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Protestia Tonight: Hard Forgiveness

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This content critiques the practice of "hard shepherding" within some churches, arguing it misinterprets biblical principles of church authority, discipline, and forgiveness, leading to authoritarianism and abuse.

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We've come to the point after about five

years, almost 5 years of slander,

misrepresentation, false witness, lies,

um, and abuse. We've been abused. A

5year history of abuse of us, lies, and

slander. This is a man who's abused us,

lied about us, slandered, uh, slandered

us for years. He readily admits, "Yeah,

I did. I lied." Has abused us, lied

about, slandered by this man, lied about

This is slander. This is lies. He lied

about us. Tim has lied about us.

slandered us. That is an outright

bald-faced lie. A long period of time of

slander, lies. Tim, you are lying. You

lied to us. The misrepresentation and

the lie, abuse, lies, misrepresentation.

He lied through his teeth. He lied

through his teeth. He lies through his

teeth. He lied about it. A very long

history of sin, lies, slander. You have

lied, misrepresented. All these lies.

You're an abuser. You've sinned. You've

lied for years. Tim, you've sinned for

years. Called and lied. We're people you

victimized and sinned against and lied

about for years. We've been abused for

five years. Lied about for five years.

You've lied and continued to lie.

Fiveyear history of abuse. A five year

history of abuse. Lies. Slander. Lies.

Misrepresentation. Slander. Fears of

abuse and lies and misrepresentation.

You lied to your listeners last night.

Threw your teeth to your listeners. You

abused them. You disrespected them. You

lied. You lied to your listeners last

night. You

lies. The slander and misrepresentation,

misrepresentation, lies, his lies, his [Music]

misrepresentation. You don't know why

you're laughing. I'm talking about this

is my convention. What is happening to

it? You know why you do it? You don't do

it because you get paid well. You don't

do it because men love you. You do it

because you love men and because more

than that, you want to honor God. This

Tonight. Hello. And you are watching or

listening to Protestia Tonight for

Wednesday the 4th of June 2025. This is

the program that we hope will be

glorifying to God, convicting sinners,

and edifying to the saints a program

with sincere questions and biblical

answers. Thank you for tuning in. If you

are not already, we would encourage you

to join our wonderful and intrepid

patreon.com/protestia. 5.95 a month will

get you ad free browsing, access to all

Protestia podcast and video content,

other goodies like the PMIC catechism is

free for insider supporters. uh we would

consider that uh that a good a good

thing, something that you can uh get for

free if you are supporting this ministry

on a financial level. Um this program we

are going to be discussing the

particulars of um we're still going to

we're going to be discussing hard

shephering still and we're going to be

discussing this in the context of church

discipline in context of church

authority. We're going to be talking

about the nature of

forgiveness. And uh a lot of the folks

when when we've been talking about this

for a couple weeks now in the context of

online elders and and pastors and and

other guys that produce content online

demanding to, you know, speak to the

elders of your church. anytime that you

do something online they disagree with,

uh, they they immediately claim it's

slander and it's vile and it's all of

these these, you know, porative things,

usually with no attempts to

actually demonstrate that logically,

biblically. They just assume that uh

that you're going to accept that as true

because of their superior intellect and

their and their title and their elder

status. And they they believe that in

the same way that many of them and we're

going to discuss this, many of them uh

lord their authority over their churches

rather than shepherd their churches as

servant leaders, they seem to think they

can do that on the internet as well. And

we're going to we're going to discuss a

pretty obvious example, I think.

hopefully not to dig too much into the

past, but the truth is that a lot

of a lot of evangelical churches of the

formerly Baptist variety,

non-denominational churches, you know,

churches that would be autonomous and

not under some sort of a presbyetry or

um a more formal denomination have um

and and and and JD Hall has discussed

this, I think, really well and in in

good detail.

over at his Substack at Insight to In

insight to Insight

um discussed this uh this this

phenomenon of churches returning and and

returning to Puritan biblical fidelity

in a lot of ways and um churches that

have moved towards a a more Calvinist

otteriology have as they have brought in

um the doctrines of grace, Calvinist

otteriology ology into um Baptist

churches. For instance, they've also

brought in uh various forms of elder

rule polity versus congregational polity

which is the Baptist tradition. And

there have been I mean books by uh

Alexander Stra about biblical eldership

and things like this that have that have

encouraged this trend.

um many of the the churches that we

would uh you know more or less agree

with their doctrine almost 100% still

practice some sort of version of an

elder rule uh polity and a lot of

churches are they're in varying um

varying places of this spectrum if you

went all the way from a a much more

democratic congregational form of

governance which has been the Baptist

tradition all the way to a a full kind

of an elder rule almost a magist

isterial elder

rule. Um, autonomous churches,

non-denominational churches, churches of

different denominational stripes

potentially are all somewhere on this

spectrum. If they're not if they're not

episcopal in their church government uh

format, they're all um somewhere on the

spectrum between congregational

governance and full elder rule. Uh, and

it just so happens that as

this as this uh more Presbyterian, more

reformed um sotiology made its way into

the Southern Baptist Convention, made

its way into non-denominational

churches, other Baptist churches. Uh it

also coincided with the rise of church

growth methodology, the megaurch

phenomenon, the vision caster

phenomenon, the the idea that uh a

church could be, you know, basically

live or die off of the the

charismatic nature uh or the charismatic

ability of a a man of God, a vision

caster at the top of this, which uh is

also a form of I you're going to hate,

you know, some of some of you who are

Elder rule fans are going to uh not like

that I said this, but every mega church

you ever come across is some version of

elder rule polity. It might just be rule

by one elder, but it's elder rule

polity. Congregation is not the final

ecclesiastical authority as I'm going to

argue the Bible insists.

uh before we get into this and because

you know we I I we went pretty hard and

we're not going to let this go because I

think this is really potentially harmful

to churches and much bigger of a risk

than people think that it is. Uh we went

pretty pretty hard against the demand uh

for anonymous um social media users to

be doxed and that demand by um Dr. uh

James White over at Apologia. We're

going to be using Apologia as the

example for what we're going to be

discussing here. Um, and and hopefully

you're going to uh be able to tell why.

I'm not saying that every church that

does an elder rule polity that practices

elder rule polity is in this category. I

think that Apologia is an extreme almost

uh well I wouldn't say even almost like

like you know by the definition cultlike

example of what this this the the

extreme version of elder rule that we

might call hard shephering. Um they are

a textbook example of this and we're

going to we're going to walk through and

explain that. Uh but before we get into

that, why why any of that matters really

is because the reason that we're having

this debate, the reason that we're

having this conflict, the reason we're

having this fight is because the church,

the bride of Christ, the people of God

are that important. But if you don't

know the gospel, if you are not uh saved

by faith in Jesus Christ and his uh

life, death, burial, resurrection on the

cross, uh none of this means anything to

you. uh you be you'd be wondering like

who cares? Let them have their own

little thing over there. What what

difference does it make? What difference

does it make what a church does or how

your worship happens or how you operate

uh your local church? And you'd be

right. But for Christians, for those of

us who are believers, who are who are

saved by the power of Jesus, who place

our faith, hope, and trust in him for

salvation, this this stuff is is

important. Is is it as important as the

gospel proper? No. But we we talk about

secondary issues, tertiary issues and we

talk about trends that uh you know

errors that if given hold, errors that

are off by two three degrees but if

given enough time and the wrong people

in the wrong places can manifest in

really serious problems. Uh if you do

not know what the gospel is, it's this

the word gospel means good news. It is

the answer to the bad news which is that

you and I and um everybody born uh other

than Christ himself are born into sin.

We are born rebels against God

inheriting a sin nature. Um and because

of that sin nature, we're condemned to a

a Christless eternity, an eternity apart

from God in hell. And yet God so loved

the world so much. And and by the way,

you know, if you you examine yourself

really honestly, you see it. You know,

you know that you sin. You know that you

sin. You know that there is um no amount

of good works you can do to cover up

that sin. Uh to uh reconcile yourself to

God. I think if you if if you're honest,

and I would argue that that honesty

really um comes from God opening your

eyes, but we we'll we'll chase that

rabbit later. Uh the truth is that if

you place your hope and trust in Jesus

Christ for your salvation, repent of

your sins, uh turn from your wicked ways

and and trust in the sacrificial death

of Christ on the cross, you salvation is

a free gift. Uh the Bible teaches that

Jesus lived a perfect life, earned a

righteousness uh on our behalf we had no

ability to earn and then because of his

love for us p died in our place on the

cross. Jesus was uh um crucified uh as a

payment for sin that then we we inherit

that righteousness when we place our our

our trust in him and our faith in his

sacrifice for salvation. God sees us as

righteous and um and we are we we are no

longer held responsible for our sins

because Jesus paid the price to the

father that we were supposed to pay.

Jesus died on that cross. He was buried

on the third day. He raised from the

dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. Uh

conquering death, proving that his

sacrifice was accepted as payment for

sin. Um ascended to heaven, now sits at

the right hand of the father and

intercedes on behalf of his people. It

is for the cause of Christ. It is for uh

love for him and for the church that we

do this kind of work. It's not

necessarily fun work. It's not things we

we we don't relish in pointing out where

people are in error and sometimes very

dangerous error. This this is not a fun

thing to do. Um we desire unity with all

uh believers, but it has to be a unity

of doctrine, a unity of practice. And

scripture instructs us to um to sharpen

one another, to identify false teaching,

to expose error where it is, to call out

sin as it exists and not label things

that are not sin sin anyway just because

they irritate us and annoy us. And

unfortunately, a lot of that happens in

the online conversation. Um, we're going

to be I'm going to try to move we have a

lot of stuff to move through. I'm not

going to I don't want to spend all night

um working through this in every detail,

but I want it to be on record so that

when you wonder about this, when you

wonder why we're complaining like we are

about this this practice of hard

shephering, why we're insisting that

it's not biblical, why we are why why we

are pushing back against people that you

might say, "Hey, we those guys do a lot

of good things. Why are you pushing

back?" I mean, those those guys are I

mean, really doing a lot of good work uh

against the the evils of abortion, you

know, there I've really benefited from

this debate or that debate or this

podcast or that podcast. Why are you

why, you know, why are you casting shade

at this? Um, hopefully you can go back

to this podcast and see where the error

is and honestly see if some of this kind

of unbiblical

behavior and this what is really a a

two-tiered spirituality, a a legalism, a

a mini magisterium like magisterial

authority practiced in this in in in

your church. you you can see that if it

starts to take hold you can correct this

before it becomes what we're going to

talk about on uh this protesty

tonight I um mentioned before and and I

talked about this before and I and I

think that again JD if if you haven't

read it yet go read uh uh JD Hall's

article on uh the on hard shephering go

read that he lays out really well he

lays out some of the um this where hard

shephering as a as a philosophy or as a

as a ministry practice comes from. Um

but but it's I I don't think a lot of

believers, especially in the more

reformed tradition or those of us that

lean that way, really realize how

pernicious this can get. Um and so we're

going to be using we're we're going to

be using apology as the as as an example

of of where this can really like

seriously go off the rails.

Um, if you haven't read yet, there's an

article over at

pulpitpen.org talking about um the issue

with Jeff Durban secretly recording

penitent phone calls, not only of Tim

Herd, who's who's our friend and and

some of you know uh about all of that,

but even like his own church members and

his own people that attend his church,

this stuff has been done before and

they're okay with it. This and why are

they okay with it? Because the churches

that practice hardship shepherd, pastors

that push this sort of authoritarianism

on their churches, they believe that

church discipline is the purview not of

the church as a body, not of um the the

gathered church assembly. They believe

church discipline is the the

responsibility and purview of the

eldership. They they take when the Bible

talks about elders who rule well and

talks about obeying those who, you know,

watch over you and rule over you, they

take this to mean a much more a much

broader definition that takes the the

authority that a church body has to do

discipline. We're going to walk through

the scripture here. We're going to

demonstrate this conclusively. And they

say, "No, that's for the elders." So

whether somebody is in sin or not, a a a

judgment conferred on them stops with

the eldership. The church body as a

whole really has no role in this. And if

they do have a role, it's going to be to

basically uh affirm or deny whatever the

elders have previously determined. Uh to

to sum it up, they believe that the

eldership are the

disciplinarians of behavior in the

church. That's where they start. Now, is

this true? because we we've seen not

only some of these elders uh insisting

this is the way it should be within

their local churches, but then going

online and uh and saying because we are

elders, we're the disciplinarians, we

have some elevated authority to actually

demand this of other churches, of other

Christians, of people that we really

have no practical access to church

discipline with. We're still going to

try to assert our title, our position

online to discipline people and and and

very often, not even for like obvious

sin, but for their personal uh where

they put the personal goalpost for what

they consider to be a speech they don't

like. And and the the way you can figure

this out is when somebody is online

saying slander, slander, lies, slander,

lies. You all saw the the montage there

at the beginning.

the this constant repetition of you've

slandered us, you've abused us, you've

misrepresented us, you've lied lied

against us with no real demonstration

that that's actually been done. Instead,

you wind up just with, you know, you

just disagreed with what somebody said

or you didn't like the way they said it

or they came to a conclusion or an

opinion about you that you you don't

like or you disagree with. That's

slander. And then all of a sudden, now

we can now we can start to try to apply

uh intraurch or interchurch discipline.

