0:08 [Music]
0:10 Welcome. This is our group discussions
0:14 video as part of the the way series uh
0:15 where we'll be looking at what it means
0:18 to follow Jesus through Mark. And my
0:20 name is TK and here with me we have the
0:23 great Andrew Wilson.
0:26 Thank you for that.
0:28 So, um, it would be good to just talk a
0:30 little bit about the series, I think, up
0:34 front and to just kind of set the scene
0:37 a little bit. Uh, what what in your mind
0:38 as part of because obviously we've been
0:41 planning this teaching series and we
0:43 want to really encourage the church to
0:45 be in groups and we're doing some of the
0:47 daily devotional stuff as well.
0:49 So, there's lots of like focus on
0:51 gathering the church in this moment to
0:53 kind of look through the Gospel of Mark.
0:55 Uh could you just share a bit about kind
0:58 of what what we're what we're doing?
1:01 Yeah. What we're doing? So the early
1:02 Christians, we now call it Christianity,
1:04 right? That's our normal word for it.
1:05 And we call ourselves Christians. If
1:07 someone says that's who you you know
1:08 what's your religion or whatever, you'd
1:10 say, "I'm a Christian." In the book of
1:11 Acts, you find the early church called
1:13 it the way. They didn't really use the
1:15 Christians was a word other people used
1:17 of them. Uh and and eventually they
1:19 owned it and said, "That's great. What a
1:20 privilege to be a Christian." But for
1:21 initially they called themselves
1:23 followers of the way. and they talked
1:25 about Christianity as a way. And I think
1:28 there something quite powerful and quite
1:30 challenging and even subversive. It sort
1:32 of it cuts away at something when you
1:35 hear the language used of Christianity
1:36 as the way because we're very used to
1:38 thinking about it as a a faith or a
1:41 belief uh or a religion or something but
1:44 actually as a way of life is not even
1:45 for me and I spend a lot of time
1:47 thinking about this stuff. It isn't
1:48 naturally how I default to thinking
1:50 about what it is. And what we wanted to
1:52 do, I think, is to draw out the book of
1:53 Mark's wonderful preaching through a
1:55 gospel is always helpful just to root
1:57 ourselves again in the essentials of
1:59 Christianity through Jesus's eyes. But I
2:01 think wanted particularly to draw out
2:03 where there are connections between the
2:05 way of life that the church is called to
2:08 by Jesus and the ways in which we as a
2:09 local church want to live out those ways
2:12 of life. And so in a way a connection
2:15 between our values as a church and what
2:17 the Gospel of Mark says through the lens
2:20 of the way as a as a way of considering
2:21 what it is that makes us distinctive as
2:24 Christians in the world and that we as a
2:25 church would want to hold to and
2:26 practice. So that's the goal of the series.
2:26 series.
2:28 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it is
2:29 really good and especially in this
2:31 moment with everything that's going on
2:33 just having this chance to kind of
2:36 remind ourselves of those key values and
2:37 I think one of the things we wanted to
2:39 do in the group's discussions obviously
2:40 we'll be looking at a lot of those
2:43 values on a Sunday
2:45 but we wanted to and going through the
2:48 the the gospel um but I think what would
2:50 be nice is to have an opportunity to
2:53 explore some of the what does it mean to
2:55 follow Jesus through like almost like
2:58 different characteristics of life
2:59 essentially in terms of
3:01 so for for today I think it'd be good to
3:04 look at what does it mean to follow
3:06 Jesus through obedience. So obviously on
3:09 Sunday you talked a bit about kind of
3:13 repentance uh faith baptism the spirit
3:15 what it means to kind of value those
3:17 things as a church
3:20 and yeah I just wanted to hear any of
3:23 your initial thoughts around what it
3:25 what does it look like to be obedient to
3:26 Christ. Yes.
3:28 Uh and and following him in in obedience.
3:30 obedience.
3:31 Yeah. I mean, so the the chapter we
3:32 read, obviously, I didn't draw this out
3:34 particularly, but the sense of Jesus
3:35 saying, "Come follow me." That even that
3:37 very fact, like, I am going on a journey
3:39 and you're going to come in behind me.
