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Narcissistic vs Healthy Relationships with Marcela From Beyond The Bruise

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Today my guest is Marcella. She is

Beyond the Bruise on Instagram and Tik

Tok and she's also a domestic violence

survivor. And in today's discussion, we

went over some of the rationalizations

people make about the abusive person's

behavior, how a healthy relationship

feels versus an abusive relationship,

and a very important question to ask

yourself if you're with someone that is

abusive. And we also went over a whole

lot more. That being said, I hope you

enjoy today's episode as much as I did.

Marcella, how are you today, miss? I'm

doing great, Jared. So glad we can

connect. Ah, me too. And you've been

blowing up on social media recently,

Instagram, Tik Tok. How on earth did you

get here to where you are now?

All right. Well, when a mom and a dad

love each other, they That's like my

joke. That's my joke. People like, "How

did you get here?" Well, um, but

surprisingly, I only started this

platform maybe like seven months ago,

and I had been in a very bad

relationship, as you guys know from my

videos that I put out. And that lasted

about 5 years. And after that, I spent a

little time going through therapy,

learning what was going on with me,

really like digging into the why behind

it, um, which I felt I needed to

validate my experience. And then I got

into another relationship. And after

that ended, I kind of felt like I had

this freedom and a lot of knowledge

about where or how I got to where I am

right now. How I got to this space that

I feel a lot more confident in myself

that I feel like I'm able to wash away

or explain any sort of like negative

thoughts that I have. Um, and then I

just wanted to start sharing my story.

Um cuz I started noticing that a lot of

people were dealing with what I had

dealt with and there really wasn't a

playbook around it. I still think there

isn't a playbook around it of course,

but I wanted to share how I got through

it. And I think I've always loved

writing and I've always loved reading.

And I think not that I have a way with

words, but I think I was always able to

um to speak about what I was going

through in a way that maybe made sense

to other people. And I was like, okay,

if I can start sharing my story, if I

can start talking about these topics and

maybe in a way that's not as blunt and

not as aggressive. Um because I know

that works for some people, but I kind

of have like a a big sister tone. I want

people to feel heard, understood, and

not shamed, and not like they're doing

something wrong, because of course it's

okay to feel like the victim, but I

think it's also important to know that

there are steps that you can take to get

yourself out of this, too. Um, so long-

winded way of saying that I just wanted

to share my story, and I think people

started resonating with that, and you

know, it's it's a beautiful community,

and I'm very grateful for it. Well,

we're glad to have you here in the

community. And I think one of the things

you have going for you is you have that

conversational tone where it's just like

you're talking to somebody over coffee

or something and it's very disarming and

I think it makes people feel comfortable

and I think that's definitely one of

your assets that you have going for you.

Thank you. That's so kind. That's

definitely what I wanted to do. So, I

appreciate you picking up on that. And I

think some people really react well to

being told directly and bluntly like,

"Hey, this is what you need to do." I am

not that kind of person. So, I think the

videos that I make, it's like I'm almost

talking to myself or like a younger

version of myself. Like, little girl,

like everything's going to be okay. This

is why it happened and this is what you

can do to get out of it. So, it's it's

very much like me speaking to a younger

version of myself and what would I have

wanted to hear? What would have moved

the needle for me back then? What would

have given me that aha moment? And I

think for some people it's having that

that big sister best friend energy and

for other people it's being told that

you know what the [ __ ] are you doing?

Oh, am I allowed to swear? Um freely. Um

but yeah, I think a lot of different

voices are necessary, right? like it.

It's not one type of person, one type of

influencer or content creator that's

going to own the space. I really think

that it's necessary to have a lot of

different people talking about subjects

in different ways because what works for

me might not work for you, right? And my

my style is probably the direct opposite

of your style. Like when I'm speaking,

you're like the ying to my yang, I would

say. But and the other thing about

advice, they say all advice is really

people just talking to younger versions

of themselves. And I would say, yeah,

that's pretty accurate. That that's

exactly what it is. I mean, because I

can only speak from my experience,

right? So, it makes sense that a lot of

what I'm saying relates back to what I

wish I could have told myself back in

the day. So, yeah, it's it's it's just

amazing how many people have gone

through this, you know? It's it's it's

very sad, but at the same time, it's

empowering and it's validating to know

that there's a lot of people that have

been through this and they've made it to

the other side. So, it's, you know, as

as hard as it feels when you're in the

moment, there is a light at the end of

the tunnel and there are people that

have made it there. And the more people

that start sharing their story, the

quicker we can help people get to that

light at the end of the tunnel. I think

a unique wrinkle in your story too is

you had another relationship after your

abusive relationship and that one wasn't

abusive per se, but how did that kind of

color your perspective about the initial relationship?

relationship?

I always say that the relationship that

happened after my abusive relationship

was exactly what I needed at that time.

um that that guy that I dated was very

kind, very patient, very peaceful. You

know, I felt safe. I felt emotionally

safe. I felt physically safe. And that

was something that I did not have in my

first relationship at all. It was

literally like the pendulum swung the

exact opposite way. Um and it was

exactly what I needed. It it made it

healed me in so many ways. And I think

um for me, I was so vigilant at the

beginning of that relationship trying to

identify like huge glaring red flags.

And I'm so thankful that he didn't prove

any of my fears to be a reality. Um we

ended up breaking up for other reasons,

and I'm happy to get into that, too. But

I think it's it's really important to

shed light that there can be

relationships after abusive, toxic,

manipulative relationships that work out

or don't work out. And regardless of if

they don't work out, I learned so much

about myself in that relationship. I

think part of what I learned too is that

you cannot change people. As much as you

love each other, as much as you want

things to work, at the end of the day,

if your natures don't match, if you

don't want the same things, if you don't

want them at the same

time, you could try working on it. You

could try going to couples therapy,

you're most likely not going to be able

to change the nature of that person. And

why would you, right? Like if you want

some if somebody needs to change to be

the version of you that you want them to

be that kind of starts like resentment

right or breeds some sort of resentment

towards the end of the relationship. So

the reason why my most previous

relationship ended is because we

honestly wanted different things. And I

think after a couple years in the

relationship, you start realizing, okay,

maybe maybe what you wanted, you don't

actually want because you have those

conversations at the beginning of any

relationship. Okay, do you want to have

kids? What age do you want to do that?

And I think we all have the best

intentions. But I think sometimes when

it when push comes to shove and when the

time comes to actually, you know, put

those plans into motion, some people

actually aren't ready for that. And

that's okay. Um, and that's kind of why

that last relationship ended for me is I

felt like I was a little bit more ready

for something and he wasn't. And I tried

to change that for a while. And at the

end of that, we both decided, hey,

instead of trying to make this work and

trying to make two corner puzzle piece

pieces fit together that are never going

to fit together. um let's you know go

our ways do end this amicably so that we

can you know not resent each other and

not hate each other and we still have a

ton of respect for each other um really

great guy and I know that whoever he

ends up with is going to be very very

happy but there's a level of maturity in

that relationship that I gained that I

did not know was possible

interesting and I think it's important

for people to hear what you just said

because there's some people that think

never again, never again will I get into

a relationship. I'm done. All guys or

all women are terrible. And I think it's

also important to say that that wasn't a

toxic relationship. It wasn't an abusive

or narcissistic relationship. It was

simply not compatible. And not every

breakup is because of, oh, it was just

super toxic. No, not always. Not

sometimes it's just not compatible. And

I think that's an important thing to

emphasize too. Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. And I think sometimes it's

even harder that way because if somebody

was abusive to you, if somebody cheated

on you, you have a set instance where

you can point to and say, "This is where

they wronged me. I'm not the problem.

