This content is a deep dive into the principles of entrepreneurship, investing, and personal success, drawing heavily on the experiences and philosophies of Kevin Oly (Mr. Wonderful). It emphasizes the importance of focus, discipline, calculated risk-taking, and understanding the distinction between essential "signal" and distracting "noise" in all aspects of life.
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That is the stupidest thing you can ever do.
do.
What is the most important thing for
someone who's just trying to grow their money?
money?
So, I learned this from my mother and I
actually built a whole company around
Damn. I mean, what she did, the
performance was extraordinary. And with
that, she put my brother and I through
college. She took care of her family
when they fell on hard times. When I saw
the results, I said, "That's it. That's
how I'm going to invest for the rest of
my life."
So, talk me through this. I want as much
detail as possible.
Okay, let's start with this.
Kevin Oly aka Mr. Wonderful, is the
self-made millionaire and investor
who's built and sold companies for
billions. There's a lot of people don't
like me for my blindness. I don't care
because there's people that don't think
ahead and find themselves mired in debt
but then pissing away money spending $28
for lunch. I mean that's just stupid.
What about a house?
The mistake that people make is they buy
too much house. Never let the mortgage
and the cost of maintaining the house be
more than 1/3 of your income.
Now how much does the person that you
fall in love with have an impact?
You kidding? It's everything. And I did
some research and most marriages can
survive infidelity. They can't survive
financial stress. But if everybody
that's listening does this one thing,
you will have over a million and a half dollars.
dollars.
Kevin, can anybody be an entrepreneur?
No. Only a third of people can become
successful entrepreneurs because there's
a couple of things that you must achieve
to be successful. First, [Music]
[Music]
Kevin, I'm going to ask you to do
something which is quite difficult
because I'd find it quite hard if
someone asked me to do this. But before
we get into the detail, can you give me
a 30,000 foot view on your
entrepreneurship and investing career?
Just the just the three bullet points
that are most pertinent before we dig
into those specifics.
Every entrepreneur I've ever talked to
um that finds himself where I am today
has has a defining moment where they are
pushed into this path. It's it's
something they can remember and they
remember it in perpetuity. And I'll
remember my moment getting fired in an
ice cream store. That simple. First day
on the job, asked to serve and scoop ice
cream. And um I did that all day. But
when people sample ice cream, they get a
taster and they take their gum out and
they throw it on the floor. Somebody's
got to scrape the gum off the floor at
the end of the day. I only took that job
because I was very interested in a girl
who's working in the shoe store and I figured
figured
I could, you know, hang out with her
afterwards. And uh I saw her waiting for
me and the woman who owned the store
said, "You've got a scrape to come off
the floor." And I didn't want her to see
me on my knees with a scraper. Bad for
my brand. I was in high school. And uh
she said, "No, no, you have to do it."
And I said, "You know, you hired me as a
scooper, not a scraper." She said, "Um,
how about you're fired?" And I didn't
know what that meant. And it was the
defining moment for me because I
realized there's two kinds of people in
the world. There's people that own the
store and there's people that scrape the
[ __ ] off the floor and you have to
decide who you are. And I'm not saying
being an employee is a bad thing. Not at
all. But for me, um, it it hit me. It
just hit me.
Kevin, there's a present for you. We
give a present to all of our guests. Really?
Really?
Underneath that black
Can I open it?
You can open it.
I just take this off.
Oh, look at that.
You've heard the story.
That is exactly how it looked except it
was black gum and that was exactly the
tile. It was just like that Mexican
tile. That's really freaking me out.
So you were asked to scrape gum off a
Mexican tile
just like that. And in order to do that,
you got to get down on your knees and do
it. And um I just couldn't do it. And I
and I and then you know the rest of the
story. I eventually could afford to
bulldoze the whole mall if I went to.
when we went back to meet her and thank
her for her pushing you off the
treadmill into that direction and she
was gone and there was a bodega there instead.
instead.
You said there that you realize that
there's kind of two people in life.
There's the entrepreneurs, the person
that owns the ice cream parlor and
there's the person that scrapes it off
the floor. Yeah.
Yeah.
That provoked a question in me which is
do you think anybody can own the ice
cream parlor? I do you think anybody can
be an entrepreneur?
No. I've tried to teach it. Um and I
mentor out it all the time to the CEOs
that I work with. Uh there are some
attributes of people that can do this. A
certain element of risk tolerance, uh a
certain element of focus.
And then the other element which I've
really started to believe in of late is
karma, luck. You need to be lucky. You
need It's like Napoleon was once asked,
"Who are your favorite generals?" and he
said, "My favorite generals are lucky
generals. My lucky generals." And I'm
starting to think that in life, um,
particular entrepreneurship, you look at
the difference, the path of success and
failure, and I nobody's exposed to it
more than I am in terms of how many
investments I may have made over the decades.
I think if you want a percentage, you
know, I teach these cohorts at Harvard.
I'm an executive fellow there. I'm very
proud of that work.
You get a class of 120 people in a room,
twothirds of them want to become
consultants. That's why they're there.
And lead a life of mediocrity and never
make a decision of consequence in their
lives. And after 24 months, they are
tainted with that disease forever.
They'll always be good consultants, but
they will never achieve greatness in any
way. In life, only a third of people can
become successful entrepreneurs. That's
it. And the rest can be very successful
employees. And there's nothing wrong
with that. You can have a fantastic
life. You won't be shackled to the, you
know, the the ups and downs of
entrepreneurship, the challenge of it,
how hard it is, but you'll never be
free. And that's the debate. That's it
right there. Do you want personal
freedom? It's the only path. That's it.
It's the only path.
It is the only path. I mean, you can't I
I've always said it's not about the
pursuit of money. It's not about the
pursuit of greed. You will fail if you
do that. It's it's the undying love of freedom.
freedom.
So that one-third of people that you say
will be successful, they'll pursue their
their dreams, they'll build a business,
whatever it might be. Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you think it's possible for us in
this conversation to increase the
probability of their success? You said
you don't think you can you can make
someone an entrepreneur,
but is there things you can do to
increase their probability of success?
Yes, there are a couple of things that
you must achieve to be successful. And
let me explain what they would be. And
this is not some academic study. This is
real data from real situations of real
CEOs I've worked with and learned from
because I used to work for guys like
Steve Jobs and others in my career.
Let me um let me give you one that I
think is very important. We'll start
with this one. I used to work for Steve
Jobs in the early 90s making all of his
educational software. I mean it was just
Oh, there they are. My goodness, you
guys do good research. Those are the
kind of things that we did for him, you know.
know.
Yeah. Yeah. All of that. It's hard to
find. Those are senior realms. But, you
know, in developing that software,
we used to go quarterly. Um Heidi Rosen
was there in the room. She's still a a
very famous venture capitalist.
And I would say, Steve, you know,
we got to do some market research on
Oregon Trail. I mean, it's a huge title.
It's in 110,000 school buildings. We got
to do an update. It's going to cost you
12 15 million bucks. We want to find out
what the students want. We want to find
out what the teachers want. Want to find
out what the parents want. Steve would
say, by the way, not a nice guy. Not a
nice guy. He would say to a room full of
people, Kevin, I don't give a [ __ ] what
the students want or the parents think
or anybody thinks. It's what I want.
They don't know what they want till I
tell them what they want.
And I said, "Steve, you sound like such
an [ __ ] You have no idea what that
sounds like." He says, "No, no, that's
how it is, Kevin. Now, are you making
money with me? Are we Are you Am I your
fastest growing OEM? Have we not been
wildly successful and continue to be?" I
said, "Yes, Steve, that's true." He
said, "Then [ __ ] shut up and do what
I say."
That's how he would talk to you. 100%.
100%.
And here's what I learned.
Look how wildly successful he was. But
here's why.
There's a concept that he understood
that very few people focused on back
then in the early 90s of signal to noise ratio.
ratio.
What was so brilliant about Jobs
that I tell every CEO now and I don't
care if you're an S&P 500 CEO or you're
just starting a business.
His vision of Signal was the top three
to five things you have to get done in
the next 18 hours. Not your vision for
the business next week or next month or
next year. Just the next 18 hours you're
awake. You're going to get those three
things or those five things done that
you have deemed critical for your
mission. They must get done today.
Anything that stops you from doing that
is the noise.
So this signal to noise ratio to be
successful for Steve Jobs was 8020. 80
signal, 20 noise. And I knew that to be
true with him because he would email me
at 2:30 in the morning expect me to get
back to him because back then we didn't
have texts. It was all email.
He was right. He was right. And the only
other person that I've seen that has a
higher ratio than that
is Elon Musk. He has no noise. He does
not deal with noise. He is 100% signal.
24 seconds of, you know, every cycle. I
mean, the guy is just 60 seconds of
every minute, 60 minutes of every hour.
The 18 hours he's awake, it's all
signal. And look what he's achieved.
Now, it's very awkward for him socially.
Because noise is dealing with your
family sometimes or noise is saying hi
to a friend or noise is is is listening
to some doom scrolling on you know some
social media app that just takes your
mind or maybe playing your guitar but
very few people on earth and if you go
back in history you're going to find out
that the geniuses of their time we're
close to 100% signal
and so I can really sort of summarize
this for my audience signal is the most
urgent thing you should be focused on
right now and noise is bas basically everything.
everything.
No. The goals you set for that the the
weight the that you were awake if you're
going to be awake 18 hours. Yeah.
Yeah.
And you've determined that there's three
things you have to get done. You're
going to get those done. No matter what
it takes, you're going to get those
done. And you're not going to let
anything distract you from those three
to five things. If you're a CEO and you
achieve that and you can get those done
with 80% of your time based on that,
you're extraordinarily successful. You
are absolutely and you're Steve Jobs or
you're an Elon Musk or you're somebody
if you if you even talk to Bezos I don't
know him personally but I've heard in
many interviews like I knew you know
I've I've met Elon just a few times I
spent a lot of time with Jobs but they
say the same thing Bezos will not make a
decision after 1:00 in the afternoon
because he felt that the noise was too
high the signal for him was in the
morning hours it this is a crucial
aspect of success
that that I now understand to be the
ability of of of it defines an
entrepreneur. A man or woman that
understands a signal noise ratio that
focuses on that, they'll be successful.
The ones that can't that get down to a
50/50 signal noise, they'll fail. It's
that simple. And it's a very simple concept.
concept.
You know, you made one of your things
today this interview. You're going to
get it done. You're going to all these
people around and everything else. This
is one of the three to five things
you're going to get done. I have five
things today. I'm going to get them
done. I'll do the same thing tomorrow
and the day after that. And you have to
decide how much signal you need to get
those three to five things done. And for
jobs it was 80%.
What's the opposite of that? Sometimes
looking at the opposite helps us to
understand something. So the opposite of
having you know
I hire managers and CEOs that have a
balance in life between the discipline
the binary aspect of business which is I
make money I lose money and the chaos of
the arts or some other pursuit dance
painting photography collecting crystals
whatever it is that that they that they
have that balance you you need you need
the ying and yang in your mind to make
correct decisions. It doesn't mean it
takes you off the signal. The signal is
you got to get stuff done. But how do
you live your life? And so I spend a
fair amount of my time practicing my
guitar or working with my photography or
my my watch, you know, up tonight, very
late tonight, I will meet a master watch
maker and we will deal with the design
of a new piece unique he's going to make
for me and I'm going to love that
moment. That's going to be something
completely different to what I did all
day long. And we'll start our journey
together over the next two years to make
this piece unique. And that's something
that just takes me away from all the
[ __ ] I'm going to be dealing with today.
And I also tell successful entrepreneurs
in the same day you will get a and this
happened to me today. It happens every
day. You're going to get a call from
some aspect of of your what you you call
it your empire, whatever you want where
your this company's going bankrupt. It's
just going to go bankrupt and you're
going to lose
I don't know 10 million bucks on that deal.
deal.
And that's a piece of information you're
dealing with. Half an hour later, this
actually happened to me today.
One of my companies going public. It's a
450x for me.
The stock will get unlocked sometime in
the fall. But
how can how do you how do you fit that
together? Utter catastrophe,
destruction, woe, loss, utter euphoria.
half an hour later. That's
that's what my life is like.
That's entrepreneurship obviously on a
different scale for most founders.
Well, the founders deal with the same
thing. They get disastrous news. They
lose an account like a Costco or
something if it's consumer goods or
service and they get something else. The
the the eb and flow is is the management
of expectations and your ability
emotionally to navigate those ups and
downs is part of what entrepreneurship
is. But it goes back to the signal. It
can't take you off the signal. This is
what Steve taught me. Yes, it's great
news. Yes, it's bad news. But focus on
the signal, O Liy. Focus on the signal.
That's it.
Where does this analogy come from of
signal and noise?
It was his genius of of of making it so
simple. What are the three things you
got to get done today? What are they?
What are they?
How do you know what they are?
They will make themselves apparent. They
will definitely make themselves
apparent. They will make themselves
apparent and you will realize I have to
deal with that. You may have them set up
from the day before. I actually still
use sticky notes on my mirror. Got to
get these three things done and or five
whatever it is. But then something else
will hit. That's the skill of
understanding is that noise hitting me
or is that signal? There is the essence
of the great entrepreneur, the great
manager, the great leader. Is that
signal or is that noise? What is it?
That's what you're looking for. You're
hiring somebody that can actually
distinguish signal and noise because it
could be noise. It could be irrelevant.
You have to determine only you makes
that decision. That's the key right
there. This is what I teach
entrepreneurs and engineers and
this is the most important thing. It's
that judgment of prioritization but then
the sort of force of execution to get it done.
done.
Can you interpret signal and noise and
can you keep the noise away from from
the things you got to get done? That's
one. The other which is something that
I've learned over the last 5 years
and this uh you might find this
interesting but most of my particularly
the naent startups and you're you're
involved in the same format I am. You're
dragon stand in England. I'm a shark
tank in the US.
I you know you put up 500,000 or a
million bucks into somebody's business
eight out of 10 is going to fail maybe
six out of 10 depend you just don't know
and I love it when people tell me oh I I
know when I make an investment it's
going to work
so full of [ __ ] they have I'm talking
about startups they have no idea what's
going to work and you won't know for 5
to seven years which is why you need
divers diversification in the portfolio. But
But
I would go as far to say now, you know,
when I meet um venture capital firms and
young analysts that work there and they
think they're so damn smart. They've
never operated a business, they know
nothing. They have no idea what they're
doing. They're going to hope that one or
two of their portfolio uh is going to
work out in seven years and pay for all
the other mistakes. But the
serendipitous nature of success in
entrepreneurship is brutal. It is. So
that does that mean though that it's I
guess I was going to say does that not
mean that it's highly luck? Investing is
highly like entrepreneurship must be
well I said karma you know I call it
karma but you need executional skills
but here's another skill that I think we
should talk about um
when you look at at least my experience
over decades of making these
uh naent these early stage investments
these around investments remarkably and
I've done them in all 11 sectors of the
the economy the majority of the
successes five to seven years later are
companies run by women. Why is that? Why
is that?
And so they don't know each other.
They're in different sectors. They never
meet each other. Why is that? And I have
come to the conclusion um
two things. They set goals that they can
achieve so that in the early stage of
their businesses, they put growth rate
targets like 15 16% versus men at 30%.
Very often men hit their targets 65% of
the time. at least my portfolio and
women 90 [ __ ] plus percent of the time
and that keeps the the the team very
sticky. They want to be part of a so
they don't have a lot of attrition when
they're small. They don't lose the head
of financing and marketing that that
works but they have another attribute
and this was pointed out to me by one of
my female CEOs a few years ago to me.
