YouTube Transcript:
Michael Saylor: The Blueprint for A New Financial System

Skip watching entire videos - get the full transcript, search for keywords, and copy with one click.

Video Transcript

Video Summary

Summary

Core Theme

The discussion highlights the inefficiencies and outdated nature of traditional 20th-century financial markets, arguing that Bitcoin and innovative digital credit instruments offer a superior, more efficient, and accessible alternative for capital formation and investment.

There are no losers here except

the 20th century antiquated oligopoly

that is selling inferior credit

instruments. But that's technology. The

human race has got to move forward. The

skeptics and the cynics, they choose to

be strategically ignorant.

>> 27 years ago, you didn't have trading

apps on your phone. And now it's even

more accessible, but yet the market is

still held back. The investment cycle is

a thousand times faster than technology,

real estate, anything else you've ever

seen before in your life. We're

literally selling 50 million an hour or

100 million an hour and buying the $100

million of Bitcoin the same hour.

>> Is there an appetite for

overcolateralized debt that pays 10%.

>> Just go walk down the street and ask a

100 people, would you like a stable

investment that yielded 10% tax

deferred? If you think the Bitcoin is

okay, I can jack your retirement income

from 30,000 to 120,000. So what we're

really talking about is creating a

annuity or a pension. And so what's the

offers like happily ever after? It's

social security. That's the product for

how many people? Like a billion. We need

to go build the world that we want. The

real interesting question for all of us

>> Michael, first of all, thank you for

taking the time to sit down with me here

in DC.

>> Yeah, happy to be here.

>> I've gotten to spend a little bit of

time with you, but we've never sat down

one-on-one, so I've been excited for

this. There's one question I've always

wanted to ask you because I love history

and I know you majored in science of of

history history of science, but you also

have like the MIT um engineering degrees

in astronautics, system dynamics, and

history of science. So, it seems like

this unique blend and I'm just curious

how that the history so you sort of get

the history as well as like aeronautics

helps you maybe understand Bitcoin

better and maybe sort of see where the

future of Bitcoin goes.

Yeah, I I think

when you read history, I I've read a lot

of history of late uh in its original

form, you see historians observing

things. They're making observations.

They're noting it's suboptimal, like

observing 10,000 tragedies, >> right?

>> right?

>> Then occasionally you'll see

philosophers who are complaining about

it. So philosophers synthesize and they

complain about about what they don't

like, right? or they lament that it

isn't better. The Austrian economists,

the philosophers,

the engineers build machines that work.

Airplanes, ships, railroads,

right? Etc. Electric motors. Um the scientists

scientists

they uh they divine the relationships,

the math that you know explains the

universe. and the physicist, you know,

and the mathematicians take that, you

know, to the extreme, right? Um, I I had

a background in all those things. I

think it was useful to have studied

physics. It's useful to have studied

math. It's useful to have studied all

the sciences, the engineering

disciplines which get deep in

thermodynamics and mechanics. And I

think it's also useful to have studied

history and philosophy and the history

of science is particularly interesting

subject because it goes back and looks

at the histories but it's extrudes it

through or or filters through a

scientific lens like like the the

classic non-scientific historian says

this happened and this happened and and

that was suboptimal,

>> right? And the history of science

historians says that happened because of

this, that happened because of this, you

know, guns, germs, and steel, right?

That the the Europeans didn't just show

up to the new world, and then they

conquered it. They showed up to the new

world, brought a germ, and everybody died,

died, >> right?

>> right?

>> They didn't have to conquer it,

>> right? 90 95% of the natives died, you

know, and that's that's actually a, you

know, a biological explanation for what

happened. If you don't understand, you

know, the the the science of immunology

or you don't understand germs, you

couldn't explain it, right? Um and then

you know if you think about the impact

of steel what's it take to create steel

and explosives and gunpowder

you know and um so the history of science

science

is all about how technology dynamics

uh channeled the course of human history

and I think the reason it's uh important

to Bitcoin is is you can't really

understand Bitcoin if you're not an

engineer if you don't understand

engineering systems engineering, control

systems, servo mechanisms,

uh st system stability.

You got to understand all those concepts

intuitively. If you don't understand thermodynamics,

thermodynamics,

you know that the the people that are

pure computer scientist who are weak on

physics and engineering and systems

oftentimes they create rub Goldberg

devices in code that right

>> that a hardcore engineer wouldn't build,

right? And so you can't just be a coder.

And of course, if you're a pure engineer

and you reduce the world to I built a

ship or I built a I built a gun, but you

don't consider the implication of the

ships and the guns on the course of

economic and political history, >> right?

>> right?

then you don't really understand Bitcoin

either because you have to understand

the history of money and the history of

economics and mercantile networks and

yeah the idea the idea credit networks

are local like the a German prince can

have a credit network a British prince

can have a credit network but gold or

silver networks tend to be transnational

right that uh the French the Germans the

Brits the Persians and the Chinese could

all agree to trade on a silver network

or a gold network but not on a Chinese

paper money network. And so when you

start to understand

the uh the impact of technology that's

metallic money on economic networks and

then the impact of a ship with guns on

it, you know, on that economic network

or the impact of of not having immunity

to all the germs the Europeans brought

or the impact of not having steel and

being stuck in the stone age. All of

those things have an impact on the way

the world evolved and I think Bitcoin is

it's crossing every one of those fields right

right

>> right now

>> right yeah so being able to synthesize

that information and understand the

cause and effect and then looking at the

changes today as you said sort of a

multinational asset strong as steel fast

um etc then you can start to it seems

like you could start to see maybe the

future that that creates better than

most people

>> well I just I I think if you've got a a

broad synthetic

educational background, if you've

studied a bunch of different subjects,

had a lot of experience, you appreciate

Bitcoin more. If you have a very narrow background,

background,

if you understand economics or if you

studied economics but never studied

engineering, you'd be missing half the

equation. And if you're an engineer that

doesn't understand economics and never

been in business or never traded

internationally or never traveled,

>> Yeah. or didn't know anything about history.

history. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, you would also understand only

a part of the equation. So, I just think

you need to know a lot of different

subjects in order to fully appreciate >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> the impact and the significance of the

invention of Bitcoin.

>> Yeah. Which is then in your professional

career building technology companies.

And so you kind of predicted a lot of

the technology companies that have grown

in some of your books that you wrote in

the past, but then also navigating those

tech companies through the capital

markets then sort of gives you a new

perspective to see the deficiencies in

the current capital markets that we have

today and then help you kind of think

about fixing those with jumping into

sort of like this refinery model trying

to um see solve some of the deficiencies

in those capital markets. The way

companies acrew capital. Yeah, I think

what can be said of the capital markets

is um 99.9% of the companies are locked

out of them.

Right? So the first question you got to

ask is how come there's 40 million

businesses in the United States but

there's only like 4,000 publicly traded companies,

companies,

>> right? So don't have access to the capital.

capital.

>> Okay. So it doesn't sound like a like if

I said only 4,000 companies have

telephone and internet access and the

other 40 million businesses don't. What

would you say? Yeah, that'd be a problem.

problem.

>> Yeah. What? Yeah. What if I said 4,000

companies have bank accounts and the

other 40 million don't? >> Right.

>> Right.

>> So, so you just start with the

observation that the capital markets

can't be all that effective if 99.99%

of the companies can't access them,

>> right? And you know beyond that the

other observation is if you look at the

companies that are in the public market

if you look at the the thousands of

publicly traded companies it's like 20

that control all the attention >> right

>> right

>> and uh so you know most public companies

are zombie companies they're uninteresting

uninteresting

no one cares about them they carry a

huge burden of regulatory compliance and

um they don't get the attention they

deserve. So, one could characterize the

capital markets as being um unwieldy, ineffective,

ineffective,

right? And it's, you know, and what is

that? They're 20th century instruments

that never really evolved in the 21st

century. You got to ask the question,

why does it take three years to raise

money? If you have a small business, why

can't you do it in three days,

>> right? Why does it uh you know why does

why is it impossible to take custody of

your own stock shares?

>> Why is it impossible to trade shares on

Saturday afternoon, >> right?

>> right?

>> Why is it impossible to transfer things globally?

globally?

>> You know, why is it why is it that you

can actually take a million dollars of

cash and get paid interest on it, but

you can't take a million dollars worth

of stock shares and get paid for that?

Yeah. why why you know so there are all

these things that just are very

inefficient that we just take for

granted but they don't work very well

>> right a lot of that is technology being

inefficient and here we're at this in DC

at this Bitcoin policy event um and a

lot of that might also be regulatory

right so a lot of that regulations maybe

prevent some of that

>> yeah generally of oftent times whenever

you have a highly regulated industry um

progression stops >> right

>> right

>> the banking. If you look at the credit

markets, they seem to be stuck in to

they're stuck in a mode that was probably

probably

probably uh modern 30 years ago. Like

they're 30 40 years old and they haven't

advanced. If you look at the equity

markets, it's the same way. For example,

you know, my company came public in 1998.

1998.

We traded on NASDAQ from 9:30 in the

morning till 4 in the afternoon. The

year is 2025. We trade on NASDAQ from

9:30 in the morning till 4 in the afternoon,

afternoon, >> right?

>> right?

>> What's the difference between the way my

stock trades today and the way it traded

27 years ago? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Nothing.

>> Nothing. Nothing.

Nothing. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Could you imagine any other

industry where there was no material

change for 27 years?

>> Every day we see headlines about

inflation and debt and diminishing

control over our own money. That's why I

always come back to Bitcoin because it's

built for generations. It's built for

legacy. But protecting your Bitcoin

legacy the right way, it's not always

simple. It demands discipline, focus,

and the right partner. Now, that's why I

personally use Unchained Signature. It's

a premium private client service for

serious Bitcoin holders who want expert

guidance, resilient custody, and an

enduring partnership. Now, with

Signature, you're paired with your own

dedicated account manager. Someone who

understands your goals, helps you every

step of the way. You're going to get

white glove onboarding, sameday

emergency support, personalized

education, reduce trading fees, and

priority access to exclusive events and

features. Unchain's collaborative

custody model is designed to provide the

same security as the world's biggest

Bitcoin custodians, but for those who

prefer to hold their own keys. Now, I've

been using and recommending Unchained

for years. I even got my parents to set

up with them. So, if you want to get set

up, check out Unchained Signature at unchained.com/mark

unchained.com/mark

Moss. And as a loyal listener, I got a

discount for you. Just use code Moss 10

at checkout to get 10% off your first

year because your Bitcoin isn't just for

life, it's for generations. And and one

of the differences, I mean, 27 years

ago, you didn't have trading apps on

your phone, and now it's even more

accessible, but yet the market is still

had held back even though retail could

access it easier.

>> Yeah. uh because you know the

traditional finance industry is highly

regulated and it has it has uh settled

into a comfort zone and you know the

forces of progression are in the crypto

industry the most of the force in the

traditional finance industry are forces

of regression like that the the

knee-jerk reaction is why shouldn't we

do this why is this a bad idea if you if

you listen to all the Gendler speeches

for the last four years it's always why

this is a bad idea Right.

>> Right. Like why why can't uh why can't I

issue a token, you know, for my small

business over the weekend? Well, we got

to protect the investors, >> right?

>> right?

>> Okay. So, that's why we're going to

disenfranchise 40 million companies from

being able to raise money because the

people that might want to invest in them

might not be qualified to make that

investment. So, it's kind of like, well,

why don't we give cars to people below

the age of 60? We got to got to protect

the pedestrians or protect the you know

it's like if you if you took that rule

and you applied it to phones or cars or

websites or flying in an airplane, we

would have no automotive industry. We'd

have no aircraft industry, >> right?

>> right?

>> We'd have no telephones. We'd have

nothing cuz we wouldn't do anything

until we sure that no one would be

harmed by the doing of the thing,

>> which is impossible.

>> We wouldn't even have fire, you know? We

wouldn't want someone to get burned. We

wouldn't have electricity. people might

get shocked, >> right?

>> right?

>> Gotta protect the, you know, >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> gotta protect the people that might get

hurt by the new idea. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So, that's pretty much the existing

status quo in in traditional finance and

it has been for 30 years. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And with the advancements of technology,

I'll get I want to get more into the

politics side and and you talked earlier

on your keynote about maybe the last 12

months of this big political winds that

shifted. Um but kind of sticking with

some of the ways that technology is

changing. Um on your keynote you said

you spent I think about 30 years trying

to come up with a billion dollar idea

which you did. Um and then couldn't come

up with the next one and now half a

dozen billion dollar billion dollar

ideas in the last you know year or two.

Um and that's sort of in in New York at

the unconference you talked about this

refinery model and standard oil sort of

taking this raw asset like Bitcoin and

creating products off of it. And so

you're creating now products off of it.

Um that's the model to do this. What

what would be the kerosene of this industry?

industry?

>> Um kerosene represents most highly

refined crude oil. It's like it's pure

liquid energy, right? It's jet fuel. You

put it in rockets. Like you can't refine

oil more than kerosene. So it's an

important metaphor. It's the cleanest,

highest grade distilled

uh liquid energy. Like pure grain

alcohols, right? That's what you're

talking about there from a from a bunch

of uh potatoes, stack of potatoes and

outcomes pure grain alcohol. Um the

equivalent of kerosene in the bitcoin

industry is a treasury preferred credit

instrument like stretch. So uh on one

side you have digital capital Bitcoin

and uh Bitcoin is a long duration

volatile high energy high performance

source of capital. um long duration.

Think of it in terms of like 240 months,

like 20 years. Like you should, if you

want to get the the optimal performance,

you're going to hold it for 20 years.

Like it's a it's a 10 to 20 year type investment,

investment, >> right?

>> right?

>> High volatility right now, it's about 45

bowl implied ball, it's been 50, it's

been 60, it's been 70 bowl. And um high

performance, you know, appreciating 50%

a year,

>> right? So that's the raw commodity. Um

what happens if I uh if I strip away the

volatility, strip away the risk, strip

away or compress the duration,

translate it to a given currency and

extract the yield. Right? That's what a

treasury credit instrument or treasury

preferred is. So that's what stretches.

The idea is

you build something that's got one

month. Like I'm going to give you 10%

dividend yield for one month. Like the

duration is one. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> The yield is 10%. The currency base is

US dollars, >> right?

>> right?

>> Uh the spread is like if if the

risk-free rate is 400 basis points and

that's like a 6% 600 basis point credit

spread. I've extracted a 600 basis point

spread for the next month in US dollars, >> right?

>> right?

>> Maybe I 5x overcolateralize it. Maybe I

10x if I you know raw Bitcoin is like

one to one. It's like if I have a dollar

Bitcoin, I have a dollar of Bitcoin. If

Bitcoin trades down 50%, I've lost half

my money, >> right?

>> right?

>> But if I 10x over collateralize

something, I have $10 of Bitcoin, I have

$1 of stretch. If Bitcoin trades down

50%, I still got a dollar of stretch. If

Bitcoin trades down 90%, I still have a

dollar of stretch. The statistical odds

of Bitcoin trading down 90% or like

point something, right? It's a small

percentage. So by over collateralizing

you strip away the risk

by structuring it to adjust uh if you

put a set of adjustments

uh or representations below par below 100

100

you start to strip away the volatility

on the downside. If like with stretch

what we did is we put in a call option

at 101

>> and then we told the market we're going

to sell it actively at 100 or better right

right

>> like and then we also told the market

we're not going to sell it below 99

>> and if it's below 99 we're going to

raise the dividend >> right

>> right

>> okay so you're you're kind of collaring

this instrument

and then then the last point is we

created a preferred instrument where we

pay it monthly in cash and then we

adjust the dividend every month. So, it

turns out if you scan in the history of

preferred stocks or the history of the

credit markets, no company's ever issued

a preferred uh preferred stock where the

management has discretion to adjust the

dividend every single month. Like there

are some preferred that are floaters

where they set the credit spread at 350

basis points over sulfur and they will

float with sofur with the risk-free rate.

rate.

>> And there are a lot that are fixed where

you set it at 7% and the principle will

trade up and down if sofur falls or

rises. But the idea that the credit

spread is completely variable

is a new idea. But by the way, not a new

idea in the world of credit because who

does this? Well, nation states do it.