I'm going to call your elders and demand

your I I want to talk to people that

have authority in your life. You know,

Jeff Durban is very fond of saying this.

I want to talk to people that have

authority in your life. And it's like,

no, no. You at my church, my elders

don't have super superscriptural

authority over my life. I'm a Baptist.

This is not what we practice. Your other

elder at Apologia, James White, is a

Baptist, is he not? and Baptists

practice congregational governance under

the under the principles of the

priesthood of of the believer. The

elders are not above and beyond or

ordinary believers as far as their their

uh call to engage in church discipline,

nor are they in a special category where

it takes elevated standards in order to

bring charges against them. We're going

to go through this. Uh but in in because

we see this online so much, a lot of you

are wondering like like where is this

coming from? I I want to show you where

it's coming from. Uh but but first I

want to I want you to hear from um from

John MacArthur. I I think he's a really

good resource for this and especially

because um he is they they have uh uh

elders. It's an elder rule church at

Grace Community Church.

probably the one thing I disagree with

him about is the idea of ruling

eldership to, you know, and I I mean

it's a giant church. There are some

maybe some practical limitations here,

but um the part of the reason that I

trust those guys over there to get this

right is because they don't they very

explicitly don't teach a two-tiered

uh authority structure within their

church. Um, I'm going to pull up here a

couple clips from him so so we can sort

of set the uh set set the standard

here. And all right, let's I'm going to

rewind this to the beginning and let's let's

uh the necessity of authority in the

church in a time when authority is not

popular and even authority from the

pulpit is not popular.

I uh can tell you from personal

experience that uh and notice real quick

he said he said authority is not popular

and authority from the pulpit from the

pulpit is not popular. This is going to

be really important to focus on to

understand the the nature the the high

importance and and honestly the

limitations of pastor elder authority in churches.

churches.

I am the subject of much blogging

uh and have been for many many years and

perhaps it's escalated in more recent

years since I wrote the book the truth

war and I am accused as I have been in

the past of being far too authoritarian.

Now, now the funny thing is if if John

MacArthur was a hard shepherd, if he

practiced what uh some of these guys are

like like the Apologia guys practice and

and promote um he he would he would

probably be on line right now demanding

to talk to a lot of people's elders. I'm

I'm not sure that there is a more uh

faithful pastor with with more published

criticism online than than John

MacArthur. far too dogmatic, far too

narrow, far too absolute in the things

that I say that um I somehow have become

quote unquote non-Christian in my

advocacy of the Christian faith because

I am not tolerant. I'm not accepting of

a wide variety of opinions and

viewpoints. I have no personal

authority. We have pointed that out in

this series. I have no ecclesiastical

authority. We have addressed that. There

is no human level on which I possess any

authority. I have no authority from my

education. I have no authority from my

office as a pastor. I have no authority

from my experience, years as a

Christian, years in ministry. The only

authority that I have and the only time

that I am to be heard as an authority is

when I rightly proclaim to you the truth

of the word of God. For only the word of

God is the

authority. So yeah, I I think we can

hold that one um that clip there. You

get my point. So, even John MacArthur,

who is senior pastor of a church with an elder

elder

board, and we can I mean, we're not

going to we don't have time to chase

that rabbit uh on this protest here

tonight, but he makes it very clear. I

don't have authority, walking authority

in the lives of people online. I don't

have authority to demand to talk to

elders if if you blog about me and I

don't like it. Um, I'm not I'm not, you

know, trying to police the behavior, the

speech of my church members online.

There's a pro there's a church

discipline process for that that he

doesn't need to be in in the middle of

all the time. Uh, he says it here again.

This is probably maybe a more uh well uh

well seen clip, a clip that's been out

there a little more. This was a this was

a Q&A. Hi, Heather. Uh, first I'd like

to thank you for your ministry. God has

used your online broadcasts very much

over the last couple of years in my life

and my family's life. Good. Um, one

question I struggle with though is to

what extent um, a member of a church is

required to obey his pastor. How much

authority does a pastor have in the

lives of his congregants?

Yeah. So, I like how she phrased it

here. By the way, um, let's let's listen

to it one more time. a pastor have

church is required to obey his pastor.

How much? Yeah. How how much is a member

of a church required to obey pastor? Now

it's funny because Hebrews will say obey

your leaders. The ones have watch over

your soul. Right there there's a verse

that like seems to on the surface say

obey your leader.

Authority does a pastor have in the

lives of his congregants? Um

none. no authority.

Um, I have no authority in this church

personally. My experience doesn't give

me any authority. My knowledge doesn't

give me any authority. My education

doesn't give me any authority.

Um, I have no authority. My position

doesn't give me any

authority. My title doesn't give me any

authority. That's why I don't like titles.

titles.

Only the word of God has authority.

Christ is the head of the church and he

mediates his rule in the church through

his word. I have no

authority. I don't have

authority beyond the scripture. I can

never exceed what is written. 1

Corinthians 4:6.

Now let's hear that again. I can he says

I can never

exceed what is written.

written.

So a a pastor or an elder who is

claiming elevated

authority that is not found anywhere in

the text is exceeding scripture. And

that is a that is a sin. And and I would

argue in in in the case of what we're

about to talk about with Apologia, a

disqualifying sin.

To do that is to become Paul says

arrogant and to regard yourself as superior.

superior.

I have nothing to say to you that puts

any demand on you if it isn't from the

word of God.

Uh so I I I think that establishes the

point that I'm going to be trying to

forward here, which is elder authority

is by ministry and mediation of the

word. It is not authority by title, by

status, by superior intellect or

knowledge. It's not it's not um well God

called me to be an elder. I'm God's

anointed. You hear this sometimes pushed

around touch not God's anointed. You

hear that yanked out of context. to

somehow imply that elders that there's a

they have a special status in terms of

sin or disciplinary matters. Um I I

wanted to lay that out there before we

uh discuss the difference between this

and what we're trying to identify with

hard shephering. Uh let's go over

to I found I found this really helpful

to to work this out. Uh sometime in like

around 2021

uh Apologia Church put a a page up on

their website for those who are

interested in ministry at the church.

And I I want to walk through this.

Hopefully it doesn't take you know eight

years but we'll I suppose we'll find

out. Uh let me yeah let me larger there.

So this is uh from Apology Church's

website and it's it the link is um under

uh ministry interest

guidelines. So it says thank you for

your desire to be part of the work God

is doing through Apologia. And they say

they say that that this was the reason.

Now let's look at a little timeline here

first of all. So, James White leaves

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church or

Apologia Church in like I don't know

2018 some something around there. I I

think this page was probably put on

their website a few years after that. Um

I'll I'll explain why that might be

relevant, but uh it's written receiving

the number of requests that we have. Uh

and these are requests for reportedly um

to join with Apologia Church in their work

work

uh whether here in Arizona, other states

or other countries.

receiving the number of requests that we

that we have has required us to put

together a formal and official

procedural plan for these

inquiries. So they put this together

because of supposedly this mass of

people asking to to join Apologia in

some way. Then they say, I found this

really interesting. You will never see

us hire leadership from outside of

Apologia except James White apparently.

Um but only raise up from within. This

is something we are incredibly

intentional about and take very

seriously. Apparently, again, only in

the last few years because they they had

no problem. You know, all all the

requirements that we're we're going to

run through here, I I can't imagine that

that was asked of James White when he

came to Apologia Church. So, they say

first uh thing we require you become a

member at Apology Church. And catch this

under the guidance, care, and

accountability of the founding elders.

The found what's a founding elder? Have

any of you heard of this this office? A founding

founding

elder? I mean, we're already off to a

rocky start here because in in the New

Testament, elders are chosen from among

the the the gathering of people are

there. I mean obviously a church that's

planted or started has to be founded in

in in in some in some way but it's still

it's Jesus's church you know maintaining

this status somebody has as a founding

elder is not it's not a biblical

distinction not a there's not like the

elders but but these elders who started

the place well they're the founding el

so they say if you're in another state

you you would you would have to move to

Arizona this would allow us to get to

know and watch you. We get to know and

watch you after you move to Arizona and

you get to know us and learn how we

operate as a church body. Uh if we you

need to move, you know, you you need to

have your job, housing, transportation,

all figured out. Okay. Once you become a

member of Apology Church, like I don't

know if they still use a certificate

like faithful till death kind of thing.

You know, I would assume they do

considering the content of this, but

they say we we require who's we? Well,

we is the founding elders. we as the

founding elders, right? Not not the

church uh body with procedures

enumerated externally that can be um

examined by all, but we the founding

elders require a minimum of two years to

watch you and grow with you as the body

of Christ. Uh yeah, again, we we see

this again. Two years to watch you, be

watching, see how you do. We're going to

be watching. The probationary period

ultimately serve as a ministry test to

see if you truly want to multiply the

work being done here. So they're going

to watch you so they can determine if

you really

want you really have the desire in your

heart. Well, we're not going to just

take your word for it. We're going to

watch you and make sure and then

apparently make a judgment on on your

heart, your desires, your motivations if

you truly want it

enough and allow us to decide again

who's us the founding elders to decide

whether or not you are someone we can

trust with this task. It it is important

to know that moving here becoming a

member of Apologia so you pick up your

whole family change your whole thing and

come over to Apology in no way serves as

a guarantee of moving forward together.

We reserve the right who's we the

founding elders, the elders at the top

reserve the right to end any potential

ministry at any given moment if what we

see not if you

sin, not if you um express um different

beliefs or practices or something like

this. Uh not if you know it just doesn't

like the ministry you're going to be

involved in doesn't have room for you.

if we see any concerns or red

flags. That's not a that's that's not a

biblical standard. I mean, I realize

there's a practical standard of of, you

know, how many greeters you can have uh

on a Sunday morning, how many people can

teach Sunday school or these kinds of

things. Um but that's not the reason.

It's like, hey, if we see any concerns

or red flags, that's it. We just end it.

Like, you know, no no no appeal.

Apparently, after this 2-year

probationary period, again, you've moved

your whole family out here. if we

determine you're a good fit and this is

so weird ultimately trust you with our

lives like is is that really the I mean

where is that scripturally that that you

know that you're going to have to trust

somebody in your church with your I mean

it's just bizarre bizarre language we

can then or we can then at that point

possibly begin to discuss the

possibility of raising you up either as

leadership within apology of church or

sending you elsewhere to plant another

apology or even a

missionary, you know, if Yeah. If we

determine again, no enumerated standard

here, right? No, no standard by which

somebody would be able to say, "Okay, I

I know that I I believe in what they're

what they're doing enough to move my

whole family to Arizona." It's like the

standard is, are you comfortable with

Jeff Durban and Luke Pearson and whoever

else and James White, whoever else their

elders are at Apology Church, um

determining by their own standard if

you're a good fit and if they trust you.

Um and then possibly maybe you know you

know we can then at that point possibly

discuss the possibility of uh raising

you up to leadership and notice this

they're going to they're going to raise

you up. So, you know, what while the

Bible indicates that the Holy Spirit

gifts the church with with ministers and

and and gifts for ministry uh in terms

of position, in terms of actual

spiritual gifts of ability, um no,

they're they're going to raise you

up. And if they if we decide to move

forward, again, it's just it's all at

their whim. We estimate at least another

two-year process. If they're going to

plant somewhere else, 3 to four years is

more likely. again re-emphasized no

guarantee of this. It's still up to us.

We're the founding elders. You don't

come in here thinking that you are an

equal member of the body of Christ or or

something that when we accept you into

membership that we are somehow giving,

you know, um some like equal access to

min minister in the name of Jesus Christ

in any way. I mean, you know, never mind

that that's a huge part of the

reformation. No, no, no. We we are going

to maintain control of the church we

founded, right? Jesus apparently didn't

found this church. we did. We're going

to maintain control. If you're looking

to be raised up as an elder, uh it's

important to know we have very specific

things we look for in potential

elders. Now, now one might expect, one

might expect if they were uh a

scriptural innerist, if they were a

scriptural sufficientist, if that's a

word, they believe in these things. We'd

probably expect some scripture

references here. We'd probably expect to

be going to to to, you know, Timothy and

ties to the elder qualifications. We're

looking for specific things in potential

elders. Here's what the Bible says

elders are supposed to be. Here are the

qualifications. Um, this is the standard

by which we determine who is qualified

to be an elder because it's the standard

laid out in God's word. Nope. There's a

whole other list of things. We want to

see you take initiative consistently be

the first one there, last one to leave,

always asking for things to do. In other

words, we want you to get get over here and

and

uh become uh gophers. get over here and

become gophers for the church. Never ask

you to help with menial tasks. You

should never be afraid to get your hands

dirty, bleed, sweat, and cry. Secondly,

we need to know that you are scared to

death to teach from the pulpit. Uh you

should have a healthy fear of

dishonoring Christ during worship. Okay,

that sentence is true. I'm not sure that

that means you're scared to death to

teach from the pulpit. That like where?

