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Entrepreneurship Expert: How To Build A $1m Business Without Hard Work!

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Core Theme

This content explains the fundamental components of any business and offers practical strategies for learning new skills rapidly, emphasizing that understanding business principles is a "superpower" accessible to everyone, not just those with formal business education.

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so every business from the smallest

startup to the largest corporation in

the world has five fundamental Parts if

you want to create a business or

interviewing for your first job or

interviewing for your first big

promotion understanding this is a

superpower it's so exciting and fun Josh

Kaufman the world famous business Expert

entrepreneur and best-selling author

Renown for his practical approach to

mastering business productivity and

Rapid skill acquisition this is the

foundation of every business plan that

has or ever will exist so Step One is

value creation find those important

unmet needs and then focus on meeting

those is this enough of a problem for

you to pay money to solve it how do you

find out if there's a big enough market

for your idea the easiest best thing to

do is just step two then marketing and

humans have five drives the drive to

acquire to bond to learn to feel to

defend and the more drives that you hook

into the more attractive the business

offer is going to be so what is step

three the third part of every business

is the fourth part is particularly

important which is and the fifth part is

what a lot of people struggle with but

I'm here to help you so the fifth part

is Josh The Narrative out in the market

is you have to do 10,000 hours to learn

anything you're telling me it's actually

20 hours is the key yes or 40 minutes a

day for about a month so how do I do

that then the best way to approach this

is to start with that's the secret

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thank you and enjoy this episode [Music]

[Music]

