This content is a presentation and discussion about Stafford Beer's Viable System Model (VSM), explaining its core concepts, components, and practical applications for understanding and improving organizational systems. The presenter emphasizes VSM as a tool for systemic thinking, promoting autonomy while ensuring overall viability.
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um welcome everybody um it's it's Fallen
to me to uh kick things off tonight um
what we've got tonight is actually
pretty pretty interesting um so we had
um Joel last time talking about viable
System model and what happened was I
think he's so passionate that I think he
lost a lot of people along the way and
what we decided to do on based on some
of the feedback was to bring Adam in
actually get a uh to use his special
technique or his special way of actually
getting what a really comp ideas across
to people so they can actually
understand them really well I think
Adam's got a specific skill with it so
hopefully you're in the right
place um okay so welcome to systems at
play as well for those who haven't been
to systems at play before uh welcome to
the new members we've grown quite a bit
we're now at 432 members we still don't
have anybody from Antarctica so if
anybody knows somebody from Antarctica
who' like to join us we'll have all the
continents covered then uh 21 countries
probably more than that now 48 cities at
least so we've got quite a good uh
demographic R all around the world um
why systems at play uh Ali dad M and
myself got really upset with the way
that U things were happening and seeing
all these sort of patterns uh happening
in the places that we work and still
work and we decided Well let's form a
community around actually looking at
things which are more systemic in nature
uh and not just reductionist in nature
in terms of things that that that we
were looking at because what we saw was
a lot of
reductionist thinking about things which
is important reductionist thinking is
important you need it but we don't see
enough actually systemic thinking going
on systems thinking so we started to
explore that and that's how we started
to form a community around this find
like-minded people that's have these
discussions about thing became pretty
much a passion of ours uh since then
we've definitely done a lot of exploring
viable systems models critical systems
gistics systems Dynamics as well uh and
open systems theory which is the thing
where we're most enamored with at the
moment it'll probably be something else
next next to
you uh about
Adam um so Adam has been helping um
leaders since 2012 uh with strategic
organizational space in leadership uh
he's got 25 years of leadership
experience in organizations uh trademark
work engaging expertise with a touch of
humor so if you if you get a chance to
watch some of Adam's videos please do
they they're both they're they're pretty amazing
amazing
um and it's still still I think one of
the dangers about being humorous about
things that you lose the essence Adam
doesn't lose that Essence he does a
really good job of blending the two um
it brings together vast knowledge of
strategic and organizational systems and
people models to create insights and
understanding and probably establishing
his consuling practice he was an
executive at
raaa and work and saw success of senior
leaders in Insurance Finance education
legal Industries both in Australia and
in the UK and he's just a really nice
guy as well
so I hope I hope I've managed to
introduce you well there Adam I know I
was the slide um oh there's
more his informal qualifications are in
more formal qualifications are in
economics and law is qualified blast bar
in sistera in South Australia okay
didn't know that is that true yeah no I
up uh he's got a certificate from
Institute of development coaching and
providing feedback and telling coaching
and Leadership maturity framework
outside of work he has he's busy with
his family uh and his soccer
coordination for his children okay uh he
lives essentially the exact opposite of
the life life of Jason
Bourne it's great cool thanks Adam um
cool access to our videos so we have to
do a little bit of a plug we've got some
quite a few videos of all the sessions
that we've done um M has kicked off the
recordings I think of this one as well I
can't actually see if that's on I'm
guessing that it is can you check that
for me Al
Dad it's on cool okay please make sure
you go and visit some of these we've got
things from um Peter Orton andron who's
on the call today as well I saw Mike
Jackson we had which was amazing uh we
also had Peter Bellinger and we had a
fishbowl with with all sorts of people
um as well making up a lot of of the um
other the speakers that were part of the
the past years that we've been running
so lots of things to to learn from and
and and revisit there for some of us as
well um before we begin uh we will like
like like before we're going to record
this one and we'll make it public via
our YouTube channel um please stay on
mute during the presentation which is
what Adam's asked for but feel free to
put questions into the chat so that we
can uh revisit them when we need to um
if Adam sees something interesting in
the chat or if something actually comes
up we might we might have in a pause
have time to talk to them about it but
really we're going to save most of the
Q&A for the endend okay any questions
start right cool all right over to you
Adam I will stop sharing no worries I'll
get mine mine will pop up in just a
second um it's always an honor to be
talking to a group so thank you very
much for having me and for showing up
because you could have been doing
anything else so I don't take that
lightly that you're here to listen to me
um yeah I've been doing this Consulting
for um about 12 years now um I do
strategy and then help enable
organizations I don't use any one model
um I read lots of them I listen to the
situation and then I like to help my
clients sort of see what's going on
whether it's strategy in terms of where
they are or whether it's in their
organization the viable systems Modelo
is one that I often find myself drawing
up or sort of going through in front of
clients um so the way I describe it um
my level of knowledge um there's
actually there's a guitar in the
background I can play the guitar well
enough to get the group
singing and I know the organizational
models I use well enough that I can get
the group to have discussions and find
their way to where they need to go so so
compared to those at the last one
there's no way I've got that level of
depth of knowledge of it like I'm not a
classical guitarist but I can definitely
play it well enough so that we can start
to use it and so that's why I thought it
might be useful to give a different
angle for me to pop up today and just to
be able to go through my angle of the
viable System model so that's that's the
idea so I'll set off on the journey um
as we was saying collecting comment
collecting questions in the chat is how
I like to do it because that then in
turn lets us go through them again at
the end but if I've said something
that's not clear if it's not so much a
discussion point but more of a hang on
Adam I didn't understand that could you
just do it again please feel free to
interrupt because I'm always trying to
judge the right speed okay viable syst
uh viable systems model Stafford beer so
There's the Man himself Stafford beer um
born in Putney in London there on the
district line um and he was one of the
original he worked in some organizations
he actually was in World War II was in
India for a while um part of that and he
he ended up working in basically how the
systems work then end up in this field
called cybernetics which become very big
through the 50s and through the 60s and
develop various models um stay working
in this field for long enough and you
end up looking like that so that's what
Stafford be looked like towards the end
he actually um I wouldn't say reclusive
but he he got into sort of some
different life styles art and poetry one
of his final books was actually um about
the connecting of all those things
together so officially goes down as a
very interesting dude so that's the work
of Stafford beer that's what the guy
looks like his name was actually Anthony
his middle name was Stafford and he
denounced the name Anthony and he got
his brother whose name was Ian Stafford
to agree to never call himself Stafford
so you kind of know you're dealing with
a different character right from the
start just to show you something that
Stafford beer ended up
with this is the control room in the
country Chile for cyber that he put
together in
1972 as a way to try to coordinate the
work of all the production happening in
the country but in a way that allowed
autonomy to occur within the whole
country at the same time so that lasted
for two or three years and until there
was a political takeover then that sort
of went went apart but I can't resist us
to show this because check it out what
what a setup we're talking 1972 sort of
Technology here so again interesting
sort of character okay where does this
stuff come from just to give you some of
the sources um brain of the firm heart
of the Enterprise diagnosing the system
that they all talk about the same thing
so these these books all have in them
the viable system um knowledge Briner
The Firm talked about viable system over
overall how the Enterprise started
looking at organizations and diagnosing
the system is the howto book it's
written in kind of a casual fun style um
there's like literally drawings in it
and that sort of stuff you might be
pleasantly surprised if you bother to
have a bit of a read through um it's
quite entertaining in a way so that's
the background let's jump in and some of
you will know this stuff already so I
don't dwell on it but for those that of
having an introduction to it what are we
talking about with a viable system
viable system is one that can be viable
it's a of a um circular definition but
it can survive in a particular sort of
environment there's often the idea to
say it can have a separate existence in
other words it's in the environment but
it's coherent it lasts over time and so
therefore a system is viable what's the
viable System model um Anatomy is a word
that we could use it's Stafford beer
putting together his idea of this is the
anatomy these are the bits and pieces
that you will find whenever we have a
system that is viable that's the claim
or the proposition that Stafford be is
putting forward now this is a part where
we say one thing we always know very
well which is the map is not the terrain
and all the rest of it but we always
sort of forget that because when you see
arguments occurring about the viable
System model as if we're arguing about
whether a bridge will stand up or not we
tend to forget it's just a way to help
us get ideas that's all it ever is
because none of this is real in the
sense if you cannot open up an
organization or a person or any sort of
system and see anything I'm about to be
talking about or you can see are the way
in which that stuff appears unlike
physics where you can build a bridge and
you can literally see is that bridge
holding up or is it not so I don't claim
that the viable System model is the
correct one I think it is a way to
access systems thinking I think it is a
model of how systems can work that's
very valid and I think there are lots of
models for how systems work that can be
pretty valid you were mentioning open
systems theory before Dave this is an
example where we can look at an open
system on the other hand it could also
be used as a cloth system so the point I
try to make is don't get caught up
arguing which type of music's the best
type just spot that okay sometimes this
particular type of music is the one that
a given group or yourself need I think
that's the best way to approach that
diagnosis tool though very handy because
it actually gives a tool to see is what
needs to be happening happening how do
you tell if a systems not viable simple
um either customers aren't happy or the
people working in the place aren't happy
or the owners aren't happy that's that's
what we mean when we're talking about a
system of which organizations are one is
not viable doesn't feel right it's not
going right what are we trying to do a
lot of us have heard this expression as
well requisite variety requisite mean as
required by the nature of things so
basically if you're a goalkeeper and
there's two people coming at you two
players two attackers they have two
options they can passable they can do
things there's a certain amount of
variety if there's three of them they
have more variety if there's four of
them coming at you they have more
variety there's more chance they can
come through your defenses as a
goalkeeper if you want to be able to
defend you need to have more variety in
the ways you can defend to handle if
there's more attackers coming towards
you if you're an organization in an
environment with more stuff going on you
need to be able to either have more
stuff going on yourself or attenuate or
adjust the stuff coming towards you so
that you can handle it so one of the
legends of the field uh W Ross Ashby
when the variety of complexity of the
environment exceeds the capacity of a
system the environment will dominate
destroy that system and Stafford beer
comes along and says yeah that's cool or
we can just say only variety can absorb
variety so the viable System model gives
us a way to see whether we do have the
variety we need to be able to handle it
so just hold that Concept in mind and
another concept to hold in mind and when
we talk about the hierarchy thing later
is the concept of recursion so when we
talk about recursion I love this I'm
going to read it out to you the Toronto
recursive history project of Toronto's