>> The Fed

>> literally that's what a central bank

does, right? That's what every central

bank does. They set the interest rate on

their currency. Y

>> what we did was just copied, you know,

>> traditional bankers and we set the

interest rate on our currency which is

stretch. So that is the kerosene of of

the Bitcoin you know treasury company or

of the digital assets industry because

it's the it represents the greatest

degree of financial engineering just

like kerosene represents the greatest

degree of petroleum engineering

>> right I I've done the most uh refining

I've distilled the highest quality

product you could imagine for example

you could you could uh extract the same

product in yen. So I want to create a

yen instrument that's 10,000 yen that

pays you know a monthly yen cash yield

or a cash dividend. I change that every

month and now I've now I've created the

equivalent of kerosene for the Japanese

market. And of course what does

everybody want? Everybody kind of just

wants I've got some money I need to park

for the next 90 days. If I put it in the

bank, if I put it in the bank in Japan,

I get 50 basis points or less. I put it

in the bank in Switzerland, I get minus

50 basis points. If I put it in the bank

in Europe, I get 200 basis points or

less. If I put it in the bank in the US,

I get 400 basis points or less. And so

what I'd like to do is put it in some

kind of structure where I'm going to get

my money back in nine months or six

months or whatever. the principal is not

going to move around, but I'm going to

get 10%. >> Right?

>> Right?

>> Everybody wants a bank account that pays

10% instead of 4% or 2% or 0%.

And uh and so I think I think the most

interesting product that you can create,

the most interesting digital credit

product is a treasury preferred credit

instrument for corporate treasurers or

for retirees, right? Just, you know, and

how big is that market? It's like $30

trillion in the US. Yeah.

>> of just short-term treasury money. So 30

trillion in the US that's getting paid sofur.

sofur. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh the opportunity with digital credit

credit

is um you create a company, you hold

Bitcoin, that's digital capital. You

start to issue credit instruments on top

of the capital and you can decide uh how

much risk do you want to strip away. Is

it uh a BTC rating of two which is two

times over collateralized or is it 10? >> Right.

>> Right.

>> Right. Two is less risk stripped away.

10 is more risk stripped away. Strip

away the amount of risk you want. Strip

away the amount of volatility. Uh the

smaller the instrument compared to the

overall collateral pool, the less the

volatility. And then there are a lot of

terms and conditions that you can put in

the instrument that would uh constrain

the volatility. So you decide how much

volatility and risk you want to strip

away. Decide how much yield you want to

give it. You decide whether you want it

to be in pounds or Canadian or euros or

yen or

>> whatever you know and then you distill

out you extrude the yield and the pure

you know boost over the risk-free rate. Yeah.

Yeah.

>> And you offer that to the marketplace.

>> Yeah. I saw you ask it both at New York

unconference and then today at the

keynote. Just let me see a raise of

hands like how many people have a bank

account that like 10% and of course

everybody wants that. So we can see the

demand for that is

>> nobody in the world's getting paid five. >> Right.

>> Right.

>> Right. Uh we created a product uh STRD

stride. It's the junior long duration

credit instrument. Right now it pays

12.6% and so the average per but 12.6%

6% as a return of capital. So it's tax deferred.

deferred.

And if you put your money in the bank,

you're going to get 4% pre-tax, 3% after

tax. Right.

>> So it it pays anywhere from three to

four times

as much cash flow. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So that those are really interesting products.

products. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> That we're creating in the market.

>> Yeah. I mean just in the US we have 7

trillion sitting in money market

accounts just trying to earn a third of

that yield that you're paying out there

and so then you have four different

products and so not everybody wants

kerosene some people might want other

products and then you've got strike

strife stride and now stretch and so

each one of those sits in a different

location that gives them a little bit of

a different variation of the kerosene.

>> Yeah. pure kerosene like the the I would

think I would say the other ones are

kind of like gasoline or diesel or

plastic or or you know the or NAPA or

there's a lot of other petrochemicals

you know the entire petroleum industry

is fascinating because out of a barrel

of oil doesn't just come gasoline diesel

and jet fuel also uh you get acrylics

you get fibers you get polyester you get

lycra you know you get PVC you get the

you get the stuff that we make doors

with it, we make walls with it, we make

pipes with it, we wear it, we look

through it,

we burn it.

>> Think Think about how profound it is.

Like just around this room, if you

glanced at the room, you'd probably find

there's probably a hundred or hundreds

of petrochemical products in this room.

>> Yeah. That have been created. So, um the

possibilities are endless. But if you

come back to just what we've done,

right, we're just one company and we're

just we're showing what's possible. Um,

Strike was the first and it is a

convertible preferred. So strike shows

how you can you can extract any amount

of yield, delta, duration,

duration,

risk or volatility. So with strike we we

basically gave it about 35 delta that is

like 35% of the upside of the equity. So

you get you know you get an equity

component then you get like a right now

it it's like 8 and a half% yielding like

it pays 8% at par. Um, so we gave it a

dividend at 8%, we gave it an equity

component for some up upside

and then we made it cumulative and so it

gave it some seniority privileges and uh

that's for people that kind of just they

don't want to buy Bitcoin and be on the

roller coaster. They want to get I call

it a Bitcoin fellowship. It's like, you

know, it's like you buy it, you're

waiting for the upside and you're

getting paid a, you know, a living stipen,

stipen, >> right?

>> right?

>> While you're waiting, yeah, you know,

for the principal to appreciate. So

that's one instrument

>> because it will convert into MSTR at a thousand

thousand

>> because it's got a conversion rate,

right? So, if you believe if you want to

hold something for 30 years, well,

you're going to get 30 years worth of

dividends and at the end of 30 years,

you're you're holding say for a $100

stock, you're holding a if you have a

one of these, you've got a $40 worth of

of equity when you buy the $100 instrument.

instrument.

So that's for people that want some

upside with downside protection with

with guaranteed cash flow,

right? Uh which a lot of investors want,

right? I mean, a lot of investors if

they if they wanted max upside, max

volatility, you would buy the Bitcoin, right?

right?

>> But can I go 30 years without any cash flow,

flow, >> right?

>> right?

>> Can I go 10 years without cash flow?

>> And can I stomach the volatility? Yeah.

>> Yeah. And there are a lot of people that

just don't want the volatility, right,

for any number of reasons. So that's

strike. It it turns out that strike is

the most volatile of the four preferred

instruments because it's got that equity

component in it, >> right?

>> right?

>> And it's got longer duration and so that

means it's got more volatility to

interest rate forward curve and it's got

more volatility to Bitcoin price and

more volatility to MSTR price. Um the

second thing we did was Strife STRF and

that was long duration senior credit. So

it pays 10% dividend in par forever

and uh that means that um and it doesn't

adjust. It's like a it's like a you know

it's not a bond because it's a dividend.

It's better than a bond because in that

if you want cash flow because the

dividends get better tax treatment and

if it becomes if it becomes a return of

capital which is what it is right now

it's completely tax deferred. So

that's uh that's for someone who's a

long-term credit investor and it happens

to be senior in the capital structure.

So it so it it gets paid off before

everything else and it has penalty

provisions if we ever skip a dividend,

right? And so extremely riskadverse

institutional investors that want the

credit, but they want to be ahead of

everybody else in the stack, they would

buy that. Well, that's trading above par

right now. So, it pays like 9% effective yield.

yield.

Okay? Because it's senior.

We followed that with a with the

identical instrument. Uh we basically

10% at par, but instead of cumulative,

we made it non-cumulative. And we made

instead of senior, we made it junior.

And instead of the penalty provisions,

we took them out.

>> So get a little more yield.

>> So what it does is it makes it

theoretically riskier, you know, to the

person studying the contract, but it

means it trades lower. So that trades

like in the 80s. So that that yields 12

and a half or 12.6%. >> Right?

>> Right?

>> So the issue is why would somebody want

to buy the one without all the investor

protections in the in the security? And

the answer is because you get paid 360

basis points, >> right?

>> right?

>> So, do you want do you want 12.5 or

12.6% for the junior instrument or do

you want 9% to be senior?

>> Well, if Bitcoin,

you know, goes sideways or up and if the

company doesn't fail, then it's going to

cost you 3.6% a year for the rest of

your life to not trust us,

>> right? You see? So, so now you've

actually got there an actual credit

spread. If you're wondering what is the

equity premium between being senior and

then having having none of the

representations, well, you've actually

got the market telling you it's like 3.6

or 3.7% or something. It varies every

single day. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> If you don't trust Bitcoin, if you think

Bitcoin's gone to zero, you wouldn't buy

want to buy any of this. Right. >> Right.

>> Right.

>> And so then it comes down to how much do

you trust the company,

>> right? And if you you know

people buy dividend bearing equities all

the time like every single equity if you

buy Verizon equity or if you buy a

telephone AT&T equity they pay dividends

but they're not required to. They could

suspend them without prejudice and

without penalty at any time.

So could Apple, >> right?

>> right?

>> Do you trust the company? Right.

>> You know that if they suspend it, their

stock's going to take a hit, but

otherwise you're completely trusting

them. Your view is like, well, they

probably won't because the stock will

take a hit. And so the issue is with

Stride, will we pay the dividend? Well,

of course we will, but what what happens

if we don't? Well, if we don't, Stride

will trade way down, right?

>> But then we won't, but and then you're

like, well, why does the why would the

company care? It's like we want to sell it,

it, >> right?

>> right?

>> Like if it if if we actually default on

that obligation, then the instrument

isn't the capital raising vehicle for

us. And the the big idea is

unlike most companies that issue credit

apologetically in order to deal with a crisis,

crisis,

we issued credit strategically, enthusiastically

enthusiastically

with the intent that the credit is the

product. See, when Boeing issues

preferred stock, the product is the

airplane. They sold the preferred stock

because they ran out of money to build airplanes.

airplanes.

We issue the preferred. the product is

the preferred. We didn't never run out

of money, >> right?

>> right?

>> We issued that, you know, why did you

sell a billion dollars of Stride? So I

could sell 10 billion dollars more of Stride.

Stride.

Why did you sell a billion dollars of

Strife so I could sell $10 billion more of

of >> right

>> right

>> Stripe? So we have a a very different

business model in that regard.

We created the stride so we could create

the credit spread because we literally

wanted to have an investment grade type

instrument, a senior one, and we wanted

to have a junior one because there's one

class of investors that want the junk

credit, but like they want 12% yield,

right? It's like it's very simple. Do

you trust the company? Do you want 12

and a half%? You know, do you half trust

the company and you prefer to take the

9%. Well, ironic there's there's markets

for both and they are not the same

investor. Yeah.

>> There are days when everybody wants to

buy Strife and they don't want Stride

and there are other days when they want

to buy >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Stride. And so so that was part of

building out the risk curve. And then

the last thing we did stretch was a very

different idea. Instead of paying an

eight or 10% perpetual dividend forever,

we just said, "Hey, let's actually

reduce this to one month duration,

right?" And so we're only promising to

pay this dividend for a month. The other

one is a promise for a 100red years. And

so theoretically, the Macaulay duration,

the theoretical duration on the other

instruments ends up being between like,

you know, 8 and 20 years or eight and 15

years. It's very long range.

Think of a lever that's 120 months to

240 months long and you know you have a

little change in interest rates and

that's a very big lever to the good of

bad but with stretch the idea is a one

month duration of course inherently

that's going to be less volatile >> right

>> right

>> and you're like well I'm not going to

get capital appreciation if sulfur dives

by 400 basis points I'm not going to

double my money well exa exactly it's

the treasury instrument you're not

buying it to double your money If you

wanted to double your money, if sulfur

dives, you would buy Strife, >> right?

>> right?

>> Right. That's the instrument for the

credit investor that wants to actually

ride it up when interest rates fall or

wants to do the opposite when interest

rates rise. That's a different instrument.

instrument.

It turns out that most people, right,

corporate treasurers, retirees, retail,

most people, they're not really

interested in being long duration credit investors.

investors. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Like ask the ask the average person, do

you have a bank account? Yes. Um, do you

have a 30-year uh

Treasury bond?

No. Like the difference is like 50 to1.

Stretch came last. But ironically,

Stretch is the best piece of financial

engineering and it's probably the most

uh universally applicable product

because what you're doing is just giving

people pure currency cash flow. Pure

pure currency yield without the

volatility, the risk, the duration. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Or the or the delta. It's like, you

know, some people want delta. like I

want the 30 I want 30 or 40% of the

upside of the common stock. Other people

don't. Other people like I want nothing

to do with the common stock. I just want

you to pay me 10% on my money until I

ask for my money back. Right? That's

what they want. It's a very different uh

financial instrument for a different investor.

investor.

>> You you mentioned how when Boeing issues

debt, it's because they need the money.

And when you do it, uh, when Mike when

Strategy does it, you're issuing the

debt because that's the product. And we

think about like if I'm buying the debt

of Boeing, then I'm trusting that their

investment into their airline will have

enough cash flow maybe to pay me in the

future versus I'm paying you, but you're

buying the asset. So, I'm not dependent

on future cash flows because I know you

have the asset and the debt is over collateralized.

collateralized. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Governments will never stop printing

money. So, inflation, it's not going

away. Now, if your money is not earning

at least 10% a year, you're losing

purchasing power. Now, that's why I talk

about Bitcoin. It's the number one way

to beat inflation and secure your

future. And the question I get asked

almost every day is, "Where do you buy

your Bitcoin?" Now, for years, I've

personally used River.com. And I only

take on sponsors that I use and I trust.

And I trust them because River's Bitcoin

only. They have 100% reserve, and they

keep your Bitcoin safe in cold storage

with no middlemen. And you can actually

talk to a real person, a US-based

support dedicated manager. Now, try

getting that peace of mind from

Coinbase. Of course, you can't. Now, the

perks, if you set up auto buys, you can

pay zero fees. Plus, instead of your

bank paying you, you know, 0.4% on cash,

River pays you 3.75%

on cash paid in Bitcoin. So, if you're

ready to build your Bitcoin position

with confidence, go to river.com/mark

moss and get up to $100 in Bitcoin when

you sign up because freedom starts when

you own your money and your money starts

with Bitcoin. Well, if you look at the

credit markets, you've got corporate

credit, that's basically a credit issued

against future cash flows of a company.

You've got investment grade corporate

credit from Apple or Microsoft, and

you've got distressed corporate credit

from quasi bankrupt companies. You've

got junk from companies that can barely

cover that cash, right? And so that's

corporate credit. You've got mortgage

back credit. It's it's when you're

basically issuing credit back by by

mortgage payments of homeowners.

>> Yeah. We saw that play out in 2008.

>> Yeah. And and and you know, it's like

the good news, bad news is if it if it

yields a lot, they probably can't afford

to pay it. And if it yields a little,

you're not getting much yield, right? So

either either they're not going to

default but it doesn't pay you much or

it pays you a lot and they're probably

going to default and that's the great

financial crisis and we learned that.

Well then you've got municipal credit,

you know, a little bit safer but it pays

nothing, right? like almost no two three

very little yield in municipal credit

back by cities and projects like you

know you've got bank credit that is uh

when you deposit a million dollars in

the bank account you bought bank credit

you know they're selling you bank credit

and they're paying you the sofur rate or

the risk-free rate

>> etc. So that's there's that, but you

know, it's pretty uncompelling in most countries.

countries.

>> I mean, the best is the US and

Switzerland and in Japan. It's like

nothing, right? It doesn't pay anything.

Uh and um then you've got sovereign

credit, fiat credit. You know, the

government of the United States or the

government of the UK issues its

sovereign debt and it's and that's

backed by the cash flows of the country.

In theory, the taxing ability of the

country or just the ability of the

country to print its own currency.

And when the country has a collapsing

currency like Turkey, those interest

rates have to be very high, but the

country's currency is collapsing. And

the issue is are you going to want what

are you going to be able to buy with the

currency? Are the interest going to get paid?

paid? >> Right?

>> Right?

>> So really the big bra when's the last

time in a hundred years there's a new

form of credit?

Every one of those credit instruments,

they've all been around for a while. You

could argue that mortgage credit evolved

into a higher form with Freddy Freddy

Mack and Fanny May, right? When what

happened the government started

underwriting the credit risk of

mortgages that drove down the rates that

created systemic risk, right? So that

changed a little bit. But the idea that

a company's going to borrow money or uh

someone's going to mortgage their

property or a government's going to

borrow money or a city's going to borrow

money, none of those are new ideas,

right? I think you can trace them all

back for hundreds if not thousands of

years. So the idea that you know what

was a quasi stable idea issue credit on

gold on a monetary asset. Well, that,

you know, we saw that in the 17th

century, the 18th century, the 19th

century, even the 20th century. You

could argue, you know, British sovereign

debt, French sovereign debt, they were

all goldbacked credit instruments and

they were all backed by various amounts

of gold, but it was almost never one to

one. It was always like under

collateralized and eventually it would

probably got down to 5% collateralized

in 1971 and that's the end of the gold

back credit era. Right. Right?