She said, you know, Kevin, you talk too
much. You talk too much. Um you talk
two/3s, you listen one third. Why don't
you try reversing the ratio?
She said that to you.
Yeah. Yeah. [Laughter]
[Laughter]
I'm very thankful actually because I
tried it and um she's right. If you
don't talk and you listen, you become
far more effective as a manager or an
investor in my case by getting
information that you weren't going to
get by talking. And so if you go into a room,
room,
I just did this a few minutes ago before
I came here. I'm involved in a
litigation and we decided to attempt
settlement talks which is why I was a
few minutes late and um
you know we knew we were going in there
to settle and it it's long protruded you
know long it's a long long long
uh litigation
and I remembered her as we sat at the
table like this there were other people
in the room but the two uh you know were
across from each other. I just looked at
him. I understand
for a long time,
a long time. And it gets uncomfortable
you know, just looking.
maybe after 90 seconds, he blurted out
something he shouldn't have said.
And I knew exactly what the price was
right there.
That was the end of it.
You learned that as a podcaster.
You learned that there's actually
something going on in the silence.
There is something going on in silence.
And it's it's it's the number that he
was going to settle at.
He showed his hand.
So, we saved ourselves two hours. You
know, it's a it's an attribute that many
people can't do because they can't stand
the social uncomfort of it. I have no
problem with it. I could sit here and
look at you for 10 minutes. it wouldn't
matter to me. And I've actually found it
to be a very useful piece of
information. It's not just a
negotiating, but to listen to employees,
listen to investors, listen to
financeers, listen to alternative ideas
to yours
and become more powerful from it.
You're in the very business of people
selling to you and pitching to you. We
both sit on a similar show where people
come in and pitch to us. You're seeing
at times 10 to 12 pitches a day. So
you've developed this muscle over the
last couple of decades now almost this
instinctive spidey sense of when an
entrepreneur will be successful at least
in the context of securing investment.
What have you come to learn about the
the attributes of the ones that are
successful? Is there is there anything
one can take from that
in the moment when that entrepreneur
comes out onto the carpet in the context
of Shark Tank or Dragon's Den even
they need the setup shot of the product
with the entrepreneur and they have a in
our case a steady cam or a jib that
comes down and shoots it. So the the
stage director,
Eric, uh is his name. I've worked with
him for years. Says to the entrepreneurs
I've never met, usually it's a team or
it's a family or it's whatever. Three or
four, two people, whatever. Hold.
Hold. Don't speak. Hold. Hold. Don't
mind the camera coming into your face.
Hold. Hold.
Maybe for two minutes.
And I'm right there in front of them.
I'm 12 feet from them. And I just look
at them. Not smiling, not blinking, not
frowning, just looking at them.
And before they say a single word, I
know if they're winners or losers. Just
like that. And why is that? Why is that?
When? And I'm right probably 99% of the
time. Maybe I get it wrong one out of a
hundred. I doubt it though.
You walk in a room, even though you've
practiced, you know, you in the context
of of Shark Tank, 20 plus cameras, a
billion plus dollars in in the five
chairs there. You've been practicing for
months your pitch, but it wasn't the
real deal. Here you are, cameras are
rolling, tape is running, you know,
you've only got so many minutes.
This is your moment. And you're on
national television. 100 plus million
people will see you in syndication. It's
all in your mind. It's all in your mind.
It's going through your head.
Can you project
who you are with your eyes and the way
you're standing? Can you project your
confidence? Are you looking at the
ground? Are you looking away from me
because you can't stand me looking at
you directly without saying anything to
you? Or do you push back? Or did you
say, "I'm gonna I'm gonna stake my aura.
I'm gonna stake my ground here. I'm
gonna show you I'm ready."
You see what I'm getting at? Yeah.
Yeah.
And I can feel it. I can see that
they're ready to do battle. They're
ready to answer. They're ready to
present. They're ready. Ready. Ready.
Ready. Or they're not. And I've taken
that out of the Shark Tank. I see that
every day in life. I see it. So you have
to learn how to project yourself in
front of your peers or who's who you
want to you want to lead or teach or if
you're a general or a preacher
that is maybe
an innate something you're born with or
maybe you can learn that I don't know I
don't care but if you don't have it
you're going to fail and you're just
that's before a word is spoken
before the first word is spoken. And so
then what has to happen?
Then Eric says, "Go. You're on." And
everybody's just sitting there looking
at you.
Can you articulate your idea in 90
seconds or less? Can you whatever props
you have or whatever you're going to
The ones that had that aura generally
get there. 30 seconds later, I get it. I
get what they're here for. I understand
their product. Okay, that's good.
Unfortunately, great ideas are a dime a
dozen. I mean, there's millions of them.
The next phase begins. This is after 90
seconds. Can you explain why you're the
right person to execute on this idea and
create a business from it? Because you
know something about this space? You
worked for a competitor. You've tried
three times before and failed. You
figured out what you did wrong. What is
it about you or your team that can take this
this
idea and make it happen? Now, when you
get those two things together, you can
feel the aura of the room. The isotope
is sizzling because you've derisked a
great idea. You got an operator in and
they But then the third thing, this is
the killer. This is the killer. I've
seen it so many times in real life and
Shark Tanks real life it is. it.
You got to know your numbers. How big is
the market? How fast is it growing?
What's the gross margin? I mean, I've
said this a million times to people. I
teach this every day. How many
competitors are there? When are you
going to break even? What month? If you
get the first two right and you don't
know your numbers, you deserve to burn
in hell. And I'll put you there myself.
I mean, you wasted an opportunity for an
entrepreneur that did know their numbers
that could have been in that spot that I
could have invested in. You don't know
your numbers. I take you out behind the
barn and shoot you. You should have
brought somebody that understands the
language of business because those three
together are the definition of
leadership right there.
I've never heard someone talk about aura
in entrepreneurship quite like that. And
I was I was just trying to for the
people listening that are either trying
to figure out if they have an aura or to
grow that aura. What does it what does
it look and feel like? Is it physically?
Is it shoulders back? Is it you said
it's eye contact? Or is it
indescribable? And do you think you
could take someone who doesn't have that
aura in business and teach them it? Does
business give you that aura?
I think you can teach it. I certainly
try and teach it to my children. Um I
And the best way to do it is to look at
yourself in the mirror sometime. You
know, just what do you look like to
yourself? You know, if you're going to
go make a presentation to take down a
million-doll line of credit or
something, you want to dress the part,
obviously, but you're going to walk in a
room with, you know, a loan officer and
maybe an assistant, maybe one other,
depending on the size of the deal, and
they'll have never met you probably, and
you're going to have to project yourself
in those seconds as you're walking up to
shake their hands.
What does that take? It takes an aura of
confidence. And it's in the eyes. It's
in the way you're you're standing. It's
in how the way you're dressed. It's it's
not a joke to be dressed for success,
you know. It's it's um it's
it's
but it's it's something about presenting
yourself and keeping your eyes focused
on who's talking to you so that they
know that you're absorbing the
information, that you respect the
information, that you're about to get
into a narrative with them of respect
even though that there may be
disagreements. All of this is happening
in the first 60 seconds. And it's
setting up for the rest of your life
with that person. It could be who you're
going to marry. It could be who you're
going to work with. It could be your
partner in business. It could be your
banker. It could be anybody. It could be
a soldier that's going to give up their
life for you. It's sort of who are you?
That's it.
Just closing off on the point you made
about women being your most successful
investments and the companies that have
given you the greatest returns tend to be
be
led by women. Does that mean that you
focus on hiring women into executive roles?
roles?
Yeah, I'm practically all women. Um,
particularly Asian women. I am a uh, you
know, this whole thing about DEI and all
this stuff. I've always had diversity
because I only hire on merit. I don't
care if what sex you are or what you
call yourself or what where you came
from or the color of your skin or what
planet you were born on. I couldn't give
a [ __ ] Can you execute?
And the way I hire people, and that's
why I have such a diverse staff in my
operating company, I don't hire you. I
say, "Look, you sound good, and you look
great on paper, but that doesn't mean
anything if you can't work within the
team. So, I know you want a job and you
want benefits and all that stuff, but
I'm not going to do that. If you want to
be part of my universe, you're going to
work for four to six months as a
contractor at a much higher salary.
because you're not going to get any
stock options, you're not going to get
any uh benefits. But I just want to see
what it's like for you to work with all
of the people that we deal with every
day. All the lawyers, all the bankers,
all of the, you know, the CEOs that we
have investments in and and your
co-workers because I don't do 9 to5
anymore. I do projectbased work. I don't
care where you live. We have people
working in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, uh England.
I mean, everywhere. everywhere and and
you know we meet we try and find an hour
every week where we can see each other
but we're just constantly communicating
using modern day tools today but
you know can you actually be given a
mandate and execute on it that's it I
don't care when you do it if you have to
get the financials out let's say you're
running in finance you got to get them
out the 15th for taxes I don't care when
you do it but if you miss the 15th I
care so I I need to find out if those
people can fit into that kind of an
environment. Some of them make it, some
of them don't. Some sometimes we know
right away after 90 days, let's hire
them, bring them in the team, and you
know, let's give them the whole package.
And sometimes after a month, we say,
"No, it's not going to work. Here's
like, you know, that's it." I think I
think more companies should do that.
Actually, it's more like the Swiss
apprentice system. They bring you into a
lot like, you know, my stepfather's
Swiss. I've been going to Switzerland
for 50 years. So if you're a giant
company like a Fiser or a Nestle, you
pull them out of high school at 14. You
give them a job in the afternoon. They
become an apprentice. They want to
learn. They want to work. They want to
understand what it's like and then you
find the the winners at while they're
still in high school. Then you give them
summer jobs and then you bring them into
the company. That's where I got the idea
from. The Swiss are genius that way
because you're sort of mitigating the
risk. I guess you're taking less of a a
risk on No, but you're also finding out
if their their DNA is going to fit with
your I mean, I want my team to make a
ton of money. I I just I want them to be
successful. I want every person to be
proud to work with the other and and
just we're almost invincible. We're so
damn good at what we do. You have the
same thing here. You you don't have
people that don't work for you. Well,
you get rid of them. You whack them. I'm
more just formal about it. Boom. You're gone.
gone.
With with the investments that you've
made, how many investments How many
offers have you done on Shark Tank now?
probably like 800
we know we don't even count it anymore
we look at the portfolio rolling over a
5 to sevenyear period
a lot like a lot and and the thing is
the thing what I've learned is you get a
you get an exit like uh base pause from
five years ago or something
remarkable woman
that was the the cat DNA thing
the cat DNA thing I mean nobody saw that
coming I thought the thing was a joke um
I was so wrong I mean that's the whole
point and and She she had the highest
IRA I think in the whole format's
history. Nobody's made her She was
around for 36 months and taken out at
such an extreme number in all cash that
there was an NDA signed between Sony and
the the pharmaceutical company. I can't
even tell you what it was. It was
extraordinary. It was extraordinary.
Was it nine figures?
Believe me, it's a tough NDA because and
I understand why they did it. They
didn't buy it for the cat DNA testing.
They bought it for the data
with AI didn't really wasn't emerging
then. It existed but it wasn't with the
data they have now. They can develop
products for animals that are
extraordinary in terms of feeds and medicines.
medicines. Yeah.
Yeah.
And nobody had that much data on the 110
million cats in America because she got
it all during the pandemic. thousands
and thousands and thousands of of of you
know it was it was never about it was it
was a data company. It's like my son
telling me when he got his internship at
Tesla, "Hey dad, it's not a car company.
It's a data company."
Buy the stock. I said, "I'm never buying
the stock. It's a joke. It's so
expensive." He said, "You're an idiot.
It's not a car company." So I bought the
stock and he was right. It became my
most successful investment. I I had to
keep selling it down to 5%. My cost base
is zero on Tesla now.
[ __ ] hell.
Yeah. Before it split and he worked
there for 5 years.
One of the personas that I have that
watches this show a lot are young
people, not always young, but that are
on the sofa thinking about being an
entrepreneur and they talk about it a
lot. You know, they they come up to me
in the street.
Twothirds will never do it.
Twothirds will never do it.
That you you might as well do it when
you have less burdensome risk like a
mortgage in a family. You might as well
do it in your 20s. You're going to fail
the first time, maybe the second, maybe
the third. You only need one success.
You I had plenty of failures and I I
still have failures. I mean, it's just,
you know, that one I talked about this
morning. It's, you know, when I I you
know, I I said to the largest
shareholders as was I was in the car and
your assistant was, you know, at looking
at me in the limo. I was telling the
other two shareholders, "Listen, guys,
it's it's a binary decision. As soon as
I get out of this interview, we're going
to make a decision.
This company's going bankrupt." Oh, on
the bankrupt company.
Yeah. Yeah. And so if we want to save
it, everybody's going to have to pony up
x million. And um we're going to own the
whole thing. We're just going to own it
all. We're going to we're just going to
do a cram down round at a fraction of a
cent. We're going to own the whole
thing. You want to do that or you want
to let it go bankrupt? You guys choose.
I'm onethird of it. So it's going to
have to be, you know, two against one.
And I'll do whatever they want because
that's how I am. But it's, you know, you
want to get yourself in a position in
life. I think most CEOs understand this.
You are going to have bad outcomes.
There are going to be bad outcomes. But
never put yourself in a situation where
one bad outcome defines who you are. I
mean, for those shareholders, they're
going to be unhappy. But then I got the
call on the IPO. Those shareholders be
very happy. They're going to make 400
400x. So it and that was one of my
learn to live with the idea that
you're going to fail. You're going to
lose money by taking risk.
Will it change relationships
permanently? Maybe. But if there if
you're respected and you're honest and
you're transparent, probably not. I
think there's a lot of people don't like
me for my bluntness. I don't care.
I think a lot of people respect me for
my blindness. They may not like me and
you know it's sort of um it doesn't
matter because the only people that
really matter to me are probably my
20iest closest friends in my family.
Do you think if you hadn't worked with
or known Steve Jobs you would be a
different person?
100%. Steve changed my life. There's no question.
question.
I didn't like him. But
I feel so bad that he he didn't have to
die that way.
He just wouldn't go with the modern
medicine at the time is my view. Guy was
He was so smart in terms of keeping on
track to get getting stuff done and look
what he achieved. But he was difficult
difficult
difficult because he wasn't always
right. But he was right so much that the
mistakes just didn't matter.
And I thought, you know, the people that
spent enough time with him know what I'm
talking about. Um,
you know, it occurred to me because I
know Waznjak too, not as well as Jobs,
but they really needed each other. They
really needed each other because W
understood he was he understood what the
let me draw an analogy here for you. I
think it's a good one.
take the situation going on right now with
with
Nvidia, AMD, to a certain extent Intel,
um maybe Broadcom,
where policymakers in Washington have
decided that we can't sell those chips
to countries like China or Russia or
whatever the list is of adversaries.
That's bad policy.
And here's why. What I learned from
from jobs was
the the computer, the chip is the queen
bee. It's it's the it's the queen bee.
But it has no value without the
honeybees, which are the programmers
around it that form a community that
spend all of their energy
writing code that works with the queen
bee, which is the chip that pushes out
its influence. Because every coder that
becomes familiar with that firmware,
that Bosnjak computer, writes to that
platform, is part of the honeybees.
Jobs understood that. He said, "I've got
to get every honeybee writing for the Mac,
Mac,
writing for the OS of Apple."
It's the same with
the Nvidia chip.
We need to sell it to everybody. Every
even adversaries because within
that country of Russia or China is some
genius kid. You don't know who he is or
she is that's going to write the next
piece of firmware or advanced AI
from the queen bee,
the chip, the American queen bee. The
minute you shut down a market and you
don't, your adversary sends their queen
bee in, which is Huawei.
