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Ancient Warfare Historian Rates 9 More Battle Scenes In Movies | How Real Is It? | Insider

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[Applause]

so he dies there

right he survives somehow he's fine he

just gets up it's cool but like he gets

thrown by a rhino like shouldn't he be

dead I don't think you shake that off my

name is Ru Kik I'm a historian of

Ancient Warfare at Lincoln College

University of Oxford I specialize in

classical Greek Warfare I'm back again

to look at more battle scenes in movies

and TV and judging how real they

are it's actually a really interesting

clip like it's got some really accurate

features of how to approach a fortified

position like the the attacking force is

really quite spread out they've all got

their shields in front of them they're

trying to use screens to maintain in

cover while they're advancing so they're

trying not to make themselves into too

much of a Target which is really [Music]

[Music]

good so the command loose I mean I've

talked about this before movies and TV

shows just love doing this over and over

they want their archers to be musket men

they want them to follow a fixed

sequence and fire in volleys but archers

didn't historically do this there is no

evidence that archers would shoot in

volleys it's just something they made up

for the movie because it looks good to

have them all do it at the same time and

do it at the word of command some of

these bows they might have a draw weight

of 60 lb or more a long bow has a draw

weight of 120 lb if you're waiting for

the command and you have to just hold it

there and wait for the guy to tell you

to lose um your arm's going to go numb

you're going to give that up and after a

volley or two you're going to be exhausted

[Music]

so the Defenders here are using the most

basic tactic of course that you can use

which is to try and shoot the people are

operating the engines if you can get rid

of those then the engines themselves are

just wood the obvious response to that

was to try and protect the the ram

itself with some kind of roof or screen

which is what's something that has

happened since ancient time I think it's

supposed to be the kind of ram that you

might use either to batter against the

walls like you can roll it back and

forth and smash it into into something

or to pry apart the stone throughout

history you use musical instruments or

Flags or fire to kind of signal to other

people uh to to make sure that they play

their part in the battle having

something really loud like a trumpet

that you can hear over the noise of the

battle and you can hear it at a long

distance is a really basic way to do

that the one thing that I'm slightly

questioning in this scene is that the

signal seems to be just a simple single

trumpet blast so it's really simple it's

really straightforward um that could be

mistaken for a lot of things that could

be a signal to attack for the main force

it could be a signal to retreat and if

this is the signal they use to summon

the dragon it implies they have

absolutely no other signal r army units

would have had like much more complex

signals they had a whole set of them

that they were able to able to use in

battle to indicate different Maneuvers

so for instance Roman armies you You'

see these trumpet players with each unit

and they would be able to give orders

specifically if you read tactical

manuals from the helenistic and Roman

period they think these are these

authors still think the most reliable

way to convey an order is to just you

know use your aegon and the other sort

of leaders are actually getting directly

involved in the fighting and they become

this kind of sort of um symbol for their

side right riding these dragons and that

is is fundamentally really historical

there's a particular leadership style

which is leading by example which is

very common throughout history as a way

for these Kings to demonstrate their

worth as Leaders you know people follow

them because they're willing to take the

same risk as the troops Alexander the

Great for instance was really renowned

for this like leading from the front

being the first into the enemy but

there's also the other consideration

which already like it forms the other

the other opposite pole of that kind of

problem of leadership they often die so

it's something that a lot of leaders is

considered to be unwise because you end

up you know losing a lot of generals or

even you know monarchs or Royal figures

in battle you want to avoid that well

you want to make sure you keep them out

of Harm's Way I would give it a six I

have a personal grudge against the

against the arrow commands like at this

point I I have to get them to stop it at

some point so they have to lose points

for that and also where's my ditch I

need one um that's bad but otherwise

like there is a lot of stuff here that's

the orc Army manages to block the river

um bring the water level down and that

allows them to approach the city that's

both based on historical examples and uh

something that would realistically

happen as a way to overcome a city's

defenses one of the great examples of

that it's a story we we're not really

certain if it's historical but Cyrus the

Great took uh took the city of Babylon

that way um by diverting the Euphrates

through a couple of ditches that he had

dug around the city which allowed his

army to essentially infiltrate the city

through a through the dry riverbed um

this is why they call him Cyrus the

Great because he knows the use of a good

ditch obviously what they're doing here

when they're they're shooting these

catapult bolts hundreds of meters up

into the sky to bring down this massive

rockfall um I think that's more a

narrative shortcut than a real tactic it

takes obviously a long time to kind of

divert an entire River so the only times

that you'd be able to do that is is if

your enem is already besieged and

[Music]

