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How Narcissists Use Psychology to Destroy Lives | Dr. Kerry McAvoy
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they are very predatory in their
perspective of what gains they can get
out of relationships these individuals
who don't have a conscience who is not
empathic who is instrumentalizing what
empathy they have they're mindmapping
other people that means they're
scripting and picking up what it is that
you want because they're all
self-oriented to get what they need
need so Dr krie your work demonstrates
that despite the warning signs of
narcissistic abusers they're extremely
difficult to leave in a relationship
what makes a narcissistic abuser so hard to
to
leave most people don't understand the
degree that the narcissistic individual
creates a compelling story a compelling
version of reality and it's something
that's actually very close to you
they're very good at mimicking your
experiences your your background your
life and you exist in that reality the
reality that they've created it's like a
narrative it's like it's almost like a
like a story align to a movie what you
don't know is that that's actually not
the truth you get glimpses of the truth
but by their betrayal or the the the
abuse or things that happen around it
but they always explain that away as
well they had a bad day or something
went wrong or they they they're you know
they get really discouraged or something
happened at work and so as a result you
buy that as a stat driven excuse State
driven behavior and you miss the fact
that this is actually an ongoing perpetuating
perpetuating
like way of frame of acting frame of
being so you don't realize that what
you're experiencing isn't actually
reality you live in this version that
they've built for you so you exist in
this no man's land of trying to figure
out what's true and it I'll tell you it
is agonizing um not knowing what's real
is so horri horrible and yet what's also
difficult is the outside world often
sees through it better than you do
because they're not inside the bubble
so their their perspective is why don't
you just leave this is why I wouldn't
put up with this but they're not
experiencing all the good things that's
happening inside the relationship
they're not experiencing the the the uh
mixed messages and the mixed reality
that you're experiencing inside that
relationship and you you said State
driven Behavior you take things as
state-driven Behavior so um what would
be an example of that is is that sort of
like a rationalization like oh I was
having a hard day how does that work
yeah State driven to me is different
than trait so state based upon
experiences or feelings or like say that
I'm people say they get angry you know
they get hungry they get angry or that's
a state driven Behavior or maybe that
you didn't get enough sleep so you're
ouchy or irritable um maybe uh something
happening at work and you start to feel
kind of bored or frustrated again that I
would say that's date driven not trait
so a trait to me is something that's
kind of enduring about you it would be
something that's persistent so the trait
driven behavior is what's actually
happening the abuse is going on but it's
presented as state driven Behavior
that's that's roughly how that works and
that's part of this um this false
narrative that you're living under yeah
and it it doesn't help the fact that
they often pick people who tend to
believe in the goodness of other people
who believe that change is possible and
that there are often excuses and reasons
for people to misbehave so they they
lean into your propensity to believe in
that that this is just a momentary
incident not a lifestyle or not a
description of this person yes they they
lean into that so that you think oh you
know I need to give them a break and
everybody has a bad day as a reason for
whatever happened so persons who are
believing in in change and things like
that um how would a narcissist test for
that yeah that's a really good one I
that's hard I'm not quite for sure how
that that personality stands out but
here's what I know so they used to think
this is was the came out of kind of case
studies from the way back in the 194
450s and 60s that the people who got
into abusive relationship were typically
train wrecks that they came from broken
homes they had a history of a lot of a
trauma um that they were just not well
functioning individuals and so they
moved from one disastrous relationship
to the next well Sandra L Brown in 19 or
2014 decided to challenge that she did
this research through Purdue University
of 600 pathological love relationships
and she questioned did you have a
history of a child of so were were did
you have a previous experience of trauma
what she found of those 600 participants
was that 2/3 did not two-thirds were
high functioning individuals who had two
personality traits that were distinctive
compared to the rest of compared to the
the control group and that was they were
highly agreeable or open and the second
was they were highly conscientious
people so if you think about it when
you're looking for a teammate to hire
say a company you want somebody's a good
team member you want somebody's really
good communication who works well
collaboratively it's not competitive not
doesn't undermine other people you want
somebody has a lot of Integrity purchase
their world their work conscientiously
you want somebody with agreeableness and
conscientiousness but those also though
make you highly susceptible she called
them super traits to toxic people
because they see those things as
workable because they're not agreeable
they're antagonistic they're the
opposite under that scale this is the
big five Factor inventory the
personality invent
they're also they often lack conscience
so they're very often conscious or
immoral um lacking Integrity so they
want somebody who's going to play well
follow the rules color within the lines
because that makes you more predictable
but it also makes you they can script
you they can sort of see what your bias
is going to be like how you're going to
more likely react in certain situations
now how do they identify that in an
individual I I'm not for quite for sure
except that they say those of those have
been around them and worked with them
and Sandra actually ran group um she
held groups for psychopaths both women
and men and she asked them can you spot
a victim when you walk into the room and
like oh yeah they like we clack them
yeah and she said it's almost like an
aura you know that that there that that
kind of quality about you shines here's
how I think it happens I do think they
do test you but I also think they notice
how you treat other people are you kind
do you give people benefit of Doubt are you
you
longsuffering um but I think they often
will test a small boundary just a kind
of subtle one and see what you do it's
something innocuous and see if you if
you give in do you let them push them or
not but so I do think something like
that happens early on I also think they
might try to typ cast you have you heard
of that term Gavin debecker uses it in
the gift of fear where they call you out
on something and say you don't want to
be like this and then your natural
instinct is sort of like no I don't it's
sort of like another form of negging in
a way you know like you don't want to be
one of those Independent Women do you
and you're like no I really want a man
to know that he can lead to so then you
you give in so if you give in to that
and you don't resist I think that's
another test I think I think also Women
typ cast men I don't think it's just one
way I think both genders are doing this
we're we're opening up um a lot of
threads now I'm GL I'm glad you
mentioned Sandra Brown I I I keep her
book by my desk yeah yeah I love her
work yeah yeah and you mentioned negging
which is a pickup Artistry term s Sandra
sites Neil Strauss and and the game and
and all of that um so yeah we we've
definitely got this this pickup boundary
testing negging um sort of thing one one
thing that really caught my attention
one time with one of these people that
I'll just share as an example um is uh
he had he had a thing he showed up late
to something and with a woman and I I
said I said why were you late and he in
his brazenness he said oh I made sure to
finish walking my dog at the parking
garage when she showed up that way she
would have to come with me up to my
place first
and then I could get her to come in and
be comfortable coming into my place and
then I came down to meet you and he said
it's just a game thing he just it just
blew it off and that was that was the
beginning of the end that was that was
the alarm um but I mean the the pickup
Artistry tactic mixed with the the lack
of conscience um it it can escalate very
fast yeah you're reminding me of my
story and I never really I mean it was a
moment of disease for me I have actually
debated with myself but I had so I met
my and he by the way was the epitome of
all the most toxic pieces of my life
pushed into one person seriously if he
could have found the most perfect toxic
match he would have been it but uh we
had a great first date very polite uh he
ended it with a kiss on a cheek and you
know it was very you know and the next
day I was going to drop him off at the
airport and went to pick him up at the
hotel waiting in the library he said
come up to my room while I finish
packing and my thought was I don't want
to I don't know you that well and I went
ahead to be polite thinking I'll stay
across the opposite side of the
room well yeah I I regret that decision
yeah yeah but that that's that's how it
works it's it's that it's that subtle
and and it gets it gets past the
boundaries and and you also talked about
personality too in the in the big five
and um I've had Keith Campbell on the
show from the University of Georgia he
does a lot of personality and narcissism
stuff and um one thing that we talked
about is that narcissists tend to be as
you said uh they're low in the agreeable
they're low in the conscientiousness so
they're this this foil to the highly
agreeable this foil to the to the highly
conscientious and it seems um talk to
George Simon too that they these people
have no conscience or diminished
conscience and they're looking for
people who were very high in a
conscience so that they can like you
said you know predict their behavior
it's um it's amazing the the opposite
the yin and yang and how it it seems to
work together it is I think I think
these individuals are born this way you
know there's the big debate is this
nature versus nurture I do think there's
a lot of Personality deficits that
happen in these individuals I mean the
neurology there's an interesting article
in nature where it actually shows the
brain of a narcissist compared to the
brain of a normal person it's a it's a
um I think it's like a functional image
functional magnetic image so you can see
the consumption and activity in the
brain and the parts of the brain that
are overly active in a narcissist is the
place that has to do with excessive
mentation what that means is they're
highly focused on their personal
experience they don't think or see
things from other people's viewpoints
which you already know that that
negatively impacts empathy but
everything is related personally what's
my benefit what do I get out of this how
do I feature into this situation the
other part that's th active um is that
has to do with with empathy and
self-reflection they're not very they're
they're don't have an ability to sort of
look and assess themselves from other
people's perspective but if you think
about the fact if you're born with the
deficit of even um seeing other people's
perspective and that was going to make
you more competitive naturally more
competitive because you're excessively
self-focused and you're very then aware
of whenn loses and if you don't have a
conscience to make you see sort of the
big picture then you don't really care
how it the outcome for anybody else so I
think I was leading up to this whole
point is I think they they're they have
practiced from birth being extremely
aware of whenn lose situations and
because of their sense of innate sense
of unfairness that life is just not
equal then they they are very predatory
in their perspective of what gains they
can get out of
relationships yeah and you mentioned um
years of practice too and then this ties
again to the pickup Artistry of these
guys they talk about getting lots of
reps you know going out and approaching
you know dozens of women in a day that
kind of thing um you've also talked
about Don Hennessy's work um I believe
out of Ireland and how um these these
you know sort of Serial abusers they're
also getting many many rep at
approaching women and things like that