They're the problem." And I think for me

it was really hard at the beginning of

that breakup to understand that, you

know, I had an I had a bit of an ego

crisis where I was like, "Oh my gosh,

like they obviously just didn't want to

be with me, you know, like if they

wanted to get married and have kids, it

they would have, you know, picked me and

they didn't." So it was I had to I

struggled with that a little bit that

you know feeling like I might have been

the problem but really at the end of the

day it's it just goes comes down to

compatibility and especially when

somebody isn't an awful person isn't a

toxic [ __ ] You're like I don't have

anything to point to to make you the

problem. But you know there doesn't need

to be a problem in a relationship. There

doesn't need to be the bad guy or the

good guy. Just two people that didn't

fit together. Yeah. I think that's very

important for people to remember. And I

think another interesting thing I think

people would want to hear about is how

did it feel? Like what were the

differences in feeling between the

abusive relationship and then the

relationship that was healthy but just

not compatible? What were the feelings

that you experienced in the abusive

relationship that you didn't in the next

one? Yeah, that's such a great question.

I think in the abusive relationship, I I

never felt at peace or like I could be

myself. I always felt like I had to

dress a certain way, um, listen to

certain kind of music, and I felt like I

was almost stifling a part of myself.

Like my friends and family always said,

like, you're so much brighter now that

you're out of that relationship. I can

see I can see like your soul again. I

can see those little things that make

you quirky. because I just wanted to be

like the cool, sexy girlfriend and not

like the quirky, clumsy me that I really

am. And I I I really am the opposite of

cool and sexy. You know what I mean?

That's not sell yourself short. Maybe

one day, but it's not my brand right

now. Um, but I was like, "Okay, I just

have to be like perfect essentially for

him because if I mess up, he's he's

gonna punish me for it." So, there was

always that fear in the back of my head

that I was going to be punished for

saying the wrong thing and just so much

hot and coldness. But with with this

guy, the consistency, like consistency

is so sexy. That to me is like the most

incredible thing that somebody can

provide in a relationship is just day in

and day out showing you the same kind of

love regardless of, you know, if you

were snappy towards them or if you know

you're not wearing something that they

like, heaven forbid. But like the the

freedom was there to just be myself

and, you know, be nerdy and explore

parts of me that maybe other people

wouldn't enjoy. But it it really was

like a sense of peace that I felt that I

didn't feel in a toxic relationship. And

trying to think of other other things,

too. But I think it was a lot of

laughter and a lot of joy, too. And just

waking up knowing that like I was going

to get a consistent version of that

person. And that's that kind of peace is

exactly exactly what I needed. Like it

completely reset my nervous system. I

was like, "Oh, wow." like I don't have

to be in fight or flight all the time.

Consistency. Consistency is key. Do you

believe in soulmates?

That is such a good question. Hard-hitting.

Hard-hitting.

Um I I don't think that there's one

specific soulmate. I do think that there

are like I would say that my best friend

is my soulmate. Um she's been with me

through everything. I couldn't see my

life without her. But in terms of like romantic

romantic

soulmates, I think

that Wow, this is such a hard question.

You really stumped me at this. I don't

think that there's one soulmate. No, I

think if there's two people that love

each other, that connect with each

other, that, you know, want to build a

life with each other, and they work at

it, that that to me is the definition of

a soulmate. Because I don't think that I

don't think that you can go into a

relationship and not put in the work and

just assume that whatever soul ties you

have are going to keep you together. I

really think that relationships and love

are efforts, right? Like you have to

actively choose it every single day. And

who knows, maybe if that person is your

soulmate, it's a lot easier for you to

actively choose it. But I think

that all in all, there's there's not one

soulmate for everybody. But I do think

that your soulmate is somebody that puts

in the effort to to be there. I hope

that answers the question. Yeah, it

does. And what you were saying before

reminds me of one of my favorite

definitions of a soulmate. And what you

just said also, I think it's true that

there's many people you can have a great

connection with. I don't think there's

just one, but my favorite definition of

a soulmate is from six feet under. And

they said it's the So maybe you know

what I'm about to say. Do you? I I don't

think so. So, there is a woman a woman

rabbi I think that told Nate because

Nate asked her, "Oh, do you believe in

soulmates?" And she said, "Well, a

soulmate to me is the person that helps

you to become the most you you can be

and helps you to grow the most as a

person while keeping in mind not all

growth is comfortable." And I said,

"Yeah, if I were to believe in a

soulmate, that's what I would believe."

And the key word there was helping you

to become the most you you can be, not

the one that's you feel like you need to

wear a mask or pretend to be someone

you're not to be around. That would be

the red flag to me. I remember that

quote now and I completely agree with

you. It's like if you have to perform to

be around that person, they're more than

likely not the right person for you,

right? Because it should it should be

effortless in a way the way that you

behave in the relationship. Of course

there is effort but if it's if you have

to you know every day put on that mask

of who they want you to be probably not

the right relationship for you. Now why

do people put on that mask you think?

Because I think that's an important part

to go over too. Why do they why do they

do it? I it's such a good question. I

think a lot of the times it's it's hard

to be vulnerable and it's hard to show

people sides that you're not exactly

ready to show for whatever reason that

might be. And I think sometimes it's a

lot easier to just be that perfect

version of yourself or to cosplay what

you think that they want. And it also

helps you avoid a lot of difficult

conversations. So, I think if you're

somebody who's not ready to have those

hard conversations or you're not at the

point yet where you are aware of all

these pieces of you, it's just easier

and it also it also stops you from

heartbreak. And I think it's almost a

survival technique, right? It's if you

open up to this person, if you become

vulnerable, if you don't have a mask on,

that means that there's all these

vulnerabilities that they could

essentially use against you in the

future. And that's only if you're with

somebody who's, you know, toxic or

manipulative. But I think it's a

survival tactic of, you know, making

sure that all your deepest, darkest

secrets aren't out there for the world

to see.

All right. And in this relationship with

him, how long did it take for there to

start being a devaluing phase? Because

was there a love bombing in the

beginning? Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

It was as lovebombing as it gets. It was

probably for the

first four or five months. And from what

I've heard, that's typically how long it

takes for them to start like having that

mask slip. It's within like three to six

months. So, yeah, the love bombing was

really intense. Um, you know, I've never

never met anybody like you telling me I

love you within the first couple weeks

of us dating. And it feels good, right?

Like it feels really good to be wanted

like that from somebody. Especially I

grew up like loving romantic comedies

and Disney movies and just like wanting

to having this idea of a relationship

that was like if somebody isn't head

over heels obsessed with you, then they

probably don't like you, right? And

that's what this past relationship has

also taught me is that love can be

comfortable and consistent without being

ridiculously intense and chaotic. And I

would much rather something

that's on the boring side almost than

something that

like wrecks my nervous system. And I

think you've made a video about that too

to not confuse intensity with love.

Exactly. Exactly. Because that's what

that's exactly what we think like what

the media shows us, what we have this

idea of love to be. So when somebody

starts mimicking that, we don't

necessarily think, oh, like maybe this

isn't genuine, we want to take things at

face value. So that's something that I

have to always remind myself too is that

just because something's intense doesn't

mean that it's good for you and it

doesn't mean that it's a genuine

connection, right? And I think those

romcoms in Disney, they're really poison

in a way. I think especially for kids

that are growing up on that because

ultimately the message of a lot of them

is uh you find a partner and you fall in

love and then happily ever after. Yeah.

But that's in the real world the falling

in love is just that' be the first five

minutes of the movie and then after is

really the work. Then it's okay. How do

you keep this thing together? What's

going on here? But they don't they skip

all that part and they just get you to

no fall in love. the end and Disney

movies like that, romcoms, I just don't

think it serves people. I don't think it

really helps them. I don't think so,

too. And I'm like thinking like, you

know, when I have kids one day, am I

going to let them watch Disney movies?

