This content explores the complexities of female friendships, offering insights into why they are often deeply rewarding yet challenging, and providing a framework for understanding and nurturing them.
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There's some research that finds that
40% of adults don't have a best friend.
Really? Why? I think it's because you
found that there's this framework. There
are three affinities, you call them,
that are necessary parts of female
friendship. I saw the same three things
keep popping up in terms of what women
highly prioritize in their friendships
and what makes them close. And so those
three things are I think this
conversation is important for the person
who finds themselves about to grow cold or
or
cynical to friendship itself because
when we talk about from an aerial view
needing more trust in community from a
here. Hey, it's your friend Mel. I'm so
fired up that you're here. Welcome to
the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm so excited
about our topic. I'm so excited that
you're here with me. It's always an
honor to spend time with you and to be
together. And if you're a new listener,
I want to take a moment and welcome you
to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm
so glad you're here. And because you
made the time to listen to this
particular episode, here's what I know
about you. First of all, you probably
don't have a lot of time, but the fact
that you found time and made it to
listen to this means you value yourself
and you also want friendship. And I got
to tell you something. If you're here
listening to this because someone
forwarded this to you, you know what
that tells me? It tells me that you have
people in your life that really love and
care about you. And the person who sent
this to you, they did it because they
want to be closer to you and they want
you to feel empowered in your life. And
you know what? That is exactly what a
good friend does. And this is a really
important area of my life, friendship
and friendship with other women that
I've gotten wrong for a very long time.
I've also gotten it wrong as a mom as I
was trying to counsel my daughters
through those really traumatic things
that can happen in middle school and
high school. And then I read a copy of
this book that I'm holding right now
called Fighting for Friendship: The
Science and Art of Conflict and
Connecting in Women's Relationships. and
I learned so much. This is the essential
guidelines to creating and keeping
female friendship alive in your life.
So, I called up the author. Her name is
Danielle Byer Jackson. She's
best-selling author. She's also the
director of the Women's Relational
Health Institute. She lectures around
the United States on the topic of
friendship. And she is here today to
take away the mystery and the drama and
break down why female friendship
matters. She's going to share the
unspoken challenges of female
friendships, the differences between
male and female friendship, how to
navigate conflict and challenges, and
even when you need to let go of the
friendship that no longer serves you.
And also, you're going to learn how do
you bring up something that bothers you?
Like, how do you deal with a friend
who's controlling, possessive, jealous?
How do you deal with yourself when you
start being like that in friendship? I
know I've been that way. All of these
experiences are normal. And the good
news is it's not you. You got to
understand the research. And once you
do, you're going to also realize there's
something you can do because you deserve
amazing female friends. And today you're
going to get the road map to creating
them. So please help me welcome Danielle
Byer Jackson to the Mel Robbins podcast.
So Danielle, I am so excited you're
here. Welcome to the Mel Robbins
Podcast. Thank you for having me. This
is awesome. Oh, I have so much to learn
from you. I I feel like I'm about to get
a therapy session that is going to help me
me
understand my past and struggling with
female friendship and as a mom watching
my daughters struggle with female
friendship. And so, I am just thrilled
you're here. I'm thrilled to dig into
your amazing book, Fighting for Our
Friendships: The Science and Art of
Conflict and Connection in Women's
Relationships. Here's where I want to
start. I'd love to have you talk to the
person who is with us right now. They've
either hit play this episode and taken
us on a walk or you and I are in their
car or at work or in their kitchen as
they've got their earbuds in. And I'd
love for you to tell the person
listening what might change about their
life and their friendships and how they
feel about themselves if they take
everything that you're about to share
with us to heart and they apply it to
their life. I think that by the time
they're done listening or watching it,
they feel instantly more confident um
less alone about any secret private
struggles um that they're experiencing
in their friendships. And I'm hoping
that it increases their level of
optimism about all that is available to
them in friendship. That's what I'm
really hoping for uh by the time that
we're done with this conversation. You
know, one of the things that I felt
after reading your book is I felt like I
understood myself better. I felt
validated and seen in terms of the
struggles that I had making friends when
I was in middle school and high school
and college keeping friends. And so I'm
just super excited about this
conversation because especially talking
about that tension and frustration,
that thing that we can't quite put our
finger on. Why are girls mean? Why is it
hard to connect with women? Why do
friends come in and out of my life? Do I
need to have a breakup? Like what is up
with the tension? Why do I miss people
that I'm no longer friends with? I can't
wait to unpack this. And where I want to
start is you have such an interesting
career. How on earth did you find
yourself in a career where you're
writing books, researching, and teaching
about female friendship? Um, first let
me say that becoming a friendship coach
was certainly not on my vision board
when I was 10. Okay. Definitely
something I fell into. I actually
started as a high school English teacher
and so I had 10th and 12th graders who I
was teaching and I noticed that between
classes and after school the number one
thing the girls wanted to talk to me
about was friendship stuff. So I didn't
realize that at the time I was kind of
unofficially coaching them through their
weird awkward friendship drama. And so
the classroom was kind of the first
place where I saw how issues of
connection and belonging directly impact
everything else. uh their attendance
because you're not even coming to school
if you don't feel like you belong
somewhere. Um their confidence, their
academic performance, their mood, all
related back to whether or not they felt
like they had people at school. And so I
did that for about six years and became
the academic chair. And then I left and
I got into the world of public
relations. And I always joke that I made
the foolish mistake of thinking, you
know, I'm leaving that teenage drama
behind because I'm working with adult
women, you know. And it wasn't long
before I realized that despite the fact
that these women were charismatic, high
achieving extroverts, they too were
secretly dealing with friendship stuff.
And so I just thought, wow, at every
stage of womanhood, we're trying to
figure out how do I better relate to the
women around me. It's not an age thing.
It it feels like the great equalizer. It
doesn't matter your background or or
generation. And so for the past seven
years, uh, I've been leveraging my
background in education to study what
the research has to say about women's
cooperation, communication, and
conflict. So, are women and men's
friendships different? They are. They
are. First, I want to say because I know
when we get into like the differences
between genders, we're all looking for
the same thing. We all want support. We
want to have a good time. We want people
who offer a sense of ease to our lives.
But the research continues to show that
there are some differences. I think the
main theme I've seen in the research is
in terms of intimacy of these
friendships. Very different. Um, with
women, they do experience more depth and
platonic intimacy than men tend to in
their samesex friendships. Um, women
tend to be more diatic. So, we're one to
one, which counts diatic. What is that
word? You're an English teacher, so I'm
going to have to like be like, "Okay,
wait, what?" So, like a d y a diet. So,
one, we tend to couple off and that
accounts for that depth. we experience,
right? Because we're in this private
intimate bolt, the two of us. Whereas
men tend to congregate in larger groups.
They tend to collect a a bunch of casual
friendships. And when you're in a big
group, it affords you a certain level of
anonymity. Okay? When I've got all the
guys in the room, right? Um women also
in our conversations, we are more likely
than men to talk about things like our
mental and physical health and family,
things like that. That tends to center
the self, those conversations. But men
are more likely than women to talk about
current events in sports which
desenterers self. So even in our
conversations it's very intimate. And
then they find that women tend to
integrate their friends into their lives
to the degree of a sibling men to the
degree of a cousin. And so you know I'm
certainly not saying that men don't also
experience these deep friendships. They
do. But more often than not you'll see
that with women. You just threw so much
at us based on the research that made
perfect sense. And if you're listening
and you're a guy and you've always
wondered, why does my partner or my
girlfriend have so much drama? Why did
my sister have so many problems? There
was so much in what you just shared with
us. Like even just the fact that it's
true. Like if I think about my brother
or my husband or my son, they do kind of
just travel in groups. Mhm. And like if
I think about myself, it's like since
the history of time, I've been searching
for that best friend. I've been pairing
off into one person. And I'm sure we're
going to dig into this. But even just
understanding that the research is
really bearing out that we tend to go
onetoone and the men and boys in our
life tend to operate in groups. And what
you just said I thought was genius about
how if you're in a group, there is a bit
of anonymity. But if you're with just
one person or small groups of people
that you feel this deep sense of
belonging to, there's a lot more
vulnerability and a lot more that seems
to be at stake. I know I've certainly
felt that. Yeah. It's it's hard to to
hide when it's me and you at coffee and
it's very reciprocal if it's just you
and I. You know, you talk, I talk.
there's no uh um confusion around whose
turn it is to share. I am more deeply
known here. I am more accountable here
because it's me and you. And I think
that's also why we kind of see that
running joke, you know, where your
husband comes home from hanging out with
the boys and you're like, "Oh my gosh,
so did they have the baby? Why did they
divorce?" And he's like, "Oh, I don't
know. I didn't ask." You know, so it's
like a running joke, but there's some
truth to that. Well, and you also said
this thing about how male relationships,
friendships tend to be more like a
cousin. Yeah. And your relationship with
the girls or women in your life is more
like a sibling. And sisters fight.
That's right. And sisters have drama.
That's right. And yet there's a big
difference between what happens with
your sister and what happens when
there's tension or jealousy or
possessiveness with a friend. You know,
one of the things that you've researched
that I'd like to start with is that you
found that there's this framework. There
are three affinities you call them that
are necessary parts of female
friendship. So can you explain that?
Yes. So I call it the three affinities
of female friendship. And I got really
excited when I found this because I
started to notice that it didn't matter
which discipline I was looking at uh
anthropology, sociology, psychology. I
kept seeing these themes emerge and I
got really excited because I saw the
same three things keep popping up in
terms of what women highly prioritize in
their friendships and what makes them
close. And by extension, if these three
things are not there, it's probably the
reason why there's a little tension, a
little conflict. And so those three
things are symmetry, support, and
secrecy. Symmetry, support, and secrecy.
Yes. So with symmetry, women really
value these feelings of sameness and
balance and reciprocity and
egalitarianism, okay? Where we're all
equal. We're the same. You are me. You
know, even if you go to a bar and you
see women talking, you're overhearing
them say, you know, me too. Oh my god,
same. Me too. So thriving on that, I am
you. You are me. Um, and then when that
symmetry shifts or we start to sense
like, oh, we're on different paths or
she's maybe not like me. that tension of
of we're not in the same lane. What's
going on here? Um, so symmetry is really
powerful. Um, and that egalitarianism
piece and symmetry feeling like equals.
So if you have a woman who you feel like
she's starting to be judgy about your
parenting or your business choices. I
mean, the undertone or the subtext there
is that her choices are better, are
superior, right? She's coaching you or
talking down to you cuz we're supposed
to be we're the same. We're equals. But
does it also happen that it's not that
she's necessarily talking down to you,
but that you're also beating yourself up
because you're like, "Well, she's better
looking and you know, all everybody's
attracted to her or she's getting more
money than I am." And so you start to
feel like not only are we not equal, but
I'm now looking at you and your example
is a reason why I'm now beating myself
up and feeling 100%. And so much of this
is perception cuz maybe she's doing
nothing wrong, but because of things
happening in your life, you're
perceiving this imbalance, right? So
much of it is is subjective. Um, oh,
that was I was a walking friendship red
flag. You could have had an entire
section of this book called Melanie
Schneberger, which is a mouthful of a
name. That was my maiden name. I saw
everybody's a threat.
