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Ancient Warfare Historian Rates 9 More Battle Scenes In Movies | How Real Is It? | Insider
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[Applause]
so he dies there
right he survives somehow he's fine he
just gets up it's cool but like he gets
thrown by a rhino like shouldn't he be
dead I don't think you shake that off my
name is Ru Kik I'm a historian of
Ancient Warfare at Lincoln College
University of Oxford I specialize in
classical Greek Warfare I'm back again
to look at more battle scenes in movies
and TV and judging how real they
are it's actually a really interesting
clip like it's got some really accurate
features of how to approach a fortified
position like the the attacking force is
really quite spread out they've all got
their shields in front of them they're
trying to use screens to maintain in
cover while they're advancing so they're
trying not to make themselves into too
much of a Target which is really [Music]
[Music]
good so the command loose I mean I've
talked about this before movies and TV
shows just love doing this over and over
they want their archers to be musket men
they want them to follow a fixed
sequence and fire in volleys but archers
didn't historically do this there is no
evidence that archers would shoot in
volleys it's just something they made up
for the movie because it looks good to
have them all do it at the same time and
do it at the word of command some of
these bows they might have a draw weight
of 60 lb or more a long bow has a draw
weight of 120 lb if you're waiting for
the command and you have to just hold it
there and wait for the guy to tell you
to lose um your arm's going to go numb
you're going to give that up and after a
volley or two you're going to be exhausted
[Music]
so the Defenders here are using the most
basic tactic of course that you can use
which is to try and shoot the people are
operating the engines if you can get rid
of those then the engines themselves are
just wood the obvious response to that
was to try and protect the the ram
itself with some kind of roof or screen
which is what's something that has
happened since ancient time I think it's
supposed to be the kind of ram that you
might use either to batter against the
walls like you can roll it back and
forth and smash it into into something
or to pry apart the stone throughout
history you use musical instruments or
Flags or fire to kind of signal to other
people uh to to make sure that they play
their part in the battle having
something really loud like a trumpet
that you can hear over the noise of the
battle and you can hear it at a long
distance is a really basic way to do
that the one thing that I'm slightly
questioning in this scene is that the
signal seems to be just a simple single
trumpet blast so it's really simple it's
really straightforward um that could be
mistaken for a lot of things that could
be a signal to attack for the main force
it could be a signal to retreat and if
this is the signal they use to summon
the dragon it implies they have
absolutely no other signal r army units
would have had like much more complex
signals they had a whole set of them
that they were able to able to use in
battle to indicate different Maneuvers
so for instance Roman armies you You'
see these trumpet players with each unit
and they would be able to give orders
specifically if you read tactical
manuals from the helenistic and Roman
period they think these are these
authors still think the most reliable
way to convey an order is to just you
know use your aegon and the other sort
of leaders are actually getting directly
involved in the fighting and they become
this kind of sort of um symbol for their
side right riding these dragons and that
is is fundamentally really historical
there's a particular leadership style
which is leading by example which is
very common throughout history as a way
for these Kings to demonstrate their
worth as Leaders you know people follow
them because they're willing to take the
same risk as the troops Alexander the
Great for instance was really renowned
for this like leading from the front
being the first into the enemy but
there's also the other consideration
which already like it forms the other
the other opposite pole of that kind of
problem of leadership they often die so
it's something that a lot of leaders is
considered to be unwise because you end
up you know losing a lot of generals or
even you know monarchs or Royal figures
in battle you want to avoid that well
you want to make sure you keep them out
of Harm's Way I would give it a six I
have a personal grudge against the
against the arrow commands like at this
point I I have to get them to stop it at
some point so they have to lose points
for that and also where's my ditch I
need one um that's bad but otherwise
like there is a lot of stuff here that's
the orc Army manages to block the river
um bring the water level down and that
allows them to approach the city that's
both based on historical examples and uh
