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Lee Strobel - Who is Jesus Christ the Son of God? | SRS #152

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[Music]

Lee Strobel welcome to the show thanks

Sean great to be with you it's I'm

honored to have you here oh I'm honored

to be here I watch your show and love

the way you engage with your guest so I

thought hey that sounds like it'd be a

fun experience so I'm glad to be here

well thank you thank you for saying that

so sorry about the weight I get I get

nervous for every one of these

interviews so half the time when I say

I'm down there going through my outline

I'm just procras ating but uh but uh no

seriously though I've been we've been

trying to get a hold of you for over a

year now and um we finally got you and

so I've just I've been I've been really

anticipating this interview and and um

and um it's just you've been a major

part in my my journey to Faith and um I

know you don't know that but uh but as

I'm sure you have been for for millions

and millions of people and uh so it is

it is truly an honor to have you here I

appreciate that it's been a great

adventure you know if you told me you

know years ago that I would end up not

only being a Christian but telling other

people about Jesus I would have slammed

the door in your face I I would not have

anticipated this at all so yeah well I

can't wait to dive into that but um so

we're going to release this episode on

Christmas probably it'll be either

Christmas Eve or Christmas but um we

haven't decided yet but I I I've been

been one to do this like I said since

last year and so to have it here in time

to get it edited for for Christmas is uh

I think I think you're just the perfect

guest oh thanks and um so I want to dive

into your backstory some of the books

you've written especially case for

Christ and um and I want to you know I'm

learning here so I'm I'm I'm a very

curious person I I I use my curiosity

and all of my interviews and

and the thing that I'm most curious

about more than any any of the other

stuff that I interview is is is Jesus

Christ and and the Bible and so if you

can help me yeah um I would like to keep

the theme we're going to go into some

Dark Places I'm sure we're going to go

into some rabbit holes but overall I

really want to talk about who is Jesus

Christ and what does he mean to you yeah

and the rest of Christianity yeah

awesome and um and U so if you could my

favorite subject good good mine too good

good so and like I said I'm I'm learning

um I'm learning we all are we all are I

read the Bible and most of the time I'm

just being honest I have no idea what I

just read and uh so I I have a bunch of

different versions I've been diving into

this one called the it's called The

Action Bible I I heard of that one it's

more like a comic there like little

comic book sections but they have little

Snippets that break it down yeah for

dummies like me I like that and uh it

helps it helps but uh I can't wait to

get your perspective on some of the

stuff sure so but Le I know we did this

at breakfast but uh I would love I would

be honored and I would love to kick this

off with a prayer yeah and uh have you

lead it yeah I'd love to let me pray

father thank you for Sean thank you for

you've given him this curiosity about

about faith about issues that really

really matter thank you that you've

given him a platform where he can take

people along with him on that journey

and that we can all explore and discover

together uh we do pray for your blessing

on our conversation that it would be

encouraging that it would be

Illuminating that uh I know dare I even

pray it that it be lifechanging for some

people we pray this in Jesus name amen

amen I would like to add just a couple

things I just you know it's been a It's

been a some turbulent times in the world

and in the and in our country the United

States and and um I just I just want

everybody to have a really good Merry

Christmas this year and and hope it's

filled with family and love and um and

Lead just some of the things that we

spoke about at breakfast um in your

family I just hope you guys find some

answers in relief and um amen amen thank

you thank you sure so everybody starts

with an introduction here so

you have

uh quite the background so we

abbreviated it I hope we got all the

important parts here but Lee Strobel you

are a former atheist investigative

journalist and legal editor turned

Christian after investigating the

evidence for Christianity you are an

author of 40 plus books numerous

best-selling books on Christ on

Christianity including the case for

Christ which documents your journey from

atheist to Christianity your newest book

is God real exploring the ultimate

question of life examines the evidence

for the existence of God your books have

sold over 14 million copies and been

translated into multiple languages

several of your books including the case

for Christ have been made into films and

documentaries you are a renowned public

speaker and apologist frequently

addressing topics related to Faith

evidence for God and the resurrection of

Jesus you have become a household name

in the Christian Community and very

influential in helping Skeptics explore

Christianity intellectually and

spiritually in addition to all this you

have been married to your wife for 52

years you're a father of two children

and have embraced the role of a

grandfather congratulations thank you

four grandkids four grandkids yeah

that's amazing

so couple things here what is is what is

the definition of an atheist an atheist

says there is no God an agnostic says I

don't think there's a god um so that's

kind of the dividing line uh a lot of

people who call themselves atheists are

really agnostic because when you think

about it to say there is no God you

would have to be God to have that you

know that omniscience to know that God

does not exist so it's kind of a

self-refuting definition but generally

people who are atheist say there is no

God um agnostics say I just don't know

I'm not sure I don't believe it I'm not

there um I'm questioning I'm doubting

I'm a doubter but you were straight

atheist yeah I was yeah so is that that

sounds like a lot of work to to to prove

that there's nothing yeah it kind of It

kind of came in stages you know so the

first step was when I was in Middle

School and I started asking all those

questions that middle schoolers like to

ask like well if there's a God how can

there be suffering in the world or if

there's a God why would he send people

to hell and and nobody wanted to talk

about it and I thought oh I get it they

don't want to talk about this because

there are no good answers that was my

first step second step in atheism was in

high school when I took biology and I

was taught that Neo Darwinism explains

the origin and diversity of life so

God's out of a job you don't need God to

be a Creator science explains it away

and then third and final step in atheism

happened in college when I took a course

on the historical Jesus from a skeptic

and he taught me you can't trust

anything that the Bible tells you about

Jesus it's all fairy tale make believe

wishful thinking and that kind of was

the final nail in the coffin that

convinced me that yeah um God doesn't

exist I tend to be a skeptical person

that's that's who I am my background's

in journalism and law so you put those

together you know you get kind of a jerk

and kind of a kind of a skeptic and and

and that's who I was so I just thought

the mere concept of an all loving all-

knowing all powerful creator of the

universe come on it's crazy wasn't even

worth my time exploring so is it so is

it so it is actually a belief system it

is oh definitely definitely I believe

there is Faith involved um that you have

to have a certain amount of faith not in

God but in your own intellect in your

own ability to discern and and and

figure out that there is no uh God

behind all this stuff um so I think

there's Faith involved um TR faith means

trust you're putting your trust in

yourself that I'm smarter than everybody

else I know that there is no God and I'm

going to live a life consistent with

that and that's what I did I lived a

life consistent with my atheism

interesting so would you would

spend time trying to disprove God to

colleagues friends family

members people that you've run into

anybody that brought up the existence of

God yeah I would scoff I would mock I

would um I didn't spend a lot of time

trying to deconstruct their faith but I

certainly didn't buy it and would make

fun of it and make light of it um

because my attitude was okay if there is

no God if there is no heaven if there is

no hell if there is no judgment if there

is no ultimate

accountability then the most logical way

for me to live my life would be as a

hedonist someone who just pursued

pleasure and so that's what I did I I I

I lived a very immoral drunken profane narcissistic

narcissistic

self-absorbed um in some way

self-destructive kind of life that was

my life what people saw was my success I

was the legal editor of the Chicago

Tribune I was written books doing

television I mean they see the success

side they didn't see was me literally

drunk in the snow in an alley on

Saturday night so they weren't getting

the full picture of who I was but for me

it's like if there is no judgment

accountability this is all you get you

might as well just try to keep yourself

happy live as a henness try to to bring

as much quote unquote happiness into

life as you can and I was the

friendliest drunk in the bar you know I

would be the guy who get plastered by

midnight and then I'd get pictures of

beer and just go around fill everybody's

glasses up and I was a friendliest guy

in the bar man yeah I could uh

definitely relate to that uh sure we

have a lot in common I was also very

very similar uh for a long long long

time but um but before we get uh to in

the weeds with everything uh it is

Christmas so yeah got you a gift oh come

on no everybody gets a gift Lee

everybody gets oh

right those are vigilance League gummy

bears gummy bears made right here in the

USA nice thank you what else you got

it's just candy oh two of them that's it

awesome well thanks I appreciate I got a

gift for you thank you you know I have a

new book coming out in March of 2025

um it's called seeing the supernatural

oh wow one of the things that and and

the subtitle is investigating Angels

demons mystical dreams near-death

encounters and other Mysteries of the

Unseen World and so I spent a lot of

time on this book and what Publishers do

is they produce what's called an

advanced reader copy uh that goes out to

reviewers and to the media uh the actual

book is a jacketed hard cover and

everything but but this is the first

copy that's copy number one copy number

number one I signed it to you to Sean

first copy I just thought you might like

to have it oh man that is

uh thank you you're welcome this is

getting framed and put in the studio

thank you thank you thank you what um

we're going to dive into this more

towards the end of the interview a

little bit but what I'm just curious you

know what there's a lot of talk about

spiritual warfare right now yeah and so

I'm just I'm always curious you know

what kids people into what prompted you

to write this book ah it's a great

question um we live in a scientific age

we live in a technological age and

there's a lot of people who say that

science disproves Christianity disproves

Faith which I disagree with um and they

say there's nothing more to reality than

what we can see in

touch and I said that's not true there

is more to reality than what we can see

in touch and I wanted to document it in

this book by looking at things like uh

Miracles uh God's intervention in his

Creation in a way that cannot be

explained in any other way other than

God is entering into our world and

creating a miracle um deathbed Visions

people see just before they die often a

glimpse of what's to come uh Stephen in

the Bible just before he died he saw a

glimpse of heaven and this is extremely

common so I have a a chapter on that

near-death experiences people who who

are um Clinic Ally dead and yet have a a

an experience that's corroborated in one

way or the other um um direct encounters

from God how God reaches down and

touches lives mystical dreams um I

believe and the Bible teaches this that

there is a realm beyond what we can

currently see and touch and it is every

bit as real as the realm that we're in

and and experience day by day Spiritual

Warfare comes in because part of that

other realm is is there is a demonic

element uh we have Angels literally

hundreds of millions of angels that

exist there Spirits um but there's also

demons and um uh Satan um whose name had

been Lucifer um before he fell as an

angel and and is now in Warfare with

God's plan um you know he sometimes

reaches into our world and there are in

my book I document cases of possession

demonic possession this is real stuff

now demons cannot possess a Christian

because we're indwelled by the holy

spirit that we can't be indwell the same

time by a demonic Spirit but Satan can

uh Hector us he can harass us and so

spiritual warfare is a way that we

protect ourselves through prayer and

through vigilance and through uh reading

scripture and understanding why we

believe what we believe these various

things we can do to kind of ward off uh

these attacks that we otherwise might

experience interesting when you say

hundreds of millions of angels yeah

where do you come up with that because

there's a there's a um passage in

scripture where John gets a vision of

the post Resurrection Jesus on his

throne and he says there are 10,000 time

10,000 angels there well that's 100

million Angels just in that setting

around the Throne of Jesus worshiping

him so we got a minimum of 100 million

angels I believe that's just the tip of

an iceberg so do we become Angels when

we die no no we we are made in God's

image uh we um have capabilities that

Angels don't have they have capabilities

we don't have but they are a separate

creation what kind of capabilities um

that they would have both well first of

all they're they're they're not embodied

so they're spirits so they have the

ability to move and transport themselves

at great speed um that's why you see

many pictures of angels with with wings

on them they don't technically have

wings generally uh but they're able to

move you know a lot faster than we are

um because they're Spirits are not

encumbered by a human body they don't

grow old they don't age um so because

there's no physical body to get older

and older um have they always been yeah

no God at some point creat created them

uh this would have probably been before

the creation of the world and he created

this the these Legions of angels whose

purpose is describ the scripture to

minister to God's people um and you know

there are indications this is a bit of a

dispute in the Christian world but um

there are indications that we have a

guardian angel that is an angel who

specifically kind of guards over us and

watches over us um that's disputed it's

disputed there are people who disagree

with that I think there's two passages

in Scripture that suggest that it's real

um certain denominations uh certainly

believe in it the Orthodox Christian

Church believes at the time of baptism

you are assigned a um Guardian Angel um

um others believe that you have one from

the time that you're born or the time

the time that you become a Christian um

Peter there's some indication that Peter

had a guardian angel we see that in Scripture

Scripture

um when Jesus was talking about little

children he said don't you know don't

disregard these little kids because

their Angels see the face of God every

day well who are their angels that would

I think Guardian Angels interesting

watching over them so there's some P now

there is some scripture U that is

outside the the Protestant Bible and in

the Catholic Bible that talks more about

Guardian Angels so um um Catholic may

have a little bit stronger view of this

than Protestants would um but I think

there's sufficient evidence I talk about

this in my new book sufficient evidence

that Guardian Angels really do exist

what what we're getting way into it

already here but uh what what evidence

is there that they have Guardian Angels

first the um uh Jesus talking about the

fact that the children their

Angels uh uh see the face of God every

day so who is he referring to these

little children have Angels

um yeah that would be consistent if

Guardian Angels actually existed there's

another case where Peter escaped from

prison and everybody thought he was

still locked up and he goes he knocks on

a house to see his buddies and um the

servant hears his voice and says hey

Peter's here they say he can't be here

he's in prison uh maybe it's his

Angel okay well is that a guardian angel

they're talking about um now in Jewish

culture in the first

century uh they believed in guardian

angels and some people will say oh well

that's that's not saying according to

the Bible they are Guardian Angels

that's just a nod to the Jewish culture

of the day I'm not so sure I think um um

when you look at these couple passages

um and also what is the purpose of

angels but to minister to God's people

um I think it's logical that um guardian

angels may exist others disagree so it

is a point of contention what's what is

the what's the disagreement I believe it

I believe it we talked about my yeah my

444 experience I tell everybody this

yeah but uh it it um I think the

disagreement comes where people think

that the scriptural support for it is

not strong enough that if indeed we did

have guardi it would be more explicit

it' be clear in the Bible that we've got

guardian angels and there's no one verse

that I can point to that clear CLE L and

unequivocally says oh yeah everybody has

a guardian angel or every follower of

God or whoever has a guardian angel um

but I think the passages I just

mentioned at least two passages are

suggestive uh that Peter had his Angel

and these children had their angel who

are you talking about there if it's

theirs that that suggests that there

would be an angel who was assigned to

them so I I I I lean toward the idea

that there is a guardian angel for for folks

folks

so would it be safe to say that angels are

are

the arch nemesis the the the equivalent

of good to a

demon uh in a sense I mean they would

certainly be our protectors against

demonic influence and demonic uh

harassment and so forth um we see

instances of them as being um Warriors

I'll give you an example Billy Graham

tells this story there was a true story

of a a a missionary from Scotland who

was in a South Pacific island and um the

local tribe got very upset that he was

there to talk about Jesus and they went

to murder him and his family and they

came and surrounded his house and so him

and his family got in there and they

what can we we can pray that's all we

can do this crowd this mob is intent on

killing us and so they prayed all night

God protect us God protect us and the

mob by Dawn dissipated and nothing

happened well the leader of that mob

later became a Christian and that

missionary talked to him and said hey by

the way what happened that one night

when you came to kill us and the mob was

formed around our house why didn't you

kill us and he said well we we couldn't

do it with all those men you had guarden the

the

house he said what are you talking about

I didn't have any men guarding the house

he said no we saw them there were these

men they had swords that were drawn on

and they surrounded your house and we

figured there's no way we can go in and

attack these people in light of these

guards around the house well who are

they they were angels and God had sent

angels to protect them um and there's

stories like that I mean in my book I

document stories where people have

experiences with angels um I was talking

to a famous Theologian you know how

theologians are they're very kind of

buttoned down and and um uh he was

talking about growing up in a Pentecost

church family Pentecostal church and he

said yeah he said one day years and

years and years ago this local family

from our church was driving in their car

and their son was in the back seat he

was like 10 years old and we didn't have

seat belts back then and he opened the

door and he fell out of the car going

like 70 M an hour and they thought my

gosh our son's been killed and they

turned around they came back and there

he was standing there perfectly fine and

they said whatat happened' and he said

you didn't see the man catch

me and this Theologian began to weep he

be he got tears in his eyes he had to

take his handkerchief out and wipe his

eyes he said I missed that that that

that that being in a church that really

took this otherworldly stuff seriously

um because I believe it was an angel

that uh that saved him can I tell you

something I don't generally tell people

absolutely there's like a confessional

but um I was visited by an Angel when I

was a child I was a Youngster and I had

a dream it's the only dream I remember

from my childhood it was more Vivid more

real more colorful than any dream I'd

ever had and an angel appeared to me and

I just knew intuitively he was from

Heaven he was and he started telling me

about heaven and the beauty and the

Wonder and the joy of heaven and I'm

kind of nodding along we're in the

kitchen of our house and I'm kind of

nodding along I said well you know I'm

going to go there

someday and he looked at me said how do you

you

know so what do you mean how do I know

I'm a I'm a good kid I I I obey my

parents pretty much I I've been to

Sunday school a couple of times I I I I

I I try to be nice to people and and he

looked at me and he said that doesn't

matter and this cold chill went through

me it's like how can that not matter all

my efforts to be good all my efforts to

be obedient that you're telling me they

don't matter and he said someday you'll

understand and that was the end of the

dream 16 years later that prophecy came

true when my

wife dragged me to a church as an

atheist January 20

1980 and the pastor got up and he talked

about heaven and he talked about heaven

is not a place that we earn our way

there and try to achieve something

somehow be good enough to enter into

heaven none of us is good enough to

enter into the presence of God in heaven

forgiveness and eternal life in heaven

is a free gift of God's grace because he

loves you You're Made In His Image he

wants to spend eternity with you he

offers forgiveness and eternal life as a

free gift of his grace and my first

thought was that's what that angel was

talking about 16 years ago when he said

someday I'll understand and I got it

that day I didn't believe it took a

while but that's the first day I got oh

I get it now that's what Christianity is

about it's not earning your way to

heaven it's receiving a free gift of

forgiveness and eternal life Wow how old

were you when that you know I'd say um

maybe 10 11 sometime 10 11 12 somewhere

in there um it was funny at my

ordination when I was being ordained as

a pastor years ago I thought do I even

tell this story I'm going think I'm nuts

you know and I told it and they all yeah

okay I mean that's part for the course

we all have stories like that and not

exactly but we all have experiences of

God and but uh yeah that was uh that was

my experience with an angel what what

did the angel look like um he it was a

it was male and by the way um I did read

some scholarly articles U from Jewish

writers uh saying that uh angels can be

female but in scripture they're all male

uh doesn't mean they couldn't manifest

themselves because they're Spirits so

they can manifest himself as a male I

assume as a female but all of them in

scripture are male um he he was a he he

had a soft glow to him um uh didn't have

wings um uh didn't look like a cartoon

character but there was a gentle glow to

him that just intuitively I I knew oh

this is an angel I'm talking to an angel

so looked human he looked human exactly

and even the Bible talks about the fact

that uh

sometimes when we provide Hospitality to

someone we're really providing

Hospitality to an Angel um unbeknownst

to us and so angels can manifest

themselves as PE for all I know you're

an angel I don't know but but they can

manifest themselves as

humanik well I told you about my

experience in Sedona yeah you know with

the with the with the with the gate

guard yeah I think that's may have been

what that was could very well be what do

you think could very well be I mean now

we also have instances where demons will

um you know Bible says Satan can can

appear as a

um some a counterfeit of light in other

words he can he can pass himself off as

being from God or whatever so we have to

be careful because um that's why we have

the Bible I think to kind of be a a plum

line to test is this legit or not does

demons can they can possess people they

can influence people they can harass

people they can um um appear in

different ways I think we talk about

ghosts I think ghosts are demons um

because a technical definition of a

ghost is someone who dies in their

Spirit refuses to enter into the next

life well that's not a

Biblical description of what can happen

so if If ghosts are not biblical in that

sense maybe they're demonic and I I

believe they are I believe that you know

are ghosts real well there are some

instances where we see apparitions that

I believe are ghostly apparitions that

have been quite real um but I believe they're

they're

satanic I've had encounters with ghosts

actually the guy filming this right now

uh who's behind the scenes here had the

exact same experience as us uh in the

old Civil War cabin and um I've had a

couple of experiences we caught it on

camera but wow yeah but what are what

are some of

the capabilities that humans would have

that Angels do not well um we have uh

physical mobility in the sense of we

have we are a body we are a spirit who

has a body so God created us it's a

dualistic thing we we are um Spirit but

we're also physical we also have a

physical body

that's an advantage in some ways I think

um um we're

also I I think in the pecking order

we're actually above Angels um really in

many ways yeah I think U um well

actually in the Psalms it says we're

created a little bit lower than the

Angels um but I think there are ways in

which we kind of have capabilities that

Angels maybe don't have and I I mean in

terms of having a physical body gives us

certain advantages that a a spirit that

doesn't have a body uh would not have Okay

Okay

Okay well that was that was a great

discussion great little warmup but um

well Lee I have a uh I have a a a

patreon account that's a subscription

account and those are our our top

supporters yeah and uh so one of the

things I do they've been with us since

the beginning is I always offer them the

opportunity to ask each guest a question

oh great and um

so we had a ton of questions for you

yeah this one is from uh Jared

Russo are Christians guaranteed heaven

once they confess with their mouth and

believe it in their heart as

Jesus Paul and many others have said if

not what have Christians done that

caused God to say I never knew you like

it says in the Bible Well a definition

of a Christian would be someone who has

done exactly what he said in other words

someone who confesses that um Jesus is

Lord Jesus Is God repents of their sin

turns from their sin admits that

receives this free gift of forgiveness

and eternal life that Jesus purchased

for us on the cross when he died as our

substitute to pay for all of our sins

when that happens when a person the

Bible says it's a the verse that brought

me to Faith John 1:12 but as many as

received him to them he gave the right

to become children of God even to those

who believe in his name so the formula

there is believe plus receive equals

become so we believe based on um the

data of I believe anyway based on the

data of history that Jesus is who he

claimed to be he proved it by returning

from the dead um so I believe that but I

had to take another step I had to

receive and receiving is confessing that

Jesus is who he claimed to be he is God

is Lord um admitting my sin receiving

forgiveness from Jesus when I do that I

become a Christian um someone who is

told Someday by Jesus be gone I never

knew you would not have been a Christian

because a Christian to be a Christian

would need to receive Jesus as their

forgiver and leader through a prayer

like that um and and once that happens I

believe once say always saved once you

are um adopted as a Son of God that way

then he never disowns his children uh

and so you're safely in the kingdom of

God and that when you pass from this

world you'll ultimately end up in heaven

um um so Jesus is not talking about th

he's talking about those who are

hypocrites who claim to be his followers

but who aren't really his followers

those are the ones that are in trouble

the ones who who profess um um certain

things and claim to be holy and claim to

be righteous and so and um Jesus says in

the end I never knew you um sorry be

gone could

you could you give me an example of of

that is there anybody in in in history

that that you think that is I mean who I

guess what I'm asking is who claims to

be a follower of Jesus but doesn't

this is going to sound bad and I don't

know the right way to put it

but because I do believe in Jesus and

and I

do I think about him all the time and I

think about you know that old saying

what would Jesus do I yeah I think

about I I have that in my head all the

time now and then when I hear something like

that for whatever reason I always have

my head is it yeah is that me am I

really okay am I do I really believe

that do I really believe in Jesus this

is what happened to my wife after she

came to Faith um she kept wondering am I

really okay with God am I really saved

am I really going to heaven and so she

kept praying repeatedly this prayer God

I believe you are who you claim to be I

believe you're Lord um um come into my

life change my life change my character

changed my values um I received this

free gift she kept praying these prayers

and her who had led her to the Lord came

up to her one day and said are you

calling God a

liar no I'm not calling him a liar well

the Bible says but as many as received

him to them he gave the right to become

children of God even to those who

believe in his name if you believe and

you've received then you have become a

child of God according to scripture and

you don't need to worry and you always

can go back to that I can go back to

November the 8th of 1981 3:00 in the

afternoon after a 2-year investigation

where I TR try to use my journalism

training and legal training to disprove

Christianity and I came to conclusion no

it's true Jesus not only claimed to be

the Son of God he proved it by returning

from the dead and the historical

documentation is

overwhelming and that's when I go back

to that moment where I realize I'm in

deep weeds because I am a sinner of

Sinners I live an immoral narcissistic

obscene life and I need God I confess

that and I admit that and I turn from

that and I want to receive you as my

forgiver and as my leader I want to

receive your free gift of forgiveness

and eternal life sometimes I need to go

back to that and say did I do that at

3:00 in the afternoon November the 8th

of 1981 yep I did I'm okay um has God

changed my life since then absolutely so

I have evidence of it if there's no

evidence of a life Chang then you really

have to ask has God really taken root in

my life have I really received him as my

forgiver but also my Lord in other words

someone who leads my life is he really

leading my life so I can look back and

say God's changed my character my values

my worldview My Philosophy my attitude

my parenting my marriage I all these

things over time over time God's changed

for the good so I have evidence that I

can look at and say no I can see God how

in your because the Bible says in second

Corinthians that when a person receives

this free gift of God's forgiveness and

Grace they become a new creature the old

is gone the new has come it doesn't mean

we become perfect we're still struggling

in a world of sin to you know to try to

follow Jesus as best we can we still

make mistakes we still take one step

forward and two steps back sometimes

that's okay but the general orientation

of our life ought to be different it

ought to be it ought to be much more

pointed toward God as being the leader

of my life and so when when you look at

that kind of evidence when you look at

that moment I can go back to and say yep

that's the moment um then it dispels

those fears that oh somehow this didn't

take or somehow I don't know that I'm

okay you know I think that

um well I don't think I know cuz I was

one of them it

how can a I think a lot of people always

people that are on the fence people that

don't believe I think they m a big

question was for me is is how does how

does a good person who lives a

honest uh life filled with integrity and

and and love and you know all the good

virtues what if they didn't have the

opportunity to yeah to learn about Jesus

yeah and

and to believe him and and when I

interviewed um our mutual friend John

Burke yeah um I didn't even ask him that

question but it it in interviewing [Music]

