This episode of the Black Soldierfly Leaders Podcast features Ruong Zeng, who shares insights into the Chinese black soldierfly (BSF) industry, her career journey, and the technical and economic aspects of BSF farming, emphasizing the potential for growth and sustainability.
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Hello. On this latest episode of the
Black Soldierfly Leaders Podcast, I have
with me someone who I have mentioned in
a previous episode um when talking about
the Chinese black soldierfly industry.
So, let me introduce Ruong Zeng. I hope
I've pronounced that right. Um Ruong,
how you doing?
Hey David, thanks for the introduction
and it's very nice pronunciation. I
wouldn't expect more. Um, thanks for
inviting me here and yes indeed. Um,
it's a great honor to be here with you
today and let's follow up on what you
have mentioned earlier and to look
deeper into the Chinese industry today.
Also uh share a bit of my views on how
this industry can have a bright bright
future. Um that's and let's start.
>> Cool. Positivity. That's a good place to
start from. First of all, the qu first
question I ask all of my guests is can
you tell us how you landed into the
black soldier fly industry in the first?
>> That's a really good question. I have
the feeling that my fate is a little bit
um connected to BSF since a long time.
say I grew up in a place called Wuhan. I
guess I don't need to further introduce
the city now because the whole world
knows the name.
>> World famous,
>> very famous place. A place changed a lot
Wuhan is somehow the capital of the
academia of BSF of China in terms of crisper
crisper
uh BSF strengths in terms of waste
management because of Hajjong
Agricultural University is the center of
the BF BSF research in China and
and
coincidentally I graduated from that
place. I did my bachelor in that place.
the second insect feed award conference
was organized in that university as well
and that's exactly the moment I graduated.
graduated.
Um afterwards I went to Wakaninga
University in the Netherland to study
animal nutrition. In the very beginning
I was not even thinking about I'm going
to do BSF or something. I was thinking
about okay I'm going to do animal feed.
Uh maybe I'll work for pigs or maybe I
work for chicken. And when we were
choosing CESIS, we need to find a
supervisor. I was I run into the
gentleman called Dennis Onyx, another
big name in the industry. Um well, and
from that moment onward, I stepped into
the BSF uh BSF industry and fortunately
I developed uh I developed quite some
knowledge before the season starts. Like
everything I learned about animal
nutrition helped me a lot for the
nutrition, how to do a right diet for
the larve, how to boost the the growth,
how to um use the least amount of money
to grow the largest amount of larvi.
This is whole concept of animal
nutrition. It really helped my career in
the later stage. And it's also when I
entered the BSF industry, I realized
okay actually I'm graduated from a place
where the BSF was a big topic which is
my bachelor university which it is
somehow is connected you know afterwards
I did my my internship in protex I
managed to stay in projects of my
internship that was 2020 where Wuhan was
the most famous city of the world.
It's not easy to find a job and I was
really lucky. I got a nutrition
nutritionist job in products and I
stayed on that position for five years
and I left this year in June. I'm
becoming a freelancer because I feel
like I can contribute more to the
industry now and indust the industry at
this moment needs me to provide
something to make it different. Uh well
I think that's basically how I landed in
the BSF uh BSF industry and I also
believe that um it's not a coincidence
because let's say when we were kids um
other children make just watching
cartoon or playing some toys for the
whole day. Okay. And for me, since when
I was four years old, I was just going
to bring two cubes of candy and bring a
chair going to the garden and throw the
the candy in front of the the nest of
the ant and observing them observing the
behavior of the ants for let's say three
four hours the whole afternoon will be
gone. Um and at that moment I know that
I wanted to work with animals and maybe
I want to work with insects. So you know
when the opportunity came it's like okay
I can choose pigs I can choose chicken I
can choose BSF I choose the insect side
without any hesitation because it's
inside of me
>> fantastic and and at Wuhan you did your
bachelor's in animal nutrition as well
as in vagoning as well
>> actually not uh in Wuhan I did my
bachelor in biotechnology
um because that was that's was the most
uh let's say the reputation of that
institute of Hajong agri agricultural
university they have the greatest
reputation okay um so basically if you
study in that institute they can
guarantee you uh master study right
after your bachelor study um
>> okay and biotechnology
have can you use some of that learnings
in in the industry you're in now
>> for from there I did got in touch with
professors such as Lu Jung which made a
lot of publication in the industry but
that's that study is mostly focused on
molecular biology how to do GMO etc. I
was not fascinated about it um that's
why for the last two years of my study
during my bachelors I started to switch
all my courses to the animal science
department and then I made a bridge to
animal nutrition and afterwards I made
made a bridge to insect nutrition. Okay.
So, there's there's quite a clear
pathway into insect nutrition, which is
interesting. And you were a nutritionist
at Protex for quite a while, uh, in in
the grand scheme of the black soldierfly
industry. Anyway, um, could you tell us
a bit about your experiences at Protex, please?
please?
>> Protex really gave me a privilege in
developing my knowledge.
Many thanks to Protex actually. Um, so
back in the days, um, I think I was
fortunate enough to, um, to be on the
front line of production
for for almost 5 years, let's say. Uh,
Protix opened up the the big factory in
2019 and I think is operating like
officially operating in 2020 after the
construction and everything. I joined
Prox in 2020 and the early beginning I
was at the old site where most of people
move to the new sites. Um so somehow I
have a empty empty production site in
front of me. I can just check everything
and see how everything work to
understand how is the current system
were developed. You know like I see the
prototype now you have the commercial
type. I I see the prototype and we were
able and then during that time the R&D
facility in the new factory was not a
set not set it up. So I have the entire
old facility that I can study and I can
run test inside and from there I I I I
started to know like okay you can
actually re LV from a really simple
setup which is a lot of people at this
part a lot most of people in products
wouldn't know it because they directly
join the new site and from from that
point we you know we still have the silo
we have all these possibilities all the
facilities is to make a feed
makes a workflow. So it it opened up a
lot of possibilities for me to explore.
Okay, I can get ingredient from A, I got
ingredient from B. This one is really
sticky. The other one is hard solid. The
second one is super liquid. It's like
water and how I can play with the
texture and how would that impact the
larvi activity. Okay, I started
everything from there. I gained a lot of
knowledge from there and after one and
one year and one and a half year
actually I moved to the new sites and
the moment I landed there I'm starting
to be exposed to the production problems
for example okay we have crazy ammonia
the operators are complaining about it
what can we do about it okay today the
pump is not working can we play around
the dry matter to make it work without
damaging without damaging the production
uh efficiency see without uh causing
crow out of the larvi etc. we start to
getting exposure of all these kind of
practical problems and the R&D
department I stayed in it's more of like
a let's say half more than half of my
time I'm a problem solver like I see
problem in the factory I run some trial
I come up with a solution we do it so it
it allowed me to know a lot of
operational experience and how to solve
the problems and on the other part I I
was able to develop my feed, develop my
feed calculator, uh understanding what
is the best nutritional profile of the
larby to grow as big as possible. And
then of course you bring uh all these
ingredient and the nutritional profile
into a calculator with your price and
you with all these prices you going to
make a predictions of how much lar you
can produce with how much money and of
course you're going to run validation
tests. If it's running good, you need to
spend time to implement it in the
factory. Uh help the operators to
understand how it works, what's the
difference, what's going to what's the
impact it's going to be on the climate
setting, how much it would influence our
pump, can our pipes handle it. So I
would say I was in a really really
privileged position to really understand
how black soldier fly uh farming works
and of course from that I understand the
concept and and also allowed me to
understand how good is a system when I'm
when I'm looking at it and it helped me
a lot when for the past two years when
I'm watching the ch the system the
Chinese has built I can directly see
from okay if If you do things this way,
the lary may die. If you do things that
way, maybe they're going to be
dehydrated. The all this knowledge I
gained in produce products is priceless.
