The core theme of the discussion is a critical analysis of Zoran Mandani's political actions and their implications, particularly concerning his perceived support for Zionism and its impact on the Palestinian cause. The conversation emphasizes the need for consistent, critical engagement with politicians, regardless of their background or initial promises, to ensure genuine progress and accountability.
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Okay. The reason why I'm I'm willing to
like die on this hill, as I've said, is
because of the fact that we just
witnessed this genocide. When he says
that, okay, what he's saying is that
it's okay to be a Zionist. It's okay to
work with Zionists. It is not a
genocidal Jewish supremacist ideology.
But yeah, I wouldn't describe him as an
anti-ionist because an anti-ionist
wouldn't appoint the Zionist as the head
of police. An anti-ionist wouldn't
appoint Apac Shak wouldn't endorse Apac
Shakur. An anti-Zionist is not going to
work with a liberal Zionist like Bernie
Sanders or Brad Lander. An anti-Zionist
is anti-Zionists.
And this is who Mdani is holding hands
with and raising his arms with. This is
who he's fundraising money with. This is
who he's campaigning with and giving
speeches with and taking his staffers,
his adviserss, and putting him on his
team. these Jewish liberal Zionists that
I've got with me Ahmed from Propaganda. Welcome.
Welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Pleasure. It's been a pleasure. Your
work is, you know, something that we've
had our eyes on for a long time here at
San Palestine. You were one of the first
names that came up when we relaunched
this podcast as someone that we wanted
to have on. Um, having seen the work
that you do with propaganda and co. I
think the first time that you came
across my radar, you know, fully was
when you did a video about what really
happened on October 7 and it just really
cut through the narrative, cut through
the propaganda and just showed the story
for what it is. And you know, that's
been the story, I think, of just sort of
following your work and following the
work of a lot of other people that do
independent media for the last two years
throughout this genocide. And having you
on here with us is is a is a real
pleasure. So, welcome.
>> Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure
and an honor and I look forward to
learning more about all the work that
you guys do. I've only just recently
been introduced, but I took a quick
glance at the uh Instagram page and it
looks like you guys are doing wonderful
work. So hopefully it's the first time
that we have you on of of because
there's a lot of things that we can talk
about um from geopolitics from the
Middle East about Syria about so many
things that sort of I think there's a
lot of shared ground and a lot of
probably difference of opinion as well
but today we wanted to focus something
that's quite topical that a lot of us
have been following closely. It's a name
that's become a household name that
probably none of us had heard of 12
months ago and that's of Zoran Mani the
mayor elect of New York City. someone
who you've been very vocal in your
criticism of um and obviously reporting
on over the last few months as his name
has sort of shot to fame. Um and it's
not so much about Zoran as an
individual. He is one person but it's
more so about what it represents. I
think what he does is one thing. What it
represents in the political sphere and
what it represents in terms of how we as
everyday people uh read all of these
updates and read all of these I guess
politics that's happening around us and
how we react to it and how it changes
the way that we see the world. I think
it's an important case study for us to
look at. And you know, when I saw all of
the things that you were talking about
online and I saw sort of the news that
was happening, we figured we have to get
you on and get you on as soon as
possible so that we can really just
break this down for those maybe in the
US and those around the world who are
watching with a keen eye. Um, I'm going
to jump straight into things and I want
you to just maybe break down for us
what's your core take. What's your take
on Zoran Mdani?
>> Okay. So what I have to say about Zoran
Mandani is the same thing that I have to
say about any politician.
We have to separate
from we need to separate between what
people say and what they do. And this is
a story that I feel like is as old as
time. Ever since the beginning of human
civilization, you've had people
essentially uh become politicians. And
these people say things and they earn
support for saying those things and then
they acquire power and then it just
becomes a a task to try and maintain
that power. Meanwhile, people are
wondering why haven't you done the
things that you said you were going to
do. So this isn't just about Zaramani.
In general, we have to be able to
criticize these people, okay,
constructively and pull them towards
what we want them to do, which is what
they said they would do. So, it's a a
very simple uh matter of of using
constructive criticism to pressure
people in a positive direction, which is
what they supposedly wanted in the first
place. So, if someone says, "I'm going
to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu,"
we need to try and make sure that they
try and do that, that they actually
tried to do that. Whether they succeed
or not is a different story, but the
point is they said they would do it. So,
we can't just forget that and settle
for, oh, the fact that they said it. Now
when it comes to Zaron Mandani,
I have been very vocal about the things
that he has said, the things he said he
would do and that I feel he's already
contradicting himself on, which is a red
flag for me. Uh but also the things he's
saying that are actively harming the
Palestine movement.
So for example,
he initially when you know raising money
and needing support and getting votes
you know spent a lot of time around the
Palestine activist groups in New York
City. He went to the protests and he
made certain comments about the inafalda.
inafalda.
uh this became a point of attack for the
Zionists and they criticized him and
instead of saying hey agree to disagree
and I don't need your votes anyway
because of how popular my campaign is he
capitulated to them and he said
>> that not only did he say well I
understand and acknowledge your
perspective you interpret the inifalda
to mean this I acknowledge that that's
how you interpret it he went beyond that
and he said I will from now on
discourage its use so he is taking the
slogan ans the chance of the people that
have been advocating uh for their own
liberation for almost a century now and
have just experienced a genocide and
he's saying that their language he's
going to discourage the the use of their
language now that started with the invad
is he soon going to start saying I I
condemn uh from the river to the sea I
condemn uh any other kind of language
coming from the Palestinians in America
that are using their their right to
freedom of speech to to protest. So
these are things that you know he has
said that I feel harm the movement. Uh
but there are also things that he's
saying he's going to do that he's
already contradicting himself on. So,
you know, for example, and he I don't
think he said this during the campaign,
but in the leadup to it, obviously, when
he's building relationships with like
the Democratic Socialists and all the
other activist groups, he attends a
meeting and he grabs the microphone and
he says the N when the NYPD has a boot
on your neck. You know, that that is not
just the NYPD, that's the IDF because
they have a relationship with one
another. So when the New York Police
Department illegally surveills the
Muslim American community and when they
apply the tactics that are being used to
oppress and police the indigenous
population of Palestine and commit
genocide against them, those tactics are
also being shared with the NYPD and
they're being used on whoever is being
used on in the city. >> Um
>> Um
>> and they actually collaborate and they
train together and they
>> Exactly. They have an office in Tel
Aviv. Yeah. and he knows all about it
and he spoke about it
>> and then when he has an opportunity to
select a new NYPD NYPD commissioner he
decides not to and he reappoints a
Zionist Jewish billionaire that is not a
liberal Zionist this is not like Brad
Lander who we'll talk about later or
Bernie Sanders this is a proper full-on
Zionist Zionist
and you know speaking at the ADL saying
that these people are our enemies we are
at war with them and they hate us just
because we are Jewish and they are Hamas
terrorists. And she is responsible for
now cracking down on the protests and
the encampments at the universities like
at Colombia for example. and this is the
person who will be in charge. And also,
this is the woman that was leading the
charge of this controversial
surveillance program in which they were
violating the rights of innocent Muslim
American uh citizens of New York City.
And he reappoints her and not only does
he reappoint her, but he praises her and
he smiles next to her and takes a
picture with her. Um, and so this
contradicts what he has said. This is
problematic and this is taking place at
a time. Okay. The reason why I'm I'm
willing to like die on this hill, as
I've said, is
because of the fact that we just
witnessed this genocide.