Show me a scripture reference where

somebody proclaiming the truth of God's

word should be afraid to do it.

Uh, this got me. Asking for asking us

for pulpit time is an immediate red flag

and an instant strike against you. So,

apparently as they're watching you, as

they're watching you, they are tallying

your behavior, they're they're like you

have a strike against you. Now,

scripture says that if a man desires to

be an overseer, he desires to be a

pastor, he desires to be an elder,

that's a good thing. and the elder the

the primary ordination role of the elder

the reason that he's set aside is for

the ministry of the word for preaching

for preaching and teaching the word

that's that's what that office is for

and yet if you go to Apology 8 and you

said hey man could I I really would like

to preach I I mean I I believe God has

called me to preach I would really like

to preach the Bible says it's a good

thing to desire this and and I believe

that and I'm trying to live that out and

you know when am I going to be able to

preach? Can I preach? What, you know,

when am I allowed to preach? Uh,

immediate red flag for them. Immediate

red flag for them. Wh why might that be?

Why would that be a red flag? Could it

be that

um fear of of taking some of the

attention away from the elders currently

there? I think it's possible. It doesn't

say here again. And I mean, we're we're

talking about an entire list of of

requirements for ministry here without a

single scripture reference. That's

that's a red flag. You want to talk

about a red flag, it's not asking for

pulpit time. It's a whole enumerated set

of what it takes to minister at a

church. And none of it comes from

scripture. And not to say you can't

derive some of this from from scripture,

but you you would think certainly when

you're talking about uh the stuff you

want, you know, as a founding elder, the

stuff you want uh from potential elders,

you might throw a Bible verse in there.

Yeah, just a few, you know, I mean,

remind us of the standard that you're

applying here because this is all seems

like personal standard to me. Uh so they

say, third, you should have the gift of

teaching. Yes, the elder is to be apt to

teach. This is the first time so far

that we've seen something that has any

direct connection really with the

enumerated qualifications for elders we

see in the New Testament. To ensure

this, we'll put you in teaching rotation

for our advanced theological teaching on

Thursday nights to give you

opportunities to hone your skills and

allow us allow us to determine if your

teaching abilities meet our standards.

Now, this isn't all bad. We do want to

ensure in some way that people who are

preaching and teaching are gifted and to

do so and capable of doing it. But this

is it. This is a just another way to

ensure that whoever comes on who would

ever be considered for an elder at that

church will tow the company line. We'll

do things the way that the founding

elders want them to be done. We want to

run you through this theological

training to make sure you're that you're

and again this is going to take years,

two years, four years to make sure as

much as possible you are not going to

ever challenge what we do, right? I mean

this is why they have closed off we

would assume

uh their church uh to outsider what they

would call outsiders again like you will

never see us hire leadership from

outside of Apologia um but only raise up

from within. Now raising up from within

is a good thing but is there a biblical

limitation on a a man being called to go

uh be an elder or a pastor at another

church? No. No, there isn't. Why? So why

would this I mean clearly they didn't

believe this for with James White. They

they they let him uh uh join as an as an

elder at apology of church presuming

would with none of this stuff. I mean no

nobody in their right mind would believe

that James White went through a

probationary period

uh and that after the probationary

period they discussed the possibility of

raising him up as a leader within

apology of church. like this is

something that you know was put in after

James White joined Apology at church m

perhaps at his

behest. I don't know you know I probably

shouldn't do I mean he does that stuff

all the time. I probably shouldn't just

throw out suggestions and then say who

knows who knows.

Um lastly uh it's crucial that you are

courageous. We will not raise up

cowards. We will again we will watch you

to make sure that during trials you act

like a man. Everyday events of life you

act like a man. You don't faint in the

day of adversity. Uh again this is all

by their personal assessment of if

you're what? Courageous enough, manly

enough. If they decide to continue to

raise you up beyond this point, we will

first put you into deacon training for a

minimum of 6 months. So, so no elder no

elders before their deacons. Again, a

very extra biblical requirement that the

scripture makes no mention of and then

make you an official deacon. And th this

this this was crazy. This will allow you

to see how our church government works.

So only by the time you are apparently

according to this, if this can be

believed, only by the time that you are

an official deacon, after your deacon

training, only by being made an official

deacon will you have any idea how the

church government works. I mean, I I can

think of some other uh religious

movements that increase your level of

knowledge about what they do as you move

up in the ranks, right? Scientology does

this. Mormonism does this. you you're

you're not privy to the insider

information of something of how things

work of of of the practices and beliefs

of the of the people in charge until you

reach a certain rank, a certain point of

trust. This this idea of how we do

things not being available to the rest

of the body, but only certain people.

And and I would argue not being

available publicly and openly for

examination. I mean, the word of God is

public and open for examination. It can

be read and understood and assessed and

uh interpreted by anybody that has it in

their hands. This is the same thing we

should be doing with our churches. Our

churches should not have secret ways of

doing things.

There there is absolutely no biblical

call for your eldership, any eldership

to say you can't know how we do XYZ. No

call whatsoever. There's nothing that a

church needs to be doing in the dark.

We're not talking about, you know,

personal information and and and you

know, doxing people. We're not talking

about that. We're talking about how does

your church work? How do you make

decisions? How are elders selected? By

by what standard? What role does the

congregation, if any, does the

congregation have in affirming its

leadership, confirming its leadership,

choosing its

leadership? You know, you won't know any

of that and probably not even the whole

thing until you are uh an official

deacon. And then from there, if again

the founding elders reassert their

command, if we desire to raise you up as

an elder, then we will intentionally

pour into you for as long as we deem

necessary. So, so if then after you're a

deacon, if they if they decide to raise

you up an elder there, it's an

indeterminate amount of time while they

mold you into their image, into how they

want to be, how they want to act before

again, again, the congregation, no part

of this whatsoever, right? This this

this man that's supposedly going to be

an elder at this church

is the the Padawan learner of the

founding elders. At which point they

will they will make sure that he

conforms to uh he conforms to their

preferences and in no way challenges

them or in no way uh has anything to say

other than exactly what they would want

him to say. And that's going to take

well as long as they deem necessary. And

again, no

guarantee. So, we might we might ra

decide to raise you up as an elder, tell

you that this is the intent, um, and

then pour into you, but if we see a if

we see a red flag, buddy, no guarantee

you're out. Now, does this sound

like anything resembling anything

resembling what we see in scripture for church

church

leadership? No. No, it doesn't at all.

This this is hard shephering laid out.

And keep in mind if the founding elders

of a church have statutory and they

would argue spiritual authority to

determine other like cart blanch by

their own standards with no no

enumerated process other than what we

just read through right there for for

determining the nature and scope of

ministry of anybody else in the church.

Is it really a body anymore? Can they

really say that they hold to the the

the scriptural requirement for one one

member of the body not being more

important than another? No. I mean, this

this is command and control. And some of

you going to say, "Well, well, David,

but the body has a head and and the head

in in the head uh is the brain, and the

brain tells all the other parts of the

body what to do." And so, this is

exactly what we're practicing here. Um,

no, it's not what that mean. It's not

what that means at all. It means there

are different roles within the body.

Roles within the body. Not not like like

chopping off your hands because they're

not heads is not is is has never been a

biblical form uh of practicing

practicing and and ministering within

the church.

Um and so I wondered, okay, like where

did they come up with this? Because like

we've been I mean we we we've seen we've

we we've documented the evidence of

secretly recording phone calls. We have

seen these guys over and over and over.

Demand to talk to your elders. Demand to

talk to your elders. Demand to talk to

your elders. And and they do that

because they think somehow that those

other elders are going to be more

amanable to listening to them as our

fellow elder. And and of course the the

unspoken threat that if you if we don't

get the answer we want after we demand

to talk to our elders, you know, we we

might cause some problems for your

church instead because obviously I mean

if if you don't if you don't agree with

our judgment that somebody's in sin

here, then I mean you're unqualified to

be an elder. That's that's reason enough

to go after I mean who wants a church

with unqualified elders leading it? and

and like and I and I couldn't figure I'm

going back to the the issue with Tim

Herd because that was something that

that that we knew a lot about and and I

watched through a lot of the the

material that put up and and you know I

I know some of you have heard this

before but I you know I'm going to

rewind the timeline just a little bit so

you know um Tim Herd back in 2017 I

think it was had called and apologized

and confessed that um he had mischaracterized

mischaracterized

um Jeff Durban and his positions and

things and then had admitted to him that

it was because uh envy and jealousy over

the popularity of his YouTube channel

and and stuff like this. calls,

apologizes. Um, Jeff apparently accepts

the apology, forgives him by I mean,

this call is still, by the way, online

on an anonymous YouTube channel that we

know now is not anonymous, but call

still up. You can go find it. Uh,

supposedly forgives forgives him. Uh,

you know, Tim's kind of hat in hand. I

think honestly, you know, I don't want

to speak for Tim Herd, but I think

honestly it was like I he he liked what

they were doing enough he didn't want to

be in their bad graces. He wanted to be

their friend. He wanted to be their

friend. He asks on the phone call if he

could um if he has a question about

something, could could he call, you

know, is there a way that he could call?

And um one of the other guys on the call

says, "You know, I mean, Jeff's so busy

right now, not even his own church

members have access to him. They got to

go through an intermediary. they have to

set up an appointment. This is set on

there. And yet and yet I guess Jeff says

in the call, "No, you got my like number

to call and and um and so this this this

happens in 2017 uh a year and a half

later or something like that. um after

the after the supposed forgiveness and

and and whatnot, um Tim makes like two

or three other videos where he is like I

watched them I think mildly critical at

best minor critique of Jeff Durban and in

response Jeff doesn't go back to Tim Tim

and say hey what's with this man you

said you know I think this is sin I

think you lied about me in this video

you mischaracterized it and again the

videos are just opinions. It's just him

saying like, "I don't think he did that,

right? I think he should have done this

instead." We're not talking about some

high crime and misdemeanor of, you know,

did you know that Jeff has a, you know,

communicable disease or something? There

was no slander involved by any sort of

reasonable definition. It was just like

like Durban didn't agree with with Tim's

opinions that he put out there. He

didn't like being

criticized. What he do? But in response

to Tim making a few other videos, Jeff

releases the secretly recorded audio of

the phone call online and Tim just

happens upon it on YouTube at some points

points

and challenges Jeff, contacts Jeff and

said, "Dude, what? You didn't even like

like why did you put the recording of of

my apology and confession and by the way

your your extending of forgiveness?

why did you put that online? And Jeff's

like, well, you're doing the same thing

again. You're doing the same thing to

me. And so Tim's like, "No, I'm not."

And Tim makes a video responding to to

this thing being leaked. Um 20 minutes

or so. And and then I I think, memory

serves, and then Jeff puts and and this

is the clip from before this podcast was

from Jeff Durban recording with Marcus

Pitman. I think that's who that is. I

don't know. But uh and James White,

James White wasn't there for the whole

video, but a

threehour threehour podcast

um talking about how how bad how much of

a slanderer and a liar and an abuser Tim

is for 5 years. he's been abusing us and

slandering us and this is why we have to

do this and and very hyperbolic over the

top just just comically over the top

considering what it actually was what

the issue actually was. But to make

matters worse,

um Jeff defends this defends this

hyperbole, this this over-the-top

consternation of his by claiming that

Tim lied about him and said that that

with the original sin that that um uh

that Jeff never reached out to him and

Jeff's like, Tim, I did reach out to

you. So, he plays this clip of Tim Herd

saying, "I don't think Jeff Durban's

ever reached out."

And Jeff uses that, but he leaves out

the second half of So Tim's like, "I

don't think Jeff's ever reached out to

uh Oh, actually, you know, no, he did.

He did." Yeah, we talked about on the

phone and it was cool. Like, like he

corrects himself. He He misstates

corrects himself. Jeff cut off the

correcting and just left a misstatement

in there and then used that as like the

primary cudel for why Tim Herd is still

a liar, why he's still terrible.

Um, and so I'm watching through this

three-hour like I'm I'm trying to watch

on like one and a half speed because

it's just I mean you saw like that

wasn't even all of the clips if you saw

the montage at the beginning of this

video. That wasn't even all the times

that Jeff was he slandered and lied and

misrepresented blah blah blah. Like that

could have gone on for a couple more

minutes without even repeating a clip.

That's how ridiculous it was, right? But

I'm watching this whole thing and like

like where is this coming from? This

this seems so over the top and insane

and and then I catch in there uh some

some I would argue pretty serious errors

and it happened to be uh

um the other dude and honestly I don't I

don't even know I'm going to check right

now before I before I uh before I say it

again. Sorry. It was it was Luke

Pearson. It wasn't Marcus Pitman. So

Luke L Luke Pearson is on this podcast

for three hours with Jeff Durban back in

2020 um talking about how how awful uh

Tim Herd is and and whatnot. And then

Luke said a couple things that really I

think exposed a big part of this

problem. Said a couple things in this

video and and I realize this is you know

we're 5 years down the road at this

point but he said he said some things

that I think uh that that uh will make

this a little clearer. I want to play

them and then do a little bit of

scripture work to identify uh at least

one of one of the hot spots of the error

that has brought about some of this

up. Yeah, let's let's let's let's uh

So there we go. So that's kind of been

the charge that's been leveled at us.