[Music]

him I think I learned the answer and it

it seems like everybody gets the

opportunity um to to believe and he I

remember he was talking about hellish

ndes yeah hellish near experiences where

you actually go to like Howard Storm's

case famous case yes yeah

and it's it's and so even that guy who

didn't believe if this is the correct

person who didn't believe any of it he

was an

atheist Christ showed up in when he was

when he was dying and and and he was in

hell and he did have the opportunity to

to say that I believe yeah here's my

hesitation on that um

because I know Howard's story and you're

right he was an atheist he died

physically he was clinically dead and um

demons were mauling him he said I was

like roadkill and he called out to God

save me and this orb of light came and

literally saved him it was so profound

then he eventually recovered from his um

clinical death and he he not only

renounced his atheism he became a pastor

so he's a pastor today that's how found

that was to him but here's the problem

he wasn't clinically he wasn't dead like

he's never returning he was clinically

dead but he was going to come back and

so I have a little hesitation in terms

of um saying that that's a universal

experience okay um here's what I would

say based on what I understand best in

scripture especially the Old Testament

Jeremiah the New Testament Hebrews

um first of all none of us lives good

lives we're all sinners

we've all screwed up we've all made

mistakes not just made mistakes we've

we've Pro I could say this I think we've

all done things we knew they were wrong

before we did them and we did them

anyway I have you have right we all have

we've sinned and so yes we do good

things too but that doesn't negate the

sin it's like if you rob a bank and then

you live a perfect life do you think the

government would come up to you and say

yeah we're going to forget about that

bank robbery we got all this evidence

you commit no you're guilty of that bank

right you need to pay the penalty for

robbing that bank even though you did

all these good things it doesn't Wipe

Out the bad things that you've done and

so um so none of us is good we all none

of us deserves to go to heaven we we're

all Sinners um that's number one uh

number two I would say that um anyone

anywhere in any culture at any time who

calls out to the one true God and says

God help me SA save me like Howard did

when he had that near-death experience

said God help me I I I can't save myself

I need help I need you to come to my

rescue I think anybody in any culture

who prays a prayer like that to the one

true God God will provide a way for them

to find Redemption and I'll give you an

example I I knew a guy later in his life

he grew up in India and in the province

in India where he lived uh it was

illegal to share the Christian message

he was mentored in the Hindu Faith by some

some

gurus he got to be about 17 18 years old

and he said wait a

minute I look at these Hindu scriptures

they all contradict each other I they

can't they can't all be true they they

contradict say God I'm I'm at a loss I

if you're there I want to know you I

want to meet you I want to experience

you God if you're there show me and in a

remarkable set of circumstances God

brought a couple couple of missionaries

into his life shared the message of

Jesus with him he came to Faith In Jesus

he later immigrated to the United States

and he became a member of the church

where I was a pastor at in Chicago wow

so there's an example of how God uh

intervened in the life of this guy he he

probably didn't even know the name of

Jesus he just knew I'm a mess I need

help I need rescuing and God re God's

not playing hide and seek from us he not

hiding from us um the other phenomenon

that going on that I write about in in

my new

book is that in the Middle East in many

Middle Eastern countries it's illegal to

share the Christian

message um and so what is God

doing he's bringing dreams about Jesus

to these people this is a phenomenon

that is sweeping the Middle

East people are not going to sleep as a

Muslim meeting Jesus in the dream

becoming Christians that's not how it

happens because that could be just a sub

experience no there's corroboration to

these dreams so I'll give you an example

it's a woman named no mother of eight

Muslim lives in Cairo she one night she

goes she has a Jesus Dream It's the most

profound Vivid dream unlike any other

she's ever had and Jesus appears to her

and she feels the love and the grace and

the forgiveness and the kindness of

Jesus just radiating from him and she's

overwhelmed by she never felt anything

like it and the walking along a a lake

and and she says Jesus tell me more

about you and he says my friend will

tell you and she said who's your friend

and he gestures to another person she

hadn't even noticed because she was so

mesmerized by Jesus a guy was walking

with them along the Lakeside said my

friend will tell you she wakes up from

the dream the next day she goes to the

crowded Marketplace in Cairo she's

walking in this crowded mic she sees the

man from her dream she goes up to him

you you were in my dream he said whoa

whoa he said what what are you talking

about you same face same clothes same GL

you were the man in my dreams and he

said did you have a dream about Jesus

she said yes he was a missionary

undercover in Cairo he wasn't going to

go to the crowded Marketplace on that

Friday afternoon because it's chaotic

but he felt God had a mission for him

and he went that day he met that woman

and he took her aside and opened the

Bible and shared the message of Jesus to

her so that's external

confirmation that it's not just

something going on in her head but this

was a special dream that points to

something outside that dream see what I

say mean in terms of coroporation that's

how these are happening and I'm telling

you Sean these are so common in the

Middle East today that sometimes you see

an ad in the Cairo newspaper and it says

call this number and we'll tell you

about the man in white that you met in

your dream last night are you serious

how are you finding this stuff out well

Tom Doyle who is an expert on the Middle

East and travels all over the Middle

East I interviewed him for my new book

um coming out um seeing the Supernatural

and um he describes this whole he said

Lee I could pick up the phone right now

and call Saudi Arabia called Jordan and

gave you five more stories from just

this past week this is happening all

over the Middle East well that tells me

something about God it tells me

something he's seeking us first that

he's not playing hideand-seek for from

us but that but that he's reaching out

to us and it's interesting when people

say well what about the guy who lives on

an island who never hears the name of

Jesus that always comes from someone who

has heard the name of Jesus you know and

my question to them is have you

responded have you respond to what you

know about Jesus and received him as

your forgiver and your leader um because

that's not an issue for you um but it is

an issue for some people and I believe

that anyone who calls out the one true

God saying God help me save me I I I

realize I've messed up things I I I want

to know you are you there tell me show

me I believe God will find a way through

a dream through a missionary whatever to

make that happen when you

say when you say this gentleman took

this woman and gave her the message of

Jesus in one day yeah

what what is the what is that message

yeah it's a great question you know the

Bible is almost 800,000 words and you

know if you try to read the Bible it can

mess your mind up I mean it's it's

difficult I mean there's a lot of

messages there's a lot of messages in

the Bible it's a lot there's a lot there

and to really understand it takes a lot

of study and so forth

but I can summarize the central message

that God wants us to know from the Bible

in one verse 21

words and the verse is Romans 6:23

which says simply for the wages of sin

is death but the free gift of God is

eternal life through Christ Jesus our

lord so the wages of sin is death what

we've earned what we deserve because

we've ignored God we've blasphemed

against him we've violated his commands

we've turned our back on him the what we

the wage what we've earned because of

that is death which means Eternal

separation from God um we'll pay for our

own sins separate from God forever but

it says there's a another part to the

story the free gift of God is eternal

life through Christ Jesus your lord in

other words it is you can't earn it

because if if you try to earn a gift

it's not a gift anymore it's a wage no

it's not a wage it's a gift the free

gift of God is eternal how do you how do

you receive a gift you know this is

Christmas you know there's a bunch of

gifts probably under Christmas trees all

over the world they don't be become

yours until you receive them and so when

we receive that gift we become a child

of God forever um you know there's a lot

of different religions in the world they

all contradict each other um but

Christianity is different from I think

there's 4,200 religions in the world

something like that yeah I think that's

right um every other Faith system I've

thousands every other one is spelled D

you got to do something to try to earn

your way to God use a Tobit prayer wheel

go on a pilgrimage to Mecca give alms to

the poor do good deeds what do do do

something and maybe someday maybe maybe

not but maybe you'll do enough to earn

your way to heaven that's how every

other religion functions Christianity is

not spelled do o it's spelled D o n e

it's done Jesus said in the cross it's

finished it's done he paid the penalty

we deserved for the sins that we've

committed in other words we don't have

to pay the penalty he paid it on the

cross on our behalf and all we have to

do and he offers forgiveness as a free

gift we just need to receive it in

Repentance and faith I'm sorry for how

I've lived I don't I don't want to be

separated from God I I want to know you

personally how do I do that I receive

this free gift of your grace that's what

Grace is it by definition it is free and

um so that's the difference um between

every other religion and Christianity

because they all contradict each other

if you I have a good friend who's a

Muslim and he comes over to my house and

we barbecue and we're buddies and um uh

so I've read the Quran and you know in

the Quran in Surah 4 verse 156 it says

Jesus didn't die on the cross and

therefore he wasn't

resurrected um the Quran also says that

um um God does not have a son uh the

Quran also says that no one can bear the

sins of another specifically the Quran

says that okay those are three things I

need to believe to be a Christian now

maybe the Quran is right maybe that's

maybe that's correct or maybe

Christianity is correct but they can't

both be correct they they conflict they

can't both be correct and so I look at

the evidence that Jesus did die on the

cross and that he was resurrected from

the dead the historical data that

convinced me that he not only claimed to

be the Son of God he backed it up by

returning from the dead and I look at

that and I go because of that I can

trust that Jesus is who he claimed to be

so I say he his message is the one that

I want to respond to his message of

Grace and hope and Redemption this gift

of God that he wants to give all of us

why was why was Jesus sent here I think

a couple of reasons the in what let me

yeah let's start with

this what is Jesus or who is

Jesus God has existed from eternity past

as the godhead God the Father God the

son God the Holy Spirit they have always

existed in a perfect love

relationship and so um God when he

decided to create humankind

because they're in this love

relationship he wanted us to experience

love and so he gave us free will what

have we done with the Free Will we've

turned our back on God we've denied him

we look at the world it's a mess uh

we've used our Free Will and given God

the middle finger basically um and so

God loves us he made us in His image we

are made in his which means not

physically but um our souls are

fashioned in the image of God and he

loves us and so he said I'm going to

send Jesus into the world to be born of

a virgin um fully God still and fully

man and his ultimate purpose is

Easter his ultimate purpose is to die to

Die Why to die as our

substitute who says I'm going to pay the

penalty you deserve because I love you

I'll pay the penalty you don't have to

if you'll receive this gift of

forgiveness as a free gift of Grace I'll

give you an example uh there's a story I

don't think it's a true story it's more

of a parable uh of a judge and he's an

honest judge he's a righteous judge and

one day a woman is brought in front of

him on a charge of

shoplifting and it's his own

daughter and he says what is the

evidence against my

daughter and they present the evidence

that she's clearly guilty clearly guilty

well now what does he do he loves his

daughter it's his only daughter he loves

his daughter but he's a righteous judge

he can't just wink and say ah yeah never

mind I forgive you um forget the whole

thing he can't do that because if he did

that he would not be a righteous judge

he would not be an honest judge so what

does he do he looks out at his daughter

says I find you guilty I'm sorry but

you're guilty and I have to say that I

have to declare it you are guilty and I

sentenced you to jail for 60 days and a

fine or a fine of $10,000 well he knows

she doesn't have $10,000 she's going to

have to be separated from him in jail

for 60 days but what else could he do

he's an honest judge you know what he

does he takes off his

robe and he walks down in front of the

bench and he opens his

checkbook and and he writes out a check for

for

$10,000 and he rips it off and he says I

want to give this to you so you can pay

the penalty that you deserve but I'm

going to pay it for you now she has a

choice she could turn it down say no no

no I I'd rather go to jail I don't think

she' do that I think she'd say thank you

Father for loving me so much that you

paid the penalty I deserve because I'm

guilty and she receives that check and

she's set free that is a an ology for

what goes on with Jesus why Jesus came

into the world to die in our place as

our substitute so that our sins could be

wiped out because only perfect people

can go to heaven and so we have to be

forgiven completely forgiven and we have

to be clothed in the righteousness of

God which also happens when we receive

him as our forgiver and leader and and

then the doors of Heaven are flung open

for us but that was the only way if

because God is a right just judge he he

is Holy he can't just wink and say yeah

yeah yeah forget I know you've I know

you've done all these evil things in

your life but yeah yeah yeah let's just

forget about no they have to be paid for

um if I lend you my

car and you're gone for a day and you

come back it's got a big scratch down

it I could say oh I just forgive you but

then I got to pay for the scratch I got

to pay to have it repaired or if I don't

when I sell the car I'm going to take a

loss for the amount equivalent to fixing

that scratch I'm G to have to pay the

penalty in one way or the other I can't

just wink and say forget it so God can't

just wink and say I'm going to ignore

the fact that you're Sinners no no no

because that would be a lie and he can't

lie so do you see so the purpose of Christmas

Christmas

ultimately is Easter now along the way

God showed us how to live life you know

I mean I mean um he talked about how we

should care for others how we should um

prioritize people who are hurting how we

should reach out in love to people who

are who are uh in need of our love and

our and our kindness and so forth he he

showed us how to live the perfect life

but you know if he only did that none of

us would get to heaven he had to Easter

had to happen he had to go he had to not

only die on that cross but then be

resurrected from the dead so that when

we die we can be resurrected as well

so I I got a a few questions one is I

want to Rattle them off just so I

remember them one is a difference

between father son Holy Spirit yeah

another one is it's and and we'll come

back to that but you know another one is

and I would like to address this right

now is it is it who is Jesus or who was

Jesus uh who is Jesus he is still alive

he is still yeah he is he is still with

us so to speak I talked to him this

morning we talked to him at at breakfast

when we prayed um so he is still who he

is uh now he was United with a human

form at the time of his Incarnation on

um and born on Christmas of a virgin um

and when the Holy Spirit overcame Mary

um it says uh therefore the child was

born holy so that that process of the

Holy Spirit um um um leading to the

birth of Jesus um made it possible for

him to be without sin uh he was made

holy somehow we don't understand the

entire process the Incarnation is

mindboggling it's the Timeless becoming

time bound it's the Eternal becoming

time bound it's the immaterial becoming

material I mean it's beyond our ability

to understand but clearly scripture says

because of the way the Incarnation took

place it means that Jesus was holy Jesus

was without sin so if if God is Jesus's

father yeah then who is Joseph Joseph

would be um um is he the caretaker he

would be an Earthly quote unquote father

just like if you adopted a son um you're

not the biological father but you're the

father you're an adopted father yeah be

more of that yeah

okay and in I have another question I mean

mean

in how do I say this and I don't want to

say there are rules

that the other

realm has to abide by it seems like

there are rules that that

that good and evil need to abide by that

that demons demons and angels and God

and Jesus and good and

evil the the farther I dig into this

stuff it seems like there are a lot of a

lot of rules that I don't understand

well there certainly God restrains evil

and if if to some degree if if there are specific

why are there rules well I I wouldn't

posture it as rules I would posture it

more as um um God rules over all it

seems like there's some kind of some kind

kind of

law okay I see where you're going yeah

there there is a moral law like like

this morning I told

you and I don't know the laws yeah but

you know I told you I've interviewed an ex

yeah um I've dug into these things a

little bit a lot of it I don't understand even this morning I had

understand even this morning I had mentioned right before we had breakfast

mentioned right before we had breakfast we we're building that new studio I went

we we're building that new studio I went out there they're pouring the foundation

out there they're pouring the foundation and the Footers and uh me and and um one

and the Footers and uh me and and um one of the guys that has worked here the

of the guys that has worked here the longest went out and and we we we we

longest went out and and we we we we wrapped Bibles up so that they were

wrapped Bibles up so that they were protected and then we we we put them in

protected and then we we we put them in each corner of the foundation that's

each corner of the foundation that's awesome

awesome because maybe it's Superstition maybe

because maybe it's Superstition maybe it's not I think I think it's a great

it's not I think I think it's a great gesture just to say we want our

gesture just to say we want our foundation to be God yeah I love that

foundation to be God yeah I love that but but what I'm getting at is you know

but but what I'm getting at is you know I I I've heard of priests doing that

I I I've heard of priests doing that I've heard of I've heard of that it may

I've heard of I've heard of that it may keep demons out and hey if there's any

keep demons out and hey if there's any chance of that then I'm going to take

chance of that then I'm going to take advantage of it and I and I do I do I

advantage of it and I and I do I do I mean it's symbolic and I do think and

mean it's symbolic and I do think and and and I it seems there's some sort of

and and I it seems there's some sort of law that all of

law that all of these I for lack of a better term

these I for lack of a better term entities need to follow

entities need to follow well I mean when you told me about

well I mean when you told me about bearing those Bibles in the foundation I

bearing those Bibles in the foundation I just thought that's a great symbol of

just thought that's a great symbol of the fact that we want our Min our

the fact that we want our Min our organization as best we can yeah we're

organization as best we can yeah we're going to make mistakes we're going to

going to make mistakes we're going to mess things up from time to time but we

mess things up from time to time but we want ultimately to for God to be honored

want ultimately to for God to be honored by what we do M um that's one thing I

by what we do M um that's one thing I don't know and I would you know we can

don't know and I would you know we can kind get into the realm of superstition

kind get into the realm of superstition at some point and say does that mean

at some point and say does that mean that demons cannot somehow penetrate

that demons cannot somehow penetrate that because the found I I I I think

that because the found I I I I think that's more of a um Superstition than it

that's more of a um Superstition than it would be um now it could be that if you

would be um now it could be that if you are declaring to the world that is our

are declaring to the world that is our hope is our intention is our desire that

hope is our intention is our desire that our

our organization be honoring to God that's

organization be honoring to God that's going to be a deterrent to demonic

going to be a deterrent to demonic activity let me let me bring up another

activity let me let me bring up another example I had mentioned uh my friend

example I had mentioned uh my friend Eddie Penney at lunch and I and uh and

Eddie Penney at lunch and I and uh and and he was a Christmas episode yeah and

and he was a Christmas episode yeah and I don't even know if we he's been

I don't even know if we he's been somewhat of a mentor to me not somewhat

somewhat of a mentor to me not somewhat he has been a mentor to me um in in in

he has been a mentor to me um in in in in my journey to Faith and and I don't

in my journey to Faith and and I don't know if he said this on the show or if

know if he said this on the show or if this was a phone call I can't remember

this was a phone call I can't remember sometimes I get you know the lines get

sometimes I get you know the lines get blurred here but and and he's not the

blurred here but and and he's not the only one that I've heard say this but he

only one that I've heard say this but he has he has talked

has he has talked about demons in his house um we spoke

about demons in his house um we spoke about exorcisms you know and and and

about exorcisms you know and and and people that are levitating and and

people that are levitating and and whatnot and you know Eddie's Eddie I

whatnot and you know Eddie's Eddie I remember him people say in the name of

remember him people say in the name of Jesus Christ leave my house and they

Jesus Christ leave my house and they have to leave your house so that would

have to leave your house so that would be that would be one of the one of the

be that would be one of the one of the laws that and that goes back to the

laws that and that goes back to the Bible that goes back to Jesus um um

Bible that goes back to Jesus um um casting out I one of the things that

casting out I one of the things that Jesus is best known for are not only

Jesus is best known for are not only Miracles but exorcisms uh casting out

Miracles but exorcisms uh casting out demons I think half of Jesus activity in

demons I think half of Jesus activity in in the gospel of Mark involves casting

in the gospel of Mark involves casting out demons and so forth so how did he do

out demons and so forth so how did he do that he you know it it was it is

that he you know it it was it is something that he instructed his

something that he instructed his followers to do

followers to do to um um Challenge and and and confront

to um um Challenge and and and confront the demons um in the name of Jesus to

the demons um in the name of Jesus to depart so that comes from the Bible so I

depart so that comes from the Bible so I mean do I believe that demon possession

mean do I believe that demon possession exists yes and in my book um coming out

exists yes and in my book um coming out in March I mean I deal I have a whole

in March I mean I deal I have a whole chapter on that uh yes I believe it can

chapter on that uh yes I believe it can happen I don't believe it happens to

happen I don't believe it happens to Christians because we are by definition

Christians because we are by definition indwell by the holy spirit so we can't

indwell by the holy spirit so we can't be indwelled by a demon at the same time

be indwelled by a demon at the same time but

but Satan can Hector us he can harass us and

Satan can Hector us he can harass us and that's why we want to as the Bible talks

that's why we want to as the Bible talks about put on the full armor of God to

about put on the full armor of God to protect ourselves from that through

protect ourselves from that through understanding and reading the scriptures

understanding and reading the scriptures through prayer and so forth um so yeah

through prayer and so forth um so yeah that's a good example of want call it a

that's a good example of want call it a rule but it's a it's a um an action we

rule but it's a it's a um an action we can take to cast out the Demonic um as

can take to cast out the Demonic um as Jesus did in his ministry so that would

Jesus did in his ministry so that would be a good example um

be a good example um but I think sometimes um you know it's

but I think sometimes um you know it's hard to

hard to um to draw a line between what can be a

um to draw a line between what can be a superstitious belief versus what's a

superstitious belief versus what's a Biblical belief and so I can I can look

Biblical belief and so I can I can look at that and say is casting out a demon

at that and say is casting out a demon in the name of Jesus is that a rule that

in the name of Jesus is that a rule that um God uh approves of yeah because we

um God uh approves of yeah because we have examples in scripture of Jesus

have examples in scripture of Jesus casting out demons and we want to do

casting out demons and we want to do that in his name um but if you tell me

that in his name um but if you tell me that oh if you um U wear a crucifix

that oh if you um U wear a crucifix around your neck that it will ward off

around your neck that it will ward off the Demonic I don't see that in

the Demonic I don't see that in scripture um so I I always go back to

scripture um so I I always go back to can I is it in the Bible can I trust it

can I is it in the Bible can I trust it um that gives me a plum line it gives me

um that gives me a plum line it gives me something that I can I can speculate

something that I can I can speculate about other stuff you know um but that's

about other stuff you know um but that's just me speculating and what does that

just me speculating and what does that really matter uh I think the Bible has

really matter uh I think the Bible has more weight than that and what what

more weight than that and what what version of the Bible do you read

version of the Bible do you read I read several I think it's healthy to

I read several I think it's healthy to read several sometimes to get a

read several sometimes to get a different little bit translation

different little bit translation difference I like the NIV um um that's

difference I like the NIV um um that's my publisher also publishes that version

my publisher also publishes that version it's a great version the ESV is a good

it's a great version the ESV is a good version um the new King James version is

version um the new King James version is a good one the new um um what's it

a good one the new um um what's it called the um uh NLT the New Living

called the um uh NLT the New Living Translation that's a really good

Translation that's a really good translation so what people have to

translation so what people have to understand though is there there's a

understand though is there there's a difference between the Bible

difference between the Bible translation and a

translation and a paraphrase so a translation goes back to

paraphrase so a translation goes back to the original as best we have them the

the original as best we have them the the existing documents uh in the Greek

the existing documents uh in the Greek and in the Hebrew um and translates

and in the Hebrew um and translates those into modern language that we can

those into modern language that we can understand that's a that's a translation

understand that's a that's a translation there are also things like um a thing

there are also things like um a thing called the message which is a Bible but

called the message which is a Bible but it's a paraphrase it's a Well educated

it's a paraphrase it's a Well educated Christian scholar who kind of puts it in

Christian scholar who kind of puts it in vernacular that maybe we can understand

vernacular that maybe we can understand better and maybe he takes a little

better and maybe he takes a little liberty with it and that's okay because

liberty with it and that's okay because it's consistent with what the Bible says

it's consistent with what the Bible says so there's a difference there and I

so there's a difference there and I encourage people to use a

encourage people to use a translation uh um because that is

translation uh um because that is staying true to what was originally

staying true to what was originally written as best we can determine it by

written as best we can determine it by the way talking about I want to give you

the way talking about I want to give you a little anecdote

a little anecdote um because we talked at breakfast about

um because we talked at breakfast about numbers and how numbers can be really

numbers and how numbers can be really interesting sometimes and you know it's

interesting sometimes and you know it's very commonly said that the number of

very commonly said that the number of Satan is

Satan is 666 friend of mine is named Dr Daniel B

666 friend of mine is named Dr Daniel B Wallace he's a professor at Dallas

Wallace he's a professor at Dallas Seminary he's probably the world's

Seminary he's probably the world's leading expert on the manuscripts of the

leading expert on the manuscripts of the New Testament and he his ministry is to

New Testament and he his ministry is to travel the world and to go to museums

travel the world and to go to museums and seminaries and places that have

and seminaries and places that have ancient manuscripts and to take high

ancient manuscripts and to take high quality photographs of them for Scholars

quality photographs of them for Scholars so we can preserve them

so we can preserve them forever and I was talking to him once

forever and I was talking to him once and I said um he said yeah I discovered

and I said um he said yeah I discovered something interesting I said what he

something interesting I said what he said I took the oldest manuscript we've

said I took the oldest manuscript we've got of the Book of

got of the Book of Revelation and I examin it under a

Revelation and I examin it under a microscope and the number of Satan is

microscope and the number of Satan is not

not 666 it's

616 H I said really and it always stuck in my mind I called them back about a

in my mind I called them back about a year later I said did I understand you

year later I said did I understand you right when you said you examined under a

right when you said you examined under a microscope and the real number is 616 he

microscope and the real number is 616 he said yeah so I mean that's that's why

said yeah so I mean that's that's why it's important that we go back to the

it's important that we go back to the sources as best we can um you know the

sources as best we can um you know the original documents are all lost they're

original documents are all lost they're all reduced to dust because they were

all reduced to dust because they were made of Papyrus and and and so forth

made of Papyrus and and and so forth Scrolls and and um but we have reliable

Scrolls and and um but we have reliable documents because handwritten copies

documents because handwritten copies were made we have thousands of copies

were made we have thousands of copies that we can compare and contrast and we

that we can compare and contrast and we can come to a conclusion about what the

can come to a conclusion about what the original said and that's the

original said and that's the translations we have um so are all the

translations we have um so are all the different versions different

different versions different translations or is this different or is

translations or is this different or is is there more than that um different

is there more than that um different versions of what the Bible of the that

versions of what the Bible of the that you see in a store for instance yeah

you see in a store for instance yeah they're all translations but a

they're all translations but a translation committee may choose a

translation committee may choose a certain word um say the Greek says this

certain word um say the Greek says this we're going to translate it this way um

we're going to translate it this way um and another group might get together of

and another group might get together of Scholars and say yeah that's good but we

Scholars and say yeah that's good but we think it's a little sharper a little

think it's a little sharper a little better to translate it this way okay and

better to translate it this way okay and so they're very careful about that

so they're very careful about that there's a Bible called the ne Bible I

there's a Bible called the ne Bible I think it's the new English translation

think it's the new English translation Daniel B Wallace who I mentioned is the

Daniel B Wallace who I mentioned is the editor of that that has thousands

editor of that that has thousands literally thousands of footnotes that

literally thousands of footnotes that explain why they translate the Greek and

explain why they translate the Greek and the Hebrew in the way they did so it

the Hebrew in the way they did so it says you know we had a choice here we

says you know we had a choice here we could have used this word in English or

could have used this word in English or we could use this one this is why we

we could use this one this is why we chose this one we just want you to know

chose this one we just want you to know you know we could have chosen this other

you know we could have chosen this other one but these are the reasons why so

one but these are the reasons why so it's really a handy Bible to have I've

it's really a handy Bible to have I've got one I refer to it all the

got one I refer to it all the time I want to go back to my other

time I want to go back to my other question too

question too about the father son the Holy Spirit

about the father son the Holy Spirit yeah what what is what is the difference

yeah what what is what is the difference uh there's a relational component to it

uh there's a relational component to it in other words

in other words God the father has existed from eternity

God the father has existed from eternity past God the son has existed from

past God the son has existed from eternity past well that Rel that refers

eternity past well that Rel that refers to a relational how how they relate to

to a relational how how they relate to each other God the Holy Spirit has

each other God the Holy Spirit has existed from um um eternity past and so

existed from um um eternity past and so in a in in some ways they have some

in a in in some ways they have some different functions in the sense that it

different functions in the sense that it was Jesus that came and um Left Behind

was Jesus that came and um Left Behind The Perks of Heaven Was Born Among Us on

The Perks of Heaven Was Born Among Us on Christmas um live the perfect life went

Christmas um live the perfect life went to the Cross to pay the penalty for our

to the Cross to pay the penalty for our sin that is a role that he fulfilled as

sin that is a role that he fulfilled as part of the godhead um with the

part of the godhead um with the permission of and the and the leading of

permission of and the and the leading of the father and the Holy Spirit so there

the father and the Holy Spirit so there there there's one God but three persons

there there's one God but three persons and how do I know that because if you

and how do I know that because if you read scripture you can see it teaches

read scripture you can see it teaches four

four things the father is God the son is God

things the father is God the son is God the holy spirit is God and there is one

the holy spirit is God and there is one God those four teachings are clear in

God those four teachings are clear in scripture and so how that plays out is

scripture and so how that plays out is kind of a mind Bender but we can know

kind of a mind Bender but we can know that they are all God they are God there

that they are all God they are God there is one God and that is God in three

is one God and that is God in three persons it's been described to me it's

persons it's been described to me it's like water ice vapor yeah there's a

like water ice vapor yeah there's a problem with that there's a a heresy

problem with that there's a a heresy called modalism modalism says that

called modalism modalism says that there's one God but he changes like he's

there's one God but he changes like he's the father now but then he changes like

the father now but then he changes like water changes to steam when it's heated

water changes to steam when it's heated and now he becomes a son and then he

and now he becomes a son and then he changes again because water can become

changes again because water can become ice um and becomes a holy spirit that's

ice um and becomes a holy spirit that's a heresy that's not how it works um um

a heresy that's not how it works um um um he is there are three distinct

um he is there are three distinct persons in the godhead who who are God

persons in the godhead who who are God um so it's not like um they change roles

um so it's not like um they change roles or uh go from water to ice to steam a

or uh go from water to ice to steam a lot of people use that illustration and

lot of people use that illustration and and it's you just have to be careful

and it's you just have to be careful because um that can lead to a heretical

because um that can lead to a heretical belief that God changes from the father

belief that God changes from the father to the son to the Holy Spirit depending

to the son to the Holy Spirit depending on the circumstances and that's just not

on the circumstances and that's just not what happen so did you say that they

what happen so did you say that they each have different purposes or well

each have different purposes or well they can each have different roles what

they can each have different roles what what what would those roles be well um

what what would those roles be well um the role of the holy spirit for instance

the role of the holy spirit for instance in my life is to indwell me to uh live

in my life is to indwell me to uh live in me to guide me to be sort of an

in me to guide me to be sort of an internal conscience to help me

internal conscience to help me incrementally over time to become more

incrementally over time to become more like Jesus to change my values to change

like Jesus to change my values to change my character so one of the roles of the

my character so one of the roles of the holy spirit in our life is to minister

holy spirit in our life is to minister to us as we grow in our relationship

to us as we grow in our relationship with God that's one of the roles that he

with God that's one of the roles that he performs but there are other roles too

performs but there are other roles too like um it was through him through the

like um it was through him through the holy spirit that Jesus was conceived in

holy spirit that Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary um so

the womb of Mary um so and Jesus has the role of um being the

and Jesus has the role of um being the savior of the world um but they all have

savior of the world um but they all have that role in the sense the Holy Spirit

that role in the sense the Holy Spirit was involved when you look in Genesis

was involved when you look in Genesis even in in early Hebrew

even in in early Hebrew writings uh you can see the spirit and

writings uh you can see the spirit and and the you can see the different

and the you can see the different elements of God the different I elements

elements of God the different I elements of God is the wrong term um you can see

of God is the wrong term um you can see the three persons of the Trinity playing

the three persons of the Trinity playing a role in creation Jesus played a role

a role in creation Jesus played a role in creation the father played a role in

in creation the father played a role in creation the Holy Spirit played a role

creation the Holy Spirit played a role in creation so they're working together

in creation so they're working together as one godhead to accomplish all the

as one godhead to accomplish all the creation that we have how did Jesus play

creation that we have how did Jesus play a role in creation um there's a there's

a role in creation um there's a there's a scripture in the New Testament says

a scripture in the New Testament says nothing that was created was created

nothing that was created was created without Jesus so he he played a role

without Jesus so he he played a role from eternity past in the creation of of

from eternity past in the creation of of the world wow yeah pretty wild

the world wow yeah pretty wild fascinating stuff yeah Lee let's take a

fascinating stuff yeah Lee let's take a uh let's take a quick break and when we

uh let's take a quick break and when we come back I want to I want to get into

come back I want to I want to get into what uh sent you on your journey sure to

what uh sent you on your journey sure to disprove God and what you found okay

disprove God and what you found okay thank

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orders all right Lee we're back from the break sorry about the mini interrogation