Like, is this going to be good for kids

to digest? Because I mean, having a mom

like me, I'm always going to be, you

know, throwing therapy talk at them.

And, you know, I'm sure they'll get

their their fix of um their fix of the

real world. But it does make me think

like how how warped our idea of love is

sometimes. And how when we do maybe find

a nice guy, we're like, "Oh, he's too

nice and he's boring and I want somebody

who fawns over me and makes me feel like

I'm on top of the world all the time."

But the thing about being on top of a

pedestal is you can only be on top of

there for so long, right? I think it

would actually be a good opportunity if

you have kids one day, you watch a

Disney movie, and then you go over it.

and so what do you think about that? And

it gives you an opportunity to talk

about that very thing if that's the

message they got from it. Like, oh,

okay, I can see where you would want

this, but how about just know that's not

real life. Real life is you get to that

end point and that's really just the

beginning and there's more stuff going

on from there. That's such a good point

because you can't shield them from

everything that might be, you know,

toxic for their little brains, but you

what you can do is train them to be like

critical of those things, right? and to

ask questions because I think a lot of

us just take things with face value.

Like even with the news, right? Like

we're not really trained to go deeper

into what they're telling us and to find

the the root truth of everything. Not to

get political or whatever. But I think a

lot of times we don't get too we don't

get critical of what's being fed to us.

And everything that's being fed to us

has some sort of message. So either we

we become prey to it or we we learn from

it and we we figure out what makes the

or what truth pertains to

us. No, I absolutely agree with that. I

think it's important to recognize okay

is this person who's telling me this

message. Do they have my best interest

in mind? Why why are they or even that

goes for our own thoughts too? Thoughts

that we have. It's okay. Why do I think

this? How did I get here? And did that

person have my best interest in mind?

Just some good questions to ask

yourself. Oh, yeah. I love thinking

about thinking. It's my favorite thing.

I'm the biggest overinker. There you go.

It's also like reminding yourself that

just because you have a thought doesn't

mean that you have to give a ton of

weight to it, too. Like I have so many

thoughts in my head that I just need to

like acknowledge that they're there and

then kind of

just wash them away. because if if we're

putting a ton of um credence and value

on every single thought that we have,

we're going to spend all day

overthinking. So, I think it's it's

important to acknowledge that you are

having thoughts, but not every thought

deserves equal value. That's a great

point to remember. And back to your

abusive relationship to kind of circle

that in with that. when you were there,

what kinds of things were you telling

yourself to maybe rationalize his

behavior or to stick around? What was

going through your head at the time?

Yeah, there there was a lot. It's um one

of them being they're not always like

this. You know, there there are good

moments and at the beginning the bad

moments are, you know, maybe 5% 10% of

the time. Then I think as you keep going

through the cycle, it unfortunately gets

more and more fre frequent and more

percentage of the time because I think

the more that you allow certain

behaviors to go to go on and I'm not

saying allow in in a way that you're,

you know, welcoming the behavior, but

instead of taking yourself out of the

situation or seeing it for what it is,

the longer that it goes

on, the more intense it gets and the the

harder it is to pull yourself out of it,

I think. So that was one of the one of

the justifications I kept making or

rationalizations is that they're not

always like this. And I'm basing the

relationship at that point on their

potential and not their patterns. And

that's what I try to tell people is pay

attention to the patterns because if

something is happening time and time and

time again, it's not a mistake. And the

more that we allow it to go on, the more

that we're essentially telling them this

is okay,

right? And I think that's important for

people to know too because not that it's

your fault, but just to get people to

realize if they're thinking the same

things about their current partner,

okay, this might be a problem. And I

guess the next question is, what were

you thinking that way in regards to what

behavior of his? Oh, he's not always

like what what was he doing? Oh my gosh,

so many things. I mean, I think um one

thing that I would

always let slide is like the name

calling. Um so I would be called like

the worst names, [ __ ] The C word,

which I don't even like saying that

word. I feel like it just cuts through

the air. You can say it if you want, but

I just I don't like saying that word. Um

and that was something that I was just

like, oh, you know, it's he had a really

bad childhood. he had been through a lot

and maybe he heard his, you know, dad

say that to his mom and that's just

something that he says, you know, when

he's upset and he doesn't know how to

love, but I I see I see his heart and um

I feel like I was letting his past

excuse how he was treating me in the

present and almost justifying it, saying

that all relationships take work and

that also confuses emotional labor with

emotional abuse. Um, so that was another

one that I would constantly say is like,

"Oh, no. Relationships take work. You

know, I'm never going to find somebody

who's perfect, so maybe I'll just stick

this one out." Because, you know, he is

nice to me sometimes and he brings me

flowers and chocolates when he messes

up. And I mean, the mess ups were pretty

big. you know, it was getting choked

and, you know, the all of

the what you think of when you think of

domestic violence. I don't love to get

into like the nitty-gritty of it because

I feel like I don't know if it

necessarily matters to people to hear

exactly what I went through.

Um, but I think for some people they

need to hear it to to kind of validate

their own experience and for others it

could be very triggering to hear. But I

will say that, you know, there was um

there was choking, there was slapping,

there was name calling, there was, you

know, things that weren't necessarily

physical, but that felt very close to

it, like not letting me leave the room.

Um backing me into a corner.

Um, and sometimes I would I would

gaslight myself into thinking that I

deserved it, you know, and that, you

know, maybe had I been a little bit

nicer or maybe if I just listened to

him, I wouldn't have gotten this sort of

treatment, you know, like I internalized

their gaslighting as truth and just

really ignoring the emotional whiplash

of it all. Yeah. I mean, and that's one

of the big indicators of being in a

trauma bond is when you start talking

that way about yourself. And what you

were doing is dearing. I'm not sure if

you've heard that term, but defend,

excuse, explain, rationalize. If someone

does that, that's a warning sign. And I

think the benefit of actually going into

the bad behaviors they were doing is

there are people who truly don't see it.

They don't recognize it as, "Okay, he

beat me up, but he still loves me." Or

they say something along those lines,

and they really don't get it. Like, they

don't truly accept how bad it was. And

to me, that's one of the big things I

see people struggle with, right? Just

accepting, yeah, this person's abusive,

and this person, no matter what you do,

they're not going to collaborate.

They're not going to problem solve.

They're not going to try to understand

you. If anything, it's going to be the opposite.

opposite.

That's that's exactly it. And it's it's

a very confusing situation to be in

because they don't just start out the

gate, you know, with a level 10, you

know, very glaring example of physical

abuse. It always starts small. And it it

brings us to that that um frog in the

boiling water analogy where of course if

you throw a a frog into a pot of hot

water, they're going to jump right out.

But if you put them into a a pot of cold

water and you slowly turn up the heat,

they're not going to jump out until the

very possible last second until they

finally realize what's going on. It's a

very slow buildup. And by the time you

realize what's going on, you're you're

in very deep. And that is that is the

system. It is literally designed to keep

you to keep you gasping for error

essentially, right? And that's the the

system of coercive control is really

what that is. And I think it's also

important to clarify the difference

between playful flirting and roasting,

which might include some name calling

occasionally, versus the bad vibe

version of name calling, the serious

version of it. I think some people I'm

sure if you ask an abusive person they

might try to say that oh I just teasing

or flirting or something but no the

energy won't lie about that kind of

thing. It's going to feel much

different. Oh absolutely. And that's why

I always say you have to trust your gut.