>> And so now you have digital credit, you

have digital gold, you have Bitcoin,

Bitcoin is digital gold, digital capital.

capital.

The killer use case of digital gold is

issued digital credit instruments.

And the aha the aha moment is any

company any publicly traded company can

create a digital credit instrument with

any degree of yield duration delta

or risk

and to a certain degree with a man wi

with any amount of volatility that they

want. Right? If you want extremely low

volatility, you can't create a lot of

it. Like if if you have a hundred

billion dollars of capital, can you

create a hundred billion dollars of

credit that's low volatility? No. But

you know, the real interesting question

for all of us in the industry is can I

create $10 billion of low volatility

credit with 100 billion in capital? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Or do I need do I need a hundredx? Can I

only create a I'm sure I can create one

billion dollars of very very low

volatility at a hundred times over

collateralization. You'll certainly get

it done with 10x overcolateralization.

I think you'll probably also get it done

at what level 5x 3x 2 at what level

can you not? And of course that's a

function of uh the Bitcoin volatility

too because the less volatile Bitcoin

gets the easier it is to create these

low volatility credit instruments.

>> Would it also depend on the

creditworthiness the trustworthiness of

the company issuing it?

>> Yeah, I think it's it's a function of of

the the issuer, >> right?

>> right?

>> Their reputation, their balance sheet,

what's senior and junior the instrument.

It's a function of uh the type of credit

instrument. Uh is it a bond? Is it a

preferred stock?

It's the container it's in, the security

design, the rails it's running on. Is it

trading on the New York Stock Exchange,

the NASDAQ, the Frankfurt exchange, the

Toronto Stock Exchange, how much

liquidity? It's a function of the

regulators because in a more uh flexible

regulatory environment, the issuer has

more tools to strip the volatility

and in a more inflexible traditional uh

primitive regulatory environment, the

issuer doesn't have the tools. They

can't legally take the action. And even

the technology rails for example

you know uh on the NASDAQ you can't

issue a preferred stock denominated in euros

euros

>> on the NASDAQ

>> on the NASDAQ can't do it uh you know uh

so what if I wanted to pay a weekly

dividend in theory it'd be less volatile

but technically with the existing US

banking system it's not practical to

snapshot the holders of record every

week because there's like a threeday

delay play, you know. So, it's very

problematic to pay a daily dividend or a

weekly dividend. Even monthly is about

the quickest anybody's done.

You know, there there are some

exchanges where they they're more

inflexible on your ability to say do

ATMs and issue securities at the market.

You know there are other there are other

places in Switzerland they've never

issued a there's no support for

preferred stocks in the market okay just

the entire countries >> right

>> right

>> you know

>> in the UK they're hardly used as well

preference shares

>> well there's an issue of whether they're

used or whether it's impossible to do it

too and then and then of course it's

there's a question of can the exchange

you want to trade on support it and the

second question is can uh will the

regulator allow you to issue it and the

Third question is will uh the investors

in the country buy it and the fourth

question is will the bankers that

control those networks sell it. >> Right.

>> Right.

>> And so you really have many many layers

of of support that you need.

>> Yeah. And I and I think over time many

of the the better ideas will spread,

but it's just like the spread of

electricity or gasoline or crude oil or

whatever. It's like they didn't all

spread in the first year. >> Right.

>> Right.

>> Right. Take take Robin Hood. Robin Hood

is is the way people buy a lot of

securities today. They hold they support

common stocks, but they don't support

preferreds. You can't buy stretch,

strike, strife, stride on Robin Hood.

Why? You can't buy any preferred on

Robin Hood. Why? Because no one ever

created one that anybody wanted to buy.

>> Because there's no market.

>> Because most there's a market for

garbage. Like there's a market for 20th

century traditional defective crippled

credit instruments in the preferred

market. Okay? They all pay 6%. They're

under collateralized. They're opaque.

They're heterogeneous credit. Right? and

they're issued by any of 5,000 regional

banks you've never heard of or by 5,000

REITs you've never heard of and they

trade cheap. They're illquid. The bid

ass spreads are wide. They have QIP

numbers. There are no ATMs on them. No

one's ever heard of them. your private

wealth, you know, think about this.

100,000 private wealth advisors,

they're, you know, pulling up their

Bloomberg and they're finding that 97th

issue of some big bank preferred and

they're putting it in your retirement

portfolio and when it comes due or it

gets cold, they're rolling into

something else and they manage your

money and they charge you an X% fee and

the person that actually owns that thing

doesn't know what they own. They've got

XXY QIP149223, >> right?

>> right?

>> And they couldn't even read the screen.

And by the way, there is no quote on the

screen. You'd have to buy a Bloomberg

and pay 25,000 a year to get the quote.

So yeah, there's that market,

but uh but the the modern retail market,

the digital market is like 50 million

people, you know, want to be able to

trade on Saturday afternoon. And so

that's that is not a criticism by the

way of Robin Hood. That's an observation

that you invent a new thing, the

existing distribution infrastructure

never seen the new thing. There's no

there was no demand. So they didn't

build out the rails to move the new thing.

thing.

>> So there's been and the inertia in the

system at the point that those things

become screaming home runs and 27

million people ask for them then you know

know

somebody upgrades the rails and then

they start to distribute them. And so

that's what's going on in the world

right now.

>> It's interesting that you, you know, use

Robin in that example because they're

one of the newer digitally tech forward

uh into crypto. So they're sort of at

the forefront of that and yet they're

still behind the curve.

>> In their defense, what I've just

described didn't exist in January of

this year. >> Sure.

>> Sure.

>> Right. Like >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Like we're literally about to be October

and in January none of these digital

credit instruments existed. So even if

you move f lightning fast is within a

year or two years. >> Right.

>> Right.

>> Right. Most big banks they take three to

five years to study something. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> There are literally credit investors and

fixed income investors. Their view is

well and money managers got to have a

three to five year track record before

we'll consider an allocation to them. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. So I'm not again not being

critical. That's just the the natural inertia

inertia

>> Yeah. of the world and we are moving

very very fast in our industry right now

and the world's going to take a while to

catch up.

>> Yeah. When when we were in London, I was

meeting with some of the bankers there.

We were talking to the Rothschilds and

they're like, you know, we have this

century long um timetable and we don't

move really quickly and preference

shares aren't really something that's

used a lot in the UK. And I said,

"Forget the preference shares for a

minute. Is there an appetite for

overcolateralized debt that pays 10%."

And they're like, "Well, of course."

Right? So, of course, the appetite is

there. You just have to get it packaged

up properly uh in front of the right people.

people.

bond. The reason that we didn't do it is

because you can sell preferred in the US

and if it's a perpetual instrument, you

can attach a at the market shelf

registration to it. And if your goal was

not to sell a billion dollars or half a

billion of bonds, but rather to sell a

billion dollars a quarter forever, if

you wanted to sell billions of dollars a

year forever, then you need to do it

with a perpetual instrument, >> right?

>> right?

>> And of course, a 5year bond's no good

because in three years the bond's almost

about to be called. So,

>> and you'd have to liquidate the Bitcoin

and give it back, which goes against the

entire purpose of accumulating the

Bitcoin. The reason that we don't use

that kind of debt is because eventually

there's a refinancing event and you know

we wouldn't liquidate the Bitcoin. We'd

want to refinance the bond. So we'd

issue a new bond. But the point is who

wants to be beholden to the bond market?

Like do you want to issue do I want to

raise a billion dollars of capital every

four years for the next hundred years?

Because that's 25 deals, >> right?

>> right?

>> And each one of them is 2% fee. And so

I'm gonna pay 50, you know, you're gonna

pay $500 million in underwriting fees or

do I just want to issue the billion

dollars once for the next hundred years

and must not pay the next 50% in fees.

And not and of course the problem is not

just the fees. The problem is the risk

because if you get to a refinance point

and there's a financial crisis or bank

crisis then the window to refinance

bonds closes and now you have to

actually sell some of the underlying assets.

assets.

So, you know what? Speaking of the

Rothchilds, if you read the history of

the Raw Charles, they were very famous

for selling uh consoles, right, which

were uh British government sovereign

debt issued, you know, from like 1760

on, you know, for 100 years. And they

paid 3 to 5%, they were perpetual. They

never came due par value 100 pounds.

So if you think about what that is,

that's actually just what stride is or

strife. It's a, you know, what we did is

just copied uh British sovereign debt

from 200 years ago. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's very humbling to notice that

the world went backwards. In my opinion,

a $100 pound a $100 par value in pounds

that pays 5% forever

a perpetual instrument is a better way

for the government of the UK to raise

capital. It's a better instrument for an

investor to hold. It would adjust the

par value adjust up above par or the

principle adjust above par or below par

depending upon the risk of the nation

and the prevailing you know interest

rate environment.

um you never have to refinance it. What

happened between then and now? We

forgot. We swapped that for issuing

fiveyear notes, threeear notes, one year

notes, three month notes.

>> And uh and in the preferred market, we

issue retail preferred baby per baby

preferred the par value $25

>> or institutional par value $1,000.

I mean, is it not obvious to a school

boy that a hundred is a better par value

than 25. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Or a thousand. And isn't it obvious that

having a perpetual thing that never

comes due is a lot more elegant way to

raise capital than having 19 different

Yeah. You literally, if you look at US

government debt, right, you have stuff

coming due in March, in September, in

April. like

you've you've converted a simple idea

into 25 or 50 different tanches of

individual securities that have to be

continually juggled and traded. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> You made it an accounting nightmare. You

made it a tax nightmare. You made it a

trading nightmare. What about that is

better than the the way that the British

did it during the Napoleonic Wars? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> You know,

>> sometimes we have to relearn those

lessons. Speaking of relearning those

lessons, you've been moving fast and

you've been pioneering this whole

industry obviously and so sort of micro

strategy which used the convertible debt

now strategy which is maybe the 2.0

version using the ATM and press you

rolled out four prefs. You called

stretch like the iPhone moment it had

this huge splash. You were

oversubscribed I think 2.6 billion in

the IPO something like that.

Now looking backwards, is stretch the

perfect instrument? Or really, do we

need all those different instruments for

all the different people? And more

specifically, my question is, if you

were starting over, would you skip ahead

to like a stretch and maybe strike being

convertible isn't the best instrument

anymore? Real estate or Bitcoin? Which

one's better? Well, it's not about

choosing one. It's about using both

together. Because today, 60% of American

homeowners net worth is trapped in their

home. And there's no way to put it to

work in Bitcoin until now. Horizons help

you unlock a portion of your home equity

to buy Bitcoin. And it's not a loan.

There's no new monthly payments and you

stay in your home just as usual, but you

leverage your equity to get Bitcoin

exposure. Now, what makes Horizon stand

out? Well, there's no term limits. You

keep 100% of the upside of the Bitcoin,

and the Bitcoin is yours to custody

however you want with no risk of forced

liquidation. So, if you've got equity,

but you don't want to refinance or take

on new debt, but you would like some

Bitcoin exposure, Horizon could be the

perfect option. So, check out

joinhorizon.com to learn more and get an

extra $500 in Bitcoin if you use my code

moss moss and you get funded. Again,

that's joinhorizon.com

code moss to get an extra $500 in

Bitcoin. I think um we have provided the

entire market with a road map with all

those instruments. They can see how you

can see how they all trade. You can see

the vol the way the volatility profiles

come off them. Like for example, uh the

senior credit instrument strife is

traded to a 10 bowl. Uh stretch traded

to about a 10 ball. The junior

instrument is more like a 20 ball.

Strike is more like a 27 ball. the

equity is more like a 50 bowl or

something. So you can actually see that

you can see the demand in each one of

them. You can see the liquidity profile.

Um they all do serve different investor

bases. So I don't regret having any of

them out there. We will let the market

decide what their appetite is for each

of the four.

I I would say you know in terms of plan

what we know is we won't focus on

convertible bonds or straight bonds junk

bonds unsecured bonds we won't do that

we will gradually equitize our

convertible bonds as they come due and

then uh if I were giving advice to a new

uh digital asset company a new Bitcoin

treasury company if you will I would say

you want to raise as much capital as you

can you want to buy as much Bitcoin as

you can.

You don't really want to have senior

debt. You don't want to have um debt

that has a lean on the Bitcoin.

You know, you in the ideal world, you

might do a convertible bond, but you

don't. But it's not clear to me that you

should. Um, if someone wanted to buy a

convertible bond from you while you're

private, if they showed up with 200

million in cash and said, "I'll give you

$200 million and you and I don't want

the equity, but I want a bond with

conversion, right? And a 35% premium, I

might take that money. That's not

unreasonable." Um,

having said that, if you're already

the reason to do a convertible bond is

you want to raise a lot of capital in a

hurry, but the way you're going to raise

the capital is the person that buys the

bond is going to sell that much of your

equity in four hours. So, if you sell a

$200 million bond, you're probably going

to create $150 million of selling

pressure on the equity that day. And

then the question you'd have to ask

yourself is, why don't you just sell the

equity yourself, right? And so, a lot of

times people that have the convertible

bond, they don't have an ATM. So, if you

don't if you're crippled because you

don't have an ATM, the convertible bond

is the de facto uh you know, triparty ATM,

ATM,

>> but you pay a price, right? You might as

well just dump $200 million of your own

stock on the market, not owe anybody, >> right?

>> right?

>> The stock will take a hit.

>> They're going to do it anyway.

>> The stock will take a hit, but if you do

the convert, the stock will take a hit,

but you'll still owe the money, right?

>> You see?

>> Yeah. So

I I think that you could potentially

skip that stage and then um

you know if you take if you take the

perfect structure here here's here's an

ideal structure you raise a billion

dollars you buy Bitcoin and then you go

to the market and you sell $200 million

worth of Treasury preferred credit

instrument treasury preferred stock like Stretch.

Stretch.

>> Yeah. Like if you just wanted the

simplest possible, the equity is high

volume, high performance,

high risk

>> and the credit is low volume.

>> So you have two tools. You have the

common performance and the and the preferred.

preferred.

>> Yeah. Right. And the leverage for the

equity comes from the preferred, >> right?

>> right?

>> And the collateral, right? And you know

for the preferred comes from the equity sale and from the Bitcoin capital,

sale and from the Bitcoin capital, >> right?

>> right? >> And then sell the equity to pay the

>> And then sell the equity to pay the dividend on the preferred.

dividend on the preferred. >> Yeah. So that might be the best kind of

>> Yeah. So that might be the best kind of combination to come out with.

combination to come out with. >> You could very well build a hundred

>> You could very well build a hundred billion dollar company from scratch

billion dollar company from scratch with one credit instrument,

with one credit instrument, >> right?

>> right? >> Just just you. So if you were to say,

>> Just just you. So if you were to say, you know, what would I do? I Yeah, I

you know, what would I do? I Yeah, I would distill kerosene.

would distill kerosene. You're like, is that a big enough

You're like, is that a big enough market?

market? >> It's a big enough market.

>> It's a big enough market. >> Yeah, it's $30 trillion in the US. It's

>> Yeah, it's $30 trillion in the US. It's $7 trillion in Japan.

$7 trillion in Japan. >> Must be $15 trillion.

>> Must be $15 trillion. Right. Basically, ask yourself what is

Right. Basically, ask yourself what is the sum of bank deposits, money market

the sum of bank deposits, money market accounts, treasury preferred, repo,

accounts, treasury preferred, repo, short duration,

short duration, >> yeah,

>> yeah, >> treasury credit instruments in any given

>> treasury credit instruments in any given capital market.

capital market. I would just uh what is the word? like

I would just uh what is the word? like skip all the intermediary steps and go

skip all the intermediary steps and go direct to the answer. Yeah,

direct to the answer. Yeah, >> and my opinion is uh kerosene is the

>> and my opinion is uh kerosene is the answer or in this case treasury credit.

answer or in this case treasury credit. A Bitcoin treasury company

A Bitcoin treasury company is in the unique position to create

is in the unique position to create treasury credit digital credit digital

treasury credit digital credit digital treasury credit. And people are going to

treasury credit. And people are going to they're going to endlessly torture you

they're going to endlessly torture you and say, "Well, why should the equity

and say, "Well, why should the equity trade at a premium?" And the answer is

trade at a premium?" And the answer is because an operating company can create

because an operating company can create digital credit. An ETF cannot. And

digital credit. An ETF cannot. And they're like, well, why would I, you

they're like, well, why would I, you know, a lot of like, well, why would I

know, a lot of like, well, why would I just buy the Bitcoin? It's like, well,

just buy the Bitcoin? It's like, well, I'm not selling to the bit to people

I'm not selling to the bit to people that want Bitcoin. I'm selling to people

that want Bitcoin. I'm selling to people that want 10% bank accounts,

that want 10% bank accounts, >> right?