Like I think we need to always speak out
against Zionism regardless. There
there's up until October 7th, there was
enough history and enough reasons to
point at this group of people and say
they are the enemy. They must be
defeated. It needs to be dismantled.
Palestine needs to be free. There was
enough evidence.
>> Yeah. After October 7th, it became a
hundred times that. Okay, the urgency
just exploded.
>> We exist now in a time where there has
never been more urgency. And also, there
has never been more momentum because
over the last two years, we've seen
support for Zionism collapse. We are
seeing conservative Republican Christian
Americans for the first time just see
through the propaganda. It's completely
collapsed. Judeo-Christian values,
America being and Israel being, you
know, great allies of one another. This
whole narrative has collapsed and these
people are now willing to humanize the
Palestinians and resist Zionism. And so
we need to build upon this momentum and
we need to actually make progress. We
can't have a genocide take place and
then no progress actually take place.
And so when someone like Zoran Mandani
comes in and he appoints a Jewish
Zionist police commissioner and he
endorses Hakeim Jeff who is who many
people call Apex Shakur and he works
with liberal Zionists and he and he
tells the media, okay, he said this very
proudly, all right, with no remorse. He
said, "Look, I'm going to represent
everyone in New York City and there are
going to be Zionists in my in my
administration. I'm going to have them
in my administration. Now, some people
said, "Oh, he's" What he means is there
will be people already part of like the
New York City administration and staff
that he didn't directly appoint. Uh, or
there are people who are privately
Zionist, etc., etc. But no, he didn't
just mean that. He he meant I'm going to
actually appoint them and work with them
like he did with Jessica Tish. So, it's
not just, oh, they already exist and
they're there and I didn't choose them.
It's I'm going to choose them. When he
says that, okay, what he's saying is
that it's okay to be a Zionist.
It's okay to work with Zionists. It is
not a genocidal Jewish supremacist
ideology. It is not
>> because you're accepting their role in
society and you're accepting them in
your administration.
>> And yes, and you're you're collaborating
with them. You're working with them.
You're appointing them. So, what you're
inadvertently saying is that's okay.
>> So, I pose a very simple question. If
you're willing to work with Zionists,
would you include neo-Nazis in your
administration? Would you include white
supremacists in your administration?
Would you invite Nick Fuentes to be part
of your administration? Would you
include gropers to be part of your administration?
administration? >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Does anyone really believe Mamani would
ever dare say that in New York City?
>> No. Of course.
>> From a principal perspective, he'd lose
his support base.
>> Yes. Absolutely. And that is I think
indicative of what he thinks and
indicative of the problem that we as
people think. And this is something I
say it's not just about Zar Mandani,
it's about us as the people. We are
allowing him to to make these kinds of
mistakes. And so it's it's not just his
fault, it's our fault. And so what I'm
saying is we need to be mindful of these
things, raise awareness about it, and
constructively criticize him. Obviously,
he's better than the mayor that he is
replacing. think he's better than the
mayor candidates he was running against.
He's better than probably most of the
candidates that could ever appear in the
United States. I acknowledge that. I
support that. I want him to exist. I
want him to succeed. I want him to be
better. At the same time, he's doing
incredibly problematic things that I
think needs to be called out. Why?
Because I want him to fail. No, because
I want us all to succeed. So, that's the
core of our
>> There's there's a lot to unpack there
from the criticism that you've got. I I
want to go deeper into them and push
back in them as well. Play play a bit of
the advocate because I think there's a
lot of arguments that people might have
in response to you and they they'd want
to see them addressed. But just before
that, are there any I guess you sort of
touched on it at the end there, but are
there any positives that you see in
Mani's campaign, in his election, in his
stances that he's taken, in the progress
that we've made by the fact that he's
been appointed? Like what's the
positive? Because there's a lot of
criticism they pointed out, but I'm sure
there's positives as well that you see.
I don't think there's any positives yet
because I don't believe in I don't
believe in identity politics. I don't
care if a broomstick was elected
president of the United States.
>> It's what that uh person or broomstick
represents. So, I don't care if we have
the first woman or the first brown man
or the first Muslim or the first
Palestinian. I don't give a damn. It
doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean
anything. Barack Obama, the first
African-American president in United
States history. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> What crimes did he commit? What did he
do for the billionaire class? Okay. So,
I don't care
>> what he did for the African-Americans as well.
well.
>> Exactly. Now, obviously, there are
things people will point to, but in in
the grand scheme of things since 200,
okay, we had eight years of Obama. Are
things better or worse?
>> Worse. So, I don't care uh about him
being elected as a Muslim American. That
doesn't mean anything to me. So, as of
yet, I don't think he's done anything good.
good.
>> How about I I guess one one point that
people will make is the fact that
probably the defining factor in his win
or one of the defining factors was his
anti-Israel stance. A lot of people
argue that he won the election on the
day of the the Democratic primary debate
when it was sort of was almost like a
like a FN Friday night a Saturday Night
Live skit where you know all of the
other candidates said that the first
foreign country that they'd visit would
be Israel my first visit my four fourth
visit my seventh visit to go and kiss
the waiting wall and then Mana was the
only one who said I'd stick here in New
York and it was probably in that moment
that he shot to fame and he really made
himself the favorite to win the election.
election.
the fact that he won on what a lot of
people would position as an anti-Zionist
stance despite how you're painting it
right now. Isn't that a positive in and
>> Um,
of [clears throat] course, uh, that was
a great moment and I would argue that
that's why not that he won. Uh, it's
very difficult to measure why he
actually won. It's a combination of
things, but definitely it's why everyone
knew his name because that most people I
think weren't even aware that there was
a race taking place in New York City for
the position of mayor. It was that clip
that uh propelled him, I think, into the
mainstream. And so, yes, his existence
as a candidate, I wouldn't describe him
as anti-ionist. Not yet. In fact, there
are people, and I won't go I wouldn't go
this far. Maybe one day soon I will. But
I wouldn't go as far as to call him a
Zionist, but there are people, okay,
proper activist on Instagram.
>> I think you've called him a Zionist.
>> I've called him Zion Mandani.
>> I've called him Zion Matti as a as a
joke and to troll him, but I I don't
actually call him uh a Zionist. Not yet.
But there are people. Sure.
>> Yeah. There are people that I respect,
people that I listen to like Professor
David Miller. Um there are many
activists that are, you know, willing to
call him Zionist and they're not
necessarily wrong. They're just but
they're thinking of it from a very uh I
guess you could say a technical
perspective. Uh I'm not willing to go
that far yet. Um but yeah, I wouldn't
describe him as an anti-ionist because
an anti-ionist wouldn't appoint the
Zionist as the head of police. An
anti-zionist wouldn't appoint Apac Shak
wouldn't endorse Apac Shakur. An
anti-ionist is not going to work with a
liberal Zionist like Bernie Sanders or
Brad Lander. An anti-Zionist is anti-Zionists.
anti-Zionists.
>> Okay. So, yeah, I I wouldn't say he's an anti-sionist.
anti-sionist.
>> Um before we go, I want to go into some
of those ones specifically, the specific
examples that he mentioned and people
that he supported and why that's
problematic. Um but I I I guess just
before that, one question that a lot of
people would have is you're not even
giving him time. He hasn't even started
his term as the mayor. He's still got
he's still in the transition phase. Eric
Adams is still the current mayor of New
York City spending his time in Jerusalem
with Benjamin Netanyahu and whatever
other Zionist's feet is kissing.
You know, at least give Mi some time.
Give him a chance. You don't know what
his stances are actually going to be
once he's in power. Why are you so harsh
before he's even taken taken?
