do
what do I do? Am I doomed? No, no,
you're not. It's just when Jay was 11,
he was able to work on three or four
different behaviors at the same time
because you're so elastic, right?
There's so many things that could change
about you when you're at that age. But
when you're less elastic in your older
years, you just now have to focus on one
thing at a time. So, I've coached a few
CEOs of some pretty big companies here
in the US. And it's so funny because
when I map out their I used to do I
don't do it anymore, but when I did it
and I mapped out their their coaching
program and I showed it to them, they
got upset cuz they're like, "Wait,
you're making me work on my volume for 4
weeks and that's all we're doing?" This
feels stupid. And and in those moments,
I just had the courage to go, "Well,
look, you then pick somebody else. It's
okay. Get a refund. Pick somebody else."
Because I kind of said to them, you're
50 and you've been speaking with a very
default quiet volume for 50 years. Do
you expect to be able to change that in
48 hours? Because every cuz I get them
to send me a video every day, right? And
when they every time they send me a
video, I go, "Watch what you're doing
for the first seven days." Even though
you know we're working on volume, your
default volume is like a 4 out of 10.
And that's when they go, "Oh, far out. I
keep defaulting back to it." So the
older you are, you've got to realize one
thing at a time. One thing at a time. It
but it drives people crazy. I want to do
seven things. I want to do hand
gestures. I want to learn how to storyt
tell. I want to use volume. I want to
add pitch and melody. I want to do all
of it. But that's also what leads to no
change. That's why most people never
change the way they sound because
they're not willing to sit and be
patient and do one thing at a time.
Yeah. A good example is thinking about
it like driving. Yes. How many bad
driving habits have we picked up in the
last 20 years because we haven't been
tested? We haven't reviewed it. Scary,
right? And I had to I recently had to
redo my uh driving test because of
moving here and, you know, getting a
state ID and all that kind of stuff. And
I realized just how many bad habits you
pick up. Now I've believed myself to be
a safe driver and a good driver and a
responsible driver. But still the fact
that for 20 years no one's watched me
and checked on me driving. You lose
that. And so that's 20 years of driving
which is something we do every day which
is similar to speaking. You're doing it
every day but no one's doing what you
you're not right. You're not recording
yourself driving and sending it to
someone. You just made me think of
something when you said driving as well.
I mean, when you think back to the four
stages of learning we talked about
before and you talk about unconscious
competence to give people a sense of
what's possible once you really go down
the path of mastery of communication
skills. Think of an area in your life
where you have achieved unconscious
competence. It's driving. Mhm. Whether
we're good or not, that's another thing,
right? But but most people, I would dare
say sometimes too, you're kind of
unconscious when you're driving because
you you're so good at it. You've done it
every single day of your adult life. So
you've gotten to a point where you are
unconsciously competent, right? And then
people always ask me now, they go, "Oh,
when you communicate now, are you
thinking about gesturing? Are you
thinking about storytelling? Are you
thinking about I go, "No, I I don't."
Because like with the car, when you
think you want to go to the grocery
store, do you have any thought now into,
"Oh, I need to open the door. Oh, I need
to check my blind spot. Oh, I need to
adjust my No, it's all automatic." So
the reason why I try to inspire my
students to improve their communication
skills because I I say to them that
means in the very next conversation you
have with a client, a customer, a family
member, you can just think I want this
outcome. I want to be able to help them
in this way. Your skills and abilities
will just take you there. Mhm. And
that's why you come across in these
podcasts and the professional people who
do this, it's so natural. And when
people are sitting there going, I want
to be that natural, but it requires a
dedication to mastery. Yeah. And that's
the point that I really want people to
get. I remember sitting and watching one
of my favorite comedians who became a
friend and he was just brilliant. Like
he would have the audience laughing and
in raptures like in the palm of his
hand, right? And but everything looked
and felt completely off the cuff. So
he'd literally just turn up on stage. It
wasn't like he wasn't in the flow.
Sometimes you watch a comedian and you
can tell there's an arc and you can tell
there's a story and you can tell it's
planned. Yeah. This guy would literally
come up. He'd be like, "Hey, does anyone
has anyone read any books lately?" And
like someone would name a book. He'd be
like, "Oh yeah, I read that page." And
he make a joke out of it. And then
someone else and he'd be like, "Oh,
what's your favorite song right now?"
And it's all a conversation. Brings out
a song. Oh yeah, I can't believe he said
that lyric. Makes a joke about the
lyric. And it was unbelievable to watch.
And I spoke to him afterwards and I said
to him, I said, "Who did you learn that
from? like where did that come from? He
said, I've practiced it so much that it
looks spontaneous, but it's completely
trained. And I think that's what
everyone wants. Everyone wants for it to
look spontaneous. But that took years of
discomfort, courage, failure, training,
mastery. When I'm telling a story or
hosting a podcast, I'm not trying to
sound like anything because your voice
has for so many years become that way.
And I'm at a point in my career for
sure. I was asked to give I just gave
three keynotes in the Middle East in
January and in
Dubai and I said to myself, I'm going to
walk into these and just channel. Like I
just want to go in there and just be I'm
not going to I'm going to have some
notes. I know what I need to talk about.
I know the the title of the talk, but
I'm just going to be and I had so much
fun there. I I had so much fun and it
seemed like the feedback was great from
the audience, whatever, but it was just
so much fun for me because I was like I
just want to feed off the energy in the
room and they were all and my friend my
one of my best friends he came with me
and he was like JJ every talk was
different. He goes at the 1 billion
summit you were hilarious like it was
like watching a comedian and then he
goes at Mind Valley it was really deep
and like you know philosophical and then
at the other place the corporate event
it was very professional. He was like
there were three talks in three days and
they were all completely different. I
was like because I was just feeling the
energy of the room and I love that. Walk
me through how many hours, how much
time, how many years have you seen
people take to get to a point where they
feel that sense of unconscious
competence not of not of mastery because
that can take many years but of a sense
of comfortability where it's flowing and
they don't feel phony and contrived
anymore. Where what have you seen? It
depends on your What have you seen? I I
I've seen unbelievable change within 6
months and this is someone who has
become problem aware that this thing has
been destroying my relationships,
destroying my career growth. And when
that pain becomes that great and you
become problem aware, I can't believe
how quickly some of my students have
been able to change. And then I've seen
it take as long as three or four years.
