Social media platforms, driven by manipulative algorithms and addictive design, pose significant risks to individual well-being and societal health by subtly altering behavior and distorting reality.
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is there a principle reason why I should
delete my social media and if so what is
it mmm
there are two one of them is for your
own good and the other is for society's good
good
for your own good it's because you're
being subtly manipulated by algorithms
that are watching everything you do
constantly and then sending you changes
in your media feed in your diet that are
calculated to adjust you slightly to the
liking of some unseen advertiser and so
if you get off that you can have a
chance to experience a clear view of
yourself in your life but then the
reason for society might be even more
important Society has been gradually
darkened by this scheme in which
everyone is under surveillance all the
time and everyone is under this mild
version of behavior modification all the
time it's made people jittery and cranky
it's made teens especially depressed
which can be quite severe but it's made
our politics kind of unreal and strange
where we're not sure if elections are
real anymore we're not sure how much the
Russians affected brexit we do know that
it was a crankier affair that it might
have been otherwise you say it's not for
me as an individual is it bad for me
because I'm addicted why become
chemically hooked you have the founders
of the great Silicon Valley spying
empires like Facebook have publicly
declared that they intentionally
included addictive schemes in in their
designs now we have to say this is what
I would call almost a stealthy addiction
it's it's a statistical addiction what
it says is we will get the broad
population to use the services a lot
will get them hooked through a scheme of
rewards and punishment and the rewards
or when you're retweeted the punishment
is when you're treated badly by others
online and then within that will very
gradually start to leverage that to
change them so it
it's this very kind of stealthy
manipulation of the population so it's
not as dramatic as a heroin addict or a
gambling addict but it is the same
principle but who's doing the
manipulating I mean it there isn't some
most sort of Wizard of all sitting
behind a screen well this is the
peculiarity of the situation the people
who run the tech companies like Google
and Facebook are not doing the
manipulating they're doing the addicting
but the manipulating which rides on the
back of the addicting is the paying
customer of such a company so and and
many of those customers are not at all
bad influences they might simply be
trying to promote their cars or their
perfumes or whatever and indeed I have
sympathy for them because they're
concerned that if they don't put money
into the system nobody will know about
them and you know is it different to
just television advertising or billboard
advertising or anything else the
difference is the constant feedback loop
so when you watch the television the
television isn't watching you when you
see the billboard the billboard isn't
seeing you and vast numbers of people
see the same thing on television and see
the same billboard when you use these
new designs social media search YouTube
when you see these things you're being
observed constantly and algorithms are
taking that information and changing
what you see next and they're searching
and searching and searching and they're
just blind robots there's no evil genius
here until they find those patterns
those those little tricks that get you
and make you change your behavior in
terms of society I mean you you you
through in this you know it's making
people depressed but is there any actual
evidence for that yeah unfortunately
there's a vast amount of evidence there
have been dozens of studies at this
point including studies released by
Facebook scientists so this is this is
something we can call a consensus and
and when Facebook releases such things
they say oh but we do all these good
things to that balance it but there's
there's a general acknowledgement that
depression correlates the scariest
example is a correlation between Rises
and teen suicide and there and the rise
in use of social media and so yes
unfortunately this is real are you sure
you can blame it on social media
is it not just those two things may have
happened at the same time for other
reasons well here's a distinction we
have to make it's very similar to the
problem of global climate change we can
say statistically over the whole
population yes the correlation is real
and any particular person of course we
can't just as we can't blame any
particular storm on global warming
it's causality isn't it yeah I mean it
is causality and it's this is something
that's very well demonstrated so when
the company's own scientists are
publishing on this top it can come to
the same agreement I think it's time to
say this is real why have you sort of
turned on your own kind
I love Silicon Valley and I do not at
all feel that I've turned on my own kind
and just to be clear I'm very much a
part of this I've sold a company to
Google I'm not in any sense an outsider
I believe that what we're doing is not
in our own self-interest business
interests are a part of society if they
destroy society they destroy themselves
I believe it's very clear that we could
offer all of the good things and there
are many many good things in these
services and social media in particular
I'm convinced we can offer them without
this manipulation engine in the
background there's a world of other
business plans and I think they'd be
better for us so I don't think we're
being evil so much as we're being stupid
when it comes to Facebook has Facebook
made itself safe yet in terms of dates
of harvesting and scraping normal well
Facebook's fundamental design is one
that is it's the business model is too
addictive and then offer a channel to
you to third parties to take advantage
of that to change you in some way
without you realizing it's happening I
mean that's that's what it does so I
don't think any amount of tweaking can
fully heal it I think it needs a
different business plan I mean it's very
hard to throw a barrage of rules that's
somebody who's following certain
incentives and then expect them to
really make a difference so when my
lucky book says he's taking action and
you know he regrets what's happened and
all the rest of it you're saying he
can't make his own product a safe or
desirable product I believe that as long
as his business incentives are contrary
to the interests of the people who use