>> right? >> Do you have a do you have a bank account

>> Do you have a do you have a bank account that yields 10%.

that yields 10%. >> No, but I want one.

>> No, but I want one. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, why don't you just buy

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, why don't you just buy Bitcoin instead? But but and and that

Bitcoin instead? But but and and that basically tears apart the argument of

basically tears apart the argument of the short sellers. Like the reason that

the short sellers. Like the reason that people aren't going to buy Bitcoin is

people aren't going to buy Bitcoin is they don't want Bitcoin. What they want

they don't want Bitcoin. What they want is a bank account that's high yield. In

is a bank account that's high yield. In in Switzerland, they want 10% not 0%. In

in Switzerland, they want 10% not 0%. In Japan, they want 8% not five, you know,

Japan, they want 8% not five, you know, nothing. In Europe, they don't they want

nothing. In Europe, they don't they want more than nothing. Right? So

more than nothing. Right? So the beauty of just focusing upon that

the beauty of just focusing upon that Mark is it's such a simple story.

Mark is it's such a simple story. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> It's like I have a company. We own

>> It's like I have a company. We own Bitcoin as digital capital. We use it to

Bitcoin as digital capital. We use it to back digital credit. We're selling a

back digital credit. We're selling a credit instrument. Oh, what does it do?

credit instrument. Oh, what does it do? Oh, it pays you 5% more than your bank

Oh, it pays you 5% more than your bank account.

account. Do you want it? Of course I want it.

Do you want it? Of course I want it. Right? So what's the objection? The only

Right? So what's the objection? The only objection is is it is the principal

objection is is it is the principal value stable? Right? How volatile is the

value stable? Right? How volatile is the principal? How risky is it?

principal? How risky is it? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> If it's if it's under collolateralized

>> If it's if it's under collolateralized and volatile, you're not going to sell

and volatile, you're not going to sell that much of it. If it's over

that much of it. If it's over collateralized and stable, in theory,

collateralized and stable, in theory, you're going to sell quite a lot.

you're going to sell quite a lot. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Right. And and just that simple. The

>> Right. And and just that simple. The largest IPO in of the year this year in

largest IPO in of the year this year in the United States is Stretch is our IPO.

the United States is Stretch is our IPO. You're asking

You're asking why? Because it's the simplest, most

why? Because it's the simplest, most obvious thing. I'm going to give you

obvious thing. I'm going to give you 10%. Yeah. The biggest ham

10%. Yeah. The biggest ham >> 10%, you know, strip away the risk and

>> 10%, you know, strip away the risk and the volatility.

the volatility. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And like, well, I don't know what'll

>> And like, well, I don't know what'll happen in the future, but I'll just park

happen in the future, but I'll just park my money there until I figure out where

my money there until I figure out where what gives me better than 10%. That's

what gives me better than 10%. That's the idea.

the idea. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And it's a very simple idea, and you can

>> And it's a very simple idea, and you can test it. Just go walk down the street

test it. Just go walk down the street and ask a hundred people, uh, would you

and ask a hundred people, uh, would you like a stable investment that yielded

like a stable investment that yielded 10%, you know, tax deferred?

10%, you know, tax deferred? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. and like of course I would and it's a

and like of course I would and it's a question of do I trust you? Do I trust

question of do I trust you? Do I trust Bitcoin? So you reduce the entire thing

Bitcoin? So you reduce the entire thing down to

down to is Bitcoin am I trusting Bitcoin is the

is Bitcoin am I trusting Bitcoin is the basis

basis you know and do I trust the company?

you know and do I trust the company? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And it's kind of like hey I have this

>> And it's kind of like hey I have this penthouse apartment you know in an

penthouse apartment you know in an island city you know and it's beautiful

island city you know and it's beautiful and it's free. Do you want it? And the

and it's free. Do you want it? And the question is well is the island going to

question is well is the island going to sink underneath the ocean? And do I want

sink underneath the ocean? And do I want to live there?

to live there? >> That's Bitcoin. Is the granite solid?

>> That's Bitcoin. Is the granite solid? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And then, oh yeah, who built the

>> And then, oh yeah, who built the building? And then do the elevators

building? And then do the elevators work? And

work? And >> do I trust them?

>> do I trust them? >> Yeah. Do I trust, you know, do I trust

>> Yeah. Do I trust, you know, do I trust the neighborhood? So, if I get

the neighborhood? So, if I get comfortable with the company and get

comfortable with the company and get Trump comfortable with the local,

Trump comfortable with the local, then of course I want it. It's better

then of course I want it. It's better than my current situation.

than my current situation. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So, it's it's a very straightforward,

>> So, it's it's a very straightforward, constructive thing to focus on. the the

constructive thing to focus on. the the trust piece was the one I was thinking

trust piece was the one I was thinking about if maybe the stretch one takes

about if maybe the stretch one takes more trust and so a strike or strife

more trust and so a strike or strife might be a little bit less trust so

might be a little bit less trust so maybe as a new company easier to roll

maybe as a new company easier to roll out because they're a little bit more

out because they're a little bit more senior in the stack build some track

senior in the stack build some track record and then roll out the stretch I

record and then roll out the stretch I don't think so to tell you the truth

don't think so to tell you the truth I've thought about it a lot I mean to be

I've thought about it a lot I mean to be honest uh we did strike because it was

honest uh we did strike because it was the first thing we thought to do

the first thing we thought to do >> and it it felt like a perpetual

>> and it it felt like a perpetual convertible bond and we were

convertible bond and we were bootstrapping it with existing

bootstrapping it with existing convertible debt investors and existing

convertible debt investors and existing equity investors,

equity investors, you know, and we didn't really have a

you know, and we didn't really have a big base of retail or fixed income

big base of retail or fixed income investors. That's why we did it. It was

investors. That's why we did it. It was a gateway product.

a gateway product. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And it's got a role, but and then we did

>> And it's got a role, but and then we did Strife because it was the next obvious

Strife because it was the next obvious thing we thought of. We we needed a

thing we thought of. We we needed a perpetual instrument and we didn't it

perpetual instrument and we didn't it didn't occur to us we could do anything

didn't occur to us we could do anything variable. So we did the perpetual 10%

variable. So we did the perpetual 10% because that's what we could sell. And

because that's what we could sell. And then after we did it, we did stride

then after we did it, we did stride because we thought, well, if we strip

because we thought, well, if we strip away the cumulative rights, then this

away the cumulative rights, then this instrument potentially gives us

instrument potentially gives us unlimited leverage risk-free. Like we

unlimited leverage risk-free. Like we could in theory sell a hundred billion

could in theory sell a hundred billion dollars of it with no credit risk,

dollars of it with no credit risk, >> right?

>> right? >> So you know why not? And because we'd

>> So you know why not? And because we'd already sold Strife and Strife and

already sold Strife and Strife and Strike were already successful. They'd

Strike were already successful. They'd already traded above par, it wasn't a

already traded above par, it wasn't a hard thing to sell the identical

hard thing to sell the identical instrument at a 30% discount to the

instrument at a 30% discount to the thing that people already owned, right?

thing that people already owned, right? You see,

You see, >> yeah,

>> yeah, >> we did stretch because we ran into a

>> we did stretch because we ran into a bunch of other headaches trying to

bunch of other headaches trying to trying to globalize the first three.

trying to globalize the first three. It's just the lawyers are slow, the

It's just the lawyers are slow, the regulators are slow. I thought what can

regulators are slow. I thought what can I do in the US market which is not uh

I do in the US market which is not uh going to cannibalize

going to cannibalize those. I thought well I'm on the far of

those. I thought well I'm on the far of the yield curve. Let's go to the short

the yield curve. Let's go to the short end of the yield curve right the short

end of the yield curve right the short end of the duration curve. So we kind of

end of the duration curve. So we kind of stumbled on it accidentally and then as

stumbled on it accidentally and then as we iterated through it we realized that

we iterated through it we realized that it really was you know a better product

it really was you know a better product and that's what people really wanted. So

and that's what people really wanted. So a lot of people that were buying the

a lot of people that were buying the other instruments, they were buying the

other instruments, they were buying the high yield, but they were getting the

high yield, but they were getting the duration, not because they wanted it.

duration, not because they wanted it. They wanted like, do you want the 12%

They wanted like, do you want the 12% with the risk that that the principle

with the risk that that the principle will move up and down or you just want

will move up and down or you just want 12%.

12%. >> Right.

>> Right. >> I just want the 12%. Right. See, so they

>> I just want the 12%. Right. See, so they were buying it, but

were buying it, but >> they were stomaching the volatility

>> they were stomaching the volatility because they wanted the yield.

because they wanted the yield. >> Yeah. Yeah. You took the delta, you took

>> Yeah. Yeah. You took the delta, you took the V because you wanted the yield. So

the V because you wanted the yield. So with stretch, we stripped away the

with stretch, we stripped away the delta. stripped away the y the va kept

delta. stripped away the y the va kept the yield.

the yield. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And so I think that it's a simpler

>> And so I think that it's a simpler product. It's, you know, look, it's a

product. It's, you know, look, it's a bank account. If you put in $99.99,

bank account. If you put in $99.99, you'll get back down to the last penny.

you'll get back down to the last penny. With a money market, you know, you

With a money market, you know, you expect to get back down to like one

expect to get back down to like one significant digit past the decimal point

significant digit past the decimal point or something very close. may not be the

or something very close. may not be the last penny, but it's, you know, plus or

last penny, but it's, you know, plus or minus, you know, a small rounding error.

minus, you know, a small rounding error. With a product that's a preferred stock

With a product that's a preferred stock that's trading, you know, you're not

that's trading, you know, you're not looking to get to the sixth significant

looking to get to the sixth significant digit or the third decimal point,

digit or the third decimal point, but um you want to be plus or minus, you

but um you want to be plus or minus, you know, 10, 20, 30, 50 basis points.

know, 10, 20, 30, 50 basis points. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> You don't want to be varying by one or

>> You don't want to be varying by one or two percent. You want to be varying by

two percent. You want to be varying by fractions of a percent. And what you

fractions of a percent. And what you offer in return is okay, I'll give you

offer in return is okay, I'll give you 5% more yield. And and that is just

5% more yield. And and that is just slightly more it's it's more flexible

slightly more it's it's more flexible than a money market. And you got to go

than a money market. And you got to go into that. It's not a money market. You

into that. It's not a money market. You got to go into it with your eyes open

got to go into it with your eyes open that that money markets are trying not

that that money markets are trying not to break the buck, you know, at all. But

to break the buck, you know, at all. But uh on the other hand, you're targeting

uh on the other hand, you're targeting something that pays double.

something that pays double. >> Yeah. So the yield's going to make up

>> Yeah. So the yield's going to make up for that long.

for that long. >> So how you know we're we're giving you a

>> So how you know we're we're giving you a competitive money market that pays

competitive money market that pays double.

double. That will get everybody's attention.

That will get everybody's attention. That's a simple discussion. Also, I mean

That's a simple discussion. Also, I mean the truth of the matter is it's easier

the truth of the matter is it's easier to judge whether it's successful or not.

to judge whether it's successful or not. for for example, you know, stretch has

for for example, you know, stretch has marched from 90 up to 97 and some change

marched from 90 up to 97 and some change now and you know the target is 100 and

now and you know the target is 100 and when it gets to 100, you know, if it

when it gets to 100, you know, if it were to jerk up to 105 or down to 95,

were to jerk up to 105 or down to 95, you know it's not working. But if you

you know it's not working. But if you look at strike or you look at strife,

look at strike or you look at strife, those things could tra if if the

those things could tra if if the interest rates fall 100 basis points,

interest rates fall 100 basis points, strife could trade up 10 or 20%.

strife could trade up 10 or 20%. And that that's not because it's

And that that's not because it's failing,

failing, >> right?

>> right? >> You know, and if you know when Jerome

>> You know, and if you know when Jerome Powell gives a speech and says, you

Powell gives a speech and says, you know, I don't I don't really think we're

know, I don't I don't really think we're going to lower interest rates as fast,

going to lower interest rates as fast, you know, so strife trades down

you know, so strife trades down three, four, five dollars 10. It could

three, four, five dollars 10. It could trade quite a bit because of what Jerome

trade quite a bit because of what Jerome Pal said. That's not a failure of our

Pal said. That's not a failure of our instrument. You see,

instrument. You see, >> right? But you understand how much more

>> right? But you understand how much more complicated it is to explain that strife

complicated it is to explain that strife reacted uh rationally to the forward

reacted uh rationally to the forward yield curve expectations

yield curve expectations >> right whereas with stretch I don't have

>> right whereas with stretch I don't have to with stretch everybody knows the

to with stretch everybody knows the mission it's like we're pegging it to be

mission it's like we're pegging it to be between 99 and 101 like we're targeting

between 99 and 101 like we're targeting for 99 to 101 and the way you'll know

for 99 to 101 and the way you'll know that it's in the range is where it's

that it's in the range is where it's between 99 and 101 yeah right and when

between 99 and 101 yeah right and when you

you >> success is defined

>> success is defined >> like my My goal for strife is I want to

>> like my My goal for strife is I want to see a trade to 150 or 200. Right? You

see a trade to 150 or 200. Right? You can imagine a world where strife is way

can imagine a world where strife is way over collateralized. The risk-free rate

over collateralized. The risk-free rate in the US is 2%. We have a 300 basis

in the US is 2%. We have a 300 basis point credit spread. Strife trades with

point credit spread. Strife trades with an effective yield of 5% which means it

an effective yield of 5% which means it should trade at 200. You see

should trade at 200. You see >> that's success for that. But you

>> that's success for that. But you understand how much more complicated

understand how much more complicated that is,

that is, >> right?

>> right? >> Because what if it gets to 200? Well,

>> Because what if it gets to 200? Well, we're going to be paying an effective

we're going to be paying an effective yield of 5%. We'll be selling at 200,

yield of 5%. We'll be selling at 200, but now what happens if you buy it at

but now what happens if you buy it at 200 and interest rates get jacked 2% and

200 and interest rates get jacked 2% and it trades down to 160.

it trades down to 160. Did it work? Yeah, exactly as designed.

Did it work? Yeah, exactly as designed. Is some is a retiree going to be I

Is some is a retiree going to be I rateate? Yeah. Like wait, I I got 5%

rateate? Yeah. Like wait, I I got 5% more, 3% more, but it traded down 20% or

more, 3% more, but it traded down 20% or something and that's not what I signed

something and that's not what I signed up for. Do you understand that looks

up for. Do you understand that looks scary?

scary? >> Yeah. Those long duration high delta

>> Yeah. Those long duration high delta high high duration high delta

high high duration high delta instruments look scary. They're very

instruments look scary. They're very exciting for people that are

exciting for people that are professional investors. But we're we

professional investors. But we're we talked about the iPhone moment. I mean

talked about the iPhone moment. I mean it's it's it's iPhone is kind of maybe

it's it's it's iPhone is kind of maybe not even the perfect metaphor. I mean

not even the perfect metaphor. I mean the perfect metaphor is a comfortable

the perfect metaphor is a comfortable retirement.

retirement. It's like you pick up the phone and call

It's like you pick up the phone and call your dad and you say hey dad you know

your dad and you say hey dad you know you have some capital in your 401k you

you have some capital in your 401k you put in a stretch. It was paying you

put in a stretch. It was paying you 32,000 a year. You put in a stretch is

32,000 a year. You put in a stretch is going to pay you 125,000 a year.

going to pay you 125,000 a year. What's the risk? Okay. Well, there's no

What's the risk? Okay. Well, there's no risk. Yeah.

risk. Yeah. >> I mean, there's risk, you know, of a

>> I mean, there's risk, you know, of a security, but the point is,

security, but the point is, >> you know, it looks like it's 8x over

>> you know, it looks like it's 8x over collateralized or 5x over

collateralized or 5x over collateralized, which is more than

collateralized, which is more than investment grade companies offer you,

investment grade companies offer you, right?

right? >> So, it's investment grade comparable

>> So, it's investment grade comparable risk.

risk. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> If you believe in Bitcoin, if you hate

>> If you believe in Bitcoin, if you hate Bitcoin, Dad, don't take it. Yeah. Yeah,

Bitcoin, Dad, don't take it. Yeah. Yeah, >> but if you think the Bitcoin is okay, I

>> but if you think the Bitcoin is okay, I can jack your retirement income from

can jack your retirement income from 30,000 to 120,000 if you do this.