And where I still Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
where I'll get an email 3 to 4 years
later and they go, I can't believe it's
taken me this long to email you. I
almost feel a little bit ashamed. I'm
like, no. No, because it took me 10. So,
that's amazing. That's incredible,
right? Because it ranges so much
depending on the intensity of the pain
they feel and and the realizations they
have. Mhm. I have to bring it back to
what you said before because what you
said before about you going to three
events and just going with the flow, I
know the people listening to this right
now while you were saying that they were
clenching their butt cheeks because they
were like, "Ah, that's so that's so
freaky." And I wanted to speak to that
because what you just described to me is
one of the
ultimate benefits of mastery in this
arena and it's freedom. You were
free in each one of those speeches. You
were free to go where the audience
wanted to go. That's one of the things I
I I rarely ever get to even talk about
because I don't get to speak to others
usually who who are so proficient at
this skill set. That's ultimate freedom,
Jay. When you feel something, you think
something, and you're immediately in the
moment able to articulate it with
clarity and make people laugh at the
same time. That is so powerful, man. I'm
getting shivers just you saying it. It's
like goosebumps. And to know you're
going into that, being able to do that,
like again, it's achievable for you
listening to this, too. What I love
about it is that there was so much
discovery for me on that stage.
And that's what I do it for. I don't do
it to show off or or be like, "Oh, look,
I don't need to prepare or be lazy or
not respect my client." I do it for
discovery. And what I mean by that is
when I don't plan to that 100%. I now
have the opportunity to find and
discover in the moment. So there were so
many things that I said in those three
keynotes that I've never said in my life
and that's where I get joy. Yeah. You
create and I said that first because I
wanted to take it back and say my first
experience of public speaking. I want to
ask you about yours. I was around seven
years old. Yeah.
And my mom always wanted to me to be on
stage and do things like that and I
didn't. And so it was a religious
assembly and I was dressed as people
from my culture and I was asked to go
and sing and speak on this prayer in
front of my class. Now I grew up in
London. I grew up in an area where there
weren't loads of Indian people like me. I'm
a
me the part and it it didn't help. Okay.
And then I'm on stage in front of all my
friends. I'm seven, eight years old,
something like that. And I stand up
there with this prayer that I'm not that
wellversed in or practiced. And I start
singing it. I have a terrible singing
voice. And that's not humble. There's a
difference between a speaking voice and
a singing voice. I can't I can't sing to
save my life. And I start singing and
the whole audience starts laughing
immediately. Like just like literally
all my friends are rolling on the floor
laughing. And now I'm starting to cry
cuz I felt really embarrassed. And I
look down because I forgot the words.
And now I can't see the words because my
tears have blurred the words in my
paper. So I've lost the notes. So I also
don't know the words. And then to make
it even worse than that, my teacher
walks on stage. She puts her arm around
me and walks me off, which is the most
embarrassing thing in the world. And so
I go from that at 8 years old. And this
is why I love what you're doing for the
world because you're showing and proving
you can build this skill. It is a
muscle. And that was my first experience
of public speaking. A few years after
that, after all the training as well, I
was probably speaking to rooms of zero
to five people and pouring my heart out
into just five people. And even now when
I look back, I loved it because I just
got to be so proficient and practiced.
And so when someone's saying, "Oh, do I
have to do this for four weeks?" Or,
"Wait, only five people are showing up
or whatever those things are." Those are
actually really, really beautiful
moments. I wanted to ask you, what was
your first time public speaking? That
was the first ever experience on stage.
Have you recovered from that experience?
I have now. I have now. But even though
I started getting trained when I was 11,
I probably didn't get half decent until
I was like 17 or 18. Like that's why
when you said you can get people then 3
to four years. I'm like that's pretty
good because if I started 11, I probably
got half decent at 16 to 18. I wasn't
good when I was like 12, 13, 14. All
those years were just, you know, it's
such a common story among many of the
students that I coach. there usually is
some kind of event when they were
younger that has led them to believe
that I'm terrible at this thing because
there wasn't the right support they you
were thrown into that you you didn't
even practice you would even you didn't
even learn the words right so so again
like you you were set up to almost fail
when a lot of the oral presentations
that we do when we're young that's what
they're called right oh you got to do a
presentation we're set up to fail
when you're 11 and you have to do this
presentation in front of your class do
they teach you how to use your hands? Do
they teach you where to put your notes?
Do they teach you how to summarize notes
and not write the whole damn thing on Q
cards? No. They're setting you up to
fail. So, this is such a common story
because our school system the entire
year has one day where we have to go on
in front of the class do and guess what?
What? Guess what happens that day? I'm
sick, mom. I can't go to school. I'm
sorry. And then you say then you miss
the one day you have training. And then
if you do the training, you're all set
up to fail. You're all set up to So,
every person has a version of this. My
version of this is a little more
dramatic because I was older. I was in
university and we had to do a
presentation for accounting and I was so
nervous. I remember going to the toilet
10 12 times. So nervous. And then I got
up on stage and I had a sniffle. So I
kept I kept touching my nose. I had a
sniffle and then I got a blood nose. And
then and I didn't realize I had a blood
nose cuz I thought it was I thought it
was I was just I thought it was just
booger. So I didn't know. So I I wiped
it. Blood comes across my face. I don't
know I have blood on my face while
you're speaking. While I'm speaking, I
didn't know it was blood, right? And
then I obviously a blood vessel went. I
was so nervous. Everything was going and
then I didn't realize it was blood and I
was still talking and then people
started laughing and then I tasted blood
and the moment I tasted blood, I looked
on my hands, there was blood everywhere.
I start freaking out. I didn't know what
to do. The teachers didn't even know
what to do either. Do you know what I
had to do? I finished the talk and it
was well it was only a fiveminute
presentation but I finished it because I
didn't know what to do and I panicked
and it was just the worst presentation
I'd ever given from that point I just
thought yep you know what I'm going to
avoid this at all costs I'm never going
to do it ever again this is the worst
experience of my life yeah just and I
walked off it just yeah I'm glad there
were no videos back then and no photos there's
there's
no that's so traumatic well that is
traumatic man to actually bleed to be
that nervous, to be that stressed. Yeah.
That's how stressed I was. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. To experience that, that's I love
that. That's where you started. And now
if someone watch like when I watch your
videos, I'm like, "This guy's a genius."
And and it's one of the things I was
thinking about as we're doing this and
I'm really trying to put myself in your
audience's shoes, my audience's shoes,
the community that struggles with this.
One thing that I've definitely seen as
I've traveled and we both have
international audiences is this fear
that people have around their accents
and that can often make people quite
unconfident. Yeah. And it's really
interesting because obviously when I
moved to the States, people really enjoy
listening to a British accent in the
States, but where I was growing up in
London, to me the smartest people
sounded American accents, professors,
Harvard, Princeton, Stanford. when you
heard these professors do TED talks or
whatever it was, it was always in an
American accent. And it's almost like in
England, we grew up on American rap
music, you grow up to such a culture
that our feelings are skewed towards
certain accents. And so if you're from a
country where you feel or or a state or
anywhere, even in the United States, you
may feel like your accent isn't
wellreceived. How does how does someone
deal with that kind of pressure? I just
believe accents are really a problem.
