0:04 No. What? Mumbling. No swearing.
0:07 Well, can't guarantee that.
0:11 Right. Welcome back to another edition
0:14 of the BIME podcast. Been a bit of a
0:17 long time in coming this one because
0:21 today I'm joined by for anyone who who
0:24 works closely with BIME or clients or
0:26 whatever probably doesn't need much of a
0:29 introduction but it's the uh the legend
0:32 that is Mark Kane otherwise known within
0:36 BIME as Yoda as he's he's a bit of a
0:38 fountain of knowledge you know and he
0:43 he's also our Manchester BIM manager So,
0:46 got Mark here today. Uh, I've done a bit
0:47 of an introduction for you, but I don't
0:49 know if you want to No, I mean, say
0:51 anything about yourself, pick yourself
0:54 up. No, no, no. To be honest with you, I
0:56 to mention about the fact why we knew
0:58 each other, you know, in in as much as
1:00 that, you know, probably boring people
1:01 to death with with all this. You're
1:02 throwing me under the bus now, I'm going
1:04 to throw under the bus. Yeah, mate. Um
1:06 so basically me me and Matt were
1:10 apprentices uh um duck work company um
1:14 in Harp a Manchester when we were 17 18
1:17 and uh yeah we were we dragged up um
1:19 doing duck work weren't we mate and uh
1:22 we certainly were. Yeah and anyway that
1:24 company went bump and we kind of
1:27 separated ways and about how many years
1:30 ago now? probably 12 years, 13 years,
1:32 something like that. We um we joined
1:35 forces again and uh yeah, never looked
1:36 back really, have we? Here we are today.
1:38 You know, who thought who thought back
1:41 then we'd be sat doing podcasts?
1:43 To be honest, you I didn't think I' I'd
1:45 ever stop using a drawing board. So, I'm
1:47 not really want to talk. So, there we
1:50 go. Yeah. So, today anyway, uh we're
1:53 we're going to just basically talk about
1:56 quite a large project we worked on.
1:58 Well, we completed it in 2019, so I
2:00 think it's safe enough now to talk about
2:02 it. And uh we're just going to talk
2:05 about some of the sort of pitfalls on
2:09 the project and reasons why sort of BIM
2:12 sort of was the tool that helped us to
2:14 deliver it so successfully. Yeah. So,
2:18 the project is Scalpel Tower in London,
2:22 uh, otherwise known as 52 Lime Street,
2:25 and it's in the the Bank District of
2:27 London, and it's quite an iconic
2:31 building. It's opposite the Gerkin. And
2:33 uh, I think I don't know why it was
2:35 called is it meant to look like a
2:37 scalpel blade or something? Is that why
2:40 it was scalpel? I can't always remember
2:41 why it was called. That's what it was,
2:43 was it? I think cuz it has got like this
2:45 weird kind of iconic also bit of a fancy
2:48 to like a blade at the top, isn't it? So
2:50 I think that was the idea of it. Yeah,
2:52 the scalpel. Yeah, I think there was
2:58 about 40 floors of office space. 44 and
3:01 then 47 up to 50 something. Yeah, there
3:03 was a few few floors of plant at the
3:06 top, but they were quite awkward because
3:09 the footprint went a lot smaller. M uh
3:12 but it was was very narrow and there was
3:13 a lot of steel work in there and
3:15 everything. So that was quite
3:17 complicated area. Then you had the
3:18 ground floor which was more like a
3:20 reception and I think there was a
3:22 loading bay within it and things like
3:25 that. And then we had three levels of
3:28 basement. Yeah. B3 the lowest basement
3:30 was was like concrete water tanks,
3:31 weren't it? Yeah. Sprinkler tanks. The
3:34 sprinkler tanks then main level up and
3:35 then another one up from that as well.
3:40 Yeah. B2 was the sort of the main plant
3:42 areas. Yeah. Where you had a lot of the
3:45 sort of switch gear and everything.
3:49 Yeah. Uh and then B1 was more like back
3:51 of house areas, weren't it? Yeah.