30,000 to 120,000 if you do this. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Well, what do I have to do? Nothing.

>> Well, what do I have to do? Nothing. >> Just buy it in your equity or brokerage

>> Just buy it in your equity or brokerage account.

account. >> You know, like a lot of 80 year olds

>> You know, like a lot of 80 year olds don't use an iPhone, right? A lot of

don't use an iPhone, right? A lot of senior citizens have a hard time using

senior citizens have a hard time using technology.

technology. No one has a hard time collecting a

No one has a hard time collecting a pension.

pension. So what we're really talking about is

So what we're really talking about is creating a living stipend or creating a

creating a living stipend or creating a annuity or a pension. And so what's the

annuity or a pension. And so what's the offer is like happily ever after to it's

offer is like happily ever after to it's social security. That's the product for

social security. That's the product for how many people? Like a billion like

how many people? Like a billion like everybody, right? It's it's basically

everybody, right? It's it's basically social security and living happily ever

social security and living happily ever after for a billion people. What do I

after for a billion people. What do I got to do? All you got to do is just a

got to do? All you got to do is just a understand Bitcoin and trust it. And

understand Bitcoin and trust it. And then b you got to trust the company or

then b you got to trust the company or the security that you're buying. But

the security that you're buying. But once you get over those two those two

once you get over those two those two barriers, what' you get? It's like how

barriers, what' you get? It's like how many people would like their salary to

many people would like their salary to go from $30,000 to $100,000 a year.

go from $30,000 to $100,000 a year. >> Everyone

>> Everyone >> you So you understand why I would say

>> you So you understand why I would say that's the simplest product to sell.

that's the simplest product to sell. >> Yeah. because it's like the other ones

>> Yeah. because it's like the other ones lead you down a path of explaining

lead you down a path of explaining conversion rights and delta and duration

conversion rights and delta and duration interest rate risk and it's just you

interest rate risk and it's just you know and and the like and and what

know and and the like and and what happens if the central bankers say this

happens if the central bankers say this and do that and you might get this boost

and do that and you might get this boost but you might not get that and it's like

but you might not get that and it's like it's a lot more complicated

it's a lot more complicated >> and if you create something which is

>> and if you create something which is simple that means you'll sell 10 to 100

simple that means you'll sell 10 to 100 times as much of it right but if it's

times as much of it right but if it's 100 times as as much you sold it's going

100 times as as much you sold it's going to be 100 times as liquid

to be 100 times as liquid >> if it's liquid it means you get in and

>> if it's liquid it means you get in and you get out, right? So, what we're

you get out, right? So, what we're trying to do is that means there's less

trying to do is that means there's less volatility. So, at the end of the day,

volatility. So, at the end of the day, the simple universal product that

the simple universal product that everybody needs that's the most liquid

everybody needs that's the most liquid with the highest aum,

with the highest aum, you see, my my criticism of the

you see, my my criticism of the preferred stock market and the corporate

preferred stock market and the corporate bond market is is

bond market is is they were never trying to create good

they were never trying to create good credit. It was always crippled credit.

credit. It was always crippled credit. It's like there why doesn't a big bank

It's like there why doesn't a big bank have a hundred billion dollar worth of a

have a hundred billion dollar worth of a single preferred instrument with a

single preferred instrument with a four-letter ticker that trades five

four-letter ticker that trades five billion a day with a bid ass spread of a

billion a day with a bid ass spread of a penny

penny because because they never really wanted

because because they never really wanted to create a good credit instrument. They

to create a good credit instrument. They they created, you know, 97 tranches of

they created, you know, 97 tranches of rolling debt issuances. It's it's an

rolling debt issuances. It's it's an it's a traditional market, an insider

it's a traditional market, an insider game they play with themsel. There is a

game they play with themsel. There is a a set of traditional investors and a set

a set of traditional investors and a set of traditional bankers and a set of

of traditional bankers and a set of traditional issuers and a set of a

traditional issuers and a set of a traditional mode and they're all

traditional mode and they're all basically

basically they're going through this hyper

they're going through this hyper inefficient process.

inefficient process. Whereas when we created these

Whereas when we created these instruments like stretch, you know, ask

instruments like stretch, you know, ask me what I want. I want to sell $50

me what I want. I want to sell $50 billion of it. I want I want 50 billion

billion of it. I want I want 50 billion with two billion, three bill I want it

with two billion, three bill I want it to be the largest, you know, outstanding

to be the largest, you know, outstanding preferred stock issued in the history of

preferred stock issued in the history of the world. And already these four credit

the world. And already these four credit instruments, they're already the most

instruments, they're already the most liquid preferred stocks of the century.

liquid preferred stocks of the century. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And that's in the first few months of

>> And that's in the first few months of their life. Imagine what happens three

their life. Imagine what happens three to five years from now after we've

to five years from now after we've actually sold via the ATM every single

actually sold via the ATM every single month

month >> for the next 36 months.

>> for the next 36 months. >> Yeah. The difference is as you said

>> Yeah. The difference is as you said before like Boeing they're taking debt

before like Boeing they're taking debt to build their product and so a bank or

to build their product and so a bank or Boeing they're not trying to make the

Boeing they're not trying to make the credit it's not the product so it's not

credit it's not the product so it's not attractive whereas you want to sell the

attractive whereas you want to sell the credit as the products you're trying to

credit as the products you're trying to make it to reach the biggest addressable

make it to reach the biggest addressable market. And if you look at in the

market. And if you look at in the developed world, we have 250 million

developed world, we have 250 million retirees, right? And they all want the

retirees, right? And they all want the yield with no volatility. So the TAM,

yield with no volatility. So the TAM, the total adjustable market is massive.

the total adjustable market is massive. As you've explained, the profit margin

As you've explained, the profit margin for you to create that product is also

for you to create that product is also big. It's simple. The market's big. Um,

big. It's simple. The market's big. Um, >> you see what breaks people's brains

>> you see what breaks people's brains though because

though because they think

they think of credit issuance as a mean to the end,

of credit issuance as a mean to the end, and the end is tax arbitrage at Apple.

and the end is tax arbitrage at Apple. It's it's it's uh you know leveraging M

It's it's it's uh you know leveraging M Microsoft stock right at if you look at

Microsoft stock right at if you look at all the big well-run companies in the

all the big well-run companies in the world they're solving a tax issue a

world they're solving a tax issue a shareholder rel they're trying to

shareholder rel they're trying to improve the quality of their equity or

improve the quality of their equity or their EPS performance or they're or

their EPS performance or they're or they're building airplanes or they're

they're building airplanes or they're building buildings or they're developing

building buildings or they're developing skyscrapers, right? It's it's a means to

skyscrapers, right? It's it's a means to the end or it's like the bank is they're

the end or it's like the bank is they're not bragging about issuing the world's

not bragging about issuing the world's greatest preferred stock. They did it

greatest preferred stock. They did it because they have to for like tier one

because they have to for like tier one capital mezzanine capital allocations so

capital mezzanine capital allocations so that they can make commercial loans so

that they can make commercial loans so that they can do something else. Right?

that they can do something else. Right? So, what we stumbled upon in the Bitcoin

So, what we stumbled upon in the Bitcoin Treasury business is we just realized

Treasury business is we just realized that if you were the first well-run

that if you were the first well-run company

company that actually thought of credit as the

that actually thought of credit as the product,

product, then the the killer application of

then the the killer application of Bitcoin and the kill the killer

Bitcoin and the kill the killer application of capital is to issue

application of capital is to issue credit and the killer application of

credit and the killer application of Bitcoin is to issue digital credit. And

Bitcoin is to issue digital credit. And now if you look at the at these things

now if you look at the at these things that were languishing, any public

that were languishing, any public company in the US can issue a preferred

company in the US can issue a preferred stock. Most just choose not to. When's

stock. Most just choose not to. When's the last time you bought a preferred

the last time you bought a preferred stock from Microsoft? Microsoft in

stock from Microsoft? Microsoft in theory could give you a 10% yielding

theory could give you a 10% yielding preferred stock, but could you imagine

preferred stock, but could you imagine discussing that or pitching it to the

discussing that or pitching it to the CFO? They're like, "Are you out of your

CFO? They're like, "Are you out of your mind?"

mind?" >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Why would we do that? Right. And so

>> Why would we do that? Right. And so most companies in the US they could have

most companies in the US they could have but it was never really a mean it was

but it was never really a mean it was never strategic to them. Uh the ATM

never strategic to them. Uh the ATM was developed I think by Michael Milin

was developed I think by Michael Milin many many years ago the at the market

many many years ago the at the market shelf registration but you know if you

shelf registration but you know if you were to go to Microsoft or Apple or

were to go to Microsoft or Apple or Google or Amazon or Meta and say hey

Google or Amazon or Meta and say hey what do you guys think about selling

what do you guys think about selling your own equity? They're like are you

your own equity? They're like are you out of your mind? We buy our equity. We

out of your mind? We buy our equity. We don't

don't >> the money. Yeah.

>> the money. Yeah. >> We have no use of the money. We don't

>> We have no use of the money. We don't have a use of capital. Okay. Well, you

have a use of capital. Okay. Well, you could issue credit instruments but at

could issue credit instruments but at the market. Well, we don't want to issue

the market. Well, we don't want to issue credit instruments.

credit instruments. And so what we did is we took existing

And so what we did is we took existing ATM, applied it to a preferred stock,

ATM, applied it to a preferred stock, paired it with a a radical different

paired it with a a radical different view toward treasury capital. We

view toward treasury capital. We inverted the company, inverted the

inverted the company, inverted the balance sheet, inverted the business

balance sheet, inverted the business model, right? We're selling credit.

model, right? We're selling credit. That's literally what we do. We credit

That's literally what we do. We credit is the product. We create it. We

is the product. We create it. We engineer the product,

engineer the product, right? Then we issue the product.

right? Then we issue the product. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> We use the proceeds to build the capital

>> We use the proceeds to build the capital structure which then thereby

structure which then thereby boosts the performance of the equity.

boosts the performance of the equity. Right. the the elegance of it. It really

Right. the the elegance of it. It really is a symmetric thing of beauty.

is a symmetric thing of beauty. We're selling US dollar yield, USD yield

We're selling US dollar yield, USD yield to create BTC yield,

to create BTC yield, >> right? That's the swap, right? The

>> right? That's the swap, right? The equity investors value the company based

equity investors value the company based on BTC yield, the appreciation of

on BTC yield, the appreciation of Bitcoin per share. Credit investors

Bitcoin per share. Credit investors value the credit this the credit

value the credit this the credit security based upon USD yield.

security based upon USD yield. And so just swapping a fiat yield, a a

And so just swapping a fiat yield, a a yen, a euro, a US dollar yield for a BTC

yen, a euro, a US dollar yield for a BTC yield

yield with the Bitcoin as the collateral on

with the Bitcoin as the collateral on the middle is the business, you know,

the middle is the business, you know, and the and the skeptics and the cynics,

and the and the skeptics and the cynics, they choose to be strategically

they choose to be strategically ignorant, you know. It's like like a a

ignorant, you know. It's like like a a hater. I I don't want to understand the

hater. I I don't want to understand the business because I might have to agree

business because I might have to agree with you. So, if I've already decided I

with you. So, if I've already decided I hate you, I don't want you to explain

hate you, I don't want you to explain why what you're doing is going to save

why what you're doing is going to save the world or help anybody or or help the

the world or help anybody or or help the shareholders. I just don't want it. No,

shareholders. I just don't want it. No, I'm going to choose to stick my head in

I'm going to choose to stick my head in the sand and be ignorant.

the sand and be ignorant. But uh but if you're more open-minded

But uh but if you're more open-minded about the entire thing

about the entire thing and you just embrace the idea that this

and you just embrace the idea that this is a new kind of company, a a new it's

is a new kind of company, a a new it's not a bank because it doesn't it's not

not a bank because it doesn't it's not regulated. It doesn't take consumer and

regulated. It doesn't take consumer and and commercial deposits. It's not that

and commercial deposits. It's not that kind of bank. It is a financial kind of

kind of bank. It is a financial kind of company,

company, right? And it's a new form of company.

right? And it's a new form of company. There are banks, there are insurance

There are banks, there are insurance companies, you know, etc. So a treasury

companies, you know, etc. So a treasury company is a company that issues

company is a company that issues securities

securities in order to acquire capital. Now a

in order to acquire capital. Now a commodity really you're issuing

commodity really you're issuing securities to buy a commodity and if you

securities to buy a commodity and if you pick a commodity that happen to be

pick a commodity that happen to be scarce

scarce you create a a very powerful feedback

you create a a very powerful feedback loop right work through your mind if I

loop right work through your mind if I if I do this on Bitcoin going up 50% a

if I do this on Bitcoin going up 50% a year I can easily pay 10% capture the

year I can easily pay 10% capture the 40% spread

40% spread that is an amplifier

that is an amplifier >> if I issued the credit to buy soybeans

>> if I issued the credit to buy soybeans >> yeah without the kar doesn't Yeah.

>> yeah without the kar doesn't Yeah. >> Or natural gas or crude oil or some

>> Or natural gas or crude oil or some other you know commodity that returns 3

other you know commodity that returns 3 5% anything less than the cost of the

5% anything less than the cost of the credit then I've run the feedback loop

credit then I've run the feedback loop in the opposite direction. I'm

in the opposite direction. I'm destroying capital as fast as I can. The

destroying capital as fast as I can. The business is not really much more

business is not really much more complicated than that. It's just no

complicated than that. It's just no one's ever seen it before which is why

one's ever seen it before which is why people just have a hard time getting

people just have a hard time getting their head around it

their head around it >> and if they don't believe in Bitcoin.

>> and if they don't believe in Bitcoin. Now, you've talked about the different

Now, you've talked about the different preferreds and how even just one could

preferreds and how even just one could work and it gives you leverage. And in

work and it gives you leverage. And in the in the last quarterly report, which

the in the last quarterly report, which are brilliant, by the way, you're

are brilliant, by the way, you're changing the industry with that. It's

changing the industry with that. It's great. Um, you showed several slides of

great. Um, you showed several slides of this Bitcoin factor, which is like this

this Bitcoin factor, which is like this amplification of Bitcoin. And so, by

amplification of Bitcoin. And so, by doing the preferred, you're adding the

doing the preferred, you're adding the leverage, which then over time use a

leverage, which then over time use a 10-year window, it can give you a

10-year window, it can give you a Bitcoin factor of 2.8 to right,

Bitcoin factor of 2.8 to right, >> you know, five, six, whatever. Does that

>> you know, five, six, whatever. Does that number sort of relate into this MNAV

number sort of relate into this MNAV number over a long period of time and

number over a long period of time and sort of justify or show why that MNAV

sort of justify or show why that MNAV number should be greater than two or

number should be greater than two or three or four?

three or four? >> Yeah. So if you think about think about

>> Yeah. So if you think about think about the value of the equity over and above

the value of the equity over and above net asset value. Um if the company did

net asset value. Um if the company did nothing, if it just bought Bitcoin and

nothing, if it just bought Bitcoin and held Bitcoin um forever, it starts to

held Bitcoin um forever, it starts to look like an ETF. probably it trades

look like an ETF. probably it trades around NAV,

around NAV, >> right?