It's it's really the articulation and
the pronunciation that lets people down
because I I I just feel that accents are
beautiful. I've got students from all
over the world, Jay, and I love I love
listening to the accent because it tells
a story. It tells me who you are. Where
it lets you down is like when I first
came to the US, I didn't realize I had
so much Australian slang. And
Australians use like we shorten all of
our words. He's like, "Yeah, man. I want
to. Yeah, maybe I won't." You know?
Yeah. All right. Like it's just I didn't
realize I was doing so much of that. And
people go, "Oh, Australian accent is
awesome." Yeah. If I if I talk for a
sec, you won't even understand what I'm
saying if I don't articulate and
pronounce my words correctly. Yeah. So I
I really believe that and I have this
happen all the time in my inerson
classes where someone will come and ask
that very question and they'll have a
Polish accent or or maybe they'll have
an Indian accent and then the moment I
just get them to overarticulate and
practice all of a sudden it completely
changes how they sound and and here's
where it happens Jay it's because for me
for example right I learned the
Vietnamese language so I learned a set
of Vietnamese mouth movements my big
mistake was when I learned English I
used the same set of mouth movements in
the Vietnamese language to go speak the
English language. Fascinating, right? So
then all of a sudden now when I speak
English, my accent wasn't the problem.
The problem was I wasn't articulating
correctly. So people didn't understand
me. I used to not pronounce my T's.
British people are good with this, but
Australians and even Asians, I I didn't
do it. So I would say things like I
can't I wouldn't pronounce I can't I
wouldn't pronounce that. And then my my
T's I would say free. Oh, can I have
three of those instead of three of
those? Yeah. And then what people were
associating with low levels of
intelligence was not so much my accent,
but it was just because I didn't
articulate my words well.
And this can happen in any culture. This
can happen in any with any accent. I've
heard people with Chinese accents,
Indian accents, Polish accents, Russian
accents, but when they articulate their
words beautifully, oh man, it's it's
like you get to listen to a different
genre of music. Otherwise, imagine
everyone sounded like us. Yeah. There's
no flavor. There's no personality.
Personality. Again, I do not believe
accents are a problem. I believe the
problem lies in your ability to
articulate and your pronunciation. And
here's a quick activity that you can do
to help. Yeah, go for it. One of the
greatest things I learned that my speech
pathologist made me do was first of all,
grab a book and every single day you
grab a book for 5 minutes, four times a
day if you want to take it real
seriously. Every time for 5 minutes,
read the book and overdo your lip
movements. Overdo the tongue movements.
And then if you want to take it to the
next level, put a pen in your mouth.
Because if you put a pen in your mouth,
you're forced to overart articulate and
do it out loud. And by doing this,
you'll start to learn and record
yourself while you're doing it, too.
You'll start to learn, oh wow, I
struggle with this sound, this
consonant, this vowel. And as you start
to bring a little bit of awareness to
it, you go, all right, I need to change
the way I'm shaping my lips. I need to
change the way. And just going through
that process alone, I remember doing
that for 3 months. Wow. And I had to do
that when I came here to the US because
I slurred my words a lot. And in
Australia, you fully understand me, Far,
right? Yeah. There's no dramas with
that, eh? But over here, all of a
sudden, I was speaking in Texas and I
still remember speaking in Texas for the
first time. But it was so sweet. They're
like, "I love the guy, but I I ain't got
no idea what he's saying, right?" And it
was like this weird thing where and then
I literally had to go see a speech
pathologist even later in my life
because in Australia it wasn't a
problem. And I didn't realize it too,
but when I slurred my words that much,
it made people think I wasn't smart.
Right. Right. And this is why people in
the world think the British are so
smart. I Is it just the accent or is it
because they articulate extremely well?
Right. Right. So you can sound smart in
any culture, in any with any accent.
Should we get a couple of pens?
Can you pass Can you pass us a couple of
pens? Okay. Just just so that people
realize see what it is. Yeah. And that
we also need to do these like I'm I'm
I'm probably going to contact you
straight after this and go, Vin, I'm I'm
not kidding you. I mean this. Thank you
so much. What type of pen? Does it
matter? Oh, it doesn't matter. It
doesn't matter. It could be a Sharpie.
Yeah. Yeah. I think the pen, the more
challenging it is. That one I think I've
already chewed off. Let's not give you
one that I've already There we go. This
one does not have black marks. No, no,
no. Exactly. Look, you can see what I've
done with this. Wait one second. We'll
do this for a segment. Yeah. But what I
was saying, as soon as we finish this
podcast, I'm probably going to message
you and say, "Vin, can you
please I'm going to send you a speech
and and ask you to help me get better?"
Because I think the mistake is also that
you get there and then you don't need
these techniques or that you don't need
to improve and that you don't need to
work on it. Practice anymore. I think
about it all the time. So anyway, let's
let's Yeah. Yeah. Can you see how
difficult this is? Very difficult. Yeah.
all of a sudden, right? And I want
people to think about this. Who can you
understand better right now? I'm not
sure. You got to give me more than that,
Jay. Okay. So, Vin, how are you today?
Feeling a little bit jetlagged. Okay.
Because I came all the way from
Australia. Yeah. I just got back from
Mexico yesterday. Oh, that's great. And
I went to a friend's wedding and we had
a really good time. Oh, that's
beautiful. I'm really happy for him. Oh,
so happy for you.
It's in doing these things that you
start all of a sudden now that I now
when I speak, I feel like, oh, I'm so
sharp. Totally. I can feel it too. Even
just from a few moments because you're
forced to stretch your mouth so much
bigger to make the shapes to be able to
create the sounds. Whereas the biggest
problem, and again, this happens in the
English language. When you think about
the European languages, the Asian
languages, we actually don't have to
drop our jaw a lot to speak those
languages. Interesting. Because when I
speak Vietnamese, you know, I can do a
closed. I barely have to move my jaw.
English is one of the very few languages
where where when you think about
consciously how you're speaking, you
have to drop your jaw so much to speak
the English language. Well, whereas
again the Asian cultures, European
languages, you don't have to. Yes.
Again, each language has a different set
of mouth movements. So, by doing that
simply alone, you felt it straight away
because you had to move your jaw so
much. Totally. I can actually feel like
we've worked out. Like that's what it
feels like. And that we did it for 30
seconds. Absolutely. And you can keep
that pen. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I
didn't think you wanted it back.
I genuinely feel the difference from
such a short period of time and I could
tell if I did it for longer, it would
make a even bigger difference. Imagine
you did that for 5 minutes and you
started dedicating yourself to that. My
goodness, within a week, yes, you'll
notice your mouth moving differently and
you'll notice yourself sounding more
clear. I accents are not a problem. You
got to you got to stop thinking that.