Like I I literally don't think I had
that symmetry in a lot of my
friendships. And I can see how if you
don't feel like we're in this
together, then it would create this
conflict and tension in your
relationship with somebody else. Sure.
Because how do I befriend the threat
that that doesn't even go together? So
seeing you as an extension of myself and
seeing women in general as an extension
of myself, I am you. You are me. You're
not my competition. I mean, it directly
impacts the way that we engage with our
friendships. So, that that symmetry
piece is really important. Uh, and then
we have support. You know, there's some
research that tells us that the number
one thing women look for in their
samesex friendships is emotional
support. So, that means if there's
nothing else, I expect you have my back.
I expect some shows of solidarity, some
gestures of of emotional help. Um, what
makes that tricky is we so often don't
uh articulate what support looks like.
because I think that as another woman,
you ought to know. I shouldn't have to
say it. You know, that will certainly
make things complicated. Every time you
say something, I'm thinking about a
dynamic that's negative with a former
friend or something that I did because
even when you said that sentence about
support, I mean, how many times have we
sat alone and then when a friend comes
to you and is like, I didn't even know
you were struggling. You're like, well,
you should have, you know, you just kind
of feel this sense of, well, you should
have known. Yeah. But you never said
anything. I wonder how much of that is,
you know how they say women have that
sixth sense. If I believe that to be
true, that women's intuition, which I
think we do have, do I believe that you
should be picking up my cues? Cuz we
have that intuition. So, should I have
to say the thing? And I think a lot of
us subscribe to the idea that if we are
close, me having to say what I want
detracts from the closeness we're
supposed to have. So you just knowing it
without me saying it is evidence of how
much you get me. But we don't expect
that in any other relational context. So
it just feels really unfair that your
friend should be mind readers, but
everybody else you anticipate needing to
communicate what you need. And so I I
think if we can keep in mind that you'll
never get to a point of closeness that
transcends a need to communicate, you're
going to have to say the thing. Well, I
also just keep I don't know why the word
silent treatment is coming up. Yeah. But
I feel as though if a woman feels like
she's not getting the support that she
deserves from another female friend, one
of the go-to immature behaviors and
behaviors that create conflict and
tension is you withdraw.
And in your research, did you see a lot
of that like the the the tendency to pull
pull
back sort of silently expecting that
somebody's then going to come and ask
you what's wrong so you get the support
and the attention that you want? Oh,
absolutely. Um whether that's because we
don't know how to articulate it, whether
it's because we have this belief that I
shouldn't have to say it. She ought to
pick up on the cues. I do see that um
emotional distance followed by physical
distance. I'm calling you less. I'm
initiating less because I'm so turned
off uh by that thing you failed to do.
I'm now silently stacking offenses. And
that's why you have so many of us who
are like, I don't know. She kind of cut
me off. I don't really know what I did
because I'm not going to announce it.
I've just been saving that up, right?
And I expect that you ought to know I
shouldn't have to say that. It just kind
of compounds the issue when we do that.
As you're listening to Danielle right
now, you're probably thinking of people
in your life, friendships where this has
happened where you're recognizing that
either the first affinity, which is
symmetry, disappeared, or something
shifted it and the person no longer
became same. I'm in it, too. and whether
you viewed them as a threat or they
started talking down to you that that
frenommy thing starts to come into play.
And then I certainly am experiencing as
you're talking about support and the
sense that well I'm not getting the
support and you should know what I need
because we've been in this close
one-on-one relationship and then you
start to resent the person so you pull
away. And it's so hard because if you
ask anyone, we all think we're giving
adequate support. Like, who among us is
going to say, "Yeah, I don't support my
friends." We all think we're doing a
good job. So, there's obviously a gap
here. When there's those of us who are
walking around feeling um a lack of
support, it can get really tricky. Um
and then that third affinity is secrecy.
So, this doesn't necessarily speak to
like literal secrets, but the essence of
that. So feeling like you and I are in
this mutually exclusive vault where we
engage in self-disclosure. I share you
share because that is the glue of
women's friendship is sharing. And as
soon as I start to have tension with
you, I share less because me sharing and
how much you know of me is probably
indicative of how close we are, right?
And then when there's tension, I'm
sharing less. um or if I feel like
you've shared outside of the vault, if
you're telling personal things to
somebody else, I begin to question our
closeness, I begin to question, well, do
you not trust me? And so, you know, of
course, intellectually, I know you can
have other friends, but there's
something around that sharing piece. If
you tell somebody else first about the
promotion, the pregnancy, the health
scare, I do question, well, are we close
because you didn't bring it here in the
vault, right? I've even heard women who
um are disappointed when the friend just
doesn't share. You feel like I'm the
only one pouring into this. She never
tells me anything about herself. So,
that really is the glue of women's
friendship is that mutual
self-disclosure. When I was reading your
book and I read Secrecy is one of these
affinities of a female friendship that
make it either very positive or very
negative. I was like, secrecy? Wait,
what? And then all of a sudden I
realized, wait a minute, I to the women
I feel the closest to, it's we always
joke, you'll be my best friend forever
because you know too much about me
otherwise I'd have to kill you. You know
what I'm saying? Um,
but there have also been moments where
close friends of mine have been
struggling and I find out six weeks
later that something has been going on
and my first reaction is anger that you
didn't let me know. Yeah. Why am I
hearing this from somebody else? And so
I realized I never thought about it in
the context of it makes you question how
close you actually are. It makes you
question whether or not this person
trusts you, whether or not this person
feels that you're somebody that they can
lean on. And so it makes perfect sense,
but it's so counterintuitive. Yeah.
Information is kind of like the currency
uh in our relationships. Um, and it's
kind of the thing that we start doing as
soon as there is tension is I share
less, right? If I start to feel like, I
don't know, things have been weird, I'm
probably not sharing things with you.
And so, I think as much as we can
remember, if we're trying to keep the
friendship strong, as much as we can
remember, I've got to share things about
myself. Uh, I've heard women who um
maybe were raised with different
cultures who feel like sometimes that's
counterintuitive because there's a sense
of of pride or respect or an expectation
that you don't share your business with
others. We don't do that. And so I can
honor that and respect that. But for um
the person who has that tendency or had
that cultural upbringing that you don't
share, you you keep that to yourself. I
would challenge that person to think
about the degree to which they feel
close to people in their life if they're
not doing that. Well, what I love about
this framework is that when you put it
in the context of all the other research
in terms of the trends and the
tendencies of how boys and guys connect,
whether it's in groups where you can be
a little bit more anonymous, things are
a little bit more casual, you're bonding
over the big thing, you're doing a lot
of stuff together versus women who tend
to bond over kind of intimate
conversations, one-on-one shared
experiences. You can see why if the
connection is grounded in those three
deeper things and you feel connected to
somebody because of this reciprocity so
to speak.
Why you start to have this very intense
feeling because we've all had it where
you've been super close friends or
you've been part of a friend group of of
women or girls and then suddenly you
feel like you're on the outside of it.
Totally. And it feels like a deep
betrayal and heartbreak. And you're not
quite sure why, but I think you
explained why because the intimacy that
is demanded in female friendships is
very different. And it's also the source
of all the conflict and the tension and
the friction that starts to happen.
Yeah. And I do think if a person finds
themsself on the outskirts or there's
been some kind of like this tectonic
shift that was happening slowly and
you're like things are different to kind
of look at those three things and see if
you can trace it back. Did somebody
perceive that there was a change and we
can no longer relate to one another. Is
someone secretly feeling like you didn't
support me? Is someone feeling like I
you know you've been sharing outside the
vault or you're not my person to share
with anymore? It's likely that you can
trace whatever your present conflict is
back to those three things. And you know
just because there is tension that
emerges in one of those domains doesn't
mean immediate dissolution of the
friendship you know that's information I
can use to know how to recalibrate or to
have a conversation so we can get back
to our equilibrium you know but
hopefully it's a good starting point for
people who are struggling to find that
language. Well, I also think with the
support piece, it's interesting because
when you go through a struggle in your
life, whether it's in a relationship or
a health scare or maybe you lose a job
or something's going on with one of your
kids, you tend to withdraw. And then you
do feel a little bit or at least I have
in periods of my life where I struggle
like what I'm going through is a burden
to other people and so I don't want to
share. And so there's those moments
where you withdraw because you actually
need support, but you're embarrassed or
you feel just the heaviness of it. You
don't want to talk about it, but then
your friends are left wondering where'd
you go? Yeah. Where'd you go? And so I
can see how each one of these factors,
it really gives you both something to
look at that makes it not personal, but
also something to look at it so you can
be more compassionate with other people
and you can be more compassionate with
yourself because everybody's changing
all the time and so is your life. Do you
have an opinion about friendship
breakups? Like do we need to actually
stop being friends with people? Well,
I'll tell you this. Uh we do have
friendships that end. I think we know
that intellectually like oh friends
don't last forever but when it happens
it becomes very difficult to make sense
of yes I see that we have a lot of shame
around that. I think we put a lot of
value on longevity in friendships. So
when it's over we start to think what's
wrong with me what did I do wrong that I
can't keep a friendship going. I always
encourage women to think about um if
you're feeling that shame over not being
able to make a friendship last. How do
you measure success in a friendship? Is
it one that never ends? Is it one where
we loved each other really well during
this time that we were friends? But
friendship breakups are are really
difficult and sometimes they do
dissolve. Why are they so difficult? I'm
thinking about a friend of mine that was
my most favorite human being when I was
in college and we even to this day have
matching tattoos and we had a very bad
breakup and this was over 30 years ago.
And I still think about her. Mhm. Is
that normal? Why am I doing that? cuz I
don't think about the boyfriends that I
had huge breakups with and they were
inside me for crying out loud and you
know I like had the love like drug
inside of us like
why is it the breakup with a female
friend cuz my husband has grown distant
from people he's had breakups with
people he doesn't think about them
why do we do this okay so am I normal
Danielle that's what I'm asking you
uh you are you are I have some of those
too and I kind of maybe see them as like
my ones that got away maybe like a
platonic uh could we have worked that
out and I still see things and it makes
me think of her. Um my theory is that
because of how deeply we integrate our
women friends into our lives, naturally
I'm still thinking about you when that's
over, right? Um and there are even some
theories that find that women's
relationships become a part of their
self-concept. So how I see myself is
largely through the lens of how you see
and experience me. And if you think that
I am interesting and funny and and
lovable um and then that friendship ends
or you elected to leave, I'm questioning
am I still interesting and lovable and
funny if she would leave me? Um and so I
think it's natural to still uh grieve
over losing friends, to still be
confused about what went wrong, what we
could have done differently, and then
also have that kind of influence the way
we engage in friendships moving forward.
Right? If you have a friend who told you
you're just too much, M am I going into
new friendships a little tapered down
cuz I don't want to be too much, you
know. So it does leave a lasting
impression when we when we have
friendships with other women that end.
You made me have a bit of a breakthrough
and epiphany about this topic. As I was
listening to you and I was thinking
about my friend, it made me sad about
who I was at that period in my life and
the fact that
she distanced
herself and it reminds me that I was not
in a great place and I was not a good friend.
friend.
And because it's unresolved, it keeps
that part of me in some way kind of
alive inside me. Does that make sense?