We can't let that happen because I don't
think the lawmakers understand what jobs
understood. You create the hive with the
queen in the middle. That's the chip.
You convince every bee around
to make the honey, which is the
software, and that is the AI in this in
this case. You make it off that chip.
And when you advance the chip, again,
everybody knows how to take that set and
stay within the American chip that
you're advancing.
Maybe you keep them one generation
behind. Maybe maybe that's the policy.
But you don't ever let an adversary put
their queen bee in the middle of the
hive. You see what I'm saying?
Of course. I mean,
and that is what Jobs did. That was the
war between Gates and Jobs on the OS, on
the operating system.
Yeah. I was thinking about the app store
and yeah,
it's the same thing. It's exactly the
same thing. And so, so when I see this
policy now,
I go out of my mind. I mean, the first
thing I do is get on a plane, go to
Washington because AI is so important
for all the investments I've made. I do
not want to be putting Chinese honey
into my companies at all. It's that
simple. So for that person that's
stewing over their ideas now, if they
had just a couple of minutes with you
and they and they asked you the
question, Kevin, I'm about to start this
business. I'm about to go on this
journey of trying to go from zero to
something in my life. Is there anything
else that I need to know as I set upon
this sort of next 10 years of my life?
I'm 21 years old. What what are because
I think every entrepreneur has like
their principles. You you talked about
one which is the signal versus noise
thing. Are there any other foundational
principles that you think are conducive
that you might have learned?
Yeah, I mean I what I'm telling 20 21
year olds now is look,
go work for 24 months in a sector you
love that you're passionate about. Even
if they don't pay you, go in there and
be an apprentice. Um, if you're that
passionate, you're going to be able to
convince some manager to go work for
free in there. you're just they're going
to recognize your passion and they're
going to bring you in. Do that first.
Most young entrepreneurs say, "Nah, nah,
I don't want to work for anybody." I
said, "Yeah, you do actually. You you do
want to work for somebody. You want to
just understand how all the cogs move.
Just 24 months and after that launch.
The first one will probably fail. You're
going to start with your parents giving
you 10,000 bucks or whatever it is,
friends and family. But you will have
the baseline knowledge of your industry.
You will know who the participants are.
You will understand how it works and
you'll have a much higher probability of
success. But the key is to launch sort
of in your in your mid to early 20s
because you need to burn a few years
failing and and that that matters.
On the point of how to lead people, when
people hear about Jobs's approach, they
sometimes assume that you also have to
be an [ __ ] And this is the this is
the conflicting thing because the world
has changed since Jobs was in a
leadership position. Things have gone a
little bit more soft shall one say.
Have you seen all all types of
leadership win out in that regard? The
direct you know signal focused kind of
brash approach but also the kind approach.
approach.
I don't think kind works. I think
respect works. I I the same number of
[ __ ] are out there being successful
now as they were back in the 90s. Um
it doesn't matter um whether you're an
[ __ ] or whether people like you or
not. I mean, people get so stuck on this
stuff. It it's
the team you're building are not your
friends. They are the team you're
building to execute on a mandate. Your
customers come first. They're more
important. And then of course the
employees and how are they respected or
not. There are people that work for me I
don't like. It doesn't matter. I respect
them. I respect their ability to
execute. And that above all is the most
important thing. If you start getting
into interpersonal relationships, you
will fail because you may have to fire
that person one day. People that hire
family take huge risk. Nepotism is a
horrible disease. It's it's uh some of
the greatest uh private companies on
earth never let the kids run them. They
just put them on the board and they hire
professional management. That's how they
keep wealth multigenerational.
Think about a tetropac for example.
People may not know that name but it's a
massive successful company. IKEA I mean
you know it's sort of you have to learn
those lessons. It's it's um
it's about respect
in both directions. It's not about
likability or softness or some social
met metric. It it really isn't. And
trying to redefine leadership that way
because it's on trend, it's not going to work.
work.
I started my first business at 12 years
old and I started more businesses at 14,
15, 16, 17, and 18. And at that time,
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What about finding the definition of the
word company is group of people. So in
terms of finding great people, is there
anything that you can offer to
entrepreneurs that are listening about
how you've done that and what you've
learned over time, the mistakes you've
made with assembling your group of people.
people.
Yeah. Hiring them without testing them
first. I've made that mistake.
So So you now test them first.
Just because someone says they can
execute doesn't mean they can. I mean
it's of course you're in an interview.
They're not going to say I can't
execute. You know, you're looking at
their past. You're saying this looks
terrific. Looks like you can fit in, but
it's on a piece of paper. They haven't
been road tested. They haven't been put
in a situation where they have to make
individual decisions that that have
consequence. The people you want are
able to make decisions that have
consequence. Good, bad, good
consequence, bad consequence. You don't
know yet. But they have to have be able
to make that decision on their own
without calling you up because you gave
them that mandate. Maybe you put a set
of parameter you could spend a million
bucks no more without calling me. But
whatever it is, I don't want to hear
from them. I just want the outcome.
What about resilience and hard work? How
much does that matter to you? Cuz I know
you said they can work when you know
they as long as they get the job done.
But are you trying to figure out if they
are a bit of a psychopath in terms of
hard work, if they're possessed, obsessed?
obsessed?
I don't find the ones that are
psychopaths hard work are actually the
most successful. It's not the case. I
find the ones that are eclectic people
that have other pursuits that are
nothing to do with the business they're
in that
do crazy stuff. You know, maybe it's
riding motorcycles in the desert. I
don't know. You know, these are the
examples I'm just using because I'm
living with them.
And say, "Look, I've got to go and ride
a bicycle across the the desert." Okay.
How many days you going to be gone? I
don't know. Maybe three. Okay. Is there
anything that is immediate? That tells
me that
if you look at if you look at the years
outcome from that person, you're going
to find that they probably outperformed.
You you you want you want you want the
eclectic ones. You want the ones that
are not just robots working. It it's
going to be cheaper to get a robot if
you want a robot. I'm going to buy those
too when they come available. But I want
people that have creative and
and
unusual solutions
that you know just think outside of the box.
box.
It's it's really interesting that way.
The other thing that um everybody wants
to hear from you about is how to keep
and grow your wealth because you know
making wealth. I kind of understand
through the lens of entrepreneurship,
take a big bet, um hopefully have an
exit or you know draw a dividend or make
profit from a company you've started.
But in terms of what you did and your
relationship with your money, what is
the most important things for someone to
understand who's just trying to grow
their money?
Yeah. Yeah. Know I learned this from my
mother and I actually built a whole
indexing company around it when I was
very young. I found out something uh
that um so she um was fiercely
independent. She's one of three
daughters uh of Lebanese descent. Myth's
father, my my father, my original
father, biological father was Irish.
She didn't Yeah, there she is. Geette. So,
She was very independent and
and
she never ever wanted a man to control
her life. So she started at an early age
when she was working for her father.
They paid the girls. the family all
worked there and she worked in the
accounting department
and billing, but she got paid cash and
so she
would take 20%
of that cash each week and
she would put it into two asset classes.
Stocks that paid dividends, large cap
stocks and telco bonds.
7-year Telco bonds paid about 6 and a
half to 8% back then. She bought the
long bonds and she had that portfolio
for 55 years. Wow.
Wow.
Um she never spent any of the principal,
only the dividends and the interest. She
put my brother and I through college,
you know, she took care of her family
and her sisters when they fell on hard
times. But her rule is very simple. No
more than 5% in any one stock or bond of
the portfolio. and no more than 20% in
any one sector ever. Ever. So when a
stock ran up past five, she'd sell it
down. This is not genius. This is just diversification.
diversification. And
And
when she passed and I I was the older
brother and I saw the portfolio cuz the
lawyer said, "Listen, you got to come
down here. You're the executive of
Will." And I said, "Yeah, but you know,
my mother was middle class."
He said, "No, you got to come down
here." um she kept her account secret
from both of her husbands. She wanted
her own independent money and back then
you could do that
and um damn I mean what that portfolio
did the performance was extraordinary.
It was beyond any hedge fund guy or
anything 55 years.
When I saw the results I said that's it.
That's how I'm going to invest for the
rest of my life. Exactly the way Geette
did. No more than 5%
in any one stock ever. No ma no matter
what it is and no more than 20% in any
one sector with the exception of real
estate which is a very large part of
what I have in net worth and I it's a
it's a third. So that's broken the rule
but there's reasons for that and I'm
very happy with that portfolio. But um
that if she if if everybody that's
listening to this does that they will
maintain and grow their wealth. But it's
people bet. They make big bets. They
just they think they're so damn right.
They put half their net worth into one
sector or one stock and they get wiped
out. That's what happens.
So would your mother pick the stocks
herself or would she invest in an index
fund or
she indexed?
She used Okay. So you can even back then
you know they didn't have ETFs but they
had mutual funds that said their own the
only stock in this mutual fund is it
doesn't have any debt and it pays
dividends you know whatever they were
very rudimentary back then they were
just collections of stocks I think she
had like
28 names or something like that in the
portfolio but if you looked at them they
were really boring large cap names but
they were sectorally diverse there
wasn't 10 sectors back then there was
only there there There wasn't 11, there
was 10. So, they didn't have real estate
as a sector. So, but you know, I looked
at it saying, "Wow, at least they're
really boring."
You learned a lot about money from your
early upbringing, right? From your that
early context.
Yeah. Because what she said to me was, "Look,
"Look,
you know, I I even do this today with
wealthy people call me up all the time
and say, "Look, um,
you know, they get divorced. this really
this a very wealthy woman got divorced
recently and she said look I you know
divorcing and she was a billionaire she
was divorcing she was more
multi-billionaire and so she said look I
I'm getting everybody's calling me up um
to be my advisor because I'm separating
from my husband it's all his guys that
did all the management of our family
wealth would you be my adviser I said no
I don't do that um but you know I can I
can just give you some basic advice and
you and hire people that stick on the
mandate. And I gave her Georgette
strategy, but she I I had her do
something else, too. I said, "Let's get
a piece of paper. You're a billionaire.
Let's put everything on this piece of
paper on the last 90 days that you've
spent on whatever the hell it is. I
don't care. And let's put on no
computer, no spreadsheet on this. Let's
look at all the income that you've made
off your portfolio as it stands now,
whether it's gold you have or land or
stocks or bonds.
Let's just do a a gut check on do you
outspend yourself.
She said, "Why would I give a shit?" I
said, "Wouldn't you like to know how
much money you're burning living your
lifestyle the way you live it just out
of interest? Maybe you have enough for
the rest of your life, but maybe you
want to give some of it to your family
one day or give it to charity. Wouldn't
you like to know?" Because one of my
rules is never outspend yourself on any
30 or 60 day cycle ever.
Just ever. I don't have any debt. So, so
I'm very careful about that. And we went
through this little thing.
She freaked out. She was pissing away
money. Just bleeding
hundreds of thousands of dollars a week.
I mean, I don't care how rich you are,
you don't want to be stupid. And I said,
"Does that shock you? One of two things
has to happen. I mean, you're you're
losing millions of dollars a quarter. Like,
Like,
why? Why? Like you don't you you've had
nobody restrict what you do with your
money because you're going to have to
sell stocks at some point or sell gold
or sell land to keep this up and are you
really that happy? Like what do you
what's all this [ __ ] you're buying? Like
what is all this crap that you don't
need? It was a eye openener for her. So
I'm my point is most people don't do
that exercise. I don't care if you're
only making 56,000 a year or 68 the
average salary.
So, are you in the camp that you
shouldn't spend money on the small
things like the coffee? If you don't
need it, you should make the coffee at
home. Is that kind of
I I just I can't stand it when I see
kids that are making 70 grand a year
spending $28 for lunch. I mean, that's
just stupid. It's just think about that
in the context of that being put into an
index and making 8 to 8 to 10% a year
for the next 50 years.
What's an index for someone that doesn't
So, okay. I mean, you know, I even have
it. I even built an app for this purpose
just so I could There's many apps out
there. You don't have to use mine.
Mine's called Bean Stocks, but you just
allocate 15% of your salary and it
automatically puts it into two buckets.
Some stocks and some bonds. The stocks
are ETFs, exchange traded funds that
just track the S&P 500. Very simply,
mine's a little
The S&P 500 is the top 500 stocks.
Yeah. So, it's just, you know, people
tell me, "Oh, I can beat the S&P. I can
pick stocks." They're so full of crap.
not over the long period they can. So,
it's better you might as well just own
ETFs. I have a version of the S&P that I
designed with other people that strips
out all the crappy balance sheets. But
that's just me. You can just buy the
index that you want. You know, the ETF
and then you pay low fees and then over
time it appreciates and then if you buy
some treasury bills or what fixed income
you get that you should have less of
those when you're young and more of them
when you're older. That's just
diversification. But you you know the
best test I do with my kids' friends
too. Go into a closet. Go into your
closet and look at how much [ __ ] you
have you don't wear because you either
bought it because you thought you were
going to wear it and never wore it or
wore it once and you end up wearing 20%
of your portfolio all of the time and
80% you you pissed away. I mean that's
really stupid. And so for a young
person, a young woman or man, don't do
that. Start putting and just buy the
minimum stuff. And another thing I
learned from my mother, this is
interesting because I saw it happen at
her death. She,
you know, would buy two Chanel jackets a
year, really expensive Chanel jackets,
handmade Chanel jackets. I do business
with Chanel because of, you know, the
legacy of my mother and the whole Coco
Chanel thing and watches. I love those
guys. And
her theory was this will never get old.
And it never did. A classic vintage
Chanel jacket from the 50s that's well-kept
well-kept
is worth a fortune today. The classic,
it still wears beautifully. They're so
well made. So, she wouldn't buy crap.
She'd buy really good stuff, but a
little just small amounts of it. And
over the years, she'd built up this
portfolio of amazing clothing. And when
she died, the women in in our family had
a cat fight over her portfolio. Unbelievable.
Unbelievable.
Is that in part why you have so many
watches? I've noticed you have a watch
on either wrist right now.
Yeah, I'm pretty big in watches. I mean,
but but watches to me, every piece I
have marks something in my life that was
important. A deal, a child, graduation,
um, you know, something. Every piece.
I've got a lot of watches.
How many have you got?
I I don't even say anymore because of
the insurance policy I have. I got a lot.
lot.
Do you invest in You're talking about
your your mother's investing strategy,
and one of the things you said is she
invested in dividend stocks.
Yes. What is a dividend stock and should
I be investing in dividend stocks?
Yeah, I mean, you know, a company if
it's profitable and it's operating, it
business plan is working and it's
growing market share at some point says,
"I'm going to distribute some of the
success of our profits to our
shareholders." That's a dividend. And so
they send that cash to you and you can
either redeploy it in other ways or live
off it or whatever. Many tech stocks
until recently did not pay dividends.