>> I think this I think this argument can
can very easily be flipped on his head.
Many people have said, "How can you
judge him when he hasn't even been
elected yet?" Like there there isn't any
evidence of his position, right? There
isn't any evidence that can be used
against him because he hasn't even been
elected yet. I think it's the opposite.
I think there's already plenty of
evidence that he's moving in the wrong
direction. He's made all these
problematic decisions and he has Sorry,
not elected. He hasn't even uh entered
the role yet. He has been elected. He's
been chosen. He's been selected. The
election is over.
>> Yeah. Yeah,
>> but he's not even become mayor yet. He's
not even mayor yet. And he's already
appointed Jessica Tish. He's not even
mayor yet. And he's already endorsed
Jeff. He's not even mayor yet. And he's
already condemned Palestinian
protesters. and he's policing their
language and saying I discourage the use
of the I am discouraging your use to
your uh ability and your your decision
and how you choose to express okay your
desire for resistance and your
expression of pain because your people
have just been incinerated on camera and
this guy is attending their protests and
he's speaking their language when it
it's completely okay when he needs their
votes and not only did he need their
votes but he needed them okay to go out
in canvas knock on doors for free. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> for free. That's how he competed against
these billionaires with all their money.
So, how does he convince them to spend
their time? These are not wealthy
people. They're living in a city which
he says is not very affordable and
they're not making a lot of money. They
could be out there doing better things
for themselves. But he convinced them to
serve him and get him in power. And how
did he do that? By endorsing their
language. Then the moment he got
elected, he condemned their language.
So, he exploited the Palestinian cause
like many other people. And I don't have
patience for it anymore because we just
witnessed the worst of the worst crimes
committed against the Palestinian people
in its entire history. Okay? We watch
people get flattened to death. So I
don't care that you're brown, that
you're Muslim, that you just became
mayor. It doesn't mean anything to me.
What matters to me now first and
foremost is Palestine. And I get that's
not going to be as important to everyone
else. Obviously, it's not the only thing
that matters. People's affordability
matters. All these other things matters.
But if we want to talk about not just
Palestine, if this guy is actually gonna
fight the Democratic establishment,
there's enough evidence now to point to
suggest that he's not going to do that.
He appointed Hakee Jeff, okay? The
gatekeeper of the Democratic establishment.
establishment.
>> Okay, this guy is not just in bed with
Apac, he's in bed with every industry
that legally bribes. That's what that is
what lobbying is. They legally bribe
these candidates to keep the door closed
on any kind of change. That's why
healthcare does not improve. That's why
infrastructure does not improve. That's
why transportation does not improve.
That's why nothing improves. And if
you're not going to Okay, fine. He
didn't support the guy who was going to primary
primary
Hakeim Jeff. But he didn't just say,
"Hey, I'm not going to support you
because maybe this is not the best race.
Maybe you can't win and I don't want to
use my political power right now and and
back a guy who could lose." Okay, fine.
>> Then stay neutral. Stay neutral. Hey, do
what you got to do. But I'm not going to
endorse you right now or stay out. Can
can you be on that he endorsed him?
>> Ju just th some of the detail cuz
because we were having a laugh earlier
that about us being in Australia on the
other side of the globe. There's a lot
of people who might see the headlines.
They see someone like Mamani gets
elected. They see you know the maybe big
headline news that comes out of the US
but they might not follow the specific
details. Can you go into maybe a bit
more info for us? Who is Hakeim Jeff?
Why is he so problematic? What did Zoran
say about him? And what's you know the
story as you were saying with the the um
primary candidate or comp competition
against Jeff what was the story there
for those who maybe didn't follow us closely.
closely.
So Hakee Jeff is a Democratic
congressman and he is uh been in the
party and he's been a congressman for
quite some time. He served on, you know,
many different committees and he is um
currently the speaker uh for the
Democratic Party and he is in New York
State and he's a congressman of um a
certain district and he's up for
reelection next year. And so the time to
begin campaigning against him would be
now. Now, this person is also one of
Apac's largest supporters, biggest
supporters, and he's received over a
million dollars in support from Apac.
He's an ardent Zionist. He supported and
facilitated Israel's genocide in Gaza.
Uh was was very nasty and aggressive.
And obviously he receives money not just
from Apac but from all the major
industries whether it's you know oil for
those who are interested in in in you
know uh addressing climate change
whether it's pharmaceutical companies
the military-industrial complex excuse
me any industry this guy's taking money
from them he is essentially uh a human
fleshbag of just like selling out to
corporate interests and it it ruins the
lives of the American people and he is
one of many parts of the problem for why
The Democratic Party is not viewed as a
party that represents the American
working class. The Democratic Party is
simply the other side of a two-party
system, the other side of a two-party
coin that represents the wealthy, the
powerful, the elite. So, Hakee Jeff is
uh embodies that. Hakeem Jeff is like
the poster boy, the symbol, one of the
many symbols of corruption that needs to
be replaced. And there is um a young
candidate who's already been elected to
city council. He's kind of like a Mani.
He's just younger. And
he wants to primary him, but Manny has
discouraged him. Mani has has advocated
against him. He he attended a Democratic
Socialist meeting. Uh and the Democratic
Socialists if you don't know they are
like one of the largest organizations in
New York City and they are the reason
why candidates get elected candidates
like Mum Donnie or candidates like AOC
because they are young they are
energetic and they have a lot of members
and so it's not
>> they don't have money they have labor
and that labor is much more important
than the money. I think Mumdan has had
like a 100,000 canvasers or something
like that. That's possible. a lot of it,
not give the DSA all the credit, but
that's one of the reasons why they're a
very important driving force. So, this
candidate, this young candidate, he
wants to primary Hakeim Jeff. And so, he
went to the DSA seeking their support.
And Mumani went to the DSA and lobbied
against him and said, "Don't, this is
not the time.
>> This is not the time." And then he gets
on MSNBC
and he says,
>> um, so they ask him if if
>> Yeah. if if Hakeem Jeff is reelected,
would you support seeing him maintain
his position as speaker? And he said
yes. So he went beyond just saying, hey,
this is not the time because I feel like
maybe this you might lose. He went
beyond that and said no, actually like I
I think Hakeim Jeff not only should win,
he dumped with so much passion to say
yes before the question even finished.
>> Like it was a resounding endorsement.
>> Yeah. And and mind you, Hakeim Jeff did
not endorse Manny I think until the last second.
second.
>> So he withheld his endorsement the
entire time and then after his election,
the Republicans put forward the bill.
>> He didn't even mention him by name. He
said he he said I I will endorse the
Democratic nom nominee without him
saying Matt by name after >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> after Cromo.
>> So obviously he you know he's 100%
opposed to Manny all throughout and then
the Republicans put forward a bill in
Congress, a symbolic bill. didn't mean
anything. Uh condemning democratic
socialism, either democratic socialism
or socialism, I forget which one
specifically. Uh but Jeffre as a
Democrat voted with Republicans to
condemn that as a slap in the face to Mdani
Mdani
>> and Mumani is like, "Yeah, I'd be happy
to have this guy." So, you know, it's
just it's capitulation. It's it's I
think it's weak.
>> Um but it's also just a sign that you're
not really serious about the things you
say. You say this country needs a
political revolution. we need to to like
fight like our lives depend on it to
make change ASAP. Not just for
Palestine, but for like every other issue.
issue.
>> And then you endorse the guy who's
preventing all of that. Okay. Well,
we've seen this before. We've seen it
with Bernie Sanders. We've seen it with
AOC. There are people who come from the
left who who say, "I'm not a Democrat.
