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THE WAY | Group Discussion | Following Jesus Through Obedience | King's Church London | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: THE WAY | Group Discussion | Following Jesus Through Obedience
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[Music]
Welcome. This is our group discussions
video as part of the the way series uh
where we'll be looking at what it means
to follow Jesus through Mark. And my
name is TK and here with me we have the
great Andrew Wilson.
Thank you for that.
So, um, it would be good to just talk a
little bit about the series, I think, up
front and to just kind of set the scene
a little bit. Uh, what what in your mind
as part of because obviously we've been
planning this teaching series and we
want to really encourage the church to
be in groups and we're doing some of the
daily devotional stuff as well.
So, there's lots of like focus on
gathering the church in this moment to
kind of look through the Gospel of Mark.
Uh could you just share a bit about kind
of what what we're what we're doing?
Yeah. What we're doing? So the early
Christians, we now call it Christianity,
right? That's our normal word for it.
And we call ourselves Christians. If
someone says that's who you you know
what's your religion or whatever, you'd
say, "I'm a Christian." In the book of
Acts, you find the early church called
it the way. They didn't really use the
Christians was a word other people used
of them. Uh and and eventually they
owned it and said, "That's great. What a
privilege to be a Christian." But for
initially they called themselves
followers of the way. and they talked
about Christianity as a way. And I think
there something quite powerful and quite
challenging and even subversive. It sort
of it cuts away at something when you
hear the language used of Christianity
as the way because we're very used to
thinking about it as a a faith or a
belief uh or a religion or something but
actually as a way of life is not even
for me and I spend a lot of time
thinking about this stuff. It isn't
naturally how I default to thinking
about what it is. And what we wanted to
do, I think, is to draw out the book of
Mark's wonderful preaching through a
gospel is always helpful just to root
ourselves again in the essentials of
Christianity through Jesus's eyes. But I
think wanted particularly to draw out
where there are connections between the
way of life that the church is called to
by Jesus and the ways in which we as a
local church want to live out those ways
of life. And so in a way a connection
between our values as a church and what
the Gospel of Mark says through the lens
of the way as a as a way of considering
what it is that makes us distinctive as
Christians in the world and that we as a
church would want to hold to and
practice. So that's the goal of the series.
series.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it is
really good and especially in this
moment with everything that's going on
just having this chance to kind of
remind ourselves of those key values and
I think one of the things we wanted to
do in the group's discussions obviously
we'll be looking at a lot of those
values on a Sunday
but we wanted to and going through the
the the gospel um but I think what would
be nice is to have an opportunity to
explore some of the what does it mean to
follow Jesus through like almost like
different characteristics of life
essentially in terms of
so for for today I think it'd be good to
look at what does it mean to follow
Jesus through obedience. So obviously on
Sunday you talked a bit about kind of
repentance uh faith baptism the spirit
what it means to kind of value those
things as a church
and yeah I just wanted to hear any of
your initial thoughts around what it
what does it look like to be obedient to
Christ. Yes.
Uh and and following him in in obedience.
obedience.
Yeah. I mean, so the the chapter we
read, obviously, I didn't draw this out
particularly, but the sense of Jesus
saying, "Come follow me." That even that
very fact, like, I am going on a journey
and you're going to come in behind me.
You're going to see where I go and do
what I do,
is quite a helpful way for thinking both
about the beginning of the Christian
life and about the practices that form
the Christian way for the rest of our
lives. So he begins by saying you know
John of course before we even meet Jesus
John is saying I baptize with water he's
going to come and baptize in the spirit
and then he goes around pre Jesus goes
around preaching repent believe the
gospel so you've got all four elements
right there
but what is crucial I think is that
those four things are not just
initiation moments they are also they're
intended to configure the way we the way
of life that we go from that point
onwards so the Christian life is a
constant we would talk about the life of
faith or the a battle of faith that we
walk by faith not by sight but it's not
something you just do once you don't go
I believe and then the rest of your life
you're done it's like you're constantly
doing similarly with repentance this is
which is we're perhaps less aligned with
we don't generally talk about I remember
the first time I went to another country
and heard instead of when they got
converted instead of saying when I
believed or when I became a Christian
the language they used was when I repented
repented
and it really struck me I thought that's
just as biblical but that sounds odd to
my ears because we don't do that And in
many ways that's then again sets the
tone for the whole Christian life as
being one of repentance which is Martin
Luther famously said that's what the
Christian life is. You just repent all
the time.
And similarly the life in the spirit you
could also say it's not just once we
receive the spirit bang. Okay now I'm
done. We go on being filled and go on
pursuing spiritual life. Baptism is
different obviously because it's
something you only do once but even then
it sets you up for a lifestyle of
burying, putting off the old, putting on
the new, washing away. And so I think if
if we don't get the the initial
foundations right, it's more difficult
for us then to continue to practice
those things in the rest of our lives.