But now the behemoth tech stocks do pay
dividends because the demand of an aging
population is I need to eat and so I
like to own the stock for growth but I
also want to get some of the profits and
so dividend paying stocks uh used to be utilities uh but not so today. Every
utilities uh but not so today. Every every sector has dividend paying stocks.
every sector has dividend paying stocks. So I prefer to own dividend paying
So I prefer to own dividend paying stocks div payers and then I also own
stocks div payers and then I also own fixed income products. I also own crypto
fixed income products. I also own crypto now and I own alternative assets like
now and I own alternative assets like gold and watches. My watch collection's
gold and watches. My watch collection's actually done quite well even though
actually done quite well even though there's been a correction. There's
there's been a correction. There's volatility, but I have some watches that
volatility, but I have some watches that have, you know, I bought for
have, you know, I bought for 200,000 that are worth over a million
200,000 that are worth over a million today.
today. Crypto. So, are you still bullish on
Crypto. So, are you still bullish on crypto as an investment?
crypto as an investment? Yeah, I am actually, but people get
Yeah, I am actually, but people get crypto confused with its real potential.
crypto confused with its real potential. Um,
Um, uh, let's talk about digital payment
uh, let's talk about digital payment systems because what's about to pass
systems because what's about to pass first, we're days away from this
first, we're days away from this happening, is the Genius Act, which is
happening, is the Genius Act, which is actually the Stablecoin Act. It was just
actually the Stablecoin Act. It was just passed by the Senate 48 hours ago. It's
passed by the Senate 48 hours ago. It's going back to the House. I I actually
going back to the House. I I actually worked on that bill two years ago. So,
worked on that bill two years ago. So, if that bill passes, it's really nothing
if that bill passes, it's really nothing to do with speculating on crypto. It's a
to do with speculating on crypto. It's a new form of payment. So, if I wanted to
new form of payment. So, if I wanted to order a watch in uh from Simone Brit,
order a watch in uh from Simone Brit, who's somebody I buy watches from. He's
who's somebody I buy watches from. He's a master watch maker. Right now, I have
a master watch maker. Right now, I have to take US dollars, I've got to get
to take US dollars, I've got to get through a know your client um
through a know your client um prerogative. Um I'm treated like a
prerogative. Um I'm treated like a criminal by transferring $100,000 over.
criminal by transferring $100,000 over. Turn it into Swiss Franks. Takes about a
Turn it into Swiss Franks. Takes about a week. I get screwed for about 200 basis
week. I get screwed for about 200 basis points in the whole thing. If I if he
points in the whole thing. If I if he accepted USDC, which is actually a
accepted USDC, which is actually a stable coin back with the US dollar,
stable coin back with the US dollar, just went public, very successful IPO. I
just went public, very successful IPO. I was a shareholder in that company, too.
was a shareholder in that company, too. That's one of my best IPOs in the last
That's one of my best IPOs in the last two years. The transaction would happen
two years. The transaction would happen in less than a second and the fees would
in less than a second and the fees would be at hundth of what the costs are right
be at hundth of what the costs are right now. So it's a digital payment system.
now. So it's a digital payment system. The price doesn't it's not it's no
The price doesn't it's not it's no speculation on it's backed by the US
speculation on it's backed by the US dollar treasury bills. So it's sort of a
dollar treasury bills. So it's sort of a new form of of digital payment. That's
new form of of digital payment. That's different than Bitcoin which is a
different than Bitcoin which is a speculation. It's if you believe in
speculation. It's if you believe in Bitcoin, you think it's a digital gold
Bitcoin, you think it's a digital gold and you live through the volatility. I
and you live through the volatility. I believe in both. I believe that that
believe in both. I believe that that crypto will be the 12th sector of the
crypto will be the 12th sector of the S&P in some period of time because it
S&P in some period of time because it provides productivity to all 11 other
provides productivity to all 11 other sectors. So the way I own it is I own
sectors. So the way I own it is I own the exchanges. My exchange in one called
the exchanges. My exchange in one called Wonderfy up in Canada just got acquired
Wonderfy up in Canada just got acquired last week or two weeks ago by Robin
last week or two weeks ago by Robin Hood. I'm happy because I think Vlad who
Hood. I'm happy because I think Vlad who runs Robin Hood's great and now he's got
runs Robin Hood's great and now he's got a million plus accounts in Canada and
a million plus accounts in Canada and market that he never participated in.
market that he never participated in. But the point is this is never going
But the point is this is never going away. It's going to stay forever. So how
away. It's going to stay forever. So how do you participate? You can buy some
do you participate? You can buy some Bitcoin just like you can buy gold, buy
Bitcoin just like you can buy gold, buy it in an ETF or actually own it
it in an ETF or actually own it yourself. You can buy the exchanges. You
yourself. You can buy the exchanges. You can use um you know you can buy Circle
can use um you know you can buy Circle stock now it's public. You can Circle
stock now it's public. You can Circle makes USDC. you can buy USDC in in an
makes USDC. you can buy USDC in in an account and make 4.1% interest on it
account and make 4.1% interest on it right now. So, there's a lot of ways to
right now. So, there's a lot of ways to participate, but yes, I'm here to stay,
participate, but yes, I'm here to stay, but I've g I've grown up. I was around
but I've g I've grown up. I was around during the period where the crypto
during the period where the crypto cowboys lived and and I survived that
cowboys lived and and I survived that all and I even testified in front of the
all and I even testified in front of the Senate and the House and whatever else
Senate and the House and whatever else the testimonies were during the the
the testimonies were during the the tumultuous period and most of those guys
tumultuous period and most of those guys went to jail.
went to jail. Your portfolio in terms of Bitcoin
Your portfolio in terms of Bitcoin allocation or crypto allocation, what is
allocation or crypto allocation, what is it now?
it now? It's at about allin. Uh we we marked to
It's at about allin. Uh we we marked to market last month it was 19.1%.
market last month it was 19.1%. 19.1%.
19.1%. Yeah. We have to keep it under 20. It's
Yeah. We have to keep it under 20. It's a sector. So but remember in that is the
a sector. So but remember in that is the cryptos itself, Bitcoin, the USDC and
cryptos itself, Bitcoin, the USDC and the shares of the infrastructure
the shares of the infrastructure companies like Circle and everything
companies like Circle and everything else. I've got you know it was a very
else. I've got you know it was a very successful IPO. One of the first things
successful IPO. One of the first things most people do when they get a bit of
most people do when they get a bit of money, usually from their their job, is
money, usually from their their job, is they get a mortgage on a house because
they get a mortgage on a house because we're kind of taught as we grow up that
we're kind of taught as we grow up that the best way to make or the the not
the best way to make or the the not maybe the best, but the most obvious way
maybe the best, but the most obvious way to create wealth is to buy your first
to create wealth is to buy your first home.
home. Yeah, there's a very basic rule for that
Yeah, there's a very basic rule for that and I understand it and I did the same
and I understand it and I did the same thing. But what I made sure again from
thing. But what I made sure again from my mother was never let the mortgage and
my mother was never let the mortgage and the cost of maintaining the house be
the cost of maintaining the house be more than onethird
more than onethird of your income. Onethird of your income.
of your income. Onethird of your income. If it's more than onethird, you bought
If it's more than onethird, you bought too much house. So it's better to buy a
too much house. So it's better to buy a house that's maybe it's only going to be
house that's maybe it's only going to be 1,900 square feet to start in a
1,900 square feet to start in a neighborhood that you may not want to
neighborhood that you may not want to stay for the rest of your life, but
stay for the rest of your life, but start to acrue the benefit of real
start to acrue the benefit of real estate from that point of view. Learn
estate from that point of view. Learn how to manage it. Maybe you rent part of
how to manage it. Maybe you rent part of it out or whatever, but it can't be more
it out or whatever, but it can't be more than a third of your income. The mistake
than a third of your income. The mistake that people made, and they're starting
that people made, and they're starting to suffer from it now, is when money was
to suffer from it now, is when money was so cheap, mortgage mortgage rates were
so cheap, mortgage mortgage rates were under 4%, they were 3.2% some of them,
under 4%, they were 3.2% some of them, they bought massive houses. And now
they bought massive houses. And now they're running into having to refinance
they're running into having to refinance those houses at much higher rates, more
those houses at much higher rates, more than 7%. And it's becoming 60, 70, 80%
than 7%. And it's becoming 60, 70, 80% of their income. They're screwed. They
of their income. They're screwed. They bought too much house. So, it's about
bought too much house. So, it's about making sure that you can manage that.
making sure that you can manage that. And also you want some diversification.
And also you want some diversification. Yes, a mortgage is okay, particular if
Yes, a mortgage is okay, particular if you're having a family because you're
you're having a family because you're going to pay rent or you're gonna pay a
going to pay rent or you're gonna pay a mortgage, one of the two. But you want
mortgage, one of the two. But you want some diversification in starting to
some diversification in starting to build up that investment account for
build up that investment account for when you retire so that you have
when you retire so that you have something to live off. If you only put
something to live off. If you only put aside 15% if you're you're making 70,000
aside 15% if you're you're making 70,000 a year and you put 15% aside from when
a year and you put 15% aside from when you're 25, you'll have over a million
you're 25, you'll have over a million and a half dollars if you just invested
and a half dollars if you just invested it in the stock index in the S&P 500.
it in the stock index in the S&P 500. That's what that's what history has told
That's what that's what history has told you.
you. In what time frame?
In what time frame? Your whole career. I mean, you're going
Your whole career. I mean, you're going to be 65, you're 25, 65. You just stick
to be 65, you're 25, 65. You just stick with that protocol and you'll watch it
with that protocol and you'll watch it grow. You'll watch it grow. You go up
grow. You'll watch it grow. You go up and down as the market goes up and down.
and down as the market goes up and down. Some years it'll go flat, whatever. But
Some years it'll go flat, whatever. But it's the people that don't even think
it's the people that don't even think ahead and find themselves at 45 mired in
ahead and find themselves at 45 mired in debt, including a mortgage. You want to
debt, including a mortgage. You want to get rid of your mortgage in your 40s.
get rid of your mortgage in your 40s. Most people's primary investment asset
Most people's primary investment asset is the house they buy.
is the house they buy. Is that
Is that Yes, it is. But it's also the debt they
Yes, it is. But it's also the debt they own. It's a primary asset. How much debt
own. It's a primary asset. How much debt does it have on it? It's only the equity
does it have on it? It's only the equity value is the asset. So, if you're buying
value is the asset. So, if you're buying a house that's too big and it's you've
a house that's too big and it's you've only put down 10% and it's 90% mortgage,
only put down 10% and it's 90% mortgage, what do you really own? you really own
what do you really own? you really own the 10%
the 10% at whatever price it is. Sometimes
at whatever price it is. Sometimes housing goes flat for a while. It's it's
housing goes flat for a while. It's it's okay, but it's not okay if it's too much
okay, but it's not okay if it's too much house.
house. If you're a 25year-old and you're on
If you're a 25year-old and you're on that 70k that you talked about, and your
that 70k that you talked about, and your objective was to make money, you don't
objective was to make money, you don't have kids, you don't you're not in a
have kids, you don't you're not in a relationship,
relationship, would you buy a house?
would you buy a house? No. No, I wouldn't because why do I need
No. No, I wouldn't because why do I need a house if I'm only unless I'm renting
a house if I'm only unless I'm renting as an income property? I'm buying a
as an income property? I'm buying a house because I'm getting married. I'm
house because I'm getting married. I'm going to raise a family. I need a house.
going to raise a family. I need a house. I mean,
I mean, is that the the use case for buying a
is that the the use case for buying a house? You think?
house? You think? I think it is. People, but it's not.
I think it is. People, but it's not. There are many people that say, "I love
There are many people that say, "I love real estate. I'm going to buy three
real estate. I'm going to buy three houses. I'm going to rent them out."
houses. I'm going to rent them out." That's a different business. And I know
That's a different business. And I know people in their 20s that do that. In
people in their 20s that do that. In fact, they're successful. That's all
fact, they're successful. That's all they do. And so, that their job is to
they do. And so, that their job is to find houses, buy them, fix them up, and
find houses, buy them, fix them up, and rent them. And they manage that
rent them. And they manage that geographically tight portfolio. It
geographically tight portfolio. It happens a lot in student housing. for
happens a lot in student housing. for example, got a good friend who's
example, got a good friend who's involved in student housing. He's very
involved in student housing. He's very successful. He just focuses on one
successful. He just focuses on one aspect, buildings that rent to students
aspect, buildings that rent to students and he manages it and he, you know,
and he manages it and he, you know, raises a family. He's successful, but
raises a family. He's successful, but that's one thing he does. That's not the
that's one thing he does. That's not the same as saying, "I'm going to buy a
same as saying, "I'm going to buy a house cuz I'm I just got married and I'm
house cuz I'm I just got married and I'm going to raise I'm going to have a child
going to raise I'm going to have a child in the next 24 months." Then you should
in the next 24 months." Then you should have a house. But if you're you said to
have a house. But if you're you said to me, "I'm single. I want to make money."
me, "I'm single. I want to make money." I wouldn't buy a house. That's not the
I wouldn't buy a house. That's not the number one asset class. I think I'd get
number one asset class. I think I'd get a diversified portfolio and just ride
a diversified portfolio and just ride the pony with that for a while until I
the pony with that for a while until I meet that special person I'm going to,
meet that special person I'm going to, you know, raise a family with and then I
you know, raise a family with and then I have a little nest egg I can work with.
have a little nest egg I can work with. I mean,
I mean, wealth creation
wealth creation comes down to one word, discipline.
comes down to one word, discipline. That's it. The ability to look at
That's it. The ability to look at something and say, "I'm not going to buy
something and say, "I'm not going to buy that. I'm going to keep that money
that. I'm going to keep that money working for me." Not many people have
working for me." Not many people have that discipline.
that discipline. Wealthy people have that discipline. You
Wealthy people have that discipline. You meet them later in life, you realize
meet them later in life, you realize when they were young and had nothing,
when they were young and had nothing, even the ones that were employees their
even the ones that were employees their whole lives that are now financially
whole lives that are now financially free had the discipline to say no.
free had the discipline to say no. There's so much stuff you don't need.
There's so much stuff you don't need. And you should never buy a watch unless
And you should never buy a watch unless you can afford it. Ever go on debt for a
you can afford it. Ever go on debt for a watch because people hear this stuff
watch because people hear this stuff say, "I'm going to buy watches like with
say, "I'm going to buy watches like with red bands." No, you're not. That's why I
red bands." No, you're not. That's why I wear watches now that cost under $500 to
wear watches now that cost under $500 to show kids you want to get into herology.
show kids you want to get into herology. You don't have to spend, you know,
You don't have to spend, you know, $50,000. Here's a here's a Timex for
$50,000. Here's a here's a Timex for $265. It looks beautiful. Get that.
$265. It looks beautiful. Get that. You said, uh, you know, don't buy the
You said, uh, you know, don't buy the house until you meet your partner, etc.
house until you meet your partner, etc. How much does the person that you fall
How much does the person that you fall in love with have an impact on your
in love with have an impact on your finances, your money, your chance of
finances, your money, your chance of success in your view?
success in your view? It's everything. Are you kidding? I
It's everything. Are you kidding? I mean, it's it's everything. If you read
mean, it's it's everything. If you read I mean, think about this.