it who are different from the customers
then no matter how some serious and I
believe he's he's sincere and no matter
how clever he is he can't undo that
problem he has to go back to the basics
and change the nature of the business
planet and if he if he doesn't agree
with that and says we're just gonna
carry on how much of a important is
security of that data and the inability
to repeat what has happened with
Cambridge analyst care and all that kind
of sort of data harvesting that went on
I don't believe that this is I don't
believe that what happened with
Cambridge analytic is the worst of it
the whole system is designed for this
like let's suppose that Facebook reforms
itself so that the next Cambridge
analytic accantus access to that data
they can still get access to the same
results because the service Facebook
offers is exactly what sells yeah I mean
this is you know there are bad actors
are are are able to use Facebook in ways
that Facebook can't understand because
the way the service is designed is
fundamentally to be manipulative so I
think the data protection idea is a
sincere and good idea but it's certainly
not adequate it doesn't address the core
problem which is the manipulation engine
and as long as that is there a bad actor
can find a way to utilize it so to me
this this concern about data protection
while laudable doesn't address the core
problem do you think they're all as bad
as each other I mean you know what why
is something like YouTube which is
basically just a way of watching video
bad for you YouTube it's not necessarily
bad for you
remember this is a statistical
distribution so for some percentage of
people it'll have an effect of making
them crankier around election time and
feeling media around the time they
might be making a purchase and so forth
and the way it works is that all the
data Google can get on you much of which
comes from just your email or whatever
else it might be is fed into an engine
that compares you with other people who
share some similar traits and YouTube's
ordering of videos that are presented to
you is designed to on the one hand
maximize your engagement so you won't
stop watching but that's achieved not
just by observing you but by a multitude
of people who are similar to you and
then when you do get an ad it's
contextualized in a way that has been
shown to be effective not only for you
but for this whole population so it's
this giant statistical thing and it's
bad for you because it leeches your free
will it makes you cranky it makes the
world a little darker because you're not
perceiving reality clearly anymore
you're B it's being manipulated it's
being tricked in a way and it the people
who are paying or maybe not paying just
using the system to in a clever way to
get at you are not necessarily pleasant
people they're they're sort of the worst
actors in some cases but then some users
think look I can handle advertising you
know I know what I'm doing here I'm
getting a free service and you know they
think they're manipulating me but I know
what I'm doing the problem is that
behaviors techniques are often invisible
to the person who's being manipulated
and and this has a long history this has
been done for a long time it used to be
that the only way to be subjected to
continuous observation and modification
was to either be in an experiment you
could be in the basement of a psychology
building and have students tweaking you
for their projects or you could join a
cult or you could be in an abusive
relationship I mean this has been done
before and often the people who are in
these situations do not realize that's
happening to them in fact the whole
point is that it's it's sneaky it's it's
a it's a mechanical approach to
manipulating people and because it's
it's so algorithmic it doesn't involve
direct communication and people don't
get the cues to understand what's
happening with them why do you think
social media has had the effect
what's that it has you know is it
because of the way people respond to
things on social media well I'd like to
give you a slightly detailed answer as
quickly as I can and that is that in
traditional behaviorism you would give
an animal or a person a little treat
like candy or maybe an electric shock
and you'd go back and forth between
positive and negative feedback and when
researchers try to determine whether
positivity or negativity is more
powerful they're roughly at parity
they're both important but the
difference with social media is that the
algorithms that are are following you
respond very quickly they're looking for
the quick responses and the negative
responses like getting startled or
scared or irritated or angry tend to
rise faster than the the positive
responses like building trust or feeling
good those things rise more slowly so
the algorithms naturally catch the
negativity and amplify it and introduce
negative people to each other and all of
this and so what this does is it means
that the algorithms discovered there's
more engagement possible say by
promoting Isis and promoting the Arab
Spring and so Isis gets more mileage or
promoting the Ku Klux Klan than black
lives matter now in the big picture it's
not true that negativity is more
powerful but if you're doing this very
rapid measurement of human impulses
instead of accumulated human behavior
then it's the negativity that gets
amplified so you tend to have elections
that are more driven by rancor and abuse
and you tend to have outcomes that are
kind of crazy so the effects on the
media we consume the news as well as
also alarming because then it will be
the news that makes people angry this is
the news that gets seen in the future or
now rather than you know a more balanced
diet of what's really going on in the
world well I think what goes on on a
show like this is that you have a bit of
a longer time horizon in which by which
you measure success so you have to
impress your viewership enough to tune
in but this is over a process of days
and weeks and months and year
and you build up a sense of rapport with
your your viewership right if you're an
algorithm that's just looking at instant
responses you don't get that it's just
like how did I engage this person and
it'll be you'll you'll find that
engagement more often by irritating
people than by educating them and so is
that how you create Trump well did you
say or you know any of the other list
leaders who were doing very well at the
moment partly from the internet I I have
never known Trump but I haven't met him
a few times over a fairly long period
over thirty years actually through
different circumstances and I will say
that while I never would have voted for