And uh I really appreciate the the time
and experience I have gained um during
the products time.
>> Wow. I've got like a thousand questions
from that. That was awesome. Um first of
all, so you've worked from the prototype
stage into the larger factory. Um,
do you see major differences in in the
problems that you get in a prototype
versus the problems you get in a larger
or or for example if can you get
something perfect in the prototype that
just doesn't work on a larger scale?
>> Um, let's say uh we know that we are
using the the crate system in projects. Okay.
Okay.
>> Mhm. I do believe that uh like
if you have let's say 10 crates to run
okay and you make make it bigger make it
100 maybe it's still okay but the moment
you make it 10,000
I think it's going to be some
difficulties because you need to really
do a lot of you need to really push the
engineering team to work very hard to
make sure okay there's homogeneity in
the climate climate and the capacities
is okay. U if we want if you want to
design something with certain airflow do
can you even have enough airflow for all
these crates? I I think uh the reason
why we have a prototype is the prototype
can help you evaluate how it's going to
be to build a bigger facility and once
you build a big facility I think it's a
big challenge for the engineers because
all the capacities needs to go up and
they also want to control the cost. I
think that's the main difference. But of
course you um the whole reason of you
having a prototype factory is to make
your bigger factory successful. So
that's the goal.
>> Yeah. Yes. Of course. it I guess the
question was more around that kind of
scaling up like scaling up the prototype
to the larger scale and and the problems
that many companies have faced as a
result but it sounds like you've
improved you've gone along that
improvement curve personally um do you
feel like prot also went along that
curve massively and everyone there must
be must have so much knowledge of how to
grow black soldierfly because of all of these
these
um crazy challenges that they faced.
>> I think so. I think so. Like all the
people who went through let's say was
stay in projects from 2019 till 2022
I think they experienced that.
>> Yes. Yes. Um so in terms of nutrition um
what what what do you find as the the
most important things? So, we're talking
quite technically here and I'm not just
talking about the kind of
macronutrition, but perhaps also the,
you know, you mentioned the texture, so
physical properties, maybe even chemical
properties. I'm not sure. But, um, yeah,
talk to me about that.
>> I think the texture is the most
important thing because with really
thick texture, I think Martin actually
published published something or at
least he showed it in the conferences.
Martin no from Riploid now used to be
his knowledge
>> um of course uh in his research he
realized that um if you have really like
a sick uh feed for insect it's very
likely you're going to add a lot of heat
production in the end because because of
the microbial activity and that is going
to poses that poses a lot of threat to
your climate system because coding takes
money. You need to be able or so either
you have really strong fan to blow all
the heat away so you cool them down or
you need to have cooling cooling
compartment which means air condition or
any kind of things. So it's very energy
intense. It doesn't make any sense. Um
>> yes there was one there was one person I
spoke to who who uh was looking was in
Finland. I think we know the Finnish
producers or providers anyway and saying
that even in basically the Arctic Circle
where Santa Claus is from um it they
were you they were cooling it. So it
just just showcases how much focus you
need on on heating but also cooling.
Anyway, I I interrupted you. Sorry. Uh
of of exactly and I think that's one of
the biggest thing actually. Okay, let's
let's go enter another angle. Okay, I
think the cooling thing is what is
challenging. Why do we need such a crazy
lar uh ring density at this point?
Because higher the density, the more
heat it will be produced and which
meaning you need to spend more either
more energy or you need a bigger land
just to let them cool just let them cool
down. Um from my point of view I think
even though some places they have very
expensive land and I still don't believe
like I personally don't believe we need
to put the ring density that high
because we need to we just need to
calculate the the finance calculate how
much how much is for cooling how much is
for for the land. I I'm personally I'm
more biased to the theory that the um
high density doesn't it's not worth it because
because
um because you mostly build your factory
in the sub area like in the corner of of
the city or in the corner of the sub
area of the city so the land should be
cheaper otherwise people will complain
about your smell and etc. So let's say
cooling is a big problem and the rearing
density maybe it's better to go lower.
That's my personal view. And we go back
to the topic about texture.
Um okay sick texture may produce a lot
of heat and sin texture is very watery
and the chance of crow will be
increased. So first
>> rong sorry to introduce introduce you.
What do you mean by sin texture?
>> Uh watery. Let's say watery. Like say
let's say say you put them you put them
on a whisometer the wis cometer show you
a low value.
>> Okay. So um and so for all of the
listeners understanding but but most of
all mine um there's a difference between
watery and moisture content right
because a carrot for example is um is a
solid object but it's 90% moisture
>> but something can be very watery but but
there's a separation between the solid
and the water. Is that right?
>> Yes, exactly. Um, basically you can have
something with very low dry matter but
really really solid. You can also have
something let's say even a 40% dry
matter inside but they look super liquid.
liquid.
>> So then what what's
>> dry dramatic content is not directly
connected to the texture.
>> Okay. So so what's more important then
the um the wateriness for layman's turns
or the moisture?
the first one because what we have are
focusing here is to make sure they don't
come they don't crawl out
>> and they crawl out because of the higher wateriness.
wateriness.
The thing is a lari can only crawl up
like a vertically on the moist surface
and if you have a lot of like a water
staying on floating on the top of your
substrate it will be easier for the lar
to go out
>> and it's there it's the nature to to
walk around. It's either you have really
warm warm feet and it's really cold
outside and they don't want to stay in a
warm place and maybe you can have more
tolerance to the watery uh substrate
>> or or you know it's like a similar temperature
temperature
like from outside inside and it's very
watery inside it's okay I feel
comfortable staying here I feel
comfortable staying there then they're
gonna come out and you don't want the l
to come out because if they cur out,
they're going to become a like if
they're big, they're going to become
pubate. They're going to fly around if
it's going to be annoying and also it's
not going to end up in your in your
output of your product. It's just boss.
Um, okay. That's the texture, I think.
Any questions?
>> No, no, that make makes perfect sense.
Um, and and um I mean I just stir my
substrate when it's too watery and you
know, a lot of people do mix it. Is that
the best way to um reduce that problem?
>> That's definitely a way to go, but the
dry ingredient is always expensive and
then Okay, so can you find a cheap
ingredient and it's allowed by law?
