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Francis Lucille: A Masterclass In Non-Duality

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Core Theme

The core theme is the exploration of non-duality and the nature of consciousness, positing that reality is a single, unified consciousness, and our individual selves are expressions or viewpoints within this larger reality.

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Consciousness

through creating the universe, it sort

of learns about itself. What does this

mean? Because people often ask this

question [music] already. This question implicitly

implicitly

assumes duality.

What adva means? It means not two. No,

it means there is only one reality. It

means there is no there's no two or more

realities. There is only one reality.

Don't I have a self then?

>> Yes, you have a self just as you have a car.

car.

You drive your car through the world. In

the same way [music] you drive this body

mind through the world, but ultimately

you are the reality of both this body

mind and the [music] world.

It's not like Shiva being conscious,

[music] pure conscious and shaki being

the world, the energy. It's not like

they exist separately from each other.

In the act of creation, of perception,

the world takes birth at every [music]

moment. Natalia, the bad news

is that

you don't have free will. The good news

is that the one who doesn't have free

Hello Francis, it's a pleasure to

welcome you to our channel. You're

spiritual leader in the tradition or

spiritual teacher rather in the

tradition of advant correct.

>> People think I am a teacher.

>> And who do you consider yourself to be? >> Nobody.

>> Nobody.

[laughter] Everybody.

>> Okay. What is it that you are doing? [laughter]

>> The the teacher appears when there is a

question. You know, in other words,

everybody is a teacher. When we are

asked a question and we answer the

question to the best of our ability, to

the best of our knowledge with

authenticity and

the the the human

human

body mind is in fact an instrument. And

it's a channel just as these earphones

or this TV set, this computer, this

camera, they are they are part parts of

>> Interesting. I have some questions

there. But first I wanted to ask you

because I was uh looking at your life

path preparing for this interview and I

thought what an amazing transformation

you you went through because you started

as an atheist a materialist with a

background in mathematics and physics.

You worked in the defense industry and

how and why did you become well let's

call it spiritual teacher for the sake

of the argument? Uh well I I first

became interested in uh

philosophy in consciousness in reality

these kind of fundamental questions

and uh

that happens to me. Uh

I had problems with my life because I

had achieved everything that [snorts]

my parents were consider considered to

be the recipes for happiness and in fact

I was miserable. You know a good job,

good education,

uh two cars in the driveway, a house

etc. And but I was miserable. I got

divorced, was sick. Uh I was bored with

my job and um

and so uh I was seeking a solution to this

this

problem. I was seeking happiness and in

a bookstore in Paris in the Latin Quarter.

Quarter. I

I was attracted by a book by Krishna

Merti and I went to a nearby bistro.

It was in the spring and

and

three hours later I I had read all the

books and I came back to the bookstore.

I bought all the books by this author.

So that triggered a very intense

[snorts] surge. Then I went become

interested in Zen in

India, Hindu philosophy, talism,

uh early Christianity etc. All the all

the religions basically and all the philosophies

philosophies

that's how it started.

>> Why did you sort of stick with advite?

Was it more appealing than than Buddhism

or Christianity or any other tradition?

>> No. All these all these traditions uh

you know if there is one truth one

reality it is the same for all. So

ultimately different expression. If they

are authentic, if they come from this

authentic experience are simply

different ways of expressing the same experience

experience

and these ways change

depending on the local culture in which

are expressed. So they change

uh over space and over time.

And uh

for me spirituality is not different

from philosophy. Right? Philosophy is

ethmologically means the love for

wisdom. And my teacher defined wisdom as

the science of happiness

or I would say the art of live of living

a fulfilling life. So that would be my

definition of wisdom. In other sense,

uh philosophy is not about more

acquiring more knowledge. It is very

different in that sense from physics or

math or where

science works through extension

expansion and it's a kind of

[clears throat] infinite

expansion knowledge.

Uh whereas um true philosophy is not about

about

knowing more.

It's about living, finding happiness,

finding peace, inner peace. Uh I often quote

quote

a definition of philosophy by French

almost 20th century philosophers.

I think it's Jack Maritan who said

uh the goal of philosophy

is to um

liberate oneself from fear [snorts]

You see, so I I go a little further than

that. So all these tradition, all these

boil down to the same essence if you

will. And uh in my case

after I became interested in this at

some point I wanted to meet someone

who would uh

be an example who could show me okay

what does that mean to live in inner

peace you see so I was seeking for a

teacher and I met a gentleman

in the south of France

>> Jean Klene

>> Jean Klein and

he had met his teacher in India and

[clears throat] so that was the

tradition of advita vidanta

but both John Clan and I we

we were not fundamentalists in the sense

of quite the opposite. He would

recognize the the truth in many

different traditions and also the

absence thereof in many traditions

So for you then philosophy and because

advita vidanta is also a philosophy of

course it's a spiritual tradition but

it's also considered philosophical

tradition because what you're saying is

that you are employing um introspection.

So for you spirituality and philosophy

if not the same at least they are very

much intertwined. Is that correct?

Well, true philosophy or

perennial philosophy

and uh spirituality

are the same and that's very different

from religion. uh it becomes religion

the moment there is addition to a belief

but what I mean addition I mean

additioning with exclusion [clears throat]

[clears throat]

addition and exclus add addition to to a

practice to a right type of behavior and

that doesn't recognize other possibilities

possibilities

you see so it is this at that moment but

the most important definition for me for

for that that establishes a distinction is

the moment there is an element of belief

that comes into play

as long as it be as it remains purely

experimental it's philosophy

or spirituality

>> I understand and I guess religions are

also most of them have institutions

which I think advice evidant that

doesn't have a

>> I don't know

>> a centralized church and and a pope and

all that stuff.

>> You [laughter] see

what advita means? It means not two. No,

it means there is only one reality. It

means there is no there's no two or more

realities. There is only one reality.

Okay. So I was looking one day there is

at the Stanford University there is on

they have a website and there is

something about a part of it which is

about philosophy

and I looked into it about monism which

is in fact the Latin equivalent Greek

monos only one only one reality monis

means advita means nonuality but when I

look into the website I could see that

there were distinctions between six or

seven I don't remember kinds of monism

how is that possible

if there is only one reality that's it

everything is this single reality right

you cannot make a distinction between

because if this monism is different from

that monism

it means that at least one of these

denies that there is only one reality

that's The point that I was making by

saying no exclusion in this sense you

know no addition to

it all flows in the moment

>> when you say it's nondual tradition

could you maybe say a few words what

does this mean because people often ask

this question

>> yeah well there are two kinds of

traditions there is I would say

tradition with a small T and tradition

there are many of those I learned math

and physics in the sense that's a

tradition we have a tradition of math it

was given to me by my teacher in the

books I read right I learn so there are

many tradition tradition means that

which gets transmitted right and

the so you can transmit a prayer you can

transmit a mantra you can transmit a way

of behavior you can transmit all these

things, dos and don'ts, you know, the

the the the ten commandments, you can

transmit belief system, Jesus was born

out of a virgin. You can transmit many

things, but all of these traditions with

a small of what they have in common is

that they transmit

forms. >> [snorts]

>> [snorts]

>> They transmit

What I'm talking about here, the

tradition with a capital T is a

transmission of the experience of consciousness.

consciousness.

The transmission of the experience of

our true nature as human being as consciousness.

consciousness.

And that is the same for all when it

when we get it.

You see, so that's why there is only

real tradition and that that's really

the only one that counts and in a sense

I now know that that was the reason I

was seeking

uh to meet my teacher.

>> If you had to describe a couple of

points, what are the key premises of

your teachings?

Well, if I if I say that

uh and I will say it, but that's only a pointer

pointer and

and

the pointer is very simple. There is

only one reality.

If you ask me

what does reality means, I mean that

which exists in itself for itself by itself.

itself.

And u

if you ask me then what the only

uh a

nonduality is if you will is there is

only one reality.

are defined. And then if you ask me,

can you experientially

point at this reality?

I would say whatever it is which is

really hearing my words right now

is this reality.

You see, because there is there is only

one reality.

And whatever it is [snorts] that is

hearing them

>> And you call that reality consciousness.

>> Oh, you can call it whatever you want.

You know, [clears throat] usually we

call it consciousness. Whatever it is,

we just hearing these words, we call it

consciousness usually. But you can call

it whatever you want because we can call

it I because we say I am hearing the

words. It's not somebody else.

It's me. So uh [clears throat] we can

call it I or self or my true nature. My

true identity. Your true nature. Your

true identity.

>> Yeah. [snorts] The words are tricky

because that's where we all get confused

because we all mean something else. You

know consciousness for me is one thing

for you it's something else and then we

try to have a conversation

>> or what is it for you?

>> I actually agree with your definition

but I think under analytic idealism the

terminology is more like mind or mind at

large which is part of the universal

consciousness. I think that's that's how

analytic idealism sort of panned it. But

ultimately, yes, it's it's

consciousness, fundamental, irreducible.

>> It doesn't matter whether we call it

mind. For instance, in the Zen

tradition, they tend to call it mind.

Uh and what they call consciousness,

most people what they call consciousness

is the content of consciousness.

And uh but I think the the the the

big the big obstacle to this liberating

experience I talk about and the

traditions talk about

is the belief that there is

that there is an absolute or universal

And at the same time that there are

many consciousnesses,

individual consciousnesses

or that there are many uh

many perceivers

and that's the fundamental thing. So if

we talk about idealism for instance,

if you look at Bishop Barklay for

instance, his form of idealism if is

like the the latter was he believes that

there are many consciousnesses. After

all, he is a bishop, you know, he does

it cannot go against the teaching of the

church, right? He believed that there is

many there are many consciousness and

that therefore we are separate individual

individual

and that independently from those there

is God's consciousness shining or the

universal consciousness shining out

there. The problem with this is that God

remains or universal consciousness

remains at the infinite distance from our

our

own consciousness.