3:54 Showers and the cycle store, changing
3:56 areas, all that sort of stuff. And a
3:58 little bit of plant as well in there. Uh
4:00 but that's sort of summarizes the the
4:04 building. Uh I think the idea was uh
4:07 there was a a main client and his
4:09 intention was was to take a few of the
4:12 upper floors himself. Yeah. And then was
4:15 leasing the rest of the building out. So
4:17 again, it was one of these projects
4:19 where like like a lot of projects these
4:22 days where the the project had to be
4:24 finished on time because there was going
4:27 to be a lot of costs if the project
4:29 overran. Yeah. Well, it didn't it didn't
4:32 help that the guy who actually paid and
4:33 and owned the building was was like
4:36 rather the top one. Remember he had two
4:38 two top floors. He worked the penthouse,
4:39 didn't he? I think we built an atron for
4:41 him, didn't we? So there was an atron
4:43 that kind of Oh, I remember it was all
4:45 soundproofed walls around it and there
4:48 was plant above above his office. So it
4:50 was all on springs and everything spring
4:52 loaded. Yeah, I remember all that. Yeah.
4:54 Yeah. So anyway, what we was going to do
4:57 was just talk a little bit about some of
5:00 the sort like I don't know like the
5:02 problems we had to overcome. I think
5:04 some of them are fundamental problems
5:06 that you get in London all the time.
5:09 Like I think what you tend to get or
5:12 what I find is generally in London,
5:15 especially in the bank area. Uh the the
5:17 buildings are very tall, but the
5:19 footprints aren't necessarily small,
5:21 aren't they? As big as you would expect.
5:25 Uh and the reason being is obviously uh
5:27 land and that is a a premium in in
5:31 London. Yeah. So things tend to be a bit
5:33 smaller. Uh the other thing is they try
5:35 and utilize whatever space they have got
5:37 they try and utilize it. So there's not
5:40 a lot of outdoor space around. So I
5:42 think if memory serves I think it was
5:45 something existing like probably most
5:47 new construction near near the central
5:49 London that there's always a building
5:51 comes down first before something is up.
5:53 And a lot of the buildings, the shape of
5:55 them and the footprint, it's all
5:57 dictated by surrounding surrounding
5:59 buildings and and and roadways, you
6:02 know, it's um because of that, one of
6:05 the issues is is that externally of the
6:08 building there's not much storage area.
6:11 So what we found is there was as we were
6:13 doing coordination and everything and
6:15 when we were s visiting site we did
6:18 visit site quite regularly that a lot of
6:21 the space uh where things were should be
6:23 getting installed were being used as
6:25 storage areas. Yeah, you walk down the
6:28 corridors and the the corridors were a
6:31 bit I don't know just a bit bit fuller
6:33 than I thought on the floor level for
6:36 storage and trying to get scaffold
6:38 towers around them and different things.
6:39 didn't they have some of the office
6:41 space there as well if I remember right
6:44 towards the end um that you know oh the
6:46 site offices site offices and stuff were
6:48 there as well some of the area turned
6:50 into cuz like you say I think especially
6:53 for the site teams and that where they
6:55 want to store all the materials and
6:57 everything that all did end up moving
6:59 into the sort of basement the basement
7:00 areas yeah which again is just something
7:03 else to to avoid or something else to
7:05 work around yeah I think it all becomes
7:07 a programming issue doesn't it was areas
7:10 that we knew later on in the project
7:13 would be congested with materials or
7:16 whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So, it made it
7:17 probably more awkward for the guys on
7:21 site, but for us the it was it was stuff
7:23 worth knowing. Yeah. because it did
7:26 change a little bit of how you would
7:28 coordinate services, certain services
7:30 that you'd want to keep out of these
7:33 areas because like like the HV cables
7:36 cuz it's a continuous cable and you're
7:38 not stopping and starting with the
7:40 install of it, it's got to be done in
7:43 one hit. So you if if you know there's
7:45 an area that you can't get into, you've
7:48 got to avoid that. Yeah. So there's
7:50 things like that, I guess. M uh and like
7:52 I say and the the corridors I remember
7:55 walking around site and I was felt sorry
7:57 for some of the guys when you saw how
7:59 cluttered some of the corridors were.
8:02 Yeah. Uh but again that more of a I
8:04 guess more of a a site issue but then
8:07 going on to I just mentioned about the
8:10 HV cables. Don't know well I'm sure you
8:11 have got thoughts back because I
8:13 remember one of the problems it was it
8:15 was actually
8:18 usual thing it was diverse routing. Yep.