um what's what's the evolution of
practice are there are there some who
get this innately are there some who are
thinking about it you know keeping
spreadsheets what's it like I can only
speculate because we don't actually know
you know I think of for example the FBI
tried to get John sorry tried to get Ted
Bundy to be upfront about his what he
was doing and he wouldn't he was KY
about it so I I think you know this
group does not see honesty as a benefit
and so they rarely disclose what
actually is happening but my observation
experience of them is that some are some
is it's accidental they have just
because of that mindset is almost it's
odd and it's it's exploitive I wouldn't
say it's always necessary predatory ends
up working that way I'm thinking of for
example the communal narcissist who just
wants to have all this admiration and
wants everybody to think well of them
and they're the biggest martyr and the
biggest do gooder for the world I don't
know if they walk out and say I'm going
to hone the skill I want to get ahead I
just think that they're excessively
focused but I do think that the more
those that have higher uh psychopathy
they are more intentional and there is
more practicing that's going on to give
you a perspective the person I was in a
relationship with ke kept cliff notes of
the women he was meeting as well as
observations yeah ta tailored to each
victim yeah exactly how did you find
that uh because I I was very good at
sleuthing so so he started worrying near
the end how Psychopathic I could be and
like well you know I'm easy going in a
lot of areas but you don't want to take
me on in that area because I I am pretty
good with tech so if I want to know the
truth I'm going to pursue it pretty hard
so I did I I got a lot of backups from
him a lot of phone backups now he
promised that I could have full access I
don't think he meant that I could but
and I think I was better at it than he
assumed that I would be so um yeah that
that's that's remarkable though I mean
the the degree um to which this works um
I've had Peter CNO on the show who I
know has been on your show we've talked
about the nature versus nurture argument
and he's also pointed out that um things
like the smear campaign that that will
happen at the end are premeditated often
and that you know from the moment
they're love bombing you they're
actually already starting to smear you
to others so that you're in one down
position yes um and I think I think you
you've talked about this dynamic as well
it's already started the moment you met
them they've already got the narrative
there there's have you heard of the term
mind mapping Dr David snurf he's
deceased now but he put out several
books he's a sexologist psychologist but
he also he was very sophisticated when
it came to the negative aspects of
relationships he would call out sadism
in a normal relationship between a
couple his books are fascinating this
guy I would have loved to met him I
think he would have been a little scary
because he's so accurate and he doesn't
mind saying very provocative statements
the one book that I love of his is
called the passionate marriage it's
about how to have great sex and a and a
relationship but he talked about the
ability to mind map that it developed by
the age of four when you see a an a
preschooler ability to lie and what what
it takes to lie is you have to
anticipate what the parent wants to hear
and tell them that script to hide your
own so that means you're getting into
the mind of the other person having a
sense emotionally what they want as as
well as cognitively and then feeding
that to them so that shows up as early
as 4 so take it back to what I just said
about these individuals who have who
don't have a conscience who's not
empathic who's instrumentalizing what
empathy they have and they' they're
mindmapping other people that means
they're scripting and picking up what it
is that you want because they're all
self-oriented to get what they need
that's their drive to get what they
need so let's make this practical so in
that initial their love bombing you is
the victim but the smearing could be
that they're essentially doing their
best to read the mind of the person
they're smearing as
figure what do that you want to about
you what would they what would they buy
you know if they have a little bit of
Suspicion about the victim with AB or C
give them that feed them that so that by
the time the relationship has come to
its end the seeds are already planted
and growing exactly and and they also
get other people around them to do what
they want yeah because of this ability
to mind
map how does that play out so I just saw
it recently and I was floored when I saw
it so say for example you have an agenda
that you want something to happen
between you and between another with
around a person maybe you don't like
this person and you don't want say
you're in a part of a neighborhood and
you decided that Jane and John you don't
want part of your group but they just
moved into the neighborhood so you'll
start to complain to your neighbors
about the things that you know that
would bug them see that's the Mind
mapping about Jane and John right have
you noticed how they just wait too long
to mow their lawn or doesn't it drive
you nuts when that garbage can is left
out 2 days instead of just taking in the
next morning they start to work on
whatever your key issue is that you
don't like about how the neighborhood
runs and they get stir up conflict with
you around that individual and soon
you're so frustrated because of that
that then you go act out you you do
something around maybe the next back
Backyard Barbecue you don't invite Jane
and John and you deliberately out them
see that's the action that they want but
they can say I didn't they can go to
Jane and John I don't know what happened
I don't know how that I don't know why
they don't like you and yet they were
the one that got the whole thing moving
I call that playing the sides to get the
middle oh that's that's incredible
um devastating too I mean what do you
what do you do with that yeah because
here's Jane and John like I don't know
what I did and and suddenly all this is
working against me and then all the
neighbors who now are against them don't
know that they've been taken for a ride
all of this has been
you see it play out politically all the
time I mean that's what's really
actually happening which is hard to know
what's true or real a lot of the times
because everybody's doing it to
everybody who's good at this so to
understand what's happening when one of
these people is around you if you're
sort of a third party often the advice
is to check in with your gut however it
seems that if you've already been primed
and then you know there's there's the
victim but you think the victim's you
know doing something awful because
you've been primed if you check in with
your gut and that that victim walks in
the room you're already primed your gut
says oh I don't want Jane and John here
yeah is that is that is that how it
works I mean I it does work that way it
seems that you're going to have an an
unconscious aversion as well as a
conscious aversion if you're primed over
time yes and I think where we go wrong
is that we fail to see that the
gossiping itself is the
problem that that if we could have seen
that that's a form of triangulation and
stopped it in the beginning like you
know what I hear you Jane and John may
do that but have you addressed it with
them directly that's if you're the
outside party being manipulated for you
to take spot the effort to be
manipulative and I think the other thing
that we go wrong is we don't recognize
charm and Charisma is also forms of
manipulation what did you say recognize
the gossip as a form of triangulation
yes that's a very powerful statement I
don't think I've heard that before um Dr
George Simon and I have talked a little
bit about these sort of things um but
and and how the you know the failure to
recognize the aggression and the tactics
of others um is how you get manipulated
but something as basic as just being um
receiving gossip when when parties
haven't directly work something out um
it already sets you up it does because
then you end up feeling because think of
this this is what something I just saw
recently too that when somebody's
gossiping about another person saying
they're talking about a conflict that's
really driving them nuts so say person a
has an issue with person C and they're
very upset about it but they go to
person B to complain and and rile them
all up and talk about what person C is
doing person B may feel like person C
and A have pulled them in MH but person
C has had nothing to do with it at all
so that's another way that you can
imagine conflict with an outsider who's
actually had nothing to do with it but
because of the way a has positioned it
you get pulled in and think that you're
in something that actually doesn't
exists it's the sole creation of person
a wow but we often don't slow down and
to consider that you know to really
dissect those
Dynamics no and and and then you get you
get repulsed by the drama say I don't
want to be in this anymore but you but
you've been influenced by one side and
and meanwhile these parties aren't
working out in their own yes and because
person a can find it in you you feel
trust and special so you're going to be
repulsed by person c not person
a that's devastating um but you see it
play over all over and over you know yes
so if you're in that situation now
you're being played your gut is primed I
mean you you've had so much priming that
now even your gut instinct is off you
received the gossip and now you're
you're saying no I don't want to be in
the drama but you've already made a
decision you stopped inviting Jane and
John to your barbecue or whatever you
know that now that that party that
victim party is actually on the outside
being punished um what what can you do
to get through um all these layers now I
mean can can the outside party um check
in with a reality test with another
person or how does that work it usually
doesn't work because usually by then RDC
has been scapegoated Jane and John now
are Outsiders and it's once you've been
disempowered it's extremely hard to get
any power back it almost takes another
powerful party to help remedy the
situation I think it really comes up
with the person who's been put in the
middle party B I think them recognizing
you know what I don't have I should have
a no policy or no gossip policy and the
fact that someone's willing to do this
to me I should see this as an
instigation of trouble that this is a
divis of maneuver but instead of a it's
not a compliment it feels like a
compliment but it really is not a
compliment so it takes a lot of sort of
self-analysis to recognize this but it
once this is emotion this is extremely
hard I usually Hardy see I usually this
is the bad advice I I mean bad in a
sense I hate giving it I usually say I
would recommend you just stop trying and
then find a new group of people to
participate in or new
community wow well that's tough um and
then so the but the no gossip policy is
is the best protection against this and
recognizing the aggression in the gossip
right away rather than feeling special
feeling trusted oh they came to me
because they know I could do something
right if we learn to see that kind of
there's one thing I I do think it's okay
for us to find a totally outside person
who has no connection or allegiance to
anyone being involved we need safe
places to vent obviously we do so
finding somebody who's unrel outside the
circle is I think it's totally
permissible but when you have somebody
who's inside the circle who's directly
being impacted by these relationships I
think that kind of talk is always
destructive it's rarely it's very rarely
helpful yeah and this this is all we've
been talking from the beginning about
facades and and creating this deception
um the salesman ship the of the
narcissist um what what makes it so good
I've heard you talk a little bit about
mirror is a skill um what but they seem
to be uncanny yeah they do I think
George Simon talks about it the best
when he he identified their strong
propensity for image management it's
really part of the the way in which they
feed their ego and and feel like they're
they've they're something is just how
they present the the way in which they
present to the world so what that does
though it gives them an extraordinary
amount of confidence it it makes them
literally I don't even want to say inch
deep they're like only be 2 millimeters
deep but but our initial experience of
them is this bold confidence outspoken
person and unfortunately research shows
that we like that that we find that a
highly um a positive trait we we put a
lot of confidence in that unfortunately
if you go very far with them you find