I mean, think about this. You you need to find somebody if you're
You you need to find somebody if you're an entrepreneur. So that's for the we're
an entrepreneur. So that's for the we're talking about the third now that want to
talking about the third now that want to go on the rocket ship ride. You better
go on the rocket ship ride. You better find somebody that's willing to tolerate
find somebody that's willing to tolerate the fact that you're never home for the
the fact that you're never home for the first 10 years. They're going to raise a
first 10 years. They're going to raise a family by themselves because there's no
family by themselves because there's no balance in life. That that idea of
balance in life. That that idea of balance is complete [ __ ] I mean,
balance is complete [ __ ] I mean, it's just [ __ ] You have to work so
it's just [ __ ] You have to work so hard to compete globally these days in
hard to compete globally these days in every sector. you're going to work your
every sector. you're going to work your ass off and it's not going to happen
ass off and it's not going to happen over I mean Anna Sky did it in three
over I mean Anna Sky did it in three years but she had worked much harder
years but she had worked much harder previously it was not her first deal but
previously it was not her first deal but she was just lucky I mean she
she was just lucky I mean she was this the cat DNA
was this the cat DNA cat thing I mean she's she she but she's
cat thing I mean she's she she but she's you know she's she's working again she's
you know she's she's working again she's back she wants to work I mean that's
back she wants to work I mean that's what happens you never stop working but
what happens you never stop working but the thing is
the thing is that partnership
that partnership and this is what people don't get about
and this is what people don't get about marriage
marriage marriage Marriage is a business. I know
marriage Marriage is a business. I know people go nuts when I say that, but it's
people go nuts when I say that, but it's a business. And the first child you're
a business. And the first child you're going to have is money. It's going to be
going to have is money. It's going to be the first child, and it's going to sit
the first child, and it's going to sit at the table with you every day. It's
at the table with you every day. It's it's there sitting there. If you don't
it's there sitting there. If you don't have money, you don't have a marriage. I
have money, you don't have a marriage. I mean, the reason people get married is
mean, the reason people get married is to form a form of financial stability so
to form a form of financial stability so that they can afford a family. And you
that they can afford a family. And you have to figure out,
have to figure out, you know, I'm I'm I've been with my wife
you know, I'm I'm I've been with my wife a long time and we've been separated for
a long time and we've been separated for a couple of years, but you know, family
a couple of years, but you know, family is very important to me. So, I we got
is very important to me. So, I we got back together again. We you know, our
back together again. We you know, our daughter got us back together. I'm very
daughter got us back together. I'm very happy we did it. But it's
happy we did it. But it's we make financial decisions together. We
we make financial decisions together. We we always check in, you know, anything
we always check in, you know, anything that's material,
that's material, you know, if we're going to do a
you know, if we're going to do a renovation or something. And and I
renovation or something. And and I respect her for that. I have a lot of
respect her for that. I have a lot of respect for her because she doesn't just
respect for her because she doesn't just spend money. We didn't have any money
spend money. We didn't have any money when we started. We had nothing. And so
when we started. We had nothing. And so that's why a great marriage can work
that's why a great marriage can work because you build it together. You
because you build it together. You really care about it. You care about
really care about it. You care about your family. You also care about what
your family. You also care about what you you've created in wealth. And I
you you've created in wealth. And I consider my money her money. You like
consider my money her money. You like because she was the family that let me
because she was the family that let me go and do this stuff. Now I don't have
go and do this stuff. Now I don't have the same relationship with our kids that
the same relationship with our kids that she does because she raised them. But
she does because she raised them. But that's the thing you give up and you
that's the thing you give up and you have to give something up. That's it.
have to give something up. That's it. You can be a great father, a great
You can be a great father, a great provider, but you're never going to have
provider, but you're never going to have the closest that she had reading them
the closest that she had reading them stories when they were young. I wasn't
stories when they were young. I wasn't there. But, you know, the outcome has
there. But, you know, the outcome has been good. I think everybody looks at
been good. I think everybody looks at that and says, "All right, that's
that and says, "All right, that's great."
great." But my mother never believed in
But my mother never believed in entitlement. And so, I don't believe in
entitlement. And so, I don't believe in it either. I'm not gifting my kids a ton
it either. I'm not gifting my kids a ton of money. You know, I I want them to
of money. You know, I I want them to launch, and they've done that
launch, and they've done that successfully. They got to they got to
successfully. They got to they got to work. You know, they got to do their
work. You know, they got to do their thing. I've heard you say before that
thing. I've heard you say before that the most important financial decision
the most important financial decision you'll ever make is who you'll marry.
you'll ever make is who you'll marry. Yes.
Yes. Why?
Why? Because think of the geometric loss of
Because think of the geometric loss of wealth. Every time you get divorced,
wealth. Every time you get divorced, you pay the woman that you divorced or
you pay the woman that you divorced or man and you pay the government
man and you pay the government a third often through capital gains and
a third often through capital gains and liquidation because you can't separate
liquidation because you can't separate all the assets without liquidating them
all the assets without liquidating them sometimes. So, you've got the government
sometimes. So, you've got the government sitting there. You've got the other
sitting there. You've got the other spouse sitting there. This is the
spouse sitting there. This is the stupidest thing you can ever do. It took
stupidest thing you can ever do. It took your whole life to
your whole life to to actually create this nest egg.
to actually create this nest egg. Could be, you know, you're 45 or
Could be, you know, you're 45 or whatever. You you've got a comfortable
whatever. You you've got a comfortable life and all of a sudden you don't like
life and all of a sudden you don't like your wife or husband. Think about that
your wife or husband. Think about that for a while because you are going to
for a while because you are going to wipe out up to twothirds of your wealth.
wipe out up to twothirds of your wealth. You better really like somebody else a
You better really like somebody else a lot. And frankly,
lot. And frankly, sometimes it's not the other person that
sometimes it's not the other person that you're divorcing. It's you. You're the
you're divorcing. It's you. You're the problem. If you're getting married for
problem. If you're getting married for the third time, you're a guy or woman.
the third time, you're a guy or woman. It's not them. It's you. There's
It's not them. It's you. There's something wrong with you. And you should
something wrong with you. And you should probably not get into another economic
probably not get into another economic union. You should probably just date
union. You should probably just date till you drop dead because it's stupid.
till you drop dead because it's stupid. Marriages are tough. I mean, they're
Marriages are tough. I mean, they're tough. Anybody who's been married for
tough. Anybody who's been married for more than 20 years knows exactly what
more than 20 years knows exactly what I'm talking about. But they have they
I'm talking about. But they have they acrew more benefit than than you know
acrew more benefit than than you know anything. So if as long if you're happy
anything. So if as long if you're happy 51% of the day with your wife, stay with
51% of the day with your wife, stay with him or her husband or wife. You that's
him or her husband or wife. You that's very important. How often do you think
very important. How often do you think divorces are a result of money issues?
divorces are a result of money issues? Well, you may be shocked at this. I
Well, you may be shocked at this. I wrote a book um about this and I decided
wrote a book um about this and I decided uh men and women of money a long time
uh men and women of money a long time ago, 10 years plus. Right there it is.
ago, 10 years plus. Right there it is. And I did some research and I I uh went
And I did some research and I I uh went to meet some of the top um divorce
to meet some of the top um divorce lawyers in North America, in New York,
lawyers in North America, in New York, in Boston, and other cities.
in Boston, and other cities. And I said, "Look, I I want to kind of
And I said, "Look, I I want to kind of do a pie chart of reasons for divorce
do a pie chart of reasons for divorce that seemed 50% seem to end divorce
that seemed 50% seem to end divorce within 5 to seven years."
within 5 to seven years." Every one of them, they didn't know each
Every one of them, they didn't know each other, said, "It's not infidelity.
other, said, "It's not infidelity. Nothing to do with it. Most marriages
Nothing to do with it. Most marriages can u survive infidelity.
can u survive infidelity. they can't survive financial stress.
they can't survive financial stress. And so what happens invariably is you
And so what happens invariably is you fall in love, but you didn't do any due
fall in love, but you didn't do any due diligence on that person's spending
diligence on that person's spending habits or their financial history
habits or their financial history because La More is so wonderful in the
because La More is so wonderful in the early days. You didn't do any diligence
early days. You didn't do any diligence on their family or them or their brother
on their family or them or their brother or bankruptcy in the past or whatever it
or bankruptcy in the past or whatever it is. And then you get married and you
is. And then you get married and you know the euphoria starts to wear off and
know the euphoria starts to wear off and you notice that the other is outspending
you notice that the other is outspending you
you just buying a lot of stuff
just buying a lot of stuff beyond your means.
beyond your means. And that starts the first friction. And
And that starts the first friction. And then that credit card comes in with
then that credit card comes in with $100,000 on it at 23% interest and
$100,000 on it at 23% interest and another
another purse was bought or whatever the hell it
purse was bought or whatever the hell it is.
is. and you're you're starting to sink
and you're you're starting to sink because you may have married somebody
because you may have married somebody who can't stop spending. This is just a
who can't stop spending. This is just a typical
typical there are people that can't have no
there are people that can't have no discipline. They just can't. They got to
discipline. They just can't. They got to have the boat. They got to have this.
have the boat. They got to have this. They got to have that. And they pressure
They got to have that. And they pressure their other to say, "Look, I want to
their other to say, "Look, I want to keep up with the Joneses next door, even
keep up with the Joneses next door, even though they may only each have a salary
though they may only each have a salary of 100 grand each. Can't do it." And
of 100 grand each. Can't do it." And they have kids and they're trying to put
they have kids and they're trying to put them through college.
them through college. That's divorce. That's why almost 90% of
That's divorce. That's why almost 90% of of unions break up is is is that classic
of unions break up is is is that classic financial pressure and divorce gets them
financial pressure and divorce gets them out of that mess because they can no
out of that mess because they can no longer spend on your credit card
longer spend on your credit card anymore. But it's a horrible way to go.
anymore. But it's a horrible way to go. So I, you know, I'm an investor in a
So I, you know, I'm an investor in a company called Hello Prenup that does
company called Hello Prenup that does divorces for does um uh prenups for
divorces for does um uh prenups for women and prenups forced during the
women and prenups forced during the euphoric period diligence.
euphoric period diligence. It's that simple. You're going to find
It's that simple. You're going to find out if that person has a financial
out if that person has a financial problem going into the marriage. They
problem going into the marriage. They have to disclose
have to disclose their financial background.
their financial background. So, you talk about these five love
So, you talk about these five love languages of money. The mooch, someone
languages of money. The mooch, someone who won't pay for anything,
who won't pay for anything, right?
right? Should I date someone like that?
Should I date someone like that? It's a warning signal. It's a problem.
It's a warning signal. It's a problem. It's a problem. So,
It's a problem. So, or they don't really want you for
or they don't really want you for companionship. They just want you for
companionship. They just want you for financial support.
financial support. The spender holic. Someone who always
The spender holic. Someone who always offers to pay for everything to appear
offers to pay for everything to appear popular and successful.
popular and successful. Bad morning sign. Huge. I mean that
Bad morning sign. Huge. I mean that isn't that is insecurity measurable by
isn't that is insecurity measurable by cash outlay.
cash outlay. The loafer. Someone who has no ambition
The loafer. Someone who has no ambition and drive for money.
and drive for money. A void with extreme prejudice.
A void with extreme prejudice. The thief. Someone who steals.
The thief. Someone who steals. You can have no tolerance for that.
You can have no tolerance for that. And the meanie. A balanced spender who
And the meanie. A balanced spender who lives within their means.
lives within their means. Love that. Marry a meanie. That's it.
Love that. Marry a meanie. That's it. That's That's the Those are the
That's That's the Those are the marriages that last an entire life.
marriages that last an entire life. That's it. That's what you're looking
That's it. That's what you're looking for. That's great advice right there.
for. That's great advice right there. Whatever the book costs, that's that's
Whatever the book costs, that's that's the best value right there. And then ask
the best value right there. And then ask yourself, am I dating one of these or
yourself, am I dating one of these or not? You know, you know, you should talk
not? You know, you know, you should talk about money on the third date. Think
about money on the third date. Think about a date. Think about dating. First
about a date. Think about dating. First date, oh my goodness, this is a really
date, oh my goodness, this is a really interesting person. Um or not, then
interesting person. Um or not, then there's never a second date. second
there's never a second date. second date. I want to learn more. I'm really
date. I want to learn more. I'm really interested. You're going into a third
interested. You're going into a third date. There's something going on.
date. There's something going on. There's something going on. You both
There's something going on. You both want to meet again. That's the first
want to meet again. That's the first time you should say, "Look, I know this
time you should say, "Look, I know this is crazy, but we're here together a
is crazy, but we're here together a third time because something's going on
third time because something's going on here, and I'm just wondering what are
here, and I'm just wondering what are your long-term goals? I mean, it's not
your long-term goals? I mean, it's not about our marriage or anything else
about our marriage or anything else other than we're having a great time,
other than we're having a great time, but what are your ambitions? I'm really
but what are your ambitions? I'm really interested in you. I'd like to know what
interested in you. I'd like to know what you think. And the maybe the woman says
you think. And the maybe the woman says or the guy says, "What are you checking
or the guy says, "What are you checking me out?" You say, "Yeah, yeah, I'm
me out?" You say, "Yeah, yeah, I'm really interested in you." It's a form
really interested in you." It's a form of finding out if the connection, you
of finding out if the connection, you know, I I should be a marriage
know, I I should be a marriage counselor. That's what I think. I mean,
counselor. That's what I think. I mean, it's it's really dating is is the is the
it's it's really dating is is the is the dance, but it should involve exploring
dance, but it should involve exploring where we're going financially.
where we're going financially. For many years, you've probably seen
For many years, you've probably seen this iPad sat in front of me. You've
this iPad sat in front of me. You've probably wondered what's on it. and I'm
probably wondered what's on it. and I'm going to tell you today because they're
going to tell you today because they're now our show sponsor thankfully. It's an
now our show sponsor thankfully. It's an app called GoodNotes and it's where I
app called GoodNotes and it's where I store all of my research, all of my
store all of my research, all of my information, but also where I take notes
information, but also where I take notes in real time when the guest is speaking
in real time when the guest is speaking to me. I love this app because it's so
to me. I love this app because it's so dynamic, but also because of this new
dynamic, but also because of this new feature which is called Ask Goodnotes.
feature which is called Ask Goodnotes. It's basically my AI companion. I can
It's basically my AI companion. I can search the 200 pages sometimes of notes
search the 200 pages sometimes of notes and information that I have in front of
and information that I have in front of me in just seconds. I can type into the
me in just seconds. I can type into the ask goodnotes feature, what was the name
ask goodnotes feature, what was the name of Kevin's mother? I'm speaking to Kevin
of Kevin's mother? I'm speaking to Kevin Olio on the podcast. He starts talking
Olio on the podcast. He starts talking about his mother. I have a couple of
about his mother. I have a couple of seconds to figure out what she's called
seconds to figure out what she's called so I can ask him a question about her in
so I can ask him a question about her in a polite way. Ask GoodNotes looks
a polite way. Ask GoodNotes looks through all of my notes, responds back
through all of my notes, responds back to me in seconds. If you're someone that
to me in seconds. If you're someone that loves taking notes, but your notes are a
loves taking notes, but your notes are a mess and you can't read your own
mess and you can't read your own handwriting, i.e. me, I think GoodNotes
handwriting, i.e. me, I think GoodNotes might be the solution for you. and ask
might be the solution for you. and ask GoodNotes, which is their new AI
GoodNotes, which is their new AI feature, might just be the tool that
feature, might just be the tool that turns you into an organized person.
turns you into an organized person. That's certainly how it feels for me.
That's certainly how it feels for me. So, I asked GoodNotes if they would give
So, I asked GoodNotes if they would give my listeners a 30-day free trial to try
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I've built companies from scratch and backed many more. And there's a blind
backed many more. And there's a blind spot that I keep seeing in early stage
spot that I keep seeing in early stage founders. They spend very little time
founders. They spend very little time thinking about HR. And it's not because
thinking about HR. And it's not because they're reckless or they don't care.
they're reckless or they don't care. It's because they're obsessed with
It's because they're obsessed with building their companies, and I can't
building their companies, and I can't fault them for that. At that stage,
fault them for that. At that stage, you're thinking about the product. How
you're thinking about the product. How to attract new customers, how to grow
to attract new customers, how to grow your team, really, how to survive. and
your team, really, how to survive. and HR slips down the list because it
HR slips down the list because it doesn't feel urgent, but sooner or later
doesn't feel urgent, but sooner or later it is. And when things get messy, tools
it is. And when things get messy, tools like our sponsor today, Just Works, go
like our sponsor today, Just Works, go from being a nice to have to being a
from being a nice to have to being a necessity. Something goes sideways, and
necessity. Something goes sideways, and you find yourself having conversations
you find yourself having conversations you did not see coming. This is when you
you did not see coming. This is when you learn that HR really is the
learn that HR really is the infrastructure of your company, and
infrastructure of your company, and without it, things wobble. And Just Work
without it, things wobble. And Just Work stops you learning this the hard way. It
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One of the big uh protagonists in the story of many things we've discussed,
story of many things we've discussed, money, investing, building businesses
money, investing, building businesses now is this thing called artificial
now is this thing called artificial intelligence which you mentioned
intelligence which you mentioned earlier. Yes.
earlier. Yes. It's like entered the room.