I'm a Democratic socialist." So, like,
hey, I'm not part of this toxic brand
that is a Democratic party. I'm a
Democratic socialist. But then they run
as Democrats and they take people
outside of the Democratic party that no
longer want to vote for the Democrats.
They don't want to vote for uh people
like Hakeim Jeff. They want other kinds
of people. Well, what ends up happening
is these people become a vehicle and
they funnel money and support into
Democratic candidates. So >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> journalists and academics like Chris
Hedges has been saying for years that
Bernie Sanders is simply a vehicle to
funnel people, okay, who are
disillusioned with the two-party system
back into the two-party system. Zoron
Mandani like AOC
is doing the same thing. So those are my criticisms.
criticisms.
>> Yeah. Um talk to me about uh Bernie
Sanders and um Accasia Quarters because
we see these types of people that come
up and they get a lot of support. They
draw up a lot of support because of the
language that they speak when they first
come in and they promise a lot and they
seem to be people that are outside of
the establishment. But then we see
especially when it comes to things like
the occupation in Palestine, they speak
very much the same language as those
that are within the system. Like where
do they fit? Because I know that you say
sort of the the Democratic socialist and
they come into the party. Like what's
the pressure that's on these people? Do
they speak the way that they speak
because they're just playing a game? Do
they truly believe in the language that
they're speaking? like what's how do we
understand this this version of liberal?
>> So I think this might be a little beyond
my scope here. Um but what I will say is
that uh somebody like Bernie Sanders
um has run technically outside of the
Democratic party. He's an independent I
think uh in Vermont.
Um but he's always voted alongside the
Democrats. He's worked with the
Democrats. He's run for president twice
uh seeking the Democratic nomination and
he eventually capitulated and supported
the candidates that undermined and
cheated him. >> And
>> And
I mean the only look the only thing I
can really say about Bernie Sanders is
if he was
serious about challenging the
establishment, he would put himself in a
position where he'd probably lose reelection.
reelection.
Uh but he's never done that. And his
argument is that it's better to stay in
power where I can affect some kind of
change, crumbs of change, gradual
change, stages of change. But ever since
Bernie Sanders has been in office, the
federal minimum wage has been $7.25. And
that hasn't changed.
>> And a guy like Bernie Sanders, you would
think, would make that like I got to die
on this hill. And who the whole
country's got the whole country, even if
you're a Republican, you're gonna say,
yo, 725 is absurd. Gotta be at least
nine, right? Can you fight for nine? Can
you fight for $9? No, you can't even do
that. And so I I think a guy like Bernie
Sanders is is more interested in his
career and just staying >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> remaining a part of the system. Now, I
don't want to go so far as to question
what's in his heart. I can't see what's
inside. Maybe he actually does think
it's better to to do nothing than like
achieve nothing while trying than, you
know, actually fighting and and
potentially losing access. But
>> I don't know. I don't see the the fruits
of his labor
>> because that's that's one of the big
arguments that people make is that well,
you know, the sort of criticisms that
you've made, you're asking too much. You
know, you're demanding too much. You're
expecting too much change to come from
the American democratic system. So why
don't we just accept that people like
Zoran will come and they'll shift that
the needle that little just sort of one
in this way. People like Bernie Sanders
before him laid the path for Zoran to
come and he'll lay the path for others
after him. Why don't you just accept
what they're doing rather than just
criticizing all the time and then not
allowing them a potential to do some
good at least?
>> Well, I'll tell you that I don't
actually expect anything from the
American political system. Uh, but I'm
still going to point out uh that we
should be expecting it. But I when I say
I don't expect it, it's u not because
I'm like a hopeless person. It's because
I've seen enough. I understand the way
it works. And I I'd rather
>> try to make the money to cover my own
health care than wait on Bernie Sanders
to try and get me healthare, you know?
So, uh, but that being said, that that
that doesn't mean I'm I'm not going to
vote for people who supposedly care
about it and will actually try. You
know, like I've despite everything I'm
saying about Bernie Sanders, I voted for
Bernie Sanders to become the okay, the
the nominee of the Democratic party. I
actually changed my registration to
Democrat to vote for Bernie. And then as
soon as it was done, I changed my
registration again back to a no no party
affiliation. So despite the fact that I
see through him, I don't believe in him,
I don't trust him, I recognize that he's
still better than Joe Biden or Hillary
Clinton. And I'd rather see him in
office and I voted for him. And if I and
if I lived in New York City, I would
have done the same, I think, for Mumani.
>> Maybe not a second time, though. And I
think that's the problem is a lot of
people simply don't understand the only
time you have leverage is at the points
of election. So
>> election time, they need your vote and
that's the only thing you can give them.
So they start, what do they do? They
sound like Malcolm X. Then they get
elected and then you get nothing from
them in between. Then comes the next
election and they want it again. At that
point, you should say, "I'm sorry,
brother. You You had your chance. I
can't give you the vote. That's it.
You've already proven to me you're not
going to do anything with it." But the
problem is we just forgive them and we
give it to them again. And then we just
perpetuate the cycle of electing in
people who are incapable of providing
actual change. Now
>> you say, is it better to move the
needle? The problem is that the needle
is moving at a
slug's pace. Okay? It's moving at a
turtle's pace when the problem is expon
is is moving at the speed of light. So,
for example,
>> 10 years ago, okay, when I was more
involved in activism because I didn't
have an actual job. [laughter]
Um, I would like be attending protests
with people that were demanding $15 an hour.
hour.
>> Okay. the fight for 15 as they call it
by the time by the time the needle moved
and it's and in 2025 there are still
places that don't have $15 an hour. Some
like the federal government never
changed it but some cities did, some
states, you know, made certain changes.
Um but for the most part, the majority
of the country still doesn't have $15 an
hour. Well, because of inflation, $15
[clears throat] an hour is not even
enough anymore for
>> That's right.
>> a living wage. So now you need like $30
an hour. >> And
>> And
>> so we're there are people telling us
like we just need to accept and play the
game and take that needle and and take
that inch when the problem is moving at
like a mile a minute.
>> So I don't think that's the way to go.
>> I think that analogy applies to
Palestine as well because you know we'll
have people that are demanding
recognizing Palestinian state maybe 10
years ago. Now, if they come to demand
that same thing, all of a sudden, the
borders have shifted further and further
and further into Gaza after the genocide
where now they've drawn the yellow line.
They've taken over half of Gaza. You'll
keep making those same demands and keep
saying that we just want to make this
little bit of progress so we can just
go, you know, closer towards our goals.
But before you know it, the goal post
completely shifted and now the
Palestinian state that you demand to
recognize is not even is not even the
22% that we had, you know, maybe 10 15
years ago. So that exact same analogy
that he described about the minimum wage
is exactly the same thing within and as
you said it's it's the need of our time
like this is what bigger you know cause
do you need to go out and push every
single barrier possible when we've seen
probably close to a million people that
have been killed and despite this we're
still arguing about you know recognizing
the fact that he said there's a genocide
happening in the west in in the white
house and that is meant to be apparently
enough to back because he said the word genocide
genocide
Like there's so much more that needs to
be done, isn't there?
>> Yeah, exactly. And and you rais a very
important point um particularly about
Zan Mandani saying the word genocide in
the White House. People are like, how
like important was it? How brave was
that? And you know what it it was I
think it was brave to say, but you know
who else called it a genocide? Marjorie
Taylor Green. You know who else called
it a genocide? Nick Fuentes. You know
who else called it?