there's no commitment there's no loyalty
and there's and it's definitely they're
they're not going to be safe they're not
there's no safety in that kind of
individual but because of the charm
because of the the the con the
confidence we're very very attracted to
this individual and we we assume things
about them that we shouldn't have
assumed and I've heard you also speak
about a false closeness so on top of the
charm on top of the Charisma on top of
the whole Wizard of Oz thing then
there's also a sense that you're close
that there's something intimate um how
is that how is that manufactured yeah
they're actually using cult leader
tactics when they meet you and so it's
similar to uh I hate to say this group
psychologists and social workers when
they first meet you and they're make and
they're helping you become feel
comfortable as a patient salesmen use it
so in other words what what I love is my
point is and I've heard other someone
else say this they're not special there
are other groups of people who do this
uh I think politicians do it salesmen do
it obviously narcissist and cluster B
people do it but what it is is they're
using a set of tactics that cause rapid
Rapport and uh too rapid of Detro of too
rapidly um developed trust so they're
building this really this experience
that you are know each other that you're
similar to each other and they're
getting you to drop your guard so how do
they do that they do it by first of all
as if you're speaking of mimic Maring
and paring now mimicking is when they
actually imitate what you're doing dress
alike mimic you parenting is speaking
back the things that you say so the
things that you've shared they'll then
share similar things there's this like
almost like um like a parrot would do
this mimicry mimicry that's happening
and mirroring is when they they adopt
your life your way of being even the
posture you're having they'll mirror
your emotions so that you feel the
Symmetry with them which really helps
you to feel very trusted they've looked
at this in in the clinical setting this
is a very fast way to help patients feel
a report and trust with the doctors
think about it if you come into my
office I want you to let your guard down
so that you want to share really hard
things with me things that maybe you
don't talk about with anybody so I'm
trying to help you to know that I'm
super safe so I'm doing it in the
benefit that's the intent
the benefit of the treatment a benefit
of you but these individuals are
instrumentalizing it and doing it for
the benefit of themselves so they're
doing this as a really rapid way to
build report one of the things that um I
got to interview Dr Kristen milsted she
wrote the book why can't I just leave
fascina fantastic book I can't say
enough positive things about it but what
she shared and I thought this was
powerful in the interview is that they
create a sense that you've always known
them and this is how they do that they
they when you say oh I used to go to
University of Chicago they may have only
ever been in Chicago but they'll act
like they've been there and they may
talk about walking across the green and
in your mind you picture them there when
you were there even though they were
never there so they created this sense
of this similar past so that you're
they're in your past even though they
never actually were then they create
this perfect sense of moment with you in
the present by saying I've never met
anybody like you I've never felt like
this before with anybody and so now you
feel like you've created this special
world that just the two of you are
inhabiting so they inhabit your present
and then they future fake and talk about
the things you're going to do in do
together like you know let's go to that
that re that Campground where we can
watch the stars at night where there's
no white uh pollution so that we can
really watch the falling stars so now
you've got this past that you've never
really actually shared but it feels like
you have you they're in the special
bubble of this moment with you in the
present and they've also started
creating the imaginary future that
actually will never exist so it feels
like you've always known them that
they've always been in your life Dr
Carrie I I've heard people talk about
the oceanic feeling and I know what it
is but I've never heard anyone explain
this Perpetual timeline this continuity
um like that before it's um it's so eye
openening thank you so much you're
welcome but it's so in intoxicating yes
Oceanic it's overwhelming oh I I
actually met um I met somebody who was
trained in in the art of the game mhm it
did not go well for me MH thank God it
was only one experience I would not want
that person in my life but he did that
and I have to tell you so in a matter of
hours it was a powerful experience yeah
but it was completely fake you know yeah
yeah and highly toxic just a a way off
topic here but have you ever seen the
horror movie the thing yeah so I read a
book about narcissism and grandiosity
that references the thing it's by Robert
Moore it's called facing the dragon and
um I don't know if you are you familiar
no okay Robert Moore is a psychologist
Yan sort of gu University of Chicago um
call back there and uh he he talks about
how the thing it shows up in the form of
this dog you know it comes in as like a
best friend and yet there's something
about the evil in it that it's like it's
always been there it's like it's older
than time itself and it just that image
resonated so much with me and
understanding this this overwhelming
narciss istic seduction um and and how
it it works it's it's never left me yeah
it is really really powerful as I I
recently got to meet Dr Romany in person
and she just just a teeny bit of my
story and I always call my ex a
narcissistic sociopath and she like
Carrie why are you saying he's a
sociopath he's a psychopath and and it
it was there was a what was I found so
disarming and the part that I think
people don't back to that confusion is
where you started today people don't
understand about the intense confusion
is that when it was good it was profoundly
profoundly
good and and you feel like you've never
met somebody who gets you like that
before or ever will get you again but
then there's this other aspect of them
that is so alien and foreign that at
times I felt nauseous I was sickened
around them because of the the just the
evilness the darkness I once asked him I
said I because you never could ask
anything directly often you couldn't so
I usually was sort of around hit the
angles with him but I and I was always a
psychologist in a sense of like trying
to figure this guy out but I once asked
him I said this is what I think our
day-to-day life looked like and I kind
of listed the activities I said how
close to that to the truth is it he said
all and and you're making this
distinction you had with Dr Romany
between a psychopath and a sociopath
what what is that
distinction well I I'm kind of using do
Dr hair's delineation and I think Dr
Romany is too and that he differentiates
them as a psychopath is generally born
and they tend to be more um
effectively blank or flat they feel
robotic when you're around them they
almost feel a little creepy and strange
because something's inherently different
about them I think they're they're more
cold and calculating and I would also
think they feel other they don't feel
like part of humanity there's an
otherness to them
and um they're they're just able to
break the the rules because there is no
conscience and they just and they're
novelty seek seeking yeah so there's
just this kind of cold calculated to
them what differs from them from the
psychopath by the way the psychopath is
more dangerous actually we often think
the psychopath is the most dangerous
that person is often not always the most
dangerous the sociopath is volatile they
tend to be made they T tend to come out
an extremely chaotic abusive home
and they have decided that power is the
way to be powerful to have power they
manipulate power for that so they they
tend to take offense rapidly and
respond with volatility so it may be
something you think is a no big deal
maybe you you looked away when this
person wasn't done speaking I mean it
could be like super almost like a
nothing but they will see that
potentially as a sign of disrespect or a
betrayal or outrage and then kill you
for it you know just blow up so I tend
to think for example um people who are
really dangerous and very um material in
their moods and and you never can
predict what they're going to do next
that to me is a sociopath okay and and
we're saying the sociopath is the most
dangerous okay because of the volatility
okay the the the the possibility that
they could just go to to extremes that
are just expect that makes sense U we've
been talking a lot about the sort of the
exploitation um that comes in
relationships with these people um how
how does the confusion make you more
exploitation if you want to control
somebody the best way to control them is
to manage their feelings their emotions
uh the reality and their perceptions and
they do this through gaslighting so
whenever you bring up an issue they'll
say I didn't say that or you're making a
big deal out of nothing or it really
wasn't that bad you know you start to
get all this pressure which is ask
asking you to modify one of those areas
which starts to make you feel like well
maybe you did get it wrong because again
think about the person who's highly
amenable who wants relationships to work
they believe in the good of others
they're very collaborative and and um
just Pro PR making this they have been
they're invested in this well because
they're being this is all being
questioned then they're going to
question themselves maybe did I phrase
it wrong or maybe I didn't didn't
remember it correctly but over time this
starts to then change how you see things
and gets you to question yourself now
you're no longer as confident of your
reality as you once were and that makes
you very open to them then kind of re
changing the narrative and making it
different just controlling what's
happening between the two of you because
here's one of the things that Dr Stern
said to me and I thought was super
powerful she wrote the book gaslighting
effect she said the only reason
gaslighting works is because the person
who being gaslighted is more invested in
the relationship than they are invested
in their version of
reality now she didn't quite phrase it
that way that's my paraphrase but I
realize that that they take what these
individuals you feel that you feel that
the there's the relationships in
Jeopardy if you don't comply you don't
want to lose the relationship so you end
up doing things that compromise you or
betray you in in uh in protection of the
relationship thinking that there is
equally invested in it as you are
although you actually know that they're
not so all of that just sort of creates
this intense
confusion of motives of of Direction it
it you end up then be and they're also
feeding you different kind of um
information to make you mislead you for
example mine and my toxic relationship
was in therapy the entire time and he
was reading self-help books on the topic
and highlighting them and discussing
them with me I'd wake up in the morning
and find him in a chair like oh you
would not believe this thing really hit
me and they would read the highlighted
passage and then talk about it that
sounds like Pro change Behavior this is
a person who's really like working hard
and yet when I got out and was able to
really reflect back thanks to all my
sleuthing there was nothing that was
different yeah I mean he was you know
soliciting people um see texting people
meeting up with people I mean it was
active Behavior to suggest that that was
all just the front of thead but if I'm
in that in the midst of that and all of
this gaslighting is happening and all of
this pro-change behavior that I think is
really real is happening I'm going to
think this person's actually working on
it of course so then it leaves you like
what's real what's real I don't know
what's real and then that makes you so
much more vulnerable to the exploitation
that's going on and you don't if you
don't know you can't be sure how can you
really resist what you don't even know
exactly because somebody just wrote me
today and asked me this question and
this is a question I had as well in the
midst of that they said they say they're
trying to be better they say that
they're changing it's not better it's
not getting better but what if I leave
and then then it gets better and I miss the
the
change I can't tell you how often I
thought exactly that same thought yeah yeah
yeah
absolutely and and the narcissist is is
Sam back on the show he said the
narcissist is the consumate actor you