break sorry about the mini interrogation there but uh I'm just curious uh

there but uh I'm just curious uh a lot more questions are going to come

a lot more questions are going to come up but but I wanted to I want to get

up but but I wanted to I want to get into a little bit about what what sent

into a little bit about what what sent you on the journey to

you on the journey to disprove the Bible yeah or God well I

disprove the Bible yeah or God well I was um legal editor of the Chicago

was um legal editor of the Chicago Tribune and um got married young and um

Tribune and um got married young and um it was an atheist my wife was an

it was an atheist my wife was an agnostic she didn't know what to believe

agnostic she didn't know what to believe and and um she came up to me one day and

and and um she came up to me one day and gave me the worst news any atheist

gave me the worst news any atheist husband could get she said I just I've

husband could get she said I just I've become a Christian I thought oh great

become a Christian I thought oh great you know now she's going to start

you know now she's going to start judging me now she's going to try to get

judging me now she's going to try to get me not to hang out with my friends now

me not to hang out with my friends now she's going to make the kids think that

she's going to make the kids think that there's something wrong with me because

there's something wrong with me because I don't believe in God I thought I just

I don't believe in God I thought I just saw trouble on the

saw trouble on the horizon and trouble came uh because all

horizon and trouble came uh because all of a sudden she becomes a devout

of a sudden she becomes a devout Christian and I'm an adamant atheist

Christian and I'm an adamant atheist well we're just button heads and we've

well we're just button heads and we've never done that we we met when we were

never done that we we met when we were 14 we got married at 19 and 20 um you

14 we got married at 19 and 20 um you know we're best friends and yet for the

know we're best friends and yet for the first time in our marriage we're at

first time in our marriage we're at loggerheads you know she she wants to go

loggerheads you know she she wants to go to church well am I going to stay home

to church well am I going to stay home with the kids while you go to church I

with the kids while you go to church I got other things to do um she I remember

got other things to do um she I remember when she came to me she said I'd like to

when she came to me she said I'd like to give some money to the church I said I

give some money to the church I said I got a good idea why don't you take the

got a good idea why don't you take the money and flush it down the toilet

money and flush it down the toilet cuz that'll have the same

cuz that'll have the same effect so so that was that was what she

effect so so that was that was what she was up against I mean um and I thought I

was up against I mean um and I thought I got to get my marriage back together

got to get my marriage back together here how do I do that well wait a minute

here how do I do that well wait a minute there's an easy way all I have to do is

there's an easy way all I have to do is disprove

disprove Christianity you know I went to Yale law

Christianity you know I went to Yale law school I understand what evidence is um

school I understand what evidence is um I take me a long weekend maybe a

I take me a long weekend maybe a three-day weekend and I'm sure I can

three-day weekend and I'm sure I can poke enough holes in Christianity that

poke enough holes in Christianity that it would fall part what what brought

it would fall part what what brought your wife to Faith um it's interesting

your wife to Faith um it's interesting um the door we moved into a condo uh in

um the door we moved into a condo uh in suburban Chicago and um the doorbell

suburban Chicago and um the doorbell rang and it was a neighbor it was a

rang and it was a neighbor it was a woman she was a nurse and her name was

woman she was a nurse and her name was Linda and she had a a child on her hip

Linda and she had a a child on her hip uh who was was 6 months old well we had

uh who was was 6 months old well we had a 9-month-old daughter and um so Linda

a 9-month-old daughter and um so Linda introduces herself brought a plate of

introduces herself brought a plate of cookies and said um hey you know let's

cookies and said um hey you know let's get together sometime so they became

get together sometime so they became best friends well Linda was a Christian

best friends well Linda was a Christian a strong Christian and they would have

a strong Christian and they would have long conversations about God and lesie

long conversations about God and lesie wasn't hostile like I was she she just

wasn't hostile like I was she she just had questions like anybody would and

had questions like anybody would and Linda had answers and um she went to

Linda had answers and um she went to church with her she checked it out and

church with her she checked it out and then she brought me that news that she

then she brought me that news that she had become a Christian um and that just

had become a Christian um and that just enraged you oh my gosh I just saw this

enraged you oh my gosh I just saw this is this is the last thing I need in my

is this is the last thing I need in my life because I just had this caricature

life because I just had this caricature of Christians who are going to be

of Christians who are going to be judgmental and and uh going to look down

judgmental and and uh going to look down their nose at me and and and and and by

their nose at me and and and and and by the way I thought I was a man in her

the way I thought I was a man in her life now who's this Jesus character well

life now who's this Jesus character well you weren't wrong yeah I do see a lot of

you weren't wrong yeah I do see a lot of those things that you just described

those things that you just described still today and I'd love to chat about

still today and I'd love to chat about that later on I know there is a lot of

that later on I know there is a lot of that and that's what I was recoiling

that and that's what I was recoiling against and so I thought I could

against and so I thought I could disprove it I I ended up spending a year

disprove it I I ended up spending a year and nine months taking my journalism

and nine months taking my journalism training my legal training and probing

training my legal training and probing the historical data concerning the

the historical data concerning the resurrection of Jesus mainly because

resurrection of Jesus mainly because even as an atheist I understood

even as an atheist I understood everything everything everything depends

everything everything everything depends on whether Jesus returned from the dead

on whether Jesus returned from the dead or not because clearly Jesus made

or not because clearly Jesus made Transcendent and Messianic in Divine

Transcendent and Messianic in Divine claims about himself

claims about himself he claimed he was the son of God at one

he claimed he was the son of God at one point he gets up before a group of

point he gets up before a group of people and he says I and the father are

people and he says I and the father are one and the word in Greek there for one

one and the word in Greek there for one is not masculine it's neuter which means

is not masculine it's neuter which means Jesus was not saying I and the father

Jesus was not saying I and the father are the same person he was saying I and

are the same person he was saying I and the father are the same thing we're one

the father are the same thing we're one in nature we're one in essence and the

in nature we're one in essence and the audience got it they said oh you're a

audience got it they said oh you're a man and you're claiming to be God so

man and you're claiming to be God so they were going to kill him for claiming

they were going to kill him for claiming to be God well

to be God well he claimed to be God but so what I could

he claimed to be God but so what I could claim to be God you well maybe not

you anybody could claim that they're God but if Jesus claimed to be God died and

but if Jesus claimed to be God died and then three days later rose from the

then three days later rose from the dead that's pretty good evidence he's

dead that's pretty good evidence he's telling the truth so even as an atheist

telling the truth so even as an atheist I recognize this is the ball game and if

I recognize this is the ball game and if I could just disprove it I'd be home

I could just disprove it I'd be home free I could rescue her from this cult

free I could rescue her from this cult and go on with our life as it was where

and go on with our life as it was where where do you start to just prove

where do you start to just prove something it's so funny yes because this

something it's so funny yes because this is back in you know uh 1980 or so when

is back in you know uh 1980 or so when you know you're at the library with

you know you're at the library with microfish and microfilm and you're doing

microfish and microfilm and you're doing inter Library loans it take four months

inter Library loans it take four months to get an ancient book out of the

to get an ancient book out of the library you're going to museums to look

library you're going to museums to look at manuscripts you know but you know I

at manuscripts you know but you know I was trained to investigate I was an

was trained to investigate I was an investigative reporter for the Chicago

investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune I I did major investigations I

Tribune I I did major investigations I did a lot of the original reporting on

did a lot of the original reporting on the Ford Pinto case which is is before

the Ford Pinto case which is is before your time but it was a big deal back

your time but it was a big deal back then um and uh so I knew to pick up the

then um and uh so I knew to pick up the phone and say call a scholar and say I'm

phone and say call a scholar and say I'm Lee strouble from The Chicago Tribune oh

Lee strouble from The Chicago Tribune oh he probably thought I'm working on an

he probably thought I'm working on an article and say hey I got a question for

article and say hey I got a question for you what about this oh okay well great

you what about this oh okay well great thanks so I just began calling people

thanks so I just began calling people researching history checking stuff out

researching history checking stuff out and um nowadays it's a lot easier

and um nowadays it's a lot easier nowadays it's

nowadays it's very easy to investigate this stuff um

very easy to investigate this stuff um one of the greatest Scholars probably

one of the greatest Scholars probably the greatest scholar in the resurrection

the greatest scholar in the resurrection Dr Gary habermass is writing a four or

Dr Gary habermass is writing a four or five volume set each each volume is like

five volume set each each volume is like 800 Pages or so um on the resurrection

800 Pages or so um on the resurrection all refuting every counterargument out

all refuting every counterargument out there and presenting the case

there and presenting the case affirmatively and so forth and so

affirmatively and so forth and so there's plenty of stuff out there now if

there's plenty of stuff out there now if someone wants to check it out I ended up

someone wants to check it out I ended up writing a book on it called the case for

writing a book on it called the case for Christ um when I did the book I you know

Christ um when I did the book I you know I needed to retrace a lot of these

I needed to retrace a lot of these interviews that I did because I wasn't

interviews that I did because I wasn't planning to write a book I didn't keep

planning to write a book I didn't keep notes it was just for me my curiosity

notes it was just for me my curiosity like you had a bunch of questions um but

like you had a bunch of questions um but then when I wrote the book of course I

then when I wrote the book of course I had to do in-depth interviews tape

had to do in-depth interviews tape record them make sure they were accurate

record them make sure they were accurate and so forth um and so that book really

and so forth um and so that book really summarizes the evidence

summarizes the evidence so earlier you had mentioned there was a

so earlier you had mentioned there was a passage I think did you say say John

passage I think did you say say John 1:12 yeah uh that that did it for you is

1:12 yeah uh that that did it for you is that really what is what is what is John

that really what is what is what is John 1112 yeah John 1112 says it's not enough

1112 yeah John 1112 says it's not enough just to believe that Jesus is the son of

just to believe that Jesus is the son of God the Bible says demons believe that

God the Bible says demons believe that Jesus is God and they shudder because

Jesus is God and they shudder because they know the implications of it for

they know the implications of it for them um it's not enough just to believe

them um it's not enough just to believe it we have to receive receive this free

it we have to receive receive this free gift of forgiveness and eternal life

gift of forgiveness and eternal life this free gift of God's grace and when

this free gift of God's grace and when we do that John 1:12 says we become a

we do that John 1:12 says we become a child of God

child of God forever um

forever um well I didn't believe and I didn't re I

well I didn't believe and I didn't re I didn't you know I thought it was I

didn't you know I thought it was I thought it was fairy tales I thought it

thought it was fairy tales I thought it was make believe I thought Christianity

was make believe I thought Christianity was was based on wishful thinking um

was was based on wishful thinking um mythology and Legend that's what I

mythology and Legend that's what I thought but as I began to investigate

thought but as I began to investigate the

the resurrection I was stunned because when

resurrection I was stunned because when I was a little kid I don't know if you

I was a little kid I don't know if you this when you were a kid my parents for

this when you were a kid my parents for Christmas gave me this punching clown it

Christmas gave me this punching clown it was it was weighted on the bottom it was

was it was weighted on the bottom it was about 3 feet tall and it was inflated

about 3 feet tall and it was inflated and it was a clown and you would hit it

and it was a clown and you would hit it like a punching bag and because it was

like a punching bag and because it was weighted on the bottom it would go down

weighted on the bottom it would go down when you would hit it but then it would

when you would hit it but then it would bounce back up and then you'd hit it

bounce back up and then you'd hit it again it was a toy that I got when I a

again it was a toy that I got when I a kid that's how I pictured this I thought

kid that's how I pictured this I thought I had a knockdown punch I thought I

I had a knockdown punch I thought I could disapprove Christianity so I'd hit

could disapprove Christianity so I'd hit it with an objection and it would bounce

it with an objection and it would bounce back there's an answer to that dog gone

back there's an answer to that dog gone it what about this bang i' hit it again

it what about this bang i' hit it again and it would bounce back there's an

and it would bounce back there's an answer to that so I was stunned because

answer to that so I was stunned because I did not expect there to be any

I did not expect there to be any historical validity to the fact that

historical validity to the fact that Jesus died on the cross and rose from

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead but I can summarize it really

the dead but I can summarize it really quickly what I found using four words to

quickly what I found using four words to begin with the letter e that way people

begin with the letter e that way people can remember because remember it's

can remember because remember it's Christmas the reason Jesus came was

Christmas the reason Jesus came was Easter the resurrection how do we we

Easter the resurrection how do we we know it's true four letter four words to

know it's true four letter four words to begin with the letter e

begin with the letter e execution Jesus was dead after being

execution Jesus was dead after being crucified I thought maybe he survived

crucified I thought maybe he survived and the cool damp air of the Tomb

and the cool damp air of the Tomb resuscitated him that's what I thought

resuscitated him that's what I thought no we have no record anywhere of anyone

no we have no record anywhere of anyone surviving a full Roman crucifixion

surviving a full Roman crucifixion anywhere not only do we have multiple

anywhere not only do we have multiple accounts in the documents of the New

accounts in the documents of the New Testament that tell us that Jesus was

Testament that tell us that Jesus was dead after being crucified we've got

dead after being crucified we've got five ancient sources outside the B that

five ancient sources outside the B that talk about him being dead what are those

talk about him being dead what are those sources oh like um Josephus uh tacitus

sources oh like um Josephus uh tacitus these are early historians marbar

these are early historians marbar serapian Lucian um even the Jewish talid

serapian Lucian um even the Jewish talid admits that Jesus was executed um so

admits that Jesus was executed um so Jesus was clearly dead in fact get

Jesus was clearly dead in fact get this the Journal of the American Medical

this the Journal of the American Medical Association a secular scientific

Association a secular scientific peer-reviewed medical journal carried an

peer-reviewed medical journal carried an investigation into the death of Jesus

investigation into the death of Jesus and this was their conclusion quote

and this was their conclusion quote clearly the weight of the historical and

clearly the weight of the historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus

medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead even before the wound to his

was dead even before the wound to his side was inflicted so that's that's the

side was inflicted so that's that's the Journal of the American Medical

Journal of the American Medical Association you could go to an atheist

Association you could go to an atheist New Testament scholar like G ludeman and

New Testament scholar like G ludeman and he will tell you the death of Jesus on

he will tell you the death of Jesus on the cross by crucifixion is historically

the cross by crucifixion is historically indisputable that's the atheist speaking

indisputable that's the atheist speaking so the first e is for execution Jesus

so the first e is for execution Jesus was dead the second e stands for early

was dead the second e stands for early reports that he rose from the dead in

reports that he rose from the dead in other words reports that didn't come

other words reports that didn't come after Decades of legendary development

after Decades of legendary development but go right back to the Cross itself in

but go right back to the Cross itself in other words I used to think as a skeptic

other words I used to think as a skeptic okay I got to give you the fact Jesus

okay I got to give you the fact Jesus was dead get

was dead get it but the resurrection is a legend and

it but the resurrection is a legend and I knew I knew it took time for legend to

I knew I knew it took time for legend to develop in the ancient world you know

develop in the ancient world you know the great historian a Sherwin white of

the great historian a Sherwin white of Oxford said the passage of two

Oxford said the passage of two generations of time is not even enough

generations of time is not even enough for legend to grow up and wipe out a

for legend to grow up and wipe out a solid core of historical truth so I knew

solid core of historical truth so I knew it took a few generations for legend to

it took a few generations for legend to develop well what I learned is that we

develop well what I learned is that we have a report of the resurrection of

have a report of the resurrection of Jesus including named eyewitnesses and

Jesus including named eyewitnesses and groups of eyewitnesses that said he died

groups of eyewitnesses that said he died why for our sins he was buried on the

why for our sins he was buried on the third day he rose from the dead and

third day he rose from the dead and these eyewitnesses groups of

these eyewitnesses groups of eyewitnesses and individuals this report

eyewitnesses and individuals this report has been dated back by Scholars to

has been dated back by Scholars to within month months of his death within

within month months of his death within months yeah wow that is that that's a

months yeah wow that is that that's a news you can see this that you could

news you can see this that you could it's it's in it's in the Bible 1

it's it's in it's in the Bible 1 Corinthians 15 starting at verse two

Corinthians 15 starting at verse two that is a nugget that talks about the

that is a nugget that talks about the resurrection of Jesus who wrote first

resurrection of Jesus who wrote first Corinthians Paul Paul had been someone

Corinthians Paul Paul had been someone who didn't believe in God he was a

who didn't believe in God he was a Pharisee he didn't believe in Jesus uh

Pharisee he didn't believe in Jesus uh he was persecuting Christians he's on

he was persecuting Christians he's on the road to Damascus boom he has

the road to Damascus boom he has encounter with the Risen Christ he

encounter with the Risen Christ he realizes Jesus is is is God and he

realizes Jesus is is is God and he becomes the Apostle Paul 22 years later

becomes the Apostle Paul 22 years later he writes his letter to the church in

he writes his letter to the church in Corinth that's what we call First

Corinth that's what we call First Corinthians in the Bible and he includes

Corinthians in the Bible and he includes his report about the resurrection where

his report about the resurrection where did he get that report well we know that

did he get that report well we know that it was 1 to three years after the death

it was 1 to three years after the death of Jesus that he had this experience

of Jesus that he had this experience with the Risen Christ and became the

with the Risen Christ and became the Apostle Paul he immediately went to

Apostle Paul he immediately went to Damascus and he met with some Apostles

Damascus and he met with some Apostles many people believe that's when he was

many people believe that's when he was given this report about the resurrection

given this report about the resurrection some people believe it was a few years

some people believe it was a few years later a couple years later he went to

later a couple years later he went to Jerusalem and he met for 15 days with

Jerusalem and he met for 15 days with two eyewitnesses to the resurrection who

two eyewitnesses to the resurrection who were mentioned in that report Peter and

were mentioned in that report Peter and James and the Greek word that Paul uses

James and the Greek word that Paul uses to describe that meeting is this is an

to describe that meeting is this is an investigative meeting they're checking

investigative meeting they're checking each other out what did you see what do

each other out what did you see what do you know what do you know for sure what

you know what do you know for sure what do you experienc some people believe

do you experienc some people believe that that's when he was given this

that that's when he was given this report by two people named in the report

report by two people named in the report but either way it means within 1 to 6

but either way it means within 1 to 6 years after the death of Jesus this

years after the death of Jesus this Creed this report is already in

Creed this report is already in existence and therefore the beliefs that

existence and therefore the beliefs that make up this report go back even earlier

make up this report go back even earlier virtually to the Cross itself so there's

virtually to the Cross itself so there's no huge time gap between the death of

no huge time gap between the death of Jesus and the later development of a

Jesus and the later development of a legend that he rose from the dead we got

legend that he rose from the dead we got a news flash and probably the greatest

a news flash and probably the greatest historian on the first century uh is Dr

historian on the first century uh is Dr James DG Dunn of the United Kingdom

James DG Dunn of the United Kingdom he analyzed this report which comes in

he analyzed this report which comes in the form of a Creed of the earliest

the form of a Creed of the earliest church with eyewitnesses to the

church with eyewitnesses to the resurrection he analyzed it historically

resurrection he analyzed it historically and his here was his conclusion he says

and his here was his conclusion he says um um we can be entirely confident that

um um we can be entirely confident that this report was written originally

this report was written originally within months of the death of Jesus

within months of the death of Jesus within months that is a news flash from

within months that is a news flash from ancient history much too quick to be a

ancient history much too quick to be a legend that developed over the

legend that developed over the generations so we got an execution he's

generations so we got an execution he's dead we got this early report and we got

dead we got this early report and we got other early reports right there first

other early reports right there first generation same generation of Jesus in

generation same generation of Jesus in Matthew Mark Luke and then John comes a

Matthew Mark Luke and then John comes a little bit later but also I would say in

little bit later but also I would say in the first generation so we've got these

the first generation so we've got these other reports too but this this one that

other reports too but this this one that I me the original report too what's that

I me the original report too what's that is it the original documentation well he

is it the original documentation well he he's he's reporting it in his letter to

he's he's reporting it in his letter to the church in Corinth okay and and

the church in Corinth okay and and that's what we have today as but it is

that's what we have today as but it is the original letter is it the original

the original letter is it the original letter well the original letter has been

letter well the original letter has been turned to dust because it was written in

turned to dust because it was written in parchment or or on um Scrolls and and

parchment or or on um Scrolls and and Papyrus and so forth but we have people

Papyrus and so forth but we have people who copied it gotcha and so we've got

who copied it gotcha and so we've got multiple copies um so we got an

multiple copies um so we got an execution we got the early report third

execution we got the early report third e is empty

e is empty tomb um and what's interesting about

tomb um and what's interesting about that is even the enemies of Jesus

that is even the enemies of Jesus admitted the tomb was empty how do we

admitted the tomb was empty how do we know because we know from hisory sources

know because we know from hisory sources inside and outside the Bible that when

inside and outside the Bible that when the disciples began saying oh Jesus had

the disciples began saying oh Jesus had been resurrected what the enemies of

been resurrected what the enemies of Jesus said was oh well um the disciples

Jesus said was oh well um the disciples stole his

stole his body think about that what that's a

body think about that what that's a cover story they're admitting the tomb

cover story they're admitting the tomb is empty they're just saying this is how

is empty they're just saying this is how it got empty they stole the body so

it got empty they stole the body so they're conceding and licitly that the

they're conceding and licitly that the tomb is empty it's like if you're a

tomb is empty it's like if you're a student and a teacher comes up if you're

student and a teacher comes up if you're a teacher you mean the government

a teacher you mean the government lied even in the first century can you I

lied even in the first century can you I can't believe that but you know if

can't believe that but you know if you're a teacher and a student comes up

you're a teacher and a student comes up to you and says the dog ate my homework

to you and says the dog ate my homework he's admitting he doesn't have his

he's admitting he doesn't have his homework but he's trying to explain what

homework but he's trying to explain what happened to it it's the same thing so

happened to it it's the same thing so even the enemies of Jesus admitted the

even the enemies of Jesus admitted the tomb was empty the disciples didn't have

tomb was empty the disciples didn't have the motive the means or the opportunity

the motive the means or the opportunity to steal the body um nobody did um and

to steal the body um nobody did um and then we look at the fourth e

then we look at the fourth e eyewitnesses most of what we accept as

eyewitnesses most of what we accept as being true from the ancient world is

being true from the ancient world is based on Maybe One Source or two sources

based on Maybe One Source or two sources of information when you get right down

of information when you get right down to it we know things about famous people

to it we know things about famous people through ancient history because maybe

through ancient history because maybe one source or two

one source or two sources for the conviction of the

sources for the conviction of the disciples that they encountered the

disciples that they encountered the resurrected Jesus we have no fewer than

resurrected Jesus we have no fewer than nine ancient sources inside and outside

nine ancient sources inside and outside the New Testament confirming and

the New Testament confirming and corroborating the conviction of the

corroborating the conviction of the disciples that they encountered the

disciples that they encountered the Risen Christ that is an avalanche of

Risen Christ that is an avalanche of historical

historical data um so I mean I looked at this kind

data um so I mean I looked at this kind of stuff for almost two years wow and um

of stuff for almost two years wow and um I mean there's much more depth we could

I mean there's much more depth we could go into but um let's go into it let's go

go into but um let's go into it let's go yeah well here here's here's a fact that

yeah well here here's here's a fact that this was the final fact that convinced

this was the final fact that convinced me it was like I was putting other

me it was like I was putting other jigsaw puzzle I didn't know what the

jigsaw puzzle I didn't know what the picture was going to be and I'm I got

picture was going to be and I'm I got this final puzzle piece to go in and

this final puzzle piece to go in and when it went in I stepped back and I saw

when it went in I stepped back and I saw it was a picture of Jesus what was that

it was a picture of Jesus what was that puzzle

puzzle piece people would tell me oh the

piece people would tell me oh the disciples really believe that Jesus

disciples really believe that Jesus appeared to them resurrected because

appeared to them resurrected because they were willing to die for that

they were willing to die for that conviction and I would say that doesn't

conviction and I would say that doesn't convince me so what in World War II

convince me so what in World War II kamakazi Pilots

kamakazi Pilots crash their airplanes into boats why

crash their airplanes into boats why because they thought if they died that

because they thought if they died that way they go to heaven today why would a

way they go to heaven today why would a terrorist crash into the World Trade

terrorist crash into the World Trade Center in an airplane and kill himself

Center in an airplane and kill himself and a whole bunch of people because he

and a whole bunch of people because he sincerely believed with his whole heart

sincerely believed with his whole heart if he dies that way he's going to

if he dies that way he's going to Paradise so don't tell me that the

Paradise so don't tell me that the disciples willingness to die means

disciples willingness to die means anything and then somebody clarified

anything and then somebody clarified they say wait a minute let's use I'm I'm

they say wait a minute let's use I'm I'm I'm fast forwarding because this is

I'm fast forwarding because this is before

before uh uh September 11th but we use that as

uh uh September 11th but we use that as an illustration the September 11th

an illustration the September 11th terrorist attacks it's a huge difference

terrorist attacks it's a huge difference between the terror Attacks of September

between the terror Attacks of September 11th and the disciples being willing to

11th and the disciples being willing to die for their convictions the difference

die for their convictions the difference is those hijackers who hijacked the

is those hijackers who hijacked the plane and crashed him into the World

plane and crashed him into the World Trade Center did not know for a fact if

Trade Center did not know for a fact if they died that way they go to heaven

they died that way they go to heaven they believed it with all their heart

they believed it with all their heart they were taught it they believed it

they were taught it they believed it they had faith in it

they had faith in it and having faith in it they were willing

and having faith in it they were willing to die that way that tells me nothing

to die that way that tells me nothing about the truth of their convictions now

about the truth of their convictions now let's think about the

let's think about the Disciples of all human beings who've

Disciples of all human beings who've ever lived on the planet they were in a

ever lived on the planet they were in a unique

unique position they were there they touched

position they were there they touched the resurrected Jesus they talked with

the resurrected Jesus they talked with him they ate with him of all people who

him they ate with him of all people who ever lived they knew the truth about

ever lived they knew the truth about whether he had returned from the dead

whether he had returned from the dead and Pro proved he's a Son of God cuz

and Pro proved he's a Son of God cuz they were there they knew the truth

they were there they knew the truth knowing the truth they were willing to

knowing the truth they were willing to die for it that's the difference and I

die for it that's the difference and I went a light bulb went on and said whoa

went a light bulb went on and said whoa I get it that gives me confidence in in

I get it that gives me confidence in in in what they were saying because they

in what they were saying because they were there they touched them they ate

were there they touched them they ate with them they talked to them they knew

with them they talked to them they knew whether this was a lie somebody said to

whether this was a lie somebody said to me Lee

me Lee nobody knowingly and willingly dies for

nobody knowingly and willingly dies for what they know is a

what they know is a lie they knew if this is true or was a

lie they knew if this is true or was a lie they were willing to die for it why

lie they were willing to die for it why because they knew it was true wow that

because they knew it was true wow that was the last puzzle piece it was

was the last puzzle piece it was November the8th of 1981 it was a Sunday

November the8th of 1981 it was a Sunday afternoon about 3 in the

afternoon about 3 in the afternoon and I thought I believe based

afternoon and I thought I believe based on the data of history that Jesus

on the data of history that Jesus claimed to be God and backed it up by

claimed to be God and backed it up by returning from the dead

returning from the dead but now what do I just go back to life

but now what do I just go back to life do I just because remember the demons

do I just because remember the demons believe this too and they

believe this too and they shudder um and then my wife Lesley

shudder um and then my wife Lesley pointed out a verse to me John 1:12 but

pointed out a verse to me John 1:12 but as many as received him to them he gave

as many as received him to them he gave the right to become children of God even

the right to become children of God even to those who believe in his name and I

to those who believe in his name and I looked at that and I thought okay I get

looked at that and I thought okay I get the equation

the equation believe I do plus receive oh that's what

believe I do plus receive oh that's what I have to do to become a child of of God