3:40 You're going to see where I go and do
3:42 what I do,
3:44 is quite a helpful way for thinking both
3:45 about the beginning of the Christian
3:48 life and about the practices that form
3:51 the Christian way for the rest of our
3:54 lives. So he begins by saying you know
3:55 John of course before we even meet Jesus
3:58 John is saying I baptize with water he's
3:59 going to come and baptize in the spirit
4:01 and then he goes around pre Jesus goes
4:03 around preaching repent believe the
4:05 gospel so you've got all four elements
4:06 right there
4:08 but what is crucial I think is that
4:10 those four things are not just
4:13 initiation moments they are also they're
4:15 intended to configure the way we the way
4:16 of life that we go from that point
4:18 onwards so the Christian life is a
4:20 constant we would talk about the life of
4:22 faith or the a battle of faith that we
4:24 walk by faith not by sight but it's not
4:25 something you just do once you don't go
4:27 I believe and then the rest of your life
4:29 you're done it's like you're constantly
4:31 doing similarly with repentance this is
4:34 which is we're perhaps less aligned with
4:36 we don't generally talk about I remember
4:37 the first time I went to another country
4:38 and heard instead of when they got
4:40 converted instead of saying when I
4:42 believed or when I became a Christian
4:44 the language they used was when I repented
4:45 repented
4:47 and it really struck me I thought that's
4:48 just as biblical but that sounds odd to
4:51 my ears because we don't do that And in
4:53 many ways that's then again sets the
4:54 tone for the whole Christian life as
4:56 being one of repentance which is Martin
4:57 Luther famously said that's what the
4:58 Christian life is. You just repent all
4:59 the time.
5:01 And similarly the life in the spirit you
5:02 could also say it's not just once we
5:04 receive the spirit bang. Okay now I'm
5:06 done. We go on being filled and go on
5:08 pursuing spiritual life. Baptism is
5:09 different obviously because it's
5:11 something you only do once but even then
5:13 it sets you up for a lifestyle of
5:15 burying, putting off the old, putting on
5:18 the new, washing away. And so I think if
5:19 if we don't get the the initial
5:22 foundations right, it's more difficult
5:24 for us then to continue to practice
5:26 those things in the rest of our lives.
5:28 And so although on the face of it, this
5:30 is a discussion about how we obey Jesus
5:32 when we first come to him, it's also a
5:33 discussion about how we obey Jesus in
5:34 day-to-day life as well.
5:36 Yeah. Yeah. Even in my own walk with
5:39 with God, just trying to work out like
5:42 what does obedience look like for me in
5:44 those following moments from those big
5:46 moments that you have. Like I remember
5:50 we had a a a youth group kind of um it
5:52 was like a weekend I think it was a
5:54 weekend away or something like that some
5:57 time away as a youth group when I was a
6:00 while ago now I guess but um they had
6:01 this moment where they were talking
6:04 about baptism for example and uh they
6:06 were sharing like what it means to
6:07 follow Jesus. I remember it being a
6:10 really powerful moment because so many
6:12 young people responded to baptism in in
6:14 that kind of time away. Yeah.
6:15 Yeah.
6:17 And for myself, I had kind of obviously
6:19 been aware of it growing up in church
6:22 that it was an important thing to take,
6:25 but I think there was always this side
6:27 of like a almost like a selfish side
6:30 that was kind of like how how are you
6:32 going to share your testimony or how are
6:33 you going to like when you are you going
6:35 to be okay when you get up on stage?
6:37 Like that was a big fear for me is like
6:39 oh my gosh, I have to speak publicly, right?
6:40 right?
6:43 Or even like am I am I good enough right
6:45 now? Am I actually
6:47 I got still got areas of my life that
6:49 I'm struggling with?
6:51 And so for me even like there was a
6:55 question of oh I'm not doing it. I'm not
6:57 being obedient because there's really
6:59 some underlying selfish things that are
7:02 going on that I'm like, "Oh, maybe some
7:03 pride, things like that where you're
7:05 like, oh, I don't want to embarrass
7:08 myself or and I just remember that
7:11 moment being it was it's funny in a way
7:13 because at the time I hadn't realized
7:16 that when we went into the kind of one
7:18 of the other rooms to talk about it, in
7:20 my mind, I did I didn't hear what the
7:22 person said. So I I didn't realize it
7:24 was like to respond to get baptized. I
7:25 thought it was just like if you want to
7:27 find out a bit more about baptism.
7:28 Oh yeah.
7:30 So what happened was I basically signed
7:33 myself up to be baptized without
7:34 realizing it. But I've been putting it
7:36 off for such a long time of like knowing
7:37 that God was saying like you know you
7:39 need to take this step
7:42 and it was almost like God kind of just
7:43 led me to that. And then having done
7:45 that, I was kind of like, actually, no,
7:46 this is something I want to do and I'm
7:49 glad I've committed to this and then
7:51 shared my testimony and all those kind
7:53 of things. And God obviously just led me
7:55 through that. Some funny moments with
7:56 that, but
8:00 it was just yeah, a real challenge, I
8:03 guess, to the kind of selfish side that
8:04 was worrying about what people might
8:06 think or particularly in the area of baptism.
8:08 baptism.
8:09 It's like a public declaration of your
8:12 faith. I think that even personally was
8:15 was quite a big challenge in terms of
8:17 one thing I'd like to ask you a little
8:18 bit about is that you've got like four
8:21 different topics you or aspects. You've
8:22 got repentance,
8:24 uh, faith, baptism, spirit.