>> Bernie Sanders. After two years of
denying it, after two years of denying it,
it,
>> and we'll talk more about Bernie Sanders
in a bit because there's there's a point
I I really want to clarify about these
liberal Zionists. >> But
>> But >> yes,
>> yes,
>> uh yeah, so calling it a genocide is not
a victory. It's not special. It's been
said already and it's been said by
people who actively supported Israel all
throughout. And it's been said by people
that some people call white nationalists
or white supremacists uh that are like
horrible racist inhumane people and
they've said it. So why am I going to
make a big deal about Mandani saying it
especially when uh he'll say it in the
White House but then endorse one of the
worst supporters of the genocide Jeff.
So there's what he says and there's what
he does. And this is my whole point
about establishing the difference
between what is said and what is done.
There is a difference. One matters more
than the other. So, yeah. Okay. Thank
Thank you for saying the word genocide.
Also, thank you for normalizing Zionists
by appointing a Jewish Zionist
billionaire as the police commissioner
by endorsing a Zionist to remain speaker
of the house. Thank you for, you know,
doing that. So, he's undermining what
he's saying. And I it's clear like he's
moving in a direction of just like a
political career and that's it. you
know, anything to stay in power, making
deals with Hakee Jeff and basically
being another AOC. So, >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> one thing I can't wrap my head around is
when you look at somebody like Manny, he
comes from a background where you expect
a level of political uh knowhow, you
know, understanding, you know, a a level
of um like integrity. when you look at,
you know, his father and his works on
anti-imperialism and anti-colonialism
and you look at just the upbringing and
the background that he's had and the
activism that he's been involved in for,
you know, 10, 15, 20 years, like was
there a point that I I don't know how
much you've looked into his progress and
his campaign. Is there a point where you
think things changed? I've seen a few
people sort of comment about, you know,
once he really gained traction and won
the primaries, the Democratic party
started trying to influence him. They
offered him, you know, some of Obama's
staffers and some of Biden's staffers to
support him and then he had to change
his language to get some of that
material support that's being offered to
him. Is is there any point that you see
that things change? Like, is this him
just selling out so that he can gain
power? Is this him uh are these just the
ideas and the ideals that he's held all
along? like h how do you speak this way
for so long and then come into power and
do absolutely nothing or go back on what
you've said?
>> I don't know. I I can't speak for you
know what he actually believes, what's
in his heart. Um all I'm saying is that
if his strategy is to kind of play the
political game to achieve a a victory in
the long term, what I'm saying is that's
a poor strategy. It's not going to happen.
happen.
>> The system will change you before you
can change the system. if you're not
coming at the system hard from the
get-go, like a Molotov cocktail because
that's what it needs. So, and from what
I do know about his past, there was a
video that went viral on Instagram.
There was a white woman. She said,
"Mumani just won and she opened up her
yearbook and she said, "I went to middle
school with this guy and I ran against
him for class president in nth grade and
he beat me and he was super charismatic,
etc., etc." And she shared a picture of
him and he had the same smile and grin
on his face. So it's clear that from a
very young age he was incredibly
charismatic. He was a good speaker and
he was interested in leadership. He was
interested in power even if it was in
the ninth grade. So the guy comes from a
background where he's always wanted
that. He's always pursued that and he's
always succeeded in doing that. So he's
experienced in doing what politicians do
best, speaking people's language to get
what you want from them. And so when
he's speaking to protesters, he needed them,
them,
>> you know. Yeah, bro. The antif, right?
Then Obama calls. Hey, you just won the
primary. Let's get let's make sure you win.
win.
Okay, Obama, you know, I'm down. Like,
change. Let's move at a needle's pace.
You're right. That's the right way to
go. So, he'll say whatever to whoever,
and I think there's enough evidence of that.
that.
>> And uh look, there there are people
who've had a radical past that have
become some of the worst like
establishment figures. Hillary Clinton,
if you really look at her youth, was
quite a radical figure. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. She was quite a radical figure. Uh
she flipped up 100% and we all know like who
who
>> she's more rightwing than Donald Trump.
>> Yeah, you could argue that in many
respects. Absolutely. Um and she's not
she's not the Barack Obama used to go to
fundraisers and he sat at a table with Ali
Ali
>> and he knew Edward
>> Exactly. Yes.
>> Yeah. This is Barack Obama and then when
he no longer needed them, you know what
happened? Like he I mean he he was
complicit in those crimes. Uh who else?
Uh Van Jones. There's this clip that has
gone viral of him recently. I mean the
guy is screaming like Malcolm X like
dressed like a Marxist who's going to
lead a revolution. And now look at him
crying for Biden on stage. No, not just
that. Before that, even more pathetic
and disgusting than that was when Joe
Biden got humiliated by Donald Trump
during the presidential debate, the
first one where like they were hiding
Biden. They were hiding him, okay, from
the public for years at this point.
Everyone was like, "Yo, this guy has
dementia. This guy's falling apart and
we're not seeing him in public anymore."
And they're like, "No, no, he's totally
fine. Like, he shouldn't drop out of the
race." Then he was forced to come out in
public and he looked like a corpse. like
they they stuck him with as much
adrenaline as they could.
>> Weakening that boot
>> and and he Yeah. And he was like falling
apart on stage and he was humiliated and
and Van Jones cried for him. Okay. So he
went from Malcolm X all right to crying
for uh Joe Biden the like the worst of
the worst because he was humiliated.
Like it's that meme from that Jango Unchanged.
Unchanged. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Go ahead. Yeah. for for those in
Australia, the best example that we have
is our prime minister, Anthony Albanesi.
He founded he's part of the Labour
Party. He founded the Labour Friends of
Palestine movement. Uh he's got videos
of him speaking in parliament for the
Palestinians, talking about the amount
of Palestinians that are killed from
back in like 2002.
And then once he came into power,
absolutely nothing. Once the genocide
started, absolutely nothing. And just
like every single other western leader,
providing full cover for genocide, um
continuing supply arms, continuing
supply trade, uh continuing diplomatic
relationships, absolutely zero pressure
to stop the genocide. Like this guy
knows, he's not oblivious, he knows the
details, but we see it as a pattern that
once they're in that position of power,
you do absolutely anything that you can
to hold on to that position.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I if I can now
I want to talk about uh liberal Zionist
and why this is a problem because a lot
of people are like okay what is Mam
Dani's role.
>> They're like he's not the mayor of
Ramla. He's the mayor of New York City.
He needs to do what's best for New York
City. And they're right about that. Um
you know he he needs to focus on
policies that affect New Yorkers. But as
we've seen just simply by the fact that
the NYPD has an office in Israel and
trains with the IDF,
>> foreign policy is domestic policy in
many respects. And when student
protesters are being attacked on campus
for protesting genocide because it's
criticizing a foreign entity, that is
foreign policy becoming domestic policy.
So yes, he's not the mayor of Ramallah,
but what happens in Ramla and what
happens in Israel is relevant to his
role as mayor of New York City. So
that's not a valid argument or an
excuse. But anyway, Zoran Mandani uh
affiliates himself with with liberal
Zionists like Brad Lander and Bernie
Sanders, and he thinks that's okay
because they're not Zionists like Ben
Gir is a Zionist. So, when people hear
us say
>> um you know, Bernie Sanders, liberal
Zionist, and far right-wing Zionists are
two sides of the same coin. They can't
understand how that's possible, right?
How can Ben Gavier be one side of the
coin and Bernie Sanders is the other?