recursive history this plot was
commemorated on on October 10 2018 to
commemorate its own commemoration
plaques like this are an a integral part
of the campaign to support more plaques
like this one by reading this plaque
you've made a valuable addition to the
number of people who have read this
plaque to this day and up to the end of
this sentence this plaque continues to
be read by people like yourself so you
can sort of get an idea of recursion
where you'll find the thing inside the
thing very fancy definition here's
another version of it there's a tin look
at the tin that the person's holding
there you will see the same tin with a
person holding the same tin keep going
in keep going in we'll keep finding the
same thing that's recursion so you can
ask yourself is that a hierarchy I
suggest Tru depends on your definition
but that's the sort of stuff we're
talking about when we talk about viable
systems model another one fancy drawing
each branch if you went zoomed in on it
you would see the whole tree so that's
an idea where you keep seeing the same
things and ironically know I know Gear's
part of our here the coast of Norway is
often used as one of the examples of
recursion you can look at the coast of
Norway got a certain shape you zoom in
to a smaller bit oh look at that same
shape you zoom in again same shape you
go all the way into a grain of sand same
shape so that's the concept so I've
banged on about it a bit but it's
important thing with the vial System
model to realize that you can apply it
at any level right down to the level of
an individual human so we've got
recursion and we've spoken about to
absorb variety I want to address one
other thing before I jump into the model
itself and that's is it old school to
which I put this in front of you that's
the prin ofia this is Newton's work this
is the one where he wrote down all the
stuff for equals mass times acceleration
that's in that thing all that sort of
stuff does anyone want to come off mute
if you don't already know and just have
a stab in the dark about what year you
think this came out I'll just be quiet
1830 thank you for putting that out
is 16
87 it's actually there the the text in
the printing yeah it6 I was going to
say XXX VII oh look at that must
be it is 1,56
1,56
1,600 50 787 1687 yeah right brilliant
imagine if they get to 687 Super Bowls
that'll be a tough one to put up there
won't it Super Bowl
1687 so here's the point I like to make
this stuff still works and we know
Einstein come along we know relativity
we know Quantum but none of us are
getting that close to the speed of light
and none of us are getting that close
into quar down at the very microscopic
thing so this stuff still works and the
viable System model is nowhere near as
old is this stuff but just because it's
old school doesn't mean it's still work
now I'm a fan of repackaging old school
stuff to make it more accessible to
people I'm into that I used to be all
they're just repackaging the old stuff
what's the big deal about that but then
I got a bit less immature and realized
if it brings Common Sense stuff forward
it's great and a lot of the viable
System model it's common sense but I
always just like to present that to
people um Shakespeare about 1545 by the
way if you want another freak out about
when things occurred in history it's
always another one I like all right so
this is as simple as it gets Stafford
beer is telling this to us we need to
coordinate what we're doing ensure we're
optimizing allocation of resources check
the things are happening as we expected
have a think about what might need to be
different in the future and remember why
we're bothering in the first place and
you do this we need some
information that's my version of the
viable System model and I don't think
anyone can really argue against that you
might even shrug and say gez that's as
common sense as it gets but that's what
it is and what beer does is he's giv us
what he calls five systems that allow us
to check whether this stuff's happening
now you type viable System model into
anything and you're going to get one of
these and that's why most people's heads
explode which is understandable I know
this back to front and I can even talk
about it because I almost think right
you think I'm not going to get this
watch me try to understand it but for
the more typical human you just look at
that and say that's going to do my head
in what use is that and we quickly move
on which is why I like to do it this way
so jumping into the viable systems model
now you can look at it like this
Stafford beer laid out for us the
requirements for a viable system so if
we change system for organization if we
feel like the organizations feeling a
bit shaky not quite right we can use the
model to say right well at least one of
these requirements isn't happening which
one is it and that can then lead us to
what we can do about it now when we got
together last time I just love this way
of doing it where if you say we've got
an environment there and our little
circle in environment that's us so
that's our system that's existing in its
environment and then check out my
PowerPoint skills we're going to go like
this and now what we have is we've
pulled out the circle and I've put it a
much bigger and alongside that's all
I've done ready backwards forwards
forwards
backwards forwards so that's all I've
done so now the operation and then what
we're going to say is all systems have
some sort of now I'm going to call it
the management function but our brains
straight away now go to management okay
that that's the hierarchy world that we
come from but look at it as the
management function of managing the one
that makes sure that it's doing what we
think it's going to do and that's what
we have we have ourselves the
environment we got the operations and
we've got the management of those
operations and stepid be pulls them into
those three blocks as a way remember
none of this is real it's simply a way
to look at it and there we have it
there's your most basic breakdown for
the sake of being able to map it what do
we have next okay what we're going to do
is we're going to say that we're going
to take the operations and they get
divided into some sort of
subsystems so and that's what we're
going to be calling system
one and if we give it a name we call it
the primary activities of the
organization system one so so far so
good we're going to be breaking down
those primary activities one way or
another so those primary activities they
interact with their particular parts of
the environment can you see how the
diagram starts to bend our heads but if
we start just going at it slowly it can
make sense I'm going to reverse a bit
okay we've got our primary activities
within the organization and they all
interact with their own customer groups
and do the things that they do that's it
primary one system one's the stuff we do
think about your body system one is
going to be heart lungs you know those
actual primary activities that keep the show
show
going okay now we can divide up the
primary activities and this is one of
the the real value ads of the work of
Patrick hstat who I think is one of the
leading people on the planet and lucky
enough a friend and a colleague of mine
in terms of this and he points out that
whenever we're dividing up our primary
activities there's really only four ways
we do it we can do it according to
function we can do it according to
customer we can do it according to geog
or do it ACC according to time so if
you're dividing something by function
that's your classic sales operations
that sort of stuff by customers when
maybe your fundamental division of the
organization is retail and Commercial
geography is your north south and the
rest of it and time can even be which
like you got the day and the night that
one's not as common the point is every
given system is going to have some way
that we divide up our primary activities
because we can't all do it all making sense
sense
cool okay whenever you have subsystems
or people going around doing their thing
they're going to be banging into each
other and annoying each other and
bothering each other and that's why we
need to have a viable system system to
which is simply coordination so while
all the primary activities are happening
we need some way so they don't make each
other angry and getting each other's way
because eventually that wastes resources
and ultimately can pull the whole thing
apart so again pretty straightforward we
got the primary activities that we do
and we coordinate them so they can
actually do it in a way that is funnily enough
enough
coordinated if you're detecting a real
lack of Genius here I'm succeeding
because the genius is being able to put
it together and being able to use it
it's not actually that difficult when we
just go through it slowly now you'll
notice those arrows there they start to
rely on information because the crucial
thing about the viable System model is
not just having these parts here but the
way information flows between them them
so in terms of the primary activities
revenue is your classic one if people
are paying for it who might be doing it
what do the customers think are they
enjoying it in terms of coordination is
are the things working the way we expect
them to work are the things banging into
each other so we got operations we're
coordinating them and now what we need
to be doing is managing in managing
meaning the allocation of resources as
needed between the subsystems so we
don't use more resources than we need to
so it's the optimize
you can look at it from that point of
view and again our brains are naturally
going to go to management bosses that's
what the senior people are doing but
that's a choice you're making in your
own head what Stafford be is pointing
out is the system's going to need some
sort of management and that's going to
be there to actually make sure it's
clear what we're asking each primary
system to do the resource bargain is the
part where we actually have a
conversation to say here's what we need
you to do can you do it with these
resources and the reporting is the part
where we find out whether the things are
happening the way they're happening now
this is a key Point why do we do it like
this because we are trying to create
autonomy for the primary
activities that's what sits at the guts
of this remember back to Ash idea of we
need variety to handle variety the more
autonomy the primary activities can have
the more they can respond to what's in
front of them allowing them to handle
the different things that come at them
but if they have the level of autonomy
to the point where they're banging into
each other that's not going to work
hence system to and if we've got things
being autonomous where that's not the
best allocation of resources across the
show that's not going to be ideal for
the show as well so we have as much
autonomy as possible within the
boundaries of it not helping the wider
organization and the idea of having
system one two and three is to allow
that natural tension to
occur so Stafford be is not answering
the question of say centralized
decentralized r like that he's actually
setting up the natural tension and
saying we need systems in place in other
words ways of doing things that allow
those things to
occur the resource bargain sits at the
Key of it a lot of issues in
organizations will appear because there
was never a resource bargain Struck it
came from the point of view of saying
here you go do this good luck to you
wasn't a genuine resource
bargain I'm going to keep rolling along
because we're going to be going through
all this and having questions at the end
system 3 with an AS
risk is called the monitoring
Loop now this is a it's a nice one the
monitoring Loop exists to do two things
for wherever the reporting information's
going which is telling us are the
primary systems doing what we think
they're doing it's to check that the
reports are making sense they do
actually reflect reality the other
purpose of the monitoring Loop is if
there are people doing the primary
activity who aren't the same people as
doing the management we can build trust
to know that the people who are doing
the managing Things Are are aware of
what's happening in terms of primary
activities and vice versa so that's the
purpose of the monitoring Loop and it's
literally called three asterisk as a way
to say it sits a little bit outside but
it's a necessary aspect and there's even
some pretty direct instructions given in
terms of this in the model the idea is
do not try to go across and see
everything deliberately go down um
towards the primary activities from time
to time to really be able to understand
what's going on in the case of a
collective that would mean if there are
a group of people that also do primary
activities and look after things from
time to time they all look at each
other's stuff as well to see what's really
really
occurring so we've got system one
primary activity system two coordinating
system Three Delivery management and if
the world never changed this is all we'd
need to do progressively optimize and
keep it happening and make it more and
more effective and use resources better
but we're also going to have the future
so if you look at the environment
imagine if I could get it to magically
Slide by in time like that you would see
the future is going to eventually become
today and so that's where system 4 comes
in and system 4 is development that's
the consideration of what's the future
possibly going to bring so what do we
need to have and here's the arrows there
in terms of delivery in the future and
it's delivery set up as a circular thing
because what we can do in the future
depends on what we can do today and what
we're going to do tomorrow depends on
what we need for tomorrow and the things