>> right? >> Um the the way that a company generates

>> Um the the way that a company generates a premium to NAV is primarily through

a premium to NAV is primarily through credit amplification.

credit amplification. So if a company can generate say 30%

So if a company can generate say 30% leverage,

leverage, then it's going to create an amplifier

then it's going to create an amplifier because

because you can see systemically I issue a

you can see systemically I issue a billion dollars of a preferred stock

billion dollars of a preferred stock paying 10%. I buy a billion of Bitcoin,

paying 10%. I buy a billion of Bitcoin, right? If if I've if I own a billion

right? If if I've if I own a billion dollars of Bitcoin already and I was

dollars of Bitcoin already and I was able to do that trade, I'd have $2

able to do that trade, I'd have $2 billion of Bitcoin, no additional common

billion of Bitcoin, no additional common stock outstanding,

stock outstanding, you know, so you end up with 50%

you know, so you end up with 50% leverage on that. So you start to

leverage on that. So you start to generate amplification.

generate amplification. Now

Now there we have models to calculate how

there we have models to calculate how accreative that is. How does that

accreative that is. How does that contribute to Bitcoin per share? And it

contribute to Bitcoin per share? And it turns out that um it's more accreative

turns out that um it's more accreative uh but this won't come as a surprise.

uh but this won't come as a surprise. It's more accreative if the cost of

It's more accreative if the cost of capital falls. For example, raising the

capital falls. For example, raising the 10 billion at 5% instead of 10% is more

10 billion at 5% instead of 10% is more accreative, right? Raising it at 1%.

accreative, right? Raising it at 1%. Imagine borrowing a billion dollars at

Imagine borrowing a billion dollars at 1% and buying Bitcoin at that returns

1% and buying Bitcoin at that returns 55%. You're capturing 54% spread, right?

55%. You're capturing 54% spread, right? So the spread that you're capturing is a

So the spread that you're capturing is a function of your cost to capital. So the

function of your cost to capital. So the lower the cost of capital, the more the

lower the cost of capital, the more the amplification. The higher the leverage,

amplification. The higher the leverage, the more the amplification.

the more the amplification. The faster if if you did all that, the

The faster if if you did all that, the Bitcoin went up 0% a year.

Bitcoin went up 0% a year. It's not terribly. You don't get a lot

It's not terribly. You don't get a lot of good amplification, right? So if

of good amplification, right? So if Bitcoin goes up 50% a year, right? Uh

Bitcoin goes up 50% a year, right? Uh that's more amplification. So the rate

that's more amplification. So the rate of growth of Bitcoin, the AR of Bitcoin

of growth of Bitcoin, the AR of Bitcoin plus the leverage plus the cost of

plus the leverage plus the cost of capital, all those are primary factors

capital, all those are primary factors that drive the amplification.

that drive the amplification. Then as a rule of thumb, you know, we

Then as a rule of thumb, you know, we kind of calculated that, you know,

kind of calculated that, you know, assuming Bitcoin appreciates 30% a year

assuming Bitcoin appreciates 30% a year and we get 30% leverage, then we should

and we get 30% leverage, then we should be able to get a 3x BTC factor or we can

be able to get a 3x BTC factor or we can accumulate three times more Bitcoin per

accumulate three times more Bitcoin per share over a 10-year time frame. So you

share over a 10-year time frame. So you could imagine a an MNAV floor of three

could imagine a an MNAV floor of three right makes sense or you know how what

right makes sense or you know how what do you do in percentage or you do that a

do you do in percentage or you do that a factor and you know for when you're

factor and you know for when you're evaluating a company the question is how

evaluating a company the question is how high can they take the leverage how much

high can they take the leverage how much is it going to cost them there's second

is it going to cost them there's second order effects like credit risk right so

order effects like credit risk right so I'm describing perpetual instrument

I'm describing perpetual instrument never comes through there is no credit

never comes through there is no credit risk there but if you were if you were

risk there but if you were if you were achieving that leverage with a six-month

achieving that leverage with a six-month loan phone,

loan phone, >> right?

>> right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Right. You can go on a exchange and you

>> Right. You can go on a exchange and you can actually crank up the leverage to

can actually crank up the leverage to three or four or five,

three or four or five, >> but the duration is instant, right? You

>> but the duration is instant, right? You get force liquidated overnight. When

get force liquidated overnight. When we're when we're managing the business,

we're when we're managing the business, we're constructing credit amplification

we're constructing credit amplification in the most intelligent way. And of

in the most intelligent way. And of course, in my opinion, uh the least

course, in my opinion, uh the least risky, most intelligent way to create

risky, most intelligent way to create credit amplification is through publicly

credit amplification is through publicly issued preferred stocks that are

issued preferred stocks that are perpetual.

perpetual. >> Right.

>> Right. >> Right. For the obvious reason, you never

>> Right. For the obvious reason, you never refinance them. The principal doesn't

refinance them. The principal doesn't come due. And so the risk on the

come due. And so the risk on the principal is dimminimous. And then the

principal is dimminimous. And then the dividends, you know, are are subject to

dividends, you know, are are subject to the approval of the board of directors

the approval of the board of directors and the company can suspend the dividend

and the company can suspend the dividend or delay it for a time under financial

or delay it for a time under financial duress. And so the the the coupon risk

duress. And so the the the coupon risk is dimminimous as well as the principal

is dimminimous as well as the principal risk. The opposite extreme is a one-year

risk. The opposite extreme is a one-year senior loan. Pledge the collateral of

senior loan. Pledge the collateral of Bitcoin. Pay off the principal in one

Bitcoin. Pay off the principal in one year. And pay interest every month as a

year. And pay interest every month as a coupon. Miss the interest in a month,

coupon. Miss the interest in a month, you're in default. Miss the principal,

you're in default. Miss the principal, delay it, you're in default. Miss the

delay it, you're in default. Miss the principal, you're in default. And the

principal, you're in default. And the collateral gets ripped away and the

collateral gets ripped away and the entire company collapses. Right. So

entire company collapses. Right. So intelligent leverage,

intelligent leverage, unintelligent risky leverage, right? You

unintelligent risky leverage, right? You want to go for one, not the other.

want to go for one, not the other. >> So you think it sets a in in that

>> So you think it sets a in in that example and as you said, there's three

example and as you said, there's three different factors in there, but that's

different factors in there, but that's sort of in that in that example that set

sort of in that in that example that set a MNAV number about a three times.

a MNAV number about a three times. >> When you look at other h assetheavy

>> When you look at other h assetheavy companies, banking, insurance, oil, they

companies, banking, insurance, oil, they kind of trade in that one to two times.

kind of trade in that one to two times. But you think because this is not oiled

But you think because this is not oiled as an asset that's got this 50 times or

as an asset that's got this 50 times or call it a 30 times um Kaggar over this

call it a 30 times um Kaggar over this long period of time then

long period of time then >> I I I would stop there and I would say

>> I I I would stop there and I would say MNAB is just priceto book value.

MNAB is just priceto book value. Okay. Well-run banks trade at a price to

Okay. Well-run banks trade at a price to book north of two.

book north of two. But what is Microsoft's price to book

But what is Microsoft's price to book value, right?

value, right? >> It's like 20.

>> It's like 20. >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> 10. So a lot of companies trade at a

>> 10. So a lot of companies trade at a price to book five, six, seven, eight,

price to book five, six, seven, eight, 10. Right. Like they they have very

10. Right. Like they they have very productive capital, right? They have

productive capital, right? They have huge leverage on it. Right.

huge leverage on it. Right. >> Right. So MNAV an MNAV of three is just

>> Right. So MNAV an MNAV of three is just a price to book of three.

a price to book of three. >> Right.

>> Right. >> So you know how do you get there? There

>> So you know how do you get there? There it's it's simple to figure out how you

it's it's simple to figure out how you get there. For example, if you have um

get there. For example, if you have um $10 billion of Bitcoin

$10 billion of Bitcoin and you sell $10 billion worth of Stride

and you sell $10 billion worth of Stride STD,

STD, you would have a leverage factor of 50%.

you would have a leverage factor of 50%. >> Right.

>> Right. >> No credit risk.

>> No credit risk. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Right. So, you'd sell another

>> Right. Right. So, you'd sell another five of stride, right? If you can sell

five of stride, right? If you can sell it, right? This all comes down to not

it, right? This all comes down to not should you

should you >> can you

>> can you >> can you Yeah.

>> can you Yeah. >> Right. Not should you and and if you do

>> Right. Not should you and and if you do you will get there. Right. If in that

you will get there. Right. If in that particular case it all comes down to

particular case it all comes down to what kind of credit can you issue and um

what kind of credit can you issue and um and under what terms and how rapidly?

and under what terms and how rapidly? >> So at 50% leverage with no credit risk.

>> So at 50% leverage with no credit risk. I mean then there's a five times right.

I mean then there's a five times right. >> Yeah. You could get to have a five or

>> Yeah. You could get to have a five or you could be priced to book a five,

you could be priced to book a five, right? But but ask yourself the

right? But but ask yourself the question, how do banks get to a price to

question, how do banks get to a price to book more than one

book more than one >> leverage?

>> leverage? >> Right.

>> Right. >> Right. By why do preferred stocks exist

>> Right. By why do preferred stocks exist at all? So banks can generate leverage

at all? So banks can generate leverage on the common.

on the common. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Right. And so everything I'm describing

>> Right. And so everything I'm describing is is not we didn't invent that.

is is not we didn't invent that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> There's 5,000 banks in the country right

>> There's 5,000 banks in the country right now. There are 25,000 banks a 100 years

now. There are 25,000 banks a 100 years ago. Thousands and thousands of banks

ago. Thousands and thousands of banks and thou, you know, all sorts of finance

and thou, you know, all sorts of finance companies. They generate intelligent

companies. They generate intelligent leverage using various um various tiers

leverage using various um various tiers of equity capital.

of equity capital. >> Mezzanine equity, preferred equity,

>> Mezzanine equity, preferred equity, senior preferred, junior preferred,

senior preferred, junior preferred, little bit of debt and then they got

little bit of debt and then they got common equity.

common equity. Then the question is so why I mean why

Then the question is so why I mean why does why does your favorite bank have to

does why does your favorite bank have to issue anything at all? They're the bank.

issue anything at all? They're the bank. And the answer is because they're

And the answer is because they're actually creating equity on the they're

actually creating equity on the they're generating leverage on the common,

generating leverage on the common, >> right?

>> right? >> That's all. I mean JP Morgan all these

>> That's all. I mean JP Morgan all these they could basically pay off all their

they could basically pay off all their debt if they wanted

debt if they wanted but the point is they're they're trying

but the point is they're they're trying to create leverage on the common to give

to create leverage on the common to give the common stock value. So the only

the common stock value. So the only difference is

difference is they're not really strategic about their

they're not really strategic about their not trying to make their credit

not trying to make their credit instruments the best in the world and

instruments the best in the world and brag about it and make them homogeneous

brag about it and make them homogeneous and transparent.

and transparent. >> We are.

>> We are. >> Right.

>> Right. >> Right.

>> Right. >> Yeah. They're trying to set the terms

>> Yeah. They're trying to set the terms for them. You're trying to set the terms

for them. You're trying to set the terms for the customer. So, it's like a

for the customer. So, it's like a different different

different different >> different there product there. You talk

>> different there product there. You talk about um the common I remember in Prague

about um the common I remember in Prague you talked about you gave a vivid

you talked about you gave a vivid example how um how MSTR trades as a

example how um how MSTR trades as a volatility to Bitcoin and everybody

volatility to Bitcoin and everybody wants it to trade volatility to Bitcoin.

wants it to trade volatility to Bitcoin. And you gave this example that if God

And you gave this example that if God came and spoke to you tonight and told

came and spoke to you tonight and told you the market was going to crash

you the market was going to crash tomorrow and you woke up and hedged your

tomorrow and you woke up and hedged your position and the market crashed but

position and the market crashed but Micro didn't go down, that'd be great.

Micro didn't go down, that'd be great. and you said no that wouldn't because

and you said no that wouldn't because the market expects us to move

the market expects us to move >> right

>> right >> with Bitcoin and I and I think you were

>> with Bitcoin and I and I think you were trying to explain to us during that

trying to explain to us during that during that is that sort of when the

during that is that sort of when the company is lean and sort of strips down

company is lean and sort of strips down it can trade volatility to Bitcoin and

it can trade volatility to Bitcoin and so I'm curious your take on sort of then

so I'm curious your take on sort of then um having like that pure play um company

um having like that pure play um company versus a company that's like an a big

versus a company that's like an a big underlying business um that has a

underlying business um that has a Bitcoin um treasury and how that then

Bitcoin um treasury and how that then maybe maybe potentially takes that

maybe maybe potentially takes that common away from really being used like

common away from really being used like in the ATM. Sort of almost neutralizes

in the ATM. Sort of almost neutralizes that part of the tool.

that part of the tool. >> Yeah. So, you can have an operating

>> Yeah. So, you can have an operating company uh that has cash flows that uses

company uh that has cash flows that uses Bitcoin as a treasury asset. Um if it's

Bitcoin as a treasury asset. Um if it's a retailer, if it's a utility company, a

a retailer, if it's a utility company, a power company, a water company, a you

power company, a water company, a you know, fill in the blank software

know, fill in the blank software company, the world's full every one of

company, the world's full every one of the mag seven companies. The world's

the mag seven companies. The world's full of companies that have good

full of companies that have good businesses that generate cash flows, but

businesses that generate cash flows, but they have a defective treasury strategy.

they have a defective treasury strategy. All of those companies have a treasury

All of those companies have a treasury which is not generating shareholder

which is not generating shareholder value. Right? If if you take a billion

value. Right? If if you take a billion dollars and you buy uh money markets

dollars and you buy uh money markets with it, they yield 2% or 3% after tax.

with it, they yield 2% or 3% after tax. And if the S&P is generating 14%.

And if the S&P is generating 14%. Then you've underperformed the cost of

Then you've underperformed the cost of capital by 11%.

capital by 11%. Therefore, your treasury is a cost

Therefore, your treasury is a cost center, not a profit center for the

center, not a profit center for the shareholders. And so what happens is the

shareholders. And so what happens is the it shrivebles up. The company basically

it shrivebles up. The company basically decapizes the balance sheet and they

decapizes the balance sheet and they give all the money away. And that it

give all the money away. And that it just describes in a nutshell every

just describes in a nutshell every well-run company in the United States,

well-run company in the United States, right? Except Bergkshire Hathway. uh

right? Except Bergkshire Hathway. uh every everywhere where else like uh all

every everywhere where else like uh all the mag seven what they do is they

the mag seven what they do is they defund the treasury. So, if you're one

defund the treasury. So, if you're one of those companies,

of those companies, you could just replace money markets

you could just replace money markets with um well, you could replace it with

with um well, you could replace it with Bitcoin instead. And Bitcoin is 50% or

Bitcoin instead. And Bitcoin is 50% or le

le 20-year forecast is 30% if you're a

20-year forecast is 30% if you're a believer, 20% if you're an investor,

believer, 20% if you're an investor, 10% if you're a skeptic,

10% if you're a skeptic, right? But whether it's 10 or 20 or 30%,

right? But whether it's 10 or 20 or 30%, they're all better than 2% or 3% which

they're all better than 2% or 3% which is the status quo, right? So

is the status quo, right? So if you're if you're in the 20 or 30%

if you're if you're in the 20 or 30% camp, it it

camp, it it outperforms the hurdle rate, which is

outperforms the hurdle rate, which is the S&P index. And so at that point the

the S&P index. And so at that point the treasury in the balance sheet becomes

treasury in the balance sheet becomes profit center which means that you would

profit center which means that you would stop paying dividends. You would stop

stop paying dividends. You would stop doing buybacks. You would roll it into

doing buybacks. You would roll it into Bitcoin and the company's market cap

Bitcoin and the company's market cap would grow faster and the stock would

would grow faster and the stock would grow faster. Right? So that's way to

grow faster. Right? So that's way to create shareholder value. You won't be

create shareholder value. You won't be better than us. You won't be better than

better than us. You won't be better than a pure play treasury company but you'll

a pure play treasury company but you'll be better than your peers. Right? Like

be better than your peers. Right? Like if if you're a native business, your

if if you're a native business, your organic business is growing 10%, you'll

organic business is growing 10%, you'll go 13,

go 13, >> right?