People always go, "Oh, I hate my
accent." That tells a story. It's your
culture. It's your history. It's what
makes you unique. And I always love to
think of it as it's different genres of
music. Yeah. Yes. And that's what we're
seeing in music in the world right now
anyway. you're seeing languages pour in
through different artists and people and
it's such a need for that. I wanted to
ask you something because this was a big
evolution point for me. So from 11 to 18
I went to public speaking school. I got
the tools is how I like to see it. But
it was only when I met the monks and I
started to learn about Eastern wisdom
and philosophy that I felt I had
something to talk about. And I wanted to
ask you how much you weight the balance
between what you have to say and how you
say it. Both equally important. I I see
some books where I read where they go no
what you say is more important and then
some books say no how you say isn't more
important. And I think they they kind of
have to do that sometimes because they
are an expert in one particular arena.
But again I believe the answer is not
which one it's both. Both just as
critical. Same with me. I think until I
found the purpose and the fulfillment
from teaching public speaking, I didn't
really have much to talk about, right? I
didn't. And until I found that, then all
of a sudden, I started creating content.
Then the content started to take off.
And I think it's because I love how you've positioned what you do here. It's
you've positioned what you do here. It's on purpose. When I found that purpose
on purpose. When I found that purpose and I had the tools and I was able to
and I had the tools and I was able to use my instrument that all of a sudden
use my instrument that all of a sudden the world resonated with that. Yes.
the world resonated with that. Yes. Whereas before I did make YouTube videos
Whereas before I did make YouTube videos back in 2008, 2009 just for fun, but
back in 2008, 2009 just for fun, but they didn't really go anywhere because
they didn't really go anywhere because even though I had decent access to my
even though I had decent access to my instrument, it just didn't go anywhere
instrument, it just didn't go anywhere because I wasn't aligned. I you could
because I wasn't aligned. I you could hear it. It wasn't It wasn't on purpose.
hear it. It wasn't It wasn't on purpose. Yeah. No, I'm glad I'm glad I brought
Yeah. No, I'm glad I'm glad I brought that up because I think a lot of
that up because I think a lot of people are are struggling with either
people are are struggling with either or. Like someone may come to you, they
or. Like someone may come to you, they may learn all the tools, but then
may learn all the tools, but then they're going to have to find what they
they're going to have to find what they use it for. And like you said, there may
use it for. And like you said, there may be someone else who actually has lots of
be someone else who actually has lots of knowledge. Yeah, but then they don't
knowledge. Yeah, but then they don't have the share wisdom or the insight and
have the share wisdom or the insight and that's generally the student that
that's generally the student that somehow discovers me. Right? It's the
somehow discovers me. Right? It's the one that is I have something to share
one that is I have something to share with the world. Right? But some reason
with the world. Right? But some reason every time I share it, people
every time I share it, people misunderstand me. Every time I share it,
misunderstand me. Every time I share it, it doesn't get the impact that I desire.
it doesn't get the impact that I desire. And and it's the truth because you have
And and it's the truth because you have you could have the greatest piece of
you could have the greatest piece of music written by Beethoven. But if you
music written by Beethoven. But if you play it poorly, is it the greatest
play it poorly, is it the greatest music? And again, it's so interesting
music? And again, it's so interesting because I understand my students so
because I understand my students so intimately now where I know what they'll
intimately now where I know what they'll say. They say things in their life like
say. They say things in their life like they go, I'm just going to let my work
they go, I'm just going to let my work speak for herself. Why? Why not speak
speak for herself. Why? Why not speak for your work, too? Right? Well, why
for your work, too? Right? Well, why can't we do both? Why why are we so
can't we do both? Why why are we so linear? Why can't we do both? So good.
linear? Why can't we do both? So good. Right. And when they realize that, they
Right. And when they realize that, they go, "Oh, okay." Right. It opens their
go, "Oh, okay." Right. It opens their mind to the whole idea of I kind of have
mind to the whole idea of I kind of have to take responsibility to shine my
to take responsibility to shine my light. I can't wait for someone again.
light. I can't wait for someone again. And I remember we have a mutual friend,
And I remember we have a mutual friend, Mel Robbins, right? Mel helped him in my
Mel Robbins, right? Mel helped him in my speaking career. At the start of my
speaking career. At the start of my speaking career, Mel used to flick me
speaking career, Mel used to flick me the gigs. I couldn't afford her. And and
the gigs. I couldn't afford her. And and I became the cheap Mel Robbins for a
I became the cheap Mel Robbins for a period. So, so I was the cheap Mel
period. So, so I was the cheap Mel Robbins and she was she was amazing and
Robbins and she was she was amazing and so gracious where cuz she she couldn't
so gracious where cuz she she couldn't do those gigs but maybe she was busy as
do those gigs but maybe she was busy as well and she flicked them to me. That's
well and she flicked them to me. That's how she started my career here in the
how she started my career here in the US. That's awesome. I didn't know that.
US. That's awesome. I didn't know that. And and she was one of the people that
And and she was one of the people that that I saw from her content as well
that I saw from her content as well early on where she said, "No one's
early on where she said, "No one's coming to help you." Mhm. No one's
coming to help you." Mhm. No one's coming to save you. That that's when it
coming to save you. That that's when it really hit home for me, too. I went,
really hit home for me, too. I went, "Okay, I'm going to have to go do this
"Okay, I'm going to have to go do this myself." Right. And and you take
myself." Right. And and you take ownership for that. And yeah, because
ownership for that. And yeah, because when you take ownership, you step into
when you take ownership, you step into your power. When you blame others, you
your power. When you blame others, you kind of lose all of it. Yeah. What about
kind of lose all of it. Yeah. What about someone who comes to you and says, "I
someone who comes to you and says, "I talk too fast." How do you teach people
talk too fast." How do you teach people to slow down? Because I think that we're
to slow down? Because I think that we're all scared of pauses, right? Everyone's
all scared of pauses, right? Everyone's always trying to fill the gaps, even if
always trying to fill the gaps, even if you're in a conversation with someone.
you're in a conversation with someone. We don't like pauses. I've for years had
We don't like pauses. I've for years had to practice the ability to say it's okay
to practice the ability to say it's okay if I need to look away, if I need to
if I need to look away, if I need to think, if I need to reflect, if I
think, if I need to reflect, if I actually just need to take something in,
actually just need to take something in, whether I'm on a podcast, on stage, or
whether I'm on a podcast, on stage, or in a private meeting. How do we get
in a private meeting. How do we get comfortable with slowing down and
comfortable with slowing down and pausing rather than trying to fill all
pausing rather than trying to fill all the space because that's such a natural
the space because that's such a natural thing to do. The first thing I would say
thing to do. The first thing I would say if you speak really fast, well done for
if you speak really fast, well done for being aware that you do. Most people are
being aware that you do. Most people are not aware of it is a lot of it is to do
not aware of it is a lot of it is to do with your mindset and the state of mind
with your mindset and the state of mind that you're in. When do you think people
that you're in. When do you think people speak really fast when they're feeling
speak really fast when they're feeling what? When they're nervous, anxious,
what? When they're nervous, anxious, etc. Right? So, you've got to you kind
etc. Right? So, you've got to you kind of kind of have to address it at the
of kind of have to address it at the core there. So, what you need to do is
core there. So, what you need to do is you have to identify when are you
you have to identify when are you speaking fast? In which situations are
speaking fast? In which situations are you speaking fast? Oh, it's when I'm in
you speaking fast? Oh, it's when I'm in a job interview. Oh, it's when I'm going
a job interview. Oh, it's when I'm going in for my quarterly review. Well, great.