Josh why why why did you write a book

called the personal MBA it's a world

class Business book that sold almost a

million copies so far it's a real iconic

book in the category but why why did you

feel compelled to write that book

because I can tell by the thickness of

it it took you a long time it did so

there must have been some sort of

personal motivation that was pretty

strong to write that book sure uh a

couple of things um curiosity

and persistence and I was solving my own

problem um so one of the things that

that happened is right after school I

got a job at a big company and I was

working with a lot of people who had

just graduated from top 15 business

programs um I got this job straight out

of undergrad I had no idea what I was

doing and I really wanted to learn like

what what are what are we doing here

what is what is business how does it

work what's important to know what

what's not important to know and so one

of the things that I tried to do with

the personal MBA um and and one of the

the reasons like how the project got

started was I figured that there was

there was a book written by a business

school professor in the 1950s or

something and I just needed to go out

and find that book and read that book

and then I would understand the

fundamentals then I would understand the

basics of of what it is that that we're

all doing here

and I looked and I looked and I read and

I read and I I couldn't find it and so

at a certain

point that I had essentially spent

months reading just going through

category after category just trying to

understand for myself what businesses

are how businesses work and at a certain

point I realized like this is important

to me and there's something that should

exist in the world that for some reason

doesn't exist in the world and I think I

need to be the person to make that to do

that and so that's when the personal MBA

be went from just this crazy side

project that I that I did post undergrad

into essentially a second full-time time

job reading and research and and trying

to to decide for myself what are the

critical parts of business how do

businesses work how do they function and

then I decided to put that in a form

that other people people could read and

benefit from as well what is an MBA

master of Business Administration it's

big big degree um actually one of the most

most

economically uh successful academic

degrees that exist um over the past

several decades uh growth in uh business

masters programs worldwide has has just

exploded and so for better or worse when

adults decide that their interest

in business the first thing they do is

go to Google or Amazon and they type in

the letters MBA and they start looking

for graduate business school school

programs and I think that's a mistake I

think there's there's a reason that

people want to learn business there's a

reason that people um find this area of

of knowledge useful and I don't

necessarily think Academia is the the

place to start I think there's an

enormous amount of business knowledge

and skill that you can develop on your

own um by understanding the most

important Concepts around what

businesses are and how they work and

using them in your day-to-day life using

it in the career that you already have

using it to start something new on your

own and just a a few very simple

straightforward ideas go a very long way

and so my goal in writing the Pumba was to

explain business to someone who has no

knowledge no experience no idea what's

going on start from absolute Square zero

and explain all of the different parts

of a business how they work how they

interrelate to each other and so you can

take that knowledge and do good work

whatever it is that that you do in your

life or in your career when you say do

good work we're talking about an outcome

there what kind of outcomes do you think

if someone's just clicked on this

conversation now and we you know with

the knowledge that we're going to talk

about this as many as well as other

things what do you think the outcome for

them could be if they got access to the

information that you put in this book

the personal MBA but also from listening

to this conversation sure uh so many of

of the readers of the personal MBA over

the years um our early career

professionals are just getting started

in their career in some way shape or

form and I can't tell you the number of

times that that I've heard from someone

who's like I'm interviewing for my first

job or I am interviewing for my first

big promotion um I actually have a

friend who is who was in this position

uh a couple months ago she's like I'm a

skilled professional I've been working

for a while there's an opportunity to

move into management here and part of

that interview is going to be they're

going to ask me like how how do we

improve the business that we're in she's

like I'm trained as an engineer I don't

know about any of the this business

stuff and so there's a very simple way

of understanding what a business is what

a business does the primary parts that

every single business has and and how

those processes

interrelate and what that knowledge gets

you is the ability to take a look at any

existing business and understand it in a

very deep and fundamental way so you can

take a complex organization you can

break it down into parts that are very

simple straightforward easy to

understand and then you can take that

knowledge to ask a series of very useful

questions how is this business creating

value how do they attract the attention

of people who might want or need what

this business provides how do they

convince people to pull out their wallet

or checkbook or credit card um and and

give the business money how does the

business deliver the value that it it

promising to its paying customers and

then is the business bringing in money

how's the business spending money and a

is it bringing in more than it spending

if not there's a problem um and more

importantly is it enough is it enough to

make all of the time and energy and

effort that's being put into the

business by the owner and the employees

worthwhile and that's the essence of

finance and so understanding business in

this very systematic way is a superpower

it it allows you to take a look at

anything like the businesses that are

happening in the world all around us it

helps you understand them if you want to

create a business this is the foundation

of every business plan that has or ever

will exist because each of these parts

is universal essential and fundamental

you have to answer these questions and

so by having this framework in your head

um going back to my friend earlier her

prep for the interview was very simple

we had a 15minute conversation about

what those things might look like she

went away and did her prep and she went

into the interview the next day and she

was offered the job and one of the

things that comes out of having this

deep understanding of business even for

potentially very young or very Junior

started understanding these things being

able to ask these questions being able

to know what's important and what's not

and think like an owner or an operator

of the

business is what the owners and

operators and Executives and managers

are looking for in terms of people to

hire people to recruit or people to

start companies and so the more you

understand how all of this works at a

deeply fundamental level the more

opportunities you're going to have I

think it's I think it's a skill That's

essential for every person to to know

and and be conversent

I think from the stats you said about

how the desire to sign up to a academic

MBA have increased most people would

agree true because you know that's a

reflection of demand in the market

you're saying more and more people are

going to University and trying to do a business

business

course are they being scammed because if

you think about the promise they're

signing up to even through the lens that

you've just described they're being

marketed something sure is that

institution delivering the value that

they're being marketed I.E I guess the

the promise is that you'll have a better

career you'll earn more money if I go to

university and do a business degree is

that being

delivered the answer to that is it

depends and the it depends is it depends

on what you want for yourself and your

life and so um approximately 2third of

business school graduates um go into

either management consulting or Investment

Investment

Banking um the remainder of them the

vast majority go into working for

extremely large companies and so if you

want your life to look like that then

the promise that is is very often

delivered but with business business

school programs is you're essentially

buying yourself a very expensive

interview to have an opportunity at a

company or a firm or an industry where

that is the primary mode of of um um of

getting into it

now the price of that interview can be

very very Steep and so um the the top 10

Business Schools um as we're talking

right now charge anywhere between $240 and

and

$250,000 for a two-year

program that's an enormous amount of

money and that's usually financed with

debt and so if you don't have a a for

example if you're not working for a

company that is willing to sponsor your

way through and pay the tuition costs

most of these degrees are are financed

with debt and that debt is going to be

with you regardless of whether or not

you like your career

regardless of the the economic situation

that you you graduate into regardless

whether or not you get a job at at the

end of it

so you're taking on an enormous OB an

enormous obligation spending a lot of

money borrowing a lot of money with a

very unsure outcome at the end is there

any correlation between getting an MBA

and long-term Career Success uh it it's

funny uh this has been asked by very

many people and the answer is always no

um so my my two favorite studies here um

Jeffrey feffer and Christina Fong at

Stanford University at the time this was

the early 2000s business school

professors did a study of do business

school programs work because if they did

you would expect to see more successful Executives

Executives

professionals having business school

degrees and what they found is no it

makes absolutely no difference and my my

favorite quote um was was by the lead

offer um Jeffrey feffer was like if you

are good enough to get in you are good

enough to do well

regardless it's a credentialing system

it's it's a pre selection um but really

like the people who make things happen

in business are people individuals with

skills and abilities and the abil the

the the Curiosity and the drive to to

make things happen you don't necessarily

get that from having three letters after

the end of your name there's going to be

so many people that are listening that

want to start their own businesses

they're probably currently in a

corporate job right now and they're

thinking gosh I have this idea I'd love

to give it a go but something is holding

them in place and from reading your book

it's it's the first thing that tends to

hold people in place is just their

belief that business is complicated yeah

um from everything you've come to learn

and all the testimonials you've had do

you agree with that belief that business

is complicated and or how difficult do

you think it is for the average person

with an idea to go from working in a job

to earning I don't know $10,000 a month

running their own business do you think

that's achievable for most people I

think it is achievable for most people

yeah and I I think uh um I think

business is complex in the sense of

there are many moving Parts it's not

just one thing they're interr

relatednesses that you need to

understand it's not complicated in the

sense of the most important ideas

principles things to do things to

understand are not all that difficult

when it get gets down to it um I think

in business in general um somewhat for

status related reasons but business

people like to feel fancy and

complicated and and sometimes you signal

status or sophistication by making

things sound really big or difficult or

or complex I think that's fundamentally

not the case for business most of the

ideas that we deal with are common sense

and simple

arithmetic and

so we do need to Grapple with the

complexities of the world because as we

were talking earlier the every business

has these five major interrelated parts

we need to understand how those work um

businesses are created by people for the

benefit of other people and so we need

to understand human psychology both our

psychology and the psychology of the

people we inter interact with relate to

whether that's customers or employees

contractors the other people in our

world and then there are certain parts

about how the world Works system and

process how things tend to interact with

each other that's very valuable and

important to know um but

again complex not complicated and I

think there's there's a lot of for for

the person who wants to

start a new business a lot of it comes

down to answering those fundamental

questions how are you going to create

value that someone else in the world

wants or needs okay so let's start so

typically when I do these podcasts I I

try and navigate The Journey right I try

and figure out where to start but this

is going to be the first time I actually

ask you if I am that person who has an

idea in my head um or maybe I've got you

know I'm off to the races with an idea

I've got a I don't know I'm going to

launch a business that sells

candles okay sure I think I can make

candles that smell amazing so what's the

first of those sort of levers or

principles I need to think about when

I'm when I'm designing my business

thinking about my business you know

thinking about making a business plan

what is step one in that Journey yeah

Step One is is the value creation

component which is it it sounds like in

in this particular example the candles

are the the type of value that that

would be created and then the the

relevant question there

is why do people buy candles what are

they looking for when when somebody goes

goes out and they say you know what I

would really like to have a candle right now

now

what do they want what do they need what

are they looking for they want them to

smell nice exactly okay so perfect they

want them to look nice yeah um they want

them to not be a ripoff so they want

them to be cheap guessing they want them

to last a long time I guess sure y last

a long time okay and so this is a a

really interesting thing a lot of the

things around value creation comes come

down to making trade-offs between

competing priorities and

so the perfect product or the perfect

offering would deliver every single

thing that the the customer would like

and it would be free yeah and so a lot

of the the early stage value creation

process is like okay we've identified

some some areas like things that people

are looking for things that people

want can you understand each of those

things in detail around for example what

makes a really good candle set what

makes a candle last longer what allow

Kingdom manufacturing at at a relatively

inexpensive rate all of those things and

then most successful businesses pick one

or two of those things to focus on and

then turn that dial all the way up to 9

10 11 and so for example you might be

able to make the best smelling longest

lasting candle using some complex

chemistry manufacturing process whatever

mhm that might be very expensive to do

so the price of the candle might be

higher than you than you otherwise uh

would like it to be um or you could go

the other direction let's make the

cheapest most ubiquitous candles ever

but then let's focus on the distribution

end of things to have candles in more

places and so you start um this was

something that that I learned how to do

very early in in my career I worked for

a consumer goods manufacturer big

company called Proctor and Gamble who

make everything by the way if people

don't know what Pro everything they

literally they're probably 10 things in

this room that Proctor and Gamble made

yeah toothpaste laundry detergent you

know all of that I I worked on the home

side and one of the things that I took

away was uh every once in a while you'll

you'll read in like the The Wall Street

Journal New York Times whatever about

the the crazy lengths that consumer

goods researchers will will go to to

figure out how people use like paper

towels or something like that I got to

be one of those people for a couple

years and it was

fascinating I've watched so many people

clean their

kitchens and there's there's a certain

amount of like the value creation

process that that is psychology and

anthropology of just going out into the

world with your eyes wide open noticing

what people do asking questions noticing

subtle things that they might not even

pick pick up

on and then if you do more formal

research you can start asking people to

to make explicit trade-offs between

options and so if you could have a

candle that lasted the long time versus

had the most amazing scent throw ever

which one would you pick and you can

start to to kind of navigate the space

of possible solutions in that particular

category by talking to people who buy

candles because you don't want to ask a

random person on the street you want to

talk to people who will actually

purchase the things that that uh that

you're creating

but by paying attention and by asking

questions and starting to to get a feel for

for

how the people who are making these

buying decisions actually navigate the

process of narrowing down options to

make a decision that's where you find

some sometimes the very tiny things that

make an enormous difference that's where

you find the places to innovate right

yeah but people don't know what they

want right so you got to be careful

because if you give people a survey on

candles exactly

they might tell you something but they

might buy you know there's this sort of

Detachment between what we think we want

and how we spend our money totally which

can cause people you know because I'm on

Dragon's St so people I'm halfway

through filming at the moment so I've

had 50 pictures so far and one of the

similar problem set of things that

they're think thinking about set of

questions that they're trying to answer

and the more of those people you can

identify and the more urgent and

pressing the need is

um that's the first thing that you need

to to look for in terms of of

identifying viable markets so they tell

me that they want it I go out there I

speak to people they all tell me that

they want it but that's not enough right

ask them to place a pre-order that

that's that's the step two H okay so

it's it's not the question

isn't do you want it is it's is this

enough of a problem for you to pay money

to solve it um um there's a a guy desk

trainer who who founded

intercom um has a saying I just love

he's like show me a credit card that has

been swiped to solve this problem and I

will concede that the problem is

real and so you're really looking for

like are people is this big enough

important enough are people spending

money to solve this particular need if

so that's a really great sign you're on

the right track okay so what I'm gonna

do then is we're going to before we

spend a lot of money in building out

this new microphone system we're going

to put up a waiting list for the

podcasters we're going to see how many

of them swipe to pre-order it yep and

then if we get I don't know a couple of

hundred a couple of thousand probably a

couple of hundred couple of hundred

swipes with their credit cards to

pre-order this thing even though we

haven't built it yet then we're going to

invest in building it yep does that make

sense it does and then you do a short

run to mitigate your risk first okay you

get your your uh initial Fe feedback

from your first run of customers they

will have opinions about what works and

what doesn't mhm and then um if that is

enough that's when you start like start

small and then you work up to to larger

and larger batches of production because

what's happening a lot out there with

aspiring entrepreneurs is they're

spending two to three years building

their company and it's all leading up to

this launch day where everything's

riding on this big launch day they've

raised I don't know $70,000 for their

whatever sure why is that the wrong

approach to take I think there's a difference

difference

between doing business and playing

business it's like people who get really

really excited of I'm going to start a

company and so the first thing I need to

do is pick a logo and buy my business

cards like that's the signaling parts of

business it's playing a role where the

actual doing of the business is the

value creation Marketing sales value

delivery finance and so the more you can

skip all the early stuff

get to the core of what is going to make

the business succeed or fail figure that

out as quickly as possible and then get

on with it then you're going to have

more than enough time and money to have

fancy business cards and like do do do

that bit but yeah it really is like at

the idea validation stage it's how can

you ask enough people who might be in

the market to spend money to solve this

particular problem how can you get

something valuable in front of them as

quickly as possible what would that look

like and how can you do that

particularly early on if you don't have

a lot of funding in a way that minimizes

time and finance because the worst

possible uh way to go about things is

raise millions of dollars of venture

capital and build up out this whole

thing only to have no one buy it at the

end you started with this point of value

giving value to other people why why is

that the the frame to think through when

you're thinking about the idea yeah I

think if you are not providing value to

other people in a fundamental way you

have no business

business

um a venture that markets and sells

something that does not deliver value to

other people is a scam and so really

like I think there's there's a way of

thinking about business this is one of

the things I find fascinating about it

business to me is is a generative act

you are going out into the world you're

finding a problem you're finding a

solution to that problem you're creating

something that makes the world better in

some fundamental

way and then you're bringing it to the

attention of people who care and you're

convincing them that they need to try

this to actually solve their problem and

then it works and then they give you

money for it it's great so you can just

keep that process going going for for as

long as as it makes sense to everyone

involved like I I think to me a well

running working business system is a

thing of beauty you're solving people's

problems you're being rewarded for it

you're doing it in a way that allows you

to keep solving people's problems and it

makes your life better in the process I

think that's a wonderful way to live

your life and if you don't start

by asking the question what is the

valuable thing that I am going to

deliver to people who care the whole

thing pulls apart what step two then

yeah marketing marketing okay marketing

is fun yeah marketing is is just who

might be interested in this

thing um

and a lot of it is the the the

fundamental thing is if no one knows you

exist no one's going to be able to buy

your thing and and so marketing is is

the process of attracting the attention

of people who might be interested in the

value that that you're creating and in

an Ideal World making them curious

wanting to learn more um asking for

additional information engaging with

what what it is that you have a lot of

people conf conflate Marketing in sales

to me they're distinct processes so so

marketing is the attracting attention

and generating interest and then sales

is the process of convincing someone to

buy and then getting them set up as as

as a

customer and a lot of marketing comes down

down

to what is it exactly that you're trying

to gather attention for and where do

those people generally hang out what are

they curious about what are they already

paying attention to what can you um what

can you take advantage of or dovetail

into in order to attract someone's

attention at the right moment at the

right time

and make them aware that you have

something that could benefit their life

here's what it is here's how you can

benefit from it to be great at marketing

do you think we need to understand the

underlying psychological sort of core

motivations of humans oh absolutely yeah

and you know what those are yeah um

there was a really great book about this

um published years ago called um drive

by Paul Lawrence and and noria um who I

think at the time was the um the dean of

Harvard Business

school and they argued that um humans

have four fundamental drives um and if I

can remember them off the top of my head

the drive to

acquire the drive to bond the drive to

learn and the drive to

defend is there a fifth the drive to

feel the drive to feel is is my addition

to to this okay so yeah and to me like

so the drive to acquire you know let's

go out and buy products in enhance my

career things like that the drive to

learn gather knowledge understand the

world um the drive to bond relationships uh

experiences uh the drive to defend uh

let's protect myself home security

systems you know all all that thing and

for me like entertainment is very much a

a drive to

feel um we don't go to the movies to do

any of those previous four things we go

to the movies to have an experience to

feel motions and so I to me the vast

majority of offers in the

market are designed to to to hook into

or to take advantage of one of those

five core human drives and the more

drives that you you hook into generally

the more attractive the the business

offer is is going to be and so you could

make a a a pretty straightforward

argument that um one of the reasons that

soci media has become so popular over

the last decade is because it hooks into

at least four out of five of these

drives potentially all

five so give me an example of a business

and the drives that it's kind of playing

to in its marketing strategy so if we think

think

about Nike maybe sure yeah so um the the

drive to acquire is straightforward I

need to put things on my feet like shoes

are great um also it is status so so I

would say the the there can be like the

acquiring status drive there can also be

very much like ingroup outgroup Dynamics

are a form of bonding right I'm the type

of person who identify or who will wear

this sort of thing I form relationships

with people who care about these

sneakers these special additions these

athletes these whatever

um less learning less defending

feeling can very much be a part of of a

product experience like people who

strongly identify with certain brands

certain Lifestyles certain ways of of

being in the world like when you put on

something that makes you feel good there

can be an emotional component to that

experience that's very very strong it's

interesting because I was thinking about

Apple as well through that lens Apple's

a great example obviously so if we think

about the drive to acquire very much a

status project product and it always has

been Bond again most much of their

advertising is about connecting people

in connection learn again you know much

of their marketing is about the fact