know the the the impression the ways
that they can make you feel things and
believe things it's it's um it's
incredible it is it is they they are
they are the actor on the stage and we
we are all just sort of puppets with
them they I don't think we realize that
we're not really actually other people
on the stage we're just we're just
objects that they're utilizing on that stage
stage
unfortunately right another thing that
you you mentioned that Sam and I talked
about is is that people who really go
deep with the narcissists often um he he
put it in in a way that your your
phrasing is different and I I appreciate
the the Nuance he said something like
these people have already given up on
reality I think what you said was that
the the reality is less valuable to them
than the relationship so it seems the
ideal Target the ideal victim is someone
who could come to Value their
relationships so much that they would
disregard their realities is that kind
of the the take that you have on it I do
in fact his favorite thing when I asked
him what did you love about me he said
now he was English is the second
language so he's using a word that's not
we would not readily use in English it's
not over he'd say you're without
malice yeah
I think translate you're naive and
gullible Carrie I think that's really
what he was saying to me but yeah
exactly that I didn't here's what I
discovered when I got out of that
relationship that I think has profoundly
changed me and I think too many women
are socialized this way unfortunately
that we prioritize the we over the me
and we think the me is safe as long as
we're doing
well I don't think men are socialized
that way I raised three boys they're all
men today and I don't see them
prioritizing their life never seen them
prioritize their life like that ever not
ever but I had to learn when I got out
of the relationship that the me needs to
be priority over the we and that we will
do well if I'm doing
well right but that's a radically
different perspective so if a toxic
individual meets somebody who's
prioritizing we how well are we doing
are we okay then they found the perfect
Victim Because that individual is going
to be longsuffering and it's going to be
easy to
confuse this phrase longsuffering is new
to me I I think I get it but um could
could you put words to it I mean that
they're going to put up with a whole lot
of abuse because they keep thinking this
person's changing and they're really is
not a lot of changing you know they're
going to like well they didn't mean it
or they're trying I mean that's all the
excuses I gave yeah yeah putting up with
things seems to be very attractive my my
guy with the dog um he he said something
along those lines about um a woman who
there had been in Conflict at a social
environment that were were in and she
was immediately ready to come right back
in uh no qualms keep working on things
and uh he he said that that was a real
sign that she was somebody who wanted to
be around and um and I remember thinking
like well wouldn't she want to have some
some say in how things are and make sure
that there's sort of amending before
that comes back but that that long
suffering um it seems to make a great
victim and then um you know to Target
somebody who's really going to Value
their relationships this woman um was
orphaned raised in foster care all she
wants is to be married um just a just a
perfect Target unfortunately I can tell
you what the woman's thinking in that
perspective because I thought the same
thing that is oh they really love me
they're going to try harder they've
realized my value now that's totally the
opposite of what's being considered or
believed about you but that's what you
believe when you do that we don't those
of us with that mindset don't know no
you just established to this individual
how low the bar can be set and they're
going to even give you worse
now yeah that that lowering of the bar
there's a there's a phrase that I hear
um breadcrumbing devaluation um how does that
that
work yeah so it's just have you ever
seen there's a there's a group of I
think it's men more than women who do
this because that's this only persons
people I've heard talk about it is men
it's bad part of this dating is that
when you first meet somebody you give
them 100% and then over time you give
them 95% and then you just keep lowering
it till eventually they're down to like
5% or 10% and then when they complain
you give them 5% more than you did
before but you never go back to 100% but
because the 5% change is better they're
grateful is see how that works and so I
think it's something similar to that
it's it's that
we that they can you say the question
again because I lost track of the
question it's it's what is what is this
breadcrumbing this devaluation you know
because we we talk about the narcissist
has having this huge upswing right they
meet you they overwhelm you they love
bomb you and then there's a come down
yeah exactly it's that same principle of
the reduction of benefits or the
reduction of it paying attention to
somebody it's the same thing so you get
you get acclimated over time to less and
less and then when you start to pull
away and get ready to leave these
individuals again because their their
mindset is very me oriented danger
oriented they pick up the cues from you
that you're about ready to be done and
at that point then they give you the
things that you've been requesting
unfortunately the person who receives it
thinks oh they're trying they care they
hear me it matters just like we were
talking about that woman with the
lowering bar that we experience it is is
a resurge of effort and then we don't
realize that this was actually just to
maintain the
relationship one of the because what
I've realized that these individuals
have massive personality deficits and
they don't have stable lives so that
means they're having problems setting
goals they're not connect they don't
have real intimacy with anybody they
often if you look at their relationships
they have a there's a dir there's
literally not many their relationships
are so transactional that it's just
either very shallow or they're chunning
through people really rapidly so they're
they're not they're not embedded in a
society they don't really have support
um it's all about image management which
means there's no honesty so they're not
getting any safe place to process their
emotions they're not self-reflective
which means they don't learn from past
mistakes and they can't predict future
errors it's another key piece by the way
is that they tend to get in trouble over
and over because they don't learn from
their past so they can't predict future
problems so you have this person who is
mass and so that means they're in lots
of drama there's lots of Chaos in their
life lots of instability relationships
Shore them up it's it's the way in which
they it's like literally the scaffolding
that keeps this ego from crumbling
because the outside person provides
structure they maybe even do some future
planning maybe they they help them
anticipate where risk possibly are they
they briefly before they start to get
tore apart make this person a little bit
better so when they start to sense
they're losing that individual they they
may be they they're not invested to the
individual I don't care that so and so
is isn't in my life I don't love them
they not in the real sense of love but
they don't want to lose the assets and
the stability this person brings and
they also don't want to lose power and
control they don't get to say when they
leave I get to say when they leave so at
that moment they pull in whatever it is
that they know about you again because
we talked about mind mapping they're
very good at knowing what your basic
needs are and they give you those things
that you want which fool you into
thinking this person's invested when it
actually is
not so if they if they go through that
and then doesn't work and the victim
does get away um things that I hear in
the pop psychology terms isolation
withholding smear campaign um does that
hold true in your experience and what
what does that look like what drives for
the narcissist yeah so usually if first
of all this is the most time dangerous
time in a relationship when is when the
victim is breaking free because that is
experienced as a narcissistic wound to
the toxic individual it's a a massive
blow to their ego and so they're going
to be enraged at some level even if they
never show it they're enraged well they
critical that person plans well but the
way that they then work this against you
is then they start to rewrite the
narrative and make like we said they
figured out your Source spots way back
in the early part she's a little
sensitive or you know how you know how
controlling he gets or he just has
everything just his way well they have
spun up some story about you that
convinces the world that you were
difficult or you're the problem um and
then they start to use that against you
here's another thing that they also do
that's highly toxic and why
why there's such thing as illegal abuse
is because they're also the one who's
been created The Narrative they're the
one who's been instrumental in the abuse
they're not the one being abused they're
abusing so they're in the the seat of
power they're basically driving this
vehicle this perspective down the road
the victim on the other hand is one
being affected by them they're they're
feeling disregulated they their their
life has been blown apart they feel
shattered so they look like a mess
they're distraught so when when you go
into court you have this calm Collective
person with a perfect version their
version not the true version but it
sounds they've got to practice a lot
they've been telling a lot of people it
so they've been running it many times so
they got the script down really well and
they sound collected together sounds it
has Integrity it sounds it sounds like
it has Integrity to it you want to
believe it and then you have this
distraught person who is rambly you know
not coherent and and struggling to make
things make sense and they look like a
mess and you think well who's the
problem here it's really clear that
distu person probably is the problem
you're you imagine they've always been
like this and that that's why the other
person's done had it with them so it
just is really this very it's this very
nasty thing that
happens yeah so it so they all of that
then just makes the victim feel worse
and it it and then it creates more abuse
the community starts to be abusive or
the legal system starts to be abusive
because of the The Narrative that's
being perpetuated
yeah when when the smearing starts and
we we know that it starts right at the
beginning with the love bombing phase um
but when it when it seems to kick off in
a way that the victim is aware of um
have you seen anything that's effective
what what can a victim do when when that
happens I don't know if there again
that's because you've been disempowered
so whatever you're coming from a
standpoint of is punching up is really
hard yeah it's hard to get anybody to
believe you or to give you any power
when you're punching up I I find that
the best thing for you is hold on to
your own integrity
you know be yourself do what you've
always done um don't don't change don't
try to defend don't justify don't attack
don't do all the things that you're
wanting to do that are defensive because
that's going to make it look true and
worse and I usually tell people that
people who really know you who know the
truth and if they don't and they believe
it then you know more about them see
that as an indicator that you don't need
that individual in your life but I know
that there are people who have to leave
to community because when it's all said
and done everything's been d
even their social support system mhm
yeah and you mentioned you know taking
action it it makes you look bad and and
the elements that you mentioned in the
sort of courtroom scenario too if this
person is also under tremendous stress
um the the physical response the
psychological response to the narcisstic
abuse um just the lack of sleep um you
know the confusion especially you know
let's say you don't know that you're
dealing with a narcissist you just know
that this person's been tough on you so
you don't see the patterns and stuff um
and have sort of a scaffolding to
hanging on it just it sounds um it
sounds extreme difficult to manage yeah
it is and that why that's why it's so
difficult to leave it takes up an
average of seven times to try to leave
because you're battling yourself I even
say to people don't see that as failure
see that as practice you're exercising a
new muscle every time that you leave
you've learned some things that were
difficult about it now you know what to
do and anticipate the next time just