This conscious of of us [clears throat]

of ours poor mortals.

And the big

the big step

is the realization that there is no such

a limited consciousness.

That actually in this moment

whatever is hearing my words

is precisely this universal consciousness.

consciousness.

>> Okay Francis, but what do I do with

this? I have a birth date. I have a

name. I woke up this morning. I had

coffee and

for breakfast. Sorry, I couldn't

[laughter] resist my French. [gasps]

And it's, you know, I have plans for

tomorrow. I have memories. I have

parents. I have friends. So, what am I

then? Who am I? Don't Don't I have a

self? Then

>> you live your life just as Yes, you have

a self just as you have a car.

You drive your car through the city and

through the world. In the same way, you

drive this body mind through the world.

But ultimately, you are the reality of

both this body mind and the world.

>> Isn't that duality?

>> No, that's the opposite. You are the

reality of both the body, mind, and [clears throat]

[clears throat]

the world.

the the the apparent diversity between

the body mind and the world arose only

because you asked the question and for

me to answer your question I have to

answer your question at your level I

have to answer the question in the world

in which there are quason and some are

good some quasants are not that good so [laughter]

>> okay appreciate

Um, but how do I know it's true? Because

all I know is this my experiences, you

know, touch, smell, sight, uh, you know,

emotions, thoughts. What kind of, you

know, universal whatever big

consciousness are you talking about?

>> Okay. Okay. The question is how do I

know that this consciousness which is

hearing my words right now

is not limited. Correct?

That it is eternal. That it is the

reality of all things.

>> Yeah. How do I know?

>> How do I know? Okay. First answer. How

do I know that it isn't? What's your evidence?

evidence? [snorts]

[snorts]

>> My sensory [clears throat] p perceptions

and and and um the thinking and all the

you know biological processes which are

at least a correlates of those at least

>> correlates of of what

>> of my thoughts, my emotions, my memories.

memories.

There is no problem

>> brain activity.

>> That's a good question. I should ask you that.

that.

>> All of that. All of that appears in your

Right.

>> In terms of being my awareness. That's

what you're in this.

>> Well, all of that appears in you.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can register most of it.

it.

>> Yeah. Most of it I can register. There

are some subconscious processes which I

don't register right in body.

>> Well, that's that's a different story

because if you don't perceive them,

>> they are not experienced. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> They are concepts

but they are not facts.

>> Well, they are measured by by by by

science. Science tells me that my brain

my brain decides uh uh to lower the

temperature or to you know to increase

the temperature or how it keeps the the

blood uh uh acidity on a certain level

in certain organs. I don't control that.

That's that's subconsciously done.

Science tells me

>> the fact I'm not denying that

there are facts that

that

I'm not denying that. And [clears throat]

[clears throat]

I'm not dying

that because if I ask you what were you

thinking this morning while having your

crossome you don't remember all of your

thoughts it doesn't mean you didn't have

thoughts at that time right so I'm not

denying anything but what I am talking

about is this any evidence we may have

that consciousness is limited what I

call consciousness

whatever it that whatever is hearing my

words right now

whatever you call it what do you what

are you calling it

>> I don't know awareness I'm aware of I'm

hearing your your thoughts I'm aware of

of them I think about them I analyze them

them >> okay

>> okay

whatever evidence you have that this

awareness which is hearing my words

right now is limited in any fashion or

form. What whatever evidence you have is

appearing in this awareness. Right. >> Correct.

>> Correct.

>> And that's the only way you have access

to this evidence only way. Right.

Right.

>> Yep. Yep. Now,

how could possibly

something that appears in your awareness

give you some information

It's like it's like you have an astronomer,

astronomer, right?

right?

Looking at galaxies, stars,

how could possibly whatever is seen by

the astronomer

give us any information

on the astronomer? whether it's a man, a

woman, the age, the color of the eyes,

the color of the of the of the skin, the

whatever is. So if you if you if you

take this analogy,

it will lead to a deep understanding

that whatever you perceive in awareness

cannot tell you any experiential

information about the awareness that

perceives it.

And from understanding what I have just

mentioned, if you go deeply into it,

that whatever is perceived in awareness

[snorts] cannot deliver any information

on the awareness that perceives it. It

follows that in particular as a

corollary in particular

whatever is perceived in awareness

by us by others

cannot tell us cannot answer questions

such as is awareness limited

in space in time does it have a beginning

beginning

in time does it have an end if you look

at your awareness Yes. Do you remember

when it began? Can you assign a beginning?

beginning?

>> No. First memories from my early

childhood. I think that's the earliest I could.

could.

>> Yeah. But that that that's about

something that appears in awareness, but

not about the awareness, right?

>> Yeah, that's correct. Yes. Yes.

>> So, and if you cannot answer this

question, do you think that I can answer

this question better or that the pope

can answer better? No. No. The question

is I don't have an answer to this

question. I don't have an answer. Okay,

that's very important [snorts] and

that's very important because believe

many people believe awareness begins

awareness ends.

That's a religion. We were talking about

religion. That's precisely a religion.

What a religion is is a is a belief

without any experiential foundation.

It's a religion. It's useless.

It's detrimental to our happiness to

believe that we begin and that we end

because once and then I'm trying to go

move towards [snorts]

your your objection. Now that we have established

established

I hope for good forever that we have no

evidence whatsoever that awareness is

limited in any fashion or form.

>> We can't exclude it. No. From my

experience, my localized experience, I

cannot exclude that. Yes.

>> Okay. Let's move one step further. If

you're a scientist, right, and

and

let's say you are going to measure the

spin of an electron around a certain

axis and it can have two value either

plus one/2 or negative one/2, right?

right?

And if you have no knowledge whatsoever

about this electron, you have never met

this electron before.

And if you are asked what is the

rational way to assign the probabilities

between the two possible outcome, what

>> Probability 50/50. I don't know

>> exactly. No, no, it's not that you don't know.

know.

>> I don't have prior experience or prior

measurements which give me something

else. I I would say 50/50. [laughter]

>> Exactly. If if I have no clue whether

whether I would meet this person

tomorrow or not, you know, no clue

whatsoever. You see, or whatever. I I I

toss a coin. have no clue whether it's

going to be uh heads or tails, you know,

the logical way to behave is 50/50. [laughter]

[laughter]

Some people when you tell them what I've

just told you, they forget it. They say,

"Okay, yeah, that's interesting. It's

odd. It makes sense what Francis says,

but I'm not going to investigate that

further. I'm not really interested

because I'm more interested in my quasa

in my whatever in my science whatever.

But some people they say wow

that makes sense.

Let's investigate this evidence I have [snorts]

[snorts]

or I believe to have in science, in neurology,

neurology,

psychology, whatever, physics,

chemistry, biology,

whatever evidence I have that

consciousness is separate

and or not. [snorts]

But the problem is that when we do the

when we conduct this investigation,

we discover yes, Francis is absolutely

right. I have no

solid evidence whatsoever.

I have no solid evidence whatsoever. And

then that's when we reach the true 5050

allocation of probabilities if you will.

You see

now how to go further?

How to go further? And

And

there are two paths [snorts]

to go further.

I call them the path of the

mathematician and the path of the physicist.

physicist.

>> They're different.

>> Of course.

>> Okay. Science. Science to me. Okay.

Please, please go ahead. I'm really

curious now.

>> Well, mathematics is about mathematical

ideas. [snorts]

Physics is about the world. Mathematics

has nothing to do with the world.

Physics has everything to do with the world.

world.

Mathematics is a language which is used

to do physics. And

And

it is strangely efficient.

There are the path of the

mathematicians, the path of the phys.

But this this is a metaphor. It's an

analogy. It's not really that we are

going to use mathematics or physics.

what I call the the path of the

physicist is an experiential path to

what we do in physics you know let's say

we don't do we don't know what the spin

of this electron is well we we send it

to a stern and gala uh device and if it

turns left it's plus if it turns right

it's minus and that's it you know So in

other words, by conducting the

experiment, we ask nature a question.

By looking at the outcome, we get the

answer. Right? So here is the

the

description

of the past of the physicist. In this regard,

regard, we

in our life

we come at

forks on the road so to speak

in which for instance the decision we make

make

would be different

depending on whether

present in a relation with a person

whether your consciousness And my

consciousness is the same. Not a similar

one, but exactly the same. In other

words, whether you are me and I am you,

whether I am universal or whether we are

separate consciousnesses.

You see,

you could envision situation in which

the decision will be different.

It happens often in life, right? When

egoism comes comes in in a decision we

make for instance [snorts] or when

stupidity comes in and then we we

conduct experiment because we have the

choice we have the freedom either to go

the multiple consciousnesses path or the

the only one consciousness path or the

only one awareness path

and then we look at the outcome.

there's going to be an outcome and we we

look at the outcome in two ways. What

happens in the world as a result

and what happens within us also

and my contention is this [snorts]

is that in both

in both sides on both sides [snorts]

if we take what I call the impersonal

decision in other words the one which is predicated

predicated >> [snorts]

>> [snorts]

>> Upon the assumption that consciousness

is universal that in your terms that's

awareness is universal

the outcome will be an increase in

harmony happiness peace both externally

and internally

I'm not I don't mean that the world is

going to to change immediately you know

but what I'm going what but What I'm

saying is the world is is going to be a

better place and that we are to going to

be in a better place to express myself

in lay using lay language right. So as

we multiply these experiments,

you see, we tend to accumulate a body of

evidence [snorts] that points towards

that changes the allocation of

probabilities [snorts] from 50/50 to a different

different distribution.

distribution.