And so although on the face of it, this
is a discussion about how we obey Jesus
when we first come to him, it's also a
discussion about how we obey Jesus in
day-to-day life as well.
Yeah. Yeah. Even in my own walk with
with God, just trying to work out like
what does obedience look like for me in
those following moments from those big
moments that you have. Like I remember
we had a a a youth group kind of um it
was like a weekend I think it was a
weekend away or something like that some
time away as a youth group when I was a
while ago now I guess but um they had
this moment where they were talking
about baptism for example and uh they
were sharing like what it means to
follow Jesus. I remember it being a
really powerful moment because so many
young people responded to baptism in in
that kind of time away. Yeah.
Yeah.
And for myself, I had kind of obviously
been aware of it growing up in church
that it was an important thing to take,
but I think there was always this side
of like a almost like a selfish side
that was kind of like how how are you
going to share your testimony or how are
you going to like when you are you going
to be okay when you get up on stage?
Like that was a big fear for me is like
oh my gosh, I have to speak publicly, right?
right?
Or even like am I am I good enough right
now? Am I actually
I got still got areas of my life that
I'm struggling with?
And so for me even like there was a
question of oh I'm not doing it. I'm not
being obedient because there's really
some underlying selfish things that are
going on that I'm like, "Oh, maybe some
pride, things like that where you're
like, oh, I don't want to embarrass
myself or and I just remember that
moment being it was it's funny in a way
because at the time I hadn't realized
that when we went into the kind of one
of the other rooms to talk about it, in
my mind, I did I didn't hear what the
person said. So I I didn't realize it
was like to respond to get baptized. I
thought it was just like if you want to
find out a bit more about baptism.
Oh yeah.
So what happened was I basically signed
myself up to be baptized without
realizing it. But I've been putting it
off for such a long time of like knowing
that God was saying like you know you
need to take this step
and it was almost like God kind of just
led me to that. And then having done
that, I was kind of like, actually, no,
this is something I want to do and I'm
glad I've committed to this and then
shared my testimony and all those kind
of things. And God obviously just led me
through that. Some funny moments with
that, but
it was just yeah, a real challenge, I
guess, to the kind of selfish side that
was worrying about what people might
think or particularly in the area of baptism.
baptism.
It's like a public declaration of your
faith. I think that even personally was
was quite a big challenge in terms of
one thing I'd like to ask you a little
bit about is that you've got like four
different topics you or aspects. You've
got repentance,
uh, faith, baptism, spirit.
Um, and as we were talking earlier, I
think one of the challenges in the
church can be balancing the priority of
those four things.
Yeah. Um and and what would you say is
like our tendency as a church maybe and
what some uh suggestions you would give
in terms of balancing out those
different things?
Yeah, that's a I can't speak for
everybody obviously.
But I do think it's quite an I read a
book years ago called the normal
Christian birth by David Porson where he
made this point and he said
there are churches where there's a huge
amount of emphasis on confession and
repentance but for instance very little
on receiving the Holy Spirit or and you
get another church where there's a very
strong emphasis on baptism to the point
that you might be baptized they they
would call it baptism. I'm not sure I
would but they would be baptized before
you even believe or before you repent.
Obviously many churches practice that.
um and other churches we got a very
strong emphasis on receiving the spirit
or the power of faith but not
necessarily on baptism or repentance.
Now I think our churches most of us have
come from a background where either or
both of the faith and the power of the
spirit are emphasized more than
repentance and baptism in water. I would
guess most of us I mean that's not true
for everyone. Some of us will come from
more lurggical highurch backgrounds
where it would be different. But I would
guess that'd be a majority view.
And that's and by the way, no one no
church has got the perfect doubt. I
mean, I think we're all in need of, you
know, adjustment and correction and and
other elements that we haven't seen.
But I do think it it matters to the way
that the things that we're less likely
to notice about the Christian way. So I
think if I was to say to someone who's
come into Christianity through a very
strong emphasis on faith and the spirit
and was to say I just don't really feel
like I believe God or I just don't
experience the gift of the spirit very
people would think that's a huge problem
massive red flag whereas if I said
actually I've never been baptized in
water some of those same people might
say you that can wait you know and as
you as in some ways that is implied by
the the story you just told about your
own life
and the reverse is also true there are
plenty of churches you said what you
haven't been baptized because you're not
a Christian,
but if you haven't experienced the power
of the Holy Spirit, well, that's okay.
You know, people experience in different
ways, that kind of thing. And everyone
doubts or whatever.