view it as you like practicing a new
muscle you go out and you try to do some
to new type of thing in the gym you're
not good at it at the beginning but you
go back and you do it again you do it
again and eventually you get very
proficient at it so I think if we can
sort of be very supportive and and kind
to ourselves it really helps a lot
sounds a bit like quitting smoking yeah
I think yeah exactly exactly yeah uh Dr
K you had talked about how the
narcissist um maybe doesn't learn from
things um and they have trouble sort of
recognizing their own mistakes and stuff
I think we're getting at is
compartmentalization I've heard you talk
about compartmentalization so in general
um what is the role of
compartmentalization in the Nar
inability to have a productive
disagreement okay so we all have
defensive structures in ways in which
our mind protects us from stress and
distress and they show up the minute
we're born we have these these defense
mechanism one of the early ones is
called compartmentalization and that's
when you literally anything that you're
uncomfortable with or you don't like
about yourself or like about life you
put in a box and you put it away almost
like you shove it in the back of your
mental closet but when you do that and
when you're a narcissist you do it a lot
with a lot of things because you're
you're keeping your lives separate like
what you do with this person you keep
separate from this person or what you do
at the work you keep separate from home
they're literally like keeping all these
things that are dis just uncomfortable
or dislikable or are not approved
they're keeping in separate boxes but
when you do that you've then stopped
your ability to learn from those things
because they've been isolated and
relegated to the back of your mind like
literally it just disappears as if it
didn't exist you've and it's not
unconscious process this is a this is an
effort to literally I'm like shut the
door it's like whenever you had that
difficult conversation you're like you
know what I just we got to agree to stop
disagree and then you act like you never
had the conversation well in that moment
you it did a form of
compartmentalization it's still there it
happened it did change things but
because you've set it stops now it has
no ability to impact or improve their
relationship so that's what they're
doing they're literally putting these
things into boxes in a way well what
happens then is then they don't have
access to it because it's uncomfortable
which me means they can't then learn
from their past experience it's as if it
didn't happen and because they can't
learn from their past experience their
best way to know what going to happen in
the future is by the past we we our mind
makes connections to this moment and
similarities just other moments that
happened before if we don't have those
other moments that happened before we
can't do the comparison so how many
times have we've been in a relationship
where they throw out a really a weird
idea and you're like that's not going to
work because you know because you've
tried similar things things why it won't
work and they don't they seem clueless
like no you're just you just like to
Rain on My Parade you're just a naysayer
you just never trust me and yet you know
this isn't going to work because you've
done it and it hasn't worked or you've
seen other people do it it hasn't worked
but because of the compartmentalization
that's why they're not making those
connections time to time to them does
not run continuously it is not it is
it's not um it's dis it's discreet it's
broken into sections so they it's still
for example mine was a Serial cheater
when he left whatever whoever he left
with and came home it's as if that ever
happened so he he literally stepped into
another room with me and became in that
moment and that previous moment ceased
anymore what what does that do to a
person's psyche if if you're it must
seem because you know our our sense of
identity is tied to our memory and if
our me if we're if we're shaking up our
own memory like this what does that do
to to our sense of who we really are
well I don't think you could have a good
sense of who you are then so the
narcissist I mean to be self-aware and
to be things like this is is is
incompatible right there's speculations
about how what's their core self like is
there a core self and some people say no
there isn't a core self it's shifting
constantly that's why they're restless
and Novelty seeking that's why they're
thrill seeking is because they're trying
to or that's why they're shift shifting
personas so fast is because they're
taking on adopting these new selves but
it's not really a self it's a pseudo
self I don't know if they know who they
are I mean I I sit with this person and
I knew him for three years and I can
tell you some core things about him like
what kind of music he generally liked or
what he liked to watch but and I can
tell based on his behavior what his that
his he was he was heathenistic you know
what I'm saying it was always for the
moment very pleasure oriented um very
extremely selfish but I can't tell you
what gave him Joy I can't tell you what
was his end goal for Life there there
wasn't a bigger kind of controlling
theme to him it was more what can I get
out of this from moment to moment to
moment that's how so imagine living with
that I know for me if I was to live like
that I would feel lost I find those
experiences really grounding you know to
to have a big purpose to my life but I
don't I don't think they I think they're
very miserable people honestly
mhm yeah this compartmentalization thing
is I'm realizing the ramifications of it
and it's it's um it's disturbing about
what it what it could really say about
what a person is and I think I think we
talked earlier maybe said something like
they're kind of alien um that there
there is really something there with
with the guy who I mentioned with the
dog I I remember I confronted him and he
said it was very strange it was like he
sort of contorted and he and he all in
one word he said feed back taken water
under the bridge as as though he had
just he had just like taken it and he
was putting it down and the compartment
was down here now and the discussion was
over and and that was a that was just
such a strange Behavior I talked to a
friend after who was a doctor I was like
I think something's really gone here um
but it it it seems this
compartmentalization just you can't
integrate if you're working like this
yeah it's it's considered one of the
more primitive defense mechanisms here's
another one you're seeing a lot of and
you don't know that you're seeing it but
you're experiencing it splitting do you
know much about splitting I I've heard
about with borderlines I don't know so
much about with narcissists yeah so it
with borderlines they split and act out
with narcissists they split around how
they experience you so let me go back to
Melanie Klein's work is where she sort
of first identified this with the good
breast and bad breast which I know it's
like well that's really really crazy
stuff but anyway it's fascinating when
you think about it an infant state is
sensory driven so when they're warm- fed
and things feel wonderful then the
world's good mom is good others are good
they're good and that's the perfect
State the idealized state when they're
cold hungry and not they're not needs
are not being met they're not being held
then in that moment they're in a bad
State the world's bad mom is bad life's
bad they're bad so literally they live
in these jux positions of good or bad
based on the state of they're in at that
moment so if you take it Forward into
what happens with adults what a
narcissist does whereas a borderline
does with it is that if they're
distressed and things go bad life is bad
they act out they're enraged they either
do destruction towards other or towards
themselves and then when it's good and
you you meet their needs in a great way
you're perfect life is perfect
everything's perfect and then you feel
this like this Soul kind of kmic moment
with them so you really experience this
back and forth it's black and white with
them but how experienced with a
narcissist is is how they experience you
so you you in the beginning when they
meet you they have this idelic idealized
image of you that you're going to make
life perfect because you're the perfect
person they've been looking for and
you're going to fix everything that's
wrong and solve all the issues Within in
their life then that moment you're good
you you you're this perfect state but
it's not based on reality and it doesn't
acknowledge you as a human being and
then they acknowledge your your flaws as
a human being but the minute you do
something that slight and I heard Dr I'm
sorry I heard Lee hammock say it could
just be that you said something one time
too many I mean it could be like a
nothing thing suddenly you fell from
grace and in that moment and you can
feel it with a narcissist that switch
people talk about the moment of the
switch where suddenly you know that
you've become terrible you're a piece of
crap and you're now bad you can't do
anything right and from that on you're
kind of doomed it's all that leads to
the devaluation that then leads to
perpet the the final piece of the
discard so it's more of how they
experience you you're all good or you're
all bad I had a colleague years ago when
I first was training as an intern as a
psychologist at the psychiatric facility
said watch out for the clients who treat
you like a a nugget of gold because next
you're going be treated as a piece of
yeah so if you're putting you on a
pedestal they're going to it's it's what
we're describing with the the
idealization and devaluation is the
split all good to all bad so the split
is happening you're going from all good
to all bad and yet it seems there's
there's also the the there's sort of a
you were inferior now you're somebody to
be jealous of thing that's happening as
well it seems there's an arc where
things that they used to like about you
and kind of want to keep you around for
now they seem threatened by um how does
the jealousy work
well so you become all bad but you're
still a source of competition it doesn't
mean they do both they're doing both at
the same time so they don't like you
respect you they see you with contempt
you experience that contempt it's being
showing up everywhere but it doesn't but
they need to also at the same time make
sure you're beneath them that's sort of
more of their kind of hierarchial view
of the world you can't be better they
have to degrade you or malign you or
insult you or criticize you in every any
possible way to keep you beneath and
under them so it's it's not really like
a jealous like you are something special
that I want it's more of jealous like
want could you could you say a little
more about that I thought of an example
so when the shift happened for me I
think the shift happened sh slightly
before we got married so already I was
in the contemptuous Realm by the time
we're married that the the that had
started I didn't realize that but it had
started but near Midway through when I
realized how badly things were going and
it where we hit for our first split he
said to me this is when I you know he
played his cards and he said life
because I ended up with a life insurance
policy because of my my husband passed
away my first husband passed away due to
cancer and he was aware of it and we
were using the capital to invest in our
company and he was then saying he wanted
half of the company half of the
investment even though it was all my
investment and he looked at me and he
said life's never been fair to me why
should it be fair to
you so he didn't see me with any I was
not being idealized he just saw that I
had more cards in my stack than he did
and that was unfair yeah this is this is
so so childlike the the the the rational
processes of an adult are not in play no
no because if you take all that apart I
mean imagine what's just being said to
me that me coming into a life insurance
because of a 32-year marriage ended
prematurely and we happen to be wise
enough to get a life insurance policy
that that's life being unfairly kind to
me I mean it doesn't even you can't even
make that it doesn't it's not logical
that's not a logical statement but
that's the way they see the world they
don't see it logically they just sort of
see it from their advantage
yeah um to to go back to that phase of
your life too I think I've heard you
talk about um a friend who was highly
narcissistic and um they were getting
attention around sort of um you know
being helpful to you um what what does
it look like um we talk a lot about this in in you know romantic relationships
in in you know romantic relationships what does it look like between friends I