that you can learn on these devices like

the iPad for example defend they talk

about how encryption a lot and huge

focus on security and privacy right now

for that reason yeah the drive to feel I

guess most of their marketing when I

think about the Vision Pro where they

weirdly show like the dad and his kids

and he's got this massive headset on I

guess that was an attempt to arouse em

The Vision Pro now has this sort of

spatial video where you can you know one

of my team members when they first put

it on for the first time remarked that

they wish they had got spatial videos of

their grandmother that's passed away

because but that's the kind of narrative

that they show with the products as well

is that it's going to they really put at

the heart in the the marketing

initiatives they do so they really do a

really good job at hitting all of these

yeah I I would say do you remember the

early iPod advertisements with like the

white silhouette person dancing on a Col

those advertisements were

straightforward feeling

a thousand songs in your pocket it's how

the songs make you feel this is a way

that you can feel that more often or

more strongly it's pure

emotion and they specifically you know

so a more like straightforward drive to

acquire on a technology product is is

like how many gigabytes of storage does

this thing

have and they talked about they made a

deliberate decision not to talk about

that at all because it didn't matter

people didn't care it was all about

here's how you can feel through the

experience of using this product to have

an experience you wouldn't otherwise

have I mean this highlights a really

important point about marketing but

building products and deciding what to

build which is how important is it to

make something that is logically better

versus something that is emotionally

more compelling yeah in an Ideal World

you do both um you can go a long long

way with

emotion even when you don't have um straightforward

straightforward

Superior product benefits you know going

going back to uh our our discussion of

candles earlier candles have been around

for what hundreds of years like you're

probably not going to to make you know

barring Material Science advancements

you're probably not going to make a a a

technical contribution to Candle science

in the process of making something speak for

for

yourself I mean it's possible it's my

next business IDE I told you yeah um but like

things like the packaging and the

marketing and the scent and the unboxing

experience and the anticipation of

putting it out as as the centerpiece

when all your friends come and all of

that like there are so many emotional

hooks to that sort of

experience that you could argue that

candles are sold

almost all on emotion and that's great

that's the value that's being delivered

do you know a better example of that

I've came across recently liquid death

oh yeah it's just

water what yes they built a billion doll

business selling water in a fancy can

totally and affiliation like there's a

little bit of a bonding or I'm the type

of person who wants to present to the

world in this particular way so I don't

buy Fiji I buy liquid

death sure it's just water it's just

water sometimes it's carbonated or

flavored yeah come on it's water I I saw

some I thought these stats might be out

of date but it was maybe last year the

the year before I saw that they were

selling half a billion dollars of water

and they're like a fairly new market

entrance in the grand scheme of things

and and from what I can observe it's

just a different can yeah and the

packaging matters the affiliation

matters the story matters why do you

think they won I think they were first

so that's also

um you talk about in your book the value

of doing something big and crazy for the

value of doing something big and crazy I

mean they were the first to do something

crazy on the marketing side for water it

was a really boring product category

very straightforward very functional um

and what their big Insight was the way

that we talk about it the way we package

it the way we present it matters and

there's a certain Subs segment of

customers that would not buy a

straightforward bottle of water because

they don't care but if they can signal

something about themselves or a group

affiliation in in some way shape or form

through the packaging of the product

then then to a certain subse of

customers that's valuable I've been

thinking about this theory for a while

last couple of months maybe six months

now that Brands need to especially New

Market entrance in saturated busy

markets like if you're coming out with

an energy drink right now or you're

coming out with a can of water you the

easiest way to market in terms of

marketing is if you you do a really good

job of making it clear that you are the

antithesis of the incumbents yes so you

are a or not an and in your customers's

decision framework for and what I mean

by that is to be very specific um I've

invested in a company called perfect Ted

it's actually the drink in my cup right

now and when in one of my first meetings

with them um when we sat down I said you

know this brand I think will win if the

consumer walks down that Supermarket

aisle and thinks to themselves

I can be a insert incumbent energy drink

brand mhm or a perfect Ted person I

can't possibly be both right and we all

know that well I think a liquid death

customer doesn't believe they can be a

EV and Water customer sure because that

it's so clearly they've stood for

something so much so that in doing so

they stand against

something and and this is what breakout

brands have done Brew dog is a good

example in the UK brw dog came into the

market Indie Punk beer they literally

took Carling beers and stuff like that

to Fields as part of their marketing and

blew it up with dynamite to say we are

not commoditized beer we are the

antithesis we are an awe you're either

with them or you're with us yep but that

takes guts it does it takes Bulls like

liquid death Bulls yeah yeah and there's

there's a whole like on the

psychological side of things the the

studies about signaling and counter

signaling like this is this is how

fashion in in the the broad scale works

so all the cool people high status

fashionable people start wearing a thing

to Signal group affiliation of like we

are the type of people who wear this

yeah and then very quickly you have

follow on folks who like oh the cool

people are wearing this I should start

wearing this too and that happens a

couple Generations until that thing is

at marks and Spencer Target uh choose

your retailer and then

the people who want to distinguish

themselves for from all of the things

that are being sold the mass retailers

will change Fashions specifically to

signal that we are not that and so the

cycle begins

again and so that that's just like

social signaling is a rabbit hole that

you could spend decades going down and

not get to the end of it but it's all

about who am I presenting myself to be

in the world who do I affiliate with who

do I not affiliate with and counter

signaling is noticing a signal that's

happening out there there in the world

and making a deliberate decision to be

the opposite of that or the the the

antithesis of that in some ways

and that is such a fascinating part of human

human

psychology that

um generally speaking if you can so you

could say like um Apple did a lot of

counter signaling because Microsoft you

know some of the incumbent manufacturers

was their uh their famous uh 1984

advertisement was almost pure counter

signaling it was almost pure

emotion and it set them up as the polar

opposite to faceless beig computer box

Corporation and so yeah like if if

there's something that is is the

prevailing Trend in a certain industry

it can often pay to you know in in the

anthropological sense take a step back

notice what's going on here's the signal

that's being sent and then make a

deliberate decision to be the polar

opposite of that it takes guts though

because there's no blueprint for the

opposite yeah and you stand out yeah

which is great you get attacked yeah I

mean that's the the benefit of

controversy too so controversy can be a

wonderful marketing tactic if you use it

responsibly responsibly and so you know

you don't necessarily want to turn your

business into a soap opera but by um by

deliberately courting a certain amount

of controversy focused on the benefits

or the features you can attract a lot of

attention that way and that's what I

mean by the brewog example where they

took beer to their competitiv beer to a

field and blew it up with dynamite sure

and said we are not commoditized beer

they got they got destroyed they got

attacked so so much but the the

controversy is energy and it's making

people make a decision exactly and that

results in what is what became a

multi-billion dollar Indie beer brand

with a fraction of the marketing budget

but also that had been around a fraction

of the time versus the incumbents really

interesting Jane warring was on the

podcast she's the founder of dermologica

and she said the same thing to me she

said you know she's Built This Global

Beauty brand she goes we need to piss

off the 80% to get to the the 20% she go

we don't need everybody to like us

that's not a brand exactly a brand makes

you feel something y um but most people

that are struggling right now with

marketing I think much of the reason

they are struggling is because they are

vanilla wallpaper yeah I mean this going

back to our new product development

conversation that's what a lot of people

struggle with too because they have

their first conversation with somebody

who's like oh I hate that it's GNA work

for me it's like oh no yeah what am I

doing wrong how can I fix this it's like

no no no no you don't need all the

people you need the tiny fraction who

care more than everyone else M and a

certain like a certain amount of

polarization is a very very good thing

because it means that the thing that

you're doing is distinctive enough like

the people who care really care they

really love it they're going to buy it

consistently buy it often the people who

don't care might be completely apathetic

to the category you might not ever spend

a million dollars in 10 years you might

not ever be able to get them to care and

so your job is at a market marketer is

to attract the attention of all of the

hyper responders the people who care a

lot care often and like are really into

it and then all of the people who don't

care and are never going to Care they

can go away and that's fine if I wanted

to be an exceptional

marketeer if I wanted to you know I've

got a product and idea and I want to

make sure that it penetrates a very

noisy online Market but even an IRL

Market what would you um what kind of

skills and principles or first

principles should I really be thinking

about to become a great marketeer

because you know we can get carried away

with the fish and what I mean by the

fish is tactics and strategies but what

is the fishing rod what is the the

mindset the principles that are going to

make me a great marketeer for the next

30 40 years regardless of change yes

fundamentals of human attention that

comes down to psychology so so the vast

majority of people moving through their

lives are busy stressed overwhelmed

already have too too much information

bombarding them from all uh all points

at all times and so figuring

out I think this is a story you tell in

your book actually so so Jenny on the

side of the road who who's who's broken

down having the worst day of her entire

life um it's a little bit hyperbole but

it's it's true like most of us are just

wildly oversubscribed in in terms of

attention and time and energy and so

figuring out the little bits

of being able to to highlight the thing that's most important most interesting

that's most important most interesting most valuable upfront quickly in a way

most valuable upfront quickly in a way that cuts through that is the primary

that cuts through that is the primary skill of

skill of marketing

marketing and a lot of the the other particulars

and a lot of the the other particulars the tactics the strategies are very

the tactics the strategies are very dependent on what Market are you

dependent on what Market are you operating in what scale are you

operating in what scale are you operating at like all of that stuff but

operating at like all of that stuff but fundamentally understanding that people

fundamentally understanding that people are busy and starved for time and

are busy and starved for time and attention how can you grab it and what

attention how can you grab it and what can you do to keep it um that's the

can you do to keep it um that's the primary skill of marketing by far so if

primary skill of marketing by far so if I'm if I'm running that if I'm thinking

I'm if I'm running that if I'm thinking about starting my candle business what

about starting my candle business what is step three in your sort of I think

is step three in your sort of I think you said five-step framework of what

you said five-step framework of what really matters sure yeah this is sales

really matters sure yeah this is sales okay sales and so for a candle business

okay sales and so for a candle business this might look like direct sales online

this might look like direct sales online it could also look like intermediate

it could also look like intermediate intermediatory sales like through a

intermediatory sales like through a distributor and

distributor and so it's funny like value creation

so it's funny like value creation marketing value delivery and finance all

marketing value delivery and finance all of those are the processes where uh

of those are the processes where uh where money is Flowing out of the

where money is Flowing out of the business you're spending money to do all

business you're spending money to do all of this analysis uh sales is the part

of this analysis uh sales is the part where money comes in which makes it

where money comes in which makes it makes it particularly important and so

makes it particularly important and so some of the early decisions around sales

some of the early decisions around sales are um how are you going to ask for the

are um how are you going to ask for the sale what does the sales process look

sale what does the sales process look like and are you dealing directly with

like and are you dealing directly with the customer that who is purchasing from

the customer that who is purchasing from you or are you dealing with some sort

you or are you dealing with some sort sort of independent third party or

sort of independent third party or sometimes multiple third parties in the

sometimes multiple third parties in the process like a retail or distributor

process like a retail or distributor exactly okay and in order to be

exactly okay and in order to be exceptional at selling my

exceptional at selling my candles is there anything that I should

candles is there anything that I should bear in mind maybe when I'm making the

bear in mind maybe when I'm making the candles how I'm packaging the candles

candles how I'm packaging the candles the way that I'm you know going to those

the way that I'm you know going to those retailers or yeah so I think

retailers or yeah so I think um there's a part

um there's a part of because sales is kind of in the

of because sales is kind of in the middle the process there's a part of

middle the process there's a part of sales that intersects with marketing in

sales that intersects with marketing in the sense of you're trying to make this

the sense of you're trying to make this maximally appealing to get someone to

maximally appealing to get someone to give you money for it and so the

give you money for it and so the customer understanding how how can how

customer understanding how how can how can we be persuasive in getting someone

can we be persuasive in getting someone to say yes this is for me here's my

to say yes this is for me here's my money I would like one please there's

money I would like one please there's also a part of sales which is somewhat

also a part of sales which is somewhat neglected which intersects with the

neglected which intersects with the value delivery part of the process which

value delivery part of the process which is the point a sale is not just to get a

is the point a sale is not just to get a customer in an ideal way it's to get a

customer in an ideal way it's to get a happy satisfied customer someone who not

happy satisfied customer someone who not only purchased the thing that you bought

only purchased the thing that you bought but is happy with the thing that they

but is happy with the thing that they bought and is thrilled that they did

bought and is thrilled that they did business with you and is planning on

business with you and is planning on doing business with you again why is

doing business with you again why is that so important well it's relatively

that so important well it's relatively straightforward to make a sale once um

straightforward to make a sale once um usually the first sale is the most

usually the first sale is the most expensive and so generally a repeat C

expensive and so generally a repeat C repeat customers are the best customers

repeat customers are the best customers you will ever have they are already know

you will ever have they are already know you exist they already know your stuff

you exist they already know your stuff is great um you don't have to attract

is great um you don't have to attract their attention again necessarily um and

their attention again necessarily um and depending on what you're selling like

depending on what you're selling like those repeat customers can the lifetime

those repeat customers can the lifetime value of a repeat customer can be

value of a repeat customer can be extraordinary and so if you've already

extraordinary and so if you've already done the work to get a customer once

done the work to get a customer once then you should want to keep them happy

then you should want to keep them happy and keep them around for as long as

and keep them around for as long as humanly possible what's lifetime value

humanly possible what's lifetime value oh lifetime value this is this is a fun

oh lifetime value this is this is a fun one um so lifetime value is the sum

one um so lifetime value is the sum total of all sales of a customer with a

total of all sales of a customer with a business and so imagine um Jack I sell

business and so imagine um Jack I sell jack a candle

jack a candle yes

yes now Jack how many candles do you uh do

now Jack how many candles do you uh do you burn a

you burn a year seven seven okay so take the The

year seven seven okay so take the The Profit that you make per candle so I'm

Profit that you make per candle so I'm selling the candles at $10 and I make $1

selling the candles at $10 and I make $1 profit on them yep times s

profit on them yep times s okay so the lifetime value well let's

okay so the lifetime value well let's say we're just over the course of a year

say we're just over the course of a year $7 profit for let's take someone like

$7 profit for let's take someone like Jill who burns the candle every week wow

Jill who burns the candle every week wow and not just this year she Burns a

and not just this year she Burns a candle every week years and years and

candle every week years and years and years running so for Jill 52 time 7 is

years running so for Jill 52 time 7 is $364 and so she's a much more valuable

$364 and so she's a much more valuable customer than Jack is by a lot and so if

customer than Jack is by a lot and so if you had to to to make a choice between

you had to to to make a choice between Jack and Jill like you should choose

Jack and Jill like you should choose Jill every single time customer service

Jill every single time customer service matters right it does yeah because

matters right it does yeah because people many companies see it as like an

people many companies see it as like an annoyance like I've sold you the [ __ ]

annoyance like I've sold you the [ __ ] thing why you email me stop bothering me

thing why you email me stop bothering me and they treat you like you're a

and they treat you like you're a nuisance yeah yeah and that's a shame um

nuisance yeah yeah and that's a shame um because really like those happy repeat

because really like those happy repeat customers

customers are not just like your high lifetime

are not just like your high lifetime value customers the customers that will

value customers the customers that will stick with you keep spending money with

stick with you keep spending money with you they're also a primary source of

you they're also a primary source of marketing like Word of Mouth marketing

marketing like Word of Mouth marketing is all happy customers telling other

is all happy customers telling other people who might benefit from your

people who might benefit from your product that hey here's this wonderful

product that hey here's this wonderful thing you should probably check it out

thing you should probably check it out and so yeah like things like post Sal

and so yeah like things like post Sal support um sometimes customer

support um sometimes customer reactivation so like to your point

reactivation so like to your point earlier it's a very straightforward

earlier it's a very straightforward marketing technique called

marketing technique called reactivation if you can contact Jack and

reactivation if you can contact Jack and say Hey you bought candles from us last

say Hey you bought candles from us last year would you like to buy candles from

year would you like to buy candles from us this year and get him to to pick up

us this year and get him to to pick up just a couple more more candles like the

just a couple more more candles like the cost of that promotion is potentially

cost of that promotion is potentially very small you already know he exists

very small you already know he exists you already know that he's purchased um

you already know that he's purchased um can you just get him to do that again um

can you just get him to do that again um those are some of the most effective

those are some of the most effective Marketing sales campaigns that you can

Marketing sales campaigns that you can possibly run but it also requires that

possibly run but it also requires that they had a good experience with whatever

they had a good experience with whatever it is that you're offering in the first

it is that you're offering in the first place is there like a sales equation of

place is there like a sales equation of sorts is there like a you know when I'm

sorts is there like a you know when I'm thinking about how to close a deal how

thinking about how to close a deal how to sell that candle is there a skill set

to sell that candle is there a skill set or a framework or a model that I should

or a framework or a model that I should be thinking through when I'm trying to

be thinking through when I'm trying to sell it to Jack or Jill um there are

sell it to Jack or Jill um there are many many Frameworks I think the um the

many many Frameworks I think the um the biggest most most popular one uh which a

biggest most most popular one uh which a lot of people get stuck on as the whole

lot of people get stuck on as the whole features versus benefits

features versus benefits conversation and so

conversation and so um in the context of candles Fe a

um in the context of candles Fe a features conversation would be is this

features conversation would be is this candle is made from 100% soy wax people

candle is made from 100% soy wax people don't necessarily care it's not relevant

don't necessarily care it's not relevant to the reason that people purchase

to the reason that people purchase candles benefits are the things that

candles benefits are the things that people that get to those core human

people that get to those core human drives the things that that motivate the

drives the things that that motivate the purchase to begin with

purchase to begin with and

and so one very useful way of thinking about

so one very useful way of thinking about this is whenever you're doing any sort

this is whenever you're doing any sort of marketing or sales you're focusing on

of marketing or sales you're focusing on the benefits the things that you're

the benefits the things that you're delivering to people the things that are

delivering to people the things that are enticing and if you talk about features

enticing and if you talk about features at all you use them as reasons to

at all you use them as reasons to believe that you're going to be able to

believe that you're going to be able to deliver the benefits that are promised

deliver the benefits that are promised and so um if for example you're you're

and so um if for example you're you're uh taking an an ecologically friendly

uh taking an an ecologically friendly approach to your your candle business um

approach to your your candle business um the fact that 100% soy is very clean

the fact that 100% soy is very clean burning and environmentally friendly

burning and environmentally friendly might be a reason to believe that this

might be a reason to believe that this benefit is true but it's not the primary

benefit is true but it's not the primary reason that people are going to purchase

reason that people are going to purchase interesting and a lot of people I guess

interesting and a lot of people I guess are making the mistake of focusing on

are making the mistake of focusing on the features of their product yeah this

the features of their product yeah this is the the difference

is the the difference between um an iPod has one gigabyte High

between um an iPod has one gigabyte High Drive hard drive and a thousand songs in

Drive hard drive and a thousand songs in your pocket a thousand songs in your

your pocket a thousand songs in your pocket is a benefit the size of the hard

pocket is a benefit the size of the hard drive is the feature that enables that

drive is the feature that enables that and why why is it more powerful and

and why why is it more powerful and compelling to the customer to focus on

compelling to the customer to focus on the benefit versus the feature is there

the benefit versus the feature is there something in our neurology is that a

something in our neurology is that a word neurology it is a word is that the

word neurology it is a word is that the right context in our brain yeah well I

right context in our brain yeah well I think this this gets into um some Bier

think this this gets into um some Bier psychology things which is people

psychology things which is people generally before making a purchase

generally before making a purchase decision imagine what their life is

decision imagine what their life is going to look like if they go down this

going to look like if they go down this particular route if I buy this thing if

particular route if I buy this thing if I uh sign up for this service if I

I uh sign up for this service if I become a member at this club or gym or

become a member at this club or gym or or or whatever um there's there's a a

or or whatever um there's there's a a mental simulation process that very

mental simulation process that very often happens of like may maybe buying a

often happens of like may maybe buying a new car is a good tangible example of

new car is a good tangible example of this like before you buy the car you did

this like before you buy the car you did the test drive and you imagine like what