in for my quarterly review. Well, great. Now, you know, in these isolated
Now, you know, in these isolated situations, the triggers are high
situations, the triggers are high pressure situations. Okay, cool. That
pressure situations. Okay, cool. That means before you go into those
means before you go into those situations, you need to still your mind
situations, you need to still your mind and your body. Again, it comes back to
and your body. Again, it comes back to breathing, right? I I I couldn't believe
breathing, right? I I I couldn't believe it, but there were workshops that I was
it, but there were workshops that I was invited to and I did some of them. It
invited to and I did some of them. It was I couldn't believe we could spend 3
was I couldn't believe we could spend 3 to 4 days on breathing. And then I found
to 4 days on breathing. And then I found out there was a 7-day workshop on
out there was a 7-day workshop on breathing. I went 7 days. There's so
breathing. I went 7 days. There's so much profound wisdom in the breath. Mhm.
much profound wisdom in the breath. Mhm. And I I did not understand it until I
And I I did not understand it until I started learning more about it. So
started learning more about it. So again, breathing before you go in, go
again, breathing before you go in, go with the Wimhof breathing. And that will
with the Wimhof breathing. And that will slow down your mind and slow down your
slow down your mind and slow down your your body and then all of a sudden it
your body and then all of a sudden it slows down your speech. The next thing
slows down your speech. The next thing is adrenaline also causes you to speed
is adrenaline also causes you to speed and speak really quickly. So before you
and speak really quickly. So before you go into a a presentation or something
go into a a presentation or something that's making you nervous, get rid of
that's making you nervous, get rid of the adrenaline. Some brisk walking, do a
the adrenaline. Some brisk walking, do a couple of push-ups, do some star jumps.
couple of push-ups, do some star jumps. I know you call them jumping jacks here
I know you call them jumping jacks here in the US. Yeah, mate. It's not called a
in the US. Yeah, mate. It's not called a jumping jack. It's a star jump, mate. So
jumping jack. It's a star jump, mate. So do we call it star jumps in England? Oh,
do we call it star jumps in England? Oh, you do? Yeah. The Americans have it
you do? Yeah. The Americans have it wrong. Obviously, who the hell's Jack?
wrong. Obviously, who the hell's Jack? So all of a sudden do 20 star jumps,
So all of a sudden do 20 star jumps, right? And when you do that, you get rid
right? And when you do that, you get rid of all the adrenaline. The adrenaline is
of all the adrenaline. The adrenaline is what makes you shake and also what makes
what makes you shake and also what makes you speak really quickly because when
you speak really quickly because when you start to shake it's sending signals
you start to shake it's sending signals to your brain that you're nervous now
to your brain that you're nervous now you start to think you're nervous and
you start to think you're nervous and then when you think you're nervous now
then when you think you're nervous now you're speaking really quickly right? So
you're speaking really quickly right? So again these things help slow you down.
again these things help slow you down. Now those are things you can do before
Now those are things you can do before you go in. One last thing you can do
you go in. One last thing you can do before you go in actually is what makes
before you go in actually is what makes us really nervous is being
us really nervous is being self-conscious. But you can only be
self-conscious. But you can only be self-conscious if you're thinking about
self-conscious if you're thinking about yourself. So then stop thinking about
yourself. So then stop thinking about yourself and realize it was not about
yourself and realize it was not about you. If you're going on stage, it's not
you. If you're going on stage, it's not about you. It's about every single
about you. It's about every single person you're going to serve. And I'll
person you're going to serve. And I'll be honest with you too, coming here, I
be honest with you too, coming here, I felt a bit nervous, right? But then I
felt a bit nervous, right? But then I thought to myself, well, it's not about
thought to myself, well, it's not about me. It's about me trying to add as much
me. It's about me trying to add as much value as I can to Jay's audience. And
value as I can to Jay's audience. And it's about Jay. I want to connect with
it's about Jay. I want to connect with Jay. And the moment I made it about you,
Jay. And the moment I made it about you, and I made it about the audience we're
and I made it about the audience we're about to serve, I had no cognitive
about to serve, I had no cognitive capacity left to be nervous because I'm
capacity left to be nervous because I'm not thinking about myself. So to me, the
not thinking about myself. So to me, the these three small tools, you got the
these three small tools, you got the breathing, get rid of the adrenaline and
breathing, get rid of the adrenaline and mindset shift, it helps calm you down.
mindset shift, it helps calm you down. And now when you go in, if you find
And now when you go in, if you find yourself racing in it, then pause and
yourself racing in it, then pause and take a deep breath. And that's how you
take a deep breath. And that's how you can remedy it. Cuz if you go in, you're
can remedy it. Cuz if you go in, you're like, "Oh, I'm here. I'm really
like, "Oh, I'm here. I'm really excited." You take a deep breath and
excited." You take a deep breath and then continue speaking. And right after
then continue speaking. And right after the deep breath, it's going to slow your
the deep breath, it's going to slow your speech right down. Even when I did it
speech right down. Even when I did it there, I all of a sudden feel more
there, I all of a sudden feel more relaxed now. Yeah. The reason people
relaxed now. Yeah. The reason people aren't comfortable with the pause is
aren't comfortable with the pause is because they don't know what the pause
because they don't know what the pause is for, right? And when you think the
is for, right? And when you think the pause is useless, that's why you develop
pause is useless, that's why you develop the behavior of filling the pause,
the behavior of filling the pause, always talking. Um,
always talking. Um, uh, non filler words as well. And, so,
uh, non filler words as well. And, so, like, do you know what I mean? We do
like, do you know what I mean? We do that because we don't understand the
that because we don't understand the power of the pause. Whereas the pause
power of the pause. Whereas the pause allows people to process what you're
allows people to process what you're saying. Think about it. Now, listeners,
saying. Think about it. Now, listeners, as you're listening to that, the moment
as you're listening to that, the moment I paused, you just did it again. You had
I paused, you just did it again. You had a moment to process the things that I
a moment to process the things that I was saying. If I just talk really
was saying. If I just talk really quickly and I don't pause at all when
quickly and I don't pause at all when I'm talking, all of a sudden now
I'm talking, all of a sudden now everything that I say has no clear
everything that I say has no clear points because you don't have any time
points because you don't have any time to process anything that I'm saying, all
to process anything that I'm saying, all of a sudden everything after a while
of a sudden everything after a while becomes mumbo jumbo,
becomes mumbo jumbo, right? It just becomes nothing. 100%.