work in a loop and this is why we're
talking about a viable system over time
because we need a system in place that
makes sure we're aware of the future and
we can adjust the overall operations
accordingly so we're still valuable in
the future and that is system four which
is called
development and there's one final system
that sits there and that's purpose and
policy and so that's the reason we're
doing it in the first place um you could
say that if we are going to be doing
development and changing the way
operations work what's the lasting
purpose or reason that we're doing that
for what's what's the development for
but Stafford beer also worked with the
concept is the purpose of a system is
what it does you can turn that into an
acadm as you want as well so you can
also look at that from the point of view
of it turns out the purpose of the
system is whatever the system does so
therefore do we need to develop it to
change it and once again there's some
arrows there as well because the purpose
and policy are going to inform the
development and the delivery
management so that's the model and if
you want to talk where the strategy fit
in look at strategy as systems 3 four
and five combined It's a combination of
what's our purpose what's the
development what's happening in the
future what can we do now what might we
be able to do in the future and that's
where strategy sits in terms of systems
three four and five
okay now I pop in those little squares
I'm going to go back ready squares gone
squares popping in that's to demonstrate
that each one of those primary
activities is its own viable
system so just like that 10 with the
woman standing there holding the 10 and
on the picture of the 10 was the same
picture again recursion so each one of
these little circles there which is a
primary activity is in itself its own
viable system with its own five systems
because within each department you're
going to have some sort of primary
activity divider between areas maybe you
have the whatever team and that team
within teams you might even allocate
different roles so you can sort of see
as we go down those same systems repeat
and if we go even wider the systems
start to repeat in terms of even beyond
the organization so that's why at the
end we put in that little
square now remember if we go back to
that one that we had popping up before
you saw all those diagrams and all those
lines and all that weird stuff happening
in the middle that's because what they
were trying to represent with that
diagram was within it each one's its own
little viable system and that's the
point that we're seeing
there so they are the requirements for a
viable system if those five systems are
present we have and the information is
Flowing we have what's required for a viable
viable
system now I just want to point out
something just reminding everyone it is
about the information so I'm just going
to give you just there's the arrows the
information about how the primary
activities are going the information
that allows people to coordinate the
information that allows us to see is
delivery happening the way we thought it
would be the monitoring the development
of things purpose and policy strange
thing to do but I just use it as a way
to remind us all remember Western world
it's so easy to think in terms of the
objects and the things and as we all
know from the system thinking world it's
the connections of the things that
matter equally or if not more and this
is what matters here in viable systems
it's about the information flow between
the systems as much as it is the systems
themselves and then we can pop in the
whole diagram back there again again
again
okay so what I'd like to do now is just
have a short question session just on
clarifying and then we're going to have
a short go at actually applying it now
so what I'm going to do is I'm going to
have a look at the chat and then but if
anyone wants to come off mute as well
and ask any clarifying questions at this
point that'd be most welcome so we're
not discussing yet we're just asking
clarifying questions so please go ahead
um I've just got a quick clarifying
question on hi Anthony um on uh system P
um for development can you just clarify
what we
mean again sorry I was no thank you
please don't apologize um we are
developing the operations so that they
will be able to be valuable in a future
world not just today's
world okay it's about all right building
the future for keeping the system alive
that's one so if you look at that whole
management box
um the purpose of the management box is
to um allocate resources and ensure what
we think's happening is happening and
develop those resources or develop the
operations for the future so we can
handle the future and still do whatever
our purpose is that's what the
management box exist for try to resist
the urge in your mind to think of that
as management the people and look at
that as management the system someone's
got to do
it thank you Anthony I appreciate those
Now Dave is there anything in the chat
when I'm the one presenting the chat
doesn't oh hang on I can bring it
there's a there's Fair bit of questions
Adam in the chat do you want me to go
through one by one from the top no
that's okay I think we'll jump into the
exercise and and then then we'll come
back to that so so this is just going to
be a quick one so what we'll do here is
the opportunity to apply because the
applying part it's not difficult you
just get better and better at it so you
can have a quick listen to someone like
me talking about here's how you can hit
a tennis ball but now okay we've got the
idea so now what we do is we just go out
in the court and start hitting them and
then we just get better and better over
time so if you think about a pressing
issue that you're dealing with in your
own organization or with a client of
yours what we do is we work out what the
issue is and then you simply Define what
is the system we're looking at this is
the one we always go straight over the
top of but are you talking about the
department are you talking about the
whole organization are you talking about
one team It's always important to say
what is the system because remember
there is always a larger viable system
that your systems a part
of a later stage one or a Higher One and
there's always a closer towards the
front or a smaller one that that's also
underneath your system so we Define the
system and then we ask ourselves where
do we think the Pain's coming from is it
that we don't know what the primary
activities are is it that they're
banging into each other is it that we
don't know whether the things are
occurring the way we thought they would
is it a lack of development towards the
future or are we not clear on the
overall purpose if I can give you kind
of the cheat code it's coordination more
than we think it's system to we like the
idea especially around the executive
table surely it can't be coordination
it's got to sound more impressive than
that but if you think about a lot of
problems in organizations you just got
areas banging into each other and that's
a coordination problem it's not even
necessarily resource allocation but I'm
just going to go quiet for two or three
minutes Define the system look at each
of the five systems and ask yourself
which one there might there be an issue
in what's missing or what's being
ineffective and then see if there's a
blinding flash of the obvious see what
might come out in terms of that so I'm
just going to stay quiet for a couple of
minutes and I'm just going to go back
one to the slide itself of the viable
system so you can see what they
Adam do you want us to type it in the
chat or shout it out or no it's okay in
a couple of minutes I'll just ask people
to just talk about what what stood out
to them in terms of doing the exercise
seconds okay I'm going to temporarily
stop the screen sharing just so we can
all be on gallery view then I'll bring it
it
back I'm always interested in not
necessarily what your answer was but
what stood out to you or what occurred
to you or what struck you in just using
viable systems model in this way to have
a think through or problem did anything
stand out to anyone that' be useful to
group so um I'm I'm happy to jump in
with a share which is that I was
thinking of a particular problem that
I'm working on which is strategy for an
organization and um you know that it
felt like the primar prim the primary
problem around strategy that I was
seeking to address was actually around
coordination and uh in a way it's too
many activities being done and yeah lack
of lack of coordination if you like
across the operational units but then it
was also a little bit of purpose and
policy what purpose yeah so getting
clear that and uh you know there was
some flow on into development as well um
yeah interestingly enough in the chat uh
Bernie made the comment that you know
development was also possibly R&D and so
that sort of you know fitted into that
so sort of felt like uh yeah look it was
an interesting frame to do some
diagnosis I'm not yet sure whether it
gave me any insights yeah I'm with you
Martin I'm with you and if we think
about the idea of the information flows
because if you are doing strategy
generally for an organization you are
doing that system for development and
what we're looking for is information
that allows decisions made in that area
to be effective and so if you've got a
bit of mess going on there it means your
information's coming at you it's not to
use the fancy word attenuated which
means slim down so it can make sense and
if you take information from the policy
system and also from the um management
of delivery that allows you to have
information around the table that can
then lead to good decisions of system 4
but in a way the engagement of you makes
sense because what they're saying is our
system 4 is not is feeling a bit shaky
let's get some help on system 4 they're
just not using this language yeah yeah
the the other thing that came across
interestingly was the whole requisite
variety thing with Ashby which is that
to say that you know uh if you focus on
less things then you know you're
effectively um attenuating in your words
you know the the variety in the system
that's right but the classic attenuation
also to say we're only going to worry
about one market instead of four that
way you deliberately reduce your variety
to handle what you're about so David
what thought was in your mind
yeah I was thinking about um
accumulation of technical debt in
systems particularly software systems
that's a common problem we run into and
I was trying to think looking through
this lens and at first I'm going oh is
it we're not thinking about the future
enough about the implications of it it's
like yeah maybe but I was thinking about
maybe where um uh we can't see what's
actually happening so the people that
have the decisions and policies and
whatever all the responsibility make to
do that um uh coordination and and other
things around that can't see that
specifically and so there's something
around that in the in the making that
visible so that they they can um then
make an active decision about is that in
line with where we want to be in the
future spot on so I don't know that was
something I was thinking about and it'll
ofer be approach from system for those
sort of things because it feels more
more interesting and more you know
getting things done but it's an illusion
what's often needed is some system to
coordination as you say to get a view of
what's going on that then allows some
system three to say well do we have
enough resources there and even if
that's all we've got let's at least
coordinate it so we can get as much done
with what we do have so you're right
yeah I find when we're dealing with
technical debt the the trend is to go to
system for development too early maybe
because Executives feel comfortable
there and my Works to often help them go
your capability is actually needed to
get in place some quality coordin
systems here let's not even worry about
development yet even though your NBA
says that's what you should be doing
David okay so in terms of a diagnostic
if you want to know how this works
practically you can do a run through of
the model and then I'll just tell you
what I do like gradually just created a
bit of a discussion in terms of okay
what does it look like what sort of
things exist already and that becomes
the interesting part if we start talking
about what sort of things exist already
so I'll just put the the model back
up can anyone think of an example of a
system to coordination thing that's
fancy I know the answer so I'm not
saying it so
thanks um think about a university
what's a coordination system that exists
University time table spot on David it's
a great example of the simplest
coordination system it seems so obvious
we don't even notice it take it away you
would now have to have every day a
negotiation between all the lecturers
because they' all be wanting to do the
10 or 11 a.m. one because that's
convenient um you'd be doing that all
the students would want it to be at a
certain time you would have to have
potentially a 4,000 person negotiation
every every Monday or every start first
of every month to get this going or you
can put out a timetable so it's a great
example of how coordination system
doesn't have to be fancy and remember
before we went back to putting
everything digitally you'd print the
bloody thing out and stick it on a wall
that was a coordination system so alad
something on your mind just a really
recent example uh at work during
Christmas we had um kids Christmas party
at work right and there were around 700
people attending that session you can
imagine in my house and when I got more
than three kids or four the entire house
goes boom right so imagine at work with
that sort of environment it went so