8:20 Um, and there was also fire protection,
8:22 weren't they? Which they went for
8:24 Chemwell, was it? Was that the product
8:26 they went for? It was. It was I think it
8:27 started off they were going to go for
8:31 that uh jaw steel. Yeah. But I remember
8:34 it was at the slab and it wasn't and it
8:36 was it was up and down and and if I
8:37 recall, was it was it because of the
8:40 weight of the drum at one point and the
8:42 continuous cable was? Yeah, I remember
8:45 sitting in meetings with this. So HV
8:47 cable, you you tend to try and get in as
8:50 the highest service. You tend to fix it
8:51 to the slab and then you put a
8:54 three-sided box around it and yeah to
8:57 protect it and protect it uh from like
9:00 fire or anything else. Uh but in this
9:03 instance, we couldn't put it as the
9:05 highest service because what you tend to
9:08 do is you put it in and then you forget
9:11 about it. But like I said earlier, you
9:14 have to run the HV cable from start to
9:16 finish. And because the start of it was
9:18 in the basement and the finish of it was
9:22 going to be up at sort of level 40 or 44
9:24 or whatever it was, it had to be a
9:26 continuous c well it was tri cables,
9:28 wasn't it? That's right. So it had to be
9:31 the these three cables going diverse
9:33 routes had to get up to that level and
9:35 it had to go in one hit. So as soon as
9:37 they started putting the cable in, they
9:39 had to go all the way. Otherwise, they
9:41 had to have it on a drum somewhere
9:43 stored. And because the cable was that
9:45 heavy, yeah, they couldn't store it,
9:46 could when they did the count, they had
9:49 nowhere to store it because the slabs at
9:51 like ground floor and first or whatever
9:53 could not physically take the weight of
9:56 the coils. Yeah. Yeah. Of cable. So
9:58 because there was nowhere to store the
10:02 cable, they said the HV cable, as
10:04 unusual as it might be, has to go in
10:06 last. So we had to come up with a way.
10:08 That was a way and and getting it in as
10:10 the lowest service, which is quite
10:13 unusual. Well, it was again it was it
10:16 was something that we were, you know,
10:17 part of the way through the
10:19 coordination, certainly in the basement
10:21 areas I was doing and all of a sudden
10:22 then it was like, well, actually, no,
10:24 this thing can't be tucked up against
10:27 the set and out of the way. It's got to
10:29 then come down and then it's access
10:31 after it's the I think was it the
10:33 three-sided chemole that we went for
10:35 that was I think it had to be foursided.
10:37 No, I'm saying but they only installed
10:39 the top and the sides, left the bottom
10:41 out, cable went up and then obviously
10:43 they they finished the bottom. But yeah,
10:45 it was the other thing I remember as
10:47 well was because normally like again if
10:49 it's up against the sopet if all the ser
10:51 if there's a fire or anything below and
10:53 the services all collapse, it's at the
10:56 slab and it's safe. But when it says the
10:59 lowest service, it wasn't just making
11:02 the Chemwell secure that the Chemwell
11:04 was the fire protected box. wasn't just
11:06 making that so that that wouldn't fall
11:08 down under fire conditions. It was
11:10 making sure it could take the weight,
11:12 everything collapsed and landed on top
11:14 of it. Yeah. So, we ended up I remember
11:16 there was like a bit of a subframe that
11:18 went above the top of it. So, if
11:20 anything fell, it landed on top of the
11:22 subframe rather than on top of the HV
11:24 cables. Yeah. So, that was that was a
11:27 big issue on the project. So, but I
11:29 think probably enough about that now
11:31 because people be bored. I was nearly
11:35 swore then. So I'll leave that for you.