It's it's very hard to do, especially

when you've you're in a situation where

you're kind

of groomed to go against your gut and

taught that your gut doesn't really

matter because you know if you say

something they'll say, "Well, that

didn't happen or they rewrite reality or

whatever it is." But like I think our

gut is always or almost always right and

if something is screaming at you,

there's probably a reason behind it. So

I think that confusion that we feel in

these kinds of relationships and always

wondering where we stand that's our gut

streaming at us to say okay like take a

closer look at this because your

confusion isn't unfounded. There is

there is a route to it and there is a

reason why you're feeling like that.

Right? And I think that's the toughest

part when someone's in a trauma bond in

an abusive relationship. They don't

trust their gut anymore because the

abusive person is able to gaslight them

into not trusting their gut and they

think, "Oh, I must be wrong." And

they'll start doing the rationalizations

that you said you did. And it's a a

circular a very bad process that just

keeps on getting worse and worse. It's

it compounds. But I call it

unsubscribing. You got to unsubscribe

from that distorted version of reality.

I I love that. And I think it's like

think about the version of yourself that

you were before you came into this

relationship. Would they have accepted

what you're going through right now? Um

and then I also ask, you know, if your

mom, if your best friend, if your

sister, brother was in this situation,

what would you tell them to do? And why

aren't you taking your own advice? And

why do you think that you're too strong

or you're too insert adjective here to

handle it and they aren't? So, it's like

that's that's why it's so important to

take a step back in these kind of

things. And if you are noticing that

confusion, just

like try to detach emotionally a little

bit because the emotions and the

justifications is what keeps us so far

in it,

right? And that's the that's a huge

thing there with that too is just

getting through to that point. And the

other thing you were talking about me

yesterday, where does radical acceptance

come into play with this? Oh my gosh, I

I love radical ac acceptance and I'm

glad you brought it up because I think

it's I think it's a term that gets

misunderstood all the time. And it's not

the same as approval, right? It's not

forgiveness. It's not just being the

bigger person. It's definitely not the

spiritual bypassing where you float

above the pain and you say, "Oh, this is

just who they are and I have compassion

for it." No, not at all. I think radical

acceptance is that like mental reset

button that you hit when your nervous

system is stuck in a loop, when you're

trying to fix them, when you're trying

to justify them. And it's the moment

that you say to yourself, "I don't have

to like this, but I do have to stop

denying it. This is what's happening.

This is how they're treating me. This

this is what I'm in." Because when

you're in a trauma bond like that, your

brain is constantly looking for relief

through illusion. That's what I call it.

And you're zooming in on those good

moments. You're twisting their backstory

into a reason for the behavior and

you're finding meaning in the

mistreatment. And that's what we do to

survive. And I get that. We narrate our

pain so it feels less chaotic. We'll

tell ourselves stories like those like

those rationalizations. He's like this

because of his trauma or she doesn't

mean it. She's just scared of losing me.

Um or they love me. They just don't know

how to show it. That to me is not

radical acceptance. That is like

emotional rationalization. And that's

staying in something harmful. while you

try to frame it into something that it's

not. And what I think rational or

radical acceptance is is a conscious

decision to stop spinning the story.

Stop putting a PR spin on it. Um, and

it's not cold. It's not disconnected. I

think it's a very honest and present

thing that you can do because what

you're essentially doing is stepping

back like you're actually p pulling your

energy back from the situation and

saying let me look at this for what it

is not what I want it to be not what I

wish it could become not who they are

when things are good but what is

actually happening right now and that's

radical acceptance um it's not saying

this is okay it's just saying this is

and I think you get two very powerful

things once you start doing that. One,

you get clarity, like real clarity, the

kind that's very impossible to access

when you're still bargaining,

rationalizing, hoping that they'll

change because when you stop editing the

story, you start seeing the truth and

not the version that you've been trying

to emotionally manage. Um, and then I

think the other thing it does, it

creates distance. Not physically at

first, but psychologically, mentally.

You stop participating in the emotional

chaos. you stop reacting and you start

observing and that starts weakening that

trauma bond because when you stop

responding to the highs and lows and

instead you go this is a pattern and I

see it now that's like the definition to

me of getting your power back and that's

why I think radical acceptance is like

the precursor to emotional detachment

and obvious I think the precursor to

leaving the relationship too is you

can't detach if you're still hoping you

can't ray rock if you're still

emotionally invested in their potential.

So radical acceptance gives you this

neutrality and it puts you in the

observer seat and it lets you say, you

know, this is worse than I thought or

this is not going to change. So I think

you're in something right now where your

mind feels so tangled, your heart feels

so confused. Start there, not with a big

decision, not with a breakup, but just

with saying this is what it is, right?

And I think the concept you just talked

about previously that ties in with

radical acceptance because if you could

say well to treat yourself the way you

would someone you really cared about and

say if the same thing was happening to

your best friend or your sister, what

would you say to them in that situation?

How would you label their behavior if it

was happening to them? And I think that

could really help with radical

acceptance for people. 100%. I I

completely agree with that. It's like

when you're so deep into a situation

like you're saying, it's so hard to see

it for what it is. But when you step out

of it, that's why people like look back

at their relationship and they're like,

"Oh my god, like why did I not see this

or why did I not notice the red flags

sooner?" You couldn't. You were so deep

into it and you still love this person

and you wanted to believe that things

were were going to get better. I think

that's that's why the the brain is such

a beautiful but such a tricky thing

because our brain doesn't want us to

suffer. So our brain our brain will make

rationalizations to to help us survive.

Um but it also can keep us in states of

manipulation and states of abuse. So

that's that's why I love radical

acceptance and I think I don't think it

gets talked about a lot because I think

there's a lot of like miscommunication,

misconception around it and people maybe

thinking that it's just like oh yeah,

you're going to accept the behavior. I

think maybe radical acceptance isn't the

best word for it. It's like

radical I don't know. I'll noodle on

that one. I think radical acceptance

does not mean tolerating does not mean

tolerating of disrespect or poor

treatment. Radical acceptance to me

would mean just fully acknowledging it

is what it is. Yes. That doesn't mean

you need to continue tolerating it and

being involved with it, but it first

comes down to acknowledging what exactly

is going on. And I think that's where

radical acceptance would help someone.

Yes. And it's it's the first step to

many steps. I think if you know if

whenever somebody is in something very

deeply abusive I always tell them okay

like let's let's try to go to a point

where you see it for what it is and not

for what you want it to be right and now

you coach people now too what do you

hear people struggling with the most

that what do you hear people getting

caught up on that is such a great

question I think a lot of the times it's

um why did this happened to me? Why me?

Why somebody who gave them everything,

who was such a great partner to them?

And I think that's a really I think

that's a really vicious cycle to be

stuck in sometimes because it puts the

onus on us and not necessarily on their

actions and it can keep the victim in

this cycle where they're having to

continue to explain themselves and to

continue to explain why they left. when

in reality, regardless of how perfect

you were, regardless of, you know, how

much of a better partner, wife, whatever

you could have been to this

person, they were going to treat you the

exact same way. It's literally like

rinse and repeat. Whoever the supply was

at the time is who's going to get that

side of them? And I think that's

something that I hear a lot. I think

another thing that I hear a lot is can

they change? Um, and from what I've

seen, it's it's it's a difficult

question to answer because you never

want to say, "No, nobody can change.