something that would realistically
happen as a way to overcome a city's
defenses one of the great examples of
that it's a story we we're not really
certain if it's historical but Cyrus the
Great took uh took the city of Babylon
that way um by diverting the Euphrates
through a couple of ditches that he had
dug around the city which allowed his
army to essentially infiltrate the city
through a through the dry riverbed um
this is why they call him Cyrus the
Great because he knows the use of a good
ditch obviously what they're doing here
when they're they're shooting these
catapult bolts hundreds of meters up
into the sky to bring down this massive
rockfall um I think that's more a
narrative shortcut than a real tactic it
takes obviously a long time to kind of
divert an entire River so the only times
that you'd be able to do that is is if
your enem is already besieged and
[Music]
what is going on with those walls
they're so basic I mean like there's no
cover for The Archers right they just
have a basic paret they don't have any
battlements they don't have any cover
they don't even have like a roof over it
or anything I mean if you have you know
thousands of years to engineer your
defenses you can put a roof on it so
what you really want on a wall like this
partial barriers that go up to the full
height of a person standing on the wall
so that they can have cover or they can
choose to be exposed in order to shoot
arrows when you realize as well that
this world doesn't have any kind of
ditch or other other um earth work in
front of it it's really relying on the
river to keep the enemies at a distance
um if they can approach then even the
Defenders are going to be very vulnerable
vulnerable [Music]
[Music]
here horses actually can do some
fighting like they can be trained to be
an aggressive weapon or aggressive
animal on the battlefield in ancient
times this is very rare and very much
worth remarking upon we have like one
story of a guy during the ionian Revolt
that Herodotus describes a Persian
General whose horse was also known to
fight so he would kick and bite but in
medieval times I mean when they bred
these specific like these purpose-bred
war horses um they apparently were
taught to be very aggressive and they
were taught to to fight on behalf of
their Rider um so it becomes more normal
over time to actually get these horses
essentially catapults were sometimes
used to try and launch either diseased
animals or corpses of humans into a
besieged city to try and both create
panic but also spread disease and so you
could use that to kind of you know
besieged so this is a fictional weapon
that they call the ravager I mean it's
very common for attackers to instead of
trying to get on top of the wall with
with ladders and Towers to just attack
the fabric of the wall itself so even in
like ancient times you have these
beautiful Assyrian reliefs of Siege
scenes in which they're just going at
the wall with shovels and pickaxes
instead of picking into the wall they
decide to try and pull stones out with
this kind of um torsion Force um I think
that's weird I don't think that's real
but at the same time I mean that's
fundamentally something that that does
um have have a resemblance to Siege hook
which is this kind of weapon that
essentially a bar with a reinforced
metal tip that you use in order to pry
apart the stones of a wall I mean a lot
of these walls essentially are just
stacks of stones right they early walls
in particular don't even have mortar
they don't they're not stuck together so
if you can loosen the the stones or
crack them or bring them out then
gradually you'll form a hole um and
especially you know ancient walls a lot
of ancient walls are just mud brick so
if you smash into them with Force they
just pulverize there's a lot of fantasy
technology here on the other hand on
terms in terms of its basic idea of a
Siege scene
um through a dry riverbed I think that's
a really interesting option I would I
would give it a [Applause]
[Applause]
seven like they are actually based on
ancient Roman ship designs very clearly
I mean they're a little bit short and
stubby so they may have to be like
liberians which would make sense for the
Imperial period they seem to have
combined the Liberian which is quite a
light ship with the kind of towers and
Siege engines that you get mounted onto
earlier much bigger warships like crinks
like these big five that they used to
use during the Punic Wars but it's a
really cool idea that they really did
their homework on what these ships are
supposed to look like it's just a really
weird feature that they have their masks
and sails still on the decks are cleared
for battle they do not have their masks
on them every every ship in a in a naval
battle in the ancient world moves on
rowing power there are no sailing
warships that doesn't happen this is
just like extra weight that destabilizes
and slows down the ship claim this city
for the glory of Rome historically it
doesn't make sense New Media had been
subjected centuries earlier but it's