Okay, that's a question. For example,
you can go to slaughtery house, you can
say, okay, I I want the hair of the pig
and I'm going to grind it and then you
have very like of dry stuff. You can
absorb a lot of water and you put it in.
Okay, it works. E will not allow you to
do that. Never you UK will not allow you
to do that. Forget it.
>> You cannot even use sawdust in the
commercial production I guess.
>> Um yeah it's the regulation in the west
is a little bit [ __ ] but anyway we
know that everybody knows that. Um and
then what can and and then I think some
Chinese people did developed this funny
system. the the bottom of the crate is a mesh.
mesh.
>> So the excess water will drip.
>> Drip one layer, one layer, one layer
till the bottom they have a collection trench
trench
>> and it goes away.
>> And does that work?
>> It works really well actually. >> Really?
>> Really?
>> So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like all the excess
water will just be dripping dripping
dripping until the bottom
>> Yeah. Wow.
>> Yeah. It works. And then and then
actually what you've got at the bottom
is probably a really nutritious kind of
tea of that you can spread on on land as
a liquid fertilizer. I don't know perhaps
perhaps
>> I to I totally agree with you. Um but
okay for their case they don't care
because it's waste management. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. They they got let's say they like
this company they got 130 tons of
garbage like catering with garbage from
the from the city every day and the
Chinese sortings um is is a joke. So in
the garbage you can see chopsticks,
plastics, glass
you know anything you can see in the
restaurant you name it you can see all
of them inside. Okay. And
>> the purity of the organic matter is low
and uh and then you know after that you
got a 50 tons of the slurry and their
job is to get rid of the slurry for the
government and of course we're going to
leak a lot of water away but they don't
care. They just want to deal with the slurry.
slurry.
>> So they're they're on a government
contract basically. Um Rulong we'll come
on to China in a bit but let's go back
to nutrition. So you were talking about
the difference between the physical and
the biological aspects of the feed
stock. So is what else have you got to
share there?
>> I mean I think nutritional profile is
very important because with bad
nutrition the lobby wouldn't grow well.
You need a balanced diet and also
consider the price and I I don't think
we can always do the optimal nutritional
profile for the larve because of the
limiting of the prices and the
availability and the volume of uh what
is possible locally
but we should you know we should
calculate the trade-off and then aim for
what is the suboptimal option and apply it.
it.
>> Yeah. Okay. what what I have um
problems understanding or how we're
going to overcome it. It's a challenge
with the industry is if you're taking in
proper waste, you know, um maybe it's
council food waste or um I I don't know
what it is, but you get you might get a
lot of seasonality in that waste and and
so you get a lot of variances and
differences and as that changes your
product output is going to be different,
right? How how in your view do you
manage that?
Uh I think we we should firstly focus in
on what is the seasonality.
Um if we say we're taking the restaurant
waste okay waste um seasonality might be
the vegetables because some vegetables
belongs to the spring mushrooms in
autumn and winter you have winter vegetables.
vegetables. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> What is the content of the vegetables is
water plus some plus fiber. Some of them
has a little bit additional sugar.
That's it. So, as a nutritionist, it's
basically the same thing for me. It may
result in something different in terms
of texture. Um, I mean, the pork you eat
in spring wouldn't be different with the
pork you eat in winter, right? And the
rice or the bread, they're just high
carb, high like a high content of
carbohydrate. they're basically the same
following the season. The only thing I
see that will vary a lot is the vegetable.
vegetable.
Um so in that sense maybe the
seasonality is not a big challenge. And
what would be the big challenge is that
if some region they have they have this
habit to eat more meat in summer, eat
less meat in winter. That would be a
challenge. and and then I think we need
to build a database to make make like to
to do record of okay how this going to
be what is the average in January what's
the average in February we have this
data and then we say okay I can
compensate this diet with this
compensate with that in another months
and you know it takes maybe one or two
years to stabilize a entire production
production line but I think it will work
>> yeah and I guess I
if insect farming was to become a thing
um in the future, you know, in the in
the mainstream and perhaps we would have
different grades of black soldierfly
protein or oil or whatever it is a bit
like we have in arable farming, well all
kinds of farming, but you know, in
arable farming depending on the harvest
of that year, it greatly influences the
or the weather and all of other factors
greatly influence the quality. And so,
you know, your wheat might go for um
pasta or or for bread or whatever, or it
might just go to animal feed because it
doesn't quite make the cut. And that's
the challenge that they're dealing with,
and that will be the challenge that
insect farmers have to deal with. And
perhaps that's where it where it will
go. Um Rulong, moving on. So, you
recently organized and hosted a
conference in China. Can you tell me a
bit about that and how it went? and and
and before you do, congratulations for
organizing it. I hear it went really
really well.
>> Thanks for that. Thanks for that. Uh
actually, I did hoped um you know, I'm
not organizing it myself. I worked with
the Chinese association to do it. I did
hope they would reduce the content of
the traditional Chinese stuff like
getting the senior people to give talks
and five people talking about the same [ __ ]
[ __ ]
I I didn't like that. But um I think the
the part I helped to organize was I I
mean I am happy with it. So um before I
stepped into this um I have a friend called
called
um he used to be working for projects as
well. Um he's expert in doing processing
like how to do wet rendering how to do
dry rendering of the protein meal.
That's my friend. He told me something
like you're doing this now. Can you make
it less academia? I don't want to go to
a conference to hear people talking
about how to make a cookie out of insect
meal. I want to I want to see how you
develop a BSF industry.
>> And I said, okay, thanks for the advice.
I will keep that in mind and I will not
let you down. So the entire entire
conference is very is super industrial.
And that's a starting point.
>> Sure. And just just to be clear, we want
academics, don't we? But we also want
people in the industry and we want a mix
and we want us all to get on, don't we?
>> I think what to recommend is like he
wants the academia to also talk about
how to boost efficiency, not talking
about some product we will not see on
the market in 20 years or something.
>> Fair enough. Fair enough.
>> Yeah. So yeah. Okay. Starting from there
and then I was looking at uh looking at
the schedule. I I was like why are you
guys just arrange it uh 3 months before
it will happen. This is this is going to
cut like got everybody off guard because
people mostly plan their uh visits or
their conference a year before. Um but
this very typically Chinese is I think a
cultural thing. The Chinese like to just
do something and they like to arrange
something in on a short period of time,
go there, finish it and go home. That
that's that's really cultural. I
understand. I look at it as like okay I
want to make this uh something
important. I want to uh help the
industry to go forward. This is a year
we see a lot of bankruptcy, a lot of bad
news coming into the industry.
I was looking at it like okay China is a
place where BSF is actually making um
making let's say positive money or let's
say they're profitable
can we you know can can I expose this
part to the rest of the world I think it
will be important for the industry now
um then I look at it that's like okay
what do people want to see they want to
see how the production is done there and
you are not see that in a conference.