They're never going to change. 0% chance

that this person is going to get

better." But I think for somebody like a

narcissist specifically to want to get

help, it takes a lot of self-awareness

and it takes a lot of accountability to

even get to that point where they want

to change. And unfortunately, like

that's the hallmark of the personality

disorder is that lack of accountability

and that lack of self-awareness. And you

know, maybe you maybe they're aware of

how they're hurting people, but they

don't really care to change it because

it really benefits them. Um, so being in

a relationship like with somebody like

that, it's they don't love you for who

you are, they love you for what you can

do for them. Um, so when people ask me,

can they change? I say, "Yeah, not

really." Um because it takes that level

of accountability that they don't really

possess in the first place. Um so it's

it's kind of freeing to hear that to

know that no, no, no, there's there's

not a lot of there's not a lot of change

that can happen there. Um because then

you kind of take the the shame off of

you not being enough and it's really

just their own thing and that's how

they're going to operate through life,

right? And I think regardless of what

they say, what the toxic or narcissistic

person says, you got to trust their

actions. Their actions are going to

speak the loudest of all. They might say

all sorts of things. Some may even say

they're sorry or they'll do anything to

try to get you back in a hoover. But the

the actions will speak the loudest. And

I think it's also important to remember

that there are different levels of

severity and there's different types of

narcissists, too. But regardless of

that, if someone could never admit when

they're wrong, they could never admit

there's even an issue. I would be very

hesitant to believe there was ever any

change. And yeah, I think also what you

reminded me of too is people look at

relationships that their ex get into and

from the outside, oh yeah, they can

appear fine from the outside on social

media. Oh, he's been with this person or

she's been with this person for years.

Does that mean that they're treating

their new partner better than they

treated me? And to which I would say to

them, you have no idea what's really

going on behind closed doors there.

Because when both people are in it, the

person who's being mistreated, they

don't want people to think they're being

mistreated. A lot of times they don't

want people to think that until they're

out. But when they're in it, most of the

time they're going to defend them and

they're going to act like they're in the

happiest relationship. And usually those

are the relationships that are covering

up for something. The ones that are like

every other day, I love my partner so

much. It's like, are you sure? Is there

something going on? Right? Because it's

like if you are so happy, you don't need

to scream about it and you don't need to

make a performance of it. And I think

that's something that I hear a lot too

is like watching them a narcissist move

on or their ex move on. They do it

quickly, they do it loudly and they look

so happy, but they'll say, "Oh, they

seem so happy with this new person." And

that's the key word is seem. Because

what's actually happening beneath the

surface is that it's a rerun. They don't

build new relationships. They recycle

that performance. It's the same love

bombing, same over-the-top charm, same

like fast track of connection. Um, and

if they seem like they're suddenly

healed, it's because that new supply

hasn't seen the full script yet. Um, and

it's it's a lot about image management

because I think with um with a

narcissist specifically, it's not just

about ego, it's about a lot of like

fragility and like deep insecurity

that's underneath that ego. And they

tend to build their identity around

being right, around being admired,

around being in control. And confronting

their flaws feels like an annihilation

of who they are. So most narcissists

don't change. They just adapt to a new

situation. They just shapeshift, say

what you want to hear, throw you little

crumbs to buy time. Um, and I think

that's where so many people get caught

because that change might looks re might

look real, but the patterns are going to

repeat and they might get better at

hiding it, but they usually don't get

better at actually healing it. And I

think a good one to remember is their

hyper sensitivity to criticism and

perceived criticism. that causes a lot

of the chaos that if they feel they've

been attacked because they perceive

disagreements as attacks a lot of times

or being corrected as an attack, then

see how they act in those moments.

That's going to be very telling. Oh,

yeah. That is core narcissistic

behavior. And it's it's not random. It's

it is very short. It's unpredictable.

And I think what most people don't get

is that narcissists aren't very

confident, right? They they crave praise

because they have that very fragile

sense of self underneath, but their

entire identity is held together by how

they're perceived and not who they

actually are. So when you do offer

feedback like that, constructive even,

it feels like a personal attack because

to them it doesn't mean I want to work

on this with you. It means I see who you

are behind this mask. And then the

defense mechanisms kick in, the

deflection, your overreacting, the

projection, you're the one with the

issue, the rage, the withdrawal, and

what starts as, you know, you wanting to

get clarity or you wanting to tell them

how their actions hurt you, it turns

into a storm. And that's that's the trap

because feel like normal I don't want to

say normal but people who aren't

narcissistic want connection but people

like that who are abusive who are

manipulative really just want compliance.

compliance.

That's a big one. Do you know Dr. George

Simon? I do. Yes. So he was telling me

that the story of narcissists right he

fel he falls in love with his image and

when someone conflicts that they have

this image that they want admired that

they want praised and if someone does

the opposite criticizes or corrects them

they really don't like that uh

discongruency I'm not even sure if

that's a word or inongruency that's the

word so they really get upset about that

and I think that's one of the biggest

things. Just telling them no, seeing how

they act where they don't get their way

or how they treat people that can do

nothing for them. Those are usually the

clues of something that's going on. Oh,

it's a huge red flag. If you try to set

a boundary with somebody or if you try

to say no to somebody and they blow up

out of it, like that is that is a

massive red flag. And to them, like

there's no such thing as boundaries.

Boundaries equal betrayal. boundaries

equal defiance. And I think if you're in

a relationship with somebody like that,

it's really important to to like peel

back the curtain a little bit and think

and ask yourself like why why are they

having such a visceral re reaction to

somebody that to something that seems so

normal to me and talking about my

feelings and talking about, you know,

wanting to find some sort of common

ground. And I think um there's a lot of

emotional conditioning that happens in a

relationship like that. So, it's

important to to have boundaries from the

be from the beginning. And it it's it's

hard to do that for sure. But I think

it's it's practice makes perfect. And

the more you do it, the easier it gets.

And you reminded me there's a lot of

people who are saying the narcissist in

my life, they tried to weaponize their

boundaries and they're trying to

withhold my kids or do something. And I

said, that's not really a boundary then.

That's more of a punishment. If they're

doing something to hurt you, that's not

a boundary. Oh yeah. If that's their

intention, it's to punish, manipulate,

or to control you. That's not the same

as a boundary. I agree. Boundaries to me

are about like safety, honesty, and like

mutual respect, but I I agree. And

narcissists don't really use boundaries

for those reasons. They use them for

control, right? And they they weaponize

that healing language. um like therapy

talks, self-help phrases, and you know,

I my ex used to say to me like, I need

to protect my energy, so I'm going to

block you or um I'm setting a boundary

right now, so you're not allowed to

question me. Which is like, okay, I

don't think that's the I don't think

that's the point of setting a boundary.

And if it's one-sided like that, like

that's that's not a boundary. That's

like emotional dominance or whatever.

Slick that's slippery. A lot of people

they comment in the comment section,

"But the narcissist in my life did this,

they did that. They weaponized this

boundary." No, that's not what a

boundary is supposed to be. Boundaries

something to protect themselves. If

they're doing it to hurt you, now that's

control. Now that's a punishment.

Similar to a silent treatment or

alienating kids from someone, that's

punishing. That's not the same.

Completely agree. I think a true

boundary is it's clearly communicated.

There is it's respectful on both sides.

It's open to discussion where there

where trust exists and I think it's

rooted in like personal responsibility,

not punishment. Whereas a weaponized

boundary is super rigid. It's a shutdown

tactic. It's delivered with some sort of

like superiority or emotional

withdrawal. And I think it's often

framed as self-care, but it's about

control and

weaponizing. Yeah. Weaponizing against

them. Right now, my next question for

you, this is going to be a trickier one,

but it's about confusion. What do you

think the confusion is for people that

don't understand narcissism? And what do

you think the confusion is for the

people who have been victims of

narcissists? What do you think they need

clearing up? And what do you think the

people that don't understand it com at

all? What do they need clearing up?

That's such a great question. I think to

people who are watching from the

outside, um, friends, family, even

therapists, you know, who will sell tell

you, why don't you just leave or are you

sure it's abuse, you know, or have you

tried talking to them about how you feel?

feel?