smooth and a big part of it was few days
before the session start we all went in
the organizing team put people into
different colors we went in we get a
reband and they said everyone with
yellow at this time go to this room
everyone with blue to this room and then
one person at the front that was
effectively both system 4 which is they
were looking at Future this is GNA
happen and system two that was a
fantastic even so smooth almost it was
almost boring we were expecting a lot of
w everything is gonna blow up nothing
blow up everyone enjoyed it they're good
examples of coordination system yeah um
you see them all the time in public
transport signs up around the place and
that sort of thing and if you see a shop
running that's really effective like a
really effective manufacturing shop
you'll see coordination systems
everywhere the ones that work quite well
um visual things something like that now
here's one that I could ask the question
but it's really difficult to answer
there was a coordination system that
used to exist in the 80s but because the
world has got healthier that
coordination system doesn't exist like
it used to can anyone think of what that
might be it's almost a riddle a
coordination system that existed in the
80s that no longer exists to any sort of
effective degree because the world got
healthier is that the smoking thing you
got it Anthony so it was an unofficial
coordination system but if the people
who could make decisions all happen to
smoke then a coordination system would
be to get together and talk about the
work and of course it's a highly
exclusionary practice and blah blah blah
so you know it's it's not it's not
ethical but the point is those things
are examples one I know of one place
where they changed where the people eat
which meant that the same group wasn't
eating in the same location every day
they lost a key coordination system so
if you busted out VSM to do your
diagnosis you'd say well how do we
coordinate who's doing what and when
someone who's just straight to the point
would say that's easy mate we get
together at 10:30 and talk about it but
without some sort of system in place we
can't do it and then of course our
brains go to we'll just put in an Erp
and of course that almost causes the
opposite of course coordination unless
you get that right so what we're looking
for often if we're detecting a lack of
coordination is the coordination
system the classic delivery management
or system 3 who knows what that is
organization what do you do once a year
everyone has a fight about
it budget budget yeah so that's the
system by which it currently occurs the
resource allocation and the resource
bargain is it effective we could argue
maybe not but that's the classic way
that it works and performance reporting
is often again in terms of the
information coming back up so when we're
looking at that we're actually asking
the questions about how effective is
that and is that occurring but often
sometimes in the places if we don't have
a way that people can see whether the
restaurant's making money there's
information missing in terms of being
able to manage the resta
El I think as you were talking I was
thinking a really fancy way of looking
at it um not fancy but just another way
of looking at you could look at this um
some of this system and say okay let's
say budgeting is so is our system three
I'm going with the speed that the
environment change simple as that if
you're doing your budgeting annually but
your environment is Shifting faster then
you have a problem so you could actually
apply that lens into each of the systems
as well how often do you have to update
your strategy or look up in the system
that's a really that's a really good
point yeah the development work occurs
during the traditional strategy day um
in my experience of working with clients
um their previous experiences they
haven't really done strategy they've
done a version of delivery management
because what they've discussed is these
are our five pillars and they've
organized the projects into their swim
lanes and they've called out a strategy
now that's not useless work so I'm not
having a go at that but it's not
actually strategy because it's not
collecting information about the
internal and external worlds and then
using judgment and intuition to to make
some decisions but if you think about
the case of a senior manager or a
manager within a classic organization
they're also making development
decisions if we don't get training in
this area we're not going to be able to
do the job next year we're going to need
to learn how to sell that new product
that's examples of development work that
occurs you know at that lower level of
recursion so any given system and for
yourselves it's I want to do a big bike
ride next year might cross your mind I
better start doing some training that'd
be an example of some development work
for your human system and maybe your
bigger purpose is because I want to live
a more active life so so that's how all
those sort of systems can come together
and by engaging a group in a discussion
and my preferred way of doing consulting
is present the idea or the concept and
then join with them in discussing it and
mainly because I hate writing reports I
actively don't like it I would pay
someone to do it rather than get paid
myself and I find it more effective just
to talk about the model then get them to
work through it so that's your idea of a
diagnosis and naturally whenever you're
doing a diagnosis you can move it in the
other direction by saying well if we are
design designing how this works what are
our systems of coordination going to be
how are we going to allocate the
resources so we can list out each of the
headings and we can simply say how are
we going to do that so that's how it
works as both a diagnostic in terms of
what's not going right and then a future
looking thing in terms of how can we
design so it can go right in the
future now I just want to Curry off the
um just the point that often pops up
about hierarchy um now hierarchy is not
automatically bad a dominant hierarchy
can be this is actually from um one of
the books and Stafford beer says the
production controller does not have
higher status than the system one
managers they have more knowledge about
what is happening in the rest of the
organization in other words they have
the vantage point to see across the show
but it doesn't mean they're a higher
class of person well it's true that
knowledge is power in this case as in
any other the production controller
power is limited to anti- oscillatory
regulation in other words the production
controller exists to stop things
Swinging From Here back to here back to
here it's equivalent to stopping the
good going in a lift up to this floor
not our floor going down the lift of
that floor not our floor going back up
again production control is there to
play the coordinating role but they
don't have to be a higher class of human
so the idea is a presentation of
Stafford be says is offs say system to
in this example shouldn't be threatening
but it often is because the role is
unclear and people start saying I'm the
one that's going to tell you what to do
but that doesn't come from system two
that's agreed to system three so that's
one of the important things about
hierarchy in terms of the viable System
model nowhere in the model does it say
this is the group of people that must do
this or this is a separate group of
people but naturally organizations are
going to organize themselves in a
certain way but I'd always like to point
out that's a human organizational thing
it's not the viable System model
necessarily I'll come back to that
shortly because another thing I want to
point out is this idea if we look at a
shopping center do we say it's a
hierarchical Arrangement because you do
have a shopping center which is a viable
system then within that shopping center
we have a series of shops each one of
them is a viable system so what's more
important the shopping center or the
shops and I think the answer is trick
question because the shopping center is
only as viable as the shops in it and
the shop Center are only as viable as
the shopping center so they have a
synergistic relationship and we could
argue it's hierarchical because one
provides the containing environment for
the other but not hierarchical in the
usual way we see it so I always like to
point this out when we're talking about
models where you do have recursions or
levels to remember that these sort of
hierarchies exist but it's a choice
about whether we see them as enabling
and containing versus seeing them as
dominant and power
over and just a couple of examples where
viable Mar I'll come back to you in just
a tck and just a couple of examples
where viable system models been used
because it's used by co-ops because they
deliberately want to actually set up a
situation where they can have the
necessary controls
without it having to have bosses and so
one example Suma which has been around
not quite as long as I have but nearly
and what they are is um they're a Whole
Foods Co-op and they deliberately used
the viable System model because the
reason a co-op brings this in is it all
starts great then you get a bit big and
what do you know love alone is not
working anymore but we don't want to
bring in traditional um what you would
call traditional hierarchy so the viable
System model pops up and this is where I
like to use an expression that that I
came across years ago it's about rooms
and not rolls so what I mean by that is
you don't necessarily have to have
system 3 delivery management person but
you need to have a system Three Delivery
management metaphorical room so when
it's time to get together to say how are
we doing in terms of delivery management
right may be exactly the same group of
people that do the the primary
activities then get in the room and say
right let's look at our data let's look
at our information let's talk about
which resources are going where so then
we have that room and then strangely
those exact same people can come come
out of that room and start packing boxes
and so that's where I like to use the
Expression rooms and not rols to remind
us that it's a choice that we make
whether we say that person is the one
that does the system three or system
four work versus saying that is a system
for decision let's get that group in to
make that call and of course I think
most hierarchies can improve by having a
bit of both where you might have someone
whose job it is to make that call maybe
called a general manager on behalf of
the whole organization but to go about
it in a way that says tell me what you
seen and just another example is mon
Dragon started off in Spain um initially
in um in agricultural areas but now in
finance and Industry and the like and
they've been able to use viable System
model as well in various aspects to
again maintain exactly the same
principles of we have sufficient
autonomy at the source so people can be
themselves and do their thing but we
have the systems in place that in turn
allow us to stay viable as a whole in
The Wider
environment and I just like like to
leave this one in your mind before we
all have a chat about it which
is you could say this is a hypothesis I
have could never prove it maybe
hierarchy comes from the very human need
to be okay in an uncertain World we're
okay by get those with power to protect
us we kind of like the dominant boss in
a weird way because it's not my problem
and also by controlling what we can to
make it certain which means if I can be
that sort of boss I can relax because I
know people will do what I say so
ironically us humans create the perfect
conditions for dominant dependent
hierarchies maybe we secretly like it
that way which is why any model such as
a vial System model can be bent into a
hierarchical shape pretty quickly but as
those examples of mon dragon and suer
and many others show that's a choice
that we can make as people if you want a
couple of sources the fractal
organization my colleague and friend
Patrick hovat he's he's there in the UK
he lives um halfway between Manchester
and Le I can't remember the name of the
place exactly he's written the most accessible
accessible
book um on the viable System model I
really like it and that one on the right
you see that was actually got some
examples of those ones that I spoke
about and what's great about the case
studies is it didn't work great it's a
real world thing but he went and wrote
for cooperatives here's how to use the
VSM for that so there are a couple of
sources but I recommend starting with
the fractal organization if you're
interested in it because Patrick's just
uh his writing's
excellent so that's my bit in terms of
sort of being able to go through my
stuff so now get to the part where we
get to have a little bit of a chat about
it Adam that that was fascinating of
course um one of the best talks I've
ever seen about thank you um really
really appreciate it um I um in your
example where you said you have a
general managers who's taking care of a
broad group
um I mean when you mentioned that um
maybe we like hierarchy because it gives
us a bit of a certainty I think the
opposite example of that is what you
provided in you have a room um instead
of seeing a hierarchy as a person we see
it as a mechanism and also uh one thing
that is a cautious ofone that's one of
my bigar and bu bear with a lot of even
some of the agile methodologies is a
general manager will never have the
requisite variety of everyone in that
team her or him or
or
right so our day so um so uh that is why
uh I think um these new models uh the
models where you tap into the collective
um so you provide mechanism so we can
tap into the collective consciousness of
a group for managing themsel rather than
relying on a single person a single
person regardless how great they are