I have to do to become a child of of God so I got on my

so I got on my knees and I poured out a

knees and I poured out a confession of a lifetime of immorality

confession of a lifetime of immorality that would absolutely curl your

that would absolutely curl your hair and at that moment I received

hair and at that moment I received complete total forgiveness through Jesus

complete total forgiveness through Jesus Christ and I became a child of

Christ and I became a child of God and I remember I went out and I told

lesie and she bursts into tears that she threw her arms around my neck and she

threw her arms around my neck and she said I almost gave up in you a thousand

said I almost gave up in you a thousand times she said when I was a new

times she said when I was a new Christian I told some women about you at

Christian I told some women about you at church I said I don't have any hope for

church I said I don't have any hope for my husband he is the hard-headed

my husband he is the hard-headed hard-hearted legal editor of the Chicago

hard-hearted legal editor of the Chicago Tribune he's never going to bend his

Tribune he's never going to bend his knee to

knee to Jesus and this one elderly woman named

Jesus and this one elderly woman named Sylvia put her arm around Lesley

Sylvia put her arm around Lesley shoulder pulled her to the side and said

shoulder pulled her to the side and said oh

oh lesie no one is beyond hope

lesie no one is beyond hope and she gave her a verse from the Old

and she gave her a verse from the Old Testament Ezekiel

Testament Ezekiel 36:26 that says moreover I will give you

36:26 that says moreover I will give you a new heart and I will put a new spirit

a new heart and I will put a new spirit within you I will remove from you Your

within you I will remove from you Your Heart of Stone and give you a heart of

Heart of Stone and give you a heart of Flesh and so what I never knew that

Flesh and so what I never knew that whole two years that I'm on this

whole two years that I'm on this investigative Journey what I never knew

investigative Journey what I never knew at the time is my wife every day on her

at the time is my wife every day on her niece in private prayed that verse for

niece in private prayed that verse for me and God on November the 8th of

me and God on November the 8th of 1981 when I received his free gift of

1981 when I received his free gift of Grace became a child of

God that verse became true because he began to

verse became true because he began to change not overnight but over time my

change not overnight but over time my values my character my morality my

values my character my morality my attitudes My Philosophy my everything

attitudes My Philosophy my everything about my

about my life am I perfect no Far Cry from it do

life am I perfect no Far Cry from it do I still sin yes I

I still sin yes I do but I grieve when I do now

do but I grieve when I do now and I and I and I pray for God to help

and I and I and I pray for God to help me next time so I won't sin and so I

me next time so I won't sin and so I take a couple steps forward couple steps

take a couple steps forward couple steps back but I grow a little bit every year

back but I grow a little bit every year in my relationship with God and he

in my relationship with God and he changes me from the inside that's the

changes me from the inside that's the work of the holy spirit in the life of a

work of the holy spirit in the life of a of a Christian um um things that I used

of a Christian um um things that I used to do that didn't bother me now would I

to do that didn't bother me now would I I couldn't you know I mean I when I was

I couldn't you know I mean I when I was an atheist in college I helped set up an

an atheist in college I helped set up an abortion for a girl I knew who was

abortion for a girl I knew who was gotten pregnant her boyfriend walked out

gotten pregnant her boyfriend walked out in her I said I don't worry about we'll

in her I said I don't worry about we'll just get rid of the

just get rid of the baby I set up that abortion we killed

baby I set up that abortion we killed that child didn't bother me a bit back

that child didn't bother me a bit back then I realized God's forgiven me of

then I realized God's forgiven me of that and now I know I mean God's changed

that and now I know I mean God's changed my values I I if I could go back of

my values I I if I could go back of course I wouldn't do that again so

course I wouldn't do that again so things changed fortunately um the Bible

things changed fortunately um the Bible say second Corinthians um you know when

say second Corinthians um you know when you come to Faith Like That the old is

you come to Faith Like That the old is gone the new is

gone the new is come

come wow sorry to get emotional but you know

wow sorry to get emotional but you know I kind of relive it when I tell it you

I kind of relive it when I tell it you know I mean I go back to that moment and

know I mean I go back to that moment and think gosh I just poured out my heart of

think gosh I just poured out my heart of this gross things that I had done in my

this gross things that I had done in my life terrible sins and just laying that

life terrible sins and just laying that all out to God and saying

all out to God and saying God I believe based on what I've

God I believe based on what I've learned that Jesus has paid for all that

learned that Jesus has paid for all that he paid the penalty I deserve for the

he paid the penalty I deserve for the sins that I've committed and I want to

sins that I've committed and I want to receive that gift right now and um and

receive that gift right now and um and that that sense of being forgiven of

that that sense of being forgiven of having that washed away wiped

having that washed away wiped away was just so liberating just so I

away was just so liberating just so I felt like I was 10 pounds lighter and um

felt like I was 10 pounds lighter and um you know that's the pivotal moment of my

you know that's the pivotal moment of my life pivotal moment I think of my

life pivotal moment I think of my eternity so you spent two years

eternity so you spent two years yeah just to just to disprove this just

yeah just to just to disprove this just to try to get your wife to quit

to try to get your wife to quit believing yeah I thought it'd be a lot

believing yeah I thought it'd be a lot easier I really did I thought oh my gosh

easier I really did I thought oh my gosh you telling me someone roast from the

you telling me someone roast from the dead yeah yeah yeah give me a break I

dead yeah yeah yeah give me a break I think I could disapprove that

think I could disapprove that overnight gosh it was like hitting that

overnight gosh it was like hitting that thing and it just bounced back up so

thing and it just bounced back up so going back to kind of the laws that we

going back to kind of the laws that we were talking about you know that I guess

were talking about you know that I guess that I had brought up

that I had brought up yeah why did God need to send Jesus here

yeah why did God need to send Jesus here to suffer mhm to forgive us for our sins

to suffer mhm to forgive us for our sins why didn't he just forgive us great

why didn't he just forgive us great question if he were just to there's

question if he were just to there's always a payment involved when

always a payment involved when forgiveness happens isn't that part of

forgiveness happens isn't that part of isn't wouldn't wouldn't you consider

isn't wouldn't wouldn't you consider that some type of a some type of a law

that some type of a some type of a law that needs to be

that needs to be in a sense yeah in a sense it's kind of

in a sense yeah in a sense it's kind of a law of of the world and that that um

a law of of the world and that that um when you sin against me and you um you

when you sin against me and you um you scratch my car or something um I can

scratch my car or something um I can forgive you and just say yeah just walk

forgive you and just say yeah just walk away but then I got to pay for it I got

away but then I got to pay for it I got to pay to have a fix or I'm going to

to pay to have a fix or I'm going to lose money when I trade it in so I'm

lose money when I trade it in so I'm going to end up paying for it some

going to end up paying for it some someone has to pay the price um and you

someone has to pay the price um and you know for who can pay the price except

know for who can pay the price except but if it's God then why does somebody

but if it's God then why does somebody need to pay the price if God can do

need to pay the price if God can do anything yeah then why did somebody have

anything yeah then why did somebody have to pay the price because the only way

to pay the price because the only way the only way that God could forgive all

the only way that God could forgive all of humankind would be to send the

of humankind would be to send the perfect person that is Jesus who is

perfect person that is Jesus who is fully God and fully man who lived the

fully God and fully man who lived the perfect life who himself was without

perfect life who himself was without sin to pay for the sins of others so it

sin to pay for the sins of others so it had to be someone who himself was

had to be someone who himself was sinless well who's that well it's only

sinless well who's that well it's only God himself and it's who Jesus is fully

God himself and it's who Jesus is fully God God fully man so he lived the

God God fully man so he lived the sinless life so he he becomes the

sinless life so he he becomes the sacrific in fact the whole sacrificial

sacrific in fact the whole sacrificial system in the Old Testament um among the

system in the Old Testament um among the Jewish people was pointing toward this

Jewish people was pointing toward this how on the day of atonement the the the

how on the day of atonement the the the U um high priest would go in um and and

U um high priest would go in um and and he would sacrifice an animal symbolic of

he would sacrifice an animal symbolic of of that

of that animal's life being taken to pay for the

animal's life being taken to pay for the sins of the Jewish people you know how

sins of the Jewish people you know how did that work it worked because it was

did that work it worked because it was foreshadowing

foreshadowing he was trying to say ultimately the Lamb

he was trying to say ultimately the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the

of God who takes away the sin of the world is going to come he's going to be

world is going to come he's going to be born in Bethlehem on Christmas he's

born in Bethlehem on Christmas he's going to live the perfect life and he's

going to live the perfect life and he's going to be the one who's going to be

going to be the one who's going to be sacrificed to pay for the sins of the

sacrificed to pay for the sins of the world um so there's always a payment

world um so there's always a payment it's kind of one of those realities and

it's kind of one of those realities and um uh Jesus is the only one by virtue of

um uh Jesus is the only one by virtue of his sinless life and his nature being

his sinless life and his nature being fully God and fully man the only one who

fully God and fully man the only one who could be a sacrifice for all of humanity

could be a sacrifice for all of humanity man I it's

man I it's just it's mindboggling it's not it is

just it's mindboggling it's not it is it's

it's it's I'm still not I I I understand what

it's I'm still not I I I understand what you're saying I don't understand why it

you're saying I don't understand why it had to happen if it was God was it well

had to happen if it was God was it well I think was it a message to us was he

I think was it a message to us was he trying to prove something to us no I

trying to prove something to us no I think it's more that he loves us God is

think it's more that he loves us God is love the Bible says God loves us Beyond

love the Bible says God loves us Beyond a love that we can even

a love that we can even comprehend and he knows because we have

comprehend and he knows because we have used our free will to turn our back on

used our free will to turn our back on him to violate us laws we've sinned and

him to violate us laws we've sinned and and because we have sinned we can never

and because we have sinned we can never enter

enter Heaven so what's God to do you're right

Heaven so what's God to do you're right God well God can't do anything he can do

God well God can't do anything he can do many things he's powerful he's

many things he's powerful he's omniscient he's omnipotent he can't do

omniscient he's omnipotent he can't do everything he can't lie you know he

everything he can't lie you know he can't you know there's certain things he

can't you know there's certain things he can't do um but in order for him to

can't do um but in order for him to accomplish the atonement for our sins so

accomplish the atonement for our sins so that cuz the choice is this Sean you can

that cuz the choice is this Sean you can pay for your

pay for your sin the sins that you've committed you

sin the sins that you've committed you want to pay for those okay you can do

want to pay for those okay you can do that the Bible says the wages of sin is

that the Bible says the wages of sin is death you'll be separated from God

death you'll be separated from God forever because you can't come into His

forever because you can't come into His presence because you're a sinner if you

presence because you're a sinner if you want to do that that's your free will

want to do that that's your free will that's your choice uh but God doesn't

that's your choice uh but God doesn't want you to do that he loves you he

want you to do that he loves you he wants to spend eternity with you in

wants to spend eternity with you in heaven

heaven um and so he said how can I how can I

um and so he said how can I how can I erase this Sin from Shawn's

erase this Sin from Shawn's life Jesus what if Jesus Paid For That

life Jesus what if Jesus Paid For That sin what if he atoned for that what if

sin what if he atoned for that what if he was the sacrifice who paid the

he was the sacrifice who paid the penalty that you deserved for the sins

penalty that you deserved for the sins that you've committed said no no no I'm

that you've committed said no no no I'm paying for him not as some third party

paying for him not as some third party but he is the god that we sinned against

but he is the god that we sinned against so he's not some innocent third party no

so he's not some innocent third party no he is the God we sinned against um so he

he is the God we sinned against um so he is the one who's going to go to the

is the one who's going to go to the Cross to pay that penalty because God

Cross to pay that penalty because God loves you he wants to spend eternity

loves you he wants to spend eternity with you and by wiping out the

with you and by wiping out the sin and clo clothing you in the

sin and clo clothing you in the righteousness of God the doors of Heaven

righteousness of God the doors of Heaven are opened up and you can spend eternity

are opened up and you can spend eternity with them

with them forever um so I don't I don't know what

forever um so I don't I don't know what else God could have

else God could have done um how else could he have

done um how else could he have achieved payment for the sins of the

achieved payment for the sins of the world World apart from forcing all of us

world World apart from forcing all of us to pay for our own

to pay for our own sins

sins um I don't know how else he could have

um I don't know how else he could have done it I think it was the only only

done it I think it was the only only path that makes sense to

path that makes sense to me um and I think honestly God has left

me um and I think honestly God has left um a trail in history for people like

um a trail in history for people like you and me and others who are curious

you and me and others who are curious does this really make sense did Jesus

does this really make sense did Jesus really return from the dead and prove

really return from the dead and prove he's God and Christianity is true and

he's God and Christianity is true and therefore we can trust what he says and

therefore we can trust what he says and so forth um I think God intentionally

so forth um I think God intentionally left evidence that leads us that that

left evidence that leads us that that can be used to lead us to the conclusion

can be used to lead us to the conclusion that Jesus is who he claimed to be you

that Jesus is who he claimed to be you know when I was in law school one of my

know when I was in law school one of my heroes was a guy who was the greatest

heroes was a guy who was the greatest lawyer in the world he was in the later

lawyer in the world he was in the later I think it was he was in the Guinness

I think it was he was in the Guinness Book of World Records as the most

Book of World Records as the most successful defense attorney who ever

successful defense attorney who ever lived his name was sir lol luu get this

lived his name was sir lol luu get this you'll appreciate this he won 247 murder

you'll appreciate this he won 247 murder trials in a row as a defense attorney

trials in a row as a defense attorney either before the jury or on appeal wow

either before the jury or on appeal wow yeah nobody's ever done he's in the

yeah nobody's ever done he's in the Guinness book of War right greatest

Guinness book of War right greatest lawyer ever lived he was a skeptic like

lawyer ever lived he was a skeptic like I was about the resurrection you thought

I was about the resurrection you thought didn't Jesus didn't return from the dead

didn't Jesus didn't return from the dead and prove he says give give me a break

and prove he says give give me a break and he'll summon chall him Sir Lionel

and he'll summon chall him Sir Lionel you're the greatest La have you ever

you're the greatest La have you ever taken your Monumental legal skill and

taken your Monumental legal skill and applied it to the historical record and

applied it to the historical record and come to an informed conclusion about

come to an informed conclusion about whether or not Jesus did return from the

whether or not Jesus did return from the dead he said no I haven't but I will so

dead he said no I haven't but I will so he said out he did what I did he spent

he said out he did what I did he spent years investigating the evidence and

years investigating the evidence and I'll recite to you one sentence he wrote

I'll recite to you one sentence he wrote that summarized this conclusion he says

that summarized this conclusion he says I say

I say unequivocally that the evidence for the

unequivocally that the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so

resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance

overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room

by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt this is a guy that knows

for doubt this is a guy that knows evidence he he he could take what looks

evidence he he he could take what looks like an airtight case against his client

like an airtight case against his client and find all the flaws he was kned twice

and find all the flaws he was kned twice by Queen Elizabeth he became a member of

by Queen Elizabeth he became a member of the Supreme Court of his country and

the Supreme Court of his country and that was his conclusion about the

that was his conclusion about the evidence um by the way I shared that

evidence um by the way I shared that story in California at a church where I

story in California at a church where I just moved back in 2000 and a woman came

just moved back in 2000 and a woman came up to me afterwards and she said I'm

up to me afterwards and she said I'm your new neighbor you just moved into my

your new neighbor you just moved into my neighborhood you haven't met everybody

neighborhood you haven't met everybody yet I lived down the block oh great to

yet I lived down the block oh great to meet you she said yeah I'm serino's

meet you she said yeah I'm serino's sister wow his sister wow and I said did

sister wow his sister wow and I said did I tell the story accurately she said

I tell the story accurately she said absolutely she said in fact let me show

absolutely she said in fact let me show you some of his private papers where he

you some of his private papers where he did his research and so forth and so she

did his research and so forth and so she was she showed me some of his private uh

was she showed me some of his private uh writings and stuff um he later resigned

writings and stuff um he later resigned from practice of Law and became an

from practice of Law and became an evangelist but um but that just shows

evangelist but um but that just shows you now do most people check it out no

you now do most people check it out no most people don't you know most people

most people don't you know most people don't take two years of their life like

don't take two years of their life like I did um and and really delve into it um

I did um and and really delve into it um but that's why I wrote the case for

but that's why I wrote the case for Christ to say you know maybe this is a

Christ to say you know maybe this is a way so I just interview Scholars and let

way so I just interview Scholars and let them present the case um in an

them present the case um in an affirmative way but you know I just

affirmative way but you know I just encourage anybody who's watching to say

encourage anybody who's watching to say you know if you if you question if you

you know if you if you question if you doubt it do what I did check it out

doubt it do what I did check it out there's plenty of evidence out there um

there's plenty of evidence out there um do the due diligence and come to an

do the due diligence and come to an informed conclusion about whether Jesus

informed conclusion about whether Jesus is who he claim to be because if he is

is who he claim to be because if he is then what he says about us how he says

then what he says about us how he says we should live what he says about heaven

we should live what he says about heaven what he says about the uh Eternal

what he says about the uh Eternal condition of our soul and so forth we

condition of our soul and so forth we can trust it if he is who he claim to be

can trust it if he is who he claim to be when we're talking about Sin yeah and

when we're talking about Sin yeah and that that that if you if you get to know

that that that if you if you get to know Jesus all sins are forgiven

Jesus all sins are forgiven yeah I've also heard I've heard both

yeah I've also heard I've heard both things that that all sins are equal

things that that all sins are equal there is not one that's that's

that's stealing is the same as murder is the same as rape is the same as all

the same as rape is the same as all these things is and then I also I've

these things is and then I also I've heard there are cardinal sins and what

heard there are cardinal sins and what what which is it I I think there are

what which is it I I think there are gradations of sin I don't think they're

gradations of sin I don't think they're all equal um Jesus said a couple of

all equal um Jesus said a couple of times

times um for instance that

um for instance that people in villages that he went into and

people in villages that he went into and demonstrated his divinity through his

demonstrated his divinity through his miracles and still rejected God they

miracles and still rejected God they will suffer greater punishment than

will suffer greater punishment than others um the Bible also says say that

others um the Bible also says say that again in other words people who had

again in other words people who had Advanced knowledge of him through his

Advanced knowledge of him through his miracles and so forth and yet reject him

miracles and so forth and yet reject him anyway they will be judged more harshly

anyway they will be judged more harshly than those who didn't see those Miracles

than those who didn't see those Miracles and so forth um the Bible also talks

and so forth um the Bible also talks about the unforgivable sin the sin that

about the unforgivable sin the sin that can't be forgiven what is and that's the

can't be forgiven what is and that's the blaspheming of the holy spirit says that

blaspheming of the holy spirit says that will not be forgiven in this life or the

will not be forgiven in this life or the life to come what exactly does that mean

life to come what exactly does that mean that's a good question and here's my

that's a good question and here's my best attempted an answer um the holy

best attempted an answer um the holy spirit is who draws us toward Christ is

spirit is who draws us toward Christ is God reaching out to us whispering in our

God reaching out to us whispering in our ear God loves you Sean God Made You for

ear God loves you Sean God Made You for him to spend eternity with he he he um

him to spend eternity with he he he um uh he is the one seeking us before we

uh he is the one seeking us before we even seek God to blaspheme the holy

even seek God to blaspheme the holy spirit is to turn our back on that and

spirit is to turn our back on that and say forget you don't want anything and

say forget you don't want anything and you live your life saying I don't care

you live your life saying I don't care about God and you die in a way that

about God and you die in a way that means you're going to end up paying for

means you're going to end up paying for your own sin because you didn't accept

your own sin because you didn't accept Jesus payment on your behalf and so I

Jesus payment on your behalf and so I believe the blasphemy against the Holy

believe the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit the unforgivable sin is rejecting

Spirit the unforgivable sin is rejecting The God Who is calling out to you to

The God Who is calling out to you to come to

come to him did you not do that when you were an

him did you not do that when you were an atheist I did it I did it um but the end

atheist I did it I did it um but the end of my life wasn't there yet in other

of my life wasn't there yet in other words after that then I accepted okay

words after that then I accepted okay yeah so you can um you know you live a

yeah so you can um you know you live a life opposed to God as an atheist or I

life opposed to God as an atheist or I did and um but then that turns when you

did and um but then that turns when you come to Faith

you know I kind of want to I don't know how to initiate it but I want to talk a

how to initiate it but I want to talk a little bit about

little bit about the everybody's just so judgmental yeah

the everybody's just so judgmental yeah these days I know isn't it true

these days I know isn't it true including myself and I catch myself all

including myself and I catch myself all the time but you know in and we're both

the time but you know in and we're both somewhat active on social media and um

somewhat active on social media and um you know it's it's like it doesn't

you know it's it's like it doesn't matter what I post I you know and and

matter what I post I you know and and I'm never going to

I'm never going to let people's judgment interfere with my

let people's judgment interfere with my curiosity but I've had I've had all

curiosity but I've had I've had all kinds of people on the show I've had

kinds of people on the show I've had remote viewers I've had I've had John

remote viewers I've had I've had John Burke I've and no matter who it is yeah

Burke I've and no matter who it is yeah you push back you get yeah yeah even

you push back you get yeah yeah even even even today when I talked about you

even even today when I talked about you know putting the Bibles in the

know putting the Bibles in the foundation I got people judging me for

foundation I got people judging me for that I'm just trying you know what I

that I'm just trying you know what I mean I'm just trying and social media

mean I'm just trying and social media it's so public and it's so instant and

it's so public and it's so instant and it's so in your face and it's people

it's so in your face and it's people that don't know you and don't have the

that don't know you and don't have the courtesy to call you up and say hey why

courtesy to call you up and say hey why are you doing this oh really oh okay I

are you doing this oh really oh okay I guess I get it you know I mean they

guess I get it you know I mean they judge you based on what they see that

judge you based on what they see that may be a slice of what you've done and I

may be a slice of what you've done and I know it's hard and there's a lot of

know it's hard and there's a lot of churches that that have that kind of

churches that that have that kind of reputation of being judgmental um do you

reputation of being judgmental um do you think that they they realize how many

think that they they realize how many people you know I wonder if they because

people you know I wonder if they because it maybe I'm wrong

it maybe I'm wrong but it seems like

but it seems like we're all here to kind of spread the

we're all here to kind of spread the word right and so and to to bring people

word right and so and to to bring people in and so you know I hear this and I

in and so you know I hear this and I read it and it really pisses me off yeah

read it and it really pisses me off yeah you know and and that it drove me away

you know and and that it drove me away for a very long time and I I you know I

for a very long time and I I you know I I have no proof of this but I would

I have no proof of this but I would imagine that they they

imagine that they they push people away yeah from God from

push people away yeah from God from Christ if I were a betting man I would

Christ if I were a betting man I would bet that they push way more people away

bet that they push way more people away from coming to than they do bring in I

from coming to than they do bring in I hope that but I fear you may be right I

hope that but I fear you may be right I mean it's sad um you know the Bible says

mean it's sad um you know the Bible says should we judge yes we are to judge in

should we judge yes we are to judge in in a but the Bible says with gentleness

in a but the Bible says with gentleness and

and respect um we should make judgments

respect um we should make judgments about things that's okay that's good to

about things that's okay that's good to do but a Jud that yeah Bible says that

do but a Jud that yeah Bible says that but but

but but um it's how we judge in other words

um it's how we judge in other words judgmentalism is a hypocritical holier

judgmentalism is a hypocritical holier than thou um looking down your nose um

than thou um looking down your nose um pushing people away you're not good

pushing people away you're not good enough um um excluding people on

enough um um excluding people on whatever

whatever basis that's what chases people away um

basis that's what chases people away um uh you

uh you know when when we talk about Jesus it's

know when when we talk about Jesus it's going to be a natural divide they're

going to be a natural divide they're going to be people who are going to say

going to be people who are going to say yep yep got you with you there be people

yep yep got you with you there be people I don't want to hear that or I I reject

I don't want to hear that or I I reject that or is making me mad I I'm not going

that or is making me mad I I'm not going to shy away from the people that makes

to shy away from the people that makes mad because there are people who need to

mad because there are people who need to hear the message who want to hear the

hear the message who want to hear the message and they going to respond to the

message and they going to respond to the message so I get all kinds of hate mail

message so I get all kinds of hate mail I get people fantasizing about murdering

I get people fantasizing about murdering me I get I all kinds of stuff like that

me I get I all kinds of stuff like that are you serious oh yeah why would they

are you serious oh yeah why would they want to do that what did you say I I

want to do that what did you say I I know I know well look at what happened

know I know well look at what happened to Jesus they killed himh you know they

to Jesus they killed himh you know they kill the disciples um so or or the

kill the disciples um so or or the apostles and and um um so that comes

apostles and and um um so that comes with the territory in a sense what do

with the territory in a sense what do you think about Humanity as a whole I

you think about Humanity as a whole I think we

think we are from the position that you're in you

are from the position that you're in you see thousands of people yeah Mill

14 million copies sold of your books yeah we got a lot of exposure yeah what

yeah we got a lot of exposure yeah what do you think of humanity as a whole I

do you think of humanity as a whole I think we

think we are headed on the wrong path

are headed on the wrong path generally that we are sinners that are

generally that we are sinners that are manifesting our sins in a variety of

manifesting our sins in a variety of different ways I think we there's a lot

different ways I think we there's a lot of good people I say good not perfect

of good people I say good not perfect people but people who who want to do

people but people who who want to do what right who are trying to follow the

what right who are trying to follow the teachings of scripture who want to love

teachings of scripture who want to love others who want to um uh encourage

others who want to um uh encourage others who want to be positive and share

others who want to be positive and share this message of Hope and Grace and love

this message of Hope and Grace and love and Redemption and eternal life

and Redemption and eternal life um but you know the Bible says we're

um but you know the Bible says we're coming to a crisis we're coming to a

coming to a crisis we're coming to a conclusion at some point history is

conclusion at some point history is going to be consummated and Jesus is

going to be consummated and Jesus is going to come back and when that happens

going to come back and when that happens it's going to be too late um for people

it's going to be too late um for people who haven't made that choice yet to

who haven't made that choice yet to receive him is there forgiver and leader

receive him is there forgiver and leader so um you know in a sense i' I've read

so um you know in a sense i' I've read the end of the story and the end of the

the end of the story and the end of the story is history will be consummated

story is history will be consummated Satan will be thrown into the Lake of

Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire that's metaphorical but um and um