They're so different and they are
different. The problem is they're also
very similar. So Bernie Sanders was
asked by Dina Takuri from AJ Plus many
years ago, like 10 years ago, I think at
this point, would you support a
one-state solution? You're you're saying
that Palestinians deserve rights. The
two-state solution is not viable
anymore. What would you say to a
one-state? You you love to call Israel a
democracy. What if it was just a
democratic state with everyone having
equal rights? Would you support that?
And he said, "No,
>> very bluntly, no, I don't because that
means the end of the Jewish state. And I
support Israel to exist as a Jewish
state. Which means Bernie Sanders as a
liberal Zionist supports Israel existing
as an ethnocracy, as an apartheid state inherently
inherently
because it won't include democratic
equal rights for non-Jews. That's one
aspect that Bernie Sanders and Ben Gir
have in common. They want the Jewish
state to exist as a Jewish state. But it
goes beyond that. When they asked Dina
Tukuri also asked him about the boycott,
divestment sanctions movement. Bernie
Sanders said, "I don't support that. I
think it's a a a movement that hates
Jews. It is an anti-semitic movement."
Okay, mind you, keep in mind that the
boycott devestment sanctions movement
was the only viable peaceful nonviolent
form of resistance against what Israel
was doing to the Palestinians, which
does divine deserve res armed
resistance. It's a crime so great it
deser it demands force. They are using
force to oppress. So it demands force
against it. But instead, Palestinians
said, "Not only can we not do it because
we don't have the means, but we're
willing to do it in a peaceful manner."
>> Bernie Sanders condemned that
>> and and that inability to peacefully
resist what Israel is doing is what led
to October 7th.
And what happened on October 7th was
used by the Zionists to justify the
genocide that they committed, which
Bernie Sanders supported. As much as he
pretends like he didn't, he ran cover
for Israel for two years and helped them
commit this genocide by amplifying the
mass rape hoax, by amplifying the
beheaded babies hoax, by condemning
Palestinian resistance.
So Bernie Sanders by condemning BDS is
complicit in October 7th and therefore
complicit in the genocide
and he condemned BDS the same way Ben
Gavir would. So this is how they are two
sides of the same coin and this is who
Mdani [clears throat] is holding hands
with and raising his arms with. This is
who he's fundraising money with. This is
who he's campaigning with and giving
speeches with and taking his staffers,
his adviserss, and putting him on his
team, these Jewish liberal Zionists that
don't support an equal right state. And
it's the same with Brad Lander, who is
this other, he was the New York City
comproller or whatever that position is.
This guy shares the same views. So for
them, for Jewish liberal Zionists, the
extent of their support for Palestine is
stop killing them.
>> That's it. When they start,
>> I actually think they're more dangerous.
They're more dangerous than than your
extremists like Beng and Netanyahu
because they they they play a role in
trying to create an Israel that's
acceptable to the world. Netanyahu and
Beng and Smatri and they're like they
drive the occupation down a road where
its natural end, it's its inevitable end
is right before our very eyes because
you you don't commit the crimes that
they're committing except except that
you're going to face repercussions very
very soon. But people like Bernie
Sanders and people like uh Ehud Barak
and so on who you know much more liberal
Zionist who who speak this language of
so-called peace but still promote the
occupation and the apartheite system
they're creating a system where there's
an occupation that people actually are
willing to accept and that is probably
in many ways more dangerous than than
your net and your ben
>> yeah that's an excellent point and that
is something that Malcolm X you know
complained about many years ago. He
talked about the wolf and the fox. He
described, you know, the he he who
respects Republicans because at least
they're in your face about it.
>> Now, I'm not saying you should respect
Ben Gavir, but at least Ben Kavir
reveals exactly who he is. Yeah. Right.
Where the liberal Zionist is the the
fox. He's more sly about it.
>> You know, he'll walk alongside you and
then stab you in the back. And it's, you
know, it's either like genocide quickly
or genocide slowly. That's ultimately
what it is.
>> Yeah. And that's that's shocking for
people to hear because Bernie Sanders is
much more u respectful and welcoming in
his language like when he especially
when he talks about Muslims and and he
standing against Muslim hate and
Islamophobia but ultimately he's still a
Jewish Zionist. And we right now our
role we have to make these people
ashamed to ever call themselves a
Zionist. That is not that that cannot be
an acceptable uh label for people to to
proudly take on moving forward. That
needs to be crushed.
So when when uh Mdani like I said in the
beginning when he associates with them
he works with them he campaigns with
them he appoints them he endorses them
he's saying it's okay to be a Zionist
and that is
>> he's rehabilitating
>> what yet whether he knows it or not
whether he intends to or not that is
what he's doing so we have to call that out
out
>> is there a point to be made can we go a
step further uh there's a problem with
Zionism and that uh people like Mamani
in in the work that he's doing in
allowing the Zionist continue to work.
He's he's he's uh he's rehabilitating
the image of Zionism. He's endorsing
Zionist. He's making it acceptable to be
a Zionist. Can we go a step further and
say that you know what the whole two
let's start off with a two-party system
is corrupt and crooked in and of itself.
Um that to be a Democrat and to be a
Republican is problematic in and of
itself. But pe and people have genuine
grievances against these labels as we
saw in the most recent federal election
in America where there was you know the
numbers that we saw coming out to vote
for Kamala Harris were actually much
lower than we saw in previous elections
I think and so people had lost their
faith in the Democrat they lost their
faith faith in the system in general and
they're now looking to sort of outside
figures like maybe a Trump or maybe a
Sanders who they're looking towards but
someone like Manny comes in and actually
provides them with alternatives where
they can channel their emotions back
into the system rather than challenging
that challenging that back out into
probably more effective ways to organize
and place pressure on the system.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think uh
the only way you can really make use of
these parties that are part of the
two-party system, the Republicans and
the Democrats, is if you bum rush them
with hundreds of of candidates to take
those positions at once. Not one at a
time where like every four years there
are like two decent candidates that were
like barely decent candidates that were
elected when there are hundreds of
positions that need to be replaced. You
have to like bumrush them. It needs to
be a movement to take it over
completely. And that's why you have to
be able to say, "Yeah, absolutely.
primary Hakeim Jeff and anyone else.
We'll take whatever we can get. Let's
gobble up as many seats as we can get.
But that's not the energy they're coming
with. But let's say they did. Let's say
that there was a movement of democratic
socialist and Zoran Mamani was one of
the leaders of that and they took like
more than 50% of the positions in the
Democratic party and ousted a lot of
these people, right?
>> You know what those people would do?
>> They would create a new party.
>> They would say this we that party's
done. we need to stop funding it. We
need to undermine it. And they would
create a new party to become the a new
establishment party and and try to, you
know, reacquire power in that way. They
would give up. So if they if that's what
they would do in that situation, why
haven't we done it already? Why aren't
people doing it already? And say, look,
the Democratic Party's done. We need to
establish a whole new system. But I will
say it is like the American system is
not very easy
uh to create like a whole new party.
It's it's not so simple. So many people
criticize the Green Party and they say
like you don't win races right now.
There are a lot of problems with the
Green Party and I know that because I
was once a Green Party member. Like I've
seen it like on at the state level. It's
like you wouldn't believe how crazy it
is. So, uh there are issues with the
Green Party. But one of the reasons why
it's difficult for like a Green Party or
any other party to get people elected is
because of the conditions that need to
be met just to be put on the ballot.
like it either requires a lot of votes
or a lot of money. And even if you have
both of those things, there are still
other way other ways to disqualify you.
And the people in positions to determine
whether you can even get on the ballot
are often part of the establishment. So,
Democrats or Republicans.