Totally. And that if she had come back
into my life, it sort of feels like it
helps with the acceptance that you've
grown as a person. And that's why I also
feel like I probably hold on to this a
little bit. That I have a lot of regrets
about how I acted. I was like that
clingy, possessive, lying, jealous
friend. Oh my god, thank God you and I
didn't know each other back then. And
I'm a different person. Yeah. And so
there's something about romantic
relationships that I'm able to forgive
myself and move on, but when a
friendship ends, you don't really quite
ever replace somebody in that category
in that same way. Do you know what I
mean? Yeah, totally. Uh, you know, I
think with romantic breakups as well,
it's so easy to dismiss it as, well,
that wasn't my person. I think that
helps us to be able to move on. You also
kind of know going into a romantic
relationship, this might not work out,
you know, let's just see. That's so
true. But you're rarely expecting or
considering the end at the beginning of
friendship. I just know that I like you,
so let's get this thing going. I'm not
prepared or even considering an ending.
And I think that makes it even more
disruptive um when it happens. Um and
then like I said, because it's so
integrated into our lives, it becomes
difficult sometimes to move forward.
What I love about your book, Fighting
for Our Friendships, is that you not
only go straight at this and you unpack
all the things that we or I'll speak for
myself, I got profoundly wrong about
navigating female friendships. But what
I also love is that the same three-part
framework that you say is present for
all deep connections between girls and
women, it also explains what's missing
when you start to feel conflict and
frustration. And so, let's go to
conflict. Let's talk about all of the
things that are really challenging about
female friendships. And you know, if I
turn to page 44 in your
book, there's this concept that you talk
about. I mean, we even have a term for
it, former friendships.
I don't think I'd ever hear my son or my
husband say former friendships. And yet,
when I read your list, the roommate
turned bestie that I outgrew. Mhm. The
college friend who phased me out when
she got a boyfriend. Oh, that was me.
co-orker bestie who disappears when you
start working somewhere else. My mom
friend who I grew close to but
eventually lost trust in the friend I
had to release because she didn't reach
out enough. The church friend who cut me
off because I didn't reach out enough.
Mhm. I have every one of those or I've
been that. Yeah. Why is this a
phenomenon? There is research that shows
that girls, young girls, um, have more
former friendships than boys. But I want
to say this because I know it's tempting
for some people to hear that and say,
"Well, yeah, because girls are petty."
Well, yeah, because girls are always
upset about something. And I hear that a
lot from men and women, sadly. Here's my
response to that. The research finds
that our friendships are deeper, but
that they do dissolve at a faster rate.
Really? Mhm. Why? I don't think that's
because we just always want to be in
some drama. I think it's because if you
are so deeply integrated into my life as
my friend, okay, we're sharing
resources, you're helping me raise my
children, you're giving me career
advice, like you're in this with me,
right? Then yeah, it increases the
chances that there might be some
friction cuz you're all up in my
business. Yeah. Okay. I'm less likely to
fall out with somebody who I'm not even
close to. So, if men are keeping their
friends kind of at a distance and we
check in three times a year, you
probably aren't having fallouts because
you're not that up close. If you're in
my business as my female friend, there's
a higher chance that there is going to
be something that that goes wrong. So, I
can keep you at arms length and be your
best friend for 20 years, no problem,
because I'm checking in once a quarter.
Or when we go play basketball, you know,
I'm not talking about details of my
life. We could be best friends all day,
right? So there is a risk in having
somebody who's so deeply close to you.
Uh but then we've got to get to the
business of, you know, trying to
navigate that when those conflicts
arise. You know, one of the things that
I keep thinking about is that
friendships don't end. They just sort of
come in and out and they're flexible.
And it's helped me be less judgy of myself.
myself.
But it's interesting that the research
says that friendships for girls and
women dissolve faster and more often
than it do does for boys and men. And I
do think the missteps start to happen
when we're little and we're forming
friends for the first time because I'm
not sure anybody ever teaches you how to
make friends or why you need friends.
One question I have before we kind of go
backwards is why are women so jealous of
each other? Or at least why do
we why can you tell? Like guys might be
jealous of of some guy's car or his
house or the vacations or you know that
he's just a good dude that a lot of
people like, but you don't feel it.
You know, first I'll say that I don't
think um being competitive or envious is
exclusive to women. Uh we're all
competitive. We all get a little
envious. And I think it's because we use
our friends as a measure of our own
progress, you know. So, you're very
close in my proximity. So, it kind of
shows me, oh, are we having babies at
this rate? We're having how am I doing
with my with my money and my style. I'm
looking to my friends purely from a
sociological perspective to see am I on
track? Right? So, we're all feeling a
little like we're using our friends to
gauge how we're doing. Um, I think
what's so hard around envy that women
experience with one another, I do wonder
to what degree the patriarchy uh
influences that. If I'm hearing voices
telling me I need to look a certain way
and have a certain progress in my life
and my friends are in very close
proximity, I'm kind of projecting that
onto them. Um, if they're making certain
choices or making certain advances and
I'm not, I have them to look at to see
how I'm doing. Um, but I wonder also how
much room we have to express that
without looking like the jealous friend.
So, we harbor it secretly or we monitor.
Um, because I don't want to look like I
am jealous. So I keep it inside and that
comes out in terms of resentment or
shade or frenemies, right? Um so it does
become kind of kind of sticky. You know,
I want to build on that because I have a
theory about this. Okay. And especially
given that you were a English teacher in
a high school and you're a mom and I'm a
mom of two daughters and you have a
daughter. Here's my theory. So, if you
take it as fact that the average age
that a girl gets her period is the age
of 12, like that's a huge life-changing
event. And what happens when you get
your period, at least in today's world,
is it's like a very public event. It
seems like everybody knows in your
class. All the girls know, even the boys
know and your body starts to change and
you feel this loss of control that is
very public. And then there's an added
layer around the fact that what do
people say when you get your period?
You're 12 years old and what are the
first thing they say? Oh, well now
you're a woman. Oh, you're a woman now.
So you become sexualized and that also I
believe in a very subconscious and
subtle but not so subtle way changes
your relationship to other women. And I
personally believe that two things
happen. Number one, it's been very well
researched as you know how girls
confidence drops off a cliff between the
age of 12 and 14. The age of 12, boys
and girls have the exact same levels of
confidence. By the age of 14, girls
experience a 46% drop in confidence. But
check out what they're also saying in
this research about friends. That 60% of
girls by the age of
14 are not confident that they can make
new friends. Here's a girl who's 18,
this would have been somebody in your
English class. I'm not confident in
making friends because I'm afraid a
afraid of making mistake. I feel like
everybody's so smart and pretty and I'm
just this ugly girl without friends. I
feel that if I acted like my true self
that no one would like me. And there's
this memory that I have of being in
middle school. And it's kind of when the
dances start and I don't know if it's
like this now. I mean, I'm literally
talking 40 years ago. But when the slow
songs would
start, there's this phenomenon where the
guys pick a girl to dance with. And it's
in that
moment that you start to see that there
are girls that get all the
attention. And I know in those moments,
I literally hated my best friends
because they were getting picked and I
wasn't. And I I feel like there is
something that happens
then that
really in many ways makes you feel like
you're against the other girls in
competition for something other than
grades, other than sports. It's this
social and sexual status that feels
largely out of your control. Yeah. At
least that's what I felt. And I'm just
wondering if you have any thoughts about
that. There are researchers that lean
into intraexual competition. What does
that mean? What's interexual? When you
have women who are vying for the
attention of males and some would argue
that it's a purely evolutionary thing
that when you do, you know, begin to
menrate and your your body is now
showing and developing that that does
now attract the attention of males. Um,
so I could see that being the reason why
during that middle school period, we
feel like something's shifting,
something's going on. Um, you know, I
even talked to a woman, her name is Dr.
Hannah Bradshaw, and we even looked at,
you know, guys girls versus girls girls.
And she also said that during that
stage, um, how women perceive each
other, maybe we start treating her
differently if she does draw the
attention of men and start hanging out
with them. But she finds that it's a
birectional relationship that you know
girls who are around boys and boys come
sniffing around and they're hanging out.
We find ourselves looking at the girl
like oof who does she think she is
because she's around these males. But if
you ask the girl why she's hanging out
with males all the time. She'll say that
she's over there because the girls are
mistreating her. So it's a sort of
refuge and protection. So it's kind of
like this this thing that continues to
emerge in a cycle. And I definitely see
that too. Well, it's an important thing
to talk about because I think these
feelings are very normal and when you
don't know what to do with them, you
either aim them at yourself or you aim
them at the other person. The other
thing I wanted to talk about related to
middle school is that, you know, this
elementary innocence and kind of
navigating friendship and everybody's
trying to figure it out. We're all in it
together. What the heck is that
phenomenon that happens in middle school
where everybody's like, I need a BFF.
were Biffles and you start to become
defined by oh well Danielle is Susan's
best friend and even the seeking out of
that alliance becomes something that is
very prominent for girls that age but I
don't see it happening in the same way
for guys what is that about I think that
goes back to a little bit of what we
said earlier around guys just collecting
just casual relationships being on a
squad it's not really closer are
meaningful, but they're on a squad. But
we even uh kind of promote the idea to
young girls. We'll even ask them from a
young age, is that your best friend? Is
that your bestie? Do you want something
for your best friend? And we've got the
the chains with like the hearts, you
know, from Claire's. It's like best
friend. So, from the very beginning
being trained to identify who that one
person is. And I've also heard it said
that, you know, relationships are a
woman's primary resource. And I wonder
if it's kind of like this social
currency, especially at that age, is how
many friends do you have? And we see the
girl with lots of friends and what do I,
you know, what determinations do I begin
to make about her? She must be likable
and cool. You know, so the girl who's
got a lot of friends, but especially if
you have a bestie because that means you
matter. This is your alliance. You have
somebody um who sees you as important.
Um and so that best friend phenomenon I
definitely see emerge at that stage.
What would you say to the person who's
listening to you right now?
who either
experienced not having a best friend or
not feeling like they were part of a
good friend group or they're seeing
somebody that they care about
experiencing it right now. I would tell
that woman
um you are not alone. There's some
research that finds that 40% of adults
don't have a best friend. So there's a
lot of people out here who don't have
that maybe in this particular season of
their life. It doesn't make you any less
important um or worthy or lovable to not
have that one person. And if you don't,
ask yourself if you can get all the
things you need from the collective
rather than the singular. I think it's a
romantic notion, this idea of the one
person who offers you multiple things.
She's your mom friend, your happy hour
buddy. It's very cool when that one
person satisfies all those things. But
until maybe you find that person, can
you find that from the collective from
multiple people? You're getting
laughter. You're getting growth
opportunities. You're sharing resources.
Are you getting that from the village?
Um because maybe right now that's more
important than having the one person who
satisfies all the things. And so I I
just need that woman to know you are not
alone. There are so many people who are
in the same boat. and to resist the urge
to internalize that and to wonder what's
wrong with you because you don't have
that right now. And if you're a parent
or you're just worried about a girl or a
young woman who feels like she's just
been iced out of her friend group. I I
remember when our daughters were in high
school of one of my close close friends,
her daughter was going through something
and her friend group dropped her.