very interesting to see a City built on
the sea like the defenses go right up to
the water and you actually see in this
scene they have a double wall so they
have an outer curtain which is right on
the on the on the surf and then they
have these passages leading to an inner
curtain as well so there's a layer
defense system going on which is really
you know historically quite common for
bigger cities and it's really effective
because of course it means if the enemy
overcomes the first line there's still a
second line you can fight for and you're
pushing them into this narrow confined
space where they're going to be
overlooked by your archers overlooked by
your warriors you love to see it and
also obviously building your wall up to
the shore um you can use the C as an
additional defense it's the mother of all
ditches and then the catapults start throwing
throwing
fireballs and I'm
like Ridley we talked about this
catapults are always throwing Fireballs
in these movies they historically didn't
they would never do that why would you
do that you're going to set your own
ships on fire this is a terrible idea
you throw basic rocks or shoot bolts at
the Defenders to keep their heads down
that's all they're good for
really okay stop oh no was that a
truche yeah that's a trebuchet I mean
again like maybe he had those left over
from Kingdom of Heaven or something or
from one of his other movies but like
this is a thousand years out of place
it's an invention of the medieval period
it the Romans did not know counterweight trichet
trichet stop
stop
it the Greeks invented tan artillery
which is a very basic form of Bolt
shooter they later developed Stone
Shooters the Romans elaborated on this
they developed these oners which are
these armed uh catapults they think no
one would notice or or that it wouldn't
attention so a lot of the equipment here
is is basically just a mishmash of
different Mediterranean like ancient
Mediterranean arms and armor and then
for some reason the hero your um Paul
mescal's uh character he's he's just
just wearing a cloth little weird little
leather thing they should have put him
in one of the armors that at least have
a historical reference to it like some
of that some of that male in the
background is really great I just put
him in that like that's that's so
he dies there
right he survives somehow he's fine he
just gets up it's cool but like he gets
thrown by a rhino I don't think you
shake that off wild animals were often a
feature of gladiatorial combat like they
would let wild animals into the arena
and have the the Gladiators enact hunts
essentially just try to hunt them and
kill them the exoticism is part of the
spectacle so if you could get weirder
animals animals that have been less
often seen in Rome that would be even
better there is evidence of of rhinos
making an appearance in the flavian
amphitheater but we don't really know if
they were ever made to fight humans I
mean most of the time they would
probably be put on display or made to
fight other
gladiatorial Naval Combat called now
Makia is a real thing most likely this
would have happened in separate venues
that were purpose built to allow them to
move the water in and out quickly and
where they'd have more space to kind of
kind of do this this reenactment I think
it's really interesting they actually
put that on the screen there's
absolutely no evidence that the Romans
would ever bring sharks into into play
in these Naval gladiatorial fights this
is not something that you can easily
just sort of Transport into into the
flavan amphitheater that's just not so
that the thumbs up thumbs down thing
it's like it's a big cliche for movies
we don't actually know the gestures that
were used so this is something that's
become an icon of movies about ancient
Rome but it has very little to do with
the actual evidence I would probably
give it a five there are some some some
things that you you really love to see
this on the screen like the namaka the
naval assault of a city like great stuff
but the way that he did it ends up being
really kind of sloppy and and and messy
and with mistakes that didn't need to be made
made
they attack before they can establish
their war camp and Supply their
soldiers so I have many opinions all of
them bad so they're supposed to have run
from their Camp into battle um by
running a mile across this plane now
many people question this for obvious
reasons and many people have questioned
it for centuries we don't really believe
that people could run that far in full
armor in the summer heat and I think
that's what they're kind of trying to
convey that the Persians were taken by
surprise because the Athenians were
advancing much faster and going straight
fight trying to convey is this idea that
the Athenians won the Battle of Marathon
through shock tactics the Athenians
didn't attack them while they were
disembarking they encamped across from
them in this plane and sat looking at
is this such a bizarre way of depicting
Greek equipment I mean we know very well
what kind of equipment they would have