Right? So that that's the uh experiential

the

the path of the mathematician

It has to do with the experience of pure

are not aware of the possibility of the

exist of the experience of pure

consciousness meaning consciousness

They believe that awareness is always

exist always with a perception, with a

and the the experience with perception I

call it phenomenal experience.

The experience of pure awareness I call

it numinal experience in contra

distinction with the other. So the

phenomenal experience

has two features, two qualities

that are not present in the experience

of pure consciousness.

The first

feature of phenomenal experience is that

it's time. It elapses in time. There is duration.

The second feature

is that it can never be 100% certain.

That's interesting

for the following reason.

Remember that when you dream, when we dream,

dream,

we believe that the content of the dream

is real.

Right? If a tiger

is assaulting us, we are afraid, right?

Meaning we believe it's a real tiger, right?

right?

>> In the dream. Of course.

>> In the dream. Yes. Exactly. In the

dream. So since

whatever is phenomenally perceived in

cannot tell us that we are dreaming. Right?

Right?

How can be sure that now the phenomenal

is telling us that we are not dreaming?

In other words, we cannot be sure

that the phenomenal content of our

experience is real.

We cannot be sure that this

vase or this object in front of me

exists independently from my mind. I

cannot be sure. Right?

Okay. going back to because we are

trying I was trying to make the

distinction between phenomenal and

numinal or nonfenomomenal experience

it's different

regarding the experience of consciousness

consciousness

if I ask you are you conscious

what say you

>> I would say yes very likely that I

because I I have feelings I have a a

feeling of a body. I am hearing what

you're saying. I'm analyzing it. So, I

have thoughts and I have questions. So,

it gives me a feeling that I am >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> conscious. I'm aware.

>> So, uh and you you know that you are

conscious from direct experience, right?

In other words, not from hearsay, not

because your dad has told you you know

you are at some point you are, you know,

you're conscious. Oh, wow. I wasn't

conscious before. No. No. Right. You you

know it from direct experience.

>> in instant? Yeah.

>> Instantness, you know. So in other

words, we derive this certainty of

consciousness from from an experience

which seems not to have duration in time

but which comes with absolute certainty

unlike the phenomenal experience of of

whatever we see around us. You see two

very distinctive features.

And the reason why this experience of

pure consciousness through which we know

that we are conscious

the reason why it seems to be instantaneous

instantaneous

is because there are no perception

there. You see, in order to have a time,

the sense that time elapses,

we need to have perceptions.

Like the the hand of the clock moves

from here to here, you see. And uh

without perception,

it's instantaneous

already. When you when we don't memorize,

memorize,

it seems that time has not elapsed.

after Anastasia for instance we have

been out for two hours and it seems that

right so

>> but my mind puts it in a timeline so I

have a registration right so we started

the conversation I ask so many questions

and so the moments the instances the

moment continue but then my mind puts it

in a specific timeline am I correct yeah okay

okay

>> yes you go back to the dream if you will

and in the dream

You have the timeline just as in your

dream you have a dream. You have the

dream that

in the past you got married and then you

had this child and then your husband

passed away and the child passed away.

Right? You wake up where was this

marriage? Where was this time? Where was

his first child? This where

it was in the moment of the dream. There

was no past. But by going back, if you

could go back to the dream, then of course.

course.

Yes. So all it boils down to is this

distinction between first person

experience and third person experience.

You see, we conduct science from a third

person experience vantage point. And

it has its usefulness

because in a sense

we have to move in a world where

third person experience works

that this dream. But in terms of

happiness, of love, of beauty, of peace,

of understanding, of harmony, there is a

different dimension

other than that which is to which

practical life

uh uh applies and

in which we do physics.

Uh there is a different world,

a different place. I wouldn't say a

world no different place just as there

is a different place in which we do math

which is not the world we don't do math

in the world

you know what got me um is actually

um out of body experiences during

near-death experiences when people were

brought into operating theater in coma

and left in coma and the brain was in a

state of clinical death so the apparatus

was not working and yet the person comes

back and perfectly describes not just

some beautiful colors, lights and

everything, some random stuff. No, no,

no. The person describes what was in in

operating theater, recognizes the nurses

saying, "Please bring my dentals back.

You took them out because you wanted to

intubate me." So, so incredibly specific

stuff that you can't even call it

hallucination. So that that really got

me because [laughter]

there must be something to it because if

the body is not functioning at all and

our doctors are saying thinking dreaming

even hallucinations are not possible

because there is no brain activity

whatsoever [laughter and gasps] and then

person comes back with the story I don't

know how to explain it

>> yeah and and that's and that's the

reason why it becomes obvious that

first person experience and third person

experience don't coincide they are Not

the same experience obviously. So for

instance when we say someone is conscious

conscious

from a medical vantage point you know

the doctor declared in this in the case

of this patient

he is unconscious or even his brain dead

brain dead right but the first based on

experience which is a real consciousness

is different. So we should have two def

two different word. One which is being

conscious as a first person consciousness

consciousness

and the second one will be to be

declared conscious as a third person

definition of consciousness and they

don't coincide experientially. We know

that they don't coincide. So what I'm

when so that's very important because

when I talk about consciousness I'm

talking always about first person consciousness

consciousness

because it is the only consciousness

which is experienced.

The other consciousness is not experienced.

experienced.

We experience feature of a body or the

absence of electrical signals in the

brain but we don't experience the

consciousness of the other person. You see,

see,

so the only consciousness with the or

awareness which is truly experienced is

the first person one. The other one is a fake

fake

consciousness. It has its value. Of course,

course,

I want to be resuscitated, right? I

[snorts] don't care what they call me,

but the one I'm talking about is the one

we actually experience. It's our true

experience of consciousness. And uh this

one we have to be open to the possibility

possibility that

that

it is not limited

by anything that it is not dependent

upon the body and that it is not

localized in space or time because we

have no evidence, [snorts]

zero evidence

that it is the case. And as a result,

we are allowed to be open to the

possibility to the other possibility

that it is universal and that in fact

it is the reality of everything or that

the reality of everything

>> I have an example from our YouTube

channel audience. Uh it's a metaphor so

bear with me has some description and

would be helpful to get your thoughts on

that. So here it goes. Um, if

consciousness is all there is and we are

just its viewpoints,

it must be like a single actor in a

theater playing multiple characters at

the same time and each of them with

amnesia so that they don't know they are

one and the same actor.

Of course, the theater, the material

universe exists only because this actor

exists. And the irony is that the

characters feel that there is more to

life than just their roles. They have

this inner striving to seek the truth

built in them. So and some discover

there this one actor but they have to

keep on playing their roles in the play.

So what's the point of this game and why

has it started as if it if it has

started in the first place? And I have

uh some some speculations that we can

offer you Francis. You don't have to

take them. Um so one is is the actor

trying to deal with extreme loneliness.

So it's hard even to imagine oneself

alone with nothing and nobody. You

probably would trade any experience in

this world for for being completely

alone and completely. The second option

um is love.

Why don't you why don't you take them

one by one?

>> Okay, let's take them one by one. Good

good point. So, what do you think? Start

with is is the metaphor correct more or

less in terms of describing the nature

of reality?

>> The metaphor is correct. It's it's nice

and but like any analogy it has its limitation

limitation >> simplifications

>> simplifications

>> and it reaches its limitation

with this first explanation

the loneliness. [snorts]

So because the assumption is that

consciousness when it is alone in other

words without objects is miserable is

lonely and that's quite the opposite.

But consciousness in this aloneeness

is pure happiness pure joy pure eternity.

eternity.

And out of this eternity there is a kind

of desire to to enjoy the fullest of its

creative powers. And then it creates

that it creates all this mess. Right? So [snorts]

[snorts]

[laughter] this first explanation comes

definitely from ignorance comes from an

absence of experience of pure consciousness.

consciousness. >> [snorts]

>> [snorts]

>> So I think you are closer to the second

speculation we have which is is love the

inherent nature of this actor and so it

is compelled to create someone else to

love and that's a postulate from cabal

as well

specific

Love is the experience

by two beings of their oneness,

right? By two being. But that's not what

love is, right?

right? Uh

when two apparent apparently separate

beings experience love,

they discover that they are the

universal being which is very different.

They become the all the whole. Right?

That's a true experience of love. And

this experience of love then of course

is not limited to

relationships for instance or to

you can have the same feeling with the

creation with nature. You know, you you

drive down from your hill and you see

the you see the beautiful city and the

distant mountain and the sky and and and

you think, "Oh, God,

your creation is so beautiful, you know,

and and it's love. It's not just love

for a person, you know, but the smile

you exchange with a stranger in the bus,

you know, that's also a moment of where

we lose our distance, right? we lose our

distance. We we won't see this person we

won't see this person again in our life.

Right? It it's it's this this

recognition of our oneness. Uh [clears throat]

[clears throat]

so so the experience of love is not like

two hands [laughter]

that come together and becomes one hand

which is still limited.

is two hands that come in this coming

together dissolve

And the last speculation if is it true

or not

or is it dreaming the reality into

existence its inherent nature not love

or not just love and then the whole

universe this theater with all the

characters is its ultimate dream as some

spiritual traditions uh [clears throat]

postulate that it is

>> yeah but but but it's a dream out of

love because it is love that dreams a

dream it is Vishnu that dreams

the the world but Vishnu is love itself.

So he cannot be present at that separate

reality alternatives. Uh yes in a sense

it is a dream. It is a dream in

reference to its absolute reality.

Right? In other words the world is a

dream. Yes, the world is a dream only to

the extent that it is seen as different

When the world is seen as consciousness itself,

itself,

it's no longer a doing. It's reality.