11:39 So uh the other thing I mean I know some
11:41 of that was a bane your life on that
11:44 project was the slab loadings. Yeah. So
11:47 um basically what it was I was I was
11:49 nearing the not the end but I I was
11:51 nearing to a point where you know
11:54 majority service are in we we settled on
11:58 you know the lay this B2 basement and
12:01 the main water plant room which had all
12:03 the all the major um chilled water,
12:07 heating pumps, all the domestic plant um
12:09 you know uh and that pipe was big. I
12:13 mean water was like 250 diameter w some
12:16 of the headers um the plate exchanges
12:17 were something like 2 and a half meters
12:18 tall. I forget the weight of them, but
12:22 they were they were colossal things. And
12:24 basically, you know, um we were being
12:27 told we we did um pump skids and the
12:29 plate plate exchanger skids, but pretty
12:31 much everything else was traditionally
12:35 installed from the set above. And um out
12:36 of the blue towards the end of of
12:41 modeling um uh somebody raised a
12:43 question about has anybody checked that
12:45 the I remember being sat
12:47 raised. I bet you were sat there saying,
12:48 "I've got to go back and tell Kane all
12:51 this one. He said he's just gonna he's
12:53 going to lose his head." But um yeah, so
12:55 basically what what what they realized
12:58 is that the structural engineer had um
13:00 basically calculated the floor load of
13:03 the floor above just to take what was
13:04 there and basically it was just toilets
13:06 for I think the the cycle store or
13:07 something like that. It was the shower
13:10 room shower room something like that. So
13:13 they they realized quite late on that in
13:15 actual fact that slab above the plant
13:16 room couldn't take this building
13:18 services that we thought were being
13:21 suspended off it. And um right at the
13:24 end we got told then that the the whole
13:26 of the plant room services had to be had
13:29 to be basically um supported off
13:32 pedestals and framework and steel and
13:34 goalpost and everything. And it was yeah
13:38 it was um yeah it to be honest with you
13:40 I remember I remember at the time it was
13:42 like you you thought that it was just
13:44 going to be you know an absolute trauma
13:48 but to be fair because um I think it was
13:51 it was the I decided early on that I was
13:53 going to leave a decent zone for
13:55 drainage because I think we had
13:57 sprinklers the sprinkler mains are high
13:58 level and a lot of drainage what have
14:00 you and we had a lot of crossovers and
14:03 and at the time more more lot than than
14:05 than judgment. Don't say that. I know.
14:09 Yeah. Um we I left quite quite a um a
14:11 decent zone at the top. So don't ask me
14:14 how, but we managed to shoe on in
14:16 without too much uh alteration to the
14:19 MEP services is that like say all that
14:21 steel work and goalpost, but it was uh
14:23 you almost created like a steel
14:26 framework box, didn't you? Yeah. That
14:28 fitted in the plant room first and then
14:30 all the services fitted within that
14:33 fitted on on that. Yeah. But um yeah,
14:34 there was a lot lot of gear in them
14:36 plant rooms. Hell of a lot. Yeah. And
14:38 then talking about the plant rooms and
14:41 another another thing that we we did do
14:46 quite a bit of uh was the uh the FMA the
14:48 prefabrication. Yeah. So it was mainly
14:50 just plant, wasn't it? We didn't do much
14:53 on distribution for risers. Yeah. It was
14:54 the Yeah, it was the risers were with
14:57 were DFA, but the um Yeah. in the plant
15:00 rooms. It was it was mainly pump skids
15:03 and the plate exchanger skids. Um but
15:05 again when we were saying there about
15:07 the plate exchanges being like 2 and a
15:08 half meters and they they weighed an
15:11 absolute ton. Again it was logistics of
15:14 how them things move through from where
15:16 they get lowered lowered into the
15:18 basement. You know I think I think we
15:21 had um uh forget the technical term for
15:23 it but you the wall down plan. So there
15:24 was there was certain walls that
15:26 couldn't get built and it's like I say
15:28 it's logistics of where they get dropped
15:31 down and then we had restrictions then
15:33 on sizes of of frames. I think if I
15:35 remember rightly as well there was like
15:37 a location in the ground floor where
15:39 there was going to be an opening left in
15:42 the slab to drop down into B1. Yeah. But
15:44 it wasn't directly above the hole down
15:49 to B2. So you'd have to drop it down
15:53 to the hole that dropped down to
15:55 get into the plant room. So there was
15:57 quite a bit of planning to be done on
15:59 that with head heights and everything
16:00 else. Yeah. And that was the other
16:02 thing, wasn't it? Is is because your
16:04 skids virtually going last as it were
16:06 because you know you want to be stalling
16:07 all your high level service. You don't
16:10 want PL skids but you don't want to.