It's like entered the room. Yes.
Yes. And it's changing lots of these
And it's changing lots of these equations in a really profound way.
equations in a really profound way. Again, for that person who is maybe at
Again, for that person who is maybe at the start of their career or even, you
the start of their career or even, you know, they're they're a lawyer right
know, they're they're a lawyer right now.
now. How are you thinking about AI? What
How are you thinking about AI? What should they be thinking about? Because I
should they be thinking about? Because I don't think we've seen something quite
don't think we've seen something quite like this. Not certainly not in my
like this. Not certainly not in my lifetime. I've not seen disruption of
lifetime. I've not seen disruption of this scale. I wasn't around for the com
this scale. I wasn't around for the com boom. I was too when I was 10 or
boom. I was too when I was 10 or something. I was eight.
something. I was eight. Yeah.
Yeah. So, so how should we be thinking about
So, so how should we be thinking about this moment? Is it a huge opportunity
this moment? Is it a huge opportunity for wealth creation or
for wealth creation or Yeah, it's immense. It's bigger than the
Yeah, it's immense. It's bigger than the internet. And I'll tell you why. I want
internet. And I'll tell you why. I want to keep it down to earth. Uh because um
to keep it down to earth. Uh because um I'm actually using it now in use cases.
I'm actually using it now in use cases. There's every sector of the economy,
There's every sector of the economy, every aspect of research, every aspect
every aspect of research, every aspect of business has a huge opportunity here.
of business has a huge opportunity here. But let's just take use cases that you
But let's just take use cases that you would understand, everybody listening
would understand, everybody listening would understand.
would understand. In today's post pandemic world,
In today's post pandemic world, most businesses have developed large and
most businesses have developed large and small direct to consumer strategies
small direct to consumer strategies where they try and build relationships
where they try and build relationships with customers and sell them product
with customers and sell them product direct. Yeah, they still use retail. Say
direct. Yeah, they still use retail. Say you're Nike or something. And um you you
you're Nike or something. And um you you were 27% uh you know direct to consumer
were 27% uh you know direct to consumer before the pandemic. You're now 50%. And
before the pandemic. You're now 50%. And direct to consumer gets you higher
direct to consumer gets you higher margins, but it also gets you data. Gets
margins, but it also gets you data. Gets you information about the preferences of
you information about the preferences of your customer base. What they like, what
your customer base. What they like, what they don't like, the flavors, and what
they don't like, the flavors, and what they buy, when they buy, where they buy
they buy, when they buy, where they buy it, all that stuff. And it's very
it, all that stuff. And it's very interesting that data. And let me give
interesting that data. And let me give you an example. Wine business. If you
you an example. Wine business. If you think about
think about the wine business, the challenge of a
the wine business, the challenge of a thousand-y old business, you don't know
thousand-y old business, you don't know what the weather's going to be like. you
what the weather's going to be like. you don't know what varietals to to to grow
don't know what varietals to to to grow because you don't know what the
because you don't know what the preference of the customer is because
preference of the customer is because you're selling it through multiple tiers
you're selling it through multiple tiers of distribution. During the pandemic, 43
of distribution. During the pandemic, 43 states in America opened up direct to
states in America opened up direct to consumer sales from the wineries in the
consumer sales from the wineries in the West Coast. For the first time ever, the
West Coast. For the first time ever, the wineries found out, what people buy,
wineries found out, what people buy, where they buy it, when they buy it,
where they buy it, when they buy it, what they drink, what varietals. And I'm
what they drink, what varietals. And I'm in the wine business. I sell three
in the wine business. I sell three million bottles a year of wine. One of
million bottles a year of wine. One of my companies, actually, a Shark Tank
my companies, actually, a Shark Tank company. Um, and we partner with a
company. Um, and we partner with a company called uh QVC. We sell online
company called uh QVC. We sell online and and so I can tell you today,
and and so I can tell you today, this month, this week, the number one
this month, this week, the number one varietal in Southern Florida for women
varietal in Southern Florida for women ages 44 to 64 is Mosscato, a sweet wine.
ages 44 to 64 is Mosscato, a sweet wine. I think it tastes like [ __ ] I don't
I think it tastes like [ __ ] I don't care what I think. It's the number one
care what I think. It's the number one wine right now. And I knew that to to
wine right now. And I knew that to to make that varietal available six months
make that varietal available six months ago so that I would be able to ship it
ago so that I would be able to ship it and put the inventory, the capex in the
and put the inventory, the capex in the right place at the right time to support
right place at the right time to support that demand for the rest of this summer.
that demand for the rest of this summer. A sweet cold Mosscato wine. That means I
A sweet cold Mosscato wine. That means I spent a lot less money, a lot less risk.
spent a lot less money, a lot less risk. I don't have any varietals they don't
I don't have any varietals they don't want this summer. I have exactly what
want this summer. I have exactly what they want. That was AI.
they want. That was AI. It cost me virtually nothing to get that
It cost me virtually nothing to get that data. Five, 10 years ago, it would have
data. Five, 10 years ago, it would have cost me a million bucks to go do all the
cost me a million bucks to go do all the market research. I got that for $18,000.
market research. I got that for $18,000. So that's using an AI tool. Here's
So that's using an AI tool. Here's another example. So do I use that tool?
another example. So do I use that tool? 100%. And there's many tools. You don't
100%. And there's many tools. You don't have to just use chat. There's many
have to just use chat. There's many different competing platforms. So we use
different competing platforms. So we use them all. We check the assumptions by
them all. We check the assumptions by checking it all on all of them. See the
checking it all on all of them. See the little variances. Number two, I have to
little variances. Number two, I have to shoot an ad. I have to shoot a
shoot an ad. I have to shoot a commercial.
commercial. I'm going to shoot it here in LA. I'm
I'm going to shoot it here in LA. I'm going to do it in a studio like this
going to do it in a studio like this with a green screen. And um I'm going to
with a green screen. And um I'm going to spend, you know, $250,000 for a 30, you
spend, you know, $250,000 for a 30, you know, 15, a 30, and a 60 out of the same
know, 15, a 30, and a 60 out of the same shoot. And I'm then going to go into
shoot. And I'm then going to go into post with the green screen and I'm going
post with the green screen and I'm going to spend more money in post. I'm going
to spend more money in post. I'm going to add whatever I need, whatever
to add whatever I need, whatever background I'm going to need. Or I could
background I'm going to need. Or I could fly to Dubai
fly to Dubai where they have a giant studio with a 6K
where they have a giant studio with a 6K digital wall
digital wall where AI links up your script
where AI links up your script to the background. There is no
to the background. There is no post-prouction. You basically shoot the
post-prouction. You basically shoot the commercial
commercial in 4 hours and it's done. The
in 4 hours and it's done. The background's perfect. The imagery is
background's perfect. The imagery is perfect. Your script is perfect. And I
perfect. Your script is perfect. And I did that two weeks ago for the first
did that two weeks ago for the first time. I'd never seen that before. We did
time. I'd never seen that before. We did it for a fraction of the cost of what it
it for a fraction of the cost of what it would have cost to do it in the old way
would have cost to do it in the old way in post-prouction. But then I'll tell
in post-prouction. But then I'll tell you what freaked me out.
you what freaked me out. They reshot the commercial without me
They reshot the commercial without me there using Kevin agent
there using Kevin agent an AI view.
an AI view. I wasn't even there. and just to show
I wasn't even there. and just to show that they could produce a new commercial
that they could produce a new commercial with the same background
with the same background for $9,000
for $9,000 that would have cost 400,000 from
that would have cost 400,000 from scratch. So there's going to be a lot of
scratch. So there's going to be a lot of job disruption then because as you said
job disruption then because as you said you don't say but on the other hand I've
you don't say but on the other hand I've now got content for that particular
now got content for that particular business I was shooting that you know
business I was shooting that you know I've got content for that particular
I've got content for that particular business I was going to shoot that
business I was going to shoot that commercial for and I said guys
commercial for and I said guys let's tweak it and shoot it again. He
let's tweak it and shoot it again. He said yeah we'll do it in two seconds.
said yeah we'll do it in two seconds. We'll send you the the 15 seconds back.
We'll send you the the 15 seconds back. I said I I I don't like what I said
I said I I I don't like what I said there. Can I change what I said? Yeah.
there. Can I change what I said? Yeah. Well do you want it in Spanish? You want
Well do you want it in Spanish? You want it in Japanese? You want it in Arabic?
it in Japanese? You want it in Arabic? That's the power. The productivity that
That's the power. The productivity that we're going to get, we're going to our
we're going to get, we're going to our budgets for producing content are going
budgets for producing content are going to drop dramatically over the next
to drop dramatically over the next and software and everything else, right?
and software and everything else, right? Creating everything is going to get
Creating everything is going to get Now, full circle to your your thing
Now, full circle to your your thing about the chips that all came from
about the chips that all came from Nvidia chips
Nvidia chips that not that's not from Chinese chips.
that not that's not from Chinese chips. Whoever controls the chip and the
Whoever controls the chip and the honeybees that the honey bees are those
honeybees that the honey bees are those guys are all Indians and Pakistanis.
guys are all Indians and Pakistanis. They're genius mathematicians. That's
They're genius mathematicians. That's the team over there running off that
the team over there running off that platform. If we had let anyways I don't
platform. If we had let anyways I don't want to I'm just freaked out that we got
want to I'm just freaked out that we got to control that. We we need democracy to
to control that. We we need democracy to control that.
control that. Your children, what are you saying to
Your children, what are you saying to them though about their professional
them though about their professional ambitions in a world where creating
ambitions in a world where creating stuff like that and you know whether
stuff like that and you know whether it's who do you want to do your your
it's who do you want to do your your taxes an accountant or an AI? Who do you
taxes an accountant or an AI? Who do you want to do your legal documents? Who do
want to do your legal documents? Who do you want to do your any sort of like
you want to do your any sort of like white collar job your make your videos
white collar job your make your videos edit your videos? I I tell them, you
edit your videos? I I tell them, you know, everybody's got a lot of angst
know, everybody's got a lot of angst with AI. I I tell them, listen,
with AI. I I tell them, listen, everybody chillax. It's a tool. You
everybody chillax. It's a tool. You know, it's the same classic thing where
know, it's the same classic thing where radio was going to be displaced by
radio was going to be displaced by television. Radio's bigger than it ever
television. Radio's bigger than it ever has been. It it just it doesn't matter.
has been. It it just it doesn't matter. The one thing I concern myself with with
The one thing I concern myself with with AI is warfare. And I think the country
AI is warfare. And I think the country that has the best AI and data centers
that has the best AI and data centers and the most advanced chip technology
and the most advanced chip technology will win the wars of the future, which
will win the wars of the future, which will be fought by drones and robots. I
will be fought by drones and robots. I know that sounds kind of crazy.
know that sounds kind of crazy. No, it doesn't sound crazy. That's where
No, it doesn't sound crazy. That's where it's happening now.
it's happening now. That's where it's going to go. So, so
That's where it's going to go. So, so when I when I solicit the ear of a
when I when I solicit the ear of a senator, I try and explain to them my
senator, I try and explain to them my honeybee analogy saying this is about
honeybee analogy saying this is about defense. I don't want to live under
defense. I don't want to live under authoritarian. You know, I know we
authoritarian. You know, I know we debate the whole political environment
debate the whole political environment these days, but I don't want to live
these days, but I don't want to live around Chinese honey. I just don't. And
around Chinese honey. I just don't. And those are going to be the two
those are going to be the two superpowers. You both you're in one
superpowers. You both you're in one vertical. Either you let the Chinese
vertical. Either you let the Chinese make the honey on AI or we make the
make the honey on AI or we make the honey and let the Chinese buy some honey
honey and let the Chinese buy some honey from us. I know where I want to live. I
from us. I know where I want to live. I know what I want to do. And I think I
know what I want to do. And I think I can convince a lot of senators the same
can convince a lot of senators the same idea because you got to understand the
idea because you got to understand the Wnjak jobs analogy that we that you
Wnjak jobs analogy that we that you brought out earlier. That was the genius
brought out earlier. That was the genius of jobs. Make the honey but know who the
of jobs. Make the honey but know who the queen bee is.
queen bee is. The genius of jobs brings me to a
The genius of jobs brings me to a question I've wanted to ask someone like
question I've wanted to ask someone like you for a long long time which is do you
you for a long long time which is do you think Apple is dead?
think Apple is dead? No. No you don't.
No. No you don't. No. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you
No. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. You know it's so interesting. uh
why. You know it's so interesting. uh people don't understand the genius of
people don't understand the genius of Apple because this is again came from
Apple because this is again came from Jobs you know he used to say to my team
Jobs you know he used to say to my team over and over again and I mentioned it
over and over again and I mentioned it earlier they don't know what they want
earlier they don't know what they want until I tell them
until I tell them and I always just just as close as you
and I always just just as close as you and I are right now you're Steve
and I are right now you're Steve say Steve
say Steve how the [ __ ] do you know that how do you
how the [ __ ] do you know that how do you know that you don't know that you don't
know that you don't know that you don't know what you don't No. He said, "Show
know what you don't No. He said, "Show me where I'm wrong. Show me one instance
me where I'm wrong. Show me one instance of us working together. I'm wrong." I
of us working together. I'm wrong." I said, "It hasn't happened yet, Steve.
said, "It hasn't happened yet, Steve. Doesn't mean it won't.
Doesn't mean it won't. Get back to work. Don't worry about it.
Get back to work. Don't worry about it. I'll worry about it. You make the
I'll worry about it. You make the software. I have the chips. Make the
software. I have the chips. Make the software. Go make the honey. I have the
software. Go make the honey. I have the queen bee. Don't worry about it." And
queen bee. Don't worry about it." And that
that is pretty interesting because you got to
is pretty interesting because you got to prove it that he was wrong. Let's take
prove it that he was wrong. Let's take let's accelerate. He's dead now. But the
let's accelerate. He's dead now. But the philosophy of Apple and I'll give you
philosophy of Apple and I'll give you the the way you win at you look at it. I
the the way you win at you look at it. I can go buy a $330 laptop right here
can go buy a $330 laptop right here with the same processing power of this
with the same processing power of this $1,800 Mac laptop.
$1,800 Mac laptop. Why would I been spend 1,800 when I
Why would I been spend 1,800 when I could buy this for 300? Why brand? I
could buy this for 300? Why brand? I want to be part of this universe.
want to be part of this universe. This honey right over here, the Apple
This honey right over here, the Apple Care, the fact that the OS works on all
Care, the fact that the OS works on all the platforms and the messages are shown
the platforms and the messages are shown on all platforms simultaneously. All the
on all platforms simultaneously. All the OS, all the honey,
OS, all the honey, that platform is the power of brand.
that platform is the power of brand. It's I'm not leaving this universe and
It's I'm not leaving this universe and Apple is one of the world's largest
Apple is one of the world's largest companies. And you may say, "Oh, an
companies. And you may say, "Oh, an innovation is going to make everybody
innovation is going to make everybody leave that platform." I don't think so.
leave that platform." I don't think so. They let other people sometimes bring in
They let other people sometimes bring in a new market and then they take it over.
a new market and then they take it over. And I saw Steve do that multiple times.