That's why I had a lot of calls and a
lot of negotiations with the association
and the other company to say hey can you
arrange a tool for the people to just to
to take a look because I you don't need
to show them commercial details but
people wants to know how it can be done
and you you guys are claiming you can
make a lot of money uh
you should let people know it and then
firstly it helps you to sell your products
products
And secondly, it helps you to sell your
solutions, your best of systems. It it's
going to be good for you and the people
wants to see that and it's going to get
attention. I think it's a win-win for
almost everybody.
>> And also when you've got people from all
over the world in the black soldierfly
industry coming to look at your factory
or site, they can give you loads of
information as to how you can do it
better, right? And that's the beauty of
knowledge sharing. It's there's there's
win-win and and I think the industry
needs a lot more of it. A lot more. And
this so this is great. Carry on.
>> Yeah. Exactly. That's so I I think I
made maybe 20 calls during that like two
or three days and okay I got a bunch of
company agreed. Okay. We are going to
host them. We're going to invite them
for meal. It's very it's very kind of
them actually and we want to have
discussions about what to do and we want
to help the global industry not only for
themselves. I think a lot of them are
great people. They worked in BSF for 10
20 years. They want to see it grow and
then of course it's better for their
pocket because if you can sell your
system it's it's good for you. I mean
okay then we agreed on that and then I
made a really tight schedule for the
people to visit.
I think in the beginning the association
people like why are you pushing people
so hard I was like you know a lot of
people who come to see what it is
they're going to have very senior
position in the company they have a lot
of things to do if you don't make it
tight wouldn't they wouldn't show up
okay then basically we're just traveling
the whole time without sleeping and
everybody got sick in the end but we
managed to see a lot of factories
yeah that's what's the starting point
you know we got two tours like we do
like I think four sites visiting before
the conference then you do two days
conference and you have another three
sites visiting so that was a entire week.
week. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> Um yeah
>> that sounds awesome. Sounds like you
know there's so much to learn there from
all all sides and the tours sound great
and perhaps we need to do that somewhere
else not just China. Um I hear India's
got a booming industry. I I don't know
that. I just I just hear it. Um I know
for sure that East Africa, where I went
there, South Africa, there's there's
loads going on in those countries. Um
and and in Europe as well, there's
there's obviously a lot of attention on
Europe, a lot of investment,
but unfortunately in Europe, there
doesn't seem to be that much of an open
dialogue around
um opening doors and things. And I it's
a shame really and I think we should we
should Dean Smorenberg was episode four
of this sorry episode three of my
podcast and he said to me and he said to
me a few times this isn't a winner takes
all industry and so if it's not winner
takes all then we should actually be
sharing what we're doing and and the the
headroom for growth in this industry if
we want to be serious and compete with
soy well soy is billions of pounds and
we're millions if that there's so much
headroom room to go into. So why are we
trying to keep everything to ourselves?
I get the strong IP, but most stuff
really isn't IP. It's just how you do
business. It's how you get funding. It's
um it's the network you make make and
the products and sales you develop.
That's that's it really. It's just
standard business doing it well. Um but
yeah so and and from the feedback what
did you find in that was most valuable
from your attendees was it the
conference or was it the visits?
Uh I think for me it's a visit. Um and
let's just be really honest I was not
really like super paying a lot of
attention during the conference because
um before the conference start um I
arranged like five sections like talking
about different parts of the the
industry and how you do it. You got a
mixture of academia people and uh
industry people. Um and the way we did
do the conference are also different.
It's basically everybody have five to 10
minutes to talk about their stories
about what they want to what they want
to share and afterwards you're going to
get seven to 10 people sitting sitting
on the stage do a panel talk everybody
discussing everything with each other.
That's basically how it's done for every
for every section. And that is a great
idea from the Chinese association.
Actually I was not convinced in the
beginning but I think uh it's it's a
great credit to them. I think that the
develop it's very different with what we
see in a normal conferences normally you
got like every section you got three
person talking about a presentation and
people start just to fall asleep and the
Chinese one it helps really helps you to
to stay concentrated. I think that was
great. Um and and before that before the
conference starts I basically I I can
read the content of everybody's like a
material for the conference and
everybody's super industrial even the
Chinese academia they are super
industrial because the Chinese
professors they already practical people
they know that they earn much more money
from the industry by being a consultant
so they are super industrial um so I
kind of know the content already that's
why I didn't pay that much attention
during the conference but uh here's
what's what's my take way from the from
the entire tool.
I think they gave me a way of thinking.
They they teached me a way of thinking.
They you could grow the insect on the in
a pit, you know, just digging a pit on
the ground. It it's possibly produced that
that
>> as in just on the floor with a small
concrete barrier or something.
>> Yes. And we call them pit farms.
And that way of production I say is very
agricultural. It's like you growing
crops in the in the field. Okay. Super agricultural.
agricultural.
And a lot of Chinese system they
this is the the review from Paul Hman
from Entocycle. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> He said I can see the trace of them
automated everything from a manual
experience. I like that's a really such
a nice description about it. Like it is
>> say that again. Reong. Sorry.
>> The chain systems are a result of
automation from the manual way of production.
production. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Thinking about you were doing pit farms
and now you have two layer pit, three
layer pit pitform
>> and then you get rid of all the problems
and in the end you made it automated.
That's how the system there were developed.
developed.
So the pit so the sorry for my
misunderstanding the pits eventually
have been layered on top of each other or
>> let's say um we visit visited companies
and you have the companies who like of
course it's multi-layer rearing with
their automate like a full automated system
system
>> like a vertical farming one.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh like a that's like
a builder embedded insect solution. you
have like multiple layers of BSL
production. Um, and of course the
Chinese ones look very different with
the European ones and Paul Hman he's a
great engineer of course that's why he
the the way he thinks about is
fascinating. He started thinking about
how the system like where's the idea of
the system coming from and he said okay
they basically automated how can you
produce lavi manually and I think that's
a really great description and
>> it is and of course this just a
different pathway of how you develop a
system and they they just cheaper the same
same
and and of course okay and we go back to
the topic
In the beginning I said you can grow BSF
in agricultural way
way
and and now we also see the chance that
you can grow it in an industrial way
because let's just check the the factory
of projects inova agonutri
like all of them they just is ag it's
industrial it's no longer agricultural. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
They taught me something like okay when
you look into an industry industry or
product uh there's two factors that is
most important. The first factor is the
stability. The stability of production
the stability of your quality the the
stability of the quality of the product.
That's the stability side. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Second is cost. This is really Chinese
mindset like just look at how they
produce the cars and everything
everything plastic or everything like
made in China is based on these two uh
mindset that's how you were able to
produce cheap and how you just how you
able to how you able to produce in large
volume and how you are able to compete
on the globalization environment
and of course they are putting this
mindset into the PSF farming the
industrialized PSF farming as well. Um,
and I learned it I I learned this
mindset from them. I say, "Okay, that's
the reason why you are producing your L
is so cheap and you're selling your L so
cheap and that's that is why your BSF
system is so cheap. It's totally from
this mindset. It's that's the beginning
point of it. I think that's the biggest
learning for me.