him as president and I always thought he
was um somewhat untrustworthy and a bit
of a showman and a bit of a scammer he
never lost himself and became so
irritable until he had his own addiction
in this case to Twitter and it's it's
really damaged him I mean I I view Trump
in a way as a victim oh yeah absolutely
his character has been really damaged by
his Twitter addiction because of the
reaction he gets from each tweet yeah so
you know what happens in addiction is
the addict becomes hooked not just on
the good part of the addiction
experience but on the whole cycle so a
gambler is not just addicted to winning
but to this whole process where they
mostly lose and in the same way the
Twitter addict or the social media
addict becomes addicted to this
engagement which is often unpleasant
where they're engaged in these you know
really abusive exchanges with other
human beings and only once in a while is
that you know you can watch the Trump
like every once in a while there will be
this tweet where somebody likes him and
that's when he gets his little uh we
call it in the trade the dopamine hit
that's what it's called in Facebook for
instance he gets his little dopamine hit
and then he dives in for more negativity
and things then he gets it again and you
can see the addiction playing out do you
think it's possible to create a
do-gooding social networks yes I'm
absolutely positive and the way to do it
is to have a different business model wherein
wherein
so right now we've created this bizarre
society that's unprecedented where if
any two people wish to communicate over
the Internet the only way that can
happen the only way it's financed this
you're a third party who believes that
those two can be manipulated in a sneaky
way it's it's a it's an insane way to
structure civilization so we can keep
all the good stuff and there is good
stuff on social media of course we can
keep all that and just throw away the
manipulation business model and
substitute in a different business model
and and there are many alternatives that
would be better they just have to be
honest it could be a paid service like a
Netflix where you're paying for it
you're the genuine customer it has to
keep your interest it could be like a
public library it could become a public
thing that is that isn't commercial at
all that's an option but what we did in
Silicon Valley is we wanted it both ways
we wanted everything open and free but
we wanted hero entrepreneurs and hackers
and so the only way to get that was this
advertising thing that that gradually
turned into the manipulation engine as
the computers got faster and this this
weird business planet once you can see
that there are alternatives you realize
how strange it is and how unsustainable
it is this is the thing we must get rid
of we don't have to get rid of the
smartphone we don't have to get rid of
the idea of social media we just have to
get rid of the manipulation machine
that's in the background just one last
thing as well that is also obsessing
parents screen time itself do you think
that is a bad thing or is it just what's
on the screen to be frank with you I
struggle with this question because I
have an 11-year old and so I I tend to
think that manipulation time when the
kids are being observed by algorithms
and tweaked by them is vastly worse than
just screen time by itself so I'll
include video games and in the social
media you know the things that are
manipulating them because they all
similarly addictive they're addictive
but not manipulative typically another
here I'm not sure how evil we've become
lately because there might be some video
games that are using behavior mod
techniques for pay that's conceivable I
can see how that could happen
you're thinking about it out there don't
do it okay find something better to do
but the the mainstream video games are
not doing that they are addictive so
there are plenty of things that are
addictive that aren't leveraging that
for manipulation see these are two
different stages what do you think of
fault lines I have not played it done
played it because fortnight's is exactly
that it's getting people to pay for
things within their game no but see the
thing is getting them to pay is still
not manipulating them for a third party
that's getting them to buy stuff I mean
Amazon does that to get you to buy stuff
all kinds of people do that that that
might be annoying you might object to it
especially if you feel your kids are
wasting money you might object to it you
might feel it's not an ideal example of
human behavior and character and maybe
there could be a better business
whatever but it's not directly
manipulating you say to influence an
election it's not trying to change your
behavior out in the larger world and and
that's the thing that's really tragic
about designs like Facebook and Google
they are succeeding at doing that but
your advice tonight to everyone watching
this is delete all your accounts I would
like to make two very quick pitches on
that account one if you're a young
person and you've only lived with social
media your first duty is to yourself you
have to know yourself you should
experience travel you should experience
challenge to yourself you need to know
yourself and you can't know yourself
without perspective so at least give it
six months without social media and
really quit him don't like quit Facebook
would keep another Facebook thing like
whatsapp because then it'll still be
spying and manipulating get rid of the
whole thing for six months and know
yourself and then you can decide I can't
tell you what's right you have to decide
but you can't until you know yourself
and then for the rest of society I'd say
as long as we can have some small
percentage of people who are off it then
the society can have voices to give
perspective if everybody's universally
part of this thing we cannot have
perspective we cannot have a real
conversation and it's too lonely right
now you know we need more people who are
just outside of that
who are thinking without the
manipulation and I think we'll find it
extraordinarily valuable to have them
are you just New Age hippie I mean have
you just been through the mill and kind
of worked out I want to check out of all
this and let's just let's just stop
do I seem new-age to you I don't know I
mean you know I mean I hear here's what
I'll tell you the bind you put me in is
that I'd be happy to trash the new age
and and demonstrate that I'm not part of
that manner of thinking I'm certainly
not I think I hope I've come across as a
non utopian but the problem is many of
my friends in California are quite new
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