And I saw Steve do that multiple times. He did it um with the phone. I was
He did it um with the phone. I was around for that. That was crazy. I mean,
around for that. That was crazy. I mean, he had the vision that we would someday
he had the vision that we would someday run our software on the phone. I said,
run our software on the phone. I said, "You're out of your mind. The screen's
"You're out of your mind. The screen's too small." He said, "No,
too small." He said, "No, you're going to go vertical. You're
you're going to go vertical. You're going to rewrite all this crap
going to rewrite all this crap vertically."
vertically." I mean, I can't fault him on anything.
I mean, I can't fault him on anything. Although I kept telling him, "You're
Although I kept telling him, "You're going to get it wrong one day. You're
going to get it wrong one day. You're not going to be right all the time." I
not going to be right all the time." I can't find when he wasn't right. That
can't find when he wasn't right. That that's that's the frustration because I
that's that's the frustration because I teach this you know to a har bunch of
teach this you know to a har bunch of really smart kids at Harvard of which by
really smart kids at Harvard of which by the way a third are international
the way a third are international students and
students and they say well when did you catch him? I
they say well when did you catch him? I said he didn't
said he didn't what was he doing was did he have a
what was he doing was did he have a practice or or principles that allowed
practice or or principles that allowed him to see around the corner? He spent a
him to see around the corner? He spent a lot of time at night um
you know even studying fonts and looking at art
even studying fonts and looking at art and um focusing on the signal. I think
and um focusing on the signal. I think his wife talked about that a lot. He I
his wife talked about that a lot. He I mean she spent more time with him than
mean she spent more time with him than anybody else. Although W talks about a
anybody else. Although W talks about a lot because those guys spent countless
lot because those guys spent countless hours together and
hours together and but but
but but Jobs defined
Jobs defined he would take
he would take instances from nature
instances from nature into his head or from Japanese,
into his head or from Japanese, you know, scripture or text or imagery
you know, scripture or text or imagery and redefine it into technology in a way
and redefine it into technology in a way that no one else was doing. And that's
that no one else was doing. And that's the idea of the honey and the bee and
the idea of the honey and the bee and the queen and all that stuff. It kind of
the queen and all that stuff. It kind of comes from his view of the world. And I
comes from his view of the world. And I don't know if you can understand this,
don't know if you can understand this, but because it was so
but because it was so it came from nature, it was easy for
it came from nature, it was easy for people to assimilate it. It wasn't
people to assimilate it. It wasn't foreign. When they looked at the imagery
foreign. When they looked at the imagery and the design, he he tried to pull from
and the design, he he tried to pull from from pleasing images from nature like
from pleasing images from nature like the fonts on the first Max. I remember
the fonts on the first Max. I remember when we were writing the code for that
when we were writing the code for that saying, "Steve, this is not what people
saying, "Steve, this is not what people are used to seeing on a computer
are used to seeing on a computer screen." He said, "No, it isn't. That's
screen." He said, "No, it isn't. That's why it's going to work." He, if you
why it's going to work." He, if you think about the very first scalable
think about the very first scalable fonts,
fonts, I saw that first. And I said, "See, this
I saw that first. And I said, "See, this is this is almost foreign." He said,
is this is almost foreign." He said, "Well, how's it make you feel?" I said,
"Well, how's it make you feel?" I said, "Makes me feel pretty good. This looks
"Makes me feel pretty good. This looks like it's on a piece of paper. If you I
like it's on a piece of paper. If you I don't you weren't even born when this
don't you weren't even born when this stuff was happening but it was it he was
stuff was happening but it was it he was so far ahead
so far ahead and this is the same way Elon is
and this is the same way Elon is redefining whether it's you know SpaceX
redefining whether it's you know SpaceX or whether it's what he's doing in
or whether it's what he's doing in neurosurgery or Tesla or you know all of
neurosurgery or Tesla or you know all of these initiatives uh you know his
these initiatives uh you know his satellite technologies they are the same
satellite technologies they are the same those guys except you know Elon's 100%
those guys except you know Elon's 100% signal I said that earlier they are the
signal I said that earlier they are the same and they should be their treasures,
same and they should be their treasures, their national treasures. It doesn't
their national treasures. It doesn't matter if you like them. It doesn't
matter if you like them. It doesn't matter what their politics are is
matter what their politics are is irrelevant the contributions they're
irrelevant the contributions they're making to society and to America,
making to society and to America, frankly, and the competitive competitive
frankly, and the competitive competitive nature of of of countries. That's why I
nature of of of countries. That's why I thought it was so important that Trump
thought it was so important that Trump make up with Elon. The the most powerful
make up with Elon. The the most powerful man on earth should have a a very good
man on earth should have a a very good relationship with the most the richest
relationship with the most the richest man on earth because he's the largest
man on earth because he's the largest industrialist on earth. Maybe there's
industrialist on earth. Maybe there's like an inherent inability by way of
like an inherent inability by way of them being who you just said they are
them being who you just said they are the most powerful.
the most powerful. But they know they're smart enough to
But they know they're smart enough to know. It's the same way I felt about
know. It's the same way I felt about Jobs. I'm getting back on the plane this
Jobs. I'm getting back on the plane this quarter. I know he's going to beat me
quarter. I know he's going to beat me up, but it doesn't matter. It It's the
up, but it doesn't matter. It It's the greater good is that we get this
greater good is that we get this software out there advancing ma math and
software out there advancing ma math and reading scores.
reading scores. Was he happy, Steve?
Was he happy, Steve? I don't know the answer to that
I don't know the answer to that question.
question. Do you think he was a happy person?
Do you think he was a happy person? I don't know. He I've never I never saw
I don't know. He I've never I never saw him happy. He was always barking at me.
him happy. He was always barking at me. I never saw him happy. I don't think I
I never saw him happy. I don't think I ever saw him laugh.
ever saw him laugh. I don't He may not have been, you know,
I don't He may not have been, you know, that I mean that's probably something
that I mean that's probably something his wife would know, but he looked like
his wife would know, but he looked like a tortured guy to me, but um
a tortured guy to me, but um you know that may have been his curse. I
you know that may have been his curse. I you know some some you
you know some some you do you love him?
do you love him? Yeah,
Yeah, I can see it in your face
I can see it in your face 100%. I saw a lot of emotion in your
100%. I saw a lot of emotion in your face the first time you spoke about him
face the first time you spoke about him and I thought that's surprising for
and I thought that's surprising for someone that barked at you.
someone that barked at you. Well, he respected me, that's for sure.
Well, he respected me, that's for sure. He wouldn't execute on my ideas. He
He wouldn't execute on my ideas. He expected me to execute on his, but he
expected me to execute on his, but he was never wrong.
was never wrong. Where did the emotions stem from?
Where did the emotions stem from? Oh, you know, it brings me back into
Oh, you know, it brings me back into that room with Heidi Rosen and all the
that room with Heidi Rosen and all the crazy crap. I mean, it was just nuts.
crazy crap. I mean, it was just nuts. And you know, the you know, I'd have to
And you know, the you know, I'd have to spend a lot of time. The only the only
spend a lot of time. The only the only meeting I really remember um the the one
meeting I really remember um the the one that's really sticks in my mind when we
that's really sticks in my mind when we were in Certino and we were just I think
were in Certino and we were just I think I don't know we were going after him for
I don't know we were going after him for 18 million or something and Heidi was
18 million or something and Heidi was there.
there. Who's Heidi? Heidi Rosen. Um, she's a
Who's Heidi? Heidi Rosen. Um, she's a famous um, venture capitalist, but she
famous um, venture capitalist, but she was also kind of the muse, the person
was also kind of the muse, the person that could actually deal with Jobs all
that could actually deal with Jobs all day long at Apple and bring him back to
day long at Apple and bring him back to Earth when he was out of his mind. I'll
Earth when he was out of his mind. I'll give you an example of how that would
give you an example of how that would work. And I've seen her since, you know,
work. And I've seen her since, you know, it's it's it's I don't even know if she
it's it's it's I don't even know if she remembers this particular. Anyways, we
remembers this particular. Anyways, we leave. He's barking at me. He's and he's
leave. He's barking at me. He's and he's got one of my product managers in tears
got one of my product managers in tears because she wanted to do the market
because she wanted to do the market research and he said, "No way. I we're
research and he said, "No way. I we're just going to do what I say." And she
just going to do what I say." And she just felt like her job was useless. And
just felt like her job was useless. And and for him it was. I mean, he just
and for him it was. I mean, he just didn't give a [ __ ] what she thought.
didn't give a [ __ ] what she thought. Although she ran the universe of the
Although she ran the universe of the Oregon Trail or something. It's a
Oregon Trail or something. It's a massive title, like a huge multi-million
massive title, like a huge multi-million dollar title on the Mac in every 110,000
dollar title on the Mac in every 110,000 schools in America.
schools in America. And he he was so pissed that you know in
And he he was so pissed that you know in these old buildings they have the little
these old buildings they have the little window where you have a little knob and
window where you have a little knob and it only opens up four inches so you
it only opens up four inches so you can't jump out of it in a hotel or
can't jump out of it in a hotel or something. So we were we had a Herz
something. So we were we had a Herz rental and we're the whole team's going
rental and we're the whole team's going out. I'm going to drive the car back to
out. I'm going to drive the car back to San Francisco. I'm going to fly back to
San Francisco. I'm going to fly back to Boston and he he undoes the window and
Boston and he he undoes the window and he's got his head stuck and there's
he's got his head stuck and there's yelling at me from from
I'm looking up at him saying, you know, what the [ __ ] Like what? Like what what
what the [ __ ] Like what? Like what what more can we we you already kicked us
more can we we you already kicked us out, you know? And then on the way, we
out, you know? And then on the way, we had these old brick the earliest cell
had these old brick the earliest cell phones, these brick phones. Heidi calls
phones, these brick phones. Heidi calls me, says, "Okay, he'll do it for 12
me, says, "Okay, he'll do it for 12 million." I said, "Heidi, why do we have
million." I said, "Heidi, why do we have to go through all that [ __ ] Like, why
to go through all that [ __ ] Like, why do we even have to get abused?" She
do we even have to get abused?" She said, "Why is the sky blue?" you know,
said, "Why is the sky blue?" you know, just get back on the plane and go do it.
just get back on the plane and go do it. It was a huge hit. Like it just, you
It was a huge hit. Like it just, you know, it's a huge hit. Like it's just
know, it's a huge hit. Like it's just the guy was if you looked at it like uh
the guy was if you looked at it like uh he he he could he could write the hit
he he he could he could write the hit songs. That's what he did. He write the
songs. That's what he did. He write the hit songs. So you don't even if you hate
hit songs. So you don't even if you hate the producer, you want the the guy that
the producer, you want the the guy that can do the hit songs, right? If you're
can do the hit songs, right? If you're an artist, you put up with a crazy
an artist, you put up with a crazy producer.
producer. Could he not have been nice? Do you
Could he not have been nice? Do you think?
think? Not in his DNA.
Not in his DNA. No. Do you think if he he was a nice
No. Do you think if he he was a nice person he wouldn't
person he wouldn't you know what he would say about that
you know what he would say about that that's noise
that's noise he gives a [ __ ]
he gives a [ __ ] yeah he doesn't give a [ __ ] noise being
yeah he doesn't give a [ __ ] noise being nice is noise that for him I mean we
nice is noise that for him I mean we spent a lot of time talking about him
spent a lot of time talking about him but I think there's a lot of lessons
but I think there's a lot of lessons learned from him that I think managers
learned from him that I think managers today parents today certainly CEOs today
today parents today certainly CEOs today uh you know you're you're about this
uh you know you're you're about this show is about CEOs um
show is about CEOs um I wish every CEO had spent the time the
I wish every CEO had spent the time the minimal time that I spent with jobs had
minimal time that I spent with jobs had such an impact on me. I mean, it it I I
such an impact on me. I mean, it it I I I owe a lot of my success to him because
I owe a lot of my success to him because I think I always think, what would Steve
I think I always think, what would Steve have done?
have done? And I make decisions like that. It's
And I make decisions like that. It's amazing. The guy's still around. I bet
amazing. The guy's still around. I bet you if you talk to, you know, any of the
you if you talk to, you know, any of the management at Apple, they they have that
management at Apple, they they have that ghost in those rooms for sure,
including the current CEO who I think was doing a phenomenal job. He he spent
was doing a phenomenal job. He he spent so many hours with Jobs. He knows
so many hours with Jobs. He knows exactly what I'm talking about.
exactly what I'm talking about. Nobody spent more time in business than
Nobody spent more time in business than that guy for sure.
that guy for sure. I asked you a second ago if Steve Jobs
I asked you a second ago if Steve Jobs was happy, but are you happy?
was happy, but are you happy? I get happier the older I get because um
I get happier the older I get because um I've I'm very comfortable. I found a
I've I'm very comfortable. I found a place um you know uh that I'm and I this
place um you know uh that I'm and I this may be just what aging does. I mean, it
may be just what aging does. I mean, it just, you know, in and when I was in my
just, you know, in and when I was in my 30s, I had a lot of trauma and turmoil
30s, I had a lot of trauma and turmoil and and just, you know, um hard time to
and and just, you know, um hard time to find trying to figure out who I was. And
find trying to figure out who I was. And I also suffered from dyslexia, which
I also suffered from dyslexia, which I've come to think of as a superpower
I've come to think of as a superpower now, not an affliction, but it it was
now, not an affliction, but it it was kind of like it's hard to know what
kind of like it's hard to know what journey you're going to be on until you
journey you're going to be on until you find it. And then I found it, and then I
find it. And then I found it, and then I started on a new journey. and and
started on a new journey. and and you know it's um
it's something where you know you ask yourself every day goes by and you know
yourself every day goes by and you know this the noise and signal thing and how
this the noise and signal thing and how much of this day was I happy doing the
much of this day was I happy doing the things that I wanted to do and I am very
things that I wanted to do and I am very happy if if I measure it by
happy if if I measure it by is there anything that I spend my time
is there anything that I spend my time doing that I don't want to do today the
doing that I don't want to do today the answer is no because I don't have do and
answer is no because I don't have do and so I don't waste my time. I do, you
so I don't waste my time. I do, you know, even coming here to spend two
know, even coming here to spend two hours with you. When I first, you know,
hours with you. When I first, you know, heard about it, I went online and said,
heard about it, I went online and said, "Oh, yeah. This guy, this guy's great.
"Oh, yeah. This guy, this guy's great. I'd love to work with him." You know,
I'd love to work with him." You know, that kind of thing.
that kind of thing. You you allocate your time. This is this
You you allocate your time. This is this is I'm happy to do this. I want to be
is I'm happy to do this. I want to be here. And I think, you know, we had a
here. And I think, you know, we had a very interesting couple hours together.
very interesting couple hours together. But that's the definition of happiness.