>> And so, it's very very challenging. It's
not like an easy thing to do, but it
should have happened a long time ago,
and it isn't happening. And so, yeah, uh
the political situation is definitely
cooked here in America. He's Yeah.
>> Well, I was just gonna wrap it up by
saying that you're right in pointing out
that Zoran Mani uh essentially helps
>> alleviate pressure uh on the Democratic
Party. [clears throat] Gives people the
sense that hey, maybe the Democratic
Party can't change. Maybe I can vote for
them again. Especially after a genocide
where we just became so disgusted with
them. Maybe Doran Mandani is like
essentially rehabilitating their image
and maybe we can vote for them again and
Muslims will vote for them again because
mo all people not just Muslims are like
incapable of like memory for some reason.
reason.
>> Mhm. Um I is there a deeper point here
then that change of this nature whether
you want to call call it anti-ionist
change proper you know anti-ionist
policies in America whether you want to
call it a change in the way you know of
the American imperialist system of the
imper American empire and the many arms
and limbs that it spreads into the
Muslim world and so on and all over the
world really is there a point to say
that that sort of change isn't possible
within the political system given Given
what you've said about the two parties
and about the amount of pressure that
they put to prevent any third parties or
independent politicians from actually
>> I think change is possible
but historically I think it a change of
that magnitude would require
conditions of that magnitude and that
usually means war.
It means economic collapse.
collapse.
It means some kind of major catastrophe
that would just usher in a new system
for better or for worse. So if the
United States decided to engage in a
massive war and they failed miserably
and it destroyed the economy um or it
lost territory uh or if you know the
economic system collapsed entirely and
China now became the definite number one
and the world economic system realigned
then you would see um a new economic
system. But I think on its own do people
have like the power? Yeah, they do. But
do people actively spend their energy,
you know, and and using that power to
affect that kind of change? No. And the
reason why is because
I mean we have enough money and
entertainment to distract ourselves. So >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> I I think that kind of change is only
possible if a great greater forces
produce it. So not to discourage people.
I think people's
>> Go ahead.
>> Sorry. No, go.
I was going to say not to discourage
people. I mean, people have to believe
in something and they need to try, but I
think they should try in the right way.
And so, you need to
uh you need, you know, if you've ever
seen The Dark Knight, um
um
Batman, specifically the the movie, the
movie with the Joker, played by Heath Ledger.
Ledger. >> Yep.
>> Batman. I forget what what's his
character's name? The butler. The one
who serves him. Anyway,
>> is it
>> the butler's is trying to help him
understand the mindset, the psyche of
the Joker >> and
>> and >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> he's telling him like
some there are just some people that
want to see the world burn. Okay,
>> you have to support the candidate that
just wants to see the system burn.
That's it. Like you need to vote for the
candidate that's going to go in there
and break it up.
>> And it it's not just one candidate. It
has to be a movement of candidates. It
needs to be people going in saying,
"Hey, we're not playing any games. The
moment we get in, we're going to war
with the establishment." Period.
>> People thought that's what Manny was
going to be. People thought that's what
Trump was going to be.
>> Well, I don't know about Mumani, but
definitely that's what people thought
Trump was going to be. Drain the swamp.
That was his his uh
>> what he ran on. That's definitely what
people thought.
>> And and he's standing on stage next to
Hillary Clinton and he's saying, "You
should be in jail." you know, so um it's
so frustrating because we see this
pattern and it's all over the world.
It's not just in America. Um but the
whole world's focused on America's
politics as well naturally given their
their empire and their power. Like we
see this pattern where the cycle of what
we give attention and when we have
energy is just just rotates and orbits
around the election cycle. When there's
elections, we're all fired up. There's
change coming. everyone's following the
news and then the election finishes and
then it dies down. And that to me
reflects that deeper down in our psyche,
we believe that change comes through the
system. Like we're mobilized on the
ground and we're doing all this
canvasing and phone banking and whatever
else. People are collecting donations
and they're at the election polls. Like
that tells you that they believe that
there's change coming through the
system. But then outside of the election
cycle and like what I'm getting from you
from all of this is that like we're
placing too much faith in people like
Madani that he's not going to come in
and make any serious change and if
anything the change that he's making is
actually harmful towards our cause.
>> Yeah, I I think you hit it on the head.
Now for people wondering, well then what
should I do? I think you should keep
doing what you've been doing. Yeah, I I
think people should keep doing what
they've been doing. So raising awareness
and the narrative does matter. Like if
the narrative didn't matter, I know
people are like, "Oh, we've been, you
know, talking about this and
Palestinians are still dying in Gaza."
And that's true. But if the narrative
didn't matter, the Zionists would not
have spent so much money buying Tik Tok,
buying CBS, and now they're trying to
buy like ABC News and and Disney and and
all these they're just trying to buy as
much and many media platforms as they
possibly can.
>> So, the narrative still matters. You
need to keep talking.
>> Uh you need to keep giving money to
Palestinian organizations. You need to
keep giving money to supporting
Palestinians in Gaza and you need to
keep protesting and you need to when it
comes to your engagement with the
system, you need to criticize Mumani
like he is the enemy. You you have to
you you have to keep him on his toes and
turn all that praise and love you've
given him into very quickly into into
almost hate to show him to make him feel
that if you don't do
>> the best that you can possibly do we
will withdraw support from you and you
will fail. So stop trying to stop trying
to please Obama please us.
>> Can I ask you touch on an example? I saw
I saw your comment on Twitter about
Muhammad Alur Palestinian journalist who
asked a question to Mani and you
commented this exact point. Can you
elaborate on that? Just say it's an
example for us to reflect on your point
about putting pressure on these politicians.
politicians.
>> Yeah, I think wherever he goes, wherever
he goes, do not welcome this person like
they are a celebrity. Wherever he goes,
pick up the microphone and push him. Ask
him a question. And when he he gives you
his uh you know pandering political
mumbo jumbo, which is what every
politician does, push him. Like the
other day, Medi Hassan sat next to him
and Medi Hassan asked him good
questions, but he did not push him after
the fact. In fact, in the middle of one
of his questions when he pushed him on
Jeff, Mamani interrupted it to show him
a picture of his dad on his phone and
then just ignored the rest of the
question and moved on from it. Mandy
Hassan should be like, "No, no, no.
You're not running from this one. You
need to explain yourself. That's how it
has knows how to push. He knows how to
push people that he's interviewing.
>> Yeah. I mean, if you Oh my god. If he
saw the way when he interviewed Jill
Stein. I mean, he treat he treated Jill
Stein like she was the Israeli ambassador.
ambassador. >> So,
>> So,
>> and that tells you a lot about politics.
So, that's a separate that's a separate
discussion anyway.
>> It's a it's a separate discussion.
Absolutely. But, uh, yeah, that's what
that's the kind of energy that's needed.
That's what needs to be done. And there
can be progress on that. Like Mahi
Hassan and Bassim Ysef went to Arabcon
in Detroit and they thought it was just
going to be run-of-the-mill. Everyone
was going to just want to take pictures
with them. Uh but then while they were
on stage, somebody stood up and pushed
them on resistance like, "Hey, you
condemned armed resistance. Why?"