And I just remember how many tears her
mother and I had over what do you do? I
mean, this kid has been basically, you
know, the words feel so dramatic. Kicked
out of,
excluded, just dropped by a friend
group. What would you say to a person
that feels like that's just happened to
them? It's really hard, especially as a
parent, to not want to drive up to that
school and to find those girls and be
like, "What the heck is your problem?"
It's hard. So, you're saying we
shouldn't text them or their parents or
get involved. Is that what you're
saying? Yeah. No, it's hard, right?
Especially as a mama bear, you're like,
I want my girl to feel confident and to
to belong and how dare people reject
her. That is painful and it's painful to
watch your babies go through anything,
you know, in the meantime because we,
you know, a lot of times we talk about
handling what you can control. That is
hurtful. And there's even research that
finds that being rejected socially uh
lights up the same parts of your brain
as experiencing physical pain. So, you
know, she's not being dramatic. It is
hurtful to not have people. And it's
even worse sometimes when you don't know
what you did wrong. And so like what do
you do or what should you say or do you
not say anything at all? Do you just
like give the person space to grieve? Do
you acknowledge it like I I didn't I
don't know what to do. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
one of the things we can do is is to
share with that young woman who's in
that situation is what she can do right
now is to continue to show up, let's say
in this situation at school, to show up
to school to be kind to others, to
confidently go about her day and to have
connections with people. and if she
feels comfortable going to one of the
young women who she trusts most in the
group cuz sometimes we feel like it's us
versus this large capital G group. So go
to a person in the group who you trust
most and say hey you know I'm noticing
we're not talking as much what's going
on right and to ask and at that point
they're responsible for letting us know
what it is or not but if there are
people they would let us know if they
were your people they wouldn't take
pleasure in isolating you if they were
your people they'd call you in and not
push you out and so it could be a good
exercise for her uh in terms of
identifying who your people are and so
suffering any kind of loss
is really painful. And like we said,
especially women's friendships cuz we're
so deep. But these are not your people.
And it and it's tricky because you
think, "But no, mom, they are. Those are
my girls." But your people would never
take delight in pushing you out,
rejecting you, watching you agonize over
what you did wrong, and not coming to
relief some of that confusion and
distress. They're not your people. I had
my one of our daughters use this term a
ladder and she was remarking about how
she's in this period of her life and she
lives in a part of the world and is in
an industry where she says that it's
like you're with your people on a
certain rung. Mhm. And we're all in it
together and we commiserate and we're
bonded and we're kind of sort of
supporting one another. But then the
second somebody goes to the next rung in
the ladder either in this city in a
social climbing group or in this
industry and you get some success. It's
like the rung that you were with
disappears. Yeah. And even seeing that
that somebody that you thought that you
were close with and next thing you know
you're part of a bigger group and next
thing you know you're on the outside but
they're staying on the inside. That is a
painful thing cuz you lose the group and
you lose the person that you were close
to before the group. 100%. Yeah, that is
really painful. I think those are the
moments where those three affinities of
female friendship come out to play. Um
when we no longer feel the same, when we
begin to take different priorities,
different values emerge, and even though
I have a history with you, an affection
for you, it's just not working out. Uh,
I think sometimes it's even easier to
release friendships when we can easily
identify a villain. It It feels easier
when you betray me. I'm I'm upset, but
it's easier to let go. It's harder to
let go when I still like you. But things
have shifted and it's simply not
compatible despite my desire to stay in
relationship with you. Might be even
more painful because I can't make sense
of it. And I don't know why we just
don't work, but we don't. And so again,
I think intellectually we know that
friendships dissolve, but it is really
hard when it happens in real life. I
think you just actually answered it. I
think one of the reasons
why there is a lot of frenommy and
conflict and jealousy is because the
process of not feeling as close to a
friend is really confusing and painful.
And so turning somebody into a villain
and blaming their behavior
is I think in many ways your
subconscious attempt to actually cut off
the pain that you're feeling because you
can't explain it. If it's just we're
just growing apart that doesn't feel as
complete as they asked me out, she's now
like think she's better than me. Mhm.
That is, I think, something that we do
to process that confusing feeling that I
used to be close to you and now we're
just not and I don't know what to do
with it because I miss that closeness
and this isn't making sense. So, I'm
going to just leverage some anger and
some judgment here. What do you do when
you're jealous of your friends? Yes.
Okay. This is a big one. So, first uh I
like to look at the difference between
envy and jealousy because I know
sometimes we use them synonymously. So,
the way I kind of separate the two is
that envy involves two people and
jealousy involves three. So, if I'm
envious, that means you have something I
want. This is between you and me. And
jealousy means I'm scared I'm going to
lose what I have to this third party is
going to come in and take my friend. So,
like I'm jealous of my friend. Maybe a
new girl enters the the villa and I'm
like, "Oh, what's happening here?" Um,
but whenever we are feeling jealous or
envious of a friend, I think the first
thing to do if we're feeling envious is
to normalize that. And I know people say
that a lot, but something I've noticed,
especially with women, is that almost
feels like the cardinal sin. Like we can
talk about every other kind of
friendship conflict, but don't accuse me
of being jealous. I don't even want to
be in the proximity of being, you know,
an envious friend. Right? So, we've got
to normalize. If you have somebody you
love who's closely integrated into your
life and she starts to have things that
you kind of want for yourself that it's
normal to feel that way. And I think it
can signal to us our values and desires.
So if you, you know, get pregnant, I've
been wanting a baby and I'm like, oof, I
felt that pinch. Totally normal. Cuz
that's something you want for your life.
Totally normal. What do you do with it
though? I think the difference because
we try, we then avoid somebody, right?
Somebody's renovating their kitchen. I
now can't deal with being at your
beautiful house when I go home to my
hvel. Like, somebody's getting pregnant
and I just had a miscarriage. I don't
want to be near you. You know, somebody
just got engaged and I just broke off a
relationship of two years. I don't want
to be near you. And I struggled with
this profoundly. I wanted to be happy
for my friends. I wanted to celebrate
and be able to authentically feel joy
for somebody else. And there are moments
in my life where I could
not access it. Yeah. I love the honesty
in that to say I noticed that I couldn't
have joy for somebody else because the
lack in my life ran so deep that it went
beyond the joy I was able to muster up
for my own friend. And then the shame
you feel sometimes for that. This is my
friend. I can't even be happy for my
friend. What's wrong with me? So I think
it helps to identify, okay, this is
normal. Then I think the next step
becomes working through that. Sometimes
privately and sometimes with our friend
depending on how close we are. And
here's what I mean. Um if I'm noticing
gosh when I'm sharing space with her I
notice myself maybe making passive
aggressive remarks or I've got to get a
hold on that because now it's messing up
my ability to show up as a good friend
because this thing runs so deep. So I
need to go and look at what's that
about? Do I need to remind myself that
there's no comparison and life is not
linear and this is her path and and my
path and things will happen for me. Do I
need to uh evaluate the degree to which
I'm operating with a fixed mindset
because her having is not a sign of me
lacking. It's just her having and what's
available to her is equally available to
me and the timing is just different.
Right? I might need to go and coach
myself through that so I can be a good
friend around her. If it is something
deeply tender like infertility and
things like that which I see I've seen
women who have expressed to a friend,
you know, I I love this for you. I'm
happy for you. And they can share
certain boundaries. Hey, I don't know if
I'll be able to um make it to the baby
shower, but I am sending you a little
something, girl, cuz I I want your
little one to have this, right? And
having friends who can hold space for
that. You know, I had a friend um share
with me her her uh child was going
through very very significant and
difficult mental health challenges. And
she said to me, and I will always
respect and admire her for this. Mh. She
said, "I'm so happy for you, but I am
pulling back on our friend group because
every time I see one of your kids moving
through life and hitting these
milestones of graduating or going to
prom, it is such a painful reminder that
my child cannot right now." M
and having
her say that instead of her forcing
herself to show up and put on a fake
smile, which of course then you just
feel totally as this real weird
conflict. And I think we do that a lot.
I think that is something where you said
it, your lack is so big or the struggle
that you're in is so big you can't
actually authentically access the joy or
happiness to express for somebody else.
That is a normal thing that happens to
us. And being able to say, "I love you
and I wish I could show up and I can't,
but no, I'm still cheering for you." And
I haven't done that in my life, but this
person in my life did. And I was like,
"Wow, I totally understand this now and
I feel closer to you." Right. And I
think we're afraid to admit these things
because we're going to be shunned. And
it's the opposite that happens.
Danielle, how do you address a friend
who just disappoints you? Whether it's
in the category of not offering support
like you know you experience a loss of a
family member and they don't show up.
They missed your wedding or they miss your
your
birthday. They hated your boyfriend or
your girlfriend or they currently do and
you're aware of it. They're not happy
for you when you get that raise or
you're able to buy your dream car. What
do you do in those moments where your
friend's behavior or energy or attitude
or lack thereof is disappointing? Yeah.
Um so we are going to be disappointed by
our friends because they are fallible
regular people, right? Um so I think
making room for that upfront is helpful.
My friends are going to let me down. I
know that I would like to think of
myself as a good friend and I have good
girlfriends who could say, "Yeah,
Danielle disappointed me that day with
what she said or, you know, so I'm
thankful for their grace." But I think a
couple things to evaluate when that does
happen um are the um severity of it. How
big was the disappointment? Right? Uh
the consistency of it. Is my friend
always letting me down in this way?
Right? A lot of times disappointment
comes from unmet expectations. Oh, you
have research about this actually on
page 45 of the book. Yes, you do. You've
got great research about this. Oh my
god. Let me read to you from your book.
This is on page 45. Another reason why
our friendships can be fragile,
especially compared to male friendships,
is because we have high expectations. A
review of 36 studies found that women
wanted more from their close
relationships than men did, especially
when it comes to reciprocity and
self-disclosure, which means we are
setting and expected to meet high
standards. And this means that we also
register more relational violations,
identifying more wrongs in our
friendships. One study researchers
observed college dorms to monitor the
number of roommate reassignment
requests, most of them came from women.
Yes. And so this research to me
suggests that we have these super high
expectations of people. A lot of times
we don't even tell them what they are.
And then when they don't meet our
expectations, the research bears out
that we literally are finding wrongs.
Yeah. Do you think that's part of the
problem? Absolutely. And that research
goes on to say that this is in both
romantic and platonic relationships,
have these higher expectations of what's
supposed to happen and identifying more
wrongs than a man might in our
relationships. Um, but there are some
things that we can do to kind of close
that gap. The first is how often are
these disappointments happening? M the
second is what are my expectations and
have I expressed them which we said
earlier a lot of people feel like but I
shouldn't have to sometimes you do and
then also can I communicate my
disappointment afterwards? You have
permission to say to a friend, yeah, I'm
kind of bummed cuz I thought you'd come
to my event last night and I was excited
to have you there. You have permission
to say that. And the right people will
express to you, oh my gosh, I had no
idea that it mattered that much.
Sometimes we underestimate how much the
thing meant to you. I thought that you
know you have events all the time. Why?
I didn't know that you care. So I'm more
interested in the response after you say
the thing, not just that the friend
disappointed you. Once I give you that
data and I say, "I thought you would
show up." Or, "When my dad passed, I
wanted you here. I didn't want the
texts. I wish you came and sat with me."
Yeah. How do they respond? What's next?