what does it look like between friends I mean friends already have these sort of
mean friends already have these sort of dynamics of um you know there can be
dynamics of um you know there can be jealousy between friends and things so
jealousy between friends and things so what are the nuances um on these
what are the nuances um on these friendships with narcissists it's
friendships with narcissists it's interesting because I just had a podcast
interesting because I just had a podcast interview this morning on female
interview this morning on female friendship narcissist so you know how
friendship narcissist so you know how that shows up in relationships and it's
that shows up in relationships and it's the same thing it you just translate it
the same thing it you just translate it into a friendship versus a romance but
into a friendship versus a romance but it's the same process there's often love
it's the same process there's often love bombing this incredible connection that
bombing this incredible connection that you have this trust and then slowly the
you have this trust and then slowly the relationship turns and becomes more
relationship turns and becomes more controlling and more more abusive to you
controlling and more more abusive to you often I think almost it's worse than a
often I think almost it's worse than a friendship to be honest with you because
friendship to be honest with you because you you as this PO person pointed out I
you you as this PO person pointed out I was interviewing this morning Sabrina
was interviewing this morning Sabrina was pointing out is that you trust
was pointing out is that you trust friends with things that you don't
friends with things that you don't always trust a romantic partner you
always trust a romantic partner you divulge things that you don't always
divulge things that you don't always tell your family you're you're really
tell your family you're you're really giving this person a lot of animation
giving this person a lot of animation and you don't realize that they may be
and you don't realize that they may be working against you or that they may not
working against you or that they may not be a safe individual I know for me
be a safe individual I know for me here's the part that was really painful
here's the part that was really painful about my history is I'm autistic I had a
about my history is I'm autistic I had a real rough time making relationships as
real rough time making relationships as a child I didn't fit in very well I felt
a child I didn't fit in very well I felt very lonely I it perpetuated an
very lonely I it perpetuated an adulthood I thought somehow getting a
adulthood I thought somehow getting a degree and being educated would somehow
degree and being educated would somehow make things better now it made me then
make things better now it made me then the token psychologist that people like
the token psychologist that people like to pull out and say I know her so it
to pull out and say I know her so it really wasn't an authentic relationship
really wasn't an authentic relationship it was more being used more
it was more being used more transactional so when I met this
transactional so when I met this individual who just seemed to be so
individual who just seemed to be so accepting so really liked me a lot it
accepting so really liked me a lot it was intoxicating to me it's something
was intoxicating to me it's something that I have not really experienced on
that I have not really experienced on that level before but then I I forgot
that level before but then I I forgot what is too good to be true probably
what is too good to be true probably isn't real and and I got into this
isn't real and and I got into this relationship so unfortunately I feel
relationship so unfortunately I feel like that kind of primed me there were a
like that kind of primed me there were a lot of things that primed me for that
lot of things that primed me for that Rel I mean I was widowed too there was a
Rel I mean I was widowed too there was a lot of things that primed me for my
lot of things that primed me for my vulnerability to that toxic person but
vulnerability to that toxic person but but getting used to bad behavior does
but getting used to bad behavior does make it harder to see bad
Behavior there's there's so much there um you said maybe worse with friends too
um you said maybe worse with friends too you know you share so much um another
you know you share so much um another element back kind of back to the Sandra
element back kind of back to the Sandra Brown stuff I think there's a tactic
Brown stuff I think there's a tactic that um that the pedophiles use in
that um that the pedophiles use in things um twinship or twinning um I
things um twinship or twinning um I imagine between friends too that you can
imagine between friends too that you can you could really have a sense of like
you could really have a sense of like this is my this is my brother or this is
this is my this is my brother or this is my sister like we or we are like twins
my sister like we or we are like twins right um how how can that be used or is
right um how how can that be used or is it yeah it well it just develops Rapport
it yeah it well it just develops Rapport and Trust so that you end up feeling
and Trust so that you end up feeling like they get me and that you're going
like they get me and that you're going to prioritize them over maybe other
to prioritize them over maybe other relationships they sort of get elevated
relationships they sort of get elevated and there's this the same thing that
and there's this the same thing that happens in a toxic romantic relationship
happens in a toxic romantic relationship happens they isolate you um they start
happens they isolate you um they start to like manage you know gas light you
to like manage you know gas light you around your feelings they prioritize
around your feelings they prioritize themselves over other people but often
themselves over other people but often because we're so emotionally invested we
because we're so emotionally invested we don't recognize the toxicity we just
don't recognize the toxicity we just sort of experience this as man they're
sort of experience this as man they're just really really they like me so much
just really really they like me so much and we're best friends but we don't
and we're best friends but we don't realize that there's these elements
realize that there's these elements aren't good it's yeah it's hard to
aren't good it's yeah it's hard to explain because it's it's
explain because it's it's so it's it's so uh Insidious it's yeah
so it's it's so uh Insidious it's yeah I'm I'm learning this more and more that
I'm I'm learning this more and more that there's there are ideas and there are
there's there are ideas and there are patterns and then there's Nuance on the
patterns and then there's Nuance on the patterns one that I'd like to go a
patterns one that I'd like to go a little deeper on you talked about um you
little deeper on you talked about um you know prioritizing this friend over other
know prioritizing this friend over other relationships now a narcissist often has
relationships now a narcissist often has a fan club so if you get into a close
a fan club so if you get into a close friendship with a narcissist you can be
friendship with a narcissist you can be in their fan club and you cannot realize
in their fan club and you cannot realize it seems you you could be isolated from
it seems you you could be isolated from people who are Outsiders but not appear
people who are Outsiders but not appear socially isolated you're you're more in
socially isolated you're you're more in a cult is is that kind of how this is
a cult is is that kind of how this is that a Nuance on the isolation yeah it
that a Nuance on the isolation yeah it is because think of for example the mean
is because think of for example the mean girl who's the bully she'll trct other
girl who's the bully she'll trct other people who want to be in who like the
people who want to be in who like the power of feeling special so they will
power of feeling special so they will then become part of her Entourage in
then become part of her Entourage in order for them to be part of the click
order for them to be part of the click and make sure that they're not on the
and make sure that they're not on the out or even think about the queen bee
out or even think about the queen bee there's another example of a female
there's another example of a female narcissist archetype she gets to sort of
narcissist archetype she gets to sort of dictate what everybody does around her
dictate what everybody does around her and you comply because you want her
and you comply because you want her approval it feels better to have her
approval it feels better to have her approval than to have her contempt so
approval than to have her contempt so they control a lot by so I guess what
they control a lot by so I guess what you're starting to help me identify the
you're starting to help me identify the difference too because I'm having a I'm
difference too because I'm having a I'm trying to think rapidly on my feet here
trying to think rapidly on my feet here what's the underlying Dynamic I've not
what's the underlying Dynamic I've not thought a lot about this so I I think
thought a lot about this so I I think the big thing is they appeal to to your
the big thing is they appeal to to your need for belonging intensely your need
need for belonging intensely your need for connection and so you're willing to
for connection and so you're willing to sacrifice control you're willing to
sacrifice control you're willing to sacrifice even your own integrity and
sacrifice even your own integrity and standards in order to fit in and feel
standards in order to fit in and feel accepted by this person and not realize
accepted by this person and not realize that because that it's so intoxicating
that because that it's so intoxicating the sense of being seen by this
the sense of being seen by this individual although you're actually not
individual although you're actually not seen it feels like you're being seen but
seen it feels like you're being seen but you're not really being seen but by but
you're not really being seen but by but that that attention by the individual is
that that attention by the individual is so feels so intoxicated that you're
so feels so intoxicated that you're willing to sacrifice yourself you're
willing to sacrifice yourself you're willing to sacrifice what matters most
willing to sacrifice what matters most to you to have this attention yeah yeah
to you to have this attention yeah yeah and then you know you could sacrifice
and then you know you could sacrifice old relationships and and be thrust into
old relationships and and be thrust into new ones and feel like you're part of
new ones and feel like you're part of the the club The Mean Girls whatever it
the the club The Mean Girls whatever it is exactly what role does do physical
is exactly what role does do physical space have in this I've heard ideas
space have in this I've heard ideas about how um maybe taking people on a
about how um maybe taking people on a trip or something like that um can also
trip or something like that um can also U make them more exposed to The
U make them more exposed to The Narcissist it can I've never made that
Narcissist it can I've never made that connection before but I I certainly can
connection before but I I certainly can see how that works that way
see how that works that way that that giving them special gifts
that that giving them special gifts giving them um taking them on trips you
giving them um taking them on trips you know special favors that would
know special favors that would definitely would build a sense of
definitely would build a sense of specialness because we all basically
specialness because we all basically hunger see here's the problem with
hunger see here's the problem with narcissism and why I think we find it
narcissism and why I think we find it extremely compelling not only just
extremely compelling not only just because it's very toxic and mess with us
because it's very toxic and mess with us because there's a part of all of us that
because there's a part of all of us that wishes we special yeah there's deep you
wishes we special yeah there's deep you know cohat talked about this that
know cohat talked about this that there's two basic needs that we all
there's two basic needs that we all innately have we want to be seen and
innately have we want to be seen and understood he calls that mirroring not
understood he calls that mirroring not to be confused confused with a
to be confused confused with a narcissist mirring you but he calls it
narcissist mirring you but he calls it mirring that's Attunement another way of
