0:01 foreign [Music]
0:06 [Music] [Applause]
0:12 so the other thing you made me think of
0:15 is This I know I was guilty of thinking
0:17 of it and what you would consider the
0:20 traditional psychology way where all
0:23 these problematic people narcissistic
0:25 people character disordered people they
0:28 must be doing what they do because deep
0:30 down they have an insecurity and deep
0:33 down they're in denial that can be true
0:37 right that can be true yes the deadly
0:39 assumption is that it's always true
0:42 that's the deadly assumption
0:45 yeah and by the way more often than not
0:47 yeah and by the way
0:58 if you're loving in the calling out of
1:01 the maladaptive Behavior
1:03 and if you're proposing something better
1:07 and that's something better will fix things
1:08 things
1:10 so what
1:15 a person will have to face their demons
1:16 and they'll have to work them through
1:19 and you can help them with that right
1:22 but you don't have to devote one
1:25 minute's attention to the underpinnings
1:28 the underpinnings of the disturbance
1:32 it doesn't deserve even it it maybe
1:36 deserves some understanding on your part
1:39 some empathy if there are deep roots to
1:41 it you know maybe an abusive childhood
1:44 experience etc etc
1:47 it maybe warrants your understanding
1:56 it has no real place in the turnaround
2:00 it's somebody owns somebody else's own
2:02 internal business and you can help them
2:04 with that and they will have to reckon
2:07 with it if you focus on the behavior right
2:08 right
2:11 I think as you would call a lot of
2:13 neurotic people I think it gives them a
2:16 sense of ease when they think oh okay
2:19 they must just be like me full of
2:22 exactly and it makes them feel better to
2:25 say oh they must be covering up an
2:27 insecurity they must have really low
2:30 self-esteem and it helps them to see the
2:32 character disordered person or
2:35 narcissistic person in a different kind
2:37 of light and it gives them hope that
2:40 with enough love or with enough
2:42 attention or enough understanding things
2:45 will get better and there's the problem
2:47 there's the problem right there how's
2:50 that working for you you've been you've
2:53 been doing that for 20 years right and
2:54 the therapist has been doing the same
2:57 thing how's that working right and I was
2:59 reading a book from a therapist just
3:01 yesterday where that's exactly what she
3:04 was proposing to oh just be very
3:07 understanding right and like that'll get
3:09 them to see the light if you're just
3:11 understanding enough you don't get
3:14 sucked into their Madness it'll all come
3:16 to it'll all be okay yeah and I was like
3:19 nah Dr Simon wouldn't like that yeah and
3:21 the way you also described it though too
3:24 it made me think that a lot of the
3:26 character disordered people it's almost
3:29 like they've manipulated a lot of the
3:32 therapists out there
3:34 to get them to think oh yeah we're just
3:36 covering up an insecurity and it helps
3:38 them to kind of pull the wool over their
3:41 eyes a little bit sometimes right now
3:43 yeah you know these dynamics that have
3:45 to do let's just take the dynamic of
3:49 self-esteem and narcissism the Dynamics
3:51 can work either way
3:55 for example I might develop a a
3:58 braggadocious kind of self-presentation
4:01 a Bravado as a compensation for
4:05 underlying feelings of insecurity that
4:07 can happen but it can work the other way
4:11 too I also could have so chronically
4:15 overestimated my worth because I was so
4:18 overly praised and so overly indulged
4:22 and spoiled rotten as a child that I
4:25 developed no legitimate self-respect at
4:29 all it can work that way too but both of
4:32 those things are irrelevant to the issue
4:34 of what has to change
4:37 and what has to change is the behavior
4:40 and when it starts to change then the
4:44 person has to work on what's been
4:46 underneath it because all of a sudden
4:49 their usual way of coping has been
4:52 stymied and now they have to figure out
4:55 what am I going to do to solve this
4:58 problem whatever its Origins whether I
5:00 was overly pampered and indulged and
5:02 spoiled rotten or I didn't get enough
5:05 attention or
5:07 affirmation or whatever the case may be
5:11 what am I going to do now to
5:12 to
5:17 properly satisfy these needs and desires
5:21 and that's where all the magic happens
5:23 therapists do the same thing
5:26 relationship Partners do by and large
5:31 they waste time and energy trying to get
5:34 people to see and understand what they
5:35 probably already see and understand
5:37 better than you do right
5:39 right
5:42 and I know you had a good example in
5:44 your book character disturbance about a
5:47 teenage kid that went into a facility
5:51 and almost instantly he had a list a
5:54 laundry list of all these things true
5:59 taken out but yes right and one of the
6:01 head uh clinicians there I was like oh
6:03 he must be covering up some sort of
6:06 insecurity that he has to do all this
6:08 and it's like well no that's kind of
6:10 leading you down the wrong path but I
6:12 like the way you say it the behaviors
6:15 focus on the behaviors it doesn't matter
6:18 if they're covering up an insecurity or
6:20 they really just do have that much of a
6:24 entitled sense of self it doesn't matter
6:27 and when I say that it doesn't matter
6:28 I'm not saying that the two aren't
6:31 connected what I'm saying is that's the
6:33 individual's work
6:36 and they will actually do the work
6:45 they will actually do the work for example
6:46 example
6:51 if if a young child really is determined
6:53 really is determined to have that piece
6:56 of candy first try is pitching a fit
6:59 Stomps their feet screams and the parent
7:02 just lovingly says
7:05 ain't happening this way
7:08 just not happening right
7:10 eventually they might modify their approach
7:12 approach
7:13 to the point
7:15 where they can get some reinforcement
7:18 and that's how we learn
7:21 not this way but that okay
7:23 okay
7:26 okay that's a good example they work it out
7:27 out
7:29 they're not stupid
7:32 they're not stupid it's the and it's
7:34 theirs to work out and in that process
7:37 they're gaining so much more of the
7:40 right kind of awareness
7:42 don't do their work for them
7:45 don't lay it all out for them
7:48 and and don't do the detective work and
7:49 try to tell them that this is why you
7:52 are the way you are right
7:56 what's the point what is the point I
7:58 think many times it's for the
8:00 therapist's own edification
8:01 same thing as you were mentioning
8:03 earlier for the relationship partners
8:07 for their own edification it helps
8:10 quiet down all the disquiet they feel
8:12 dealing with this person that hasn't
8:15 grown up right
8:17 yeah I think yeah it is for their
8:19 benefit it is for the person dealing
8:21 with them's benefit to see it that way
8:24 and I liked what you also said yet
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