>> right? >> Right. If every other retailer is losing

>> Right. If every other retailer is losing money, you'll make money, right? Um

money, you'll make money, right? Um what we've done is created a pure

what we've done is created a pure treasury company. So our risk our

treasury company. So our risk our risk-free rate, our hurdle rate is 30%.

risk-free rate, our hurdle rate is 30%. That's what I expect out of Bitcoin over

That's what I expect out of Bitcoin over the next 20 years. 29% but let's call it

the next 20 years. 29% but let's call it 30% round up. So my my uh benchmark rate

30% round up. So my my uh benchmark rate is 30%. If I put leverage on it I should

is 30%. If I put leverage on it I should be able to grow 50 or 40.

be able to grow 50 or 40. There's I don't think there's any any

There's I don't think there's any any non-financial company. There's no

non-financial company. There's no there's no physical company that's going

there's no physical company that's going to actually appreciate at that rate

to actually appreciate at that rate because you can't do it with real estate

because you can't do it with real estate or oil or natural gas. The investment

or oil or natural gas. The investment cycles are too slow. you know the the

cycles are too slow. you know the the development cycles are too slow, the

development cycles are too slow, the risks are too ineffable,

risks are too ineffable, etc. So I would say across thousands of

etc. So I would say across thousands of companies, every company ought to

companies, every company ought to recapitalize their balance sheet on

recapitalize their balance sheet on Bitcoin because that will cause them to

Bitcoin because that will cause them to grow 50% faster than their peers or than

grow 50% faster than their peers or than they would otherwise. They'll just be

they would otherwise. They'll just be better and that compounds. Yeah. Yeah.

better and that compounds. Yeah. Yeah. So, a billion dollar company will be

So, a billion dollar company will be worth $10 billion instead of $2 billion

worth $10 billion instead of $2 billion in a decade. Okay. If they were a pure

in a decade. Okay. If they were a pure play, they might go from a billion

play, they might go from a billion dollars to hundred billion. They won't

dollars to hundred billion. They won't do that, but that's not their bogey. And

do that, but that's not their bogey. And and the truth is they probably can't get

and the truth is they probably can't get political consensus to change their

political consensus to change their retail or to sell the retail business

retail or to sell the retail business and become a pure financial company.

and become a pure financial company. That's probably not going to happen. So

That's probably not going to happen. So I I just think uh it's not a bad idea,

I I just think uh it's not a bad idea, but your expectations

but your expectations ought to be adjusted based upon

ought to be adjusted based upon the enterprise value mix, right?

the enterprise value mix, right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Like if Microsoft bought hundred billion

>> Like if Microsoft bought hundred billion dollars of Bitcoin tomorrow,

dollars of Bitcoin tomorrow, 98% of the enterprise value would still

98% of the enterprise value would still be indexed to the software business,

be indexed to the software business, right?

right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> If they bought a trillion dollars of

>> If they bought a trillion dollars of Bitcoin tomorrow, they'd still be 75%

Bitcoin tomorrow, they'd still be 75% indexed to the software business. So you

indexed to the software business. So you can't get to 100%

can't get to 100% digital exposure unless you actually

digital exposure unless you actually start with a clean balance sheet.

start with a clean balance sheet. >> Yeah. Starting with a clean balance

>> Yeah. Starting with a clean balance sheet. So it seems like for the new crop

sheet. So it seems like for the new crop of companies that are starting up in

of companies that are starting up in micro strategy when you raise the

micro strategy when you raise the convertible debt then you had the debt

convertible debt then you had the debt to cover. So then there was a lot of

to cover. So then there was a lot of questions in the industry about how you

questions in the industry about how you cover the debt. What's the underlying

cover the debt. What's the underlying business model? But in sort of the

business model? But in sort of the strategy 2.0 version

strategy 2.0 version >> skip that.

>> skip that. >> If you could just go raise a billion

>> If you could just go raise a billion dollars of Bitcoin and start issuing

dollars of Bitcoin and start issuing preferred

preferred >> doing it again. I'd raise a billion

>> doing it again. I'd raise a billion dollars. I'd take the thing public

dollars. I'd take the thing public >> and then I'd sell 100 million, 200

>> and then I'd sell 100 million, 200 million, 300 million worth of preferred

million, 300 million worth of preferred stock as soon as possible.

stock as soon as possible. >> Y

>> Y >> and then I would rock back and forth

>> and then I would rock back and forth between levering, delevering the thing.

between levering, delevering the thing. And I would grow it with the minimum

And I would grow it with the minimum most elegant

most elegant set of credit instruments.

set of credit instruments. Like if you look at expansions for us

Like if you look at expansions for us right now, stretch seems like the killer

right now, stretch seems like the killer product in the US. Maybe we do the same

product in the US. Maybe we do the same thing in yen or euros or Canadian or

thing in yen or euros or Canadian or pounds, right? But but otherwise there's

pounds, right? But but otherwise there's nothing else that's all that exciting,

nothing else that's all that exciting, >> right? I mean, and even those things are

>> right? I mean, and even those things are much less exciting than just growing the

much less exciting than just growing the business in the US by a factor of 100.

business in the US by a factor of 100. >> Yeah. So speaking of that, then in New

>> Yeah. So speaking of that, then in New York, you had talked about the potential

York, you had talked about the potential to have a thousand of these companies.

to have a thousand of these companies. Um,

Um, >> yeah. When you think about if it's just

>> yeah. When you think about if it's just as simple as just selling that one

as simple as just selling that one product, can there be a thousand

product, can there be a thousand companies selling that one product or is

companies selling that one product or is it that there's going to be a thousand

it that there's going to be a thousand companies each doing their own

companies each doing their own variations? Some are like more like in

variations? Some are like more like in insurance companies, some are more like

insurance companies, some are more like banks. We have 10 major banks.

banks. We have 10 major banks. >> There's a lot of products.

>> There's a lot of products. >> There's thousands of regional banks, but

>> There's thousands of regional banks, but there's like 10 major banks.

there's like 10 major banks. >> Yeah. So,

>> Yeah. So, I think there's huge amount of how many

I think there's huge amount of how many insurance companies are there in the

insurance companies are there in the world?

world? >> A lot. How many life insurance companies

>> A lot. How many life insurance companies are there in the world that sell

are there in the world that sell essentially the same exact product,

essentially the same exact product, >> right?

>> right? >> Like more than a dozen,

>> Like more than a dozen, >> right? And they're completely different

>> right? And they're completely different than banks.

than banks. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. How many car insurance companies,

>> Yeah. How many car insurance companies, right? How many DNO insurance? How many

right? How many DNO insurance? How many reinsurance companies? Like, so off the

reinsurance companies? Like, so off the top of my head, products, the obvious

top of my head, products, the obvious ones, you sell treasury credit in every

ones, you sell treasury credit in every country in the world. Brazil, Argentina.

country in the world. Brazil, Argentina. Look, you won't be better than a US

Look, you won't be better than a US company, but you'll be better than every

company, but you'll be better than every Argentine company,

Argentine company, >> right? The Brazil, you know, Brazilian

>> right? The Brazil, you know, Brazilian treasury company, it won't be as good as

treasury company, it won't be as good as as the US one, but it'll be better than

as the US one, but it'll be better than every country in Brazil. And by the way,

every country in Brazil. And by the way, in that way it may become better because

in that way it may become better because if you're this if you are the most

if you're this if you are the most compelling, fastest growing company in

compelling, fastest growing company in Brazil, then aren't you going to slurp

Brazil, then aren't you going to slurp up all the equity capital and all the

up all the equity capital and all the credit capital in the entire country,

credit capital in the entire country, >> right?

>> right? >> Which is like which is interesting. So

>> Which is like which is interesting. So you can do this um there's place to

you can do this um there's place to create um a treasury company in

create um a treasury company in Switzerland. Uh the 26 country is it 26

Switzerland. Uh the 26 country is it 26 or 27 countries in the Euro zone?

or 27 countries in the Euro zone? They're all different. There's a German

They're all different. There's a German one, a French one, a Swedish one, a

one, a French one, a Swedish one, a Norwegian one. You can do, you know,

Norwegian one. You can do, you know, Netherlands, Belgium, UK, Ireland,

Netherlands, Belgium, UK, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, right? You know.

Spain, Portugal, Italy, right? You know. >> Yeah. and and uh then Japan, Korea,

>> Yeah. and and uh then Japan, Korea, >> Dubai, China, Abu Dhabi,

>> Dubai, China, Abu Dhabi, >> China, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia,

>> China, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, India,

India, Australia, Canada,

Australia, Canada, >> Mexico. Okay, so there you could just be

>> Mexico. Okay, so there you could just be the first provider of digital credit,

the first provider of digital credit, right? And maybe you sell kerosene, you

right? And maybe you sell kerosene, you sell stretch, but then maybe you also

sell stretch, but then maybe you also sell long duration credit or convertible

sell long duration credit or convertible credit or whatever. But then let's I've

credit or whatever. But then let's I've just broken it down geographically, but

just broken it down geographically, but then let's come back to the US and break

then let's come back to the US and break it down by industry sector, right? You

it down by industry sector, right? You could be the one that specializes in

could be the one that specializes in insurance or or feeding the insurance

insurance or or feeding the insurance company or you could create a a credit

company or you could create a a credit product that's like a reinsurance

product that's like a reinsurance product, right? You could you could

product, right? You could you could create various credit part products that

create various credit part products that are tailored to the life insurance, the

are tailored to the life insurance, the annuities,

annuities, the you know every other type of

the you know every other type of insurance, you know, flood, casualty,

insurance, you know, flood, casualty, property insurance businesses. Um there

property insurance businesses. Um there are a lot of buyers in the market, fixed

are a lot of buyers in the market, fixed income buyers, they just will not buy

income buyers, they just will not buy prefers no matter what. They'll want to

prefers no matter what. They'll want to buy bonds. Okay? So I I don't want to

buy bonds. Okay? So I I don't want to sell them because it doesn't make sense

sell them because it doesn't make sense for me. But if you were saying, "Mike, I

for me. But if you were saying, "Mike, I got10 billion dollars. I want to compete

got10 billion dollars. I want to compete with you and and I want to grow just

with you and and I want to grow just faster. What niche should I pick?" I'm

faster. What niche should I pick?" I'm like, "Well, I'm I'm not going to do

like, "Well, I'm I'm not going to do 10-year bonds. Why don't you just do

10-year bonds. Why don't you just do what I did, but raise $10 billion and

what I did, but raise $10 billion and issue a billion dollars of bonds? It'll

issue a billion dollars of bonds? It'll do do 144a offerings, not compete with

do do 144a offerings, not compete with me." By the way, the market loves them.

me." By the way, the market loves them. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Start to do basically over-the-counter

>> Start to do basically over-the-counter institutional bond offerings. And the

institutional bond offerings. And the debate is, do you sell five-year

debate is, do you sell five-year instruments? I'm going to sell five-year

instruments? I'm going to sell five-year secured bonds and I'm going to roll them

secured bonds and I'm going to roll them every quarter

every quarter or I'm gonna say, you know, you could go

or I'm gonna say, you know, you could go and and do the convertible bond market

and and do the convertible bond market if you want or you could do unsecured or

if you want or you could do unsecured or you could do secured. I'm like, Mike, I

you could do secured. I'm like, Mike, I found like the biggest insurance company

found like the biggest insurance company in the US, they don't want the

in the US, they don't want the preferred, they don't want the converts,

preferred, they don't want the converts, but they would take senior debt as long

but they would take senior debt as long as it's they've got a claim on the

as it's they've got a claim on the capital for up to 20% of the capital

capital for up to 20% of the capital structure or whatever.

structure or whatever. >> Yeah. and uh and they have hundred

>> Yeah. and uh and they have hundred billion dollars they'll give me.

billion dollars they'll give me. Do you want it? I'm like no, I don't

Do you want it? I'm like no, I don't want it right now. It confuses my story,

want it right now. It confuses my story, confuses my investors. It puts credit

confuses my investors. It puts credit risk senior to all my other instruments

risk senior to all my other instruments and that kind of is not good for my

and that kind of is not good for my capital structure. But should you take

capital structure. But should you take it? Absolutely. You could probably take

it? Absolutely. You could probably take a hundred billion dollars. There's

a hundred billion dollars. There's probably a hundred billion dollar senior

probably a hundred billion dollar senior debt thing. Hundred billion dollars of

debt thing. Hundred billion dollars of junk unsecured. is hundred billion

junk unsecured. is hundred billion dollars or 50 billion to take out of the

dollars or 50 billion to take out of the convert market. You could probably write

convert market. You could probably write all sorts of custom instruments for the

all sorts of custom instruments for the annuity industry, the insurance

annuity industry, the insurance industry. And guess what? None of that's

industry. And guess what? None of that's going to be interesting to the Japanese

going to be interesting to the Japanese insurance companies,

insurance companies, >> right?

>> right? >> They're going to want different. So when

>> They're going to want different. So when you say what are all the products, I

you say what are all the products, I think the products are if there's $300

think the products are if there's $300 trillion of credit instruments, I think

trillion of credit instruments, I think the products are every possible

the products are every possible currency, every pos. By the way, we can

currency, every pos. By the way, we can say euro, but you know, French bonds and

say euro, but you know, French bonds and euros aren't the same as German bonds

euros aren't the same as German bonds and euros, right? So, it's like every

and euros, right? So, it's like every type of currency, every uh jurisdiction,

type of currency, every uh jurisdiction, every type of credit, every flavor of

every type of credit, every flavor of credit,

credit, you know, we issued a lot of things that

you know, we issued a lot of things that you know, and then every distribution

you know, and then every distribution channel. Do you do you go public on that

channel. Do you do you go public on that exchange? Do you do direct to

exchange? Do you do direct to institutional sales?

institutional sales? It's not clear to me. For example, we

It's not clear to me. For example, we couldn't do something where we just like

couldn't do something where we just like roll 10-year bonds and just, you know,

roll 10-year bonds and just, you know, it's like, how do you handle the credit

it's like, how do you handle the credit risk? Well, just every year we'll

risk? Well, just every year we'll refinance 10% of them. We'll never have

refinance 10% of them. We'll never have more than 10%. Or maybe I'll just

more than 10%. Or maybe I'll just refinancing them every quarter. I'll

refinancing them every quarter. I'll never have more than 2%.

never have more than 2%. 2 and a half%. You know, so there there

2 and a half%. You know, so there there are other credit products that can be

are other credit products that can be created. There are other buyers.

created. There are other buyers. They're investors,

They're investors, right? But then again, there's also

right? But then again, there's also corporations that would bypass. So like

corporations that would bypass. So like the pension funds and the insurance

the pension funds and the insurance companies would get you could go direct

companies would get you could go direct to them and open up a pipe.

to them and open up a pipe. And then there are all the bond traders

And then there are all the bond traders and the pimos and the vanguards and the

and the pimos and the vanguards and the fidelities of the world and and

fidelities of the world and and indirectly

indirectly the pension funds and the endowments are

the pension funds and the endowments are behind them. Right.

behind them. Right. >> Yeah. So, you know, you might be able to

>> Yeah. So, you know, you might be able to create the perfect product for an

create the perfect product for an endowment.

endowment. It's like, well, we like Bitcoin, but we

It's like, well, we like Bitcoin, but we don't want we can't stomach the

don't want we can't stomach the volatility. Can you just give me uh a

volatility. Can you just give me uh a 10% guarantee?

10% guarantee? And then and then there's issue of

And then and then there's issue of liquidity, like, well, we would give you

liquidity, like, well, we would give you $10 billion, but we need the right to

$10 billion, but we need the right to redeem 500 million in any given quarter

redeem 500 million in any given quarter direct from you. Like I wouldn't do that

direct from you. Like I wouldn't do that deal like for my company because it's

deal like for my company because it's complicating for me,

complicating for me, >> but you might do that deal if the choice

>> but you might do that deal if the choice was have a hundred billion dollar

was have a hundred billion dollar company and agree to create $500 million

company and agree to create $500 million in cash on hand or not.

in cash on hand or not. >> Right.

>> Right. >> Right.

>> Right. >> Yeah. And and by we haven't explored

>> Yeah. And and by we haven't explored that but but there's a lot of there's a

that but but there's a lot of there's a lot of you could create a quasi money

lot of you could create a quasi money market instrument where you actually you

market instrument where you actually you know allocate kept 5% of all the capital

know allocate kept 5% of all the capital available for ready redemption on a

available for ready redemption on a daily basis and then you you know how

daily basis and then you you know how funds they'll create gated redemption

funds they'll create gated redemption windows

windows like you're investing with me for seven

like you're investing with me for seven years but once a quarter you have a one

years but once a quarter you have a one day when you can give me rede you can

day when you can give me rede you can call you could put you could put call

call you could put you could put call options and put rights or redemption

options and put rights or redemption rights into a preferred stock.

rights into a preferred stock. I haven't.

I haven't. You could.

You could. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> It's a different product.

>> It's a different product. >> You know, some people like polyester,

>> You know, some people like polyester, some people like Lycra.

some people like Lycra. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> You know, nylon.