what is going on with those walls

they're so basic I mean like there's no

cover for The Archers right they just

have a basic paret they don't have any

battlements they don't have any cover

they don't even have like a roof over it

or anything I mean if you have you know

thousands of years to engineer your

defenses you can put a roof on it so

what you really want on a wall like this

partial barriers that go up to the full

height of a person standing on the wall

so that they can have cover or they can

choose to be exposed in order to shoot

arrows when you realize as well that

this world doesn't have any kind of

ditch or other other um earth work in

front of it it's really relying on the

river to keep the enemies at a distance

um if they can approach then even the

Defenders are going to be very vulnerable

vulnerable [Music]

[Music]

here horses actually can do some

fighting like they can be trained to be

an aggressive weapon or aggressive

animal on the battlefield in ancient

times this is very rare and very much

worth remarking upon we have like one

story of a guy during the ionian Revolt

that Herodotus describes a Persian

General whose horse was also known to

fight so he would kick and bite but in

medieval times I mean when they bred

these specific like these purpose-bred

war horses um they apparently were

taught to be very aggressive and they

were taught to to fight on behalf of

their Rider um so it becomes more normal

over time to actually get these horses

essentially catapults were sometimes

used to try and launch either diseased

animals or corpses of humans into a

besieged city to try and both create

panic but also spread disease and so you

could use that to kind of you know

besieged so this is a fictional weapon

that they call the ravager I mean it's

very common for attackers to instead of

trying to get on top of the wall with

with ladders and Towers to just attack

the fabric of the wall itself so even in

like ancient times you have these

beautiful Assyrian reliefs of Siege

scenes in which they're just going at

the wall with shovels and pickaxes

instead of picking into the wall they

decide to try and pull stones out with

this kind of um torsion Force um I think

that's weird I don't think that's real

but at the same time I mean that's

fundamentally something that that does

um have have a resemblance to Siege hook

which is this kind of weapon that

essentially a bar with a reinforced

metal tip that you use in order to pry

apart the stones of a wall I mean a lot

of these walls essentially are just

stacks of stones right they early walls

in particular don't even have mortar

they don't they're not stuck together so

if you can loosen the the stones or

crack them or bring them out then

gradually you'll form a hole um and

especially you know ancient walls a lot

of ancient walls are just mud brick so

if you smash into them with Force they

just pulverize there's a lot of fantasy

technology here on the other hand on

terms in terms of its basic idea of a

Siege scene

um through a dry riverbed I think that's

a really interesting option I would I

would give it a [Applause]

[Applause]