Fire that's metaphorical but um and um um Jesus will come back to judge um and

um Jesus will come back to judge um and and um you know you don't want to be

and um you know you don't want to be found wanting at that moment you want to

found wanting at that moment you want to be um someone who's safely adopted as a

be um someone who's safely adopted as a son or a daughter of God because he

son or a daughter of God because he won't disown his own children what does

won't disown his own children what does that mean for my one-year-old daughter

that mean for my one-year-old daughter when he comes back yeah that's a great

when he comes back yeah that's a great question you know what about children

question you know what about children who are too young to really understand

who are too young to really understand right and wrong who are too young to

right and wrong who are too young to their brain has not developed enough to

their brain has not developed enough to make educated decisions or to learn that

make educated decisions or to learn that type

type of stuff exactly um my conviction on

of stuff exactly um my conviction on this I've written about this um and

this I've written about this um and interviewed Scholars about this that um

interviewed Scholars about this that um in the case of people below the age of

in the case of people below the age of accountability

accountability who don't really have that sense of

who don't really have that sense of right and wrong who are too young um

right and wrong who are too young um that

that um they will not be held accountable for

um they will not be held accountable for the things that they've done that may

the things that they've done that may have been shouldn't have done the

have been shouldn't have done the naughty things that they've done as

naughty things that they've done as infants and so forth um so in other

infants and so forth um so in other words I think God

words I think God will um it's sort it's sort of you know

will um it's sort it's sort of you know there's a there's a term a Latin term in

there's a there's a term a Latin term in local parentis and it means um I act in

local parentis and it means um I act in the place of your

the place of your parents um so um if you're if my parents

parents um so um if you're if my parents are out of the country if you're a kid

are out of the country if you're a kid and you're injured in an accident and

and you're injured in an accident and your parents are out of the country the

your parents are out of the country the court can say I can act in local

court can say I can act in local parentis I can act in your parents'

parentis I can act in your parents' place and make decisions about you I

place and make decisions about you I kind of picture this as when you're that

kind of picture this as when you're that young Jesus acts in local parentis he

young Jesus acts in local parentis he steps in the place of your parents and

steps in the place of your parents and in a sense um uh um brings um Redemption

in a sense um uh um brings um Redemption to Children um you know there's a

to Children um you know there's a there's a scripture that says that David

there's a scripture that says that David who committed sin with be Sheba and so

who committed sin with be Sheba and so forth um says that um um that child

forth um says that um um that child cannot come to me but I can go to him so

cannot come to me but I can go to him so in other words that child's going to be

in other words that child's going to be in heaven I'm someday I'm going to go to

in heaven I'm someday I'm going to go to heaven I will be with that child someday

heaven I will be with that child someday so yeah I think that before the age of

so yeah I think that before the age of accountability children are not

accountability children are not responsible they're not committing a sin

responsible they're not committing a sin because that that involves some valtion

because that that involves some valtion you know some choice and you know kids

you know some choice and you know kids are

kids did Jesus judge when he was on Earth definitely but he did it with

Earth definitely but he did it with gentleness and respect you know we're

gentleness and respect you know we're told that in 1 Peter 3:15 all Christians

told that in 1 Peter 3:15 all Christians you know are to present evidence for the

you know are to present evidence for the faith to defend the faith but do it

faith to defend the faith but do it gently and respectfully well there's

gently and respectfully well there's nothing wrong with

nothing wrong with judging um as long as it's done

judging um as long as it's done respectfully and gently we make

respectfully and gently we make judgments all the time now there's a

judgments all the time now there's a famous verse it sayso not judge um but

famous verse it sayso not judge um but you have to keep reading and when you

you have to keep reading and when you keep reading you understand it says

keep reading you understand it says don't judge

don't judge inappropriately um don't be judgmental

inappropriately um don't be judgmental in a way that is hypocritical and says

in a way that is hypocritical and says I'm better than you and and who are you

I'm better than you and and who are you who are you to call a name of Jesus you

who are you to call a name of Jesus you you're no um that's being judgmental

you're no um that's being judgmental making we need to make good judgments we

making we need to make good judgments we need we make judgments about everything

need we make judgments about everything every day and that's okay but to be

every day and that's okay but to be judgmental is to be sort of like the

judgmental is to be sort of like the Pharisees and this uh in the New

Pharisees and this uh in the New Testament who were um you know they

Testament who were um you know they would make a show of their faith and

would make a show of their faith and they would pray on the street corners

they would pray on the street corners and and Jesus said you know what you're

and and Jesus said you know what you're going to pray go to your prayer closet

going to pray go to your prayer closet and pray in private don't make a show of

and pray in private don't make a show of it the way these Hypocrites do and um

it the way these Hypocrites do and um that's kind of judg others by I'm better

that's kind of judg others by I'm better than you I'm look at me I'm praying on a

than you I'm look at me I'm praying on a street corner boy I must be really loved

street corner boy I must be really loved by God MH no that's judgmentalism that's

by God MH no that's judgmentalism that's hypocrisy you know we we'

hypocrisy you know we we' um you were talking a little bit earlier

um you were talking a little bit earlier about you can't what did you say

about you can't what did you say something

something about you can't Good Deed your way into

about you can't Good Deed your way into heaven right you know and I think about

heaven right you know and I think about that a lot yeah I got a lot of bad

that a lot yeah I got a lot of bad things that I did in my life yeah and uh

things that I did in my life yeah and uh probably more bad than good without a

probably more bad than good without a doubt yeah and um not probably without a

doubt and so now I feel like I'm trying to make up for a lot of

like I'm trying to make up for a lot of lost time and you know and I talk to a

lost time and you know and I talk to a guy like you and you and you say you no

guy like you and you and you say you no good deeds aren't going to get you into

good deeds aren't going to get you into heaven yeah and then and I've been um I

heaven yeah and then and I've been um I had a priest on a couple months ago I

had a priest on a couple months ago I told you and and uh I've been meeting

told you and and uh I've been meeting with him every once in a while and

with him every once in a while and having coffee and kind of picking his

having coffee and kind of picking his brain off camera and um and uh I asked

brain off camera and um and uh I asked him about that and

him about that and and he didn't necessarily say the

and he didn't necessarily say the opposite and I don't I don't want to put

opposite and I don't I don't want to put words in his mouth but he had kind

of eluded to the fact that maybe maybe he does pay attention to

maybe maybe he does pay attention to some of the good that you're injecting

some of the good that you're injecting into the world oh definitely here here's

into the world oh definitely here here's here's how I would Envision

here's how I would Envision it I I'm kind of um I like mathematics

it I I'm kind of um I like mathematics so here's kind of the equation as I see

so here's kind of the equation as I see it and as I believe the Bible presents

it and as I believe the Bible presents it Jesus Jesus plus nothing equals

it Jesus Jesus plus nothing equals eternal life plus Good

eternal life plus Good Deeds so in other words coming to faith

Deeds so in other words coming to faith in Christ is a gift we can't earn it we

in Christ is a gift we can't earn it we don't deserve it we don't Merit it we

don't deserve it we don't Merit it we can only receive it in a prayer of

can only receive it in a prayer of repentance and faith I'm sorry for my

repentance and faith I'm sorry for my sins I want to turn from that I want to

sins I want to turn from that I want to receive you as my Lord and Savior My

receive you as my Lord and Savior My forgiver My leader I want to follow you

forgiver My leader I want to follow you all the days of my life thank you for

all the days of my life thank you for forgiving my sins um Jesus plus nothing

forgiving my sins um Jesus plus nothing that we can Merit equals eternal life

that we can Merit equals eternal life but then there's the other part of the

but then there's the other part of the equation so now you've become a

equation so now you've become a Christian now you have eternal life so

Christian now you have eternal life so it's Jesus plus nothing equals eternal

it's Jesus plus nothing equals eternal life plus Good Deeds The Good Deeds are

life plus Good Deeds The Good Deeds are on the other side of the equation they

on the other side of the equation they don't earn your way to heaven they come

don't earn your way to heaven they come because now you've become a follower of

because now you've become a follower of Jesus and you do good deeds because the

Jesus and you do good deeds because the holy spirit is working in you and and

holy spirit is working in you and and and you want to you know like I I did

and you want to you know like I I did this abortion set up this abortion for

this abortion set up this abortion for woman um when I was an atheist um now as

woman um when I was an atheist um now as a Christian I do fundraising for Chris's

a Christian I do fundraising for Chris's pregnancy centers that help women who

pregnancy centers that help women who have a pregnancy that is unwanted uh to

have a pregnancy that is unwanted uh to realize that they could keep their child

realize that they could keep their child or they can adopt it out and and to help

or they can adopt it out and and to help them through that crisis so am am I

them through that crisis so am am I doing good deeds to earn my way to

doing good deeds to earn my way to heaven no I'm doing that because God has

heaven no I'm doing that because God has changed my life I'm doing that because

changed my life I'm doing that because God has changed my values you're doing

God has changed my values you're doing good deeds not not in a desperate

good deeds not not in a desperate attempt to claw your way to God I hope I

attempt to claw your way to God I hope I do enough I hope my my balance between

do enough I hope my my balance between good and bad is no you're doing good

good and bad is no you're doing good deeds because as when you come to Christ

deeds because as when you come to Christ as a free gift now your values change

as a free gift now your values change and now yes you do do good deeds you do

and now yes you do do good deeds you do uh serve others you do live as hopefully

uh serve others you do live as hopefully um with a sense of the way Jesus lived

um with a sense of the way Jesus lived in in in helping other people who are in

in in in helping other people who are in need and so forth so yes good deeds have

need and so forth so yes good deeds have a role in the Christian Life life but

a role in the Christian Life life but not a role that contributes in any way

not a role that contributes in any way to Salvation it comes after salvation

to Salvation it comes after salvation after we've received Christ as our

after we've received Christ as our forgiver and leader

forgiver and leader then we do good deeds because we're

then we do good deeds because we're changed and and you know I do things

changed and and you know I do things today I never would have done when I was

today I never would have done when I was an atheist so I didn't give a rip about

an atheist so I didn't give a rip about people uh now I do because they're made

people uh now I do because they're made in the image of God and so I see that

in the image of God and so I see that now and God's changed my values and so

now and God's changed my values and so now I do hopefully some good things um

now I do hopefully some good things um and does God take cognizance of that

and does God take cognizance of that yeah he does does um most Scholars I

yeah he does does um most Scholars I interview believe that there will be

interview believe that there will be rewards in heaven based on how we've

rewards in heaven based on how we've lived our Christian Life In other words

lived our Christian Life In other words our journey to Heaven is not based on

our journey to Heaven is not based on how good we are it's based on

how good we are it's based on forgiveness this free gift of Grace but

forgiveness this free gift of Grace but then how we live our life as Christians

then how we live our life as Christians how we serve others how we do good stuff

how we serve others how we do good stuff for others God will ultimately reward us

for others God will ultimately reward us for that uh in heaven how so well that's

for that uh in heaven how so well that's a good question because let's say we go

a good question because let's say we go both get to heaven and I'm looking at

both get to heaven and I'm looking at you and going hey he's getting treated

you and going hey he's getting treated better than me he's getting rewarded

better than me he's getting rewarded because sea you know he did a bunch of

because sea you know he did a bunch of nice things and I didn't do as many and

nice things and I didn't do as many and now I feel bad and here I am in heaven

now I feel bad and here I am in heaven and I'm pissed off I mean that could

and I'm pissed off I mean that could happen here's the way I think it

happen here's the way I think it happens

happens um let's say that I'm a let's say that

um let's say that I'm a let's say that you're a connoisseur an expert on

you're a connoisseur an expert on classical music you studied it you

classical music you studied it you played the violin May

played the violin May um you know all the great

um you know all the great composers um you love to listen to

composers um you love to listen to classical music it feeds your

classical music it feeds your soul I don't I like rock and roll I'm an

soul I don't I like rock and roll I'm an average guy I don't have that

average guy I don't have that sensitivity in heaven where there is

sensitivity in heaven where there is incredible

incredible music I will listen to it as someone

music I will listen to it as someone without much music taste and go

without much music taste and go wow that is the most beautiful sound

wow that is the most beautiful sound I've ever heard

I've ever heard you will listen to it as a connoisseur

you will listen to it as a connoisseur of classical music your appreciation of

of classical music your appreciation of it will be deeper cuz you will you will

it will be deeper cuz you will you will experience it in a deeper way I won't

experience it in a deeper way I won't know that just being next to you we'll

know that just being next to you we'll sit next to we'll go isn't this music

sit next to we'll go isn't this music unbelievable you go yeah it's

unbelievable you go yeah it's unbelievable but you're experiencing on

unbelievable but you're experiencing on a deeper level than I am because I don't

a deeper level than I am because I don't have what you have I didn't spend my

have what you have I didn't spend my life studying classical music you see

life studying classical music you see what I'm saying so that way I'm not

what I'm saying so that way I'm not jealous of you I'm we're both really

jealous of you I'm we're both really enjoying this music in heaven but you're

enjoying this music in heaven but you're experiencing a deeper level I think

experiencing a deeper level I think that's kind of how it's going to work um

that's kind of how it's going to work um so that I don't get jealous and and and

so that I don't get jealous and and and think that I've missed out and part of

think that I've missed out and part of it is when you live a

it is when you live a lifestyle of serving others of doing

lifestyle of serving others of doing good deeds of Living Like Jesus um uh

good deeds of Living Like Jesus um uh yes I think God will reward you for that

yes I think God will reward you for that but you will resonate so much

but you will resonate so much more with this perfect place called

more with this perfect place called Heaven that maybe I will Who is maybe a

Heaven that maybe I will Who is maybe a pretty good guy but you know I didn't

pretty good guy but you know I didn't quite do much with my life as a

quite do much with my life as a Christian and but I I made it in because

Christian and but I I made it in because I received Christ and and I did some

I received Christ and and I did some good things but um My Rewards are going

good things but um My Rewards are going to be less so you believe it will be you

believe the person that injected more good into the world may have a more

good into the world may have a more enjoyable yes Consciousness I think I

enjoyable yes Consciousness I think I think thought process in heaven than

think thought process in heaven than somebody who has not there's Jesus

somebody who has not there's Jesus himself said um blessed are those um

himself said um blessed are those um when you are persecuted when people say

when you are persecuted when people say all kinds of false things about you

all kinds of false things about you because of me because great will your

because of me because great will your reward be in heaven so Sean when you

reward be in heaven so Sean when you step out and you do things pointing

step out and you do things pointing people toward Jesus Through Your show

people toward Jesus Through Your show and um and you're criticized for it and

and um and you're criticized for it and people attack you on social media or

people attack you on social media or whatever God is saying blessed are you

whatever God is saying blessed are you when you honor me despite the the

when you honor me despite the the persecution the arrows of hate that you

persecution the arrows of hate that you get because great will your reward be in

get because great will your reward be in heaven that's one example that he gives

heaven that's one example that he gives in scripture of how he will reward

in scripture of how he will reward people who have endured persecution and

people who have endured persecution and and hatred and and social media attacks

and hatred and and social media attacks in this world because of him great will

in this world because of him great will they be rewarded in heaven so I think

they be rewarded in heaven so I think yes I think there will be rewards in

yes I think there will be rewards in heaven I think it will be um it won't be

heaven I think it will be um it won't be the same exact experience for everybody

the same exact experience for everybody not every Theologian agrees with that

not every Theologian agrees with that but I I think I think the evidence is

but I I think I think the evidence is strong that that's true have you heard

strong that that's true have you heard any of the other theories yeah I quote

any of the other theories yeah I quote um I did a book called the case for

um I did a book called the case for heaven and in that book I interviewed a

heaven and in that book I interviewed a scholar um and um I think he made

scholar um and um I think he made reference to another scholar who just

reference to another scholar who just just doesn't believe it doesn't believe

just doesn't believe it doesn't believe that anybody's going to be treated any

that anybody's going to be treated any differently in heaven that we'll all be

differently in heaven that we'll all be treated exactly the same in heaven and

treated exactly the same in heaven and and I'm sure we will be all treated

and I'm sure we will be all treated exactly the same but for some people

exactly the same but for some people because of who they are and how they

because of who they are and how they live their life it will resonate deeper

live their life it will resonate deeper with them in my view and their

with them in my view and their experience even though others will not

experience even though others will not sense it their experience will be ever

sense it their experience will be ever deeper than what other people might have

deeper than what other people might have I think that's biblical it makes sense

I think that's biblical it makes sense yeah it does make sense yeah so so good

yeah it does make sense yeah so so good deeds are a good thing and when they're

deeds are a good thing and when they're done for the right purpose when they're

done for the right purpose when they're done try to earn our way to God they're

done try to earn our way to God they're useless but when they're done out of a

useless but when they're done out of a heart of gratitude to God and God I want

heart of gratitude to God and God I want to serve you I want to honor you God you

to serve you I want to honor you God you know what I'm going to do I know this

know what I'm going to do I know this sounds crazy I know I'm going to get

sounds crazy I know I'm going to get attacked for this I'm going to bury four

attacked for this I'm going to bury four Bibles in the cement Foundation that

Bibles in the cement Foundation that we're

we're building just as a way of saying I want

building just as a way of saying I want to build what I'm doing on

to build what I'm doing on you I think he'll reward that I think

you I think he'll reward that I think that's the kind of thing he'll say you

that's the kind of thing he'll say you know what you're going to get attacked

know what you're going to get attacked for that you're going to get made fun of

for that you're going to get made fun of for that blessed are you when you take

for that blessed are you when you take those in inss for me great will your

those in inss for me great will your reward be in heaven he sees that stuff

reward be in heaven he sees that stuff he he sees how people live for him and

he he sees how people live for him and and I don't believe it's a it's a wasted

and I don't believe it's a it's a wasted effort because it comes out of a sincere

effort because it comes out of a sincere heart you're not motivated by anything

heart you're not motivated by anything except I believe sincerely I want to do

except I believe sincerely I want to do this it's a way to to honor God and um

this it's a way to to honor God and um and he knows that do those attacks

and he knows that do those attacks bother you when they happen you know

bother you when they happen you know yeah of course they do you know to some

yeah of course they do you know to some degree and I always go back to that

degree and I always go back to that verse from Jesus saying is your reward

verse from Jesus saying is your reward in heaven um blessed are you when men

in heaven um blessed are you when men persecute you and say all kinds of

persecute you and say all kinds of things falsely about you because of me

things falsely about you because of me um but it still hurts you know you're on

um but it still hurts you know you're on social media and 90% of the people I

social media and 90% of the people I meet on social media are really nice

meet on social media are really nice folks and then there that 10% that just

folks and then there that 10% that just love to attack and and yeah it it gets

love to attack and and yeah it it gets you down a bit I me just being honest

you down a bit I me just being honest doesn't bother me that much what bothers

doesn't bother me that much what bothers me is when it's a when it's the

me is when it's a when it's the Christian crowd that bothers that really

Christian crowd that bothers that really gets to me yeah yeah I get that it's

gets to me yeah yeah I get that it's like man I feel like I'm doing something

like man I feel like I'm doing something good here what yeah what is your problem

good here what yeah what is your problem right right like Y is what you do all

right right like Y is what you do all day you know run around and harass other

day you know run around and harass other Christians for like trying to like what

Christians for like trying to like what and I've had a couple Scholars that have

and I've had a couple Scholars that have attacked me um that's why I like to

attacked me um that's why I like to interview renowned scholars in my

interview renowned scholars in my research so that I'm going to the best

research so that I'm going to the best possible sources for things but you'll

possible sources for things but you'll get other Scholars and no no no he's

get other Scholars and no no no he's wrong and here's why and I go I always

wrong and here's why and I go I always listen to him but then I think n this

listen to him but then I think n this first scholar makes more sense yeah you

first scholar makes more sense yeah you know I watched I think uh I found uh

know I watched I think uh I found uh John I got to thank John too for

John I got to thank John too for connecting me John Burke yeah um thank

connecting me John Burke yeah um thank you John um you know I that's how I

you John um you know I that's how I found him in that documentary um was the

found him in that documentary um was the case for heaven yeah and I think it was

case for heaven yeah and I think it was at the beginning of that you guys you

at the beginning of that you guys you you were having a conversation about

you were having a conversation about how people are scared of death yeah and

how people are scared of death yeah and they are everybody it seems like a lot

they are everybody it seems like a lot of people want to leave kind of a

of people want to leave kind of a a legacy or a legacy behind yeah and

a legacy or a legacy behind yeah and it's interesting I remember when I

it's interesting I remember when I watched it I

watched it I was uh um you know I did three and a

was uh um you know I did three and a half years of talk therapy from

half years of talk therapy from [Music]

[Music] from combat stress yeah and uh for my

from combat stress yeah and uh for my time and service and uh at the agency

time and service and uh at the agency and and I remember

and and I remember my my doc was asking me what my biggest

my my doc was asking me what my biggest fear

fear was and my biggest fear wasn't death my

was and my biggest fear wasn't death my biggest fear was that nobody will

biggest fear was that nobody will remember me when I die yeah and then you

remember me when I die yeah and then you know and then

know and then probably damn near 10 years later I'm

probably damn near 10 years later I'm watching this yeah documentary that you

watching this yeah documentary that you produced or and and you're talking about

produced or and and you're talking about it and i' never I've never heard anybody

it and i' never I've never heard anybody else say that yeah apparently it's more

else say that yeah apparently it's more common than I thought but I talked this

common than I thought but I talked this one professor and he said I I I have a

one professor and he said I I I have a large class of students I always asked

large class of students I always asked this question how many of you know the

this question how many of you know the first names of your great great

first names of your great great grandparents he said all the years

grandparents he said all the years nobody has known the first name of the

nobody has known the first name of the great great grandfa said one guy um he

great great grandfa said one guy um he said we're forgotten we will be

said we're forgotten we will be forgotten and and some people will try

forgotten and and some people will try to write the Great American novel or

to write the Great American novel or they'll try to paint the most beautiful

they'll try to paint the most beautiful painting of the world or they'll try to

painting of the world or they'll try to create a skyscraper so that somehow

create a skyscraper so that somehow they'll be

they'll be remembered but it's a vain attempt we're

remembered but it's a vain attempt we're going to be forgotten some people

going to be forgotten some people remember a little longer than others but

remember a little longer than others but the truth is most people have forgotten

the truth is most people have forgotten um pretty quickly and uh but that

um pretty quickly and uh but that motivates a lot lot of people in a

motivates a lot lot of people in a negative way too sir who's the guy that

negative way too sir who's the guy that killed John lenon uh Chapman um he told

killed John lenon uh Chapman um he told the pero I killed him because I wanted a

the pero I killed him because I wanted a piece of his Fame he wanted to be famous

piece of his Fame he wanted to be famous so he killed John John Lennon the beetle

so he killed John John Lennon the beetle um people do evil things to be known um

um people do evil things to be known um to be remembered or they do they try to

to be remembered or they do they try to do great things well it's neither of

do great things well it's neither of them work I mean it's it's a vain

them work I mean it's it's a vain attempt um well I'll be forgotten do you

attempt um well I'll be forgotten do you think about that often

think about that often it doesn't bother me as much anymore

it doesn't bother me as much anymore after I did that movie and wrote that

after I did that movie and wrote that book about heaven it's like you know I

book about heaven it's like you know I know where I'm going after I die um and

know where I'm going after I die um and I don't have to worry about that I I

I don't have to worry about that I I came close to death we were talking at

came close to death we were talking at breakfast in

breakfast in 2011

um and um lingered between life and death for several days and um that was

death for several days and um that was that was maybe the most clarifying

that was maybe the most clarifying experience of my life because all all of

experience of my life because all all of a sudden I'm saying what's what is

a sudden I'm saying what's what is really important what really matters

really important what really matters when you're you know I have the doctor

when you're you know I have the doctor look at me and say you're one step away

look at me and say you're one step away from a coma two steps away from dying I

from a coma two steps away from dying I I was on the verge of dying and uh my

I was on the verge of dying and uh my wife found me

wife found me unconscious and um when you're in that

unconscious and um when you're in that situation nothing is more important

situation nothing is more important nothing matters more than what happens

nothing matters more than what happens when I close my eyes for the last time

when I close my eyes for the last time in this

in this world that's it it you don't care about

world that's it it you don't care about a legacy you don't care am I going to be

a legacy you don't care am I going to be remembered or forgotten doesn't matter

remembered or forgotten doesn't matter what matters is what happens when I

what matters is what happens when I close my eyes for the last time in this

close my eyes for the last time in this world where do I open them next that's

world where do I open them next that's all that

all that matters what about

matters what about family yeah well that's why that's why

family yeah well that's why that's why um you know we share Jesus with our

um you know we share Jesus with our family with our grandkids with our son

family with our grandkids with our son and daughter both Christians and I think

and daughter both Christians and I think the highest

the highest achievement I can attain as a

achievement I can attain as a grandfather as a father is to see my

grandfather as a father is to see my children come to Faith In Jesus and um

children come to Faith In Jesus and um my son's a PhD in theology a professor

my son's a PhD in theology a professor at a seminary um written many books

at a seminary um written many books about prayer and so forth and my

about prayer and so forth and my daughter is a novelist she writes uh

daughter is a novelist she writes uh fiction but she always weaves the gospel

fiction but she always weaves the gospel into the fiction they're both serving

into the fiction they're both serving God and my little grandchildren com into

God and my little grandchildren com into Faith one by one and that becomes the

Faith one by one and that becomes the most important thing to me you know

most important thing to me you know people say What are you do in the later

people say What are you do in the later years of your life you're in your 70s

years of your life you're in your 70s now I want to see my grandkids come to

now I want to see my grandkids come to Faith I want to see them and they are

Faith I want to see them and they are one by one and um that's that's

thrilling is family important to to Jesus yes it seems

Jesus yes it seems like and I can't I don't know if it's

like and I can't I don't know if it's all or if it's almost all it seems like

all or if it's almost all it seems like in these near-death experiences which

in these near-death experiences which you have your new book coming out yeah

you have your new book coming out yeah that and I you know I haven't dove into

that and I you know I haven't dove into yours but talking to John Burke there's

yours but talking to John Burke there's always family

always family lineage am I correct on that what do you

lineage am I correct on that what do you mean by family lineage I mean a lot of

mean by family lineage I mean a lot of people are

people are seeing Oh past relatives yes absolutely

seeing Oh past relatives yes absolutely absolutely in fact um deathbed Visions I

absolutely in fact um deathbed Visions I write about deathbed Vision which are

write about deathbed Vision which are different than near-death experience in

different than near-death experience in near-death experience a person is

near-death experience a person is clinically dead mhm

clinically dead mhm um maybe no heartbeat no brain waves and

um maybe no heartbeat no brain waves and yet they see things and hear things some

yet they see things and hear things some of them they couldn't see or hear if

of them they couldn't see or hear if they didn't have an authentic aut body

they didn't have an authentic aut body experience but they're going to come

experience but they're going to come back they're they're they're temporarily

back they're they're they're temporarily dead so to speak deathbed Visions happen

dead so to speak deathbed Visions happen when a person is about to die

when a person is about to die permanently and it's a fascinating I

permanently and it's a fascinating I interviewed the world's leading expert

interviewed the world's leading expert on these and tens of thousands of these

on these and tens of thousands of these cases have been studied um the this is

cases have been studied um the this is very common in the Bible Stephen before

very common in the Bible Stephen before he was stoned to death saw heaven open

he was stoned to death saw heaven open up and he got a glimpse of what was to

up and he got a glimpse of what was to come and many people before they die get

come and many people before they die get a glimpse of what is to come um um it's

a glimpse of what is to come um um it's interesting Jesus told a

interesting Jesus told a story uh about

story uh about Lazarus uh and um the

Lazarus uh and um the beggar um the beggar during his

beggar um the beggar during his lifetime um

lifetime um ignored or was treated poorly by Lazarus

ignored or was treated poorly by Lazarus Lazarus was rich and he treated the the

Lazarus was rich and he treated the the the beggar with disdain and yet here we

the beggar with disdain and yet here we have Lazarus now uh dead but in in Hades

have Lazarus now uh dead but in in Hades in separated from God and the beggar is

in separated from God and the beggar is with god

with god um and Jesus said something interesting

um and Jesus said something interesting he said the Angels carried

he said the Angels carried Lazarus to

Lazarus to God and what's fasc about these these

God and what's fasc about these these Visions deathbed Visions is how many

Visions deathbed Visions is how many people seeing Angels coming for

people seeing Angels coming for them um I mean it is it is so common at

them um I mean it is it is so common at one hospice which was a huge hospice

one hospice which was a huge hospice operation in New York state they asked

operation in New York state they asked people they said tell us if you have a

people they said tell us if you have a um a vision or a vivid dream before you

um a vision or a vivid dream before you die um that um is astounding to you or

die um that um is astounding to you or gives you a glimpse of what's to come or

gives you a glimpse of what's to come or whatever 88% had something like that 88%