8:28 Um, and as we were talking earlier, I
8:29 think one of the challenges in the
8:33 church can be balancing the priority of
8:34 those four things.
8:38 Yeah. Um and and what would you say is
8:40 like our tendency as a church maybe and
8:44 what some uh suggestions you would give
8:45 in terms of balancing out those
8:47 different things?
8:49 Yeah, that's a I can't speak for
8:50 everybody obviously.
8:51 But I do think it's quite an I read a
8:53 book years ago called the normal
8:55 Christian birth by David Porson where he
8:57 made this point and he said
8:59 there are churches where there's a huge
9:00 amount of emphasis on confession and
9:02 repentance but for instance very little
9:04 on receiving the Holy Spirit or and you
9:06 get another church where there's a very
9:07 strong emphasis on baptism to the point
9:10 that you might be baptized they they
9:11 would call it baptism. I'm not sure I
9:12 would but they would be baptized before
9:14 you even believe or before you repent.
9:16 Obviously many churches practice that.
9:18 um and other churches we got a very
9:19 strong emphasis on receiving the spirit
9:21 or the power of faith but not
9:23 necessarily on baptism or repentance.
9:25 Now I think our churches most of us have
9:27 come from a background where either or
9:29 both of the faith and the power of the
9:31 spirit are emphasized more than
9:33 repentance and baptism in water. I would
9:34 guess most of us I mean that's not true
9:37 for everyone. Some of us will come from
9:39 more lurggical highurch backgrounds
9:40 where it would be different. But I would
9:42 guess that'd be a majority view.
9:44 And that's and by the way, no one no
9:46 church has got the perfect doubt. I
9:48 mean, I think we're all in need of, you
9:49 know, adjustment and correction and and
9:52 other elements that we haven't seen.
9:54 But I do think it it matters to the way
9:55 that the things that we're less likely
9:58 to notice about the Christian way. So I
10:00 think if I was to say to someone who's
10:02 come into Christianity through a very
10:05 strong emphasis on faith and the spirit
10:07 and was to say I just don't really feel
10:08 like I believe God or I just don't
10:11 experience the gift of the spirit very
10:12 people would think that's a huge problem
10:14 massive red flag whereas if I said
10:15 actually I've never been baptized in
10:17 water some of those same people might
10:20 say you that can wait you know and as
10:21 you as in some ways that is implied by
10:22 the the story you just told about your
10:24 own life
10:25 and the reverse is also true there are
10:26 plenty of churches you said what you
10:27 haven't been baptized because you're not
10:28 a Christian,
10:30 but if you haven't experienced the power
10:31 of the Holy Spirit, well, that's okay.
10:32 You know, people experience in different
10:34 ways, that kind of thing. And everyone
10:35 doubts or whatever.
10:37 Now, I think that what that does is it
10:40 should highlight to us probably, oh, the
10:42 way I came to Christ, I I had a strong
10:44 emphasis on maybe one or two of these
10:46 bits, but the other two, yeah, I took
10:48 years before I maybe it's this series is
10:50 actually drawing my attention as if for
10:51 the first time to the fact that the
10:55 other elements are also vital. And I
10:56 guess the reason I wanted to raise it
10:58 even in this conversation is because
11:00 that's unlikely to only be true of how
11:03 you started. It probably has an ongoing
11:05 effect in the way you live now. Yeah.
11:05 Yeah.
11:07 And that I think that can be the
11:08 challenge that if we come to Christ with
11:10 a slightly, as most of us do in
11:13 fairness, a slightly lopsided emphasis
11:15 in that area, we'll probably still have
11:18 it somewhere. We'll probably still think
11:20 well either you have ongoing repentance
11:22 maybe not or ongoing whatever. And I
11:24 think or ongoing experience of the
11:26 spirit. Do we need that? And I think
11:27 it's just helpful at that point to be a
11:30 little bit sort of reflect internally
11:32 how did I come to Christ? What might
11:34 have been underemphasized when I did?
11:37 And is that still shaping my disciplehip
11:39 and the way I lead the Christian life
11:41 now? So that would be I guess the
11:42 challenging edge of the question I think
11:44 I'd want to put to people. Yeah, I think
11:45 that's helpful actually because the
11:47 tendency might be to look at like oh we
11:49 as a church and even as I phrase the
11:51 question I kind of phrased it like that
11:52 but I think it's helpful to draw out the
11:53 importance of the kind of
11:56 self-reflection in the balance of those
11:58 kind of different aspects of what it
12:01 means to be obedient because yeah I
12:04 guess particularly for us as a diverse
12:05 church you've got so many different
12:06 people from different backgrounds
12:08 different experiences where different
12:09 churches would have emphasized those
12:10 different things I guess you need a
12:13 selfch check even for myself I guess I
12:14 needed that self check. Yeah.