seven like they are actually based on

ancient Roman ship designs very clearly

I mean they're a little bit short and

stubby so they may have to be like

liberians which would make sense for the

Imperial period they seem to have

combined the Liberian which is quite a

light ship with the kind of towers and

Siege engines that you get mounted onto

earlier much bigger warships like crinks

like these big five that they used to

use during the Punic Wars but it's a

really cool idea that they really did

their homework on what these ships are

supposed to look like it's just a really

weird feature that they have their masks

and sails still on the decks are cleared

for battle they do not have their masks

on them every every ship in a in a naval

battle in the ancient world moves on

rowing power there are no sailing

warships that doesn't happen this is

just like extra weight that destabilizes

and slows down the ship claim this city

for the glory of Rome historically it

doesn't make sense New Media had been

subjected centuries earlier but it's

very interesting to see a City built on

the sea like the defenses go right up to

the water and you actually see in this

scene they have a double wall so they

have an outer curtain which is right on

the on the on the surf and then they

have these passages leading to an inner

curtain as well so there's a layer

defense system going on which is really

you know historically quite common for

bigger cities and it's really effective

because of course it means if the enemy

overcomes the first line there's still a

second line you can fight for and you're

pushing them into this narrow confined

space where they're going to be

overlooked by your archers overlooked by

your warriors you love to see it and

also obviously building your wall up to

the shore um you can use the C as an

additional defense it's the mother of all

ditches and then the catapults start throwing

throwing

fireballs and I'm

like Ridley we talked about this

catapults are always throwing Fireballs

in these movies they historically didn't

they would never do that why would you

do that you're going to set your own

ships on fire this is a terrible idea

you throw basic rocks or shoot bolts at

the Defenders to keep their heads down

that's all they're good for

really okay stop oh no was that a

truche yeah that's a trebuchet I mean

again like maybe he had those left over

from Kingdom of Heaven or something or

from one of his other movies but like

this is a thousand years out of place

it's an invention of the medieval period

it the Romans did not know counterweight trichet

trichet stop

stop

it the Greeks invented tan artillery

which is a very basic form of Bolt

shooter they later developed Stone

Shooters the Romans elaborated on this

they developed these oners which are

these armed uh catapults they think no

one would notice or or that it wouldn't

attention so a lot of the equipment here

is is basically just a mishmash of

different Mediterranean like ancient

Mediterranean arms and armor and then

for some reason the hero your um Paul

mescal's uh character he's he's just

just wearing a cloth little weird little

leather thing they should have put him

in one of the armors that at least have

a historical reference to it like some

of that some of that male in the

background is really great I just put

him in that like that's that's so

he dies there

right he survives somehow he's fine he

just gets up it's cool but like he gets

thrown by a rhino I don't think you

shake that off wild animals were often a

feature of gladiatorial combat like they

would let wild animals into the arena

and have the the Gladiators enact hunts

essentially just try to hunt them and

kill them the exoticism is part of the

spectacle so if you could get weirder

animals animals that have been less

often seen in Rome that would be even

better there is evidence of of rhinos

making an appearance in the flavian

amphitheater but we don't really know if

they were ever made to fight humans I

mean most of the time they would

probably be put on display or made to

fight other

gladiatorial Naval Combat called now

Makia is a real thing most likely this

would have happened in separate venues

that were purpose built to allow them to

move the water in and out quickly and

where they'd have more space to kind of

kind of do this this reenactment I think

it's really interesting they actually

put that on the screen there's

absolutely no evidence that the Romans

would ever bring sharks into into play

in these Naval gladiatorial fights this

is not something that you can easily

just sort of Transport into into the

flavan amphitheater that's just not so

that the thumbs up thumbs down thing

it's like it's a big cliche for movies

we don't actually know the gestures that

were used so this is something that's

become an icon of movies about ancient

Rome but it has very little to do with

the actual evidence I would probably

give it a five there are some some some

things that you you really love to see

this on the screen like the namaka the

naval assault of a city like great stuff

but the way that he did it ends up being

really kind of sloppy and and and messy

and with mistakes that didn't need to be made

made