whatever 88% had something like that 88% my great-grandmother had this did she

my great-grandmother had this did she really did whated she saw I

was I wasn't in a place where I took it seriously yeah at the time to be honest

seriously yeah at the time to be honest with you but um I heard my mom talk

with you but um I heard my mom talk about it and I remember um I remember

about it and I remember um I remember going through it and seeing her in there

going through it and seeing her in there and she saw a lot of relatives Y and uh

and she saw a lot of relatives Y and uh and she started calling out people's

and she started calling out people's names yes that nobody knew who the hell

names yes that nobody knew who the hell that she was talking about yeah and very

that she was talking about yeah and very common and here's how we know that

common and here's how we know that they're authentic couple things tell me

they're authentic couple things tell me that these are authentic number one how

that these are authentic number one how common they are um here we are what were

common they are um here we are what were the chances that you've had Direct

the chances that you've had Direct experience with that through a relative

experience with that through a relative I just want to I just sorry I just want

I just want to I just sorry I just want to interject

to interject to I believe my I think my great grandma

to I believe my I think my great grandma was aund she was 101 or 102 years old

was aund she was 101 or 102 years old wow sharp as attack we're not

wow sharp as attack we're not talking zero dementia wow you got good

talking zero dementia wow you got good jeans one side of my family but um but

jeans one side of my family but um but but seriously sharp as a tag just like

but seriously sharp as a tag just like me and you sitting here right now today

me and you sitting here right now today and uh not that I'm sharp as aack but uh

and uh not that I'm sharp as aack but uh but but I I I just want to this isn't

but but I I I just want to this isn't like some crazy

like some crazy old it's a good point this is a good

old it's a good point this is a good point that was with it all the way until

point that was with it all the way until the end it is I'm telling you Sean it is

the end it is I'm telling you Sean it is so common um um Billy Graham's Pulpit

so common um um Billy Graham's Pulpit partner Charles Templeton who became an

partner Charles Templeton who became an atheist and later came back to Faith

atheist and later came back to Faith before he died said to his wife on his

before he died said to his wife on his deathbed meline can you see them can you

deathbed meline can you see them can you hear they're here he said what are you

hear they're here he said what are you talking about the Angels you can't see

talking about the Angels you can't see them they're here they're right here in

them they're here they're right here in this room they're coming for me they're

this room they're coming for me they're singing they're so beautiful I'm going

singing they're so beautiful I'm going to heaven um Billy Graham's maternal

to heaven um Billy Graham's maternal grandmother same thing um and they often

grandmother same thing um and they often see people but here's what's interesting

see people but here's what's interesting children who die you would think if this

children who die you would think if this is just something in someone's

is just something in someone's imagination subjective experience a

imagination subjective experience a child if they saw an angel before they

child if they saw an angel before they died would think they would have wings

died would think they would have wings because children's stories always have

because children's stories always have wings on the

wings on the Angels that's not what happens so

Angels that's not what happens so there's a case I studied of a of a child

there's a case I studied of a of a child she was dying and she said to her mother

she was dying and she said to her mother mommy can you see them and you see the

mommy can you see them and you see the Angels they've come for me they're so

Angels they've come for me they're so beautiful and her mother didn't want to

beautiful and her mother didn't want to deny anything so she lied and she said

deny anything so she lied and she said oh yeah yeah I see them I see them oh

oh yeah yeah I see them I see them oh the the wings are so big and her

the the wings are so big and her daughter said Mommy they don't have

daughter said Mommy they don't have wings you don't have to lie they don't

wings you don't have to lie they don't have wings and then she died and um it's

have wings and then she died and um it's just an example of you know seeing

just an example of you know seeing something not what she would have

something not what she would have anticipated but seeing Angels without

anticipated but seeing Angels without wings that's very common

wings that's very common so these deathbed Visions are powerful I

so these deathbed Visions are powerful I think in terms of giving us a glimpse

think in terms of giving us a glimpse into what to come the other example was

into what to come the other example was a woman who was dying after childbirth

a woman who was dying after childbirth in England and um um great documentation

in England and um um great documentation of her case and she she on her deathbed

of her case and she she on her deathbed she sees can you see these beautiful

she sees can you see these beautiful wonderful beings I see them I see them

wonderful beings I see them I see them and she oh here's my father her father's

and she oh here's my father her father's name Ed I can't remember his name say Ed

name Ed I can't remember his name say Ed he's he's beckoning to me yes I'm going

he's he's beckoning to me yes I'm going to come Ed I'm going to come oh there's

to come Ed I'm going to come oh there's VA there why is VA there and then she

VA there why is VA there and then she died well VA was her

died well VA was her sister she didn't know three weeks

sister she didn't know three weeks earlier VA had died they didn't tell her

earlier VA had died they didn't tell her because she was so sick they didn't want

because she was so sick they didn't want to cause her to die from the shock of

to cause her to die from the shock of her sister die so they never told her

her sister die so they never told her wow and here she is seeing her in the

wow and here she is seeing her in the Life to Come

Life to Come that's another kind of corroboration

that's another kind of corroboration that I always look for corroboration how

that I always look for corroboration how do I know it's not just in your head and

do I know it's not just in your head and um so I think that's a good example of

um so I think that's a good example of corroboration when people see something

corroboration when people see something that they could not have anticipated

that they could not have anticipated like a relative they didn't know had

like a relative they didn't know had die wow that's pretty profound yeah very

die wow that's pretty profound yeah very very let's move into is God real the

very let's move into is God real the book yeah what is some of the evidence

book yeah what is some of the evidence that really stood out to you well talk

that really stood out to you well talk about DNA yeah the universe yeah what is

about DNA yeah the universe yeah what is what are some of the things that really

what are some of the things that really just stood out to you I think one of the

just stood out to you I think one of the most powerful discoveries of modern ages

most powerful discoveries of modern ages this only goes back what 50 to 100 years

this only goes back what 50 to 100 years um people used to think that the

um people used to think that the Universe was eternal it always existed

Universe was eternal it always existed but now we know from a series of

but now we know from a series of scientific discoveries and philosophical

scientific discoveries and philosophical arguments from the last century or so

arguments from the last century or so that the Universe had a beginning in the

that the Universe had a beginning in the past at some point in the past the

past at some point in the past the universe began to exist um in fact the

universe began to exist um in fact the great cosmologist Alexander valin him

great cosmologist Alexander valin him and two other cosmologists um cosmology

and two other cosmologists um cosmology just means a study of the origin of the

just means a study of the origin of the universe uh came up with a theorem that

universe uh came up with a theorem that says that um even if our universe turns

says that um even if our universe turns out to be one small part of a Multiverse

out to be one small part of a Multiverse the Multiverse itself must have had a

the Multiverse itself must have had a beginning so what does that mean that

beginning so what does that mean that the Universe had a beginning well it

the Universe had a beginning well it hearkens back to an argument for the

hearkens back to an argument for the existence of God that's been popularized

existence of God that's been popularized by my friend a philosopher Dr William

by my friend a philosopher Dr William Lang Craig it goes like this whatever

Lang Craig it goes like this whatever begins to exist has a cause we now know

begins to exist has a cause we now know that the Universe began to

that the Universe began to exist therefore the universe has a cause

exist therefore the universe has a cause behind it what kind of a cause can bring

behind it what kind of a cause can bring a universe into existence well it must

a universe into existence well it must be Transcendent which means apart from

be Transcendent which means apart from creation it must be immaterial or spirit

creation it must be immaterial or spirit because it existed before the physical

because it existed before the physical world must be timeless or Eternal

world must be timeless or Eternal because it existed before physical time

because it existed before physical time came into being must be powerful given

came into being must be powerful given the immensity of the creation event must

the immensity of the creation event must be smart given the incredible Precision

be smart given the incredible Precision of the creation event must be personal

of the creation event must be personal because they had to make the decision to

because they had to make the decision to create must be caring because he so

create must be caring because he so carefully crafted a habitat that we

carefully crafted a habitat that we could exist in um and the scientific

could exist in um and the scientific principle of aam's Razer tells us there

principle of aam's Razer tells us there would be just one

would be just one Creator so that's a description of the

Creator so that's a description of the god of of the Bible right there

god of of the Bible right there Transcendent immaterial or Spirit

Transcendent immaterial or Spirit Eternal powerful smart personal caring

Eternal powerful smart personal caring it's a description of the god of the

it's a description of the god of the Bible that discovery of the universe

Bible that discovery of the universe having a beginning I think is probably

having a beginning I think is probably the single strongest argument from

the single strongest argument from science that God must exist the second

science that God must exist the second area is physics the fine-tuning of the

area is physics the fine-tuning of the universe the universe is finally tuned

universe the universe is finally tuned on a Razor's Edge so that life can exist

on a Razor's Edge so that life can exist in other words uh the numbers that

in other words uh the numbers that govern the operation of the universe if

govern the operation of the universe if you were to change them just slightly

you were to change them just slightly life would be impossible so in other

life would be impossible so in other words if you go out in a summer night

words if you go out in a summer night and look up at the sky and instead of

and look up at the sky and instead of seeing A Sky Full of Stars you saw 50 to

seeing A Sky Full of Stars you saw 50 to 100 giant dials in the sky and each dial

100 giant dials in the sky and each dial could be calibrated to one of trillions

could be calibrated to one of trillions of possible settings that is a picture

of possible settings that is a picture of what modern physics tells us our

of what modern physics tells us our universe is like 50 to 100 of these uh

universe is like 50 to 100 of these uh dimensions of physics it have to be

dimensions of physics it have to be perfectly calibrated so life can I'll

perfectly calibrated so life can I'll give you some examples we all know what

give you some examples we all know what gravity is right if I drop my cell phone

gravity is right if I drop my cell phone for the millionth time if I drop this

for the millionth time if I drop this cell phone it's going to hit the ground

cell phone it's going to hit the ground because of gravity

because of gravity um but gravity is finely tuned so that

um but gravity is finely tuned so that life can exist how finely tuned picture

life can exist how finely tuned picture a ruler across the entire known universe

a ruler across the entire known universe 15 billion light years and is broken

15 billion light years and is broken down in 1in

down in 1in increments that ruler represents the

increments that ruler represents the range along which the force of gravity

range along which the force of gravity could have been calibrated anywhere

could have been calibrated anywhere along that ruler but it happens to be at

along that ruler but it happens to be at the exact right place so that life can

the exact right place so that life can exist what if we changed it let's change

exist what if we changed it let's change the force of gravity 1 in compared to 15

the force of gravity 1 in compared to 15 billion Lightyear width of the universe

billion Lightyear width of the universe intelligent life is impossible anywhere

intelligent life is impossible anywhere in the universe just with that single

in the universe just with that single change my favorite example is the ratio

change my favorite example is the ratio between the electromagnetic force and

between the electromagnetic force and the gravitational force it has to be

the gravitational force it has to be finally tuned to one part in 10,000

finally tuned to one part in 10,000 trillion trillion trillion so how do we

trillion trillion trillion so how do we visualize that that would be like taking

visualize that that would be like taking a continent the size of North

a continent the size of North America and piling it with dimes to the

America and piling it with dimes to the Moon 238,000 miles of

Moon 238,000 miles of Dimes and then taking a billion

Dimes and then taking a billion continents the size of North America and

continents the size of North America and piling them with dimes up to the moon

piling them with dimes up to the moon and then taking one dime and spray

and then taking one dime and spray painting it red and then mixing it among

painting it red and then mixing it among all the dimes and the billion continents

all the dimes and the billion continents going up 238,000 miles and then I

going up 238,000 miles and then I blindfold you and I say you can you can

blindfold you and I say you can you can dig in among all these billion

dig in among all these billion continents the the the dimes all the way

continents the the the dimes all the way to to the moon but you can only reach in

to to the moon but you can only reach in one time and pick in pick out one dime

one time and pick in pick out one dime what are the the odds you'd get the dime

what are the the odds you'd get the dime spray painted red one chance in 10,000

spray painted red one chance in 10,000 trillion trillion trillion so that shows

trillion trillion trillion so that shows you how astronomical the odds are

you how astronomical the odds are against this it cannot happen by chance

against this it cannot happen by chance I interviewed one physicist and I said

I interviewed one physicist and I said what are the odds these numbers are

what are the odds these numbers are astronomical what are the odds this

astronomical what are the odds this could have just happened by chance he

could have just happened by chance he said oh we physicists have a term for

said oh we physicists have a term for that I said oh what is it said ain't

that I said oh what is it said ain't going to

going to happen the other area of Science and

happen the other area of Science and again this is discoveries just with

again this is discoveries just with within the last century for sure maybe

within the last century for sure maybe within the last 50 80 years is

within the last 50 80 years is DNA your body has what 100 trillion

DNA your body has what 100 trillion cells in it open up any cell and if you

cells in it open up any cell and if you were to unravel the double helix of

were to unravel the double helix of DNA from one cell it would be 6 feet

DNA from one cell it would be 6 feet tall embedded in that DNA is a

tall embedded in that DNA is a four-letter chemical alphabet that

four-letter chemical alphabet that spells out the precise assembly

spells out the precise assembly instructions for every protein out of

instructions for every protein out of which you're made

which you're made just like English uses a 26-letter

just like English uses a 26-letter alphabet to spell out

alphabet to spell out words DNA uses this four-letter chemical

words DNA uses this four-letter chemical alphabet to spell out how to build you

alphabet to spell out how to build you how to build the proteins that make

how to build the proteins that make you there is there are more words in one

you there is there are more words in one cell in your body than you would find in

cell in your body than you would find in 200 years of the Sunday New York

200 years of the Sunday New York Times wow where does that come from

Times wow where does that come from nature cannot produce information it can

nature cannot produce information it can produce patterns I live in Houston if I

produce patterns I live in Houston if I go down to G elveston and the beach and

go down to G elveston and the beach and um the sand is wet from overnight and

um the sand is wet from overnight and there's Ripple marks in the sand it

there's Ripple marks in the sand it would be logical for me to say the waves

would be logical for me to say the waves made those Ripple marks in the sand

made those Ripple marks in the sand because nature can make patterns but if

because nature can make patterns but if I'm walking down the beach and in the

I'm walking down the beach and in the wet sand I see John loves Mary with a

wet sand I see John loves Mary with a heart around it and an arrow through it

heart around it and an arrow through it I wouldn't say oh the waves made that

I wouldn't say oh the waves made that why because that's

why because that's information and without an exception

information and without an exception whenever see information whether it's a

whenever see information whether it's a painting on a cave wall whether it's a

painting on a cave wall whether it's a computer code whether it's a novel

computer code whether it's a novel whenever we see information there is

whenever we see information there is always an intelligence behind it um

always an intelligence behind it um Stephen Meyer with a PhD from Cambridge

Stephen Meyer with a PhD from Cambridge University on origin of life I

University on origin of life I interviewed him um for my book is God

interviewed him um for my book is God real and he looks at every alternative

real and he looks at every alternative explanation none of them hold water the

explanation none of them hold water the only explanation is there must be a

only explanation is there must be a Creator who in a sense signed every cell

Creator who in a sense signed every cell in our body he left behind instructions

in our body he left behind instructions written instructions four-letter

written instructions four-letter chemical alphabet on how to build you um

chemical alphabet on how to build you um and I think you take those three areas

and I think you take those three areas of science together cosmology physics

of science together cosmology physics biochemistry that make a they make a

biochemistry that make a they make a really strong case that God is

real that mind-blowing it is six feet of DNA in one cell in your body and you

DNA in one cell in your body and you have what 100 trillion cells or

have what 100 trillion cells or something like that it's just it's just

something like that it's just it's just my mindboggling and to spell it out with

my mindboggling and to spell it out with Precision I mean it's just I mean the

Precision I mean it's just I mean the more we study in science when we learn

more we study in science when we learn the universe has an origin when we learn

the universe has an origin when we learn about the fine-tuning of the that's only

about the fine-tuning of the that's only in the last 50 years or so we've

in the last 50 years or so we've understood the fine-tuning of the

understood the fine-tuning of the universe and now we're understanding DNA

universe and now we're understanding DNA more and more we look at all that we go

more and more we look at all that we go how can anybody today deny that there is

how can anybody today deny that there is a supernatural Creator I don't know

and then when you pair it with the resurrection of Jesus you go well which

resurrection of Jesus you go well which God are we talking about now we have

God are we talking about now we have Jesus demonstrated through his

Jesus demonstrated through his resurrection that he is who he claims

resurrection that he is who he claims claim to be the unique Son of God and

claim to be the unique Son of God and now we have a really strong case for not

now we have a really strong case for not just the existence of God but for the

just the existence of God but for the truth of

truth of Christianity that is mind-blowing it's

Christianity that is mind-blowing it's fun stuff isn't it it is I mean one of

fun stuff isn't it it is I mean one of the joys of my life I get to sit down

the joys of my life I get to sit down with all these great Scholars and just

with all these great Scholars and just sit there for hours sometimes days and

sit there for hours sometimes days and just really them with questions like you

just really them with questions like you do with folks and and and and you know

do with folks and and and and you know it every once in a while it just blow my

mind yeah it um wow well Le let's take uh let's take a break real quick sure

uh let's take a break real quick sure when we come back we'll dig in uh a

when we come back we'll dig in uh a little bit on your new book

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Shan all right Lee we're back from the break we're getting ready to dive into

break we're getting ready to dive into your new book and uh we're going to talk

your new book and uh we're going to talk about miracles but we were just having a

about miracles but we were just having a little side conversation about uh Hugh

little side conversation about uh Hugh Hefner well and yeah it came up because

Hefner well and yeah it came up because I saw on your water bottle you gave me

I saw on your water bottle you gave me it says the Sha Ryan Show which is

it says the Sha Ryan Show which is really cool and I was saying uh I used

really cool and I was saying uh I used to have National TV show called Faith

to have National TV show called Faith Under Fire and uh I got an opportunity

Under Fire and uh I got an opportunity to interview Hugh Hefner about his faith

to interview Hugh Hefner about his faith and uh so we go to the Playboy mansion

and uh so we go to the Playboy mansion and we're sitting there of course he's

and we're sitting there of course he's in his silk pajamas and you know usual

in his silk pajamas and you know usual outfit and he had the same kind of water

outfit and he had the same kind of water bottle except it had the Playboy symbol

bottle except it had the Playboy symbol on it and so I'm drinking from this and

on it and so I'm drinking from this and I said this isn't from the grot is it

I said this isn't from the grot is it this

this water you are definitely not the typical

water you are definitely not the typical guest I would uh say hanging out at the

guest I would uh say hanging out at the Playboy Mansion how was that experience

Playboy Mansion how was that experience uh he said you want a tour no no that's

uh he said you want a tour no no that's all right I'm fine I'll just stay here

all right I'm fine I'll just stay here in the living room that's fine what did

in the living room that's fine what did he say about his faith it was very

he say about his faith it was very interesting he had kind of a deistic

interesting he had kind of a deistic faith in other words Faith about a vague

faith in other words Faith about a vague all powerful something kind of a deal

all powerful something kind of a deal but not Jesus and not Christianity said

but not Jesus and not Christianity said it's a little too childlike for me and

it's a little too childlike for me and um a little too childlike yeah yeah

um a little too childlike yeah yeah uh so it's obvious why because he was

uh so it's obvious why because he was living a very immoral life and if he

living a very immoral life and if he were to put his trust in Jesus all of a

were to put his trust in Jesus all of a sudden that would be out the window so

sudden that would be out the window so it's easier to put your trust in a

it's easier to put your trust in a deistic general idea of a God who has no

deistic general idea of a God who has no demands on you who has no moral

demands on you who has no moral Authority in your life but then after

Authority in your life but then after the cameras turned off um I said I want

the cameras turned off um I said I want like to give you a gift and I gave him a

like to give you a gift and I gave him a copy of my book the Case for Christ and

copy of my book the Case for Christ and he was fascinated he said oh and he

he was fascinated he said oh and he opened it up and he said is there ever

opened it up and he said is there ever any real evidence for Christianity I

any real evidence for Christianity I said yeah I said have you ever looked in

said yeah I said have you ever looked in the resurrection he said no I so

the resurrection he said no I so actually there's really good evidence of

actually there's really good evidence of Resurrection really and he was very

Resurrection really and he was very interested and and we had a great

interested and and we had a great conversation I showed him the evidence I

conversation I showed him the evidence I went through it with him and gave it to

went through it with him and gave it to him and he sent me Christmas cards and I

him and he sent me Christmas cards and I tried to follow up with him a few times

tried to follow up with him a few times but I I don't think I had much what what

but I I don't think I had much what what does it Christmas card from Hugh Hefner

does it Christmas card from Hugh Hefner look like I

look like I I it was not popup

I it was not popup so I mean I'm I'm just envisioning a big

so I mean I'm I'm just envisioning a big family photo you know let's put this way

family photo you know let's put this way I think I got the G-rated version I'm

I think I got the G-rated version I'm sure there were other ones that went out

sure there were other ones that went out I'm surprised they have one yeah yeah

I'm surprised they have one yeah yeah well that's true so um anyway they have

well that's true so um anyway they have that was a bizarre experience that's

that was a bizarre experience that's pretty interesting that you went there

pretty interesting that you went there to interview but it shows that so many

to interview but it shows that so many people don't take the time to really ask

people don't take the time to really ask the kind of questions you've been asking

the kind of questions you've been asking which is how do you know this stuff what

which is how do you know this stuff what evidence is there and you know so many

evidence is there and you know so many people just kind of go through life and

people just kind of go through life and never scratch below the surface to try

never scratch below the surface to try to determine could this be true I think

to determine could this be true I think people are scared to ask questions maybe

people are scared to ask questions maybe that's true yeah you know or or

that's true yeah you know or or embarrassed but uh and I I think I think

embarrassed but uh and I I think I think a lot of people are conditioned to think

a lot of people are conditioned to think that questioning can

that questioning can be can be rude and um or or not welcomed

be can be rude and um or or not welcomed and yeah I I I mean I just think that

and yeah I I I mean I just think that you should you should be able to

you should you should be able to question everything I feel like we've

question everything I feel like we've been conditioned

been conditioned to I don't know we kind of you know

to I don't know we kind of you know we've seen it a lot the past couple

we've seen it a lot the past couple years why why are you asking questions

years why why are you asking questions true you know and it's like it's just a

true you know and it's like it's just a question why are you getting pissed off

question why are you getting pissed off that I'm asking a question and uh but

that I'm asking a question and uh but know any interestingly uh John the

know any interestingly uh John the Baptist when he got thrown in prison

Baptist when he got thrown in prison started to ask questions about God he he

started to ask questions about God he he he he wanted to know is Jesus really the

he he wanted to know is Jesus really the one we've been waiting for we to wait

one we've been waiting for we to wait for some other Messiah and um this was a

for some other Messiah and um this was a guy that should have known for sure that

guy that should have known for sure that Jesus was who he claimed to be but he

Jesus was who he claimed to be but he had questions but what did he do he

had questions but what did he do he investigated he got a couple friends

investigated he got a couple friends together said go track down Jesus and

together said go track down Jesus and ask him point blank are you the one

ask him point blank are you the one we've been waiting for we have wait for

we've been waiting for we have wait for somebody else so they track down Jesus

somebody else so they track down Jesus they ask him here's the deal did Jesus

they ask him here's the deal did Jesus get mad no he didn't say how dare John

get mad no he didn't say how dare John of all people have the tarity to express

of all people have the tarity to express a hesitation about my identity no he

a hesitation about my identity no he said look go back to John and tell him

said look go back to John and tell him what you have seen and heard the blind

what you have seen and heard the blind receed sight the lame walk those who

receed sight the lame walk those who have leprosy are cured the deaf hear the

have leprosy are cured the deaf hear the dead are raised and the good news is

dead are raised and the good news is preached to the poor now words go tell

preached to the poor now words go tell them about the evidence that you've seen

them about the evidence that you've seen that convinces you that I am who I claim

that convinces you that I am who I claim to be so like you said there's nothing

to be so like you said there's nothing wrong with questions Jesus didn't get

wrong with questions Jesus didn't get mad when you ask questions it's not like

mad when you ask questions it's not like you surprise God and he says I can't

you surprise God and he says I can't believe he asked that question you know

believe he asked that question you know God knows yeah and but isn't it true

God knows yeah and but isn't it true though a lot of people hesitate to

though a lot of people hesitate to engage ask questions don't want to look

engage ask questions don't want to look dumb maybe or they don't want to I don't

dumb maybe or they don't want to I don't know what it is but they think they're

know what it is but they think they're going to offend God in some way but

going to offend God in some way but Jesus didn't get mad at John it was

Jesus didn't get mad at John it was after this incident that Jesus got up

after this incident that Jesus got up and said among those born of women

and said among those born of women there's no one greater than John John

there's no one greater than John John the guy who ask a question you know I

the guy who ask a question you know I had I had I wanted to ask you a question

had I had I wanted to ask you a question but some sometimes I can't figure out

but some sometimes I can't figure out the right I can't figure out how to

the right I can't figure out how to articulate it I asked we have um we have

articulate it I asked we have um we have I don't go to church anymore um actually

I don't go to church anymore um actually I did go to I I went to mass after after