carried because they kept on depicting
it on all of their art and especially
after this Victory they were very proud
of depicting themselves the way they
looked and depicting the Persians the
way they had been defeated they have
little boss Shields which are wrong the
swords are accurate that sword that the
mysticus is carrying looks like a very
good Greek sea Force but then they have
double-headed axes they have all sorts
of random weapons that have absolutely
no place in Classical Greece Greeks are
heavy Spearman double grip Shields long
Spears heavy armor the Persians seem to
be carrying the copes which is an
Egyptian sword the Egyptians were a big
part of the Persian navy so you might
have had some Egyptian Marines on board
may have carried these kinds of weapons
but I mean if we assume that this is a
force of Persians which the movie wants
you to believe then why are they
carrying Egyptian weapons and not
the ancient battle account actually does
say that they pursued the Persians to
their ships and they seiz some of the
ships so they have these really broad
gang planks um which I mean would have
been really nice if they had those I
think that would have been make things a
lot easier but as far as we know
embarking and disembarking from these
ships is actually quite difficult
because they're just sort of either
beached or lying just offshore while
this clip is working with a sort of a
kernel of what we're told about the
Battle of Marathon basically everything
you're seeing here is complete fantasy
so I would give it a to one thing I'll
give them the kind of sheer scale of the
violence happening in this battle is
something that the Greeks themselves
were already kind of wanting to convey
like they want us to know that this is a
this is a huge
thing R
now R now okay him slapping the lances
with his sword right not only is that
not historical like that was made up by
that guy right there for this scene like
he just thought that would be a cool
thing to do so he did it and that they
kept it in the movie and like you know
it works so well that you almost want
this to be a real thing and people
sometimes ask me like is that a real
thing is that something that ancient
like ancient or medieval commanders
would do it's like no Bernard Hill did
that and now it's in this like in
incredible depiction of something that
looks like premodern Warfare um but this
that's just that's just Cinema that's
just in this movie [Music]
so Calvary charges usually would have
been a lot slower than you see in movies
where in movies they spend a lot of time
Galloping they're kind of going in full
at full speed into the enemy and they do
that for a long time because it gives a
sense of speed and drama and it gets
that nice hoof beat sound if they have
to be tight they have to be close
together and so in order to maintain
that you got to make sure that you don't
go too fast too soon because the horses
will have different Paces so what they
would actually do is they would approach
slowly maybe they would break into a
trot at some point when they got near
the enemy they will break into a Canter
but if they even Gallop at all um that
meters some people will argue that the
effect of a cavalry charge is purely
psychological so you'd never actually
crash into a prepared enemy you would
always kind of be riding through an
enemy that's already broken and running
away so you're kind of just slapping
them in the back while they've already
been driven off but the other theory is
actually that that horses can be trained
to crash into a solid object this idea
that you see in this scene of them
throwing bodies um there's a um a
testimony by I think Winston Churchill
actually from umman where he describes
this happening that the Infantry was
literally just bodied by these horses
and that that's what what would happen
them I think the movie is trying to
Signal this idea is like we know that
it's going to be very difficult you know
we know not everyone believes that
Calvary can charge into a prep prepared
position and carry it um so we're kind
of trying to anticipate that by saying
look the these Orcs were already
wavering and so when they start wavering
and opening up gaps and lifting their
weapons that's when calary has the
them hey what [Applause]
[Applause]
the oants are basically just a sort of
souped up fantasy version of the war
elephant in ancient times when they were
first introduced they were very
effective because any army that hadn't
seen these animals before was going to
be absolutely terrified so what you
often see infantry do when C when when
elephants charge them is just make space
just make make canals make pathways
through the formation just get out of
the way and the elephants will prefer
not to be fighting you and rather just
be running on that's what the Romans
eventually figured out they should do
against carthaginian elephants for
instance in this case I think they're
too close together so it's going to be
really difficult to create those
channels um the other option is
essentially to overwhelm them with