It's it's to say, "Well, you released

this. He was you forgave him for this.

Now you're not forgiving him. You know,

you're using this as a weapon." And um

so we we tried the first steps of

Matthew 18, which didn't go anywhere.

Stop. Stop. Flag on the play. So So Luke

here, he he says, "We tried the first

steps of Matthew 18 and they didn't go

anywhere." Now go on to YouTube and

search Tim Herd confession and listen to

that and ask yourself is that it they

didn't go anywhere. What does Matthew

18:15 say? If your brother sins, take it

to him in private. Now again, Tim Herd

is the one that made the phone call, but

you know, the the the general principles

still apply. Uh if if he listens, you've

won your brother. And by by any stretch

of the imagination in that phone call,

the the result of the phone call was

forgiveness for the sin. At least, you

know, that's what they said. They

forgave him for the sin uh that he had committed.

committed.

Um that's that's the end of Matthew

18. Like like it's and and yet listen to

what uh a founding elder of Apologia

Church does with Matthew 18 here.

weapon. And um so we we tried the first

steps of Matthew 18, which didn't go

anywhere. Um and I mean in his video

last night, he he even tried to define

Matthew 18 again and said, "Well, you

forgave me of this. If there's another

sin, you're you're to start with a clean

slate." Yeah, that's true. That's how he

defined Matthew 18. And I was like,

"That's not how this works." Not with

abuse. Even even within the local church

without You hear Jeff in the background.

Not with abuse. I was abused. Not with

abuse. He's abusing.

abusing.

Like, I mean, listen to how they have

twisted and

and bastardized and perverted the

process of church and discipline and

biblical forgiveness. Listen to it

again. That's how he defined Matthew 18.

And I was like, that's not me of this.

If there's another sin, you're you're to

start with a clean slate. That's how he

defined Matthew 18. And I was like,

that's not how this works. Not with

abuse. Even even within the local church

without if it's not in a local church,

if it's in a local church, that's not

how this works. If you have repented of

sin and then you continue in the same

sin, you don't start over again. You

bring it to the next step. You bring

more people involved, which you have

done, which we will talk about. Yes. Um,

you did try that again. As you that that

is hot garbage. That is garbage

biblically. What what you just heard

from a founding elder of Apology of

Church is a twisting and

bastardization of biblical forgiveness

and church discipline. So what they're

saying here is uh we we you you

confessed a sin, you confessed a

specific sin a year and a half ago and

then a year and a half later you

supposedly again it hasn't been

adjudicated and determined. We believe

you are committing the same sin, the sin

of slander. You said stuff up on a

podcast we disagree with. You made us

look bad in in public and and and you

put us in your in your thing and you you

photoshopped my head onto whatever it

is, right? We we've determined now

you've committed the same sin. So we now

retract the forgiveness we supposedly

offered you, the free forgiveness that

we supposedly offered you. Again,

emulating Christ. Forgive one another as

Christ has forgiven you. We retract that

because we have determined with

immediiacy that you are have not

repented of the prior sin. You know, we

have no uh requirement anymore to

actually start Matthew 18 again, bring

the sin to you again. This is what

they're pushing here. Um let's do a

little bit of uh Bible work here since

they they clearly refused to. Uh this is

uh Matthew 18. We know that we I mean we

know this, right? If your brother sins,

go and show him his fault between you

and him alone. If he listens to you, you

have won your brother. Now again, this

is fairly this is what I mean, we can

all listen to the call. This this was

the conclusion of this Matthew 18

process as far as Tim thought, as far as

apparently Jeff thought. I think Luke

was on the call as well, right? This is

the conclusion of that process is he

listens to you. Tim admitted he sinned.

He asked for forgiveness.

Um if you know you've won your brother,

that's the conclusion. Now if a year and

a half later you think that he committed

the same sin or something, that doesn't

that that doesn't mean uh that you don't

still have an obligation to follow

uh we see later and I I skipped a few

verses here just for for uh for

quickness here. Matthew 18:21 and this

follows by the way Jesus laying out the

process of church discipline. Oh, you

know, while we're here, by the way,

please note there is no step three and a

half in church discipline. I should say

maybe step two and a half. I mean,

wherever you want to place it, it's take

it to take it to him privately or if he

doesn't doesn't listen and I think most

a lot of public sin might fall in this

category. Two or three witnesses so that

every fact may be established, right?

You see you see it here. Uh every fact

may be confirmed. If if he refuses to

listen to them, listen to the witnesses.

Like the witnesses say, "Dude, you're

still in sin." Then if he refuses, tell

it to the church.

Now, tell it to the church does not mean

tell it to the elders. Tell it to a

subset of the church. Tell it to the the

higher court of church disciplinarians

that we call elders. Doesn't say that.

We're going to reinforce this later as

we keep going through. Um but Matthew

18:21, it's like you you you just want

to tell these guys that say, "Well, you

sinned against us back then, and yeah,

we forgave you, but then you did the

same sin in here, so that one doesn't

our forgiveness doesn't count. you know, you are now labeled permanently as a

you are now labeled permanently as a slander and a liar in all of this. You

slander and a liar in all of this. You just want to say like, have you

just want to say like, have you read through Matthew 18? Really, verse

read through Matthew 18? Really, verse 21, um Peter came to to Christ and said,

21, um Peter came to to Christ and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin

"Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him up to seven

against me and I forgive him up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say

times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you up to seven times, but up to

to you up to seven times, but up to 70* 7." Our willingness to forgive is

70* 7." Our willingness to forgive is supposed to be modeled after Christ's

supposed to be modeled after Christ's willingness to forgive. I mean, when you

willingness to forgive. I mean, when you sin and you know your sins are forgiven

sin and you know your sins are forgiven by Christ and then you sin again, does

by Christ and then you sin again, does Christ say, "Well, nice try. I guess

Christ say, "Well, nice try. I guess that that first forgiveness doesn't

that that first forgiveness doesn't count up 70* 7 means perpetually."

count up 70* 7 means perpetually." Doesn't mean 490 times. It means

Doesn't mean 490 times. It means perpetually forgive your brother. Now,

perpetually forgive your brother. Now, what does forgiveness mean? Apparently,

what does forgiveness mean? Apparently, according to the hard shepherds over

according to the hard shepherds over here, forgiveness just means saying, "I

here, forgiveness just means saying, "I forgive you." There's no practical

forgive you." There's no practical consequence to it whatsoever. I'm just

consequence to it whatsoever. I'm just going to say I forgave you. I'm going to

going to say I forgave you. I'm going to say I forgave you. Oh, and by the way,

say I forgave you. Oh, and by the way, my forgiveness is going to be contingent

my forgiveness is going to be contingent on you never doing this again. If you if

on you never doing this again. If you if you sin here and then I forgave you, I

you sin here and then I forgave you, I mean, you and I know this is a pinky

mean, you and I know this is a pinky swear that that that you will never do

swear that that that you will never do what I claimed you what what uh I'm

what I claimed you what what uh I'm claiming that you did. Or in the case of

claiming that you did. Or in the case of like Tim Herd, he admits the sin and

like Tim Herd, he admits the sin and then Jeff takes that as hey, anything

then Jeff takes that as hey, anything that's even similar to this, I'm not

that's even similar to this, I'm not even going to bother to actually explain

even going to bother to actually explain why it's sin. Not going to go through

why it's sin. Not going to go through that process. It's automatically sin.

that process. It's automatically sin. It's what you said is automatically sin

It's what you said is automatically sin because a year and a half later, you a

because a year and a half later, you a year and a half ago, you admitted that

year and a half ago, you admitted that you said something that was sinful and

you said something that was sinful and had a had a sinful motivation. I now

had a had a sinful motivation. I now reserve the right for you never ever to

reserve the right for you never ever to speak my name ever again unless you want

speak my name ever again unless you want me to decide on the moment that it's

me to decide on the moment that it's sinful, declare it such and withdraw my

sinful, declare it such and withdraw my prayer forgiveness from you. This is the

prayer forgiveness from you. This is the consequence of hard shephering. And it

consequence of hard shephering. And it might seem like it's inconsequential to

might seem like it's inconsequential to somebody like Tim Herd versus Jeff Dur

somebody like Tim Herd versus Jeff Dur over the internet. It is less

over the internet. It is less consequential for that. Honestly, it's

consequential for that. Honestly, it's it's inconsequential enough for it to be

it's inconsequential enough for it to be comically stupid that it even got to

comically stupid that it even got to this point. But these guys do this to

this point. But these guys do this to people in their own

people in their own church. They do it to people of their

church. They do it to people of their own church. They apply this kind of

own church. They apply this kind of tilted standard to the process. Um it

tilted standard to the process. Um it has been documented with

has been documented with detail. So read through um we are going

detail. So read through um we are going long as I thought we might but read

long as I thought we might but read through Matthew 18 uh 23 through34 and

through Matthew 18 uh 23 through34 and you tell me what this parable teaches

you tell me what this parable teaches about the nature of Christian

about the nature of Christian forgiveness. Again, we're not talking

forgiveness. Again, we're not talking about and and by the way, Jeff Durban

about and and by the way, Jeff Durban compared Tim Herd's abuse and slander

compared Tim Herd's abuse and slander over five years to a guy beating his

over five years to a guy beating his wife. And he compared it to that. He

wife. And he compared it to that. He said, "Well, you know, if a guy beats

said, "Well, you know, if a guy beats his wife and she forgives him, it's not

his wife and she forgives him, it's not like he can go back to beating her again

like he can go back to beating her again and say, hey, I have a clean slate."

and say, hey, I have a clean slate." That's so stupid that beating your wife

That's so stupid that beating your wife has a practical magistrate

has a practical magistrate consequence. Like, he wouldn't be able

consequence. Like, he wouldn't be able to be hopefully he's going to jail for a

to be hopefully he's going to jail for a while.

while. I mean, you're you're talking about

I mean, you're you're talking about someone saying something about you

someone saying something about you online you don't like. He was mean to me

online you don't like. He was mean to me online. He said stuff online about me

online. He said stuff online about me that I don't like. Um and and you know,

that I don't like. Um and and you know, of course, it being a higher standard

of course, it being a higher standard because he's an elder. But read through

because he's an elder. But read through Matthew 18:23

Matthew 18:23 through35 and and try to um argue that

through35 and and try to um argue that this parable does not demonstrate uh

this parable does not demonstrate uh unconditional forgiveness. unconditional

unconditional forgiveness. unconditional not bringing up past wrongs against

not bringing up past wrongs against people. This parable here obliterates

people. This parable here obliterates the idea that you can that you should

the idea that you can that you should hold somebody's pastforgiven sin against

hold somebody's pastforgiven sin against them, especially if it's not even

them, especially if it's not even related to you. Yeah. I'm talking about

related to you. Yeah. I'm talking about uh trying to hold JD Hall's Xanax

uh trying to hold JD Hall's Xanax addiction over him after it has been

addiction over him after it has been forgiven and repented of. I'm talking

forgiven and repented of. I'm talking about trying to hold Joel Webbins uh you

about trying to hold Joel Webbins uh you know um adulterous uh stuff against him

know um adulterous uh stuff against him that his church has adjudicated,

that his church has adjudicated, forgiven, reconciliation has occurred,

forgiven, reconciliation has occurred, you're going to turn around and throw it

you're going to turn around and throw it back in his face. Uh I'd be very

back in his face. Uh I'd be very concerned about that to use a way that

concerned about that to use a way that James White might phrase this. I'd be

James White might phrase this. I'd be I'd be I wouldn't want to be standing

I'd be I wouldn't want to be standing before the pearly gates and and and with

before the pearly gates and and and with this as my standard for judgment and

this as my standard for judgment and expecting forgiveness, unconditional

expecting forgiveness, unconditional forgiveness from Christ.

forgiveness from Christ. Uh let's go back to

Uh let's go back to um you know we got some other verses

um you know we got some other verses that I I I want to make this clear. I I

that I I I want to make this clear. I I want to put to bed this idea and I want

want to put to bed this idea and I want this on record to put to bed the idea

this on record to put to bed the idea that church elders are the

that church elders are the disciplinarians of the church. Church

disciplinarians of the church. Church discipline happens um by the hard

discipline happens um by the hard shepherd by the elder uh specifically.

shepherd by the elder uh specifically. Uh let's head over this. This is 1

Uh let's head over this. This is 1 Corinthians. A lot of you will be

Corinthians. A lot of you will be familiar with this. 1 Corinthians 5,

familiar with this. 1 Corinthians 5, Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.

Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. He says, uh, let's go to verse 9. Uh, I

He says, uh, let's go to verse 9. Uh, I wrote to you in my letter not to

wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.

associate with sexually immoral people. I did not at all mean with the sexually

I did not at all mean with the sexually immoral people of the world. Like, don't

immoral people of the world. Like, don't leave. When I say don't associate with

leave. When I say don't associate with sexually immoral people, I'm not talking

sexually immoral people, I'm not talking about lost people. Don't stop

about lost people. Don't stop evangelizing. Don't stop um preaching

evangelizing. Don't stop um preaching the gospel and being in the world as

the gospel and being in the world as you're not being of the world. Still be

you're not being of the world. Still be in it, right? Um, but now, yeah, he says

in it, right? Um, but now, yeah, he says it, for then you have to go out of the

it, for then you have to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not

world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with any so-called brother.

to associate with any so-called brother. Someone claiming the name of Christ.

Someone claiming the name of Christ. Someone saying, "I'm a Christian. I'm a

Someone saying, "I'm a Christian. I'm a I'm a brother in Christ." If what he is

I'm a brother in Christ." If what he is a sexually immoral person or greedy or

a sexually immoral person or greedy or an idoltor, reviler, drunkard, swindler,

an idoltor, reviler, drunkard, swindler, not even to eat with such a one. Now,

not even to eat with such a one. Now, how does Paul define who's a sexually

how does Paul define who's a sexually immoral person, greedy or idoltor, or

immoral person, greedy or idoltor, or reviler? Because there's a lot of people

reviler? Because there's a lot of people in the Corinthian church that were those

in the Corinthian church that were those things, right? Such were some of you.

things, right? Such were some of you. Such were they they were those things,

Such were they they were those things, but now they have been cleansed. They

but now they have been cleansed. They are not identified as those things

are not identified as those things anymore. So he's talking about somebody

anymore. So he's talking about somebody you can identify this way. Meaning what?

you can identify this way. Meaning what? They are unrepentantly practicing these

They are unrepentantly practicing these things. They're unrepentant. The they

things. They're unrepentant. The they the the fruit is not in keeping with

the the fruit is not in keeping with repentance. The fruit is in keeping with

repentance. The fruit is in keeping with sexual immorality, greed, idolatry, uh

sexual immorality, greed, idolatry, uh reviling, right? Don't even eat with

reviling, right? Don't even eat with such a one.

such a one. Um he's basically saying put these

Um he's basically saying put these people out of your church. You you're

people out of your church. You you're not you are not permitted to not conduct

not you are not permitted to not conduct church discipline.

church discipline. Um it's really important and he says um

Um it's really important and he says um later in go over here to this is second

later in go over here to this is second Corinthians second letter right he

Corinthians second letter right he refers to this thing again uh refers to

refers to this thing again uh refers to this case again. Now he's he's talking

this case again. Now he's he's talking about when when I mean he he knows there

about when when I mean he he knows there are cases in the Corinthian church of

are cases in the Corinthian church of unrepentant sexual immorality uh such

unrepentant sexual immorality uh such that even the pagans wouldn't tolerate

that even the pagans wouldn't tolerate it. And so he's being real harsh with

it. And so he's being real harsh with them, right? This first letter is

them, right? This first letter is rebuke. It pains Paul to write this

rebuke. It pains Paul to write this pains Paul to write this to the

pains Paul to write this to the Corinthian church. um you earlier in um

Corinthian church. um you earlier in um verse one of chapter 5 it is reported

verse one of chapter 5 it is reported there's sexual immorality among you

there's sexual immorality among you sexual immorality of such a kind does

sexual immorality of such a kind does not even exist among the Gentiles that

not even exist among the Gentiles that someone as his father's wife so he's

someone as his father's wife so he's saying this is happening in the church

saying this is happening in the church and Paul is bringing down the hammer of

and Paul is bringing down the hammer of rebuke

rebuke um by the time that we get to his second

um by the time that we get to his second letter he says uh and this is uh 2

letter he says uh and this is uh 2 Corinthians 2:9 but if any has caused

Corinthians 2:9 but if any has caused sorrow he has caused sorrow not to me,

sorrow he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree in order not to say

but in some degree in order not to say too much to all of you, he's talking

too much to all of you, he's talking about the people that that are

about the people that that are disciplined within the church. And then

disciplined within the church. And then verse six, this is this is really

verse six, this is this is really important for those of you that think

important for those of you that think elders are supposed to be the

elders are supposed to be the disciplinarians, the ones who conduct

disciplinarians, the ones who conduct and determine and judge uh issues of

and determine and judge uh issues of church discipline. Sufficient for such a

church discipline. Sufficient for such a one is this

one is this punishment which was inflicted by the

punishment which was inflicted by the majority.

majority. But Paul's indicating here that church

But Paul's indicating here that church discipline against this person was

discipline against this person was inflicted, was carried out, was executed

inflicted, was carried out, was executed by the majority, by the body of

by the majority, by the body of believers, not by the elders, the church

believers, not by the elders, the church itself. This is in keeping with Matthew

itself. This is in keeping with Matthew 18:17. Take it to the church. So that on

18:17. Take it to the church. So that on the contrary, you should rather

the contrary, you should rather graciously forgive and comfort him, lest

graciously forgive and comfort him, lest such a one be swallowed up by excessive

such a one be swallowed up by excessive sorrow. So when this man repents, when

sorrow. So when this man repents, when he is

he is um when he is demonstrating repentance,

um when he is demonstrating repentance, you are to forgive and comfort him.

you are to forgive and comfort him. Therefore, I encourage you to reaffirm

Therefore, I encourage you to reaffirm your love for him. Excuse me.

your love for him. Excuse me. Um for the in the end also I wrote so

Um for the in the end also I wrote so that I might know your proven character

that I might know your proven character whether you are obedient in all things.

whether you are obedient in all things. He's saying be obedient in what Christ

He's saying be obedient in what Christ taught for church discipline. If you've

taught for church discipline. If you've won your brother, forgive him. you've

won your brother, forgive him. you've won him. At step two, forgive him,

won him. At step two, forgive him, restore him, um, comfort him. It doesn't

restore him, um, comfort him. It doesn't mean there's no consequences, but it but

mean there's no consequences, but it but it means that his status as one of the

it means that his status as one of the brethren, as as a a fellow heir, as

brethren, as as a a fellow heir, as somebody who is a a partaker in the uh

somebody who is a a partaker in the uh the gifts of grace and the spiritual

the gifts of grace and the spiritual benefits of being a member of the body

benefits of being a member of the body of Christ, give those back to him

of Christ, give those back to him immediately.

immediately. Don't hold those o away from him.

Don't hold those o away from him. Reaffirm your love for

Reaffirm your love for him. This this indicates the unilateral

him. This this indicates the unilateral nature of forgiveness. It's not

nature of forgiveness. It's not contingent

contingent um on whether or not you think the guy

um on whether or not you think the guy is going to do the same sin in the

is going to do the same sin in the future. And church discipline is

future. And church discipline is inflicted by the majority. It's

inflicted by the majority. It's inflicted by the body of Christ. Um and

inflicted by the body of Christ. Um and there are practical reasons for this

there are practical reasons for this obviously.

obviously. Uh you don't want to be running into

Uh you don't want to be running into that guy who was church dis who's

that guy who was church dis who's excommunicated from your church uh in

excommunicated from your church uh in the grocery store and you're like he's

the grocery store and you're like he's like yeah man I'm I'm out of the church.

like yeah man I'm I'm out of the church. I'm I'm I'm not a member of the church.

I'm I'm I'm not a member of the church. I got kicked out and you're a member of

I got kicked out and you're a member of the church. You're like

the church. You're like what? I didn't even know about this.

what? I didn't even know about this. What are you talking about? He's like

What are you talking about? He's like well well yeah I mean the elders

well well yeah I mean the elders determined that I was in sin and um yeah

determined that I was in sin and um yeah they I mean they don't follow Matthew

they I mean they don't follow Matthew 18. They don't take it to the church.

18. They don't take it to the church. They just determined it. They have

They just determined it. They have determined I was in sin and they have

determined I was in sin and they have determined to execute uh church

determined to execute uh church discipline on as if they are the

discipline on as if they are the church. Um let's go over while while we

church. Um let's go over while while we are um working through scripture to

are um working through scripture to really fully uh determine this. Hold a

really fully uh determine this. Hold a few other verses. Uh Ephesians 4:32 be

few other verses. Uh Ephesians 4:32 be kind and compassionate to one another

kind and compassionate to one another forgiving one another just as also just

forgiving one another just as also just as God also forgave you in Christ. So

as God also forgave you in Christ. So read read I mean this really important

read read I mean this really important forgive one another as God also forgave

forgive one another as God also forgave you. This means that with our

you. This means that with our forgiveness for brothers and sisters in

forgiveness for brothers and sisters in Christ um we

Christ um we emulate the forgi uh the forgiveness God

emulate the forgi uh the forgiveness God offers. It's it is it is a unilateral

offers. It's it is it is a unilateral forgiveness. We forgive because we are

forgiveness. We forgive because we are instructed to and we are because we are

instructed to and we are because we are emulating God's forgiveness in Christ.

emulating God's forgiveness in Christ. Now, if you go back to what the hard

Now, if you go back to what the hard shepherds over at Apologia believe

shepherds over at Apologia believe apparently in practice, it's like, yeah,

apparently in practice, it's like, yeah, we forgave you, but our forgiveness

we forgave you, but our forgiveness right now is contingent on and can be

right now is contingent on and can be pulled

pulled back anytime that you sin again or we

back anytime that you sin again or we claim you sin again in the same way.

claim you sin again in the same way. Does that mirror the the forgiveness of

Does that mirror the the forgiveness of God in

God in Christ? No. That's that that's a

Christ? No. That's that that's a standard of

standard of judgment. You know, judge not lest ye be

judgment. You know, judge not lest ye be judged is like by the standard that you

judged is like by the standard that you judge, you will be judged. And again, I

judge, you will be judged. And again, I don't want to be standing before Jesus

don't want to be standing before Jesus saying, "Yeah, I withheld. I mean, I

saying, "Yeah, I withheld. I mean, I knew I I knew the parable um in Matthew

knew I I knew the parable um in Matthew 18. I knew that I was supposed to

18. I knew that I was supposed to forgive. Uh but instead I chose to you

forgive. Uh but instead I chose to you see from 1 Corinthians 13:4 I just I

see from 1 Corinthians 13:4 I just I chose to instead keep a record of

chose to instead keep a record of wrongs. I decided that I was just going

wrongs. I decided that I was just going to say to this man I forgave him. I

to say to this man I forgave him. I wasn't actually it wasn't actually going

wasn't actually it wasn't actually going to affect anything I did because I still

to affect anything I did because I still reserve the right to if he sins again

reserve the right to if he sins again and anything remotely resembling this to

and anything remotely resembling this to cancel my prayer forgiveness and return

cancel my prayer forgiveness and return back to whatever step of Matthew 18 uh

back to whatever step of Matthew 18 uh I've determined I forgave him at again

I've determined I forgave him at again let's let's listen to this I know you

let's let's listen to this I know you might think I'm being a a dead horse but

might think I'm being a a dead horse but this is really important let's listen

this is really important let's listen again and um so we we tried the first

again and um so we we tried the first steps of Matthew which didn't go

steps of Matthew which didn't go anywhere that listen to the phone call.

anywhere that listen to the phone call. He's he's not telling the truth. Um, and

He's he's not telling the truth. Um, and I mean in his video last night, he he

I mean in his video last night, he he even tried to define Matthew 18 again

even tried to define Matthew 18 again and said, "Well, you forgave me of this.

and said, "Well, you forgave me of this. If there's another sin, you're you're to

If there's another sin, you're you're to start with a clean slate." Now, that's

start with a clean slate." Now, that's true. Tim Herd, if that's what Tim Herd

true. Tim Herd, if that's what Tim Herd said, and I wasn't privy to the

said, and I wasn't privy to the conversation, but if that's what he

conversation, but if that's what he said, that is the proper biblical

said, that is the proper biblical application of forgiveness.

application of forgiveness. Again, doesn't mean there can't be

Again, doesn't mean there can't be consequences necessarily for prior sin,

consequences necessarily for prior sin, but in terms of our reconciliation as

but in terms of our reconciliation as brothers, we forgive unilaterally when

brothers, we forgive unilaterally when someone comes to us and asks for

someone comes to us and asks for forgiveness and apologizes and

forgiveness and apologizes and confesses. We don't say, "Okay, I I

confesses. We don't say, "Okay, I I accept your confession. I recorded it,

accept your confession. I recorded it, by the way. Kept a secret recording just

by the way. Kept a secret recording just in case. And if you ever do something I

in case. And if you ever do something I think is similar to that, we will return

think is similar to that, we will return back to the stage before I forgave you.

back to the stage before I forgave you. We'll cancel the forgiveness I gave

We'll cancel the forgiveness I gave you." Does Jesus forgive us that way?

you." Does Jesus forgive us that way? And if he doesn't, are we not commanded

And if he doesn't, are we not commanded to forgive as he

to forgive as he forgave? That's how he defined Matthew

forgave? That's how he defined Matthew 18. And I was like, that's not how this

18. And I was like, that's not how this works. Not with abuse. Even Yeah. Not

works. Not with abuse. Even Yeah. Not Not with abuse. There there there's an

Not with abuse. There there there's an exception here. If we have determined

exception here. If we have determined that this is

that this is abuse, unreal. Even within the local

abuse, unreal. Even within the local church, without if it's not in the local

church, without if it's not in the local church, if it's in the local church,

church, if it's in the local church, that's not how this works. If you have

that's not how this works. If you have repented of sin and then you continue in

repented of sin and then you continue in the same sin, you don't start over

the same sin, you don't start over again. You bring it to the next step.

again. You bring it to the next step. Awful. Like, so they're determining his

Awful. Like, so they're determining his repentance by what? By by some unwritten

repentance by what? By by some unwritten rule that you can never speak about a

rule that you can never speak about a person again. Some unwritten rule that

person again. Some unwritten rule that hey, once you've sinned in one way, we

hey, once you've sinned in one way, we can uh exercise judgment that again at

can uh exercise judgment that again at our whim and then go back to their

our whim and then go back to their ministry requirements. Everything is at

ministry requirements. Everything is at their whim. Everything is determined by

their whim. Everything is determined by their own standards. Non-enumerated,

their own standards. Non-enumerated, non-public, non-accessible to anybody.

non-public, non-accessible to anybody. Their personal preferences are going to

Their personal preferences are going to determine whether what you do in the

determine whether what you do in the future is the same sin that you did

future is the same sin that you did before. And if they determine that, then

before. And if they determine that, then you are unrepentant. And they have no

you are unrepentant. And they have no obligation to follow Jesus when he said,

obligation to follow Jesus when he said, "Take it to your brother in private.