I did go to I I went to mass after after I interviewed uh father reill for the

I interviewed uh father reill for the first time in a really long time but

first time in a really long time but um decades and um actually not decades

um decades and um actually not decades but um so in

but um so in this in this Bible study that we had I

this in this Bible study that we had I and I could tell it got people a little

and I could tell it got people a little on edge probably I maybe articulated it

on edge probably I maybe articulated it wrong but I was talking

wrong but I was talking about why doesn't God make himself more

about why doesn't God make himself more visible yeah and

visible yeah and and I'll probably butcher this and I'm

and I'll probably butcher this and I'm sure I'll get i'll get all kinds of

sure I'll get i'll get all kinds of from from the internet people for asking

from from the internet people for asking this but you know I basically what I was

this but you know I basically what I was what I was trying to get at

what I was trying to get at is God can be hard to

is God can be hard to find I don't I I I think that God the

find I don't I I I think that God the hiddenness of God can be hard to find

hiddenness of God can be hard to find he's he I don't know if elusive is the

he's he I don't know if elusive is the right word but it's not like I can call

right word but it's not like I can call his name and he shows up and helps me

his name and he shows up and helps me immediately yeah and he is the father

immediately yeah and he is the father yeah well I'm a

yeah well I'm a father and if my son is calling my name

father and if my son is calling my name and needs help and he's hurt or he needs

and needs help and he's hurt or he needs direction or he needs guidance advice

direction or he needs guidance advice anything comforting protection yeah and

anything comforting protection yeah and I don't show up I'm labeled a

I don't show up I'm labeled a father yeah right yeah and

father yeah right yeah and so why

so why is God so hard to find at times but he

is God so hard to find at times but he is

is considered the the

considered the the the father of All fathers but sometimes

the father of All fathers but sometimes he's nowhere to be found or at least it

he's nowhere to be found or at least it appears that he's nowhere to be found

appears that he's nowhere to be found it's a great question I have a whole

it's a great question I have a whole chapter of that in my book is God real

chapter of that in my book is God real so I I think the two biggest questions

so I I think the two biggest questions that people ask these days are number

that people ask these days are number one why would loving God allow suffering

one why would loving God allow suffering and number two why is God so hidden and

and number two why is God so hidden and so I did a whole chapter in that book as

so I did a whole chapter in that book as God real addressing that question and

God real addressing that question and there's several elements to that um I

there's several elements to that um I interviewed a guy who had been a um

interviewed a guy who had been a um aspired to be a baseball player

aspired to be a baseball player professional baseball player he's a

professional baseball player he's a theologian now and he was a catcher and

theologian now and he was a catcher and he said I picture this question like a

he said I picture this question like a picture and a catcher he said Jesus is

picture and a catcher he said Jesus is the pitcher or the catcher where does

the pitcher or the catcher where does the problem lie in Jesus being quote

the problem lie in Jesus being quote unquote hidden or God being so hidden

unquote hidden or God being so hidden where's does a problem lie in the

where's does a problem lie in the pitcher or The

pitcher or The Catcher And he said theologically based

Catcher And he said theologically based on what the Bible teaches the problem

on what the Bible teaches the problem lies with the catcher it lies with us it

lies with the catcher it lies with us it says in Romans 1:20 that based on what

says in Romans 1:20 that based on what we see in

we see in nature that the existence of God is

nature that the existence of God is indisputable um that anyone who honestly

indisputable um that anyone who honestly looks at nature would walk away saying

looks at nature would walk away saying um without

um without excuse you know they would have no

excuse you know they would have no excuse for saying you know not finding

excuse for saying you know not finding god um so his M first point was the real

god um so his M first point was the real problem lies with us what the Bible says

problem lies with us what the Bible says is that we tend to suppress the evidence

is that we tend to suppress the evidence why because we want to be Gods we want

why because we want to be Gods we want to live our own lives we don't want to

to live our own lives we don't want to be told how to live we want to do what

be told how to live we want to do what we want to do and live like we want to

we want to do and live like we want to live and dog G I like getting drunk and

live and dog G I like getting drunk and dog garet if God's going to tell me not

dog garet if God's going to tell me not to do that I'm not so sure I want to

to do that I'm not so sure I want to know much about him um the Greek

know much about him um the Greek language um uses the imagery of a petal

language um uses the imagery of a petal it's like when the evidence of God

it's like when the evidence of God begins to become apparent to you

begins to become apparent to you sometimes we push down the pedal we

sometimes we push down the pedal we suppress it we suppress the evidence and

suppress it we suppress the evidence and we turn the other way so part of the

we turn the other way so part of the problem is on us that that we we're not

problem is on us that that we we're not looking for God we don't really want to

looking for God we don't really want to find God we want to live the way we want

find God we want to live the way we want to live but secondly there have been

to live but secondly there have been times in history where God has been

times in history where God has been especially evident for instance The

especially evident for instance The Parting of the Red

Parting of the Red Sea uh the Mana that comes down from

Sea uh the Mana that comes down from heaven that sustain the Israelites in

heaven that sustain the Israelites in the desert um God God's actions in the

the desert um God God's actions in the world were so obvious back then what

world were so obvious back then what happened did they become more devout no

happened did they become more devout no they fell into apostasy again so so when

they fell into apostasy again so so when we look apostasy um Rebellion against

we look apostasy um Rebellion against God you know they're worshiping um

God you know they're worshiping um golden calves and things like that they

golden calves and things like that they they turned their back against God even

they turned their back against God even though he had made his his

though he had made his his existence obvious to anyone I'm parting

existence obvious to anyone I'm parting the Red Sea for goodness sake I'm

the Red Sea for goodness sake I'm providing Mana from heaven so you can

providing Mana from heaven so you can live for goodness sake and yet their

live for goodness sake and yet their response

response is to turn their back and go the other

is to turn their back and go the other way so there's no guarantee that if God

way so there's no guarantee that if God were to write in the sky I'm here um

were to write in the sky I'm here um that we would respond because based on

that we would respond because based on the track record of humans last time he

the track record of humans last time he made himself so obvious we walked the

made himself so obvious we walked the other way and if he did do that if he

other way and if he did do that if he did in the sky I'm here I could imagine

did in the sky I'm here I could imagine all the atheist websites talking about

all the atheist websites talking about yeah it's a natural phenomenon that is

yeah it's a natural phenomenon that is precipitated by too much um um you know

precipitated by too much um um you know moisture in the atmosphere and it's you

moisture in the atmosphere and it's you know I mean they would come up with any

know I mean they would come up with any explanation other than God is real and

explanation other than God is real and God is here they have a they have a um

God is here they have a they have a um an interest in not finding him so you

an interest in not finding him so you and the other thing I would say is you

and the other thing I would say is you know the Bible says knock and you'll

know the Bible says knock and you'll find the Bible says seek and you'll find

find the Bible says seek and you'll find um in in the New Testament Hebrews it

um in in the New Testament Hebrews it says those who sincerely seek God will

says those who sincerely seek God will find him in the Old Testament Jeremiah

find him in the Old Testament Jeremiah it says that um um those who seek God

it says that um um those who seek God will find him so the fact that someone

will find him so the fact that someone hasn't found God yet does not mean they

hasn't found God yet does not mean they won't find him in fact the Bible

won't find him in fact the Bible suggests keep knocking keep seeking and

suggests keep knocking keep seeking and might be some lessons along the way that

might be some lessons along the way that God wants to teach you before you come

God wants to teach you before you come to uh to meet him um um lessons about

to uh to meet him um um lessons about perseverance lessons about whatever um

perseverance lessons about whatever um that could be a possibility but the fact

that could be a possibility but the fact that someone has not yet found god um

that someone has not yet found god um does not mean they will not find God and

does not mean they will not find God and as I said before I think anyone anywhere

as I said before I think anyone anywhere in any culture who calls out to the one

in any culture who calls out to the one true God and seeks him God will provide

true God and seeks him God will provide a way of making himself known to them

a way of making himself known to them and his message known to them I I

and his message known to them I I believe that and I've seen miraculous

believe that and I've seen miraculous ways in which he's done that um what are

ways in which he's done that um what are some of those ways oh um personally yeah

some of those ways oh um personally yeah I mean I I mentioned one earlier about

I mean I I mentioned one earlier about the guy in um um India who was brought

the guy in um um India who was brought up by gurus who's realized that Hinduism

up by gurus who's realized that Hinduism had too many contradictions to be true

had too many contradictions to be true and at age 17 he called out said God if

and at age 17 he called out said God if you're real I want to know you I I I I I

you're real I want to know you I I I I I I don't understand this is not making

I don't understand this is not making sense um I know I've messed up I want to

sense um I know I've messed up I want to be forgiven I want to you know uh and

be forgiven I want to you know uh and God brings against the laws of the land

God brings against the laws of the land missionaries to him who shared the

missionaries to him who shared the gospel with him he became a Christian

gospel with him he became a Christian later immigrated to the United States

later immigrated to the United States and we became friends um so there's an

and we became friends um so there's an example or we talked earlier about

example or we talked earlier about dreams that God would bring to in close

dreams that God would bring to in close countries in the Muslim world uh to

countries in the Muslim world uh to people Jesus dreams so there are ways in

people Jesus dreams so there are ways in which Jesus I believe makes himself more

which Jesus I believe makes himself more known at certain certain times um but I

known at certain certain times um but I think for some for most people who say

think for some for most people who say why doesn't God make himself more known

why doesn't God make himself more known what else do you want to know you know

what else do you want to know you know the you know I've got an 800,000 word

the you know I've got an 800,000 word book called The Bible that lays out just

book called The Bible that lays out just about everything you need to know have

about everything you need to know have you looked at it that kind of thing you

you looked at it that kind of thing you know yeah I mean obviously we'd like

know yeah I mean obviously we'd like them all to sit here and spend time with

them all to sit here and spend time with wouldn't we we could ask him all these

wouldn't we we could ask him all these questions and he'd have much better

questions and he'd have much better answers than I would um and we can do

answers than I would um and we can do that in heaven but um but he has given

that in heaven but um but he has given us enough he's given us enough to act on

us enough he's given us enough to act on and U and when we do act on that what's

and U and when we do act on that what's interesting when we do take a step of

interesting when we do take a step of faith in the same direction the evidence

faith in the same direction the evidence is pointing which is logical and

is pointing which is logical and rational to do if the evidence for the

rational to do if the evidence for the resurrection for the existence of God

resurrection for the existence of God from cosmology from physics from

from cosmology from physics from biochemistry all these streams of

biochemistry all these streams of evidence that are flowing in a direction

evidence that are flowing in a direction if we respond to that by taking a step

if we respond to that by taking a step of faith in the same direction the

of faith in the same direction the evidence is pointing and receive this

evidence is pointing and receive this free gift of forgiveness through Christ

free gift of forgiveness through Christ and become a follower of his he becomes

and become a follower of his he becomes more parent to us because as now as we

more parent to us because as now as we read the Bible as

read the Bible as Believers it takes on a whole new

Believers it takes on a whole new dimension um a whole new um um um aspect

dimension um a whole new um um um aspect to it that that that brings it home more

to it that that that brings it home more vividly to us than when we were not a

vividly to us than when we were not a Believer so I think the Holy Spirit as

Believer so I think the Holy Spirit as he takes resonance in us as followers of

he takes resonance in us as followers of Christ

Christ um you know when I pray to God I sense

um you know when I pray to God I sense his presence in my life stronger today

his presence in my life stronger today than I did 20 years ago um doesn't mean

than I did 20 years ago um doesn't mean I can have lunch with them but it means

I can have lunch with them but it means that there are times in my life where he

that there are times in my life where he has guided me where he has closed doors

has guided me where he has closed doors that thank God I didn't go through but

that thank God I didn't go through but he closed those doors and I didn't know

he closed those doors and I didn't know it at the time why but I look back and

it at the time why but I look back and say thank you Lord for not letting me go

say thank you Lord for not letting me go down that path because that would have

down that path because that would have been a wrong path and I see his evidence

been a wrong path and I see his evidence in my life of the guidings of the Holy

in my life of the guidings of the Holy Spirit the leadings that he gives um so

Spirit the leadings that he gives um so I mean you know there's a whole chapter

I mean you know there's a whole chapter in my book for those that are really

in my book for those that are really interested but it it is a legitimate

interested but it it is a legitimate question um and a lot of people are

question um and a lot of people are asking it these days it's especially

asking it these days it's especially among young people which book is that in

among young people which book is that in out of the 40 that

out of the 40 that you it's in is God real is okay I will

you it's in is God real is okay I will uh definitely check that out thank you

uh definitely check that out thank you yeah that's just you know it's uh I

yeah that's just you know it's uh I could uh when I first asked the question

could uh when I first asked the question I could

I could see and this is a a group of very

see and this is a a group of very trusted open-minded people and uh and uh

trusted open-minded people and uh and uh that one I could definitely

that one I could definitely see sparked a little something it's a

see sparked a little something it's a profound question and uh it was you know

profound question and uh it was you know it kind of began with you know yeah he

it kind of began with you know yeah he is he's always and I'm like yeah I get

is he's always and I'm like yeah I get that I totally get that but when I'm

that I totally get that but when I'm when I'm 12 years old

when I'm 12 years old it's not working like that you know and

it's not working like that you know and and um and it's

and um and it's just but that makes sense thank you sure

just but that makes sense thank you sure so we want to get into

so we want to get into uh I really want to go into spiritual

uh I really want to go into spiritual warfare with you but uh but this is this

warfare with you but uh but this is this is Christmas so yeah seeing the

is Christmas so yeah seeing the supernatural right and uh there's a

supernatural right and uh there's a section in here that you that you had um

section in here that you that you had um talked

talked about miracles yeah and

about miracles yeah and so let's keep it

so let's keep it Miracles are I mean to me it's one of

Miracles are I mean to me it's one of the most fascinating topics um where God

the most fascinating topics um where God will intervene in our world uh in a way

will intervene in our world uh in a way that is unmistakably him um a miracle is

that is unmistakably him um a miracle is an event brought about by the power of

an event brought about by the power of God that is a temporary exception to the

God that is a temporary exception to the ordinary course of nature for this

ordinary course of nature for this purpose of showing that God has acted in

purpose of showing that God has acted in history so he's intervening you know a

history so he's intervening you know a lot of people said well Miracles are not

lot of people said well Miracles are not possible this is what I used to think

possible this is what I used to think when I was an atheist Miracles can't

when I was an atheist Miracles can't happen why because they violate the laws

happen why because they violate the laws of nature you can't violate the laws of

of nature you can't violate the laws of nature um David Hume the famous atheist

nature um David Hume the famous atheist from Scotland that was his argument well

from Scotland that was his argument well you're misunderstanding what a miracle

you're misunderstanding what a miracle is um if I take this cell phone and I

is um if I take this cell phone and I drop it the law of gravity says it's

drop it the law of gravity says it's going to hit the ground but if I drop

going to hit the ground but if I drop this cell phone and you reach in and

this cell phone and you reach in and grab it before it hits the ground I'm

grab it before it hits the ground I'm not violating you're not violating the

not violating you're not violating the law of gravity you're not overturning

law of gravity you're not overturning earning the law of gravity you're

earning the law of gravity you're intervening and if God did create the

intervening and if God did create the universe then of course he can intervene

universe then of course he can intervene at his will in those uh laws that he he

at his will in those uh laws that he he himself created it's an intervention

himself created it's an intervention he's not overturning anything it's just

he's not overturning anything it's just a an intervention so I began to look at

a an intervention so I began to look at a couple of questions how common are

a couple of questions how common are Miracle claims really so I hired a

Miracle claims really so I hired a public opinions company to do a

public opinions company to do a scientific poll of American adults

scientific poll of American adults and I asked the question have you ever

and I asked the question have you ever had one at least one experience in your

had one at least one experience in your life that you can only explain as a

life that you can only explain as a miracle of God and 38% of American

miracle of God and 38% of American adults said yes no good so four out of

adults said yes no good so four out of 10 said yes now let's say hypothetically

10 said yes now let's say hypothetically that 99% of them are wrong they think it

that 99% of them are wrong they think it was a miracle it was just a big

was a miracle it was just a big coincidence let's wipe out

coincidence let's wipe out 99% that would still mean a million

99% that would still mean a million Miracles just in the United States so

Miracles just in the United States so Miracles I think are more common than we

Miracles I think are more common than we think and what's interesting is they

think and what's interesting is they cluster they they're not evenly

cluster they they're not evenly distributed around the planet where the

distributed around the planet where the gospel is just breaking in places like

gospel is just breaking in places like mosm Beek China Brazil that's where we

mosm Beek China Brazil that's where we see the miraculous taking place one

see the miraculous taking place one scholar said to me 90% of the growth of

scholar said to me 90% of the growth of the church in China is because someone

the church in China is because someone themselves has had a miracle take place

themselves has had a miracle take place a healing or they know someone who it's

a healing or they know someone who it's happened to 90% of that is the church

happened to 90% of that is the church growth in China so God tends to

growth in China so God tends to intervene in those places where the

intervene in those places where the gospel and often there're societies that

gospel and often there're societies that don't have Bibles or anything but

don't have Bibles or anything but they'll respond to the supernatural that

they'll respond to the supernatural that way so how do we know that it's

way so how do we know that it's real I began looking into this and Sean

real I began looking into this and Sean I found case studies published in

I found case studies published in medical

medical journals um I'll describe one of them

journals um I'll describe one of them for you a woman blind blind for 12 years

for you a woman blind blind for 12 years she had juvenile macular degeneration

she had juvenile macular degeneration which is an incurable condition she

which is an incurable condition she learned she went to a School for the

learned she went to a School for the Blind she learned how to read Braille

Blind she learned how to read Braille she walked with a white cane she married

she walked with a white cane she married a pastor Baptist pastor one night

a pastor Baptist pastor one night they're getting ready for

they're getting ready for bed and he comes up to her with tears in

bed and he comes up to her with tears in his eyes and he puts his hand on her

his eyes and he puts his hand on her shoulder and he begins to pray and he

shoulder and he begins to pray and he says

says God I know you could heal her I know you

God I know you could heal her I know you could heal her right now God I pray I

could heal her right now God I pray I ask for right now tonight you would heal

ask for right now tonight you would heal my wife of her

my wife of her blindness and she opened her eyes to

blindness and she opened her eyes to perfect eyesight saw her husband for the

perfect eyesight saw her husband for the first time she said I was blind and now

first time she said I was blind and now I see it's a miracle she has been now

I see it's a miracle she has been now she has had perfect eyesight for 47

she has had perfect eyesight for 47 years that happened 47 years ago been

years that happened 47 years ago been published in a four researchers

published in a four researchers researched it published it as a case

researched it published it as a case study in a in a um secular um um medical

study in a in a um secular um um medical journal um wow so you know so so there's

journal um wow so you know so so there's a a PhD from Harvard she's a professor

a a PhD from Harvard she's a professor at Indiana University secular University

at Indiana University secular University she's hearing stuff like this she says

she's hearing stuff like this she says wait a minute I'm going to test

wait a minute I'm going to test it let's go to mosm Beek where there's

it let's go to mosm Beek where there's supposedly an outbreak of

supposedly an outbreak of Miracles and she brings a team in they

Miracles and she brings a team in they go into the villages and they say bring

go into the villages and they say bring us all your deaf and all your blind so

us all your deaf and all your blind so they bring people are DEA blind or

they bring people are DEA blind or severely handicapped in those

severely handicapped in those areas and they tested them

areas and they tested them scientifically what is your level of

scientifically what is your level of vision what is your level of hearing

vision what is your level of hearing they did testing they determined could

they did testing they determined could you see at all or they got it down then

you see at all or they got it down then they were immediately prayed for in the

they were immediately prayed for in the name of Jesus by people who tend to have

name of Jesus by people who tend to have a track record of God using them in

a track record of God using them in healings and then immediately after that

healings and then immediately after that they were tested again scientifically

they were tested again scientifically has your vision changed has your hearing

has your vision changed has your hearing level changed and guess what they found

level changed and guess what they found virtually everyone improved to one

virtually everyone improved to one degree or the other in fact the average

degree or the other in fact the average Improvement in visual Acuity was

Improvement in visual Acuity was tenfold one woman named Martin when they

tenfold one woman named Martin when they first met her could not hear the

first met her could not hear the equivalent of a jackhammer next to her

equivalent of a jackhammer next to her after 10 minutes of Prayer in the name

after 10 minutes of Prayer in the name of Jesus she could hear normal

of Jesus she could hear normal conversations so they're thinking

conversations so they're thinking something's going on here so they said

something's going on here so they said let's test it somewhere else so they

let's test it somewhere else so they went to Brazil where the gospel is

went to Brazil where the gospel is breaking in they did the same test they

breaking in they did the same test they got the same

got the same results this was was a scientific study

results this was was a scientific study published in a peer-reviewed secular

published in a peer-reviewed secular scientific medical journal the southern

scientific medical journal the southern medical journal highly respected medical

medical journal highly respected medical journal um and I interviewed for my book

journal um and I interviewed for my book um seeing the supernatural the woman PhD

um seeing the supernatural the woman PhD that did this I said what do you make of

that did this I said what do you make of this and she said well she said this is

this and she said well she said this is not some televangelist going in and

not some televangelist going in and trying to create a atmosphere of emotion

trying to create a atmosphere of emotion and tricking people and thinking they're

and tricking people and thinking they're feeling better this isn't um trickery it

feeling better this isn't um trickery it isn't fraud she said all I can say is

isn't fraud she said all I can say is something's going

something's going on and she's right I think it's

on and she's right I think it's something miraculous wow um I

something miraculous wow um I interviewed a woman and I do the

interviewed a woman and I do the interview in the book her name was

interview in the book her name was Barbara Barbara was diagnosed with

Barbara Barbara was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis as a teenager at the

multiple sclerosis as a teenager at the male clinic have all their medical

male clinic have all their medical records have multiple witnesses to this

records have multiple witnesses to this so she goes to male clinic she's

so she goes to male clinic she's multiple sclerosis she began

multiple sclerosis she began deteriorating rapidly over 16 years

deteriorating rapidly over 16 years worse and worse and worse and worse

worse and worse and worse and worse hospitalized repeatedly with lung

hospitalized repeatedly with lung collapses and things um finally her

collapses and things um finally her doctors and her parents got together and

doctors and her parents got together and said you know what next time she gets

said you know what next time she gets pneumonia let's just let her die I mean

pneumonia let's just let her die I mean this is ridiculous she's just going to

this is ridiculous she's just going to suffer this way the let's just let her

suffer this way the let's just let her die so she's in

die so she's in hospice one lung is collapsed one lung

hospice one lung is collapsed one lung is at

is at 50% she's blind all she can see are

50% she's blind all she can see are shapes great

shapes great shapes um she has a tube in her throat

shapes um she has a tube in her throat so she can breathe it goes to oxygen

so she can breathe it goes to oxygen canisters in her garage so she could be

canisters in her garage so she could be kept alive because she couldn't breathe

kept alive because she couldn't breathe on her own um she um had lost all her

on her own um she um had lost all her muscle tone hadn't walked in seven years

muscle tone hadn't walked in seven years she lost all her muscle tone her fingers

she lost all her muscle tone her fingers were so curled up that her fingers were

were so curled up that her fingers were touching her wrists and her toes were

touching her wrists and her toes were extended like this she couldn't wear

extended like this she couldn't wear slippers and her she lost control of her

slippers and her she lost control of her bowel and her

bowel and her urination so she's dying she's in her

urination so she's dying she's in her bed at home and somebody called in wmbi

bed at home and somebody called in wmbi which is the Christian radio station in

which is the Christian radio station in Chicago and said hey Barbara's dying

Chicago and said hey Barbara's dying this woman could someone pray for her

this woman could someone pray for her just ask your audience pray for her well

just ask your audience pray for her well we documented that 450 people began

we documented that 450 people began praying for Barbara because we know

praying for Barbara because we know because they wrote letters to Barbara

because they wrote letters to Barbara saying I'm praying for you Pentecost

saying I'm praying for you Pentecost Sunday comes she's got three of her two

Sunday comes she's got three of her two or three of her friends there who are

or three of her friends there who are reading these letters of people who are

reading these letters of people who are praying for her reading them to

praying for her reading them to Barbara and out of nowhere from the

Barbara and out of nowhere from the corner of the room where there's nobody

corner of the room where there's nobody sitting she hears the voice of God

sitting she hears the voice of God saying get up my child and

walk so she's stunned these her friends didn't hear she said go get my parents

didn't hear she said go get my parents and she rips the tube from her throat

and she rips the tube from her throat and she jumps out of bed so when I'm

and she jumps out of bed so when I'm interviewing her I said what's the first

interviewing her I said what's the first thing you noticed she said Lee I jumped

thing you noticed she said Lee I jumped out of bed the first thing I noticed my

out of bed the first thing I noticed my feet were flat on the ground they they'd

feet were flat on the ground they they'd been curled they've been extended for

been curled they've been extended for for a couple years and and then I looked

for a couple years and and then I looked and my hands had opened up and then she

and my hands had opened up and then she said the third thing I noticed I could

said the third thing I noticed I could see she said you think that'd be the

see she said you think that'd be the first thing i' noticed it was actually

first thing i' noticed it was actually the third thing I

the third thing I noticed and she her her mother comes

noticed and she her her mother comes running in and grabs her calves and said

running in and grabs her calves and said your muscle tone has returned her muscle

your muscle tone has returned her muscle tone returned to her legs her father

tone returned to her legs her father came in started Waltzing around the room

came in started Waltzing around the room with

with her it was Sunday night Pentecost Sunday

her it was Sunday night Pentecost Sunday and they went to a Wesleyan Church in

and they went to a Wesleyan Church in Wheaten Illinois and they said let's go

Wheaten Illinois and they said let's go to church and tell people there's a

to church and tell people there's a service that night so they came to the

service that night so they came to the service and as they came in the pastor

service and as they came in the pastor was up front and he said does anybody

was up front and he said does anybody have any

have any announcements Barbara comes walking down

announcements Barbara comes walking down the main aisle well nobody had seen

the main aisle well nobody had seen Barbara walk in seven years they all

Barbara walk in seven years they all knew she was on the verge of d

knew she was on the verge of d and the whole place exploded with people

and the whole place exploded with people singing Amazing Grace I once was blind

singing Amazing Grace I once was blind and now I

and now I see she was instantaneously completely

see she was instantaneously completely totally healed of multiple sclerosis in

totally healed of multiple sclerosis in that instant by god wow totally healed

that instant by god wow totally healed she had two main doctors one doctor she

she had two main doctors one doctor she went to see him that Monday she went to

went to see him that Monday she went to see her doctor and he said later he said

see her doctor and he said later he said when I saw her walking down the corridor

when I saw her walking down the corridor I thought this must be a ghost she must

I thought this must be a ghost she must have died cuz this is impossible this is

have died cuz this is impossible this is medically impossible two of her doctors

medically impossible two of her doctors wrote books about it because they said

wrote books about it because they said this there is no medical explanation for

this there is no medical explanation for this uh I got to know Barbara we have

this uh I got to know Barbara we have multiple eyewitness uh eyewitnesses

multiple eyewitness uh eyewitnesses we've got the doctors who knew her and

we've got the doctors who knew her and treated her and wrote books about it

treated her and wrote books about it we've got records from The Mao Clinic um

we've got records from The Mao Clinic um she ended up marrying a pastor and uh

she ended up marrying a pastor and uh had a little church in Fredericksburg

had a little church in Fredericksburg Virginia um wow and and so you go what

Virginia um wow and and so you go what do you do with something like that what

do you do with something like that what do you do with the guy who was born with

do you do with the guy who was born with a

a gastroparesis which is a par paralysis

gastroparesis which is a par paralysis of his stomach muscles and as an infant

of his stomach muscles and as an infant he's vomiting he's he's he he can't keep

he's vomiting he's he's he he can't keep down food and they realize this is an

down food and they realize this is an incurable condition we have to insert

incurable condition we have to insert tubes into him so the food can go from

tubes into him so the food can go from his stomach to his intestine and he had

his stomach to his intestine and he had to live with that for for 16 years until

to live with that for for 16 years until one day his parents brought him to a

one day his parents brought him to a church and the pastor came up and put

church and the pastor came up and put his hand on his shoulder and prayed for

his hand on his shoulder and prayed for his healing and the guy said later it

his healing and the guy said later it was like an electric shock went from my

was like an electric shock went from my shoulder to my stomach and he was

shoulder to my stomach and he was instantaneously healed of an incurable

instantaneously healed of an incurable condition the only case of gastroparesis

condition the only case of gastroparesis that's been recorded as being healed um

that's been recorded as being healed um for researchers investigated that case

for researchers investigated that case and published it as a case study in a

and published it as a case study in a peer-reviewed medical

peer-reviewed medical journal something's going on Sean and I

journal something's going on Sean and I think what something is is God from time

think what something is is God from time to time chooses to intervene and to show

to time chooses to intervene and to show his power and to show his love and to

his power and to show his love and to show his grace in ways that capture the

show his grace in ways that capture the attention of the

attention of the world wow that's

world wow that's um that awesome that's that's amazing I

um that awesome that's that's amazing I mean I mean Barbara was the sweetest

mean I mean Barbara was the sweetest person you know when I interview people

person you know when I interview people because I interview people for books and

because I interview people for books and they Scholars and I'm I'm I'm tapping

they Scholars and I'm I'm I'm tapping into their expertise and so I always pay

into their expertise and so I always pay them because it's only right for me to

them because it's only right for me to compensate him for the time and and and

compensate him for the time and and and so at the end of my interview I went to

so at the end of my interview I went to Virginia to interview Barbara on camera

Virginia to interview Barbara on camera I have her whole interview on camera

I have her whole interview on camera I'll show it to you and um she uh so I I

I'll show it to you and um she uh so I I offered her payment for her time and so

offered her payment for her time and so sh I I can't take any I can't take

sh I I can't take any I can't take anything for this God did this this is

anything for this God did this this is this is a testimony to him and his power

this is a testimony to him and his power and his grace I couldn't I couldn't take

and his grace I couldn't I couldn't take anything um I that's very sweet you're a

anything um I that's very sweet you're a very sweet woman

very sweet woman um so I love stories like that me too I

um so I love stories like that me too I really do and I love stories where and

really do and I love stories where and this a this a form of Miracle where God

this a this a form of Miracle where God touches someone

touches someone directly um um and I have a whole

directly um um and I have a whole chapter of that in my book about people

chapter of that in my book about people through history and

through history and contemporaneously in contemporary world

contemporaneously in contemporary world who are touched by God in a supernatural

who are touched by God in a supernatural way I'll give you a quick story guy

way I'll give you a quick story guy named Robert Robert lived an immoral

named Robert Robert lived an immoral life he was a drunk he was a gambler he

life he was a drunk he was a gambler he was a womanizer uh he once got in a

was a womanizer uh he once got in a dispute with a business partner beat him

dispute with a business partner beat him up with a baseball bat got sent to

up with a baseball bat got sent to prison for it took his limo to prison

prison for it took his limo to prison took a limo home uh had a lot of money

took a limo home uh had a lot of money very wealthy he's standing on the beach

very wealthy he's standing on the beach in

in Florida and he said God spoke to me not

Florida and he said God spoke to me not through my ears but I heard it inside me

through my ears but I heard it inside me and God said Robert I've saved you more

and God said Robert I've saved you more times you'll ever know now you need to

times you'll ever know now you need to come to me through my son

come to me through my son Jesus and this guy's an atheist I I even

Jesus and this guy's an atheist I I even know who Jesus I thought Jesus was a

know who Jesus I thought Jesus was a swear word I don't even know who he is

swear word I don't even know who he is you know so the only Christian he knew

you know so the only Christian he knew was Frank gford remember the sports

was Frank gford remember the sports caster Frank gford um and so he called

caster Frank gford um and so he called up Frank said Frank you're a Christian I

up Frank said Frank you're a Christian I just had this experience God talked to

just had this experience God talked to me I heard him he said who is Jesus and

me I heard him he said who is Jesus and Frank said um get that book the Case for

Frank said um get that book the Case for Christ at least Roble world that'll

Christ at least Roble world that'll that'll explain everything so Robert

that'll explain everything so Robert gets my book he reads anyway Robert has

gets my book he reads anyway Robert has a 180 degree r radical transformation

a 180 degree r radical transformation 180° he becomes a devout follower of

180° he becomes a devout follower of Jesus he when when he is

Jesus he when when he is baptized he gets

baptized he gets baptized at the Crystal Cathedral famous

baptized at the Crystal Cathedral famous church back then in California and

church back then in California and um he tells a story about how God

um he tells a story about how God intervened talked to him and how he came

intervened talked to him and how he came to Faith and they began talking to do

to Faith and they began talking to do you know God have you have you met him

you know God have you have you met him have you experienced him and the pastor

have you experienced him and the pastor rips up his sermon and said youall have

rips up his sermon and said youall have heard the gospel anybody wants to come

heard the gospel anybody wants to come up right now receive Jesus as the

up right now receive Jesus as the forgiver and leader and be baptized on

forgiver and leader and be baptized on the spot come on up 700 people came up

the spot come on up 700 people came up in two

in two Services when he was buried he died a

Services when he was buried he died a few years later when he was buried up in

few years later when he was buried up in Montana where he was from at his request