16:13 So you know again that all has to come
16:15 into play about you know you've got to
16:16 think about how these things get get
16:18 skidded in after all the high level
16:20 service have gone in and have you you
16:23 know got the the logistic path for for
16:25 doing that and you also have to look at
16:27 which I know it's going to sound obvious
16:28 when I say this but when when you're in
16:31 the mindset of modeling something in 3D
16:33 and you're putting in its final position
16:35 when you've got it on that skid frame
16:38 it's sat on the floor when you're
16:39 maneuvering it to get it into position
16:41 it's going to be on some sort of wheels.
16:42 Yeah. So, it's going to put an extra
16:46 maybe 6 in or 8 in on the height of it.
16:48 Correct. So, so that that's again, but
16:49 when you're doing all this this skid
16:51 work, it's it that that's what you do
16:53 have to consider is is that you know the
16:55 skids will ra up raise up so far and
16:56 then you can have jacking points.
16:59 Sometimes you can have um AVMs as well.
17:01 So again, you have to think about all
17:05 these things about, you know,
17:07 what space and you need to actually move
17:09 this thing isn't necessarily it's it's
17:11 finished level, you know, when it is
17:13 dropped into position. Um, but yeah, no,
17:15 it is you just got to think about
17:17 everything involved, don't you? And it's
17:20 like it was just jumping onto the rises
17:22 here cuz that was again we did quite a
17:25 bit of DFMA on that and I remember one
17:27 of the things early doors was it was
17:30 anchored out the basement and then
17:32 everything went upwards. So any expansion
17:33 expansion
17:36 it the riser grew as it went up. Yeah.
17:39 So when you when you go up a couple of
17:41 floors, you're only talking millimeters.
17:44 But when you're going up 10 15 floors,
17:48 it starts coming into it can be like 50
17:51 100 mil or whatever the the sort of uh
17:54 distance when it starts to expand. And I
17:57 remember us having to actually
18:00 work out well on this like one of the
18:03 upper floors when the the building's
18:06 operational and everything expands the
18:09 branches are going to move by say 100
18:11 mil. So I think we actually physically
18:14 moved the the riser module up 100 mil
18:16 and reran the clash dissections because
18:18 we said when it's in operation that's
18:20 where the branch is going to be. It's
18:23 not going to be where it is now in a in
18:27 a sort of I think I think we had to did
18:28 we have to do some sort of cow call
18:30 somebody did some sort of cow with the
18:31 cold drawer as well in the chilled.
18:34 Yeah. So so your heating's expansion but
18:37 your chilled is is contraction is it you
18:39 know so I I know they said they don't
18:41 normally worry about chilled but they
18:43 said because it was
18:45 such a high building. I'm I'm sure that
18:48 the diameter of the pipe as well because
18:51 it was such large pipe work. Um but
18:52 while we're on the subject of the rise,
18:54 obviously, you know, we're about the the
18:56 anchor point in the the basement. Yeah,
18:59 it was a bit of a faux pile there. It
19:02 was. Yeah. So, if I remember right, we
19:04 came down. It wasn't so much the anchor,
19:05 it was the dirt pocket at the bottom. It
19:06 was a dirt pocket. There was a problem.
19:08 So, so there there was a branch. There
19:10 was a dirt pocket with the IV and
19:12 everything else. Um I think possibly,
19:16 you know, 50 mil. um stab off with an IV
19:19 a drain to so basically what what they
19:21 said was well what we'll do we'll flange
19:23 all that we'll have a false piece of
19:26 pipe a steel pipe down to the the actual
19:28 basement um floor level and we'll use
19:29 that as as an anchor point then for the
19:33 expansion of the riser and then um again
19:35 some something that that we didn't
19:37 consider um was the actual valves
19:40 involved once it and they realized that
19:42 the forces involved on the the this
19:45 valve at the dirt pocket basically
19:46 crushed the valve. So then there was
19:48 another secondary caner lever fair
19:51 wanted back to the shaft wall to
19:53 actually take take some of that strain
19:55 off. So yeah, that that was um again
19:57 that that was another another steep
20:00 learning on that one. Yeah. Um the other
20:03 thing I remember as well again like what
20:06 we were saying about with the footprint
20:09 being fairly small you had there was so
20:11 much plant down in them basement but
20:14 because the footprint wasn't massive I
20:17 remember like the distribution corridors
20:19 like it's a basement so there isn't a
20:20 ceiling in there but if you imagine a
20:24 ceiling at maybe 2.4 4 m above that
20:26 level up to the slab. You had about two
20:28 two and a half meters to get everything
20:30 in. But what it meant was your corridors
20:34 were fairly fairly narrow but very tall
20:37 the space. So the logistics of getting
20:38 all the services in and being
20:41 maintainable afterwards was a bit of a
20:42 nightmare, weren't it? Because Yeah.