missiles using light infantry using
archers and other kind of skirmish
to try and and uh and build a screen
effective he's throwing his Lance at the
at the rider who's controlling the the
olone which is I mean I guess it's a way
to try and disable them but the problem
that you're facing really isn't the fact
that there's a driver controlling the
elephant the problem is that you've got
an elephant coming at you and so really
what you want to do is get that animal
to either move past you harmlessly or or
turn away in terms of Cinema in terms of
emotion this is the best scene like this
is the best kind of Ancient Warfare
scene that you could possibly imagine
Return of the King is always going to be
awesome out of 10 if you wanted me to
put a number on this it's very difficult
to say because it's fantasy but like I'd
eight this this scene is portraying the
siege of carak that the Muslim army they
would often try to isolate um Crusader
Knights trying to get around them and
then sort of encircle them attack them
from all sides that seems to be fairly
accurate but at the same time I mean
they would do that in conjunction with
horse archers and other missile troops
that they would use to try and soften
that formation up first they should
absolutely be arrows flying everywhere
and most of these Frankish Knights
should probably be dead before they even
[Music]
combat it's also especially weird to see
that the the Frankish Knights decide to
split up I mean that's absolute Madness
I mean that's guaranteeing your own
defeat they should have stay stuck
together as close as they could they
should have made a strong column and
driven it straight into the Muslim Force
that's the only chance they have of of
getting out Al Al the calvalry tactics
of of of medieval heavy Cavalry like
medieval European Cavalry um are very
much based on the idea that they are a
heavy shock Force they are meant to
trample the enemy I feel like that the
you know really Scott clearly put a lot
of effort into training his Horsemen to
allow him to do this kind of maneuvering
and he wanted to show it on screen it
looks great uh but tactically it's it's
nonsense like they would never have
fought like this and it's it has
absolutely no chance of achieving [Music]
[Music] [Applause]
[Applause]
anything the advantage of a lance is
that it can be couched when you're when
you're charging um when you're when
you're using it on Horseback so you can
actually put that Lance somewhere under
your arm where it's stable where it has
where it's braced by the rest of your
body and by the horse so that you can
then Main maintain a direct line into
combat and put the full weight of your
horse and your person and your weapon
behind that point I think he should have
been overand like that gives you the
range give it a four this scene is a
nonsense but the the the movie tells the story
right normally in battles like these
when Roman infantry is fighting you'd
want to see them use their their
throwing Spears which they had to kind
of disrupt enemy formations and so in
theory you should want to see these two
lines exchanging these volleys of of
javelins before they actually get into
hand-to hand combat but we're told that
specifically at Philippi they didn't do
this it was really quite a battle of
butchers essentially they went straight
into close combat and just hacked at
each other with swords until there was
no one left [Applause]
standing you see them marching into
battle in these orderly blocks in these
orderly units um that is very much how a
Roman legion would Advance the problem
with this scene is that like on the
surface that looks great and I'm happy
with it but then it suddenly devolved
into this Hollywood mob brawl that is
not a realistic Battlefield those units
would try to maintain their formation as
long as possible and if you lose your
formation you run away you instantly
break you get the hell out of there
because you want to restore order before you
[Applause]
fight and the other thing that they do
that really annoys me these guys who are
squeezing their way to the back and then
the next rank comes forward and they're
literally holding on to the straps on
each other's equipment to try and make
sure that that formation maintains that
same order and that the guys are all
sort of sloting in where they're
supposed to be this is a really
unhistorical way to depict what a Roman
army would actually do which is not rank
rotation but line rotations what these
Roman armies were equipped to do was to
take the entire unit including his front
Rank and all the other ranks out of the
line and replace it with another unit
that was coming up from behind they
would have a line rotation system
usually in three lines that would take
turns bearing the brunt of the fighting
but within those lines within those
units the front rank had to remain the
front rank it was absolutely
instrumental to the functioning of an
ancient infantry formation I hold a
grudge against them for using that that
stupid whistle it bothers me so I'm