mirring that's Attunement another way of thinking it's emotional Attunement and
thinking it's emotional Attunement and the other one is to be the apple of the
the other one is to be the apple of the eye that's what he calls it and that is
eye that's what he calls it and that is to be the one unique special person to
to be the one unique special person to someone and ideally we should that
someone and ideally we should that should be our parents think that we are
should be our parents think that we are per perfection in ourselves because we
per perfection in ourselves because we are theirs and they are ours and there's
are theirs and they are ours and there's this wonderful experience of delight in
this wonderful experience of delight in each other we need to have that that's a
each other we need to have that that's a that's a core need for all of us what
that's a core need for all of us what happens in a narcissistic relation ship
happens in a narcissistic relation ship during the love bombing phase is you
during the love bombing phase is you re-experience it through the
re-experience it through the idealization not realizing it's not real
idealization not realizing it's not real and it's actually I'm just making this
and it's actually I'm just making this up on the Fly you're the apple of their
up on the Fly you're the apple of their eye you're never it's not it's not an
eye you're never it's not it's not an actual real thing there's no mutuality
actual real thing there's no mutuality to this it's an imaginary experience of
to this it's an imaginary experience of which they they see you as the idealized
which they they see you as the idealized caricature to their narrative not really
caricature to their narrative not really you they don't see
you they don't see you and that re-experience are you
you and that re-experience are you saying the victim would re-experience
saying the victim would re-experience what they're what they're sort of hoping
what they're what they're sort of hoping to get in in that childhood Apple of the
to get in in that childhood Apple of the eye parental love thing but it's but
eye parental love thing but it's but it's a false experience exactly and does
it's a false experience exactly and does does that regress the victim
does that regress the victim no that's does it cause regression um I
no that's does it cause regression um I guess maybe it could I mean because yeah
guess maybe it could I mean because yeah I guess it does because what we do is we
I guess it does because what we do is we succumb to it so that to me that would
succumb to it so that to me that would be regression right okay we move into a
be regression right okay we move into a dependency with this individ yeah
dependency with this individ yeah actually we do we move into a dependency
actually we do we move into a dependency with this individual right and then
with this individual right and then become and then we we place their
become and then we we place their opinion above our own so we lose
opinion above our own so we lose ourselves we sacrifice that's what we're
ourselves we sacrifice that's what we're doing we're sacrificing the idealization
doing we're sacrificing the idealization thinking it's being the Apple the
thinking it's being the Apple the experience for our own integrity and
experience for our own integrity and self which yeah right that's regressive
self which yeah right that's regressive experience
experience okay man seems impossible to be I mean I
okay man seems impossible to be I mean I so I've interviewed a guy named Robert
so I've interviewed a guy named Robert Green who wrote a book called The Art of
Green who wrote a book called The Art of Seduction um I love him I'd love to
Seduction um I love him I'd love to interview him he's amazing man yeah
interview him he's amazing man yeah interesting guy and um you know that
interesting guy and um you know that that's a that's a pickup artist handbook
that's a that's a pickup artist handbook and uh one of the chapters is called
and uh one of the chapters is called effect or regression and it just seems
effect or regression and it just seems that the narcissist game is is the
that the narcissist game is is the seduction game but with no conscience um
seduction game but with no conscience um with a sort of superhuman energy and it
with a sort of superhuman energy and it it seems so devastating and so hard to
it seems so devastating and so hard to overcome um do do you have any tips for
overcome um do do you have any tips for being narcissist
proof I I'm not for sure we completely can ever be yeah that's the hard news is
can ever be yeah that's the hard news is that because they is is as Don Hennessy
that because they is is as Don Hennessy says if you haven't had it happen it's
says if you haven't had it happen it's just not met a sophisticated enough
just not met a sophisticated enough Predator
Predator yet so there is always going to be
yet so there is always going to be somebody out there who's better at it
somebody out there who's better at it that's how Bernie maid off was able to
that's how Bernie maid off was able to be successful or any of the other
be successful or any of the other terrible people that we talk a lot about
terrible people that we talk a lot about that just really make a big impact
that just really make a big impact publicly think of P didy for
publicly think of P didy for example but but I do think what helps is
example but but I do think what helps is to really know ourselves and to know our
to really know ourselves and to know our flaws understand our vulnerabilities
flaws understand our vulnerabilities know where know what makes you
know where know what makes you emotionally hungry what what where are
emotionally hungry what what where are your losses in your life if you can
your losses in your life if you can understand I was I lately been reading
understand I was I lately been reading Dr romany's book um it's not you she
Dr romany's book um it's not you she talks about know your backstory if you
talks about know your backstory if you can know your backstory and where your
can know your backstory and where your point I always say it's like this you
point I always say it's like this you don't walk into a grocery store hungry
don't walk into a grocery store hungry don't walk into a relationship hungry
don't walk into a relationship hungry right but the challenges can we
right but the challenges can we recognize when we're walking into a
recognize when we're walking into a relationship hungry most of the time we
relationship hungry most of the time we don't but to the degree that you know
don't but to the degree that you know yourself you can then know your
yourself you can then know your vulnerabilities and you can be more
vulnerabilities and you can be more alert to these types of tactics I
alert to these types of tactics I definitely do think it's helpful to know
definitely do think it's helpful to know what they are I know people like why is
what they are I know people like why is all this attention in the media aren't
all this attention in the media aren't we overt talking about it no well you
we overt talking about it no well you can only recognize something by knowing
can only recognize something by knowing something that you should recognize you
something that you should recognize you know we do need education it's really
know we do need education it's really really important but I but learning it
really important but I but learning it and not also being a student of yourself
and not also being a student of yourself doesn't get you a whole lot further
doesn't get you a whole lot further ahead you need to do both you need to
ahead you need to do both you need to know it but also know
know it but also know yourself you mentioned you know people
yourself you mentioned you know people who had a fall like Bernie mid off is is
who had a fall like Bernie mid off is is there a limit on how far that these
there a limit on how far that these these people can go it starts to seem
these people can go it starts to seem like you know if a narcissist is
like you know if a narcissist is managing the reality that they're
managing the reality that they're feeding the people around them that they
feeding the people around them that they do they need to keep contact with those
do they need to keep contact with those many people or can they sort of
many people or can they sort of establish um you know lieutenants who
establish um you know lieutenants who then go and do their bidding and and can
then go and do their bidding and and can they you know effectively build a cult I
they you know effectively build a cult I mean you know cult leaders are often
mean you know cult leaders are often narcissist teams um and and use
narcissist teams um and and use hierarchy or does it always require
hierarchy or does it always require their direct attention is that limited I
their direct attention is that limited I I I just wonder how far it all goes well
I I just wonder how far it all goes well I think of Hitler you know he's a good
I think of Hitler you know he's a good example he had lieutenants who then
example he had lieutenants who then acted on his behalf that so I do think
acted on his behalf that so I do think it's possible I think that's a hard
it's possible I think that's a hard structure you have to be a unique person
structure you have to be a unique person to be able to to have people work like
to be able to to have people work like that for you and work in your direction
that for you and work in your direction so I I don't generally they think that
so I I don't generally they think that they usually are that sophisticated to
they usually are that sophisticated to do that but the other this is the other
do that but the other this is the other hard truth that I think that we you you
hard truth that I think that we you you reminded me of another myth that we
reminded me of another myth that we often associate with narcissists and
often associate with narcissists and that is or with Psychopaths and
that is or with Psychopaths and sociopaths is that there is a bottom
sociopaths is that there is a bottom there's a limit to what they'll do no
there's a limit to what they'll do no there's
there's not it's only to what they can get away
not it's only to what they can get away with right if they have no empathy then
with right if they have no empathy then then there there is no limit they will
then there there is no limit they will go to any lengths as long as they can
go to any lengths as long as they can and that's we always assume Civility and
and that's we always assume Civility and there is no civility we need to we need
there is no civility we need to we need to when you're dealing with somebody
to when you're dealing with somebody like that stop thinking there is end
like that stop thinking there is end point there is no end point the end
point there is no end point the end point is
point is destruction the end point is destruction
destruction the end point is destruction so so do you do you advise people often
so so do you do you advise people often to to just cut ties and and get out of
to to just cut ties and and get out of town when they deal with these people
town when they deal with these people even if it's going to totally Rock their
even if it's going to totally Rock their lives yeah if you can you can always I
lives yeah if you can you can always I mean and not every toxic person in my
mean and not every toxic person in my life have I just cut ties with for lots
life have I just cut ties with for lots of complicated reasons I don't think
of complicated reasons I don't think it's always achievable but to the degree
it's always achievable but to the degree that you can I do think that's
that you can I do think that's definitely what the route you should go
definitely what the route you should go I think this the safest route the the
I think this the safest route the the challenge to me is what do we do with
challenge to me is what do we do with all these taxic people when nobody wants
all these taxic people when nobody wants to have anything to do with them I don't
to have anything to do with them I don't know what we're going to do with them
know what we're going to do with them but but yeah I think to degree we can
but but yeah I think to degree we can isolate ourselves and I the other thing
isolate ourselves and I the other thing this came out of Bill Ed's work he has a
this came out of Bill Ed's work he has a new book called uh um the new world of
new book called uh um the new world of adult bullies he talks about we need
adult bullies he talks about we need better consequences I agree with him