Um, if you're confused by somebody who

keeps going back to a relationship that

seems obviously toxic from the outside,

just know that it's not weakness, it's

not drama. Because narcissistic abuse

doesn't often start with chaos. It

starts with charm. It starts with

intensity, with somebody who mirrors

everything that you ever wanted and

reflects it back to you like it's a

dream. And very very very slowly over

months the dream starts to turn. At

least for me. It might be quicker for

some people, slower for others. But you

start getting blame blamed for things

that you didn't do. You start explaining

yourself constantly. You start doubting

your own tone, your memory, your

reactions, told that you're too

emotional, you're too cold, too selfish,

too this, to that. And every fight

becomes your fault. Every boundary

becomes a betrayal. And every time you

try to leave, they'll change just enough

to pull you back in. And they will say

just the right thing to make you feel

like, okay, maybe there is some some

hope here. Um, but it's it's so covert

and it's a system that's designed to

keep the other person confused. So when

people ask, you know, why didn't you

just leave? I want you to know that in

their head they tried leaving a thousand

times but that cycle of gaslighting of

guilt fear kept pulling them back in. So

it's not about logic at the end of the

day. It was about survival. So if you

love somebody that's in a relationship

like this, don't shame them. Don't rush

them. Don't say I told you so when it

ends, be there for them. Tell them that

I believe you. I see what's happening

right now and I'm here for you for

whenever you do want to talk about it

because I think that one safe voice in

their head cuts through the

confusion. Um, so I think that's what I

would say to somebody who is confused

about why you would stay in a

narcissistic relationship. Okay. And I

think the thing that would be poisoned

for someone who's in a trauma bond are

some of the things that would be more

appropriate to say if someone's going

through a rough patch in a relationship

and there's and really recognizing the

difference between a rough patch versus

abuse, disrespect, etc. And if you try

to apply the lessons that you would in a

quote unquote rough patch, maybe there's

a health consequence or financial

hardship or something. And if you try to

apply that lesson to a trauma bond,

that's going to be poison because you

don't need that lesson. That's the wrong

lesson to be pulling. And really the

lesson is radical acceptance. That's the

lesson to be pulling the rad like truly

acknowledging what's going on. That's

the appropriate thing to be taking from it.

it.

Oh, 100%. And I think for the ones that

are in the abusive relationship, like

you're not crazy, you're not dramatic,

you're not weak, you're in something

that's designed to confuse you. And I

think narcissistic abuse or any sort of

emotional physical abuse doesn't always

show up as screaming. You know, they'll

say, "I love you." with one hand and

they'll, you know, hurt you with the

other. And it rewrites your memory. It

um makes you apologize for being heard

and it makes you question your worth.

And I think if you feel like you have to

shrink to be loved, that was a big one

for me. Um if you're constantly stuck

between I want to leave or maybe I'm the

problem, you're not alone. It's probably

some sort of some sort of trauma bond

or something that's actually deeply

hurting you. You don't need another

apology. You don't need to find the

perfect words that, you know, finally

make them get how you're feeling. Um,

you're living it and you're going to

survive it. You don't need permission to

want peace and you don't need it to hit

that rock bottom for you to get that

approval to walk away. And I think if

there's a voice inside of you that's

whispering that this isn't love, that's

you. And that's your clarity trying to

pull you back home. H I think another

good thing that you said was just if you

notice yourself pretending if you're

pretending to be someone that you don't

think you are to please this person

that's a big one to pay attention to and

I think that's something that if you

really get quiet for a second and get

grounded yeah people would notice maybe

okay I am trying to put on this mask to

please this person and and it also might

be just to not be abused too right

that's also part of it as well So, I

don't want to say people are only doing

it to please them. It's like, no, it's

to avoid abuse. It's to avoid

disrespect, too. But just the fact that

you're doing it for either reason is the

problem. Exactly. That's that's very

very well said. And it's it's a

confusing space to be in. And I don't

expect anybody to understand it if they

haven't been in it. But it's I think

there should be a little bit less of a

why are you still in this and more of a

why are they doing this or you know why

why are they like this and there's so

much of a of a focus on the victim and

why they didn't walk away and less of a

focus on what are the patterns that this

person is showing them that could have

been you know could have hopefully been

avoided one day and that's kind of why I

started my channel too is like these

little little patterns that we start

seeing end up being the big red flags

that we look back on. We say, "Had I

been able to spot this in the beginning,

maybe I wouldn't have gone further down

the line with this person." And it's

people will say, "Oh, it's petty. You're

overthinking or you're looking too much

into the the fine details." But like,

I'm not overthinking. I'm just thinking.

Right. Right. And I think to the people

who don't understand the relationships

period, yeah, for them to truly know,

okay, this person like everything

they're going to do is going to be about

power, control, managing their image,

narcissistic supply, and avoiding

accountability. And truly though, that

is everything that they're going to do

is going to be fitting into that. And I

think that's what people don't

understand. They don't truly understand

how petty and how ridiculous and how

childish they can go. And when they

don't understand that, then they're

going to be saying advice that's just

not as helpful. And I think I would also

tell to tell them, hey, when that that

person has been lovebombed in the

beginning, and there's really a great

feeling, especially if they get to hit

those right buttons, yeah, that's a

great feeling. People are going to want

to re return to that a lot of times.

That good feeling. People might want to

chase that. And I think that's another

good thing for the people on the outside

to know, too. 100%. And you're human,

you know, at the end of the day. Like,

if you're getting mad at yourself for

wanting to give somebody a chance and

wanting to be empathetic, like I don't

want anybody to lose that part of

themselves. I just want you to stop

giving it to the people that don't

deserve it. Right. And that was the

thing. I when I was listening to your

podcast the other day with [ __ ] is a

bad word podcast. People should check

that out. I'll be making a guest

appearance on there as well. But you had

said that your parents actually were

able to see through your ex's behavior.

And I thought that was pretty good that

they had your back about that and they

knew like they knew when you were going

to call them because they knew things

were going off the rails. It was

important that you had people in your

corner there, not the people that are

going to be the opposite that some

people's families defend the abuser and

they become flying monkeys for them

almost. But thankfully for you, that

wasn't your story. And thank goodness

for that. I mean, it had been it had

been years of abuse up until that point

and they they saw it, you know, four or

five years later into the relationship.

But once they saw it, it's like you

can't unsee that kind of thing,

especially when it's your child, it's

your baby girl, and having them in my

corner made this process so much easier

for me. I mean, I wouldn't say it was

easy, but it was it took a lot of it

took a whole lot of burden off of me

because I felt like at the end of the

day, like I'm going to be loved by my

family and I don't need whatever version

of love this person is trying to give me

because it's not like comparing it to

like how my parents treat me like and

how I want my partner to treat me. And

that's what I ask myself all the time

like especially as I'm like starting to

date now. It's

um does this behavior align with who I

see as my partner in the future? And if

it's not a [ __ ] yes, it's a no. Oh, you

say that too. It's one of my favorite

things. I love it. I love And I'm like,

it's so true, right? like especially

with somebody that you're going to have

as like your your other half or you

know, whatever you want to call them,

your your life partner, but

like it's those little questions that

really save you from getting into the

the wrong relationships or, you know,

not making the right decisions. So, I'm

I'm all about the the hell yeses, [ __ ]

yeses, I should say. It's not a hell

yeah, it's a [ __ ] no. That's it. But I

think also because it is it is more

clear when you put it through that lens.

Like once you see and feel what a good

relationship is like or just a good

connection. It doesn't even have to be a

relationship that works long term, but

just a good connection versus one that's

on unstable ground or you're not quite

sure about or there's abuse. That's

going to be night and day. Like there is

no, you can't even compare the two

because it's just so much different.