Montana where he was from at his request on his Tombstone it just says believe in

on his Tombstone it just says believe in Jesus now PE and thousands of people

Jesus now PE and thousands of people came to his funeral and you wonder well

came to his funeral and you wonder well why who was this guy well people didn't

why who was this guy well people didn't know him by Robert that was his given

know him by Robert that was his given name his he was known by his stage name

name his he was known by his stage name evil can

evil can evil so evil can evil the famous

evil so evil can evil the famous motorcycle Daredevil writer who is in

motorcycle Daredevil writer who is in the Guinness Book of World Records for

the Guinness Book of World Records for more broken bones than any human being

more broken bones than any human being evil can eval had God speak to him

evil can eval had God speak to him transform him we became friends I

transform him we became friends I remember he called me for the first time

remember he called me for the first time I answered my phone I said uh hello and

I answered my phone I said uh hello and the voice said uh is this Lee stroble I

the voice said uh is this Lee stroble I said yeah he said this is evil and I

said yeah he said this is evil and I thought Satan has got my phone number

thought Satan has got my phone number can he do that can Satan do this what

can he do that can Satan do this what the heck and he said no no evil can evil

the heck and he said no no evil can evil oh okay so we became friends and um God

oh okay so we became friends and um God radically changed that guy's life um and

radically changed that guy's life um and I go that's a miracle that's a miracle

I go that's a miracle that's a miracle when God reaches down and just grabs

when God reaches down and just grabs somebody like that like like Saul of

somebody like that like like Saul of Tarsus becomes Paul the

Tarsus becomes Paul the Apostle man I love hearing stuff like

Apostle man I love hearing stuff like that I do too it's encouraging isn't it

that I do too it's encouraging isn't it you know I know you asked earlier you

you know I know you asked earlier you know what what how you view the state of

know what what how you view the state of the world and yeah there's a lot of bad

the world and yeah there's a lot of bad stuff going on but golly God's still in

stuff going on but golly God's still in control he's still alive he's still

control he's still alive he's still doing stuff like this and when I hear

doing stuff like this and when I hear stories about his how he intervenes and

stories about his how he intervenes and uh through dreams through Visions

uh through dreams through Visions through near-death experiences through

through near-death experiences through deathbed Visions through direct

deathbed Visions through direct experiences all these things um it

experiences all these things um it brings me hope it it I don't base my

brings me hope it it I don't base my theology on it but it tends to bolster

theology on it but it tends to bolster my theology because it's consistent with

my theology because it's consistent with the teachings of the Bible you know

the teachings of the Bible you know we're talking

we're talking about these Miracles that that that

about these Miracles that that that you've interviewed people on and and and

you've interviewed people on and and and it sounds like some of it stems from

it sounds like some of it stems from prayer and so what I want to ask you is

prayer and so what I want to ask you is how do you how do you pray and who do

how do you how do you pray and who do you pray to do you pray to Jesus do you

you pray to do you pray to Jesus do you pray to God do you pray to the Holy

pray to God do you pray to the Holy Spirit do you pray to all

Spirit do you pray to all three um I I kind of follow what Jesus

three um I I kind of follow what Jesus did when he gave the Lord's Prayer as

did when he gave the Lord's Prayer as kind of a model and he prayed to the

kind of a model and he prayed to the father my Father Who Art in Heaven so I

father my Father Who Art in Heaven so I I tend to pray to the father I don't

I tend to pray to the father I don't think it's wrong to pray to Jesus I

think it's wrong to pray to Jesus I don't think it's wrong to pray to the

don't think it's wrong to pray to the Holy Spirit I think that's you could do

Holy Spirit I think that's you could do that um but I pray to the father um and

that um but I pray to the father um and um why do you do that I'm just curious

um why do you do that I'm just curious if you have if Jesus is the way to the

if you have if Jesus is the way to the father yeah yeah because I've always

father yeah yeah because I've always prayed to the father as well and then

prayed to the father as well and then I've started kind of switching

I've started kind of switching well and that's fine to pray to Jesus is

well and that's fine to pray to Jesus is fine to pray to the holy spirit is fine

fine to pray to the holy spirit is fine but um because that's how Jesus modeled

but um because that's how Jesus modeled it you know Jesus when he gave us the

it you know Jesus when he gave us the The Lord's Prayer said um Our Father Who

The Lord's Prayer said um Our Father Who Art in Heaven so I thought okay then

Art in Heaven so I thought okay then that's a good thing to model my own

that's a good thing to model my own prayer after if Jesus is praying to the

prayer after if Jesus is praying to the father then I'll pray to the father um

father then I'll pray to the father um but to pray I think to Jesus is fine

but to pray I think to Jesus is fine pray the Holy Spirit is fine

pray the Holy Spirit is fine um what what is a little dangerous is

um what what is a little dangerous is um um some people pray to Angels H um

um um some people pray to Angels H um and you know Paul was it Paul or Peter

and you know Paul was it Paul or Peter there's an incident in scripture where

there's an incident in scripture where one of the Apostles um starts to bow

one of the Apostles um starts to bow down to worship an Angel and the angel

down to worship an Angel and the angel said no no no I'm um I'm like you I'm

said no no no I'm um I'm like you I'm not you know you don't worship me and I

not you know you don't worship me and I think there's I think the danger of

think there's I think the danger of praying to an angel would be number one

praying to an angel would be number one he's not God number two there's a

he's not God number two there's a slippery slope that do we start

slippery slope that do we start worshiping angels and no I mean that's

worshiping angels and no I mean that's that's not appropriate um but I mean my

that's not appropriate um but I mean my my son actually wrote a great book on

my son actually wrote a great book on prayer my son's a theologian um he and

prayer my son's a theologian um he and John Co who's a well-known Theologian

John Co who's a well-known Theologian wrote a book called when prayer gets

wrote a book called when prayer gets real and um it's it's something cool

real and um it's it's something cool about your son writing a book on prayer

about your son writing a book on prayer I mean so proud of him and it's such a

I mean so proud of him and it's such a profound book um I I'd encourage anyone

profound book um I I'd encourage anyone who wants to know how do I pray with

who wants to know how do I pray with authenticity how do I pray with power

authenticity how do I pray with power and and so forth that's a really good

and and so forth that's a really good book um to read um when prayer gets real

book um to read um when prayer gets real by do you ask do you ask for things I do

by do you ask do you ask for things I do first first of all I I want to uh spend

first first of all I I want to uh spend a time in adoration and worship so I

a time in adoration and worship so I have a worship time in my prayer where I

have a worship time in my prayer where I worship God for who he is and what he's

worship God for who he is and what he's done in my life and others and so I I

done in my life and others and so I I spend time worshiping him um I I spend a

spend time worshiping him um I I spend a time of confession God I I know I I

time of confession God I I know I I shouldn't have done I did yesterday I I

shouldn't have done I did yesterday I I I cut that guy off and and uh he just

I cut that guy off and and uh he just wanted to talk to me and I was rude and

wanted to talk to me and I was rude and and um I'm sorry I help me to be more

and um I'm sorry I help me to be more attuned to other people sometimes that

attuned to other people sometimes that maybe sometimes I'm not and so I confess

maybe sometimes I'm not and so I confess my sins now they've already been

my sins now they've already been forgiven but sometimes when we're when

forgiven but sometimes when we're when we have a pattern of sin in our life

we have a pattern of sin in our life even though we're a Christian it kind of

even though we're a Christian it kind of creates a bit of static in our line in

creates a bit of static in our line in talking to God you know it's it's a

talking to God you know it's it's a little bit of a static um and you want

little bit of a static um and you want to clear that up so I think it's good to

to clear that up so I think it's good to confess to spend a time of confession

confess to spend a time of confession and to say um God I'm sorry for this and

and to say um God I'm sorry for this and this that I did yesterday I I I knew

this that I did yesterday I I I knew before I did it I shouldn't and I did it

before I did it I shouldn't and I did it anyway and I'm just I just want to say

anyway and I'm just I just want to say I'm sorry so I do a time of confession

I'm sorry so I do a time of confession then I do a time of

then I do a time of Thanksgiving um thank you God for I I

Thanksgiving um thank you God for I I prayed this just the other day I said

prayed this just the other day I said God I've been I've been I'm 70 almost 73

God I've been I've been I'm 70 almost 73 years old I've been driving since I was

years old I've been driving since I was 16 and I've never hurt anybody

16 and I've never hurt anybody driving thank you God for protecting me

driving thank you God for protecting me from that horrible experience it would

from that horrible experience it would be to being a traffic accident to hurt

be to being a traffic accident to hurt somebody and I've never had that and I

somebody and I've never had that and I just want to say thank you for

just want to say thank you for protecting me for all these years not

protecting me for all these years not just from being hurt myself but from

just from being hurt myself but from hurting somebody else so I want to thank

hurting somebody else so I want to thank him for what he's he provides for my

him for what he's he provides for my family for um um ways that he has um

family for um um ways that he has um guided me or or open my eyes to

guided me or or open my eyes to something I needed to see I just spend a

something I needed to see I just spend a time in Thanksgiving

time in Thanksgiving and then I spent a time in what called

and then I spent a time in what called supplication which is asking God God you

supplication which is asking God God you know I I I really I really need your

know I I I really I really need your help in this area of course he already

help in this area of course he already knows I do he's omnicient but the fact

knows I do he's omnicient but the fact that I come to him with it um and and

that I come to him with it um and and and am vulnerable and honest about the

and am vulnerable and honest about the things I need in my life um you know we

things I need in my life um you know we don't have the income to get through

don't have the income to get through next month and I know you're the great

next month and I know you're the great provider

provider and this happened a lot when I took I

and this happened a lot when I took I left journalism to go into the church

left journalism to go into the church world at a 60% pay cut and so we lived

world at a 60% pay cut and so we lived on nothing for many years and there were

on nothing for many years and there were many times when we would pray God we

many times when we would pray God we don't have the mortgage money this month

don't have the mortgage money this month and we need your help and he always came

and we need your help and he always came through one way or the other um but but

through one way or the other um but but just to be vulnerable and honest about

just to be vulnerable and honest about the things that we need in our life so

the things that we need in our life so that's a simple way to remember it's the

that's a simple way to remember it's the acrostic axe to adore God spend a Time

acrostic axe to adore God spend a Time In Worship to confess our sins to thank

In Worship to confess our sins to thank him and then supplication to ask for

him and then supplication to ask for those things that we need from him is it

those things that we need from him is it do you is it ceremonial or or or is it

do you is it ceremonial or or or is it just are you just

just are you just talking yeah I'm just talking so it

talking yeah I'm just talking so it could be when you're driving it could be

could be when you're driving it could be when you're walking around I have a time

when you're walking around I have a time of prayer that's it's little more uh

of prayer that's it's little more uh like built around that acts structure um

like built around that acts structure um what's acts the the Adoration confession

what's acts the the Adoration confession that kind of thing like I just described

that kind of thing like I just described so I I want to take time out for my day

so I I want to take time out for my day to do that but I'm constantly praying to

to do that but I'm constantly praying to God I mean when I'm driving when I'm you

God I mean when I'm driving when I'm you know um God I need your help and

know um God I need your help and sometimes we we spiritualize things you

sometimes we we spiritualize things you know like I was in downtown Houston and

know like I was in downtown Houston and I needed to find a parking place and I

I needed to find a parking place and I thought God I know this is ridiculous

thought God I know this is ridiculous but I got to I got to be in this meeting

but I got to I got to be in this meeting in 10 minutes and there's no parking

in 10 minutes and there's no parking anywhere would you just oh there's a

anywhere would you just oh there's a parking place and you know I mean I'm

parking place and you know I mean I'm pra just spiritualizing it but dog on it

pra just spiritualizing it but dog on it it happened so you know I think there's

it happened so you know I think there's a ongoing conversation we have with God

a ongoing conversation we have with God if

you when you ask for something or you need something do you have you ever

need something do you have you ever prayed as if it's already happened oh in

prayed as if it's already happened oh in anticipation of him already granting it

anticipation of him already granting it I know that's common in some Churches I

I know that's common in some Churches I don't generally do that um I thank him

don't generally do that um I thank him because I know whatever he does for me

because I know whatever he does for me is going to be for my best interest um

is going to be for my best interest um and so if if I pray for x and he gives

and so if if I pray for x and he gives me y um I think there's going to be a

me y um I think there's going to be a reason for it and so I would rather have

reason for it and so I would rather have y in the end than x so um I I know

y in the end than x so um I I know there's some in the Pentecostal realm

there's some in the Pentecostal realm Who Will Pray um as if God has already

Who Will Pray um as if God has already granted it um I don't think we have the

granted it um I don't think we have the power to manifest things that way but um

power to manifest things that way but um my Approach is just to be like a father

my Approach is just to be like a father with his child and I know when you're

with his child and I know when you're child you got a little kid when he's

child you got a little kid when he's older he's going to come to you and say

older he's going to come to you and say Dad can you buy me a

Dad can you buy me a Corvette and you're going to say I love

Corvette and you're going to say I love you son but there's no way I'm going to

you son but there's no way I'm going to buy you a Corvette but you need to

buy you a Corvette but you need to understand why it's because I love you

understand why it's because I love you and sometimes I come to God and I say

and sometimes I come to God and I say God I really need this and he he says no

God I really need this and he he says no I mean there's an old saying the biggest

I mean there's an old saying the biggest curse is getting everything you pray

curse is getting everything you pray for really yeah because if you pray you

for really yeah because if you pray you think of the things through your life

think of the things through your life that you've prayed for and you think

that you've prayed for and you think thank God he didn't grant that prayer

thank God he didn't grant that prayer because it would have been a disaster

because it would have been a disaster you know we pray for all kinds of stuff

you know we pray for all kinds of stuff well thank goodness he knows best that's

well thank goodness he knows best that's a good point I've heard of and sometimes

a good point I've heard of and sometimes when we don't get what we want and then

when we don't get what we want and then we find out five years later oh man I'm

we find out five years later oh man I'm so much better off now than I would have

so much better off now than I would have been if if God so God answers every

been if if God so God answers every prayer with either a yes or a no or a

prayer with either a yes or a no or a wait um but sometimes a no is a blessing

wait um but sometimes a no is a blessing man you know

man you know I that's an interesting perspective that

I that's an interesting perspective that I've not thought of because I I started

I've not thought of because I I started praying yeah as if things have already

praying yeah as if things have already happened yeah and I I um have you ever

happened yeah and I I um have you ever heard of Greg Braden by chance no listen

heard of Greg Braden by chance no listen to Greg I I I went on a Greg Braden kick

to Greg I I I went on a Greg Braden kick for a while but okay but um and through

for a while but okay but um and through some of my other interviews and and I've

some of my other interviews and and I've talked about man manifestation and and

talked about man manifestation and and things like that and I always get a ton

things like that and I always get a ton of hate when I when I talk about that

of hate when I when I talk about that but you know but and I gave a specific

but you know but and I gave a specific example um by the time this releases it

example um by the time this releases it will have been a couple months ago but I

will have been a couple months ago but I talked about this time that uh me and my

talked about this time that uh me and my wife got engaged under the northern

wife got engaged under the northern lights and and I think I I think I

lights and and I think I I think I prayed that into existence because it

prayed that into existence because it happened in in Alaska in August which is

happened in in Alaska in August which is almost impossible

almost impossible but it's actually the interview that's

but it's actually the interview that's running right now and uh the name of the

running right now and uh the name of the woman that I interviewed is Angela Ford

woman that I interviewed is Angela Ford and I talk about this got a ton of hate

and I talk about this got a ton of hate about it and

about it and um and

um you know sometimes in the morning I'll I'll get up and I will just

I'll I'll get up and I will just flip to any random page in the Bible

flip to any random page in the Bible just to

just to see what's I like to randomize it

see what's I like to randomize it because I feel like I feel like he's

because I feel like I feel like he's going to tell me something rather than

going to tell me something rather than if I just read it straight through and

if I just read it straight through and um open it

um open it up yesterday morning Sunday morning and

up yesterday morning Sunday morning and um it was a

um it was a passage I don't have any Scripture

passage I don't have any Scripture memorized like I said I'm new at this

memorized like I said I'm new at this but um in fact you know what I texted it

but um in fact you know what I texted it to somebody I'm going to run down and

to somebody I'm going to run down and grab my phone I'll be right back cuz I

grab my phone I'll be right back cuz I want to read this to you CU I would love

want to read this to you CU I would love to hear your perspective yeah that was a

to hear your perspective yeah that was a great line I was saying I used to be

great line I was saying I used to be able to run downstairs like that there

able to run downstairs like that there there's a there's a great quote that

there's a there's a great quote that said um uh how to fall asleep in a chair

said um uh how to fall asleep in a chair number one be old number two sit in a

number one be old number two sit in a chair I got in the airplane yesterday I

chair I got in the airplane yesterday I was asleep before takeoff and and leie

was asleep before takeoff and and leie said how do you do that and I said I'm

said how do you do that and I said I'm old and I sit in a chair that's all I

old and I sit in a chair that's all I need man I wish I could pull that off oh

need man I wish I could pull that off oh so here it is yeah here's the

so here it is yeah here's the scripture it's Mark

scripture it's Mark 11:24 therefore I tell you whatever you

11:24 therefore I tell you whatever you ask in prayer believe that you have

ask in prayer believe that you have received it and it will be yours yeah

received it and it will be yours yeah so to

so to me that kind of goes along with what

me that kind of goes along with what I was just saying 444 right now but um

I was just saying 444 right now but um but uh Ian how do you how do you take

but uh Ian how do you how do you take that well I have to read it in context

that well I have to read it in context with other other verses and other

with other other verses and other teachings of Jesus about prayer I think

teachings of Jesus about prayer I think um to put it into context but there's

um to put it into context but there's there's nothing wrong with a a sense of

there's nothing wrong with a a sense of anticipation and saying God you know I I

anticipation and saying God you know I I need this in my life and I know you love

need this in my life and I know you love me and I know it's this is um something

me and I know it's this is um something that you want me to have and so I'm I'm

that you want me to have and so I'm I'm GNA I'm gon to receive it as if you've

GNA I'm gon to receive it as if you've already given it I guess there's nothing

already given it I guess there's nothing wrong with that but it's not the posture

wrong with that but it's not the posture I generally take okay okay yeah I

I generally take okay okay yeah I don't I just love hearing how people do

don't I just love hearing how people do it you know it there's a variety and you

it you know it there's a variety and you know it's interesting the word

know it's interesting the word denomination comes from the same root as

denomination comes from the same root as the word denominator and yeah there's

the word denominator and yeah there's hund and some odd denominations in

hund and some odd denominations in Christianity we all have a common

Christianity we all have a common denominator and that is the gospel

denominator and that is the gospel that's the core teachings of Jesus H and

that's the core teachings of Jesus H and and then we agree to disagree on some

and then we agree to disagree on some peripheral issues how to how to pray how

peripheral issues how to how to pray how to how to do this do you tithe do you

to how to do this do you tithe do you not and you know what it's okay that um

not and you know what it's okay that um we have some differences among us as

we have some differences among us as long as we hold tight to the core so

long as we hold tight to the core so denominator common denominator we have a

denominator common denominator we have a common denominator all these

common denominator all these denominations but we have some different

denominations but we have some different practices and we have some different

practices and we have some different emphases and um every church is not the

emphases and um every church is not the same um but as long as there are Iden

same um but as long as there are Iden nomination as long as they agree that

nomination as long as they agree that Jesus is who he claimed to be the unique

Jesus is who he claimed to be the unique Son of God who proved by returning from

Son of God who proved by returning from the dead uh and so forth and certain

the dead uh and so forth and certain non-negotiables then it's okay that we

non-negotiables then it's okay that we view prayer a little differently from

view prayer a little differently from one Church to another that's okay when

one Church to another that's okay when we get to heaven we can raise our hand

we get to heaven we can raise our hand and say Jesus would you just clarify

and say Jesus would you just clarify this once and for all would you just you

this once and for all would you just you know lay this out in a way we can

know lay this out in a way we can understand

understand it I'm going to have my hand in the air

it I'm going to have my hand in the air Jesus how does this Calvinism and

Jesus how does this Calvinism and Armenian thing fit together I'm just

Armenian thing fit together I'm just curious about that I can't wait to hear

curious about that I can't wait to hear what he says me neither me

what he says me neither me neither well we we're wrapping up the

neither well we we're wrapping up the interview here I want to um got to I

interview here I want to um got to I want to kind of close it out with um why

want to kind of close it out with um why do they call Jesus the way the truth and

do they call Jesus the way the truth and the light they call him that because

the light they call him that because that was the way he described himself I

that was the way he described himself I am he said interestingly he would take

am he said interestingly he would take the words I am and apply them to himself

the words I am and apply them to himself and you think back in the Old Testament

and you think back in the Old Testament when Moses

when Moses encountered God in the form of a burning

encountered God in the form of a burning bush and asked for his name God

bush and asked for his name God identified himself as I am and so we

identified himself as I am and so we have Jesus using these I am statements I

have Jesus using these I am statements I think seven of them and one of those I

think seven of them and one of those I am statements is I am the way the truth

am statements is I am the way the truth and the life and then the important part

and the life and then the important part comes next no one comes to the father

comes next no one comes to the father except through me so in other words it's

except through me so in other words it's only through the atoning death of Jesus

only through the atoning death of Jesus in the cross is only through his

in the cross is only through his resurrection that anybody anywhere has

resurrection that anybody anywhere has any hope of making it out of this thing

any hope of making it out of this thing and getting to Heaven um that's not to

and getting to Heaven um that's not to say there might be some people in the

say there might be some people in the world who don't hear the name of Jesus

world who don't hear the name of Jesus but who reach out to the one true God

but who reach out to the one true God and um in some way remarkably saved um

and um in some way remarkably saved um that could happen but they're not saved

that could happen but they're not saved apart from Jesus it is because of what

apart from Jesus it is because of what he did and you know I know this is

he did and you know I know this is Christmas season and so forth and um

Christmas season and so forth and um it's just a reminder of God's love for

it's just a reminder of God's love for for us that he made us in His image um

for us that he made us in His image um loves us so much that he sent his son

loves us so much that he sent his son into the world to suffer a horrible

into the world to suffer a horrible death on the cross I mean I've talked to

death on the cross I mean I've talked to Medical Doctors about what happens to

Medical Doctors about what happens to you during crucifixion it is a horrific

you during crucifixion it is a horrific horrific death so bad that the Romans

horrific death so bad that the Romans would not even crucify their own

would not even crucify their own citizens they Exempted them because it

citizens they Exempted them because it was too horrific and yet Jesus the Bible

was too horrific and yet Jesus the Bible says in Philippians in the first

says in Philippians in the first Christmas Carol that he

Christmas Carol that he gave up the perks of

gave up the perks of heaven and he came into this

heaven and he came into this world and he

world and he lived a life of a servant even to the

lived a life of a servant even to the point of going to the Cross so he

point of going to the Cross so he willingly gave up the perks of Heaven

willingly gave up the perks of Heaven entered into this world on Christmas and

entered into this world on Christmas and then ultimately on Easter uh he is

then ultimately on Easter uh he is resurrected from the dead after having

resurrected from the dead after having paid for our sins on the cross um I mean

paid for our sins on the cross um I mean that he is the way the truth and the

that he is the way the truth and the life there is no other path uh we're all

life there is no other path uh we're all Sinners the only way we can be forgiven

Sinners the only way we can be forgiven is through receiving the payment he made

is through receiving the payment he made on our behalf when he died as our

on our behalf when he died as our substitute to pay for the sins that

substitute to pay for the sins that we've committed and we receed that we

we've committed and we receed that we become a child of God

become a child of God forever thank you for sharing that my

forever thank you for sharing that my pleasure welle we um we kicked this off

pleasure welle we um we kicked this off with a prayer yeah I think we should end

with a prayer yeah I think we should end it with a prayer that'd be awesome yeah

it with a prayer that'd be awesome yeah yeah can I start absolutely Lord thanks

yeah can I start absolutely Lord thanks for this opportunity to talk about you

for this opportunity to talk about you to talk about the hope that you provide

to talk about the hope that you provide through your son Jesus Christ the fact

through your son Jesus Christ the fact that there is redemption there is

that there is redemption there is eternal life there are um um there is

eternal life there are um um there is forgiveness and it is only through the

forgiveness and it is only through the provision that he made on the

provision that he made on the cross and when we receive that we become

cross and when we receive that we become your child forever so we thank you for

your child forever so we thank you for that we thank you for your great love

that we thank you for your great love for your provision for us you could have

for your provision for us you could have walked the other way you could have you

walked the other way you could have you could have just snapped your fingers and

could have just snapped your fingers and turn this whole planet into a cinder but

turn this whole planet into a cinder but you love us you want to spend eternity

you love us you want to spend eternity with us and I do pray that those who are

with us and I do pray that those who are watching who don't know you personally

watching who don't know you personally will make today the day that they say I

will make today the day that they say I believe that Jesus

believe that Jesus is the unique Son of God he proved it by

is the unique Son of God he proved it by returning from the dead I am a sinner I

returning from the dead I am a sinner I fallen short of how God wants me to live

fallen short of how God wants me to live I confess that I want to turn from that

I confess that I want to turn from that and an attitude of repentance and faith

and an attitude of repentance and faith I want to receive this free gift of

I want to receive this free gift of forgiveness and eternal life that Jesus

forgiveness and eternal life that Jesus purchased for me on the cross I pray

purchased for me on the cross I pray many people will make today the day that

many people will make today the day that they take that step and that we can then

they take that step and that we can then reconvene someday in heaven uh where we

reconvene someday in heaven uh where we won't be constrained by time and we can

won't be constrained by time and we can uh just extol your grace and your love

uh just extol your grace and your love and tell story after story about how you

and tell story after story about how you have made yourself and your ways known

have made yourself and your ways known in this world in um magnificent and

in this world in um magnificent and miraculous ways we pray all this in

miraculous ways we pray all this in Jesus name and I'd just like to add that

Jesus name and I'd just like to add that um you know we are we are seeing this

um you know we are we are seeing this massive wave of

massive wave of people coming to you Lord and to Jesus

people coming to you Lord and to Jesus and the Holy Spirit and and

and the Holy Spirit and and um we just pray that that continues to

um we just pray that that continues to happen it's it's it is awesome to see

happen it's it's it is awesome to see that happening and and

that happening and and and we just hope that

and we just hope that you use this this conversation that I

you use this this conversation that I just had with Lee to to help be a part

just had with Lee to to help be a part of that and to bring more people to you

of that and to bring more people to you and last but not least happy birthday

and last but not least happy birthday Jesus and Merry Christmas yeah amen amen

Jesus and Merry Christmas yeah amen amen Le thanks Sean really enjoyed it a lot a

Le thanks Sean really enjoyed it a lot a lot of fun it was an honor I hope to see

lot of fun it was an honor I hope to see you again I hope so yeah I had a lot of

you again I hope so yeah I had a lot of fun and I

fun and I learned I learned a tremendous amount of

learned I learned a tremendous amount of just everything that you're talking

just everything that you're talking about so thank you thank you so much for

about so thank you thank you so much for being here and Merry Christmas thank you

being here and Merry Christmas thank you you too God bless you my friend

[Music] no matter where you're watching sha Ryan

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YouTube Transcript:Lee Strobel - Who is Jesus Christ the Son of God? | SRS #152

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YouTube Transcript:
Lee Strobel - Who is Jesus Christ the Son of God? | SRS #152