even if you're Gandy or whatever uh
you cannot have the requisite variety
that the entire people that follows you
or report to you have uh there is
another example just psychologist um
called Bo Lotto he talked about a space
of possibility yes people a space of
possibility is very different the
general manager see teams different but
collectively where you put together a
space of possibility of group of people
that suddenly expanded significantly
problem is up until now it was hard to
make those sort of decisions now with
technology with uh with with experiment
with a lot of different organizational
parts we do not need traditional
hierarchies anymore it's very rare that
there is a need for traditional
hierarchy that's my hypothesis obviously
and and what and what you'll get from
the viable systems model is the idea of
saying whatever you call it you're going
to need some sort of system three that's
actually looking at the allocation of
resources and are we getting what we
expected the thing we can now see is um
open to us is let's figure out the best
way for us to do that given this group
of people in our circumstances and I
think that's the power of VSM which is
why it's popped up a bit these days is
to be able to say no we still need that
system but it's optional how we go about
doing it so yeah thanks
elad what else come to mind Martin I saw
you had some comments in the uh in the
chat as well as you're gonna I have a
actually a very simple question Adam
which is uh I love your example of the
shopping center in the shops so how
would you represent that in VSM you know
why how would you sort of let's say
create the dependencies yep I would set
it up that um if I had to draw it on a
diagram you would have each shop as a
primary activity of the shopping center
yeah and then within each shop each shop
would be its own BSM as well but the
wider containing system of the shops is
that and then I'd look at each one of
those systems and the linkages of
information is the coordination between
the shops and I'm sure shopping centers
have some various forums and ways that
they actually make sure that everyone's
happy and um and if you're talking about
allocating resources in a shopping
center I'm guessing that's we're going
to look after that section before that
section and that sort of thing what VSM
tells us is if the information's not
flowing and we're not making those
decisions as alad said at the right um
speed of the loop we cannot be as viable
so that that's how that would come about
thanks by the way I actually I just want
to say great presentation really loved
it umk you know it uh it brought VSM to
life for me thanks oh I appreciate that thank
you I can look through some of the
questions just while we're all having a
bit of ponder um Martin how does the
vssm deal with uncertainty um the idea
is it's set up to deal with uncertainty
and the important thing as alad said is
that we're going through the loops
quickly enough um it deals with the
uncertainty of primary activities by
providing autonomy to the front so that
they can respond to the things that's
occurring to them but hopefully we've
got enough in place that they can't
respond to the degree that it
disintegrates the rest of the system and
then we have system four in place to
consider how does the operation work in
terms of that so it's designed to live
in an environment that is not certain
through making sure we have all the
systems in place that we can make
decisions to be able to handle that so
David what's on your
mind uh was the clarification on
resource by
it was something and I was just more
Curious I was trying to turn that into
something concrete for myself what are
some common examples or your explanation
of that yeah so the resource bargain
works well when you're talking to a
group of mates and you're saying do you
reckon you could take care of that for
me um how much time would you need to do
it and that sort of thing we go into the
world of work and we get weird about it
um where people get you know this is
going to be your budget and you have to
fight to try to get in the other
direction and all that sort of stuff so
they examples of the resource bargain
attempting to happen and so that's what
it looks like concrete so that's why the
example is often budget time but as we know budget's that bit where first you
know budget's that bit where first you go argue with the CFO then you go argue
go argue with the CFO then you go argue with the CEO and all that sort of thing
with the CEO and all that sort of thing but that's what you'd point out using
but that's what you'd point out using vssm is you'd say so that's how your
vssm is you'd say so that's how your system three is working that's your
system three is working that's your method do you think that's the way to
method do you think that's the way to actually optimize the resource
actually optimize the resource allocation of this organization and that
allocation of this organization and that can lead to some of those discussions so
can lead to some of those discussions so that's what the resource bargain is and
that's what the resource bargain is and look at it from the point of view of we
look at it from the point of view of we want to create autonomy as much as we
want to create autonomy as much as we can with the primary activities within
can with the primary activities within the bounds of not upsetting the whole
the bounds of not upsetting the whole and so by agreeing the resource bargain
and so by agreeing the resource bargain which is in return for this budget you
which is in return for this budget you will provide this stuff to that group of
will provide this stuff to that group of customers we can now set up the
customers we can now set up the conditions for them to have autonomy and
conditions for them to have autonomy and if you look at it the opposite of a
if you look at it the opposite of a hierarchy a group of six people working
hierarchy a group of six people working out their own partnership each one of
out their own partnership each one of them might say here's what I'll
them might say here's what I'll contribute with this budget and everyone
contribute with this budget and everyone says that sounds good to me that would
says that sounds good to me that would be an example of a system three resource
be an example of a system three resource bargain
bargain occurring
occurring H yeah it picked my interest because
H yeah it picked my interest because um often called capacity planning or
um often called capacity planning or something
something similar and and just seeing the
similar and and just seeing the dysfunction around that and the results
dysfunction around that and the results yeah so that might be coordination
yeah so that might be coordination sometimes if your capacity planning
sometimes if your capacity planning according to what's the best way to
according to what's the best way to optimize what we've got that's going to
optimize what we've got that's going to be coordination if it's the decisions
be coordination if it's the decisions about here's how much we're going to
about here's how much we're going to give you and this is what we'd like back
give you and this is what we'd like back let's talk about that that then becomes
let's talk about that that then becomes system three and again point is to have
system three and again point is to have those conversations and later on we can
those conversations and later on we can say do we cover system two or system
say do we cover system two or system three that's always a trick with all
three that's always a trick with all this stuff as in if the stuff's
this stuff as in if the stuff's happening who cares whether they're
happening who cares whether they're using the words or
using the words or not yeah thank you system two and three
not yeah thank you system two and three the big ones in organizations system
the big ones in organizations system four generally not as effective as it
four generally not as effective as it should be but system two and three would
should be but system two and three would eliminate so much pain if it was taken
eliminate so much pain if it was taken seriously or sorry if it was applied
seriously or sorry if it was applied more seriously so sorry just jump in
more seriously so sorry just jump in there uh quickly Dave your example of
there uh quickly Dave your example of capacity planning uh I'm facing a
capacity planning uh I'm facing a situation where the organization system
situation where the organization system for is not working well as well as
for is not working well as well as system
system two they always are facing a problem
two they always are facing a problem with number of people working on
with number of people working on projects and then always last minute
projects and then always last minute they say oh I need this additional skill
they say oh I need this additional skill set I need this additional people I need
set I need this additional people I need this additional so the the thing is the
this additional so the the thing is the um communication lines between different
um communication lines between different system is not working well because the
system is not working well because the operation is going doing things and
operation is going doing things and they're busy with today and now
they're busy with today and now system 4 is not looking at the new the
system 4 is not looking at the new the the new projects that are coming through
the new projects that are coming through system three is not looking at
system three is not looking at allocating the right capacity to the
allocating the right capacity to the right project so none of those systems
right project so none of those systems are working well and if they're working
are working well and if they're working well the connection between them are not
well the connection between them are not working well so sometimes it is not a
working well so sometimes it is not a single system that is dysfunctional
single system that is dysfunctional sometimes it's just a combination of
sometimes it's just a combination of them um another quick example is they
them um another quick example is they was saying in one organization they got
was saying in one organization they got rid of pmo when they went aile and then
rid of pmo when they went aile and then every one just got quite confused they
every one just got quite confused they didn't know where to go they didn't know
didn't know where to go they didn't know where to find people uh a lot of the
where to find people uh a lot of the time agile folks like myself we said oh
time agile folks like myself we said oh PM we don't need pmo it's all about
PM we don't need pmo it's all about control but if you're removing a
control but if you're removing a coordination or uh baining function from
coordination or uh baining function from an organization you need to have a
an organization you need to have a replacement for it if your model is very
replacement for it if your model is very command and control yes you can replace
command and control yes you can replace it some self-managing uh models but you
it some self-managing uh models but you still need that system so that was
still need that system so that was another
another yeah program office and swapping to that
yeah program office and swapping to that version of agile you're talking about
version of agile you're talking about yeah that's replacing one type of system
yeah that's replacing one type of system to coordination for another it seems a
to coordination for another it seems a bigger deal because program officers
bigger deal because program officers often can sit up quite High because
often can sit up quite High because they're overseeing a lot that doesn't
they're overseeing a lot that doesn't mean though and doesn't it it doesn't
mean though and doesn't it it doesn't mean just because it's a system to
mean just because it's a system to function that it's not important that's
function that it's not important that's our old school hierarchy stuff in our
our old school hierarchy stuff in our head telling us that I saw the reference
head telling us that I saw the reference to flight levels like to CLA and Cliff's
to flight levels like to CLA and Cliff's Hazel's work so the flight levels does
Hazel's work so the flight levels does um does respond it's another way to put
um does respond it's another way to put um the systems if you talk about a whole
um the systems if you talk about a whole organization um Elliot Jack's requisite
organization um Elliot Jack's requisite organization Jillian STW workk is
organization Jillian STW workk is another good example when if you apply
another good example when if you apply BSM to a whole organization you'll start
BSM to a whole organization you'll start to see a connection between there so
to see a connection between there so you've kind of got I like the idea of
you've kind of got I like the idea of you've got these brilliant thinkers
you've got these brilliant thinkers they're all climbing up the same Hill
they're all climbing up the same Hill they're just kind of climbing up using
they're just kind of climbing up using different faces of the same Hill so
different faces of the same Hill so which is why I don't get caught up in
which is why I don't get caught up in debates about which one's right I tend
debates about which one's right I tend to think well which song do we need I
to think well which song do we need I mean some clients I'll bust out a bit of
mean some clients I'll bust out a bit of old school Ro to help them see the
old school Ro to help them see the different roles are other clients need a
different roles are other clients need a bit of VM and and I love the lingo of
bit of VM and and I love the lingo of flight levels it's a it's a nice way to