Exactly. Exactly. And it's like um

having having that as a comparison, it

really it really builds a foundation for

your next relationships. Like you are

never going to let yourself slip back

into accepting that kind of behavior. Um

and yeah, there's there's so much hope

and there's more people out there that

are good and not abusive than the other

way around. And I I genuinely believe

that. And I think sometimes we feel

ourselves attracted to people or have

this magnetic pull to people who might

not be good for us. But I think once

you've once you've had a taste of the

other the other side, it's so much

easier for you to to tell kind of right

away, okay, this is not going to work

for me and this is not going to this is

not going to be good, right? I mean, and

so that could be the librance or the

twin flames or fill in the blank with

whatever people say. And I think some of

it's just a maturity thing, too. As

people get older, they get a little

wiser hopefully and they learn from

their mistakes and they learn from just

life and they don't make the same

mistakes they did when they were younger.

younger.

100%. I'm glad you brought up the

lirance because that's something that

I've been thinking a lot about too, like

kind of that intensive obsessive

emotional attachment to somebody. And I think

think

it's you have to interrupt that fantasy sometimes and remind yourself what is

sometimes and remind yourself what is and what am I wanting this to be? And

and what am I wanting this to be? And once you get to that that point where

once you get to that that point where you're not romanticizing everything and

you're not romanticizing everything and you're not just seeing the potential of

you're not just seeing the potential of everything, the obsession gets quieter

everything, the obsession gets quieter and that fog lifts and you realize that

and that fog lifts and you realize that it wasn't about them at all. It was kind

it wasn't about them at all. It was kind of you were searching for rescue in

of you were searching for rescue in somebody that was emotionally available

somebody that was emotionally available and um you have to start meeting the

and um you have to start meeting the parts of yourself that were neglected

parts of yourself that were neglected before they showed up. I think another

before they showed up. I think another important question to ask ourselves is

important question to ask ourselves is do we like who we're becoming with this

do we like who we're becoming with this person? Do we like the kind of person

person? Do we like the kind of person that we are when we're with this person?

that we are when we're with this person? I think that's a very powerful question

I think that's a very powerful question to ask too. I completely agree. It's

to ask too. I completely agree. It's like, is the version of myself that is

like, is the version of myself that is in this relationship the version that I

in this relationship the version that I want to be in the future? Because being

want to be in the future? Because being in a relationship that's toxic and

in a relationship that's toxic and abusive like that, it really does change

abusive like that, it really does change you into somebody else. You almost start

you into somebody else. You almost start mirroring that person because they've

mirroring that person because they've they've made you feel like the biggest

they've made you feel like the biggest piece of [ __ ] for so long that you're

piece of [ __ ] for so long that you're like, "Oh, wait. Maybe I am." And you

like, "Oh, wait. Maybe I am." And you kind of start internalizing it

kind of start internalizing it sometimes. And I think that's where that

sometimes. And I think that's where that idea of reactive abuse comes to and

idea of reactive abuse comes to and people are like, "Oh, I'm I must be the

people are like, "Oh, I'm I must be the abuser because, you know, I said

abuser because, you know, I said something to them in retaliation or I

something to them in retaliation or I pushed them." And I think it's very

pushed them." And I think it's very different. Of course, everybody should

different. Of course, everybody should be held accountable for however they

be held accountable for however they react in certain situations, but I think

react in certain situations, but I think that it's not equal footing at all. You

that it's not equal footing at all. You know, I was listening to a couple people

know, I was listening to a couple people talk today about reactive abuse. Dr.

talk today about reactive abuse. Dr. Coach Yella, she calls it self-defense.

Coach Yella, she calls it self-defense. And then Mark Vicente, he just made a

And then Mark Vicente, he just made a real today about it and he had said, "I

real today about it and he had said, "I hate that term because he said,"Wh

hate that term because he said,"Wh shouldn't it be called a reaction to

shouldn't it be called a reaction to abuse as opposed to reactive?" The way

abuse as opposed to reactive?" The way they phrase it, I don't know how they

they phrase it, I don't know how they came up with the phrase that way, like

came up with the phrase that way, like reactive abuse. But I guess they're

reactive abuse. But I guess they're trying to make it so that the person who

trying to make it so that the person who is doing the abuse, they're trying to

is doing the abuse, they're trying to say their behavior, I guess. But it the

say their behavior, I guess. But it the reaction to abuse is what they're

reaction to abuse is what they're talking about.

talking about. Absolutely. I think it that term doesn't

Absolutely. I think it that term doesn't take into account all of the nuance and

take into account all of the nuance and the context around it, right? Because if

the context around it, right? Because if somebody's poking and poking and poking

somebody's poking and poking and poking and poking, pushing all of your buttons,

and poking, pushing all of your buttons, cornering you, like you're going to

cornering you, like you're going to snap. You're going to like you're human,

snap. You're going to like you're human, right? And it's your your nervous system

right? And it's your your nervous system is responding by saying, "Listen, I've

is responding by saying, "Listen, I've tried talking to you. I've tried, you

tried talking to you. I've tried, you know, doing things in a calm way, and

know, doing things in a calm way, and the only way that you're able to

the only way that you're able to understand what I'm going through is

understand what I'm going through is when I explode at you." So, it's like a

when I explode at you." So, it's like a survival technique that you start using.

survival technique that you start using. It's, you know, the moment that your

It's, you know, the moment that your body says enough, I'm not holding this

body says enough, I'm not holding this in anymore. And it's damaging because

in anymore. And it's damaging because now the abuser can use that against you,

now the abuser can use that against you, right? The moment that you scream that,

right? The moment that you scream that, you know, you rage, text them or

you know, you rage, text them or whatever. And it's it's deeply

whatever. And it's it's deeply manipulative manipulative and it can

manipulative manipulative and it can keep you stuck in shame. But I don't

keep you stuck in shame. But I don't think that reactive abuse is a

think that reactive abuse is a systematic type of abuse. It's a trauma

systematic type of abuse. It's a trauma response, right? It's your body crying

response, right? It's your body crying out for help. And for anybody who's gone

out for help. And for anybody who's gone through that, like you were pushed to a

through that, like you were pushed to a place that you were never supposed to be

place that you were never supposed to be in. And that's not who you are. It's who

in. And that's not who you are. It's who you became in this presence of chronic

you became in this presence of chronic danger.

danger. And I would stress to those people,

And I would stress to those people, you're just human. It's a human response

you're just human. It's a human response if you're going to be gas lit and

if you're going to be gas lit and tortured. Yeah. You might have an

tortured. Yeah. You might have an emotional reaction at some point, and

emotional reaction at some point, and that's just being human. And that's why

that's just being human. And that's why I hate it when people say things like,

I hate it when people say things like, "No one can make you feel anything."