right? It just becomes nothing. 100%. Whereas pausing gives people time to
Whereas pausing gives people time to process. Pausing gives you time to
process. Pausing gives you time to breathe so that you can relax so that
breathe so that you can relax so that you don't speak too quickly. There are
you don't speak too quickly. There are so many benefits to I mean think of
so many benefits to I mean think of music again. I love using music
music again. I love using music analogies because the most important
analogies because the most important note in an orchestra happens after a
note in an orchestra happens after a crescendo which is what? Silence.
crescendo which is what? Silence. They'll build the peak and then all of a
They'll build the peak and then all of a sudden the musicians will play and play
sudden the musicians will play and play and it gets to this peak moment and then
and it gets to this peak moment and then just
just nothing and the audience is in awe of
nothing and the audience is in awe of what they just experienced. You speak
what they just experienced. You speak about it so powerfully and it's so
about it so powerfully and it's so convincing. I'm like this is this this
convincing. I'm like this is this this has to hit because I I applied that even
has to hit because I I applied that even and that come come back to Zoom calls,
and that come come back to Zoom calls, meetings, everything. I think it's so
meetings, everything. I think it's so important to not feel that the person
important to not feel that the person who talks the fastest is the one who
who talks the fastest is the one who will get their point in. And I think
will get their point in. And I think that's sometimes the thing of like, hey
that's sometimes the thing of like, hey guys, so I just really want to share
guys, so I just really want to share this with you because if we just if we
this with you because if we just if we just did this, this would solve
just did this, this would solve everything. Like this is the thing. And
everything. Like this is the thing. And it's almost like you've actually lost
it's almost like you've actually lost all importance because of that pace.
all importance because of that pace. Also because there's no clarity. Yes. If
Also because there's no clarity. Yes. If people don't process anything that you
people don't process anything that you say, there's no clarity. Yes. You have
say, there's no clarity. Yes. You have to think about communication is not what
to think about communication is not what I just send. It's how it's being
I just send. It's how it's being received,
received, right? It's not, "Oh, I've sent it. It's
right? It's not, "Oh, I've sent it. It's done. It's out there. What do you
done. It's out there. What do you think?" I I don't even remember what you
think?" I I don't even remember what you said. Yeah. And I think I think that's a
said. Yeah. And I think I think that's a that's a big mistake. And And often
that's a big mistake. And And often people do that again because they don't
people do that again because they don't understand that the way you deliver has
understand that the way you deliver has an impact on how others receive. Yeah. I
an impact on how others receive. Yeah. I really appreciate your switch to the
really appreciate your switch to the audience consciousness versus the us
audience consciousness versus the us consciousness.
consciousness. because it seems really small. It seems
because it seems really small. It seems really obvious. It seems kind of that
really obvious. It seems kind of that makes sense. Yeah. But it really is
makes sense. Yeah. But it really is everything. Yeah. Because all of a
everything. Yeah. Because all of a sudden if you're thinking about being
sudden if you're thinking about being impressive,
impressive, that's a really hard place to live from
that's a really hard place to live from because now you're judging every word
because now you're judging every word that comes out of your mouth and judging
that comes out of your mouth and judging whether it's impressive, whether it's
new. Yeah. They're trying something new. They're exploring. And we always look at
They're exploring. And we always look at it and we judge them and we think, "Oh,
it and we judge them and we think, "Oh, they're fake." That, you know, and half
they're fake." That, you know, and half the time it's just someone trying to
the time it's just someone trying to figure something out. And then what we
figure something out. And then what we don't realize we're doing is then we
don't realize we're doing is then we give them negative feedback that
give them negative feedback that immediately puts them into the same
immediately puts them into the same patterns of behavior that has been
patterns of behavior that has been causing them pain because we're not as
causing them pain because we're not as compassionate. We see what they do. We
compassionate. We see what they do. We don't see why they do what they do. Mhm.
don't see why they do what they do. Mhm. Right. Right? Whereas I think if we took
Right. Right? Whereas I think if we took a moment to go, why would that person do
a moment to go, why would that person do that? Oh, maybe they're exploring their
that? Oh, maybe they're exploring their instrument. Right. And I think I think
instrument. Right. And I think I think it was Kyung that said that again. We we
it was Kyung that said that again. We we see what people do. We don't see
see what people do. We don't see why they do what they do. Vin, it's been
why they do what they do. Vin, it's been uh such a joy talking to you, man. You
uh such a joy talking to you, man. You are you're brilliant. You're you're not
are you're brilliant. You're you're not just a brilliant communicator. You've
just a brilliant communicator. You've got a great heart, too. And it comes
got a great heart, too. And it comes across in the way you want to help
across in the way you want to help people and see them grow. and and the
people and see them grow. and and the amount that you've thought through the
amount that you've thought through the challenges, the trip ups, the all the
challenges, the trip ups, the all the blocks that we run into, man. It's it's
blocks that we run into, man. It's it's really beautiful and I really thank you
really beautiful and I really thank you and commend you for your amazing work
and commend you for your amazing work and it's uh it's very special. So, thank
and it's uh it's very special. So, thank you, man. Jay, thank you for giving me
you, man. Jay, thank you for giving me the opportunity. I I'm from Adelaide,
the opportunity. I I'm from Adelaide, South Australia. I I never thought that
South Australia. I I never thought that I'd ever be able to connect with you in
I'd ever be able to connect with you in person and hang out with you, Jay. This
person and hang out with you, Jay. This is this is unreal. Thank you for the
is this is unreal. Thank you for the opportunity. No, I'm a fan, so it's
opportunity. No, I'm a fan, so it's easy. Uh, we end every episode of On
easy. Uh, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These have to
Purpose with a final five. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence
be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Are you serious? Yeah. So, you
maximum. Are you serious? Yeah. So, you can't This is my kryptonite. So, you
can't This is my kryptonite. So, you can't You can't You can't Yeah. I'll
can't You can't You can't Yeah. I'll probably break it for you because you're
probably break it for you because you're such a good explainer. Sure. Sure. I'll
such a good explainer. Sure. Sure. I'll let you do it. No, no, no, no. I won't.
let you do it. No, no, no, no. I won't. I'm going to try to stick to Hey, rules
I'm going to try to stick to Hey, rules are rules. Rules are rules. The first
are rules. Rules are rules. The first question, what's the best piece of
question, what's the best piece of communication advice you've ever heard
communication advice you've ever heard or received? Your voice is an
or received? Your voice is an instrument.