flight levels it's a it's a nice way to say there are different types of work
say there are different types of work but it seems to be nicer for people so
but it seems to be nicer for people so yeah it's all the same stuff it has to
yeah it's all the same stuff it has to be was popping up
be was popping up everywhere yeah well it has to be the
everywhere yeah well it has to be the same it's the same natural world like
same it's the same natural world like it so yeah the the the gber or jber walk
it so yeah the the the gber or jber walk um yeah it can be a type of ad hoc
um yeah it can be a type of ad hoc monitoring um it can also be used as a
monitoring um it can also be used as a way for a variety of systems so you can
way for a variety of systems so you can do a that type of work as a system five
do a that type of work as a system five thing to say is the stuff I'm seeing
thing to say is the stuff I'm seeing reflecting the purpose then you could
reflecting the purpose then you could ask yourself why isn't it and you can go
ask yourself why isn't it and you can go any of the given systems you can do for
any of the given systems you can do for a for a gimble walk to answer that
a for a gimble walk to answer that question so why they labeled systems
question so why they labeled systems because it was written in the 70s that's
because it was written in the 70s that's the answer to that
question um what else can I help with yeah R&D
um what else can I help with yeah R&D can apply to the variety of systems so
can apply to the variety of systems so R&D where you're looking into fut type
R&D where you're looking into fut type things and if you're going to run some
things and if you're going to run some of the you know the cleric Jeff Jeffrey
of the you know the cleric Jeff Jeffrey Mo Zone to Wi stuff where you're doing
Mo Zone to Wi stuff where you're doing some experiments and that sort of thing
some experiments and that sort of thing they might be done for the purpose of
they might be done for the purpose of informing system 4 but each one of those
informing system 4 but each one of those experiments is its own little viable
experiments is its own little viable system it's going to have primary
system it's going to have primary activities needs to be coordinated and
activities needs to be coordinated and the rest of it so that's how that can
the rest of it so that's how that can come together but you might be doing R&D
come together but you might be doing R&D for system 3 to think if we rearrange
for system 3 to think if we rearrange this whole show would it work a lot
this whole show would it work a lot better so look at R&D as actually um
better so look at R&D as actually um being a contributor of information into
being a contributor of information into various systems and here's one that
various systems and here's one that might be kind of an interesting thing to
might be kind of an interesting thing to Rattle around in your mind any function
Rattle around in your mind any function such as accounting um any of the ones
such as accounting um any of the ones that support the business like to use
that support the business like to use the old Michael Porter value chain any
the old Michael Porter value chain any of those support activities they can't
of those support activities they can't be system
be system one they might have their own viable
one they might have their own viable system in the sense of once you're in
system in the sense of once you're in that system they've got their system on
that system they've got their system on outputs here's the monthly financials
outputs here's the monthly financials but in terms of the whole organization
but in terms of the whole organization they cannot be system one because a
they cannot be system one because a lesser and accounting Organization no
lesser and accounting Organization no organization exists for its finance
organization exists for its finance department but that doesn't mean it's
department but that doesn't mean it's not a crucial input of information
not a crucial input of information particularly into system 3 so remember
particularly into system 3 so remember that it's a useful way to remind people
that it's a useful way to remind people both we're not here for your area but
both we're not here for your area but then in the very next sentence say but
then in the very next sentence say but we're completely stuffed without your
we're completely stuffed without your area so it can be quite valuable to help
area so it can be quite valuable to help that
out okay think it all makes sense looking at
okay think it all makes sense looking at the comments hospital triage is a great
the comments hospital triage is a great example of system two
coordination okay the company still do budgets hell
budgets hell yeah
y yeah you point the shopping the shop needs a shopping center the shopping
needs a shopping center the shopping center needs the shop
yeah yeah thanks for that point are you still here just for that point of about
still here just for that point of about the the Chile thing yeah there's quite a
the the Chile thing yeah there's quite a few different angles on that
few different angles on that so oh well that seems to be the main
so oh well that seems to be the main sort of
sort of comments okay um the point about
comments okay um the point about strategy is more about intuition I'll
strategy is more about intuition I'll just put into there if we're talking
just put into there if we're talking about the system forwork for the whole
about the system forwork for the whole show by definition it has to be
show by definition it has to be somewhere because there's no data about
somewhere because there's no data about the future so at some point there has to
the future so at some point there has to be judgment applied in terms of strategy
be judgment applied in terms of strategy then you can do I like Roger Martin's
then you can do I like Roger Martin's Point of View where he says what would
Point of View where he says what would need to be true it's a fancy way to say
need to be true it's a fancy way to say assumptions what would need to be true
assumptions what would need to be true for that strategy to not be a dumb idea
for that strategy to not be a dumb idea um but even then you you can put all
um but even then you you can put all that out I I work with strategy clients
that out I I work with strategy clients on a little Matrix which says how much
on a little Matrix which says how much are we relying on that factor and how
are we relying on that factor and how certain are we and if there's something
certain are we and if there's something we're totally relying on and we're
we're totally relying on and we're totally uncertain about it we might get
totally uncertain about it we might get a bit worried about that strategic
a bit worried about that strategic option but in the end that's as close as
option but in the end that's as close as we're going to get the data we're going
we're going to get the data we're going to collect it's probably not going to
to collect it's probably not going to push us one way or the other so so I
push us one way or the other so so I think strategies about intuition um one
think strategies about intuition um one of my favorite football coaches that's
of my favorite football coaches that's um Aussie rules football here in
um Aussie rules football here in Australia his name was Lee Matthews and
Australia his name was Lee Matthews and he said you fill your head with as much
he said you fill your head with as much information as you can and then you let
information as you can and then you let your gut make the decision and I really
your gut make the decision and I really like that idea because you're not being
like that idea because you're not being lazy you're being rigorous about
lazy you're being rigorous about collecting information that's useful but
collecting information that's useful but in the end you're acknowledging there is
in the end you're acknowledging there is no data about the future we're just
no data about the future we're just making that decision so that's what I
making that decision so that's what I think the good system for where it comes
from cool Adam I have a I have I have one for
cool Adam I have a I have I have one for you um early days for me when I started
you um early days for me when I started when I learned about vssm I look at it
when I learned about vssm I look at it and I say okay where is HR where is
and I say okay where is HR where is marketing yes where is uh Finance where
marketing yes where is uh Finance where is um operation team operation team
is um operation team operation team means system one so how would you
means system one so how would you respond to that for someone who's
respond to that for someone who's starting yeah so we say what do you do
starting yeah so we say what do you do how does it contribute so let's let's
how does it contribute so let's let's say marketing marketing is you could say
say marketing marketing is you could say it's it's connected to the primary
it's it's connected to the primary activity because it makes people aware
activity because it makes people aware that that's what you do but marketing is
that that's what you do but marketing is also a system for activity in terms of
also a system for activity in terms of its role in providing information into
its role in providing information into strategy and the like like my simple way
strategy and the like like my simple way of looking at it is strategy is about
of looking at it is strategy is about positioning in the ecosystem and
positioning in the ecosystem and marketing is about the value exchange
marketing is about the value exchange that works when we're at that position
that works when we're at that position it's just my simple way to but they
it's just my simple way to but they naturally inform each other a lot so if
naturally inform each other a lot so if you take something like marketing that's
you take something like marketing that's where it's going to sit in system one um
where it's going to sit in system one um information into system one to drive
information into system one to drive demand and system four in order to do
demand and system four in order to do that and naturally they'll have a say in
that and naturally they'll have a say in system three to say hey give me a bit
system three to say hey give me a bit more money and this is what I can do so
more money and this is what I can do so it's a pretty good example that one I
it's a pretty good example that one I think the classic one is if you take
think the classic one is if you take anything like business
anything like business Improvement um they're going to float
Improvement um they're going to float around in system two and system three
around in system two and system three system two is where they can actually
system two is where they can actually add the most value Theory constraints is
add the most value Theory constraints is a brilliant example of system 2 done
a brilliant example of system 2 done amazingly like gold rat's work is system
amazingly like gold rat's work is system 2 genius all the way and it shouldn't
2 genius all the way and it shouldn't ever be thought of as therefore closer
ever be thought of as therefore closer to the front line it's it's genius it's
to the front line it's it's genius it's how to coordinate everything so um yeah
how to coordinate everything so um yeah so that's where that sort of thing comes
so that's where that sort of thing comes in and of course Finance provides it's
in and of course Finance provides it's all about those Arrow it provides the
all about those Arrow it provides the information flow that allows all those
information flow that allows all those decisions to occur around the
decisions to occur around the place so yeah beautiful it's beautifully
place so yeah beautiful it's beautifully said thank
said thank you
you yeah so that's an over that's an
yeah so that's an over that's an overview of um of vssm um I enjoy
overview of um of vssm um I enjoy questions everyone so if you want to
questions everyone so if you want to email me anything you're not bothering
email me anything you're not bothering me you're actually making my day more
me you're actually making my day more interesting
interesting so um yeah it's an open invitation to
so um yeah it's an open invitation to email me with with any questions and I I
email me with with any questions and I I like talking about this stuff so if I
like talking about this stuff so if I can even help by appearing somewhere and
can even help by appearing somewhere and doing a quick half hour talk I'm always
doing a quick half hour talk I'm always more than happy to help out the
more than happy to help out the community so honestly I really find this
community so honestly I really find this stuff interesting and I'm curious so
stuff interesting and I'm curious so please reach out if there's anything I
please reach out if there's anything I can do to
help I think Carl had a question there was that a question Carl there someone
was that a question Carl there someone the first thing by the way is
the first thing by the way is Martin Martin yeah so if we uh look on
Martin Martin yeah so if we uh look on organization I think you have this uh
organization I think you have this uh three columns so the anatomy how the
three columns so the anatomy how the organization is structured so the orc
organization is structured so the orc chart uh you have the physiology so the
chart uh you have the physiology so the processes and you have the neurology so
processes and you have the neurology so the communication channels my point of
the communication channels my point of view is that vssm is really focusing on