20:45 Because again, you've you've got to
20:47 think about, you know, first of all,
20:48 what services do you want at the top
20:50 that's going to have limited limited
20:52 access? But the funny thing is is that
20:54 nine times out of 10, one of your top
20:55 services is your drainage. And then
20:57 you've got to consider about the the rod
21:00 eye points for that. And I remember we
21:05 we were extending um kind of um uh on
21:07 the wise with with with the rodin eyes.
21:09 We were extending that rod eye to a
21:11 clean spot, weren't we? Where you can
21:14 actually get up to and actually rod rod
21:16 through. So it wouldn't necessarily be
21:18 on top of the the the last wire
21:20 connection. it'd actually be where you
21:22 can actually get get up to it. Um, you
21:25 know, so yeah, and it was a case of
21:28 layering from the top and like say going
21:30 back to to the um to the HV with the
21:32 Chemwell that that that chucked a quite
21:34 quite a big span in the works toward
21:36 towards the where all of a sudden that
21:37 had to come down and you had to consider
21:39 that for the access. But and the other
21:41 thing I remember with the corridors was
21:43 uh we ended up using trimble field
21:46 points. Yes. Because we we realized
21:48 there was that many
21:50 different sprinkler systems at the top.
21:52 Yeah. There was almost a blanket of
21:54 sprinklers down the corridor and they
21:56 were like main distribution pipes. So
21:59 they were quite big and we said once
22:02 them pipes go up, no one's getting back
22:04 to that slab again to drill it. Yeah. So
22:07 it's all the as as the trades come lower
22:10 and lower in that corridor, it's the
22:11 access to the slab just gets more
22:13 restrict. So the idea then was was using
22:16 trimble field point pre-drill all the
22:18 slab and get all the the anchors already
22:20 installed and a bit of rod or whatever.
22:21 They were putting all the rod down,
22:23 weren't they? Which the rod was there
22:24 then for all the other trays to to
22:28 connect onto. Um yeah, so that was I
22:30 mean it was a good solution for what
22:32 could have been an absolute nightmare.
22:34 Uh yeah, what what I did think was good
22:37 on this particular project, especially
22:41 for us, was that they actually had
22:44 somebody doing like a stage five
22:47 uh architectural model. So they were
22:50 putting all the like you say lintils in.
22:52 They were all getting modeled in. Even
22:55 every single hole we requested got
22:57 modeled in. So there was a hole there.
22:59 Yeah. So when we could run a clash
23:02 detection Yeah. It was if there was a a
23:03 pipe going through a wall, it wouldn't
23:05 come up as a clash because there's a
23:07 hole there and it goes through the hole.
23:08 A lot of the times when we were now, we
23:10 never get that detail of architectural
23:13 model. So, you run a clash dissection
23:14 and it'll come up and say your pipes
23:16 clashing with your P with the wall and
23:18 blah blah blah. You have to basically
23:20 just discount them because, you know,
23:22 the hole's not there to be formed. And
23:24 all that we can do going forward is is
23:26 believe it or not is, you know, class
23:28 detection against our own builder's work sleeves.
23:29 sleeves.
23:31 um you know and and that's but it was a
23:33 great way of seeing if a builder's work
23:34 opening had been missed. Yeah. Yeah.