the test drive and you imagine like what my what would my life be like if I was

my what would my life be like if I was driving this every day if I pull this

driving this every day if I pull this into into my in my driveway where are

into into my in my driveway where are the neighbors

the neighbors gonna are they gonna look at me gonna

gonna are they gonna look at me gonna think I'm cool you know like there's

think I'm cool you know like there's there's this

there's this like with a little bit of information

like with a little bit of information our brains can kind of extrapolate or

our brains can kind of extrapolate or start to predict what is likely to

start to predict what is likely to happen out into the future to a certain

happen out into the future to a certain extent and this is you know to to to

extent and this is you know to to to some of the things you talk about in

some of the things you talk about in your book about storytelling this is why

your book about storytelling this is why stories work for marketing and sales it

stories work for marketing and sales it helps people engage that part of their

helps people engage that part of their brain that can that can simulate a

brain that can that can simulate a potential future that looks and feels

potential future that looks and feels really great and start to anticipate it

really great and start to anticipate it get excited about it

get excited about it and like when you're selling a car on

and like when you're selling a car on the sales side of the the

the sales side of the the Spectrum rule number one is get the

Spectrum rule number one is get the potential customer in the driver seat of

potential customer in the driver seat of that car as quickly as possible nothing

that car as quickly as possible nothing else matters

else matters you want them to engage in the process

you want them to engage in the process of driving and imagining as quickly as

of driving and imagining as quickly as possible because that that's when they

possible because that that's when they start to convince themselves that this

start to convince themselves that this is something that they might want to

is something that they might want to have in their life so anything that you

have in their life so anything that you can do to engage those kind of

can do to engage those kind of simulation prediction sort of of

simulation prediction sort of of processes the better if you were to try

processes the better if you were to try and pin down the very core parts of what

and pin down the very core parts of what makes a company

makes a company successful what are what is what are the

successful what are what is what are the core components of that what are the

core components of that what are the fundamental games at Play in business in

fundamental games at Play in business in your view yeah so there I think there

your view yeah so there I think there are a bunch of different ways to answer

are a bunch of different ways to answer that um we've talked a lot about the

that um we've talked a lot about the five parts of every business those are

five parts of every business those are the fundamentals of what the employees

the fundamentals of what the employees are actually doing MH um in general you

are actually doing MH um in general you want to hire people who

want to hire people who are curious

are curious engaged excellent

engaged excellent communicators and are signing up for

communicators and are signing up for whatever whatever it is the the the

whatever whatever it is the the the long-term objective Mission Vision of of

long-term objective Mission Vision of of the company here's what we're doing

the company here's what we're doing here's why it matters here's exactly who

here's why it matters here's exactly who we're serving here's why that matters

we're serving here's why that matters here's how we're going to go about doing

here's how we're going to go about doing that and from there everything that

that and from there everything that happens within the

happens within the company each of the employees are going

company each of the employees are going to be focused on one or more of these

to be focused on one or more of these five essential parts of the business in

five essential parts of the business in an ideal World they understand all five

an ideal World they understand all five and how they interrelate to each other

and how they interrelate to each other and

and how something that is done in one like

how something that is done in one like say the marketing end of side end of

say the marketing end of side end of things might really make a huge

things might really make a huge difference on the value delivery or

difference on the value delivery or customer service end of

customer service end of things if you have all of those pieces

things if you have all of those pieces in place then the question becomes how

in place then the question becomes how large does this business need to be in

large does this business need to be in order to serve its customers at to the

order to serve its customers at to the maximum possible extent in a long

maximum possible extent in a long long-term sustainable

long-term sustainable way and then what level of internal

way and then what level of internal organization makes the most sense so

organization makes the most sense so people can spend most of their time

people can spend most of their time doing work related to the five parts of

doing work related to the five parts of of every business and as little time as

of every business and as little time as possible managing the rest and so this

possible managing the rest and so this is kind of the the flip side of of some

is kind of the the flip side of of some of the common failure cases of

of the common failure cases of bureaucracy paperwork busy work all of

bureaucracy paperwork busy work all of these

these things what level of management do you

things what level of management do you need

need um how can you minimize that how can you

um how can you minimize that how can you make sure

make sure that um to me good management is is

that um to me good management is is helping remove barriers to people who

helping remove barriers to people who are doing skilled work how can you

are doing skilled work how can you remove as many things from their plate

remove as many things from their plate as possible so they can focus on the

as possible so they can focus on the parts of the business that are are

parts of the business that are are generating the most

generating the most value and

value and so there's a lot um I think this was the

so there's a lot um I think this was the founder of Southwest Airlines herp

founder of Southwest Airlines herp Keller it's like hire for attitude train

Keller it's like hire for attitude train for

for skill I think there's a lot to be said

skill I think there's a lot to be said for that because because I'm thinking a

for that because because I'm thinking a lot about that person who is you know

lot about that person who is you know again they're starting their candle

again they're starting their candle business and they're trying to figure

business and they're trying to figure out what this game of business

out what this game of business fundamentally comes down to in 10 years

fundamentally comes down to in 10 years from now is it how smart I am is it how

from now is it how smart I am is it how good I am at assembling a group of smart

good I am at assembling a group of smart people is it culture is it the vision I

people is it culture is it the vision I set is it the product I build is it all

set is it the product I build is it all of these things but if we just start

of these things but if we just start with hiring then because this is in my

with hiring then because this is in my experience where people often succeed

experience where people often succeed and fail and often where a lot of their

and fail and often where a lot of their biases show up that they don't even know

biases show up that they don't even know about sure um how important is

about sure um how important is hiring to building a great business and

hiring to building a great business and becoming a successful

becoming a successful entrepreneur complicated answer to that

entrepreneur complicated answer to that okay so

okay so it can be more or less important

it can be more or less important depending on exactly what you're

depending on exactly what you're offering I'm offering candles you're

offering I'm offering candles you're offering candles yeah so so to me

offering candles yeah so so to me like making some assumptions if you're

like making some assumptions if you're handling if you're selling candles

handling if you're selling candles Direct on the internet with a small

Direct on the internet with a small distribution center and mostly online

distribution center and mostly online advertising your team is probably going

advertising your team is probably going to be relatively small and that can be a

to be relatively small and that can be a really good thing if you're selling

really good thing if you're selling candles in distribution and tooling up a

candles in distribution and tooling up a manufacturing line and uh and going off

manufacturing line and uh and going off and and calling on all these large

and and calling on all these large customers and potentially producing Mass

customers and potentially producing Mass Market candles it's a very different

Market candles it's a very different business operation and so there's a lot

business operation and so there's a lot of

of like understanding the necessities of

like understanding the necessities of the game that you're playing and then

the game that you're playing and then matching your hiring exactly to what

matching your hiring exactly to what those needs are but not more I think

those needs are but not more I think about um when I was thinking about this

about um when I was thinking about this candle business that I'm hypothetically

candle business that I'm hypothetically going to launch one of the things that

going to launch one of the things that might stop me from launching a candle

might stop me from launching a candle business as it does for many people is

business as it does for many people is that there are already lots of [ __ ]

that there are already lots of [ __ ] candles and in every industry you know

candles and in every industry you know when I hear entrepreneurs or I hear sof

when I hear entrepreneurs or I hear sof preneurs which is someone who's got an

preneurs which is someone who's got an idea on the sofa one of the reasons

idea on the sofa one of the reasons they'll give as to why they've not

they'll give as to why they've not started the business is because they've

started the business is because they've just they've done some market research

just they've done some market research and they've discovered there is already

and they've discovered there is already someone solving that problem uhhuh and

someone solving that problem uhhuh and then they go no there's no there's no

then they go no there's no there's no money to be made there what role does

money to be made there what role does competition play in this whole pitch

competition play in this whole pitch is competition a bad thing a good thing

is competition a bad thing a good thing a signal that I shouldn't yeah there's

a signal that I shouldn't yeah there's something really fun here um I talk

something really fun here um I talk about it in the book I call the iron law

about it in the book I call the iron law of the

of the market which is um a way of saying that

market which is um a way of saying that markets that don't exist don't care how

markets that don't exist don't care how smart you are it was a mark andreon

smart you are it was a mark andreon quote from way back in his Netscape

quote from way back in his Netscape days and it's the whole idea like it's

days and it's the whole idea like it's actually a really good thing that there

actually a really good thing that there are a bunch of people selling candles in

are a bunch of people selling candles in the market because that means that

the market because that means that there's a large Market of people who are

there's a large Market of people who are willing and able to buy candles it

willing and able to buy candles it validates the the the need it validates

validates the the the need it validates the existence of the market in the first

the existence of the market in the first place the markets you need to be really

place the markets you need to be really careful about are the brand new to the

careful about are the brand new to the nobody has ever seen anything like this

nobody has ever seen anything like this on the face of the Earth because not

on the face of the Earth because not only do you need to educate and convince

only do you need to educate and convince people you have no idea whether people

people you have no idea whether people have will purchase this thing that

have will purchase this thing that you've made this is a story a story that

you've made this is a story a story that I tell in the book um Dean Cayman like

I tell in the book um Dean Cayman like prolific inventor this was the

prolific inventor this was the development of the

development of the segue the like oh yeah balancing scooter

segue the like oh yeah balancing scooter thing yeah I remember I think this was a

thing yeah I remember I think this was a Time magazine article something like

Time magazine article something like that was like this is the this is the

that was like this is the this is the mystery invention we're not going to

mystery invention we're not going to talk about it yet the mystery invention

talk about it yet the mystery invention that is going to change the way that

that is going to change the way that cities are planned

cities are planned the hype for it was absolutely extreme

the hype for it was absolutely extreme and when it came out it turned out that

and when it came out it turned out that people didn't want to buy a $110,000

people didn't want to buy a $110,000 alternative to walking or riding a bike

alternative to walking or riding a bike and so it's like those like nobody's

and so it's like those like nobody's ever done this before can actually be in

ever done this before can actually be in in a weird way a bad

in a weird way a bad sign um you want something that like the

sign um you want something that like the market exists the need is there people

market exists the need is there people are excited about it people are looking

are excited about it people are looking for Solutions and then like liquid death

for Solutions and then like liquid death if you can come in and do it in a

if you can come in and do it in a fundamentally different way that grabs a

fundamentally different way that grabs a lot of attention it's a really really

lot of attention it's a really really great promising

great promising sign but if it's completely brand new

sign but if it's completely brand new that's that's more of a a warning sign

that's that's more of a a warning sign than than many of the sofa preneurs uh

than than many of the sofa preneurs uh would would chalk it up to be so how

would would chalk it up to be so how should we treat competitors then if I've

should we treat competitors then if I've got a competitor should I should I

got a competitor should I should I attack them should I block them what

attack them should I block them what should I do first learn from them

should I do first learn from them buy from them become their customer

buy from them become their customer learn as much as you can about what they

learn as much as you can about what they do how they do it um customers can be a

do how they do it um customers can be a wonderful source of market research

wonderful source of market research around what's what's happening in the

around what's what's happening in the category what's important what's not

category what's important what's not what was your experience competitors

what was your experience competitors yeah totally if you if you're starting a

yeah totally if you if you're starting a c Candle Company go out and buy all the

c Candle Company go out and buy all the candles burn them all smell them all

candles burn them all smell them all burn them all line your like buy a

burn them all line your like buy a bookshelf and fill it with candles why

bookshelf and fill it with candles why um because you can learn so much about

um because you can learn so much about how people do things um look at their

how people do things um look at their labeling deconstruct their packaging

labeling deconstruct their packaging look at their price points where are

look at their price points where are they selling how are they doing their

they selling how are they doing their online advertising um and the wonderful

online advertising um and the wonderful thing is aside from your time and maybe

thing is aside from your time and maybe a little bit of budget all that market

a little bit of budget all that market research is free you just get to go out

research is free you just get to go out and and learn from what people are doing

and and learn from what people are doing and then combine that with your own

and then combine that with your own research going out and talking to

research going out and talking to customers on your own having your own

customers on your own having your own experiences your own ideas and that's

experiences your own ideas and that's where you get your unique take your

where you get your unique take your taste your Twist on on that particular

taste your Twist on on that particular way of of doing things what else do I

way of of doing things what else do I need to be thinking about so I've done

need to be thinking about so I've done my market research on the candle

my market research on the candle business we've got the marketing done

business we've got the marketing done I'm I understand the the sort of sales

I'm I understand the the sort of sales framework that I should be thinking

framework that I should be thinking through I've bought every candle in the

through I've bought every candle in the market now MH is there anything else

market now MH is there anything else that is really important to be thinking

that is really important to be thinking about as I go forward and launch this

about as I go forward and launch this company oh yeah we haven't talked about

company oh yeah we haven't talked about dollars and cents at all yet dollars and

dollars and cents at all yet dollars and cents yeah Finance okay so you know as

cents yeah Finance okay so you know as you're doing all of so development takes

you're doing all of so development takes money making product uh requires money

money making product uh requires money um customer service requires money

um customer service requires money manufactur like all of the you're

manufactur like all of the you're spending a bunch of money making this

spending a bunch of money making this product you have at this point since

product you have at this point since this is a startup you have a price that

this is a startup you have a price that you think is supportable hopefully

you think is supportable hopefully you're collecting pre-orders you're

you're collecting pre-orders you're getting some Market information about

getting some Market information about like how much you potentially be able to

like how much you potentially be able to make here financial analysis is the part

make here financial analysis is the part where you're taking a look at all of

where you're taking a look at all of these decisions and tradeoffs that that

these decisions and tradeoffs that that you've been

you've been making where am I spending how

making where am I spending how much if I have to make a choice between

much if I have to make a choice between a or b which one am I am I going to make

a or b which one am I am I going to make and then the finan finance is basically

and then the finan finance is basically just a systematic way of making

just a systematic way of making decisions around monetary

decisions around monetary considerations um in the case of a

considerations um in the case of a manufacturing business you might have

manufacturing business you might have raised some some early Capital friends

raised some some early Capital friends family loans investors credit cards

family loans investors credit cards whatever how much do you have at your

whatever how much do you have at your disposal how much runway do you have if

disposal how much runway do you have if you've hired people how many months do

you've hired people how many months do you have left before you really need to

you have left before you really need to be bringing in more than than your

be bringing in more than than your outflows or else you're going to be in

outflows or else you're going to be in trouble very quickly I've got a

trouble very quickly I've got a corporate job and I've got $2,000 of

corporate job and I've got $2,000 of savings yeah okay so so relatively small

savings yeah okay so so relatively small so then like the financial decision

so then like the financial decision making might be how many candles if I

making might be how many candles if I make a small

make a small batch like maybe of that $2,000 how much

batch like maybe of that $2,000 how much am I going to allocate to making the

am I going to allocate to making the actual physical product packaging

actual physical product packaging shipping distribution how much am I

shipping distribution how much am I going to set aside for marketing and

going to set aside for marketing and sales sorts of thing that's an

sales sorts of thing that's an allocation decision and so your early

allocation decision and so your early decision making is how much do I have at

decision making is how much do I have at my disposal what are the the critical

my disposal what are the the critical things that need to be met I have to

things that need to be met I have to have product to sell I have to get

have product to sell I have to get people's attention somehow I have to be

people's attention somehow I have to be able to deliver this when people buy it

able to deliver this when people buy it and then you start making lots of

and then you start making lots of decisions lots of trade-offs about we're

decisions lots of trade-offs about we're going to put this here this here this

going to put this here this here this here this here what if you're bad at

here this here what if you're bad at math because a lot of people I think

math because a lot of people I think they're put off business because they

they're put off business because they hear about gross margin and net profit

hear about gross margin and net profit and revenue and they go oh God I was bad

and revenue and they go oh God I was bad at math in school so I'm never going to

at math in school so I'm never going to be good at business and or I meet a lot

be good at business and or I meet a lot of Entre especially in the den but just

of Entre especially in the den but just in life generally who basically avoid

in life generally who basically avoid the finances of their own business yeah

the finances of their own business yeah because it's just not their strong area

because it's just not their strong area so I think they think they can just

so I think they think they can just maybe they're right because I did meet

maybe they're right because I did meet Richard Branson and he told me that you

Richard Branson and he told me that you know he's not very astute with finances

know he's not very astute with finances and he said to me you just basically

and he said to me you just basically need to know three numbers in business

need to know three numbers in business um and he also said to me that he was

um and he also said to me that he was sort of 50 odd years old when he was in

sort of 50 odd years old when he was in a meeting where his directors were

a meeting where his directors were talking about net profit and he had had

talking about net profit and he had had no idea what they were talking about so

no idea what they were talking about so one of them pulled him out of the room

one of them pulled him out of the room and drew a picture of a ocean and put a

and drew a picture of a ocean and put a net in it and said the fish is in the

net in it and said the fish is in the net your net profit and at the time he

net your net profit and at the time he was running one of the biggest groups in

was running one of the biggest groups in Europe you just go so what how important