You see that's that's that's very important.

important.

uh in [clears throat] in the Indian

tradition they say uh it's not like

Shiva being conscious pure conscious and

shaki being the world the energy it's

not like they exist

separately from each other no it's just

that Shiva

becomes Shaki and Shaki becomes Shiva in

the act of creation of perception uh the World

World

takes birth at every moment and the

birth the world gets anhilated at every

moment. You know it's a we think that

things are material you know even even

from the vantage point of science of

physics you know we think of that's this

table here it's solid in fact if I go down

down

to the atomic level and to the subatomic level

level

it's only space

it's only space it's just because there

are electromagnetic forces that create

this seeming

uh solidity but in fact it's only space

and in this space

we think that we have a little pieces of granite

granite

called particles. No, even that is not

true. You know what we have is fields

and exitation of these fields and

interaction between these fields and

it's all a continuous movement like like

the ocean you see. So

our view our I I I I could the caveman

or woman view of the world you know is

very simplistic

and it doesn't jive with a more profound

view that we acquire through scientific knowledge

knowledge

and this more profound view of we

removes

the matter light quality of the world

like matter like like being made of

little pieces of metal or little pieces

of stone. Right? This matter like

remains in our common psyche, right? But

it it gets removed. It it becomes more

like emptiness. [snorts] The the vacuum

actually we have this thing we have we

have the the vacuum state in in in in

quantum physics the the vacuum state and

and excitements.

So exitations.

So it becomes something more intangible,

more transparent, more awareness like.

And so

that opens then the possibility for the

ultimate reality of the world once it

has lost through this scientific

investigation, right? lost its matter

like quality, its solidity, it becomes

something very different. And once

consciousness, awareness

through our investigation

has been differentiated from the objects

of consciousness, the thoughts, the

perceptions. So that consciousness is

not seen as a thought

not as as the content of consciousness

but as this invisible presence.

So then that makes possible for the two

to be the same. You see for the the

fundamental equation you know of

But what is the point of this game?

What's the purpose of it all? Did has it

have beginning? Will it have an end? >> What

>> What

>> human mind wants to know? We want to know.

know.

Do you have an idea or speculation, hypothesis?

hypothesis?

>> Because it's enjoyable. Because the game

the game is really about consciousness. [snorts] It has it has been about

[snorts] It has it has been about consciousness

consciousness all along. All along that was we were

all along. All along that was we were seeking. It's it's a kind of a game of

seeking. It's it's a kind of a game of hide and seek with ourselves. We have

hide and seek with ourselves. We have lost

lost and it's like the boy scouts, you know,

and it's like the boy scouts, you know, we we have this treasure hunt type of

we we have this treasure hunt type of game, right? in Boy Scouts and uh and

game, right? in Boy Scouts and uh and there are signs and we first see the

there are signs and we first see the first signs and our interest gets

first signs and our interest gets high stronger stronger strong right and

high stronger stronger strong right and we we move to the treasure but then life

we we move to the treasure but then life is about celebration and whatever that

is about celebration and whatever that which is visible

which is visible celebrates the invisible

celebrates the invisible everything then there is no preference

everything then there is no preference our relationships

our relationships are a celebr celebration or our

are a celebr celebration or our encounters, our uh being in nature, the

encounters, our uh being in nature, the the the quasa in the morning.

the the quasa in the morning. All of that, the tea, you know, the the

All of that, the tea, you know, the the perfume of of vanilla when I I I I make

perfume of of vanilla when I I I I make my waffles in the morning. Look, all of

my waffles in the morning. Look, all of that is part of the celebration. But

that is part of the celebration. But what it is that we like the most, and

what it is that we like the most, and that's something

that's something that which we love really is

that which we love really is consciousness.

consciousness. We love consciousness in all beings.

We love consciousness in all beings. That's love. What we understand as love

That's love. What we understand as love usually. But consciousness is the unique

usually. But consciousness is the unique object of our love. And

object of our love. And but it is so

but it is so present

present that

that we take it for granted.

It's like someone who all of a sudden gets COVID, cannot

who all of a sudden gets COVID, cannot breathe any longer, gets intubated, you

breathe any longer, gets intubated, you know. And he says, "Oh, if only I could

know. And he says, "Oh, if only I could breathe again. I don't care about money.

breathe again. I don't care about money. I don't care about fame. I If I only

I don't care about fame. I If I only could breathe the way I used to." You

could breathe the way I used to." You see? But as long as he was breathing, he

see? But as long as he was breathing, he was taking it for granted, right? And

was taking it for granted, right? And now it has become become its most

now it has become become its most precious

precious good.

good. But think about consciousness. It's even

But think about consciousness. It's even more precious to us [snorts] than the

more precious to us [snorts] than the breath.

breath. And that's and that's what that's the

And that's and that's what that's the experiential

experiential reason

reason for me to say that that which love the

for me to say that that which love the most is consciousness. We just forget

most is consciousness. We just forget it.

it. What do you think about this? Another

What do you think about this? Another hypothesis or another explanation I've

hypothesis or another explanation I've heard which sort of makes sense to me

heard which sort of makes sense to me but I'm I'm wondering about your

but I'm I'm wondering about your thoughts that consciousness through

thoughts that consciousness through creating the universe through

creating the universe through experiencing

experiencing itself. It sort of learns about itself.

itself. It sort of learns about itself. It's like a night cannot see itself. So

It's like a night cannot see itself. So it has to create something which would

it has to create something which would reflect back in order. But so as it as

reflect back in order. But so as it as it's doing something through us and

it's doing something through us and through everything which exists, it sort

through everything which exists, it sort of learns about what it is.

of learns about what it is. >> Yes. But you see the question you ask

>> Yes. But you see the question you ask uh the question you ask is

on on all all these three possibilities that we envision, right? It's

that we envision, right? It's what's the goal? What's the purpose?

what's the goal? What's the purpose? Right? And already this question

Right? And already this question implicitly

implicitly assumes duality

assumes duality right because a goal is to move from

right because a goal is to move from here to there.

here to there. It takes duality for granted. Whereas

It takes duality for granted. Whereas advant say no no no I'm sorry you are

advant say no no no I'm sorry you are making when you ask this question you

making when you ask this question you are already cooked because you are

are already cooked because you are already buying into evolution from here

already buying into evolution from here to there you see as being important.

to there you see as being important. No [clears throat]

No [clears throat] uh this reality is perfectly happy

uh this reality is perfectly happy within itself and of itself and besides

within itself and of itself and besides there is nothing outside of it. You see

there is nothing outside of it. You see uh it's like a and when I say this

uh it's like a and when I say this reality moves it's important to

reality moves it's important to understand because

understand because when we talk about motion

when we talk about motion there are two possibility let's say I

there are two possibility let's say I say everything we see is like the waves

say everything we see is like the waves in the in the ocean right it's it's it's

in the in the ocean right it's it's it's like everything we see is a movement of

like everything we see is a movement of consciousness

but then there is another way to understand the

there is another way to understand the movement of consciousness. It's like

movement of consciousness. It's like taking the Atlantic Ocean and

taking the Atlantic Ocean and transporting it [snorts] where the

transporting it [snorts] where the Pacific Ocean is. You see, in other

Pacific Ocean is. You see, in other words, it's no longer a movement of the

words, it's no longer a movement of the ocean within itself.

ocean within itself. It's a movement of the ocean itself.

It's a movement of the ocean itself. So consciousness,

So consciousness, when I say conscious, there is a

when I say conscious, there is a consciousness moves, it moves within

consciousness moves, it moves within itself.

itself. But not out of itself to a different

But not out of itself to a different place because there is no other place

place because there is no other place for reality to go. Right.

for reality to go. Right. >> Yeah. It's like there is only Pacific

>> Yeah. It's like there is only Pacific Ocean. Nothing else [laughter] exists.

Ocean. Nothing else [laughter] exists. Right.

Right. Taking your example to an extreme.

Taking your example to an extreme. [laughter]

Have you had a direct experience of this actor, this pure consciousness? What

actor, this pure consciousness? What it's like?

Uh many people have that. It's just they

many people have that. It's just they don't recognize it. Uh some people

don't recognize it. Uh some people have

have a very decisive experience

a very decisive experience and uh

and uh with great great clarity

with great great clarity that lives uh

that lives uh in the mind the body mind

in the mind the body mind an unreason unerasable

imprint >> [snorts]

>> [snorts] >> Other people

>> Other people have this experience

have this experience and then the mind apparently has not

and then the mind apparently has not been transformed.

been transformed. But eventually

But eventually this experience comes back back back and

this experience comes back back back and glimpse after glimpses.

glimpse after glimpses. uh that which matters in a sense, but

uh that which matters in a sense, but ultimately nothing matters. But um

ultimately nothing matters. But um because even those who had this

because even those who had this life

life changing experience

changing experience uh

uh they can come back to life as usual and

they can come back to life as usual and to misery

to misery for a while.

for a while. they need to get some process whereby

they need to get some process whereby they get kind stable in this inner

they get kind stable in this inner peace.

peace. Uh and the ones who had a seemingly

Uh and the ones who had a seemingly fleeting glimpse can also glimpse after

fleeting glimpse can also glimpse after glimpse ultimately reach the same

glimpse ultimately reach the same ordinary apparently ordinary uh wisdom.

ordinary apparently ordinary uh wisdom. You know, ordinary

You know, ordinary being without

being without uh without fear, without being

uh without fear, without being optimistic,

optimistic, be being um happy with their with their

be being um happy with their with their life. No, no regrets.

life. No, no regrets. Uh

Uh happy with happy campers, you see. And

happy with happy campers, you see. And uh

so >> but what it's like if you if you had to

>> but what it's like if you if you had to describe sort of the best experience

describe sort of the best experience that people could have a view

that people could have a view how does it feel? Does it feel good?

how does it feel? Does it feel good? Does it feel bad? Does it feel strange?