"No one can make you feel anything." Because I know a lot of abusers, they

Because I know a lot of abusers, they love that because, "Oh, I can't make you

love that because, "Oh, I can't make you feel anything." I noticed the people who

feel anything." I noticed the people who are narcissistic, they love that because

are narcissistic, they love that because it absolves them. Oh, I can't make you

it absolves them. Oh, I can't make you feel anything. But it's like, no, people

feel anything. But it's like, no, people are human. I mean, if you get punched,

are human. I mean, if you get punched, are you going to bruise? Are you going

are you going to bruise? Are you going to feel pain? So, why is it so different

to feel pain? So, why is it so different with someone's words? Like, if you're in

with someone's words? Like, if you're in the spiritual realm, yeah, words are

the spiritual realm, yeah, words are powerful. Words are absolutely powerful.

powerful. Words are absolutely powerful. how we talk to ourselves is powerful

how we talk to ourselves is powerful just as if a physical action is

just as if a physical action is powerful. So, I've never bought that.

powerful. So, I've never bought that. It's always been a pet peeve of mine

It's always been a pet peeve of mine that no one can make you feel anything.

that no one can make you feel anything. It can be something to strive for, but

It can be something to strive for, but it's not realistic per se.

it's not realistic per se. Things are going to happen. And it

Things are going to happen. And it completely erases the idea of like the

completely erases the idea of like the root cause. Like you're completely

root cause. Like you're completely separate, you have to separate the

separate, you have to separate the reaction from the root and look at why

reaction from the root and look at why this happened and not just how you did

this happened and not just how you did it, right? because I think that's that's

it, right? because I think that's that's what they they want you to feel. They

what they they want you to feel. They want you to feel like you're the

want you to feel like you're the manipulator, that you're the narcissist.

manipulator, that you're the narcissist. And yeah, I think we need to work on

And yeah, I think we need to work on renaming that term and making it a

renaming that term and making it a little bit more palatable, I would say.

little bit more palatable, I would say. So, now the last thing I want to ask

So, now the last thing I want to ask you, masculine containment versus

you, masculine containment versus control, what would you say? What do you

control, what would you say? What do you think about those two things? Oo, that

think about those two things? Oo, that that's that's a really interesting

that's that's a really interesting that's a really interesting question.

that's a really interesting question. And I've been I've been noodling on that

And I've been I've been noodling on that one. I think it's I think it's something

one. I think it's I think it's something that gets misunderstood a lot in

that gets misunderstood a lot in like this space, right? I would say that

like this space, right? I would say that masculine containment is not control.

masculine containment is not control. And if you've experienced abuse,

And if you've experienced abuse, especially emotional abuse, narcissistic

especially emotional abuse, narcissistic abuse, it's easy to conflate the two

abuse, it's easy to conflate the two because they can look very similar at

because they can look very similar at first. Like with control, they'll say,

first. Like with control, they'll say, "Don't wear that. Why didn't you text me

"Don't wear that. Why didn't you text me back? Don't talk to him. Um, I'm just

back? Don't talk to him. Um, I'm just protecting you. And really, it's all

protecting you. And really, it's all about the domination, the ownership, the

about the domination, the ownership, the fear. Um, and it uses power to make you

fear. Um, and it uses power to make you feel small so that you kind of shrink to

feel small so that you kind of shrink to keep the peace. And it makes you feel

keep the peace. And it makes you feel responsible for their emotions. Whereas

responsible for their emotions. Whereas masculine containment is, you know, it's

masculine containment is, you know, it's about emotional safety. It's that

about emotional safety. It's that masculinity that makes you feel

masculinity that makes you feel protected, present, grounded. They'll

protected, present, grounded. They'll say like, you know, I've got you. Um,

say like, you know, I've got you. Um, I'm not going to I'm not going to try to

I'm not going to I'm not going to try to fix you, but I'm not going to let you

fix you, but I'm not going to let you fall alone. You know, you're safe here.

fall alone. You know, you're safe here. Um, I think it makes it makes room for

Um, I think it makes it makes room for your full expression without you having

your full expression without you having to to shrink or silence yourself. And it

to to shrink or silence yourself. And it doesn't restrict you, but it holds you.

doesn't restrict you, but it holds you. So, I think that control is rooted in

So, I think that control is rooted in insecurity, whereas containment is

insecurity, whereas containment is rooted in self-regulation. So, a

rooted in self-regulation. So, a controlling man is reactive, but a man

controlling man is reactive, but a man who provides that masculine containment

who provides that masculine containment is regulated. He creates this calm space

is regulated. He creates this calm space without silencing you um and he's

without silencing you um and he's holding space for you like in a way that

holding space for you like in a way that somebody who's controlling wouldn't

somebody who's controlling wouldn't because they're just managing their own

because they're just managing their own comfort and not necessarily yours. So, I

comfort and not necessarily yours. So, I think um there's that idea of peace,

think um there's that idea of peace, right? Control feels like pressure, but

right? Control feels like pressure, but containment feels like peace.

containment feels like peace. And we could probably do a whole show

And we could probably do a whole show just on that topic, too. That part's

just on that topic, too. That part's super interesting to me. But any other

super interesting to me. But any other closing thoughts you have for us here? I

closing thoughts you have for us here? I just want to say that you're you're

just want to say that you're you're doing amazing work, Jared. Thank you. I

doing amazing work, Jared. Thank you. I you're you're one of the OGs in the

you're you're one of the OGs in the space and I have a lot of respect for

space and I have a lot of respect for you and the way that you talk about the

you and the way that you talk about the topics and you say that you have, you

topics and you say that you have, you know, you're more blunt, aggressive, but

know, you're more blunt, aggressive, but I don't think so. I think that I think

I don't think so. I think that I think that you bring uh honesty to the space

that you bring uh honesty to the space and I think you come from a perspective

and I think you come from a perspective where there's no shame around it and

where there's no shame around it and it's not a a victim mentality which I

it's not a a victim mentality which I know it's it's easy to slip into that

know it's it's easy to slip into that sometimes and that's not to say that

sometimes and that's not to say that we're the problem but I think you you

we're the problem but I think you you advocate for the ownership of you know

advocate for the ownership of you know your own life and your own actions and

your own life and your own actions and giving people

giving people that that strength strength to to know

that that strength strength to to know that hey like I can actually I can

that hey like I can actually I can actually change the course of this and I

actually change the course of this and I can control how the rest of my life

can control how the rest of my life unfolds. So I just want to thank you for

unfolds. So I just want to thank you for being a safe space and to talking to us

being a safe space and to talking to us like like humans and not like um and not

like like humans and not like um and not babying us. I appreciate that. Oh, I

babying us. I appreciate that. Oh, I really appreciate you saying that. And I

really appreciate you saying that. And I think I try to stress it's not blaming

think I try to stress it's not blaming to do that. I'm not saying it's anyone's

to do that. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault that this has happened to them.

fault that this has happened to them. I'm not excusing the abusive person's

I'm not excusing the abusive person's behavior. I just try to tell people what

behavior. I just try to tell people what can you do differently because that's

can you do differently because that's all you have control over is what can

all you have control over is what can you do differently in the future. It's

you do differently in the future. It's not your fault, but what what can you

not your fault, but what what can you learn? What can you do differently?

learn? What can you do differently? 100%. If you get out of any

100%. If you get out of any relationship, good, bad, ugly, pretty,

relationship, good, bad, ugly, pretty, and you don't learn anything about

and you don't learn anything about yourself, that is that is a waste.

yourself, that is that is a waste. Right. And where can people find you?

Right. And where can people find you? All right. You can find me on Tik Tok,

All right. You can find me on Tik Tok, Beyond the Bruise. And then Instagram is

Beyond the Bruise. And then Instagram is Beyondthe. Bruise. And I also have a

Beyondthe. Bruise. And I also have a YouTube Beyond the Bruise. I got to

YouTube Beyond the Bruise. I got to judge that up a little bit. I got to

judge that up a little bit. I got to make you guys some more long form

make you guys some more long form content, but um Instagram and Tik Tok

content, but um Instagram and Tik Tok are my my bread and butters right now.

are my my bread and butters right now. All right. We'll be looking forward to

All right. We'll be looking forward to your new YouTube content, too. Thank you

your new YouTube content, too. Thank you so much, Jared. It was a pleasure and an

so much, Jared. It was a pleasure and an honor. Oh, it was a pleasure having you

honor. Oh, it was a pleasure having you on here as well. And thanks for the kind

on here as well. And thanks for the kind words, too. Thank you.

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Narcissistic vs Healthy Relationships with Marcela From Beyond The Bruise