That's what I'm more interested in. Is
there an expression of regret? Is there
an effort to repair? Is this a moment to
help facilitate, oh, okay, now I have a
better understanding of what you're
looking for? That's what I'm more
concerned about as opposed to the friend
disappointed me. Um, and I think that
can help and maybe stop us from
prematurely ending some friendships.
Well, see, I think this is a lot of what
you also write about in your book is
that all of this conflict and these
moments that are normal and human and in
every friendship, it's a give and a
take. we both have a little bit of
responsibility here in terms of what's
happening that it's either an
opportunity for you to distance yourself
or an opportunity for you to lean in and
actually join in with somebody. And you
know, one of the things as I was really
researching the let them theory and I
know personally I have lived in fear of
disappointing people my whole life and
bent myself into knots to try to make
sure nobody's disappointed. Is that all
of a sudden it occurred to me, well,
isn't it a good thing if a friend is
disappointed that you didn't show up?
Doesn't that just mean they wanted you
there, right? Isn't that a sign that
somebody really cares about you and that
you matter versus what I turned it into
my whole life, which is somehow it's
some indictment against me? Like, if you
can look at it that way, if somebody
respects you enough to say, "I was
disappointed that you forgot my
birthday and they want to talk to you
about it." To me, that's a green flag in
a friendship. Absolutely. And you know,
unless of course you're like, you bet
that, you know, they're doing all that
stuff, but what are warning signs that a
friend is not or no longer good for you?
Um, one of the ones I like to lead with
is if you don't like who you are when
you're together.
I know I've been a part of friendships
where I am not acting like myself when
we're when we get together and I don't
know what prompts that. it like just
happens so stealthily, but when I'm with
other people, I enjoy who I am. I'm
proud of who I am. So, the first
indicator is you don't like who you are
when you're together. Another might be
after you're spending time together, you
find yourself totally
depleted. It is exhausting. Whether
she's super negative or you find
yourself um doing the mental labor of
performing and you feel like you can
finally relax, right? Um that could be a
sign that it's not good for you. If you
feel like um certain goals you have for
yourself are being delayed by being in
this friendship, whatever that looks
like for you. I know sometimes we have
friends who are like, "You're not like
you used to be. You used to be fine with
this. You used to be and there are
things I want to do with my life, new directions and goals that I have, but I
directions and goals that I have, but I feel like I'd be betraying my friends by
feel like I'd be betraying my friends by pursuing these new goals that I have for
pursuing these new goals that I have for myself." That could be something to look
myself." That could be something to look at as well. And then the last thing I'll
at as well. And then the last thing I'll say is um whenever trust feels like it's
say is um whenever trust feels like it's so lost that there's no way to to
so lost that there's no way to to recover it and get that back. That can
recover it and get that back. That can be difficult uh for maintaining a a
be difficult uh for maintaining a a relationship.
relationship. As I'm listening to you, I'm like,
As I'm listening to you, I'm like, you're right. Why do I ignore those
you're right. Why do I ignore those things and stay in it? Work harder.
things and stay in it? Work harder. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard because I
Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard because I know, you know, when we see these videos
know, you know, when we see these videos and on social media and it's like, uh,
and on social media and it's like, uh, nine signs she's toxic or nine signs,
nine signs she's toxic or nine signs, you know, one thing I want to say about
you know, one thing I want to say about the whole toxic thing, um, is sometimes
the whole toxic thing, um, is sometimes it's not that this person's so toxic,
it's not that this person's so toxic, even though there are people with with
even though there are people with with ongoing toxic behaviors, but sometimes
ongoing toxic behaviors, but sometimes it's just our dynamic. Maybe it's not
it's just our dynamic. Maybe it's not her, it's just there's something that
her, it's just there's something that happens when we come together and it's
happens when we come together and it's not clicking. I don't like who I am and
not clicking. I don't like who I am and and something's weird here, but all your
and something's weird here, but all your other friends
other friends that works for you. They think you're
that works for you. They think you're delightful. That's awesome. But there's
delightful. That's awesome. But there's something about our makeup, like quite
something about our makeup, like quite literally our chemistry that when we
literally our chemistry that when we come together, it doesn't work. And so,
come together, it doesn't work. And so, I think it goes back to what we said
I think it goes back to what we said earlier. It's easier when you can easily
earlier. It's easier when you can easily identify the villain to separate and
identify the villain to separate and make sense of what's happening. It's
make sense of what's happening. It's harder to just say, I just think it's
harder to just say, I just think it's us. I don't enjoy it and I don't like
us. I don't enjoy it and I don't like who I become. Um, and that's harder
who I become. Um, and that's harder sometimes because there's more nuance
sometimes because there's more nuance and gray area. Yes. And it requires you
and gray area. Yes. And it requires you to take responsibility for your part in
to take responsibility for your part in it. And what I love about that is that I
it. And what I love about that is that I hate it when people label other people
hate it when people label other people toxic. There's behavior that's toxic,
toxic. There's behavior that's toxic, but the fingerpointing and the ghosting
but the fingerpointing and the ghosting and the just dropping a friend without a
and the just dropping a friend without a conversation, in my opinion, that's a
conversation, in my opinion, that's a sign that you're the one that's immature
sign that you're the one that's immature and engaging in toxic behavior. That not
and engaging in toxic behavior. That not actually trying to work it out or have
actually trying to work it out or have the conversation that there's something
the conversation that there's something off with us. Let's take a little space.
off with us. Let's take a little space. And as I've gotten older, my opinion
And as I've gotten older, my opinion about friendship ending has changed. I
about friendship ending has changed. I just feel like friendships are very
just feel like friendships are very flexible. They come, they go. If
flexible. They come, they go. If something ends at some point in the
something ends at some point in the future, a decade from now, who knows
future, a decade from now, who knows what's going to happen and how life
what's going to happen and how life might bring us back together. But
might bring us back together. But leaving the door open for people to
leaving the door open for people to change and for you to change and for
change and for you to change and for circumstances to change has really
circumstances to change has really helped me in being a better friend, in
helped me in being a better friend, in being more compassionate, in seeing that
being more compassionate, in seeing that in any relationship, I own at least 50%
in any relationship, I own at least 50% of what's happening here because my
of what's happening here because my energy is just as powerful as the other
energy is just as powerful as the other person's energy. And as I change, things
person's energy. And as I change, things are going to change. You know, one of
are going to change. You know, one of the things I really loved about your
the things I really loved about your book, and I cannot wait to share this
book, and I cannot wait to share this conversation, especially with my
conversation, especially with my daughters. I would love to talk about
daughters. I would love to talk about having a friendship with somebody who's
having a friendship with somebody who's controlling or possessive because I do
controlling or possessive because I do think that's a predominantly female
think that's a predominantly female thing in friendship. What do you do if
thing in friendship. What do you do if you've got that friend who has your
you've got that friend who has your location and you're at the dinner with
location and you're at the dinner with somebody else and all of a sudden you
somebody else and all of a sudden you get that text, hey, I see that you're
get that text, hey, I see that you're right by me. What's up? like, "How come
right by me. What's up? like, "How come you didn't call me? What are you doing?"
you didn't call me? What are you doing?" You're like, "Oh my god." Like, dude.
You're like, "Oh my god." Like, dude. Yeah. I think a lot of what lives up
Yeah. I think a lot of what lives up under that controlling nature is anxiety
under that controlling nature is anxiety and anxious attachment, which women are
and anxious attachment, which women are um more susceptible to. And so, I'm
um more susceptible to. And so, I'm anxious about you being away and where
anxious about you being away and where did you go and what do you think and
did you go and what do you think and what's going on? And so, you know, when
what's going on? And so, you know, when we have a friend who's controlling us,
we have a friend who's controlling us, controlling decisions we make, she's
controlling decisions we make, she's anxious over the fact that you're making
anxious over the fact that you're making decisions that are not what she would
decisions that are not what she would make. You're doing what she doesn't want
make. You're doing what she doesn't want you to do. There's a lot of anxiety
you to do. There's a lot of anxiety about not being able to handle or manage
about not being able to handle or manage or predict the outcome. Yeah. And having
or predict the outcome. Yeah. And having that tendency needs to get in check
that tendency needs to get in check because it's hard to be in relationship
because it's hard to be in relationship with the person who needs you to think
with the person who needs you to think like they do, be where they need you to
like they do, be where they need you to be, be available when they want you to
be, be available when they want you to be a beable. Because the whole thing
be a beable. Because the whole thing about healthy friendships is there's
about healthy friendships is there's space for us to be together and that
space for us to be together and that interdependence and there's also space
interdependence and there's also space for me to be myself and also and always
for me to be myself and also and always trying to do that dance between us and
trying to do that dance between us and our togetherness and me and my
our togetherness and me and my individuality. But when you have people
individuality. But when you have people who begin to suffocate that part,
who begin to suffocate that part, there's there's going to be an issue.
there's there's going to be an issue. Danielle, what do you do when you have a
Danielle, what do you do when you have a controlling friend and they're
controlling friend and they're controlling nature is really starting to
controlling nature is really starting to get annoying? It helps to package it as
get annoying? It helps to package it as an invitation and not an accusation. Oh,
an invitation and not an accusation. Oh, wait a minute. An
wait a minute. An invitation, not an accusation. How do I
invitation, not an accusation. How do I do that? So, because it's easy to say,
do that? So, because it's easy to say, you know, you're texting me all the
you know, you're texting me all the time. You have to stop or I'm
time. You have to stop or I'm overwhelmed, right? So, I'm going to
overwhelmed, right? So, I'm going to invite you to participate in the way
invite you to participate in the way that feels good to me. So, maybe instead
that feels good to me. So, maybe instead I'll say, "Hey, I know you like to check
I'll say, "Hey, I know you like to check in uh throughout the day, but I think
in uh throughout the day, but I think it's best for me to check in on the
it's best for me to check in on the weekends." Like, I love our little phone
weekends." Like, I love our little phone calls on the weekend. Do you want to do
calls on the weekend. Do you want to do Saturdays or Sundays? That's an
Saturdays or Sundays? That's an affirmative boundary on where would you
affirmative boundary on where would you when would you like to talk? Because for
when would you like to talk? Because for me, it's overwhelming, right? Um and
me, it's overwhelming, right? Um and that's me kind of gracefully moving you
that's me kind of gracefully moving you toward what I need you to do. I you just
toward what I need you to do. I you just literally I just felt like his class in
literally I just felt like his class in session with Professor Bayer Jackson. I
session with Professor Bayer Jackson. I mean I just felt like a teacher who sort
mean I just felt like a teacher who sort of redirects you with a smile
of redirects you with a smile which and and you know that's a part of
which and and you know that's a part of it too is sometimes playfulness when I
it too is sometimes playfulness when I hear people talk about conflict. It
hear people talk about conflict. It sounds really scary and and serious.
sounds really scary and and serious. That's why I avoid it. Yeah. There.