Now, I think that what that does is it
should highlight to us probably, oh, the
way I came to Christ, I I had a strong
emphasis on maybe one or two of these
bits, but the other two, yeah, I took
years before I maybe it's this series is
actually drawing my attention as if for
the first time to the fact that the
other elements are also vital. And I
guess the reason I wanted to raise it
even in this conversation is because
that's unlikely to only be true of how
you started. It probably has an ongoing
effect in the way you live now. Yeah.
Yeah.
And that I think that can be the
challenge that if we come to Christ with
a slightly, as most of us do in
fairness, a slightly lopsided emphasis
in that area, we'll probably still have
it somewhere. We'll probably still think
well either you have ongoing repentance
maybe not or ongoing whatever. And I
think or ongoing experience of the
spirit. Do we need that? And I think
it's just helpful at that point to be a
little bit sort of reflect internally
how did I come to Christ? What might
have been underemphasized when I did?
And is that still shaping my disciplehip
and the way I lead the Christian life
now? So that would be I guess the
challenging edge of the question I think
I'd want to put to people. Yeah, I think
that's helpful actually because the
tendency might be to look at like oh we
as a church and even as I phrase the
question I kind of phrased it like that
but I think it's helpful to draw out the
importance of the kind of
self-reflection in the balance of those
kind of different aspects of what it
means to be obedient because yeah I
guess particularly for us as a diverse
church you've got so many different
people from different backgrounds
different experiences where different
churches would have emphasized those
different things I guess you need a
selfch check even for myself I guess I
needed that self check. Yeah.
Yeah.
When I was um when I was a teenager. But
yeah. No, that's I think that's really
good. I was just wondering is there
anything from your own personal
experience or like a personal memory
where you like
and where following Jesus and being
obedient to something you felt God was saying
saying
that was like a challenge or like a
standout memory that you
Yeah. I mean obviously I think in some
ways this has been the ongoing battle of
the Christian life and certainly my
first few years but for me
uh Christian home you know bapti double
baptiz you know baptized a baby which I
now would not see as a baptism um then
got then got really you know came to
Christ in I don't think I'd ever
remember being not being a Christian and
not believing any of it. So actually
faith pretty early on, powerful
encounters with the Holy Spirit around
the ages of 12 or 13, then baptized in
water. For me, the obedience thing came
down to repentance really.
So although I think I was often sorry
for my sin in the way that a child would
say it.
Yes. I I think that the bit that came if
I had to put it like this there's four
people who came latest to the party it
was it was repentance and actually many
years later really I don't think that
the sense of my ongo I don't mean like
apocalyptic senses of sorrow that I'd
done one thing bad I definitely
experienced that there's plenty of guilt
in that sense
but what there wasn't I think was an
ongoing life of repentance where the
actual changes I needed to make and
things I needed to flush out or be
accountable about or just admit were
wrong and seek to change that didn't
really come about until I was in my
early 20s or my last year at university
really. So I was and to use the term
that we'd often use then backsliden
really for about seven or eight years
and I lived a bit of a double life
because I was in my home with my parents
I would live like a Christian boy but I
also I was at boarding school so most of
my year and then at university so for a
lot of my life I wasn't living in the
family home even from the age of 12
onwards. So I just I was regularly
living a life where that you're saying
that's repentance is what would bridge
that gap
and so spirit baptism and faith all
being reinforced through the experience
of church or Bible camp or whatever
but actual life of repentance in an
ongoing way didn't I was between the age
of 13 and 22
just lived a life that was in no way
representative of what I said I believed
and so that's the one for me where I
feel and I can see it in others as well
sometimes I know this is true for Right.
Well, you you go, I believe. I've I've
been baptized. I've received the spirit.
And and it's one of the weird things.
You think God doesn't give us the gift
of the spirit as a reward. Sometimes
people can be very spiritually gifted.
And in certain areas, I was even as a te
I started preaching when I was 17. But I
think you wouldn't have let me do I
wouldn't let me do that now knowing what
I know now because there was such an
inconsistency between what I was saying
and what I was doing. So
that was the one for me. But that's
obviously not everybody's journey, but
it was mine. And I I think it's one of
the reasons why I now feel quite
passionate about joining those things together
together
because in my life they were fragmented
and it didn't make me happy at all. It
was a disaster really.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I can definitely relate
to that in terms of my own faith
journey. Even more recently like God's
been saying to me like it's a real gift
to be able to have faith, but in order
to have faith you do need to have the
doubt. And it's been a thing that I've
heard uh many times, but like I almost
like the the doubt almost becomes a gift
because it's an opportunity for you to
have faith in something.
And so that's that's been a even as you
were talking about the kind of journey
of which ones kind of came late to the
party. I would say for me similarly
repentance and faith and hopefully
people that will have like discussions
in the group will be able to um explore
some of that and so yeah great to have
you with us and we hope that your group
goes well and you're able to just share
some of your own stories uh explore some
of these questions that uh your group
leaders will be able to go through and
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