>> Could could um could someone in the
Netherlands do it at the same cost?"
Okay. Actually, um, forget the price of
feed stock because that's regulatory.
You know, we're talking about
automation. Could someone in
the Netherlands do it if they have the
same feed stock price?
>> I think it's hard. >> Why?
>> Why? >> So,
>> So,
uh, let's say the Chinese system are
heavily relying on metals. So
>> in terms of the the the setter,
>> the the factory equipment, the Chinese
barely use plastics besides Inspro.
Inspro is using plastic trays and almost
everybody else is using iron iron stuff
like big gi gigantic
um gigantic crates with like a six
square meters surface and entirely like
a stainless steel and um okay
>> so just from the material perspective
it's already not possible and then uh
you can think about the Chinese was
allowed to use the ground water for
cooling which will be really hard to get
a permit in the west
and they were allowed to um they were
allowed to do many things the west
wouldn't allow you to do um for example
for Yeah. Yeah. It's it's regulation
like the Netherland you have a lot of
talks about nitrogen emission.
>> Yes. Yeah. And so you can't get planning
permission to actually to do anything
because of that. I find it hard. I find
it hard. Yeah. Or you you need or you
need to invest a lot of money on a gas
washer. Um that's money.
>> Yes. Yeah. Energy prices, planning,
permission restrictions, feed stock regulations,
regulations,
labor cost. I mean, it all kind of adds up.
up.
So actually
if if how are we going to compete in
places like Europe or even North America
and places where the price of all of
this stuff in China is just next to
nothing. I mean for wild bird feed for
example we import all of our meal worm
and black solderfly larae cowy worms we
call it from China. um there there is
there is a few niche kind of value added
products from the UK where customers
value a British product um but you know
in this in this country but
generally it's just world bird feed from
China and people generally
I' I'd say don't care so how how can we
compete is it and so perhaps in in my
view it's we the competition comes from
circular economy and it's from waste
processing because you can't you can't
outsource waste process. Well, you can,
but it's expensive to, you know, send a
load of organic stuff to China to to to
sort out and it probably does happen in
certain cases, but um but if you've got
a lump of organic material to to sort
out, then perhaps black solder is the
answer. However, if you are providing a
protein source via insect protein from
as black solder flies, then the cheapest
would probably be from somewhere like
China or East Africa or Southeast Asia.
>> Uh I think it could be Europe actually
because we were talking without
mentioning the fit cost price and China
actually. Okay. The China the Chinese
BSF industry started in you know they
piked this they spiked in 2018 when
there's African spine swine fever
African swine fever. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Um all of a sudden the catering waste
are not allowed to go to the pigs
anymore and the government needs to get
rid of the catering waste and that give
the soil to grow the tree of BSF. That
was it. And you know Chinese people in
their nature they are really competitive
and they want to take resource they want
to occupy the market and today you have
over maybe maybe around 1,000 BSF
companies in China now >> really
>> really
>> yeah yeah
>> and you can see how much competition
there will be nowadays so in the
beginning you know you take a ton of the
catering waste away the government will
compensate you with a little bit money
nowadays you have spending over
sometimes spending over 40 euros to buy
a tongue of Katherine waste. It's ridiculous,
ridiculous,
>> right? Really? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And I believe if EU or UK makes
possible, you know, maybe they're going
to compensate you 80 80 maybe 100 euro
per tone. Just take the garbage help me
with the problem. Yeah.
The price down. I don't see the end of
it. I think it's it's very helpful. Chinese
Chinese
Sorry, you go.
Yeah, please.
>> Well, I mean, yes, because the UK might
say £80 a ton, whatever, black soldier
flies come in and process it, make a
load of money. People see that and then
suddenly we've got a,000 black
soldierfly companies like China, and
then and then those black soldierfly
companies will then be paying the 40 a
ton rather than gaining 80. You know,
it's this it's just market me um
mechanics, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anything any garbage
the moment any garbage become a resource
the price will go up. I I think that's common.
common. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. But at least I think in that sense
we will be able to already establish
certain volume for the market and you
will be able to negotiate better with
the feed feed producers because they say
okay I have so much larvi you're going
to have a like a security of the supply
you know and I think we could do more on
the market side and of course people
west in general they care more about sustainability
sustainability
they in general they don't like to just
buy stuff from all the way shipping from
Asia to here. So I think there's a few
like cultural barrier tariff the the the
best word tariff tariff and uh and um
the local production I I think it's not
going to be so easy for uh the Chinese
to totally replace what is what can be
done in the west but the regulation is
the key
>> in the west. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Because also if China is taking
the catering waste and you couldn't
export it to the UK or the West, could you?
>> Where do you think the
the BSF for the wild bird is coming from?
from?
>> Okay, sorry. For wild bird, you can So
there's no regulations around that,
which is crazy because wild birds are
the ones who spread things like aven
flu. Um but but um but for sorry for for
commercial farming, you wouldn't be able
to use black soldierfly larae from China
if it's been fed on catering waste or
manurs or whatever it might be.
I think we should check uh where are you
going to use it for and my personal
opinion would be focusing on open up the
regulation in EU instead of blocking
China because I think if you open up the
regulation in EU it will be good for the
industry. We will be able to produce
cheaper. We will be able to increase the
volume of production and we will be able
to compete with China. You
you know when you are competing with
someone you can either grow strong
yourself or you can make them shrink and
to make China shrink I I find it hard
because you say I don't want I don't
want your BSF I'm going to put a tariff
on it and they say okay then I don't
want your pork I don't want your beef
I'm going to put tariff on you then it's
not it's not healthy and I think we
should focus on ourself and just grow
stronger ourselves
>> this this is an entirely different
podcast. I think we need to be going on
the rest is politics or something when
we're talking tariffs. But yeah, I I I
agree. Um so so which companies are the
ones to watch in China? Um and yeah,
>> you mean the the good companies in China?
China?
>> Yes, ideally. Yeah.
of course. Wayan Shing and Inspro they
both have a good collaboration with the
local government. Um namely it the okay
willing has a collaboration with the
government. The government say okay this
entire region of the Kon waste will go
to you every day. It's 130 tons per day.
You have to deal with it because if you
don't deal with it it's going to be in
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why they
designed a whole system that is super
sturdy. Um they made the mechanical part
like the movement of the machine as
little as possible and they um tried to
like separate all the machine and the
rowing section as much as possible.
The factory started to work in 2023 October
October
until now they don't have any stop over
eight hours. It's keep on running
>> otherwise government will kill them and
in China it's not going to be a joke.
>> So how how does that work in China?
What's the um how do people get
contracts and or how much money is the
government really putting into this
industry? Let's say the factories that
build they got help from the government
like when you are buying equipment from
the suppliers the government will help
you to push the price down because
they're the government. Uh I know I know
I I I don't care about political
correctness here like China Chinese
government is pushy and uh squeezing the
people like I think we know it and and
they need they need this permit or the
authority from the government to say all
this catering waste go to you not going
to somebody else because I think it's
it's a case for most of the waste
resources because you need people to be
responsible for the waste otherwise
people just dump it in the river is
really bad. Um so they had they got that
help and they got a help with fund raise
from the government because that was the
first one of the first facility they
built that can help the uh helped us to
deal with the catering waste. They built
such a complicated system. Um
complicated here means good. So the
catering waste comes in like I mentioned
earlier they have chopstick chopsticks
and everything they need to sort it out.