But that's the definition of happiness. What concerns me, and my wife often says
What concerns me, and my wife often says to me, "We don't need any more money.
to me, "We don't need any more money. Why are why are you flying 300 hours a
Why are why are you flying 300 hours a year on an airplane? What are you
year on an airplane? What are you doing?"
doing?" I said, "I'm happy." Like,
I said, "I'm happy." Like, you know, I'm I'm happy doing this. I
you know, I'm I'm happy doing this. I want to do this stuff. You know, I
want to do this stuff. You know, I sometimes I do five cities in a day.
sometimes I do five cities in a day. It's freaking crazy. And it's the
It's freaking crazy. And it's the wonderful thing about, you know, air
wonderful thing about, you know, air travel today. You can do that. But it's
travel today. You can do that. But it's it's sport for you. It's it's it's so
it's sport for you. It's it's it's so interesting. I get so many interesting
interesting. I get so many interesting opportunities. I can't turn them down.
opportunities. I can't turn them down. They're just such,
They're just such, you know.
you know. Are you driven or are you dragged? You
Are you driven or are you dragged? You know, you use the word trauma there. And
know, you use the word trauma there. And I often ask myself that question because
I often ask myself that question because I I came from a all-white area. I was
I I came from a all-white area. I was the black kid with the strange hair and
the black kid with the strange hair and the strange family. I was insecure. And
the strange family. I was insecure. And I think that resulted in this this force
I think that resulted in this this force of will to try and correct the
of will to try and correct the insecurity or to prove something to
insecurity or to prove something to myself which then resulted in success. I
myself which then resulted in success. I I think there is no drag. There's only
I think there is no drag. There's only driven. I don't understand being
driven. I don't understand being dragged. Dragged insinuates that you
dragged. Dragged insinuates that you don't care about performance. You don't
don't care about performance. You don't care whether you succeed or not. You're
care whether you succeed or not. You're just being sucked into the void of
just being sucked into the void of success. You might be able to say that
success. You might be able to say that for a rock star that gets a hit song,
for a rock star that gets a hit song, but um most of them doesn't last. I you
but um most of them doesn't last. I you need massive amounts of of drive. And I
need massive amounts of of drive. And I love the most the most exciting thing I
love the most the most exciting thing I like to do is when someone tells me
like to do is when someone tells me you can't do that like watch insurance.
you can't do that like watch insurance. You will never launch a watch insurance
You will never launch a watch insurance company. It you will never do that. You
company. It you will never do that. You will never get around the compliance
will never get around the compliance state by state. You will never launch in
state by state. You will never launch in the Middle East. You'll never launch in
the Middle East. You'll never launch in England. [ __ ] That's exactly what I
England. [ __ ] That's exactly what I did. I found the right team. I found the
did. I found the right team. I found the right partners. I figured it out. I I
right partners. I figured it out. I I was passionate about it. And I think I'm
was passionate about it. And I think I'm going to kick ass. I think I'm I think
going to kick ass. I think I'm I think in two or three years from now you won't
in two or three years from now you won't be able to catch up with me. That's what
be able to catch up with me. That's what I think.
I think. I'm 32 years old. What What is the
I'm 32 years old. What What is the advice that you wish you got at 32 years
advice that you wish you got at 32 years old? Kevin,
old? Kevin, what I have learned and this is
what I have learned and this is something that you should really think
something that you should really think about for yourself.
Your real value, your real brand are your followers. this army of people
are your followers. this army of people that have decided to invest their time
that have decided to invest their time in you. You know, you've cut across a a
in you. You know, you've cut across a a vast swath of people. So you influence
very successful managers, CEOs, and a lot of young entrepreneurs want to hear
lot of young entrepreneurs want to hear what you have to say because they
what you have to say because they they're expecting you to deliver
they're expecting you to deliver valuable information
valuable information across
across multiple sectors and you also have your
multiple sectors and you also have your own data, but men and women. And so
own data, but men and women. And so where do you take that? Because you know
where do you take that? Because you know it's do you want to launch a clothing
it's do you want to launch a clothing line? Do you want to sell burgers? Do
line? Do you want to sell burgers? Do you want to do consulting? You know,
you want to do consulting? You know, it's it's you have all those
it's it's you have all those opportunities, but what fits your brand?
opportunities, but what fits your brand? And so,
And so, I have and you'll get to do this. You'll
I have and you'll get to do this. You'll get to do this. You'll be approached by
get to do this. You'll be approached by a lot of people that want to ride that
a lot of people that want to ride that network you've built. And my advice to
network you've built. And my advice to you is
you is because this has really worked for me.
because this has really worked for me. Is is this a product or service that I
Is is this a product or service that I personally would use that I would
personally would use that I would actually use?
actually use? Because you'll get offered a lot of
Because you'll get offered a lot of money to talk about one brand or another
money to talk about one brand or another brand. They will. And you may be weak
brand. They will. And you may be weak and take it. But
and take it. But the minute
the minute anybody in your network, in your
anybody in your network, in your community thinks you're not authentic,
community thinks you're not authentic, you're [ __ ]
you're [ __ ] And you know that.
And you know that. Yeah.
Yeah. And so you better be authentic. You
And so you better be authentic. You better be transparent. You better be
better be transparent. You better be honest. Even when turmoil hits, whatever
honest. Even when turmoil hits, whatever it's going to be, I found that saved my
it's going to be, I found that saved my ass so many times by just saying,
ass so many times by just saying, "Here's what I know. Here's what
"Here's what I know. Here's what happened." And that actually bonds them
happened." And that actually bonds them even closer to you. And and that's
even closer to you. And and that's that's the difficulty you're going to
that's the difficulty you're going to have is how much do you want to take ne
have is how much do you want to take ne because you're going to have that
because you're going to have that opportunity. But if you stay authentic
opportunity. But if you stay authentic and say I'm going to do I'm going to
and say I'm going to do I'm going to support this brand because I use it.
support this brand because I use it. Every single brand or commission I have
Every single brand or commission I have in supporting a business I use myself.
in supporting a business I use myself. I'm a shareholder in it and I believe in
I'm a shareholder in it and I believe in it and I use the product or you know
it and I use the product or you know whatever like the wines I make myself
whatever like the wines I make myself with my wife we drink them at our family
with my wife we drink them at our family and everybody knows that. So you
and everybody knows that. So you if it's I wouldn't drink it if it's [ __ ]
if it's I wouldn't drink it if it's [ __ ] wine. Yeah.
wine. Yeah. So it's it's sort of like
So it's it's sort of like that's my advice to you because I meet a
that's my advice to you because I meet a lot of people but you're very rare. you
lot of people but you're very rare. you what you've built maybe by
what you've built maybe by happen chance that it occurred. Whatever
happen chance that it occurred. Whatever alchemy occurred, you have it now. It's
alchemy occurred, you have it now. It's yours to lose. Don't [ __ ] it up.
No, everything you said is so true. And um obviously the things that I uh the
um obviously the things that I uh the things that we talk about in the show in
things that we talk about in the show in terms of brands that I promote, pretty
terms of brands that I promote, pretty much all of them I've invested my own
much all of them I've invested my own money into. Yeah.
money into. Yeah. And this is like super important. So I
And this is like super important. So I talked about my Whoop. Yeah.
talked about my Whoop. Yeah. Um,
Um, if you look at the investments I have
if you look at the investments I have and the things I talk about, there's a
and the things I talk about, there's a really clear through line through them.
really clear through line through them. So, there's a really clear through and
So, there's a really clear through and it's actually reflective of just where I
it's actually reflective of just where I am in my life. There's actually a
am in my life. There's actually a sponsor I used to have on the show that
sponsor I used to have on the show that I was very big on. And I just stopped um
I was very big on. And I just stopped um I stopped consuming the product. They
I stopped consuming the product. They offered me £6 million
offered me £6 million which is about what $8 million to
which is about what $8 million to continue for another year and a half.
continue for another year and a half. And I said like it just wouldn't I'm
And I said like it just wouldn't I'm about to basically start
about to basically start um
um talking about and investing in the
talking about and investing in the antithesis of what you do.
antithesis of what you do. Yeah. So, I had to turn down that $7
Yeah. So, I had to turn down that $7 million, which is a lot of money for
million, which is a lot of money for anybody.
anybody. Yeah.
Yeah. But it's because my life shifted and I
But it's because my life shifted and I shifted in a different direction. People
shifted in a different direction. People don't see those things. They they don't
don't see those things. They they don't see that the this foreign government
see that the this foreign government comes along and offers you $4 million to
comes along and offers you $4 million to go and talk about their country or to go
go and talk about their country or to go do the dario in their country. They
do the dario in their country. They don't see those decisions that you make.
don't see those decisions that you make. But I think hopefully if you listen to
But I think hopefully if you listen to me long enough, you'll see a through
me long enough, you'll see a through line between the things that are
line between the things that are authentic to me.
authentic to me. Yeah. And I think that so you've already
Yeah. And I think that so you've already figured it out. And the other thing that
figured it out. And the other thing that I would do and say anybody your age and
I would do and say anybody your age and because I wish I'd done it is start
because I wish I'd done it is start focusing on longevity in your 30s. Start
focusing on longevity in your 30s. Start thinking about what you eat and what you
thinking about what you eat and what you drink and how much sleep you do and how
drink and how much sleep you do and how much exercise you have. You're you could
much exercise you have. You're you could live to 120 years old. I mean
live to 120 years old. I mean crazy,
crazy, you know, it's sort of if if you
you know, it's sort of if if you understand if you're wearing a whoop,
understand if you're wearing a whoop, you know what I'm talking about. It's
you know what I'm talking about. It's sort of I am very very uh focused on
sort of I am very very uh focused on what I do and exercise and what I eat
what I do and exercise and what I eat and all that. Um, but uh that makes you
and all that. Um, but uh that makes you feel healthier and more and just better
feel healthier and more and just better about the your day as you go through it.
about the your day as you go through it. But the fact that you figured that out
But the fact that you figured that out at your age because most people your age
at your age because most people your age would have taken the 7 million pounds or
would have taken the 7 million pounds or whatever it was, that would have been a
whatever it was, that would have been a huge mistake because now the next
huge mistake because now the next product that you do endorse, I will know
product that you do endorse, I will know with certainty that you use it because
with certainty that you use it because you told me this.
you told me this. We have a closing tradition on this
We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a
podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing
question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the
who they're leaving it for. And the question that was left for you, funnily
question that was left for you, funnily enough, I feel like I might have asked
enough, I feel like I might have asked it, is where do you believe happiness
it, is where do you believe happiness really comes from?
You know, I think the answer is very simple. Consistently achieving your
simple. Consistently achieving your goals because happiness is not a
goals because happiness is not a destination. It's a journey. That's what
destination. It's a journey. That's what it is.
it is. So you have to set those goals whether
So you have to set those goals whether it's noise to signal going full circle.
it's noise to signal going full circle. talked about or long-term, whatever it
talked about or long-term, whatever it is, it's consistently achieving those
is, it's consistently achieving those goals, you will be happy. Consistently
goals, you will be happy. Consistently not achieving them, you'll be unhappy
not achieving them, you'll be unhappy because it is not
because it is not a destination. Happiness is not a
a destination. Happiness is not a destination ever. It's a mistake that's
destination ever. It's a mistake that's so elusive. I mean,
so elusive. I mean, it's just not a destination. It's a
it's just not a destination. It's a journey. That's it. This is one of the
journey. That's it. This is one of the great things you've taught me today and
great things you've taught me today and reaffirmed for me today is this idea of
reaffirmed for me today is this idea of like signal and noise and radical
like signal and noise and radical prioritization because kind of
prioritization because kind of dovetailing into what we were just
dovetailing into what we were just talking about. When you have a lot of
talking about. When you have a lot of opportunity, it gets even harder, I
opportunity, it gets even harder, I think, to know which ones should be
think, to know which ones should be taking your 18 hours a day. This is
taking your 18 hours a day. This is something I struggle with.
something I struggle with. You should feel it. You know, you're
You should feel it. You know, you're you're kind of a weird dude because
you're kind of a weird dude because you're like a 70-year-old man in a
you're like a 70-year-old man in a 30-year-old body. Like you've got you've
30-year-old body. Like you've got you've got the intellect of of experience,
got the intellect of of experience, which most people don't have at your
which most people don't have at your age. But deals
age. But deals There's a certain feeling that you if if
There's a certain feeling that you if if you should feel that it's a good deal.
you should feel that it's a good deal. It should it should be in your gut. And
It should it should be in your gut. And I've learned this. There's many deals
I've learned this. There's many deals that sound great that when I just do the
that sound great that when I just do the gut check, I don't participate in. They
gut check, I don't participate in. They just don't give me and that came from
just don't give me and that came from experience. But you seem to have that in
experience. But you seem to have that in some weird way to avoid that one we just
some weird way to avoid that one we just talked about. That's it. It's it's it's
talked about. That's it. It's it's it's an intuitive feeling that you generally
an intuitive feeling that you generally get by having a lot of winners and
get by having a lot of winners and losers over time.
losers over time. But you seem to have accelerated that
But you seem to have accelerated that somehow. It's an intuitive nature of
somehow. It's an intuitive nature of where you want to get to and what it's
where you want to get to and what it's going to take to get there. And there's
going to take to get there. And there's going to be sacrifice along the way.
going to be sacrifice along the way. It's never about the money. Never. It's
It's never about the money. Never. It's not about the money. It's, you know,
not about the money. It's, you know, it's do I want to achieve that goal?
You know, I'm having a it's it's just a weird thing because I I had a similar
weird thing because I I had a similar situation just a couple of days ago,
situation just a couple of days ago, you know, when somebody approached me
you know, when somebody approached me and said, "Look, can you get behind this
and said, "Look, can you get behind this and and back it and I'll pay you a ton,
and and back it and I'll pay you a ton, like just a crazy amount of money." And
like just a crazy amount of money." And I thought, "Do I actually want to spend
I thought, "Do I actually want to spend one hour pursuing that?"
one hour pursuing that?" And I went back and said, "Look, um, no.
And I went back and said, "Look, um, no. I I just it's just not interesting. I I
I I just it's just not interesting. I I just I don't I can't see my I can't see
just I don't I can't see my I can't see myself getting involved in that
myself getting involved in that narrative, which was it was a
narrative, which was it was a complicated situation, but
complicated situation, but and then he said, "Look,
and then he said, "Look, how about I give you two and a half% of
how about I give you two and a half% of the company?"
the company?" I said, "No,
I said, "No, I I just don't want to be associated." I
I I just don't want to be associated." I you know, it's just it's the same idea.
you know, it's just it's the same idea. It would intuitively
It would intuitively It was noise.
It was noise. Yeah. And what that would do is some
Yeah. And what that would do is some opportunity you don't know about down
opportunity you don't know about down the future that you you you you pursued
the future that you you you you pursued some goal that somehow tainted your
some goal that somehow tainted your brand and that opportunity never comes
brand and that opportunity never comes to you. You you're you're the you're the
to you. You you're you're the you're the captain of your brand. You got to you
captain of your brand. You got to you have to define yourself right through
have to define yourself right through the journey. It's hard. It's really
the journey. It's hard. It's really hard, you know. It's it's uh
hard, you know. It's it's uh it's really hard. and that and that if
it's really hard. and that and that if if there's going to be a downfall for
if there's going to be a downfall for you, you will have chosen unwisely
you, you will have chosen unwisely somewhere. But it better not be from
somewhere. But it better not be from money. That's there should never be an
money. That's there should never be an amount that you would take because if
amount that you would take because if your gut says no, it doesn't matter what
your gut says no, it doesn't matter what the money is. Not after what you've
the money is. Not after what you've achieved. I mean, you don't need to buy
achieved. I mean, you don't need to buy a guarantee anymore. You got it. I'm
a guarantee anymore. You got it. I'm assuming you've put some away. I mean,
assuming you've put some away. I mean, it's very simple.
it's very simple. If you've got five million bucks in the
If you've got five million bucks in the bank, you can do whatever you want. Now,
bank, you can do whatever you want. Now, I mean, it's may sound I want more, but
I mean, it's may sound I want more, but that is enough under cat. Always have
that is enough under cat. Always have always I have an account that just sits
always I have an account that just sits there with 5 million bucks in it in T
there with 5 million bucks in it in T bills. I never touch it.
bills. I never touch it. That's my nest egg.
That's my nest egg. Kevin, thank you. You go.
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