they attack before they can establish

their war camp and Supply their

soldiers so I have many opinions all of

them bad so they're supposed to have run

from their Camp into battle um by

running a mile across this plane now

many people question this for obvious

reasons and many people have questioned

it for centuries we don't really believe

that people could run that far in full

armor in the summer heat and I think

that's what they're kind of trying to

convey that the Persians were taken by

surprise because the Athenians were

advancing much faster and going straight

fight trying to convey is this idea that

the Athenians won the Battle of Marathon

through shock tactics the Athenians

didn't attack them while they were

disembarking they encamped across from

them in this plane and sat looking at

is this such a bizarre way of depicting

Greek equipment I mean we know very well

what kind of equipment they would have

carried because they kept on depicting

it on all of their art and especially

after this Victory they were very proud

of depicting themselves the way they

looked and depicting the Persians the

way they had been defeated they have

little boss Shields which are wrong the

swords are accurate that sword that the

mysticus is carrying looks like a very

good Greek sea Force but then they have

double-headed axes they have all sorts

of random weapons that have absolutely

no place in Classical Greece Greeks are

heavy Spearman double grip Shields long

Spears heavy armor the Persians seem to

be carrying the copes which is an

Egyptian sword the Egyptians were a big

part of the Persian navy so you might

have had some Egyptian Marines on board

may have carried these kinds of weapons

but I mean if we assume that this is a

force of Persians which the movie wants

you to believe then why are they

carrying Egyptian weapons and not

the ancient battle account actually does

say that they pursued the Persians to

their ships and they seiz some of the

ships so they have these really broad

gang planks um which I mean would have

been really nice if they had those I

think that would have been make things a

lot easier but as far as we know

embarking and disembarking from these

ships is actually quite difficult

because they're just sort of either

beached or lying just offshore while

this clip is working with a sort of a

kernel of what we're told about the

Battle of Marathon basically everything

you're seeing here is complete fantasy

so I would give it a to one thing I'll

give them the kind of sheer scale of the

violence happening in this battle is

something that the Greeks themselves

were already kind of wanting to convey

like they want us to know that this is a

this is a huge

thing R

now R now okay him slapping the lances

with his sword right not only is that

not historical like that was made up by

that guy right there for this scene like

he just thought that would be a cool

thing to do so he did it and that they

kept it in the movie and like you know

it works so well that you almost want

this to be a real thing and people

sometimes ask me like is that a real

thing is that something that ancient

like ancient or medieval commanders

would do it's like no Bernard Hill did

that and now it's in this like in

incredible depiction of something that

looks like premodern Warfare um but this

that's just that's just Cinema that's

just in this movie [Music]

so Calvary charges usually would have

been a lot slower than you see in movies

where in movies they spend a lot of time

Galloping they're kind of going in full

at full speed into the enemy and they do

that for a long time because it gives a

sense of speed and drama and it gets

that nice hoof beat sound if they have

to be tight they have to be close

together and so in order to maintain

that you got to make sure that you don't

go too fast too soon because the horses

will have different Paces so what they

would actually do is they would approach

slowly maybe they would break into a

trot at some point when they got near

the enemy they will break into a Canter

but if they even Gallop at all um that

meters some people will argue that the

effect of a cavalry charge is purely

psychological so you'd never actually

crash into a prepared enemy you would

always kind of be riding through an

enemy that's already broken and running

away so you're kind of just slapping

them in the back while they've already

been driven off but the other theory is

actually that that horses can be trained

to crash into a solid object this idea

that you see in this scene of them

throwing bodies um there's a um a

testimony by I think Winston Churchill

actually from umman where he describes

this happening that the Infantry was

literally just bodied by these horses

and that that's what what would happen

them I think the movie is trying to

Signal this idea is like we know that

it's going to be very difficult you know

we know not everyone believes that

Calvary can charge into a prep prepared

position and carry it um so we're kind

of trying to anticipate that by saying

look the these Orcs were already

wavering and so when they start wavering

and opening up gaps and lifting their

weapons that's when calary has the

them hey what [Applause]

[Applause]