Europe you just go so what how important is this thing called finance and money

is this thing called finance and money and accounting yeah I mean most of it is

and accounting yeah I mean most of it is common sense in simple arithmetic really

common sense in simple arithmetic really like we're talking addition subtraction

like we're talking addition subtraction multiplication division um some of the

multiplication division um some of the the definitions when you really get down

the definitions when you really get down to it are relatively straightforward

to it are relatively straightforward um so how much you going to sell it for

um so how much you going to sell it for minus how much does it cost to make how

minus how much does it cost to make how much does it cost to Market how much

much does it cost to Market how much does it cost to deliver is your profit

does it cost to deliver is your profit um and then you know how much on the

um and then you know how much on the things that you have to spend um every

things that you have to spend um every month so in the case of an online

month so in the case of an online business uh your website your shopping

business uh your website your shopping cart credit card processing all the way

cart credit card processing all the way up to if if you have a physical business

up to if if you have a physical business how much are you spending on salaried

how much are you spending on salaried employees office space electricity

employees office space electricity utilities um there's some very

utilities um there's some very straightforward uh Concepts like

straightforward uh Concepts like amortization like can you take something

amortization like can you take something that would be a a larger pool of money

that would be a a larger pool of money how much does that cost you per month as

how much does that cost you per month as an equivalent can you build that into

an equivalent can you build that into your budget how do I learn this stuff if

your budget how do I learn this stuff if I didn't go to school that's why I wrote

I didn't go to school that's why I wrote the first LBA okay so yeah can you will

the first LBA okay so yeah can you will you tell me about all of this stuff if I

you tell me about all of this stuff if I get this book yes it so the the whole

get this book yes it so the the whole idea aidea behind personal MBA was to

idea aidea behind personal MBA was to take all of these Concepts like

take all of these Concepts like amortization like nonprofit all of this

amortization like nonprofit all of this and explain it in the clearest most

and explain it in the clearest most direct most straightforward plain

direct most straightforward plain language that I possibly could and is it

language that I possibly could and is it easy it's very straightforward yeah is

easy it's very straightforward yeah is there a a most important number or or a

there a a most important number or or a most important set of numbers in

most important set of numbers in business when it comes to running my

business when it comes to running my candle business if I was to really stay

candle business if I was to really stay focused on a particular number or metric

focused on a particular number or metric is there one in particular yeah I think

is there one in particular yeah I think so early on the things that you're going

so early on the things that you're going to want to pay very close attention to

to want to pay very close attention to like early stage entrepreneurship is all

like early stage entrepreneurship is all about is this Su are we to the point of

about is this Su are we to the point of keeping this business sustainable can we

keeping this business sustainable can we keep the lights on can we keep going and

keep the lights on can we keep going and is it worth it to me or not and

is it worth it to me or not and so your monthly fix

so your monthly fix overhead like how much am I spending

overhead like how much am I spending every month just to keep the lights on

every month just to keep the lights on everything cleaning yep everything my my

everything cleaning yep everything my my Gmail account everything yep okay yep so

Gmail account everything yep okay yep so what is what are my monthly

what is what are my monthly outflows what are my monthly sales

outflows what are my monthly sales numbers and it's monthly because usually

numbers and it's monthly because usually our modern expenses happen monthly rent

our modern expenses happen monthly rent payments happen monthly all that how

payments happen monthly all that how much is coming in product service offer

much is coming in product service offer sales how much does it cost to deliver

sales how much does it cost to deliver that in

that in total what is my monthly overhead

total what is my monthly overhead everything required to keep the lights

everything required to keep the lights on

on and at the end of that is net profit

and at the end of that is net profit which is how much do I get to

which is how much do I get to keep and is that enough so for example

keep and is that enough so for example if you're if you're working 80 hours a

if you're if you're working 80 hours a week keeping this candle business open

week keeping this candle business open and you have $5 to your name at the end

and you have $5 to your name at the end of that month you might be able to

of that month you might be able to sustain that for a little bit but at a

sustain that for a little bit but at a certain point there are going to be some

certain point there are going to be some very difficult decisions

very difficult decisions around technically we're making money

around technically we're making money but it's just not it's not enough to

but it's just not it's not enough to make this sustainable and so some of

make this sustainable and so some of that early number like as as an early

that early number like as as an early stage entrepreneur is like what is that

stage entrepreneur is like what is that for you like based on your life based on

for you like based on your life based on your lifestyle what you hope and dream

your lifestyle what you hope and dream for

for yourself what's the number that makes a

yourself what's the number that makes a venturous long-term sustainable like I

venturous long-term sustainable like I can keep doing this it makes sense for

can keep doing this it makes sense for right now to keep

right now to keep going you focus on getting to that

going you focus on getting to that number first and then from there you

number first and then from there you have a lot of different

have a lot of different options one of the mental models that I

options one of the mental models that I think we share is around this idea of

think we share is around this idea of experimentation yes absolutely and it's

experimentation yes absolutely and it's one of my favorite subjects because it's

one of my favorite subjects because it's been a real Revelation for me over the

been a real Revelation for me over the last couple of years in business um

last couple of years in business um which is really this idea that

which is really this idea that increasing my exp rate of

increasing my exp rate of experimentation increases my rate of

experimentation increases my rate of success and I think um you know the

success and I think um you know the podcast is an example of that for me

podcast is an example of that for me where we've really tried to experiment

where we've really tried to experiment as much as we can and that's led us to

as much as we can and that's led us to um the growth of the podcast but when I

um the growth of the podcast but when I look across the greatest entrepreneurs

look across the greatest entrepreneurs in the world they all seem to eventually

in the world they all seem to eventually arrive at this conclusion that

arrive at this conclusion that experimentation really is the path to

experimentation really is the path to finding the right answers in a world

finding the right answers in a world where the right answer is changing so

where the right answer is changing so much yep what is what is for for an

much yep what is what is for for an entrepreneur that's at the very

entrepreneur that's at the very beginning for someone that's at the very

beginning for someone that's at the very beginning or someone that's in the

beginning or someone that's in the corporate world what is it about

corporate world what is it about experimentation that you think is so

experimentation that you think is so important to understand yeah I think

important to understand yeah I think experimentation removes the

experimentation removes the pressure

pressure [Music]

[Music] to know or feel like you know what you

to know or feel like you know what you should be doing every moment of every

should be doing every moment of every day um I think there's there's a sense

day um I think there's there's a sense of like we kind of

of like we kind of conflate certainty or over certainty

conflate certainty or over certainty with competence in a way that's not

with competence in a way that's not necessarily functional whereas we're all

necessarily functional whereas we're all very imperfect oracles like we have

very imperfect oracles like we have anticipations based on our knowledge our

anticipations based on our knowledge our experiences um the information that

experiences um the information that we're collecting about the world around

we're collecting about the world around us and we're all using that all the time

us and we're all using that all the time to try to predict what's going to happen

to try to predict what's going to happen next just how our brains work it's what

next just how our brains work it's what our brains are

our brains are for

for and I think there's a sense of we can do

and I think there's a sense of we can do that to a certain extent to eliminate

that to a certain extent to eliminate some of the more obvious errors that we

some of the more obvious errors that we might make

might make but when it the when it comes down to

but when it the when it comes down to making a decision about something we've

making a decision about something we've never done before the honest answer to

never done before the honest answer to will this work

will this work is I don't know let's find

is I don't know let's find out and so there's a certain amount of

out and so there's a certain amount of if that's the case if we can't be 100%

if that's the case if we can't be 100% certain what's going to happen if we try

certain what's going to happen if we try plan a or plan b or plan

plan a or plan b or plan C then there are a couple of ways of

C then there are a couple of ways of approaching that one is is um by working

approaching that one is is um by working through scenarios of like let's just

through scenarios of like let's just imagine what would it look like if we

imagine what would it look like if we chose plan a let's play that out a

chose plan a let's play that out a little bit let's try to make

little bit let's try to make anticipations about what what might work

anticipations about what what might work or what might not um and let's compare

or what might not um and let's compare our different Alternatives and and see

our different Alternatives and and see what what looks the best feels the best

what what looks the best feels the best based on our anticipations right

based on our anticipations right now that's valuable but it can only go

now that's valuable but it can only go so far because it relies on all the the

so far because it relies on all the the knowledge and EXP experience that we've

knowledge and EXP experience that we've collected to date it doesn't account for

collected to date it doesn't account for the knowledge and experience that we're

the knowledge and experience that we're going to gain through the process of

going to gain through the process of making a choice and learning from the

making a choice and learning from the choice and so one of my very favorite

choice and so one of my very favorite mental models this comes from computer

mental models this comes from computer science and and

science and and decisionmaking is called the explore

decisionmaking is called the explore exploit

exploit trade-off

trade-off and this might be entertaining it comes

and this might be entertaining it comes from decision research uh actually about

from decision research uh actually about gambling of of all things like imagine

gambling of of all things like imagine um imagine you walk into a casino and

um imagine you walk into a casino and there are a 100 slot machines that you

there are a 100 slot machines that you get to play for

get to play for free each of the machines has a

free each of the machines has a different

different payoff but you don't know which one your

payoff but you don't know which one your job is to find the very best

job is to find the very best one how do you go about figuring that

one how do you go about figuring that out you try them all yeah you try them

out you try them all yeah you try them so you start collecting information

so you start collecting information right like the thing to do you when you

right like the thing to do you when you walk into the room you have no

walk into the room you have no information and so the first phase of

information and so the first phase of solving this problem is to explore you

solving this problem is to explore you just try a whole bunch of things and you

just try a whole bunch of things and you collect information every time you pull

collect information every time you pull this slot machine does it pay out or not

this slot machine does it pay out or not the longer you do this the more

the longer you do this the more information you collect and after a

information you collect and after a certain period of time you start to get

certain period of time you start to get a feel for patterns of some things seem

a feel for patterns of some things seem to be more Obviously good and other

to be more Obviously good and other things seem to be more obviously bad and

things seem to be more obviously bad and so over time you shift into the second

so over time you shift into the second phase which is called the exploitation

phase which is called the exploitation phase so you take the knowledge and

phase so you take the knowledge and experience that you have and you use it

experience that you have and you use it to do the best performing thing that

to do the best performing thing that you're aware of at the time more often

you're aware of at the time more often so you're playing the higher winning

so you're playing the higher winning slots

slots more the key is though the exploration

more the key is though the exploration phase never stops

phase never stops it just gets smaller over time so if

it just gets smaller over time so if you're going to play this game optimally

you're going to play this game optimally there's always a certain Subs segment of