That's why I avoid it. Yeah. There. Well, that makes sense. I got up with a
Well, that makes sense. I got up with a fake smile even though I'm jealous of
fake smile even though I'm jealous of your whole life. you know, where
your whole life. you know, where appropriate, we can address some things
appropriate, we can address some things with playfulness. And I think it's wise
with playfulness. And I think it's wise to do that sometimes because it helps us
to do that sometimes because it helps us to relax, right? If you're being
to relax, right? If you're being playful, it shows that there's no threat
playful, it shows that there's no threat around because we can be playful. You
around because we can be playful. You can't be playful and feel in danger.
can't be playful and feel in danger. Okay. Well, here's another one. Here's a
Okay. Well, here's another one. Here's a big one. You've been invited to
big one. You've been invited to something
something and your friend has not. So, what do I
and your friend has not. So, what do I do
do if I know this group is not going to
if I know this group is not going to invite this person? That's always really
invite this person? That's always really tricky. And we have to take into account
tricky. And we have to take into account things like um I know that they are not
things like um I know that they are not friends but they're inviting me. So you
friends but they're inviting me. So you know and you're trying to figure out how
know and you're trying to figure out how do I maintain a sense of loyalty but
do I maintain a sense of loyalty but also being it's really tricky. I I'll
also being it's really tricky. I I'll say this to the person who's being
say this to the person who's being controlling. If I may speak to her um
controlling. If I may speak to her um there are a couple things that have to
there are a couple things that have to happen so that people don't experience
happen so that people don't experience you that way. M one is you've got to
you that way. M one is you've got to figure out the importance of having
figure out the importance of having multiple friends because you might
multiple friends because you might unintentionally be be putting pressure
unintentionally be be putting pressure on that one friend to be your everything
on that one friend to be your everything and she wants to be so many things to
and she wants to be so many things to you but it's not fair. So how can you
you but it's not fair. So how can you broaden your friendships? The second
broaden your friendships? The second thing you have got to figure out if you
thing you have got to figure out if you find yourself being anxious and
find yourself being anxious and controlling is what is the fear? What am
controlling is what is the fear? What am I afraid of if I loosened my grip? Am I
I afraid of if I loosened my grip? Am I scared I would be forgotten? Am I scared
scared I would be forgotten? Am I scared I might be left behind? There's
I might be left behind? There's something deeper there that's got you so
something deeper there that's got you so uh fixated on this friend. Um and I
uh fixated on this friend. Um and I think we have to kind of look at those
think we have to kind of look at those things because it's going to be really
things because it's going to be really difficult to be in relationship with
difficult to be in relationship with other people. If that's something that
other people. If that's something that begins to take over, we've got to get it
begins to take over, we've got to get it in check. And I I sympathize with you uh
in check. And I I sympathize with you uh because you know uh friendship stirs up
because you know uh friendship stirs up so much. you're bringing so much of your
so much. you're bringing so much of your personal stuff to the table. And we're
personal stuff to the table. And we're working it out in the friction of
working it out in the friction of friendship. But if you want healthy
friendship. But if you want healthy friendships, if you want to be deeply
friendships, if you want to be deeply known and you want to deeply know
known and you want to deeply know others, you have to find a way to offer
others, you have to find a way to offer space to people to be themselves and
space to people to be themselves and trust that they still love you even if
trust that they still love you even if they're not around. Um, and that can be
they're not around. Um, and that can be really hard, but something to maybe work
really hard, but something to maybe work through or get support with so that you
through or get support with so that you can enjoy a healthy connection. I love
can enjoy a healthy connection. I love your perspective on this. I'm
your perspective on this. I'm curious as an expert and researcher on
curious as an expert and researcher on friendship. How do you foster long-term
friendship. How do you foster long-term friendships with women, especially as
friendships with women, especially as you're moving through different phases
you're moving through different phases of life? What's the research say? Yeah.
of life? What's the research say? Yeah. So, life transitions are actually a big
So, life transitions are actually a big reason why women's friendships end. And
reason why women's friendships end. And I also believe that there are a lot more
I also believe that there are a lot more uh prominent transitions in a woman's
uh prominent transitions in a woman's life. And it becomes difficult sometimes
life. And it becomes difficult sometimes to stay together during those
to stay together during those disruptions throughout the life cycle.
disruptions throughout the life cycle. So her getting married and then getting
So her getting married and then getting really really involved with that spouse
really really involved with that spouse and now you're like, "Oh, what are we
and now you're like, "Oh, what are we doing here?" You know, we're not
doing here?" You know, we're not spending time together. Her having a
spending time together. Her having a baby and now the topic of conversation
baby and now the topic of conversation is is butt paste and bottles and I'm not
is is butt paste and bottles and I'm not interested. Right? So it can be hard to
interested. Right? So it can be hard to show up in those ways. I think one thing
show up in those ways. I think one thing that we have to do is give ourselves
that we have to do is give ourselves grace because we've never been friends
grace because we've never been friends like this before. M we've never had to
like this before. M we've never had to be friends with you having to also have
be friends with you having to also have this little baby you have to keep alive
this little baby you have to keep alive at home. So the first thing to honor
at home. So the first thing to honor okay we've never done this let's get to
okay we've never done this let's get to the business of figuring it out. Um I
the business of figuring it out. Um I also see people experience so much
also see people experience so much dissatisfaction because you're comparing
dissatisfaction because you're comparing your present to how it used to be and
your present to how it used to be and that chapter is no more or it won't
that chapter is no more or it won't return for a long time right while this
return for a long time right while this new season is in. And I have people feel
new season is in. And I have people feel a lot of uh disappointment around that.
a lot of uh disappointment around that. It's not like it used to be. It's not
It's not like it used to be. It's not like it's used to be. Well, we know
like it's used to be. Well, we know again that friendships change, but when
again that friendships change, but when it happens, it's really difficult to
it happens, it's really difficult to adapt. Um, and then the last thing I
adapt. Um, and then the last thing I would say if you feel a transition
would say if you feel a transition coming on with your friendship is it's
coming on with your friendship is it's okay to say it because that takes a lot
okay to say it because that takes a lot of uh power away from the fear. So, to
of uh power away from the fear. So, to say to a friend like, "Listen, I know
say to a friend like, "Listen, I know you're booed up now. I love that for
you're booed up now. I love that for you, but can we still do FaceTimes on
you, but can we still do FaceTimes on Fridays because I miss you and I don't
Fridays because I miss you and I don't see you like I used to." And I think
see you like I used to." And I think that feels scary because it's more
that feels scary because it's more vulnerable. It's easier to say, "Oh, got
vulnerable. It's easier to say, "Oh, got a man and forgot all about me." It's
a man and forgot all about me." It's harder to say, "I really miss you and
harder to say, "I really miss you and I'm I'm happy for you. I love how happy
I'm I'm happy for you. I love how happy he makes you, but I miss us. What can we
he makes you, but I miss us. What can we do about that?" And it kind of takes the
do about that?" And it kind of takes the power out of the fear of what happens
power out of the fear of what happens next with us during this transition. One
next with us during this transition. One of the things that I love that you've
of the things that I love that you've said a couple times is first of all, you
said a couple times is first of all, you normalize how come it is to not have a
normalize how come it is to not have a quote best friend, but to encourage us
quote best friend, but to encourage us all to look to the greater group and the
all to look to the greater group and the collective to provide all the different
collective to provide all the different things that we need from friendship to
things that we need from friendship to support to someone to talk about like
support to someone to talk about like global warming, like whatever the issues
global warming, like whatever the issues you care about, somebody to have fun
you care about, somebody to have fun with that you don't just rely on one
with that you don't just rely on one person. And one thing I'd love to know
person. And one thing I'd love to know is how can someone feel closeness to a
is how can someone feel closeness to a new female friend? Uh, well, the first
new female friend? Uh, well, the first thing I'm going to say is look at those
thing I'm going to say is look at those three affinities of female friendship.
three affinities of female friendship. How can you introduce those from the
How can you introduce those from the very beginning? How can I highlight our
very beginning? How can I highlight our similarities and play into that? How can
similarities and play into that? How can I offer tangible demonstrations of
I offer tangible demonstrations of support? How can I make it safe here for
support? How can I make it safe here for us to share with one another? Those are
us to share with one another? Those are things that help us to feel close in
things that help us to feel close in those friendships. And then again, and I
those friendships. And then again, and I know this continues to be a theme in
know this continues to be a theme in what I'm saying is you can announce it.
what I'm saying is you can announce it. I I we've got to get permission to
I I we've got to get permission to announce it. You can say to a friend,
announce it. You can say to a friend, um, I love getting to know more and more
um, I love getting to know more and more about you. Or like every time we get
about you. Or like every time we get together, I'm learning more about you
together, I'm learning more about you and I'm loving it. I'm loving getting to
and I'm loving it. I'm loving getting to know you. I mean, sometimes saying it
know you. I mean, sometimes saying it upfront helps the other person to buy in
upfront helps the other person to buy in because so often we wonder, do they like
because so often we wonder, do they like me? Do they not? Like, are they as
me? Do they not? Like, are they as invested as I am? So, let me remove the
invested as I am? So, let me remove the mystery. I really enjoy you. Do you want
mystery. I really enjoy you. Do you want to do this more often? And sometimes
to do this more often? And sometimes making it plain uh I think kind of
making it plain uh I think kind of relieves that pressure, the mystery, the
relieves that pressure, the mystery, the game playing, right? I initiated last
game playing, right? I initiated last time, but is that too much? There
time, but is that too much? There there's no time for that. So I think
there's no time for that. So I think even explicitly expressing to somebody,
even explicitly expressing to somebody, I'm so excited to get to know you more.
I'm so excited to get to know you more. I'm always learning a little something
I'm always learning a little something every time we get together. I think that
every time we get together. I think that sometimes can expedite the process of
sometimes can expedite the process of being close friends. Yes. You also had
being close friends. Yes. You also had interesting research about how women's
interesting research about how women's friendships in particular when you're
friendships in particular when you're younger are a huge predictor for how
younger are a huge predictor for how your relationship with your significant
your relationship with your significant other is going to play out. Can you say
other is going to play out. Can you say more about that? Yeah. So, we tend to
more about that? Yeah. So, we tend to put friendship into the margins of our
put friendship into the margins of our lives and see it as like this extra
lives and see it as like this extra recreational thing that's non-essential,
recreational thing that's non-essential, but it really is. Um, and it has
but it really is. Um, and it has benefits that we might not even suspect.
benefits that we might not even suspect. Um, and there is a study that found that
Um, and there is a study that found that the number one predictor of the success
the number one predictor of the success of your romantic adult relationships is
of your romantic adult relationships is how well you did with your same-sex
how well you did with your same-sex friends in adolescence. Really likely
friends in adolescence. Really likely because things do tend to be segregated
because things do tend to be segregated by gender in school. You know, girls go
by gender in school. You know, girls go over here, boys go over here. I'm mostly
over here, boys go over here. I'm mostly with girls, you know, in school in these
with girls, you know, in school in these different groups and in class. That's
different groups and in class. That's where I'm developing social skills. I'm
where I'm developing social skills. I'm learning to negotiate. I'm learning how
learning to negotiate. I'm learning how to communicate. How do I show up as a
to communicate. How do I show up as a friend? I'm learning that here. So, if I
friend? I'm learning that here. So, if I struggled with that in these formative
struggled with that in these formative years, it's likely that those same
years, it's likely that those same skills that I need to have a successful
skills that I need to have a successful romantic relationship, some of that
romantic relationship, some of that stuff's going to travel with me. So,
stuff's going to travel with me. So, these are, you know, it's an important
these are, you know, it's an important time to figure out with other women when
time to figure out with other women when we're young, how do we do this? Because
we're young, how do we do this? Because there are surprising ways that it
there are surprising ways that it impacts everything else. For those of us
impacts everything else. For those of us that look back on those years and go,
that look back on those years and go, "Oh god, I was terrible at this.