"Take it to your brother in private. Follow Matthew 18. Follow church

Follow Matthew 18. Follow church discipline." No obligation. They can

discipline." No obligation. They can just reig on that past forgiveness.

just reig on that past forgiveness. I got a few more verses. I I realize I'm

I got a few more verses. I I realize I'm taking this long, guys. I I apologize

taking this long, guys. I I apologize for the length, but this really this

for the length, but this really this needs to be enumerated out there. It

needs to be enumerated out there. It needs to be accessible.

needs to be accessible. Um let's let's

Um let's let's let's take too long, but we're going to

let's take too long, but we're going to we're going to work through it. Um, a

we're going to work through it. Um, a lot of this this idea that the elders

lot of this this idea that the elders are the disciplinarians of the church

are the disciplinarians of the church that even even though church discipline

that even even though church discipline this process was enumerated by Christ

this process was enumerated by Christ before the office of elder church elder

before the office of elder church elder ever

ever existed even though that's the case

existed even though that's the case there are a lot of guys that push this

there are a lot of guys that push this idea that well uh for practical reasons

idea that well uh for practical reasons or because we're you know the elders are

or because we're you know the elders are more we assume more mature or more

more we assume more mature or more knowledgeable. It makes perfect sense

knowledgeable. It makes perfect sense that they're the ones that should be

that they're the ones that should be conducting church discipline. That

conducting church discipline. That they're the ones that should have the

they're the ones that should have the authority. And by the way, those that

authority. And by the way, those that conduct church discipline have the

conduct church discipline have the authority to put somebody out of the

authority to put somebody out of the fellowship. Now, we see from Matthew

fellowship. Now, we see from Matthew 18:17 that the church makes the decision

18:17 that the church makes the decision to put them out of the fellowship. We

to put them out of the fellowship. We see Paul very clearly say that church

see Paul very clearly say that church discipline against in against the

discipline against in against the Corinthian man was uh executed was was

Corinthian man was uh executed was was applied by the majority by the body by

applied by the majority by the body by the people of this church. Um a lot of

the people of this church. Um a lot of this stems back to a misunderstanding or

this stems back to a misunderstanding or a mislication of what it means to rule

a mislication of what it means to rule to rule in the church. um over to and

to rule in the church. um over to and and by the way the the the the

and by the way the the the the difference between congregational

difference between congregational governance and elder rule governance

governance and elder rule governance really

really pivots almost entirely on on our

pivots almost entirely on on our understanding of 1 Timothy 5:17. The

understanding of 1 Timothy 5:17. The elders who lead well are to be

elders who lead well are to be considered and and and a lot of

considered and and and a lot of translations will say rule well. The

translations will say rule well. The elders who rule well are to be

elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor,

considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor preaching the

especially those who labor preaching the word and teaching.

word and teaching. Now remember and m John MacArthur

Now remember and m John MacArthur described this very well when someone

described this very well when someone asked how much authority you have in the

asked how much authority you have in the lives of your congregants. He said none

lives of your congregants. He said none my authority is uh delegated authority.

my authority is uh delegated authority. It's only as valid as the authority of

It's only as valid as the authority of the word and my feel and and my uh

the word and my feel and and my uh faithful preaching of it. And you see

faithful preaching of it. And you see this in the second half of the verse.

this in the second half of the verse. Those who labor preaching the word and

Those who labor preaching the word and teaching. Now, double honor is is

teaching. Now, double honor is is traditionally thought to mean um taking

traditionally thought to mean um taking care of their material needs, paying

care of their material needs, paying your pastor, uh providing a parsonage or

your pastor, uh providing a parsonage or a house or taking care of him because

a house or taking care of him because he's laboring and preaching the word and

he's laboring and preaching the word and teaching which is such an important

teaching which is such an important goal, such an important thing. Um but

goal, such an important thing. Um but many scholars certainly in the Baptist

many scholars certainly in the Baptist tradition but but you know even outside

tradition but but you know even outside of it uh believe that that that um 1

of it uh believe that that that um 1 Timothy 5:17 has been should have been

Timothy 5:17 has been should have been more accurately rendered when it says

more accurately rendered when it says especially should have been more

especially should have been more accurately rendered as um an indicative

accurately rendered as um an indicative of the reason why they're considered

of the reason why they're considered worthy of double honor. So it might you

worthy of double honor. So it might you know that we could say maybe the uh the

know that we could say maybe the uh the protesty a paraphrase of this or um

protesty a paraphrase of this or um would be the elders who lead well are to

would be the elders who lead well are to be considered worthy of double honor

be considered worthy of double honor meaning the ones who labor at preaching

meaning the ones who labor at preaching the word and teaching. This is because

the word and teaching. This is because they labor in preaching and teaching and

they labor in preaching and teaching and that's where we find the core and again

that's where we find the core and again go back to MacArthur saying I don't have

go back to MacArthur saying I don't have ruling authority in your life. I have

ruling authority in your life. I have teaching authority. You have the

teaching authority. You have the authority of the pulpit, the authority

authority of the pulpit, the authority of the public proclamation and teaching

of the public proclamation and teaching of the word amongst the body to the

of the word amongst the body to the gathered assembly. That's the nature of

gathered assembly. That's the nature of this leading. And so we said, we'll say,

this leading. And so we said, we'll say, well, yeah, but it says rule. Well, what

well, yeah, but it says rule. Well, what does rule mean? Rule. Rule it means that

does rule mean? Rule. Rule it means that they have the preeminence in the

they have the preeminence in the gathered body. They're the teacher.

gathered body. They're the teacher. Don't stand up in the pews and start

Don't stand up in the pews and start trying to teach over the top of them.

trying to teach over the top of them. The elders are the ones who do the the

The elders are the ones who do the the teaching and preaching within the

teaching and preaching within the church. The ruling is is is to rule well

church. The ruling is is is to rule well is to properly divide the scripture to

is to properly divide the scripture to prop properly preach and teach it. Think

prop properly preach and teach it. Think think like an an a referee rules. They

think like an an a referee rules. They make a ruling or a judge makes a ruling

make a ruling or a judge makes a ruling on what is and isn't true or proper. Um

on what is and isn't true or proper. Um a referee makes a ruling about that was

a referee makes a ruling about that was a foul or that wasn't a foul. This is

a foul or that wasn't a foul. This is the the the role of the teachers and

the the the role of the teachers and preachers to properly divide the word of

preachers to properly divide the word of God. To tell you this is true from the

God. To tell you this is true from the word and this is not true from the word.

word and this is not true from the word. That's what we're talking about here.

That's what we're talking about here. And verse 19, do not receive an

And verse 19, do not receive an accusation against an elder except on

accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin reprove in the

Those who continue in sin reprove in the presence of all so that the rest also

presence of all so that the rest also will be fearful. Now, some some

will be fearful. Now, some some translations say verse 20 um those

translations say verse 20 um those elders who continue in sin, which of

elders who continue in sin, which of course would make perfect sense because

course would make perfect sense because we're talking about um church discipline

we're talking about um church discipline as applied to an elder. Now, what you'll

as applied to an elder. Now, what you'll find hard shepherds do, and Jeff opened

find hard shepherds do, and Jeff opened up that meandering, repetitive

up that meandering, repetitive three-hour podcast back in 2020 or

three-hour podcast back in 2020 or whenever it was uh with this verse with

whenever it was uh with this verse with 1 Timothy 5:19, do not receive an

1 Timothy 5:19, do not receive an accusation against an elder except on

accusation against an elder except on the basis of truth. And it says, why did

the basis of truth. And it says, why did he invoke that? Why do he invoke

he invoke that? Why do he invoke that? Because he expects a higher

that? Because he expects a higher standard to accuse an elder than to

standard to accuse an elder than to accuse anybody else.

accuse anybody else. But does this verse teach that? No. This

But does this verse teach that? No. This verse goes back just like uh Matthew 18

verse goes back just like uh Matthew 18 goes back all the way to Deuteronomy and

goes back all the way to Deuteronomy and says the standard for receiving an

says the standard for receiving an accusation amongst the people here is

accusation amongst the people here is the basis of two or three witnesses. We

the basis of two or three witnesses. We see this in step two of Matthew 18 as

see this in step two of Matthew 18 as u Matthew 18 says you can't win your

u Matthew 18 says you can't win your brother in private bring two or three

brother in private bring two or three witnesses. this before you invoke the

witnesses. this before you invoke the disciplinary authority of the body of

disciplinary authority of the body of Christ, this charge needs to be

Christ, this charge needs to be established based off of two or three

established based off of two or three witnesses. So why why would this be in

witnesses. So why why would this be in uh an instruction talking about elders

uh an instruction talking about elders in 1 Timothy 5? This is honoring the

in 1 Timothy 5? This is honoring the elders is is how this is described in

elders is is how this is described in the in the LSB which is like the the

the in the LSB which is like the the kind of the grace community church

kind of the grace community church master seminary translation. Um very

master seminary translation. Um very similar to the NASB. Um they say the

similar to the NASB. Um they say the elders who lead well worthy of double

elders who lead well worthy of double honor. Uh scripture says you shall not

honor. Uh scripture says you shall not muzzle the ox while it's threshing. In

muzzle the ox while it's threshing. In other words, like uh this work is so

other words, like uh this work is so important that uh if you can he's worthy

important that uh if you can he's worthy of he's deserving of you taking care of

of he's deserving of you taking care of his material needs so he can focus on

his material needs so he can focus on this. Uh labor is worthy of his wages.

this. Uh labor is worthy of his wages. Um and then it says do not receive an

Um and then it says do not receive an accusation against an elder except on

accusation against an elder except on the basis of two witnesses. Why is this

the basis of two witnesses. Why is this reiterated? Because an elder would just

reiterated? Because an elder would just be all in the in the same category as

be all in the in the same category as everybody else with Matthew 18. Elder

everybody else with Matthew 18. Elder sins against me. I take it to him in

sins against me. I take it to him in private. I he he repents. Um I forgive

private. I he he repents. Um I forgive him. I've won my brother. That's the end

him. I've won my brother. That's the end of it. If he doesn't, now it's two or

of it. If he doesn't, now it's two or three witnesses. If he if he continues

three witnesses. If he if he continues in the sin, now we bring it before the

in the sin, now we bring it before the church. This gets pretty messy obviously

church. This gets pretty messy obviously when it's a church elder. But this is

when it's a church elder. But this is reiterated here to remind uh uh the

reiterated here to remind uh uh the church that just because you know the

church that just because you know the elder is held to a higher standard. He's

elder is held to a higher standard. He's the example. He's in a teaching office.

the example. He's in a teaching office. He's leading. He um we're going to be

He's leading. He um we're going to be looking to him to set the example for

looking to him to set the example for righteous conduct. We're going to be

righteous conduct. We're going to be looking to him for teaching um and all

looking to him for teaching um and all of these things. Just because that's a

of these things. Just because that's a higher standard, he still has the

higher standard, he still has the benefit of being innocent until proven

benefit of being innocent until proven guilty. This doesn't mean you can leap

guilty. This doesn't mean you can leap over. You can subvert Matthew 18 and say

over. You can subvert Matthew 18 and say something like, "Well, because that that

something like, "Well, because that that that elder is held to a higher standard,

that elder is held to a higher standard, I mean, even the accusation he did

I mean, even the accusation he did something is bad enough." I mean, how

something is bad enough." I mean, how often do we see this happening on in

often do we see this happening on in reformed circles online? Well, you know,

reformed circles online? Well, you know, it's not that it's not the nature of the

it's not that it's not the nature of the evidence, it's the seriousness of the

evidence, it's the seriousness of the charge. We really can't have our our

charge. We really can't have our our pastors being accused of things and then

pastors being accused of things and then you find out later like he didn't really

you find out later like he didn't really do that. accus false accusation. It's

do that. accus false accusation. It's like, well, I mean, the accusation was

like, well, I mean, the accusation was messy. This is saying that your elders

messy. This is saying that your elders held elders are held to that higher

held elders are held to that higher standard, but they still have the

standard, but they still have the benefit of due process. You don't get to

benefit of due process. You don't get to accuse them of things and and skip over

accuse them of things and and skip over it. That's what it's saying. And yet

it. That's what it's saying. And yet those who continue in sin, what is this?