there's always a certain Subs segment of your time that's dedicated to exploring

your time that's dedicated to exploring to collecting information to trying new

to collecting information to trying new things and I think this kind of General

things and I think this kind of General way of going about the like this is what

way of going about the like this is what early

early career early entrepreneurship looks like

career early entrepreneurship looks like you're trying a whole bunch of very

you're trying a whole bunch of very different things sometimes in in

different things sometimes in in information about what works and what

information about what works and what doesn't so in the context of my candle

doesn't so in the context of my candle business yeah I'm going to I'm going to

business yeah I'm going to I'm going to try a bunch of different candles I'm G

try a bunch of different candles I'm G to I'm going to try I think the key part

to I'm going to try I think the key part is we'll get like try other stuff but

is we'll get like try other stuff but the the part that I often see people

the the part that I often see people Overlook is what you actually said after

Overlook is what you actually said after that which was collect information uhuh

that which was collect information uhuh which is you know people will listen to

which is you know people will listen to this and they'll go C right guys they'll

this and they'll go C right guys they'll come to the corporate office they'll go

come to the corporate office they'll go right we're going to try a bunch of new

right we're going to try a bunch of new stuff but that is just wasted time if

stuff but that is just wasted time if you're not accurately correct collecting

you're not accurately correct collecting the feedback yes because that's the

the feedback yes because that's the power the feedback is the power right

power the feedback is the power right failure is nothing without feedback yeah

failure is nothing without feedback yeah exactly and that's like so trying the

exactly and that's like so trying the new thing and then paying very close

new thing and then paying very close attention to what happens is the

attention to what happens is the valuable part so like in the in the

valuable part so like in the in the context of the candle business like

context of the candle business like maybe you try 10 different scents at the

maybe you try 10 different scents at the very beginning and you do small batches

very beginning and you do small batches of each one and how do I test that in

of each one and how do I test that in the context of a candle business how do

the context of a candle business how do I test which is the best scent yeah so

I test which is the best scent yeah so um you could do all sorts of different

um you could do all sorts of different things like um early on you can get

things like um early on you can get direct feedback so follow up with people

direct feedback so follow up with people ask so this is where the like

ask so this is where the like quantitative and qualitative research

quantitative and qualitative research studies can be very very valuable so

studies can be very very valuable so your first source of information is what

your first source of information is what do people buy what's most appealing

do people buy what's most appealing where does where does that kind of

where does where does that kind of initial spark go you'll probably see a

initial spark go you'll probably see a distribution if you try 10 different

distribution if you try 10 different scents you you'll probably see a couple

scents you you'll probably see a couple very clearly stand out um and then

very clearly stand out um and then contacting customers directly to to

contacting customers directly to to follow up what did you like what did you

follow up what did you like what did you not like um asking quite like we were

not like um asking quite like we were talking earlier about how did it smell

talking earlier about how did it smell when it was lit how did it smell when it

when it was lit how did it smell when it was not lit like all of those things

was not lit like all of those things spending a little bit of of time digging

spending a little bit of of time digging into it in a deliberate systematic way

into it in a deliberate systematic way is how you get that information could I

is how you get that information could I do this before I even start selling

do this before I even start selling these candles I could I get 10 flavors

these candles I could I get 10 flavors um put blank labels on all of them and

um put blank labels on all of them and also try and create a situation where

also try and create a situation where you can't see it because again I'm

you can't see it because again I'm trying to limit the variable so I don't

trying to limit the variable so I don't want you to make your a decision based

want you to make your a decision based on color put you in a pitch black room

on color put you in a pitch black room this is actually what a lot of companies

this is actually what a lot of companies do companies I've invested in called hu

do companies I've invested in called hu does this they have these pitch black

does this they have these pitch black rooms at their HQ which they invite

rooms at their HQ which they invite people into and these are like sensory

people into and these are like sensory deprivation rooms I guess because you

deprivation rooms I guess because you there's no light there's no nothing you

there's no light there's no nothing you can't see anything and in the context of

can't see anything and in the context of candles get 10 strangers off the street

candles get 10 strangers off the street to smell them all maybe 100 yep and just

to smell them all maybe 100 yep and just to leave some scores yeah and then get

to leave some scores yeah and then get them to smell them when they're lit and

them to smell them when they're lit and take that data as well you can

take that data as well you can absolutely do that that's crazy it seems

absolutely do that that's crazy it seems so obvious but people don't do this

so obvious but people don't do this stuff yeah and it like it doesn't take

stuff yeah and it like it doesn't take that much more work you're actually

that much more work you're actually limiting your risk because you're not

limiting your risk because you're not committing to you know one big batch of

committing to you know one big batch of something that you think will work yeah

something that you think will work yeah you just experimenting a little bit more

you just experimenting a little bit more broadly collecting some information and

broadly collecting some information and allowing that information to guide your

allowing that information to guide your future to decisions you talk about this

future to decisions you talk about this thing in your book called goal's law

thing in your book called goal's law yeah what's gal's law G's law is the

yeah what's gal's law G's law is the idea that any complex system essentially

idea that any complex system essentially evolved from a simpler system that

evolved from a simpler system that worked so if you want to create a

worked so if you want to create a complex system that

complex system that works the easiest best thing to do is to

works the easiest best thing to do is to start with a simple system and then

start with a simple system and then build it up from

build it up from there and so this is like

there and so this is like when we're talking about this

when we're talking about this hypothetical candle business we're not

hypothetical candle business we're not talking about the multinational

talking about the multinational distribution version of the candle

distribution version of the candle business quite yet there's a simpler

business quite yet there's a simpler version of that business that must exist

version of that business that must exist in order for it to ever reach the level

in order for it to ever reach the level of complexity and success that would

of complexity and success that would allow that to actually operate in the

allow that to actually operate in the world and

world and so one of the the reminders of of G's

so one of the the reminders of of G's law is that it's actually okay to start

law is that it's actually okay to start simple straightforward strip it down

simple straightforward strip it down focus on the essentials start there

focus on the essentials start there because every additional bit of

because every additional bit of complexity needs to serve some sort of

complexity needs to serve some sort of purpose to justify its costs either

purpose to justify its costs either direct cost or time attention

direct cost or time attention opportunity

opportunity cost and so I think you to our earlier

cost and so I think you to our earlier conversation

conversation sometimes complexity can be seen as as a

sometimes complexity can be seen as as a bit of a weird

bit of a weird status signal like I'm fancy I'm

status signal like I'm fancy I'm sophisticated I think the more

sophisticated I think the more sophisticated thing to do is to start

sophisticated thing to do is to start simple and keep it simple on purpose and

simple and keep it simple on purpose and then make every additional bit of

then make every additional bit of complexity earn earn its way because

complexity earn earn its way because complexity isn't value this is I guess

complexity isn't value this is I guess this the the thing we get wrong we think

this the the thing we get wrong we think if we take a candle and we add some neon

if we take a candle and we add some neon lights to it and we add some I don't

lights to it and we add some I don't know like a metal lid to the top of it

know like a metal lid to the top of it and then we add you can charge your

and then we add you can charge your phone using the candle sure we think

phone using the candle sure we think because we've added more stuff people

because we've added more stuff people are going to Value it more therefore

are going to Value it more therefore they're going to pay for it more yeah

they're going to pay for it more yeah but that's not necessarily how the world

but that's not necessarily how the world works exactly you're going to screw up

works exactly you're going to screw up so many things by adding those features

so many things by adding those features you know the best example I can give is

you know the best example I can give is this whoop on my wrist which I'm an

this whoop on my wrist which I'm an investor in and Ambassador for so I'm

investor in and Ambassador for so I'm not Shilling it here but it's just a

not Shilling it here but it's just a something that always comes to mind

something that always comes to mind where you ask the founder of why you

where you ask the founder of why you didn't add

didn't add a watch to it why you didn't add the

a watch to it why you didn't add the time because you could simply just put

time because you could simply just put the time on there sure but he said

the time on there sure but he said adding an additional feature changes the

adding an additional feature changes the frame and that really made me understand

frame and that really made me understand this idea that more isn't more in as it

this idea that more isn't more in as it relates to value of products because the

relates to value of products because the minute you add the time to a whoop it

minute you add the time to a whoop it becomes a watch and then people have

becomes a watch and then people have these whole new set of expectations of a

these whole new set of expectations of a watch it's a fashion item etc etc

watch it's a fashion item etc etc interesting I've never heard that that

interesting I've never heard that that term before gouls law yeah we like it's

term before gouls law yeah we like it's instructive that we're talking about

instructive that we're talking about candles and not about some complex

candles and not about some complex mechanical device that you would bolt on

mechanical device that you would bolt on to a a building's a HB system to deliver

to a a building's a HB system to deliver scent to the entire space right like

scent to the entire space right like don't start there maybe start with a

don't start there maybe start with a candle and then at a certain point if it

candle and then at a certain point if it makes sense to move in a in a direction

makes sense to move in a in a direction based on what your customers are telling

based on what your customers are telling you that's fantastic but but keeping it

you that's fantastic but but keeping it simple from the beginning is is the way

simple from the beginning is is the way to go once upon a time if you had a

to go once upon a time if you had a business idea it was exceptionally

business idea it was exceptionally difficult to get going but now in the

difficult to get going but now in the age of Shopify it is exceptionally easy

age of Shopify it is exceptionally easy as many of you will know Shopify are

as many of you will know Shopify are sponsor of this podcast if you don't

sponsor of this podcast if you don't know Shopify it's an exceptionally

know Shopify it's an exceptionally simple web platform for anybody that's

simple web platform for anybody that's got an idea that wants to transact on a

got an idea that wants to transact on a global scale so things like these

global scale so things like these conversation cards which we sell we've

conversation cards which we sell we've sold using Shopify and it only took us a

sold using Shopify and it only took us a couple of clicks to get going so why did

couple of clicks to get going so why did we choose Shopify for a number of

we choose Shopify for a number of reasons but I think one of the big ones

reasons but I think one of the big ones which goes unappreciated is their

which goes unappreciated is their checkout system converts 36% better

checkout system converts 36% better compared to other platforms and here's

compared to other platforms and here's what I'm going to do to remove the cost

what I'm going to do to remove the cost for you if you go to shopify.com Bartlet

for you if you go to shopify.com Bartlet you'll be able to try Shopify for

you'll be able to try Shopify for $1 a month I've seen Shopify completely

$1 a month I've seen Shopify completely change people's lives and for many of

change people's lives and for many of you I think it could change yours we

you I think it could change yours we haven't spoken about this book though

haven't spoken about this book though first 20 hours yeah the first 20 hours

first 20 hours yeah the first 20 hours how to learn

how to learn anything and you have a TED Talk don't

anything and you have a TED Talk don't you which was crazy yeah crazy crazy I

you which was crazy yeah crazy crazy I don't know if it's hit 40 million views

don't know if it's hit 40 million views yet but PR pretty close if not 40

yet but PR pretty close if not 40 million views on a TED talk about the

million views on a TED talk about the first 20 hours how to learn anything

first 20 hours how to learn anything yeah why why did it do so well I think

yeah why why did it do so well I think for a couple of different reasons

for a couple of different reasons because that's one of the best view TED

because that's one of the best view TED talks of all time yes that's crazy yes I

talks of all time yes that's crazy yes I did a TED Talk nobody nobody watched it

did a TED Talk nobody nobody watched it I did like T talk are fun they're very

I did like T talk are fun they're very fun

fun um yeah so so the T talk for the first

um yeah so so the T talk for the first 20 hours did did very well and I think I

20 hours did did very well and I think I think part of it has to do

think part of it has to do with it's something we all have in

with it's something we all have in common right like wanting or needing to

common right like wanting or needing to learn

learn something necessary useful fun cool not

something necessary useful fun cool not really having a whole lot of time like

really having a whole lot of time like we're we're busy people we're busy

we're we're busy people we're busy culturally um and so there's a bit of a

culturally um and so there's a bit of a conflicting desire there of like yeah I

conflicting desire there of like yeah I want I want to learn this but I I don't

want I want to learn this but I I don't have a whole a lot of capacity to spare

have a whole a lot of capacity to spare here um and then the the Genesis of the

here um and then the the Genesis of the book was was digging into some of the

book was was digging into some of the psychology research that I that I

psychology research that I that I uncovered in the process of working on

uncovered in the process of working on personal MBA which was all about

personal MBA which was all about learning new

learning new things

things and learning that the first few

and learning that the first few hours of acquiring or learning any

hours of acquiring or learning any particular

particular skill are

skill are validated by research to be both the

validated by research to be both the most effective and the most efficient so

most effective and the most efficient so like your rate of improvement per time

like your rate of improvement per time of of uh or per unit of time and energy

of of uh or per unit of time and energy invested at the very beginning of

invested at the very beginning of Learning something new is extremely

Learning something new is extremely high and so the question that that

high and so the question that that sparked the research for the first 20

sparked the research for the first 20 hours is is there a way that we can take

hours is is there a way that we can take advantage of that consciously like is

advantage of that consciously like is there a way that we can

there a way that we can be very conscious and deliberate about

be very conscious and deliberate about how we approach the process of learning

how we approach the process of learning something new to

something new to make to to to reap the maximum rewards

make to to to reap the maximum rewards from that early stage of learning

from that early stage of learning something that you're not familiar with

something that you're not familiar with and how good can we get in in that early

and how good can we get in in that early early window and in my research you can

early window and in my research you can go from from knowing absolutely nothing

go from from knowing absolutely nothing about

about something to being reasonably good in

something to being reasonably good in much less time than than you would

much less time than than you would expect so in my experience that's about

expect so in my experience that's about 20 hours of focused deliberate practice

20 hours of focused deliberate practice so call it 40 minutes a day for about a

so call it 40 minutes a day for about a month but but the narrative out on the

month but but the narrative out on the market is that you have to do 10,000

market is that you have to do 10,000 hours I mean this is everyone uses this

hours I mean this is everyone uses this phrase in in society they say have you

phrase in in society they say have you done your 10,000

done your 10,000 hours so you're telling me it's actually

hours so you're telling me it's actually 20 hours is the key I'm saying different