Does it feel bad? Does it feel strange? You you disappear as a person. How does

You you disappear as a person. How does what is like

what is like it's

it's >> it's it's very hard to describe. Okay.

>> it's it's very hard to describe. Okay. Let's for me it was the [snorts]

Let's for me it was the [snorts] experience of absolute happiness,

experience of absolute happiness, love, splendor,

love, splendor, immortality

uh and before that you see for instance

and before that you see for instance when I was thinking of happiness

when I was thinking of happiness I was thinking always in terms of you

I was thinking always in terms of you know like when when you asked what's

know like when when you asked what's your level of pain from one to from zero

your level of pain from one to from zero to 10. Right? So I was

to 10. Right? So I was when I was thinking of happiness, I was

when I was thinking of happiness, I was thinking, okay, this one is a six, this

thinking, okay, this one is a six, this one is a three, this one is a -4,

one is a three, this one is a -4, right?

right? But the maximum was 10,

But the maximum was 10, right? In other words, 10. The maximum

right? In other words, 10. The maximum happiness was in reference to nine. It

happiness was in reference to nine. It was one notch above nine, right? And two

was one notch above nine, right? And two notch above above eight.

But when I with this experience, it was different. It was infinite. And that's

different. It was infinite. And that's that was a big surprise. It was that was

that was a big surprise. It was that was I call I call it absolute.

I call I call it absolute. >> No conditions. There is nothing above.

>> No conditions. There is nothing above. That's the point. I mean there is

That's the point. I mean there is nothing that could ever be above that. I

nothing that could ever be above that. I mean you can have some drugs and have an

mean you can have some drugs and have an experience an apparent happiness out of

experience an apparent happiness out of the ordinary, right? But

the ordinary, right? But you can always be open that a different

you can always be open that a different drug or something else will create

drug or something else will create something above that. But then the s the

something above that. But then the s the surprising thing for me was there's

surprising thing for me was there's nothing above that one. the absolute

nothing above that one. the absolute quality of love, of happiness, of

quality of love, of happiness, of beauty, of

beauty, of >> Yeah. some people describe it that um

>> Yeah. some people describe it that um it's feels like your your heart has been

it's feels like your your heart has been ripped open and there is just so much

ripped open and there is just so much love, so much emotion that you can't

love, so much emotion that you can't bear it. It's just they start crying

bear it. It's just they start crying because you know the body you know

because you know the body you know reacts to it this this way. So these are

reacts to it this this way. So these are some accounts I heard but I was

some accounts I heard but I was wondering yours seem to be more more you

wondering yours seem to be more more you know intellectual maybe maybe I'm wrong

know intellectual maybe maybe I'm wrong [laughter]

[laughter] no also feeling you say it was a feeling

no also feeling you say it was a feeling sort of that took over right everything

sort of that took over right everything absolute feeling absolute happiness

absolute feeling absolute happiness fascinating

fascinating >> it was by the way no it was not

>> it was by the way no it was not intellectual at all

intellectual at all >> no

>> no >> no no in this case because what we mean

>> no no in this case because what we mean intellectual in Fact what we mean is

the path that leads to this experience. It likes

that leads to this experience. It likes how do you go to the party? You can take

how do you go to the party? You can take a cap. You take you can take the bus,

a cap. You take you can take the bus, [snorts]

[snorts] you can take a bicycle, right?

you can take a bicycle, right? And

And in this case you can go through

in this case you can go through feelings, you can go through the

feelings, you can go through the external senses through beauty, through

external senses through beauty, through love, through beauty and you can go

love, through beauty and you can go through also through intelligence.

through also through intelligence. This path are open. And [clears throat]

This path are open. And [clears throat] in the case of this experience, it was

it was feelings and and and beauty and perceptions. But then

beauty and perceptions. But then there is the intelligence because this

there is the intelligence because this place is a place of absolute

place is a place of absolute intelligence.

intelligence. It's not separate.

So it's like you become that basically you're taking over it. You're you're

you're taking over it. You're you're becoming that love or whatever that is

becoming that love or whatever that is intelligence.

intelligence. >> What you are not disappears.

>> What you are not disappears. What you are remains.

>> How did you get to that? Through meditation or it came upon you out of

meditation or it came upon you out of the blue?

the blue? >> It come through the desire. Why we

>> It come through the desire. Why we desire that is a mystery. Why we enter

desire that is a mystery. Why we enter the path

the path is a mystery. It's grace in religious

is a mystery. It's grace in religious terms or it's a philosophical

terms or it's a philosophical overwhelming interest.

overwhelming interest. Uh

Uh once we are we have begun there is there

once we are we have begun there is there is no no going back.

is no no going back. Was it difficult for you to come back to

Was it difficult for you to come back to play your character in the play after

play your character in the play after you realize that you are the actor?

you realize that you are the actor? >> Have you not lost the lust for life? You

>> Have you not lost the lust for life? You know, the curiosity for life. Okay, I

know, the curiosity for life. Okay, I understand it. I've seen it all. So, but

understand it. I've seen it all. So, but I have to go back, wake up every

I have to go back, wake up every morning, get the kids to school,

morning, get the kids to school, whatever we're doing.

whatever we're doing. >> Oh, no, no, no. The

>> Oh, no, no, no. The there are things that you used to do,

there are things that you used to do, they don't they don't attract you any

they don't they don't attract you any longer.

Like uh spending time in noisy nightclub,

spending time in noisy nightclub, nightclubs,

you know that that doesn't attract you. There are things in my case that I used

There are things in my case that I used to do to enjoy that I stopped doing

to do to enjoy that I stopped doing because I was following closely my

because I was following closely my teacher and I was for I was skiing

teacher and I was for I was skiing playing tennis doing things like that. I

playing tennis doing things like that. I stopped for a while

stopped for a while but later on I started I restarted that

but later on I started I restarted that you know. So there are things you for a

you know. So there are things you for a while because you need to

while because you need to to devote more time and attention to

to devote more time and attention to this investigation then you you have

this investigation then you you have less time available but at the end it's

less time available but at the end it's your entire life. So you you don't uh

your entire life. So you you don't uh you don't read books. I don't read books

you don't read books. I don't read books about spirituality.

about spirituality. I haven't read that for

I haven't read that for [clears throat] forever. you know, you

[clears throat] forever. you know, you don't do there are things you don't do

don't do there are things you don't do any longer. There are things you you do

any longer. There are things you you do like cooking and running errands, you

like cooking and running errands, you know, and and travelings. So,

or gardening. >> Well, it's good news, which means that

>> Well, it's good news, which means that if we all become enlightened, then we

if we all become enlightened, then we still can enjoy our lives and just

still can enjoy our lives and just things drop out which do not serve us

things drop out which do not serve us for whatever reason anymore. Don't don't

for whatever reason anymore. Don't don't ask yourself whether you are enlightened

ask yourself whether you are enlightened or not because

or not because there is only light and we all are the

there is only light and we all are the same light. There is nobody who gets

same light. There is nobody who gets enlightened. Nobody nobody gets

enlightened. Nobody nobody gets enlightened

enlightened and nothing happens by chance. We had

and nothing happens by chance. We had this conversation.

this conversation. We we life is strange. Nothing happens

We we life is strange. Nothing happens by chance in life. And uh the path of

by chance in life. And uh the path of the big

the big big and satur as they say in Japan

big and satur as they say in Japan is one way it manifests. It's not for

is one way it manifests. It's not for everybody. For most people I would say

everybody. For most people I would say it's more

it's more glimpse after glimpse after glimpse. And

it doesn't m I don't know which which path is the fastest. For instance,

path is the fastest. For instance, everybody has his own path. You have

everybody has his own path. You have yours, I have mine.

yours, I have mine. But there is nobody having a path. These

But there is nobody having a path. These are ways we as this universal

are ways we as this universal consciousness

consciousness uh [clears throat]

uh [clears throat] plays a game of infinity.

plays a game of infinity. We as characters in the play, do we have

We as characters in the play, do we have free will or it's all free will of one

free will or it's all free will of one actor?

actor? >> We have zero freedom.

>> We have zero freedom. >> Zero. Mhm.