those who continue in sin, what is this? This is an expression of the third step

This is an expression of the third step of Matthew 18. Re reprove in the

of Matthew 18. Re reprove in the presence of all. is saying uh again the

presence of all. is saying uh again the elder is under the same process as

elder is under the same process as everybody else and

everybody else and conversely just as much as he has the

conversely just as much as he has the benefit if he's accused if someone's

benefit if he's accused if someone's accusing him of sin he has the same

accusing him of sin he has the same Matthew 18 benefit as everybody else

Matthew 18 benefit as everybody else this charge has to be established and

this charge has to be established and then the church actually has to decide

then the church actually has to decide at some point again if it's not if if he

at some point again if it's not if if he doesn't admit that what he did was wrong

doesn't admit that what he did was wrong like Tim Herd did and and ask for

like Tim Herd did and and ask for forgiveness and and and you apologize

forgiveness and and and you apologize and confess and these things. Uh he

and confess and these things. Uh he still he still this is brought before

still he still this is brought before the church. He doesn't get to have just

the church. He doesn't get to have just because he's an elder, he doesn't get to

because he's an elder, he doesn't get to have his sin brushed under the rug. He

have his sin brushed under the rug. He doesn't have a special set of rules.

doesn't have a special set of rules. Now, what does it sound like? Sounds

Now, what does it sound like? Sounds like he doesn't have a special set of

like he doesn't have a special set of rules if he's the accused. And he

rules if he's the accused. And he doesn't have a special set of rules if

doesn't have a special set of rules if he's the accuser. He doesn't have

he's the accuser. He doesn't have special dispensation to conduct church

special dispensation to conduct church discipline or grab the other elders and

discipline or grab the other elders and have a little uh you know private confab

have a little uh you know private confab and they decide what church discipline

and they decide what church discipline is going to be and determine somebody's

is going to be and determine somebody's in sin and put them out of the out of

in sin and put them out of the out of the body. And yet our shepherds do this.

the body. And yet our shepherds do this. This has been done at a lot this happens

This has been done at a lot this happens at a lot of churches not just Apologia.

at a lot of churches not just Apologia. They just happen to be one of the most

They just happen to be one of the most egregious examples but this is done

egregious examples but this is done consistently and it should not be done.

consistently and it should not be done. Um again I I We we need to to push back

Um again I I We we need to to push back against this idea that there is um a

against this idea that there is um a second an upper class of Christian

second an upper class of Christian within the church. Um special rules,

within the church. Um special rules, special dispensation, special special

special dispensation, special special determination to decide the nature of

determination to decide the nature of ministry. No call to actually invoke uh

ministry. No call to actually invoke uh the congregation whatsoever in

the congregation whatsoever in discipline, in ministry determination.

discipline, in ministry determination. This is how we get these guys online

This is how we get these guys online saying, "I want to talk to your elders."

saying, "I want to talk to your elders." That that falls in line with what they

That that falls in line with what they believe, which is that the elders are at

believe, which is that the elders are at a s at a superior level of um of

a s at a superior level of um of spiritual leadership in all things.

spiritual leadership in all things. Again, not just like John MacArthur said

Again, not just like John MacArthur said um relegated to the essential and very

um relegated to the essential and very important work of preaching and teaching

important work of preaching and teaching of the word. John MacArthur said, "I

of the word. John MacArthur said, "I have no authority in your life." You

have no authority in your life." You know, he's a fellow believer. He's

know, he's a fellow believer. He's shephering the flock among him while the

shephering the flock among him while the guys apologia apparently are trying to

guys apologia apparently are trying to shepherd the flock beneath them. There's

shepherd the flock beneath them. There's a big

a big difference. And I know those guys may

difference. And I know those guys may listen to what I'm saying here and and

listen to what I'm saying here and and and say the same thing. He's slander.

and say the same thing. He's slander. That's slander. He when in reality it's

That's slander. He when in reality it's like I just disagree with him. I

like I just disagree with him. I disagree with him. Okay. I mean, bring

disagree with him. Okay. I mean, bring your scriptural case.

your scriptural case. You know, in no sense do my el church

You know, in no sense do my el church elders have special authority to

elders have special authority to discipline me over your preferences or

discipline me over your preferences or the fact that you've been that you

the fact that you've been that you disagree or you feel like I made you

disagree or you feel like I made you look bad or or you think because you're

look bad or or you think because you're an elder that you have some sort of

an elder that you have some sort of special protection. You can invoke 1

special protection. You can invoke 1 Timothy 5 uh uh 19 all day long, but all

Timothy 5 uh uh 19 all day long, but all that all that reiterates is you have the

that all that reiterates is you have the same um innocent till proven guilty

same um innocent till proven guilty privileges of everybody else. That's

privileges of everybody else. That's that's what it says. Um, let's let's

that's what it says. Um, let's let's listen to

listen to uh one last clip here if I have it

uh one last clip here if I have it pulled up of um Pearson. Um, and again,

pulled up of um Pearson. Um, and again, like I think at this point Jeff had had

like I think at this point Jeff had had talked about Matt 1 Timothy 5:19

talked about Matt 1 Timothy 5:19 multiple times, but about halfway

multiple times, but about halfway through before James White leaves, uh,

through before James White leaves, uh, uh, Luke Pearson has to reiterate it yet

uh, Luke Pearson has to reiterate it yet again. A couple verses here I want to

again. A couple verses here I want to read. I meant to mention them a minute

read. I meant to mention them a minute ago. So before I forget, I think this is

ago. So before I forget, I think this is really important. Uh 1 Timothy uh

really important. Uh 1 Timothy uh 5:19-20, do not admit a charge against

5:19-20, do not admit a charge against an elder, which you have three of them

an elder, which you have three of them sitting right

here. So I mean, you can see why he's invoking the verse. He's saying, "Hey,

invoking the verse. He's saying, "Hey, you have three sitting right here. We're

you have three sitting right here. We're elders. We're elders." I mean, the Bible

elders. We're elders." I mean, the Bible says we have special protection against

accusation. No, it doesn't. Not what that verse teaches in the slightest.

that verse teaches in the slightest. Except on the evidence of two to three

Except on the evidence of two to three witnesses in verse 20. So now he's

witnesses in verse 20. So now he's claiming here, by the way, that I guess

claiming here, by the way, that I guess that that that Tim making podcast videos

that that that Tim making podcast videos about Jeff Durban is an accusation

about Jeff Durban is an accusation against an elder. You know, I mean, Tim

against an elder. You know, I mean, Tim did offer an accusation against Jeff

did offer an accusation against Jeff Durban that Jeff selectively edited a

Durban that Jeff selectively edited a clip to make Tim seem like a liar when

clip to make Tim seem like a liar when he didn't lie. That's true, though. I

he didn't lie. That's true, though. I mean, that's that's online. You can

mean, that's that's online. You can examine that for yourself.

examine that for yourself. Um, similarly, and I don't know if I

Um, similarly, and I don't know if I have the clip for this or not, but

have the clip for this or not, but similar. Yeah, you know, we we'll we'll

similar. Yeah, you know, we we'll we'll do it. You guys have stuck with me long

do it. You guys have stuck with me long enough. I don't want to I don't want to

enough. I don't want to I don't want to leave this one short. I I will find it

leave this one short. I I will find it here in a second. Um, but let's listen

here in a second. Um, but let's listen to to Luke screw up the rest of this

to to Luke screw up the rest of this real quick. Sitting right here, except

real quick. Sitting right here, except on the evidence of two to three

on the evidence of two to three witnesses in verse 20, this is key. As

witnesses in verse 20, this is key. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke

for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so that they

them in the presence of all so that they or so that the the rest may stand in

or so that the the rest may stand in fear. So, does verse 20 uh apply to Tim

fear. So, does verse 20 uh apply to Tim Herd specifically? No. Tim Herd's not an

Herd specifically? No. Tim Herd's not an elder. Verse 20 is talking about elders.

elder. Verse 20 is talking about elders. So I I mean I mean you know maybe maybe

So I I mean I mean you know maybe maybe Luke doesn't know that that some New

Luke doesn't know that that some New Testament translations make that very

Testament translations make that very explicit and others just I mean they

explicit and others just I mean they they just trust you to understand that

they just trust you to understand that it's in the context of charges against

it's in the context of charges against elders. Uh but but he turns around here

elders. Uh but but he turns around here and he says, "Well, you know, 1 Timothy

and he says, "Well, you know, 1 Timothy 5:19 means, you know, implies that

5:19 means, you know, implies that there's a higher standard for accusing

there's a higher standard for accusing an elder." But 1 Timothy 5:20

an elder." But 1 Timothy 5:20 uh doesn't apply to elder and that

uh doesn't apply to elder and that applies to you rebuke you rebuked Tim

applies to you rebuke you rebuked Tim Heerd out in the open by releasing an

Heerd out in the open by releasing an anonymous

anonymous recording. That seems to be what he is

recording. That seems to be what he is saying here.

saying here. So, one last one last thing here before

So, one last one last thing here before we conclude this protest tonight. And

we conclude this protest tonight. And Tim Tim Herd had, you know, I I realize

Tim Tim Herd had, you know, I I realize we're talking about a an old conflict at

we're talking about a an old conflict at this point, but the problem the

this point, but the problem the fundamental problems and the the false

fundamental problems and the the false scriptural teaching that leads to it

scriptural teaching that leads to it still remain, which is why we're talking

still remain, which is why we're talking about it. Uh but the one of the things

about it. Uh but the one of the things that that Jeff Durban used to justify

that that Jeff Durban used to justify uh this his three-hour long rant and

uh this his three-hour long rant and releasing the the the penitent phone

releasing the the the penitent phone call and and withholding forgiveness

call and and withholding forgiveness apparently at least according to Luke

apparently at least according to Luke Pearson, you know, re withdrawing

Pearson, you know, re withdrawing forgiveness that was supposedly offered.

forgiveness that was supposedly offered. The reason why all of that was

The reason why all of that was supposedly justifiable

supposedly justifiable uh was um that Tim was continuing to

uh was um that Tim was continuing to lie. Continuing to lie. And some of that

lie. Continuing to lie. And some of that might have been like, well, he lied

might have been like, well, he lied about us on the uh you know on on other

about us on the uh you know on on other videos, but a big part of it was well

videos, but a big part of it was well Tim lied by saying that uh we never that

Tim lied by saying that uh we never that I never contacted him, which you know

I never contacted him, which you know Jeff had to chop off the end of what Tim

Jeff had to chop off the end of what Tim said in order to mischaracterize what

said in order to mischaracterize what Tim had said. But but another part of it

Tim had said. But but another part of it was Jeff basically claiming um you know

was Jeff basically claiming um you know Tim said that I never preach the gospel.

Tim said that I never preach the gospel. I never preach the gospel. And obviously

I never preach the gospel. And obviously I I I I preach the gospel all the time.

