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Arthur Brooks explains how people can escape the ‘doom loop’ of social media: Full interview
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Welcome back. Joining me now is Harvard
professor Arthur Brooks, who studies and
teaches the science of happiness and is
the author of the upcoming book, The
Happiness Files. Professor Brooks,
welcome back to Meet the Press.
Thank you, Kristen. Thank you so much
for being here to be a part of this
conversation. You just heard my past two
conversations in which we talked about
the epidemic of loneliness and anxiety.
And with you, I want to talk about the
other side of this, which is the
happiness formula. You are the professor
of happiness and you have developed a
happiness formula. Can you lay it out
for us, Professor Brooks?
Of course. You know, one of the biggest
mistakes that people make is thinking
that happiness is a feeling and they're
chasing a feeling, which is not the way
emotions work. Emotions don't they're
not there to give you a good day.
They're there to give you alerts to
things that are opportunities and
threats around you. The thing to
understand about happiness is that it's
more tangible. The the the feelings are
evidence of happiness. Actual happiness
or the happiest people have a
combination of three very concrete
things in their lives. It's enjoyment of
their life. It's satisfaction with their
activities and accomplishments. And most
importantly, it's a sense of the meaning
of their existence, the meaning of life.
And that last pillar, that last
macronutrient of happiness, meaning
actually lies behind the problems that
we see today. When I'm looking at a
large group of people and I see a big
unhappiness problem, I'm going to look
for a barrier to one of those three
things, enjoyment, satisfaction, and
meaning. When I'm working with a an
executive or or just anybody for that
matter, I'm going to find a blockage.
And that's what we find with people,
especially under 30 years old today is a
lack of a sense of the meaning of their
lives. While they're looking for the
meaning of their lives, they're doing
all sorts of counterproductive things
like scrolling on their phones, etc. But
technology is not the root. technology
is a is a is part of the doom loop of
meaning which is actually leading to the
mental health crisis that we see today.
Well, let's talk about a book that you
actually co-wrote with Oprah. It's
called Build the Life You Want: The Art
and Science of Getting Happier. And you
say happiness is actually something that
you need to work at. What is the first
step toward that happiness journey?
Well, to begin with, happiness, pure
happiness is not a is not a goal that we
that's that's that's that we can
reliably actually try to hit in our
lives. On the contrary, we have negative
emotions for a reason. We have negative
experiences as part of an ordinary life.
And so, the first thing that I teach my
students is you can't be perfectly
happy. Don't say I want to be happy. Say
I want to be happier. And the way to do
that is by looking, for example, at the
formula that we just laid out and
getting strategies and habits in your
life to get more enjoyment,
satisfaction, and meaning. Is there
anything that you learned from Oprah
about being happy and that experience of
writing the book with her?
Oh my goodness. Yeah. What a wonderful
friend she has become over the last few
years. And what I've learned from Oprah,
it's funny because in my work I have the
opportunity to work with a lot of people
in public life. People with huge media
personas, for example, and and they're
generally different in public than they
are in private. Um it's necessarily I
mean you have a private life and you
have a public life. Oprah is the same
person. And this is part of her formula
for happiness that we can actually all
learn something from. The reason that as
she sees it, she enjoys a lot of the
world's earthly rewards of, you know, of
money and and and and power and the
admiration of millions and billions of
people around the world. She sees that
that has been granted to her as an
opportunity to lift other people up. And
as such, she has a peace about her. So
on the days when I'm a little bit
stressed out and anxious, sometimes I'll
text Oprah. So, and it helps me because
she's the kind of person that I would
like to be more well, I'd like to be
more like her. Well, it's incredible
that two of you have this book that you
co-wrote together. I want to ask you
about something that you raised,
Professor Brooks, which is this issue of
technology, of social media. You heard
me talking to Congressman Kennedy about
it, to Dr. Murthy about it as well. The
average internet user in the United
States, I can't believe this, will end
up spending about 20 years online across
the course of their adult life. It's
hard to process that. Is there a way to
be online and to be happy?
There is. But here's the basic formula
in any technology just not just the
internet not just any any sort of
computing or or or non-faceto-face
technology all the stuff that we have
around us if it's a complement to your
in-person relationships it's beneficial
if it's a substitute for your in-person
relationships it's a problem that's a
lot of what Dr. Murthy was talking
about, but that's the formula to think
about for your kids and your own life.
Is Zoom actually substituting for my
ability to be with people in person? Is
social media substituting for my real
friends? If the answer is yes, you have
a problem. On the other hand, if it's
making actually your your your
relationships richer, which means it has
to be within certain bounds, you can't
be doing it all day long, then it can
actually be part of a more rewarding
life and it won't turn into this doom
loop where I'm bored and I'm lonely, so
I turn to the internet. I turn to the
apps and that makes me more bored and
lonely. I can I can I have a harder time
finding the meaning of my life and down
and down it goes. That's like what what
Congressman Kennedy was talking about
with alcohol and drugs. Alcohol and
drugs are part of the doom loop in life.
But you got to know why you're using
first of all. Well, profound way to
think about it. In one of your columns
in the Atlantic, you cite a survey that
suggests that more than half of young
people actually say they want to be
influencers. And you write that that can
actually make you unhappier because to
be so focused on oneself is not
necessarily a healthy thing. What is
your advice to young people in that
space? How do you navigate that desire
if you want to be an influencer versus
the reality that it might not be the
best thing?
Well, understanding the truth is very
important about this. the the the the
truth of the matter is that we have we
have to understand ourselves as other
people see us, but we have to be looking
out and observing and experiencing our
own lives as well. And the more that
we're on our phones, the more
effectively we are looking in a mirror.
And there's a ton of evidence that shows
that when you're looking in the mirror,
you are not happy. You're less happy
because precisely you're focusing on
yourself. And so the mirror of it all is
the biggest problem that people actually
face. Being an influencer is like
standing in a mirror, you know, all day
long. And that's just the that's the
sort of the secret, the fast path to
depression and anxiety. Understanding
that is the key to it. When young people
actually understand what's going on in
their brains, which is a lot of what I
teach, I talk an awful lot about the
neuroscience of these problems. And when
they understand that that psychology is
biology, they have a lot more power. And
that's one of the things we need to
bring to the to the education for young
people today. You know, Professor
Brooks, you also talk about faith and
the fact that more and more Americans
say they actually don't follow any
organized religion, but you say it's not
necessarily about that, that you can
have faith, you can be faithful, and
that that can be an important component
to finding happiness as well.
That's true. And the the falling away of
faith and all things like faith is a
major contributor to this lack of life's
meaning, as you can imagine. Now, when I
talk about this with my students, I
acknowledge I'm a Catholic. It's the
most important thing in my life, as a
matter of fact. But really, what we're
talking about is transcendence away from
looking in the mirror, being bigger than
just you, standing in awe of the
universe. And there are many things that
people can actually do to get this
transcendence to to get away from the
tedium of the psycho drama of your own
life. You know, for some people that
means walking in nature or studying
great music or starting a meditation
practice or going back to church if
that's actually what is part of your own
life. But you need something. You need
to transcend your ordinary life because
if you won't, you'll be too much with
yourself and that's just not healthy.
Well, Professor Brooks, it's such
important information, such an important
part of this broader conversation. Thank
you so much for being here today. We
really appreciate it.
Thank you, Kristen. Thank you for your
attention to this. And we can solve this
problem. We just have to do it together.
All right. I appreciate it very much.
Thanks for watching. Stay updated about
breaking news and top stories on the NBC
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