23:37 Because if it had been missed it come up
23:39 as a clash because it's there's no hole
23:42 there. So it was a it was a very quick
23:44 way of running a quick clash detection
23:46 and seeing whether uh any holes have
23:48 been missed. But like I say, I think
23:50 it's few and far between. we get apart
23:54 from the the main structural concrete
23:56 like your shear walls and that people
23:59 tend to model in the the openings in
24:01 them but when it comes down to block
24:04 work and and uh studing it's very rare
24:08 that we we get I mean the architectural
24:09 models yeah and the thing is you know
24:11 you touched on there with drywall
24:13 possible walls in as much as that you
24:15 know we have to account for king stud
24:17 arrangements that aren't there for us to
24:20 physically miss sometimes and um you know
24:22 know
24:24 having that work interface with
24:26 architects with your fire stopping
24:29 people with your fire damper people with
24:31 you know British gypsum um and
24:33 everything else you know there's a lot
24:36 of individual elements there that need
24:38 bring together and you know not to blow
24:40 our trumpet but we're kind of like the
24:42 interface to to bring those people in
24:44 and and you know um yeah there's a lot
24:47 of contracts now where um from a builds
24:48 point of view you know a lot of the
24:50 rules have to be set out really early
24:54 and you know um I I'll completely admit
24:57 that that years ago I'm sure you'd agree
24:58 that the bills were almost went in at
25:01 the end to a point because we've seen
25:03 that as well what's the point in putting
25:05 bills work when all the MEPs got to go
25:06 to construction all your holes going to
25:08 change anyway and everything else
25:10 whereas nowadays you know one of the
25:12 first things that we actually establish
25:14 and even model in is the builders work
25:16 it's kind of it's almost dictating the
25:18 coordination now isn't it yeah Um the
25:21 the thing being is though there's still
25:23 there's still differences out there
25:26 which you know isn't worrying but it's
25:28 just a fact of life that you know people
25:30 can interpret interpret different rules
25:33 and regs but you know ultimately um you
25:35 know it's one of them things now on any
25:39 project that you know I I I kind of um
25:41 you know push the client into into
25:44 setting out them rules so that you know
25:46 again it's getting people on board that
25:48 wouldn't normally be on board at early
25:49 stage in the job, but it's very
25:51 important that they are and as as I just
25:52 said before, it's it's your your fire
25:54 damper people, it's your fire stopping
25:56 people, it's your walling contractor
25:58 with British Gypson and it's it's
26:01 bringing all them people to say right
26:03 what is what rules are working to
26:05 because you have deflection zones as
26:08 well, don't we, in drywalls where you
26:11 know there's there's the um building
26:13 tolerance, there's settling of buildings,
26:15 buildings,
26:17 um you know there's expansion um during
26:20 fire where you know something needs to
26:22 be allowed for you know for for that as
26:24 as well and you know there's a lot of
26:26 moving parts that I I don't completely
26:29 understand but you know I know what
26:30 effect it has on building services.
26:32 Yeah. Well, I know like if a slab
26:36 deflects by 25 mil, for example, I think
26:38 you have to allow some of the buildup of
26:41 a a plaster board wall, you have to
26:45 allow about 200 250 mil for it to be
26:48 able to compensate for that 25 mil
26:50 within it without it then deflecting
26:52 onto the actual Yeah. builder's work
26:55 opening. Yeah. I mean we we we've we've
26:57 had all sorts we over the past few years
27:00 and say fire damper holes obviously that
27:02 they have to be being their own own uh
27:05 separate holes but separation of holes
27:07 should we say between services or the
27:09 fire dampers we've had everything from
27:13 100 mil to 200 mil to 300 mil you know
27:15 there's a lot of of difference out there
27:18 and um you know it's it's pinning
27:20 someone down to say right you know what
27:22 are them rules and to be honest with you
27:25 they need to casting concrete because
27:27 you know there's quite a lot of jobs
27:28 where even when you've gone to that
27:32 diligence of of actually um you know uh
27:35 producing those rules you get you know
27:37 somebody comes on board a new walling
27:39 contractor or a new rag change or
27:42 something like that and and those kind
27:43 of things they the amount of times even
27:45 nowadays that you know the amount of
27:47 change that we have to go through
27:48 because of I know this one I know this
27:51 one you'll like though is that sometimes
27:53 there's that many different rules
27:55 You can't achieve everything. Exactly.
27:57 And somebody will come up with your
28:00 favorite saying, engineers judgment. Oh,
28:02 it's just it frightens me. It frightens
28:05 me when when when them words get used
28:07 all of a sudden it's it's it's you know,
28:09 with all due respect, you're not going
28:12 to It's like who's the engineer and why
28:14 why is their judgment?