the oants are basically just a sort of

souped up fantasy version of the war

elephant in ancient times when they were

first introduced they were very

effective because any army that hadn't

seen these animals before was going to

be absolutely terrified so what you

often see infantry do when C when when

elephants charge them is just make space

just make make canals make pathways

through the formation just get out of

the way and the elephants will prefer

not to be fighting you and rather just

be running on that's what the Romans

eventually figured out they should do

against carthaginian elephants for

instance in this case I think they're

too close together so it's going to be

really difficult to create those

channels um the other option is

essentially to overwhelm them with

missiles using light infantry using

archers and other kind of skirmish

to try and and uh and build a screen

effective he's throwing his Lance at the

at the rider who's controlling the the

olone which is I mean I guess it's a way

to try and disable them but the problem

that you're facing really isn't the fact

that there's a driver controlling the

elephant the problem is that you've got

an elephant coming at you and so really

what you want to do is get that animal

to either move past you harmlessly or or

turn away in terms of Cinema in terms of

emotion this is the best scene like this

is the best kind of Ancient Warfare

scene that you could possibly imagine

Return of the King is always going to be

awesome out of 10 if you wanted me to

put a number on this it's very difficult

to say because it's fantasy but like I'd

eight this this scene is portraying the

siege of carak that the Muslim army they

would often try to isolate um Crusader

Knights trying to get around them and

then sort of encircle them attack them

from all sides that seems to be fairly

accurate but at the same time I mean

they would do that in conjunction with

horse archers and other missile troops

that they would use to try and soften

that formation up first they should

absolutely be arrows flying everywhere

and most of these Frankish Knights

should probably be dead before they even

[Music]

combat it's also especially weird to see

that the the Frankish Knights decide to

split up I mean that's absolute Madness

I mean that's guaranteeing your own

defeat they should have stay stuck

together as close as they could they

should have made a strong column and

driven it straight into the Muslim Force

that's the only chance they have of of

getting out Al Al the calvalry tactics

of of of medieval heavy Cavalry like

medieval European Cavalry um are very

much based on the idea that they are a

heavy shock Force they are meant to

trample the enemy I feel like that the

you know really Scott clearly put a lot

of effort into training his Horsemen to

allow him to do this kind of maneuvering

and he wanted to show it on screen it

looks great uh but tactically it's it's

nonsense like they would never have

fought like this and it's it has

absolutely no chance of achieving [Music]

[Music] [Applause]

[Applause]

anything the advantage of a lance is

that it can be couched when you're when

you're charging um when you're when

you're using it on Horseback so you can

actually put that Lance somewhere under

your arm where it's stable where it has

where it's braced by the rest of your

body and by the horse so that you can

then Main maintain a direct line into

combat and put the full weight of your

horse and your person and your weapon

behind that point I think he should have

been overand like that gives you the

range give it a four this scene is a

nonsense but the the the movie tells the story

right normally in battles like these

when Roman infantry is fighting you'd

want to see them use their their

throwing Spears which they had to kind

of disrupt enemy formations and so in

theory you should want to see these two

lines exchanging these volleys of of

javelins before they actually get into

hand-to hand combat but we're told that

specifically at Philippi they didn't do

this it was really quite a battle of

butchers essentially they went straight

into close combat and just hacked at

each other with swords until there was

no one left [Applause]

standing you see them marching into

battle in these orderly blocks in these

orderly units um that is very much how a

Roman legion would Advance the problem

with this scene is that like on the

surface that looks great and I'm happy

with it but then it suddenly devolved

into this Hollywood mob brawl that is

not a realistic Battlefield those units

would try to maintain their formation as

long as possible and if you lose your

formation you run away you instantly

break you get the hell out of there

because you want to restore order before you

[Applause]