view is that vssm is really focusing on this neurology so the communication
this neurology so the communication information flow nevertheless you need
information flow nevertheless you need somehow some processes and some clarity
somehow some processes and some clarity on the organizational structure so any
on the organizational structure so any ideas how you
ideas how you transform this knowledge from the vssm
transform this knowledge from the vssm into the other columns whats you have
into the other columns whats you have yeah definitely Martin um you're picking
yeah definitely Martin um you're picking up that it's more about neurology than
up that it's more about neurology than the um than the anatomy that's um that's
the um than the anatomy that's um that's really insightful because it is about
really insightful because it is about that information flow and making sure
that information flow and making sure the right information gets to the people
the right information gets to the people that make the decision
that make the decision so what VM says is for all of those
so what VM says is for all of those things it's almost Aion of shrug
things it's almost Aion of shrug whatever you need to make that those
whatever you need to make that those systems are getting good information to
systems are getting good information to make those calls so the or structure is
make those calls so the or structure is one way that we can look at that if
one way that we can look at that if you've got a role called senior manager
you've got a role called senior manager and there's just a one of them and you
and there's just a one of them and you say your job's to do system three and
say your job's to do system three and that person is good at it and takes
that person is good at it and takes information but that might be how you
information but that might be how you say that's how we handle system 3 so
say that's how we handle system 3 so that'll be a combination of structure
that'll be a combination of structure hopefully the neurology um to be to get
hopefully the neurology um to be to get in the information but there's different
in the information but there's different ways that you can do it a collective
ways that you can do it a collective will have a group of people meeting in a
will have a group of people meeting in a room to talk about that so if you want
room to talk about that so if you want to take any of the three you mentioned
to take any of the three you mentioned the neurology part is actually the most
the neurology part is actually the most important and you just have the the
important and you just have the the anatomy or the structure part to enable
anatomy or the structure part to enable the information flow so the work happens
the information flow so the work happens so so that's why VSM you could I don't
so so that's why VSM you could I don't know whether you'd call it a meta Theory
know whether you'd call it a meta Theory but it kind of sits outside of like if
but it kind of sits outside of like if you take something like recorded
you take something like recorded organization that says these are your
organization that says these are your levels of work and here's how you line
levels of work and here's how you line them up be emed to say yeah that might
them up be emed to say yeah that might work work and there might be another way
work work and there might be another way to do it resel Jacks would rise from the
to do it resel Jacks would rise from the dead and say there's only one way to do
dead and say there's only one way to do it whereas VSM tends to be a bit more
it whereas VSM tends to be a bit more like as long as you're covering that
like as long as you're covering that stuff your system's probably going to be
stuff your system's probably going to be viable assuming you're making enough
viable assuming you're making enough money does that sort of help at all
money does that sort of help at all Martin y thank I like I like that the
Martin y thank I like I like that the Neurology of it cool yeah
Neurology of it cool yeah David yeah um the risk of dominating the
David yeah um the risk of dominating the questions apologies to the rest of the
questions apologies to the rest of the group um but but uh this is more of a
group um but but uh this is more of a curious question you mentioned around
curious question you mentioned around you don't mind uh discussing this stuff
you don't mind uh discussing this stuff but I was starting to think about what's
but I was starting to think about what's on your learning Edge when you think
on your learning Edge when you think about all this great stuff that you know
about all this great stuff that you know you apply and you seem you know able to
you apply and you seem you know able to spit out quite quickly and easily if you
spit out quite quickly and easily if you to think about what's
to think about what's challenging not only this but anything
challenging not only this but anything really for you personally around what
really for you personally around what what what are you trying to absorb right
what what are you trying to absorb right now or challenge yourself to think
now or challenge yourself to think differently around there is a book on
differently around there is a book on reading let me just grab the name of it
reading let me just grab the name of it um she's worked in systems for years um
um she's worked in systems for years um can't believe I can't remember name it's
can't believe I can't remember name it's embarrassing oh Alicia um Alicia jera
embarrassing oh Alicia um Alicia jera don't know if it's a name people know
don't know if it's a name people know about um she works in a small University
about um she works in a small University I think it's in Maryland um in America
I think it's in Maryland um in America she's a genius right because it's a
she's a genius right because it's a teaching University so she gets to
teaching University so she gets to research whatever she wants there's no
research whatever she wants there's no obligation that's why she chose that
obligation that's why she chose that University so she could look at whatever
University so she could look at whatever the hell she wants without any sort of
the hell she wants without any sort of obligations she looks at systems theory
obligations she looks at systems theory but in particular constraints and what
but in particular constraints and what she works on is the thinking about it's
she works on is the thinking about it's not just cause and effect that explains
not just cause and effect that explains the world it's the idea of the way
the world it's the idea of the way constraints sit in systems and that
constraints sit in systems and that affects the behaviors which in turn
affects the behaviors which in turn creates the system and the one of the
creates the system and the one of the classic metaphors she uses is a
classic metaphors she uses is a roundabout you drop a roundabout into a
roundabout you drop a roundabout into a road as compared to traffic lights
road as compared to traffic lights that's an example of a constraint but
that's an example of a constraint but don't think a constraint as in
don't think a constraint as in constricting people constrain is in it
constricting people constrain is in it constructs things and that's going to
constructs things and that's going to cause certain behaviors of the way
cause certain behaviors of the way people drive which in turn creates the
people drive which in turn creates the system by which people drive because
system by which people drive because that becomes the culture of it so that's
that becomes the culture of it so that's an example where I find her work
an example where I find her work fascinating because it almost feels like
fascinating because it almost feels like it's going beneath the surface again to
it's going beneath the surface again to say this is how this stuff works and the
say this is how this stuff works and the idea of dropping in constructive
idea of dropping in constructive constraints like if you think about a
constraints like if you think about a river and you put a rock in it that
river and you put a rock in it that causes things to change sometimes I
causes things to change sometimes I think that's what we're doing in terms
think that's what we're doing in terms of both running organizations or even
of both running organizations or even running our lives we're trying to put
running our lives we're trying to put stuff in to make the natural flow of
stuff in to make the natural flow of stuff go in a Direction that's more
stuff go in a Direction that's more suitable so yes that's where mine's
suitable so yes that's where mine's going at the moment where my mind is
going at the moment where my mind is just to read that and sort of see what
just to read that and sort of see what pops
up I'm just curious how that relates to you know snowden's work around enabling
you know snowden's work around enabling constraints and other things and thing
constraints and other things and thing yes that he talks same thing yeah Dave
yes that he talks same thing yeah Dave comes along with his incredibly bright
comes along with his incredibly bright and intelligent I I call him a um a
and intelligent I I call him a um a historical name dropper because he'll
historical name dropper because he'll say yeah we're applying the Aristotle
say yeah we're applying the Aristotle idea that Socrates did just like he
idea that Socrates did just like he drops all these names so quickly that
drops all these names so quickly that you can't really tell whether um yeah
you can't really tell whether um yeah he's looked at it or not so I respect
he's looked at it or not so I respect his mind and the way he puts that
his mind and the way he puts that together and Alicia's work talks about
together and Alicia's work talks about constraints in a similar way um I just
constraints in a similar way um I just find her work to be um I almost feel
find her work to be um I almost feel like it's more General than applicable
like it's more General than applicable so but Dave you work on esterine mapping
so but Dave you work on esterine mapping I can see the patents he's seeing in
I can see the patents he's seeing in that and that makes a bit of sense so
that and that makes a bit of sense so yeah that type of thing okay thanks yeah
yeah that type of thing okay thanks yeah Dave there a great debate on LinkedIn
Dave there a great debate on LinkedIn between Patrick who's my mate and and
between Patrick who's my mate and and Dave and Dave basically says you can't
Dave and Dave basically says you can't have a model because the model you're
have a model because the model you're it's basically acting like the world's
it's basically acting like the world's mechanical and the answer to that would
mechanical and the answer to that would be we're just applying the model to come
be we're just applying the model to come up with some ideas then we can try some
up with some ideas then we can try some stuff and see if it works because in the
stuff and see if it works because in the end it's just a
end it's just a model so it doesn't explain reality in
model so it doesn't explain reality in the end at all so yeah it's an
the end at all so yeah it's an interesting time isn't it got brains
interesting time isn't it got brains like Dave Snowden getting around and
like Dave Snowden getting around and this sort of stuff and um quite an
this sort of stuff and um quite an interesting
interesting timer yeah thanks actually as David talk
timer yeah thanks actually as David talk a lot about Alicia um he he keep
a lot about Alicia um he he keep referring Alicia's work about constr
referring Alicia's work about constr there you go yeah yeah now Alicia just
there you go yeah yeah now Alicia just uh her writing is heavy but if you're a
uh her writing is heavy but if you're a bit of a geek for this stuff like me I
bit of a geek for this stuff like me I kind of like that I'm going to read that
kind of like that I'm going to read that paragraph another two times and absorb
paragraph another two times and absorb it so yeah that that's what I find that
it so yeah that that's what I find that but of course the fun is then making it
but of course the fun is then making it useful for clients isn't it like to be
useful for clients isn't it like to be able to say so what this means is let's
able to say so what this means is let's try
through I've actually lost my my my oh there it is okay cool thanks for your
there it is okay cool thanks for your comment rck I saw
comment rck I saw that the
that the Thruster
Thruster yeah I like that my Dutch my Dutch
yeah I like that my Dutch my Dutch Heritage
Heritage yeah word is my favorite Dutch word is
yeah word is my favorite Dutch word is canal rck canal okay yeah
Canal yeah you got to say the g sound and the CH sound in the one word that's
and the CH sound in the one word that's brilliant yeah it's the same sound it's
brilliant yeah it's the same sound it's the same sound
the same sound yeah yeah thank you Adam um and also Al
yeah yeah thank you Adam um and also Al and Dave for hosting very very
and Dave for hosting very very insightful I'm very glad I joined so
insightful I'm very glad I joined so thanks for Joan lri for putting me on to
thanks for Joan lri for putting me on to this she suggested this
this she suggested this um this meet up to me so thanks cool a
um this meet up to me so thanks cool a pleasure definitely a pleasure I mean
pleasure definitely a pleasure I mean Jones Jones one of our speaker love
Jones Jones one of our speaker love night see Jon's joined us as well hi
night see Jon's joined us as well hi Joan oh hi
John just for those who might not have seen it alad put a comment up in um in