>> Zero. Mhm. >> So So we are not really

>> So So we are not really uh as as John Doe the actor as John Doe

uh as as John Doe the actor as John Doe the actor playing King Le

the actor playing King Le then we have the freedom. John Doe can

then we have the freedom. John Doe can change a little bit the way he plays

change a little bit the way he plays etc. John John Do the actor is free but

etc. John John Do the actor is free but King Lear never existed. So King Leer

King Lear never existed. So King Leer has no freedom. Right.

has no freedom. Right. >> I thought I had free will. [laughter]

>> I thought I had free will. [laughter] I'll take Croissol in the morning or

I'll take Croissol in the morning or scrambled eggs.

scrambled eggs. >> Look Natalia the bad news is that

>> Look Natalia the bad news is that you don't have free will.

you don't have free will. The good news is that the one who

The good news is that the one who doesn't have free free will is not you

as a as a separate as a separate uh uh

as a separate uh uh body mind entity.

body mind entity. We have no free will. Everything we do

We have no free will. Everything we do from moment to moment is conditioned by

from moment to moment is conditioned by the past

the past or if you will by the current state of

or if you will by the current state of the universe. They say we are we are

the universe. They say we are we are like a

a whirlpool in the river. We don't have a an

in the river. We don't have a an individual separate existence. Our

individual separate existence. Our individual separate existence and as a

individual separate existence and as a result our freedom is an illusion.

result our freedom is an illusion. It is the way the river move but and

It is the way the river move but and that's where the the metaphor

that's where the the metaphor comes to an end.

comes to an end. We are the river but this river is the

We are the river but this river is the river of freedom. The name of this river

river of freedom. The name of this river is the freedom river. So this river is

is the freedom river. So this river is free. This river is not

free. This river is not a constraint between two banks. No, this

a constraint between two banks. No, this river is freedom itself. So bad news

river is freedom itself. So bad news as a separate and as a separate body

as a separate and as a separate body mind we believe to be we are conditioned

mind we believe to be we are conditioned we have no freedom. Good news we are not

we have no freedom. Good news we are not this body mind. It appears in us and we

this body mind. It appears in us and we are already

are already this universal consciousness which is

this universal consciousness which is hearing my words right now

hearing my words right now >> and which is inherently free [laughter]

>> and which is inherently free [laughter] as free as it can be.

as free as it can be. >> Inherently free. There is no it has

>> Inherently free. There is no it has always been free. It is not affected. It

always been free. It is not affected. It is free in two ways. [snorts] It is free

is free in two ways. [snorts] It is free from because whatever it perceives

from because whatever it perceives doesn't affect it. You see just as the

doesn't affect it. You see just as the the images reflected in the mirror

the images reflected in the mirror doesn't stain or damage the mirror. So

doesn't stain or damage the mirror. So consciousness is free from all the

consciousness is free from all the perceptions but [snorts] in addition it

perceptions but [snorts] in addition it is free to create everything that we

is free to create everything that we perceive is our own creation as

perceive is our own creation as consciousness. Once we are open to this

consciousness. Once we are open to this possibility

possibility and [clears throat]

and [clears throat] we check it out it becomes a reality of

we check it out it becomes a reality of our experience. But it it requires the

our experience. But it it requires the courage

courage to check it out.

to check it out. >> Is God for you the same as this

>> Is God for you the same as this universal consciousness or is it

universal consciousness or is it something else?

something else? >> Yes. Yes. Yes.

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> The same.

>> The same. >> God God for me has

>> God God for me has nothing personal. See uh it's not a

nothing personal. See uh it's not a human person.

human person. The what we in fact [clears throat] what

The what we in fact [clears throat] what we define in a human human being as as

we define in a human human being as as its human quality a lot of compassion,

its human quality a lot of compassion, love, intelligence, you know, the

love, intelligence, you know, the intelligence of the heart, all of that

intelligence of the heart, all of that sense of beauty, sensitivity.

sense of beauty, sensitivity. In fact,

In fact, these qualities are divine qualities in

these qualities are divine qualities in us. You know, they don't belong to the

us. You know, they don't belong to the human body. We attribute them to the

human body. We attribute them to the body. But no, they transcend the body.

body. But no, they transcend the body. They belong to consciousness.

They belong to consciousness. They are if you will uh lumininal

They are if you will uh lumininal qualities.

qualities. Phenomenal qualities are like weight,

Phenomenal qualities are like weight, extension in time, and space, color,

extension in time, and space, color, vibration, you know, everything that can

vibration, you know, everything that can that is really phenomenal.

that is really phenomenal. But law of sensitivity, aesthetic sense,

But law of sensitivity, aesthetic sense, uh compassion,

uh compassion, the ability to understand

the ability to understand how another person feels. For instance,

how another person feels. For instance, that that comes from a different place.

that that comes from a different place. You know it's because if you think when

You know it's because if you think when we interact as human being

we interact as human being [clears throat]

[clears throat] our words

our words our words trans transfer information

our words trans transfer information right

right but the words are different from the

but the words are different from the meaning

meaning you see as I speak you understand the

you see as I speak you understand the meaning of my words [snorts]

meaning of my words [snorts] it's is something different the place of

it's is something different the place of meaning is the place of consciousness.

meaning is the place of consciousness. The your ears, your brain processes the

The your ears, your brain processes the data, you know, isolates the words, puts

data, you know, isolates the words, puts them together, correlates with your

them together, correlates with your memories, etc. does like a computer data

memories, etc. does like a computer data processing. But at the end of the at the

processing. But at the end of the at the end of the line, the meaning, the

end of the line, the meaning, the understanding, that's a place of

understanding, that's a place of consciousness. And that's what we we

consciousness. And that's what we we enjoy communicating, you know, among

enjoy communicating, you know, among human beings because it takes us back to

human beings because it takes us back to this place. It's mysterious. The fact

this place. It's mysterious. The fact the the the physicist

the the the physicist shinger shinger one of his books

shinger shinger one of his books he has a question

he has a question how is it possible that we communicate

how is it possible that we communicate at all? He means communicate meaning

at all? He means communicate meaning because it's not obvious because

because it's not obvious because [clears throat] through physics [snorts]

[clears throat] through physics [snorts] we have a very good model how we

we have a very good model how we communicate information

communicate information right we have what is called unitary

right we have what is called unitary processes in physics the unitarity the

processes in physics the unitarity the kind of conservation of information

but information is very different from

information is very different from meaning. Meaning is not about phys.

meaning. Meaning is not about phys. Physics cannot account for meaning. Only

Physics cannot account for meaning. Only consciousness can.

I always wanted to ask this question. Do you think mathematics and music exist

Do you think mathematics and music exist independently and objectively from us or

independently and objectively from us or they exist because we exist?

they exist because we exist? Or I

Or I you see everything exists independently

you see everything exists independently from us as human beings. Let's put it

from us as human beings. Let's put it this way.

this way. Nothing

Nothing exists independently from us as

exists independently from us as consciousness. Now if you ask me

consciousness. Now if you ask me specifically of mathematics and it's a

specifically of mathematics and it's a conversation

conversation I I had some time to a friend of mine

I I had some time to a friend of mine who is a mathematician Edward Frankle

and there is this thing that

there is this thing that young Carl Young called the the the

young Carl Young called the the the world of archetypes you know the

world of archetypes you know the unconscious

unconscious >> [clears throat]

>> And there are archetypes like that that are common to the human psyche,

that are common to the human psyche, right? [clears throat]

right? [clears throat] They are kind of mysterious.

They are kind of mysterious. I had this lady, a friend of mine,

I had this lady, a friend of mine, she had a heart attack. She went to the

she had a heart attack. She went to the hospital and they gave her a lot of

hospital and they gave her a lot of morphine and she was very concerned. She

morphine and she was very concerned. She was in pain

was in pain and she told me that she was interested

and she told me that she was interested in spiritual matters

in spiritual matters that in this half dream half awakened

that in this half dream half awakened state she was in

state she was in at some point she had the image

at some point she had the image of a serpent of a snake biting its own

of a serpent of a snake biting its own tail.

tail. And then all became clear and that her

And then all became clear and that her fear and her concern vanished as seeing

fear and her concern vanished as seeing this and this uh

this symbolic circle right but with a snake eating is is you find that in many

snake eating is is you find that in many in different tradition it's part of the

in different tradition it's part of the of the unconscious. So yes, there are

of the unconscious. So yes, there are realms

realms where there are forms such as the form

where there are forms such as the form of the serpent, you know, uh which are

of the serpent, you know, uh which are independent from any specific human

independent from any specific human being. We we have not been taught about

being. We we have not been taught about it, you know, it's it's there. we we

it, you know, it's it's there. we we kind of

kind of and but what is interesting and that's

and but what is interesting and that's what

what we talk often with Edward uh

we talk often with Edward uh as mathematicians we we know we we we

as mathematicians we we know we we we have this deep intuition that when we

have this deep intuition that when we discover something

discover something it was already there

it was already there it's not something that we just create

it's not something that we just create that which gets created creat created is

that which gets created creat created is the proof but we

the proof but we through our creativity we didn't know

through our creativity we didn't know how to prove this okay now now I I prove

how to prove this okay now now I I prove it but that which we have proven this

it but that which we have proven this mathematical reality that we prove

mathematical reality that we prove existed independently from us you know

existed independently from us you know if we discover a new property of the

if we discover a new property of the prime numbers

prime numbers uh if we dis it existed before we

uh if we dis it existed before we discovered it

discovered it so and and and and so and and so but

so and and and and so and and so but what is beautiful about mathematics is

what is beautiful about mathematics is that

that there are lots of mathematical ideas

there are lots of mathematical ideas and they are all belong to this to this

and they are all belong to this to this realm and what is interesting about this

realm and what is interesting about this realm of mathematical ideas is that

realm of mathematical ideas is that there is no time elapsing there.

there is no time elapsing there. You see the number pi uh sorry the

You see the number pi uh sorry the number pi or the number e

number pi or the number e they don't evolve in time.

they don't evolve in time. pi is not a function of t and e is not a

pi is not a function of t and e is not a function of e. The number pi is always

function of e. The number pi is always three.14.

Yeah. And it doesn't evolve. You see? And

And what is a

what is a what is a tensor? What is

an open set? What is a a continuous function? What is an integral? All of

function? What is an integral? All of that partial derivative. All of that

that partial derivative. All of that is out there. Or prime number or the

is out there. Or prime number or the or the remain conjecture. All of that is

or the remain conjecture. All of that is already there.

already there. Even if it has not been proven yet per

Even if it has not been proven yet per it will be proven at some point

it will be proven at some point hopefully.

hopefully. >> So we discover math at least the

>> So we discover math at least the >> a new territory just as discovering

>> a new territory just as discovering Mars. So

Mars. So >> and must be objective existence then

>> and must be objective existence then that's the only conclusion I get.

that's the only conclusion I get. >> Yeah. And also because there is this uh

>> Yeah. And also because there is this uh uncanny connection also between math and

uncanny connection also between math and the world.