20 hours is the key I'm saying different goals based on different objectives so

goals based on different objectives so um K Andrew Ericson was the researcher

um K Andrew Ericson was the researcher behind the the 10,000 hour

behind the the 10,000 hour rule and I think what's important to to

rule and I think what's important to to understand about that as a general

understand about that as a general guideline is those studies were focused

guideline is those studies were focused on

on Mastery of very competitive performance

Mastery of very competitive performance oriented activities so call it so the

oriented activities so call it so the original studies were done um with

original studies were done um with correlating practice hours to how high a

correlating practice hours to how high a position do you have in like the first

position do you have in like the first violin and an orchestra sort of thing

violin and an orchestra sort of thing and there was a correlation between like

and there was a correlation between like how much do you practice how good to you

how much do you practice how good to you get that's all well and good and yeah

get that's all well and good and yeah generally speaking the more deliberate

generally speaking the more deliberate practice that that you have on on a

practice that that you have on on a certain thing the the better you are

certain thing the the better you are that is a true

that is a true thing to me

me I think it's valuable to shift the spotlight from Mastery which is very

spotlight from Mastery which is very flashy very high status people who are

flashy very high status people who are extremely skilled at things have a lot

extremely skilled at things have a lot of energy and attention around them

of energy and attention around them that's

that's great

great um the type of skill acquisition that

um the type of skill acquisition that most of us do most often throughout our

most of us do most often throughout our entire

entire lifespan is figure out how to do

lifespan is figure out how to do something new for the first time like

something new for the first time like dejing for me exactly yeah so how do I

dejing for me exactly yeah so how do I do that then know you talk about these

do that then know you talk about these 10 major principles of Rapid skill

10 major principles of Rapid skill acquisition sure where I can learn

acquisition sure where I can learn anything in 20 hours what are the most

anything in 20 hours what are the most important elements of this that I need

important elements of this that I need to know about if I'm someone who maybe

to know about if I'm someone who maybe let's in the context of business has

let's in the context of business has never started a business in my life has

never started a business in my life has never run one before but I do want to

never run one before but I do want to learn how to do it yeah the best way to

learn how to do it yeah the best way to approach

approach this is

this is um there's a set of five recommendations

um there's a set of five recommendations that that that go in

that that that go in order and the first is like deciding

order and the first is like deciding exactly what it is that you're trying to

exactly what it is that you're trying to do so in my experience like a lot of

do so in my experience like a lot of people when they at the beginning of the

people when they at the beginning of the process of learning how to do

process of learning how to do something the goal is way too big like

something the goal is way too big like it's way too much way too soon

it's way too much way too soon um whereas something something specific

um whereas something something specific concrete and approachable

concrete and approachable is a way better place to start so um

is a way better place to start so um dejing an entire set at a crazy music

dejing an entire set at a crazy music festival is not the place to set the

festival is not the place to set the goal right at the very beginning

goal right at the very beginning it's I want to do my first song for

it's I want to do my first song for myself for me it was like I want to mix

myself for me it was like I want to mix that song into that song without it

that song into that song without it sounding [ __ ] totally exactly and that's

sounding [ __ ] totally exactly and that's a great place to start because then it's

a great place to start because then it's like okay this is a concrete specific

like okay this is a concrete specific thing I know exactly what it looks like

thing I know exactly what it looks like you probably had some experience

you probably had some experience listening to music of this type knowing

listening to music of this type knowing when things go well and when they when

when things go well and when they when they don't go well so you had a little

they don't go well so you had a little bit of like taste context

bit of like taste context perspective and so deciding like okay my

perspective and so deciding like okay my early goal is to do this one specific

early goal is to do this one specific thing it's the first failure mode

thing it's the first failure mode because most people don't decide on that

because most people don't decide on that concrete specific thing it's way way too

concrete specific thing it's way way too way too nebulous there's not enough to

way too nebulous there's not enough to work with so deciding is the first

work with so deciding is the first part from

part from there most of the things that we we talk

there most of the things that we we talk about as skills

about as skills aren't single skills they're actually

aren't single skills they're actually bundles of smaller subskills that are

bundles of smaller subskills that are all important and you use in in in in

all important and you use in in in in combination and so I'm not familiar with

combination and so I'm not familiar with DJ DJing so you can fill in the blanks

DJ DJing so you can fill in the blanks for me but like what were some of the

for me but like what were some of the smaller things that you needed to learn

smaller things that you needed to learn how to do as a thing to be able to like

how to do as a thing to be able to like mix one song into another well you need

mix one song into another well you need to know music because music has

to know music because music has different I'm really going to but you so

different I'm really going to but you so DJs are literally going to laugh at me

DJs are literally going to laugh at me in their WhatsApp groups but um

in their WhatsApp groups but um different beats per minute so every song

different beats per minute so every song has a different beat per minute so you

has a different beat per minute so you need to learn about the different beats

need to learn about the different beats per minute so you can merge them um

per minute so you can merge them um every song has a different key I think

every song has a different key I think that's kind of what they call it a key

that's kind of what they call it a key so you have like an a a b a c and you

so you have like an a a b a c and you need to know that because before you

need to know that because before you even get to mixing them in that's quite

even get to mixing them in that's quite important um so that's the like the

important um so that's the like the music side of thing then there's the

music side of thing then there's the like the hardware itself which is

like the hardware itself which is knowing how you see two songs coming at

knowing how you see two songs coming at the same time so you need to learn about

the same time so you need to learn about the hardware before you can mix two

the hardware before you can mix two songs together and then

songs together and then um yeah actually interestingly in the

um yeah actually interestingly in the first hour of lessons I was expecting to

first hour of lessons I was expecting to jump on the decks but the first hour of

jump on the decks but the first hour of lessons that I had was all about what is

lessons that I had was all about what is music totally it was like an and how

music totally it was like an and how does music sound good and this kind of

does music sound good and this kind of like eight bar thing that music goes in

like eight bar thing that music goes in so it was all about music itself I had

so it was all about music itself I had to start over there whereas I was

to start over there whereas I was expecting to jump on the decks yes that

expecting to jump on the decks yes that is a brilliant example of deconstruction

is a brilliant example of deconstruction it's exactly what we're talking about so

it's exactly what we're talking about so the skill is not dejing itself it's

the skill is not dejing itself it's learning about Keys learning about Tempo

learning about Keys learning about Tempo learning about transitions learning

learning about transitions learning about all of these smaller things that

about all of these smaller things that you need to use in concert in order to

you need to use in concert in order to use them together to do this more

use them together to do this more complex thing that you want to do so a

complex thing that you want to do so a good teacher like the value of a good

good teacher like the value of a good teacher is they can help you with that

teacher is they can help you with that deconstruction like what are all the

deconstruction like what are all the little subcomponents that I need and

little subcomponents that I need and then the next layer down from that is

then the next layer down from that is once you've deconstructed into the

once you've deconstructed into the smaller parts that's when you start to

smaller parts that's when you start to do some research of which of these parts

do some research of which of these parts are more important or less important

are more important or less important what should I focus on first what can

what should I focus on first what can wait until later and so like Tempo and

wait until later and so like Tempo and musical Keys might be really important

musical Keys might be really important and so it might make sense to to start

and so it might make sense to to start the process there let's get that really

the process there let's get that really solid we can wait for the hardware we

solid we can wait for the hardware we can wait for the plugins we can wait for

can wait for the plugins we can wait for you know all of these things that comes

you know all of these things that comes later get this stuff down solid first

later get this stuff down solid first nobody wants to wait yeah you know you

nobody wants to wait yeah you know you know what I mean that's the thing

know what I mean that's the thing like I

like I think there's an element to which that's

think there's an element to which that's true there's also an element

true there's also an element to waiting here going about it in a

to waiting here going about it in a little bit more of a deliberate

little bit more of a deliberate fashion is what gives us an Advantage as

fashion is what gives us an Advantage as adult Learners like we can approach what

adult Learners like we can approach what we're doing in in a strategic way we can

we're doing in in a strategic way we can we can focus our time and attention on

we can focus our time and attention on the things that are going to have the

the things that are going to have the highest rewards first and so just a

highest rewards first and so just a little bit of impulse control of like

little bit of impulse control of like I'm gonna hold off on the buttons for a

I'm gonna hold off on the buttons for a couple hours to learn a little bit of

couple hours to learn a little bit of this first like that's where you

this first like that's where you start figuring

start figuring out the inflection points in the skill

out the inflection points in the skill like the the thing that if you can just

like the the thing that if you can just wrap your head around this you can get a

wrap your head around this you can get a huge Improvement in a very short period

huge Improvement in a very short period of time and then the trick on the

of time and then the trick on the research phase and this is the one that

research phase and this is the one that I struggle with a lot because I like

I struggle with a lot because I like research it's fun for me I can get stuck

research it's fun for me I can get stuck here and so the trick is to

here and so the trick is to do just enough research to give

do just enough research to give yourself context understanding what

yourself context understanding what you're looking for an idea of what it

you're looking for an idea of what it looks like to do well or to not do well

looks like to do well or to not do well and from

and from there you do just enough to know a

there you do just enough to know a little bit of what you're doing and then

little bit of what you're doing and then you actually start the focused

you actually start the focused deliberate practice component because

deliberate practice component because that's where the skill is actually built

that's where the skill is actually built the skill is not built in research a lot

the skill is not built in research a lot of people seem to get stuck on that

of people seem to get stuck on that research part because they are you know

research part because they are you know that people call them in culture

that people call them in culture procrastinators but I had a conversation

procrastinators but I had a conversation with Nel and he said we're discomfort

with Nel and he said we're discomfort avoiding creatures and he said whenever

avoiding creatures and he said whenever you find yourself

you find yourself procrastinating um it's basically

procrastinating um it's basically because there's discomfort associated

because there's discomfort associated with the task at hand yeah so I had a

with the task at hand yeah so I had a conversation with someone very close to

conversation with someone very close to me recently actually yesterday and um in

me recently actually yesterday and um in our conversation they've been meaning to

our conversation they've been meaning to do this online project for a long long

do this online project for a long long time for two years now and they've just

time for two years now and they've just done everything but this online project

done everything but this online project and when we kind of deconstructed it as

and when we kind of deconstructed it as you said it was really

you said it was really because they don't feel competent yeah

because they don't feel competent yeah in several of the individual pieces so

in several of the individual pieces so they're just like researching themselves

they're just like researching themselves to death and Mak taking no action

to death and Mak taking no action absolutely this is one of the biggest

absolutely this is one of the biggest the biggest barriers to learning as an

the biggest barriers to learning as an adult um adult Learners hate to feel

adult um adult Learners hate to feel stupid we hate to to feel over our head

stupid we hate to to feel over our head that we don't know what we're doing that

that we don't know what we're doing that we're going to look bad in front of

we're going to look bad in front of others that there's some idealized skill

others that there's some idealized skill level that would represent success and

level that would represent success and your early attempts look nothing like

your early attempts look nothing like that um there was an interesting study

that um there was an interesting study that was done

that was done about changes in um in artistic ability

about changes in um in artistic ability and inclination over the human lifespan

and inclination over the human lifespan and so when when you ask a bunch of

and so when when you ask a bunch of young

young children are you an

children are you an artist every one of them answerers yes

artist every one of them answerers yes yeah I create art that's it's what I do

yeah I create art that's it's what I do and there's a certain threshold and it

and there's a certain threshold and it usually happens around like the the

usually happens around like the the Middle grades uh junior

Middle grades uh junior highish where people will start to say

highish where people will start to say like no this not something that I do and

like no this not something that I do and there's a certain amount of

there's a certain amount of self-consciousness that develops in the

self-consciousness that develops in the process of becoming an adult where you

process of becoming an adult where you can start to recognize that the

can start to recognize that the difference between what you can do and

difference between what you can do and what you want to do can be somewhat

what you want to do can be somewhat extreme yeah and that self-consciousness

extreme yeah and that self-consciousness can be an active barrier to to getting

can be an active barrier to to getting started in the first place um so by comp

started in the first place um so by comp comparison as well isn't it really

comparison as well isn't it really because yeah like comparison with other

because yeah like comparison with other people and then also comparison with

people and then also comparison with ourselves MH um so with other people

ourselves MH um so with other people like early stages of skill acquisition

like early stages of skill acquisition if you're comparing yourself to the

if you're comparing yourself to the Masters in hours one two and three you

Masters in hours one two and three you are not doing yourself any favors at all

are not doing yourself any favors at all um and then even

um and then even like I think that's a little bit easier

like I think that's a little bit easier to avoid because I have only golfed a

to avoid because I have only golfed a couple times in my

couple times in my life comparing myself to Tiger Woods

life comparing myself to Tiger Woods doesn't feel like even like conceptually

doesn't feel like even like conceptually appropriate thing for me to do that

appropriate thing for me to do that that's that's not difficult the harder

that's that's not difficult the harder thing is comparing yourself to the other

thing is comparing yourself to the other person who has not golfed very much but

person who has not golfed very much but somehow hit a shot straight or or

somehow hit a shot straight or or whatever or like it feels like this

whatever or like it feels like this shouldn't be so hard for me why is this

shouldn't be so hard for me why is this so hard for me and then like the self

so hard for me and then like the self recrimination feedback loop starts and

recrimination feedback loop starts and so um I talk about in the in the first

so um I talk about in the in the first 20 hours

20 hours I call this the frustration barrier and

I call this the frustration barrier and so generally speaking rough rule of

so generally speaking rough rule of thumb hours 1 to 10 are brutal

thumb hours 1 to 10 are brutal emotionally speaking and so those th

emotionally speaking and so those th that's the period of time where um

that's the period of time where um you're really frustrated things make

you're really frustrated things make very little sense you're like I don't

very little sense you're like I don't know what a key is let alone a key

know what a key is let alone a key change what's a beat per minute and like

change what's a beat per minute and like all of those self-consciousness circuits

all of those self-consciousness circuits are fully online fully firing

are fully online fully firing and um no matter how much you want

and um no matter how much you want something those those first few hours

something those those first few hours can be pretty brutal it's where most

can be pretty brutal it's where most people quit as well I guess yeah and and

people quit as well I guess yeah and and that's why like it's an it's an

that's why like it's an it's an emotional management problem and so the

emotional management problem and so the way to get around that also the way to

way to get around that also the way to get out of research mode into doing mode

get out of research mode into doing mode and this is this is where where the

and this is this is where where the title the first 20 hours comes from from

title the first 20 hours comes from from the first 20 hours refers to a

the first 20 hours refers to a pre-commitment which is a very useful

pre-commitment which is a very useful piece of Behavioral

piece of Behavioral psychology that says that if you

psychology that says that if you pre-commit to taking a certain action

pre-commit to taking a certain action either a certain amount of times or

either a certain amount of times or within a certain period of time either

within a certain period of time either to yourselves or ideally to other people

to yourselves or ideally to other people you're far more likely to actually

you're far more likely to actually follow through on the doing of the thing

follow through on the doing of the thing and so what I found is that in learning

and so what I found is that in learning a new skill making a pre-commitment that

a new skill making a pre-commitment that no matter what I'm going to spend 20

no matter what I'm going to spend 20 hours doing this thing I might be

hours doing this thing I might be terrible this might be really

terrible this might be really uncomfortable I might hate it I might

uncomfortable I might hate it I might never do this again but no matter what I

never do this again but no matter what I care about this thing that I want to

care about this thing that I want to learn enough that I'm going to invest at

learn enough that I'm going to invest at least 20 hours of my life figuring out

least 20 hours of my life figuring out if this is good if this works for me if

if this is good if this works for me if this is beneficial you said something

this is beneficial you said something there which I think is key which is sure

there which I think is key which is sure you said this matters to me enough yes

you said this matters to me enough yes that feels like it's a prerequisite

that feels like it's a prerequisite something that we really need to be

something that we really need to be clear on before we even start yeah you

clear on before we even start yeah you know because without that part you you

know because without that part you you refer to it in your 10 major principles

refer to it in your 10 major principles of Rapid skill acquisition as choosing a

of Rapid skill acquisition as choosing a lovable project exactly yeah what does

lovable project exactly yeah what does that matter well it's because we're busy

that matter well it's because we're busy it's because we don't have infinite time