fight and the other thing that they do

that really annoys me these guys who are

squeezing their way to the back and then

the next rank comes forward and they're

literally holding on to the straps on

each other's equipment to try and make

sure that that formation maintains that

same order and that the guys are all

sort of sloting in where they're

supposed to be this is a really

unhistorical way to depict what a Roman

army would actually do which is not rank

rotation but line rotations what these

Roman armies were equipped to do was to

take the entire unit including his front

Rank and all the other ranks out of the

line and replace it with another unit

that was coming up from behind they

would have a line rotation system

usually in three lines that would take

turns bearing the brunt of the fighting

but within those lines within those

units the front rank had to remain the

front rank it was absolutely

instrumental to the functioning of an

ancient infantry formation I hold a

grudge against them for using that that

stupid whistle it bothers me so I'm

going to have to mark them down for it

but the equipment in this show is really

the best that you've seen Romans like

this this is really quite authentic for

the late Republic um the the the male

armor the simple helmets the the big

Shields that they're carrying so I guess

five it's a common tactic is to try and

find one position that um they're not

paying attention to or that hasn't been

reinforced to the same degree um

sneaking in there with a small Force um

Alexander the Great did it a few times

he will just offer rewards for the first

person to make it up a particularly

difficult slope or something like that

um in order to to overcome the defenses

I have no idea how you would be able to

shoot a bolt with a crossbow that would

dig so deep into a stone wall that you

could hang a man from it that seems

wild I'm I'm very impressed with that

crossbow I want that technology I'm

surprised they haven't used a ladder to

climb the wall instead doing this sort

by far the most common way for cities to

fall was through treachery so you'd

almost always either have someone sneak

in and open the gates or you'd have

someone on the inside open the gates for

you when you read ancient treatises like

an as tacticus the vast vast bulk of

that work is devoted to how do you keep

people from giving away the password

sewing through the crossbar of the gate

um how do you keep people from giving

sending signals to people outside you

know the besieging force so that that

kind of factor is much more important in

the defense of an ancient city than the

technicalities of what kind of weapons

you might use to defend it at least in

the minds of of ancient authors give it

a six he's infiltrating the wall in a

really bizarre way that doesn't make

sense but then fundamentally the idea of

opening up a gate from the inside so

that friendly forces can can approach

the city and enter like that's obviously

this scene depicts this the the siege of

shyang you also see this arms race

between attackers and defenders in terms

of Siege equipment that they they're

trying to use the Mongols tried to bring

up their original trebuchet which were

essentially Manpower um which have a

limited range to try and bring down the

Walls song Defenders realized that this

would uh make it make the defense a

short story so they dug a moat that was

wide enough that it was impossible to

push those trebus close enough to the

wall to actually do any damage as always

the ditch is not there so you can't

[Music]

any why are they on

fire why Marco Polo tells us uh that he

participated in this Siege and that he

actually explained the use of

counterweight catapults or counterweight

trebuchet to the to the Mongols um but

he seems to be inflating his own role in

that it was these these Iraqi Muslim

Engineers um that showed them how to

build a counterweight cat which or

counterweight trebuchet which works on

the power of gravity with a very large

counterweight in order to swing the beam

around the fulcrum and throw an object

far far uh a far greater distance than

older forms of of uh of Siege artillery

what they're arguing here that you need

to put on more weight to increase the

range that's exactly right I mean that

is how they work fundamentally you just

need to have um you need to have

engineered a structure that can take the

power of that sudden SW

um without you know losing control of

the beam and the and the [Music]

missile why would you do that the

Mongols had a real problem when they

were engaging fortified positions which

is that they specialized in Mountain

Warfare they could defeat anyone in the

open they had the arms to do that but

they struggled with you know Siege

assaults where you need a lot of

infantry to overcome fortifications but

in this particular fight scene you're

actually seeing uh song soldiers outside

of the walls they're caught in the open

so this is where the Mongol Advantage

would come into effect they should

absolutely remain on Horseback and fight

them on Horseback because at that point

scattered infantry is absolutely you

itself these are some of the earliest uh

gunpowder weapons in existence at this

point they don't really exist yet in

Europe um but they really are just this

they're essentially a tube on a stick so

they look quite bulky and it's difficult

to hold them and you kind of need a

second person to show up and and

actually ignite the the fuse I would

give this a three the battle of the the

siege of sang is a really important

moment in history and so it's nice that

there is some depiction of that my

favorite battle scene that I watched

today is the Battle of pelor fields from

low of the Rings not even necessarily

because that accurate it's just the

scene that really gets a rise out of me

I'm watching it now and I still get

goosebumps I just love it um there are

some times when you don't necessarily

need a scene to be accurate but it also

does hit a lot of notes it gets a lot of

things right so I really think that's

that's a golden combination if you like

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YouTube Transcript:Ancient Warfare Historian Rates 9 More Battle Scenes In Movies | How Real Is It? | Insider

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Ancient Warfare Historian Rates 9 More Battle Scenes In Movies | How Real Is It? | Insider