We start from the world. We see a we see a circle, right? But the circle we see

a circle, right? But the circle we see in the world is never perfect, right?

in the world is never perfect, right? It's always limited.

It's always limited. But then from there

But then from there we move to the notion of

we move to the notion of a plane,

a plane, a point which is the center, a set of

a point which is the center, a set of point and the set of point which has on

point and the set of point which has on the plane at the same distance of

the plane at the same distance of another point called center that is the

another point called center that is the perfect circle. Right? Then we we

perfect circle. Right? Then we we measure the

measure the we find a way to me measure the

we find a way to me measure the circumference

circumference from the diameter

from the diameter using the number pi. So the number pi

using the number pi. So the number pi gets defined right now. But then in a

gets defined right now. But then in a totally different branch of mathematics,

totally different branch of mathematics, we take one series like the sum of 1 + 1

we take one series like the sum of 1 + 1 / 2² + 1 / 3 squared etc etc.

/ 2² + 1 / 3 squared etc etc. If you add that up to infinity

If you add that up to infinity we find something which relates to pi.

we find something which relates to pi. So we find pi there from a totally uh

So we find pi there from a totally uh different direction. If we if we

different direction. If we if we calculate the integral from infinity to

calculate the integral from infinity to plus infinity of exponential minus x²

plus infinity of exponential minus x² also we find something that relates to

also we find something that relates to pi. I don't remember what it was. It's

pi. I don't remember what it was. It's like

like but I know there is pi or pi square in

but I know there is pi or pi square in it. So, so different approach and then

it. So, so different approach and then we are in a realm which is purely

we are in a realm which is purely conceptual, purely conceptual.

conceptual, purely conceptual. But then we go back to physics [snorts]

But then we go back to physics [snorts] and or then we go there and we

we go to the complex numbers. We move from the real

complex numbers. We move from the real numbers

numbers and we use this number square root of

and we use this number square root of minus1

minus1 I and the and and the complex number and

I and the and and the complex number and then also pi

then also pi mysteriously appears there also the same

mysteriously appears there also the same number pi and we have the exponential of

number pi and we have the exponential of i pi equals minus1 right this famous

i pi equals minus1 right this famous beautiful formula but then we move to

beautiful formula but then we move to physics modern physics quantum physics

physics modern physics quantum physics physics and these complex numbers and

physics and these complex numbers and the pi appears everywhere in all all the

the pi appears everywhere in all all the formulas you know it's it's everywhere

formulas you know it's it's everywhere and

this some mathemat mathematical theory like hilbert spaces and

like hilbert spaces and uh her mission operators unitary

uh her mission operators unitary operators they they come and they they

operators they they come and they they are used as tools to describe to

are used as tools to describe to describe reality. And with a highly with

describe reality. And with a highly with a great predictive power, we can

a great predictive power, we can we can

we can predict the value of some

predict the value of some some constants

some constants with I don't know how many decimals I

with I don't know how many decimals I forgot but nine decimals.

forgot but nine decimals. Uh

Uh so it's it's really [snorts]

so it's it's really [snorts] extraordinary and what that tells me is

extraordinary and what that tells me is this connection between the matter

this connection between the matter reality which is measured by physics and

reality which is measured by physics and the other aspect the mind aspect which

the other aspect the mind aspect which is more connected to consciousness right

is more connected to consciousness right the physics is connected to reality and

the physics is connected to reality and the math is connected to consciousness

the math is connected to consciousness [snorts]

[snorts] but how to [clears throat] explain that

but how to [clears throat] explain that the math is connected to reality to to

the math is connected to reality to to to physics.

to physics. It's because reality at its highest

It's because reality at its highest level is connected to consciousness and

level is connected to consciousness and they are one. So that's for me what I

they are one. So that's for me what I take from this u uncanny

take from this u uncanny efficiency of mathematics

efficiency of mathematics uh in physics.

uh in physics. It's it's remarkable. So you have a a

It's it's remarkable. So you have a a very good example is Dra Dra's equation

very good example is Dra Dra's equation uh uh Dak's equation is the equation

uh uh Dak's equation is the equation that in the

that in the modern physics uh describes

modern physics uh describes uh electrons

uh electrons and particles with spin 1/2 fmians

and particles with spin 1/2 fmians and the way he went about it. He he had

and the way he went about it. He he had this he started from another equation

this he started from another equation called Klein Gordon equation that was a

called Klein Gordon equation that was a quadratic equation

quadratic equation and he says well uh it would be nice to

and he says well uh it would be nice to have a linear equation so I could factor

have a linear equation so I could factor this quadratic equation in two fact if I

this quadratic equation in two fact if I could do this but

could do this but he had a

he had a moment of genius by he couldn't do this

moment of genius by he couldn't do this in a

in a with a scalar field. He needed a vector

with a scalar field. He needed a vector field to to do it and

field to to do it and he needed a vector field with four

he needed a vector field with four components at the time. So he realized

components at the time. So he realized it that was purely a mathematical

it that was purely a mathematical genius. He puts matrices, we call them

genius. He puts matrices, we call them direct matrices in the equation, factors

direct matrices in the equation, factors this and comes up with an equation.

this and comes up with an equation. This equation does two things. Number

This equation does two things. Number one, it describes the spin which is an

one, it describes the spin which is an intrinsic property of the electron.

intrinsic property of the electron. It describes a spin. That's the first

It describes a spin. That's the first thing. But it does something more.

thing. But it does something more. There are solutions with positive energy

There are solutions with positive energy and there are solutions with negative

and there are solutions with negative energy and the negative energy solution

energy and the negative energy solution correspond to antimatter correspond to

correspond to antimatter correspond to the positron

the positron and a few years after the after direct

and a few years after the after direct uh creating the posit

uh creating the posit [clears throat]

direct formulating the hypothesis of a particle that would have the same mass

particle that would have the same mass spin. in as the electron but a negative

spin. in as the electron but a negative charge, a positive charge instead of the

charge, a positive charge instead of the electron.

electron. Two or three years after the posetron

Two or three years after the posetron was actually discovered

was actually discovered in the world, right? Antimatter that was

in the world, right? Antimatter that was the the beginning. But all of that from

the the beginning. But all of that from the beauty of the mathematics

the beauty of the mathematics and an elegant solution an elegant and

and an elegant solution an elegant and very creative very intelligent

very creative very intelligent discovery.

discovery. So this connection between consciousness

So this connection between consciousness and reality of the world between

and reality of the world between consciousness and the world

consciousness and the world between math and [snorts] physics.

between math and [snorts] physics. >> Interesting.

>> Interesting. You could be teaching mathematics and

You could be teaching mathematics and physics next to adant.

physics next to adant. >> I've done I've done that at some point

>> I've done I've done that at some point in my

in my >> All right. I could tell [laughter] you

>> All right. I could tell [laughter] you explain very well because math is not my

explain very well because math is not my strong point. I mean music is but math

strong point. I mean music is but math to be honest. I

to be honest. I >> the same with music. Music is also music

>> the same with music. Music is also music is it's a different story but the music

is it's a different story but the music is Jean Klein used to say the music is

is Jean Klein used to say the music is at the end of the piece.

at the end of the piece. What does he mean by that?

What does he mean by that? >> When everything comes together,

>> When everything comes together, the music keeps us waiting for the

the music keeps us waiting for the resolution, right? We we are we have

resolution, right? We we are we have this thing up. We have a dissonance and

this thing up. We have a dissonance and then we wait, you know, we have the

then we wait, you know, we have the >> Yeah, I know what you mean. G come

>> Yeah, I know what you mean. G come resolution most of the times unless

resolution most of the times unless you're playing [laughter]

you're playing [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. But but on the on the other

>> Yeah. Yeah. But but on the on the other hand, if you if you if you always had

hand, if you if you if you always had perfect perfect chords, it's boring. So

perfect perfect chords, it's boring. So you need a little excitement, right? You

you need a little excitement, right? You need a little dissonance and then we

need a little dissonance and then we save it, right? And and and so there are

save it, right? And and and so there are these little cadences in the in the

these little cadences in the in the piece constantly and then there are more

piece constantly and then there are more overarching

overarching stories in which we reach a resolution.

stories in which we reach a resolution. We have the first scene for instance in

We have the first scene for instance in a sonata form type of piece. We have the

a sonata form type of piece. We have the first scene, then we have a bridge, then

first scene, then we have a bridge, then we have the second scene that I expose,

we have the second scene that I expose, then we have the development, then they

then we have the development, then they play together, right? And then we have a

play together, right? And then we have a conclusion, right? And and but all of

conclusion, right? And and but all of that there is a beginning and end, a

that there is a beginning and end, a beginning and end. There is a tension

beginning and end. There is a tension and a resolution. A tension and the

and a resolution. A tension and the resolution. The great conductor, I don't

resolution. The great conductor, I don't know whether you like him. I love him.

and and and he was giving a master class and he he

he was giving a master class and he he he said what in music really

he said what in music really there are no dynamics for piano and

there are no dynamics for piano and forte forget about it there is tension

forte forget about it there is tension and release tension and release that's

and release tension and release that's what music is and because

what music is and because going to the point as we release we

going to the point as we release we [snorts] go back to our true nature you

[snorts] go back to our true nature you see

see the release of the tension. It's like

the release of the tension. It's like the release of a desire. At the end of

the release of a desire. At the end of the desire, the desire is satisfied.

the desire, the desire is satisfied. We go to our we go to this place of of

We go to our we go to this place of of and and so the music it's some kind of

and and so the music it's some kind of you are addicted, you know, to to this

you are addicted, you know, to to this tension and releasing, you know, you

tension and releasing, you know, you play this game and and you you enjoy it.

play this game and and you you enjoy it. It's a it's a celebration.