12:15 Yeah.
12:18 When I was um when I was a teenager. But
12:20 yeah. No, that's I think that's really
12:21 good. I was just wondering is there
12:24 anything from your own personal
12:26 experience or like a personal memory
12:28 where you like
12:31 and where following Jesus and being
12:32 obedient to something you felt God was saying
12:33 saying
12:36 that was like a challenge or like a
12:37 standout memory that you
12:39 Yeah. I mean obviously I think in some
12:41 ways this has been the ongoing battle of
12:43 the Christian life and certainly my
12:45 first few years but for me
12:48 uh Christian home you know bapti double
12:50 baptiz you know baptized a baby which I
12:52 now would not see as a baptism um then
12:54 got then got really you know came to
12:56 Christ in I don't think I'd ever
12:58 remember being not being a Christian and
13:00 not believing any of it. So actually
13:02 faith pretty early on, powerful
13:03 encounters with the Holy Spirit around
13:06 the ages of 12 or 13, then baptized in
13:08 water. For me, the obedience thing came
13:10 down to repentance really.
13:12 So although I think I was often sorry
13:15 for my sin in the way that a child would
13:16 say it.
13:19 Yes. I I think that the bit that came if
13:20 I had to put it like this there's four
13:22 people who came latest to the party it
13:24 was it was repentance and actually many
13:25 years later really I don't think that
13:28 the sense of my ongo I don't mean like
13:30 apocalyptic senses of sorrow that I'd
13:32 done one thing bad I definitely
13:34 experienced that there's plenty of guilt
13:35 in that sense
13:37 but what there wasn't I think was an
13:38 ongoing life of repentance where the
13:40 actual changes I needed to make and
13:42 things I needed to flush out or be
13:44 accountable about or just admit were
13:47 wrong and seek to change that didn't
13:49 really come about until I was in my
13:51 early 20s or my last year at university
13:53 really. So I was and to use the term
13:55 that we'd often use then backsliden
13:57 really for about seven or eight years
13:59 and I lived a bit of a double life
14:02 because I was in my home with my parents
14:04 I would live like a Christian boy but I
14:06 also I was at boarding school so most of
14:08 my year and then at university so for a
14:10 lot of my life I wasn't living in the
14:12 family home even from the age of 12
14:15 onwards. So I just I was regularly
14:16 living a life where that you're saying
14:18 that's repentance is what would bridge
14:19 that gap
14:22 and so spirit baptism and faith all
14:24 being reinforced through the experience
14:26 of church or Bible camp or whatever
14:28 but actual life of repentance in an
14:30 ongoing way didn't I was between the age
14:33 of 13 and 22
14:35 just lived a life that was in no way
14:37 representative of what I said I believed
14:39 and so that's the one for me where I
14:40 feel and I can see it in others as well
14:42 sometimes I know this is true for Right.
14:45 Well, you you go, I believe. I've I've
14:46 been baptized. I've received the spirit.
14:48 And and it's one of the weird things.
14:51 You think God doesn't give us the gift
14:52 of the spirit as a reward. Sometimes
14:54 people can be very spiritually gifted.
14:56 And in certain areas, I was even as a te
14:58 I started preaching when I was 17. But I
15:00 think you wouldn't have let me do I
15:01 wouldn't let me do that now knowing what
15:03 I know now because there was such an
15:04 inconsistency between what I was saying
15:06 and what I was doing. So
15:07 that was the one for me. But that's
15:09 obviously not everybody's journey, but
15:11 it was mine. And I I think it's one of
15:13 the reasons why I now feel quite
15:14 passionate about joining those things together
15:15 together
15:17 because in my life they were fragmented
15:18 and it didn't make me happy at all. It
15:19 was a disaster really.
15:21 Yeah. Yeah. No, I can definitely relate
15:23 to that in terms of my own faith
15:25 journey. Even more recently like God's
15:28 been saying to me like it's a real gift
15:30 to be able to have faith, but in order
15:32 to have faith you do need to have the
15:34 doubt. And it's been a thing that I've
15:38 heard uh many times, but like I almost
15:40 like the the doubt almost becomes a gift
15:42 because it's an opportunity for you to
15:44 have faith in something.
15:46 And so that's that's been a even as you
15:48 were talking about the kind of journey
15:49 of which ones kind of came late to the
15:53 party. I would say for me similarly
15:55 repentance and faith and hopefully
15:58 people that will have like discussions
16:01 in the group will be able to um explore
16:03 some of that and so yeah great to have
16:06 you with us and we hope that your group
16:08 goes well and you're able to just share
16:11 some of your own stories uh explore some
16:13 of these questions that uh your group
16:15 leaders will be able to go through and
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