better consequences I agree with him totally even Chuck Derry is talking
totally even Chuck Derry is talking about consequences for men with male
about consequences for men with male violence we need to have because what
violence we need to have because what haven't you noticed that they talk their
haven't you noticed that they talk their way out of problems really really well
way out of problems really really well right they're fantastic at it seen I
right they're fantastic at it seen I know it's sort of like this bravado and
know it's sort of like this bravado and a aity and it's an incredible mix and
a aity and it's an incredible mix and but we need to stop as a society we need
but we need to stop as a society we need to stop hold the line and and hold them
to stop hold the line and and hold them accountable and we need to make it
accountable and we need to make it painful because their L their moral
painful because their L their moral development level is on the bottom it's
development level is on the bottom it's only based on consequences it's not on
only based on consequences it's not on any higher principle than that yeah if
any higher principle than that yeah if you if you do cut ties and leave is
you if you do cut ties and leave is there any way that you can leave some
there any way that you can leave some sort of consequence behind is there a is
sort of consequence behind is there a is there a grenade that you can roll behind
there a grenade that you can roll behind you as you as you walk out the door
you as you as you walk out the door there is and that's you becoming your
there is and that's you becoming your best version of
best version of yourself but the narcissist will
yourself but the narcissist will continue to abuse yeah they will
continue to abuse yeah they will continue to abuse but they hate knowing
continue to abuse but they hate knowing that you're doing better okay fair
that you're doing better okay fair enough fair enough um I have a question
enough fair enough um I have a question from one of our listeners uh he goes by
from one of our listeners uh he goes by the online name decentralized gaming
the online name decentralized gaming 0000 and he asks what other
0000 and he asks what other personalities should one be wary of
personalities should one be wary of besides narcissists and how might they
besides narcissists and how might they be recognized there Joe dearo in his
be recognized there Joe dearo in his book for personal or dangerous
book for personal or dangerous personalities identifies F I'm sorry let
personalities identifies F I'm sorry let me say it again Joe Navaro in his book
me say it again Joe Navaro in his book dangerous personality identifies four
dangerous personality identifies four types I highly agree with them they are
types I highly agree with them they are the narcissist the paranoid the
the narcissist the paranoid the antisocial personality disorder and the
antisocial personality disorder and the borderline so how do you recognize them
borderline so how do you recognize them really quick like if the narcissist is a
really quick like if the narcissist is a person who's the only person in the room
person who's the only person in the room and they're going to use you and they're
and they're going to use you and they're kind of they're charismatic and dynamic
kind of they're charismatic and dynamic and you're going to be very attracted
and you're going to be very attracted but they're they're kind of Lawless and
but they're they're kind of Lawless and very in indulgent the the paranoid
very in indulgent the the paranoid person everybody is against them they
person everybody is against them they may believe that you're on the inside
may believe that you're on the inside and you're not but that they have this
and you're not but that they have this they sort of see threats behind
they sort of see threats behind everything
everything and conspiracy theories um they
and conspiracy theories um they suspicious of your behavior whatever
suspicious of your behavior whatever they do they quiz you a lot ask you why
they do they quiz you a lot ask you why and does rapid distrust the antisocial
and does rapid distrust the antisocial personality disorder is a person who's
personality disorder is a person who's highly manipulative extremely glib and
highly manipulative extremely glib and Charming um but there is no conscience
Charming um but there is no conscience No Boundaries and they push on
No Boundaries and they push on everything they're very manipulative
everything they're very manipulative very exploitive and they're ruthless
very exploitive and they're ruthless you'll see them break rules and laws and
you'll see them break rules and laws and then the morine personality disorder is
then the morine personality disorder is tends to be extremely stable they tend
tends to be extremely stable they tend to be very flighty very emotional hot
to be very flighty very emotional hot and cold up down uh close and then
and cold up down uh close and then they're they interpret your behavior is
they're they interpret your behavior is the next moment angry and abandoning
the next moment angry and abandoning there's this this this constant fluidity
there's this this this constant fluidity to the relationship it feels very
to the relationship it feels very extreme very constantly changing so
extreme very constantly changing so those are things to watch out for he
those are things to watch out for he also mentions and I agree is that we
also mentions and I agree is that we tend to think that the one of these
tend to think that the one of these these personalities are kind of insular
these personalities are kind of insular and don't co-occur no that's wrong they
and don't co-occur no that's wrong they frequently co-occur and it's possible to
frequently co-occur and it's possible to have multiple things wrong at the same
have multiple things wrong at the same time you can be ADHD narcissistic and be
time you can be ADHD narcissistic and be depressed that's very possible you could
depressed that's very possible you could also be a narcissist who has borderline
also be a narcissist who has borderline personality traits that's very possible
personality traits that's very possible so he talks about watch for the stacking
so he talks about watch for the stacking of personalities traits on top of each
of personalities traits on top of each other the more that they stack the more
other the more that they stack the more dangerous the individual
dangerous the individual is you mentioned the the borderline
is you mentioned the the borderline being hot and cold too is is there a
being hot and cold too is is there a high element of sexuality with that too
high element of sexuality with that too or is that um is that a histrionic thing
or is that um is that a histrionic thing I'm I'm not quite familiar on where that
I'm I'm not quite familiar on where that line Falls histrionic to me which we
line Falls histrionic to me which we don't see a whole lot of is the sort of
don't see a whole lot of is the sort of the dramatic fainting uh everything's
the dramatic fainting uh everything's kind of hypercondriac it's it's very
kind of hypercondriac it's it's very yeah just imagine exaggerated extremely
yeah just imagine exaggerated extremely exaggerated and they're not a very
exaggerated and they're not a very frequent personality profile that we see
frequent personality profile that we see these days um so I think hypersexuality
these days um so I think hypersexuality is a part of all of them here's how
is a part of all of them here's how here's how I see it shift the narcissist
here's how I see it shift the narcissist is hypersexual in the sense of looking
is hypersexual in the sense of looking for novelty excitement Thrills and
for novelty excitement Thrills and they're using people it's it's also a
they're using people it's it's also a way for them to get you to bond the
way for them to get you to bond the psychopath is using it because they're
psychopath is using it because they're extremely predatory and they love to
extremely predatory and they love to debase you and there's a sadistic
debase you and there's a sadistic element to it the Border Lion's using it
element to it the Border Lion's using it because they just love to be loved and
because they just love to be loved and they're going to rush it because you're
they're going to rush it because you're the best thing they've ever met okay and
the best thing they've ever met okay and then the paranoid not the paranoid
then the paranoid not the paranoid probably wouldn't use it actually and
probably wouldn't use it actually and maybe that's the one person I wouldn't
maybe that's the one person I wouldn't attribute it to the histrionic
attribute it to the histrionic definitely would use it as well but that
definitely would use it as well but that would be used it because you love them
would be used it because you love them so much they want you to adore
so much they want you to adore them yeah
them yeah Dr kri this has been a fascinating
Dr kri this has been a fascinating conversation I have one more question
conversation I have one more question but before I ask it where should people
but before I ask it where should people look for you online they can find me
look for you online they can find me everywhere at Cary macavoy phd.com or
everywhere at Cary macavoy phd.com or Cary macavoy PhD I'm on all the major
Cary macavoy PhD I'm on all the major platforms excellent well we'll put links
platforms excellent well we'll put links to those in the description thank you
to those in the description thank you and Dr Carrie mcaboy my last question is
and Dr Carrie mcaboy my last question is how can we learn to trust others after
how can we learn to trust others after surviving narcissistic abuse
surviving narcissistic abuse slowly very slowly and often you'll feel
slowly very slowly and often you'll feel like you don't trust anybody I hear this
like you don't trust anybody I hear this all the time I don't trust I hate that I
all the time I don't trust I hate that I don't trust no it's you're trusting
don't trust no it's you're trusting you're trusting me you're telling me
you're trusting me you're telling me something confidential right now that's
something confidential right now that's trust what you're doing now is you're
trust what you're doing now is you're vetting people and you're used to doing
vetting people and you're used to doing what's called um unearned you know just
what's called um unearned you know just I'm trying to think of Sandra Brown's
I'm trying to think of Sandra Brown's term she has a way of talking about it
term she has a way of talking about it do you remember how she says it no she
do you remember how she says it no she earn trust versus versus there's another
earn trust versus versus there's another form of trust but we don't now just give
form of trust but we don't now just give trust away people have to they have to
trust away people have to they have to show that they've earned it and when we
show that they've earned it and when we expect that from people it feels foreign
expect that from people it feels foreign it feels like we're being distrusting
it feels like we're being distrusting but the paranoid person is the
but the paranoid person is the distrusting person and that is where
distrusting person and that is where they're highly suspicious and see you
they're highly suspicious and see you know minations behind every possible
know minations behind every possible door we're not doing that we're just not
door we're not doing that we're just not be rushing to relationships not rushing
be rushing to relationships not rushing to disclose the lots of ourselves not
to disclose the lots of ourselves not rushing to be vulnerable so get used to
rushing to be vulnerable so get used to being slow to trust to be to vet people
being slow to trust to be to vet people and see it to me it's almost like
and see it to me it's almost like following a person on the dance floor
following a person on the dance floor they take a step you take a step they
they take a step you take a step they take a step you take a step and it's got
take a step you take a step and it's got to be that mutuality that
to be that mutuality that reciprocity well Dr Carrie mckoy thank
reciprocity well Dr Carrie mckoy thank you so much um for your work and for
you so much um for your work and for this interview and for that final
this interview and for that final message I really appreciate it thank you
message I really appreciate it thank you to help raise awareness about
to help raise awareness about narcissistic abuse please share this
narcissistic abuse please share this video it helps a lot
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