It's a it's a celebration. >> I repeat myself. Unless you play Sati,

>> I repeat myself. Unless you play Sati, Eric, Sati [laughter]

And then it's beginning at the end it's all tension. [laughter]

all tension. [laughter] >> He's not too bad. So you you play the

>> He's not too bad. So you you play the piano.

piano. >> Yeah, I play piano.

>> Yeah, I play piano. >> Yes. So So yeah, but but look, you know,

>> Yes. So So yeah, but but look, you know, I like simple piece on the piano. I like

I like simple piece on the piano. I like I like the Schubert. I like all of all

I like the Schubert. I like all of all of Shopan, you know. I like Mozart

of Shopan, you know. I like Mozart conertos, of course. I like Beethoven

conertos, of course. I like Beethoven sonatas and

sonatas and >> plain I love Bach. I mean although my my

>> plain I love Bach. I mean although my my my latest is just the the whole the

my latest is just the the whole the whole polyhony it just does something to

whole polyhony it just does something to my [laughter] brain you know I just

my [laughter] brain you know I just >> I don't know what it is but you come so

>> I don't know what it is but you come so filled with something after that because

filled with something after that because so rich it is although recently I'm

so rich it is although recently I'm playing

playing now

now >> bar is god is always present in bar it's

>> bar is god is always present in bar it's it's always

it's always kind of the perfection in the in the

kind of the perfection in the in the prelude it's like

prelude it's like >> tative

>> tative trying to find the key note, right? And

trying to find the key note, right? And then you have the keynote and boom, the

then you have the keynote and boom, the fuel.

fuel. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> It's fabulous. Fabulous. I have

>> It's fabulous. Fabulous. I have important questions to ask you before

important questions to ask you before otherwise I'll keep you too long and I

otherwise I'll keep you too long and I promise not to. Um, [snorts]

people are always interested how can we explain the anomalous phenomena such as

explain the anomalous phenomena such as precognition, out of body experiences,

precognition, out of body experiences, premonitions, apparitions like ghosts

premonitions, apparitions like ghosts and UFOs, mediumship, interactions with

and UFOs, mediumship, interactions with diseased relatives and friends, you name

diseased relatives and friends, you name it, there's a whole list. Is there a way

it, there's a whole list. Is there a way that advanc

that advanc can explain or does it offer an

can explain or does it offer an explanation? When they happen they are

explanation? When they happen they are kind of confirmation for me of the

kind of confirmation for me of the oneness

oneness of the of the of of nonduality that

of the of the of of nonduality that there is only one reality and that

there is only one reality and that consciousness is this reality that there

consciousness is this reality that there are confirmation of that and there in if

are confirmation of that and there in if I take that in a religious term there

I take that in a religious term there are smiles there are gods smiling at us

are smiles there are gods smiling at us [snorts] there are smiles of God but I'm

[snorts] there are smiles of God but I'm not interest in this sense that I'm not

not interest in this sense that I'm not going to seek to own them. I'm not going

going to seek to own them. I'm not going to move the little finger to to try to

to move the little finger to to try to acquire any of these

acquire any of these features. And so they don't

features. And so they don't they don't excite me in this sense of

they don't excite me in this sense of doing research in them, but but they

doing research in them, but but they truly exist. I myself I have I've I've

truly exist. I myself I have I've I've experienced that and in no uncertain

experienced that and in no uncertain terms,

terms, you see. Uh for instance, I had this

you see. Uh for instance, I had this friend in France.

friend in France. Uh we used to he was in Tusen and he

Uh we used to he was in Tusen and he used to come to my place in the evening.

used to come to my place in the evening. He was a very nice

He was a very nice man. So we would talk about the truth,

man. So we would talk about the truth, meditate, etc. Okay. Several years

meditate, etc. Okay. Several years later, I moved to America.

later, I moved to America. He lived in Bordeaux, France. And uh I

He lived in Bordeaux, France. And uh I was in America. I was in France for a

was in America. I was in France for a few days and I happened to be in

few days and I happened to be in Bordeaux. I called him. His wife tell,

Bordeaux. I called him. His wife tell, "Oh, Francis, he would be very happy to

"Oh, Francis, he would be very happy to see you." Unfortunately,

see you." Unfortunately, he is on a trip. He went took a vacation

he is on a trip. He went took a vacation in the Alps to go fishing. So, the Alps

in the Alps to go fishing. So, the Alps is the other way of France. I say,

is the other way of France. I say, "Okay, uh, sorry, I'm here only for one

"Okay, uh, sorry, I'm here only for one day or two." So I gave up seeing him and

day or two." So I gave up seeing him and then I moved to the to my hometown with

then I moved to the to my hometown with my parents and two days later I'm there

my parents and two days later I'm there and I'm with another person and I I am

and I'm with another person and I I am in the city. I decide to show this

in the city. I decide to show this person the cathedral. So we go to the

person the cathedral. So we go to the cathedral. We enter the cathedral which

cathedral. We enter the cathedral which is old historic building and we move on

is old historic building and we move on the central a and when we reach the

the central a and when we reach the center of the of the cross you know the

center of the of the cross you know the cathedral the lateral door opens

cathedral the lateral door opens [snorts] and in the twilight a person

[snorts] and in the twilight a person enters

enters and starts moving and as it comes close

and starts moving and as it comes close it looks familiar to me. So I start

it looks familiar to me. So I start moving to this period to was this person

moving to this period to was this person and as comes close we recognize each

and as comes close we recognize each other and we are completely

other and we are completely stupified because it was not his his

stupified because it was not his his place. I thought he was in the ark. So

place. I thought he was in the ark. So the story from his side was he was

the story from his side was he was g get driving back home by train. His

g get driving back home by train. His train had some mechanical failure and he

train had some mechanical failure and he found himself stranded in the station of

found himself stranded in the station of my hometown. So for six hours. So he's

my hometown. So for six hours. So he's there waiting for the next train to go

there waiting for the next train to go to Bordo. He's there for 6 hours. He say

to Bordo. He's there for 6 hours. He say what do I'm going to take a walk in the

what do I'm going to take a walk in the town. He he had never been in this town.

town. He he had never been in this town. And then then and then he sees

And then then and then he sees cathedral. He said okay let's go to the

cathedral. He said okay let's go to the cathedral.

cathedral. But he entered the cathedral one minute

But he entered the cathedral one minute after me. So these two spiritual friends

after me. So these two spiritual friends life chose to meet them. I had this

life chose to meet them. I had this desire to meet him, you know, two days

desire to meet him, you know, two days before

before in the most spiritual place in the city,

in the most spiritual place in the city, you know, also the highest place, you

you know, also the highest place, you know, symbolically, you know, to reunite

know, symbolically, you know, to reunite us there, you know, to tell us, you

us there, you know, to tell us, you know, life is something else than what

know, life is something else than what what most people think, you know. So

what most people think, you know. So yes, I'm open to to Miracle. I know. I

yes, I'm open to to Miracle. I know. I know

know >> you really wanted to meet him. I think

>> you really wanted to meet him. I think [laughter]

and and and life obliged. [laughter]

[laughter] >> Yeah. But from point of view of like if

>> Yeah. But from point of view of like if we have like um a point of view of of

we have like um a point of view of of this consciousness, right? So somehow

this consciousness, right? So somehow our boundaries are not so

our boundaries are not so so sort of transparent now and then,

so sort of transparent now and then, right? If we are getting all sorts of,

right? If we are getting all sorts of, you know, strange appearances,

you know, strange appearances, channeling,

channeling, you know, kind of stuff, angels, you

you know, kind of stuff, angels, you name it. I mean, there's a whole list of

name it. I mean, there's a whole list of these operations,

these operations, >> many many things. But, you know, I I

>> many many things. But, you know, I I speak only from what I can experience,

speak only from what I can experience, right? And uh and mostly of what I

right? And uh and mostly of what I experience in the moment, except not

experience in the moment, except not very much of my past experience. That

very much of my past experience. That was an exception, this one. But um

because who cares about my past experience? You know what is important

experience? You know what is important is what we both can experience in the

is what we both can experience in the moment. You know that we that we can

moment. You know that we that we can really share.

really share. >> What happens after we die? Do you

>> What happens after we die? Do you believe in reincarnation or the embodied

believe in reincarnation or the embodied life is a one-way ticket?

life is a one-way ticket? >> If we ask this question, we first ask to

>> If we ask this question, we first ask to whom? To whom or to what? What happens

whom? To whom or to what? What happens to the physical body?

to the physical body? We know what happens.

We know what happens. What happens to consciousness? Nothing

What happens to consciousness? Nothing happens to consciousness. Consciousness

happens to consciousness. Consciousness remains this beautiful, happy uh uh

remains this beautiful, happy uh uh extraordinary

extraordinary thing. So we remain the same. What

thing. So we remain the same. What happened to the mind? We can

happened to the mind? We can consciousness can recreate whatever it

consciousness can recreate whatever it wants to recreate.

wants to recreate. Okay, next question.

Okay, next question. >> What is the most important advice would

>> What is the most important advice would you give to people who are on the path

you give to people who are on the path of truth seeking

of truth seeking about the nature of reality? That's what

about the nature of reality? That's what we mean.

we mean. >> Keep seeking. Keep seeking who you are.

>> Keep seeking. Keep seeking who you are. Keep seeking. I have to go.

Keep seeking. I have to go. >> Francis, thank you very much for your

>> Francis, thank you very much for your time and for this interview and for

time and for this interview and for sharing your stories. We totally

sharing your stories. We totally appreciate it. [music] Thanks a lot.

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YouTube Transcript:Francis Lucille: A Masterclass In Non-Duality

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Francis Lucille: A Masterclass In Non-Duality