I I I I preach the gospel all the time. I mean I I record it. I mean it's it's

I mean I I record it. I mean it's it's all over YouTube me preaching the gospel

all over YouTube me preaching the gospel and doing and doing all these things. Um

and doing and doing all these things. Um but I I want to watch that clip and

but I I want to watch that clip and discuss it a little bit because this is

discuss it a little bit because this is another mischaracterization. This is

another mischaracterization. This is this is another

this is another like like Karen Pearl clutching

like like Karen Pearl clutching characterization of the situation which

characterization of the situation which I'll explain but let's he's trying to

I'll explain but let's he's trying to minimize it saying I was very gracious

minimize it saying I was very gracious my critique I was just saying like

my critique I was just saying like presupp like we need to focus more on

presupp like we need to focus more on like making sure the gospel is in there

like making sure the gospel is in there succinctly. So I want you to know over

succinctly. So I want you to know over this um last summer uh Tim started

this um last summer uh Tim started publishing videos and and and closer to

publishing videos and and and closer to us too. We started publishing videos

us too. We started publishing videos about me with my picture, my face,

about me with my picture, my face, saying, "Let's play what would you

saying, "Let's play what would you rather with Jeff Durban." Uh videos like

rather with Jeff Durban." Uh videos like Jeff Durban attempts to preach the

Jeff Durban attempts to preach the gospel. Uh videos like I think I was

gospel. Uh videos like I think I was wrong about Jeff Durban. So, so I mean,

wrong about Jeff Durban. So, so I mean, you know, Jeff's setting this up, right?

you know, Jeff's setting this up, right? He's setting this up. Hey, if Tim Herd

He's setting this up. Hey, if Tim Herd says Jeff Herd or Jeff Jeff Durban

says Jeff Herd or Jeff Jeff Durban attempts to preach the gospel, I mean,

attempts to preach the gospel, I mean, that's slander already because I don't

that's slander already because I don't just attempt, I actually preach it. you

just attempt, I actually preach it. you know, so obviously Tim Herd offering an

know, so obviously Tim Herd offering an opinion in one of these videos from

opinion in one of these videos from back, you know, that he's going to make

back, you know, that he's going to make commentary about this. It's not

commentary about this. It's not categorically slander.

categorically slander. Uh there's just the videos and of course

Uh there's just the videos and of course there was a Patreon phone call that I

there was a Patreon phone call that I was sent uh where he's also talking

was sent uh where he's also talking about me in that phone call. No

about me in that phone call. No conversation was made between Tim and I.

conversation was made between Tim and I. He never contacted me to say, "Hey,

He never contacted me to say, "Hey, Jeeoff, can I get clarification? Like,

Jeeoff, can I get clarification? Like, can I make sure I understand this?" Like

can I make sure I understand this?" Like he said he would do here in the

he said he would do here in the confession. He didn't do that. He

confession. He didn't do that. He didn't. He didn't. He committed to um

didn't. He didn't. He committed to um Jeff committed to allow Tim to call if

Jeff committed to allow Tim to call if he had questions and Tim asked, "Can I

he had questions and Tim asked, "Can I call you if I have

call you if I have questions, but he might not have

questions, but he might not have questions about everything like he would

questions about everything like he would call if he needs clarification, but if

call if he needs clarification, but if he's got an opinion that he wants to put

he's got an opinion that he wants to put out there that he does have questions

out there that he does have questions about, he's he's not he wasn't obligated

about, he's he's not he wasn't obligated to take advantage of the access that he

to take advantage of the access that he asked for, it's ridiculous." He just

asked for, it's ridiculous." He just started going on and repeating the same

started going on and repeating the same pattern of sin that he had years ago

pattern of sin that he had years ago that he had committed against us for

that he had committed against us for years. Yeah, you're just supposed to

years. Yeah, you're just supposed to assume that's true. I mean, we we we've

assume that's true. I mean, we we we've said it, you know, 45 times, so

said it, you know, 45 times, so obviously it must be true. This

obviously it must be true. This particular video I'm about to play for

particular video I'm about to play for you right now, and if you guys have your

you right now, and if you guys have your audio turned down, make sure you turn it

audio turned down, make sure you turn it up for this one. Um, just because I

up for this one. Um, just because I think he talks kind of low in it. Uh,

think he talks kind of low in it. Uh, this is from August the 2nd of this

this is from August the 2nd of this year. The title of the video is I think

year. The title of the video is I think I was wrong about Jeff Durban. I think I

I was wrong about Jeff Durban. I think I was wrong about Jeff Durban. And um,

was wrong about Jeff Durban. And um, this is at about the 10-minute mark.

this is at about the 10-minute mark. Here is what Tim said on August 2nd,

Here is what Tim said on August 2nd, 2019. You can see it if you didn't if

2019. You can see it if you didn't if you didn't haven't heard it already.

you didn't haven't heard it already. So to be gracious after exposing his

So to be gracious after exposing his failure on that particular podcast, see

failure on that particular podcast, see because I know that Jeff

because I know that Jeff Durban knows the gospel and I know that

Durban knows the gospel and I know that he can preach it clearly.

he can preach it clearly. So, I went looking for a short

So, I went looking for a short clip, a short clip of him presenting the

clip, a short clip of him presenting the gospel

gospel clearly so that I could put it at the

clearly so that I could put it at the end of the podcast like, "Hey, Jeff,

end of the podcast like, "Hey, Jeff, this is what you should have done. This

this is what you should have done. This is what you should have done right

is what you should have done right here."

here." Um, and

uh I couldn't find one. Now, be before Jeff offers this, and

Now, be before Jeff offers this, and again, this video is old, obviously, but

again, this video is old, obviously, but before he offers this his this

before he offers this his this hyperbolic reaction, note that Tim said,

hyperbolic reaction, note that Tim said, "I know Jeff can preach the gospel. I

"I know Jeff can preach the gospel. I know he can preach it clearly." Well,

know he can preach it clearly." Well, and then says, "I couldn't find a short

and then says, "I couldn't find a short clip of him doing it." Okay. So, how do

clip of him doing it." Okay. So, how do you know he can preach it clearly if you

you know he can preach it clearly if you can't find anything on the internet of

can't find anything on the internet of him preaching the gospel? That doesn't

him preaching the gospel? That doesn't even make

even make sense in the context that doesn't make

sense in the context that doesn't make sense because Tim just said he knows

sense because Tim just said he knows that Jeff can preach the gospel.

that Jeff can preach the gospel. He know he knows he can preach the go.

He know he knows he can preach the go. He know he know he know he he knows that

He know he know he know he he knows that Jeff knows the gospel. He knows he can

Jeff knows the gospel. He knows he can preach

preach it and yet say then says I went looking

it and yet say then says I went looking for a short clip and I couldn't find

for a short clip and I couldn't find one. Now we anybody can you know YouTube

one. Now we anybody can you know YouTube search you know apology video and see

search you know apology video and see examples of Jeff Durban preaching the

examples of Jeff Durban preaching the gospel.

gospel. So is it is it realistic to think that

So is it is it realistic to think that that Tim Herd would have after saying he

that Tim Herd would have after saying he knows that Jeff can preach the

knows that Jeff can preach the gospel and doing podcast you know

gospel and doing podcast you know multiple podcasts talking about Jeff's

multiple podcasts talking about Jeff's you know uh apologetic method in those

you know uh apologetic method in those podcasts Tim reviewed videos where Jeff

podcasts Tim reviewed videos where Jeff preached the gospel in those podcasts

preached the gospel in those podcasts and then says I couldn't find a short

and then says I couldn't find a short clip of him preaching the gospel.

clip of him preaching the gospel. to put at the end of my podcast. Is it

to put at the end of my podcast. Is it reasonable to think that Tim was making

reasonable to think that Tim was making a claim that Jeff Durban doesn't preach

a claim that Jeff Durban doesn't preach the gospel or never preaches it

the gospel or never preaches it succinctly or any of that kind of stuff

succinctly or any of that kind of stuff after he said he knows he preaches it?

after he said he knows he preaches it? Is that reasonable? It's It's not

Is that reasonable? It's It's not reasonable, but listen to what Jeff does

reasonable, but listen to what Jeff does with it.

We have almost 1,200 videos up, over 10 years of

1,200 videos up, over 10 years of ministry, countless examples of on the

ministry, countless examples of on the street evangelism, gospel preaching,

street evangelism, gospel preaching, street preaching, speaking around the

street preaching, speaking around the world preaching the gospel messages. Let

world preaching the gospel messages. Let me just say this, brothers and sisters,

me just say this, brothers and sisters, please hear me on this. As a pastor,

please hear me on this. As a pastor, with a man who is sinned against us,

with a man who is sinned against us, stop. Go on. Flag on the play. He can't

stop. Go on. Flag on the play. He can't just say, listen to what I'm about to

just say, listen to what I'm about to explain to you. He's got it qualified.

explain to you. He's got it qualified. As a pastor, like from a normal

As a pastor, like from a normal believer,

believer, uh you you don't need to take it quite

uh you you don't need to take it quite as seriously, but as a pastor, you

as seriously, but as a pastor, you should really listen. You know, again,

should really listen. You know, again, he's implying I have superior spiritual

he's implying I have superior spiritual access. I have superior wisdom. I have a

access. I have superior wisdom. I have a superior position by which to make my

superior position by which to make my case. He does this all the time.

case. He does this all the time. Fiveyear

Fiveyear history. This accusation is not a small

history. This accusation is not a small accusation.

accusation. It's not even an accusation really. It

It's not even an accusation really. It cuts to the heart of who we are as a

cuts to the heart of who we are as a ministry. When you allege that the

ministry. When you allege that the minister of the gospel, you can't find

minister of the gospel, you can't find in,200 videos, you couldn't find it. Me,

in,200 videos, you couldn't find it. Me, it's not that's not what Tim said. I

it's not that's not what Tim said. I couldn't find a short

couldn't find a short clip. Now, I know Tim well enough to

clip. Now, I know Tim well enough to know he's not the most techy guy out

know he's not the most techy guy out there. If you watch Bible Thumbing Wing

there. If you watch Bible Thumbing Wing that, you know, he's I mean, I'm not

that, you know, he's I mean, I'm not perfect with it, but I'm a little you a

perfect with it, but I'm a little you a little bit better than Tim is. Uh he

little bit better than Tim is. Uh he said, "I couldn't find a short

said, "I couldn't find a short clip." Not that I couldn't find any

clip." Not that I couldn't find any example of you preaching the gospel, but

example of you preaching the gospel, but I couldn't find a short clip. And again,

I couldn't find a short clip. And again, the absurdity of saying from Tim Herd, a

the absurdity of saying from Tim Herd, a guy that's watched a lot of your content

guy that's watched a lot of your content apparently, and was very, you know,

apparently, and was very, you know, seemed on that phone call very anxious

seemed on that phone call very anxious to make amends and be buddies

to make amends and be buddies again. that he that you think that he

again. that he that you think that he would just blanket turn around and say,

would just blanket turn around and say, "I've never seen I've never seen Jeff

"I've never seen I've never seen Jeff preach the gospel ever." You I mean, but

preach the gospel ever." You I mean, but that's that's what Jeff wants you to

that's that's what Jeff wants you to think this accusation was. He's

think this accusation was. He's succinctly preaching the gospel. Like

succinctly preaching the gospel. Like you just you can't find it. I tried. I

you just you can't find it. I tried. I couldn't find it. That is not a low

couldn't find it. That is not a low allegation. That is the heart of

allegation. That is the heart of everything. If let me just say this. If

everything. If let me just say this. If I can't succinctly preach the gospel as

I can't succinctly preach the gospel as a minister, I'm disqualified to be a

a minister, I'm disqualified to be a minister. This is no small allegation.

minister. This is no small allegation. Tim, it's not even the allegation he

Tim, it's not even the allegation he made. I mean, this and this has been

made. I mean, this and this has been talked about before, but but this

talked about before, but but this supposed lie that Tim Herd told again

supposed lie that Tim Herd told again like which defies all logic is is this

like which defies all logic is is this most absurd thing ever is is one of the

most absurd thing ever is is one of the reasons one of the reasons that Jeff

reasons one of the reasons that Jeff felt justified to do what he

felt justified to do what he did.

Um, yeah. I mean, I wanted to make sure that I that I got a a response to that

that I that I got a a response to that on record. It doesn't even make

on record. It doesn't even make sense. Thinking that Tim actually said,

sense. Thinking that Tim actually said, "You know, Bridge of Gospel doesn't even

"You know, Bridge of Gospel doesn't even make

make sense." And the only reason I wanted to

sense." And the only reason I wanted to talk about at the end of the podcast is

talk about at the end of the podcast is because I ran across it and it was

because I ran across it and it was ridiculous. You know, I wanted a an

ridiculous. You know, I wanted a an explanation of it to be on record. But

explanation of it to be on record. But this is yeah this this is the

this is yeah this this is the [Music]

[Music] um this is what hard shephering looks

um this is what hard shephering looks like. And like with every false

like. And like with every false practice, like with every um problematic

practice, like with every um problematic practice, there is always always false

practice, there is always always false biblical application, false

biblical application, false understanding, false teaching behind it.

understanding, false teaching behind it. In the case of hard shepherds, um, like

In the case of hard shepherds, um, like like what they promoted, Apologia, it is

like what they promoted, Apologia, it is a false teaching on discipline. It's

a false teaching on discipline. It's false teaching on forgiveness, which is

false teaching on forgiveness, which is probably the most offensive one,

probably the most offensive one, honestly. It's false teaching on

honestly. It's false teaching on ecclesiology as far as where the

ecclesiology as far as where the authority lies, whether it lies with the

authority lies, whether it lies with the body of Christ or with a subset of the

body of Christ or with a subset of the body of Christ. And like uh like John

body of Christ. And like uh like John MacArthur said, um, elders don't have

MacArthur said, um, elders don't have walking authority in your life. They

walking authority in your life. They have authority um delegated by the their

have authority um delegated by the their faithful preaching and teaching of the

faithful preaching and teaching of the word of God. Thank you for listening to

word of God. Thank you for listening to this Protesty tonight. Thank you for

this Protesty tonight. Thank you for joining me. Uh stay tuned to Protesty

joining me. Uh stay tuned to Protesty for all of your latest in Christian

for all of your latest in Christian Plymington sermon news. See you again

Plymington sermon news. See you again real soon. As always, simple refer.

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YouTube Transcript:Protestia Tonight: Hard Forgiveness