>> And they gave an answer and he said,
"No, okay, why? Why? Why?" eventually
got to the point where Medi Hassf
basically walked back what they were
saying without you know
>> using certain language but that's what
they did wherever they go that needs to happen
happen
>> and that needs to happen to people like
Zoran Mani as well wherever they go
>> absolutely I think there's one point
that I want to emphasize as well is that
you know we often think that Mani is the
source of change that validates what
we're doing but I think the reality is
actually the opposite that he only comes
into power because of all the things
that you've just described that we do on
the ground. Those things, the protest,
the the the the raising awareness, the social media, all of these things are
social media, all of these things are actually what have paved the pathway for
actually what have paved the pathway for somebody like Mi to come in and take
somebody like Mi to come in and take power. And I I I think maybe there's a
power. And I I I think maybe there's a point that there's a benefit in him
point that there's a benefit in him coming to power that we see that the
coming to power that we see that the Zionists are actually fuming over him
Zionists are actually fuming over him being in that position. So that tells
being in that position. So that tells you that it's it's a representation of
you that it's it's a representation of something. They don't care about mammi
something. They don't care about mammi maybe given all the things that you've
maybe given all the things that you've said but they care about what it
said but they care about what it represents which is that people broadly
represents which is that people broadly speaking are anti-ionist and that
speaking are anti-ionist and that they've paved the way for a mamani to
they've paved the way for a mamani to come to power. So going to your point I
come to power. So going to your point I I I think what I draw from that is that
I I think what I draw from that is that our movement on the ground is what makes
our movement on the ground is what makes the change that then leads to the
the change that then leads to the changes in the elections not the other
changes in the elections not the other way around.
way around. >> Correct. And we have to not be satisfied
>> Correct. And we have to not be satisfied with what appears because we're so far
with what appears because we're so far behind. So you're right.
behind. So you're right. >> We did pave the way everyone around the
>> We did pave the way everyone around the world raising awareness and and having
world raising awareness and and having this energy.
this energy. >> You the people produced the pathway for
>> You the people produced the pathway for someone like Zon Mandani. But you cannot
someone like Zon Mandani. But you cannot be satisfied with that outcome
be satisfied with that outcome especially when Zon Mandani is already
especially when Zon Mandani is already like actively act moving against some of
like actively act moving against some of the things that you wanted and some of
the things that you wanted and some of the things that we need. So you can't be
the things that we need. So you can't be satisfied with that. And I think people
satisfied with that. And I think people also they need to have a much more
also they need to have a much more critical and distrusting eye. You you
critical and distrusting eye. You you need to look at all these people as
need to look at all these people as snake oil salesmen, as grifters, as
snake oil salesmen, as grifters, as narcissists. You need to view them as
narcissists. You need to view them as >> like why? Wait, why do you want to be in
>> like why? Wait, why do you want to be in power?
power? Power corrupts. Why? Why? Why do you
Power corrupts. Why? Why? Why do you want to be in power? What are you going
want to be in power? What are you going to do with that power? Why are you
to do with that power? Why are you asking me to give you money? What are
asking me to give you money? What are you gonna do? What have you done? What
you gonna do? What have you done? What have you said? Who are you collaborating
have you said? Who are you collaborating with? like you need to interrogate them
with? like you need to interrogate them like they are uh the enemy almost and
like they are uh the enemy almost and when you scrutinize them in that regard
when you scrutinize them in that regard you'll get more out of them and I think
you'll get more out of them and I think that's uh the kind of energy that's
that's uh the kind of energy that's needed.
needed. >> Absolutely. Ahmed I think it's been a
>> Absolutely. Ahmed I think it's been a very detailed conversation on Zoran and
very detailed conversation on Zoran and what he presents and and where we need
what he presents and and where we need to go from here. Are there any other
to go from here. Are there any other comments that you had to make about
comments that you had to make about about this topic? Anything that maybe we
about this topic? Anything that maybe we haven't touched on that you feel
haven't touched on that you feel passionate about?
I think people need to walk away with this. Like you said, you know, you can't
this. Like you said, you know, you can't put all your hope in a candidate like
put all your hope in a candidate like Zoran Modani. You need to always
Zoran Modani. You need to always remember what happened in Kaza. Never
remember what happened in Kaza. Never ever forget it. Ever. And right now the
ever forget it. Ever. And right now the Zionists are trying to make you forget
Zionists are trying to make you forget it. If you look on X, X was a place
it. If you look on X, X was a place where you could see dead babies. And
where you could see dead babies. And it's not that we want to see it, but we
it's not that we want to see it, but we needed to see it. They are actively
needed to see it. They are actively scrubbing the internet and they're
scrubbing the internet and they're training chat GPT to uh wipe any memory
training chat GPT to uh wipe any memory of this. Their plan for the next
of this. Their plan for the next generation is to like remove any memory
generation is to like remove any memory of this. So like a hundred years from
of this. So like a hundred years from now, people look back in their
now, people look back in their technofudal age and they say, "Did that
technofudal age and they say, "Did that even happen?" And there will be no
even happen?" And there will be no evidence of it. So they are actively
evidence of it. So they are actively trying to delete what they've done. It's
trying to delete what they've done. It's up to us to make sure the world never
up to us to make sure the world never forgets and it's up to us to make sure
forgets and it's up to us to make sure that Zionism is defeated. And that can't
that Zionism is defeated. And that can't happen if we are celebrating the kinds
happen if we are celebrating the kinds of people that work with them. We have
of people that work with them. We have to understand our goal is to remove
to understand our goal is to remove Zionism as an acceptable ideology,
Zionism as an acceptable ideology, whether it's a liberal Zionism or a
whether it's a liberal Zionism or a Bengavir level of Zionism from our
Bengavir level of Zionism from our society. We need to do we need to treat
society. We need to do we need to treat that like our absolute goal and focus on
that like our absolute goal and focus on it and move towards it.
it and move towards it. >> Absolutely, Ahmed. It's been an honor. I
>> Absolutely, Ahmed. It's been an honor. I think there's a lot there's a lot to
think there's a lot there's a lot to take back from this, a lot for us to
take back from this, a lot for us to reflect on, a lot to inform us on the
reflect on, a lot to inform us on the path forward. Um, for those that are
path forward. Um, for those that are watching, if you haven't come across
watching, if you haven't come across Ahmed Wuk, you can check him out on on
Ahmed Wuk, you can check him out on on X, on Instagram, on YouTube, Propaganda
X, on Instagram, on YouTube, Propaganda and Co., are you on any other platforms?
and Co., are you on any other platforms? Is that what they search? Propaganda and
Is that what they search? Propaganda and Co, and they'll come across you.
Co, and they'll come across you. >> Yeah, Propaganda and Co., you'll find
>> Yeah, Propaganda and Co., you'll find me. So, thanks for having me. It's a
me. So, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure and uh, keep up the great work.
pleasure and uh, keep up the great work. >> And I'm sure I'm sure we'll have you
>> And I'm sure I'm sure we'll have you back on in the future. There's a lot to
back on in the future. There's a lot to discuss, as I said at the start. And for
discuss, as I said at the start. And for those who are probably joining South
those who are probably joining South Palestine for the first time, make sure
Palestine for the first time, make sure you um check us out on all of our
you um check us out on all of our socials. If you're on our YouTube
socials. If you're on our YouTube channel, make sure you like, you
channel, make sure you like, you subscribe, you comment cuz all of that
subscribe, you comment cuz all of that just helps us to break the shadow band.
just helps us to break the shadow band. It's being used to shut down everyone's
It's being used to shut down everyone's material everywhere. So, it means a lot
material everywhere. So, it means a lot to us. So, please do uh do do keep
to us. So, please do uh do do keep following and look forward to seeing
following and look forward to seeing again for joining us.
again for joining us. Thank you, brother. I appreciate it.
Thank you, brother. I appreciate it. Thank you.
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