it's because we don't have infinite time energy and attention to do all the

energy and attention to do all the things that might look feel sound fun or

things that might look feel sound fun or interesting to us and

interesting to us and so there there needs to be at least some

so there there needs to be at least some minimum threshold of yeah this is

minimum threshold of yeah this is important to me to make some trade-offs

important to me to make some trade-offs in other areas of of my life or

in other areas of of my life or to um not watch that that movie or you

to um not watch that that movie or you know not relax on on social media this

know not relax on on social media this night I'm going to carve out some time

night I'm going to carve out some time in my day and actually make this a

in my day and actually make this a priority to sit down and do the work and

priority to sit down and do the work and generally speaking I found that for

generally speaking I found that for myself if I'm not willing to make the

myself if I'm not willing to make the pre-commitment to put at least 20 hours

pre-commitment to put at least 20 hours into it that's a pretty good indication

into it that's a pretty good indication that it is not important enough for me

that it is not important enough for me to to invest time and energy and in the

to to invest time and energy and in the first place we've been through most of

first place we've been through most of them there so number one is choose a

them there so number one is choose a lovable project number two is focus your

lovable project number two is focus your energy on one skill at a time we said

energy on one skill at a time we said that one number three is Define your

that one number three is Define your target performance level we talked about

target performance level we talked about that as well number four is deconstruct

that as well number four is deconstruct the skill and subskills number five is

the skill and subskills number five is obtain critical tools which I guess is

obtain critical tools which I guess is the tools you need to do the practice

the tools you need to do the practice right yeah that's um kind of a subset of

right yeah that's um kind of a subset of removing barriers to practice okay and

removing barriers to practice okay and so the classic example here is um so

so the classic example here is um so many people in the world want to learn

many people in the world want to learn how to play the

how to play the guitar and so the thing to not do is buy

guitar and so the thing to not do is buy a guitar and leave it in the case and

a guitar and leave it in the case and put it in uh a closet upstairs far away

put it in uh a closet upstairs far away because that just requires too much time

because that just requires too much time energy thought attention of like

energy thought attention of like remembering where it is going upstairs

remembering where it is going upstairs grabbing the guitar getting it out of

grabbing the guitar getting it out of the case getting all ready the best

the case getting all ready the best thing that you can do is just make it

thing that you can do is just make it really really easy remove all the

really really easy remove all the friction from it get a little stand put

friction from it get a little stand put it right next to you know your living

it right next to you know your living room chair or couch where it's visible

room chair or couch where it's visible Insight all you need to do is reach over

Insight all you need to do is reach over grab it and start it just makes it more

grab it and start it just makes it more likely you're actually going to sit down

likely you're actually going to sit down and do the work I think we've covered

and do the work I think we've covered all 10 there the last one is emphasize

all 10 there the last one is emphasize quantity and speed yes yes mean so early

quantity and speed yes yes mean so early on in in the

on in in the process there's a tendency to like want

process there's a tendency to like want to do

to do it perfectly

it perfectly sooner versus do it doing it in

sooner versus do it doing it in perfectly more is actually more

perfectly more is actually more beneficial and so in this case you for

beneficial and so in this case you for for your

for your DJing mixing a lot of songs one to the

DJing mixing a lot of songs one to the other is going to teach you a lot more

other is going to teach you a lot more than just hyperfocusing on what song A

than just hyperfocusing on what song A into song b and I'm going to work until

into song b and I'm going to work until this is perfect you're just not going to

this is perfect you're just not going to learn as much it's the variety the

learn as much it's the variety the exploration and the variety of

exploration and the variety of circumstances will teach you more about

circumstances will teach you more about what it looks and feels and sounds like

what it looks and feels and sounds like than trying to get too perfect on one

than trying to get too perfect on one specific thing too quickly so like going

specific thing too quickly so like going back to the the playing guitar thing

back to the the playing guitar thing like get a bunch of tabs and learn how

like get a bunch of tabs and learn how to play a whole bunch of different songs

to play a whole bunch of different songs not super well because it's the

not super well because it's the commonalities that you learn between the

commonalities that you learn between the different experiences those are the

different experiences those are the things that really tune you into what's

things that really tune you into what's really important the foundations of the

really important the foundations of the exactly like yeah what's a chord so for

exactly like yeah what's a chord so for what's a chord how do you change from

what's a chord how do you change from one chord to another

one chord to another um tracking beats Tempo things like that

um tracking beats Tempo things like that like those are the foundational skills

like those are the foundational skills that apply across pieces of music and so

that apply across pieces of music and so if you practice those first across a

if you practice those first across a wide variety of things that's just

wide variety of things that's just optimizing that early practice around

optimizing that early practice around things that will stick that you you'll

things that will stick that you you'll use a lot is there anything about the

use a lot is there anything about the subjec of learning and the first 20

subjec of learning and the first 20 hours that we've not discussed that you

hours that we've not discussed that you think is especially important to close

think is especially important to close off on if someone is really that they

off on if someone is really that they want to learn a new skill and we're

want to learn a new skill and we're thinking about where they are and where

thinking about where they are and where they want to get to is there anything

they want to get to is there anything else that you think they need to know

else that you think they need to know that we haven't covered I think that

that we haven't covered I think that this duv Tales a little bit with our

this duv Tales a little bit with our conversation around pon

conversation around pon spend more of your time doing weird cool

spend more of your time doing weird cool things like having that that exploration

things like having that that exploration budget of of really just like the

budget of of really just like the further a field you go the more things

further a field you go the more things you discover you'll find some surprising

you discover you'll find some surprising commonalities that can be very

commonalities that can be very interesting and very cool um we were

interesting and very cool um we were talking about Apple

talking about Apple earlier one of the primary design in

earlier one of the primary design in irations for for the Apple Computing

irations for for the Apple Computing system was Steve Jobs taking a random

system was Steve Jobs taking a random calligraphy class in

calligraphy class in college and it's not something that you

college and it's not something that you would put together in some sort of

would put together in some sort of obvious way but it was an important

obvious way but it was an important enough influence of being able to take

enough influence of being able to take some part of life and like apply it in a

some part of life and like apply it in a different way in a different context to

different way in a different context to another thing that that unlocked a lot

another thing that that unlocked a lot of value for a lot of people and so

of value for a lot of people and so for me like in in in the larger

sense I think it's just really valuable to take a step back and think about like

to take a step back and think about like what might I want to experience or what

what might I want to experience or what might I want to learn how to do at some

might I want to learn how to do at some point in my life just make a list could

point in my life just make a list could and it can be I think self-editing here

and it can be I think self-editing here is is not the way to go just like make a

is is not the way to go just like make a list of all the things that that appeal

list of all the things that that appeal to you for whatever reason and then the

to you for whatever reason and then the benefit of of a an approach like the

benefit of of a an approach like the first 20 hours is it gives you a way to

first 20 hours is it gives you a way to make actually going about doing that

make actually going about doing that thing look and feel far more

thing look and feel far more approachable than it otherwise might be

approachable than it otherwise might be when you said the thing about Apple

when you said the thing about Apple there in Steve Jobs going to that

there in Steve Jobs going to that typography calligraphy class it made me

typography calligraphy class it made me it made me realize that in life there

it made me realize that in life there really is no such thing as a waste of

really is no such thing as a waste of time no there's really not because we

time no there's really not because we you know we think of oh chilling on

you know we think of oh chilling on Netflix as a waste of time

Netflix as a waste of time but you can uncover something about

but you can uncover something about story arc from watching a movie that

story arc from watching a movie that makes you bring that into your creative

makes you bring that into your creative work or into an advertising campaign and

work or into an advertising campaign and you know I think some actually it's

you know I think some actually it's interestingly because if you think about

interestingly because if you think about that example you gave of Steve Jobs in

that example you gave of Steve Jobs in that typography class had he just gone

that typography class had he just gone to computer programming lessons yeah

to computer programming lessons yeah about how to make software or Hardware

about how to make software or Hardware he wouldn't have stumbled across the

he wouldn't have stumbled across the brilliant sort of insight that design

brilliant sort of insight that design and typography and calligraphy really

and typography and calligraphy really really matters so these devices wouldn't

really matters so these devices wouldn't be so amazing so sometimes the most

be so amazing so sometimes the most valuable skills or inspiration we can

valuable skills or inspiration we can acquire exists clearly outside of the

acquire exists clearly outside of the bubble that we work in

bubble that we work in totally Josh we have a closing tradition

totally Josh we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest

on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not

leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to leave it

knowing who they're going to leave it for oh excellent that's fun and the last

for oh excellent that's fun and the last question that was left for you is oh

question that was left for you is oh they finally got some finally someone

they finally got some finally someone with good handwriting um I can read this

with good handwriting um I can read this one without stuttering when you look

one without stuttering when you look back on your life are there more things

back on your life are there more things you regret doing or regret not doing

you regret doing or regret not doing please give some

please give some examples wow they they went heavy

examples wow they they went heavy hitting on this one a stitch up I love

hitting on this one a stitch up I love this stitches up the next cast no it's

this stitches up the next cast no it's good

um I think I have more mistakes of commission things

have more mistakes of commission things I've

I've done than m Stakes of omission or or

done than m Stakes of omission or or regrets so generally speaking like if I

regrets so generally speaking like if I can anticipate that I'm going to regret

can anticipate that I'm going to regret something I just try not to do that

something I just try not to do that thing in the first place

thing in the first place um

um and I think some of those things like

and I think some of those things like can can fall into like daydreamy sorts

can can fall into like daydreamy sorts of oh what would have happened if I oh

of oh what would have happened if I oh yeah like hindsight yeah I mean almost

yeah like hindsight yeah I mean almost pure hindsight bias yeah which is also

pure hindsight bias yeah which is also one of the things I talk about in

one of the things I talk about in personal NBA like it's a it's a thing so

personal NBA like it's a it's a thing so um for me it

um for me it is like a lot of those regrets revolve

is like a lot of those regrets revolve around um decisions that I made that

around um decisions that I made that didn't work out

didn't work out um

um relationships um I have I have two kids

relationships um I have I have two kids and the process of of raising kids is uh

and the process of of raising kids is uh hopefully informed trial and error but

hopefully informed trial and error but like fundamentally trial and error and

like fundamentally trial and error and um yeah that's part of the learning and

um yeah that's part of the learning and the experimentation too of just

the experimentation too of just like sometimes you have to make the call

like sometimes you have to make the call on the Fly and sometimes you don't know

on the Fly and sometimes you don't know whether the call you made is is the

whether the call you made is is the right one the best

right one the best one um do you have a mental model or

one um do you have a mental model or framework for decisions generally I

framework for decisions generally I really like my fundamental way of

really like my fundamental way of approaching decisions

approaching decisions is scenario planning like I really try

is scenario planning like I really try to think through all right what are my

to think through all right what are my options here how much detail can I

options here how much detail can I create around each of these potential

create around each of these potential options what are the trade-offs are

options what are the trade-offs are there any really like hard trade-offs

there any really like hard trade-offs things that must be accounted for and

things that must be accounted for and then just really TR like in my current

then just really TR like in my current understanding try to play out what's

understanding try to play out what's likely to have happen down each of those

likely to have happen down each of those paths and then pick the one that seems

paths and then pick the one that seems the best or the most appropriate given

the best or the most appropriate given the

the circumstances Josh thank you thank you

circumstances Josh thank you thank you for writing two exceptionally important

for writing two exceptionally important books and really you know I I'm a real

books and really you know I I'm a real big Advocate and believer that we need

big Advocate and believer that we need more entrepreneurs in the world but more

more entrepreneurs in the world but more people just generally that understand

people just generally that understand business even if they're going to

business even if they're going to continue to work in corporate

continue to work in corporate environments because I think that's net

environments because I think that's net benefit Ben I think that's net

benefit Ben I think that's net beneficial to Society at large our

beneficial to Society at large our society but also to individuals because

society but also to individuals because it empowers them to have more

it empowers them to have more optionality in their lives to be able to

optionality in their lives to be able to make more choices about what they want

make more choices about what they want to do where they want to spend their

to do where they want to spend their time and societies run on businesses you

time and societies run on businesses you know what we're doing now is a business

know what we're doing now is a business um the way that I'll get home tonight is

um the way that I'll get home tonight is a business so understanding the

a business so understanding the fundamentals the levers that are running

fundamentals the levers that are running Society I think is only net positive for

Society I think is only net positive for everybody and that's exactly what the

everybody and that's exactly what the personal NBA does it deconstructs what

personal NBA does it deconstructs what businesses are and it helps us

businesses are and it helps us understand the world around us and the

understand the world around us and the incentive structures of the world around

incentive structures of the world around us in a really really empowering way so

us in a really really empowering way so thank you for writing a book that really

thank you for writing a book that really speaks to those people that maybe can't

speaks to those people that maybe can't afford to go and get a very expensive

afford to go and get a very expensive ensive NBA one of those top schools um

ensive NBA one of those top schools um but gives them an equally if not more

but gives them an equally if not more important understanding of business than

important understanding of business than anything ever could it's an exceptional

anything ever could it's an exceptional book and I applaud you for writing it so

book and I applaud you for writing it so thank you thank you very much that was

thank you thank you very much that was very kind to say and I appreciate it

very kind to say and I appreciate it [Music]

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