28:16 Yeah. And and acceptable. It's just and
28:18 then you find out further down the road that
28:20 that
28:22 Exactly. Oh, we've had plenty of jobs
28:24 where the the easy get out is the engine
28:26 engineering judgment and and I I've
28:29 said, you know, that unfortunately I'm
28:31 I'm telling you now, it will not happen
28:33 because you're asking for somebody to
28:34 basically put their name on a piece of
28:37 paper to say, "Yeah, that wall in that
28:38 circumstance will stop a fire." And I'm
28:40 sorry, in this day and age now, that's
28:41 that's just not acceptable. It's been
28:44 tested. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I remember
28:46 with one of our clients, I won't name
28:47 it. It was a good thing actually, but
28:49 I'm still not going to name. They they
28:51 give me the opportunity to sit down in
28:54 front of their sort of buying department
28:56 and explain to them why we need what we
28:59 need and when we need it. Yeah. And they
29:01 we would say just about say a pump for
29:04 example and I was trying to explain to
29:06 them why we needed that information to
29:09 be accurate. And I I said to him I said
29:11 just just imagine we're installing it. I
29:13 said just think of it that way. I said
29:15 because it I said we are in a virtual
29:18 world installing it. I said, "So, if you
29:20 had somebody on site going to install
29:22 that pump, I said, "Could you tell him
29:24 it's one of three?" Yeah. One of three
29:26 manufacturers we're going to go with.
29:27 Said, "He wouldn't be able to install
29:30 it. He needs to know the exact pump that
29:32 he's installing." I said, "And we need
29:35 to know the exact pump that we're
29:37 modeling and putting in." I said,
29:39 "Because otherwise, it's not going to
29:41 work. And when it comes to site, it's
29:43 not going to fit." Especially around,
29:46 you know, um, DMFA areas of work. I
29:48 mean, you know,
29:50 it's either accurate or or it's wrong.
29:52 There's no there's no tolerance. There's
29:53 no in between. No, it's either right or
29:55 it's not going to going to work when
29:57 it's put together, you know, and uh
29:59 yeah. No, there's a lot of moving parts.
30:00 Like I say, there's there's a lot of
30:02 things that
30:05 we I wish, you know, would be sorted out
30:07 early, you know, CDP, Elmer's work, you
30:09 know, at Sprinkler Designs and things
30:12 like even um you know, what we tend to
30:15 do, as you know, is is that we if if
30:17 we're coordinating service and all be,
30:19 you know, um coordination designer, the
30:21 sprinklers isn't necessarily in in our
30:23 scope, we still have to allow for that.
30:25 So invariably we will always allow mains
30:29 and and such like and and um systems of
30:31 how branches can come off. Again, it's
30:32 one of them elements of work that seems
30:35 to be brought on board very late in
30:38 contracts that then, you know, we have
30:40 to either work around or, you know, cuz
30:42 all due respect, we're not sprinkler
30:43 experts, you know, that's the reason why
30:45 these guys are brought on board because,
30:47 you know, they got the expertise and and
30:50 and such like and again just just all
30:52 the engagement that Yeah. You know, so
30:55 if we if I was to wind this up now and I
30:58 said to you just to finish off, what is
31:00 as a as somebody who coordinates
31:03 building services, creates the 3D
31:06 virtual models, what is your three
31:11 biggest bug bears after three biggest is
31:12 builder's work rules getting set in
31:15 concrete early days, um procurement
31:19 equipment and even simple things like
31:22 you know the valving with the databases
31:24 and the the insulation, the materials
31:26 and everything else is that everything
31:30 is set early days and in in basically as
31:34 as as robust position as it as it can be
31:36 and then further on down the road like I
31:38 say there's less change you know there's
31:42 less waste basically time and money um
31:45 you know all because I mean you I
31:48 understand you know if if if you need a
31:50 pump set you know a year down the road
31:52 then we we start work. That's the
31:55 mindset. It's I don't need to sort that
31:56 because I don't need it yet. And it's
31:59 like, yeah, but we need it because
32:00 you're asking us to coordinate, you
32:03 know. Um, so yeah. So yeah, that's that
32:06 that's the big things at the minute. Um.
32:08 Right. Well, thank you very much for
32:10 that. I think it's been a long time
32:12 coming, has it? Yeah. Hope you've give a
32:14 few people watching a bit of an insight
32:19 into the sort of trials and tribulations
32:20 that face you every day. I don't think
32:22 there's too many bleeps, is he, mate? I
32:24 don't think there was any actually. Just one.
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