They're going to use 80 degree water to
wash it. They reuse this waste water
again and again day after day after day
from that they can extract around 10% of
oil because of it's located in Chandu
like such province they eat very oily cuisine
cuisine
>> and um they still going to sell the
biodiesel the oil they extracted will be
sold as biodeiesel that's the first
that's the first batch of profit they earn
earn
>> okay and then all the way excess waste
water they use to process their feet
will go into a fermentation tank to
produce bio gas and they're going to use
the bio gas for the electricity of the
of the factory and like they have the
whole dried larvi they're going to use
the gas to burn the gas to to dry the
larvi in the end. So basically they
don't need extra energy for the for the
entire plant and actually they need to
burn a lot of gas because the the
location is a little bit close to a
bridge and they don't want an explosion.
Uh so so they really sustainable. Okay.
And then from the 130 tons of waste you
can get 50 tons of um like a slurry for
the larvi and then you grow the lavi and
you get cultured larvi out of it. You
can sell it. That's basically the system
they built.
You know it it take quite some money
back in the days but it worked really
well for now. People are happy with it.
Now they build their second factory
which is a cheaper version. They want to
make it as cheap as possible. I've been
to both factories. I I think they did a
great job there. And Inspro as well,
which is Elvis. Elvis has this good
relationship with the Shinjzhen
government and they built like the crate
system next to uh next to a location
where people just dump their catering
waste as well. So >> okay
>> okay
>> it's different system but similar story
and then unique in China they produce uh
they produce a lot of they produce a lot
of black soldier fly X and they are the
if one of the automation automated
system doesn't have their own X supply
it's very likely this they source their
X BFFX from unique um because uh
stability and homogeneity of their product
product
is definitely interesting they built
quite some uh quite some countries.
>> Sorry, Rulong. On on uh unique if if I
got that right.
>> Do they do they sell their eggs just in
China? Do they?
>> Um for now, yes.
>> Yeah. But I think they they are really
eager to sell to the west
um because you know the price will be
lower and um it will it will make more
sense for them you know and they're also
looking they're actually actually
they're looking for partners to build
their X system all around the world.
They want to have this expension step.
>> Uh so yeah like anyone interested feel
free to talk to them or let me help you
to reach out to them. I'm happy to do so.
so.
>> Yeah, Ruong, if you share your contact
details, um I can put them in the in the
show notes or they can reach out to you
on LinkedIn as well, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Reach out to to me on
LinkedIn is always possible and I can
also give my email later. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> If that's a way to do >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um Okay. Yeah, that's uh
>> And then you were talking about uh is it Shenzhen?
Shenzhen?
>> Shime. Shimeme is
>> Sorry. Yeah, Shima is another company.
They uh they have built facilities for
uh catering waste for distiller grains
and I think they're currently having
project in Nigeria and Mexico and I
think they they're interesting people to
work with too.
>> So so do they they sell their tech they
they've created a production system and
technology and they they've sold it to
Nigeria they sold it to Mexico.
>> Yeah. See it's like a like a builderish
company like provide solutions or
provide training for operation but
they're not running is they not the
owner of the system. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> The other guys are they are the owner of
the systems.
>> Yes. And they produce themselves. Yeah. Okay.
Okay.
>> Yeah. There's this guy called
called
um they are claiming of to process one
ton of waste per day. The investment
capeex is let's say 20,000 pounds
something like that.
>> Is that it?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and they told me
they just sealed a deal in Kazakhstan
100 tone per day. They say they're going
to finish building it by December. I
think in half year we can we can ask
them how how it's been doing and we will
have more data about how good they are.
>> Oh, good. We'll have to get you on the
podcast since in half a year then.
Let's see if I will be able to travel to
there. I also in China uh now that China
is having this crazy relationship with
USA. They don't want to buy soybeans
from the USA anymore.
>> They are they know okay maybe we should
put the catering waste back to the pig
fit and all in a sudden all the Chinese
is just to use the chicken menu to rear insect.
insect.
>> So there's also a company called future
protein who's focusing on using the
chicken menu to grow larvi. you know
this that's different kind of concept
and it's emerging I think in one year or
half a year we will have more
understanding of how it's going to be
actually during the tour I was talking
to the boss of one of the sites we
visited he said yeah this guy he's so
great he just came to me he said just
use my equipment I'm not going to charge
you anything if it works well you can
give me money if it doesn't work well I
will take my equipment away that's what he
he
I was like, "Okay, I didn't know anyone
does business like that, but good for you."
you." >> So,
>> So,
>> so he could have could have taken taken
>> potentially, but uh I I mean it shows
some confidence in processing the
chicken manure from that perspective. I
I wish him a good success.
>> But yes, but then I mean what's the
difference between processing chicken
manure and catering waste? Is there much?
much?
>> It's quite different.
In what way? In what way?
>> Chicken menu is less uh watery starting
from there and the chicken manure
produce much more um you know like they
have uric acid and you're going to
produce much more ammonia. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> And then the larvia will grow much
smaller because because you know it's
not so much good it's not really good
nutrient for that.
>> Mhm. Um and also
um people see differently and I think
it's it's very challenging because for
catering waste um even in terms of
pathogens you know for the catering
waste oil catering waste because of they
were being processed from the garbage to
the slower they went to 80° temperature
then it's kind of like how you like how
you reserve your milk let's say
>> so it's been pasteurized or sterilized
or thing to good point already. Could
you do that with a chicken manure though?
though?
>> No, you wouldn't do anything with
chicken manure because why would you
heat it up? You want to smell good or something?
something?
>> Well, to kill to kill pathogens and things.
things.
>> Uh well, I I don't see people doing that yet.
yet.
>> No. Okay, fine.
>> So, I think I think there will be
challenges on the pathogen also. Also, I
think more more Li will die from the
chicken menu comparing to how much Larry
will die from the catering waste. So,
>> yeah. And also the catering waste will
produce a lot of heat. Chicken manure we
don't know. It's I think some people
know it more than more than I do.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> But I do you see that's more challenging
than what is possible now.
>> Yeah. I mean I guess it's you look at
bio gas or AD and some some AD plants
take catering waste and some AD plants
take manurs whether it's slurry pig
slurry cattle manure or chicken manure.
Um, some take a mix of everything really
and and those guys those guys will know
better than anyone I imagine
>> how to deal with these things and the bacterial differences between all of
bacterial differences between all of those products.
those products. >> I think Lu Jung the professor in
>> I think Lu Jung the professor in agriculture university he knows it
agriculture university he knows it really well because he's involved in
really well because he's involved in like dozens of project related to that.
like dozens of project related to that. >> What's his name? Sorry.