going to have to mark them down for it
but the equipment in this show is really
the best that you've seen Romans like
this this is really quite authentic for
the late Republic um the the the male
armor the simple helmets the the big
Shields that they're carrying so I guess
five it's a common tactic is to try and
find one position that um they're not
paying attention to or that hasn't been
reinforced to the same degree um
sneaking in there with a small Force um
Alexander the Great did it a few times
he will just offer rewards for the first
person to make it up a particularly
difficult slope or something like that
um in order to to overcome the defenses
I have no idea how you would be able to
shoot a bolt with a crossbow that would
dig so deep into a stone wall that you
could hang a man from it that seems
wild I'm I'm very impressed with that
crossbow I want that technology I'm
surprised they haven't used a ladder to
climb the wall instead doing this sort
by far the most common way for cities to
fall was through treachery so you'd
almost always either have someone sneak
in and open the gates or you'd have
someone on the inside open the gates for
you when you read ancient treatises like
an as tacticus the vast vast bulk of
that work is devoted to how do you keep
people from giving away the password
sewing through the crossbar of the gate
um how do you keep people from giving
sending signals to people outside you
know the besieging force so that that
kind of factor is much more important in
the defense of an ancient city than the
technicalities of what kind of weapons
you might use to defend it at least in
the minds of of ancient authors give it
a six he's infiltrating the wall in a
really bizarre way that doesn't make
sense but then fundamentally the idea of
opening up a gate from the inside so
that friendly forces can can approach
the city and enter like that's obviously
this scene depicts this the the siege of
shyang you also see this arms race
between attackers and defenders in terms
of Siege equipment that they they're
trying to use the Mongols tried to bring
up their original trebuchet which were
essentially Manpower um which have a
limited range to try and bring down the
Walls song Defenders realized that this
would uh make it make the defense a
short story so they dug a moat that was
wide enough that it was impossible to
push those trebus close enough to the
wall to actually do any damage as always
the ditch is not there so you can't
[Music]
any why are they on
fire why Marco Polo tells us uh that he
participated in this Siege and that he
actually explained the use of
counterweight catapults or counterweight
trebuchet to the to the Mongols um but
he seems to be inflating his own role in
that it was these these Iraqi Muslim
Engineers um that showed them how to
build a counterweight cat which or
counterweight trebuchet which works on
the power of gravity with a very large
counterweight in order to swing the beam
around the fulcrum and throw an object
far far uh a far greater distance than
older forms of of uh of Siege artillery
what they're arguing here that you need
to put on more weight to increase the
range that's exactly right I mean that
is how they work fundamentally you just
need to have um you need to have
engineered a structure that can take the
power of that sudden SW
um without you know losing control of
the beam and the and the [Music]
missile why would you do that the
Mongols had a real problem when they
were engaging fortified positions which
is that they specialized in Mountain
Warfare they could defeat anyone in the
open they had the arms to do that but
they struggled with you know Siege
assaults where you need a lot of
infantry to overcome fortifications but
in this particular fight scene you're
actually seeing uh song soldiers outside
of the walls they're caught in the open
so this is where the Mongol Advantage
would come into effect they should
absolutely remain on Horseback and fight
them on Horseback because at that point
scattered infantry is absolutely you
itself these are some of the earliest uh
gunpowder weapons in existence at this
point they don't really exist yet in
Europe um but they really are just this
they're essentially a tube on a stick so
they look quite bulky and it's difficult
to hold them and you kind of need a
second person to show up and and
actually ignite the the fuse I would
give this a three the battle of the the
siege of sang is a really important
moment in history and so it's nice that
there is some depiction of that my
favorite battle scene that I watched
today is the Battle of pelor fields from
low of the Rings not even necessarily
because that accurate it's just the
scene that really gets a rise out of me
I'm watching it now and I still get
goosebumps I just love it um there are
some times when you don't necessarily
need a scene to be accurate but it also
does hit a lot of notes it gets a lot of
things right so I really think that's
that's a golden combination if you like
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