instrument. Play all of the songs that are trapped
Play all of the songs that are trapped within you. Don't die with all your
within you. Don't die with all your music trapped inside. That was a great
music trapped inside. That was a great sentence. It's a long sentence. It's a
sentence. It's a long sentence. It's a great sentence. Long sentences are fine.
great sentence. Long sentences are fine. Uh, second question. What's the worst
Uh, second question. What's the worst communication advice you've ever heard,
communication advice you've ever heard, received, or given? If you're nervous,
received, or given? If you're nervous, just look over their heads. I was
just look over their heads. I was literally given that advice. What What
literally given that advice. What What are you meant You can expand. What are
are you meant You can expand. What are you meant to do? Well, well, again, you
you meant to do? Well, well, again, you want to look at people. Look at them in
want to look at people. Look at them in the eyes because the advice was look
the eyes because the advice was look over their heads. they won't be able to
over their heads. they won't be able to tell. And this was my first piece of
tell. And this was my first piece of advice I was given when I was going on
advice I was given when I was going on stage. And I started looking over
stage. And I started looking over people's heads and it just looked like I
people's heads and it just looked like I was arrogant, right? Cuz I was like,
was arrogant, right? Cuz I was like, "Oh, hey everyone. Good to see you." And
"Oh, hey everyone. Good to see you." And I wasn't looking them in the eyes.
I wasn't looking them in the eyes. Terrible. And also, you get no feedback.
Terrible. And also, you get no feedback. You have no energetic exchange. You
You have no energetic exchange. You don't have a clue. Yeah. Well, the worst
don't have a clue. Yeah. Well, the worst thing is it's that and then you look
thing is it's that and then you look like an arrogant person. Arrogant. Yeah,
like an arrogant person. Arrogant. Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought
that's interesting. I never thought about that. All right. Uh, question
about that. All right. Uh, question number three on that point. Why does our
number three on that point. Why does our body and our hands shake when we're
body and our hands shake when we're nervous? is the excess adrenaline and
nervous? is the excess adrenaline and you have the remedy to that in this
you have the remedy to that in this episode already. Star jumps.
episode already. Star jumps. I love it. Uh, question number four.
I love it. Uh, question number four. What's something that you used to
What's something that you used to believe was true about communication but
believe was true about communication but not anymore? That I was stuck with the
not anymore? That I was stuck with the sound of my voice. It's just a series of
sound of my voice. It's just a series of behaviors. If you change the behaviors,
behaviors. If you change the behaviors, you change the sound.
you change the sound. Example, when I told my dad I wanted to
Example, when I told my dad I wanted to leave accounting to become a magician, I
leave accounting to become a magician, I remember what he said. He said, "What in
remember what he said. He said, "What in the hell you want to be to Harry
the hell you want to be to Harry Potter?" Literally, what he said to me,
Potter?" Literally, what he said to me, "I just changed the way I moved my
"I just changed the way I moved my mouth. I just changed a series of
mouth. I just changed a series of behaviors. I changed the sound I was
behaviors. I changed the sound I was able to create. It's just behaviors."
able to create. It's just behaviors." Walk me through that conversation.
Yeah. So my my mom and dad are refugees from Vietnam and they're they cling to
from Vietnam and they're they cling to safety and security because of fear and
safety and security because of fear and they've known fear all of their lives.
they've known fear all of their lives. So I remember coming home saying to mom
So I remember coming home saying to mom and dad, I said, "Mom, dad, I I really
and dad, I said, "Mom, dad, I I really want to quit university." And obviously
want to quit university." And obviously they wanted me to fulfill the Asian
they wanted me to fulfill the Asian prophecy, obviously. Same with your
prophecy, obviously. Same with your parents, I'm sure. I had this really
parents, I'm sure. I had this really heart-to-he heart conversation with them
heart-to-he heart conversation with them where I said, "Mom, dad, you why did you
where I said, "Mom, dad, you why did you escape the war? Why?" And they said, "We
escape the war? Why?" And they said, "We escaped because we want to find a better
escaped because we want to find a better home for you." I'm like, "Yeah, yeah,
home for you." I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, but why why was Vietnam at the time not
but why why was Vietnam at the time not a good home? Why is Australia a better
a good home? Why is Australia a better home?" And they said,
home?" And they said, "Freedom." And I said, "Oh, great. So,
"Freedom." And I said, "Oh, great. So, so you you made the made the decision to
so you you made the made the decision to to flee to Australia for freedom. Then
to flee to Australia for freedom. Then do you want to force me into a career
do you want to force me into a career that's going to create misery for me? Is
that's going to create misery for me? Is Is that what you want?" And I know why
Is that what you want?" And I know why you're doing this. Because of love, Mom
you're doing this. Because of love, Mom and and Dad, because you're you're
and and Dad, because you're you're you're so afraid. But we're not in
you're so afraid. But we're not in Vietnam anymore. We're in Australia and
Vietnam anymore. We're in Australia and we're free. And I know that the reason
we're free. And I know that the reason you came here is to give me the freedom
you came here is to give me the freedom to do what I love. And I was able to
to do what I love. And I was able to wake them up from fear and remember the
wake them up from fear and remember the main reason why they came here in the
main reason why they came here in the first place because their lives were
first place because their lives were driven by fear of not enough of we're in
driven by fear of not enough of we're in danger. And they they still carried all
danger. And they they still carried all of that fear. They didn't realize it.
of that fear. They didn't realize it. And when I woke them up to that, it was
And when I woke them up to that, it was such a beautiful conversation because it
such a beautiful conversation because it was almost like my parents were
was almost like my parents were reminded. They're like, "No, no, thank
reminded. They're like, "No, no, thank you for reminding us. We've been so
you for reminding us. We've been so driven by fear our entire lives." Cuz I
driven by fear our entire lives." Cuz I said to them, I did work experience at
said to them, I did work experience at an accounting firm and dad, do you know
an accounting firm and dad, do you know what they all do on a Friday night? They
what they all do on a Friday night? They go drinking because they're drowning
go drinking because they're drowning their sorrows in something they don't
their sorrows in something they don't like. And I'm sure people love
like. And I'm sure people love accounting. It's just where I do work
accounting. It's just where I do work experience. They didn't love it. They
experience. They didn't love it. They dread it every day, right? And I said,
dread it every day, right? And I said, "That's me. That's going to be me. That
"That's me. That's going to be me. That that's the path I'm walking. So I
that's the path I'm walking. So I already know that's not the path, you
already know that's not the path, you And then the most beautiful thing my dad
And then the most beautiful thing my dad said to me after realizing all of this
said to me after realizing all of this is he goes, "You still owe me one thing
is he goes, "You still owe me one thing though, boy. In this life, you have to
though, boy. In this life, you have to jump as high as you can. And as long as
jump as high as you can. And as long as I'm alive, I'll forever be your net."