>> What's his name? Sorry. >> Um, actually very similar to mine. You
>> Um, actually very similar to mine. You know, I'm Ray Long. So long and Yu and
know, I'm Ray Long. So long and Yu and the same family name.
the same family name. >> Oh, okay. Okay,
>> Oh, okay. Okay, >> cool.
>> cool. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah, >> good. Well, I'll have to reach out to
>> good. Well, I'll have to reach out to him.
him. >> Um,
>> Um, okay. And so, moving on from China, what
okay. And so, moving on from China, what um what exactly are you doing now? So,
um what exactly are you doing now? So, you've been you've been to China and you
you've been you've been to China and you know those guys really well. How are you
know those guys really well. How are you connecting with the industry now?
connecting with the industry now? So let's start with the biological part.
So let's start with the biological part. Um I you know I had a nice experience
Um I you know I had a nice experience during the project's time and what I can
during the project's time and what I can do for the current industry is I can
do for the current industry is I can help you cut your operational cost. I
help you cut your operational cost. I can help you run your operation
can help you run your operation operations better and I can help you
operations better and I can help you design recipes to cut your cost. I can
design recipes to cut your cost. I can do anal analysis for you to see how to
do anal analysis for you to see how to optimize your production and that's
optimize your production and that's exactly that's actually my financial
exactly that's actually my financial source at this point. Um I am talking
source at this point. Um I am talking with a Chinese and um the Chinese
with a Chinese and um the Chinese they're too much focused on the waste
they're too much focused on the waste management
management you know they either like okay I want to
you know they either like okay I want to get rid of this catering waste I want to
get rid of this catering waste I want to get rid of the chicken menu. Um this
get rid of the chicken menu. Um this year you know China's buying fish meal
year you know China's buying fish meal from Peru, right?
from Peru, right? This year the Peru fish meal production
This year the Peru fish meal production is half of how it used to be. That's why
is half of how it used to be. That's why China find a way to produce more lavi.
China find a way to produce more lavi. We are expecting at least 20 to 25% of
We are expecting at least 20 to 25% of growth in BSF in China the coming year.
growth in BSF in China the coming year. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> How are you going to do that? Then
>> How are you going to do that? Then you're going to use molded corn, potato,
you're going to use molded corn, potato, etc. you're going to make use of
etc. you're going to make use of anything possible to make that happen.
anything possible to make that happen. So I'm talking to some of them they say
So I'm talking to some of them they say I'm happy to help you develop diet and
I'm happy to help you develop diet and of course I'm going to earn some money
of course I'm going to earn some money from there and I think it's important
from there and I think it's important it's like a missing a missing part of
it's like a missing a missing part of the Chinese BSF industry and I hope I
the Chinese BSF industry and I hope I can help them out. Let's start from
can help them out. Let's start from there. And then I was saying like look
there. And then I was saying like look this is situation.
this is situation. Everybody calls you China and they think
Everybody calls you China and they think you're a threat and they don't believe
you're a threat and they don't believe what you
I know I know you develop good systems is it's fascinating. Um but the thing is
is it's fascinating. Um but the thing is in order to convince people, in order to
in order to convince people, in order to really make the industry believe in what
really make the industry believe in what can be reached, we need to do showcase
can be reached, we need to do showcase outside of China.
outside of China. So we want to bring the system that is
So we want to bring the system that is low in production cost, low in
low in production cost, low in operational energy cost, low in labor
operational energy cost, low in labor cost. And I would like to add up how to
cost. And I would like to add up how to do further optimization from like a
do further optimization from like a larvi density uh like optimizing your
larvi density uh like optimizing your nutritional profile from this
nutritional profile from this perspective.
perspective. And we bring this to build a successful
And we bring this to build a successful example outside of China. hopefully a
example outside of China. hopefully a country that is well recognized by the
country that is well recognized by the as the mainstream of the of the media or
as the mainstream of the of the media or the or the west and then people know
the or the west and then people know okay this really works
okay this really works >> and this industry is full of hope it's
>> and this industry is full of hope it's not like everybody is like scamming
not like everybody is like scamming money and scamming the founders uh
money and scamming the founders uh scamming the the the u the investors and
scamming the the the u the investors and then they go bankrupt in a few years I
then they go bankrupt in a few years I think we everybody hear this kind of
think we everybody hear this kind of story nowadays I want people to know
story nowadays I want people to know that this is not this is not a story.
that this is not this is not a story. It's it's totally possible. We can we
It's it's totally possible. We can we can do it and I think that's going to be
can do it and I think that's going to be my major focus in the in the coming year
my major focus in the in the coming year and I hope something happen.
and I hope something happen. >> Yeah. Okay. I mean that's a huge
>> Yeah. Okay. I mean that's a huge opportunity for you, isn't it? Um more
opportunity for you, isn't it? Um more so than just kind of standard consulting
so than just kind of standard consulting of of giving your expertise and time for
of of giving your expertise and time for for cash. Um so per personally for you
for cash. Um so per personally for you that's that could be great. Um what's
that's that could be great. Um what's the Chinese government's perception on
the Chinese government's perception on on that from from your point of view?
on that from from your point of view? Are they are they actively really trying
Are they are they actively really trying to push the export of these industrial
to push the export of these industrial technologies?
technologies? >> I don't think so. I don't think China
>> I don't think so. I don't think China government care about this.
government care about this. So they they they care more for for
So they they they care more for for exporting product rather than as in
exporting product rather than as in consumable products or or even kind of
consumable products or or even kind of equipment that is already made rather
equipment that is already made rather than in collaborating with innovation.
than in collaborating with innovation. >> Not really. I don't think Chinese
>> Not really. I don't think Chinese government has a big play on this.
government has a big play on this. Otherwise I might I might be more
Otherwise I might I might be more careful. I think what's going to be the
careful. I think what's going to be the priority of the Chinese government now
priority of the Chinese government now is how do we secure the protein supply
is how do we secure the protein supply inside China because they need so much
inside China because they need so much protein from outside of China?
protein from outside of China? Let's say if they attack Taiwan now and
Let's say if they attack Taiwan now and everybody's going to do a sanction like
everybody's going to do a sanction like what we did to Russia,
what we did to Russia, who's going to give us the protein?
who's going to give us the protein? >> They got to have a big question mark
>> They got to have a big question mark there. So the Chinese, they just want to
there. So the Chinese, they just want to increase the insect production. They
increase the insect production. They wouldn't care about the rest.
wouldn't care about the rest. Feel free to sell your systems to
Feel free to sell your systems to abroad. The Chinese economy is not doing
abroad. The Chinese economy is not doing that great at this point. If you can
that great at this point. If you can earn some euros, pounds
earn some euros, pounds for the storage of the Chinese
for the storage of the Chinese government, they they're going to be
government, they they're going to be happy about it because they're running
happy about it because they're running out of it. Yeah. So I I think I think we
out of it. Yeah. So I I think I think we are we are fine. I I really think we're
are we are fine. I I really think we're in a in a safe place.