seen it alad put a comment up in um in the comments Alicia talking about
the comments Alicia talking about constraints I haven't seen that video
constraints I haven't seen that video but um yeah just an idea of to Alicia
but um yeah just an idea of to Alicia stuff's just great so um yeah it's
stuff's just great so um yeah it's really worth a
look okay maybe one more question I'm going to encourage I'm going to
going to encourage I'm going to encourage one more question see if
encourage one more question see if anybody's somebody's got something on
anybody's somebody's got something on the tip of their tongue they're dying
the tip of their tongue they're dying Bernie looks like she's leaning forward
Bernie looks like she's leaning forward maybe I'm not sure or she might just be
maybe I'm not sure or she might just be watching the TV I'm not
watching the TV I'm not sure one more no I was just cu ious what
sure one more no I was just cu ious what is next because I actually have to leave
is next because I actually have to leave very soon but um I did pop the question
very soon but um I did pop the question uh earlier about the merger if anyone
uh earlier about the merger if anyone had experience doing a merger because I
had experience doing a merger because I was trying to figure it out what what is
was trying to figure it out what what is broken in the if it is still viable even
broken in the if it is still viable even because I it looks like my company um or
because I it looks like my company um or the company that I'm working for um I'm
the company that I'm working for um I'm not too sure if it's going to be viable
not too sure if it's going to be viable anymore but definitely not in the way
anymore but definitely not in the way that it is right now yeah so so but what
that it is right now yeah so so but what what's normally occurring there is um
what's normally occurring there is um you've got the system threes that are
you've got the system threes that are pulling against each other
pulling against each other so yeah exactly you're trying to make an
so yeah exactly you're trying to make an actual viable system to start with and
actual viable system to start with and the difficulty is it's an arbitrary
the difficulty is it's an arbitrary Point any given system what you define
Point any given system what you define as the system you could just make it
as the system you could just make it yourself you could make it the whole
yourself you could make it the whole world um so without realizing it people
world um so without realizing it people just using normal words but they're
just using normal words but they're having a battle for what is the system
having a battle for what is the system itself that's that's what's occurring so
itself that's that's what's occurring so it's it can be tricky but if a group can
it's it can be tricky but if a group can see that's what's going on sometimes it
see that's what's going on sometimes it can change the conversation which can
can change the conversation which can then lead them to
then lead them to hopefully a blinding flash of the
hopefully a blinding flash of the obvious but often I think that's use of
obvious but often I think that's use of this sort of stuff is if they can
this sort of stuff is if they can approach it from a different angle which
approach it from a different angle which is you're all seeing this thing but this
is you're all seeing this thing but this is what you're seeing that can perhaps
is what you're seeing that can perhaps pull them out of the idea of well I want
pull them out of the idea of well I want to wear a red t-shirt well I want to
to wear a red t-shirt well I want to wear a blue one Red's better Blue's
wear a blue one Red's better Blue's better you know which is kind of where
better you know which is kind of where tends to end up um Benny um one point is
tends to end up um Benny um one point is also about system five quite often what
also about system five quite often what I realize when the companies join they
I realize when the companies join they have very different identity Athos
have very different identity Athos culture very very little and and and
culture very very little and and and also look the way they they used to work
also look the way they they used to work together the way they the things they
together the way they the things they pay attention to this the way they see
pay attention to this the way they see their identity is very different very
their identity is very different very little work is usually done during those
little work is usually done during those merges they usually look at how do we
merges they usually look at how do we merge the it system so we get some
merge the it system so we get some efficiencies Etc um a really good way to
efficiencies Etc um a really good way to address that is Run a search conference
address that is Run a search conference help the different group to come
help the different group to come together for a more Collective desirable
together for a more Collective desirable future right right that's a good search
future right right that's a good search conference from osc is one of the really
conference from osc is one of the really really good ways post measures and
really good ways post measures and Acquisitions yeah hey Al that's a really
Acquisitions yeah hey Al that's a really good point in a way it's a system five
good point in a way it's a system five battle yeah yeah could be system five
battle yeah yeah could be system five yes yeah I think it's both them in my
yes yeah I think it's both them in my case because I'm like recognizing
case because I'm like recognizing obvious while was system three I already
obvious while was system three I already had recognized but you have a point on
had recognized but you have a point on system five thanks for that it's
system five thanks for that it's definitely there because one of the
definitely there because one of the discussions right now it's about um if
discussions right now it's about um if we are going to exist in the way so
we are going to exist in the way so that's the question right are we going
that's the question right are we going to exist in the way that we previously
to exist in the way that we previously existed which is a purpose which is
existed which is a purpose which is system five yeah and actually what one
system five yeah and actually what one thing I didn't mention on the way
thing I didn't mention on the way through is um um Stafford be would draw
through is um um Stafford be would draw a link between system five and system
a link between system five and system one to say you could say what you're
one to say you could say what you're doing and all that sort of stuff but but
doing and all that sort of stuff but but what are you actually providing to the
what are you actually providing to the world yeah and then when that circles
world yeah and then when that circles has Integrity it works out well yeah
has Integrity it works out well yeah true okay thanks for that my
true okay thanks for that my experience my experience with merger
experience my experience with merger it's also both systems sort of need to
it's also both systems sort of need to end for a new one to appear and that's
end for a new one to appear and that's hard you have the loss of the ending of
hard you have the loss of the ending of both the separate systems and a new one
both the separate systems and a new one yeah so you have the fighting of course
yeah so you have the fighting of course because I don't want to
because I don't want to die well we know case I don't think I
die well we know case I don't think I don't think ours is going to survive
don't think ours is going to survive because we're much
because we're much smaller it's Essen a very big old
smaller it's Essen a very big old Corporation buying a startup right so
Corporation buying a startup right so it's kind of like
it's kind of like ended really that's what I'm thinking
ended really that's what I'm thinking but definitely the five is what's coming
but definitely the five is what's coming up now and I don't think we will survive
up now and I don't think we will survive based on that b based on money size you
based on that b based on money size you know and all of the resources that it's
know and all of the resources that it's on the one that acquired the startup
on the one that acquired the startup right and there such a good point that
right and there such a good point that Rick mate yeah because you're talking
Rick mate yeah because you're talking about the death a death hereit it's a
about the death a death hereit it's a death of identity which needs to be
death of identity which needs to be worked through yeah yeah it is and hence
worked through yeah yeah it is and hence what you said about system five the
what you said about system five the purpose is almost close to your identity
purpose is almost close to your identity yeah yeah problem is in the past someone
yeah yeah problem is in the past someone at the top tried to impose a new
at the top tried to impose a new identity and depending on from which
identity and depending on from which side they come from they try to impose
side they come from they try to impose that identity as opposed to okay now we
that identity as opposed to okay now we are a new organization let's come
are a new organization let's come together and agree on what our new
together and agree on what our new identity should look like what is that
identity should look like what is that more desirable future for all of us look
more desirable future for all of us look like and then walk back forth from that
like and then walk back forth from that so anyway that's
so anyway that's a so just to add to that uh I love that
a so just to add to that uh I love that topic too in um in OS language for those
topic too in um in OS language for those that are familiar with that you know
that are familiar with that you know there's a thing called land workor where
there's a thing called land workor where you can get people to understand their
you can get people to understand their cultures and understand what's good and
cultures and understand what's good and bad about them and then talk about what
bad about them and then talk about what do you want to actually create together
do you want to actually create together and so that's just working on the
and so that's just working on the relationship only not the the structural
relationship only not the the structural elements but just the relationship side
elements but just the relationship side which probably is closely linked to
which probably is closely linked to purpose and identity as well because of
purpose and identity as well because of of that but it it looks at just that
of that but it it looks at just that particular aspect the relationship
particular aspect the relationship between
between people very nice yeah
people very nice yeah nice thanks for that Adam brilant thank
nice thanks for that Adam brilant thank you oh
you oh pleasure unfortunately I need to leave
pleasure unfortunately I need to leave because I have a meeting open right in
because I have a meeting open right in front of West it's
front of West it's 9:30 and Jo to give you a very to give
9:30 and Jo to give you a very to give you very quick answer Joan often system
you very quick answer Joan often system to coordination Rules of Engagement and
to coordination Rules of Engagement and policy contracts keeps things or keeps
policy contracts keeps things or keeps things coordinated so but it could be
things coordinated so but it could be any of them but mainly system to is
any of them but mainly system to is where we find those sort of
okay thank you so much Adam it's uh 7:30 here in Sydney um one and a half hour
here in Sydney um one and a half hour thank you everyone for staying this long
thank you everyone for staying this long and thanks Adam that was fascinating
and thanks Adam that was fascinating like I said one of the best uh VSM talks
like I said one of the best uh VSM talks I've ever heard um and and thanks also
I've ever heard um and and thanks also to the participants you really really
to the participants you really really good questions and um and very relevant
good questions and um and very relevant so I learn equally from the questions
so I learn equally from the questions and from the answers so I appreciate
and from the answers so I appreciate that my favorite bit the
questions cool cool all right well maybe with that
cool cool all right well maybe with that we we say thank you everybody for coming
we we say thank you everybody for coming tonight as particularly Adam uh and
tonight as particularly Adam uh and sharing your your brilliant mind with us
sharing your your brilliant mind with us and doing it in a way that actually um I
and doing it in a way that actually um I think made it easy for people to really
think made it easy for people to really get um into the world of VM so maybe a
get um into the world of VM so maybe a vir clap for for Adam please or if you
vir clap for for Adam please or if you come off mute and that's fine as well um
come off mute and that's fine as well um thank
thank you cool um we'll get the video up as
you cool um we'll get the video up as soon as aliad myself and M can get must
soon as aliad myself and M can get must the strength to do the the editing and
the strength to do the the editing and put it up there and uh we'll let
put it up there and uh we'll let everybody in the group know when that's
everybody in the group know when that's done too so thank you again Adam and
done too so thank you again Adam and everybody who's joined us pleasure thank
everybody who's joined us pleasure thank you thank
you thank you
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