>> You know, nylon. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Right there. There's a lot of things you

>> Right there. There's a lot of things you can do with carbon, hydrogen, and

can do with carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen.

oxygen. >> Yeah. And not everyone's going to want

>> Yeah. And not everyone's going to want to do all those things. In the US, we

to do all those things. In the US, we have almost 5,000 ETFs that are each

have almost 5,000 ETFs that are each just a little flavor of something,

just a little flavor of something, right? Thousands of bonds.

right? Thousands of bonds. >> And a lot of it's a question of what can

>> And a lot of it's a question of what can you market more like what can you sell?

you market more like what can you sell? >> And what I think that is there'll be a

>> And what I think that is there'll be a Cambrian explosion in digital credit

Cambrian explosion in digital credit issuers and there's a you know you're

issuers and there's a you know you're like well isn't that a lot of stuff?

like well isn't that a lot of stuff? Well, have you ever studied the mortgage

Well, have you ever studied the mortgage back security industry? You know how

back security industry? You know how many things people created?

many things people created? Yeah. I mean, there's hundred hundreds

Yeah. I mean, there's hundred hundreds of thousands of credit instruments,

of thousands of credit instruments, maybe millions of credit instruments,

maybe millions of credit instruments, and you know, start to go online and

and you know, start to go online and figure out every possible twist and turn

figure out every possible twist and turn of every credit instrument.

of every credit instrument. The average person can't even name the

The average person can't even name the top five categories,

top five categories, >> right?

>> right? >> Or top 10 category. So, there's an

>> Or top 10 category. So, there's an industry there. The beauty is

industry there. The beauty is the beauty is there's a um there's a

the beauty is there's a um there's a methodology or a distribution channel to

methodology or a distribution channel to figure out whether your idea is a good

figure out whether your idea is a good one. Like you create uh a security and

one. Like you create uh a security and you go and you offer it and it's a

you go and you offer it and it's a two-day road show or a one-day road show

two-day road show or a one-day road show and the investors are either going to

and the investors are either going to buy $250 million of it in one day or

buy $250 million of it in one day or they're going to tell you we don't want

they're going to tell you we don't want any of it. It's very so you can create

any of it. It's very so you can create billion-dollar product lines

billion-dollar product lines in uh a conversation with the investors

in uh a conversation with the investors in a 144A

in a 144A offering.

offering. How many consumer products that are a

How many consumer products that are a billion dollars can you create in two

billion dollars can you create in two days where you know for certainty it's

days where you know for certainty it's going to work?

going to work? Yeah. So I so I think that the capital

Yeah. So I so I think that the capital markets are primed

markets are primed for innovative digital credit issuers to

for innovative digital credit issuers to go and create dozen different

go and create dozen different interesting compelling things. Like you

interesting compelling things. Like you you might not come up with the thing

you might not come up with the thing they want, but you won't spend more than

they want, but you won't spend more than a few days finding out.

a few days finding out. And uh you know in the real estate

And uh you know in the real estate business, people create a billion dollar

business, people create a billion dollar building and no one wants to lease it

building and no one wants to lease it and it takes five years and they lose a

and it takes five years and they lose a billion dollars.

billion dollars. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's never going to happen with a

That's never going to happen with a digital credit instrument.

digital credit instrument. >> Yeah. You can essentially sell it before

>> Yeah. You can essentially sell it before you build it.

you build it. >> Like we're literally building it in real

>> Like we're literally building it in real time,

time, >> right,

>> right, >> Mark? Like we're open for business every

>> Mark? Like we're open for business every day with four credit ATMs. If someone

day with four credit ATMs. If someone hit the bid and wanted to buy $500

hit the bid and wanted to buy $500 million

million in a minute,

in a minute, we build a building in a minute. Yeah.

we build a building in a minute. Yeah. In 60 seconds. Trade is done. cash

In 60 seconds. Trade is done. cash change changes hands. We create the

change changes hands. We create the collateral. We bought the Bitcoin

collateral. We bought the Bitcoin underlying that day.

underlying that day. Sometimes we're we're literally selling

Sometimes we're we're literally selling 50 million an hour or 100 million an

50 million an hour or 100 million an hour and buying the $100 million of

hour and buying the $100 million of Bitcoin the same hour.

Bitcoin the same hour. Like we could do a billion dollars of

Like we could do a billion dollars of capital raising in a day and we might

capital raising in a day and we might have 20 million of exposure at 400 PM.

have 20 million of exposure at 400 PM. And by 5 or 6 p.m. we're fully done.

And by 5 or 6 p.m. we're fully done. >> The investment cycle is a thousand times

>> The investment cycle is a thousand times faster

faster than technology,

than technology, real estate, oil and gas, anything else

real estate, oil and gas, anything else you've ever seen before in your life.

you've ever seen before in your life. And maybe the more profound idea is

And maybe the more profound idea is think about all these other credit

think about all these other credit instruments. You know, what's backing

instruments. You know, what's backing corporate credit? What's backing

corporate credit? What's backing mortgage credit? What's backing bank

mortgage credit? What's backing bank credit? what's backing all the, you

credit? what's backing all the, you know, all these things. If you sell a

know, all these things. If you sell a billion dollars of mortgage back

billion dollars of mortgage back securities, who's going to build a

securities, who's going to build a billion dollars worth of real estate

billion dollars worth of real estate that someone wants to rent and how long

that someone wants to rent and how long will that take?

will that take? So, this is a a profound new idea and

So, this is a a profound new idea and and uh that's why those digital credit

and uh that's why those digital credit issuers can grow so fast.

issuers can grow so fast. >> Man, you've explained it so well. I'm

>> Man, you've explained it so well. I'm gonna I'm going to wrap it up with this

gonna I'm going to wrap it up with this last uh question here since we're here

last uh question here since we're here in Washington DC in the nation's

in Washington DC in the nation's capital. Um at the at the keynote you

capital. Um at the at the keynote you just gave earlier. I love the way that

just gave earlier. I love the way that you closed it down. It was like this

you closed it down. It was like this empowering message of sort of telling

empowering message of sort of telling people like this amazing opportunity

people like this amazing opportunity that we have right now. The winds have

that we have right now. The winds have shifted like now is a time for those

shifted like now is a time for those that want to embrace digital

that want to embrace digital intelligence and digital capital is kind

intelligence and digital capital is kind of how you said it. in New York, you had

of how you said it. in New York, you had uh said, I want to push back on the fix

uh said, I want to push back on the fix the money, fix the world narrative and

the money, fix the world narrative and because it was like in order to succeed,

because it was like in order to succeed, we have to go fix the equity and fix the

we have to go fix the equity and fix the funds and and fix the bank. So, we need

funds and and fix the bank. So, we need to go build the world that we want. And

to go build the world that we want. And so, I'm just curious while we're here in

so, I'm just curious while we're here in DC thinking about Bitcoin policy. How do

DC thinking about Bitcoin policy. How do you think we should be sort of fixing

you think we should be sort of fixing that in this political environment? More

that in this political environment? More of like a constitutionalist. We're sort

of like a constitutionalist. We're sort of trying to get them to sort of pass

of trying to get them to sort of pass laws that sort of protect us or are we

laws that sort of protect us or are we are we pushing for regulations that give

are we pushing for regulations that give us clarity and direction?

us clarity and direction? >> Well, I think the good news is Bitcoin

>> Well, I think the good news is Bitcoin has already got the best regulatory

has already got the best regulatory treatment of any digital asset in the

treatment of any digital asset in the world and has right. It's it's globally

world and has right. It's it's globally recognized as a digital commodity and

recognized as a digital commodity and property even in China. In China, where

property even in China. In China, where crypto trading is illegal, where crypto

crypto trading is illegal, where crypto mining is illegal, Bitcoin mining is

mining is illegal, Bitcoin mining is illegal, Bitcoin holding is not illegal,

illegal, Bitcoin holding is not illegal, and Bitcoin is represented, is

and Bitcoin is represented, is recognized by the courts as digital

recognized by the courts as digital property as property. You can own it.

property as property. You can own it. So, we're already starting with a good

So, we're already starting with a good place. Um, if your business model is

place. Um, if your business model is digital credit, we've already got pretty

digital credit, we've already got pretty well-developed credit laws. Um, the US

well-developed credit laws. Um, the US has the most advanced rule. So if you're

has the most advanced rule. So if you're a US company, you could get there are a

a US company, you could get there are a thousand ideas like I just gave you who

thousand ideas like I just gave you who knows how many

knows how many >> different ones. There's a thousand

>> different ones. There's a thousand things you could do starting with

things you could do starting with Bitcoin in a public traded company right

Bitcoin in a public traded company right now. You don't need any

now. You don't need any regulatory changes. You don't need any

regulatory changes. You don't need any new laws. You can go at it. If you're a

new laws. You can go at it. If you're a Bitcoin treasury company outside the US,

Bitcoin treasury company outside the US, look, the Swiss are a bit behind on some

look, the Swiss are a bit behind on some things. The Europeans are slightly

things. The Europeans are slightly behind on they're slower on ATMs. The

behind on they're slower on ATMs. The Swiss are slower on preferred stocks.

Swiss are slower on preferred stocks. the Japanese are a bit slower on this

the Japanese are a bit slower on this and that. So you have to go and lobby

and that. So you have to go and lobby those regulators and those politicians

those regulators and those politicians to upgrade and update their their

to upgrade and update their their exchanges,

exchanges, their regs. Sometimes the tax code is

their regs. Sometimes the tax code is prejuditial. You know, like in Japan,

prejuditial. You know, like in Japan, the taxes on Bitcoin were much higher

the taxes on Bitcoin were much higher than the taxes on equity. So any company

than the taxes on equity. So any company has a responsibility for advocacy

has a responsibility for advocacy on behalf of its investors, you know,

on behalf of its investors, you know, and on behalf of its constituents.

and on behalf of its constituents. We think about what's good for the

We think about what's good for the credit buyers and we think about what's

credit buyers and we think about what's good for the equity holders, right? And

good for the equity holders, right? And we think about what's good for the world

we think about what's good for the world and what's good for the United States.

and what's good for the United States. And we only advocate for things that are

And we only advocate for things that are good for everybody, right? There's the

good for everybody, right? There's the thing is there are no losers here.

thing is there are no losers here. except

except the 20th century antiquated oligopoly

the 20th century antiquated oligopoly that is selling inferior credit

that is selling inferior credit instruments. So it's like you just

instruments. So it's like you just invented the car and there are a lot of

invented the car and there are a lot of horse and buggy manufacturers that are

horse and buggy manufacturers that are going to be out of a job and if you feel

going to be out of a job and if you feel sorry for them, no one's getting cars.

sorry for them, no one's getting cars. And we've got the atomic powered flying

And we've got the atomic powered flying faster than light hover car. And yeah,

faster than light hover car. And yeah, there's a lot of people selling

there's a lot of people selling antiquated crappy vehicles and no one's

antiquated crappy vehicles and no one's going to want to buy them anymore,

going to want to buy them anymore, but that's technology. The human race

but that's technology. The human race has got to move forward. So, so if

has got to move forward. So, so if you're offering digital credit, digital

you're offering digital credit, digital capital, digital equity, it's a better

capital, digital equity, it's a better thing.

thing. And and ultimately, you're feeding the

And and ultimately, you're feeding the 400 million companies.

400 million companies. Look, every for every company that can't

Look, every for every company that can't sell a crappy credit instrument, their

sell a crappy credit instrument, their treasurer can buy our credit instrument

treasurer can buy our credit instrument and get triple or quadruple and maybe

and get triple or quadruple and maybe that'll save the company, right? So,

that'll save the company, right? So, yeah, there's technology that's putting

yeah, there's technology that's putting you out of business all the time and

you out of business all the time and then there's new technology that will

then there's new technology that will make you a fortune and put you in

make you a fortune and put you in business. If you're a critical skeptical

business. If you're a critical skeptical keragin,

keragin, you just focus on the negativity and

you just focus on the negativity and you're just negative on everything. I

you're just negative on everything. I hate that. I hate that. That's bad. I

hate that. I hate that. That's bad. I hate that. I don't want to change. And

hate that. I don't want to change. And if you're constructive and cheerful and

if you're constructive and cheerful and if you're an optimist, you're like,

if you're an optimist, you're like, well, I won't be, you know, my eight

well, I won't be, you know, my eight track take collection isn't that

track take collection isn't that valuable anymore, but I do have

valuable anymore, but I do have unlimited free streaming music.

unlimited free streaming music. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> You know, and I I guess, you know, I

>> You know, and I I guess, you know, I lost a little money invested in whatever

lost a little money invested in whatever record stores, but I also bought some

record stores, but I also bought some Apple stock and made a fortune,

Apple stock and made a fortune, right? And and I would say all these

right? And and I would say all these corporate operators their job is you

corporate operators their job is you know look at the you know anticipate the

know look at the you know anticipate the future

future look at the past move forward do it in

look at the past move forward do it in the most graceful civil responsible

the most graceful civil responsible you know elegant fashion you can. Right?

you know elegant fashion you can. Right? The world isn't the way it was 100 years

The world isn't the way it was 100 years ago. It it won't be this way a 100red

ago. It it won't be this way a 100red years from now. That's the human

years from now. That's the human condition.

condition. If there were if there wasn't work to do

If there were if there wasn't work to do to move us from the past to the future,

to move us from the past to the future, you wouldn't have a job. There'd be no

you wouldn't have a job. There'd be no reason to get up in the morning. There'd

reason to get up in the morning. There'd be nothing to get excited about,

be nothing to get excited about, right? You're irrelevant. And I I got to

right? You're irrelevant. And I I got to tell you, you don't want to wake up one

tell you, you don't want to wake up one day and think, "I'm irrelevant. Nobody

day and think, "I'm irrelevant. Nobody needs me. No one will care." and and the

needs me. No one will care." and and the way we did it for the past hundred years

way we did it for the past hundred years is probably just the way we should do it

is probably just the way we should do it forever.

forever. >> Yeah, that's not a way to succeed. We

>> Yeah, that's not a way to succeed. We want to grow. We want to challenge

want to grow. We want to challenge ourselves and learn. All right. Well, I

ourselves and learn. All right. Well, I think we covered we covered everything.

think we covered we covered everything. Thanks so much. I and I I want to say I

Thanks so much. I and I I want to say I kind of said it in New York, but um I

kind of said it in New York, but um I just want to say thank you for all the

just want to say thank you for all the education that you put in the space. I

education that you put in the space. I mean, you're tirelessly going on

mean, you're tirelessly going on everybody's show speaking around. I know

everybody's show speaking around. I know you're in DC speaking, so the education

you're in DC speaking, so the education piece is massive. So, thank you for

piece is massive. So, thank you for that. I mean, it's it's made a big

that. I mean, it's it's made a big difference, but also blazing the trail

difference, but also blazing the trail for what's what we can do with these

for what's what we can do with these credit instruments and these treasury

credit instruments and these treasury companies, not just so other companies

companies, not just so other companies like ourselves can follow in the

like ourselves can follow in the footsteps, but all these pensioners that

footsteps, but all these pensioners that need it, right? And so, um, sort of

need it, right? And so, um, sort of taking Bitcoin to the biggest group of

taking Bitcoin to the biggest group of people that need it the most, but

people that need it the most, but probably won't use it, and now they can

probably won't use it, and now they can have it. So, I want to say thank you.

have it. So, I want to say thank you. Anything that you want to call out

Anything that you want to call out attention to before we shut down?

attention to before we shut down? >> Well, thanks for hosting me and I'm

>> Well, thanks for hosting me and I'm happy to be on the journey with you.

happy to be on the journey with you. >> Yeah. All right. Thank you.

Click on any text or timestamp to jump to that moment in the video

Most transcripts ready in under 5 seconds

One-Click Copy125+ LanguagesSearch ContentJump to Timestamps

Paste YouTube URL

Enter any YouTube video link to get the full transcript

Most transcripts ready in under 5 seconds

Get Our Chrome Extension

Get transcripts instantly without leaving YouTube. Install our Chrome extension for one-click access to any video's transcript directly on the watch page.

Add to Chrome — Free

Works with YouTube, Coursera, Udemy and more educational platforms

Get Instant Transcripts: Just Edit the Domain in Your Address Bar!

YouTube

←

→

↻

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc

YoutubeToText

←

→

↻

https://youtubetotext.net/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc

YouTube TranscriptPreparing your results…

YouTube Transcript:Michael Saylor: The Blueprint for A New Financial System

Video Transcript

Summary

Core Theme

Paste YouTube URL

Transcript Extraction Form

Get Our Chrome Extension

Get Instant Transcripts: Just Edit the Domain in Your Address Bar!

YouTube Transcript:
Michael Saylor: The Blueprint for A New Financial System