in a in a safe place. >> Well, um Prulong, this is all we've got
>> Well, um Prulong, this is all we've got time for now. Um I my mind is ready to
time for now. Um I my mind is ready to explode. Uh we've we've covered we've
explode. Uh we've we've covered we've covered a lot of ground here and you
covered a lot of ground here and you know we're talking into sort of deep
know we're talking into sort of deep mindsets of Chinese government as well
mindsets of Chinese government as well as technical details of nutrition
as technical details of nutrition engineering um what what's going on in
engineering um what what's going on in the Chinese market. I really liked what
the Chinese market. I really liked what you were talking about with the the tour
you were talking about with the the tour and all of the visits to the different
and all of the visits to the different factories and actually this could be a
factories and actually this could be a blueprint for other countries going to
blueprint for other countries going to um you know I got when I was in East
um you know I got when I was in East Africa and well all over the world but
Africa and well all over the world but East Africa particularly I saw lots of
East Africa particularly I saw lots of different places and learned so much
different places and learned so much from what they're doing and and I think
from what they're doing and and I think I' I'd like to personally um do a bit of
I' I'd like to personally um do a bit of a tour of the UK as well um at some
a tour of the UK as well um at some point um perhaps could open it up for
point um perhaps could open it up for international as well. Um, whoever wants
international as well. Um, whoever wants to come. But I think that could be a
to come. But I think that could be a really really good um platform to work
really really good um platform to work from for the industry in terms of
from for the industry in terms of knowledge sharing and collaboration. Um,
knowledge sharing and collaboration. Um, I I I really enjoyed this conversation
I I I really enjoyed this conversation and um I would just like to before
and um I would just like to before before I say goodbye to you, Ruong, um
before I say goodbye to you, Ruong, um um something about my podcast and say
um something about my podcast and say that you know I'm I'm um learning a lot
that you know I'm I'm um learning a lot about all of the different people and
about all of the different people and and also my style of questioning. So,
and also my style of questioning. So, I'd like to
I'd like to talk to my guests and ask them whether
talk to my guests and ask them whether they would
they would um want to recommend guests or whether
um want to recommend guests or whether they want to put them their own names
they want to put them their own names forward uh in terms of being a guest on
forward uh in terms of being a guest on my podcast. It's an it's an open door
my podcast. It's an it's an open door policy and I would like to learn more
policy and I would like to learn more from more different people. So, if you
from more different people. So, if you are out there and you would like to be
are out there and you would like to be on the podcast or you know someone then
on the podcast or you know someone then please please get in touch. Um but other
please please get in touch. Um but other than that, Ruong, if there's any is
than that, Ruong, if there's any is there anything else that you'd like to
there anything else that you'd like to add um that I've missed for the podcast?
add um that I've missed for the podcast? >> Uh well, first first of all, let's uh
>> Uh well, first first of all, let's uh allow me to show my appreciation for the
allow me to show my appreciation for the podcast and uh and the invite. It's been
podcast and uh and the invite. It's been great. And thanks for offer me offering
great. And thanks for offer me offering me a platform to to show my voices cuz I
me a platform to to show my voices cuz I want people to hear the voices. And um I
want people to hear the voices. And um I think I could definitely recommend some
think I could definitely recommend some people who like if you think the Chinese
people who like if you think the Chinese topic is interesting like for sure I can
topic is interesting like for sure I can find some other English speaking Chinese
find some other English speaking Chinese like for example Lu Jang or people like
like for example Lu Jang or people like that.
that. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. >> Yeah. And I believe in a few months or
>> Yeah. And I believe in a few months or something I can update you with more
something I can update you with more information and I can have more to put
information and I can have more to put on the table to for people to understand
on the table to for people to understand how how everything is. I assume we would
how how everything is. I assume we would have the second episode with me and you
have the second episode with me and you or maybe we can even do a group podcast
or maybe we can even do a group podcast with me and a few other nice gentlemen,
with me and a few other nice gentlemen, ladies, you know. Um I I think I don't
ladies, you know. Um I I think I don't have anything to add to add up to to
have anything to add to add up to to this conversation and I'm looking
this conversation and I'm looking forward to the development of the
forward to the development of the podcast, the development the development
podcast, the development the development of the platform, the development of the
of the platform, the development of the future industry and what's going to be
future industry and what's going to be for all of us. That's it.
for all of us. That's it. >> Brilliant. Well, thank you very much for
>> Brilliant. Well, thank you very much for coming on. Um,
coming on. Um, I'm gonna just I'll I'll delete this
I'm gonna just I'll I'll delete this bit. What I'm saying now, but I'm gonna
bit. What I'm saying now, but I'm gonna add because what I said before was it
add because what I said before was it was good, but it was crap. Um,
was good, but it was crap. Um, and so if you are a
and so if you are a Oh, [ __ ] Hang on. Um,
>> take a breeze. >> Yeah.
Now, if you are a guest [ __ ] sorry, what am I trying to say here? It's late.
what am I trying to say here? It's late. Um,
Um, >> it's Friday. I I mean, I took I took one
>> it's Friday. I I mean, I took I took one hour nap before come come to the
hour nap before come come to the podcast. That's
podcast. That's >> top man. Good stuff. That's what we like
>> top man. Good stuff. That's what we like to hear. Um,
to hear. Um, >> now if you're really enjoying this
>> now if you're really enjoying this podcast, um, and you think that you'll
podcast, um, and you think that you'll be able to tell me something new or tell
be able to tell me something new or tell me something about something innovative
me something about something innovative that you're doing, um, then please reach
that you're doing, um, then please reach out to me. You can find me on LinkedIn,
out to me. You can find me on LinkedIn, David Tavern, or you can email me at
David Tavern, or you can email me at davidflytofeed.com.
davidflytofeed.com. That's fly number twofeed.com.
That's fly number twofeed.com. Um, I'd love to have you on my podcast
Um, I'd love to have you on my podcast or if you know someone who you really
or if you know someone who you really like to recommend on the podcast, then
like to recommend on the podcast, then please, please, please reach out and we
please, please, please reach out and we can get them on because this podcast is
can get them on because this podcast is all about knowledge sharing. It's all
all about knowledge sharing. It's all about shining a light into the industry
about shining a light into the industry as to what's actually happening. So, I
as to what's actually happening. So, I wouldn't be able to do that without all
wouldn't be able to do that without all of my brilliant guests like Rulong here
of my brilliant guests like Rulong here as well. So, um that that would be great
as well. So, um that that would be great if you could reach out. Um but overall,
if you could reach out. Um but overall, hope you are enjoying the podcast so
hope you are enjoying the podcast so far. I am. And if you are, give it a
far. I am. And if you are, give it a like, give it a follow, and give it that
like, give it a follow, and give it that five stars, too. Ruong, thanks very much
five stars, too. Ruong, thanks very much for being on the on the podcast, and
for being on the on the podcast, and I'll uh see you next time.
I'll uh see you next time. >> Thanks, David. See you next time.
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