I'm alive, I'll forever be your net." Wow. And I needed that net a lot of
Wow. And I needed that net a lot of times. Oh yeah. I tested that net many
times. Oh yeah. I tested that net many times. And and I I I share this now in a
times. And and I I I share this now in a long answer because Jay, I'm sitting
long answer because Jay, I'm sitting here having achieved the things I've
here having achieved the things I've achieved because of my mom and my dad.
achieved because of my mom and my dad. without that net, without their support,
without that net, without their support, without their love, without their
without their love, without their guidance, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't
guidance, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have been able to do this. And I think
have been able to do this. And I think this is true for those listening too.
this is true for those listening too. You would not be where you are if it
You would not be where you are if it wasn't for whether it's the families we
wasn't for whether it's the families we choose or the families were born into.
choose or the families were born into. Mhm. If it wasn't for them, we we would
Mhm. If it wasn't for them, we we would not be who we are. We would not be where
not be who we are. We would not be where we are. They must be really proud now.
we are. They must be really proud now. Yeah. They they they still And then you
Yeah. They they they still And then you quit magic. The first time my dad came
quit magic. The first time my dad came and saw me speak, at the end of it, the
and saw me speak, at the end of it, the funniest thing he comes up to me, he
funniest thing he comes up to me, he goes, "They they they pay you for this?"
goes, "They they they pay you for this?" And he was so mindblown because he goes
And he was so mindblown because he goes cuz I wouldn't. He just he was so
cuz I wouldn't. He just he was so shocked. He couldn't believe that they
shocked. He couldn't believe that they he couldn't believe it was a thing. He
he couldn't believe it was a thing. He couldn't believe that professional
couldn't believe that professional speaking was a career path. So, but it's
speaking was a career path. So, but it's so beautiful to see their mind open up.
so beautiful to see their mind open up. And and then the most beautiful thing my
And and then the most beautiful thing my dad said to me recently, this was maybe
dad said to me recently, this was maybe in the last 5 years where he he came up
in the last 5 years where he he came up to me and he said, "Thanks for not
to me and he said, "Thanks for not giving up on
giving up on me." Because because there was a lot of
me." Because because there was a lot of conversations at the time in many
conversations at the time in many different Vietnamese families where the
different Vietnamese families where the kids would give up on their parents
kids would give up on their parents where it would be like, "You know what?
where it would be like, "You know what? If you're not supporting me, stuff you.
If you're not supporting me, stuff you. I'm out." Whereas I I I I really didn't
I'm out." Whereas I I I I really didn't give up on my parents. I I remember my
give up on my parents. I I remember my first magic gig I did and I made like
first magic gig I did and I made like 1,500 bucks for performing for an hour.
1,500 bucks for performing for an hour. This was like outrageous. This is a
This was like outrageous. This is a week's worth of work, right? And I
week's worth of work, right? And I bought home the cash and I was like,
bought home the cash and I was like, "Dad, look, I I got this in an hour."
"Dad, look, I I got this in an hour." And I celebrated that moment with him. I
And I celebrated that moment with him. I made him a part of that because I knew
made him a part of that because I knew that I had to slowly show him what's
that I had to slowly show him what's possible. I couldn't all of a sudden go,
possible. I couldn't all of a sudden go, "Dad, refugee been through the war." And
"Dad, refugee been through the war." And immediately say, "Magician." To him,
immediately say, "Magician." To him, it's like, "What the freak is that? That
it's like, "What the freak is that? That doesn't make sense." But as I slowly
doesn't make sense." But as I slowly shared my wins with him on my journey, I
shared my wins with him on my journey, I was able to open my dad's mind. So my
was able to open my dad's mind. So my dad got to be a part of the journey with
dad got to be a part of the journey with me and my mom. And when he thanked me
me and my mom. And when he thanked me for that, it was one of the sweetest
for that, it was one of the sweetest moments because you could have very
moments because you could have very easily gave up on me. And now we have
easily gave up on me. And now we have this beautiful relationship and it's one
this beautiful relationship and it's one of my most important relationships.
of my most important relationships. Yeah, that's beautiful, man. Thank you
Yeah, that's beautiful, man. Thank you for sharing that. That counts as one
for sharing that. That counts as one word. No, no, no. I wanted I wanted to
word. No, no, no. I wanted I wanted to hear it. I wanted to uh fifth and final
hear it. I wanted to uh fifth and final question. We ask this to every guest
question. We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you
who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in
could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it
the world had to follow, what would it be? Use your instrument to spread more
be? Use your instrument to spread more love, kindness, and compassion. Vin
love, kindness, and compassion. Vin Jiang, thank you so much. Uh, such an
Jiang, thank you so much. Uh, such an honor having you here. I hope we get to
honor having you here. I hope we get to do this many, many more times together.
do this many, many more times together. Thank you, Jay. Uh, if all of you are
Thank you, Jay. Uh, if all of you are listening and watching, if you don't
listening and watching, if you don't already, follow Vin on social media. We
already, follow Vin on social media. We will put all the links in the comments.
will put all the links in the comments. Go and follow him across Tik Tok,
Go and follow him across Tik Tok, Instagram, all platforms. Uh, I really
Instagram, all platforms. Uh, I really hope that this episode makes you a
hope that this episode makes you a better communicator to your partner,
better communicator to your partner, your parents, in your profession, in all
your parents, in your profession, in all areas of your life. It's such a key
areas of your life. It's such a key skill that's needed. And I would love to
skill that's needed. And I would love to see on Instagram and Tik Tok the clips,
see on Instagram and Tik Tok the clips, the moments, the parts that really stood
the moments, the parts that really stood out to you, tag us both so we can see
out to you, tag us both so we can see what you're practicing. If you do a
what you're practicing. If you do a video of yourself every day and start
video of yourself every day and start posting or practicing, tag us in it. I
posting or practicing, tag us in it. I want to see it. I really, really want to
want to see it. I really, really want to see it. I really, really want to see it.
see it. I really, really want to see it. It would be so awesome. I'd love to be
It would be so awesome. I'd love to be able to interact with you all and see
able to interact with you all and see how much you've grown from it. And
how much you've grown from it. And again, Vin, I you are welcome back to
again, Vin, I you are welcome back to OnPurpose anytime you want. So, I hope
OnPurpose anytime you want. So, I hope you'll come back and uh we'll see you
you'll come back and uh we'll see you again. 100%. Thank you, man. Cheers,
again. 100%. Thank you, man. Cheers, brother. Thank you. If you love this
brother. Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with
episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gab Mate on understanding your
Dr. Gab Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds
trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.
to start moving on from the past. Everything in nature grows only where
Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So, a tree doesn't grow
it's vulnerable. So, a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It
where it's hard and thick, does it? It goes where it's soft and green and
goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.
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