"Oh god, I was terrible at this. I was the jealous competitive oneuper
I was the jealous competitive oneuper gossipy we can change right I'm living
gossipy we can change right I'm living proof hey that you can and I mean okay
proof hey that you can and I mean okay the same way we get all these books to
the same way we get all these books to be a better parent to be a better wife
be a better parent to be a better wife like that's that's awesome this can be
like that's that's awesome this can be learned too and and this is what I mean
learned too and and this is what I mean about like giving people more optimism
about like giving people more optimism there's something where we feel like
there's something where we feel like well this should be organic why can't I
well this should be organic why can't I get this right but we aren't learning
get this right but we aren't learning about how to show up as a better friend
about how to show up as a better friend because we feel like it should be
because we feel like it should be something that's just natural. And the
something that's just natural. And the extent of the conversation at one period
extent of the conversation at one period about friendship is, you know, it was
about friendship is, you know, it was you either have friends or you don't and
you either have friends or you don't and if you don't, what's wrong with you?
if you don't, what's wrong with you? There's so much more to that
There's so much more to that conversation. So, yes, get the book
conversation. So, yes, get the book around how to be a better friend or to
around how to be a better friend or to get over your anxious attachment so you
get over your anxious attachment so you can enjoy healthier relationships. Yeah,
can enjoy healthier relationships. Yeah, figure that out. uh especially in
figure that out. uh especially in adulthood. Yeah. Because the scripts
adulthood. Yeah. Because the scripts that worked for you in friendship at 18
that worked for you in friendship at 18 and can work at 45. At some point I have
and can work at 45. At some point I have to sit down and get to the business of
to sit down and get to the business of figuring out how do I do this? How do I
figuring out how do I do this? How do I make time for friends with my other
make time for friends with my other obligations? How do I release you know
obligations? How do I release you know my anxiousness cuz it that's been a
my anxiousness cuz it that's been a theme in my friendships and it hasn't
theme in my friendships and it hasn't gone well. How do I set boundaries
gone well. How do I set boundaries without feeling like an awful person?
without feeling like an awful person? We've got to get to the business of
We've got to get to the business of figuring that out to enjoy the kind of
figuring that out to enjoy the kind of connections that we're we're dreaming
connections that we're we're dreaming about. What I love about your book,
about. What I love about your book, Fighting for Our Friendships, is that
Fighting for Our Friendships, is that you not only go straight at this, and
you not only go straight at this, and you unpack all the things that we, or
you unpack all the things that we, or I'll speak for myself, I got profoundly
I'll speak for myself, I got profoundly wrong about navigating female
wrong about navigating female friendships. It also explains what's
friendships. It also explains what's missing when you start to feel conflict
missing when you start to feel conflict and frustration. I love the example that
and frustration. I love the example that you give in your book and it's on page
you give in your book and it's on page 110 and you need to send this episode
110 and you need to send this episode and conversation and Danielle's
and conversation and Danielle's brilliance to every person in your life
brilliance to every person in your life that is getting married right now
that is getting married right now because let me read this to you. You're
because let me read this to you. You're talking about this sort of mismatch
talking about this sort of mismatch where you think the friendship is more
where you think the friendship is more important than it is to the other
important than it is to the other person. I see this play out most often
person. I see this play out most often in bridal parties. Several brides to be
in bridal parties. Several brides to be or would be maids of honor come to me
or would be maids of honor come to me for the sensitive dilemma of bridal
for the sensitive dilemma of bridal party selection. There's tension when
party selection. There's tension when one friend assumes she'll be asked to be
one friend assumes she'll be asked to be a bridesmaid, but realizes the bride has
a bridesmaid, but realizes the bride has no intention of asking her. Brides come
no intention of asking her. Brides come to me with tearful pleas to help them
to me with tearful pleas to help them figure out how do I choose and then how
figure out how do I choose and then how do I deliver the news to those who won't
do I deliver the news to those who won't be included.
be included. When somebody has a wedding, why is
When somebody has a wedding, why is there so much conflict and drama inside
there so much conflict and drama inside people's friend groups? Having a bridal
people's friend groups? Having a bridal party is probably the only time aside
party is probably the only time aside from the MySpace top eight where you
from the MySpace top eight where you have to put your hierarchy on
have to put your hierarchy on display. So, if I'm going through our
display. So, if I'm going through our friendship assuming that we're on the
friendship assuming that we're on the same level and I'm not chosen as a
same level and I'm not chosen as a bridesmaid, I'm not chosen as the maid
bridesmaid, I'm not chosen as the maid of honor and here I am thinking we're
of honor and here I am thinking we're best friends. For a lot of women, they
best friends. For a lot of women, they do say it's hard for them to recover
do say it's hard for them to recover after that with that new information
after that with that new information that we're not as close as I thought we
that we're not as close as I thought we were because I've been going around
were because I've been going around thinking that we see each other the
thinking that we see each other the same. And then when you have to make a
same. And then when you have to make a public declaration of your hierarchy of
public declaration of your hierarchy of friends, I'm not up there. it can be
friends, I'm not up there. it can be really hard to digest.
really hard to digest. What's your advice?
What's your advice? Well, um the first is to ask yourself um
Well, um the first is to ask yourself um about the history and the evidence you
about the history and the evidence you have in that friendship. Does she show
have in that friendship. Does she show up? Is she attentive? If I need support,
up? Is she attentive? If I need support, she's there. And can I be okay with
she's there. And can I be okay with that? Some women can't. And some will
that? Some women can't. And some will say, you know what, she's a good friend.
say, you know what, she's a good friend. We're good friends to each other. I can
We're good friends to each other. I can find a way to be okay with this. Right?
find a way to be okay with this. Right? So looking at what does the friendship
So looking at what does the friendship offer me even though I might not be her
offer me even though I might not be her top tier friend and to the woman who has
top tier friend and to the woman who has to make these bridal party selections
to make these bridal party selections and feels really nervous about it to
and feels really nervous about it to have those conversations in a way that
have those conversations in a way that still offers reassurance to the friends
still offers reassurance to the friends who aren't involved because the number
who aren't involved because the number one question they're going to have is am
one question they're going to have is am I more invested than you? Do I not
I more invested than you? Do I not matter? Do you not care? That's going to
matter? Do you not care? That's going to be at the heart of that rejection that
be at the heart of that rejection that they experience. So, as much as I can
they experience. So, as much as I can tenderly assure you that this is totally
tenderly assure you that this is totally a logistical thing and it has nothing to
a logistical thing and it has nothing to do with me and you, the better because
do with me and you, the better because those are the things we're going to be
those are the things we're going to be questioning after you make that
questioning after you make that selection. Gotcha. And by logistical,
selection. Gotcha. And by logistical, how do you not cuz literally you're
how do you not cuz literally you're like, "Well, look, my husband only has
like, "Well, look, my husband only has like two friends. So, I can't have 17 of
like two friends. So, I can't have 17 of you standing there. My sister will kill
you standing there. My sister will kill me if it's not just her." Truly. Like, I
me if it's not just her." Truly. Like, I I know how expensive this is. You've
I know how expensive this is. You've been in 17 weddings this summer and I've
been in 17 weddings this summer and I've just decided to keep the bridal party
just decided to keep the bridal party small 100%. But providing that more
small 100%. But providing that more aerial view of the decisions you have to
aerial view of the decisions you have to make and the things you're accounting
make and the things you're accounting for can help people to understand a
for can help people to understand a little bit and to depersonalize a little
little bit and to depersonalize a little bit if you can give them that overview.
bit if you can give them that overview. So I've seen it be helpful in that way
So I've seen it be helpful in that way or you can scratch the bridal party
or you can scratch the bridal party altogether which I see more and more
altogether which I see more and more people leaning toward because of the
people leaning toward because of the other things that it you know brings
other things that it you know brings into the friendship. You also shared
into the friendship. You also shared research in your book that I've never
research in your book that I've never seen before that women replace about
seen before that women replace about half of their friends every seven years.
half of their friends every seven years. Yeah. So, men and women. Um, yeah.
Yeah. So, men and women. Um, yeah. There's research that finds that we
There's research that finds that we replace half of our friends every seven
replace half of our friends every seven years. I hope that that makes people
years. I hope that that makes people feel a little less ashamed if they have
feel a little less ashamed if they have friendships that don't work out because
friendships that don't work out because what that says to me is that there's
what that says to me is that there's this natural pruning that happens
this natural pruning that happens throughout your life. I also hope that
throughout your life. I also hope that that has people release any shame around
that has people release any shame around needing to make new friends because I
needing to make new friends because I hear people say, "I'm out here making
hear people say, "I'm out here making friends at 42. I should have had all my
friends at 42. I should have had all my friends from high school really because
friends from high school really because I know some of the friends I had in high
I know some of the friends I had in high school. It would not be appropriate for
school. It would not be appropriate for us to still be friends. It wouldn't make
us to still be friends. It wouldn't make sense to where I am right now or the
sense to where I am right now or the values I have right now." And so if we
values I have right now." And so if we are, you know, dropping or shedding new
are, you know, dropping or shedding new friends every seven years, that means we
friends every seven years, that means we need to be picking up new ones cuz what
need to be picking up new ones cuz what does that churn rate look like? How am I
does that churn rate look like? How am I positioning myself to invite new
positioning myself to invite new friendships into my life? So I hope it
friendships into my life? So I hope it shows us that we will always be having
shows us that we will always be having to make new friends. When I hear that
to make new friends. When I hear that research, I was so encouraged because
research, I was so encouraged because I'm like, "Oh my gosh, it's a sign
I'm like, "Oh my gosh, it's a sign you're growing." Yeah. That's a sign
you're growing." Yeah. That's a sign that you're like changing and so are the
that you're like changing and so are the people in your life and that's cool.
people in your life and that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that visual that
Yeah. Yeah. And I love that visual that has been so widely shared. I have no
has been so widely shared. I have no idea who to credit for this of the fact
idea who to credit for this of the fact that there are three types of
that there are three types of friendships. Just think of a huge tree
friendships. Just think of a huge tree and you're the tree and there will be
and you're the tree and there will be tens of thousands of leaves that sprout
tens of thousands of leaves that sprout in different seasons and then wither and
in different seasons and then wither and fall off. And there are branches that
fall off. And there are branches that are very strong that are there through
are very strong that are there through the standing of time, but some will
the standing of time, but some will break due to the weather and the
break due to the weather and the pruning. M and then there are the deep
pruning. M and then there are the deep deep roots that you often don't see but
deep roots that you often don't see but you know are there if you need them that
you know are there if you need them that keep you grounded and strong. And every
keep you grounded and strong. And every one of those aspects of friendship is
one of those aspects of friendship is critical because even the leaves that
critical because even the leaves that are only there for the season, these are
are only there for the season, these are your sorority sisters or your work
your sorority sisters or your work friends or the people that you were a
friends or the people that you were a young mom with or friends that you were
young mom with or friends that you were on a soccer team with in high school
on a soccer team with in high school that they were there for a season and
that they were there for a season and while they were there they absorbed the
while they were there they absorbed the sunlight and they gave you energy and
sunlight and they gave you energy and they were part of what made you you. And
they were part of what made you you. And then the season changes in your life and
then the season changes in your life and those friendships wither and fall to the
those friendships wither and fall to the ground. That doesn't mean they weren't
ground. That doesn't mean they weren't wonderful. It doesn't mean actually that
wonderful. It doesn't mean actually that they're not still there with you in
they're not still there with you in spirit. Mhm. But that you are growing,
spirit. Mhm. But that you are growing, which means new leaves are going to
which means new leaves are going to come. Yeah. New branches are going to
come. Yeah. New branches are going to grow and those roots that are meant to
grow and those roots that are meant to be there are going to
be there are going to be strong even when they're not right in
be strong even when they're not right in front of your face. I mean, some of my
front of your face. I mean, some of my most favorite people, I'm so mad at them
most favorite people, I'm so mad at them because they don't live anywhere near
because they don't live anywhere near me. And what I'm also realizing is maybe
me. And what I'm also realizing is maybe that's a good thing. Maybe that's a good
that's a good thing. Maybe that's a good thing because I'm a very deep person and
thing because I'm a very deep person and if I lived next to you, I'd be up in
if I lived next to you, I'd be up in your grill all the time. You'd probably
your grill all the time. You'd probably think I was clingy and possessive and
think I was clingy and possessive and annoying. So, it's probably better I
annoying. So, it's probably better I only see you once a quarter. Yeah.
only see you once a quarter. Yeah. Danielle, you've shared so much with us.
Danielle, you've shared so much with us. I cannot wait for the person listening
I cannot wait for the person listening to really take all this wisdom and
to really take all this wisdom and research and shift how they're showing
research and shift how they're showing up and shift how they're thinking about
up and shift how they're thinking about friends, both past and present and
friends, both past and present and future. And I also can't wait
future. And I also can't wait to see how many women they share this
to see how many women they share this with in their lives and and young women.
with in their lives and and young women. If there's just one thing from
If there's just one thing from absolutely everything you shared with us
absolutely everything you shared with us that you would love for the person who
that you would love for the person who is
is listening to do, what would it be? I
listening to do, what would it be? I want them to consider that the source of
want them to consider that the source of your hurting could also be the source of
your hurting could also be the source of your healing. And I know that there is a
your healing. And I know that there is a lot of hurt that's probably happened
lot of hurt that's probably happened with other women and sometimes we close
with other women and sometimes we close oursel off to female friendships because
oursel off to female friendships because of that. But allowing ourselves to
of that. But allowing ourselves to invite the love of other women helps to
invite the love of other women helps to do some of that healing to give
do some of that healing to give ourselves the chance to see that women
ourselves the chance to see that women are tender and supportive and gracious
are tender and supportive and gracious and strong. Um I think helps to start to
and strong. Um I think helps to start to be an overlay and starts to gradually
be an overlay and starts to gradually erase some of the hurt we have from
erase some of the hurt we have from before. But the restoration lies in the
before. But the restoration lies in the courage to position ourselves um to try
courage to position ourselves um to try again. I love that. So Danielle, what
again. I love that. So Danielle, what are your parting words? I think this
are your parting words? I think this conversation is important for the person
conversation is important for the person who finds themselves about to grow cold
who finds themselves about to grow cold or
or cynical to friendship
cynical to friendship itself to their personal future um
itself to their personal future um because they can't make sense of
because they can't make sense of something right now or because they're
something right now or because they're starting to feel hopeless. And I'm
starting to feel hopeless. And I'm hoping that this equips them with
hoping that this equips them with language to describe what's going on and
language to describe what's going on and with hope for the future. Um because it
with hope for the future. Um because it should be exciting to know that you
should be exciting to know that you could meet your best friend in the next
could meet your best friend in the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. It could be
5, 10, 15, 20 years. It could be exciting to know that you might have
exciting to know that you might have several best friends over the next 5 10
several best friends over the next 5 10 15 20 years. But as soon as we resign
15 20 years. But as soon as we resign ourselves to believing that how it is
ourselves to believing that how it is right now is how it will always be, then
right now is how it will always be, then we've lost. And so I think maintaining
we've lost. And so I think maintaining that hope is really, really important.
that hope is really, really important. So much of the conversation we have
So much of the conversation we have around friendship is about this
around friendship is about this insulated relationship, just me and you.
insulated relationship, just me and you. And we need that. We need close
And we need that. We need close friendships. But when we think about the
friendships. But when we think about the fabric of society, it starts with me and
fabric of society, it starts with me and you. It starts with me being open to
you. It starts with me being open to sharing with you, having positive
sharing with you, having positive experiences with you, and then you go
experiences with you, and then you go and share that with somebody else. It's
and share that with somebody else. It's a ripple effect, right? It starts with
a ripple effect, right? It starts with me being supportive of you, and you now
me being supportive of you, and you now having a deeper belief in yourself
having a deeper belief in yourself because I affirmed you and spoke words
because I affirmed you and spoke words of life into you as your friend. That is
of life into you as your friend. That is literally what fuels society and keeps
literally what fuels society and keeps us trusting one another and having
us trusting one another and having goodwill toward one another. But it
goodwill toward one another. But it starts right here. And so I I get really
starts right here. And so I I get really sad when I hear people who are
sad when I hear people who are discouraged about friendship. Yeah. And
discouraged about friendship. Yeah. And start to close themselves off. Yeah.
start to close themselves off. Yeah. Because when we talk about from an
Because when we talk about from an aerial view needing more trust in
aerial view needing more trust in community from a larger perspective, it
community from a larger perspective, it starts right here. And so I feel like if
starts right here. And so I feel like if we want a healthier, more hopeful future
we want a healthier, more hopeful future as a society, it starts with me being
as a society, it starts with me being open uh to friendships, personal
open uh to friendships, personal friendships today. And I I I would love
friendships today. And I I I would love for us to keep making that connection.
for us to keep making that connection. Well, I can see the
Well, I can see the emotion when you talk about that. And I
emotion when you talk about that. And I know I feel it. I know the person
know I feel it. I know the person listening to this feels that
listening to this feels that fear of growing isolation and
fear of growing isolation and discouragement in people's hearts. And
discouragement in people's hearts. And what I know is that women have the
what I know is that women have the ability to change anything.
ability to change anything. And we cannot allow our hearts to grow
And we cannot allow our hearts to grow cold. And this is a moment where we need
cold. And this is a moment where we need to turn toward each other and rely on
to turn toward each other and rely on each other and support each other. And
each other and support each other. And what I love about everything that you
what I love about everything that you have done in your work and in this book,
have done in your work and in this book, Danielle, is that I truly understand and
Danielle, is that I truly understand and feel more
feel more compassionate about the little me who
compassionate about the little me who struggled with
struggled with friendship. I feel understanding and
friendship. I feel understanding and compassionate as a mother to daughters,
compassionate as a mother to daughters, about how difficult it is, but how it
about how difficult it is, but how it doesn't have to be. And your framework
doesn't have to be. And your framework offers us a way to see what's happening
offers us a way to see what's happening through the lens of both this is why
through the lens of both this is why female friendships are so unbelievably
female friendships are so unbelievably powerful and rich and deep and important
powerful and rich and deep and important and it's also why they can feel so
and it's also why they can feel so fraught with confusing and hurtful
fraught with confusing and hurtful behavior. Yeah. And everything that you
behavior. Yeah. And everything that you shared which is so amazing is it comes
shared which is so amazing is it comes through a lens of both understanding
through a lens of both understanding matterof fact compassion and
matterof fact compassion and empowerment. It is fully within your
empowerment. It is fully within your power as you listen to this to create
power as you listen to this to create better friendships. It's fully within
better friendships. It's fully within your power to leave the door open. It's
your power to leave the door open. It's fully within your power to lean toward
fully within your power to lean toward the people that disappoint you or upset
the people that disappoint you or upset you or that trigger jealousy or lack in
you or that trigger jealousy or lack in you and actually talk about it. that the
you and actually talk about it. that the connection that you deserve and that
connection that you deserve and that society needs that happens one person at
society needs that happens one person at a time is something that you can create.
a time is something that you can create. And now that you've shared all this with
And now that you've shared all this with us, we can. And so, thank you. Thank
us, we can. And so, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for hopping on a plane,
you. Thank you for hopping on a plane, for being here today, for doing this
for being here today, for doing this research, and for sharing it with me and
research, and for sharing it with me and with the person listening. You truly
with the person listening. You truly made a huge difference. Thank you for
made a huge difference. Thank you for having me. Of course. And I also want to
having me. Of course. And I also want to thank you. Thank you for making the time
thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to this. Thank you for sharing
to listen to this. Thank you for sharing this with your sisters, your nieces,
this with your sisters, your nieces, your daughters, your female friends. And
your daughters, your female friends. And how amazing it is it to know that one of
how amazing it is it to know that one of the most important things that creates a
the most important things that creates a meaningful life, which are your
meaningful life, which are your relationships, you have the ability to
relationships, you have the ability to create better ones. And I hope you do.
create better ones. And I hope you do. And in case no one else tells you, I
And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to tell you that I love you. I'm
wanted to tell you that I love you. I'm proud of you for listening or watching
proud of you for listening or watching this. And I believe in you and I believe
this. And I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life.
in your ability to create a better life. And relationships based on the research
And relationships based on the research are what create a better life and
are what create a better life and meaning in your life. So take everything
meaning in your life. So take everything that you just devoured and learned and
that you just devoured and learned and go apply it. All righty. I'll be waiting
go apply it. All righty. I'll be waiting for you in the very next episode to
for you in the very next episode to welcome you in the moment you hit play.
welcome you in the moment you hit play. I'll see you there. And thank you, my
I'll see you there. And thank you, my friend here on YouTube for staying with
friend here on YouTube for staying with me all the way to the end. That's one of
me all the way to the end. That's one of those three affinities, support, being
those three affinities, support, being together. And since I know you're the
together. And since I know you're the kind of person who loves supporting your
kind of person who loves supporting your friends who are supporting you, I got a
friends who are supporting you, I got a favor to ask you. There's something that
favor to ask you. There's something that I would love for you to do. See, my goal
I would love for you to do. See, my goal is that 50% of the people that watch
is that 50% of the people that watch this channel are subscribers. So, do me
this channel are subscribers. So, do me a favor and just hit subscribe. It's
a favor and just hit subscribe. It's free. It's a way that you can tell me
free. It's a way that you can tell me that you love these videos and you love
that you love these videos and you love meeting amazing experts like Danielle
meeting amazing experts like Danielle who wrote this extraordinary book and
who wrote this extraordinary book and came here for free to unpack it all for
came here for free to unpack it all for you and for your friends. And I know
you and for your friends. And I know you're thinking, "Okay, this has been
you're thinking, "Okay, this has been awesome. Mel, what should I watch next?"
awesome. Mel, what should I watch next?" Great question. I think you should check
Great question. I think you should check this out. You're going to love this. And
this out. You're going to love this. And like a good friend, I'm going to be
like a good friend, I'm going to be waiting there to welcome you in the
waiting there to welcome you in the moment you play. I'll see you there.
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